The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!

[Angelo222]

With a sledge hammer.

No, a cardboard tube.

[Mr Gray]

It's a no-brainer Carana.  A police force which is undermanned and underfunded isn't going to use valuable resources on some ulterior scenarios or to put it another way, a wild goose chase, when the protagonists admit to being involved.

Once the Ciprianos admitted culpability it was a case of fitting the rest of the pieces into the jigsaw.

you mean once the confession was beaten out of Leonor no more policework was necessary...as we have realised on the correct thread there was no real evidence against either of them

[Mr Gray]

No, a cardboard tube.

so you admit she was beaten

[John]

you mean once the confession was beaten out of Leonor no more policework was necessary...as we have realised on the correct thread there was no real evidence against either of them

On the last day of the trial the voice of João Cipriano was heard in court by virtue of a video recording made by the Judicial Police during investigations.  In brutal detail he confessed to killing Joana and of disposing of her body.  The defence objected claiming that João's words had no value since the defendants chose not to testify at trial. The judge overruled the objection.

So they both confessed to the same thing.  Don't you think that is just a tad coincidental especially since they had no way of contacting each other to concoct a story?

[stephen25000]

perhaps it was the pj who supplied the story..we don't know under what circumstances the confession was made...there was no real evidence aginst either of them...it was claimed she was killed and dismembered in the house yet NONE of the blood found matched Joanna...the whole conviction looks ridiculously unsafe...not only to me but also others..portuguese ...who saw all the evidence

....or of course she is guilty and made a confession, then changed her 'mind'.

[John]

perhaps it was the pj who supplied the story..we don't know under what circumstances the confession was made...there was no real evidence aginst either of them...it was claimed she was killed and dismembered in the house yet NONE of the blood found matched Joanna...the whole conviction looks ridiculously unsafe...not only to me but also others..portuguese ...who saw all the evidence

Thought you said there was no evidence...do make you mind up Dave.   

[Mr Gray]

....or of course she is guilty and made a confession, then changed her 'mind'.

The confession which was beaten out of her is the only evidence against her...

[Mr Gray]

Thought you said there was no evidence...do make you mind up Dave.   

I've made my mind up

[stephen25000]

The confession which was beaten out of her is the only evidence against her...

She confessed before she changed her story.

Guilty as charged.

If it wasn't for Amaral, you wouldn't give a rat's arse about that woman.

[Carana]

On the last day of the trial the voice of João Cipriano was heard in court by virtue of a video recording made by the Judicial Police during investigations.  In brutal detail he confessed to killing Joana and of disposing of her body.  The defence objected claiming that João's words had no value since the defendants chose not to testify at trial. The judge overruled the objection.

So they both confessed to the same thing.  Don't you think that is just a tad coincidental especially since they had no way of contacting each other to concoct a story?

They didn't need to contact each other. The interrogating officers could have done the honours, unless you believe that the police have never used any form of bluff. Anywhere. At any time.

[sadie]

I am too tired at present to give the answer this deserves, but the fact that the Court judged
1)  on TORTURED OUT statements,

2)  that they took the word of  two PJ officers, the one of whom is allegedly about to stand trial on SEVEN very dirty deeds and the other is a convicted liar says oceans.  In fairness the Courts were not aware of this at the time.

3)  There were NO FORENSICS at all  ... moderated as false ...

4)  The Courts allowed a video of a man who "confessed"  to be played, when the man had pled innocence.  This man could have been deprived of his drugs then re-offered them if he did as told .... or tortured as the others, Leonor and Leandro were, to obtain it.  In any case I thought that such admissions were NOT allowed in PT Courts.  What happened here then?

5)  Their lawyer persuaded them to remain silent.  How could they defend themselves?
 
It turned out that their Lawyer had been found carrying drugs into a prison, but mysteriously appears to have been let off charges ... ermm  >@@(*&)  ... and also that their lawyer was a personal friend of Amaral, the inspector, who was the drugs Inspector for the area and who, with Cristavao, formed the bizarre Prosecution theory put to Court.

Lawyer to lead Inspectors relationship is a bit too cozy for my liking.

6)  The courts did not accept certain aspects of Amaral and Cristovaos theory, yet conveniently forgot that.

7)  The court refused evidence from, we are told, more people who were supportive or non commital of The Ciprianos than people that were against them.  Why was that?

8)  There was no body, nor forensically checked blood, nor any evidence of what happened to Joana

9)  Cristavao made mega bucks from the case and trial by writing a book about it.  Did he also get the heave ho?

10)  Propaganda via leaks destroyed any chance of a fair trial.

That will do for now.  I am sure there is plenty more that the analysts on this forum could add.
 

The fact that the judge ignored all the above and more, yet found both Leonor and Joao guilty says more about the PT Justice system than even you do, Luz

[John]

They didn't need to contact each other. The interrogating officers could have done the honours, unless you believe that the police have never used any form of bluff. Anywhere. At any time.

Their stories have too much in common to have been made up as some suggest. As you know João wrote to Leonor afterwards seeking her forgiveness for implicating her.  Obviously he had a conscience after all especially when he wasn't in a drug fuelled stupour.

[Benice]

I am too tired at present to give the answer this deserves, but the fact that the Court judged
1)  on TORTURED OUT statements,

2)  that they took the word of  two PJ officers, the one of whom is allegedly about to stand trial on SEVEN very dirty deeds and the other is a convicted liar says oceans.  In fairness the Courts were not aware of this at the time.

3)  There were NO FORENSICS at all ....moderated as false ...

4)  The Courts allowed a video of a man who "confessed"  to be played, when the man had pled innocence.  This man could have been deprived of his drugs then re-offered them if he did as told .... or tortured as the others, Leonor and Leandro were, to obtain it.  In any case I thought that such admissions were NOT allowed in PT Courts.  What happened here then?

5)  Their lawyer persuaded them to remain silent.  How could they defend themselves?
 
It turned out that their Lawyer had been found carrying drugs into a prison, but mysteriously appears to have been let off charges ... ermm  >@@(*&)  ... and also that their lawyer was a personal friend of Amaral, the inspector, who was the drugs Inspector for the area and who, with Cristavao, formed the bizarre Prosecution theory put to Court.

Lawyer to lead Inspectors relationship is a bit too cozy for my liking.

6)  The courts did not accept certian aspects of Amaral and Cristovaos theory, yet conveniently forgot that.

7)  The court refused evidence from, we are told, more people who were supportive or non commital of The Ciprianos than people that were against them.  Why was that?

8)  There was no body, nor forensically checked blood, nor any evidence of what happened to Joana

9)  Cristavao made mega bucks from the case and trial by writing a book about it.  Did he also get the heave ho?

10)  Propaganda via leaks destroyed any chance of a fair trial.

That will do for now.  I am sure there is plenty more that the analysts on this forum could add.
 

The fact that the judge ignored all the above and more, yet found both Leonor and Joao guilty says more about the PT Justice system than even you do, Luz

Good post Sadie - your following  point in particular seems to go against the Portuguese rules in court cases.  LC and her brother opted to say nothing during the trial.   By playing that tape that 'constitutional right' was completely ignored IMO.


Quote
4)  The Courts allowed a video of a man who "confessed"  to be played, when the man had pled innocence.  This man could have been deprived of his drugs then re-offered them if he did as told .... or tortured as the others, Leonor and Leandro were, to obtain it.  In any case I thought that such admissions were NOT allowed in PT Courts.  What happened here then?
Unquote


... the prosecution sought and received permission to play the tape recorded confession to the court ...

[stephen25000]

that never happened...a forum myth

The biggest forum myth, cipriano is innocent.

[Mr Gray]

The biggest forum myth, cipriano is innocent.

we don't know if Leonor is guilty or innocent...we do know that she has been found guilty by a court but how safe this conviction is we don't know....we do know that the idea that the FSS mixed dna with that of its technicians is a myth based on the fact that some people misunderstood the statement they made