Author Topic: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!  (Read 250710 times)

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Offline Benice

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1035 on: November 19, 2013, 12:38:55 PM »
An excellent representation of the facts as always Benice.  The problem is that we are discussing a case in Portugal and not London.  The police in Portugal, Spain and Italy to name but three European countries don't play by the same rules as one might expect to experience in Old Blighty.

As far as Amaral and that other PJ officer is concerned they lied to the court in relation to how Leonor got her injuries in the police station.  They both rightly received sentences for their conduct.

A retrial would have been ordered if the only evidence against the Ciprianos had been their confession under duress.  Both Leonor and João refused to give evidence at their trial apparently on advice from their respective lawyers.  These are not the actions of innocent people.  It is very clear that had they taken the stand they would have implicated themselves in the murder.  Neither of them were credible witnesses as they are both compulsive liars.

The conduct of Leonor when she testified at the Amaral perjury trial evidences this fact.  She received a further conviction for perjury for her efforts on that occasion.


I would disagree that it was proved that they were compulsive liars.   People will say anything and agree to any suggestion being put to them by others  if they are being tortured at the time, and IMO that is a credible explanation as to why different answers and different scenarios were given or agreed to during interrogation using torture.

I also don't agree that the legal advice given to them NOT to testify in court is a sign of guilt.  Why would their own lawyers encourage their own clients  to do something which would jeopardise their chances of obtaining justice.   That makes no sense to me.

We can only speculate as to why that advice was given.  It could be that

(a) LCs lawyer was aware that with no forensic evidence, no motive, no trace of body parts, no cutting tools and no proof that Joana had made it back to her home that night - there was no need for her to testify.

and/or

(b) He did not consider that the poorly educated and apparently non too bright LC would stand a chance against a highly trained, intelligent  sophisticated prosecution lawyer - who would run rings round her - in an environment which was his 'second' home, but totally alien to her. 

As I say - pure speculation - just as it is pure speculation on my part that the judges/jury were possibly influenced to give a Guilty verdict by the hatred of the general public - which had been whipped up to lynch mob proportions - particularly against LC by a vicious pre-trial press campaign against her and which was so evident from the abuse being sceamed at her from the public gallery.   

The fact that the secrecy laws were broken by the PJ in order to promote and aid and abet that smear campaign no doubt would be denied by the PJ - but then they would say that wouldn't they.



   


 




 








The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline John

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1036 on: November 19, 2013, 12:54:21 PM »
This would be good.  I would love to know who brought the case of defamation against Leonor Cipriano when she doesn't appear ever to have named them because she didn't know who they were.

I would also like to know why she got a further seven months in prison for committing perjury against three men that she never named while Amaral and his oppo got suspended sentences for the same crime in the same case.

PS.  It is on record that she could not and did not identify these men in a line up.  What sort of Justice is this?

I believe your answer to this is that she lied to a judge even after being warned about perjury.  In my opinion she was lucky to have got away with 7 months extra.

Amaral got 18 months in mitigating circumstances and since his record was previously unblemished he received a suspended sentence.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Eleanor

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1037 on: November 19, 2013, 01:03:21 PM »
I believe your answer to this is that she lied to a judge even after being warned about perjury.  In my opinion she was lucky to have got away with 7 months extra.

Amaral got 18 months in mitigating circumstances and since his record was previously unblemished he received a suspended sentence.

You have proof that she lied to a Judge after being warned?  I would love to see that.

Offline John

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1038 on: November 19, 2013, 01:04:35 PM »

I would disagree that it was proved that they were compulsive liars.   People will say anything Andy a freeway to any suggestion being put to them by others if they are being tortured at the time, and IMO that is a credible explanation as to why different answers and different scenarios were given or agreed to during interrogation using torture.

I also don't agree that the legal advice given to them NOT to testify in court is a sign of guilt.  Why would their own lawyers encourage their own clients  to do something which would jeopardise their chances of obtaining justice.   That makes no sense to me.

We can only speculate as to why that advice was given.  It could be that

(a) LCs lawyer was aware that with no forensic evidence, no motive, no trace of body parts, no cutting tools and no proof that Joana had made it back to her home that night - there was no need for her to testify.

and/or

(b) He did not consider that the poorly educated and apparently non too bright LC would stand a chance against a highly trained, intelligent  sophisticated prosecution lawyer - who would run rings round her - in an environment which was his 'second' home, but totally alien to her. 

As I say - pure speculation - just as it is pure speculation on my part that the judges/jury were possibly influenced to give a Guilty verdict by the hatred of the general public - which had been whipped up to lynch mob proportions - particularly against LC by a vicious pre-trial press campaign against her and which was so evident from the abuse being screamed at her from the public gallery.   

The fact that the secrecy laws were broken by the PJ in order to promote and aid and abet that smear campaign no doubt would be denied by the PJ - but then they would say that wouldn't they.

You can say what you like Be nice, she wasn't being tortured in court. Leanor changed her story so many times at the Amaral trial that even the judge was frustrated with her.  She us a liar Be nice so let's not split hairs on this issue.

Her lawyers knew that she would crack in the witness box thus they made the only decision they could and told her to keep quiet.

And stop twisting the evidence.  She was seen going home, her shoes were still in the house as was the shopping she bought so get a grip!



« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 02:50:18 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1039 on: November 19, 2013, 01:09:33 PM »
You have proof that she lied to a Judge after being warned?  I would love to see that.

She was convicted of PERJURY.  Do try and keep up!
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Eleanor

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1040 on: November 19, 2013, 01:18:14 PM »
She was convicted of PERJURY.  Do try and keep up!

So you don't have any proof that she lied to a Judge after being warned.  Or what form those lies took.

Offline Carana

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1041 on: November 19, 2013, 01:26:20 PM »

I would disagree that it was proved that they were compulsive liars.   People will say anything and agree to any suggestion being put to them by others  if they are being tortured at the time, and IMO that is a credible explanation as to why different answers and different scenarios were given or agreed to during interrogation using torture.

I also don't agree that the legal advice given to them NOT to testify in court is a sign of guilt.  Why would their own lawyers encourage their own clients  to do something which would jeopardise their chances of obtaining justice.   That makes no sense to me.

We can only speculate as to why that advice was given.  It could be that

(a) LCs lawyer was aware that with no forensic evidence, no motive, no trace of body parts, no cutting tools and no proof that Joana had made it back to her home that night - there was no need for her to testify.

and/or

(b) He did not consider that the poorly educated and apparently non too bright LC would stand a chance against a highly trained, intelligent  sophisticated prosecution lawyer - who would run rings round her - in an environment which was his 'second' home, but totally alien to her. 

As I say - pure speculation - just as it is pure speculation on my part that the judges/jury were possibly influenced to give a Guilty verdict by the hatred of the general public - which had been whipped up to lynch mob proportions - particularly against LC by a vicious pre-trial press campaign against her and which was so evident from the abuse being sceamed at her from the public gallery.   

The fact that the secrecy laws were broken by the PJ in order to promote and aid and abet that smear campaign no doubt would be denied by the PJ - but then they would say that wouldn't they.


My thoughts are along the same lines as yours.

I'd add that I'm not very clear as to how much time the various pro-bono defence lawyers had to devote to this case.

Offline John

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1042 on: November 19, 2013, 01:54:23 PM »
My thoughts are along the same lines as yours.

I'd add that I'm not very clear as to how much time the various pro-bono defence lawyers had to devote to this case.

Actually it was a complete cock-up as two other lawyers turned up on day-1 of the trial claiming to represent Leonor.  Apparently they had been engaged at short notice by some third party.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1043 on: November 19, 2013, 01:57:48 PM »
You can say what you like Be nice, she wasn't being tortured in court. Leanor changed her story so many times at the Amaral trial that even the judge was frustrated with her.  She us a liar Be nice so let's not split hairs on this issue.

Her lawyers knew that she would crack in the witness box thus they made the only decision they could and told her to keep quiet.

And stop telling lies about the evidence.  She was seen going home, her shoes were still in the house as was the shopping she bought so get a grip!

She was seen walking home, according to one witness. No problem with that. It's still not clear how it was established that all her shoes were home (Leandro's statement doesn't seem to mention that)... and even less when it was supposed it have been established when the shopping was found or who found it.

Could you find  where you'd read that?


Offline John

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1044 on: November 19, 2013, 01:58:22 PM »
So you don't have any proof that she lied to a Judge after being warned.  Or what form those lies took.

Yes, the court reportings are there for anyone to read.  An ability to understand Portuguese would be an advantage though.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline sadie

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1045 on: November 19, 2013, 02:17:19 PM »
She was seen walking home, according to one witness. No problem with that. It's still not clear how it was established that all her shoes were home (Leandro's statement doesn't seem to mention that)... and even less when it was supposed it have been established when the shopping was found or who found it.

Could you find  where you'd read that?
I have read around and as far as I can see the last sighting of Joana was as she went up the steps at the Church.  That is 200 metres from home.


John, I asked you before, but you must have missed it. 

In a previous post you said that Leonor only lived just up the road from the Sports Centre where the Cockle fair was being held.  That there were GNR there

I asked for Joanas home address and I would be grateful if you could find it.

I am preparing a map showing relative places and need that obviously.  Thanks in anticipation

Offline Benice

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1046 on: November 19, 2013, 02:26:38 PM »
You can say what you like Be nice, she wasn't being tortured in court. Leanor changed her story so many times at the Amaral trial that even the judge was frustrated with her.  She us a liar Be nice so let's not split hairs on this issue.

Her lawyers knew that she would crack in the witness box thus they made the only decision they could and told her to keep quiet.

And stop telling lies about the evidence.  She was seen going home, her shoes were still in the house as was the shopping she bought so get a grip!

Sarah Payne was also witnessed  'going home' but she didn't get there did she.   There are no witnesses who saw Joanna arriving home on the night she disappeared - she was only seen heading off in that direction.

Unless a receipt was found at her home then how could it be established that the groceries found were those purchased?   And when were these items discovered and by whom  - the GNR or the Pj?   

If Joana's body and clothing she wore that night were completely disposed of and vanished without a trace - then why keep her shoes in the house if they are the same shoes you are going to claim she was wearing when she disappeared?   That makes no sense.

Kindly do not call me a liar - I do not lie and if I am proved to be mistaken about anthing I have no problem in accepting that and making a retraction.





 



   





The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Carana

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1047 on: November 19, 2013, 02:29:04 PM »
This one quote level sometimes make it difficult to follow anything.

@ John This was your comment to Benice.

She was seen going home, her shoes were still in the house as was the shopping she bought so get a grip!

Question: when, if ever, was that house sealed as a crime scene?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 02:52:30 PM by John »

Offline Anna

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1048 on: November 19, 2013, 02:33:46 PM »
She was seen walking home, according to one witness. No problem with that. It's still not clear how it was established that all her shoes were home (Leandro doesn't seem to mention that)... and even less when it was supposed it have been established when the shopping was found or who found it.

Could you find  where you'd read that?

There is nothing in the court case to suggest that the food purchased was in the house
and theres nothing to say that Leona or Leandro told them about shoes

The case where she was found to be lying was a case brought by her lawyer I believe regarding the torture committed by certain officers and because she lied( said the bag on her head was blue or green, instead of blue and she was sitting some of the time and not kneeling all of the time also she didn't recognise the aggressors many years later)= Liar they condemned, so Perjury.
 I think I got that right as I have so many files now that it is a puzzle and I need to get them categorised 
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline John

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1049 on: November 19, 2013, 02:57:10 PM »
I have removed the comment I directed to Benice and amended the later posts.  I will not however allow false information to be posted by anyone.

Carana, you made the point about the crime scene being unprotected and rightly so.  Going from memory it was about 4 days before the GNR called in the detectives at the PJ.

The point I made earlier was that Leandro and Joana's aunt were asked to identify which shoes belonging to Joana were missing.  None were.

Leandro also gave evidence about the dried milk and the two tins of tuna. In his opinion the shopping was brought home.

Leandro also gave evidence that tools normally kept in the Cipriano home were missing including specifically, a hacksaw.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 03:03:21 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.