Author Topic: Some Basic Questions  (Read 15465 times)

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Some Basic Questions
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2018, 01:58:19 PM »
I have just removed numerous posts.

Everyone is welcome here to discuss the case whatever their case related views.  However posts about "peanut gallery" and "projections" and such like will not be tolerated as it simply escalates and takes the thread off-topic. 

 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Nicholas

Re: Some Basic Questions
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2018, 02:01:29 PM »
Quote from: LuminousWanderer[quote
Again, I am not taking sides about his guilt or innocence, simply because in the absence of incontestable either way, we just can't know.  Therefore, I can't exonerate him, neither can you; nor can I pronounce him culpable, and neither can you.

A judge and indeed a jury did just that 30 odd years ago so there's no need for either of us to come to that conclusion.

This is a public debating forum - not a court of law.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 02:03:56 PM by Stephanie »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Angelo222

Re: Some Basic Questions
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2018, 02:12:17 PM »
I was not referring to the possibility of Bamber using somebody else.  Similarly to John above, I put that theory under the 'Bamber' heading.  To that extent, I would accept what you say.

As I understand it, there were no signs of forced entry.  If the farmhouse was locked from within, then it makes sense to exclude third party involvement on that basis - but yes, allowing for the caveat that Bamber could have got somebody else to do it for him.

Was the farmhouse fully-locked, though?  Probably we'll never know.

The farmhouse was fully locked, all external doors were secured from the inside, there is no dispute about this.  The police had to use a sledgehammer to gain entry via the back door.

With due respect Luminous, could I repeat what Adam has already suggested and that is that you swat up on the case from the threads already available.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 02:16:17 PM by Angelo222 »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Nicholas

Re: Some Basic Questions
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2018, 02:15:07 PM »
The farmhouse was fully locked, all external doors were secured from the inside, there is no dispute about this.  The police had to use a sledgehammer to gain entry via the back door.

And Jeremy Bamber told police his father Neville had telephoned him indicating his sister Sheila had a gun.
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Some Basic Questions
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2018, 02:17:23 PM »
The particulars of my background would be what?  I have not appointed myself as judge and jury.  I'm not assuming anything about guilt or innocence.  I don't purport to have expertise and I claim none.

Could you please, just briefly, give me a summary of your professional experience in criminal detection, in support of this assertion you make?  I'm not being facetious, I'm just very interested in this idea that murder cases are in essence very simple.  I have no experience of police or investigative work whatsoever, but general life experience and common-sense would tell me that murder investigations in which the happenings are a mystery are going to be factually complex and intellectually-challenging. 

The happenings of this case aren't a mystery.

Jeremy Bamber set the scene early on suggesting to police it was his sister who had a gun - ergo was the perp.

The police originally went with this until they realised they had been conned/set up by Jeremy Bamber.


« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 02:21:23 PM by Stephanie »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Angelo222

Re: Some Basic Questions
« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2018, 02:19:31 PM »
Please keep posts harmonious everyone, there is no need for aggressive posting.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Nicholas

Re: Some Basic Questions
« Reply #51 on: March 21, 2018, 03:16:33 PM »
And Jeremy Bamber told police his father Neville had telephoned him indicating his sister Sheila had a gun.

Most murder cases are in essence very simple and the White House Farm murders are no different.  As pointed out above, the only two people who could have carried out the murders were Jeremy or Sheila. In claiming that his father telephoned him, Jeremy Bamber inadvertently ruled out any third party. This is also backed up by the fact that the farmhouse was locked from the inside putting Sheila in the frame.  However, Jeremy Bamber knew how to get into the farmhouse even after all the doors had been bolted and locked from within, this thus puts him in the frame also.

Bearing the above in mind, we know that the killer had a physical altercation with Nevill Bamber over the kitchen table where several objects were broke and a glass ceiling light fixture was shattered. A petite Sheila Caffell could not have won such a fight with her adoptive father who was much taller and stronger than she was.  In any event, a forensic examination of Sheila's remains did not reveal any signs of a struggle or blood from her father on her or her nightdress.  In addition, barefooted Sheila had no glass shards on her feet which she would have had if she been involved in a fight in the kitchen.

These points are indisputable and cannot be explained away. As a consequence and taking everything into consideration, as Sheila could not have been the killer then it had to have been her brother Jeremy Bamber by default or someone contracted by him.  Either way, he is still guilty.

No he didn't.  You, and probably almost everybody who has commented on this case - including the police and courts - are wrong on this point.

How are we all wrong? I'm intrigued
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 03:19:09 PM by Stephanie »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Some Basic Questions
« Reply #52 on: March 21, 2018, 03:26:07 PM »
I'm not sure I agree.  We're left with the indisputable fact that no forensic evidence directly links Bamber to the scene.  That is highly significant in its own right.  Given the facts alleged, I think the police should have been able to produce some.

I don't rate the lawyers at trial but I'm pretty sure they were offay with whether or not sufficient 'evidence' existed to bring a case against JB.  Here's the guide.  Where do you think it falls short?

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/488508/Evidence_v3.0EXT_clean.pdf

On this point, I think I agree. 

I don't see how that makes it neutral.  The plain fact is that if your summary of the forensic evidence is correct, then the expert testimony does not confirm who the blood was from. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "neutral"?  It seems to me the lawyers at trial, and certainly the trial judge, had a poor understanding of the blood evidence.  It appears inferences were made that the blood test results were exclusive to SC which isn't the case.  Statistically a member of the jury would share the same test results/blood groups.  Rivlin's strategy was IMO an own goal.  Instead of repudiating the silencer he corregraphed it into the soc/case.

But I'm not appealing for greater attention to detail.  You misrepresent my point, which was to query why he might refer to THE [rifle/firearm/shotgun].  Was there just one such weapon in the house?  It's a relevant question.

I believe the shotgun was the only Bamber owned working gun. 
 
"Obvious to you" is quite telling, suggesting that it's not obvious at all.  If it were, then it would not just be obvious to you, would it.  For my part, I am sure of what I have seen.  No doubt in my mind.  The telephone logs that I have seen are definitely written as if there were two calls from two different people.  As I have been at pains to emphasise, that does not mean there were two calls, but in the absence of corroboration for only one call (see my request for this above), it is not unreasonable to take the records on the face of it.  If you disagree, then produce the telephone logs on which you base your opinion.  That would seem to me the way to resolve this.  I will err on the side of caution and rely on your version.

I have looked at the logs in the past and IMO they are internal messages about 1 tel call from JB.  As I said given how events unfolded on 7th Aug I'm pretty certain officers would be aware if NB called EP.  A large number of officers were deployed to WHF including senior personnel, firearms and air response.  Given this backdrop I'm sure word would get round NB called EP but not a word. 


Means nothing.  People get it wrong in witness statements every day of the week and on Sundays.  I've already explained why he might have got it wrong.  It's a reasonable point that I make. 

I can understand JB getting times mixed up but to go into such detail
about looking up a number and how long it took him to do so IMO is fairly conclusive evidence that this is what he did.  Whether he did or didn't I don't think it implicates him in any way. 
 
Of course it's subjective - and that being the case, you'll see that I have pointed out how the argument can be put both ways!  Yes, on the face of it, Bamber had a motive to kill.  He also had a motive not to kill.

I don't see your point.  You seem to be assuming things backwards.  Yes, if we say Bamber killed his parents, inheritance is the obvious motive.  The word there is 'if'.

I think lay witness testimony from JM and others about a taste for the finer things in life and having money whilst you're young had an effect at trial.  Along with JB's conversations with police officers about a proposed purchase of a Porsche.

The point is that this idea that Sheila wasn't capable of firing a gun is groundless.  She had fired guns.  I take issue both with you and a commenter above on this point because, the way I read the relevant parts of your posts, you seem keen to give the impression that she couldn't or absolutely wouldn't have fired a gun.  In reality, there is no basis for this conclusion.

Which part of my post leads you to this conclusion? 

A 2 year old girl recently used FaceTime to summon help for her mother.  Apparently she had simply observed her mother using it.

I find it difficult to envisage a situation where SC, growing up on the farm with NB and JB, wasn't able to operate the rifle as per soc.  I've always said the lawyers could perhaps have tested how long it would take novices to load mag, chamber round and fire shots at close range targets to test the level of skill required.

Tell me where I have advanced a conspiracy theory here?  Nowhere!  What I gave you is logic.  It is a mere assumption, nothing more, that Sheila must have been the killer if Bamber couldn't have been, or vice versa.  That does not mean I think it was a third party.  I only speculate.

I disagree with what the court said here - and I have explained why, using logic.  As stated, the phone call does not exclude the possibility of a third party.  What would make third party involvement improbable is if the farmhouse was secured, and my understanding is that there were no reports of any signs of forced entry, but in that regard I ask again: do we know if the farmhouse was fully locked? 

Noted.

I don't believe I asserted you advanced a conspiracy?  But plenty of others have eg Mike Tesko has suggested a scruffy hunched up man supposedly seen running from WHF.  Bogus lawyer GDS suggested UK intelligence services were responsible. 

I think the courts work on plausibility and most find claims the perp(s) was anyone other than JB or SC implausible including myself.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Angelo222

Re: Some Basic Questions
« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2018, 04:10:09 PM »
This continually dragged out nonsense claiming Neville phoned the police is rather pathetic.  Had such a call been made the person who received it would have said so long ago.  We have all looked at the call logs which went from the civilian controller in the communications suite to police HQ, there is no mystery about it yet some still try to muddy the waters.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline APRIL

Re: Some Basic Questions
« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2018, 04:41:44 PM »
This continually dragged out nonsense claiming Neville phoned the police is rather pathetic.  Had such a call been made the person who received it would have said so long ago.  We have all looked at the call logs which went from the civilian controller in the communications suite to police HQ, there is no mystery about it yet some still try to muddy the waters.

I can't lose the feeling that much of this case has become nothing more than a game of semantics. Words -indeed whole sentences- have become twisted in order to give them a meaning other than what was intended, the phone call from Nevill -or rather, the LACK of a phone call from Nevill- and it's non existent documentation, other than the relevant logs re Jeremy's call, being an example, as is the ongoing debate about an alleged personal panic alarm for Nevill's sole use, surveillance by SB, the drugs squad, MI5, Uncle Tom Cobley et al, and Robin Hood and his Merry Men.

Offline LuminousWanderer

Re: Some Basic Questions
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2018, 06:10:41 PM »
The farmhouse was fully locked, all external doors were secured from the inside, there is no dispute about this.  The police had to use a sledgehammer to gain entry via the back door.

With due respect Luminous, could I repeat what Adam has already suggested and that is that you swat up on the case from the threads already available.

Sorry but I'm not sure I agree.  I have read about the case.  I have already explained that the information available is contradictory and confusing.  This thread was an attempt on my part to obtain answers and clarification on specific points.  Sometimes it pays to start from square one and ask questions.  Is there something wrong with that?

But thank you for the information.  If the farmhouse was locked from the inside, to my mind that excludes a third party (other than perhaps Bamber contracting somebody else to do it).
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 06:21:04 PM by LuminousWanderer »

Offline LuminousWanderer

Re: Some Basic Questions
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2018, 06:16:54 PM »
How are we all wrong? I'm intrigued

We've already gone over this and the relevant part of the thread was complex.  I can't go over it again, as I can barely even remember what I said.  If you look at the comments from Angelo222 and even John, on this point, it seems the farmhouse was locked from the inside, so that being the case the culprit can't have been a third party other than under the direction of Bamber.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 08:35:10 PM by Holly Goodhead »

Offline LuminousWanderer

Re: Some Basic Questions
« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2018, 06:18:31 PM »
I have looked at the logs in the past and IMO they are internal messages about 1 tel call from JB.  As I said given how events unfolded on 7th Aug I'm pretty certain officers would be aware if NB called EP.  A large number of officers were deployed to WHF including senior personnel, firearms and air response.  Given this backdrop I'm sure word would get round NB called EP but not a word. 

As requested, can you please produce a copy of the logs you are relying on?

Offline LuminousWanderer

Re: Some Basic Questions
« Reply #58 on: March 21, 2018, 06:19:52 PM »
This continually dragged out nonsense claiming Neville phoned the police is rather pathetic.  Had such a call been made the person who received it would have said so long ago.  We have all looked at the call logs which went from the civilian controller in the communications suite to police HQ, there is no mystery about it yet some still try to muddy the waters.

Then, as requested above, let's see the logs.  Just post a link to the documents you rely on in forming this opinion. 

I have also asked whether there are statements from the relevant police or emergency operators.  Are there?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 06:23:05 PM by LuminousWanderer »

Offline LuminousWanderer

Re: Some Basic Questions
« Reply #59 on: March 21, 2018, 06:20:30 PM »
Post the links to the telephone logs on which you rely, then I will look at them.