The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!

[Cariad]

A scruffy drunk Moroccn street seller got into a fight with Carolinas father who owned a nearby cafe in late May 2007 and he threatened to take her.....doesnt sound like the son of an elite, does he?

Yes, after reading Sadie's recent posts regarding abducted children in the algarve, I did some Googling and all I could come up with RE Carolina was what you've just stated. An argument with someone who 'threatened' to kidnap her!

As for Joana, she was not fair haired, no matter how often sadie repeats it. She looked Mediterranean!

So these 3 fair haired abducted children then become one little girl who was never missing at all, one little dark haired child murdered by her mother and Madeleine Mccann.

 

[Carana]

From an article on the trial:
A key element of the prosecution’s case rests on the fact that the couple dismembered the girl’s corpse. António Leandro, confronted with photographs of tools allegedly used by the couple, said he recognised a saw he had kept at home.

It doesn't seem that they ever found, let alone analysed, the alleged "murder" weapons...


Points not proven:
18- that the knife with which the arguidos cut the minor’s body had a black handle;

24- that the bag which the arguidos were carrying late in the night of the 13th of September contained the instruments that had been used to cut the minor;

What, aside from this "reconstruction", led them to believe she'd been dismembered? Because they'd found unidentified traces of blood in a fridge drawer? Anything else?

[sadie]

sadie, how many children have been abducted on the Algarve in the last 10 years ?

That would be interesting to find out Pat.

My self set criteria were  ** under 15, pre-pubescent children who appeared to have been stranger abducted **

I am limited by my lack of the PT language and my poor computer skills.  For all intents and purposes, I never used a computer until I was 70 ish and my lack of skills holds me back.  I am very frustrated becos I am unable to safely post GE images.  I could explain so much more with that facility.


It would be great if you, Pat, or anyone else could contribute any other PT abductions / missing children, not family /friends related (mainland or elsewhere), under the PT constitution.  Madeira appears to have problems too.



In answer to your question, Pat, I only know of the three likely ones, since 2003

Joana C .... 12th Sept 2004 ..... Figueira (Mexilhoeira Grande, near Odiaxare, I think they are all the same municipality)
Carolina S .... 5th Dec 2006 ..... Silves
Madeleine M .... 3rd May 2007 .... Praia de Luz


Joanas is right in the centre of the missing girls  and she is within about 8-9 miles from Silves and 7 miles from PdL. 

Such a close cluster, in such a short period, of pretty fair haired little girls going missing.  Too close, imo, for it to be a co-incidence

So sad.

[sadie]

Speculation,  speculation and yet more speculation

Are you accusing  specific people of abductions ?

Now what proof exists for any of this ?

Rhetoric not included.

All the children mentioned vanished in a strange way Stephen.  That is FACT

We know that Carolina Santos was walked off by a stranger, so altho that didn't succeed, we KNOW that was an abduction.  Short lived tho it was.

Have I given anybodies name? 

NO, I wouldn't do that, altho I think I know who was behind it all.
And have dozens of pointers to a specific person.

[Anna]

All the children mentioned vanished in a strange way Stephen.  That is FACT

We know that Carolina Santos was walked off by a stranger, so altho that didn't succeed, we KNOW that was an abduction.  Short lived tho it was.

Have I given anybodies name? 

NO, I wouldn't do that, altho I think I know who was behind it all.
And have dozens of pointers to a specific person.

Well said Sade, I think that many are thinking the same but wont say it whereas you have expressed the possibilities well

[sadie]

A scruffy drunk Moroccn street seller got into a fight with Carolinas father who owned a nearby cafe in late May 2007 and he threatened to take her.....doesnt sound like the son of an elite, does he?

Some group is putting about disinformation designed to take the investigators eye off what really happened. 

Child abduction and trafficking is a lucrative business, with many involved.   They will go to any ends to obfuscate and put down Red Herrings, so that they are not caught.  At SY when I last visted, the sargeants eyes rolled up in dismay at the deliberate disinformation they had been given, and had to keep unravelling



May I suggest that you read new member "Hedgehogs" posts.  He suffered paedophilic abuse as a child in Germany.  In his case it was largely about extortion of money ... and seemingly on a fairly small scale.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1353.msg103451#msg103451

Corrupt governments may well use this method to blackmail top politicians, the world around.  To exercise control over decision makers and change the Political direction to the benefit of the Country or person doing the blackmail.

I have no actual proof of this but there are / have been pointers


Interstingly to me, drugs were used to change his perception of what was going on and to actually change his body functions to suit the paedo


But in the early days before this Carolina topic became a "hot potato" there was no mention of "A scruffy drunk Moroccn street seller got into a fight with Carolinas father who owned a nearby cafe in late May 2007 and he threatened to take her" on the internet.  I scoured the internet for information in 2008 /2009 and that has appeared only since internet discussion on the subject.


... edited out personal comments made towards another member ...

[sadie]

Yes, after reading Sadie's recent posts regarding abducted children in the algarve, I did some Googling and all I could come up with RE Carolina was what you've just stated. An argument with someone who 'threatened' to kidnap her!

As for Joana, she was not fair haired, no matter how often sadie repeats it. She looked Mediterranean!

So these 3 fair haired abducted children then become one little girl who was never missing at all, one little dark haired child murdered by her mother and Madeleine Mccann.

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0PRT7WgBWRI/TNCBrxOmg1I/AAAAAAAAABE/S-iPU7aKDls/s400/Image+4+Joana+Cipriano+(514+x+600).jpg



Joana in a cafe.  Nicely dressed, plump and looking happy enough.



http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/websiteJoana.1.jpg.w560h560.jpg



At a cafe with Leonor and Leandro.  Looking happy enough and fair haired.


The photos prove your incorrect perceptions.  Please make sure you get you facts right before posting and trying unsuccessfully to make me appear a liar

Lawyer Marcos Aragao Corriera personally told me that Joana was/ is blonde.  He did this to correct me when I said she was brown / dark haired.  I found he was correct.  Fair haired we Brits would call it, but to a latin person living in a dark haired , flashing black eyes country, she might well be considerd blonde.  As I mentioned before, maybe she is darker haired in the winter months, but with the suns rays becomes fair haired?

She was abducted/ went missing on Sept 12th so had had plenty of sun on her hair thru the summer and would probably have been quite fair haired at that time.

[Cariad]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0PRT7WgBWRI/TNCBrxOmg1I/AAAAAAAAABE/S-iPU7aKDls/s400/Image+4+Joana+Cipriano+(514+x+600).jpg



Joana in a cafe.  Nicely dressed, plump and looking happy enough.



http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/websiteJoana.1.jpg.w560h560.jpg



At a cafe with Leonor and Leandro.  Looking happy enough and fair haired.


The photos prove your incorrect perceptions.  Please make sure you get you facts right before posting and trying unsuccessfully to make me appear a liar

Lawyer Marcos Aragao Corriera personally told me that Joana was/ is blonde.  He did this to correct me when I said she was brown / dark haired.  I found he was correct.  Fair haired we Brits would call it, but to a latin person living in a dark haired , flashing black eyes country, she might well be considerd blonde.  As I mentioned before, maybe she is darker haired in the winter months, but with the suns rays becomes fair haired?

She was abducted/ went missing on Sept 12th so had had plenty of sun on her hair thru the summer and would probably have been quite fair haired at that time.

Posting photo's of her as a mousy brown 4 year old doesn't change the fact that she was a dark haired 8 year old. My niece is mixed race. Her paternal line is afro Caribbean. In the summer she gets blondish highlights through her hair. She's still dark though.

If you had to submit a description of Joana to the police while reporting her missing, taken from the most recent photograph, would you describe her as fair haired? 

I haven't accused you of lying. I don't think you're lying. I think tha you have somehow managed to convince yourself, despite the evidence of your own eyes, that Joana is fair haired, because it fits in with your 'theory'.

I personally find it very difficult to watch you take away the child's identity and transform her in to something she isn't.

[Albertini]

So here's what i don't understand about the alleged torture by the PJ of  Cipriano.

Who would (and especially coppers) inflict such obvious bruisings and markings on someone?

PJ officers would know that for them to inflict such a beating and to leave such visible injuries would leave them wide open to prosecution personally and potentially render their case against Cipriano unsafe.

If you want to torture a confession out of someone you do it without leaving marks and bruisings which can come back and haunt you.

What you don't do is do it in such a way that all the world can see your handywork. That makes no sense whatsoever.

[LagosBen]

So here's what i don't understand about the alleged torture by the PJ of  Cipriano.

Who would (and especially coppers) inflict such obvious bruisings and markings on someone?

PJ officers would know that for them to inflict such a beating and to leave such visible injuries would leave them wide open to prosecution personally and potentially render their case against Cipriano unsafe.

If you want to torture a confession out of someone you do it without leaving marks and bruisings which can come back and haunt you.



What you don't do is do it in such a way that all the world can see your handywork. That makes no sense whatsoever.

Maybe (and I'm not accusing just saying), there was a culture of torture, turn a blind eye and all that. Who knows how it works  8-)(--)

[Lyall]

No wonder the EU doesn't like us

[Benice]

So here's what i don't understand about the alleged torture by the PJ of  Cipriano.

Who would (and especially coppers) inflict such obvious bruisings and markings on someone?

PJ officers would know that for them to inflict such a beating and to leave such visible injuries would leave them wide open to prosecution personally and potentially render their case against Cipriano unsafe.

If you want to torture a confession out of someone you do it without leaving marks and bruisings which can come back and haunt you.

What you don't do is do it in such a way that all the world can see your handywork. That makes no sense whatsoever.

IMO You would if you had no idea the world was going to see your handywork and it had worked in the past.
Policemen stick together (the world over) and generally don't grass on oneanother.       But when they tortured LC  - they had no idea that the Director of the Prison was going to put a spanner in their works by refusing to be part of the proposed cover up to 'share' the blame for LCs horrific injuries -  by agreeing to say LC had made a suicide attempt at the police station and had also been beaten up by inmates in the prison.   

IMO that brave Prison Director did Portugal a huge favour that day. 

[Albertini]

IMO You would if you had no idea the world was going to see your handywork and it had worked in the past.
Policemen stick together (the world over) and generally don't grass on oneanother.       But when they tortured LC  - they had no idea that the Director of the Prison was going to put a spanner in their works by refusing to be part of the proposed cover up to 'share' the blame for LCs horrific injuries -  by agreeing to say LC had made a suicide attempt at the police station and had also been beaten up by inmates in the prison.   

IMO that brave Prison Director did Portugal a huge favour that day.

Again it doesn't make sense. If you are going to beat someone black and blue you make sure you have everyone needed to cover it up on board before you do it.

You don't do it and then try and corrupt everyone after the event.

To suggest a defendant in a murder trial wouldn't expose the beating to the world is nonsensical as well. It would provide a defence to the allegations.

So there is no sense in the PJ doing it they way that has been alleged. There is however perfect logic as to why a defendant in a murder trail would allege it though, isn't there?

[Benice]

.... deleted removed quote ...

The fact that Mrs Murat put up a table outside so that members of the public who were reluctant (scared?)  to want to have direct contact with the PJ could still pass on any info they might have - says quite a lot too.  imo.

[Carana]

Again it doesn't make sense. If you are going to beat someone black and blue you make sure you have everyone needed to cover it up on board before you do it.

You don't do it and then try and corrupt everyone after the event.

To suggest a defendant in a murder trial wouldn't expose the beating to the world is nonsensical as well. It would provide a defence to the allegations.

So there is no sense in the PJ doing it they way that has been alleged. There is however perfect logic as to why a defendant in a murder trail would allege it though, isn't there?

Hmmm. Would it? As far as I'm aware there wasn't any video recording of people taken in for questioning (from beginning to end), so how could anything be proven one way or the other?