Author Topic: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?  (Read 414718 times)

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Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #2130 on: September 25, 2015, 04:32:49 PM »
So the air is flowing out of the bedroom and instead of going straight across into the lounge area or even into the main bedroom it turns left, left and right and goes into the kitchen? Is that reasonable?



This comes up every so often ; a bit like Orinoco Flow on the piped music in a hotel foyer.
All you need know:
Air moves from areas of high pressure to low pressure.
No building is completely sealed.
Force on door (F) = P x A; where A = door effective area which is variable open to closed (a bit of cos theta creeping in 'ere); P = pressure cause by movement of air dependent upon air velocity.
Effect of "chimney" (cooker hood/) from.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/natural-draught-ventilation-d_122.html
Happy calculating to all and watch your units  8(>((.

oops I forgot this:
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/learning/wind/what-causes-wind

« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 04:39:04 PM by Alice Purjorick »
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline misty

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #2131 on: September 25, 2015, 04:37:26 PM »
If a wind was blowing off the sea, which it is likely to do, which side of the building would it be likely to affect most ?

The predominant wind direction in PdL is NNW
http://wisuki.com/statistics/2500/praia-da-luz

Offline Anna

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #2132 on: September 25, 2015, 04:40:31 PM »
If a wind was blowing off the sea, which it is likely to do, which side of the building would it be likely to affect most ?

Not sure about that jassi.
Would the wind from the sea not be lighter when the tide was going out?
However I will check out the wind conditions, unless someone has them at hand.

ETA
Found...
Wind heading mainly South...................To the children's bedroom?
 
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 04:53:41 PM by Anna »
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline pegasus

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #2133 on: September 25, 2015, 04:56:39 PM »
Is there any information to show which way the draught would have blown ? Was there a prevailing wind in any direction, for example?
Lagos 3rd May 2007 10pm. Wind 14.4km/h from WNW.
Wind direction matches KM's account perfectly.
It's the right direction to slam the door shut after she almost closed it.
And the right direction to blow the curtains in when she reopens the slammed door.
 
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 05:02:28 PM by pegasus »

Offline jassi

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #2134 on: September 25, 2015, 05:00:24 PM »
Thanks, Anna  & pegasus.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Anna

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #2135 on: September 25, 2015, 05:12:03 PM »
Thanks, Anna  & pegasus.

You are most welcome, jassi.
And thank you. Your question has assisted us in exploring other possibilities, re wind direction in relation to 5A.
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline pegasus

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #2136 on: September 25, 2015, 05:26:25 PM »
This comes up every so often ; a bit like Orinoco Flow on the piped music in a hotel foyer.
All you need know:
Air moves from areas of high pressure to low pressure.
No building is completely sealed.
Force on door (F) = P x A; where A = door effective area which is variable open to closed (a bit of cos theta creeping in 'ere); P = pressure cause by movement of air dependent upon air velocity.
Effect of "chimney" (cooker hood/) from.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/natural-draught-ventilation-d_122.html
Happy calculating to all and watch your units  8(>((.

oops I forgot this:
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/learning/wind/what-causes-wind
Thanks Alice. So moving the door to almost closed greatly reduces the opening, which increases the air velocity, which increases the pressure acting on the door. Also moving the door to almost closed increases the effective area of the door on which that increased pressure acts. So the two effects multiply each other proving that a door in a draught that doesn't move when it's wide open, will probably be slammed shut if you almost close it, which means that the witness is telling the truth.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #2137 on: September 25, 2015, 05:27:46 PM »
Just to lob a pebble into the pond; don't forget that buildings and their proximity to each other, locally influence wind direction and speeds by creating different wind paths and causing vortices.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Anna

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #2138 on: September 25, 2015, 05:30:51 PM »
If there is no open fireplace I would imagine there would be central heating of some kind.  Some residents were in occupation all year round and not just in the summer months.

Anna was right about some people attributing similar happenings to the paranormal and who is to say that is not the case as far as their experience is concerned.
However the more down to earth have come up with rational answers which you and others have already brought to the forum.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20150608161309AAJ9Sqc
http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/why-does-the-wind-slam-doors.136658/
https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-door-slam-when-a-window-is-open

Thank you Brietta
You posted some are helpful links.
Getting back to A/C and heating.......
In the photo below. What does it look like to the right of the basket weave, chair. Down low on the wall?

“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #2139 on: September 25, 2015, 05:37:46 PM »
Just to lob a pebble into the pond; don't forget that buildings and their proximity to each other, locally influence wind direction and speeds by creating different wind paths and causing vortices.

It might be beneficial for posters to read up on laminar and turbulent flow .

Offline pegasus

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #2140 on: September 25, 2015, 05:51:52 PM »
Thank you Brietta
You posted some are helpful links.
Getting back to A/C and heating.......
In the photo below. What does it look like to the right of the basket weave, chair. Down low on the wall?


Could be a vent for AC/heat but if so there must be at least one more in another room and where are the controls?

Offline Anna

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #2141 on: September 25, 2015, 05:58:43 PM »
Could be a vent for AC/heat but if so there must be at least one more in another room and where are the controls?

I should think they were in the bedrooms at least. The controls on these small ones are usually on top or down on the left hand corner. We had one small one like that in Tangiers, Cyprus, and possibly Italy.
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #2142 on: September 25, 2015, 06:03:55 PM »
Just to lob a pebble into the pond; don't forget that buildings and their proximity to each other, locally influence wind direction and speeds by creating different wind paths and causing vortices.

so it's impossible to calculate anything

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #2143 on: September 25, 2015, 06:14:16 PM »
Thanks Alice. So moving the door to almost closed greatly reduces the opening, which increases the air velocity, which increases the pressure acting on the door. Also moving the door to almost closed increases the effective area of the door on which that increased pressure acts. So the two effects multiply each other proving that a door in a draught that doesn't move when it's wide open, will probably be slammed shut if you almost close it, which means that the witness is telling the truth.

What I am actually getting around to saying is unless you can replicate precisely all the conditions obtaining at the time and have all the dimensions of the appropriate features then mostly it is going to be guess work.
Someone with a knowledge of meteorology, fluid mechanics and mechanics will make a more informed guess that someone who hasn't.

In so far the door will tend to shut faster the larger the area of it that is exposed to the force the witness is correct. Hence my comment on cos theta.
For the door to "blow" closed there must be an area of high pressure one side of the door and low pressure on the other side QED. For a fixed flow at a fixed upstream pressure the velocity through a small aperture will be greater than the velocity through a large aperture however a smaller aperture will cause more resistance therefore restricting the flow if the upstream pressure remains constant; but just how much air do you calculate is being moved to balance the pressure?
Better stop here it will not tell us much.

Just stick to the high level stuff it is more informative.


« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 06:23:24 PM by Alice Purjorick »
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Brietta

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #2144 on: September 25, 2015, 06:34:38 PM »
What I am actually getting around to saying is unless you can replicate precisely all the conditions obtaining at the time and have all the dimensions of the appropriate features then mostly it is going to be guess work.
Someone with a knowledge of meteorology, fluid mechanics and mechanics will make a more informed guess that someone who hasn't.

In so far the door will tend to shut faster the larger the area of it that is exposed to the force the witness is correct. Hence my comment on cos theta.
For the door to "blow" closed there must be an area of high pressure one side of the door and low pressure on the other side QED. For a fixed flow at a fixed upstream pressure the velocity through a small aperture will be greater than the velocity through a large aperture however a smaller aperture will cause more resistance therefore restricting the flow if the upstream pressure remains constant; but just how much air do you calculate is being moved to balance the pressure?
Better stop here it will not tell us much.

Just stick to the high level stuff it is more informative.

I doubt very much if the witness had any knowledge of the science behind slamming interior doors.  She described her experience exactly as it had happened ... and from the information posted by informed members ... we can see the description of the event fits the science.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....