Author Topic: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!  (Read 250788 times)

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Offline Montclair

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #585 on: November 12, 2013, 10:45:52 AM »
The Case was then reinstated, since when we have heard nothing.  But there is nothing strange about that in Portugal where these things take years.

Leandro Silva did originally make a complaint to The PJ but was told that he had no complaint.  Until it was taken up by a Lawyer.  Not sure which Lawyer, but the one who got it reinstated.

Leandro Silva spent several days in hospital and several weeks off work after the attack by Goncalo Amaral, when two other PJ Officers held his arms behind his back.

I do expect to hear more of this eventually.

The case was not reinstated!

Online Eleanor

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #586 on: November 12, 2013, 10:53:51 AM »

It seems some posters believe there is overwhelming evidence against the Ciprianos. This cant be true as one out of two judges thought she was innocent...hardly overwhelming

One out of three Judges, actually, Davel.  But still not good.  And The Media Campaign beforehand was appalling.

Hopefully this case will go down in history as the last such  example of the fascist state that was still lurking.  Probably still is.  But The World has got their eye on them now.  And the old guard are being weeded out.
Thanks to Madeleine.  Poor little soul.  And to Joana of course.

Online Eleanor

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #587 on: November 12, 2013, 11:01:39 AM »

It is not possible for Amaral to be cleared of the case against Leandro Silva without a Trial.  So far no such Trial has been held, and Amaral is consequently still an Arguido.

Benita

  • Guest
Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #588 on: November 12, 2013, 11:33:37 AM »
It is not possible for Amaral to be cleared of the case against Leandro Silva without a Trial.  So far no such Trial has been held, and Amaral is consequently still an Arguido.


 8@??)(

Offline John

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #589 on: November 12, 2013, 12:40:55 PM »
A temporary block has been put on certain members accounts for continued posting of false information in the Cipriano case. These will be reviewed in due course.

Comment.

A judge cannot determine a case unless he or she is presented with evidence.  This evidence can be both direct or circumstantial.  In the Cipriano case both types of evidence were presented to the Court.  To state that there is NO evidence in this case is to claim a falsehood.  Such falsehoods will never be permitted to stand on this forum.

Before we go any further let me say that it is clear that Leonor and others were assaulted by PJ officers in the course of the investigation.  To claim that a specific officer actually perpetrated the assault however cannot be established and has never been established by any Court in Portugal.

Such conduct is to be condemned and rightly so but while it creates doubt as to the eventual outcome in the case, readers must be mindful of the bigger picture.  The Court convicted Leanor Cipriano and her brother on the basis of all the facts and knowing full well that coercion of one sort or another had taken place.  None of us are in a position to challenge that decision having not attended the trial or being in possession of trial transcripts.  All we can possibly do is look at the history of the individuals concerned, the facts and the evidence as presented to us from other sources.

Wild claims of innocence or indeed guilt are unhelpful.  We are here to debate the case, nothing more.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 01:30:01 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #590 on: November 12, 2013, 01:32:09 PM »
A temporary block has been put on certain members accounts for continued posting of false information in the Cipriano case. These will be reviewed in due course.

Comment.

A judge cannot determine a case unless he or she is presented with evidence.  This evidence can be both direct or circumstantial.  In the Cipriano case both types of evidence were presented to the Court.  To state that there is NO evidence in this case is to claim a falsehood.  Such falsehoods will never be permitted to stand on this forum.

Before we go any further let me say that it is clear that Leonor and others were assaulted by PJ officers in the course of the investigation.  To claim that a specific officer actually perpetrated the assault however cannot be established and has never been established by any Court in Portugal.


People seem to be polarised on this case due to the connection with certain officers involved in the Madeleine case. I have asked, more than once, if this case could be placed on a sub-forum on its own merits as a potential miscarriage of justice.

Offline faithlilly

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #591 on: November 12, 2013, 01:39:44 PM »

People seem to be polarised on this case due to the connection with certain officers involved in the Madeleine case. I have asked, more than once, if this case could be placed on a sub-forum on its own merits as a potential miscarriage of justice.

Then due to Cipriano's proved perjury Amaral's conviction must also be seen as a potential miscarriage of justice.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Carana

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #592 on: November 12, 2013, 01:41:04 PM »
A temporary block has been put on certain members accounts for continued posting of false information in the Cipriano case. These will be reviewed in due course.

Comment.

A judge cannot determine a case unless he or she is presented with evidence.  This evidence can be both direct or circumstantial.  In the Cipriano case both types of evidence were presented to the Court.  To state that there is NO evidence in this case is to claim a falsehood.  Such falsehoods will never be permitted to stand on this forum.

Before we go any further let me say that it is clear that Leonor and others were assaulted by PJ officers in the course of the investigation.  To claim that a specific officer actually perpetrated the assault however cannot be established and has never been established by any Court in Portugal.

Such conduct is to be condemned and rightly so but while it creates doubt as to the eventual outcome in the case, readers must be mindful of the bigger picture.  The Court convicted Leanor Cipriano and her brother on the basis of all the facts and knowing full well that coercion of one sort or another had taken place.  None of us are in a position to challenge that decision having not attended the trial or being in possession of trial transcripts.  All we can possibly do is look at the history of the individuals concerned, the facts and the evidence as presented to us from other sources.

Wild claims of innocence or indeed guilt are unhelpful.  We are here to debate the case, nothing more.

The Supreme Court presumably recapped the "evidence" presented in the earlier trials.

I'm non the wiser as to what happened to this child.

Certain "facts" were presented as proven... but if you examine subsequent parts of the SC ruling, much of it seems to be based on "common experience".

A child was seen going towards her home. Most children do, indeed, arrive home. Therefore, it is taken as a proven fact that she did.

Would the same logic apply to children kidnapped on their way to / or from a school?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 01:49:08 PM by Carana »

Offline Carana

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #593 on: November 12, 2013, 01:43:55 PM »
Then due to Cipriano's proved perjury Amaral's conviction must also be seen as a potential miscarriage of justice.

I asked for a sub-forum on this case to divorce it from the connections with the officers involved.

Offline John

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #594 on: November 12, 2013, 01:44:55 PM »

People seem to be polarised on this case due to the connection with certain officers involved in the Madeleine case. I have asked, more than once, if this case could be placed on a sub-forum on its own merits as a potential miscarriage of justice.

A reasonable suggestion Carana and one which has been considered on more than one occasion.  It has also been stated that nobody would give two hoots about Leanor or Joana had it not been for Gonçalo Amarals involvement in the case.  I find that particularly sad and raises the question as to how many other cases exist with similar elements.

In my opinion the links to the Madeleine case are too significant to justify the case being moved to another board but this is a matter for the members so I will open it up for discussion and add a poll. TY
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #595 on: November 12, 2013, 01:46:13 PM »

People seem to be polarised on this case due to the connection with certain officers involved in the Madeleine case. I have asked, more than once, if this case could be placed on a sub-forum on its own merits as a potential miscarriage of justice.
Shouldn't you fly to Portimão to investigate this case through the original documents before identifying it as a "potential miscarriage of justice" ?

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #596 on: November 12, 2013, 01:53:09 PM »

Would the same logic apply to children kidnapped on their way to / or from a school?
There are cases of this kind in France, Carana, fortunately very very few. Does it never happen in the UK ?

Offline Carana

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #597 on: November 12, 2013, 02:07:05 PM »
A reasonable suggestion Carana and one which has been considered on more than one occasion.  It has also been stated that nobody would give two hoots about Leanor or Joana had it not been for Gonçalo Amarals involvement in the case.  I find that particularly sad and raises the question as to how many other cases exist with similar elements.

In my opinion the links to the Madeleine case are too significant to justify the case being moved to another board but this is a matter for the members so I will open it up for discussion and add a poll. TY

I only learned of this case due to googling the Madeleine case. As far as I'm concerned, there are connections, but what actually happened to this child?




Offline Carana

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #598 on: November 12, 2013, 02:18:34 PM »
There are cases of this kind in France, Carana, fortunately very very few. Does it never happen in the UK ?

Every country has cases of abducted / murdered children, some of which are cover-ups by the family/ friends. There are other cases in which family/ friends are suspected and in which the person responsible is eventually found to be someone else.


My question is: what happened to Joana?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 02:22:59 PM by Carana »

Offline Carana

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #599 on: November 12, 2013, 02:20:28 PM »
Shouldn't you fly to Portimão to investigate this case through the original documents before identifying it as a "potential miscarriage of justice" ?

I haven't been able to read the original process... just the points recapped by the Supreme Court.