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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => The Disappearance of Portuguese youngster Joana Cipriano (8) from the village of Figueira, near Portimão, Algarve, on 12 September 2004. => Topic started by: John on November 30, 2013, 08:23:50 PM
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A look at the detailed Supreme Court Decision in the Joana Cipriano case.
http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
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What exactly is the forensic evidence in this case?
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What exactly is the forensic evidence in this case?
What do you mean by forensic evidence?
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What exactly is the forensic evidence in this case?
Mostly relates to the detection of human blood, semen and chemicals used for cleaning in the family home.
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Witness AA3, at around 8.30/8.40 p.m., saw CC [Joana Cipriano] walking up the stairs near the market, into the direction of her home, with a bag, a sign that she was returning from shopping (and we know that she did the shopping, from the deposition of witness NN). This witness, who was smoking at the window, stayed at the window for some time and verified that there was no movement on location, nor did she see any cars, or heard any screams. This means that, according to the rules of experience, and given the fact that the route is short, what is normal is that the minor returned home. And there is no doubt that CC arrived at home and that it was then that the arguidos hit her. Such is clear from the reconstitution file that has been appended to the process at pages 273 and following, namely from the photographs on pages 282, 284, 285, 286 , 287, 291 and 292, with the contents of said reconstitution file being confirmed by inspectors CC3 and CC4, who were present during the event and described the actions that were practised by arguido AA [João Cipriano] during said reconstitution.
Bit by bit...
This means that, according to the rules of experience, and given the fact that the route is short, what is normal is that the minor returned home.
Well, yes, most children do get back home, thankfully, after running a short errand in a village, except for those who don't.
Then we get that:
And there is no doubt that CC arrived at home
What is that certainty based on?
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Witness AA3, at around 8.30/8.40 p.m., saw CC [Joana Cipriano] walking up the stairs near the market, into the direction of her home, with a bag, a sign that she was returning from shopping (and we know that she did the shopping, from the deposition of witness NN). This witness, who was smoking at the window, stayed at the window for some time and verified that there was no movement on location, nor did she see any cars, or heard any screams. This means that, according to the rules of experience, and given the fact that the route is short, what is normal is that the minor returned home. And there is no doubt that CC arrived at home and that it was then that the arguidos hit her. Such is clear from the reconstitution file that has been appended to the process at pages 273 and following, namely from the photographs on pages 282, 284, 285, 286 , 287, 291 and 292, with the contents of said reconstitution file being confirmed by inspectors CC3 and CC4, who were present during the event and described the actions that were practised by arguido AA [João Cipriano] during said reconstitution.
Bit by bit...
This means that, according to the rules of experience, and given the fact that the route is short, what is normal is that the minor returned home.
Well, yes, most children do get back home, thankfully, after running a short errand in a village, except for those who don't.
Then we get that:
And there is no doubt that CC arrived at home
What is that certainty based on?
Strange how she was seen by several witness...................Until after the church, when she would have had to pass many houses and nobody saw her on this second half of her journey ???
Forensics
Blood if I recall was only known to be human and animal but not from whom it came
Semen was explained by lodger who had his girlfriend stay over
also by the supermarket lady who took her to Hosp with cough, had the doc check her out for abuse......Neg
washing material ....proved she washed the floor etc
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/suspeita-de-violacao-da-menina
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I simply can't find anything to convince me that she actually got home that evening. 8(8-))
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I simply can't find anything to convince me that she actually got home that evening. 8(8-))
Well if you choose to ignore the fact that her shoes and flip flops were all accounted for, the shopping was in the house and she was seen after she left the church on her way home...
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Well if you choose to ignore the fact that her shoes and flip flops were all accounted for, the shopping was in the house and she was seen after she left the church on her way home...
I'm not choosing to ignore anything, John, despite your assumptions to the contrary.
- "Her shoes and flip flops were all accounted for" - by whom? One person who didn't even live with the family, anyone else? She'd been to a birthday party that day - it's plausible that she'd changed footwear between going home and running the errand. I can't find anything in the SC document as to whether the café lady or the ciggie lady were asked about what footwear she was wearing when they saw her. I might have missed it, however. Could you confirm?
- You and Angelo keep mentioning that her shopping was found in the house, but by whom and when? I haven't found that either.
- Yes, she was apparently last seen on her way home climbing steps near a market... whatever that means.
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I'm not choosing to ignore anything, John, despite your assumptions to the contrary.
- "Her shoes and flip flops were all accounted for" - by whom? One person who didn't even live with the family, anyone else? She'd been to a birthday party that day - it's plausible that she'd changed footwear between going home and running the errand. I can't find anything in the SC document as to whether the café lady or the ciggie lady were asked about what footwear she was wearing when they saw her. I might have missed it, however. Could you confirm?
- You and Angelo keep mentioning that her shopping was found in the house, but by whom and when? I haven't found that either.
- Yes, she was apparently last seen on her way home climbing steps near a market... whatever that means.
The witness of Ofélia Santos, owner of the cafe where joana went for the purchases on the night that she disappeared, already not long when Marcia spoke. "I wanted to know if she recalls what joana wore dress? AND footwear? The colour of the shoes." "A jacket, a skirt and I don't remember the rest," replied the witness.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/atualidade/irmaos-nem-trocam-olhares
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Thanks, Anna, so the café lady was asked, but didn't remember. If you find anything about the ciggie lady, that would be helpful.
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Thanks, Anna, so the café lady was asked, but didn't remember. If you find anything about the ciggie lady, that would be helpful.
Sorry Carana,
It seems he wasn't asked.
The witness neighbour, reported that on 12 September, by 8h 30m / 8h 40m, was the window of his house, smoking, when he saw Joane, with a bag in hand, go up the stairs in the proximity of the market, towards her house. The witness said that in that place there was no movement, nor saw cars, nor heard any cry, although he stayed at the window for some time longer. SAID that there was the "Feast of Cockles", which occurred far from that location and for that reason there was nobody there.
The witness AA4 ? said he had seen the Joana on the night, but could not specify the hours.
I am still puzzled by the......
1. "stairs" I think it might be a translation error It could mean road or pavement
2."Market" I think is probably the minimarket across from Celia
and where are these witnesses who saw her by the church or are they the same two witnesses ?
I think they must be
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According to Astro's translation concerning AA3 (on the previous page), AA3 was translated as being a woman. However, rereading the original, I can't tell if it's a male or female witness, as the feminine "testamunha" is used for either gender and I can't find any other clue at the moment to verify the gender. The same for AA4.
Anyway, that doesn't seem to be important.
"... a subir as escadas na proximidade do mercado, em direcção a casa".
To me, that really does seem to be saying climbing the steps near the market, heading towards home. If there was indeed a mini-market near Café Celia with a few steps nearby, that might be it.
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Anyway, despite what seems to be very flimsy evidence that she actually got home... let's move on to the supposed living-room massacre,
The matter that was considered to be proved in items aa), ab), ac), ad), ae), af), ag), ah) ai), aj) al), am), an), ap), aah), aai), aaj) and aam) was based on the deposition of witnesses AA3, CC3, CC4, DD, CC8, II, DD1 , MM and BB1, on the reconstitution files and on the search and apprehension files, as well as on the subsequent forensic exam, all interpreted under the light of the rules of experience.
Witness AA3, at around 8.30/8.40 p.m., saw CC [Joana Cipriano] walking up the stairs near the market, into the direction of her home, with a bag, a sign that she was returning from shopping (and we know that she did the shopping, from the deposition of witness NN). This witness, who was smoking at the window, stayed at the window for some time and verified that there was no movement on location, nor did she see any cars, or heard any screams. This means that, according to the rules of experience, and given the fact that the route is short, what is normal is that the minor returned home. And there is no doubt that CC arrived at home and that it was then that the arguidos hit her. Such is clear from the reconstitution file that has been appended to the process at pages 273 and following, namely from the photographs on pages 282, 284, 285, 286 , 287, 291 and 292, with the contents of said reconstitution file being confirmed by inspectors CC3 and CC4, who were present during the event and described the actions that were practised by arguido AA [João Cipriano] during said reconstitution.
In that reconstitution, the arguido exemplifies the slaps that he gave CC in the face, the spot where she hit her head, another spot where she hit her head following the aggression from the mother, he showed how the minor bled from the nose, temple and mouth, exemplified the minor’s fall, how they verified that the minor was effectively dead and how the co-arguida BB [Leonor Cipriano] proceeded to clean the blood spots, with the help of a bucket and a mop.
On the other hand, the actions that are part of the reconstitution act are compatible with the blood traces that were collected in the living room (it should be noted that the reconstitution takes place in the living room), as a result of the search and apprehension act that was carried out on the 22th of September 2004 (cfr. pages 173 and 233 and following), which mentions that traces were collected on the floor, near the entrance door, inside and outside, near the interior electrical switch on the right hand side of the entrance door, near the entrance on the left hand side of the sofa, on a pair of trainers belonging to MM [Leandro] Silva that were located between the sofas, on a mop (handle) and its bucket.
These traces, according to forensics exams, are of human blood and of human and animal blood (cfr. page 235), and although insufficient to establish whom they belong to through the DNA (pages 1780 and following), they reveal that something terrible happened in that living room, something that originated the existence of human blood on the floor and on the walls, which was cleaned with a mop and a bucket; the blood that was on the mop was located on the handle, revealing that the person who used the mop had in turn his or her hands dirty with blood. Therefore, the traces that were collected in the living room reinforce the reliability of the reconstitution.
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It is traditional to have the market in the middle of the village and the only location which fits the bill in Figueira is by the recently rebuilt church.
The only steps in the village between the Cipriano former home and Celia's Cafe are again located at the front and rear of the church site which is slightly elevated.
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Very possible John, but she would be heading in the wrong direction if she went up stairs to church or whatever was there previously . Also says stairs heading to market and home. There probably has been a lot of building completed since then, which means there could have been stairs somewhere and in fact, if you look on the map there are disused steps to the side of the minimarket but the direction would be wrong for home and the witnesses who saw her heading in direction of market, church and home.
The witnesses must have to been able to see the church and market. There is a space at the side of the mini market, big enough for a market (where the old stairs unused are) but I think we just have to forget the stairs for now, which are obviously no longer there. Also noticed when in map view that it shows a road or walkway going down the side of the minimarket. complicated indeed, but it will sort itself out eventually, fingers crossed!
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I think there are too many threads to this subject now. We are all over the place, but I will have to post the same in each. The mini market is across the road from Celia only celias step and the kerb to go up to get there and she would have to cross to have a path or use the steps. Who mentioned the church ? its not in any statements
OK Carana Times:
Timeline
Times Left home around 8 h pm ???
Arrived at Celia around 8h 20pm / 8h 30pm
After shopping left Celia around 8h.30Pm / 8h.35pm
Last time Seen, in proximity to market going to stairs that led to her home 8h.30PM / 8h 40pm
Earliest possible to get home 8.35pm to 8.40
(I think these are the same witnesses who saw her approaching market So must be near market/steps and opp side of road)
Leandro and pal in Celias at around 9 .00PM according
to Celia
Joa leaves the house 9.10/9.15
Joao arrives at Celias at about 9. 20PM according to celia lady
They all go home immediately 9. 25pm according to Leandro
Leona and Joao go to Celia around 10. 30PM according to celia
leaving at approx 11.pm to go home and according to Celias
John goes home to sit with babies
Leandro and mate go to search approx 10.00 pm Leonora joins them 11 pm ish
Celia goes to their home to see if joana is back 12mn
Leonor, Leandro and pal are just returning 12 mn and decide to go search some more with Celia at 12.30 ish
Leonor and Joao’s brother, is around as well… At Celia, church where Leonor saw GNR,
cockle feast and their home I believe
Leonor and johns brother sees them all around 11.30
Celia helps search and phones police approx 12.30/40
Leonora informs GNR near the church. who tells her to report it tomorrow
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If Joana got home earliest 8.35 the evil deed would be done 9.15 latest, this includes getting cleaned and changed before Joao left for celias 9.15 latest.
Or Joana got home 8.40/5 and still would be 9.15 latest
unless Carlos’s times were correct and Celia’s and witnesses were wrong of course as there was a 30 min difference
30 to 35 mins to argue with the child, kill her, decide what to do, and argue with each other, conceal the body, clean the walls and floors and get washed and changed , not to mention laundry and clothing concealment. Nah !
Even an extra 30 mins wouldn’t convince me
And when the men got back from Celia at 9.25/35 , Leandro and Carlos noticed nothing different about the house clean wise, which would have, freshly washed floors, surely?
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8.35/8.40 to 8.40/8.45 trying to pull the child back and argue
8.40/8.45 to 8.50/8.55 hitting the child until she fell lifeless
8.50/8.55 to 9.00/9.05 Argue with each other and decide what to do
9.00/9.05 to 9.10/9.15 Conceal Body
9.10/9.15 to 9.15/9.20 Washed and changed
These are the shortest times that I believe possible
Now Joao has to leave at 9.15 the latest, to be at celia for 9.20
Leonor is left to wash, change, clean the walls, the floors and conceal bloody laundry before the men return at 9.30 ?????????????
When was all the really macabre stuff suppose to happen ??????????????????
OK I have checked back.....................According to 2006 appeal it was when Joao went back to the house at 9.30 ish,after waylaying Leandro and Carlos who then supposedly had gone searching ???????
but I believe (according to statements) that they all went home first and then they went with Leonor, searching for Joana
This cant be right !!!
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There is some old steps already being broken up to replace with a road which is down the side of the minimarket. If she went this way she would be at the back of the church when seen for last time
http://goo.gl/maps/gSUGr
http://goo.gl/maps/b9zIi
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So still no real evidence. Only what The PJ presumed.
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So still no real evidence. Only what The PJ presumed.
Hi Eleanor, No, Still cant find any proof of a murder, by Leonor
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Hi Eleanor, No, Still cant find any proof of a murder, by Leonor
No one can, Anna, because there isn't any.
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Apparently she was seen near the church, but the only reference to that siting is in a newspaper. No witness statements that I have seen
If she didn't go past the church, but took a back shortcut by the steps by the market and over fields, it would bring her out by some steps going down the back, to her house.
I must add that although new houses were being built in that area in 2010 , I doubt there was anything but wasteland and not a safe route for a youngster in 2004. It knocks about 100 meters off the trip home.
http://goo.gl/maps/sfuIE
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Leandro reckoned he and MM got to the Café at around 9pm, MM reckoned it was around 9:30/10 pm. Anyway, João went to find them and both Leandro and MM went back home. It's not clear if João went back as well at that point, as it just says "they went back home", although it seems so as Leandro suggested that Leonor check with neighbours (he says he doesn't know if she did or not), while he and MM went off to the fair area to check there (seemingly split up to check different parts), and João stayed at home with the kids. According to MM, the two of them then went back home again and set off again with Leonor. It was when they were about to go back home yet again, that the Café lady asked if they'd phoned the police (which they hadn't) and so she did.
Both of them state that they didn't notice anything strange when they went home, and MM adds that he didn't notice that anything had been cleaned.
According to one of the GNR reports, the officer talked to Leonor, Leandro and a third person (which I assume to be MM).
II (Leandro)
Disse também a testemunha que foi à "Pastelaria Célia" com o MM por volta das 21h e que a dada altura apareceu ali o arguido AA a dizer que a CC tinha ido à pastelaria às 8h e ainda não tinha aparecido. Eles foram para casa (não achou nada de estranho na casa) e a testemunha pediu à BB para ir procurar a CC nos vizinhos (mas não sabe se ela foi efectivamente) enquanto ele foi à festa do berbigão ver se a CC por lá estaria e o MM foi dar uma volta por ali a ver se via a menor. O arguido AA ficou em casa a tomar conta dos filhos da testemunha. A testemunha ficou algum tempo na festa do berbigão mas havia muita confusão e veio embora; voltou depois à festa com a BB e o MM à procura da CC e quando estavam a regressar a casa apareceu a D. Ofélia, a saber da CC e a perguntar se já tinham chamado a GNR. Disseram-lhe que não e ela telefonou.
MM (the one who lived with them, friend or half-brother)
Chegaram à "Pastelaria ..." por volta das 21h 30m / 22h, onde beberam uma cerveja ou duas e depois chegou o arguido AA que lhes perguntou se tinham visto a CC. Dirigiram-se de imediato para casa. A casa não tinha nada estranho, estava normal, a testemunha também não notou qualquer arrumação ou limpeza. A BB disse-lhes que não sabia da CC e o II decidiu ir à festa do berbigão procurá-la, enquanto a testemunha foi dar uma volta pelo outro lado. Tornaram a ir para casa e decidiram ir de novo à festa, desta vez acompanhados da arguida BB, enquanto o AA ficava em casa com as crianças. Demoraram uma hora ou duas e antes de irem para casa foram comprar bolos para comer.
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This is the GNR chappy. He talked to them near the church and Leonor apparently explained that she'd sent Joana on an errand to the Café and that the last time she was seen was also near the church, whereas the witness actually said near the market, but they are presumably both in the same area.
A testemunha AA6, militar da GNR, declarou que nessa noite decorria o festival do berbigão na Figueira e que após a chamada da D. NN encontrou-se com a arguida BB, o II e outro indivíduo, junto à igreja, tendo a mãe contado que a CC tinha desaparecido, referindo que a tinha mandado ao café e que a última vez que a menor tinha sido vista tinha sido ali, também junto à igreja. A testemunha disse-lhe que no dia seguinte teria que ir ao Posto em Portimão formalizar a queixa. Declarou ainda a testemunha que a mãe não aparentava muita preocupação para um caso destes.
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Yes, I think when it was said "near the church" it was just to give an idea of the locality. Celia lady said 9pm Carlos said 9.30, but according to the Appeal (giving details of the court case) Joao went to the café to delay Leandro who was due back home at 9.30 pm, so probably Celia lady was correct.
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Yes, I think when it was said "near the church" it was just to give an idea of the locality. Celia lady said 9pm Carlos said 9.30, but according to the Appeal (giving details of the court case) Joao went to the café to delay Leandro who was due back home at 9.30 pm, so probably Celia lady was correct.
I'm not sure that he went to delay them, and I haven't seen anything stating at what time Leandro was actually expected back, although I might not be looking in the right place.
Celia lady had said Joana was there around 8:20/8:30. The two guys turned up around 1/2 hour later, so around 9 pm. João turned up around 20 mins after that, so that would put it at around 9:20 ish. Leonor turned up over an hour after they left to ask about Joana. She says something odd - that João was with her, but he'd stayed outside. The other two guys say that he stayed home.
Voltando ao dia 12, disse que meia hora depois da CC sair, chegaram à pastelaria o II e o MM. Estiveram lá cerca de 20 minutos, até que apareceu o arguido AA, que se dirigiu a eles e estiveram a conversar. A testemunha não se apercebeu de que falaram e nenhum deles lhe perguntou pela CC. Mais tarde, mais de uma hora depois deles saírem, apareceu no estabelecimento a arguida BB, a qual vinha acompanhada pelo irmão AA (que ficou à espera na rua) e que lhe perguntou pela CC, dizendo então que ela ainda não tinha chegado a casa.
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I'm not sure that he went to delay them, and I haven't seen anything stating at what time Leandro was actually expected back, although I might not be looking in the right place.
Celia lady had said Joana was there around 8:20/8:30. The two guys turned up around 1/2 hour later, so around 9 pm. João turned up around 20 mins after that, so that would put it at around 9:20 ish. Leonor turned up over an hour after they left to ask about Joana. She says something odd - that João was with her, but he'd stayed outside. The other two guys say that he stayed home.
Voltando ao dia 12, disse que meia hora depois da CC sair, chegaram à pastelaria o II e o MM. Estiveram lá cerca de 20 minutos, até que apareceu o arguido AA, que se dirigiu a eles e estiveram a conversar. A testemunha não se apercebeu de que falaram e nenhum deles lhe perguntou pela CC. Mais tarde, mais de uma hora depois deles saírem, apareceu no estabelecimento a arguida BB, a qual vinha acompanhada pelo irmão AA (que ficou à espera na rua) e que lhe perguntou pela CC, dizendo então que ela ainda não tinha chegado a casa.
16- That the defendant John has time to have a beer with the Leandro and Carlos, in "Pastries ... ", to delay the return of them to home; = as the appeal 2006
The prosecuting was based on Joao going over to the café to delay the return home, which was expected around 9.30pm, while Leonor cleaned up after killing the child . However in the 2006 appeal it said that they went straight away to search, so a bit of a contradiction ,somewhere there, or I missed the plot
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I find the assumptions totally bizarre.
What evidence is there that:
a. she got home
b. witnessed Leonor and her brother having sex on the living-room sofa (when they both knew that any other occupant could have walked in at any moment)
c. Leonor whacked her.. that traces of her on walls or anything else were found
d. there was evidence of cleaning when Leandro and MM came home
e. they hadn't tried to check with relatives / neighbours if she might have been with them
f. Leonor had mistreated Joana
g. she had been chopped up and stuffed into a small freezer which no other occupant of the house would have noticed
h. that a spot of unidentifiable human blood on the back of a small freezer drawer, which may or may not have been recent, corroborates that there had been an attempt to stuff her in it when anyone could have entered the house at any time.
Attempting to stuff her in it would have required taking out all the drawers and their contents. I'm not aware that anyone noticed empty freezer drawers, nor noticed the absence of food that may have disappeared to make room.
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This is the GNR chappy. He talked to them near the church and Leonor apparently explained that she'd sent Joana on an errand to the Café and that the last time she was seen was also near the church, whereas the witness actually said near the market, but they are presumably both in the same area.
A testemunha AA6, militar da GNR, declarou que nessa noite decorria o festival do berbigão na Figueira e que após a chamada da D. NN encontrou-se com a arguida BB, o II e outro indivíduo, junto à igreja, tendo a mãe contado que a CC tinha desaparecido, referindo que a tinha mandado ao café e que a última vez que a menor tinha sido vista tinha sido ali, também junto à igreja. A testemunha disse-lhe que no dia seguinte teria que ir ao Posto em Portimão formalizar a queixa. Declarou ainda a testemunha que a mãe não aparentava muita preocupação para um caso destes.
A PT friend tells me that Figueira is not big enough to have a market, so I am wondering:
1) if there was one day a week when, maybe a solitary fish van came ... or a meat van came .... and parked on the sizeable plaza where the pretty modern Figueira church stands.? And that is called the market?
or,
2) As it was a festival day, was there a special once a year market on the church plaza?
I stayed in a small place in France where the church car park had an occasional van parked selling, I think, meat.
I think you are right, Carana. That there is no real market in Figueira
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A PT friend tells me that Figueira is not big enough to have a market, so I am wondering:
1) if there was one day a week when, maybe a solitary fish van came ... or a meat van came .... and parked on the sizeable plaza where the pretty modern Figueira church stands.? And that is called the market?
or,
2) As it was a festival day, was there a special once a year market on the church plaza?
I stayed in a small place in France where the church car park had an occasional van parked selling, I think, meat.
I think you are right, Carana. That there is no real market in Figueira
There may well be a market place near the church. Or the reference is to a small grocery shop nearby. I don't have a problem with whatever it meant... my only question concerned where was she actually seen for the last time.
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That is a very good point, Carana. What happened to the food in The Freezer? No one keeps a freezer just for storing chopped up dead bodies. Was there any frozen food in the freezer when The PJ took it away?
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I find the assumptions totally bizarre.
What evidence is there that:
a. she got home
b. witnessed Leonor and her brother having sex on the living-room sofa (when they both knew that any other occupant could have walked in at any moment)
c. Leonor whacked her.. that traces of her on walls or anything else were found
d. there was evidence of cleaning when Leandro and MM came home
e. they hadn't tried to check with relatives / neighbours if she might have been with them
f. Leonor had mistreated Joana
g. she had been chopped up and stuffed into a small freezer which no other occupant of the house would have noticed
h. that a spot of unidentifiable human blood on the back of a small freezer drawer, which may or may not have been recent, corroborates that there had been an attempt to stuff her in it when anyone could have entered the house at any time.
Attempting to stuff her in it would have required taking out all the drawers and their contents. I'm not aware that anyone noticed empty freezer drawers, nor noticed the absence of food that may have disappeared to make room.
Excellent observations 8@??)(
I couldn't agree more
Also that with all the coming and going, no-one saw the blood stains, nor smelled the petrol / cleaning fluids .... and what about the smell of blood and death?
It all sounds so phoney
ETA:
I believe that she was seen for the last time going up the main front steps to that pretty church. Those curved steps were on her direct route. Only two, maybe three houses, had decent views of those steps and those are immediately, or close to those steps on the eastern side of the church plaza in front of the steps.
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I believe that she was seen for the last time going up the main front steps to that pretty church. Those curved steps were on her direct route. Only two, maybe three houses, had decent views of those steps and those are immediately, or close to those steps on the eastern side of the church plaza in front of the steps.
The plaza is approx 60 metres deep (east to west) and 50 metres wide (north to south).
Now the interesting thing about this plaza is that it has only public buildings to the North, the west and a large portion of the south. In other words, in the evenings, most of it is not overlooked. At the northern corner in the bulge there is what i take to be the village infant/junior school. On careful inspection, you will see it has a sand pit, coconuts for the birds, lawns, high netting all the way round .... and if the roof is anything to go by, it has two classrooms + and entry room and a nother smaller room . Staff and stores?
It also has a model of a ?snowman in the one window.
That corner is well treed and out of sight of anyone in their homes. And also not on any route that many would be likely to walk or drive. There is plenty of parking space as well. I wonder where the brown camper van camped?
An ideal abduction spot it seems to me.
I wonder if Joana wandered that way around the church, eager to look at her (?old?) school en route home? ... And got abducted there, between the church and the school?
Assuming she was abducted, I wonder if it was a snatch abduction or a person she knew?
There is another ideal place that an abduction could possibly have taken place, but I defintely need images for that. Might have to wait until after Xmas
Now i have to go and write my cards and letters
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The last witnesses to see her alive Saw her approaching the steps in the proximity of the market. The only reference to being seen near the church, was by a newspaper. Since the steps and minimarket are close to the church and there are other minimarkets in Figueira, I think this is why it was reported as being close to the church.
If she had taken this shortcut, it would have been before the 2010 houses were built and a lot less safe than the main route but quicker
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The last witnesses to see her alive Saw her approaching the steps in the proximity of the market. The only reference to being seen near the church, was by a newspaper. Since the steps and minimarket are close to the church and there are other minimarkets in Figueira, I think this is why it was reported as being close to the church.
If she had taken this shortcut, it would have been before the 2010 houses were built and a lot less safe than the main route but quicker
anna, I dont think there is a market in Figueira. No mention of it on the internet .... and as I said in an earlier post a PT friend of mine says that such a small place would not have a market. Maybe there was a special fiesta market, but one would expect that to have been right at the southern edge of the village where the main cockle festival was taking place.
Also maybe there was a, say, meat or fish van parked on the church plaza once a week? But from what I am told it seems unlikely that there would have been a proper market there.
Mexilhoeira Grande, a much bigger place is only 3/4 mile away (C.F.). If there were a market then it would more likely be there. IIRC tbere is a bus service linking the two places. Also only 4 miles from the big town of Portimao with bus and rail links. Lagos is not much further away, also linked.
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anna, I dont think there is a market in Figueira. No mention of it on the internet .... and as I said in an earlier post a PT friend of mine says that such a small place would not have a market. Maybe there was a special fiesta market, but one would expect that to have been right at the southern edge of the village where the main cockle festival was taking place.
Also maybe there was a, say, meat or fish van parked on the church plaza once a week? But from what I am told it seems unlikely that there would have been a proper market there.
Mexilhoeira Grande, a much bigger place is only 3/4 mile away (C.F.). If there were a market then it would more likely be there. IIRC tbere is a bus service linking the two places. Also only 4 miles from the big town of Portimao with bus and rail links. Lagos is not much further away, also linked.
If you do a google map search on Rua de 25 abril 28 Figueira 8500-132 , it will take you to the pastelaria that Joana went to, then click on "Nearby" and type "Mercado" , it will take you to the shop and greengrocers across the road. Then go round the corner of the greengrocer's and you will see the steps, that were in the process of being broken up in the 2010 map. If you check the quickest route home , it would be that route. They are building houses behind the stairs in 2010, but it would probably be bare except for trees on her way home as the earlier aerial view will show you.
There is no mention anywhere that I can see, of her going up the church steps. The witnesses saw her going towards the steps in the proximity of the Mercado.
A newspaper said she was last seen near the church. I think this was probably for area reference only.
I have wondered why there was no witnesses to her walking home along the main road, but now know that if she used the back shortcut, she wouldn't be seen.............and wasn't!
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If you do a google map search on Rua de 25 abril 28 Figueira 8500-132 , it will take you to the pastelaria that Joana went to, then click on "Nearby" and type "Mercado" , it will take you to the shop and greengrocers across the road. Then go round the corner of the greengrocer's and you will see the steps, that were in the process of being broken up in the 2010 map. If you check the quickest route home , it would be that route. They are building houses behind the stairs in 2010, but it would probably be bare except for trees on her way home as the earlier aerial view will show you.
There is no mention anywhere that I can see, of her going up the church steps. The witnesses saw her going towards the steps in the proximity of the Mercado.
A newspaper said she was last seen near the church. I think this was probably for area reference only.
I have wondered why there was no witnesses to her walking home along the main road, but now know that if she used the back shortcut, she wouldn't be seen.............and wasn't!
That's interesting Anna, but I will be honest with you. Maybe I am looking at the wrong bit, but the land where I think you are saying the steps are broken up appears virtually horizontal to me.
I used to teach building and landscape perspective and the land on which the shop and the bungalow stand appear pretty flat and horizontal, front to back, to me. I dont understand what the breeze block structure is all about, which seems to slope oddly ... and that throws the eye and mental cognizance imo.
Additionally I wonder whether she would walk home after dark along what appear to be unlit pathways.
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Hi Sadie,
I think you may have the wrong bearing. Yes it would be darkish, but summer at 8.30pm, I'm not sure.
It does however fit in with the Mercado, café and steps. maybe there was lights somewhere and she was seen by witnesses, so who knows. Sunset was at 7.50 pm that day, so it would be getting dark
https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Rua+25+de+Abril&daddr=Rua+Martim+Afonso+Pacheco+Gracias+Arquitecto&hl=en&ll=37.165032,-8.601968&spn=0.002552,0.005284&sll=37.164545,-8.602418&sspn=0.002535,0.005284&geocode=FXQYNwIdB8B8_w%3BFbUTNwIdkLh8_w&t=h&dirflg=w&mra=mift&mrsp=0&sz=18&z=18
Suggested routes
350 m, 4 mins
Rua 25 de Abril and Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto
==================
Walking directions to Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto
Rua 25 de Abril
1. Head south on Rua 25 de Abril
23 m
2. Turn right toward Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto
91 m
3. Turn left toward Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto
160 m
4. Turn right onto Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto
7 m
Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto
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Hi Sadie,
I think you may have the wrong bearing. Yes it would be darkish, but summer at 8.30pm, I'm not sure.
It does however fit in with the Mercado, café and steps. maybe there was lights somewhere and she was seen by witnesses, so who knows. Sunset was at 7.50 pm that day, so it would be getting dark
https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Rua+25+de+Abril&daddr=Rua+Martim+Afonso+Pacheco+Gracias+Arquitecto&hl=en&ll=37.165032,-8.601968&spn=0.002552,0.005284&sll=37.164545,-8.602418&sspn=0.002535,0.005284&geocode=FXQYNwIdB8B8_w%3BFbUTNwIdkLh8_w&t=h&dirflg=w&mra=mift&mrsp=0&sz=18&z=18
Suggested routes
350 m, 4 mins
Rua 25 de Abril and Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto
==================
Walking directions to Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto
Rua 25 de Abril
1. Head south on Rua 25 de Abril
23 m
2. Turn right toward Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto
91 m
3. Turn left toward Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto
160 m
4. Turn right onto Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto
7 m
Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto
You have done a lot of useful work anna.
Three things tho:
1) Maybe i am not looking in the correct place but, I cant see the steps you mention. Are you sure that you are not mixing up the lines where seperate slabs of concrete meet with other slabs of concrete with steps?
2) Where you show the marker for home, it is at the front of the house. Joana and family lived in what appears to have been "a built on" block at the rear.
Having had a good look at the front of the house and the plan, I am not at all sure that Joana could get to her home via that front entrance, where your marker is. I think the whole width of the front view of that house is one residence, maybe two, but seemingly no way into Joanas home via the front.
If she had to take a further walk along Rua Martim Alfonso Pacheco Garcia Arquitecto in an easterly direction, then turn right and right again, she would reach the front of her home by road. But it would add a further 210 metres to her journey.
That makes a total of 350 +210 = 560 metres.
3) It has been said that a neighbour smoking spotted her going up the church steps. If she was seen going up those steps it is on a more likely route IMO for her to be returning home. Also it was reported somewhere that when she was at the church she had 200 metres to go on her journey. That ties up with the route that John shows. The total distance then is about 400 - 420 metres, as stated by the PJ.
Nightfall
I dont know if I am right in this but I have the impression that it falls dark about 10-15 minutes after sunset in the UK, so assuming that the times are acccurate, it seems that Joana left home at dusk. It is doubtful that the times were absolutely accurate tho
Almost certainly she came home in the dark.
Plenty of opportunity to abduct her along the route you suggest anna.
Opportunity to abduct her at the church too if she decided to go via the northern route by the ?school past it, as mentioned in an earlier post
There is a third place where an abduction could likely have taken place, but it needs images.
Later maybe.
I wonder where that brown and cream camper van was parked? The one that had been parked for several days but vanished when Joana vanished ... and re-appeared abandoned in nearby PdL ?
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Hi Sadie,
You are correct The last map showed a road that was in front of the road on which stood the house. http://goo.gl/maps/6PkpC
I, however on the map on my last post, showed a road with railings which when they came to an end were much lower than the house on that street, so It is possible a child could walk down there to her house at the back.
The fastest route direct to her door being http://goo.gl/maps/nEDXA Still a rather unsafe route for a child.
I believe the stairs were located near the Mercado ( single supermarket/greengrocers/ shop) The map is 6 years old and it is the only access to the road behind that is close to the Mercado.
I think the stairs may have gone up then down ,at a time when the side ground area was raised.
The area I suspect to have been stairs also has a warning sign on it, as it is being dismantled, to make way for a road.
From 2006 Appeal
Witness statement:
The witness AA3 neighbour, reported that on 12 September, by 8h 30m / 8h 40m, was the window of his house, smoking, when he saw Joana, with a bag in hand, go up the stairs in the proximity of the market, towards her house. The witness said that in that place there was no movement, nor saw cars, nor heard any cry, although he stayed at the window for some time longer. He said, that there was the "Feast of Cockles", which occurred far from that location and for that reason there was nobody there.
The witness AA4 ? said he had seen the Joana on the night, but could not specify the hours.
A testemunha AA3, relatou que no dia 12 de Setembro, pelas 8h 30m / 8h 40m, estava a janela de sua casa, a fumar, quando viu a CC, com um saco na mão, a subir as escadas na proximidade do mercado, em direcção a casa. A testemunha disse que naquele local não havia movimento, não viu carros, nem ouviu qualquer grito, embora se tenha mantido à janela durante mais algum tempo. Referiu que decorria a "Festa do Berbigão", mas ocorria longe daquele local e por ali não havia ninguém.
A testemunha AA4 disse ter visto a CC nessa noite, mas não conseguiu precisar as horas.
http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
I have read and downloaded all the CM news from the Joana case and don't know anything about a camper van, which I am sure you must have read somewhere else. I would love a link to this new (to me) information.
I hope you managed to get all your cards done, I was late, because I had to wait for my granddaughter to do them. Done now, so I can stop worrying ?{)(**
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I pointed out to you that you overlooked what was actually said in the report about blood being found in several places in the freezer which you felt was ok to describe as a speck of blood...you ignored this observation/comment of mine and dashed off to talk about whose blood it was...thats all....
According the PJ coordinator, there was only one speck of unidentified blood. And no indication as to when it may have been deposited. Nor can I find any logical explanation as to why an unidentified, undated, speck of blood would indicate that there had even been an attempt to stuff her in a small family freezer.
A testemunha CC3 , coordenador de investigação criminal da P.J., declarou que (....) A testemunha confirmou também o auto de busca e apreensão junto aos autos de fls. 578 a 580 (arca frigorífica) e que no interior da arca foi recolhido um vestígio hemático da espécie humana, realçando que este vestígio de sangue humano foi recolhido no interior da gaveta, concretamente no painel de trás da segunda gaveta da arca.
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According the PJ coordinator, there was only one speck of unidentified blood. And no indication as to when it may have been deposited. Nor can I find any logical explanation as to why an unidentified, undated, speck of blood would indicate that there had even been an attempt to stuff her in a small family freezer.
A testemunha CC3 , coordenador de investigação criminal da P.J., declarou que (....) A testemunha confirmou também o auto de busca e apreensão junto aos autos de fls. 578 a 580 (arca frigorífica) e que no interior da arca foi recolhido um vestígio hemático da espécie humana, realçando que este vestígio de sangue humano foi recolhido no interior da gaveta, concretamente no painel de trás da segunda gaveta da arca.
8@??)( Brilliant observations Carana
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Hi Sadie,
You are correct The last map showed a road that was in front of the road on which stood the house. http://goo.gl/maps/6PkpC
I, however on the map on my last post, showed a road with railings which when they came to an end were much lower than the house on that street, so It is possible a child could walk down there to her house at the back.
The fastest route direct to her door being http://goo.gl/maps/nEDXA Still a rather unsafe route for a child.
I believe the stairs were located near the Mercado ( single supermarket/greengrocers/ shop) The map is 6 years old and it is the only access to the road behind that is close to the Mercado.
I think the stairs may have gone up then down ,at a time when the side ground area was raised.
The area I suspect to have been stairs also has a warning sign on it, as it is being dismantled, to make way for a road.
From 2006 Appeal
Witness statement:
The witness AA3 neighbour, reported that on 12 September, by 8h 30m / 8h 40m, was the window of his house, smoking, when he saw Joana, with a bag in hand, go up the stairs in the proximity of the market, towards her house. The witness said that in that place there was no movement, nor saw cars, nor heard any cry, although he stayed at the window for some time longer. He said, that there was the "Feast of Cockles", which occurred far from that location and for that reason there was nobody there.
The witness AA4 ? said he had seen the Joana on the night, but could not specify the hours.
A testemunha AA3, relatou que no dia 12 de Setembro, pelas 8h 30m / 8h 40m, estava a janela de sua casa, a fumar, quando viu a CC, com um saco na mão, a subir as escadas na proximidade do mercado, em direcção a casa. A testemunha disse que naquele local não havia movimento, não viu carros, nem ouviu qualquer grito, embora se tenha mantido à janela durante mais algum tempo. Referiu que decorria a "Festa do Berbigão", mas ocorria longe daquele local e por ali não havia ninguém.
A testemunha AA4 disse ter visto a CC nessa noite, mas não conseguiu precisar as horas.
http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
I have read and downloaded all the CM news from the Joana case and don't know anything about a camper van, which I am sure you must have read somewhere else. I would love a link to this new (to me) information.
I hope you managed to get all your cards done, I was late, because I had to wait for my granddaughter to do them. Done now, so I can stop worrying ?{)(**
anna, this requires a thought out response and will take time, so hopefully after Christmas I will find that time.
Yep cards completed in time for second class mail Yippee !
Still fighting the clock tho because I am cooking the meal, and there is loads of preparation. Haven't wrapped any pressies yet, ... one or two yet to buy ... and somehow need to find the time to deliver.
Jeez, I am going to give Christmas a miss next year.
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According the PJ coordinator, there was only one speck of unidentified blood. And no indication as to when it may have been deposited. Nor can I find any logical explanation as to why an unidentified, undated, speck of blood would indicate that there had even been an attempt to stuff her in a small family freezer.
A testemunha CC3 , coordenador de investigação criminal da P.J., declarou que (....) A testemunha confirmou também o auto de busca e apreensão junto aos autos de fls. 578 a 580 (arca frigorífica) e que no interior da arca foi recolhido um vestígio hemático da espécie humana, realçando que este vestígio de sangue humano foi recolhido no interior da gaveta, concretamente no painel de trás da segunda gaveta da arca.
There is no logical explanation carana.
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Agreed
No logical explanation how they came to that conclusion with just one spec of unidentified, undated blood.
But we have it from Amarals theories, dont we? Amaral who has decided that Madeleine died in 5A. Another of his theories.
Amaral who has a criminal conviction for perjury, lies, and apparantly his mate Cristavao, or so I believe. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Christavao is allegedly awaiting trial on seven rather nasty charges... but, of course, is innocent until proven guilty. Seven charges >@@(*&)
Yep, I believe it wholeheartedly. How about you ?
That spec of unidentified, undated, blood is derfinitely proof that Joanas body was crammed in that tiny freezer, doncha think?.
Amarals and Cristavaos theory "proved" it, didn't it? Now we obviously have every reason to trust them, dont we ? 8(0(* 8)-)))
Maybe a bit of torture helped it along too?
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An excerpt from Astro's summary of Cristovão's book:
During one of the interrogations, João, who has mood shifts, ends up confessing voluntarily to having beaten Joana, who hit a wall with her head and collapsed dead on the floor. He says he was having s.e.x with Leonor while the girl had been out on her errand, but Joana returned and saw them. She said she would tell Leandro about what she saw. The child tried to run out of the house, but was dragged back in by João and Leonor. Leonor slapped her, and then João also slapped the girl. The child flew against a wall, bumped her head and dropped dead on the floor. He then cut up her body and stored it in plastic bags in the family's freezer. Cristóvão, the detective who is interrogating him, asks some specific questions about the process of cutting. João's answers chillingly detail the process, including correct information about the difficulty in separating certain joints. He also tells Cristóvão that all 4 adults - João, Leonor, Leandro and Carlos - ended up knowing that Joana was dead, as he and Leonor showed the bags in the freezer to Leandro and Carlos when they arrived home, later that evening. João later repeats his confession in the presence of his lawyer, and duly signs it.
The detectives return to Figueira, now with a forensics team, to check whether the information that João has given them yields some traces of evidence. Their discoveries turn out to be much more than they bargained for. They discover the orange flip-flops that Joana was supposedly wearing the evening she vanished. Then they turn the uv light to the wall where João told them the child had hit her head before collapsing dead on the floor.
Her face is clearly 'drawn' on the wall, also two small hands that left a trace that goes down the wall, showing Joana's last movement. They also discover the prints of her hands on the frame of the house's outer door, that were left there at the moment when she tried to escape. João had told Cristóvão how Joana had tried to cling to the door frame, and they had to pull her back in by her legs. Everything is photographed.
On the sofa where allegedly João was having s.e.x with his sister, no traces of bodily fluids were found. But the forensics team detects blood residues on one of the sofa's feet. They also discover several traces of sperm on a bedcover that is on Joana's bed, as well as on the pillows and on the wall next to the bed. Everything is taken by the forensics team, to be tested in their lab.
Hmmm.
One of the problems that I have with that account is that the police went to inspect the house on 22 Sept...
On the other hand, the actions that are part of the reconstitution act are compatible with the blood traces that were collected in the living room (it should be noted that the reconstitution takes place in the living room), as a result of the search and apprehension act that was carried out on the 22th of September 2004 (cfr. pages 173 and 233 and following), which mentions that traces were collected on the floor, near the entrance door, inside and outside, near the interior electrical switch on the right hand side of the entrance door, near the entrance on the left hand side of the sofa, on a pair of trainers belonging to MM [Leandro] Silva that were located between the sofas, on a mop (handle) and its bucket.
And the reconstruction didn't take place until 7 October.
A 7 de Outubro de 2004, a Polícia Judiciária
leva o tio da criança a fazer uma reconstituição do crime, onde este, sendo filmado, explica detalhadamente
como a criança morreu e o seu cadáver foi cortado.
http://www.aps.pt/vicongresso/pdfs/700.pdf
Although he may have made some kind of "voluntary" confession on 22nd, that account from the book gives me the impression that he had confessed all the gruesome details and the police simply went by after to double-check if his account was likely to be true. However, according to the CdaM extract below referring to the events of 24th (and the hearing with the judge, etc), he had initially confessed, but then retracted when his statement was written up, pointed the finger at Leonor and limited his involvement to helping conceal the body on land near the house, but that he couldn't remember where as it was dark.
Segundo apurou o Correio da Manhã, o tio da menina assassinada, João Cipriano, que foi o primeiro a ser ouvido pela juíza (esteve a ser interrogado desde meio da tarde até às 21h30), terá inicialmente admitido o crime, mas depois, quando as declarações foram passadas a escrito, o indivíduo acabou por apontar o dedo à irmã, a mãe de Joana.
“Isso é com a minha irmã” – foi a expressão usada vezes sem conta pelo indivíduo, quando confrontado com questões relacionadas com a forma como se dera o homicídio da criança, remetendo para Leonor Cipriano todas as explicações do caso.
João Cipriano terá apenas reconhecido que ajudou a irmã (a pedido desta) a desfazer-se do corpo de Joana, depois de a menina ter sido morta. Garantiu que o corpo foi colocado num terreno próximo de casa, mas salientou que não sabia ao certo onde, dado que “estava escuro”.
So... it doesn't seem as if his "voluntary" confession of all the details happened before the house inspection. Another reason is that if he had given all those gory chopping up details at the time, the inspectors would have checked the fridge back on 22nd Sept (but they didn't check the fridge/freezer until 15 October).
In effect, arguido AA drew the instruments that were used for the quartering by his own hand (page 1885) – a fact that was confirmed by witness DD – and took part in the reconstitution, demonstrating how he used the saw and the knife, how the two arguidos helped each other, how they proceeded with the cuts, the time that they took, how they bagged the minor’s body parts and how they tried to place them inside the deep freezer. This reconstitution, which is legal and valid because it was done voluntarily by the arguido, was watched by witnesses DD (PJ inspector) and CC8 (pathologist), who also confirmed the manner in which the arguido proceeded with the reconstitution; witness DD further confirmed that the deep freezer that was used in the reconstitution was apprehended at the residence of arguida BB on the 15th of October 2004 (cfr. Pages 578 to 580 and photographs on page 1712 and following).
In other words, it seems to me as if this detailed confession came after the PJ had waved a UV torch around the house.
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An excerpt from Astro's summary of Cristovão's book:
During one of the interrogations, João, who has mood shifts, ends up confessing voluntarily to having beaten Joana, who hit a wall with her head and collapsed dead on the floor. He says he was having s.e.x with Leonor while the girl had been out on her errand, but Joana returned and saw them. She said she would tell Leandro about what she saw. The child tried to run out of the house, but was dragged back in by João and Leonor. Leonor slapped her, and then João also slapped the girl. The child flew against a wall, bumped her head and dropped dead on the floor. He then cut up her body and stored it in plastic bags in the family's freezer. Cristóvão, the detective who is interrogating him, asks some specific questions about the process of cutting. João's answers chillingly detail the process, including correct information about the difficulty in separating certain joints. He also tells Cristóvão that all 4 adults - João, Leonor, Leandro and Carlos - ended up knowing that Joana was dead, as he and Leonor showed the bags in the freezer to Leandro and Carlos when they arrived home, later that evening. João later repeats his confession in the presence of his lawyer, and duly signs it.
The detectives return to Figueira, now with a forensics team, to check whether the information that João has given them yields some traces of evidence. Their discoveries turn out to be much more than they bargained for. They discover the orange flip-flops that Joana was supposedly wearing the evening she vanished. Then they turn the uv light to the wall where João told them the child had hit her head before collapsing dead on the floor.
Her face is clearly 'drawn' on the wall, also two small hands that left a trace that goes down the wall, showing Joana's last movement. They also discover the prints of her hands on the frame of the house's outer door, that were left there at the moment when she tried to escape. João had told Cristóvão how Joana had tried to cling to the door frame, and they had to pull her back in by her legs. Everything is photographed.
On the sofa where allegedly João was having s.e.x with his sister, no traces of bodily fluids were found. But the forensics team detects blood residues on one of the sofa's feet. They also discover several traces of sperm on a bedcover that is on Joana's bed, as well as on the pillows and on the wall next to the bed. Everything is taken by the forensics team, to be tested in their lab.
Hmmm.
One of the problems that I have with that account is that the police went to inspect the house on 22 Sept...
On the other hand, the actions that are part of the reconstitution act are compatible with the blood traces that were collected in the living room (it should be noted that the reconstitution takes place in the living room), as a result of the search and apprehension act that was carried out on the 22th of September 2004 (cfr. pages 173 and 233 and following), which mentions that traces were collected on the floor, near the entrance door, inside and outside, near the interior electrical switch on the right hand side of the entrance door, near the entrance on the left hand side of the sofa, on a pair of trainers belonging to MM [Leandro] Silva that were located between the sofas, on a mop (handle) and its bucket.
And the reconstruction didn't take place until 7 October.
A 7 de Outubro de 2004, a Polícia Judiciária
leva o tio da criança a fazer uma reconstituição do crime, onde este, sendo filmado, explica detalhadamente
como a criança morreu e o seu cadáver foi cortado.
http://www.aps.pt/vicongresso/pdfs/700.pdf
Although he may have made some kind of "voluntary" confession on 22nd, that account from the book gives me the impression that he had confessed all the gruesome details and the police simply went by after to double-check if his account was likely to be true. However, according to the CdaM extract below referring to the events of 24th (and the hearing with the judge, etc), he had initially confessed, but then retracted when his statement was written up, pointed the finger at Leonor and limited his involvement to helping conceal the body on land near the house, but that he couldn't remember where as it was dark.
Segundo apurou o Correio da Manhã, o tio da menina assassinada, João Cipriano, que foi o primeiro a ser ouvido pela juíza (esteve a ser interrogado desde meio da tarde até às 21h30), terá inicialmente admitido o crime, mas depois, quando as declarações foram passadas a escrito, o indivíduo acabou por apontar o dedo à irmã, a mãe de Joana.
“Isso é com a minha irmã” – foi a expressão usada vezes sem conta pelo indivíduo, quando confrontado com questões relacionadas com a forma como se dera o homicídio da criança, remetendo para Leonor Cipriano todas as explicações do caso.
João Cipriano terá apenas reconhecido que ajudou a irmã (a pedido desta) a desfazer-se do corpo de Joana, depois de a menina ter sido morta. Garantiu que o corpo foi colocado num terreno próximo de casa, mas salientou que não sabia ao certo onde, dado que “estava escuro”.
So... it doesn't seem as if his "voluntary" confession of all the details happened before the house inspection. Another reason is that if he had given all those gory chopping up details at the time, the inspectors would have checked the fridge back on 22nd Sept (but they didn't check the fridge/freezer until 15 October).
In effect, arguido AA drew the instruments that were used for the quartering by his own hand (page 1885) – a fact that was confirmed by witness DD – and took part in the reconstitution, demonstrating how he used the saw and the knife, how the two arguidos helped each other, how they proceeded with the cuts, the time that they took, how they bagged the minor’s body parts and how they tried to place them inside the deep freezer. This reconstitution, which is legal and valid because it was done voluntarily by the arguido, was watched by witnesses DD (PJ inspector) and CC8 (pathologist), who also confirmed the manner in which the arguido proceeded with the reconstitution; witness DD further confirmed that the deep freezer that was used in the reconstitution was apprehended at the residence of arguida BB on the 15th of October 2004 (cfr. Pages 578 to 580 and photographs on page 1712 and following).
In other words, it seems to me as if this detailed confession came after the PJ had waved a UV torch around the house.
Well done carana.
The sperm and blood on Joanas bed, was never tested? The supermarket lady had Joana tested for abuse when she took her to hospital with a cough .....Neg.
Its all bizarre to say the least and book guy was one of those present during the reconstruction.
-
Then, I have another problem.
Her face is clearly 'drawn' on the wall, also two small hands that left a trace that goes down the wall, showing Joana's last movement. They also discover the prints of her hands on the frame of the house's outer door, that were left there at the moment when she tried to escape. João had told Cristóvão how Joana had tried to cling to the door frame, and they had to pull her back in by her legs. Everything is photographed.
Witness CC3, coordinator of the PJ criminal investigation stated that they started to investigate the case 9 days after her disappearance (...) confirmed the [forensic] search, via the Projectina technique, of the traces in the living-room of defendant BB's home , which resulted in the records of the signs photographed in on pp. 896, etc..
A testemunha CC3 , coordenador de investigação criminal da P.J., declarou que começaram a investigar o caso passados 9 dias do desaparecimento da CC (...) onfirmou ainda a pesquisa pela técnica denominada Projectina de vestígios na sala da casa da arguida BB, de onde resultou o apuramento dos sinais fotografados nos autos a fls. 896 ss.
This "Projectina" appears to be a UV lamp (and the description below may not have been the same model as the one in 2004).
Crime Scene Lamp SL-450
The SL-450 is fully portable. No interconnected cables or shoulder packs. Therefore unlimited movement around the crime scene is guaranteed. The Xenon powered light source submits an out-standing light output for general crime scene investigation.
Application
The ideal lamp for physical and/or trace evidence investigation with seven built-in different spectra from UV 365 nm, white light up to 530 nm.
Features
independent of mains supply
Xenon light source
high UV intensity
maintenance-free
robust and lightweight construction
specially designed accessories
New accessories
Telescopic arm for ergonomic securing of evidence
Filter assembly with 3 filters for side light, beam expander:and light reduction to 60 %
http://www.forensictechnology.com/csl-450/
Upon checking what UV torches actually reveal, they don't just show traces of blood:
Ultraviolet (UV) light technologies are used for multiple purposes in forensic investigations, including authenticating paintings and other fine art, authenticating signatures, analyzing questioned documents, illuminating latent fingerprints at crime scenes and trace evidence on clothing, analyzing ink stains, and revealing residual stains of body fluids.
Ultraviolet light analysis and other optical examination techniques are recommended by the Federal Bureau of Investigation guidelines as the first choice to examine biologically contaminated evidence. This is because ultraviolet analysis is not destructive. It allows precise images and preliminary identification of the evidence before other analytical methods, such as luminol or washing solutions, are applied.
Body fluids such as saliva, semen, vaginal fluids, urine, and perspiration give off fluorescent light when illuminated by a source of ultraviolet light, which is a very efficient method for detecting such stains in a crime scene or in objects collected from the scene, such as clothing, towels, bed sheets, or decorative items. Even dried stains become fluorescent under UV light.
http://www.enotes.com/topics/ultraviolet-light-analysis
The fact that this Projectina was a UV torch seems to be corroborated by this (the judge overruling the defence objection that the samples were necessarily blood:
E.VII. Inexistiu igualmente qualquer contradição insanável na motivação decorrente de não se terem entendido como sendo da malograda CC os vestígios recolhidos através da técnica da projectina e o entendimento de serem seus os vestígios de sangue humano colhidos na casa onde decorreram os factos, ou entre esta conclusão e a de que, por acção de limpezas efectuadas pela arguida BB, não ter sido possível apurar o ADN de tal sangue.
Isto porque foi através de muitos outros elementos de prova que se concluiu por ser sangue da menor aquele que foi colhido na casa, em nada se relacionando esses vestígios hemáticos com os colhidos pela técnica da projectina (que faz surgir outros fluidos corporais).
Sendo ainda que apenas poderia existir a alegada contradição caso existissem, por sua vez, elementos laboratoriais que afastassem a possibilidade de o sangue pertencer à vítima, o que não sucedeu.
Não existem, assim, quaisquer factos contraditórios dados como provados quanto a esta matéria.
Sooo... my understanding of this is that on 22 Sept, they went round with a UV torch (which would make any biological traces fluorescent. They must have taken swabs to check for blood (as the forensic report does state that there were traces of human blood and a mixture of human and animal blood found).
I have no problem with that. However, even though some traces of blood were apparently found in the glowing areas, unless they took millimetre-by-millimetre swabs or other highly precise methods of forensic collection (and it would require the forensic report to verify), there is nothing that I can find online to indicate that the whole of the glowing areas were in fact blood, as opposed to, e.g., perspiration with unidentified and undated specks of blood somewhere in these areas.
My initial impression, based on media reports, was of this poor child's bleeding head and hands and pools of blood and all the rest of it, but I'm now somewhat sceptical.
-
Well done carana.
The sperm and blood on Joanas bed, was never tested? The supermarket lady had Joana tested for abuse when she took her to hospital with a cough .....Neg.
Its all bizarre to say the least and book guy was one of those present during the reconstruction.
The "sexual abuse" tests aren't in any files that I can find, but from Leandro's press interview two years later. It's not entirely clear to me whether this was verified or whether it was a rumour that he was commenting on. According to that interview, supermarket lady and Joana were close and she apparently left her supermarket business to go to the UK soon after the disappearance (which he found odd).
What might be plausible is that she may have learned that Joana was sharing a bedroom with MM (and I'd have to find where I read this, if ever it's true) which she may have found disconcerting.
Without the forensic report, there is no way of knowing whether there was a positive test for semen on her knickers or just an assumption based on a UV torch (which would also reveal urine) and mens' DNA transferred to her knickers from being in a laundry basket with their clothes.
Seemingly it all came to nothing as they couldn't prove which man's DNA it was anyway.
-
Then, I have another problem.
Her face is clearly 'drawn' on the wall, also two small hands that left a trace that goes down the wall, showing Joana's last movement. They also discover the prints of her hands on the frame of the house's outer door, that were left there at the moment when she tried to escape. João had told Cristóvão how Joana had tried to cling to the door frame, and they had to pull her back in by her legs. Everything is photographed.
Witness CC3, coordinator of the PJ criminal investigation stated that they started to investigate the case 9 days after her disappearance (...) confirmed the [forensic] search, via the Projectina technique, of the traces in the living-room of defendant BB's home , which resulted in the records of the signs photographed in on pp. 896, etc..
A testemunha CC3 , coordenador de investigação criminal da P.J., declarou que começaram a investigar o caso passados 9 dias do desaparecimento da CC (...) onfirmou ainda a pesquisa pela técnica denominada Projectina de vestígios na sala da casa da arguida BB, de onde resultou o apuramento dos sinais fotografados nos autos a fls. 896 ss.
This "Projectina" appears to be a UV lamp (and the description below may not have been the same model as the one in 2004).
Crime Scene Lamp SL-450
The SL-450 is fully portable. No interconnected cables or shoulder packs. Therefore unlimited movement around the crime scene is guaranteed. The Xenon powered light source submits an out-standing light output for general crime scene investigation.
Application
The ideal lamp for physical and/or trace evidence investigation with seven built-in different spectra from UV 365 nm, white light up to 530 nm.
Features
independent of mains supply
Xenon light source
high UV intensity
maintenance-free
robust and lightweight construction
specially designed accessories
New accessories
Telescopic arm for ergonomic securing of evidence
Filter assembly with 3 filters for side light, beam expander:and light reduction to 60 %
http://www.forensictechnology.com/csl-450/
Upon checking what UV torches actually reveal, they don't just show traces of blood:
Ultraviolet (UV) light technologies are used for multiple purposes in forensic investigations, including authenticating paintings and other fine art, authenticating signatures, analyzing questioned documents, illuminating latent fingerprints at crime scenes and trace evidence on clothing, analyzing ink stains, and revealing residual stains of body fluids.
Ultraviolet light analysis and other optical examination techniques are recommended by the Federal Bureau of Investigation guidelines as the first choice to examine biologically contaminated evidence. This is because ultraviolet analysis is not destructive. It allows precise images and preliminary identification of the evidence before other analytical methods, such as luminol or washing solutions, are applied.
Body fluids such as saliva, semen, vaginal fluids, urine, and perspiration give off fluorescent light when illuminated by a source of ultraviolet light, which is a very efficient method for detecting such stains in a crime scene or in objects collected from the scene, such as clothing, towels, bed sheets, or decorative items. Even dried stains become fluorescent under UV light.
http://www.enotes.com/topics/ultraviolet-light-analysis
The fact that this Projectina was a UV torch seems to be corroborated by this (the judge overruling the defence objection that the samples were necessarily blood:
E.VII. Inexistiu igualmente qualquer contradição insanável na motivação decorrente de não se terem entendido como sendo da malograda CC os vestígios recolhidos através da técnica da projectina e o entendimento de serem seus os vestígios de sangue humano colhidos na casa onde decorreram os factos, ou entre esta conclusão e a de que, por acção de limpezas efectuadas pela arguida BB, não ter sido possível apurar o ADN de tal sangue.
Isto porque foi através de muitos outros elementos de prova que se concluiu por ser sangue da menor aquele que foi colhido na casa, em nada se relacionando esses vestígios hemáticos com os colhidos pela técnica da projectina (que faz surgir outros fluidos corporais).
Sendo ainda que apenas poderia existir a alegada contradição caso existissem, por sua vez, elementos laboratoriais que afastassem a possibilidade de o sangue pertencer à vítima, o que não sucedeu.
Não existem, assim, quaisquer factos contraditórios dados como provados quanto a esta matéria.
Sooo... my understanding of this is that on 22 Sept, they went round with a UV torch (which would make any biological traces fluorescent. They must have taken swabs to check for blood (as the forensic report does state that there were traces of human blood and a mixture of human and animal blood found).
I have no problem with that. However, even though some traces of blood were apparently found in the glowing areas, unless they took millimetre-by-millimetre swabs or other highly precise methods of forensic collection (and it would require the forensic report to verify), there is nothing that I can find online to indicate that the whole of the glowing areas were in fact blood, as opposed to, e.g., perspiration with unidentified and undated specks of blood somewhere in these areas.
My initial impression, based on media reports, was of this poor child's bleeding head and hands and pools of blood and all the rest of it, but I'm now somewhat sceptical.
Great research again.
2006 appeal
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
blood traces appeared on the floor, on the walls, the bucket and mop, on the sole of each toe shoes that were in the room and in a drawer of the cabinet; the defendant John collaborated in a reconstitution of the facts on which you have indicated how the child died ; collaborated yet another reconstitution of rendering the child and by several times mentioned to the PJ locations where the body could be found; in addition to the testimony of those who heard the defendants say that they killed (or that the John Eventually killed) the child. Those traces, second tests carried out, are of human blood and human blood and animal (cfr. fls. 235), and although they were insufficient to ascertain to whom they belong through the DNA MOLECULE (fls. 1780 ss), are revealing that in the living room of the house
http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
7 oct 2005
The suspicion of any sexual abuse was, incidentally, a question being asked by many inhabitants in the village of Figueira, when Joana has disappeared. AND in November 2004, sources linked to research began to pass on a message that until then would be "important people" involved in that case.
However, the responsibility of a small grocery store in that hamlet said at the time when our newspaper that, significantly in April, took advantage of a consultation of the girl at the Hospital of the Barlavento in Portimao, to ask for a medical examination to joana, in order to find out whether she had, in fact, been the victim of rape. The test was negative. Also the two sons of stepfather Joana - Ruben and Lara, three and two years, respectively - were seen by doctors, but nothing was detected in this respect.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/suspeita-de-violacao-da-menina
12 oct 2004
However, the woman who lives cohabit with another uncle of joana, Nelson Cyprian, assumed the Judicial Police that "when he went to the house of Leonor and stayed in bed of joana, kept one or two sexual relations with his companion and without condom". Such a situation could help to clarify how it is that, on some occasions, was sperm on the bed of Joana.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/judiciaria-escava-na-figueira
-
Joana Case: Crime of Rape Ignored to Save Money
29th October 2008
Joana Cipriano was eight years old when she was last seen, on the 12th of September 2004, around 20h30. The little girl went on a errand on her mother's behalf to a nearby coffee in the Algarve village of Figueira, and never returned.
Leandro Silva, Joana's stepfather
Joana’s stepfather refused to make an analyses to the sperm found in the little girl’s panties to prove if there was or not a crime of rape. The PJ gave up making the exam in the US to save 10 thousand Euros.
After Joana Cipriano’s stepfather, Leandro Silva, refused to give a sample of his semen for the analysis, the National Institute of Forensic Medicine suggested to the Judiciary Police the making of a DNA test in the US.
However, the ‘indication was not followed’ by the Judiciary due to the values implicated, 10 thousand Euros, as advanced by Correio da Manhã today. The PJ explained to the newspaper that the archival was made ‘because even if it is proved that the sperm belongs to the suspect he can still allege that he cleaned his penis to the child’s panties’.
We recall that the police found in Leonor Cipriano’s daughter panties, semen. Only an analysis would shed light regarding the crime of rape of the Figueira’s child.
Joana’s mother was convicted to 16 years in jail for the crime of homicide of her daughter, jointly done with the brother, uncle of little girl who disappeared in September 2004 from the village of Figueira, in Portimão.
This week follows in court the trial of five elements of the Judiciary Police accused of acts of torture to Leonor Cipriano, in October 2004, which happened during the interrogatories to Joana’s mother with the objective of getting a confession.
in AEIOU Portuguese Portal
By Joana Morais
.http://missingmadeleine.forumotion.net/t3594-joana-case-crime-of-rape-ignored-to-save-money#66407
-
Found it and you were right Carana
1.12/2005
THE FIVE BRANDS IN HOME
traces, which mark the last day of joana, are numbered from 1 to 5 and were analyzed by technicians from the Laboratory of Forensic Science with appeal to ultraviolet light. Two of these signs are located on the outside of the house. Palm prints , both of the right hand of the little girl, at approximately 70 inches(5ft 10 ?) from the ground, another 25 centimetres.
Inside the residence the PJ found three more brands: one for each hand and one that he admits being the face of the girl.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/defesa-e-acusacao-recorrem-da-pena
-
The "sexual abuse" tests aren't in any files that I can find, but from Leandro's press interview two years later. It's not entirely clear to me whether this was verified or whether it was a rumour that he was commenting on. According to that interview, supermarket lady and Joana were close and she apparently left her supermarket business to go to the UK soon after the disappearance (which he found odd).
What might be plausible is that she may have learned that Joana was sharing a bedroom with MM (and I'd have to find where I read this, if ever it's true) which she may have found disconcerting.
Without the forensic report, there is no way of knowing whether there was a positive test for semen on her knickers or just an assumption based on a UV torch (which would also reveal urine) and mens' DNA transferred to her knickers from being in a laundry basket with their clothes.
Seemingly it all came to nothing as they couldn't prove which man's DNA it was anyway.
The supermarket lady had already sold up and moved to UK and had to return for court oct 2005
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nidia, who now works in England, also attended as she took the girl to the school on the first day, as it was with her to the doctor and as helped Leonor demand it, without suspecting anything. "I did everything for her
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
She was very attached to Joana by the sounds of it. I don't think a woman was the perp here, but I do have some ideas.
-
The supermarket lady had already sold up and moved to UK and had to return for court oct 2005
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nidia, who now works in England, also attended as she took the girl to the school on the first day, as it was with her to the doctor and as helped Leonor demand it, without suspecting anything. "I did everything for her
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
She was very attached to Joana by the sounds of it. I don't think a woman was the perp here, but I do have some ideas.
To check later, but I'm not aware that she was physically in court during the trial. Something somewhere about a (written) statement.
-
Joana Case: Crime of Rape Ignored to Save Money
29th October 2008
Joana Cipriano was eight years old when she was last seen, on the 12th of September 2004, around 20h30. The little girl went on a errand on her mother's behalf to a nearby coffee in the Algarve village of Figueira, and never returned.
Leandro Silva, Joana's stepfather
Joana’s stepfather refused to make an analyses to the sperm found in the little girl’s panties to prove if there was or not a crime of rape. The PJ gave up making the exam in the US to save 10 thousand Euros.
After Joana Cipriano’s stepfather, Leandro Silva, refused to give a sample of his semen for the analysis, the National Institute of Forensic Medicine suggested to the Judiciary Police the making of a DNA test in the US.
However, the ‘indication was not followed’ by the Judiciary due to the values implicated, 10 thousand Euros, as advanced by Correio da Manhã today. The PJ explained to the newspaper that the archival was made ‘because even if it is proved that the sperm belongs to the suspect he can still allege that he cleaned his penis to the child’s panties’.
We recall that the police found in Leonor Cipriano’s daughter panties, semen. Only an analysis would shed light regarding the crime of rape of the Figueira’s child.
Joana’s mother was convicted to 16 years in jail for the crime of homicide of her daughter, jointly done with the brother, uncle of little girl who disappeared in September 2004 from the village of Figueira, in Portimão.
This week follows in court the trial of five elements of the Judiciary Police accused of acts of torture to Leonor Cipriano, in October 2004, which happened during the interrogatories to Joana’s mother with the objective of getting a confession.
in AEIOU Portuguese Portal
By Joana Morais
.http://missingmadeleine.forumotion.net/t3594-joana-case-crime-of-rape-ignored-to-save-money#66407
What on earth is that about? Why would it have cost €10,000 to do a test to determine sperm and/ or the donor's DNA? Was it done or not in the end?
From the interview with Leandro, it doesn't seem as if anyone really knew what this was about. According to Leandro, they (PJ or press?) said that it was his, then they said it was from Carlos Pinto (presumably MM), then they said it was from Leandro's brother Beto. Then Leandro was told that it had nothing to do with him... a bit confusing.
A.P. – A PJ diz que encontrou cuecas da Joana com vestígios de esperma, concluindo por isso que ela era abusada sexualmente, além de ser vítima de maus-tratos como de resto consta de um outro processo. Como é que isso é possível?
L.S. – Já disseram que os vestígios de esperma eram meus. Depois, diziam que era do Carlos Pinto, que vivia na mesma casa. Chegaram a dizer que era do meu irmão Beto. Mais tarde, disseram-me para estar à vontade, que nada tinha a ver comigo. Fiquei sem saber o que se tinha passado.
A.P. – Mas como podia haver vestígios de esperma na roupa da menina?
L.S. – Também me faz confusão. Não sei. Acho que isso está muito mal contado por parte da Judiciária.
http://www.algarvepress.net/conteudo.php?menu=-1&cat=Regional&scat=Reportagem&id=136
-
I don't know if Leandro's comments in his press interview were the result of having read the article in the paper (which may - or may not be true), or whether he found out via other means.
7 oct 2005
The suspicion of any sexual abuse was, incidentally, a question being asked by many inhabitants in the village of Figueira, when Joana has disappeared. AND in November 2004, sources linked to research began to pass on a message that until then would be "important people" involved in that case.
However, the responsibility of a small grocery store in that hamlet said at the time when our newspaper that, significantly in April, took advantage of a consultation of the girl at the Hospital of the Barlavento in Portimao, to ask for a medical examination to joana, in order to find out whether she had, in fact, been the victim of rape. The test was negative. Also the two sons of stepfather Joana - Ruben and Lara, three and two years, respectively - were seen by doctors, but nothing was detected in this respect.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/suspeita-de-violacao-da-menina
-
I don't know if Leandro's comments in his press interview were the result of having read the article in the paper (which may - or may not be true), or whether he found out via other means.
7 oct 2005
The suspicion of any sexual abuse was, incidentally, a question being asked by many inhabitants in the village of Figueira, when Joana has disappeared. AND in November 2004, sources linked to research began to pass on a message that until then would be "important people" involved in that case.
However, the responsibility of a small grocery store in that hamlet said at the time when our newspaper that, significantly in April, took advantage of a consultation of the girl at the Hospital of the Barlavento in Portimao, to ask for a medical examination to joana, in order to find out whether she had, in fact, been the victim of rape. The test was negative. Also the two sons of stepfather Joana - Ruben and Lara, three and two years, respectively - were seen by doctors, but nothing was detected in this respect.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/suspeita-de-violacao-da-menina
I have already put that below, with some others extracts.
I a was just looking at the news, when I read that her son is very troublesome at school,
-
Well done carana.
The sperm and blood on Joanas bed, was never tested? The supermarket lady had Joana tested for abuse when she took her to hospital with a cough .....Neg.
Its all bizarre to say the least and book guy was one of those present during the reconstruction.
I haven't found anything reliable about so-called sperm on the bed, nor even that supermarket lady had actually had her tested for sexual abuse (aside from a press article to that effect). So, no idea about that for the moment.
-
I have already put that below, with some others extracts.
I a was just looking at the news, when I read that her son is very troublesome at school,
Whose son?
-
To check later, but I'm not aware that she was physically in court during the trial. Something somewhere about a (written) statement.
She did shock everyone when she shouted abuse at Leonor in court
-
Whose son?
Sorry Carana. Leonors son.
-
She did shock everyone when she shouted abuse at Leonor in court
Supermarket lady? I haven't seen anything to that effect so far. I wasn't aware that she was even present in court. I'll have a look to check.
ETA: She's BB3 in the SC document
A testemunha BB3, proprietária de um supermercado na Figueira
-
Have I got this right
The sperm ............didn't go to court...... would have done if they had a case though
The Sexual abuse...didn't go to court ......But all the children were checked april 2004,...neg
The blood..............Inconclusive....animal and human......... unknown and blood marks on wall shown up by UV
incest....................Unproven
cant remember what else with forensics
-
This is the court case which would be recorded by CM these are all in the court case thre
-
Have I got this right
The sperm ............didn't go to court...... would have done if they had a case though
The Sexual abuse...didn't go to court ......But all the children were checked april 2004,...neg
The blood..............Inconclusive....animal and human......... unknown and blood marks on wall shown up by UV
incest....................Unproven
cant remember what else with forensics
I'll need to double-check on this sperm issue. I had found a document, but I can't find the link for the moment. The bottom line was that it was dropped.
UV showed up fluorescent patches. Whatever the main substances may have been that were fluorescent, somewhere in some of those at least were traces of blood, both human and a mixture of human and animal blood. The trace of blood at the back of a freezer drawer was human. None seem to have been identified as being Joana's.
Incest was unproven (and although possible, seems somewhat unlikely - IMO - with two kids sleeping, Joana who'd only gone on a 1/2 hour errand, her partner and the other guy who could have turned up at home at any point...).
-
Copying the original of that passage, she does seem to have made an emotional statement, but from what I can work out from that article, it was recorded at the end of September (before the trial). She doesn't seem to have been physically in court. She was clearly fond of Joana, and may well have believed the press at the time. Hard to tell. In a later statement (for the torture trial), she said that she'd never seen Leonor hitting her. There's no mention that I can find in the SC document about having had her medically checked for potential sex abuse when she took her to hospital for a cough. So, for the moment, I can't see anything to corroborate that.
"COMO FOSTE CAPAZ?"
“Leonor, como é que foste capaz de fazer uma coisa destas?” A sala gelou quando ouviu Nídia Rochato dirigir-se directamente a Leonor, na audição do seu testemunho para memória futura, gravado no final de Setembro. Após dois dias de julgamento, marcados pela frieza dos testemunhos, as palavras gravadas da dona do supermercado de Figueira, e amiga de Joana, comoveram a assistência.
“Contou-me que na outra escola fazia colares e os vendia aos colegas. E disse que podia fazer o mesmo na Figueira.” Nídia, que agora trabalha em Inglaterra, contou ainda como levou a menina à escola no primeiro dia, como foi com ela ao médico e como ajudou Leonor a procurá-la, sem suspeitar de nada. “Fiz tudo pela Joana. Só não fiz o que deveria ter feito, que era tirá-la da mãe.”
-
2006 appeal
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blood traces appeared on the floor, on the walls, the bucket and mop, on the sole of each toe shoes that were in the room and in a drawer of the cabinet; the defendant John collaborated in a reconstitution of the facts on which you have indicated how the child died ; collaborated yet another reconstitution of rendering the child and by several times mentioned to the PJ locations where the body could be found; in addition to the testimony of those who heard the defendants say that they killed (or that the John Eventually killed) the child. Those traces, second tests carried out, are of human blood and human blood and animal (cfr. fls. 235), and although they were insufficient to ascertain to whom they belong through the DNA MOLECULE (fls. 1780 ss), are revealing that in the living room of the house
http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
7 oct 2005
The suspicion of any sexual abuse was, incidentally, a question being asked by many inhabitants in the village of Figueira, when Joana has disappeared. AND in November 2004, sources linked to research began to pass on a message that until then would be "important people" involved in that case.
However, the responsibility of a small grocery store in that hamlet said at the time to our newspaper that, significantly in April, took advantage of a consultation of the girl at the Hospital of the Barlavento in Portimao, to ask for a medical examination to joana, in order to find out whether she had, in fact, been the victim of rape. The test was negative. Also the two sons of stepfather Joana - Ruben and Lara, three and two years, respectively - were seen by doctors, but nothing was detected in this respect.
http://www.dn.pt/especiais/interior.aspx?content_id=1006708&especial=Caso Joana&seccao=SOCIEDADE
12 oct 2004
However, the woman who lives cohabit with another uncle of joana, Nelson Cyprian, assumed the Judicial Police that "when he went to the house of Leonor and stayed in bed of joana, kept one or two sexual relations with his companion and without condom". Such a situation could help to clarify how it is that, on some occasions, was sperm on the bed of Joana.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/judiciaria-escava-na-figueira
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Copying the original of that passage, she does seem to have made an emotional statement, but from what I can work out from that article, it was recorded at the end of September (before the trial). She doesn't seem to have been physically in court. She was clearly fond of Joana, and may well have believed the press at the time. Hard to tell. In a later statement (for the torture trial), she said that she'd never seen Leonor hitting her. There's no mention that I can find in the SC document about having had her medically checked for potential sex abuse when she took her to hospital for a cough. So, for the moment, I can't see anything to corroborate that.
"COMO FOSTE CAPAZ?"
“Leonor, como é que foste capaz de fazer uma coisa destas?” A sala gelou quando ouviu Nídia Rochato dirigir-se directamente a Leonor, na audição do seu testemunho para memória futura, gravado no final de Setembro. Após dois dias de julgamento, marcados pela frieza dos testemunhos, as palavras gravadas da dona do supermercado de Figueira, e amiga de Joana, comoveram a assistência.
“Contou-me que na outra escola fazia colares e os vendia aos colegas. E disse que podia fazer o mesmo na Figueira.” Nídia, que agora trabalha em Inglaterra, contou ainda como levou a menina à escola no primeiro dia, como foi com ela ao médico e como ajudou Leonor a procurá-la, sem suspeitar de nada. “Fiz tudo pela Joana. Só não fiz o que deveria ter feito, que era tirá-la da mãe.”
Maybe she moved in sep 2005 then. Not exactly straight after Joana disappeared, as Leandro stated is it ?
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Maybe she moved in sep 2005 then. Not exactly straight after Joana disappeared, as Leandro stated is it ?
Don't know when she moved. Just that her statement was recorded in September. Whether she'd gone back to PT to record it or whether she managed to do it from the UK... no idea.
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2006 appeal
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
blood traces appeared on the floor, on the walls, the bucket and mop, on the sole of each toe shoes that were in the room and in a drawer of the cabinet; the defendant John collaborated in a reconstitution of the facts on which you have indicated how the child died ; collaborated yet another reconstitution of rendering the child and by several times mentioned to the PJ locations where the body could be found; in addition to the testimony of those who heard the defendants say that they killed (or that the John Eventually killed) the child. Those traces, second tests carried out, are of human blood and human blood and animal (cfr. fls. 235), and although they were insufficient to ascertain to whom they belong through the DNA MOLECULE (fls. 1780 ss), are revealing that in the living room of the house
http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
7 Oct 2005
The suspicion of any sexual abuse was, incidentally, a question being asked by many inhabitants in the village of Figueira, when Joana has disappeared. AND in November 2004, sources linked to research began to pass on a message that until then would be "important people" involved in that case.
However, the responsibility of a small grocery store in that hamlet said at the time to our newspaper that, significantly in April, took advantage of a consultation of the girl at the Hospital of the Barlavento in Portimao, to ask for a medical examination to joana, in order to find out whether she had, in fact, been the victim of rape. The test was negative. Also the two sons of stepfather Joana - Ruben and Lara, three and two years, respectively - were seen by doctors, but nothing was detected in this respect.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/suspeita-de-violacao-da-menina
12 Oct 2004
However, the woman who lives cohabit with another uncle of joana, Nelson Cyprian, assumed the Judicial Police that "when he went to the house of Leonor and stayed in bed of joana, kept one or two sexual relations with his companion and without condom". Such a situation could help to clarify how it is that, on some occasions, was sperm on the bed of Joana.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/judiciaria-escava-na-figueira
Anna, your CM link doesn't match the text on 7 Oct 2005 ?
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Anna, your CM link doesn't match the text on 7 Oct 2005 ?
Sorry I used a few newspapers and must have got them muddled
Hopefully it is this one http://www.dn.pt/especiais/interior.aspx?content_id=1006708&especial=Caso Joana&seccao=SOCIEDADE
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Thanks, Anna.
I'm wondering if this is actually true. I haven't found anything to substantiate the allegations that the children were checked for signs of sexual abuse. When? Where are the reports? Wouldn't such tests, on Joana, at least (prior to the arrests), need the parents' agreement, or that of the social services?
And what's this about "sources" alleging that "important people" were involved? Was this a general paranoia about the Casa Pia case?
I find that somewhat dubious for the moment...
Mãe de Joana é suspeita em novo caso de maus tratos
por José Manuel Oliveira07 outubro 2005Comentar
Leonor Cipriano, mãe da criança desaparecida há mais de um ano na localidade de Figueira, no concelho de Portimão, foi constituída arguida num processo de suspeita de abusos sexuais e maus tratos perpetrados contra a filha, Joana, instaurado pelo Ministério Público. Na origem deste novo processo estarão vestígios de sangue e de sémen detectados pelo Laboratório da Polícia Científica numa peça de roupa interior da menina que estava na casa onde vivia.
Leonor Cipriano foi ontem inquirida, durante cerca de uma ho-ra, na PJ de Faro, na presença do seu advogado oficioso, João Grade. Quando chegou ao local, apresentava sinais de cansaço e apatia.
Segundo soube o DN, há mais arguidos naquele caso, nomeadamente familiares do sexo masculino e amigos do padrasto da menor, Leandro Silva, aos quais foi recolhida há meses saliva para investigações sobre ADN. Recorde-se que há cerca de sete meses Carlos Alberto, meio-irmão de Leandro Silva, foi constituído arguido por suspeita de abusos sexuais, mas o processo foi arquivado pouco depois.
Vários familiares de Joana garantem inocência neste novo processo. "Nesta família não há assassinos nem pedófilos. Só pedimos que a PJ investigue tudo bem", apelaram, em declarações ao DN.
A suspeita de eventuais abusos sexuais foi, de resto, uma questão alvitrada por muitos populares na aldeia da Figueira, quando Joana desapareceu. E em Novembro de 2004, fontes ligadas à investigação começaram a passar a mensagem de que até haveria "pessoas importantes" envolvidas naquele caso. Contudo, a responsável de um minimercado naquela povoação disse na altura ao nosso jornal que, sensivelmente em Abril, aproveitou uma consulta da miúda no Hospital do Barlavento, em Portimão, para pedir aos médicos um exame à Joana, a fim de saber se tinha, de facto, sido vítima de violação. O teste foi negativo. Também os dois filhos do padrasto de Joana - Ruben e Lara, de três e dois anos, respectivamente - foram vistos pelos médicos, mas nada foi detectado nesse sentido.
http://www.dn.pt/especiais/interior.aspx?content_id=1006708&especial=Caso%20Joana&seccao=SOCIEDADE
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Thanks, Anna.
I'm wondering if this is actually true. I haven't found anything to substantiate the allegations that the children were checked for signs of sexual abuse. When? Where are the reports? Wouldn't such tests, on Joana, at least (prior to the arrests), need the parents' agreement, or that of the social services?
And what's this about "sources" alleging that "important people" were involved? Was this a general paranoia about the Casa Pia case?
I find that somewhat dubious for the moment...
Mãe de Joana é suspeita em novo caso de maus tratos
por José Manuel Oliveira07 outubro 2005Comentar
Leonor Cipriano, mãe da criança desaparecida há mais de um ano na localidade de Figueira, no concelho de Portimão, foi constituída arguida num processo de suspeita de abusos sexuais e maus tratos perpetrados contra a filha, Joana, instaurado pelo Ministério Público. Na origem deste novo processo estarão vestígios de sangue e de sémen detectados pelo Laboratório da Polícia Científica numa peça de roupa interior da menina que estava na casa onde vivia.
Leonor Cipriano foi ontem inquirida, durante cerca de uma ho-ra, na PJ de Faro, na presença do seu advogado oficioso, João Grade. Quando chegou ao local, apresentava sinais de cansaço e apatia.
Segundo soube o DN, há mais arguidos naquele caso, nomeadamente familiares do sexo masculino e amigos do padrasto da menor, Leandro Silva, aos quais foi recolhida há meses saliva para investigações sobre ADN. Recorde-se que há cerca de sete meses Carlos Alberto, meio-irmão de Leandro Silva, foi constituído arguido por suspeita de abusos sexuais, mas o processo foi arquivado pouco depois.
Vários familiares de Joana garantem inocência neste novo processo. "Nesta família não há assassinos nem pedófilos. Só pedimos que a PJ investigue tudo bem", apelaram, em declarações ao DN.
A suspeita de eventuais abusos sexuais foi, de resto, uma questão alvitrada por muitos populares na aldeia da Figueira, quando Joana desapareceu. E em Novembro de 2004, fontes ligadas à investigação começaram a passar a mensagem de que até haveria "pessoas importantes" envolvidas naquele caso. Contudo, a responsável de um minimercado naquela povoação disse na altura ao nosso jornal que, sensivelmente em Abril, aproveitou uma consulta da miúda no Hospital do Barlavento, em Portimão, para pedir aos médicos um exame à Joana, a fim de saber se tinha, de facto, sido vítima de violação. O teste foi negativo. Também os dois filhos do padrasto de Joana - Ruben e Lara, de três e dois anos, respectivamente - foram vistos pelos médicos, mas nada foi detectado nesse sentido.
http://www.dn.pt/especiais/interior.aspx?content_id=1006708&especial=Caso%20Joana&seccao=SOCIEDADE
Hi Carana . I hope you had good xmas without storm and floods
Maybe the police checked it out and that's why thy didn't bother with the sperm tests. Only other source could be the hospital. this evidence would have been Defence and that wasn't wanted by the look of the trial
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Thanks, Anna.
I'm wondering if this is actually true. I haven't found anything to substantiate the allegations that the children were checked for signs of sexual abuse. When? Where are the reports? Wouldn't such tests, on Joana, at least (prior to the arrests), need the parents' agreement, or that of the social services?
And what's this about "sources" alleging that "important people" were involved? Was this a general paranoia about the Casa Pia case?
I find that somewhat dubious for the moment...
Mãe de Joana é suspeita em novo caso de maus tratos
por José Manuel Oliveira07 outubro 2005Comentar
Leonor Cipriano, mãe da criança desaparecida há mais de um ano na localidade de Figueira, no concelho de Portimão, foi constituída arguida num processo de suspeita de abusos sexuais e maus tratos perpetrados contra a filha, Joana, instaurado pelo Ministério Público. Na origem deste novo processo estarão vestígios de sangue e de sémen detectados pelo Laboratório da Polícia Científica numa peça de roupa interior da menina que estava na casa onde vivia.
Leonor Cipriano foi ontem inquirida, durante cerca de uma ho-ra, na PJ de Faro, na presença do seu advogado oficioso, João Grade. Quando chegou ao local, apresentava sinais de cansaço e apatia.
Segundo soube o DN, há mais arguidos naquele caso, nomeadamente familiares do sexo masculino e amigos do padrasto da menor, Leandro Silva, aos quais foi recolhida há meses saliva para investigações sobre ADN. Recorde-se que há cerca de sete meses Carlos Alberto, meio-irmão de Leandro Silva, foi constituído arguido por suspeita de abusos sexuais, mas o processo foi arquivado pouco depois.
Vários familiares de Joana garantem inocência neste novo processo. "Nesta família não há assassinos nem pedófilos. Só pedimos que a PJ investigue tudo bem", apelaram, em declarações ao DN.
A suspeita de eventuais abusos sexuais foi, de resto, uma questão alvitrada por muitos populares na aldeia da Figueira, quando Joana desapareceu. E em Novembro de 2004, fontes ligadas à investigação começaram a passar a mensagem de que até haveria "pessoas importantes" envolvidas naquele caso. Contudo, a responsável de um minimercado naquela povoação disse na altura ao nosso jornal que, sensivelmente em Abril, aproveitou uma consulta da miúda no Hospital do Barlavento, em Portimão, para pedir aos médicos um exame à Joana, a fim de saber se tinha, de facto, sido vítima de violação. O teste foi negativo. Também os dois filhos do padrasto de Joana - Ruben e Lara, de três e dois anos, respectivamente - foram vistos pelos médicos, mas nada foi detectado nesse sentido.
http://www.dn.pt/especiais/interior.aspx?content_id=1006708&especial=Caso%20Joana&seccao=SOCIEDADE
These two points are worrying me all the time.
1. Just who are the important people? How do they fit into the case?
The black limousine cruising around keeps coming into my mind.
Also there is a lot of money around near Figuiera.
Within 6 miles we have:
The Lagos and also Portimao Marinas with beautiful motor yachts and other luxury vessels.
The small airstrip at Lagos for light aircraft
The airfield/ flying club for private planes only a mile away at Alvor and
The famous Penina Golf Course, internationally renouned I believe, also less than a mile away
Already in 2004, the spot for the prestigeouis Autodromo Internacional (racing car track) do Algarve is marked on GE. so moneyed important people would be visiting there
Also bountiful fishing, both ocean and inland.
Health farms
And
2. I simply cannot imagine anyone taking someone elses child to a doctors or a clinic/hospital to have her checked out for sexual abuse. I suppose it is possible, but it seems unlikely to me.... unless ....
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Isn't it bloody marvellous? Just seven months before her disappearance Joana was subjected to an internal examination in hospital to determine if she had been raped. The test was negative. Also the two children of the stepfather of Joana - Ruben and Lara, three and two years, respectively - were seen by doctors, but nothing was detected accordingly. Those poor little tots!
www.translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www.dn.pt/especiais/interior.aspx%3Fcontent_id%3D1006708%26especial%3DCaso%2520Joana%26seccao%3DSOCIEDADE&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwww.dn.pt/especiais/interior.aspx%253Fcontent_id%253D1006708%2526especial%253DCaso%252520Joana%2526seccao%253DSOCIEDADE
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Maybe one of our Portuguese speakers can translate this paragraph.
A suspeita de eventuais abusos sexuais foi, de resto, uma questão alvitrada por muitos populares na aldeia da Figueira, quando Joana desapareceu. E em Novembro de 2004, fontes ligadas à investigação começaram a passar a mensagem de que até haveria "pessoas importantes" envolvidas naquele caso. Contudo, a responsável de um minimercado naquela povoação disse na altura ao nosso jornal que, sensivelmente em Abril, aproveitou uma consulta da miúda no Hospital do Barlavento, em Portimão, para pedir aos médicos um exame à Joana, a fim de saber se tinha, de facto, sido vítima de violação. O teste foi negativo. Também os dois filhos do padrasto de Joana - Ruben e Lara, de três e dois anos, respectivamente - foram vistos pelos médicos, mas nada foi detectado nesse sentido.
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Maybe one of our Portuguese speakers can translate this paragraph.
A suspeita de eventuais abusos sexuais foi, de resto, uma questão alvitrada por muitos populares na aldeia da Figueira, quando Joana desapareceu. E em Novembro de 2004, fontes ligadas à investigação começaram a passar a mensagem de que até haveria "pessoas importantes" envolvidas naquele caso. Contudo, a responsável de um minimercado naquela povoação disse na altura ao nosso jornal que, sensivelmente em Abril, aproveitou uma consulta da miúda no Hospital do Barlavento, em Portimão, para pedir aos médicos um exame à Joana, a fim de saber se tinha, de facto, sido vítima de violação. O teste foi negativo. Também os dois filhos do padrasto de Joana - Ruben e Lara, de três e dois anos, respectivamente - foram vistos pelos médicos, mas nada foi detectado nesse sentido.
From what I can gather of that, the article is saying that:
- The issue of potential sexual abuse had been raised by many in the village when she disappeared.
- In Nov 2004 sources connected to the investigation started to convey the message that there may be "important people" involved.
- The head of the minimarket had told the newspaper that she had taken advantage of taking her to the hospital to ask for tests to check if she had, indeed, been raped. The test was negative.
- Doctors checked the two youngest, but nothing was detected.
I'm not sure whether that's all true. Supermarket lady did take her to hospital, according the files, for a bad cough, but that's all that I've been able to verify. One of the other witnesses (the schoolteacher?) said that she sometimes appeared inappropriately clothed for the weather. Someone in the village had contacted social services to ask them to check on the family, but when they turned up unexpectedly, the only reprimand was that the kids shouldn't eat too many crackers (which they were munching while Leonor was making lunch for them), according to Leandro's account in his press interview. She sometimes helped her mum around the house and helped care for the two younger ones, but also went to play with friends.
So far, I can't find anything that would lend credence to the idea that she'd been mistreated at all. There's nothing in the witness statements to that effect, aside from what I've just mentioned, but which doesn't strike me as out of the ordinary.
If there had been any substance to it, I would have thought that the prosecution would have made a feast of it. After all, it would have been a more credible allegation than wild incestuous sex on the livingroom sofa with an unlocked door when Leandro and the other guy could have popped in at any moment.
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Isn't it bloody marvellous? Just seven months before her disappearance Joana was subjected to an internal examination in hospital to determine if she had been raped. The test was negative. Also the two children of the stepfather of Joana - Ruben and Lara, three and two years, respectively - were seen by doctors, but nothing was detected accordingly. Those poor little tots!
www.translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www.dn.pt/especiais/interior.aspx%3Fcontent_id%3D1006708%26especial%3DCaso%2520Joana%26seccao%3DSOCIEDADE&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwww.dn.pt/especiais/interior.aspx%253Fcontent_id%253D1006708%2526especial%253DCaso%252520Joana%2526seccao%253DSOCIEDADE
Yep, the poor tots, but they may well have accepted the examinations, if done sensitively.
I am also thinking, the poor parents having that suspicion against them. In fact I am thinking the whole family was abused by these publicly announced and gone over examinations. It almost seems like another case of propaganda against them.
Propaganda is a powerful weapon. It destroys good people ... once it is put about it grows and undermines. It gathers strength and never completely goes away.
.... and certain peeps/ groups in PT seem to use the propaganda weapon quite frequently
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Yep, the poor tots, but they may well have accepted the examinations, if done sensitively.
I am also thinking, the poor parents having that suspicion against them. In fact I am thinking the whole family was abused by these publicly announced and gone over examinations. It almost seems like another case of propaganda against them.
Propaganda is a powerful weapon. It destroys good people ... once it is put about it grows and undermines. It gathers strength and never completely goes away.
.... and certain peeps/ groups in PT seem to use the propaganda weapon quite frequently
Propaganda is an evil weapon against defenceless people
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Isn't it bloody marvellous? Just seven months before her disappearance Joana was subjected to an internal examination in hospital to determine if she had been raped. The test was negative. Also the two children of the stepfather of Joana - Ruben and Lara, three and two years, respectively - were seen by doctors, but nothing was detected accordingly. Those poor little tots!
www.translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www.dn.pt/especiais/interior.aspx%3Fcontent_id%3D1006708%26especial%3DCaso%2520Joana%26seccao%3DSOCIEDADE&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwww.dn.pt/especiais/interior.aspx%253Fcontent_id%253D1006708%2526especial%253DCaso%252520Joana%2526seccao%253DSOCIEDADE
And nothing found. Isn't that bloody marvellous?
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And nothing found. Isn't that bloody marvellous?
Nothing conclusive then but semen belonging to Leandro found on Joana's underwear after her disappearance certainly raised a few eyebrows.
Now how could that have happened ??? (http://images.zaazu.com/img/thinking-idea-animated-animation-smiley-emoticon-000339-medium.gif)
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Nothing conclusive then but semen belonging to Leandro found on Joana's underwear after her disappearance certainly raised a few eyebrows.
Now how could that have happened ??? >@@(*&)
The filthy Bas**rds.
I can't find a single logical reason to believe these s..mbags are innocent, and obviously the jury couldn't find much room for doubt either.
It is sickening that the 'Support Group' overlook this particuarly disturbing bit of evidence and choose to support these vile animals.
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Leandro explained the semen to my satisfaction, and since he was never charged with anything then his explanation must have been accepted.
And No, I am not going to repeat what he said. But I will repeat that he was never charged with anything.
Or are you suggesting that he sexually abused Joana?
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Leandro explained the semen to my satisfaction, and since he was never charged with anything then his explanation must have been accepted.
And No, I am not going to repeat what he said. But I will repeat that he was never charged with anything.
Or are you suggesting that he sexually abused Joana?
WTF
'Oopsie daisy, I accidently spilled my seed on an 8 year olds knickers'
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WTF
'Oopsie daisy, I accidently spilled my seed on an 8 year olds knickers'
The PJ accepted his explanation. No charges were ever brought against him.
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The PJ accepted his explanation. No charges were ever brought against him.
He got lucky there then.
Of course there is absolutely nothing suspicious about it, happens all the time.
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He got lucky there then.
Of course there is absolutely nothing suspicious about it, happens all the time.
There is something very suspicious about their ability to DNA test Leandro's semen when they didn't DNA test the blood.
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WTF
'Oopsie daisy, I accidently spilled my seed on an 8 year olds knickers'
Oh, what would we do without you, Wonderfulspam?!
(Sorry, don't know much about the Cipriano case so just have a peek from time to time, but just had to comment).
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There is something very suspicious about their ability to DNA test Leandro's semen when they didn't DNA test the blood.
I suggest you get your facts in order before continuing posting unsubstantiated rubbish
A never happened, B did
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I suggest you get your facts in order before continuing posting unsubstantiated rubbish
A never happened, B did
Where did you get that from, Red?
Btw, Calm down Red
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There is something very suspicious about their ability to DNA test Leandro's semen when they didn't DNA test the blood.
Actually you are wrong Eleanor and not for the first time in this case. They did test the remnants of the material they found which indeed turned out to be human blood. Unfortunately, Leonor and João had made such a good job of cleaning up with chemical cleaners that insufficient remained capable of returning a DNA result.
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So they cleaned the inside of the fridge with chemical cleaners and still managed to leave some blood behind. Then The PJ tested this blood to establish that it was human, but couldn't get any DNA? This doesn't sound very likely to me.
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Because he could have argued that he ran out of kleenex, the sock was full up & he couldn't reach the curtains.
Would you trust him to babysit?
A woman is convicted of Murder on No Body and No Forensic Evidence, and accused of Incest, while in the same case a possible Paedophile walks away scott free leaving his DNA all over a child's underwear.
The PJ obviously believed him, and failed to beat a confession out of him. But then they were only interested in convicting Joana's mother and uncle of murder on far less evidence.
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So they cleaned the inside of the fridge with chemical cleaners and still managed to leave some blood behind. Then The PJ tested this blood to establish that it was human, but couldn't get any DNA? This doesn't sound very likely to me.
It is much easier to determine if a substance is blood and even human blood than it is to derive LCN results from a very small sample. All I know is they tried to obtain DNA but were unsuccessful.
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A woman is convicted of Murder on No Body and No Forensic Evidence, and accused of Incest, while in the same case a possible Paedophile walks away scott free leaving his DNA all over a child's underwear.
The PJ obviously believed him, and failed to beat a confession out of him. But then they were only interested in convicting Joana's mother and uncle of murder on far less evidence.
Just my own theory Eleanor but I believe it was a case of prosecuting the greater evil and they needed Leandro on side if you understand my meaning. They needed his cooperation and his testimony.
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Just my own theory Eleanor but I believe it was a case of prosecuting the greater evil and they needed Leandro on side if you understand my meaning. They needed his cooperation and his testimony.
Are there any fiendish tricks they won't get up to? And in which case why beat up Leandro and put him in hospital for two days if they could threaten him with a charge of Paedophilia?
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Are there any fiendish tricks they won't get up to? And in which case why beat up Leandro and put him in hospital for two days if they could threaten him with a charge of Paedophilia?
They probably did both Eleanor.
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They probably did both Eleanor.
Nasty people. And you think it was a safe conviction?
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Nasty people. And you think it was a safe conviction?
I think two people don't independently confess to the same crime if they are completely innocent.
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Leandro explained the semen to my satisfaction, and since he was never charged with anything then his explanation must have been accepted.
And No, I am not going to repeat what he said. But I will repeat that he was never charged with anything.
Or are you suggesting that he sexually abused Joana?
The knickers were apparently found in a pile of clothes in a dirty-laundry basket.
As, years later, what the PJ's scientific guys decided was semen on a bedcover was eventually discovered to have been a baby's saliva in the Madeleine case, I wonder what tests they did.
The story of whose semen it actually was seems clear as mud. According to Leandro's press interview, at various points it was thought that it might have been Leandro's, João's or that of Leandro's half-brother.
As far as I'm aware the "forensic" sweep didn't take place until 10 days later. If ever the child had been abused, it might have helped if the house had been sealed off and a forensic sweep done straight away. As far as I'm aware the so-called forensic sweep didn't take place until 10 days later (22 Sept).
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I think two people don't independently confess to the same crime if they are completely innocent.
They do if they are being 'encouraged' to confess what they are being told they have done - after hours and hours of 'robust' interrogation. IMO
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They do if they are being 'encouraged' to confess what they are being told they have done - after hours and hours of 'robust' interrogation. IMO
I agree, Benice.
Just a glance at the Innocence Project study shows how high the percentage of false confessions actually is (or has been)... and that study concerned the US.
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Support the Ciprianos T- Shirts, now available in blood red only.
Unique hacksaw logo and...
'I believe the Ciprianos are innocent' written in a suspicious smelling white stained font.
Available via the Find Madeleine website.
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Support the Ciprianos T- Shirts, now available in blood red only.
Unique hacksaw logo and...
'I believe the Ciprianos are innocent' written in a suspicious smelling white stained font.
Available via the Find Madeleine website.
You norty little attention seeker you.
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Support the Ciprianos T- Shirts, now available in blood red only.
Unique hacksaw logo and...
'I believe the Ciprianos are innocent' written in a suspicious smelling white stained font.
Available via the Find Madeleine website.
Is this meant to be an example of "shockjock humour"? I find it disrespectful towards two missing children and their families. I'll be interested to see how many of the so-called sceptics on here high-five that with approving smilies.
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Is this meant to be an example of "shockjock humour"? I find it disrespectful towards two missing children and their families. I'll be interested to see how many of the so-called sceptics on here high-five that with approving smilies.
Probably none but thats not the point.
The point is Joana is dead, her family are total scuzz buckets & the case is used by the McCanns as a defence.
No one here gives a shit about Joana, they are merely interested in protecting the abduction fantasy.
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Probably none but thats not the point.
The point is Joana is dead, her family are total scuzz buckets & the case is used by the McCanns as a defence.
No one here gives a shit about Joana, they are merely interested in protecting the abduction fantasy.
And you, sadly, have no knowledge of people who genuinely care. In your world everyone is a scuzz bucket, apart from you, presumably. Or do you include yourself in this horrible world that you inhabit?
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And you, sadly, have no knowledge of people who genuinely care. In your world everyone is a scuzz bucket, apart from you, presumably. Or do you include yourself in this horrible world that you inhabit?
No, in my world not everyone is a scuzz bucket, and I'm no saint, obviously.
The Cipriano family (mother, stepfather, uncle) however are, not just in my world, since an 8 year old relative of theirs was probably neglected & beaten at the least, possibly sexually abused at worst, before being murdered & butchered.
I can't find too much to like about that I'm afraid.
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No, in my world not everyone is a scuzz bucket, and I'm no saint, obviously.
The Cipriano family (mother, stepfather, uncle) however are, not just in my world, since an 8 year old relative of theirs was probably neglected & beaten at the least, possibly sexually abused at worst, before being murdered & butchered.
I can't find too much to like about that I'm afraid.
I was actually talking about people like me. My motivation isn't entirely McCann or Cipriano motivated.
I will forever rather be wrong about both Cases than have a mind like yours.
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No, in my world not everyone is a scuzz bucket, and I'm no saint, obviously.
The Cipriano family (mother, stepfather, uncle) however are, not just in my world, since an 8 year old relative of theirs was probably neglected & beaten at the least, possibly sexually abused at worst, before being murdered & butchered.
I can't find too much to like about that I'm afraid.
I'd agree with you if I'd found anything to convince me that the alleged scenario actually happened. So far, I haven't.
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I'd agree with you if I'd found anything to convince me that the alleged scenario actually happened. So far, I haven't.
Funny, I might be convinced she were abducted if I found anything to suggest she was.
Convince me.
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Probably none but thats not the point.
The point is Joana is dead, her family are total scuzz buckets & the case is used by the McCanns as a defence.
No one here gives a shit about Joana, they are merely interested in protecting the abduction fantasy.
I disagree.
I'm not that naive, I'm perfectly aware that some families beat their kids, ending in death, and dispose of the bodies, with a false claim of abduction.
Each case has to be taken on its own. In this one, I simply haven't found anything concrete to suggest that this was the case.
There is simply no evidence that Joana died... although she might have done. If so, how and at whose hands has never been elucidated aside from what I believe to be a case that should have been thrown out pending any concrete, probative, evidence.
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Funny, I might be convinced she were abducted if I found anything to suggest she was.
Convince me.
How many cases of abduction have irrefutable proof?
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Probably none but thats not the point.
The point is Joana is dead, her family are total scuzz buckets & the case is used by the McCanns as a defence.
No one here gives a shit about Joana, they are merely interested in protecting the abduction fantasy.
Try something... no need to answer.
Spend a few minutes thinking of someone who means a lot to you.
What if that person was missing and no one was looking for them?
Or if you felt that that person was being falsely accused of a crime against someone else?
How would that make you feel? What would your reaction be?
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Hmm. According to the forensic results, there was a speck of unidentified and undated blood to the left of the sofa.
No kidding.
Unless the room had been moved around, the left side of the sofa is just beside the kitchen counter.
Was this human or animal blood? Or didn't it matter?
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This is interesting from Machado / Costa
Dilemas da super-ciência: representações da genética forense na imprensa em Portugal
http://www.aps.pt/vicongresso/pdfs/700.pdf
It's about the CSI effect and how it's exploited in the tabloid media. There are some choice passages about the Joana case.
ETA: I thought I'd found it in English, but it wasn't the same one.
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This is interesting from Machado / Costa
Dilemas da super-ciência: representações da genética forense na imprensa em Portugal
http://www.aps.pt/vicongresso/pdfs/700.pdf
It's about the CSI effect and how it's exploited in the tabloid media. There are some choice passages about the Joana case.
ETA: I thought I'd found it in English, but it wasn't the same one.
Actually the Google is quite good
In both cases analyzed, the most common was observed at different times of the two variants
called "CSI effect", implied in media discourses. The rhetoric of "strong charge", which celebrates
contribution and the importance of forensic genetics to solve crimes, and may take forms
reverential (Costa et al, 2002: 205) is also monitored, in case "Maddie" implicit references for
the need for expansion of this kind of technology
ix
By setting up new application possibilities of
Genetic criminal investigation, by creating a database of DNA profiles (as in the United
Kingdom occurred in 1995 and Portugal in 2008 alone). The discourse of "weak charge", conversely,
exposes their uncertainties and contingencies.
However, both cases came, in a way, exposed to the public some of the dilemmas and contingencies
forensic genetics, to the extent that rapid and efficient solution promises cases style "CSI"
They fall short in the confrontation with reality. The media representations of forensic genetics in these
cases are framed in the form of dramatic narratives that could become episodes of "CSI."
Thus, science is seen as the (only) solution promise of crimes, as it grows the
dramatic tension, as a result of media speculation and lack of conventional explanations for the
occurred facts.
The outcome of the case "Joan" with the conviction of the suspects, and the anticipated filing of the case
"Maddie," does not cease to remember that children have not been found and his fate remains very
probably unknown. Given the promises and uncertainties surrounding the forensic uses of biology
molecular, support or denial of citizens about the expansion of genetic databases for
forensic uses is likely to be anchored in media representations of forensics in real cases, and
not only in their fictional idealizations. The analysis of cases "Joan" and "Maddie" comes up
following questions: Would such cases, the media coverage and social alarm they raise, are likely to
justify expanding the expansion in Portugal, more and more intrusive forms of surveillance, which
pass particular the extension of video surveillance and expansion of inclusion criteria and
Retention DNA profiles in databases for forensic intentions (Machado et al., 2008), sustained
in belief in the unlimited potential of science and technology? Or do these cases come for short
in the public eye the contingent and limited nature of forensic science, making them more citizens
skeptical before the security on offer privacy change?
https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=pt&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aps.pt%2Fvicongresso%2Fpdfs%2F700.pdf&edit-text=
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Mostly relates to the detection of human blood, semen and chemicals used for cleaning in the family home.
I'm sure you would find all those in every house
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I'm sure you would find all those in every house
Im sure you will not find human blood in the fridge of every house or semen in chldrens clothes either!!!!!
Theres a river in egypt callled...... 6 words begnning with a d
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Im sure you will not find human blood in the fridge of every house or semen in chldrens clothes either!!!!!
Theres a river in egypt callled...... 6 words begnning with a d
the blood did not match joanna...children who sleep in adults beds may well pick up semen ...how much semen was found