Author Topic: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!  (Read 250782 times)

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AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #570 on: November 12, 2013, 12:56:54 AM »
I have to disagree Anne

Were this pair merely inadaquate,   (  we have been told that the brother  is below average intelligenec  ) and were it a case of the children involved being  neglected and ill treated as a consequence of that inadequecy,  then I might,  like you,  feel an uneasy compassion for a malfuntioning pair who had been brought up by an abusive  alchoholic father 

But it was  NOT  merely  'inadaquecy'  that these  dreadful siblings were charged with  ...  they were charged  (  and convicted )  of sadisically  beating a child to death 

I have no compassion for such monsters
I'm certainly horrified, Icabodcrane, but I feel I have to try and understand.
This is for you, only for you
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2013/jul/11/searchers-implacable-texas/

Offline Benice

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #571 on: November 12, 2013, 01:07:38 AM »

Simple-minded people being brought up in an environment where violence and abuse is part of everyday life is a dangerous combination

The brother being put in prison for four years having accepted money to  'do a murder'  is testiment to that

As is the mother of the murdered child having kids by a number of different men,  and then just abandoning them, like a litter of kittens 

The little girl,  called  'Cinderella'  by locals,  didn't have much of a chance in life from the start   ....  but having that life cut so brutally short is a  very sad thing indeed

9. 2. Facts considered not to be proved (during the trial ) :

1- that the arguida BB, throughout her life, failed to provide her children with basic care, mistreating them;

2- that HH, arguida BB’s son, was helped by neighbours;

3- that the arguida BB voted her daughter CC to disinterest and overloaded her with work, forcing her to carry out the domestic chores that she should perform but did not;
-------------------------------------------------

What has LC's brother's criminal activities  got to do with LC.     She doesn't have a criminal record. 

So she had children by different fathers  - does that make her a potential murderer? 

Do we know whether the fathers of her children were financially supporting them?    How do single mothers survive in Portugal?

Judging by the photographs of her home and of Joana - she was doing a pretty good job of things compared to some mothers.   Would you describe her home as 'filthy' - as the PJ did?

Easy to judge and condemn, when you don't know all the facts imo.   

The Press demonised LC in the press, way before she got to court.   So much for the Secrecy Laws.   

The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

icabodcrane

  • Guest
Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #572 on: November 12, 2013, 01:11:33 AM »
I'm certainly horrified, Icabodcrane, but I feel I have to try and understand.
This is for you, only for you
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2013/jul/11/searchers-implacable-texas/

Ah  ...  one of my favourite films of all time

Now the theme song  ...  'What makes a man to wonder'  will be playing through my mind for ages   ?{)(**

Offline Anna

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #573 on: November 12, 2013, 01:17:16 AM »
Leanors partner Leandro was also beaten up, reputedly by Amaral.  He was beaten up to give a witness statement.  At one time there was going to be a Court case about his having been beaten up, but seems that might have been dropped.

Just who would be brave enough to take a member of the PJ to Court?  It needs superhuman guts it seems to me.


I feel so sad for the lovely people of Portugal that they should have been "sold" the story that they are now in a Democracy, and most believed it .... when clearly it is still a Police State. 

Fascism rules

Yes Sadie,
Thank you, I found it and he wanted compensation for his injuries...seems there was witness too . He must have settled out of court. I am learning fast!
 It's a long way down on here     http://www.mccannfiles.com/id248.html
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline sadie

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #574 on: November 12, 2013, 01:25:10 AM »
You weren't on the Jury sadie  ...  you have no  idea  what  'evidence'  was presented in Court  ... none of us do

What we DO  know,  however,  is that  whatever  that evidence was,  it was sufficient for this appalling couple to have been convicted of the sadistic murder of an eight year old child
There were three Judges.  We know that the one Judge was appalled by the rulings and protested about the injustices of the case.  So Leonor and Joao were jailed on a two to one verdict, as Eleanor poiinted out.    And all the weight of the PJ against them.   Along with all the torture and NO REAL EVIDENCE, it was very very unsafe



Also, it seems that Leonors original lawyer, Joao Grade, was a friend of Amaral who was the head honcho on the case.  Joao Grade, Leonors lawyer, was at Amarals 50th birthdy party and at one time was going to train him to becoming a lawyer, they said. >@@(*&)

That all seems a bit cozy to me !   I think that in British Law, the Courts would require a "Delaration of Interest" in a case where the lawyer for the defence is a close friend of the Prosecuting party.


I think I am using the wrong term above, but hope you understand my meaning.

Aiofe

  • Guest
Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #575 on: November 12, 2013, 05:16:52 AM »
You weren't on the Jury sadie  ...  you have no  idea  what  'evidence'  was presented in Court  ... none of us do

What we DO  know,  however,  is that  whatever  that evidence was,  it was sufficient for this appalling couple to have been convicted of the sadistic murder of an eight year old child



Same for any other eventually proved miscarriage of justice.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #576 on: November 12, 2013, 07:06:41 AM »
Same for any other eventually proved miscarriage of justice.


What makes you think the Cipriano case was a miscarriage of justice ?

Aiofe

  • Guest
Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #577 on: November 12, 2013, 07:34:18 AM »

What makes you think the Cipriano case was a miscarriage of justice ?

General scepticism over cases settled via confessions where coercion or torture are a possibility. Police are the same the world over- convictions are more important than justice.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #578 on: November 12, 2013, 07:38:47 AM »
General scepticism over cases settled via confessions where coercion or torture are a possibility. Police are the same the world over- convictions are more important than justice.

What makes you sure in this case there has been a miscarriage of justice ?


Offline Mr Gray

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #579 on: November 12, 2013, 07:42:45 AM »
What makes you sure in this case there has been a miscarriage of justice ?

 Try reading the posts again... I for one have always said that there MAY have been a misacarriage of justice. We woulodnt be so stupid as to make a definitive judgement

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #580 on: November 12, 2013, 07:45:14 AM »
Try reading the posts again... I for one have always said that there MAY have been a misacarriage of justice. We woulodnt be so stupid as to make a definitive judgement

I have read the posts.

I wasn't asking you the question either, or didn't you note that  ?

Offline Montclair

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #581 on: November 12, 2013, 09:27:50 AM »
I find your comment about Portugal being a fascist police state disgusting and that of an ill informed and biaised person. You obviously know nothing, zilch, nada about our country and the best you can do is to remain quiet.

This accusation of Leandro was instigated by Marco Aragão Correia in order to discredit Gonçalo Amaral and this complaint was made IIRC 5 years after the so-called event. This case was thrown out by the judge and Gonçalo Amaral cleared. BTW, Leandro never complained about the police and was very cooperative during the entire investigation.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 12:31:51 PM by John »

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #582 on: November 12, 2013, 09:34:03 AM »
I find your comment about Portugal being a fascist police state disgusting and that of an ill informed and biaised person. You obviously know nothing, zilch, nada about our country and the best you can do is to remain quiet.

This accusation of Leandro was instigated by Marco Aragão Correia in order to discredit Gonçalo Amaral and this complaint was made IIRC 5 years after the so-called event. This case was thrown out by the judge and Gonçalo Amaral cleared. BTW, Leandro never complained about the police and was very cooperative during the entire investigation.

Well said.

 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(

Offline Eleanor

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #583 on: November 12, 2013, 10:03:56 AM »
I find your comment about Portugal being a fascist police state disgusting and that of an ill informed and biaised person. You obviously know nothing, zilch, nada about our country and the best you can do is to remain quiet.

This accusation of Leandro was instigated by Marco Aragão Correia in order to discredit Gonçalo Amaral and this complaint was made IIRC 5 years after the so-called event. This case was thrown out by the judge and Gonçalo Amaral cleared. BTW, Leandro never complained about the police and was very cooperative during the entire investigation.

The Case was then reinstated, since when we have heard nothing.  But there is nothing strange about that in Portugal where these things take years.

Leandro Silva did originally make a complaint to The PJ but was told that he had no complaint.  Until it was taken up by a Lawyer.  Not sure which Lawyer, but the one who got it reinstated.

Leandro Silva spent several days in hospital and several weeks off work after the attack by Goncalo Amaral, when two other PJ Officers held his arms behind his back.

I do expect to hear more of this eventually.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #584 on: November 12, 2013, 10:28:55 AM »
The Case was then reinstated, since when we have heard nothing.  But there is nothing strange about that in Portugal where these things take years.

Leandro Silva did originally make a complaint to The PJ but was told that he had no complaint.  Until it was taken up by a Lawyer.  Not sure which Lawyer, but the one who got it reinstated.

Leandro Silva spent several days in hospital and several weeks off work after the attack by Goncalo Amaral, when two other PJ Officers held his arms behind his back.

I do expect to hear more of this eventually.


It seems some posters believe there is overwhelming evidence against the Ciprianos. This cant be true as one out of two judges thought she was innocent...hardly overwhelming