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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on May 01, 2015, 12:00:56 PM

Title: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on May 01, 2015, 12:00:56 PM
Portugal Newswatch

Reflections on current affairs in Portugal by journalist and author Len Port.
Thursday, April 30, 2015

Amaral to appeal McCanns' libel action

The McCanns partially won their libel action against the author and former lead detective Gonçalo Amaral, but the matter is far from over.

(http://i.imgur.com/P0Uk3Bv.jpg?1)

Amaral intends to appeal. In his first comment on the verdict he said: “I find that the court’s decision is unfair and questions my right and every Portuguese citizen's right to freedom of expression and of opinion. For that reason, I do not resign myself to the decision and I will appeal it until the very last judicial instance.”

Apart from Amaral’s assertion on the “unfairness” of the court’s decision, there were two remarkable features about the verdict and the way in which it was announced that got little or no mention in the mainstream media coverage.

The first unusual aspect was the huge sum awarded. It may be normal in the UK, but not here. Amaral was ordered to pay the parents of Madeleine McCann half a million euros in damages, plus interest, currently calculated at €106,000 and rising.

Kate and Gerry McCann had sought a total of €1.2 million. In addition to €250,000 each, they claimed €500,000 for Madeleine and €100,000 for each of their twins. The judge ruled against the claims on behalf of the children.

The McCanns successfully claimed that Amaral’s book, Maddie, the Truth of the Lie,  caused them great personal distress. The judge did not agree, however, that the book had hindered the search for Madeleine or had caused damages to the twins.

 Should Amaral on appeal get the verdict overturned, or the compensation figure greatly reduced, the McCanns may lodge a counter appeal. The deadline for appeals is 40 days. The legal battle that has been going on for more than five years looks like continuing for some time yet.

A defiant Amaral supporter noted that, “a decision from a Portuguese court can only be enforced after all appeals are exhausted. No money will change hands until a final decision is reached by the very last appeals court.” With this in mind, other well-wishers are being urged to make donations to a Gonçalo Amaral defence fund.

The second oddity was the way in which the announcement of the verdict was handled. The judge’s ruling was not read out in court. It was contained in a 52-page report, which was received by the McCann’s Lisbon lawyer Isabel Duarte who swiftly passed it on to media organisations in Portugal and abroad.

Soon after the news appeared on media websites on Tuesday, Kate and Gerry McCann said they were “delighted” with the outcome.  In a statement issued by their spokesman Clarence Mitchell, they said the case had never been about money. “It was entirely focused on the effect of the libels on our other children and the damage that was done to the search for Madeleine.”

When contacted by journalists the same day, Gonçalo Amaral chose not to comment because neither he nor his lawyer, Miguel Cruz Rodrigues, had received a copy of the ruling. They only received it the following day, by which time to many in the mainstream media it was old news.
       
Madeleine went missing on 3rd May 2007.

www.algarvenewswatch.blogspot.co.uk/

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Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 01, 2015, 12:08:02 PM
whooooo john not a good day for mcann supporters dossier   was  found to be   NOT  illegal and now  this *&*%£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 01, 2015, 12:20:34 PM
I'd agree that the amount seems huge by PT standards, but so were Amaral's gains. From what could be legally established, he made €382k in around two years. Is that not an above average income for most Portuguese? Strangely, that fact isn't often mentioned, either.

Re: The judge did not agree, however, that the book had hindered the search for Madeleine


I accept that as a loose formulation, but the issue (IMO) is not that she disagreed, but there as no supporting evidence to the contrary.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 01, 2015, 12:20:58 PM
john  does this mean  the mcanns   wont see   any  of the money for a long  time??
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on May 01, 2015, 12:24:08 PM
john  does this mean  the mcanns   wont see   any  of the money for a long  time??

Given the bottleneck in the Portuguese justice system this will undoubtedly take years to come to a conclusion.  Hopefully by then the truth relating to Madeleine will be known.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 01, 2015, 12:27:10 PM
Given the bottleneck in the Portuguese justice system this will undoubtedly take years to come to a conclusion.  Hopefully by then the truth relating to Madeleine will be known.


good  for  GA 8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 01, 2015, 01:12:02 PM
I'd agree that the amount seems huge by PT standards, but so were Amaral's earnings. From what could be legally established, he earned €382k in around two years. Is that not an above average income for most Portuguese? Strangely, that fact isn't often mentioned, either.

Re: The judge did not agree, however, that the book had hindered the search for Madeleine


I accept that as a loose formulation, but the issue (IMO) is not that she disagreed, but there as no supporting evidence to the contrary.

The Judgement implies that the damages were set at a level close to the potential profits made by Amaral. It is not specifically stated but the supporting cases and other cites suggests that that was her intent.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 01, 2015, 01:13:17 PM
john  does this mean  the mcanns   wont see   any  of the money for a long  time??

Yes, but Amaral's sequestered money and property will remain unavailable to him also. What is being fought over is Amaral's wealth held in escrow by the state.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 01, 2015, 01:14:16 PM
The Judgement implies that the damages were set at a level close to the potential profits made by Amaral. It is not specifically stated but the supporting cases and other cites suggests that that was her intent.

That's what I gather as well.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 01, 2015, 01:17:39 PM
His statement that

 “I find that the court’s decision is unfair and questions my right and every Portuguese citizen's right to freedom of expression and of opinion."

It certainly questions HIS right to do what he has done but does not impact on any other citizen not in possession of privileged information through their employment or otherwise breaking proferssional boundaries.

The facts on which the case is based will be difficult to overturn. He did accuse the Mccanns as guilty and he did use information gained from his privileged access.

In order to appeal he will have to show that reired police officers are allowed to call innocent people guilty and are allowed to use privileged information.

I doubt he will reach the bar to hearing vexatious cases.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 01, 2015, 01:27:45 PM
TRANSCRIPT DR AMARALS DOCUMENTARY

ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS FROM ASTRO

«The following programme is a documentary that is based on the book by Gonçalo Amaral, the former PJ inspector who investigated the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, in the Algarve. His version of the events is repudiated by Maddie’s parents, who continue to defend that this is an abduction case. The criminal process that was conducted by the Portuguese authorities ended with the archiving of the inquiry, a decision that was contested by Gonçalo Amaral. More than pointing out culprits, a task that belongs to justice, the broadcast of this documentary is destined to contribute for light to be shed on a case that remains an unsolved mystery, for almost two years, and that elements are given to help the public opinion to understand it

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/AMARAL_DOC_13_04_09.htm
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2015, 01:58:10 PM
His statement that

 “I find that the court’s decision is unfair and questions my right and every Portuguese citizen's right to freedom of expression and of opinion."

It certainly questions HIS right to do what he has done but does not impact on any other citizen not in possession of privileged information through their employment or otherwise breaking proferssional boundaries.

The facts on which the case is based will be difficult to overturn. He did accuse the Mccanns as guilty and he did use information gained from his privileged access.

In order to appeal he will have to show that reired police officers are allowed to call innocent people guilty and are allowed to use privileged information.

I doubt he will reach the bar to hearing vexatious cases.

so you think his request for appeal will be refused
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 01, 2015, 02:00:50 PM
so you think his request for appeal will be refused

I cannot see what his grounds for appeal could possibly be.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 01, 2015, 02:07:04 PM
I cannot see what his grounds for appeal could possibly be.

Lets see what happens.

and if he is successful in being granted an appeal, this will go on for years to come.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 01, 2015, 02:07:34 PM
I cannot see what his grounds for appeal could possibly be.

Couldn't he present countering jurisprudence as to the amount?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 01, 2015, 02:11:15 PM
Lets see what happens.

and if he is successful, this will go on for years to come.

there was such excitment about  GA  losing everything too wasnt there??  they should be careful what they wish for...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 01, 2015, 02:14:10 PM
there was such excitment about  GA  losing everything too wasnt there??  they should be careful what they wish for...

As we have seen, the Portuguese system is very slow, and nothing should be taken for granted.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 01, 2015, 02:22:51 PM
there was such excitment about  GA  losing everything too wasnt there??  they should be careful what they wish for...

I'm still delighted with the outcome...we all knew it could drag on with appeals...it's great that amaral has been humiliated by his own countries court
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on May 01, 2015, 02:32:19 PM
Is he going to appeal against the fact that he was still a Police Officer when he wrote his book?

Good luck with that one.

The money should go where it rightly should in the fund for Madeleine.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 01, 2015, 02:37:39 PM
Is he going to appeal against the fact that he was still a Police Officer when he wrote his book?

Good luck with that one.

The money should go where it rightly should in the fund for Madeleine.

Let's see what happens, shall we.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 01, 2015, 05:44:51 PM
Good to see that the McCanns will be able to counter-appeal (in the unlikely event that Amaral's appeal is successful).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 01, 2015, 07:08:24 PM
Jumping the gun a bit, perhaps.

Amaral has the right to appeal. 

Whether he has the ability to appeal remains to be seen.

He will need to establish grounds for appeal.  And find a lawyer willing and able to take the case.

Time will tell. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 01, 2015, 07:39:57 PM
Jumping the gun a bit, perhaps.

Amaral has the right to appeal. 

Whether he has the ability to appeal remains to be seen.

He will need to establish grounds for appeal.  And find a lawyer willing and able to take the case.

Time will tell.

Gonçalo Amaral already has a lawyer.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 01, 2015, 09:30:44 PM
Gonçalo Amaral already has a lawyer.

Mr Amaral's lawyers tend to come and go quite a bit ... he has parted company with a few. It remains to be seen how far the appeal process will progress, but it cannot be denied he is starting off on the back foot as it seems he is yesterday's man in the court of public opinion which most sceptics back hands down.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 01, 2015, 09:39:15 PM
Mr Amaral's lawyers tend to come and go quite a bit ... he has parted company with a few. It remains to be seen how far the appeal process will progress, but it cannot be denied he is starting off on the back foot as it seems he is yesterday's man in the court of public opinion which most sceptics back hands down.

What you or I or the public at large think of Dr Amaral is irrelevant. It will be a matter of law.
Unless of course in Portugal there is a requirement to grab a gash hand off the street and say "ere mate give us a verdict on this will ya?". Even the most biased supporter cannot believe that will be the case.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 01, 2015, 10:08:26 PM
What you or I or the public at large think of Dr Amaral is irrelevant. It will be a matter of law.
Unless of course in Portugal there is a requirement to grab a gash hand off the street and say "ere mate give us a verdict on this will ya?". Even the most biased supporter cannot believe that will be the case.

We have seen an example of Portuguese Law in operation with Judge Maria Emilia de Melo e Castro presiding. 

I doubt she has left many opportunities to appeal her decision so I rather suspect the auspices are less than favourable for such.
However it will be of interest to see what unfolds.

What has become very clear from her ruling is the rather tawdry circumstance in which the accusatory book was written; the author discarding integrity to make a quick buck while denigrating the presumption of innocence which as a law officer he was obliged to uphold.
To me that reads like a law enforcement officer with a contempt for the law, you put whatever interpretation on it you wish.

If you are happy to support such an individual that is fine by me ... but do try to keep your personal little digs out of your posts to me ... utterly tiresome and sooooo playgroundy.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 02, 2015, 12:22:47 AM
I think Goncalo Amaral may very well be on a hiding to nothing if he is allowed to appeal the decision made against him for the simple reason that he used privileged information and ignored the presumption of innocence.

The McCanns have clearly proved their point in a Portuguese Court.
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2015, 07:12:28 AM
Amaral is basically bankrupt...both financially and morally. He has been humiliated totally by the court in his own country. He has a choice of handing all his money to the McCanns or appealing. The appeal won't cost him apenny because he has nothing. He can count on the financial support of a handful of misguided supporters and who knows...if an appeal is allowed he just may get a better result next time...and if he doesn't...he has lost nothing
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 02, 2015, 07:47:56 AM
Amaral is basically bankrupt...both financially and morally. He has been humiliated totally by the court in his own country. He has a choice of handing all his money to the McCanns or appealing. The appeal won't cost him apenny because he has nothing. He can count on the financial support of a handful of misguided supporters and who knows...if an appeal is allowed he just may get a better result next time...and if he doesn't...he has lost nothing

His assets seized for now. Clearly yes.

The mccanns going to get money from him , doesn't look like it.

Mind you,increasing legal bills for sure, which will mount , year after year, with appeal after appeal, all the way to the European Court of Human Rights.

and that going by the backlog of nearly 70,000 cases, is a fiar way in the future.



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2015, 07:51:18 AM
His assets seized for now. Clearly yes.

The mccanns going to get money from him , doesn't look like it.

Mind you,increasing legal bills for sure, which will mount , year after year, with appeal after appeal, all the way to the European Court of Human Rights.

and that going by the backlog of nearly 70,000 cases, is a fiar way in the future.



and all this time amaral lives in penury...for the rest of his miserable life is a phrase that I have heard brfore
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 02, 2015, 08:23:16 AM
We have seen an example of Portuguese Law in operation with Judge Maria Emilia de Melo e Castro presiding. 

I doubt she has left many opportunities to appeal her decision so I rather suspect the auspices are less than favourable for such.
However it will be of interest to see what unfolds.

What has become very clear from her ruling is the rather tawdry circumstance in which the accusatory book was written; the author discarding integrity to make a quick buck while denigrating the presumption of innocence which as a law officer he was obliged to uphold.
To me that reads like a law enforcement officer with a contempt for the law, you put whatever interpretation on it you wish.

If you are happy to support such an individual that is fine by me ... but do try to keep your personal little digs out of your posts to me ... utterly tiresome and sooooo playgroundy.

Could you specify what you see as the main routes of appeal, either factual or legal. I can see none.

The duties of confidentiality and to maintain innocence are clearly part of Portuguese Law.

Amaral undoubtedly used privileged information and accused the McCanns.

Where is the route to appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 02, 2015, 08:31:58 AM
His assets seized for now. Clearly yes.

The mccanns going to get money from him , doesn't look like it.

Mind you,increasing legal bills for sure, which will mount , year after year, with appeal after appeal, all the way to the European Court of Human Rights.

and that going by the backlog of nearly 70,000 cases, is a fiar way in the future.

One can only appeal if one has grounds.

One can only appeal to the ECHR if it is a matter of Human Rights- it is not a Supreme Court, only a Tribunal interpreting the European Convention.

Legal Costs also build on each side. In Portugal I understand that lawyers fees are paid by each side and there are rarely costs awarded against one side alone.

I can see no easy grounds for appeal- appeals are not automatic and require permission.

I understand that the McCanns are indemnified for their legal costs a d Amaral is not.

I think it may be over bar the shouting.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 02, 2015, 08:41:30 AM
One can only appeal if one has grounds.

One can only appeal to the ECHR if it is a matter of Human Rights- it is not a Supreme Court, only a Tribunal interpreting the European Convention.

Legal Costs also build on each side. In Portugal I understand that lawyers fees are paid by each side and there are rarely costs awarded against one side alone.

I can see no easy grounds for appeal- appeals are not automatic and require permission.

I understand that the McCanns are indemnified for their legal costs a d Amaral is not.

I think it may be over bar the shouting.

I don't know much about the law, but the point about Amaral being obliged to uphold the presumption of innocence seems a little bit dodgy to me. He was taken off the case in October 2007, so he was no longer involved in the judicial process after that. Once the case was archived the McCanns were no longer suspects they have said. So he was not involved in the process and not casting doubt on the innocence of suspects?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 02, 2015, 08:42:09 AM
One can only appeal if one has grounds.

One can only appeal to the ECHR if it is a matter of Human Rights- it is not a Supreme Court, only a Tribunal interpreting the European Convention.

Legal Costs also build on each side. In Portugal I understand that lawyers fees are paid by each side and there are rarely costs awarded against one side alone.

I can see no easy grounds for appeal- appeals are not automatic and require permission.

I understand that the McCanns are indemnified for their legal costs a d Amaral is not.

I think it may be over bar the shouting.

Well we will soon find out if Amaral has grounds for appeal.

Does their indemnity  extend to the Portuguese case ?

As Amaral was able to successfully appeal against the original banning of the book, an appeal is possible.

Also, the judge made their own interpretation of the law, and there is no guarantee that an appeal judge, if one happens will make the same decisions.

Likewise the sheer size of the financial award seems unprecedented in Portugal. He could possibly be entitled to make an appeal on those grounds.

Are there any comparable cases in Portuguese history ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 02, 2015, 08:54:42 AM
Well we will soon find out if Amaral has grounds for appeal.

Does their indemnity  extend to the Portuguese case ?

As Amaral was able to successfully appeal against the original banning of the book, an appeal is possible.

Also, the judge made their own interpretation of the law, and there is no guarantee that an appeal judge, if one happens will make the same decisions.

Likewise the sheer size of the financial award seems unprecedented in Portugal. He could possibly be entitled to make an appeal on those grounds.

Are there any comparable cases in Portuguese history ?

There was a clear route to appeal the banning of the book as it involved a Human Rights issue.

Every country I know of places restrictions on the use of privileged information and the argument that all officers of the legal system are duty bound to promote the innocence of people unless acting formally in the role of prosecution.

For instance it is legal to state as truth in court that a person has committed a crime. But if the person steps out of the role and says that in public it becomes not only Libel but also a breach of their official duties and hence actionable for damages.

The judge examines the question of damages very carefully and makes an impressive case.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 02, 2015, 09:00:32 AM
Perhaps this is what will allow an appeal to be made?

8. Appeal
 
 
8.1 Grounds for appeal
The general rule is that a party may appeal to the court of second instance (“Tribunal da Relação”) when the value of the lawsuit is higher than EUR5,000 and the decision is unfavourable to the appealing party in an amount higher than EUR2,500.01 (Cf. Article 629 of the CPC). The court of second instance decides both on legal and factual issues.

A party may appeal to the Supreme Court when the value of the lawsuit is higher than EUR30,000 and the decision is unfavourable to the appealing party in an amount higher than EUR15,000.01.

The Supreme Court only rules on legal issues and, in most cases, cannot revoke the second instance judgment concerning the proven facts.

In most cases the parties cannot move to the Supreme Court if the first and the second instance courts have issued identical decisions with similar grounds.

The general rule is that the appeal does not suspend the proceedings unless the appealing party pays a deposit or presents a bank guarantee.
http://www.chambersandpartners.com/guide/practice-guides/location/241/6617/1422-200#questiongroup_299
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 02, 2015, 09:04:59 AM
There was a clear route to appeal the banning of the book as it involved a Human Rights issue.

Every country I know of places restrictions on the use of privileged information and the argument that all officers of the legal system are duty bound to promote the innocence of people unless acting formally in the role of prosecution.

For instance it is legal to state as truth in court that a person has committed a crime. But if the person steps out of the role and says that in public it becomes not only Libel but also a breach of their official duties and hence actionable for damages.

The judge examines the question of damages very carefully and makes an impressive case.

We shall see in the course of the next few months if there is to be an appeal.

How much of the information in the book was already in the public domain already ?

Clearly he began to write the book before he left the police, but as is known, the book was published after he left.

He clearly was not the only person who has accused the mccanns of hiding her body ?

Why haven't the mccanns taken to court anyone else who has said the same thing ?

and as you well know the case of the cause of Madeleine's disappearance remains unknown.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 02, 2015, 09:10:26 AM
There was a clear route to appeal the banning of the book as it involved a Human Rights issue.

Every country I know of places restrictions on the use of privileged information and the argument that all officers of the legal system are duty bound to promote the innocence of people unless acting formally in the role of prosecution.

For instance it is legal to state as truth in court that a person has committed a crime. But if the person steps out of the role and says that in public it becomes not only Libel but also a breach of their official duties and hence actionable for damages.

The judge examines the question of damages very carefully and makes an impressive case.


Is this not normally an "offence against the State", as in contravention of the Official Secrets Act, rather than a civil action?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 02, 2015, 09:14:38 AM
Perhaps this is what will allow an appeal to be made?

8. Appeal
 
 
8.1 Grounds for appeal
The general rule is that a party may appeal to the court of second instance (“Tribunal da Relação”) when the value of the lawsuit is higher than EUR5,000 and the decision is unfavourable to the appealing party in an amount higher than EUR2,500.01 (Cf. Article 629 of the CPC). The court of second instance decides both on legal and factual issues.

A party may appeal to the Supreme Court when the value of the lawsuit is higher than EUR30,000 and the decision is unfavourable to the appealing party in an amount higher than EUR15,000.01.

The Supreme Court only rules on legal issues and, in most cases, cannot revoke the second instance judgment concerning the proven facts.

In most cases the parties cannot move to the Supreme Court if the first and the second instance courts have issued identical decisions with similar grounds.

The general rule is that the appeal does not suspend the proceedings unless the appealing party pays a deposit or presents a bank guarantee.
http://www.chambersandpartners.com/guide/practice-guides/location/241/6617/1422-200#questiongroup_299

That is very useful.

So no appeal on Proven Facts.

Amaral was a retired police officer and he did use privileged information.

So the judgement is only open to appeal on grounds of interpretation of the law.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 02, 2015, 09:19:12 AM
We shall see in the course of the next few months if there is to be an appeal.

How much of the information in the book was already in the public domain already ?

Clearly he began to write the book before he left the police, but as is known, the book was published after he left.

He clearly was not the only person who has accused the mccanns of hiding her body ?

Why haven't the mccanns taken to court anyone else who has said the same thing ?

and as you well know the case of the cause of Madeleine's disappearance remains unknown.

It does not matter how much privileged information was used. Additionally the judge made a lot of the fact that the book was published only days after the release of the files, meaning that Amaral must have used his access to privileged material to write the book.

He was the only person who was an officer of the state to do so outwith their official role. 

The fate of Madeleine is immaterial.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 02, 2015, 09:37:00 AM
I don't hate amaral...I hate what he stands for....injustice...I just can't stand it.

That is a matter of opinion.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 02, 2015, 09:47:39 AM
It does not matter how much privileged information was used. Additionally the judge made a lot of the fact that the book was published only days after the release of the files, meaning that Amaral must have used his access to privileged material to write the book.

He was the only person who was an officer of the state to do so outwith their official role. 

The fate of Madeleine is immaterial.

Precisely what privileged information did he use ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 02, 2015, 09:48:43 AM
We have seen an example of Portuguese Law in operation with Judge Maria Emilia de Melo e Castro presiding. 

I doubt she has left many opportunities to appeal her decision so I rather suspect the auspices are less than favourable for such.
However it will be of interest to see what unfolds.

What has become very clear from her ruling is the rather tawdry circumstance in which the accusatory book was written; the author discarding integrity to make a quick buck while denigrating the presumption of innocence which as a law officer he was obliged to uphold.
To me that reads like a law enforcement officer with a contempt for the law, you put whatever interpretation on it you wish.

If you are happy to support such an individual that is fine by me ... but do try to keep your personal little digs out of your posts to me ... utterly tiresome and sooooo playgroundy.

Please show me where I have said I support Dr Amaral.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2015, 10:05:47 AM
How does he stand for injustice?

to promote someones guilt when the evidence does not support it
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 02, 2015, 10:18:47 AM
Precisely what privileged information did he use ?

A/ The book was published only three days after the release of the files. It was not written in three days. Therefore Amaral abused his position by using privileged access to the information in a manner that was not open to other people.

B/ There are items in the book (for instance information about Jane Tanner) that is not in the Files.

Taken together that indicates that beyond reasonable doubt Amaral abused his privilege.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 02, 2015, 10:19:01 AM
Amaral is basically bankrupt...both financially and morally. He has been humiliated totally by the court in his own country. He has a choice of handing all his money to the McCanns or appealing. The appeal won't cost him apenny because he has nothing. He can count on the financial support of a handful of misguided supporters and who knows...if an appeal is allowed he just may get a better result next time...and if he doesn't...he has lost nothing

Whatever one's bias in real terms that is gamble worth taking. Risking someone elses money to get out from under is a heaven sent opportunity. Cutting out all the moral and legal claptrap it is a good deal; when push comes to shove I don't see many people turning that down. With the possible exception of the Amish and The We Free of course
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 02, 2015, 10:24:36 AM
to promote someones guilt when the evidence does not support it

Amaral and his colleagues looked at the evidence and came to a conclusion. Others have expressed doubts about the happenings of 3rd may 2007. John Stalker thought those involved were hiding something, but he didn't know what. Prof. Barclay mentioned 'staging' of the abduction scenario. Amaral and his colleagues were and are not alone in drawing different conclusions from yours. That doesn't make them wrong and you right, it just means they are drawing conclusions which you disagree with.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 02, 2015, 10:29:42 AM
I believe that Gonçalo Amaral has plenty of reasons to appeal the dog's dinner of a ruling which repeated most of the arguments from February 2010 and which was overturned by the Tribunal de Relação.

How can this judge in a civil case decide that GA is guilty of abusing his position as a policeman, 7 years after the fact, when he has never been censured by the PJ hierarchy, even after the book came out? Furthermore, her verdict has totally contradicted and overturned rulings made by a higher court which is legally unsustainable.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2015, 10:32:31 AM
Amaral and his colleagues looked at the evidence and came to a conclusion. Others have expressed doubts about the happenings of 3rd may 2007. John Stalker thought those involved were hiding something, but he didn't know what. Prof. Barclay mentioned 'staging' of the abduction scenario. Amaral and his colleagues were and are not alone in drawing different conclusions from yours. That doesn't make them wrong and you right, it just means they are drawing conclusions which you disagree with.

amaral and his colleagues misunderstood the evidence...that's  a crime in itself....when the PJ had the results of the dna they realised there was no case against the mccanns.....amaral still thinks there is

professor Barclay made his statements having heard the false leaked dna reports and before hearing the correct results. he also only discussed parental involvement as one possibility and did not accuse the mccanns of anything..
amaral directly accused the mccanns of being involved in maddies death..he si a disgrace and deserves his punishment
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 02, 2015, 10:58:12 AM
I believe that Gonçalo Amaral has plenty of reasons to appeal the dog's dinner of a ruling which repeated most of the arguments from February 2010 and which was overturned by the Tribunal de Relação.

How can this judge in a civil case decide that GA is guilty of abusing his position as a policeman, 7 years after the fact, when he has never been censured by the PJ hierarchy, even after the book came out? Furthermore, her verdict has totally contradicted and overturned rulings made by a higher court which is legally unsustainable.

He has not been found "guilty", he has been found liable - it is a tort not a crime. It has been found that his abuse of his duties as an officer of the legal system (even though retired) led to harm (both reputational and psychological)  to the McCanns and consequently he must pay them damages to compensate.

The judgement does not overrule the SC judgement which concerned the clash of rights between ordinary citizens- hence why the Publishers and TV company were not sanctioned, but Amaral was.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 02, 2015, 11:00:56 AM
amaral and his colleagues misunderstood the evidence...that's  a crime in itself....when the PJ had the results of the dna they realised there was no case against the mccanns.....amaral still thinks there is

professor Barclay made his statements having heard the false leaked dna reports and before hearing the correct results. he also only discussed parental involvement as one possibility and did not accuse the mccanns of anything..
amaral directly accused the mccanns of being involved in maddies death..he si a disgrace and deserves his punishment

Misunderstanding the evidence is neither a crime nor a tort. Investigators have a privileged position and protection for their statements when working within that role.

What Amaral did was to continue to abuse his privilege after he had lost the protection.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2015, 11:35:14 AM
Whatever one's bias in real terms that is gamble worth taking. Risking someone elses money to get out from under is a heaven sent opportunity. Cutting out all the moral and legal claptrap it is a good deal; when push comes to shove I don't see many people turning that down. With the possible exception of the Amish and The We Free of course

I agree..it's a no brainer...nothing brave about it...he has no alternative
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 02, 2015, 11:41:05 AM
Amaral and his colleagues looked at the evidence and came to a conclusion. Others have expressed doubts about the happenings of 3rd may 2007. John Stalker thought those involved were hiding something, but he didn't know what. Prof. Barclay mentioned 'staging' of the abduction scenario. Amaral and his colleagues were and are not alone in drawing different conclusions from yours. That doesn't make them wrong and you right, it just means they are drawing conclusions which you disagree with.

Goncalo Amaral was in a privileged position as co-ordinator of the inquiry into Madeleine McCann's disappearance which was what gave his 'opinion' considerable weight and led to a lucrative career as a media pundit.

The judge has ruled that it was exactly that access to privileged information allowed by his official position which debarred him from publicly expressing an opinion by using it.

I have the impression that fact in combination with the total disregard for the McCanns' right to a presumption of innocence which has determined her ruling and I am told what is the unprecedented amount awarded to the McCanns.

I don't think there are grounds for appeal there as I am sure she knows exactly what she is talking about and another Portuguese Court is hardly going to undermine Portuguese Law laid out so clearly in Judge Maria Emilia de Melo e Castro's ruling.

In another post you gave a link which suggested what I think that may be his only avenue for appeal, which is the amount of the award.
If so … hardly worth the bother since it was his good name and honour which he said motivated him in the past.
I think both of those are irretrievably shredded.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2015, 12:06:32 PM
Misunderstanding the evidence is neither a crime nor a tort. Investigators have a privileged position and protection for their statements when working within that role.

What Amaral did was to continue to abuse his privilege after he had lost the protection.

"that's a crime" was a figure of speech...a play on words in the context of the discussion
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 02, 2015, 12:08:59 PM
@ Brietta

You said;

"In another post you gave a link which suggested what I think that may be his only avenue for appeal, which is the amount of the award.
If so … hardly worth the bother since it was his good name and honour which he said motivated him in the past.
I think both of those are irretrievably shredded"

You think that his good name and honour are 'shredded', but others don't. Donations to his legal fees are continuing.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 02, 2015, 12:44:50 PM
@ Brietta

You said;

"In another post you gave a link which suggested what I think that may be his only avenue for appeal, which is the amount of the award.
If so … hardly worth the bother since it was his good name and honour which he said motivated him in the past.
I think both of those are irretrievably shredded"

You think that his good name and honour are 'shredded', but others don't. Donations to his legal fees are continuing.


I am sure that those making donations to his legal fees are content to do so but it could be a long running thing for them if an appeal is allowed and he takes the process to exhaustion, which in theory could be several years down the line.

Sometimes it is better all round to accept defeat gracefully and allow everyone ~ including Mr Amaral ~ to get on with the important things in life.

Yes, I do believe the ruling of the Portuguese Court leaves his reputation in tatters; as a matter of interest what is the ratio of Portuguese doners to the cause in relation to British ones?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 02, 2015, 01:09:26 PM
He has not been found "guilty", he has been found liable - it is a tort not a crime. It has been found that his abuse of his duties as an officer of the legal system (even though retired) led to harm (both reputational and psychological)  to the McCanns and consequently he must pay them damages to compensate.

The judgement does not overrule the SC judgement which concerned the clash of rights between ordinary citizens- hence why the Publishers and TV company were not sanctioned, but Amaral was.

The judgement does overrule the SC ruling because the judgement by the Tribunal de Relação (which was upheld by the SC) does make reference to the fact that although Gonçalo Amaral was a retired public servant he still enjoyed the rights to freedom of speech as any other citizen.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 02, 2015, 01:19:17 PM
The judgement does overrule the SC ruling because it does take into consideration the fact that Gonçalo Amaral was a retired public servant.

It does not overrule the SC decision. In law it could not.

The SC only considered whether straightforward possible defamation was counter balanced by a right to Freedom of Expression. It decided in favour of the latter if what was being expressed was an honest opinion. So there was no libel.

This judgement has decided that unlawful actions by a public servant can harm individuals, and those individuals are due damages for such a tort. That is nothing to do with libel, but to do with a duty of confidentiality.

Libel requires that the assertion be false. This judgement applies whatever the truth status of the material.


Let me give you an example:

Celebrity X visits a doctor and tests positive for HIV.
The doctor shares this with the press.
The information is true but still causes harm.
Because the information was privileged, the celebrity could sue for damages to counter the harm done.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 02, 2015, 01:22:17 PM
It does not overrule the SC decision. In law it could not.

The SC only considered whether straightforward possible defamation was counter balanced by a right to Freedom of Expression. It decided in favour of the latter if what was being expressed was an honest opinion. So there was no libel.

This judgement has decided that unlawful actions by a public servant can harm individuals, and those individuals are due damages for such a tort. That is nothing to do with libel, but to do with a duty of confidentiality.

Libel requires that the assertion be false. This judgement applies whatever the truth status of the material.


Let me give you an example:

Celebrity X visits a doctor and tests positive for HIV.
The doctor shares this with the press.
The information is true but still causes harm.
Because the information was privileged, the celebrity could sue for damages to counter the harm done.

So the judge, in a civil case, has decided that Gonçalo Amaral's actions were unlawful?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 02, 2015, 01:23:02 PM
It does not overrule the SC decision. In law it could not.

The SC only considered whether straightforward possible defamation was counter balanced by a right to Freedom of Expression. It decided in favour of the latter if what was being expressed was an honest opinion. So there was no libel.

This judgement has decided that unlawful actions by a public servant can harm individuals, and those individuals are due damages for such a tort. That is nothing to do with libel, but to do with a duty of confidentiality.

Libel requires that the assertion be false. This judgement applies whatever the truth status of the material.


Let me give you an example:

Celebrity X visits a doctor and tests positive for HIV.
The doctor shares this with the press.
The information is true but still causes harm.
Because the information was privileged, the celebrity could sue for damages to counter the harm done.

You seem to be suggesting that no public servant (At least in PT) can write their memoirs?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 02, 2015, 01:31:49 PM
You seem to be suggesting that no public servant (At least in PT) can write their memoirs?

Not if they use privileged information about individuals.

Do you think a lawyer would be free to write their memoir quoting from notes with client privilege?

Do you think a Family Court judge could write about the confidential cases before her on retirement.

Do you think your GP should be able to write about your venereal disease in his memoir.


This is what Amaral has done and been sanctioned for.

He is free to talk about his friends, his general experiences and the method of ordering coffee mugs, but not to use information that was received in confidence.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 02, 2015, 01:47:13 PM

I am sure that those making donations to his legal fees are content to do so but it could be a long running thing for them if an appeal is allowed and he takes the process to exhaustion, which in theory could be several years down the line.

Sometimes it is better all round to accept defeat gracefully and allow everyone ~ including Mr Amaral ~ to get on with the important things in life.

Yes, I do believe the ruling of the Portuguese Court leaves his reputation in tatters; as a matter of interest what is the ratio of Portuguese doners to the cause in relation to British ones?

The donors on the 'go fund me' page are varied. UK, Portugal, Australia, USA. If he doesn't appeal he will give all his money to the McCanns. If he appeals he may not. Makes sense to try it then imo.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 02, 2015, 01:50:40 PM
So the judge, in a civil case, has decided that Gonçalo Amaral's actions were unlawful?

Have you come to a different conclusion? If so, on what basis?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: DCI on May 02, 2015, 02:24:41 PM
(http://i19.servimg.com/u/f19/14/67/69/80/monste10.jpg)


Monster who made a mint out of Madeliene

Snippet from paper.

Adoring women flock around him, chanting his name, throwing red roses and blowing him kisses.
Smiling and waving, their idol laps up the attention, posing for photos, signing autographs and even giving a lucky few a peck on the cheek.
For all the world you may have thought the man at the centre of of the fuss and flashing a diamond earring stud, was a ageing pop star greeting his fans at the stage door.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 02, 2015, 02:51:26 PM
The donors on the 'go fund me' page are varied. UK, Portugal, Australia, USA. If he doesn't appeal he will give all his money to the McCanns. If he appeals he may not. Makes sense to try it then imo.

Doesn't make a great deal of sense to me.  Whatever money you think will go to Madeleine's Fund has already been denied to him for some years, a long running appeal will only exacerbate that situation.

I have seen it said elsewhere on the forum that his appeal could result in a greater award being made to Madeleine's Fund than the one he presently faces, it will certainly lead to greater legal expenses being accrued, but as long as there are those willing and able to contribute to those ... not really his problem.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 02, 2015, 03:08:06 PM
(http://i19.servimg.com/u/f19/14/67/69/80/monste10.jpg)


Monster who made a mint out of Madeliene

Snippet from paper.

Adoring women flock around him, chanting his name, throwing red roses and blowing him kisses.
Smiling and waving, their idol laps up the attention, posing for photos, signing autographs and even giving a lucky few a peck on the cheek.
For all the world you may have thought the man at the centre of of the fuss and flashing a diamond earring stud, was a ageing pop star greeting his fans at the stage door.
  Hilarious - and every word true! 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 02, 2015, 03:16:32 PM
That is very useful.

So no appeal on Proven Facts.

Amaral was a retired police officer and he did use privileged information.

So the judgement is only open to appeal on grounds of interpretation of the law.

I think the irony is if he had made the book up, as some have claimed, rather than adhering to the information in the files then he would be home and dry now.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 02, 2015, 03:36:03 PM
I think the irony is if he had made the book up, as some have claimed, rather than adhering to the information in the files then he would be home and dry now.

Well had he made clear it was complete fiction, he would not have sold more than a handful of copies.  So would not have done any damage to the McCanns.  I fear your idol is not author material.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 02, 2015, 03:52:13 PM
I think the irony is if he had made the book up, as some have claimed, rather than adhering to the information in the files then he would be home and dry now.

I just find it sad.

He had quite a few opportunities open to him.

He could have completed his career in the PJ (assuming he hadn't been invited to seek other career prospects elsewhere).

He could have written a different type of book, which could still have been a best-seller.

He could have drawn on his experience to write a column or appear as one of the usual ex-cop pundits on other cases.

Admittedly, such options wouldn't have had the lure of €380k+ earned in a mere two years, nor a soar to the giddy heights of the media limelight, but he could have enjoyed a certain media glow and a decent income for years to come.

And none of that required standing on the shoulders of a family floundering in the midst of a personal tragedy, let alone on those of a little missing child whose fate remains unknown.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 02, 2015, 04:37:46 PM
(http://i19.servimg.com/u/f19/14/67/69/80/monste10.jpg)


Monster who made a mint out of Madeliene

Snippet from paper.

Adoring women flock around him, chanting his name, throwing red roses and blowing him kisses.
Smiling and waving, their idol laps up the attention, posing for photos, signing autographs and even giving a lucky few a peck on the cheek.
For all the world you may have thought the man at the centre of of the fuss and flashing a diamond earring stud, was a ageing pop star greeting his fans at the stage door.

Where do they get this cr*p?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 02, 2015, 04:40:12 PM
I believe its what passes for 'responsible journalism'  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 02, 2015, 04:42:20 PM
Where do they get this cr*p?

But certain supporters of a certain age and certain gender do flock around him and the PJ. Remember the 'nesting for the PJ' threads on the 3As?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: DCI on May 02, 2015, 04:43:25 PM
Where do they get this cr*p?

From the paper.


Or read here http://www.mccannfiles.com/id232.html (http://www.mccannfiles.com/id232.html)


Monster who made a mint out of Maddie The Sun (paper edition, pages 36&37)

EIGHT YEARS ON, HOW 'SUPER SLEUTH' FAILED THE McCANNS

By ANTONELLA LAZZERI
Saturday, May 2, 2015

ADORING women flock around him, chanting his name, throwing red roses and blowing him kisses.

Smiling and waving, their idol laps up the attention, posing for photos, signing autographs and even giving a lucky few a peck on the cheek.

For all the world you may have thought the man at the centre of the fuss and flashing a diamond earring stud was an ageing pop star greeting his fans at the stage door.

In fact the setting was the entrance to Lisbon's Palace of Justice and the man was former Portuguese police chief Goncalo Amaral.

This is the man Madeleine McCann's parents hold responsible for virtually destroying every hope there was of finding their daughter in the first crucial hours and days after she went missing on May 3, 2007.

And he is a man who has continued to add to their torment in the years since by claiming over and over that their beloved daughter is dead.

He has raked in nearly £400,000 from spouting these claims in a book and TV documentary.

He even hired an agent and was at one time charging £75,000 for an interview.

Before long he was driving a flashy Jag and living in a plush villa.

Tomorrow marks the eighth anniversary of the disappearance of Madeleine, who was three years old.

The scenes of Amaral preening in front of besotted fans outside court were witnessed by parents Kate and Gerry more than two years after that terrible night.

'Kate driven to tears by missed opportunities'

It was December 11, 2009, and incredibly, it was the first time Kate had ever set eyes on him.

As the mum was to write later in her book Madeleine: "It was also the first time he had laid eyes on me.

"It is extraordinary that he could have said and written so many awful things about a person he had never met."

This week the couple finally won their libel battle against Amaral that had begun back on that December day more than five years ago. He was ordered to pay them £433,000 and his book, The Truth of the Lie, was banned.

Kate, 46, has mostly kept a dignified silence on the subject of Amaral, but in one interview she revealed how son Sean, now nine, had told her: "Mr Amaral said you hid Madeleine."

When Madeleine disappeared from a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz, Portugal, Amaral, now 56, was quickly drafted in as the super-sleuth who would crack the case.

At the time he was the co-ordinator of the Policia Judiciaria's Criminal Investigation Department in Portimao.

But during the investigation he only met Gerry once and seemingly had not thought it relevant to even meet, let alone talk to, the mother of the child he was tasked with finding.

This isn't surprising given Amaral's arrogance and self-importance. Having met him several times he is unlike any police chief I have ever known.

At court, in his heavy gold chain and with his bulging belly, he conducted himself like a celebrity.

He gave TV interviews at every opportunity and wined and dined his fans – who all seemed to be women of a certain age with a fondness for bright red lipstick and fur coats – over long lunches.

Back in October 2007 it was his comments made during a similar lunch that saw him taken off Madeleine's case.

Journalists overheard him loudly complaining that the McCanns were getting special treatment because they were from the UK, and criticising British police. He was removed after his comments were reported.

But it was surprising that Amaral was ever in charge in the first place.

Because at the time he was himself an "arguido" – an official suspect – in a case involving another mother of a missing child.

He was being investigated for falsifying documents in a case involving three of his officers accused of torturing the missing girl's mum and uncle to get their confessions.

Little Joana Cipriano, eight, had disappeared in September 2004 from her village seven miles from Praia da Luz. She has never been found. The officers were cleared, but in May 2009 Amaral was convicted of perjury and received an 18-month suspended sentence.

Years later, as Kate combed through police files, she was to be driven to tears of frustration and rage by all the missed opportunities. So many leads and sightings had simply not been followed up.

The reason? From an early stage in the investigation, as Amaral later admitted in his book, he decided Madeleine had died in an accident.

Then, he reckoned, her parents panicked, hid her body and made up the story about her abduction.

So while Kate and Gerry were clinging to the hope that a huge manhunt would soon bring their daughter back to them, Amaral's team were in fact searching for clues and evidence to implicate them.

Even the cop assigned to be the McCanns' family liaison officer was in fact looking for hints of guilt, it emerged during the libel case.

Conclusions based on bizarre 'evidence'

One night, he told the court, Kate had phoned him to beg for a hilltop in Praia da Luz to be searched, because she had had a dream that Madeleine was buried there.

From this, he reported back to Amaral, he believed that Kate was admitting Madeleine was dead – further proof of the couples "guilt".

It seems absurd that a top police chief would base his conclusions on bizarre "evidence" such as this. And yet, much to Kate and Gerry's complete despair, he did.

No wonder Kate wrote in her book: "What probably galls me the most about Amaral's interviews is the way he presents himself as a person who, perhaps above all others, really wants to find Madeleine and get to the bottom of her fate.

"I cannot begin to express how much this outrages me."

Amaral began his attacks on the McCanns soon after being taken off the case and in July 2008 published his book, a bestseller in Portugal.

Amaral is well thought of in Portugal and his utterings were clearly turning locals against the McCanns.

As Kate told me despairingly: "If people believe Madeleine is dead they will stop searching for her." Yet she never wanted to enter into a long libel battle against him.

It was Portuguese lawyer Isabel Duarte who told Kate and Gerry, 46, that they had no choice but to do it, declaring: "That man has accused you of burying your daughter!"

Meanwhile, Amaral's second wife Sofia Leal, 45 – with whom he has a daughter the same age as Madeleine – has said he has been "completely destroyed" by the case.

And recently Amaral himself, who is now retired, said: "It's hard to accept that I have to live this way just because I did my job."

For Kate and Gerry those words must cut deep.

Because they believe if Amaral HAD done his job their beloved Madeleine may now be with them.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: DCI on May 02, 2015, 04:44:49 PM
But certain supporters of a certain age and certain gender do flock around him and the PJ. Remember the 'nesting for the PJ' threads on the 3As?

Ah Yes! I remember it well  8**8:/:
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 02, 2015, 04:47:06 PM
Where do they get this cr*p?

It's the Sun isn't it? Do they print anything else? Whoops! They serialised Kate's book didn't they? Me bad.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lyall on May 02, 2015, 04:51:54 PM
Somewhat ironic final line there from Antonella Lazzeri there.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 02, 2015, 04:55:52 PM
Somewhat ironic final line there from Antonella Lazzeri there.

I must have walked through the wrong door; I thought this was the  "Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to highest Court!" Room.
Catch you rater  8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 02, 2015, 05:08:08 PM
It's the Sun isn't it? Do they print anything else? Whoops! They serialised Kate's book didn't they? Me bad.

Not just bad dear G possitivly EVIL... you forgot to credit the SUN''s owner Murdoch and his other meja interest "Sky news...lololol OH and let's not forget the News of the World Newspaper who took money from the public which was for 'charities' but on closing down, it went to the 'fund'  ...  Spookie eh?

Anyway...  monster? he is a monster? emotive words 'him making a mint' makes him a monster what words would describe those pathetic PR junkies Kate n Gerry? How much  money, trips, special appearances have they enjoyed since the 'abduction'( not through a unlocked door- but a window) lol

Well, Maddies sad departure has brought good fortune to MR Murdoch and the McCanns- who did NOTHING to protect their daughter but did everything to protect their 'image'  hahaha makes for a comedy- if a young child was not 'missing' .

Pots calling kettles black is a real irony

Bloo has already shared the verdict very well, however, Amaral was to pay damages NOT for libelling the parents, or for telling lies, but for having access to information he then used. Now, what we have here is someone being brought to court for a parking fine and being found innocent- but being jailed for knowing there was a parking bay... It makes no sence. At worst he breached confidentiality, nothing criminal in that!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 02, 2015, 05:15:27 PM
Not just bad dear G possitivly EVIL... you forgot to credit the SUN''s owner Murdoch and his other meja interest "Sky news...lololol OH and let's not forget the News of the World Newspaper who took money from the public which was for 'charities' but on closing down, it went to the 'fund'  ...  Spookie eh?

Anyway...  monster? he is a monster? emotive words 'him making a mint' makes him a monster what words would describe those pathetic PR junkies Kate n Gerry? How much  money, trips, special appearances have they enjoyed since the 'abduction'( not through a unlocked door- but a window) lol

Well, Maddies sad departure has brought good fortune to MR Murdoch and the McCanns- who did NOTHING to protect their daughter but did everything to protect their 'image'  hahaha makes for a comedy- if a young child was not 'missing' .

Pots calling kettles black is a real irony

Bloo has already shared the verdict very well, however, Amaral was to pay damages NOT for libelling the parents, or for telling lies, but for having access to information he then used. Now, what we have here is someone being brought to court for a parking fine and being found innocent- but being jailed for knowing there was a parking bay... It makes no sence. At worst he breached confidentiality, nothing criminal in that!

Not criminal but civilly liable for the damage done to the McCanns.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 02, 2015, 05:19:12 PM
But certain supporters of a certain age and certain gender do flock around him and the PJ. Remember the 'nesting for the PJ' threads on the 3As?

Even today, some avatars have a radiating halo surrounding his image. I guess he must hold a certain mystical appeal for some.

On a more mundane level, I've yet to encounter anyone who has been able to make his theory appear plausible in practice, without engaging in various detours requiring time warps and conspiracies of intergalactic proportions.

To each his own, but there's still a missing child.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: insider on May 02, 2015, 06:09:49 PM
I always thought reputable reporters are supposed to report and not make personal comments.   One could be forgiven for thinking that Antonella Lazzeri has her own agenda with self interest playing a big part in it.

(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/images/Sun_Antonella_Lazzeri_meet_Gerry_McCann.jpg)

Sun reporter Antonella Lazzeri with Gerry McCann at the London Triathlon on 27 July 2013.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 02, 2015, 06:14:48 PM
I always thought reputable reporters are supposed to report and not make personal comments.   One could be forgiven for thinking that Antonella Lazzeri has her own agenda with self interest playing a big part in it.

(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/images/Sun_Antonella_Lazzeri_meet_Gerry_McCann.jpg)
LOL, I looked at that and thought "blimey, Kate's put on a few pounds!".  Antonella writes for the Sun which is well-known for using emotive language in its articles, nothing new there.  There's nothing in her description of the adulation of Amaral, nor the details of his lifestyle and behaviour in the aftermath of his publishing success that isn't accurate though is there?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: insider on May 02, 2015, 06:24:53 PM
LOL, I looked at that and thought "blimey, Kate's put on a few pounds!".  Antonella writes for the Sun which is well-known for using emotive language in its articles, nothing new there.  There's nothing in her description of the adulation of Amaral, nor the details of his lifestyle and behaviour in the aftermath of his publishing success that isn't accurate though is there?

Her monster headline is in very bad taste but then as has already been said this is to be expected from a downmarket Murdoch rag.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2015, 06:32:23 PM
I always thought reputable reporters are supposed to report and not make personal comments.   One could be forgiven for thinking that Antonella Lazzeri has her own agenda with self interest playing a big part in it.

(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/images/Sun_Antonella_Lazzeri_meet_Gerry_McCann.jpg)

Sun reporter Antonella Lazzeri with Gerry McCann at the London Triathlon on 27 July 2013.

the article seems absolutely spot on...Amaral could of course sue in the very victim friendly UK libel court. Unfortunately the Sun could very easily defend the claim on the basis of truth
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 02, 2015, 06:37:06 PM
Her monster headline is in very bad taste but then as has already been said this is to be expected from a downmarket Murdoch rag.
monster: An inhumanly cruel or wicked person.  Personally I think it's quite accurate.  Amaral chose to profit from the disappearance of a little girl by writing a book in which he painted her innocent parents as liars and villains.  He has subsequently made a career out of vilifying those parents on TV and print for the best part of 8 years.  Not only that, he has insisted that Madeleine is definitely dead, despite there being no evidence whatsoever to support this.  Now consider (if you are able) that the McCanns are not liars, nor are they guilty of hiding their child's body in a hole and then driving the putrefying corpse around in a car 23 days later,  consider the possibility that Madeleine isn't actually dead at all but awaiting discovery and reuniting with her family,  then isn't "monster" a pretty accurate description of the person who has done what he has done to those two people?  Admittedly there are better words to describe him IMO, but I doubt they'd get through the forum censor. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 03, 2015, 05:49:26 PM
Rxcellent news. The http://www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA appeal ( please give generously ) is at this moment careering towards the £6000 mark. Well done the Sun who helped inform the GBP of the appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 03, 2015, 05:54:00 PM
Rxcellent news. The http://www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA appeal ( please give generously ) is at this moment careering towards the £6000 mark. Well done the Sun who helped inform the GBP of the appeal.

What do you think Amaral might owe his lawyers?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 03, 2015, 08:29:54 PM
Could someone please explain the relevance of Michael Caplan having Pinochet among his list of clients?

I don't know, but of course  he was an expert on extradition and related matters, which he used to full effect when helping Pinochet;

"If it's decided in Portugal they should be tried, they will want advice as to fighting extradition or returning voluntarily," says Julian Knowles. The other area of law Mr Caplan specialises in is "mutual assistance" - the process where one country seeks the assistance of another in a criminal investigation. "The McCanns will want to know if the Portuguese police can turn up at their house and search it. Or can they get the English police to search it."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6995499.stm
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 03, 2015, 09:26:01 PM
Just looked at the donation site for Amaral. The Sun seems to have annoyed people. Quite a few say they're donating because of the Sun article.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 03, 2015, 09:30:41 PM
Just looked at the donation site for Amaral. The Sun seems to have annoyed people. Quite a few say they're donating because of the Sun article.

Yes, the converted will donate, the rest will find him a figure of despair as he is portrayed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 03, 2015, 09:32:45 PM
Rather like with the McCanns, most of the population  won't give a toss.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 03, 2015, 09:37:44 PM
Rather like with the McCanns, most of the population  won't give a toss.

Agreed.

Most people are largely unworried about the McCanns or the actions of bullies and harassers.

But some people defend the bullish.

And some people defend the innocent.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 03, 2015, 09:41:02 PM
Just looked at the donation site for Amaral. The Sun seems to have annoyed people. Quite a few say they're donating because of the Sun article.

I hope they are prepared to be in it for the long haul, a dog isn't just for Christmas it's for life and the wheels of the Law appear to turn very slowly in Portugal, and while they are turning his assets remain tied up by the Courts.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 03, 2015, 09:46:10 PM
Agreed.

Most people are largely unworried about the McCanns or the actions of bullies and harassers.

But some people defend the bullish.

And some people defend the innocent.

Some look at the evidence and try to understand what happened. Some ignore the evidence or try to twist it to suit their own theories.

@Brietta

People seem to be promising monthly payments, so they would be in it for the long haul I expect.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 03, 2015, 09:51:09 PM
Some look at the evidence and try to understand what happened. Some ignore the evidence or try to twist it to suit their own theories.

@Brietta

People seem to be promising monthly payments, so they would be in it for the long haul I expect.

Some people a t like rational adults, stop being pretend policeman, a d brow up and get a life.

Others become sad bullying vigilantes spreading hate and anger, and bullying people who they have never met and with whom they have no human connection.

It is a choice.

Choose life...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 03, 2015, 10:02:43 PM
Some look at the evidence and try to understand what happened. Some ignore the evidence or try to twist it to suit their own theories.

@Brietta

People seem to be promising monthly payments, so they would be in it for the long haul I expect.

and some of us actually understand the evidence....it really is amazing how much amaral got wrong
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 03, 2015, 10:04:33 PM
Some look at the evidence and try to understand what happened. Some ignore the evidence or try to twist it to suit their own theories.

@Brietta

People seem to be promising monthly payments, so they would be in it for the long haul I expect.


Their dedication to the cause is laudable and I am sure the cause will be eternally grateful as no doubt will be the legal team reliant on the legal fees to pay their mortgages ... if the projection for the appeal process is eight years (not my figure ~ someone else's) I hope the monthly payments don't disappoint.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 03, 2015, 10:09:13 PM
and some of us actually understand the evidence....it really is amazing how much amaral got wrong

Well, he was going to bring the Smiths back to Portugal......6 years before Operation Grange revealed their testimony as important.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 03, 2015, 10:13:20 PM
I don't know, but of course  he was an expert on extradition and related matters, which he used to full effect when helping Pinochet;

"If it's decided in Portugal they should be tried, they will want advice as to fighting extradition or returning voluntarily," says Julian Knowles. The other area of law Mr Caplan specialises in is "mutual assistance" - the process where one country seeks the assistance of another in a criminal investigation. "The McCanns will want to know if the Portuguese police can turn up at their house and search it. Or can they get the English police to search it."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6995499.stm

The McCanns may well have been aware of the Cipriano case and having been lied to by the PJ....having been offered a deal if she confessed Kate really feared that the PJ were corrupt..and following amarals conviction she was correct
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on May 03, 2015, 10:31:40 PM
The McCanns may well have been aware of the Cipriano case and having been lied to by the PJ....having been offered a deal if she confessed Kate really feared that the PJ were corrupt..and following amarals conviction she was correct
According to information that I read on the internet in 2007/ 2008 Leandro Silva warned them about the goings on in The Cipriano case. 


I expect the Consulate would too.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 03, 2015, 10:33:52 PM
According to information that I read on the internet in 2007/ 2008 Leandro Silva warned them about the goings on in The Cipriano case. 


I expect the Consulate would too.

The Portuguese legal system depended on violence for convictions for years. It had only just started recovering.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on May 04, 2015, 06:17:26 AM
The Portuguese legal system depended on violence for convictions for years. It had only just started recovering.

and has nothing to do with the mccann case as neither were tortured, next
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 04, 2015, 07:22:42 AM
One can only appeal if one has grounds.

One can only appeal to the ECHR if it is a matter of Human Rights- it is not a Supreme Court, only a Tribunal interpreting the European Convention.

Legal Costs also build on each side. In Portugal I understand that lawyers fees are paid by each side and there are rarely costs awarded against one side alone.

I can see no easy grounds for appeal- appeals are not automatic and require permission.

I understand that the McCanns are indemnified for their legal costs a d Amaral is not.

I think it may be over bar the shouting.

Appeals are not automatic and require permission, true!

They also require a legal basis that something in the judgment appealed was awry.

Establishing such a basis may be what Amaral will find tricky ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 04, 2015, 07:27:15 AM
Could someone please explain the relevance of Michael Caplan having Pinochet among his list of clients?

You lawyer-types most often tend to represent shady characters.  That is because shady characters most often fall foul of the law (by definition).

But every once in a while, you will have occasion to represent reputable and upstanding citizens, such as the McCanns.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 04, 2015, 08:08:32 AM
and has nothing to do with the mccann case as neither were tortured, next

Torture does not need to happen. There just needs to be an atmosphere of coercion in the investigation process that allows the police to fit up innocent people.

General police behaviour in too many jurisdictions has been based on coerced confession of targeted individuals; this was the case generally in England until PACE limited the opportunities of the police to distort the system. It is not watertight as the case of Barry George and others demonstrate, but most of the tools of coercive policing have been removed. This is not the case in other jurisdictions such as the USA and many European countries and most third world countries that still use coercive investigation techniques.

If the McCanns had not been lawyered up and PR savvy, then I suspect that Kate McCann would have been forced to 'confess' to a minor crime to clear the case up- more important to the police than seeking justice.

The reported bargaining over two years on jail for a lesser crime than murder supports this. As the lawyer said 'if you were Portuguese you would be locked up by now.' Locked up coerced, bullied and demeaned, maybe even accidentally falling downstairs.

Amaral became very frustrated and saw his last chance to detain her because the following week be would have to give reasonable grounds to a court and be knew be did not have them. She was arguidoed and targeted with threats about never seeing her children and offered a way out by serving two years. She stood up to Amaral and the case collapsed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 04, 2015, 08:13:50 AM
Torture does not need to happen. There just needs to be an atmosphere of coercion in the investigation process that allows the police to fit up innocent people.

General police behaviour in too many jurisdictions has been based on coerced confession of targeted individuals; this was the case generally in England until PACE limited the opportunities of the police to distort the system. It is not watertight as the case of Barry George and others demonstrate, but most of the tools of coercive policing have been removed. This is not the case in other jurisdictions such as the USA and many European countries and most third world countries that still use coercive investigation techniques.

If the McCanns had not been lawyered up and PR savvy, then I suspect that Kate McCann would have been forced to 'confess' to a minor crime to clear the case up- more important to the police than seeking justice.

The reported bargaining over two years on jail for a lesser crime than murder supports this. As the lawyer said 'if you were Portuguese you would be locked up by now.' Locked up coerced, bullied and demeaned, maybe even accidentally falling downstairs.

Amaral became very frustrated and saw his last chance to detain her because the following week be would have to give reasonable grounds to a court and be knew be did not have them. She was arguidoed and targeted with threats about never seeing her children and offered a way out by serving two years. She stood up to Amaral and the case collapsed.

Some cites or is it just more BS.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 04, 2015, 08:16:04 AM
No. That is your bias.

"While he maintains a broad-based practice..."

He also represented Associated Newspapers in the Leveson Inquiry. I doubt that the Daily Mail hired him for his extradition expertise...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 04, 2015, 08:25:40 AM
Some cites or is it just more BS.

Any scientific study of police behaviour in the Criminology section.

Many police memoirs which give the game away about what the situation was like before PACE.

Stephan Kiszco case.

Barry George Case

West Midland Serious Crime Squad.

Birmingham Six and other Irish accused.

The Black and Tans

Etc!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 04, 2015, 10:50:08 AM
Torture does not need to happen. There just needs to be an atmosphere of coercion in the investigation process that allows the police to fit up innocent people.

General police behaviour in too many jurisdictions has been based on coerced confession of targeted individuals; this was the case generally in England until PACE limited the opportunities of the police to distort the system. It is not watertight as the case of Barry George and others demonstrate, but most of the tools of coercive policing have been removed. This is not the case in other jurisdictions such as the USA and many European countries and most third world countries that still use coercive investigation techniques.

If the McCanns had not been lawyered up and PR savvy, then I suspect that Kate McCann would have been forced to 'confess' to a minor crime to clear the case up- more important to the police than seeking justice.

The reported bargaining over two years on jail for a lesser crime than murder supports this. As the lawyer said 'if you were Portuguese you would be locked up by now.' Locked up coerced, bullied and demeaned, maybe even accidentally falling downstairs.

Amaral became very frustrated and saw his last chance to detain her because the following week be would have to give reasonable grounds to a court and be knew be did not have them. She was arguidoed and targeted with threats about never seeing her children and offered a way out by serving two years. She stood up to Amaral and the case collapsed.

So just your opinion then? therefore no more valid than any other opinion.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 04, 2015, 10:51:45 AM
Any scientific study of police behaviour in the Criminology section.

Many police memoirs which give the game away about what the situation was like before PACE.

Stephan Kiszco case.

Barry George Case

West Midland Serious Crime Squad.

Birmingham Six and other Irish accused.

The Black and Tans

Etc!
Does this actually address what was being asked in the context of your post. You being big on context and all.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 04, 2015, 10:54:35 AM
Does this actually address what was being asked in the context of your post. You being big on context and all.

Yes.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 04, 2015, 11:06:13 AM
Has amaral forgot he told us he was going to sue the McCanns
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 04, 2015, 11:27:22 AM
Any scientific study of police behaviour in the Criminology section.

Many police memoirs which give the game away about what the situation was like before PACE.

Stephan Kiszco case.

Barry George Case

West Midland Serious Crime Squad.

Birmingham Six and other Irish accused.

The Black and Tans

Etc!

Pace became law in 1984. Barry George was convicted in 2001.

Next.....!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 04, 2015, 11:49:16 AM
Pace became law in 1984. Barry George was convicted in 2001.

Next.....!

I know that. PACE has limited the abuse but it is not perfect.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 04, 2015, 12:15:41 PM
I know that. PACE has limited the abuse but it is not perfect.

It was also not law as you suggested when Barry George was arrested.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 04, 2015, 12:31:31 PM
It was also not law as you suggested when Barry George was arrested.

PACE was law when Barry George was charged with Jill Dane's murder.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 04, 2015, 12:34:29 PM
PACE was law when Barry George was charged with Jill Dane's murder.

You suggested it wasn't.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 04, 2015, 12:41:37 PM
You suggested it wasn't.

I did not.

The PACE reference is to the subject 'police memoirs'. You have read it to cover the other dreadful errors of British policing before the sea change of the past thirty years.

It is more than just PACE. English police now widely use cognitive interviewing, aimed not at a confession, but at fact finding to use as evidence.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 04, 2015, 12:51:18 PM
I did not.

The PACE reference is to the subject 'police memoirs'. You have read it to cover the other dreadful errors of British policing before the sea change of the past thirty years.

It is more than just PACE. English police now widely use cognitive interviewing, aimed not at a confession, but at fact finding to use as evidence.

Oh I think you did

Quote :

' Many police memoirs which give the game away about what the situation was like before PACE.

Stephan Kiszco case.

Barry George Case

West Midland Serious Crime Squad.

Birmingham Six and other Irish accused.

The Black and Tans

Etc!'
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 04, 2015, 01:02:31 PM
So just your opinion then? therefore no more valid than any other opinion.

There is informed opinion and there is uninformed opinion, I prefer the former.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 04, 2015, 01:05:24 PM
1/ Any scientific study of police behaviour in the Criminology section.

2/ Many police memoirs which give the game away about what the situation was like before PACE.

3/ Stephan Kiszco case.

4 / Barry George Case

4/ West Midland Serious Crime Squad.

6/ Birmingham Six and other Irish accused.

7/ The Black and Tans

8/ Etc!'

Statements numbered to help the pedants and hard of comprehension.

The PACE reference was to that item- police memoirs alone.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 04, 2015, 10:11:49 PM
There is informed opinion and there is uninformed opinion, I prefer the former.

But choice to post the latter. Odd that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on May 04, 2015, 10:47:41 PM
But choice to post the latter. Odd that.
Talking about yourself, Faith?


Brietta is always very well informed.  She uses fact
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: xtina on May 05, 2015, 12:20:29 PM
seems more popular than the mccs fund.....some interesting comments too


http://portugalresident.com/brits-already-forking-out-en-masse-for-maddie-cop-libel-appeal


Brits already forking out en-masse for Maddie cop libel appeal









After what many consider the bombshell of a judicial decision last week, British supporters of the former Portuguese policeman ordered to pay the parents of Madeleine McCann €500,000 euros in damages are rallying to a “gofundme” online appeal for his legal defence.
 
Already widely reported is the fact that Gonçalo Amaral “will appeal to the last judicial instance” against the vast sum of damages awarded against him in the civil action for defamation taken out by Kate and Gerry McCann. But what few in Portugal may be aware of is that an online fund set up by a 22-year-old woman in Birmingham is already seeing money pouring in in Amaral’s defence.
 
At time of writing on Sunday morning, 315 people had donated over £5,000 to the Legal Defence for Gonçalo Amaral set up by Leanne Baulch, with all sorts leaving commentaries, including at least one introducing himself as a retired police officer.
 
Jill Parkin added her £10 donation to the fund, saying: “Please do not give up in your quest for justice and the truth. I believe you are a honourable man who has been badly wronged. I honestly do not know what happened in this case but someone is lying and someone out there does know”
 
Many donors’ comments allude to an article in today’s Sunday Sun that suggests Amaral is being funded by “British trolls”.
 
As Emma Mitchell, giving £100 commented: “Shame on you The Sun! ... Keep fighting GA , Madeleine deserves justice and so do you”.
 
Kirstene Glynn added her contribution, saying: “From yet another "nasty Internet troll" keep on fighting GA we're behind u all the way”.
 
While others stumping up for the appeal that hopes to raise £25,000 pointed out: “There is a battle going on in social media land to force this through to the mainstream” which, they claim, “for some reason” only publishes one side of this seemingly endless and long-running story.
 
Thus for now, Amaral is being buoyed by two online appeals both here and in UK as British media persist with 8th anniversary “Madeleine disappearance” stories, including “exposés” on Amaral’s so-called “fall from grace” and new “revelations about a string of burglaries on the Praia da Luz resort from which Madeleine went missing.
 
According to the Express on Sunday, a home Amaral had hoped to retire to in a “millionaires development” near Olhão has “been seized to to cover the McCann libel payout” and is now boarded up, the property of the courts.
 
The paper quotes an alleged friend, saying that everything Amaral has worked for “all his life, could be lost”.
 
As we wrote this article, another three people bolstered the gofundme appeal.
 
By the end of the day donations had leapt almost £500.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 05, 2015, 01:18:18 PM
seems more popular than the mccs fund.....some interesting comments too


http://portugalresident.com/brits-already-forking-out-en-masse-for-maddie-cop-libel-appeal


Brits already forking out en-masse for Maddie cop libel appeal









After what many consider the bombshell of a judicial decision last week, British supporters of the former Portuguese policeman ordered to pay the parents of Madeleine McCann €500,000 euros in damages are rallying to a “gofundme” online appeal for his legal defence.
 
Already widely reported is the fact that Gonçalo Amaral “will appeal to the last judicial instance” against the vast sum of damages awarded against him in the civil action for defamation taken out by Kate and Gerry McCann. But what few in Portugal may be aware of is that an online fund set up by a 22-year-old woman in Birmingham is already seeing money pouring in in Amaral’s defence.
 
At time of writing on Sunday morning, 315 people had donated over £5,000 to the Legal Defence for Gonçalo Amaral set up by Leanne Baulch, with all sorts leaving commentaries, including at least one introducing himself as a retired police officer.
 
Jill Parkin added her £10 donation to the fund, saying: “Please do not give up in your quest for justice and the truth. I believe you are a honourable man who has been badly wronged. I honestly do not know what happened in this case but someone is lying and someone out there does know”
 
Many donors’ comments allude to an article in today’s Sunday Sun that suggests Amaral is being funded by “British trolls”.
 
As Emma Mitchell, giving £100 commented: “Shame on you The Sun! ... Keep fighting GA , Madeleine deserves justice and so do you”.
 
Kirstene Glynn added her contribution, saying: “From yet another "nasty Internet troll" keep on fighting GA we're behind u all the way”.
 
While others stumping up for the appeal that hopes to raise £25,000 pointed out: “There is a battle going on in social media land to force this through to the mainstream” which, they claim, “for some reason” only publishes one side of this seemingly endless and long-running story.
 
Thus for now, Amaral is being buoyed by two online appeals both here and in UK as British media persist with 8th anniversary “Madeleine disappearance” stories, including “exposés” on Amaral’s so-called “fall from grace” and new “revelations about a string of burglaries on the Praia da Luz resort from which Madeleine went missing.
 
According to the Express on Sunday, a home Amaral had hoped to retire to in a “millionaires development” near Olhão has “been seized to to cover the McCann libel payout” and is now boarded up, the property of the courts.
 
The paper quotes an alleged friend, saying that everything Amaral has worked for “all his life, could be lost”.
 
As we wrote this article, another three people bolstered the gofundme appeal.
 
By the end of the day donations had leapt almost £500.

I found this contribution from a donator on the gofindme site especially poignant Xtina

"I have decided to contrubute again to make this reach £8,000 this morning. My Nan's first husband died a young British soldier in the Battle of Dunkirk in WW2, leaving behind a wife & 3 children. He didn't make the ultimate sacrifice amidst abject fear & suffering for the people of the UK to be insulted, humiliated, called "sicko/online trolls", for standing up for freedom of speech, honesty, integrity & justice. Maurice, your life & death left a legacy that should never be forgotten. It's up the the public to be the voice of you & your fallen comrades now. We will be with Goncalo Amaral in this quest. Shame on the UK gutter press for labelling the people that have made over 460 donations to this page in such a derogatory way with such tacky, infantile venom. I'm fortunate, I can donate this money. Brenda Leyland cannot after being found dead, alone in a hotel room, days after being branded a "troll" like we all are now. She was publicly humiliated by UK MSM who doorstepped her, papped her, followed her & drove her to what I can only imagine must have been the darkest place imaginable & for what?? The police have officially stated there is no case to answer. Brenda was not a troll, official. Deepest love and light to all the justice & freedom seekers who are not here, we are your voice now xx.'
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 05, 2015, 01:31:47 PM
Erm... I think I'll stick with Brendan de Beer, if that's ok. Poor chap has been criticised from both sides of the fence, but - as far as I can tell - he's been neutral in his reporting.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 05, 2015, 04:41:10 PM
Another donation from someone who has actuall met Amaral.

" I have met Goncalo through work when he was in Portimao a year before Madeline went missing. He treated my colleague and I to a meal the first night we arrived there and was always asking if his officers were assisting us properly in our enquiries which they were. I found the Police in Portimao extremely professional and thorough and IT was as a result of Goncalo and his officers that our enquiries were 100% successful. Good luck if you read this Goncalo as I once said to you that "we are the biggest gang in the World"
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on May 05, 2015, 04:42:58 PM
Another donation from someone who has actuall met Amaral.

" I have met Goncalo through work when he was in Portimao a year before Madeline went missing. He treated my colleague and I to a meal the first night we arrived there and was always asking if his officers were assisting us properly in our enquiries which they were. I found the Police in Portimao extremely professional and thorough and IT was as a result of Goncalo and his officers that our enquiries were 100% successful. Good luck if you read this Goncalo as I once said to you that "we are the biggest gang in the World"

Gang?  Goodness me.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on May 05, 2015, 04:54:09 PM
Another donation from someone who has actuall met Amaral.

" I have met Goncalo through work when he was in Portimao a year before Madeline went missing. He treated my colleague and I to a meal the first night we arrived there and was always asking if his officers were assisting us properly in our enquiries which they were. I found the Police in Portimao extremely professional and thorough and IT was as a result of Goncalo and his officers that our enquiries were 100% successful. Good luck if you read this Goncalo as I once said to you that "we are the biggest gang in the World"

Another PT cop in "the biggest gang in the World"?   %&5%£ £4%4%
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: DCI on May 05, 2015, 05:06:11 PM
Gang?  Goodness me.

Yes, shame they can't donate without, the nasty remarks, and cloning of people. Makes it look like just another sceptic blog.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: xtina on May 05, 2015, 05:11:07 PM
I found this contribution from a donator on the gofindme site especially poignant Xtina

"I have decided to contrubute again to make this reach £8,000 this morning. My Nan's first husband died a young British soldier in the Battle of Dunkirk in WW2, leaving behind a wife & 3 children. He didn't make the ultimate sacrifice amidst abject fear & suffering for the people of the UK to be insulted, humiliated, called "sicko/online trolls", for standing up for freedom of speech, honesty, integrity & justice. Maurice, your life & death left a legacy that should never be forgotten. It's up the the public to be the voice of you & your fallen comrades now. We will be with Goncalo Amaral in this quest. Shame on the UK gutter press for labelling the people that have made over 460 donations to this page in such a derogatory way with such tacky, infantile venom. I'm fortunate, I can donate this money. Brenda Leyland cannot after being found dead, alone in a hotel room, days after being branded a "troll" like we all are now. She was publicly humiliated by UK MSM who doorstepped her, papped her, followed her & drove her to what I can only imagine must have been the darkest place imaginable & for what?? The police have officially stated there is no case to answer. Brenda was not a troll, official. Deepest love and light to all the justice & freedom seekers who are not here, we are your voice now xx.'


Oh ...how so very very true

a voice for maddie as well ....who was so.... so very badly let down ...by the ones who should have been protecting her ..
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 05, 2015, 05:13:02 PM
Yes, shame they can't donate without, the nasty remarks, and cloning of people. Makes it look like just another sceptic blog.

How's Kate's JustGiving page doing ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 05, 2015, 05:21:24 PM
Another PT cop in "the biggest gang in the World"?   %&5%£ £4%4%

No, not Portuguese. sounds British to me.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 05, 2015, 05:31:52 PM
Another donation from someone who has actuall met Amaral.

" I have met Goncalo through work when he was in Portimao a year before Madeline went missing. He treated my colleague and I to a meal the first night we arrived there and was always asking if his officers were assisting us properly in our enquiries which they were. I found the Police in Portimao extremely professional and thorough and IT was as a result of Goncalo and his officers that our enquiries were 100% successful. Good luck if you read this Goncalo as I once said to you that "we are the biggest gang in the World"

most if not all those contributing have believed amarals lies re the dog alerts and the DNA...if they understood the evidence I'm sure they would not be contributing
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 05, 2015, 05:32:54 PM
most if not all those contributing have believed amarals lies re the dog alerts and the DNA...if they understood the evidence I'm sure they would not be contributing

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 05, 2015, 05:36:55 PM
@)(++(*

are you suggesting they do not believe amaral
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 05, 2015, 06:00:38 PM
most if not all those contributing have believed amarals lies re the dog alerts and the DNA...if they understood the evidence I'm sure they would not be contributing

I would say it's more a case of disbelief myself. Disbelief of what they are being told, particularly by the UK media.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 05, 2015, 06:02:33 PM
most if not all those contributing have believed amarals lies re the dog alerts and the DNA...if they understood the evidence I'm sure they would not be contributing
An opinion that cannot be put to the test and I doubt if the cash register cares.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 05, 2015, 10:38:08 PM
I'm a bit puzzled why a Portuguese man, who has been judged by a Portuguese Court to have dishonoured his duty of confidentiality as a former law officer and who has denied the victims of crime the presumption of innocence, is considered to be a victim, who needs financial support to appeal against his own country's courts.

I really do not know what type of person takes time out to denigrate with relish the mother of a missing child who hopes to participate in an event to raise money to help missing people and their relatives.

Everybody to their own I suppose.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 05, 2015, 10:41:41 PM
I'm a bit puzzled why a Portuguese man, who has been judged by a Portuguese Court to have dishonoured his duty of confidentiality as a former law officer and who has denied the victims of crime the presumption of innocence, is considered to be a victim, who needs financial support to appeal against his own country's courts.

I really do not know what type of person takes time out to denigrate with relish the mother of a missing child who hopes to participate in an event to raise money to help missing people and their relatives.

Everybody to their own I suppose.
The fact is that every penny these trolls spend on a) supporting Amaral and b) writing hateful comments on Kate's fundraising page will end up benefiting either the Madeleine Fund or the Missing People charity, they're just too dumb to realise it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 05, 2015, 11:13:27 PM
The fact is that every penny these trolls spend on a) supporting Amaral and b) writing hateful comments on Kate's fundraising page will end up benefiting either the Madeleine Fund or the Missing People charity, they're just too dumb to realise it.

That's if it even gets as far as being able to be considered his unearned income ... I think it has to reach his coffers first and it remains to be seen if that will happen.  Interesting though.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on May 06, 2015, 04:52:15 AM
I'm a bit puzzled why a Portuguese man, who has been judged by a Portuguese Court to have dishonoured his duty of confidentiality as a former law officer and who has denied the victims of crime the presumption of innocence, is considered to be a victim, who needs financial support to appeal against his own country's courts.

I really do not know what type of person takes time out to denigrate with relish the mother of a missing child who hopes to participate in an event to raise money to help missing people and their relatives.

Everybody to their own I suppose.
Re "financial support", the situation is so unbalanced. Is it fair that one side appears to have top UK and PT lawyers paid for by one or more rich funders, and the other side has absolutely no such funding?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 06, 2015, 07:12:08 AM
Re "financial support", the situation is so unbalanced. Is it fair that one side appears to have top UK and PT lawyers paid for by one or more rich funders, and the other side has absolutely no such funding?

As it happens Pegasus I agree with you on this.  Which is one of the reasons why I have made contributions to both the original defence fund and to this one, and would urge all who care about justice to do the same.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2015, 07:24:40 AM
As it happens Pegasus I agree with you on this.  Which is one of the reasons why I have made contributions to both the original defence fund and to this one, and would urge all who care about justice to do the same.
I don't think there is any justice involved in the support of a man who accuses two parents of criminal activity when the evidence does not support him
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 06, 2015, 08:36:51 AM
It doesn't matter what we think, though, does it? The fact is that people are supporting Amaral for a variety of reasons as is their right. The post quoted seems to sum up how people feel;

Truth and justice - an excellent mantra to live by. Everything I have read and seen regarding Dr Goncalo Amaral show him to be an honourable man. I can't say the same for the McCanns. British MSM is below contempt and always has been. Thousands of people have donated millions of pounds in the misheld belief that it was ALL going to be used to help to find a missing little girl (or be donated to other worthy children's charities) and NOT to personally attack those individuals who questioned the McCanns' version of events. It was not intended to be a prosecution/protection fund. And, the questioning is completely valid - there is ample evidence (even in the public arena) to doubt 'the official line' that we are being fed from some quarters. I am donating in the full knowledge that this is going towards a legal defence - I'm more than happy to do so. Good luck Snr. Amaral - you have the respect and gratitude of a great deal of people in the UK for standing tall with dignity.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 06, 2015, 08:41:53 AM
It doesn't matter what we think, though, does it? The fact is that people are supporting Amaral for a variety of reasons as is their right. The post quoted seems to sum up how people feel;

Truth and justice - an excellent mantra to live by. Everything I have read and seen regarding Dr Goncalo Amaral show him to be an honourable man. I can't say the same for the McCanns. British MSM is below contempt and always has been. Thousands of people have donated millions of pounds in the misheld belief that it was ALL going to be used to help to find a missing little girl (or be donated to other worthy children's charities) and NOT to personally attack those individuals who questioned the McCanns' version of events. It was not intended to be a prosecution/protection fund. And, the questioning is completely valid - there is ample evidence (even in the public arena) to doubt 'the official line' that we are being fed from some quarters. I am donating in the full knowledge that this is going towards a legal defence - I'm more than happy to do so. Good luck Snr. Amaral - you have the respect and gratitude of a great deal of people in the UK for standing tall with dignity.
I'd like to see some evidence for the claim that thousands of people who donated to the Madeleine Fund believed that ALL their funds were going to be used to search for the missing child.  People usually make donations in such cases unconditionally, as a show of support and sympathy, hence why money continued to be sentinto the April Jones Fund long after it was apparent she was never coming back.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on May 06, 2015, 09:27:03 AM
It doesn't matter what we think, though, does it? The fact is that people are supporting Amaral for a variety of reasons as is their right. The post quoted seems to sum up how people feel;

Truth and justice - an excellent mantra to live by. Everything I have read and seen regarding Dr Goncalo Amaral show him to be an honourable man. I can't say the same for the McCanns. British MSM is below contempt and always has been. Thousands of people have donated millions of pounds in the misheld belief that it was ALL going to be used to help to find a missing little girl (or be donated to other worthy children's charities) and NOT to personally attack those individuals who questioned the McCanns' version of events. It was not intended to be a prosecution/protection fund. And, the questioning is completely valid - there is ample evidence (even in the public arena) to doubt 'the official line' that we are being fed from some quarters. I am donating in the full knowledge that this is going towards a legal defence - I'm more than happy to do so. Good luck Snr. Amaral - you have the respect and gratitude of a great deal of people in the UK for standing tall with dignity.

How anyone can describe a corrupt policeman with a criminal record to prove it as an ''honourable man'' - is totally beyond my comprehension.   Bent cops are the lowest of the low IMO.

I contributed to the fund - and don't care a fig what they did with the money. 

IMO if Gerry McCann had so much as a parking ticket - they would be tearing him to ribbons and claiming this was irrefutable proof that he was an evil criminal.      I can't begin to imagine what they would be saying if he was also a tax evader, an adulterer, had been reported to the police by Kate for drink driving, had been taken to court by his own brother for fraud - and had a criminal record for abusing his position.

One thing is for sure the word 'honourable' would not be included anywhere at any time.
 
Oh well - 'There's nowt so queer as folk' - as they say.




Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 06, 2015, 10:07:09 AM
Re "financial support", the situation is so unbalanced. Is it fair that one side appears to have top UK and PT lawyers paid for by one or more rich funders, and the other side has absolutely no such funding?

Is the law ever a level playing field? 

Were I libelled I would just have to grin and bear it as I would be unable to afford to go to court.  If Victoria Beckham suffered exactly the same libel and was as outraged as I ... she could afford the best legal representation possible to contest the libel in court. (Sigh ... that is not the only difference between Victoria and myself.)

It is my opinion that Goncalo Amaral's situation is entirely of his own making and his illegal actions as outlined by a Portuguese Court the fault of no-one but himself.

I believe it was his arrogance in thinking the McCanns would not sue which has led to this impasse, and his vendetta against Leonor Cipriano's lawyer which cost him dearly should have taught him some caution.

In any case, he seems to have plenty of donations to his fund to enable him to contest the judgement of the Portuguese Court, which when considered, illustrates the actions of a corrupt ex public official who took pains to deny the victims of a horrendous crime their presumption of innocence.

I think the Portuguese people have very probably had their fill of such as scandal after scandal erupts involving the corruption of those in public office.
This is merely another such scandal ... and it is laudable that individuals may wish to dig into their pockets to defend it ... however it should be remembered Goncalo Amaral had his day in a lawfully constituted court, unlike the McCanns who are tried and condemned every day of their lives in kangaroo courts set up in many instances by the vilest of people. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 06, 2015, 10:26:32 AM
Re "financial support", the situation is so unbalanced. Is it fair that one side appears to have top UK and PT lawyers paid for by one or more rich funders, and the other side has absolutely no such funding?
Everyone is entitled to justice. There appear to be those who believe justice is only for their mates and those of similar viewpoints to themselves. That is scary when logical extension is applied.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 06, 2015, 10:43:39 AM
Everyone is entitled to justice. There appear to be those who believe justice is only for their mates and those of similar viewpoints to themselves. That is scary when logical extension is applied.

What exactly do you think Judge Maria Emilia de Melo e Castro was dispensing in her Court?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 06, 2015, 11:31:01 AM
Everyone is entitled to justice. There appear to be those who believe justice is only for their mates and those of similar viewpoints to themselves. That is scary when logical extension is applied.

The Prosecutors very clearly stated that the McCanns are not guilty of anything culpable in respect of Madeleine's disappearance.

Amaral, in the last chapter of his book, accuses the McCanns of responsibility for Madeleine's death, covering up the 'fact' of her death and simulating 'abduction'

That is why the admirable judge Maria Emilia de Melo e Castro passed down the judgment she did.



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 06, 2015, 11:50:28 AM
What exactly do you think Judge Maria Emilia de Melo e Castro was dispensing in her Court?


She dispensed a verdict which is open to challenge in a higher court.
Whether or not it results in a different result remains to be seen.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 06, 2015, 12:07:32 PM
What exactly do you think Judge Maria Emilia de Melo e Castro was dispensing in her Court?

I didn't mention specifics in my post but now you bring it up:
The judge dispensed justice on a point of law as she saw it giving the defendants the right of appeal to a higher court. According to justice the defendants are allowed their day in court if the higher court deems there are grounds for appeal. One defendant has limited resources and folk are raising money to assist him have his day in court. What happens beyond that is yet to be revealed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 06, 2015, 12:18:25 PM

She dispensed a verdict which is open to challenge in a higher court.
Whether or not it results in a different result remains to be seen.

It remains to be seen if the appeal is allowed as the judge was quite clear on the breaches of the law as applicable to a former police officer, which dictated her ruling.

If Goncalo Amaral's defence team are sanguine about that being overruled by another court and the appeal is allowed, contributors to the fund will have to continue to dig long and deep.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 06, 2015, 12:25:33 PM
It remains to be seen if the appeal is allowed as the judge was quite clear on the breaches of the law as applicable to a former police officer, which dictated her ruling.

If Goncalo Amaral's defence team are sanguine about that being overruled by another court and the appeal is allowed, contributors to the fund will have to continue to dig long and deep.

If they don't care why should you worry about it or even comment on it ?
I suppose you were up in arms that the Kray's defence was funded from legal aid taxation?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 06, 2015, 12:27:16 PM
It remains to be seen if the appeal is allowed as the judge was quite clear on the breaches of the law as applicable to a former police officer, which dictated her ruling.

If Goncalo Amaral's defence team are sanguine about that being overruled by another court and the appeal is allowed, contributors to the fund will have to continue to dig long and deep.

That will be their choice. Do you have a problem with that?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 06, 2015, 12:40:38 PM
I didn't mention specifics in my post but now you bring it up:
The judge dispensed justice on a point of law as she saw it giving the defendants the right of appeal to a higher court. According to justice the defendants are allowed their day in court if the higher court deems there are grounds for appeal. One defendant has limited resources and folk are raising money to assist him have his day in court. What happens beyond that is yet to be revealed.

LOL ... the amount awarded to those he had wronged by abusing his position and the law of the land ... does not reflect the amount made from the sale of his book and his media career exploiting his failures in the case of a missing child.
What is left of his pension alone after his tax debt has been deducted as JP has said should afford him a very comfortable lifestyle if not the one to which he obviously aspires.

His debts of the past (totally incompatible with his role as an inspector in the PJ) and his future indebtedness are attributable solely to him ... not the McCanns ... not his creditors.

Human nature is a wonderful thing I must admit ... those who have pulled out all the stops to halt the investigation into the disappearance of an innocent little girl, at the moment using the expense as their banner ... are content to to pull out the stops to contribute to the appeal of a person who has exploited her case for personal financial  gain.

Sounds reasonable.

Now, should the present investigation manage to come up with a living, breathing Madeleine McCann ... would the same people contribute to her legal costs should she choose to sue Goncalo Amaral for consistently obstructing the search for her by convincing people she was dead?
Or would they continue to contribute to his defence fund?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 06, 2015, 12:41:19 PM
That will be their choice. Do you have a problem with that?

Absolutely none whatsoever.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 06, 2015, 12:45:41 PM
If they don't care why should you worry about it or even comment on it ?
I suppose you were up in arms that the Kray's defence was funded from legal aid taxation?

Not my problem ... although I must admit to almost hysterical amusement as I read the comments accompanying the begging bowl set up to assist Mr Amaral.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 06, 2015, 12:51:24 PM
Not my problem ... although I must admit to almost hysterical amusement as I read the comments accompanying the begging bowl set up to assist Mr Amaral.

Doing well though, isn't it? up to 9 grand so far, so people are clearly happy to contribute.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 06, 2015, 01:00:39 PM
I don't have a problem with Amaral pursuing the appeal process. That's his right. I don't have a problem with people contributing to his legal fund, either. Assuming that they are compos mentis, what they do with their spare cash is their own business.

What I do find odd is the Supreme Court ruling over the injunction. I wonder how much time they actually spent on analysing the facts on which they based their judgement?



In the book, we do not verify any reference to any facts that are not in that dispatch.

Where the author differs from the Prosecutors who have written the dispatch, is in the logical, police-work-related and investigative interpretation that he does of those facts.

In that aspect, we stand before the exercise of freedom of opinion, which is a domain in which the author is an expert, as he was a criminal investigator for 26 years.


Reasonable sceptics on here (if they're honest), would surely find that finding to be questionable? No?


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 06, 2015, 01:03:10 PM
Doing well though, isn't it? up to 9 grand so far, so people are clearly happy to contribute.
And some folk are racked off that other folk have happily contributed nine grand so far and sneer at them for doing so.
"everybody's gotta have somebody to look down on someone to be better than anytime at all"
K.Kristofferson.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 06, 2015, 01:06:52 PM
I don't have a problem with Amaral pursuing the appeal process. That's his right. I don't have a problem with people contributing to his legal fund, either. Assuming that they are compos mentis, what they do with their spare cash is their own business.

What I do find odd is the Supreme Court ruling over the injunction. I wonder how much time they actually spent on analysing the facts on which they based their judgement?



In the book, we do not verify any reference to any facts that are not in that dispatch.

Where the author differs from the Prosecutors who have written the dispatch, is in the logical, police-work-related and investigative interpretation that he does of those facts.

In that aspect, we stand before the exercise of freedom of opinion, which is a domain in which the author is an expert, as he was a criminal investigator for 26 years.


Reasonable sceptics on here (if they're honest), would surely find that finding to be questionable? No?


I don't pretend to understand Portuguese law or how it works so do't spend any time worrying about it 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 06, 2015, 01:07:30 PM
And some folk are racked off that other folk have happily contributed nine grand so far and sneer at them for doing so.
"everybody's gotta have somebody to look down on someone to be better than anytime at all"
K.Kristofferson.

The same could be said of the "perfect parent" brigade. ;)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 06, 2015, 01:12:18 PM

I don't pretend to understand Portuguese law or how it works so do't spend any time worrying about it

My point wasn't about the mysterious workings of Portuguese law.

It was about one of the statements in the SC's assessment upon which the ruling was based.



In the book, we do not verify any reference to any facts that are not in that dispatch.

Where the author differs from the Prosecutors who have written the dispatch, is in the logical, police-work-related and investigative interpretation that he does of those facts.

In that aspect, we stand before the exercise of freedom of opinion, which is a domain in which the author is an expert, as he was a criminal investigator for 26 years.


That is simply not correct. If they had only spent an hour or two flipping pages, then that could be a genuine general impression, but it certainly can't be the result of a close inspection.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 06, 2015, 01:14:42 PM
As I said, I don't worry about it. The Court will decide.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 06, 2015, 01:17:08 PM
As I said, I don't worry about it. The Court will decide.


No doubt, but I hope that any final decision is based on more than flipping a few pages and making judgements on a partial perusal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 06, 2015, 01:17:17 PM
The same could be said of the "perfect parent" brigade. ;)

I am not disputing that.
I am fascinated by the way lines get drawn, sides form up, a uniform is devised and anything to do with the other side is dodgy by definition. A bit like Man U and Liverpool really where, for a Kop man, the next best thing to a Liverpool victory is a Man U loss. Frightfully tribal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 06, 2015, 01:24:53 PM
It remains to be seen if the appeal is allowed as the judge was quite clear on the breaches of the law as applicable to a former police officer, which dictated her ruling.

If Goncalo Amaral's defence team are sanguine about that being overruled by another court and the appeal is allowed, contributors to the fund will have to continue to dig long and deep.

Who has to give permission for an appeal, does anyone know?

8. Appeal
 
 
8.1 Grounds for appeal
The general rule is that a party may appeal to the court of second instance (“Tribunal da Relação”) when the value of the lawsuit is higher than EUR5,000 and the decision is unfavourable to the appealing party in an amount higher than EUR2,500.01 (Cf. Article 629 of the CPC). The court of second instance decides both on legal and factual issues.

A party may appeal to the Supreme Court when the value of the lawsuit is higher than EUR30,000 and the decision is unfavourable to the appealing party in an amount higher than EUR15,000.01.

The Supreme Court only rules on legal issues and, in most cases, cannot revoke the second instance judgment concerning the proven facts.

In most cases the parties cannot move to the Supreme Court if the first and the second instance courts have issued identical decisions with similar grounds.

The general rule is that the appeal does not suspend the proceedings unless the appealing party pays a deposit or presents a bank guarantee.
http://www.chambersandpartners.com/guide/practice-guides/location/241/6617/1422-200#questiongroup_299
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 06, 2015, 01:28:03 PM
I am not disputing that.
I am fascinated by the way lines get drawn, sides form up, a uniform is devised and anything to do with the other side is dodgy by definition. A bit like Man U and Liverpool really where, for a Kop man, the next best thing to a Liverpool victory is a Man U loss. Frightfully tribal.

None of which advances what actually happened to a little missing child who somehow became a "football".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2015, 01:30:55 PM
None of which advances what actually happened to a little missing child who somehow became a "football".

the only advance we might see will be due to SY...and many posters seem to want the investigation to stop
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 06, 2015, 01:33:42 PM
And some folk are racked off that other folk have happily contributed nine grand so far and sneer at them for doing so.
"everybody's gotta have somebody to look down on someone to be better than anytime at all"
K.Kristofferson.

You really should get out of the habit of making global statements tailored to suit your agenda ... I have seen no "racked offedness" of people using their money as they see fit ... how you interpret comment on that, is your affair.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 06, 2015, 01:35:25 PM
I didn't mention specifics in my post but now you bring it up:
The judge dispensed justice on a point of law as she saw it giving the defendants the right of appeal to a higher court. According to justice the defendants are allowed their day in court if the higher court deems there are grounds for appeal. One defendant has limited resources and folk are raising money to assist him have his day in court. What happens beyond that is yet to be revealed.

I agree with you on this Alice.  It is vital that both sides be represented properly, and have their day in court.  For reasons which have been rehearsed elsewhere the two parties are unequal in resource.   Therefore I am personally happy to put my money where my mouth is and support a fund to pay for proper representation for Amaral.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 06, 2015, 01:43:03 PM
I agree with you on this Alice.  It is vital that both sides be represented properly, and have their day in court.  For reasons which have been rehearsed elsewhere the two parties are unequal in resource.   Therefore I am personally happy to put my money where my mouth is and support a fund to pay for proper representation for Amaral.

Subjectively, if I had more spare cash, I can think of many causes that I would support and Amaral doesn't make it into my list of the top 1,000.

Objectively, I think I understand your perspective.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 06, 2015, 01:59:07 PM
I agree with you on this Alice.  It is vital that both sides be represented properly, and have their day in court.  For reasons which have been rehearsed elsewhere the two parties are unequal in resource.   Therefore I am personally happy to put my money where my mouth is and support a fund to pay for proper representation for Amaral.


What you seem to be saying JP is that justice is available only to those with the means to afford it.

The McCanns were in the position to have their legal fees underwritten in the civil case they took out against Goncalo Amaral ... had they been poor Portuguese peasants who would have set up a fund to help?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 06, 2015, 02:10:08 PM
Transparency and openness;

Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral's Legal Defence account has received in the past week

 € 3222,10
and
$ 90,57

through Paypal

and

£ 9,155

through the GoFundMe page created by Leanne Baulch.

There are no words to adequately express our gratitude for your support and solidarity. Thank you all.
http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 06, 2015, 02:17:33 PM

What you seem to be saying JP is that justice is available only to those with the means to afford it.

The McCanns were in the position to have their legal fees underwritten in the civil case they took out against Goncalo Amaral ... had they been poor Portuguese peasants who would have set up a fund to help?

In general, yes.  It is the reality but that does not make it fair.  In the UK, Legal Aid is (was) available in certain cases, and some household insurance policies will cover some legal expenses to defend ones rights.  Many firms have a pro bono scheme to handle a limited number of cases.  If these routes are not available then it is a case of pay up or surrender. 

In Portugal the legal aid scheme exists but is being reduced in scope.  And many lawyers do offer pro bono schemes.  But Amaral is in a bind (maybe of his own making but that is not my concern).  His main assets have been frozen, and he does not have access to them to cover legal fees.  He is without question entitled to his day in court if an appeal is granted, and in the interests of justice he must have access to proper representation. 

So In a sense Amaral is in the position of a poor Portuguese peasant, but is receiving some help. 

 
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 06, 2015, 03:00:04 PM
In general, yes.  It is the reality but that does not make it fair.  In the UK, Legal Aid is (was) available in certain cases, and some household insurance policies will cover some legal expenses to defend ones rights.  Many firms have a pro bono scheme to handle a limited number of cases.  If these routes are not available then it is a case of pay up or surrender. 

In Portugal the legal aid scheme exists but is being reduced in scope.  And many lawyers do offer pro bono schemes.  But Amaral is in a bind (maybe of his own making but that is not my concern).  His main assets have been frozen, and he does not have access to them to cover legal fees.  He is without question entitled to his day in court if an appeal is granted, and in the interests of justice he must have access to proper representation. 

So In a sense Amaral is in the position of a poor Portuguese peasant, but is receiving some help.


I am not sure exactly what principle is being defended here, particularly as this civil case could have been arbitrated some time ago.
If it had been I doubt we would ever have seen Goncalo Amaral being confirmed in a Portuguese Court in another two breaches of Law.  That might have long term repercussions for him?

The McCanns didn't entirely sweep the board as far as the judgement went.  Indeed if Goncalo Amaral had not, in the judge's opinion been guilty of two serious breaches they would have walked empty handed from the Court with arguably their reputations still in tatters.

One recognises the right of people to appeal decisions against them, if the law accepts grounds. 

If there are those willing to finance such appeals in this case, what they do with their money is of no concern to me.

I applaud the universal principle you uphold ... I am more selective or judgemental in my approach.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 06, 2015, 06:58:56 PM
You really should get out of the habit of making global statements tailored to suit your agenda ... I have seen no "racked offedness" of people using their money as they see fit ... how you interpret comment on that, is your affair.

You need to erase from your memory banks the notion I have an "agenda". If you feel strongly I have an "agenda" please be good enough to let me know what it is then I can behave accordingly.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 06, 2015, 07:18:18 PM
Who has to give permission for an appeal, does anyone know?

8. Appeal
 
 
8.1 Grounds for appeal
The general rule is that a party may appeal to the court of second instance (“Tribunal da Relação”) when the value of the lawsuit is higher than EUR5,000 and the decision is unfavourable to the appealing party in an amount higher than EUR2,500.01 (Cf. Article 629 of the CPC). The court of second instance decides both on legal and factual issues.

A party may appeal to the Supreme Court when the value of the lawsuit is higher than EUR30,000 and the decision is unfavourable to the appealing party in an amount higher than EUR15,000.01.

The Supreme Court only rules on legal issues and, in most cases, cannot revoke the second instance judgment concerning the proven facts.

In most cases the parties cannot move to the Supreme Court if the first and the second instance courts have issued identical decisions with similar grounds.

The general rule is that the appeal does not suspend the proceedings unless the appealing party pays a deposit or presents a bank guarantee.
http://www.chambersandpartners.com/guide/practice-guides/location/241/6617/1422-200#questiongroup_299

In Portugal, defendants always have the right to appeal and do not need to ask for permission to do so. The right to appeal is inscribed in the law as a protection. The defendant sends his arguments and the upper court makes its decision accordingly. The defendant can keep appealing up to the Supreme Court.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 06, 2015, 07:36:29 PM
In Portugal, defendants always have the right to appeal and do not need to ask for permission to do so. The right to appeal is inscribed in the law as a protection. The defendant sends his arguments and the upper court makes its decision accordingly. The defendant can keep appealing up to the Supreme Court.

Thanks, Montclair. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 06, 2015, 07:57:09 PM
In Portugal, defendants always have the right to appeal and do not need to ask for permission to do so. The right to appeal is inscribed in the law as a protection. The defendant sends his arguments and the upper court makes its decision accordingly. The defendant can keep appealing up to the Supreme Court.

I don't think that anyone is stating the contrary. But, as you said, there must be arguments, and those must presumbly be considered valid.

"I disagree" isn't a sufficient argument, is it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 06, 2015, 08:03:14 PM
I don't think that anyone is stating the contrary. But, as you said, there must be arguments, and those must presumbly be considered valid.

"I disagree" isn't a sufficient argument, is it?

Montclair was replying to me when i asked if permission to appeal was needed. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 06, 2015, 08:13:40 PM
I am not disputing that.
I am fascinated by the way lines get drawn, sides form up, a uniform is devised and anything to do with the other side is dodgy by definition. A bit like Man U and Liverpool really where, for a Kop man, the next best thing to a Liverpool victory is a Man U loss. Frightfully tribal.

My analysis exactly.

My beliefs right or wrong. Even if we are two divisions down we are still good and still winning. I know that because all my fellow believers support my delusions.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 06, 2015, 09:34:59 PM
In Portugal, defendants always have the right to appeal and do not need to ask for permission to do so. The right to appeal is inscribed in the law as a protection. The defendant sends his arguments and the upper court makes its decision accordingly. The defendant can keep appealing up to the Supreme Court.

Of course there is a right to appeal - that exists in all countries with an independent judiciary.  However, There must be proper grounds for making an appeal and there are strict time limits within which to do so.  This is prevent a losing party from denying justice to the winner by spinning things out indefinitely.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on May 06, 2015, 10:54:15 PM

Goncalo Amaral has been given leave to appeal.  It only remains to be seen if he can actually come up with a reason by which to do so.
And I am going to be the last person to deny him.  Although at this moment in time I cannot see what logical or legal reason for why he should be able.

Personally, I don't really care.  He can no longer go on spouting absolute rubbish about nothing much at all.  Which is what it was all about in the first place.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 06, 2015, 11:02:57 PM
Goncalo Amaral has been given leave to appeal.  It only remains to be seen if he can actually come up with a reason by which to do so.
And I am going to be the last person to deny him.  Although at this moment in time I cannot see what logical or legal reason for why he should be able.

Personally, I don't really care.  He can no longer go on spouting absolute rubbish about nothing much at all.  Which is what it was all about in the first place.

Don't worry, Gonçalo Amaral has plenty of logical and legal reasons to appeal.

As for spouting rubbish, the judgement stated that the book was not libellous and was based on facts but that, according to the judge, it is possible to besmirch someone's good name even when telling the truth.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 06, 2015, 11:07:40 PM
Don't worry, Gonçalo Amaral has plenty of logical and legal reasons to appeal.

As for spouting rubbish, the judgement stated that the book was not libellous and was based on facts but that, according to the judge, it is possible to besmirch someone's good name even when telling the truth.

Have you not bothered to read here for theast few days.

Amaral was found liable because he used privileged information and failed in his duty as a retired police officer to maintain the innocence of the McCanns.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on May 06, 2015, 11:22:53 PM
Don't worry, Gonçalo Amaral has plenty of logical and legal reasons to appeal.

As for spouting rubbish, the judgement stated that the book was not libellous and was based on facts but that, according to the judge, it is possible to besmirch someone's good name even when telling the truth.

So you expect him to be spouting rubbish on Television any time soon?  I don't think so.  In fact, I very much doubt that Goncalo Amaral will ever have another word to say about the case, least not in his own defence.

The rest will be for ever the meanderings of a very nasty man.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 06, 2015, 11:24:30 PM
So you expect him to be spouting rubbish on Television any time soon?  I don't think so.  In fact, I very much doubt that Goncalo Amaral will ever have another word to say about the case, least not in his own defence.

The rest will be for ever the meanderings of a very nasty man.

IYO Eleanor.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on May 06, 2015, 11:32:47 PM
IYO Eleanor.

Oh gosh. You think that I am actually entitled to an opinion that might differ from yours?

Goncalo Amaral was found guilty of abuse of privilege.  Spin that one if you can.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 06, 2015, 11:33:18 PM
Don't worry, Gonçalo Amaral has plenty of logical and legal reasons to appeal.

As for spouting rubbish, the judgement stated that the book was not libellous and was based on facts but that, according to the judge, it is possible to besmirch someone's good name even when telling the truth.

If the appeal is allowed, I feel he may be giving the McCann lawyers another window of opportunity, particularly as they have already achieved what many thought the impossible and may well be on a roll.
I'm sure they are well prepared for it anyway.

He must like the Courts holding his money for him, just like one of those investments you can't touch for some years, seems a good idea at the time, then you wish you hadn't because the interest rate is so rubbish you'd have been better just keeping it in a box under the bed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 06, 2015, 11:33:35 PM
Have you not bothered to read here for theast few days.

Amaral was found liable because he used privileged information and failed in his duty as a retired police officer to maintain the innocence of the McCanns.

I have read the judge's decision, thank you very much. Her decision is her decision and there is no reason why it cannot be overturned. Her arguments are more or less the same as the ones used by the judge in February 2010 and that ruling was overturned by the Tribunal de Relação.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 06, 2015, 11:39:37 PM
Oh gosh. You think that I am actually entitled to an opinion that might differ from yours?

Goncalo Amaral was found guilty of abuse of privilege.  Spin that one if you can.

But his book wasn't found to be libellous and that after all is what really matters isn't it ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 06, 2015, 11:40:51 PM
IYO Eleanor.

Wait and see. The judgement makes it very clear that he is required by his position as a retired police officer to maintain absolutely the innocence of he McCanns. This will somewhat limit his range of speech.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 06, 2015, 11:45:17 PM
But his book wasn't found to be libellous and that after all is what really matters isn't it ?

Nevertheless it was found to have damaged th McCanns and banned from further distribution for cash.

Also Amaral is now constrained to not use privileged knowledge derived from his employment and commanded to maintain absolutely the innocence of the McCanns.

This will limit his free speech somewhat and make his speeches somewhat boring. Just another superannuated cop.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 06, 2015, 11:48:36 PM
If the appeal is allowed, I feel he may be giving the McCann lawyers another window of opportunity, particularly as they have already achieved what many thought the impossible and may well be on a roll.
I'm sure they are well prepared for it anyway.

He must like the Courts holding his money for him, just like one of those investments you can't touch for some years, seems a good idea at the time, then you wish you hadn't because the interest rate is so rubbish you'd have been better just keeping it in a box under the bed.

You seem very sure that the McCanns have the finances to pursue 'another window of opportunity'. Iin fact if the donations to Kate's cycle challenge is any barometer of public opinion I'd advise the McCanns that trying to grab more of Amaral's money may not be the wisest PR move ATM.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 06, 2015, 11:57:42 PM
Nevertheless it was found to have damaged th McCanns and banned from further distribution for cash.

Also Amaral is now constrained to not use privileged knowledge fined from his employment and commanded to maintain absolutely the innocence of the McCanns.

This will limit his free speech somewhat and make his speeches somewhat boring. Just another superannuated cop.

The book was not deemed libellous and the McCanns have been denied the exoneration they so obviously craved.

Looking at it any other way is like applying a sticking plaster to an open,,festering wound.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 07, 2015, 12:10:17 AM
The book was not deemed libellous and the McCanns have been denied the exoneration they so obviously craved.

Looking at it any other way is like applying a sticking plaster to an open,,festering wound.

The McCanns expressed aim was to stop Amaral accusing them.

They have succeeded.

Amaral must not call their innocence into doubt or use privileged information gained in the course of his employment.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 07, 2015, 12:15:56 AM
The McCanns expressed aim was to stop Amaral accusing them.

They have succeeded.

Amaral must not call their innocence into doubt or use privileged information gained in the course of his employment.


I call that a result.  Probably on a par with the realisation that false forensic information had been disseminated when the FSS report came into the public domain.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on May 07, 2015, 12:21:23 AM
The McCanns expressed aim was to stop Amaral accusing them.

They have succeeded.

Amaral must not call their innocence into doubt or use privileged information gained in the course of his employment.

The actual damages werre just the icing on the cake

And will help their search for Madeleine.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 07, 2015, 12:22:28 AM
The McCanns expressed aim was to stop Amaral accusing them.

They have succeeded.

Amaral must not call their innocence into doubt or use privileged information gained in the course of his employment.

The McCanns expressed aim was to stop the search being harmed by the book, or at least that's how they justified spending fund money on the litigation.

However frustratingly the judge decided that no harm had been done to the search..Oops !
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 07, 2015, 12:30:28 AM
The McCanns expressed aim was to stop the search being harmed by the book, or at least that's how they justified spending fund money on the litigation.

However frustratingly the judge decided that no harm had been done to the search..Oops !

But the book has been banned which effectively stops any possible effect it might have on the search.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on May 07, 2015, 12:35:08 AM
But his book wasn't found to be libellous and that after all is what really matters isn't it ?

Do you really believe that?  You were never any more half daft than I am.

No, apparently his book wasn't actually Libellous, within Portuguese Law, which still remains a mystery to us all.

Not much point in asking you to consider their innocence, I don't suppose.  But if I ever wanted to convince anyone then it would be you.
But then I don't. You will come to it by your own common sense.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on May 07, 2015, 12:45:13 AM
Do you really believe that?  You were never any more half daft than I am.

No, apparently his book wasn't actually Libellous, within Portuguese Law, which still remains a mystery to us all.

Not much point in asking you to consider their innocence, I don't suppose.  But if I ever wanted to convince anyone then it would be you.
But then I don't. You will come to it by your own common sense.

He presented his and his police forces theory based on the  evidence in a book, when it was clear for them all it was going to be a whitewash, so what? I suppose you would shoot all whistleblowers?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 07, 2015, 12:50:48 AM
He presented his and his police forces theory based on the  evidence in a book, when it was clear for them all it was going to be a whitewash, so what? I suppose you would shoot all whistleblowers?

He misused privileged information and broke professional standards by accusing the legally innocent of being guilty.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on May 07, 2015, 01:03:15 AM
He misused privileged information and broke professional standards by accusing the legally innocent of being guilty.

So? Many have done so in the pursuit of truth....are you really one of the amaral [ censored word ]s that want him bankrupt whilst the mccanns profess to use the vast majority of their fund directly on search fees when its a fact its a lie? And use it for these proceedings
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 07, 2015, 01:10:00 AM
So? Many have done so in the pursuit of truth....are you really one of the amaral [ censored word ] that want him bankrupt whilst the mccanns profess to use the vast majority of their fund directly on search fees when its a fact its a lie? And use it for these proceedings

No. I am quite happy with the judgement of the Portuguese legal system which ha removed from him his ill gotten gains from the book nd other sources and put him in a Portuguese Gag so that he cannot further act unlawfully.

All his woes are of his own making. If he had maintained his professional standards he would currently be quietly retired. Instead he gambled on making illicit money from his early retirement and lost big.

I wish him no harm beyond that he has brought on himself.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on May 07, 2015, 01:18:54 AM
No. I am quite happy with the judgement of the Portuguese legal system which ha removed from him his ill gotten gains from the book nd other sources and put him in a Portuguese Gag so that he cannot further act unlawfully.

All his woes are of his own making. If he had maintained his professional standards he would currently be quietly retired. Instead he gambled on making illicit money from his early retirement and lost big.

I wish him no harm beyond that he has brought on himself.

All things come to good in the end.  And no one I know hates Goncalo Amaral.  He is mostly an irrelevance and really fightfully sad.

Such good he could have done.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 07, 2015, 08:58:35 AM
He misused privileged information and broke professional standards by accusing the legally innocent of being guilty.

That is one judge's opinion only. The ruling of the Tribunal de Relação ruled that Gonçalo Amaral's rights to freedom of expression, as a Portuguese citizen, prevailed over his obligations as a retired policeman. Furthermore, the judges stated that his 26 years of experience also validated his opinion. The complete opposite of last week's decision.

AFAIK, Gonçalo Amaral has never been punished by the PJ hierarchy for breaking professional standards and if they believed that he had, any measures should have been taken 7 years ago.

BTW, the McCanns have never been declared legally innocent.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 07, 2015, 08:59:32 AM
The McCanns 'won' the 'libel' trial (partly). Amaral 'lost' the 'libel' trial (partly). As a result they get all his money plus interest. He didn't libel them though, apparently he 'damaged' them by writing his book when he did and by his conclusions in the book. They were 'damaged' already but he made it worse. He didn't damage the search for their daughter and he didn't damage any of the children.

The McCanns were 'delighted' with the verdict. They told Sky News;
 
"We want to emphasise that the action was never about money. It has always been focused on the effects of the libels on our other children and the damage that was done to the search for Madeleine," they said in a statement.
http://news.sky.com/story/1473806/mccanns-delighted-with-433k-libel-victory

I wonder what they were delighted about? Neither of their stated aims was achieved. They achieved the complete ruin of Amaral however, and had the book banned (again), so a good result. Or was it?  Even Sky, the Mccann's friend, printed a picture in the above article of police digging up Praia da Luz, rather than, say, an age-progressed picture of Madeleine.

People have donated £ 10,000 in seven days to Amaral's legal defence because of their anger at being labeled as 'trolls' and because they think that Amaral has been victimised by the actions of a couple who say it's not about money but appear to spend most of their energies gathering it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 07, 2015, 09:01:29 AM
The McCanns expressed aim was to stop Amaral accusing them.

They have succeeded.

Amaral must not call their innocence into doubt or use privileged information gained in the course of his employment.

The McCanns' expressed aim was to destroy him from the beginning. As Kate said in her book, she wanted him to suffer pain and feel fear.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 07, 2015, 09:04:21 AM
The McCanns' expressed aim was to destroy him from the beginning. As Kate said in her book, she wanted him to suffer pain and feel fear.

And in that they have been successful. Ruined and gagged.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 07, 2015, 09:06:59 AM
That is one judge's opinion only. The ruling of the Tribunal de Relação ruled that Gonçalo Amaral's rights to freedom of expression, as a Portuguese citizen, prevailed over his obligations as a retired policeman. Furthermore, the judges stated that his 26 years of experience also validated his opinion. The complete opposite of last week's decision.

AFAIK, Gonçalo Amaral has never been punished by the PJ hierarchy for breaking professional standards and if they believed that he had, any measures should have been taken 7 years ago.

BTW, the McCanns have never been declared legally innocent.

Unfortunately it is the current decision of the Portuguese Legal system and will remain so unless Amaral appeals. He has another four weeks or so.

We shall see.

If he does not appeal, will you accept it as a final decision?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 07, 2015, 09:08:00 AM
And in that they have been successful. Ruined and gagged.

Ruined hardly, his assets were already seized.

Gagged hardly.

Too late for that.

Interesting to see the number of donations to Amaral, compared to the latest mccanns charity  PR exercise.

As to the mccanns getting any money from Amaral, when is that exactly ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 07, 2015, 09:13:10 AM
Ruined hardly, his assets were already seized.

Gagged hardly.

Too late for that.

Interesting to see the number of donations to Amaral, compared to the latest mccanns charity  PR exercise.

As to the mccanns getting any money from Amaral, when is that exactly ?

Rather than benefiting from the 350 000 euro profits from his book, he owes the McCanns 500 000 and will have to rely on his police pension. He will lose his house.

He cannot make any more pronouncements about the McCann's 'guilt' and cannot profit in future from his authorship of the book which he has been ordered to surrender his copyright rights.

Ruined and gagged.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 07, 2015, 09:59:39 AM
But the book has been banned which effectively stops any possible effect it might have on the search.

THERE WAS NO EFFECT Oxy it has been legally proven. You can't cherry pick the verdict and promote the parts that suit your agenda. How does that promote justice ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 07, 2015, 10:00:00 AM
They haven't been charged and/or been through the court system as regards Madeleine's disappearance, in case you haven't noticed.

The crime hasn't been determined.

Try to keep up.

No crime, no guilt, therefore innocent in the eyes of the law.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 07, 2015, 10:07:49 AM
And in that they have been successful. Ruined and gagged.

Maybe from a financial point of view but not morally.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 07, 2015, 10:11:07 AM
Maybe from a financial point of view but not morally.


You may not believe him to be morally questionable but many other people would.

He is a convicted criminal and has been found civilly liable for abusing his position as a law officer to benefit himself financially.

I would say that those two facts do dent his claim to morality.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 07, 2015, 10:12:00 AM
When the court releases Amaral's sequestered funds after he fails to appeal or loses his appeal.

Then of course there is the Supreme Court and the European Court of Human Rights.

So the money is years away.

Shame.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 07, 2015, 10:16:03 AM
You may not believe him to be morally questionable but many other people would.

He is a convicted criminal and has been found civilly liable for abusing his position as a law officer to benefit himself financially.

I would say that those two facts do dent his claim to morality.

Did the judge say anything about Amaral abusing his position to benefit himself financially ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 07, 2015, 10:23:38 AM
Did the judge say anything about Amaral abusing his position to benefit himself financially ?

He was found liable for publishing a book for profit using privileged information nd ignoring his responsibility to maintain the innocence of people.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 07, 2015, 10:24:35 AM
THERE WAS NO EFFECT Oxy it has been legally proven. You can't cherry pick the verdict and promote the parts that suit your agenda. How does that promote justice ?

I disagree with that formulation. It's not that it was proven that there wasn't any - it was considered not proven that there was one. There is a nuance.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 07, 2015, 10:28:36 AM
Unfortunately it is the current decision of the Portuguese Legal system and will remain so unless Amaral appeals. He has another four weeks or so.

We shall see.

If he does not appeal, will you accept it as a final decision?

Of course, Gonçalo Amaral is going to appeal, you can be sure of that. BTW, this decision is not enforceable yet until all appeals have been exhausted (that is if the higher courts uphold that decision).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 07, 2015, 10:30:44 AM
Of course, Gonçalo Amaral is going to appeal, you can be sure of that. BTW, this decision is not enforceable yet until all appeals have been exhausted (that is if the higher courts uphold that decision).

Wait and see. Can he afford to appeal? Will he be able to present a case with a chance of success?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 07, 2015, 10:31:22 AM
He was found liable for publishing a book for profit using privileged information nd ignoring his responsibility to maintain the innocence of people.

Perhaps you can point out where the judge mentions Amaral's reasons for publishing his book and admonishes him for them ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 07, 2015, 10:32:16 AM
The McCanns are entitled to be presumed innocent in law by anyone involved in the Judicial process. Since when did the UK papers print truth?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 07, 2015, 10:38:51 AM
Are you innocent?

You enjoy the right to be considered innocent until proven guilty,in case you were unaware of it ... just as the McCanns have the right to exactly the same presumption of innocence.

Well as regards this case, I wasn't in Portugal on the 3 rd May 2007.

Were you ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 07, 2015, 10:45:18 AM
The McCanns are entitled to be presumed innocent in law by anyone involved in the Judicial process. Since when did the UK papers print truth?


'Presumed' is the word.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 07, 2015, 10:54:58 AM
Many sensible people disagree with you. The McCanns are entitled to be presumed innocent in law by anyone involved in the Judicial process. Since when did the UK papers print truth?

The UK public will read what is in the papers and on the whole believe it....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 07, 2015, 10:57:38 AM
The UK public will read what is in the papers and on the whole believe it....

What difference is that going to make ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 07, 2015, 11:07:47 AM

'Presumed' is the word.

No. There are two states.

They ARE innocent in the eyes of the law.

Should they come to trial they are entitled to also be PRESUMED innocent for the purpose of the trial.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 07, 2015, 11:11:52 AM
Well as regards this case, I wasn't in Portugal on the 3 rd May 2007.

Were you ?

I meant in general, Stephen.

You are seen cutting your hedge with hedging shears.
Your next door neighbour with whom you have had a spat, mysteriously disappears:  two days later he is found in your potting shed with your hedging shears sticking out of his back.

YOU ARE GUILTY!!!

Of course you are not.  You are innocent until the police can find evidence to prove your guilt.  Really quite a simple thing to understand, which makes the campaigns of vilification against the McCanns all the more extraordinary.

Portugal recognises the right to the presumption of innocence; the judge in her ruling made it quite clear the McCanns are innocent; so I think that may be one of Mr Amaral's avenues for appeal out of the window.

As far as her other finding goes ... I wonder if there is a Statute of Limitation in force on the offence ... she made it quite clear his retired status did not exonerate him from the burden of confidentiality ... so the appeal may happen or it may not, but it will be interesting to see if a criminal action replaces it.
I don't think it is at all outwith the bounds of possibility.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 07, 2015, 11:17:04 AM
Algarve Resident, 6 may 2015, paper edition.
Natasha Donn natasha.donn@algarveresident.com

After what many consider the bombshell of a judicial decision - setting record damages for a private Portugese citizen - British supporters of former PJ inspector Gonçalo Amaral are rallying en-masse to a "gofundme" online appeal - started intriguingly by a young British woman who was only 14 when Madeleine McCann went missing. In less than a week, 22-year-old Leanne Baulch's appeal has raised over £9,200. British media has slated it - suggesting it is powered by "sick online trolls". The Resident follows this fast-developing story which shows no sign of losing pace.

If anything, the impetus now is to find a "high-profile donor" - someone "prepared to underwrite the legal costs" that Amaral faces as he appeals against the judge's decision that awarded record damages against him in the long-running civil action for defamation taken out by the McCanns over his book The Truth of the Lie.
Slapping Amaral with a bill that tops £600.000 all told, Express on Sunday suggested at the weekend that Judge Emilia Melo e Castro had effectively "ruined and shamed" the man who led the original police investigation into Madeleine's disappearance.
The Sun was equally scathing, describing 56-year-old Amaral as a "lie cop" in its exposé of what is described as a "sick online campaign".
But the publicity seems to have "backfired", Leanne Baulch tells us.
One couldn't say people are digging "deep" into their pockets, as many donations are for small amounts - but it is certainly a "mass fork out", with multiple commentaries refuting main stream media's slur that these people are "trolls".
A donor by the name of Emma Mitchell, giving £100, wrote: "Shame on you The Sun - Keep fighting GA, Madeleine deserves justice and so do you".
Another added her contribution, saying: "From yet another 'nasty internet troll' keep fighting GA, we are behind you all the way".
Comments on stories posted on our portugalresident.com website also show readers reacting to the insinuation that "anyone who questions the abduction theory" is a troll.
Calling it "a total disgrace", Jayne Staverley suggests that the Sun's reporters "are still in primary school".
But the tragedy behind these comments is that while Madeleine's parents have always maintained their civil action against Amaral was "never about the money", it is now becoming more and more clear how important a role money has taken on in this case.
Miss Baulch's appeal - an extension of the long-running Portugese "Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral" fund to which she stresses she has "no access whatsoever" - has set out to raise £25.000. As we wrote, donations were steadily flowing in, with over 500 people having raised £9.205 in six days.
Questioned about whether she imagined she would get such a response, the single-mother from Birmingham told us: "I had no idea. I was just desperate to help. I didn't expect the media to get involved. The Sun and Express reporting shocked me, but it backfired."

As Amaral is thus buoyed by this latest bid to raise money to help him, British media has been carrying 8th anniversary "Madeleine disappearance" stories, including new "revelations" about a string of burglaries on the Praia da Luz resort from which Madeleine went missing.
These burglaries are presented as adding weight to the British police theory that Madeleine may have been abducted as a result of a botched burglary.
But noteworthy when considering mainstream media's preoccupation with "vile trolls" is the report by Sky news, coming in last week, that the so-called "hate dossier" that hit the headlines eight months ago is not going to result in any prosecutions.
The dossier - which led to the suicide of grandmother Brenda Leyland after she was "outed" as a so-called troll on live television, had been delivered to Leicester Police by what Sky described as an "anonymous source".
Keenly involved in the story, Sky's crime expert Martin Brunt claimed that the anonymous source (or sources) have reacted with "absolute dismay" at the decision not to prosecute.
"They say it is tantamount to giving trolls carte blanche to carry on abusing the McCanns," he wrote.
"Although we haven't heard directly from the McCanns, I am sure they too will be astonished because - Gerry McCann said such trolls should be prosecuted."
As we wrote this story, a new comment appeared on the gofundme site, signed from "MA", "Dr. Amaral, my pledge is to pay an apology fine for every article I see that is biased and un-factual on your behalf. Today's fine is on behalf of the Express for their use of "troll", "shamed" and "sickening".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 07, 2015, 11:35:13 AM
Yes, up to 10.5 grand this morning in about a week.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 07, 2015, 11:38:16 AM
At a rate even higher that the "ridiculous" rate I postulated tongue in cheek a few days ago!

I am surprised...but it just proves how stupid some people are
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 07, 2015, 11:51:29 AM
I am surprised...but it just proves how stupid some people are

Only in your opinion.

There is a theory that the easiest way to become rich is to place a dustbin outside ones house bearing the message "It is absolutely forbidden to throw money in here".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 07, 2015, 10:30:32 PM
Thanks for posting the link, perhaps you can explain how this page is going to helpAmaral win his appeal?

It won't. Why do you think it would ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 07, 2015, 11:00:41 PM
It won't. Why do you think it would ?
I don't, however there seems to have been some excitement in the sceptic community tonight that this page is hugely significant, so much so that screenshots of it have been sent to Amaral's lawyer.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 07, 2015, 11:56:32 PM
http://portugalresident.com/poll/do-you-agree-with-a-lisbon-court-sentence-ordering-former-police-inspector-gon%C3%A7alo-amaral-to
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 08, 2015, 01:01:35 AM
I don't, however there seems to have been some excitement in the sceptic community tonight that this page is hugely significant, so much so that screenshots of it have been sent to Amaral's lawyer.

Really ? Why ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 08, 2015, 09:04:39 AM
Thanks for posting the link, perhaps you can explain how this page is going to helpAmaral win his appeal?

 I doubt it will be of assistance to Mr Amaral in his appeal, should he find grounds for taking one forward.  Conversely, it may be of use to the McCann legal team in their argument showing the damage which continues to their clients' reputation.

The highlighting of this manner of raising funds also introduces into the equation the question of a charity endeavour and one of raising funding for the personal benefit of an individual, and may be of assistance to the Portuguese Court which has sequestered Mr Amaral's earnings.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 08, 2015, 09:17:28 AM
I doubt it will be of assistance to Mr Amaral in his appeal, should he find grounds for taking one forward.  Conversely, it may be of use to the McCann legal team in their argument showing the damage which continues to their clients' reputation.

The highlighting of this manner of raising funds also introduces into the equation the question of a charity endeavour and one of raising funding for the personal benefit of an individual, and may be of assistance to the Portuguese Court which has sequestered Mr Amaral's earnings.

It would be a slightly topsy-turvey approach to set about raising the money for an appeal first, and discover you have no grounds for an appeal second.

But, who knows? ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 08, 2015, 09:43:54 AM
It would be a slightly topsy-turvey approach to set about raising the money for an appeal first, and discover you have no grounds for an appeal second.

But, who knows? ....

I'm not sure whether the chicken or the egg came first in all of this.

The previous fund seemed to be set up in a way which did not excite the interest of the Court.  This one seems to have been set-up in a rather more haphazard fashion.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carew on May 08, 2015, 10:10:33 AM
It would be a slightly topsy-turvey approach to set about raising the money for an appeal first, and discover you have no grounds for an appeal second.

But, who knows? ....

Well..........a fund was set up quite quickly for the McCann family , with a "missing child awareness event" planned for some time ahead when there was every chance she might be found quite quickly.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 08, 2015, 10:17:26 AM
It would be a slightly topsy-turvey approach to set about raising the money for an appeal first, and discover you have no grounds for an appeal second.

But, who knows? ....

Don't worry your pretty little heads, Gonçalo Amaral and his lawyers have plenty of arguments to present in their appeal because they are appealing without a doubt. I don't understand some of you here who keep thinking that he will not be able to appeal. Some of you seem to think that some judge will come out and say that he can't appeal because he has no grounds, but it doesn't work that way in Portugal. Appeals to higher courts are consecrated in the law in Portugal in the name of justice and fairness.

Some of you seem very worried about his appealing and don't like the fact that people are willing to pay his legal costs.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 08, 2015, 10:56:14 AM
I find it strange that anyone who has doubts about the parent's version of events is suspected of being a member of a 'group' spread across the internet spouting lies and feeling hate.

Similarly, pointing out that the Mccann victory over Amaral was not quite the unqualified success suggested by the parents and the media results in accusations of belonging to a group who 'idolise' Amaral and think everything he does is wonderful.

Most people's positions are not so black and white as some seem to think they are. The PJ made mistakes which they have acknowledged. As co-ordinator Amaral has to take the blame for that. The parents made a mistake also, for which they have to take the blame.

The right to appeal is there and people who think Amaral has been badly treated by the court wish to help him financially with that appeal. That's their right and it doesn't make them stupid, trolls, [ censored word ]s, or anything else.





Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 08, 2015, 11:04:11 AM
I find it strange that anyone who has doubts about the parent's version of events is suspected of being a member of a 'group' spread across the internet spouting lies and feeling hate.

Similarly, pointing out that the Mccann victory over Amaral was not quite the unqualified success suggested by the parents and the media results in accusations of belonging to a group who 'idolise' Amaral and think everything he does is wonderful.

Most people's positions are not so black and white as some seem to think they are. The PJ made mistakes which they have acknowledged. As co-ordinator Amaral has to take the blame for that. The parents made a mistake also, for which they have to take the blame.

The right to appeal is there and people who think Amaral has been badly treated by the court wish to help him financially with that appeal. That's their right and it doesn't make them stupid, trolls, [ censored word ], or anything else.


I would agree. I post on here and one other forum because I want to and the subject interests me. I belong to no 'sceptic grouping' anywhere and wouldn't wish to.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 08, 2015, 12:27:39 PM
I find it strange that anyone who has doubts about the parent's version of events is suspected of being a member of a 'group' spread across the internet spouting lies and feeling hate.

Similarly, pointing out that the Mccann victory over Amaral was not quite the unqualified success suggested by the parents and the media results in accusations of belonging to a group who 'idolise' Amaral and think everything he does is wonderful.

Most people's positions are not so black and white as some seem to think they are. The PJ made mistakes which they have acknowledged. As co-ordinator Amaral has to take the blame for that. The parents made a mistake also, for which they have to take the blame.

The right to appeal is there and people who think Amaral has been badly treated by the court wish to help him financially with that appeal. That's their right and it doesn't make them stupid, trolls, [ censored word ], or anything else.

where have the parents or anyone else said the result was an unqualified success..
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 08, 2015, 12:41:38 PM
He can submit an appeal based on legal points and facts.

Questions:

Can he submit new facts or just dispute the validity of those already considered?

Can the McCanns only respond to the points raised in the appeal? Or can they raise new elements if they have any?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 08, 2015, 01:03:56 PM
He can submit an appeal based on legal points and facts.

Questions:

Can he submit new facts or just dispute the validity of those already considered?

Can the McCanns only respond to the points raised in the appeal? Or can they raise new elements if they have any?

The following may clarify questions relating to time limits for appeal, and the process:

The general rule is that the appealing party has 30 days to appeal to the higher court in the event that the appeal is to the court of second instance (Cf. Article 638 of the CPC). If the appeal includes the impeachment of the proven facts through a review of the recorded witnesses or party statements, then the appealing party has 40 days to appeal.

However, in some specific cases (e.g. freezing orders) the appealing party has only 15 days to appeal.

The defendant in the appeal always has the same term to present an answer.

The first instance court will then decide whether the appeal should be accepted. If it is accepted, the case is sent to the higher court.

On the basis of historic evidence, it is estimated that the second instance courts take on average between six months and one year to decide an appeal, and that the Supreme Court will take on average three to six months to issue a final decision

__________

This means that there is a right to appeal, within a set timescale. 

The defendant in the appeal has a similar limited time to respond.

The first instance court will then decide on whether the appeal has merit and if it decides it has, the case is sent to the second instance court.   So although there is a right to appeal, that does not guarantee that the appeal will be heard in a higher court.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 08, 2015, 01:41:48 PM
Thanks JP, that's one bit of the puzzle.

Do you have a link to the latest CPC?

I don't think the one I've been looking at recently can be it as none of the article numbers correspond.

http://www.dgpj.mj.pt/sections/leis-da-justica/livro-iii-leis-civis-e/consolidacao-processo/codigo-processo-civil/downloadFile/file/CODIGO_PROCESSO_CIVIL_VF.pdf?nocache=1286970369.12
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 08, 2015, 01:49:56 PM
Thanks JP, that's one bit of the puzzle.

Do you have a link to the latest CPC?

I don't think the one I've been looking at recently can be it as none of the article numbers correspond.

http://www.dgpj.mj.pt/sections/leis-da-justica/livro-iii-leis-civis-e/consolidacao-processo/codigo-processo-civil/downloadFile/file/CODIGO_PROCESSO_CIVIL_VF.pdf?nocache=1286970369.12

What is puzzling you Carana?  I will have a go at answering.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 08, 2015, 01:51:41 PM
The following may clarify questions relating to time limits for appeal, and the process:

The general rule is that the appealing party has 30 days to appeal to the higher court in the event that the appeal is to the court of second instance (Cf. Article 638 of the CPC). If the appeal includes the impeachment of the proven facts through a review of the recorded witnesses or party statements, then the appealing party has 40 days to appeal.

However, in some specific cases (e.g. freezing orders) the appealing party has only 15 days to appeal.

The defendant in the appeal always has the same term to present an answer.

The first instance court will then decide whether the appeal should be accepted. If it is accepted, the case is sent to the higher court.

On the basis of historic evidence, it is estimated that the second instance courts take on average between six months and one year to decide an appeal, and that the Supreme Court will take on average three to six months to issue a final decision

__________

This means that there is a right to appeal, within a set timescale. 

The defendant in the appeal has a similar limited time to respond.

The first instance court will then decide on whether the appeal has merit and if it decides it has, the case is sent to the second instance court.   So although there is a right to appeal, that does not guarantee that the appeal will be heard in a higher court.

Look, you simply do not understand. Gonçalo Amaral will submit his appeal, it will be then heard (or read) by the Tribunal de Relação, who will study the case and make a ruling. Ponto final. GA does not have to wait for some authorisation to make an appeal. After the ruling by the TdR any of the parties can appeal that decision and it will go on and on...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: DCI on May 08, 2015, 01:58:15 PM
The following may clarify questions relating to time limits for appeal, and the process:

The general rule is that the appealing party has 30 days to appeal to the higher court in the event that the appeal is to the court of second instance (Cf. Article 638 of the CPC). If the appeal includes the impeachment of the proven facts through a review of the recorded witnesses or party statements, then the appealing party has 40 days to appeal.

However, in some specific cases (e.g. freezing orders) the appealing party has only 15 days to appeal.

The defendant in the appeal always has the same term to present an answer.

The first instance court will then decide whether the appeal should be accepted. If it is accepted, the case is sent to the higher court.

On the basis of historic evidence, it is estimated that the second instance courts take on average between six months and one year to decide an appeal, and that the Supreme Court will take on average three to six months to issue a final decision

__________

This means that there is a right to appeal, within a set timescale. 

The defendant in the appeal has a similar limited time to respond.

The first instance court will then decide on whether the appeal has merit and if it decides it has, the case is sent to the second instance court.   So although there is a right to appeal, that does not guarantee that the appeal will be heard in a higher court.


So Amaral is appealing an impeachment of proven facts, through a review of the recorded witness's or party statements?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 08, 2015, 02:11:23 PM
What is puzzling you Carana?  I will have a go at answering.

I should have said "can't" be it... but I'm not sure. All the articles are out by about 200 in what I'm looking at... so that can't be right.

If I find a code with a date on it, that might help. I'll check to see if I find a different link and if I can't decipher the lusojuridicobabble, I'll come back to you if I may (not necessarily specifically about the appeal process).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 08, 2015, 02:17:12 PM
Look, you simply do not understand. Gonçalo Amaral will submit his appeal, it will be then heard (or read) by the Tribunal de Relação, who will study the case and make a ruling. Ponto final. GA does not have to wait for some authorisation to make an appeal. After the ruling by the TdR any of the parties can appeal that decision and it will go on and on...

The process is that the appealing party will submit his appeal within the given timescale to the court of first instance, who will rule on whether the appeal has merit.  The defendant party has a right to respond to the basis for appeal. 

If it is decide the appeal has merit, the court will refer the case to the court of second instance, (Tribunal de Relação) for the appeal to be heard with both parties represented. 

The reason for this overview by the lower court is to prevent the higher courts being clogged up by disgruntled losing parties bringing hopeless appeals.   

So there is a right to attempt an appeal, but no guarantee that the appeal will be heard.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 08, 2015, 02:17:28 PM
I don't do face book or tw..ter and wouldn't know where to look on the net as I am not a member of the "sceptic clan" which you seem to think exists and will end civilisation as you think it should be. I only came in here because "The McCann Files" was down for a couple of days and it gives the opportunity for a "bundle".
There are folk on both sides of any argument like this one, who really believe they will make a difference. I put it down to the desire to want to "belong".
Don't knock them; after all your presence is unlikely to be for reasons of altruism, this forum not being big enough to significantly change opinion in the round.
So,you're a lone wolf but that doesn't mean that there isn't a community of online" sceptics" (there clearly is) - I have never claimed however that they have the power to end civilisation.  I just think that they're a strange bunch that's all (witness the latest attempts to help Amaral with the Fiona Webster charity page - completely bonkers!)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 08, 2015, 02:19:24 PM

So Amaral is appealing an impeachment of proven facts, through a review of the recorded witness's or party statements?

I don't think we have any idea of the basis of any appeal. The appeal may be based on legal issues of proven facts (or both). 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 08, 2015, 02:19:57 PM
The process is that the appealing party will submit his appeal within the given timescale to the court of first instance, who will rule on whether the appeal has merit.  The defendant party has a right to respond to the basis for appeal. 

If it is decide the appeal has merit, the court will refer the case to the court of second instance, (Tribunal de Relação) for the appeal to be heard with both parties represented. 

The reason for this overview by the lower court is to prevent the higher courts being clogged up by disgruntled losing parties bringing hopeless appeals.   

So there is a right to attempt an appeal, but no guarantee that the appeal will be heard.
If there was an automatic appeal process (without any due consideration as Montclair is suggesting) then presumably EVERYBODY would appeal ANY decision against them...?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 08, 2015, 02:26:44 PM
If there was an automatic appeal process (without any due consideration as Montclair is suggesting) then presumably EVERYBODY would appeal ANY decision against them...?

Not necessarily every decision, because appeals involve costs and risks of an even worse outcome.  But in essence, yes.  That is why although there is a right to appeal, the lower court will triage appeals presented to ensure they have merit.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: DCI on May 08, 2015, 02:38:18 PM
I don't think we have any idea of the basis of any appeal. The appeal may be based on legal issues of proven facts (or both).

Montclair said he had 40 days to appeal. Going by the time line and reasons, it seems that is his basis?

"The general rule is that the appealing party has 30 days to appeal to the higher court in the event that the appeal is to the court of second instance (Cf. Article 638 of the CPC). If the appeal includes the impeachment of the proven facts through a review of the recorded witnesses or party statements, then the appealing party has 40 days to appeal".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 08, 2015, 02:45:40 PM
Montclair said he had 40 days to appeal. Going by the time line and reasons, it seems that is his basis?

"The general rule is that the appealing party has 30 days to appeal to the higher court in the event that the appeal is to the court of second instance (Cf. Article 638 of the CPC). If the appeal includes the impeachment of the proven facts through a review of the recorded witnesses or party statements, then the appealing party has 40 days to appeal".


Possibly if this has been interpreted correctly. 

So if correct he will need to dispute one or more of the proven facts and set out reasons. 

by the by, if both the 1st and 2nd instance courts come to an identical judgement then there is no appeal to the Supreme Court, which can only rule on Legal basis.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 08, 2015, 04:03:12 PM
So,you're a lone wolf but that doesn't mean that there isn't a community of online" sceptics" (there clearly is) - I have never claimed however that they have the power to end civilisation.  I just think that they're a strange bunch that's all (witness the latest attempts to help Amaral with the Fiona Webster charity page - completely bonkers!)

I find both sides of the "extreme coin" weird but no weirder than a lot of other cults (for the want of a better term). The universal tribal principle that one person will swear black is white because a member of the other tribe said black is black is somewhat bizarre but people will do the daftest things. One can see examples of it on here most days; no names no packdrill.
The issue with Fiona Webster's charity page is no stranger than the recent episode on here about the Leicestershire police must be bent/incompetent/fill in as appropriate, because "The Dossier" did not result in prosecutions. Maybe the cops and CPS thought the dossier was vexatious crap only fit to light up a fire?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 08, 2015, 04:51:48 PM
So,you're a lone wolf but that doesn't mean that there isn't a community of online" sceptics" (there clearly is) - I have never claimed however that they have the power to end civilisation.  I just think that they're a strange bunch that's all (witness the latest attempts to help Amaral with the Fiona Webster charity page - completely bonkers!)

Do you have a cite for that Alfie ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 08, 2015, 05:07:00 PM
Taking into consideration the amounts involved, € 500.000,00 plus interest, Gonçalo Amaral has the automatic right to appeal, no authority can deny him that. By fining him that amount the judge forced Gonçalo Amaral to appeal, he has no other choice.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 08, 2015, 05:42:09 PM
I'm curious... were no books ever sold in Brazil?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 08, 2015, 05:44:11 PM
Taking into consideration the amounts involved, € 500.000,00 plus interest, Gonçalo Amaral has the automatic right to appeal, no authority can deny him that. By fining him that amount the judge forced Gonçalo Amaral to appeal, he has no other choice.

It is not a fine, it is a award of damages. 

And yes, of course.  The barrier level for eventual appeal to the supreme court if a monetary amount of damages exceeds 15k euros.  He has the right to appeal, but the process involves demonstrating the grounds on which he intends to appeal.  If he cannot demonstrate legal or factual grounds then the appeal process will end there.

So he has until the 23rd May, or the 2nd June to lodge an appeal.

My prediction is that he will try to spin this out for as long as possible to put off the evil day.  I suspect his lawyer's secretary should be very careful  8(0(*   
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 08, 2015, 05:46:38 PM
Do you have a cite for that Alfie ?
A cite for what?  I have already named the bonkers FB page on which this nonsense appears, surprised you're not a member tbh!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 08, 2015, 05:48:53 PM
I find both sides of the "extreme coin" weird but no weirder than a lot of other cults (for the want of a better term). The universal tribal principle that one person will swear black is white because a member of the other tribe said black is black is somewhat bizarre but people will do the daftest things. One can see examples of it on here most days; no names no packdrill.
The issue with Fiona Webster's charity page is no stranger than the recent episode on here about the Leicestershire police must be bent/incompetent/fill in as appropriate, because "The Dossier" did not result in prosecutions. Maybe the cops and CPS thought the dossier was vexatious crap only fit to light up a fire?
Sorry, but it's a lot stranger IMO because it is completely bereft of logic.  Criticising LP for not pursuing prosecutions is a legitimate opinion, even if it's one you don't agree with.  Believing that Fiona Webster's charity page will help Amaral win an appeal is just straight-foward nuts.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 08, 2015, 05:55:27 PM
Sorry, but it's a lot stranger IMO because it is completely bereft of logic.  Criticising LP for not pursuing prosecutions is a legitimate opinion, even if it's one you don't agree with.  Believing that Fiona Webster's charity page will help Amaral win an appeal is just straight-foward nuts.

The universal tribal principle that one person will swear black is white because a member of the other tribe said black is black is somewhat bizarre but people will do the daftest things. One can see examples of it on here most days; no names no packdrill.

You would appear to be making my point for me. Much obliged.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 08, 2015, 06:50:03 PM
A cite for what?  I have already named the bonkers FB page on which this nonsense appears, surprised you're not a member tbh!

You are sounding rather fractious Alfie. Things not going well ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 08, 2015, 06:57:36 PM
The universal tribal principle that one person will swear black is white because a member of the other tribe said black is black is somewhat bizarre but people will do the daftest things. One can see examples of it on here most days; no names no packdrill.

You would appear to be making my point for me. Much obliged.
Where am I swearing that black is white?  I have made an observation about a group of "sceptics" that I'm sure even you must agree with - what is bizarre about that and what point do you think has been made?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 08, 2015, 07:00:55 PM
You are sounding rather fractious Alfie. Things not going well ?
No, they're going awfully badly, thanks for asking.  Amaral has made toast of the McCanns and they owe him thousands, plus he has the whole of Great Britain voting him Top Geezer of the Year Award, and they're now literally  stuffing his pockets with £50 notes.  it's a sad state of affairs and no mistake, that's why I appear so terribly fractious.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 08, 2015, 07:04:52 PM
It is not a fine, it is a award of damages. 

And yes, of course.  The barrier level for eventual appeal to the supreme court if a monetary amount of damages exceeds 15k euros.  He has the right to appeal, but the process involves demonstrating the grounds on which he intends to appeal.  If he cannot demonstrate legal or factual grounds then the appeal process will end there.

So he has until the 23rd May, or the 2nd June to lodge an appeal.

My prediction is that he will try to spin this out for as long as possible to put off the evil day.  I suspect his lawyer's secretary should be very careful  8(0(*

The appeal process will end at the Supreme court. You just don't understand or you take your desires for reality. I'm not saying anymore about this.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 08, 2015, 07:08:17 PM
The appeal process will end at the Supreme court. You just don't understand or you take your desires for reality. I'm not saying anymore about this.

The appeal process MAY end at the SC. Appeal is neither automatic nor automatically granted. Amaral could chicken out or be refused leave to appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 08, 2015, 07:36:20 PM
Chill. What will be will be.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 08, 2015, 08:14:06 PM
Where am I swearing that black is white?  I have made an observation about a group of "sceptics" that I'm sure even you must agree with - what is bizarre about that and what point do you think has been made?

Try to think of principle dear boy rather than nit picking detail. That way when someone says "how many beans make five" you will be able to answer properly rather than say "phworrr chief I can do it in fountain pens but in beans that's real  tricky" 8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 08, 2015, 10:20:46 PM
No, they're going awfully badly, thanks for asking.  Amaral has made toast of the McCanns and they owe him thousands, plus he has the whole of Great Britain voting him Top Geezer of the Year Award, and they're now literally  stuffing his pockets with £50 notes.  it's a sad state of affairs and no mistake, that's why I appear so terribly fractious.

Fair enough.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 08, 2015, 10:24:53 PM
Try to think of principle dear boy rather than nit picking detail. That way when someone says "how many beans make five" you will be able to answer properly rather than say "phworrr chief I can do it in fountain pens but in beans that's real  tricky" 8(0(*
You don't do straight-forward answers to straight-forward questions do you?  Never mind, I knew it would be a difficult one to answer without resorting to riddle-me-ree vagaries as per.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 08, 2015, 10:28:18 PM
You don't do straight-forward answers to straight-forward questions do you?  Never mind, I knew it would be a difficult one to answer without resorting to riddle-me-ree vagaries as per.

 8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on May 08, 2015, 10:55:41 PM
I'm sure if anyone was told to pay half a million quid they'd appeal, so why some people object to this man's right to appeal is worrying
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 08, 2015, 10:56:57 PM
I'm sure if anyone was told to pay half a million quid they'd appeal, so why some people object to this man's right to appeal is worrying
Who is objecting?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on May 08, 2015, 10:59:39 PM
Who is objecting?

its a general impression I got from some peoples post that he shouldnt be allowed to appeal
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 08, 2015, 11:03:59 PM
its a general impression I got from some peoples post that he shouldnt be allowed to appeal

shows how wrong your general impressions are...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on May 08, 2015, 11:14:03 PM
shows how wrong your general impressions are...

I was talking to Alfred not you, are you a reincarnated jack russell who jumps up and bites every two seconds? at anyone and everything? I said it was my impression from reading. Unless you can prove me wring best to bark have a biscuit and get lost.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 08, 2015, 11:16:02 PM
I was talking to Alfred not you, are you a reincarnated jack russell who jumps up and bites every two seconds? at anyone and everything? I said it was my impression from reading. Unless you can prove me wring best to bark have a biscuit and get lost.

well your impressions wring isn't it
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on May 08, 2015, 11:22:57 PM
well your impressions wring isn't it

you missed an apostrophe dear, impression in the singular not the plural, so  you lose any right to criticise, that's all, enjoy chumping on your dog bone, bye for now :)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 08, 2015, 11:47:33 PM
its a general impression I got from some peoples post that he shouldnt be allowed to appeal
That's not my impression, my impression is that some people are questioning what his grounds for appeal will be and whether or not they will be accepted, not that he shouldn't be allowed to appeal at all.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on May 09, 2015, 01:45:51 PM
Brits raise thousands for Maddie cop’s libel appeal

(http://i.imgur.com/Cc5v4Ht.jpg?1)

Article dated 6 May 2015

(http://portugalresident.com/sites/default/files/styles/node-detail/public/field/image/080515_LU_GONÇALO_AMARAL.jpg?itok=HQAOm9nu)

After what many consider the bombshell of a judicial decision - setting record damages for a private Portuguese citizen - British supporters of former PJ inspector Gonçalo Amaral are rallying en-masse to a “gofundme” online appeal - started intriguingly by a young British woman who was only 14 when Madeleine McCann went missing.

In less than a week, 22-year-old Leanne Baulch’s appeal has raised over £9,200. British media is slating it - suggesting it is powered by “sick online trolls”, but as the Resident looks behind this fast-developing story it is becoming clear that many of these people have no ‘axe to grind’. They are simply appalled at what they see as a case of injustice.

Meantime, police in UK have decided not to go ahead with any prosecutions over the so-called “hate dossier” cataloguing “troll abuse” of the McCanns.

Read the full report in this week’s Algarve Resident newspaper, available in newsagents on Thursday.

www.portugalresident.com/brits-raise-thousands-for-maddie-cop’s-libel-appeal
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 09, 2015, 03:21:06 PM
Brits raise thousands for Maddie cop’s libel appeal

(http://i.imgur.com/Cc5v4Ht.jpg?1)

Article dated 6 May 2015

(http://portugalresident.com/sites/default/files/styles/node-detail/public/field/image/080515_LU_GONÇALO_AMARAL.jpg?itok=HQAOm9nu)

After what many consider the bombshell of a judicial decision - setting record damages for a private Portuguese citizen - British supporters of former PJ inspector Gonçalo Amaral are rallying en-masse to a “gofundme” online appeal - started intriguingly by a young British woman who was only 14 when Madeleine McCann went missing.

In less than a week, 22-year-old Leanne Baulch’s appeal has raised over £9,200. British media is slating it - suggesting it is powered by “sick online trolls”, but as the Resident looks behind this fast-developing story it is becoming clear that many of these people have no ‘axe to grind’. They are simply appalled at what they see as a case of injustice.

Meantime, police in UK have decided not to go ahead with any prosecutions over the so-called “hate dossier” cataloguing “troll abuse” of the McCanns.

Read the full report in this week’s Algarve Resident newspaper, available in newsagents on Thursday.

www.portugalresident.com/brits-raise-thousands-for-maddie-cop’s-libel-appeal

What injustice do these misguided fools think has happened. Amaral has stated as a fact that Maddie died in the apartment and her parents covered up her death. He is denying Maddie the right to justice
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 09, 2015, 03:40:59 PM
Why do you feel the need to insult anonymous doners by calling them 'misguide fools' just because have different opinions to you?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 09, 2015, 03:44:26 PM
Why do you feel the need to insult anonymous doners by calling them 'misguide fools' just because have different opinions to you?

Because I think they are misguided fools...that's my opinion. You and they support amaral's right to label the Mccanns as criminals...that's far more insulting
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 09, 2015, 03:47:39 PM
Because I think they are misguided fools...that's my opinion. You and they support amaral's right to label the Mccanns as criminals...that's far more insulting

I don't actually- I don't accept he has any right to say that and certainly not in the way he did, though he is quite entitled to think what he likes.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on May 09, 2015, 06:18:01 PM
Brits raise thousands for Maddie cop’s libel appeal

(http://i.imgur.com/Cc5v4Ht.jpg?1)

Article dated 6 May 2015

(http://portugalresident.com/sites/default/files/styles/node-detail/public/field/image/080515_LU_GONÇALO_AMARAL.jpg?itok=HQAOm9nu)

After what many consider the bombshell of a judicial decision - setting record damages for a private Portuguese citizen - British supporters of former PJ inspector Gonçalo Amaral are rallying en-masse to a “gofundme” online appeal - started intriguingly by a young British woman who was only 14 when Madeleine McCann went missing.

In less than a week, 22-year-old Leanne Baulch’s appeal has raised over £9,200. British media is slating it - suggesting it is powered by “sick online trolls”, but as the Resident looks behind this fast-developing story it is becoming clear that many of these people have no ‘axe to grind’. They are simply appalled at what they see as a case of injustice.

Meantime, police in UK have decided not to go ahead with any prosecutions over the so-called “hate dossier” cataloguing “troll abuse” of the McCanns.

Read the full report in this week’s Algarve Resident newspaper, available in newsagents on Thursday.

www.portugalresident.com/brits-raise-thousands-for-maddie-cop’s-libel-appeal

My goodness!
If his appeal costs, fund continues to have donations at the rate of contributions, as in the past week, he will be able to pay the damages awarded to the McCanns (Maddie fund) from it in no time.
And they say "Beggars cant be choosers"
How much, I wonder does he already have in his fund from his legal costs fund. Or are both funds, one?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 09, 2015, 06:24:23 PM
My goodness!
If his appeal costs, fund continues to have donations at the rate of contributions, as in the past week, he will be able to pay the damages awarded to the McCanns (Maddie fund) from it in no time.
And they say "Beggars cant be choosers"
How much, I wonder does he already have in his fund from his legal costs fund. Or are both funds, one?
[/b]

Does anyone care - other than yourself, obviously ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 09, 2015, 06:25:06 PM
My goodness!
If his appeal costs, fund continues to have donations at the rate of contributions, as in the past week, he will be able to pay the damages awarded to the McCanns (Maddie fund) from it in no time.
And they say "Beggars cant be choosers"
How much, I wonder does he already have in his fund from his legal costs fund. Or are both funds, one?

You do know that the appeal fund has not been set up to pay the damages awarded to the McCann don't you  Anna ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 09, 2015, 06:37:08 PM
Because I think they are misguided fools...that's my opinion. You and they support amaral's right to label the Mccanns as criminals...that's far more insulting

It is also possible that they believe that Amaral has a legal and moral right to appeal the courts decision, and want to make sure that he has the resources to be properly represented in that appeal.   
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 09, 2015, 06:40:47 PM
It is also possible that they believe that Amaral has a legal and moral right to appeal the courts decision, and want to make sure that he has the resources to be properly represented in that appeal.
So, if he had no money, he wouldn't be able to appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on May 09, 2015, 06:43:58 PM
You do know that the appeal fund has not been set up to pay the damages awarded to the McCann don't you  Anna ?

No idea what he has set up, Faith, but if the rate of donations continues at its present rate, he would have a lot of excess money, so where would it go?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 09, 2015, 06:44:17 PM
So, if he had no money, he wouldn't be able to appeal?

He would find it very difficult.  His assets have been frozen, and a decent lawyer to put together an appeal will be expensive.  There will also be court fees. 

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 09, 2015, 06:45:26 PM
I don't actually- I don't accept he has any right to say that and certainly not in the way he did, though he is quite entitled to think what he likes.

He is absolutely entitled to have an opinion and think what he likes ... unfortunately he didn't stick at that ... he wrote a book to advertise that personal opinion.

In doing so he broke Portuguese Law which considering his role as an enforcer of the law is bizarre.  He also disregarded the right of the McCanns to the presumption of innocence and caused them years of psychological harm and distress
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on May 09, 2015, 06:48:39 PM
[/b]

Does anyone care - other than yourself, obviously ?

No jassi, I don't care one iota, what he does with his money. I just wondered if it could go towards his appeal fund, that so many kind people are donating towards.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 09, 2015, 06:49:13 PM
No idea what he has set up, Faith, but if the rate of donations continues at its present rate, he would have a lot of excess money, so where would it go?

Firstly he has not set this up Anna, a supporter did and I understand that if there is any money left after paying Amaral's legal fees it will go to a Portuguese children's charity.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 09, 2015, 06:52:15 PM
No jassi, I don't care one iota, what he does with his money. I just wondered if it could go towards his appeal fund, that so many kind people are donating towards.

Anna, are you quite happy fr people to donate the mccanns fund:

past; present; or future.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 09, 2015, 06:52:32 PM
Firstly he has not set this up Anna, a supporter did and I understand that if there is any money left after paying Amaral's legal fees it will go to a Portuguese children's charity.

Well there we are, question answered  ?{)(**
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 09, 2015, 06:54:15 PM
He would find it very difficult.  His assets have been frozen, and a decent lawyer to put together an appeal will be expensive.  There will also be court fees.

Have we been told how the MCanns are going to justify the use of the fund to pay the 58% of the court fees the judge deemed them liable for when it has now been legally decided that the book did not harm the search ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 09, 2015, 06:55:16 PM
Have we been told how the MCanns are going to justify the use of the fund to pay the 58% of the court fees the judge deemed them liable for when it has now been legally decided that the book did not harm the search ?

Good question.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on May 09, 2015, 06:59:27 PM
Good question.

Is it just me, or are others having a problem posting on this thread? Gremlins in the works?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 09, 2015, 07:03:42 PM
Is it just me, or are others having a problem posting on this thread? Gremlins in the works?

I had problems logging on today.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on May 09, 2015, 07:14:37 PM
I had problems logging on today.

Ah! That's because I locked you out, Stephen  @)(++(*......Only joking of course.

This thread should be  Topic: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to highest Court.
We seem to have a sub topic, which is working for me to post in but I cannot answer posts on the properly headed  topic for some reason . So the people not replied to. please forgive me for not answering. I will as soon as this is sorted.
ETA
Sorted I think.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 09, 2015, 07:16:30 PM
Here's some good news for some people

http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/thank-you_6.html "astro 6:48 p.m. We can confirm that no donations to this account, that was created and is held by a group of friends seeking to help Gonçalo Amaral defend himself, can possibly be seized as assets, because Mr Amaral is not part of the account. We can also confirm that each and every cent that is spent goes to help Mr Amaral finance his defence, not to pay anyone, anywhere any compensation or damages. Thank you."

' Oh, and the Legal Defence Fund is now almost at the halfway mark - £12,435 from 768 people in 10 days, as opposed to another 'fundraiser' which has managed to creep up to £1,655.74 from 98 people over the same period (those '612,000 supporters' still haven't dug very deep have they? shocking!) '
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 09, 2015, 07:16:39 PM
Have we been told how the MCanns are going to justify the use of the fund to pay the 58% of the court fees the judge deemed them liable for when it has now been legally decided that the book did not harm the search ?
I haven't been told, perhaps you should drop them a line and ask them to justify it to you, then you could let us know?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 09, 2015, 07:17:19 PM
Ah! That's because I locked you out, Stephen  @)(++(*......Only joking of course.

This thread should be  Topic: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to highest Court.
We seem to have a sub topic, which is working for me to post in but I cannot answer posts on the properly headed  topic for some reason . So the people not replied to. please forgive me for not answering. I will as soon as this is sorted.
ETA
Sorted I think.

 8((()*/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 09, 2015, 07:20:15 PM
I haven't been told, perhaps you should drop them a line and ask them to justify it to you, then you could let us know?

Perhaps we'll be told when the annual accounts are made public..........then perhaps not !
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on May 09, 2015, 07:31:44 PM
Firstly he has not set this up Anna, a supporter did and I understand that if there is any money left after paying Amaral's legal fees it will go to a Portuguese children's charity.

Thanks faith, I didn't know that. I must have missed some of that while sick and I am still catching up. Nice to know that a children's charity might benefit too.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 09, 2015, 07:49:21 PM
It is also possible that they believe that Amaral has a legal and moral right to appeal the courts decision, and want to make sure that he has the resources to be properly represented in that appeal.

if you look at the site there are statements such as ...punished for telling the truth....amaral himself says he is in this position simply for doing his job,,......

it is those sort of lies I object to...and there are far more.. ....

many of these people believe that a cadaver dog who has never ...ever made a mistake...in 200 cases detected the scent of a corpse in the apartment...it is those lies being peddled that I object to
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on May 09, 2015, 07:53:08 PM
Anna, are you quite happy fr people to donate the mccanns fund:

past; present; or future.


How people spend or donate their money, is entirely up to them as far as I am concerned, Stephen.
Nobody tells me what I should and should not spend my money on and I have no right to judge how others spend theirs.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 09, 2015, 07:57:24 PM
He is absolutely entitled to have an opinion and think what he likes ... unfortunately he didn't stick at that ... he wrote a book to advertise that personal opinion.

In doing so he broke Portuguese Law which considering his role as an enforcer of the law is bizarre.  He also disregarded the right of the McCanns to the presumption of innocence and caused them years of psychological harm and distress

Gonçalo Amaral did not break any law. The judge only expressed her opinion that, as a retired policemen, he abused his situation and that his right to freedom of expression and opinion were limited due to the fact that he had been a public servant. That is her opinion only. He has never been sanctioned by the PJ hierarchy for any kind of abuse of his "dever de reserva". I would like to remind you that the Tribunal de Relação came to the exact opposite conclusion in its acórdão in October 2010.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 09, 2015, 08:02:04 PM
Gonçalo Amaral did not break any law. The judge only expressed her opinion that, as a retired policemen, he abused his situation and that his right to freedom of expression and opinion were limited due to the fact that he had been a public servant. That is her opinion only. He has never been sanctioned by the PJ hierarchy for any kind of abuse of his "dever de reserva". I would like to remind you that the Tribunal de Relação came to the exact opposite conclusion in its acórdão in October 2010.

The fact is that her opinion is rather important as she is judging his case and from what we have heard from Oxford she is absolutely correct
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 09, 2015, 08:05:27 PM
The fact is that her opinion is rather important as she is judging his case and from what we have heard from Oxford she is absolutely correct

Oxford's opinion.

Let's see what happens next.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 09, 2015, 08:06:37 PM
Oxford's opinion.

Let's see what happens next.

No ...the Judges opinion einstein
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 09, 2015, 08:09:41 PM
The fact is that her opinion is rather important as she is judging his case and from what we have heard from Oxford she is absolutely correct

Oh stop it!
She gave the defendants the right to appeal against her judgement as well.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 09, 2015, 08:15:35 PM
No ...the Judges opinion einstein

You really must not get angry.

As we have seen before in Portugal, judges verdicts can be overturned. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 09, 2015, 08:16:05 PM
The fact is that her opinion is rather important as she is judging his case and from what we have heard from Oxford she is absolutely correct

At the end of the day it is only an opinion which a higher court might find wanting.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 09, 2015, 08:33:00 PM
Gonçalo Amaral did not break any law. The judge only expressed her opinion that, as a retired policemen, he abused his situation and that his right to freedom of expression and opinion were limited due to the fact that he had been a public servant. That is her opinion only. He has never been sanctioned by the PJ hierarchy for any kind of abuse of his "dever de reserva". I would like to remind you that the Tribunal de Relação came to the exact opposite conclusion in its acórdão in October 2010.

OK ... so Portuguese Secrecy Laws do not apply to Mr Amaral ... thank you for that information.  What about the denial of the McCanns right to the presumption of innocence ... is that applicable only as far as they are concerned too?

The Appeal Court should be very illuminating as far as exceptions are concerned.   ?>)()<
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 09, 2015, 08:40:57 PM
At the end of the day it is only an opinion which a higher court might find wanting.

this has been a fantastic result for the McCanns...remember all the posts during the trial saying how poor the McCanns witnesses were...we all knew amaral would appeal if he lost but many on here did not expect him to be so humiliated by his own country's court
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 09, 2015, 09:31:57 PM

Now what happens if the appeal court overturns the decision ?

Mmm.

As to ruining a life, prey tell what happened to Madeleine dave ?

amaral has not been granted an appeal yet...try and keep up
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on May 09, 2015, 11:49:24 PM
At least he does what he says, appeals at every turn. The Mccanns said they would appeal to the court of human rights when the original injunction on the book was overturned. They didn't. And I've never read anything by anyone giving reasons as to why.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 10, 2015, 07:40:29 AM
The current legal position in Portugal is that Amaral has a right to appeal, and has a limited timeframe in which to do so. 

He will have to stipulate the grounds for the appeal and the legal and or factual matters that he is challenging.  The Court will then decide whether the grounds for that appeal have merit. 

If it decides they do, then the case is sent to the court of second instance (Tribunal da Relação).  If it decides the appeal is without merit then the matter ends there and the judgement of the court is enforced.

The matter may proceed to the Supreme Court, provided that the courts of first and second instance do not provide the same judgement.

The reason for this process is to avoid the higher courts becoming clogged with appeal cases. 

It is also to prevent a respondant being able to spin out an unfavourable judgement indefinitely, thereby denying justice to a rightful claimant.   

 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 10, 2015, 07:50:45 AM
The current legal position in Portugal is that Amaral has a right to appeal, and has a limited timeframe in which to do so. 

He will have to stipulate the grounds for the appeal and the legal and or factual matters that he is challenging.  The Court will then decide whether the grounds for that appeal have merit. 

If it decides they do, then the case is sent to the court of second instance (Tribunal da Relação).  If it decides the appeal is without merit then the matter ends there and the judgement of the court is enforced.

The matter may proceed to the Supreme Court, provided that the courts of first and second instance do not provide the same judgement.

The reason for this process is to avoid the higher courts becoming clogged with appeal cases. 

It is also to prevent a respondant being able to spin out an unfavourable judgement indefinitely, thereby denying justice to a rightful claimant.   

 

so at the moment there is no certainty that an second hearing...an appeal will take place...that's why I termed it amaral has leave to appeal.

I don't have a problem with amaral appealing...that's what justice is about. I do have a problem with people being fed lies..there are lies in amaral's book I believe. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 10, 2015, 07:51:58 AM
amaral has not been granted an appeal yet...try and keep up

We shall see on that.

an if the verdict is overturned, just more legal bills for the mccanns.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 10, 2015, 07:57:03 AM
We shall see on that.

an if the verdict is overturned, just more legal bills for the mccanns.

And for Amaral as legal costs are generally borne by each side.

We should know in a few weeks if he has decided to appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 10, 2015, 10:20:17 AM
The Prosecutors very clearly stated that the McCanns are not guilty of anything culpable in respect of Madeleine's disappearance.

Amaral, in the last chapter of his book, accuses the McCanns of responsibility for Madeleine's death, covering up the 'fact' of her death and simulating 'abduction'

That is why the admirable judge Maria Emilia de Melo e Castro passed down the judgment she did.

Untrue.   What the prosecutors in fact stated was that there was no evidence of guilt.  A very big difference.

They also stated that due to the actions of their tapas pals the McCann lost the opportunity to establish their innocence.

Everything is still very much on the table imo, Amaral's thesis is still as valid as any other and until such time as that changes there will always be suspicions and doubts.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 10, 2015, 10:24:33 AM
Untrue.   What the prosecutors in fact stated was that there was no evidence of guilt.  A very big difference.

They also stated that due to the actions of their tapas pals the McCann lost the opportunity to establish their innocence.


Can you explain exactly how the three categories of "Not Guilty" "Guilty" and "Innocent" are defined.

Are they defined differently from different standpoints- legal, moral, social.

What exactly do the words mean?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 10, 2015, 10:27:28 AM

Can you explain exactly how the three categories of "Not Guilty" "Guilty" and "Innocent" are defined.

Are they defined differently from different standpoints- legal, moral, social.

What exactly do the words mean?

Sorry, I ain't playing your game.  In Law they are innocent until proven guilty, in reality all bets are off!!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 10, 2015, 10:30:45 AM
And for Amaral as legal costs are generally borne by each side.

We should know in a few weeks if he has decided to appeal.

Amaral has his fund.

Now the judge has decided that Amaral's book has done no harm to the search and did not damage the children what justification will the McCanns now have for using the fund for further Portuguese litigation ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 10, 2015, 10:31:56 AM
Thank you to the maddiecasefiles for the translation of this article.


Gonçalo Amaral
English supporter creates solidarity fund

Brits support the ex-inspector

In 3 days, though the social network, €7,000 have already been raised for his defense

Sentenced by the civil court to pay € 500,000 to Madeleine McCann's parents, for damages caused by the publication of the book Maddie: A Verdade da Mentira, the ex-inspector Gonçalo Amaral is going to appeal the decision to a higher court. However, due to the enormous court costs in Portugal, and the fact that Gonçalo Amaral does not have the financial structure to prolong the legal battles, sites have been created on the social network, supporting him morally and that, in three days, have been able to raise more than € 7,000.

The idea came from a young woman, 22 years old, from Birmingham, UK, when she found out that Amaral had to pay the McCann couple a half a million Euros. As well as receiving donations, the page is also open to comments of support to the ex-inspector. It is certain that the English do not want Gonçalo Amaral to give up defending himself in the courts. "Don't give up the search for justice and truth. You are an honourable man who was seriously hurt. I don't know what is happening in this case, but someone is lying," writes a supporter Jill Parkin, after having made a donation. Other than this, despite the fact that there are many English who support Amaral, others put him down, as was the case with the newspaper The Sun, who, with regard to this help, suggests that Gonçalo is being financed "by British trolls". Those who did not like this were the followers of the site who declared:" The Sun is a shame, they only give the version of Maddie's parents." Even adding: "Keep on fighting GA, Madeleine deserves that justice be done".

Caption of photo: Keep on fighting The British supporters of Gonçalo Amaral do not want the ex-inspector to give up. "Madeleine deserves that justice be done"
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 10, 2015, 10:50:59 AM
Thank you to the maddiecasefiles for the translation of this article.


Gonçalo Amaral
English supporter creates solidarity fund

Brits support the ex-inspector

In 3 days, though the social network, €7,000 have already been raised for his defense

Sentenced by the civil court to pay € 500,000 to Madeleine McCann's parents, for damages caused by the publication of the book Maddie: A Verdade da Mentira, the ex-inspector Gonçalo Amaral is going to appeal the decision to a higher court. However, due to the enormous court costs in Portugal, and the fact that Gonçalo Amaral does not have the financial structure to prolong the legal battles, sites have been created on the social network, supporting him morally and that, in three days, have been able to raise more than € 7,000.

The idea came from a young woman, 22 years old, from Birmingham, UK, when she found out that Amaral had to pay the McCann couple a half a million Euros. As well as receiving donations, the page is also open to comments of support to the ex-inspector. It is certain that the English do not want Gonçalo Amaral to give up defending himself in the courts. "Don't give up the search for justice and truth. You are an honourable man who was seriously hurt. I don't know what is happening in this case, but someone is lying," writes a supporter Jill Parkin, after having made a donation. Other than this, despite the fact that there are many English who support Amaral, others put him down, as was the case with the newspaper The Sun, who, with regard to this help, suggests that Gonçalo is being financed "by British trolls". Those who did not like this were the followers of the site who declared:" The Sun is a shame, they only give the version of Maddie's parents." Even adding: "Keep on fighting GA, Madeleine deserves that justice be done".

Caption of photo: Keep on fighting The British supporters of Gonçalo Amaral do not want the ex-inspector to give up. "Madeleine deserves that justice be done"

The McCanns must be furious that well meaning folks are very prepared to fork out their hard earned cash to support a man who considers them guilty.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 10, 2015, 10:53:52 AM
The McCanns must be furious that well meaning folks are very prepared to fork out their hard earned cash to support a man who considers them guilty.

Indeed Angelo.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 10, 2015, 11:02:17 AM
The McCanns must be furious that well meaning folks are very prepared to fork out their hard earned cash to support a man who considers them guilty.
The McCanns must be furious that well meaning folks are very prepared to fork out their hard earned cash to support a man who considers them guilty, despite the complete absence of any evidence of their guilt.  Well yes, I'd be furious too, bemused, saddened, disgusted, resigned to the fact that there's really nowt so queer as folk.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on May 10, 2015, 11:16:08 AM
Can we stay on topic please.  Posts referring to the Madeleine Fund and other issues removed.  TY
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 10, 2015, 11:24:56 AM
The McCanns must be furious that well meaning folks are very prepared to fork out their hard earned cash to support a man who considers them guilty, despite the complete absence of any evidence of their guilt.  Well yes, I'd be furious too, bemused, saddened, disgusted, resigned to the fact that there's really nowt so queer as folk.

Evidence and proof are two different things you know.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 10, 2015, 11:41:27 AM
Back on topic.   Amaral is right to appeal the decision, the sum awarded was ridiculous.  I have no doubt the appeal court will agree.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 10, 2015, 11:46:19 AM
Back on topic.   Amaral is right to appeal the decision, the sum awarded was ridiculous.  I have no doubt the appeal court will agree.
You had no doubt that the McCanns would fail in their court action against Amaral, I expect I will recieve another warning for reminding you how little your predictions are worth!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 10, 2015, 11:51:23 AM
Back on topic.   Amaral is right to appeal the decision, the sum awarded was ridiculous.  I have no doubt the appeal court will agree.

The reasoning behind why that amount was decided is laid out in very specific detail in the Judgement. Did you read the reasoning? What part of the reasoning do you disagree with? What are the grounds of your disagreement?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 10, 2015, 11:52:26 AM
You had no doubt that the McCanns would fail in their court action against Amaral, I expect I will recieve another warning for reminding you how little your predictions are worth!

Tell me alfred why the mccanns should be paid any money at all.

This whole situation is a result of what they failed to do in Portugal.

i.e.Look after their children as good parents would.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 10, 2015, 11:54:08 AM
You had no doubt that the McCanns would fail in their court action against Amaral, I expect I will recieve another warning for reminding you how little your predictions are worth!

Clearly they did fail.  The claim was halved, the claim on behalf of the twins and Madeleine kicked out with the judge ruling that the book did not damage the search.  My prediction was spot on!

I will now predict the appeal court will reduce the award or even quash it entirely.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 10, 2015, 11:55:43 AM
The reasoning behind why that amount was decided is laid out in very specific detail in the Judgement. Did you read the reasoning? What part of the reasoning do you disagree with? What are the grounds of your disagreement?

The judge erred imo.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 10, 2015, 11:57:13 AM
Tell me alfred why the mccanns should be paid any money at all.

This whole situation is a result of what they failed to do in Portugal.

i.e.Look after their children as good parents would.

The McCanns were not being judged on their childcare. Amaral was being judged on his actions. The McCanns have not been found to have committed any crime or tort. Amaral has been found to have done both.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 10, 2015, 11:58:38 AM
The judge erred imo.

Did you read the judgement? Do you think the earnings or returns from the book were the major factor?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 10, 2015, 12:01:48 PM
The McCanns were not being judged on their childcare. Amaral was being judged on his actions. The McCanns have not been found to have committed any crime or tort. Amaral has been found to have done both.

This whole case rests on what the mccanns did not do.

Meanwhile has Amaral's thesis of accidental death been disproved ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 10, 2015, 12:04:37 PM
This whole case rests on what the mccanns did not do.

Meanwhile has Amaral's thesis of accidental death been disproved ?

Police guesswork does not make law.

The case rests on whether or not Amaral was a total part in misusing privileged information and going against his oath as a law officer.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 10, 2015, 12:05:07 PM
Right or wrongly, the judge has made her decision. It is the option of a higher court to over rule it if they see fit.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 10, 2015, 12:06:56 PM
Back on topic.   Amaral is right to appeal the decision, the sum awarded was ridiculous.  I have no doubt the appeal court will agree.

The appeal court can consider and appeal based on a challenge to proven facts or matters of law.  One cannot simply appeal because one does not like the judgement.

It would interesting to hear your views on proven facts.  Which ones are possibly in dispute?

As to matters of law, in lay terms the judge associated the level of damages with Amaral's earnings from the book and docu drama.  This is based on the principle of the guilty party not benefitting from an unlawful act.  So in what way do you think the judge erred?   

Are there any other points of law, in your opinion, may be challenged?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 10, 2015, 12:08:00 PM
Police guesswork does not make law.

The case rests on whether or not Amaral was a total part in misusing privileged information and going against his oath as a law officer.

That was the judges opinion.

On appeal as we have seen in Portugal, a different interpretation could apply.

Can you tell me of any comparable case in history where parents who have neglected their children have received financial reward  ?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 10, 2015, 12:08:42 PM
This whole case rests on what the mccanns did not do.

Meanwhile has Amaral's thesis of accidental death been disproved ?

Irrelevant Stephen, as you well know.  Amaral cannot base his case on a supposition that the McCanns may or may not have committed a crime. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 10, 2015, 12:08:48 PM
Right or wrongly, the judge has made her decision. It is the option of a higher court to over rule it if they see fit.

Agreed. But assuming that it will is unjustified. It could go either way. Maybe the McCanns will appeal on the points that their claim was rebutted?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 10, 2015, 12:13:16 PM
That was the judges opinion.CAN YOU

On appeal as we have seen in Portugal, a different interpretation could apply.

Can you tell me of any comparable case in history where parents who have neglected their children have received financial reward  ?

The McCanns have not been found guilty of neglect in any country. Their previous history does not alter their right to sue or receive damages. Even if they had been found guilty, they could still have the right to sue.

It is called democracy and equality under the law. Human rights you know.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 10, 2015, 12:14:26 PM
Irrelevant Stephen, as you well know.  Amaral cannot base his case on a supposition that the McCanns may or may not have committed a crime.

A key point remains.

Until the cause of Madeleine's disappearance is determined, as others have commented, how could this case proceed ?

What would happen if it was eventually found that Madeleine did die in the apartment ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 10, 2015, 12:16:26 PM
A key point remains.

Until the cause of Madeleine's disappearance is determined, as others have commented, how could this case proceed ?

What would happen if it was eventually found that Madeleine did die in the apartment ?

Even if she died there, Amaral still broke his oath and misused information that was privileged. Damage to the McCanns still occurred.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 10, 2015, 12:25:50 PM
Even if she died there, Amaral still broke his oath and misused information that was privileged. Damage to the McCanns still occurred.


The damage was self inflicted.

It was not just Amaral's belief that accidental death occurred.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 10, 2015, 12:27:50 PM

The damage was self inflicted.

It was not just Amaral's belief that accidental death occurred.

The damage was inflicted purely by Amaral's behaviour. It does not matter who believed what.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 10, 2015, 12:40:26 PM
The damage was inflicted purely by Amaral's behaviour. It does not matter who believed what.

That is your subjective opinion.


Amaral's theory was already known and held by others, and continues to be so.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 10, 2015, 12:43:10 PM
Agreed. But assuming that it will is unjustified. It could go either way. Maybe the McCanns will appeal on the points that their claim was rebutted?

Will they have that option, or is appeal only for the loser?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 10, 2015, 12:43:24 PM
That is your subjective opinion.


Amaral's theory was already known and held by others, and continues to be so.
Damages were awarded in court were they not?  so what was the damage caused by, in your opinion?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 10, 2015, 12:51:31 PM
Damages were awarded in court were they not?  so what was the damage caused by, in your opinion?

On that judges subjective interpretation of the law.

The fact remains, if the mccanns had not left their childrenn unattended, none of this would have happened.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 10, 2015, 12:52:42 PM
That is your subjective opinion.


Amaral's theory was already known and held by others, and continues to be so.


It is not my subjective opinion, but the judgement of the court.

Even if Amaral's theory was true, it would not affect his unlawful behaviour towards the McCanns by breaking confidence and failing in his oath of office - the actions for which damages were awarded.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 10, 2015, 12:53:22 PM
Seems that the supporters are happy that damages were awarded because GA had insider knowledge of the case in writing his book.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 10, 2015, 12:54:10 PM
On that judges subjective interpretation of the law.

The fact remains, if the mccanns had not left their childrenn unattended, none of this would have happened.

Do you believe that all judgements are subjective, or only those that conflict with your belief system?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 10, 2015, 12:54:46 PM

It is not my subjective opinion, but the judgement of the court.

Even if Amaral's theory was true, it would not affect his unlawful behaviour towards the McCanns by breaking confidence and failing in his oath of office - the actions for which damages were awarded.

The key thing remains.

The book was released after he left office.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 10, 2015, 12:56:52 PM
Seems that the supporters are happy that damages were awarded because GA had insider knowledge of the case in writing his book.

And us Independents as well!

But it was also for ignoring his responsibilities as an officer of the law.

The Judgement explains exactly what Amaral did wrong that resulted in him being found liable and being required to pay damages to counter his behaviour.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 10, 2015, 12:58:16 PM
The key thing remains.

The book was released after he left office.

But as the judge said, obviously written before and obviously relying on privileged facts and obviously against Amaral's duty to uphold the law.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 10, 2015, 01:02:56 PM
On that judges subjective interpretation of the law.

The fact remains, if the mccanns had not left their childrenn unattended, none of this would have happened.
Damage to the McCanns was caused by the judge's interpretation of the law?!   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 10, 2015, 01:20:21 PM
Damage to the McCanns was caused by the judge's interpretation of the law?!   @)(++(*

Hardly.

The mccanns damaged themselves and nothing you or your fellow mccann backers will ever change that truth.

The case starts and rests with them, as it always has.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 10, 2015, 01:27:12 PM
The judge found that the McCanns had been damaged to the extent of half a million Euros.

For the time being I will accept the Judges verdict over some non entity on a tiny forum.

Who is likely to know Portuguese civil law the best?

My money is on the Judge.

Just one judge.

One judges view.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 10, 2015, 01:28:24 PM
Just one judge.

One judges view.

But who is likely to know Portuguese law better, you or a Portuguese judge?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 10, 2015, 01:40:47 PM
But who is likely to know Portuguese law better, you or a Portuguese judge?

Let's see what another judge(s) decide.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 10, 2015, 01:42:10 PM
Let's see what another judge(s) decide.

Agreed. Meantime the best guide is the view of an expert on Portuguese law and neither you nor me.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: colombosstogey on May 10, 2015, 01:46:42 PM
Well its done for now, and there will be an appeal and so it goes on but still the child is missing. Soon the twins will be old enough to read all this for themselves and Amarals book can be downloaded for all to read.

It just goes on and on. I wish all the energy had been spent on finding the child rather then taking someone to court for years. I suppose it depends on peoples priorities.

Amaral has a good chance of winning an appeal and no money will be handed over until its all sorted out.  So really who are the winners in this sorry affair, the loser is the child sadly no 3 children, 2 of whom lost their sister, lucky for them they were not all taken away.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 10, 2015, 01:50:02 PM
The McCanns have not been found guilty of neglect in any country. Their previous history does not alter their right to sue or receive damages. Even if they had been found guilty, they could still have the right to sue.

It is called democracy and equality under the law. Human rights you know.

Don't be ridiculous Oxford, neglect was the least of their worries.  Had the PJ decided it was wilful or intentional instead of sheer stupidity they would have been prosecuted.  Do you think Social Services intervene for fun?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: colombosstogey on May 10, 2015, 01:53:20 PM
Don't be ridiculous Oxford, neglect was the least of their worries.  Had the PJ decided it was wilful or intentional instead of sheer stupidity they would have been prosecuted.  Do you think Social Services intervene for fun?

Funny enough since this happened a couple were arrested were they not in Portugal for drinking in front of the kids. I think they should have been arrested personally as a child was harmed by their neglect no matter how people keep swinging it around.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 10, 2015, 01:55:04 PM

It is not my subjective opinion, but the judgement of the court.

Even if Amaral's theory was true, it would not affect his unlawful behaviour towards the McCanns by breaking confidence and failing in his oath of office - the actions for which damages were awarded.

If it was found that they were involved all civil awards would be reversed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: OxfordBloo on May 10, 2015, 02:02:35 PM
If it was found that they were involved all civil awards would be reversed.

In your opinion. Cite?

Even prisoners are allowed to sue for damages.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 10, 2015, 02:27:40 PM
In your opinion. Cite?

Even prisoners are allowed to sue for damages.

Completely irrelevant. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 10, 2015, 03:22:59 PM
Hardly.

The mccanns damaged themselves and nothing you or your fellow mccann backers will ever change that truth.

The case starts and rests with them, as it always has.
If the McCanns damaged themselves then why were damages awarded to them and against Amaral?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on May 10, 2015, 03:59:14 PM
If the McCanns damaged themselves then why were damages awarded to them and against Amaral?

I think the judge did try to dispense justice according to the Law prevailing in Portugal.  In the end she took the least controversial route by awarding the McCanns damages in full (€250k to each parent) but throwing out the children's claim.  She had no choice but to ban the book and DVD.

My own view is that there is some room for an appeal court to reduce the award but little else.

What Amaral does next will be interesting for so many reasons.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 10, 2015, 04:05:03 PM
I think the judge did try to dispense justice according to the Law prevailing in Portugal.  In the end she took the least controversial route by awarding the McCanns damages in full (€250k to each parent) but throwing out the children's claim.  She had no choice but to ban the book and DVD.

My own view is that there is some room for an appeal court to reduce the award but little else.

What Amaral does next will be interesting for so many reasons.

amaral has no choice but to appeal
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 10, 2015, 04:21:47 PM
I think the judge did try to dispense justice according to the Law prevailing in Portugal.  In the end she took the least controversial route by awarding the McCanns damages in full (€250k to each parent) but throwing out the children's claim.  She had no choice but to ban the book and DVD.

My own view is that there is some room for an appeal court to reduce the award but little else.

What Amaral does next will be interesting for so many reasons.

I agree with the statement in bold.  Do you believe that the judgment awarding the McCanns unprecedented damages and the banning of the book and DVD was a failure for them, as claimed by Angelo on this thread?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 10, 2015, 05:43:26 PM

It is not my subjective opinion, but the judgement of the court.

Even if Amaral's theory was true, it would not affect his unlawful behaviour towards the McCanns by breaking confidence and failing in his oath of office - the actions for which damages were awarded.

Where is his behaviour unlawful? Only in the judge's opinion. Tell me, if his behaviour was unlawful and he failed his position as a PJ officer, how come he was never bothered by the PJ hierarchy?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 10, 2015, 05:49:55 PM
Where is his behaviour unlawful? Only in the judge's opinion. Tell me, if his behaviour was unlawful and he failed his position as a PJ officer, how come he was never bothered by the PJ hierarchy?
LOL at "only the judge's opinion".  Do you not respect the judicial process then?  If the McCanns had been found guilty of an offence it would only have been the judge's opinion right?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on May 10, 2015, 08:47:24 PM
Always remembering that a judges decision in a lower or appeal court is not set in stone and until it is finally determined we cannot be sure how this will all fathom out.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on May 10, 2015, 08:49:54 PM
I agree with the statement in bold.  Do you believe that the judgment awarding the McCanns unprecedented damages and the banning of the book and DVD was a failure for them, as claimed by Angelo on this thread?

It was by no means a failure Alfred but in some ways it must be disappointing too to a certain extent given the judges comments.

Translated judgement (http://www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6307.msg239337#msg239337)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 10, 2015, 11:49:58 PM
It was by no means a failure Alfred but in some ways it must be disappointing too to a certain extent given the judges comments.

Translated judgement (http://www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6307.msg239337#msg239337)
Anyndisappointment you perceive to be felt by the McCanns is but a fraction of that felt by the loser of this court battle, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on May 11, 2015, 01:07:43 AM
I would suggest that as well as appealing this judgement, Mr A should apply even greater effort to improving his theory. Winning the case will in itself not acheive the right of the child to complete truth and justice, which is what Mr  A has since the beginning fought for. It is essential IMO to proceed on the basis that, if the current theory has not fully solved the case (to conviction), then it is likely that the current theory has an elementary conceptual flaw, so elementary that it is easy to not see it. I suggest he reappraises his theory by asking: "is there one very basic assumption made which is in contradiction to statistics of similar cases". JIMO
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on May 11, 2015, 01:40:20 AM
I would suggest that as well as appealing this judgement, Mr A should apply even greater effort to improving his theory. Winning the case will in itself not acheive the right of the child to complete truth and justice, which is what Mr  A has since the beginning fought for. It is essential IMO to proceed on the basis that, if the current theory has not fully solved the case (to conviction), then it is likely that the current theory has an elementary conceptual flaw, so elementary that it is easy to not see it. I suggest he reappraises his theory by asking: "is there one very basic assumption made which is in contradiction to statistics of similar cases". JIMO

Have I read that right?  Are you saying that Inspector Amaral didn't quite get it right on the first occasion, but he might do so if he has another crack at it?

But after nearly eight years he should really have done so by now.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on May 11, 2015, 01:50:09 AM
Have I read that right?  Are you saying that Inspector Amaral didn't quite get it right on the first occasion, but he might do so if he has another crack at it?
Possibly, yes.
But after nearly eight years he should really have done so by now.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on May 11, 2015, 02:12:03 AM
Possibly, yes.

But only possibly?

How many cracks do you think he should get at it?  How many more times do you think he should be allowed to try to decimate The McCanns?

And now I am going to apologise to you because you have never been really unpleasant, and you do not deserve that I should be so unpleasant to you.

It's just been a bad day.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on May 11, 2015, 03:03:28 AM
But only possibly?

How many cracks do you think he should get at it?  How many more times do you think he should be allowed to try to decimate The McCanns?

And now I am going to apologise to you because you have never been really unpleasant, and you do not deserve that I should be so unpleasant to you.

It's just been a bad day.
The PI commercial outfits (Control Risks, Metodo3, Alpha, etc), who were paid in total possibly over a £million by rich backers, have failed to crack the case after 8 years. Also SY having spent several £million have not cracked it. Mr A gets no money from rich backers. However I am suggesting that he tries to succeed where the generously-paid commercial businesses and their rich backers have failed.  IMO his theory is flawed in one respect at its core, and also has many finer details wrong, however if rigidity is dismissed and the theory improved it might succeed where the heavily-paid PI businesses have failed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on May 11, 2015, 04:00:08 AM

Pegasus.  The Winged Horse.  It was never the place of The McCanns to prove their innocence.  Or for any of whoever might have been employed by whoever to so so either.  Although I would say that they were looking for their daughter rather than trying to prove their innocence.

You say that Goncalo Amaral failed at the core, and in certain other respects.  So if he has failed in so many ways what gave him the right to inflict even more pain on them?  When even you have doubts about his ideas.

I have now gotten beyond him and his theories.  And anyone else on this Forum. I do the best that I can for both sides. 

But just for tonight I am a bit distressed about the blatant unkindness.

The ultimate conclusion of The Trial, for whatever purpose that might serve, is of no consequence to me.  And if I am ever proved to be wrong about my trust in The McCanns then I will have lost nothing.  I will never have lost me or my inherent kindness.

I would like to say that Goncalo Amaral has no grounds for Appeal.  But I ain't that daft.  Portuguese Law is still a bit beyond me.  In fact, at a push, I could probably come up with a reason for why he should Appeal.
Can you give me a couple of hours while I think about it?  This will probably be the most ridiculous thing that I have ever done.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2015, 07:29:03 AM
Do none of you remember the comments only a couple of months ago by amaral suggesting he had been successful in the trial. The verdict is  a massive victory for the McCanns...amaral must be devastated. Who knows what will happen next...amaral may be refused an appeal...we don't know
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2015, 07:47:22 AM
Clearly they did fail.  The claim was halved, the claim on behalf of the twins and Madeleine kicked out with the judge ruling that the book did not damage the search.  My prediction was spot on!

I will now predict the appeal court will reduce the award or even quash it entirely.


You didn't get it spot on...my post in red and your reply in blue...I was right and you were wrong


Quote from: davel on January 22, 2015, 06:59:07 PM

I agree the mccanns won't get 1.2 million...but they will get damages




Cant see it myself.  She poo poo'd all their main claims. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on May 11, 2015, 07:49:55 AM
I would suggest that as well as appealing this judgement, Mr A should apply even greater effort to improving his theory. Winning the case will in itself not acheive the right of the child to complete truth and justice, which is what Mr  A has since the beginning fought for. It is essential IMO to proceed on the basis that, if the current theory has not fully solved the case (to conviction), then it is likely that the current theory has an elementary conceptual flaw, so elementary that it is easy to not see it. I suggest he reappraises his theory by asking: "is there one very basic assumption made which is in contradiction to statistics of similar cases". JIMO

Apparently he has already applied even greater effort.    Amarals latest theory is that Madeleine had been buried in a coffin alongside a dead woman in a church in the resort of Praia da Luz.    Unsurprisingly  - he offers no evidence to support this 'theory'.     

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 11, 2015, 08:04:50 AM
Do none of you remember the comments only a couple of months ago by amaral suggesting he had been successful in the trial. The verdict is  a massive victory for the McCanns...amaral must be devastated. Who knows what will happen next...amaral may be refused an appeal...we don't know


I think you'll find he was cautiously optimistic and with good reason imo. Most of the points were not proved. It wasn't a massive victory because only two-fifths of the claim was successful. The McCanns know that but still mislead people when they said the action was about libeling the children and harming the search for Madeleine. It may well have been, but that's not what the award was for.

I don't know much about law  but the judgement seems to struggle a bit. The judge appears not to find the book damaging in itself, so a normal person writing it would not have had to pay anything. In order to justify the award she had to do what look like mental gymnastics to me. She alleges that he used knowledge gained as coordinator of the investigation which he should have kept secret. At the moment of publication, however, the files were public, even if only three days had passed, so at that moment he wasn't bound by secrecy. On the 'presumption of innocence' ruling the law mentions suspects. At the moment of publication the McCanns weren't suspects and Amaral wasn't involved in the Judicial process against them, so, again, a bit of a stretch perhaps?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 11, 2015, 08:06:24 AM
Do none of you remember the comments only a couple of months ago by amaral suggesting he had been successful in the trial. The verdict is  a massive victory for the McCanns...amaral must be devastated. Who knows what will happen next...amaral may be refused an appeal...we don't know
Believe it or not they are still saying that the result was a terrible failure for the McCanns and Amaral will be victorious on appeal...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2015, 08:08:11 AM
EXCLUSIVE: ‘McCanns will lose £1m libel trial’ Judge’s initial findings go against couple

The former Portuguese detective locked in a libel battle with Kate and Gerry McCann is confident of winning the case after a judge accepted some of his arguments.


This is what amaral was saying only a few months ago
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 11, 2015, 08:09:28 AM
The PI commercial outfits (Control Risks, Metodo3, Alpha, etc), who were paid in total possibly over a £million by rich backers, have failed to crack the case after 8 years. Also SY having spent several £million have not cracked it. Mr A gets no money from rich backers. However I am suggesting that he tries to succeed where the generously-paid commercial businesses and their rich backers have failed.  IMO his theory is flawed in one respect at its core, and also has many finer details wrong, however if rigidity is dismissed and the theory improved it might succeed where the heavily-paid PI businesses have failed.
Yes the one flaw at the core of Amaral's theory is that the McCanns were not involved in hiding their child's body.  In all other respects it's spot on!  8((()*/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 11, 2015, 10:32:47 AM
Believe it or not they are still saying that the result was a terrible failure for the McCanns and Amaral will be victorious on appeal...

With the best will in the world, with the plaintiffs having about 700k of their claim deffed out and one defendant being stuffed for Euros 500k, I don't see how either of those parties can spin it as a major victory, I would have thought it more like a score draw going into extra time. The winners were the publishers and TV company as they were let off.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2015, 10:46:13 AM
With the best will in the world, with the plaintiffs having about 700k of their claim deffed out and one defendant being stuffed for Euros 500k, I don't see how either of those parties can spin it as a major victory, I would have thought it more like a score draw going into extra time. The winners were the publishers and TV company as they were let off.

Then you think the Judge was even handed in her Judgement?

Perhaps that knocks another brick out of the wall for Mr Amaral's basis to appeal it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 11, 2015, 10:52:03 AM
I can't see that that could have any influence on the basis of appeal, though it might very well influence his chances of winning.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2015, 10:52:17 AM
With the best will in the world, with the plaintiffs having about 700k of their claim deffed out and one defendant being stuffed for Euros 500k, I don't see how either of those parties can spin it as a major victory, I would have thought it more like a score draw going into extra time. The winners were the publishers and TV company as they were let off.

so you think both sides came out fairly even.......you are extremely deluded...

amaral to pay 500,000......the mccanns to receive 500,00    and you think that's fairly even
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 10:55:41 AM
so you think both sides came out fairly even.......you are extremely deluded...

amaral to pay 500,000......the mccanns to receive 500,00    and you think that's fairly even


and the mccanns have received precisely nothing in their bank account.

Nice.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2015, 11:05:48 AM

and the mccanns have received precisely nothing in their bank account.

Nice.

Sigh ... the award will never go near their bank account ...  @)(++(* ... it will go directly into Madeleine's Fund.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2015, 11:30:48 AM

and the mccanns have received precisely nothing in their bank account.

Nice.

they have received a favourable judgement and amaral has been humiliated..nicer
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 11, 2015, 11:47:01 AM
so you think both sides came out fairly even.......you are extremely deluded...

amaral to pay 500,000......the mccanns to receive 500,00    and you think that's fairly even

That is one way of looking at it I suppose.
I incline to the view that a smart person will look at the objectives of the writ and what the end result was vis a vis those objectives.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 11, 2015, 11:48:13 AM
Then you think the Judge was even handed in her Judgement?

Perhaps that knocks another brick out of the wall for Mr Amaral's basis to appeal it?
I don't think I said that at all. I believe furthermore that you realise I didn't.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on May 11, 2015, 11:49:22 AM
Sigh ... the award will never go near their bank account ...  @)(++(* ... it will go directly into Madeleine's Fund.

Exactly Brietta,   Kate said it wasn't because of the money.    The money would go into the fund.   Why do people keep thinking that the McCann's are having the money for themselves.

It is AMARAL who wants the money for himself.   To no doubt buy another flashy car,  earring and flaunt and preen himself in front of the women.

They keep going on the McCann's loved being in the lime light treated as celebrities,  but from what I have read it was AMARAL who enjoyed that life style.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2015, 12:45:11 PM
I don't think I said that at all. I believe furthermore that you realise I didn't.

I think you did ... and I have posted accordingly.

Perhaps it would be an idea to make more concise posts which are not subject to misinterpretation of your actual meaning.
If you reread your original post you will see that I am perfectly correct to equate your "score draw" without having to resort to misrepresentation.

Interestingly Davel appears to have given your post a similar interpretation to my own. 

So please refrain from impugning my integrity.

My original answer to you concerned what would perhaps be the grounds Mr Amaral's lawyers would present to the Appeal Court to justify lawful avenues concerning his ability to have an appeal allowed ... I note you have not bothered to discuss that as opposed to deflecting to the trivia of arguing you did not say what you did.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on May 11, 2015, 01:00:06 PM
Pegasus.  The Winged Horse. 
It was never the place of The McCanns to prove their innocence.  Or for any of whoever might have been employed by whoever to so so either.  Although I would say that they were looking for their daughter rather than trying to prove their innocence.

You say that Goncalo Amaral failed at the core, and in certain other respects.  So if he has failed in so many ways what gave him the right to inflict even more pain on them?  When even you have doubts about his ideas.

I have now gotten beyond him and his theories.  And anyone else on this Forum. I do the best that I can for both sides. 

But just for tonight I am a bit distressed about the blatant unkindness.

The ultimate conclusion of The Trial, for whatever purpose that might serve, is of no consequence to me.  And if I am ever proved to be wrong about my trust in The McCanns then I will have lost nothing.  I will never have lost me or my inherent kindness.
[/glow]
-snip-

The Voice of humanity.  Well spoken Eleanor

 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
 

My feelings exactly altho I do feel that the results of the trial are very important.

I actually feel sorry for Amaral.  Has he had huge pressures put on him by the group/Organisation?


But he should have known better and behaved properly IMO.


I dont want to see him lose his everything, but a little [Name removed] bird tells me that some ridiculously rich people will bail him out financially at the end of ALL the Court cases. 


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2015, 01:23:32 PM
That is one way of looking at it I suppose.
I incline to the view that a smart person will look at the objectives of the writ and what the end result was vis a vis those objectives.

a smart person has
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 11, 2015, 01:30:14 PM
a smart person has


Is this one of your self-assessments?  8(>((
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 01:35:05 PM
Sigh ... the award will never go near their bank account ...  @)(++(* ... it will go directly into Madeleine's Fund.

Into the irrelevant fund, which they have access to at any time ?  %£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**#


Actually, of course they could never receive any money at all. 8)--))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 01:36:25 PM
they have received a favourable judgement and amaral has been humiliated..nicer


So dave, when will they get the money ? 8)-)))

and for the mccanns, that's what it's all about.

 8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2015, 01:54:54 PM
Into the irrelevant fund, which they have access to at any time ?  %£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**#


Actually, of course they could never receive any money at all. 8)--))

Always a bit of a mystery to me why everyone's focus isn't on the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance as "justice" for her is the banner under which many choose to attack the fund set up for her benefit.

I think the significance on public opinion of the recent judgement has been missed (or maybe not) concerning the award granted by a Portuguese Judge which appears to me to have been delivered solely on points of Portuguese Law, other aspects of the claim eg the effect on the children having been dismissed.

Therefore I wonder what basis there will be for an appeal as I think the Judge has elucidated the reasoning behind her judgement as points of law which have been flouted ... I think that is probably bomb proof with only perhaps the amount of the award being open to challenge ... even that I think may not be accepted as it was based on the amount made from Mr Amaral's book.

Conversely if the Judgement does go to appeal ... it means Mr Amaral's funds being tied up for some time ... and the result of the appeal may be an increase in the amount awarded.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 01:56:59 PM
Always a bit of a mystery to me why everyone's focus isn't on the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance as "justice" for her is the banner under which many choose to attack the fund set up for her benefit.

I think the significance on public opinion of the recent judgement has been missed (or maybe not) concerning the award granted by a Portuguese Judge which appears to me to have been delivered solely on points of Portuguese Law, other aspects of the claim eg the effect on the children having been dismissed.

Therefore I wonder what basis there will be for an appeal as I think the Judge has elucidated the reasoning behind her judgement as points of law which have been flouted ... I think that is probably bomb proof with only perhaps the amount of the award being open to challenge ... even that I think may not be accepted as it was based on the amount made from Mr Amaral's book.

Conversely if the Judgement does go to appeal ... it means Mr Amaral's funds being tied up for some time ... and the result of the appeal may be an increase in the amount awarded.

In your dreams.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 11, 2015, 02:00:49 PM
Always a bit of a mystery to me why everyone's focus isn't on the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance as "justice" for her is the banner under which many choose to attack the fund set up for her benefit.

I think the significance on public opinion of the recent judgement has been missed (or maybe not) concerning the award granted by a Portuguese Judge which appears to me to have been delivered solely on points of Portuguese Law, other aspects of the claim eg the effect on the children having been dismissed.

Therefore I wonder what basis there will be for an appeal as I think the Judge has elucidated the reasoning behind her judgement as points of law which have been flouted ... I think that is probably bomb proof with only perhaps the amount of the award being open to challenge ... even that I think may not be accepted as it was based on the amount made from Mr Amaral's book.

Conversely if the Judgement does go to appeal ... it means Mr Amaral's funds being tied up for some time ... and the result of the appeal may be an increase in the amount awarded.

Why bother wondering?  Why not just leave it the court to sort out, as indeed they will.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2015, 02:02:45 PM
In your dreams.

How will Mr Amaral's lawyer argue the judgement that he denied Madeleine McCann's parents their right to the presumption of innocence ... and what evidence will he present to argue that the Judge's ruling was wrong?

An appeal has to have some basis.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2015, 02:07:11 PM
Why bother wondering?  Why not just leave it the court to sort out, as indeed they will.

Not interested in discussing Mr Amaral's appeal on a thread specifically set up for the purpose ... oh well, one wonders why you bother to post at all since you never seem to have a contribution to make on anything at all except for continual put down?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 11, 2015, 02:07:58 PM
With the best will in the world, with the plaintiffs having about 700k of their claim deffed out and one defendant being stuffed for Euros 500k, I don't see how either of those parties can spin it as a major victory, I would have thought it more like a score draw going into extra time. The winners were the publishers and TV company as they were let off.
If you believe that being ordered to pay 500,000 euros in damages is a similar result as receiving a payment of 500,000 euros in damages (un unprecedentedly huge sum in Portgugal apparently) then you truly have jumped the shark.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 11, 2015, 02:10:43 PM
Not interested in discussing Mr Amaral's appeal on a thread specifically set up for the purpose ... oh well, one wonders why you bother to post at all since you never seem to have a contribution to make on anything at all except for continual put down?

I learned long ago not to be bothered about things over which I have no control.

In this case, lawyers will decide about the appeal without any input from you or I.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 02:13:26 PM
Not interested in discussing Mr Amaral's appeal on a thread specifically set up for the purpose ... oh well, one wonders why you bother to post at all since you never seem to have a contribution to make on anything at all except for continual put down?

What a hypocrite.

You and other mccann supporters have tried to glory in what you perceive as the humiliation of Amaral and the award of money to parents who left their children all by themselves with no one to protect them, and on whom this case rests.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 11, 2015, 02:13:53 PM
I learned long ago not to be bothered about things over which I have no control.

In this case, lawyers will decide about the appeal without any input from you or I.
That goes for every aspect of this case so why bother about any of it at all?  It's a very good question Jassi, perhaps you could explain why you bother posting on the subject?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 11, 2015, 02:17:28 PM
That goes for every aspect of this case so why bother about any of it at all?  It's a very good question Jassi, perhaps you could explain why you bother posting on the subject?

While having an interest in the topic, I am also  here to entertain myself by reading the stupidity of some of the posts on here .  Do you object ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2015, 02:30:38 PM

So dave, when will they get the money ? 8)-)))

and for the mccanns, that's what it's all about.

 8(0(*

seeing amaral deprived of his own money is good enough
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 02:51:20 PM
seeing amaral deprived of his own money is good enough

Of course dave, and we all know why. 8((()*/


Yet you support parents whose actions led to the disappearance of Madeleine. 

Nice one dave &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on May 11, 2015, 02:54:04 PM
Of course dave, and we all know why. 8((()*/


Yet you support parents whose actions led to the disappearance of Madeleine. 

Nice one dave &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
What strange reasoning you have Stephen  8)-)))

Very worrying that there are people around that think like you.

Not many tho
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2015, 02:55:26 PM
Of course dave, and we all know why. 8((()*/


Yet you support parents whose actions led to the disappearance of Madeleine. 

Nice one dave &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+

I support Kate and Gerry who are the victims of a crime
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 02:56:56 PM
I support Kate and Gerry who are the victims of a crime

Actually dave, you don't know the mccanns were victims of the crime, as you don't know who carried out the crime.

 8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 02:57:50 PM
What strange reasoning you have Stephen  8)-)))

Very worrying that there are people around that think like you.

Not many tho

So you really think many people support the mccanns. &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2015, 02:58:55 PM
Actually dave, you don't know the mccanns were victims of the crime, as you don't know who carried out the crime.

 8(0(*

I believe Kate and Gerry as do SY...I don't give a toss what a pillock like you thinks...I'm sure you support my right to free speech
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on May 11, 2015, 02:59:39 PM
What a hypocrite.

You and other mccann supporters have tried to glory in what you perceive as the humiliation of Amaral and the award of money to parents who left their children all by themselves with no one to protect them, and on whom this case rests.

Humiliation brought about by his own actions.    Using his position to gain information for his book.  Writing his book whilst still in the employ of the Portuguese police force.   Using the money on the books he sold to buy an expensive car and pose and strut in front of women,  behaving as a celebrity.   

Madeleine didn't deserve to be written off in Amarals theory.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2015, 03:00:08 PM
I learned long ago not to be bothered about things over which I have no control.

In this case, lawyers will decide about the appeal without any input from you or I.

Precisely my sentiments.

So why do you think you continue to post and why do you think I continue to post?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 11, 2015, 03:09:35 PM
I could only hazard a guess as to why others post, with some apparently spending up to 18 hours a day on line.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2015, 03:11:48 PM
What a hypocrite.

You and other mccann supporters have tried to glory in what you perceive as the humiliation of Amaral and the award of money to parents who left their children all by themselves with no one to protect them, and on whom this case rests.

Interesting you admit the children required protection ... unfortunately holidaymakers knew nothing of the home invasions which had occurred, particularly not the two recent ones in block 5A one of which was directly above the McCann apartment ... or they may have been more on their guard.

The case in which the learned Judge ruled against Goncalo Amaral rests on the unlawful breaking of confidentiality and the unlawful denial of Madeleine McCann's parents right to be considered innocent.

The judgement has been a long time coming ... and whether it can be appealed or not is in the hands of the Portuguese Courts.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2015, 03:15:13 PM
I could only hazard a guess as to why others post, with some apparently spending up to 18 hours a day on line.

Then why post an opinion on why others post if your opinion is only your guess work?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 11, 2015, 03:17:46 PM
Everybody's' contribution is only guesswork or opinion, unless, of course, you have inside information.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 03:24:05 PM
I believe Kate and Gerry as do SY...I don't give a toss what a pillock like you thinks...I'm sure you support my right to free speech

 If you do or don't give a toss, well that's your problem.

 *&*%£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2015, 03:25:04 PM
Everybody's' contribution is only guesswork or opinion, unless, of course, you have inside information.

I agree...but amaral has promoted his theory as fact
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 03:26:17 PM
Interesting you admit the children required protection ... unfortunately holidaymakers knew nothing of the home invasions which had occurred, particularly not the two recent ones in block 5A one of which was directly above the McCann apartment ... or they may have been more on their guard.

The case in which the learned Judge ruled against Goncalo Amaral rests on the unlawful breaking of confidentiality and the unlawful denial of Madeleine McCann's parents right to be considered innocent.

The judgement has been a long time coming ... and whether it can be appealed or not is in the hands of the Portuguese Courts.

The mccanns didn't protect the children.

They were offered services by Mark Warner., which they refused.

The mccanns as guardians were responsible for their children's safety.

They failed miserably.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on May 11, 2015, 03:31:30 PM
So you really think many people support the mccanns. &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Everyone that I know, bar one, supports The Mccanns.... even if not actively like some of us.

They all think the peeps on your side are dreadful to be brutally honest.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 03:37:31 PM
Everyone that I know, bar one, supports The Mccanns.... even if not actively like some of us.

They all think the peeps on your side are dreadful to be brutally honest.

Well I can say sadie, that I have met only one person who supports themccanns, either through friends,family or work contacts.

and the one that does thinks Blair is a socialist. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2015, 03:40:58 PM
Everybody's' contribution is only guesswork or opinion, unless, of course, you have inside information.

Don't know about everyone's contribution being only guesswork ... there have been some very well informed posts from erudite posters scattered throughout the threads of this forum ... no doubt you missed them in your search for amusement.

In the interim the suitability of any thoughts about the progression or not of Mr Amaral's appeal will be decided on this thread by the mods ... not by you or your opinions of other posters.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 11, 2015, 03:47:49 PM
My lips are sealed - until the next time   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 11, 2015, 04:16:17 PM
I'd agree that the amount seems huge by PT standards, but so were Amaral's earnings. From what could be legally established, he earned €382k in around two years. Is that not an above average income for most Portuguese? Strangely, that fact isn't often mentioned, either.

Re: The judge did not agree, however, that the book had hindered the search for Madeleine


I accept that as a loose formulation, but the issue (IMO) is not that she disagreed, but there as no supporting evidence to the contrary.

I prefer made to earned.

A crucial semantic difference, I think.

Does Amaral have a lawyer lined up to spearhead his appeal?

ETA: Could Amaral, for example, challenge the size of the award without challenging the basis of the ruling?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 11, 2015, 04:21:12 PM
Jumping the gun a bit, perhaps.

Amaral has the right to appeal. 

Whether he has the ability to appeal remains to be seen.

He will need to establish grounds for appeal.  And find a lawyer willing and able to take the case.

Time will tell.

Those are my question-marks as well ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 11, 2015, 04:23:11 PM
Gonçalo Amaral already has a lawyer.

Who?

The last (in a long line) of lawyers he didn't sack from proceedings just concluded?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2015, 05:30:05 PM
Amaral has been granted leave to appeal...he has not been granted an appeal yet
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 11, 2015, 05:31:09 PM
a smart person has
Who was that then?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 11, 2015, 05:34:19 PM
While having an interest in the topic, I am also  here to entertain myself by reading the stupidity of some of the posts on here .  Do you object ?
Not at all, that's why I'm here too.  8(0(* However, if no one bothered to comment on the various threads about the case, including this one, then there would be very little material with which to entertain oneself, agreed?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 11, 2015, 05:38:16 PM
If you believe that being ordered to pay 500,000 euros in damages is a similar result as receiving a payment of 500,000 euros in damages (un unprecedentedly huge sum in Portgugal apparently) then you truly have jumped the shark.
I don't think I couched it in those terms. You have done though which is FA to do with what I posted. As usual.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 11, 2015, 05:49:02 PM
I don't think I couched it in those terms. You have done though which is FA to do with what I posted. As usual.
This was the term in which you couched the court verdict:

 
Quote
I would have thought it more like a score draw

Soooo, if you're not saying that  being ordered to pay 500,000 euros in damages is a similar result (in terms of success vs failure) as receiving a payment of 500,000 euros in damages then what ARE you saying?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 11, 2015, 05:51:51 PM
This was the term in which you couched the court verdict:

 
Soooo, if you're not saying that  being ordered to pay 500,000 euros in damages is a similar result (in terms of success vs failure) as receiving a payment of 500,000 euros in damages then what ARE you saying?

Try to express it in terms of the objectives of the writ. Which objectives were achieved and which were not?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 11, 2015, 05:57:38 PM
Try to express it in terms of the objectives of the writ. Which objectives were achieved and which were not?
Amaral's objective was to walk away from court with his finances intact, and his career as a media McCann-basher restored, thoroughly vindicated.  None of these things occurred.  The McCanns' objective was to make Amaral pay for the suffering and hurt he inflicted on their family, and to get the book and the DVD withdrawn permanently.  All of these things came to pass.  The McCanns were awarded the largest ever damages payout awarded against a Portuguese citizen.  I'd call that 3-nil to Team McCann in the Champion's League Final. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 06:04:26 PM
This was the term in which you couched the court verdict:

 
Soooo, if you're not saying that  being ordered to pay 500,000 euros in damages is a similar result (in terms of success vs failure) as receiving a payment of 500,000 euros in damages then what ARE you saying?

They haven't got a penny.

They do however have legal expenses, which will continue to mount.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 11, 2015, 06:06:35 PM
They haven't got a penny.

They do however have legal expenses, which will continue to mount.

I don't suppose they care - its only money and it will come out of the fund.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 11, 2015, 06:08:07 PM
Not at all, that's why I'm here too. 8(0(* However, if no one bothered to comment on the various threads about the case, including this one, then there would be very little material with which to entertain oneself, agreed?

Blimey Alf that means me you and Jassi are a team. We need a name a uniform and a manager now.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2015, 06:09:30 PM
Try to express it in terms of the objectives of the writ. Which objectives were achieved and which were not?

you mean put the spin you wish onto it. let's try this...I buy a lottery ticket...last week the winner won 1,000,000...this week I win and get only 500,000...do you think I would be unhappy
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 11, 2015, 06:13:08 PM
They haven't got a penny.

They do however have legal expenses, which will continue to mount.
Amaral has been made to pay for the shit he has heaped on the McCann family for the last 8 years, even if not a single penny has passed from his account into theirs (yet).  If you don't believe me, ask him - he's not exactly living the Life of Riley is he? 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 06:15:39 PM
Amaral has been made to pay for the shit he has heaped on the McCann family for the last 8 years, even if not a single penny has passed from his account into theirs (yet).  If you don't believe me, ask him - he's not exactly living the Life of Riley is he?

The 'shit' imposed on the mccanns is self imposed.

Useless parenting skills were on display.

and they loved blaming other people for their incompetence.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 06:16:29 PM
'  Another objective article by the nicely rational Natasha Donn here - http://portugalresident.com/maddie-cop%E2%80%99s-legal-fund-%E2%80%9Cwell-on-the-way%E2%80%9D-to-the-%E2%82%AC25000-target

..... and the Defence Fund now up to £13,155 (824 donators) as opposed to just £1842 (102 contributors) for the little cycle jaunt.  '


Maddie cop’s legal fund “well on the way” to the £25,000 target

(http://portugalresident.com/sites/default/files/styles/node-detail/public/field/image/Gonçalo%20Amaral_2.jpg?itok=RCaKw9zp)

Within 11 days, the British fighting fund set up to help the former policeman dubbed by UK media as the “Maddie Lie Cop” has reached over €13,000.

The target - set by young psychology student Leanne Baulch who was only 14 at the time Madeleine McCann went missing - is now less than €11,000 away, and donations are coming in bit by bit every few hours.

The extraordinary aspect of this latest appeal is that it has been taken up by so many and no matter what the size of donations, people show their feelings that Amaral has been “badly treated” for reasons no-one appears able to fathom. Indeed, the €500,000 damages set by judge Emília Melo e Castro, plus the further €106,000 in interest - all destined to compensate the parents of Madeleine for the distress Amaral’s book The Truth of the Lie caused them - are reported to be the highest ever awarded against a Portuguese citizen.

With questions constantly appearing on the fund website asking “what is being covered up”, Brits are giving in droves, with donors ranging from grandparents to young people who were teenagers at the time Madeleine went missing. One of the most recent of the 819 givers was grandmother Kathleen Conell who deposited her £50 saying: “I worry about your safety and only wish someone wealthy with courage would adopt your cause. The corruption in both the UK and Portuguese establishments must be stopped. Democracy is finished otherwise.”

As this latest example of “people-power” righting what they see is a wrong plays out, the mainstream British media is making much of the so-called string of burglaries that appears to have taken place on the resort from which Madeleine went missing just over eight years ago.

Sunday Express writer James Murray has written that British police “have established a pattern of attacks on children in the Algarve… which could lead to a host of other sordid crimes being solved”.

It’s a line that has surfaced every now and then in this infinite mystery and which many query, as if there truly had been a spate of attacks on children in the Algarve, the feeling is that local and national media would have heard about them. As a source told us this week, what were originally described as “five or six cases, then morphed into over a dozen and suddenly exploded into 30 cases or so, if we are to believe the UK media”.

Meantime, the instigator of the British appeal fund raising money for Amaral’s appeal tells us she has been approached by a number of UK newspapers, but none of them are keen to write about her effort until it reaches the €25,000 target.

See more at: http://portugalresident.com/maddie-cop%E2%80%99s-legal-fund-%E2%80%9Cwell-on-the-way%E2%80%9D-to-the-%E2%82%AC25000-target#sthash.4icBYBIZ.dpuf
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 11, 2015, 06:16:54 PM
Blimey Alf that means me you and Jassi are a team. We need a name a uniform and a manager now.


I don't think I'll join - there would only be ugly spat over who wanted to be captain  8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 11, 2015, 06:19:05 PM
The 'shit' imposed on the mccanns is self imposed.

Useless parenting skills were on display.

and they loved blaming other people for their incompetence.
If the shit imposed on the McCanns is self-imposed then perhaps you can explain why the judge awarded them half a million euros in damages against Amaral?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 06:24:11 PM
If the shit imposed on the McCanns is self-imposed then perhaps you can explain why the judge awarded them half a million euros in damages against Amaral?

Who is responsible for the whole case alfred ?

Who left their children without any protection or guard ?

Was it the tooth fairies with their pink spots in green tights ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 11, 2015, 06:25:20 PM
Who is responsible for the whole case alfred ?

Who left their children without any protection or guard ?

Was it the tooth fairies with their pink spots in green tights ?
Again:
If the shit imposed on the McCanns is self-imposed then perhaps you can explain why the judge awarded them half a million euros in damages against Amaral?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 06:31:45 PM
Again:
If the shit imposed on the McCanns is self-imposed then perhaps you can explain why the judge awarded them half a million euros in damages against Amaral?

Just one judge alfred, with their interpretation of the law.

Next time  another judge, who may give another interpretation.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 06:38:25 PM
Another person who does not respect the rule of law.  Judge's don't hand down opinions, they hand down judgements, based on law.

Why are you determined to take this thread off topic into a discussion about the McCanns as parents?  It's something you do on pretty much every single thread when your views are challenged, I think you should be given a warning for repeatedly doing this, what say the Mods?


No alfred, they give the judgement based on their interpretation of the law.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 11, 2015, 06:42:22 PM
Amaral's objective was to walk away from court with his finances intact, and his career as a media McCann-basher restored, thoroughly vindicated.  None of these things occurred.  The McCanns' objective was to make Amaral pay for the suffering and hurt he inflicted on their family, and to get the book and the DVD withdrawn permanently.  All of these things came to pass.  The McCanns were awarded the largest ever damages payout awarded against a Portuguese citizen.  I'd call that 3-nil to Team McCann in the Champion's League Final.

Amarals objective is irrelevant. The relevant objectives are those what are writ in the writ.
Those objectives are clearly defined in the judgement you so kindly posted a link to what now seems like a elephants age ago but was only about a fortnight.
Compare the items the writ sought with that which has been granted by the judge. I don't see how you can judge success or otherwise without making that comparison.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 11, 2015, 06:44:40 PM
you mean put the spin you wish onto it. let's try this...I buy a lottery ticket...last week the winner won 1,000,000...this week I win and get only 500,000...do you think I would be unhappy

You are making very silly comparisons but if that floats you boat be my guest.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 11, 2015, 06:44:49 PM

No alfred, they give the judgement based on their interpretation of the law.


that's pretty much what I said
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 11, 2015, 06:56:24 PM
Amarals objective is irrelevant. The relevant objectives are those what are writ in the writ.
Those objectives are clearly defined in the judgement you so kindly posted a link to what now seems like a elephants age ago but was only about a fortnight.
Compare the items the writ sought with that which has been granted by the judge. I don't see how you can judge success or otherwise without making that comparison.
The overall objective was to punish Amaral.  OK, they asked for a million and only got 500k - maybe they aimed high, but realistically expected less, who knows, except we do know that for them it wasn't about the money and all about making Amaral pay, and about getting him to shut up and his book and video pulled.  There is no other way to put it - this was an unmitigated disaster for Amaral, and the sweetest victory for the McCanns.  I don't see Amaral crowing about "score draws" and the award being only half that which was asked for, I see a man on the brink of utter ruin, reliant on handouts and charity from a bunch of misguided, gullible fools who are egging him on to potentially even greater humiliation and loss.  That's not a position I'd be happy to find myself in.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 11, 2015, 07:26:24 PM
The overall objective was to punish Amaral.  OK, they asked for a million and only got 500k - maybe they aimed high, but realistically expected less, who knows, except we do know that for them it wasn't about the money and all about making Amaral pay, and about getting him to shut up and his book and video pulled.  There is no other way to put it - this was an unmitigated disaster for Amaral, and the sweetest victory for the McCanns.  I don't see Amaral crowing about "score draws" and the award being only half that which was asked for, I see a man on the brink of utter ruin, reliant on handouts and charity from a bunch of misguided, gullible fools who are egging him on to potentially even greater humiliation and loss.  That's not a position I'd be happy to find myself in.

It was always the judgment rather than the money that mattered most to the McCanns.

They have confirmation that Amaral's book is a work of fiction purporting to be a factual record of the shelved investigation commenced in 2007.

Obviously after finding Madeleine, that is what the McCanns wanted most.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 07:28:21 PM
It was always the judgment rather than the money that mattered most to the McCanns.

They have confirmation that Amaral's book is a work of fiction purporting to be a factual record of the shelved investigation commenced in 2007.

Obviously after finding Madeleine, that is what the McCanns wanted most.

The book never harmed the search.

A total fallacy.

This has all been about the mccanns wanting revenge on Amaral.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 11, 2015, 07:31:54 PM
The book never harmed the search.

A total fallacy.

This has all been about the mccanns wanting revenge on Amaral.

They wanted to punish Amaral for falsely accusing them of responsibility for Madeleine's (unconfirmed) "death"; for falsely accusing them of covering up the "fact" of her "death"; and for falsely accusing them of launching a fraudulent fund in their (dead!) daughter's name.

Is that all so unreasonable?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 11, 2015, 07:35:33 PM
The overall objective was to punish Amaral.  OK, they asked for a million and only got 500k - maybe they aimed high, but realistically expected less, who knows, except we do know that for them it wasn't about the money and all about making Amaral pay, and about getting him to shut up and his book and video pulled.  There is no other way to put it - this was an unmitigated disaster for Amaral, and the sweetest victory for the McCanns.  I don't see Amaral crowing about "score draws" and the award being only half that which was asked for, I see a man on the brink of utter ruin, reliant on handouts and charity from a bunch of misguided, gullible fools who are egging him on to potentially even greater humiliation and loss.  That's not a position I'd be happy to find myself in.
According to the writ the key objectives were.
Damages for G & K
Damages for Madeleine
Damages for Amelie
Damages for Sean
Have the court confirm the book damaged the search for Madeleine.
By implication punish Amaral, the publishers and the TV company.
In the event the judge only awarded damages (less than half the total sum claimed) to G & K to be paid by Amaral subject to being upheld on appeal. Whether it is unprecedented in Portugal is largely irrelevant as it would appear to based on his income from the book.
Watch this space.
If the appeal court upholds the judgment then it's time to reach for the Bolly. Before then would be a little previous as we used to say.
Whether or not Amaral is having ring twitter is irrelevant.
I would not be happy in his position either but whatever country you live in the general advice of "never get your self in the hands of the courts" is sound.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 07:36:29 PM
They wanted to punish Amaral for falsely accusing them of responsibility for Madeleine's (unconfirmed) "death"; for falsely accusing them of covering up the "fact" of her "death"; and for falsely accusing them of launching a fraudulent fund in their (dead!) daughter's name.

Is that all so unreasonable?

It has not yet been established how and when exactly Madeleine 'disappeared'.

Has the 'thesis' of accidental death been disproved ferryman ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 11, 2015, 07:38:13 PM
It has not yet been established how and when exactly Madeleine 'disappeared'.

Has the 'thesis' of accidental death been disproved ferryman ?

Disproved?

There's no evidence for it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 07:42:28 PM
Disproved?

There's no evidence for it.

There are indications ferryman, not corroborated by forensics.

Meanwhile there is no evidence whatsoever worth a grain of salt to support abduction.

Even Redwood admitted Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 11, 2015, 07:45:01 PM
There are indications ferryman, not corroborated by forensics.

Meanwhile there is no evidence whatsoever worth a grain of salt to support abduction.

Even Redwood admitted Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.

You are confusing concepts.

There is not a shred of evidence that Kate or Gerry harmed Madeleine.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 07:49:43 PM
You are confusing concepts.

There is not a shred of evidence that Kate or Gerry harmed Madeleine.

I never said there was.

and I am not 'confusing concepts'.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 11, 2015, 08:04:17 PM
According to the writ the key objectives were.
Damages for G & K
Damages for Madeleine
Damages for Amelie
Damages for Sean
Have the court confirm the book damaged the search for Madeleine.
By implication punish Amaral, the publishers and the TV company.
In the event the judge only awarded damages (less than half the total sum claimed) to G & K to be paid by Amaral subject to being upheld on appeal. Whether it is unprecedented in Portugal is largely irrelevant as it would appear to based on his income from the book.
Watch this space.
If the appeal court upholds the judgment then it's time to reach for the Bolly. Before then would be a little previous as we used to say.
Whether or not Amaral is having ring twitter is irrelevant.
I would not be happy in his position either but whatever country you live in the general advice of "never get your self in the hands of the courts" is sound.
So if it is your contention that the time to celebrate is after the appeal, then assuming the judgement remains the same, we must conclude that the trial was a success for the McCanns and a failure for Amaral.  It took a while but we got there in the end!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 08:57:25 PM
Now back to the topic.

How will mccann supporters react, if the appeal case goes ahead as looks a certainty and the verdict of the previous court is overturned  ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 11, 2015, 08:59:54 PM
Now bac to the topic.

How will mccann supporters react, if the appeal case goes ahead as looks a certainty and the verdict of the previous court is overturned  ?


We wuz robbed   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2015, 09:01:24 PM
Now bac to the topic.

How will mccann supporters react, if the appeal case goes ahead as looks a certainty and the verdict of the previous court is overturned  ?

how will you react if the appeal court uphold the verdict
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 11, 2015, 09:09:11 PM
how will you react if the appeal court uphold the verdict


Try answering my question first.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2015, 09:36:08 PM

Try answering my question first.
I  would probably top myself
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 11, 2015, 10:11:02 PM
I  would probably top myself
@)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 11, 2015, 10:19:14 PM
So if it is your contention that the time to celebrate is after the appeal, then assuming the judgement remains the same, we must conclude that the trial was a success for the McCanns and a failure for Amaral.  It took a while but we got there in the end!

I did not say celebrate a success I said reach for the Bolly.
If the case was a resounding legal success for the McCanns why did the judge apportion 60% court costs for them to pay do you suppose?
Me? if I got out of it not costing me money I would consider it a result. There is small matter of 6 years of legal fees to be considered.
As I observed just after the judgement "It would be interesting to see a P & L for this little venture".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 11, 2015, 10:52:27 PM
I did not say celebrate a success I said reach for the Bolly.
If the case was a resounding legal success for the McCanns why did the judge apportion 60% court costs for them to pay do you suppose?
Me? if I got out of it not costing me money I would consider it a result. There is small matter of 6 years of legal fees to be considered.
As I observed just after the judgement "It would be interesting to see a P & L for this little venture".
So when you said "If the appeal court upholds the judgment then it's time to reach for the Bolly" you didn"t mean celebrate a success??!  @)(++(*  What DID you mean then?

As for the rest of your post I believe it is standard practice for both sides to share legal costs, I think you'd have to be really, really REALLY naive to believe that 6 years of court action wouldn't cost you anything,  I'm sure the McCanns feel however that it was worth every penny to wipe the smug expression of Amaral's mush.  A P & L for Amaral's "little venture" would indeed be very interesting indeed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 12, 2015, 08:04:35 AM
I did not say celebrate a success I said reach for the Bolly.
If the case was a resounding legal success for the McCanns why did the judge apportion 60% court costs for them to pay do you suppose?
Me? if I got out of it not costing me money I would consider it a result. There is small matter of 6 years of legal fees to be considered.
As I observed just after the judgement "It would be interesting to see a P & L for this little venture".

if you want to pretend this is not a fantastic victory for the McCanns...carry on. I wonder what amaral thinks about the result...humiliated by his own country's court...ordered to pay the McCanns 500,000...he can appeal but his own assets still frozen...all this having claimed a few months ago he had won.....he must be devastated
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 08:12:23 AM
if you want to pretend this is not a fantastic victory for the McCanns...carry on. I wonder what amaral thinks about the result...humiliated by his own country's court...ordered to pay the McCanns 500,000...he can appeal but his own assets still frozen...all this having claimed a few months ago he had won.....he must be devastated
Yes, if this result was such a failure for the McCanns then why is it not they who are appealing the judge's decision?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 12, 2015, 08:32:25 AM
if you want to pretend this is not a fantastic victory for the McCanns...carry on. I wonder what amaral thinks about the result...humiliated by his own country's court...ordered to pay the McCanns 500,000...he can appeal but his own assets still frozen...all this having claimed a few months ago he had won.....he must be devastated

What is very visible, is that the case is going to appeal, and as has happened before, the initial verdict can be overturned.

The mccanns have not received a penny, Amaral's assets are frozen for now, as they have been for some time.

Meanwhile Amaral has had several hundreds of people donating to his appeal fund, but poor kate mccann, who we are constantly reminded is very popular  @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*   has barely managed to get a 100 people to back her for a charity run.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 12, 2015, 08:48:47 AM
if you want to pretend this is not a fantastic victory for the McCanns...carry on. I wonder what amaral thinks about the result...humiliated by his own country's court...ordered to pay the McCanns 500,000...he can appeal but his own assets still frozen...all this having claimed a few months ago he had won.....he must be devastated

A victory can only be achieved in law when there is no further recourse.  A partial victory would be a better description of events and that can be said of both primary parties.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 12, 2015, 08:51:47 AM
Yes, if this result was such a failure for the McCanns then why is it not they who are appealing the judge's decision?

That could very well happen yet after the next round.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 12, 2015, 09:05:07 AM
What is very visible, is that the case is going to appeal, and as has happened before, the initial verdict can be overturned.

The mccanns have not received a penny, Amaral's assets are frozen for now, as they have been for some time.

Meanwhile Amaral has had several hundreds of people donating to his appeal fund, but poor kate mccann, who we are constantly reminded is very popular  @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*   has barely managed to get a 100 people to back her for a charity run.

Hmmm ... so that is "victory" having one's assets remaining frozen by the Portuguese Courts ... wonder if Mr Amaral views it in quite that light.

As far as subscribing to Mr Amaral's appeal fund goes ... people are entitled to do what they will with their charity ... however your constant whining comparison with the money being collected by Kate McCann for a charity bike ride is really so revealing.

If Mr Amaral is allowed to appeal the decision of a Portuguese Court ... well and good ... but I think he may be denying himself the opportunity to cut his losses and have access to his own funds.

In the interim ... Madeleine McCann's case remains active ... and I am sure if it leads to a positive result for Madeleine ... you will be among the first to rejoice. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 12, 2015, 09:10:40 AM
Hmmm ... so that is "victory" having one's assets remaining frozen by the Portuguese Courts ... wonder if Mr Amaral views it in quite that light.

As far as subscribing to Mr Amaral's appeal fund goes ... people are entitled to do what they will with their charity ... however your constant whining comparison with the money being collected by Kate McCann for a charity bike ride is really so revealing.

If Mr Amaral is allowed to appeal the decision of a Portuguese Court ... well and good ... but I think he may be denying himself the opportunity to cut his losses and have access to his own funds.

In the interim ... Madeleine McCann's case remains active ... and I am sure if it leads to a positive result for Madeleine ... you will be among the first to rejoice.

Pathetic.

If mccann had received hundreds of backers for the charity you would be gloating.

However, in the cold light of day is it finally dawning on you and others, that the mccanns are far from popular ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 09:20:12 AM
That could very well happen yet after the next round.
All sorts of things could happen, but we are discussing the here and now.  If the result was such a flop for the McCanns why haven't they appealed?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 12, 2015, 10:05:20 AM
if you want to pretend this is not a fantastic victory for the McCanns...carry on. I wonder what amaral thinks about the result...humiliated by his own country's court...ordered to pay the McCanns 500,000...he can appeal but his own assets still frozen...all this having claimed a few months ago he had won.....he must be devastated
I am not pretending anything. The same question remains.
Why do you think it is a fantastic victory when the game is not finished? The judgement is subject to appeal.
Whether Amaral is devastated or his assets remain frozen is not relevant to the argument. I don't give a monkeys about Amaral or the McCanns but I am fascinated by the mindset that can declare an unfinished game a victory for one side or the other.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 12, 2015, 10:10:12 AM
So when you said "If the appeal court upholds the judgment then it's time to reach for the Bolly" you didn"t mean celebrate a success??!  @)(++(*  What DID you mean then?

As for the rest of your post I believe it is standard practice for both sides to share legal costs, I think you'd have to be really, really REALLY naive to believe that 6 years of court action wouldn't cost you anything,  I'm sure the McCanns feel however that it was worth every penny to wipe the smug expression of Amaral's mush.  A P & L for Amaral's "little venture" would indeed be very interesting indeed.

Work it out for yourself you should be able to without my help.
Is it?
So in your opinion it is about revenge nothing more nothing less?
Think of your own lines.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 12, 2015, 11:11:40 AM
All sorts of things could happen, but we are discussing the here and now.  If the result was such a flop for the McCanns why haven't they appealed?

Did the judge give them leave to appeal the bits of their claim she booted out?
or
How do you know they haven't appealed?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 12, 2015, 12:18:08 PM
I am not pretending anything. The same question remains.
Why do you think it is a fantastic victory when the game is not finished? The judgement is subject to appeal.
Whether Amaral is devastated or his assets remain frozen is not relevant to the argument. I don't give a monkeys about Amaral or the McCanns but I am fascinated by the mindset that can declare an unfinished game a victory for one side or the other.

don't you realise it's the victories that point to how the war is going
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 12, 2015, 12:30:09 PM
don't you realise it's the victories that point to how the war is going


 &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 12, 2015, 01:09:20 PM
Pathetic.

If mccann had received hundreds of backers for the charity you would be gloating.

However, in the cold light of day is it finally dawning on you and others, that the mccanns are far from popular ?

An even pettier post than usual, and that is saying something, but wouldn't it be rather an adventure to start posting which doesn't involve slagging off Kate McCann and her charitable work and stick to the topic of the thread which, in this case, appears to be something along the lines of Mr Amaral's appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 12, 2015, 01:12:14 PM
An even pettier post than usual, and that is saying something, but wouldn't it be rather an adventure to start posting which doesn't involve slagging off Kate McCann and her charitable work and stick to the topic of the thread which, in this case, appears to be something along the lines of Mr Amaral's appeal?

Oh dear.

You are quite prepared to attack Amaral.

However, when pointed out that he is getting more support than your beloved kate mccann, it gets your back up.

Tough.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 12, 2015, 01:17:44 PM
don't you realise it's the victories that point to how the war is going

Unfortunately history does not support that statement.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2015, 01:31:05 PM
If an appeal has been confirmed, what are the likely bases for one?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on May 12, 2015, 01:31:47 PM
don't you realise it's the victories that point to how the war is going

Don't tell that to Miliband, Clegg and Farage.   %56&
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on May 12, 2015, 01:32:40 PM
If an appeal has been confirmed, what are the likely bases for one?

Probably the very high sum involved, unheard of in Portugal previously.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2015, 01:43:51 PM
Probably the very high sum involved, unheard of in Portugal previously.

Why does the amount gained (or at least the verifiable amount gained), during a recession, of €382k, plus a PJ pension (albeit with a bit deducted to pay off debts), tend to be glossed over in some quarters? 

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 02:07:14 PM
Work it out for yourself you should be able to without my help.
Is it?
So in your opinion it is about revenge nothing more nothing less?
Think of your own lines.
Nope I've tried to figure out an alternative meaning to "reach for the Bolly" other than celebrate but I have failed.  Bolly is champagne, champagne is traditionally drank at times of celebration, so what is my little brain missing here?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2015, 02:19:13 PM
I am not pretending anything. The same question remains.
Why do you think it is a fantastic victory when the game is not finished? The judgement is subject to appeal.
Whether Amaral is devastated or his assets remain frozen is not relevant to the argument. I don't give a monkeys about Amaral or the McCanns but I am fascinated by the mindset that can declare an unfinished game a victory for one side or the other.

As someone once said to me: "Don't buy a bus ticket to market until your hens have produced".

Fair enough.

But I'm still intrigued as to the bases for an appeal.

The quantum, perhaps, but what else?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on May 12, 2015, 02:30:09 PM
As someone once said to me: "Don't buy a bus ticket to market until your hens have produced".

Fair enough.

But I'm still intrigued as to the bases for an appeal.

The quantum, perhaps, but what else?

The judgement runs to over fifty pages, much of which refers to previous European Court decisions in respect of human rights.  Ultimately, the honourable Lady Judge had to take a stand but in the end it was her decision and interpretation of the evidence which was submitted to and given in the Court.

A higher Court could very well take a different view as was seen already in the original book ban.  That said, I would have thought that a lower Court overturning a previous ruling by the Supreme Court could in itself be grounds for appeal.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 12, 2015, 02:33:11 PM
The judgement runs to over fifty pages, much of which refers to previous European Court decisions in respect of human rights.  Ultimately, the honourable Lady Judge had to take a stand but in the end it was her decision and interpretation of the evidence which was submitted to and given in the Court.

A higher Court could very well take a different view as was seen already in the original book ban.

It seems amaral actually broke some laws...nothing to do with opinion
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on May 12, 2015, 02:38:53 PM
It seems amaral actually broke some laws...nothing to do with opinion

That would be a matter for a criminal Court if true.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 12, 2015, 02:40:08 PM
The UK MSM have regularly reported on the Madeleine mcCann case, even when there is very little new to report. How strange that they are not reporting on the support for Goncalo Amaral.

Within 11 days, the British fighting fund set up to help the former policeman dubbed by UK media as the “Maddie Lie Cop” has reached over €13,000......
..the instigator of the British appeal fund raising money for Amaral’s appeal tells us she has been approached by a number of UK newspapers, but none of them are keen to write about her effort until it reaches the €25,000 target.

As this latest example of “people-power” righting what they see is a wrong plays out, the mainstream British media is making much of the so-called string of burglaries that appears to have taken place on the resort from which Madeleine went missing just over eight years ago. It’s a line that has surfaced every now and then in this infinite mystery and which many query, as if there truly had been a spate of attacks on children in the Algarve, the feeling is that local and national media would have heard about them. As a source told us this week, what were originally described as “five or six cases, then morphed into over a dozen and suddenly exploded into 30 cases or so, if we are to believe the UK media”.

http://portugalresident.com/maddie-cop%E2%80%99s-legal-fund-%E2%80%9Cwell-on-the-way%E2%80%9D-to-the-%E2%82%AC25000-target
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2015, 02:44:30 PM
The judgement runs to over fifty pages, much of which refers to previous European Court decisions in respect of human rights.  Ultimately, the honourable Lady Judge had to take a stand but in the end it was her decision and interpretation of the evidence which was submitted to and given in the Court.

A higher Court could very well take a different view as was seen already in the original book ban.

Always possible.

I did find that judgement odd when it said that

In the book, we do not verify any reference to any facts that are not in that dispatch.

Where the author differs from the Prosecutors who have written the dispatch, is in the logical, police-work-related and investigative interpretation that he does of those facts.

In that aspect, we stand before the exercise of freedom of opinion, which is a domain in which the author is an expert, as he was a criminal investigator for 26 years.


With all due respect to the honourable Supreme Court judges, I'm not convinced that they actually compared the book to the files in detail... as if they had, they may have noticed that not all the "facts" are recorded in the files. I'm not convinced, either, that they considered his experience in the field of missing children... of which there appears to be only one other. 

If the ruling is based on an incorrect appreciation of facts, is that ruling absolute?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on May 12, 2015, 03:03:24 PM
Always possible.

I did find that judgement odd when it said that

In the book, we do not verify any reference to any facts that are not in that dispatch.

Where the author differs from the Prosecutors who have written the dispatch, is in the logical, police-work-related and investigative interpretation that he does of those facts.

In that aspect, we stand before the exercise of freedom of opinion, which is a domain in which the author is an expert, as he was a criminal investigator for 26 years.


With all due respect to the honourable Supreme Court judges, I'm not convinced that they actually compared the book to the files in detail... as if they had, they may have noticed that not all the "facts" are recorded in the files. I'm not convinced, either, that they considered his experience in the field of missing children... of which there appears to be only one other. 

If the ruling is based on an incorrect appreciation of facts, is that ruling absolute?

Isn't that why there is an option to appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2015, 03:36:56 PM
Isn't that why there is an option to appeal?

My comment was about the Supreme Court ruling concerning the injunction.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on May 12, 2015, 03:41:08 PM
My comment was about the Supreme Court ruling concerning the injunction.

They might have something similar to a judicial review in Portugal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 12, 2015, 03:47:52 PM
Nope I've tried to figure out an alternative meaning to "reach for the Bolly" other than celebrate but I have failed.  Bolly is champagne, champagne is traditionally drank at times of celebration, so what is my little brain missing here?

Hint: you have omitted a word above that was in your previous post. Try again  8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 06:36:35 PM
[/b]

I am not beating about the bush. I was quite clear in what I said in the first instance, you then inserted a word I had used to change the sense then started arguing about that. The word is still missing above. If you can't work it out so be it.
OK - from the top.

You said:

"If the appeal court upholds the judgment then it's time to reach for the Bolly".

You then claimed that "reaching for the Bolly" did not mean "to celebrate a success"

Therefore please explain what you meant by "reaching for the Bolly".

Thanks in anticipation.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 12, 2015, 06:41:37 PM
The judgement runs to over fifty pages, much of which refers to previous European Court decisions in respect of human rights.  Ultimately, the honourable Lady Judge had to take a stand but in the end it was her decision and interpretation of the evidence which was submitted to and given in the Court.

A higher Court could very well take a different view as was seen already in the original book ban. That said, I would have thought that a lower Court overturning a previous ruling by the Supreme Court could in itself be grounds for appeal.

I don't believe that a lower court did.

I think the dispute over the injunction was a judgment on the right of free speech versus the right of citizens to a good name, with the highest appeal (in that dispute) upholding Amaral's right to free speech.

The libel trial was something else.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 12, 2015, 06:54:31 PM
The judge confirmed that the book was factual and based on the police files as did the Tribunal de Relação in October 2010.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 12, 2015, 07:00:38 PM
OK - from the top.

You said:

"If the appeal court upholds the judgment then it's time to reach for the Bolly".

You then claimed that "reaching for the Bolly" did not mean "to celebrate a success"

Therefore please explain what you meant by "reaching for the Bolly".

Thanks in anticipation.

OK I meant: "let's have a brew it's all over".
But then you realised that in the first place.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 12, 2015, 07:01:23 PM
The judge confirmed that the book was factual and based on the police files as did the Tribunal de Relação in October 2010.

Not read that part of the learned judge's judgement.

But do you really believe (for example) that Amaral contradicted and corrected Prior on interpretation of the forensic results?

Or that Prior then rang the FSS to berate them on the PJ's powers of arrest?

Do you still think that the woman at the trial who said most of Amaral's book was made up was being ironic?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 07:06:48 PM
OK I meant: "let's have a brew it's all over".
But then you realised that in the first place.
Er...I did?  So, in your funny old world "reaching for the Bolly" means let's have a cup of tea, it's all over".  Right, I getcha now.   @)(++(*

I'm just off to "reach for the Bolly"  might have a Rich Tea to dunk into it -  back in a mo'... 8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 12, 2015, 07:07:10 PM
do you not realise amaral lied in his book...that should answer your question

OK lets take it I am as thick as two short planks that lets me out of the equation.
The question remains how did you arrive at "most intelligent people" ?
You must have have measured it or assessed it somehow in order to be able to make the statement. I am just asking how, or did you pluck a number out of the air and multiply it by the number the number of the next bus to pass?
As you seem unable to answer one presumes the latter.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 07:13:57 PM
The UK MSM have regularly reported on the Madeleine mcCann case, even when there is very little new to report. How strange that they are not reporting on the support for Goncalo Amaral.

Within 11 days, the British fighting fund set up to help the former policeman dubbed by UK media as the “Maddie Lie Cop” has reached over €13,000......
..the instigator of the British appeal fund raising money for Amaral’s appeal tells us she has been approached by a number of UK newspapers, but none of them are keen to write about her effort until it reaches the €25,000 target.

As this latest example of “people-power” righting what they see is a wrong plays out, the mainstream British media is making much of the so-called string of burglaries that appears to have taken place on the resort from which Madeleine went missing just over eight years ago. It’s a line that has surfaced every now and then in this infinite mystery and which many query, as if there truly had been a spate of attacks on children in the Algarve, the feeling is that local and national media would have heard about them. As a source told us this week, what were originally described as “five or six cases, then morphed into over a dozen and suddenly exploded into 30 cases or so, if we are to believe the UK media”.

http://portugalresident.com/maddie-cop%E2%80%99s-legal-fund-%E2%80%9Cwell-on-the-way%E2%80%9D-to-the-%E2%82%AC25000-target

RE: The bit in bold above - why would Leanne Baulch have already been approached by journalists who were NOT interested in covering the story until it reached £25k - can you explain the sense of that?

"Hello Leanne - I'm a journalist with the Sun and I'm just contacting you to let you knowI'm not interested in writing about your fund until it reaches £25k". 

Yeah, as any intelligent person can see, that makes no sense at all!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2015, 07:17:16 PM
The judge confirmed that the book was factual and based on the police files as did the Tribunal de Relação in October 2010.

Erm... that's not exactly what she said, is it, Montclair?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 12, 2015, 07:37:56 PM
RE: The bit in bold above - why would Leanne Baulch have already been approached by journalists who were NOT interested in covering the story until it reached £25k - can you explain the sense of that?

"Hello Leanne - I'm a journalist with the Sun and I'm just contacting you to let you knowI'm not interested in writing about your fund until it reaches £25k". 

Yeah, as any intelligent person can see, that makes no sense at all!

Ow er, do I see another intelligent person! Perhaps the Media were after something else? Interesting that no-one's commented on the 'so-called burglaries' which no-one in the Algarve or even in Portugal has heard of?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 07:43:34 PM
Ow er, do I see another intelligent person! Perhaps the Media were after something else? Interesting that no-one's commented on the 'so-called burglaries' which no-one in the Algarve or even in Portugal has heard of?
What sort of something else would they be interested in from Leanne Baulch?  Who does her hair maybe? 

What is your point re the break -ins?  You think because (according to N Donn) no  one in PT has heard of them that they have been invented by the Met?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 12, 2015, 07:56:05 PM
The judge confirmed that the book was factual and based on the police files as did the Tribunal de Relação in October 2010.

don't talk stupid...the book was based on the files but contained things that were not in the files..read the judgement again
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 12, 2015, 07:57:37 PM
RE: The bit in bold above - why would Leanne Baulch have already been approached by journalists who were NOT interested in covering the story until it reached £25k - can you explain the sense of that?

"Hello Leanne - I'm a journalist with the Sun and I'm just contacting you to let you knowI'm not interested in writing about your fund until it reaches £25k". 

Yeah, as any intelligent person can see, that makes no sense at all!

I agree ...looks like she approached the press and were told they were not interested
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on May 12, 2015, 08:05:25 PM
What sort of something else would they be interested in from Leanne Baulch?  Who does her hair maybe? 

What is your point re the break -ins?  You think because (according to N Donn) no  one in PT has heard of them that they have been invented by the Met?

Not invented at all. Several of the staff commented on burglaries, as did Mrs Fenn. Here's one staff member:-

Questioned, he states that, last Thursday, he was off duty but was called by the reception and went to the resort around 020H30 to open a door that had problems. After completing the work for which he was called, which took him about 15 minutes, he left for his residence,

and was again contacted, at around 22H15 to ask him if there were torch/flash lights that could be used to help look for a child that had gone missing. The deponent responded that there weren’t any and was not called again that night.
• When he arrived the next morning, around 07H10, he encountered many people and GNR/police close to block 5 along with some foreigners, who, at the time, he associated with the disappearance of the child he had heard about the night before. He headed toward his place of work and that morning carried out his functions which included the cleaning of the pools next to the Tapas restaurant. He did not notice anything out of the ordinary.
• During the day he learnt more via his colleagues of the story of the missing child.
• Questioned, he states that he never came across a circumstance that made him pay particular attention to this family, not with the children or before the disappearance.
• Questioned, he states that he does not remember having seen Madeleine’s face before her photograph was released in the media and which he helped distribute to the apartments after her disappearance.
He states that the break-ins to the apartments are common, especially
for burglary purposes, and that some are the result of clients leaving their doors open.
Questioned, he states that according to what he remembers, he did not observe any abnormal movements by any individual that would indicate s/he was preparing to commit a criminal act.
• And nothing more was said. He reads and finds it in conformity.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post178.html#p178
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on May 12, 2015, 09:04:28 PM
I agree ...looks like she approached the press and were told they were not interested

Why does it "look like" she approached the press? Do you have evidence to point to that? After the Brenda Leyland tragedy I doubt anyone would "contact the press" if they were on the "wrong side".

 The Sun, I think, already did an article on "trolls" fund raising for Mr Amaral. It's more than likely other papers did get in touch. That's the more "intelligent" probability.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 12, 2015, 09:22:29 PM
We are told by the McCanns that it's not about the money. Let's see if on appeal the book ban remains but the damages are reduced to €10 whether that still remains true.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 12, 2015, 09:27:49 PM
Why does it "look like" she approached the press? Do you have evidence to point to that? After the Brenda Leyland tragedy I doubt anyone would "contact the press" if they were on the "wrong side".

 The Sun, I think, already did an article on "trolls" fund raising for Mr Amaral. It's more than likely other papers did get in touch. That's the more "intelligent" probability.

Why would they get in touch and not want a story...she is courting publicity...I don't particularly blame her...she believes amaral when he says the dogs prove maddie died in the apartment...no wonder these people think there's a conspiracy...if I believed what amaral has said I would think the same. The difference is I have enough sense to realise it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 09:30:57 PM
Why does it "look like" she approached the press? Do you have evidence to point to that? After the Brenda Leyland tragedy I doubt anyone would "contact the press" if they were on the "wrong side".

 The Sun, I think, already did an article on "trolls" fund raising for Mr Amaral. It's more than likely other papers did get in touch. That's the more "intelligent" probability.
Did you read Natasha's article?  It makes little sense.  Journos do not approach people to tell them they're not interested in covering their stories until circumstances change.  It certainly sounds much more likely that Baulch approached them and that is why the journos said what they did, I doubt you see the logic in that but there we are.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 12, 2015, 09:34:53 PM
Why does it "look like" she approached the press? Do you have evidence to point to that? After the Brenda Leyland tragedy I doubt anyone would "contact the press" if they were on the "wrong side".

 The Sun, I think, already did an article on "trolls" fund raising for Mr Amaral. It's more than likely other papers did get in touch. That's the more "intelligent" probability.

If the editors read the comments by those donating they would have realised that the effect of the Sun article was to increase donations. That's why they are waiting to report the story in case they are accused of encouraging the fundraising too imo.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 12, 2015, 09:51:14 PM
Not read that part of the learned judge's judgement.

But do you really believe (for example) that Amaral contradicted and corrected Prior on interpretation of the forensic results?

Or that Prior then rang the FSS to berate them on the PJ's powers of arrest?

Do you still think that the woman at the trial who said most of Amaral's book was made up was being ironic?

I suggest that you read the judgement again then.

None of the above has any bearing on whether the book was factual or not. And the woman lawyer was being ironic but of course you don't want to believe that do you?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 12, 2015, 09:54:15 PM
Erm... that's not exactly what she said, is it, Montclair?

What did she say then? That the book was full of lies?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 12, 2015, 11:04:17 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CE0BesSWAAAhEOf.png

could someone tell me ..how is giving money to amaral going to help Maddie...more lies

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CE0BesSWAAAhEOf.png)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 12, 2015, 11:25:32 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CE0BesSWAAAhEOf.png

could someone tell me ..how is giving money to amaral going to help Maddie...more lies
How cynical and tasteless can The Gonc Fanclub get?  Cashing in on Madeleine's birthday to finance the man who wrote her off as dead years ago and who tried to convince the world her parents hid her remains.  Is there no end to these vile people's cruelty?   
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 12, 2015, 11:27:06 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CE0BesSWAAAhEOf.png

could someone tell me ..how is giving money to amaral going to help Maddie...more lies


I think it is rather crass given the circumstances, but what else would one expect.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CE0BesSWAAAhEOf.png
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 13, 2015, 10:02:50 AM
Good news this morning.

I have just seen this on Amazon.

'  Amaral obviously now has ample funds for the simple process of lodging an appeal, which will just be a formality, given that the court granted him permission to do so.

He will then have a year or so to build up further funds, if required, for the appeal itself.

Do you remember what happened last time?

The Court of Appeal unceremoniously overturned the lower court's ridiculous ruling, and the Supreme Court judges didn't even think it was worth getting out of bed to hear a McCann appeal against that. '
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2015, 10:10:32 AM
You surely cannot believe what you write.  Did you not see the marketing tools created to drum up support for Amaral's fund that were plastered all over the net yesterday, examples of which were posted on this forum by Davel?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with raising funds and\or contributing to an appeal for donations to support Mr Amaral's appeal against the judgement handed down to him in a Portuguese Court.

There is however a savage sickness infecting those who work out the best way possible to get the boot into the mother of a missing child; that these people appear to be one and the same ... it speaks volumes.


Kate McCann hit by internet trolls on missing Maddie's 12th birthday
INTERNET trolls sent cruel messages to Kate McCann on missing daughter Madeleine’s 12th birthday yesterday.

Kate, was abused as she appealed for sponsors for a cycle challenge to raise cash for missing children.

Trolls even made donations to her Just- Giving page so they could access it to leave hate messages too shocking to print.
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/441800/Madeleine-McCann-Kate-McCann-12th-Birthday


Was it last year that the internet was awash with vile plans to march on the McCann's home town on Madeleine McCann's birthday?  I think the description they so much object to ~ TROLLS ~ is actually an insult to the genre, they are so much more worse than that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 13, 2015, 10:32:51 AM
Amaral will need to establish grounds of an appeal acceptable to the next court up.

I hope he's got that sorted, or the administrators of the fund may have to find something else to do with the money they've raised.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 11:13:50 AM
Nearly 100 donations of £12 to the Gonc fund yesterday, some repeat donations by those who had already given but who obviously got a kick out of making a point on Madeleine's Birthday - and you say this was not an organised campaign, but just 100 or so individuals independently coming up with the idea of donating exactly £12?   &%+((£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 13, 2015, 11:41:10 AM
alf   if people  want to  donate   for  GA   they can people donate to the mcanns what is the diffrence??
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 13, 2015, 12:00:56 PM
No, I don't do screen grabs, I'm not a cataloguer of "sceptic" crap.  Are you disputing the use of this graphic by sceptics to drum up funds for Amaral?

I'm asking for context. As I haven't seen the graphic or anything of a similar nature how am I to know it hasn't simply been 'knocked up' to discredit sceptics and/or the fund ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 12:02:17 PM
I'm asking for context. As I haven't seen the graphic or anything of a similar nature how am I to know it hasn't simply been 'knocked up' to discredit sceptics and/or the fund ?
LOL.  So you agree it is discreditable then?  I suggest you take a look around Facebook and Twitter, I'm sure you'll stumble across it there...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 13, 2015, 12:12:11 PM
LOL.  So you agree it is discreditable then?  I suggest you take a look around Facebook and Twitter, I'm sure you'll stumble across it there...

If true I believe it's in poor taste.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 13, 2015, 12:41:40 PM
I have no problem with Amaral's fans fundraising for his defence, but I find it beyond the pale to use her birthday in such a misleading way. Nothing he has written or said has contributed in any way to finding her, nor is it likely to. Yet people who know little about the case could get the impression that supporting his defence is somehow supporting the search for her...

AND how is using such tactics respectful to either Madeleine (if ever she is out there) and / or to those who knew and loved her on yet another of those special dates?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on May 13, 2015, 07:05:54 PM
Why would they get in touch and not want a story...she is courting publicity...I don't particularly blame her...she believes amaral when he says the dogs prove maddie died in the apartment...no wonder these people think there's a conspiracy...if I believed what amaral has said I would think the same. The difference is I have enough sense to realise amaral is lying

Why wouldn't they? They got in touch. The proviso was given. You still have no evidence or proof she was "courting publicity" or evidence or proof that no journalist contacted her.  Just mere speculation.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on May 13, 2015, 07:07:21 PM
Did you read Natasha's article?  It makes little sense.  Journos do not approach people to tell them they're not interested in covering their stories until circumstances change.  It certainly sounds much more likely that Baulch approached them and that is why the journos said what they did, I doubt you see the logic in that but there we are.

No I didn't. Who is Natasha? Who is to say journos do not contact people and stipulate x y or zee.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on May 13, 2015, 07:08:22 PM
If the editors read the comments by those donating they would have realised that the effect of the Sun article was to increase donations. That's why they are waiting to report the story in case they are accused of encouraging the fundraising too imo.

Thank you G-Unit :) This makes sense.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 09:51:49 AM
So it seems this 25000 eruo target will be reached.

What next?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 14, 2015, 10:10:56 AM
So it seems this 25000 eruo target will be reached.

What next?

34542.59 EUR target actually.

£15,817 of £25k
Raised by 1,023 people in 14 days
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 10:14:41 AM
34542.59 EUR target actually.

£15,817 of £25k
Raised by 1,023 people in 14 days

Where is the higher figure cited?

And why, through time, has the 25K figure remained unchanged, while the figure cited as raised has steadily risen?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 14, 2015, 10:22:12 AM
Where is the higher figure cited?

And why, through time, has the 25K figure remained unchanged, while the figure cited as raised has steadily risen?

You said 25,000 EUR target. It's not EUR, it's pounds. I calculated the EUR figure for you  ?{)(**
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 14, 2015, 10:28:38 AM
You said 25,000 EUR target. It's not EUR, it's pounds. I calculated the EUR figure for you  ?{)(**

a few mcann supporters seem very distresssed and worried about the fund for GA what are they scared of the mcanns have had a long running fund for 8 years
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 10:30:38 AM
You said 25,000 EUR target. It's not EUR, it's pounds. I calculated the EUR figure for you  ?{)(**

Fair enough.

My mistake.

When the target figure is reached, what next?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 14, 2015, 10:38:34 AM
Fair enough.

My mistake.

When the target figure is reached, what next?

it will pay for his appeal
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 10:41:33 AM
it will pay for his appeal

But what if his cited grounds of appeal are rejected?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 14, 2015, 10:44:13 AM
Nothing he has written or said has contributed in any way to finding her, nor is it likely to.

That's not the case Carana.  By writing the book and having it distributed worldwide Goncalo Amaral created an awareness of the circumstances of Maddies disappearance.

A point worth noting is that Goncalo Amaral has never complained or sought redress when his book was copied and posted all over the web yet the McCanns have sought to do so at every juncture.  One could be forgiven for believing that they are more interested in the funds the book brings in than than the message it carries.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 14, 2015, 10:52:26 AM
a few mcann supporters seem very distresssed and worried about the fund for GA what are they scared of the mcanns have had a long running fund for 8 years

I suppose they find it hard to understand why people prefer to support a 'disgraced' Portuguese policeman than a professional couple of UK doctors whose friends and family have all testified as to what good parents they were; except for a few evenings on holiday of course.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 14, 2015, 11:05:26 AM
I suppose they find it hard to understand why people prefer to support a 'disgraced' Portuguese policeman than a professional couple of UK doctors whose friends and family have all testified as to what good parents they were; except for a few evenings on holiday of course.

Not at all ... I think people may have a perfect understanding of why there are those who wish to contribute to Mr Amaral's appeal fund ... as far as I am concerned, if that is what they wish to do with their money that is entirely a decision for them to make.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2015, 11:15:05 AM
Not at all ... I think people may have a perfect understanding of why there are those who wish to contribute to Mr Amaral's appeal fund ... as far as I am concerned, if that is what they wish to do with their money that is entirely a decision for them to make.

and absolutely nothing to do with you.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 14, 2015, 11:19:07 AM
Not at all ... I think people may have a perfect understanding of why there are those who wish to contribute to Mr Amaral's appeal fund ... as far as I am concerned, if that is what they wish to do with their money that is entirely a decision for them to make.

I used to have some sympathy for the McCanns but that died when I came to realise that they failed to cooperate fully with the official investigation being conducted by the Portuguese and English police and decided to bring in a bunch of criminals masquerading as private investigators.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 11:20:41 AM
That's not the case Carana.  By writing the book and having it distributed worldwide Goncalo Amaral created an awareness of the circumstances of Maddies disappearance.

A point worth noting is that Goncalo Amaral has never complained or sought redress when his book was copied and posted all over the web yet the McCanns have sought to do so at every juncture.  One could be forgiven for believing that they are more interested in the funds the book brings in than than the message it carries.

An English-language version of Amaral's book, readily available on line, has proved useful in ways Amaral wouldn't necessarily appreciate.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2015, 11:29:55 AM
and absolutely nothing to do with you.

A totally unnecessary comment, Stephen.  That is what Brietta said.  It's nothing to do with her.

And it's nothing to do with me either.  The poor man is nearly on his beam end, apart from being a bit better off than most Portuguese.
But everyone should have the means to Appeal.  Although I won't be donating myself.

However, I understand that Jean Pierre did donate.  But then he is a thoroughly fair man.

By the way, have you donated?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on May 14, 2015, 11:45:27 AM
I suppose they find it hard to understand why people prefer to support a 'disgraced' Portuguese policeman than a professional couple of UK doctors whose friends and family have all testified as to what good parents they were; except for a few evenings on holiday of course.

I don't find it hard to understand.    IMO Some sceptics will support anything if they believe it will hurt the McCann family, even if it means supporting a corrupt policeman with a criminal record.    Simples.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 14, 2015, 11:51:23 AM
I don't find it hard to understand.    IMO Some sceptics will support anything if they believe it will hurt the McCann family, even if it means supporting a corrupt policeman with a criminal record.    Simples.

So all those people who have donated have lied about their reasons for doing so? In your opinion obviously.  8(>((
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 14, 2015, 11:52:56 AM
I used to have some sympathy for the McCanns but that died when I came to realise that they failed to cooperate fully with the official investigation being conducted by the Portuguese and English police and decided to bring in a bunch of criminals masquerading as private investigators.


Apart from being shocked to the core by the ongoing assaults on Madeleine McCann's family and her parents, their friends and anyone associated with them ... I have no entrenched opinion on either Dr Kate McCann or Dr Gerry McCann, apart from concurring with the Portuguese Judge on their legal status.

I understand entirely their concerns regarding the conduct of the inquiry into Madeleine's disappearance and their mounting concerns which led to the employment of private investigators who at the least were looking for a living child.

I would not consider contributing to a fund set up to finance an appeal against what I consider to be a just verdict against a man who more than went out of his way to confirm his prejudices in the most unprofessional manner he had to hand and the illegality of which has been confirmed in court.

The people who are most affected by the rule of the law of the land are the citizens of Portugal and the information I would find to clarify their opinion on the matter is not forthcoming ... and that is how much is being contributed from Portugal to Mr Amaral's fund to finance his appeal, if it is allowed to proceed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 14, 2015, 12:16:54 PM
I understand entirely their concerns regarding the conduct of the inquiry into Madeleine's disappearance and their mounting concerns which led to the employment of private investigators who at the least were looking for a living child.

Was that before or after it while they were attempting to take Amaral down?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2015, 12:19:09 PM
As a reminder for some people.

' Here is your "Extract of the Day" from the Lisbon judge's ruling.

"It is important to keep in mind that it is not illegal to sustain the thesis according to which Madeleine McCann died in the apartment of Praia da Luz and that her body was concealed by her parents."

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm '

Courtesy of the Amazon forum.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 14, 2015, 12:30:42 PM
I don't find it hard to understand.    IMO Some sceptics will support anything if they believe it will hurt the McCann family, even if it means supporting a corrupt policeman with a criminal record.    Simples.

Even if he has "previous" he remains entitled to full due process of the law. Should that necessitate going out with a begging bowl that's fair enough; after all he will be neither the first nor last to do it. As I have observed before the fees for a large number of criminals in the UK is funded from legal aid taxation. I don't see the problem unless of course your contention is that Dr Amaral is not entitled to full due process of the law.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2015, 12:35:55 PM
As a reminder for some people.

' Here is your "Extract of the Day" from the Lisbon judge's ruling.

"It is important to keep in mind that it is not illegal to sustain the thesis according to which Madeleine McCann died in the apartment of Praia da Luz and that her body was concealed by her parents."

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm '

Courtesy of the Amazon forum.


no one said it was  illegal
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on May 14, 2015, 12:40:38 PM
So all those people who have donated have lied about their reasons for doing so? In your opinion obviously.  8(>((

From what I have read in the comments section - their reasons are based on their hatred of the McCanns.  Even after the most offensive comments have been removed it still reeks of h.a.t.r.e.d  directed at the McCanns IMO.

The same old myths, lies and disinformation - which many sceptics still believe are true are being repeated at length in the comments section - with no rebuttals.   What has any of that got to do with Amaral's appeal -  which incidentally - he is perfectly entitled to apply for.  I have no problem with that.

I have not said anyone lied.  I am simply giving my opinion on the reasons why some sceptics have decided to support a policeman who abused his privileged  position to cover up the torture of a defenceless woman and was rightly given a criminal conviction as a result of that.   What normal person would want to support such a proven corrupt policeman ?  IMO  there must be another reason - and I suggest it is the overriding desire of some to hurt the McCanns in any way they can and this is an opportunity to do just that.   

If that is not the reason  - then what is it based on?     It can't be on Amarals brilliant handling of the case as he was removed from it by his own Portuguese authorities. 


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2015, 12:41:46 PM
Just give him the money and let's see how he gets on.  Portuguese Law is a revelation after all.  And what on earth would we all do with ourselves without it?

In truth, I don't really care what happens to him.  He had the means to make a truly honest name for himself, which is not granted to many.  And I find it to be really sad that he finally, totally wrecked his life.

I think he did this because his buddy, Cristovao had made a few bob doing more or less the same thing.

Whether or not he actually believes The McCanns to be guilty is neither here nor there.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 14, 2015, 12:44:59 PM
That's not the case Carana.  By writing the book and having it distributed worldwide Goncalo Amaral created an awareness of the circumstances of Maddies disappearance.

A point worth noting is that Goncalo Amaral has never complained or sought redress when his book was copied and posted all over the web yet the McCanns have sought to do so at every juncture.  One could be forgiven for believing that they are more interested in the funds the book brings in than than the message it carries.

Media reports on the official ruling to archive the case, which had taken into account all of the information known at the time (not just cherry-picked details), came to a different conclusion.

On your second point, Amaral's publishers might have had more reasons to seek legal redress than Amaral himself over amateur translations... The publishers would have known that it was extremely unlikely that they could have sold the rights to any anglophone country. If that's the reasoning behind not bothering, then Amaral wouldn't have got his royalties in any case.

A little detail that seems to be forgotten is that Amaral had "political ambitions", starting with an attempt to get elected to the council of Olhão...

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 14, 2015, 12:52:10 PM
From what I have read in the comments section - their reasons are based on their hatred of the McCanns.  Even after the most offensive comments have been removed it still reeks of h.a.t.r.e.d  directed at the McCanns IMO.

The same old myths, lies and disinformation - which many sceptics still believe are true are being repeated at length in the comments section - with no rebuttals.   What has any of that got to do with Amaral's appeal -  which incidentally - he is perfectly entitled to apply for.  I have no problem with that.

I have not said anyone lied.  I am simply giving my opinion on the reasons why some sceptics have decided to support a policeman who abused his privileged  position to cover up the torture of a defenceless woman and was rightly given a criminal conviction as a result of that.   What normal person would want to support such a proven corrupt policeman ? IMO  there must be another reason - and I suggest it is the overriding desire of some to hurt the McCanns in any way they can and this is an opportunity to do just that.   

If that is not the reason  - then what is it based on?     It can't be on Amarals brilliant handling of the case as he was removed from it by his own Portuguese authorities.

In this country it would probably be funded from legal aid taxation to which you contribute.
So the notion that those who contribute to the defence of criminals are abnormal ?...................fill in the rest yourself.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on May 14, 2015, 01:02:37 PM
As a reminder for some people.

' Here is your "Extract of the Day" from the Lisbon judge's ruling.

"It is important to keep in mind that it is not illegal to sustain the thesis according to which Madeleine McCann died in the apartment of Praia da Luz and that her body was concealed by her parents."

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm '

Courtesy of the Amazon forum.

c) The prohibitions required under paragraphs d), e) and f) of action of petitionary attached, beyond the scope of this action and are disproportionate. It is not illegal to retain the support of the thesis that Madeleine McCann died a smaller apartment in Praia da Luz and his body was hidden by parents. The scope of action is the claim by the defendant Goncalo Amaral, in the book, the interview and documentary, in concrete terms in which it did, this same thesis.
d) the desired condemnation in the judgment of the publication of the above considerations apply, for the same order, to which reference is made.
e) The mandatory sanction is appropriate, but it should be fixed in accordance with paragraph 1 of article 829º-A of the Civil Code, only for non-fungible fact benefits, considering proportional to the amount of € 50,000.00 (fifty thousand euros) for each offense this command (paragraph 2 of article 829º-A of the Civil Code).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2015, 01:06:26 PM
In this country it would probably be funded from legal aid taxation to which you contribute.
So the notion that those who contribute to the defence of criminals are abnormal ?...................fill in the rest yourself.

It is entirely the choice of the individual in this case.  Even their motives are not important.  But the opinions of others are perfectly valid.

And this could have some considerably effect on Portuguese Law in the future, which I would like to see, whichever way it goes.

No more real harm can be done to The McCanns now.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 14, 2015, 01:10:14 PM
From what I have read in the comments section - their reasons are based on their hatred of the McCanns.  Even after the most offensive comments have been removed it still reeks of h.a.t.r.e.d  directed at the McCanns IMO.

The same old myths, lies and disinformation - which many sceptics still believe are true are being repeated at length in the comments section - with no rebuttals.   What has any of that got to do with Amaral's appeal -  which incidentally - he is perfectly entitled to apply for.  I have no problem with that.

I have not said anyone lied.  I am simply giving my opinion on the reasons why some sceptics have decided to support a policeman who abused his privileged  position to cover up the torture of a defenceless woman and was rightly given a criminal conviction as a result of that.   What normal person would want to support such a proven corrupt policeman ?  IMO  there must be another reason - and I suggest it is the overriding desire of some to hurt the McCanns in any way they can and this is an opportunity to do just that.   

If that is not the reason  - then what is it based on?     It can't be on Amarals brilliant handling of the case as he was removed from it by his own Portuguese authorities.

So they're liars and abnormal people now? In your opinion, of course.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2015, 01:14:55 PM
So they're liars and abnormal people now? In your opinion, of course.

It doesn't seem to have occurred to benice and other mccann supporters that people do have a mind of their own, and after viewing the evidence available don't believe the mccanns accounts of events.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 14, 2015, 01:16:22 PM
Media reports on the official ruling to archive the case, which had taken into account all of the information known at the time (not just cherry-picked details), came to a different conclusion.


British media reports are mere chip paper...worthless. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 14, 2015, 01:18:49 PM
On your second point, Amaral's publishers might have had more reasons to seek legal redress than Amaral himself over amateur translations... The publishers would have known that it was extremely unlikely that they could have sold the rights to any anglophone country. If that's the reasoning behind not bothering, then Amaral wouldn't have got his royalties in any case.

Could it not simply be the case that Amaral was genuinely interested in finding Maddie rather than filling the coffers?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 14, 2015, 01:33:49 PM
Could it not simply be the case that Amaral was genuinely interested in finding Maddie rather than filling the coffers?

Of course, Angelo. But how has he contributed to "finding her" by insisting that she died on 3 May and that her parents are complicit with only cherry-picked details from the files, uncorroborated hearsay, disregard for potential language barriers, disregard for the reports of Grime / Harrison, and the forensic lab reports, etc., when his main motivation, as he said himself, was to defend his "honour"?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2015, 01:36:03 PM
Could it not simply be the case that Amaral was genuinely interested in finding Maddie rather than filling the coffers?

I think Amaral wanted his book in English all over The Internet, since he could't get it published in English.  But I'm not sure how he could have thought that this would help to find Madeleine.
Find Madeleine where?  Alive or dead?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 14, 2015, 01:55:21 PM
Could it not simply be the case that Amaral was genuinely interested in finding Maddie rather than filling the coffers?

His actions following his publishing success were to splash money around - the Jag, the earring, the parties....

Had his motivation been as you suggest, he could have adopted other approaches.  Such as donating the profits to his book to a suitable charity. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: LeanneBaulch on May 14, 2015, 01:56:30 PM
Hi Alfred, Ben Perrin from The Sun Newspaper asked if I would give him an interview when the fund reaches £25K. Hope this clears up some confusion.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 02:27:25 PM
Could it not simply be the case that Amaral was genuinely interested in finding Maddie rather than filling the coffers?

Scarcely.

According to Amaral, Madeleine is definitely dead
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 14, 2015, 02:32:51 PM
If Amaral has justified grounds to substantiate an appeal (and I expect that he will find something to quibble), that's fine by me.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 14, 2015, 02:45:09 PM
Hi Alfred, Ben Perrin from The Sun Newspaper asked if I would give him an interview when the fund reaches £25K. Hope this clears up some confusion.

Ahhh. Seeing as you're here: Are the funds raised going directly to the original fund set up via PjGA?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: LeanneBaulch on May 14, 2015, 02:48:16 PM
Ahhh. Seeing as you're here: Are the funds raised going directly to the original fund set up via PjGA?

Yes they are, all funds are deposited directly to the PJGA bank account. We have now raised £16,000.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 14, 2015, 02:49:04 PM
Hi Alfred, Ben Perrin from The Sun Newspaper asked if I would give him an interview when the fund reaches £25K. Hope this clears up some confusion.

Hi Leanne. Were you surprised at the response to your fundraiser?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 14, 2015, 02:52:08 PM
Yes they are, all funds are deposited directly to the PJGA bank account. We have now raised £16,000.

Ok. Thanks for that reply.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 14, 2015, 02:53:28 PM
Was that before or after it while they were attempting to take Amaral down?

I'm sorry Angelo, Mr Amaral did not need anyone's help, he did an excellent job of taking himself down as I think contemplation of just one aspect of his life is considered and that is his criminal conviction and his failed appeal against it.
It remains to see if he makes it three in a row.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: LeanneBaulch on May 14, 2015, 02:54:17 PM
Hi Leanne. Were you surprised at the response to your fundraiser?

In a way, yes ..I didn't expect the MSM to report on the fund.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 14, 2015, 02:57:58 PM
In a way, yes ..I didn't expect the MSM to report on the fund.

The Sun article certainly helped it along by saying donations were being made by 'trolls'  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: LeanneBaulch on May 14, 2015, 03:01:41 PM
The Sun article certainly helped it along by saying donations were being made by 'trolls'  @)(++(*

I'm not sure that was their intention, but it certainly gave the fund a boost.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2015, 03:02:46 PM
The Sun article certainly helped it along by saying donations were being made by 'trolls'  @)(++(*

We will keep this unbiased.  If you please.

Goncalo Amaral Confirms He Will Appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 14, 2015, 03:06:26 PM
I'm not sure that was their intention, but it certainly gave the fund a boost.

Do you have any idea how much will actually be needed for an appeal to go ahead, and if an appeal will be allowed?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: LeanneBaulch on May 14, 2015, 03:11:50 PM
Do you have any idea how much will actually be needed for an appeal to go ahead, and if an appeal will be allowed?

I am not certain, but I believe the appeal process could cost around £40,000. I strongly believe the appeal will be allowed, there is no reason for it not to.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 14, 2015, 03:12:35 PM
In this country it would probably be funded from legal aid taxation to which you contribute.
So the notion that those who contribute to the defence of criminals are abnormal ?...................fill in the rest yourself.

In Britain I imagine one would be hard pressed to receive legal aid in a civil case if one had any sort of income at all, I believe there are similar restrictions in force in Portugal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 03:15:46 PM
In England, legal aid is unavailable for libel actions.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2015, 03:17:14 PM
I am not certain, but I believe the appeal process could cost around £40,000. I strongly believe the appeal will be allowed, there is no reason for it not to.

you say you strongly believe...do you have any knowledge of Portuguese law and what his grounds will be
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 03:17:41 PM
I am not certain, but I believe the appeal process could cost around £40,000. I strongly believe the appeal will be allowed, there is no reason for it not to.

Do you have expert legal opinion to substantiate that view?

Davel got there before me ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 14, 2015, 03:18:29 PM
It doesn't seem to have occurred to benice and other mccann supporters that people do have a mind of their own, and after viewing the evidence available don't believe the mccanns accounts of events.

That is probably the reason why the job of collecting evidence should be left to those with the expertise and professionalism to do so.  Baying mobs are never the answer to complex legal cases.

If Mr Amaral is allowed his day in court, it would be worth remembering that Madeleine McCann's parents will be represented also.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 14, 2015, 03:22:02 PM
... perhaps that is what Mr Amaral hopes from stringing out his appeal process particularly since he has never appeared to keen to conclude proceedings throughout the process.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: LeanneBaulch on May 14, 2015, 03:26:10 PM
you say you strongly believe...do you have any knowledge of Portuguese law and what his grounds will be

It is my belief, after analysing the court report, it was very much in favour of Goncalo. I am not privy to any of the information relating to the appeal, although even if I was, I don't think discussing it on an open forum is advisable.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on May 14, 2015, 03:27:23 PM
In a way, yes ..I didn't expect the MSM to report on the fund.

Leanne,   how do you feel about people putting a message out on Madeleine's birthday asking for donations to celebrate her birthday?     Did this upset you at all?

I even saw message saying 'help Madeleine'   how a donation to a fund set up for a Police Officer who wrote Madeleine off would help Madeleine,  I really do not know,   could you tell me?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: LeanneBaulch on May 14, 2015, 03:32:01 PM
Leanne,   how do you feel about people putting a message out on Madeleine's birthday asking for donations to celebrate her birthday?     Did this upset you at all?

I even saw message saying 'help Madeleine'   how a donation to a fund set up for a Police Officer who wrote Madeleine off would help Madeleine,  I really do not know,   could you tell me?

The purpose of the fund is very clear, the reason people choose to donate is down to them. I found the messages left to be very kind, especially towards Madeleine. People are standing with Goncalo, to see justice served for Madeleine. He is the one man that has stood by his beliefs, in order to get the truth for Madeleine McCann, and I believe will continue to do so.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 14, 2015, 03:32:50 PM
It is my belief, after analysing the court report, it was very much in favour of Goncalo. I am not privy to any of the information relating to the appeal, although even if I was, I don't think discussing it on an open forum is advisable.

Do you have an opinion on those who use other's names on their contribution?   Isabel Duarte Madeleine McCann's parents lawyer for one.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2015, 03:36:10 PM
The purpose of the fund is very clear, the reason people choose to donate is down to them. I found the messages left to be very kind, especially towards Madeleine. People are standing with Goncalo, to see justice served for Madeleine. He is the one man that has stood by his beliefs, in order to get the truth for Madeleine McCann, and I believe will continue to do so.

His beliefs happen to be wrong and based on no evidence according to the Portuguese archiving report. his actions have actually denied Maddie justice. Even sceptics on here understand he misunderstood the evidence.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2015, 03:38:16 PM
As regards the Sun ...if they do write an article I doubt very much it will be sympathetic to the fund and much more likely to further expose amaral for the lies he has told
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: LeanneBaulch on May 14, 2015, 03:46:03 PM
Do you have an opinion on those who use other's names on their contribution?   Isabel Duarte Madeleine McCann's parents lawyer for one.

That donation was made anonymous.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2015, 03:49:42 PM
His beliefs happen to be wrong and based on no evidence according to the Portuguese archiving report. his actions have actually denied Maddie justice. Even sceptics on here understand he misunderstood the evidence.

'His beliefs happen to be wrong...'


When has the accidental death theory been disproved ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 14, 2015, 03:50:19 PM
His beliefs happen to be wrong and based on no evidence according to the Portuguese archiving report. his actions have actually denied Maddie justice. Even sceptics on here understand he misunderstood the evidence.

Please feel free to speak for yourself, but if I am what you call a 'sceptic' I would ask you not to speak for me. According to the judge the evidence in Amaral's book was the same, on the whole, as that in the files. His conclusions were also not his alone, they were and are shared by others. The reason the judge found against him had less to do with the theory proposed in his book and more to do with whether he should, given his profession, have a) used the evidence in the files and b) failed to uphold the presumption of innocence.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2015, 03:51:59 PM
'His beliefs happen to be wrong...'


When has the accidental death theory been disproved ?

his belief that the dogs prove Maddie died in the apartment...his belief of a dna match in the car....amaral got it wrong
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 14, 2015, 03:53:08 PM
Please feel free to speak for yourself, but if I am what you call a 'sceptic' I would ask you not to speak for me. According to the judge the evidence in Amaral's book was the same, on the whole, as that in the files. His conclusions were also not his alone, they were and are shared by others. The reason the judge found against him had less to do with the theory proposed in his book and more to do with whether he should, given his profession, have a) used the evidence in the files and b) failed to uphold the presumption of innocence.

WOW!!! is that the basis of Mr Amaral's appeal.  He really ought to have read the final report as opposed to the interim one.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on May 14, 2015, 03:55:49 PM
The purpose of the fund is very clear, the reason people choose to donate is down to them. I found the messages left to be very kind, especially towards Madeleine. People are standing with Goncalo, to see justice served for Madeleine. He is the one man that has stood by his beliefs, in order to get the truth for Madeleine McCann, and I believe will continue to do so.

There you see you make the same mistake as Amaral  'in order to get the truth for Madeleine McCann'   There is NO PROOF she is dead,  it was Amaral's theory it was NOT automatically the TRUTH.

Of course he has stood by his beliefs,   he wants to sell his book doesn't he.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2015, 03:58:50 PM
Please feel free to speak for yourself, but if I am what you call a 'sceptic' I would ask you not to speak for me. According to the judge the evidence in Amaral's book was the same, on the whole, as that in the files. His conclusions were also not his alone, they were and are shared by others. The reason the judge found against him had less to do with the theory proposed in his book and more to do with whether he should, given his profession, have a) used the evidence in the files and b) failed to uphold the presumption of innocence.

the fact that you say his findings were on the whole the same admits that they were not the same......the archiving report said there was no evidence against the mccanns
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 14, 2015, 04:05:13 PM
WOW!!! is that the basis of Mr Amaral's appeal.  He really ought to have read the final report as opposed to the interim one.

I have no idea what the basis of the appeal will be, but I know what the judgement was about.  The conclusion found that he used his position for material for the book and he broke the terms of his position as an ex policeman when he accused them.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 14, 2015, 04:14:29 PM
I have no idea what the basis of the appeal will be, but I know what the judgement was about.  The conclusion found that he used his position for material for the book and he broke the terms of his position as an ex policeman when he accused them.

Then I imagine that is exactly what his legal team will have to seek leave to appeal on and nothing else.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 14, 2015, 06:38:19 PM
I wonder who encouraged him in his enterprises...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 14, 2015, 07:04:22 PM
So where are we?

1. Has it been confirmed that he has appealed? (I expect so, but I haven't seen any reliable confirmation yet)-
2. If he has, what are the points of contention?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2015, 07:11:41 PM
So where are we?

1. Has it been confirmed that he has appealed? (I expect so, but I haven't seen any reliable confirmation yet)-
2. If he has, what are the points of contention?

Stephens confirmed it and Montclair has explained the grounds
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2015, 07:54:01 PM
It seems we have something else to look forward to...an article in the Sun about amaral's fund...it should be hilarious
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2015, 08:00:43 PM
It seems we have something else to look forward to...an article in the Sun about amaral's fund...it should be hilarious

Ah yes, the most renowned newspaper in the world for t##s. *&*%£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 14, 2015, 10:32:36 PM
With regard to the appeal system:

Within a period of 30 days (in this case, the judge gave 40 days), the appellant presents his appeal of the ruling, along with his reasons for the appeal, he can present arguments based on law and/or fact. The appeal is presented a quo, to the court (the judge who pronounced the first ruling).

The judge who pronounced the verdict analyses the application and reads the motivations. If, after reading them, the judge decides to maintain the original decision, the judge then analyses the requirements for presenting an appeal:

- If the decision is susceptible to appeal (this one is);
- If it is presented on time;
- If the person who appeals has the legitimacy to do so;
- If he has paid the "taxa de justiça" (the legal costs).

If these requirements have been fulfilled, the judge pronounces the official communication (despacho) of the admission of the appeal, informing that all of the requirements have been fulfilled, and the acts are sent to the Tribunal da Relaçao.

If the judge does not consider the appellant's arguments valid, she simply maintains her sentence, but she is required to send the appeal to the higher court if the appellant fulfills the objective requirements above. The judge has the possibility of changing her verdict.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2015, 10:34:39 PM
With regard to the appeal system:

Within a period of 30 days (in this case, the judge gave 40 days), the appellant presents his appeal of the ruling, along with his reasons for the appeal, he can present arguments based on law and/or fact. The appeal is presented a quo, to the court (the judge who pronounced the first ruling).

The judge who pronounced the verdict analyses the application and reads the motivations. If, after reading them, the judge decides to maintain the original decision, the judge then analyses the requirements for presenting an appeal:

- If the decision is susceptible to appeal (this one is);
- If it is presented on time;
- If the person who appeals has the legitimacy to do so;
- If he has paid the "taxa de justiça" (the legal costs).

If these requirements have been fulfilled, the judge pronounces the official communication (despacho) of the admission of the appeal, informing that all of the requirements have been fulfilled, and the acts are sent to the Tribunal da Relaçao.

If the judge does not consider the appellant's arguments valid, she simply maintains her sentence, but she is required to send the appeal to the higher court if the appellant fulfills the objective requirements above. The judge has the possibility of changing her verdict.
so is it basically just putting a stamp on a letter
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 10:35:43 PM
With regard to the appeal system:

Within a period of 30 days (in this case, the judge gave 40 days), the appellant presents his appeal of the ruling, along with his reasons for the appeal, he can present arguments based on law and/or fact. The appeal is presented a quo, to the court (the judge who pronounced the first ruling).

The judge who pronounced the verdict analyses the application and reads the motivations. If, after reading them, the judge decides to maintain the original decision, the judge then analyses the requirements for presenting an appeal:

- If the decision is susceptible to appeal (this one is);
- If it is presented on time;
- If the person who appeals has the legitimacy to do so;
- If he has paid the "taxa de justiça" (the legal costs).

If these requirements have been fulfilled, the judge pronounces the official communication (despacho) of the admission of the appeal, informing that all of the requirements have been fulfilled, and the acts are sent to the Tribunal da Relaçao.

If the judge does not consider the appellant's arguments valid, she simply maintains her sentence, but she is required to send the appeal to the higher court if the appellant fulfills the objective requirements above. The judge has the possibility of changing her verdict.

So Amaral may be allowed to appeal.

Or he may not.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 14, 2015, 10:38:52 PM
So Amaral may be allowed to appeal.

Or he may not.

Davel understood!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 15, 2015, 07:30:31 AM
With regard to the appeal system:

Within a period of 30 days (in this case, the judge gave 40 days), the appellant presents his appeal of the ruling, along with his reasons for the appeal, he can present arguments based on law and/or fact. The appeal is presented a quo, to the court (the judge who pronounced the first ruling).

The judge who pronounced the verdict analyses the application and reads the motivations. If, after reading them, the judge decides to maintain the original decision, the judge then analyses the requirements for presenting an appeal:

- If the decision is susceptible to appeal (this one is);
- If it is presented on time;
- If the person who appeals has the legitimacy to do so;
- If he has paid the "taxa de justiça" (the legal costs).

If these requirements have been fulfilled, the judge pronounces the official communication (despacho) of the admission of the appeal, informing that all of the requirements have been fulfilled, and the acts are sent to the Tribunal da Relaçao.

If the judge does not consider the appellant's arguments valid, she simply maintains her sentence, but she is required to send the appeal to the higher court if the appellant fulfills the objective requirements above. The judge has the possibility of changing her verdict.


Why do you think Amaral's specified grounds of appeal will be automatically accepted?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 15, 2015, 07:58:34 AM
Why do you think Amaral's specified grounds of appeal will be automatically accepted?

Wait and see ferryman.

After all, you're not worried an appeal could reverse the decision are you ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 15, 2015, 08:06:30 AM
A few bits from the Chambers site:

(With thanks to Carana).

Read down to the part I underline.

It suggests that while there is an automatic right of appeal, there is not an automatic presumption that the specified grounds of appeal will be accepted.

ETA: penultimate sentence of the quote.

1.3 Costs

During the proceedings both parties are required to make payments on account for costs (calculated by reference to the amount in dispute) and are also responsible for the payment of their own expenses and their own lawyers’ fees.

When the court renders its decision, it determines the total amount of costs (calculated by reference to the amount in dispute and considering, amongst other criteria, the conduct of the parties and the complexity of the matter) and the proportion of costs to be borne by each party, if they are both held partially responsible. If there is only one losing party it shall bear the full amount of the costs. At the end of the proceedings the winning party may request from the losing party the payment of the judicial costs incurred by the former by sending a statement of its costs including the amounts paid for legal tax, expenses, lawyer, and enforcement agent fees. The winning party may request the payment of the expenses and lawyers’ fees, but in the latter case limited to 50% of the amount of court fees paid by all the parties (Cf. Article 533 of the CPC and Articles 25 and 26 of the Judicial Costs Rules).

If the claimant succeeds against multiple defendants, all of them will be liable for paying a certain proportion of the costs and the claimant can only recover costs from each defendant in the same proportion (except if the multiple defendants are considered jointly and severally liable in the court’s judgment).


1.4 Funding

Third-party funding has not been implemented in Portugal and, as far as we know, it has not been used. The principle of contractual freedom provides, though, that legal costs may be paid by a third party, but such party’s right to recover those costs is limited to the agreement reached with the party in the proceedings. In other words, the third party is not entitled to recover such costs within the proceedings, because only the parties to the proceedings are bound by the court order.

An arrangement whereby the lawyer’s fees exclusively depend on the outcome of the dispute is forbidden by the Portuguese Bar Association Code (Cf. Article 101).

Attorneys’ fees may be composed of a fixed part (according to criteria such as the time spent, the complexity of the issue or the importance of the service provided) that may be complemented by a success fee in view of the results obtained.


2.4 The initial complaint

The initial complaint must comply with several requirements (Cf. Article 552 of the CPC) and should:

– Designate the court in which the lawsuit is filed and identify the parties, indicating their names, residence or offices and, if possible, civil and tax identification numbers, professions and workplaces;

– Indicate the business address of the plaintiff’s lawyer;

– Indicate the type of proceedings (“forma de processo”);

– State the cause of action (“causa de pedir”), which includes the facts and legal arguments supporting the claim;

– State the request (“pedido”) at the end of the initial claim;

– State the value of the claim (“valor da causa”);

– Indicate the list of witnesses and other means of evidence.

Relevant evidential documents, as well as any power of attorney, and proof of payment of court fees, must be presented together with the initial claim.

In most cases, the initial claim and annexes are submitted to court through an online platform (referred to as “citius”).

The plaintiff may unilaterally change the cause of action and the request presented in the initial claim (by means of an ad hoc request) in the following cases (Cf. Articles 264 and 265 of the CPC).The plaintiff may:

– Alter the cause of action if there is a confession made by the defendant and accepted by the plaintiff during the lawsuit. The alteration request should be made within ten days of the acceptance;

– Reduce the request for damages. This may be requested at any time;

– Until the end of the trial in the first instance court, extend or develop the request provided that such extension or development is the result of the primary request.

If the defendant agrees, the plaintiff can change the cause of action and/or request at any time in the first court instance and appellate court.

When confronted with supervening facts (occurring after the submission of the initial claim or the defence, or acknowledged by the party only after the submission), any party may present supervening applications (“articulados supervenientes”) to the court, exposing such facts, prior to the end of the trial in first instance.


5.2 Evidence

As a general rule each party has the burden of submitting and proving those facts upon which his/her claim or defence is based (Cf. Article 342 of the CC). Everything that remains uncontested by the other party is considered proven, and only contested facts are subject to the taking of evidence. If a fact is contested by the opponent, the other party must describe the evidence upon which it intends to rely to prove that fact. If necessary, the court will then render an order for the taking of such evidence and evaluate the outcome.

Pursuant to the approval of the new Civil Procedure Code in force as of September, 2013, all evidence should be presented by the parties with their written statements and must be presented before the trial hearing (Cf. Article 552 of the CPC). In principle, after that the proper moment to present any other means of evidence or to modify any of those previously presented will be at a pretrial hearing (“audiência prévia”), typically held between the judge and the opposing counsel to establish the main facts under dispute and to organise (and, if possible, schedule) the next steps of the proceedings.

Prior to the approval of this new statute, the parties often held particular forms of evidence until the trial stage for strategic purposes in order to surprise the counterpart or a certain witness, and it was actually possible to bring new documents to the case at any moment, albeit upon payment of a certain fine.

Now, as from September 2013, the only exceptions to this general rule are:

– Up to 20 days before trial, the parties can alter or increase (in light of the legally established limit) their list of witnesses. Should this be the case, the counterparty will have five days to amend his/her own list of witnesses accordingly. It is noteworthy that, contrary to what occurs with written witness statements or within the pretrial hearing, any and all witnesses resulting from these subsequent amendments will necessarily have to be brought before the court by the appointing party, as it will not be possible to request that the court summon them for this purpose.

In addition, up to 20 days before the trial, the parties can file documents that were not presented along with the written statement they refer to at the risk of a penalty (except when they prove that they were not able to present them before).

After that, and even during the trial, the parties can only present documents that could not have been presented earlier and that only became necessary due to a recent and subsequent event. This was already possible within our former Civil Procedure Code, but the rule was seldom used, as the courts freely admitted the presentation of documents at any time on payment of a fine.

Reports of lawyers, professors or technicians can be presented at any time of the proceedings before first instance courts.

Judicial inspections of the place where the facts that are disputed occurred, or of the things or persons at issue, may also occur at any stage of the proceedings and, especially when suggested by the court, may also be requested and conducted during trial.

In addition, at any time of the proceedings the court itself can summon a witness to testify if it is led to believe that a certain person, who was not called by the parties, may be aware of facts relevant to the case.


7. Damages & Judgment

7.1 Rules relating to damages

The general rule is that the party obliged to compensate for damages must restore the situation to that which would have existed if the event that led to the damage had not occurred (Cf. Article 562 of the CC). Whenever this is not possible, the indemnity should be calculated in terms of monetary value (Cf. Article 566 of the CC).

The compensation should include the loss suffered directly as a result of the event that led to the damages and also any profits that the injured party failed to obtain as a consequence of that event (Cf. Article 564 of the CC). The indemnity may also include future damages, if foreseeable.

Compensation for moral damages may be awarded. The amount of this compensation is determined on grounds of equity (Cf. Article 496 of the CC).

The party claiming for damages does not need to determine the exact extent of the damages. The party may ask for more damages if in the course of the lawsuit it concludes that the existing damages are higher than the ones previously asked for (Cf. Article 569 of the CC).

When the party´s liability is based on negligence and the extent to which they were at fault, the financial situation of the plaintiff and of the defendant and other circumstances justify that option; the indemnity may be determined on grounds of equity in an amount lower than the existing damages (Cf. Article 494 of the CC).

Portuguese law does not allow punitive damages in the same way as is possible under US law. However, Portuguese law allows parties to agree that, in the event of default, the party in default will be bound to pay liquidated damages (meaning the setting of an amount intended to be an estimation of the future damages likely to occur) or real penalty clauses (in the sense of setting an amount which is not intended to be an estimation of future damages but rather a real penalty for default). Both the amounts of liquidated damages and penalty clauses are subject to possible reductions by the court at the request of the party which is bound to pay, if they are found to be manifestly excessive.


7.2 The collection of interest

With regard to contractual liability cases, when the obligation is already due, a party may collect interest based on the period before judgment is entered. However, this does not occur in non-contractual liability cases. In non-contractual liability cases interest is only due from the moment the defendant is summoned.

In both contractual and non-contractual liability cases a party may collect interest accruing after judgment is entered.


8. Appeal

8.1 Grounds for appeal

The general rule is that a party may appeal to the court of second instance (“Tribunal da Relação”) when the value of the lawsuit is higher than EUR5,000 and the decision is unfavourable to the appealing party in an amount higher than EUR2,500.01 (Cf. Article 629 of the CPC). The court of second instance decides both on legal and factual issues.

A party may appeal to the Supreme Court when the value of the lawsuit is higher than EUR30,000 and the decision is unfavourable to the appealing party in an amount higher than EUR15,000.01.

The Supreme Court only rules on legal issues and, in most cases, cannot revoke the second instance judgment concerning the proven facts.

In most cases the parties cannot move to the Supreme Court if the first and the second instance courts have issued identical decisions with similar grounds.

The general rule is that the appeal does not suspend the proceedings unless the appealing party pays a deposit or presents a bank guarantee.

^ Return to Top
8.2 Time limits and triggering events

The general rule is that the appealing party has 30 days to appeal to the higher court in the event that the appeal is to the court of second instance (Cf. Article 638 of the CPC). If the appeal includes the impeachment of the proven facts through a review of the recorded witnesses or party statements, then the appealing party has 40 days to appeal.

However, in some specific cases (e.g. freezing orders) the appealing party has only 15 days to appeal.

The defendant in the appeal always has the same term to present an answer.

The first instance court will then decide whether the appeal should be accepted. If it is accepted, the case is sent to the higher court.

On the basis of historic evidence, it is estimated that the second instance courts take on average between six months and one year to decide an appeal, and that the Supreme Court will take on average three to six months to issue a final decision.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 15, 2015, 08:12:36 AM
'The general rule is that a party may appeal to the court of second instance (“Tribunal da Relação”) when the value of the lawsuit is higher than EUR5,000 and the decision is unfavourable to the appealing party in an amount higher than EUR2,500.01 (Cf. Article 629 of the CPC). The court of second instance decides both on legal and factual issues.

A party may appeal to the Supreme Court when the value of the lawsuit is higher than EUR30,000 and the decision is unfavourable to the appealing party in an amount higher than EUR15,000.01.'

Well that section says a lot.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 15, 2015, 08:17:20 AM
The first instance court will then decide whether the appeal should be accepted. If it is accepted, the case is sent to the higher court.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 15, 2015, 08:21:48 AM
The first instance court will then decide whether the appeal should be accepted. If it is accepted, the case is sent to the higher court.

Amaral has the grounds for an appeal, if for nothing else, but on the size of the 'award' to the mccanns.

Unheralded it seems in Portuguese  legal history.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 15, 2015, 08:50:17 AM
Much of the Chambers extract is what Jean-Pierre was trying to explain.

Article 636 (Article 684-A CPC 1961) - Article 641 (Article 685-C CPC 1961)

Seem to cover the next phase, but I find the legalese hard to fathom in Portuguese and Googlish isn't of much help.



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 09:21:13 AM
The first instance court will then decide whether the appeal should be accepted. If it is accepted, the case is sent to the higher court.
If this was not true then every single case in Portugal would automatically go through an appeals process.  Is that what happens?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 15, 2015, 09:49:23 AM
The first instance court will then decide whether the appeal should be accepted. If it is accepted, the case is sent to the higher court.

The first instance court does not debate the validity of the arguments of the appellant in their decision to send the appeal to the Tribunal da Relação. If the first court maintains their verdict after reading the arguments in the appeal and it is confirmed that the appellant has fulfilled those 4 requirements given in my previous post, then the first instance court has to send the appeal to the higher court.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 15, 2015, 09:54:24 AM
Gonçalo Amaral gave an excellent and intelligent interview. I didn't know that Alípio Ribeiro never received Gonçalo's letter.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 15, 2015, 09:57:58 AM
The first instance court does not debate the validity of the arguments of the appellant in their decision to send the appeal to the Tribunal da Relação. If the first court maintains their verdict after reading the arguments in the appeal and it is confirmed that the appellant has fulfilled those 4 requirements given in my previous post, then the first instance court has to send the appeal to the higher court.

So what I quote is wrong when it says the first instance court makes a decision?

It is merely a rubber-stamping exercise?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2015, 10:09:59 AM
That Mr Amaral is the author of his own misfortune is plain to me ... if others see him as a victim ... is entirely their prerogative.  It won't be my money he will be spending.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 15, 2015, 12:53:03 PM
Soooo.

I'm still wondering what his grounds for appeal might be.

If what Montclair has said is correct, i.e., that he has been granted 40 days, then I presume that he intends to appeal on legal and factual grounds.

I've no idea what facts he might wish to challenge.

On legal grounds, possibly:

1. The amount of damages

2. The notion that his right to freedom of expression is of a higher order than his duty to maintain confidentiality.
I suppose that the a quo judge may allow it, and then it's up to the appeal judges. I could see the point, perhaps, if he was a "whistleblower", but he's not.



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 15, 2015, 06:06:29 PM
I see one person has donated £1000 to Amaral.

Onward and upwards.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on May 16, 2015, 09:38:09 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/Cc5v4Ht.jpg?1)

15 May 2015

snip...

Gonçalo Amaral has announced that he is appealing against the decision that leaves him owing a whopping €600,000 in combined damages and interest payments - but it is no secret that the case has left him financially hamstrung. Thus the rallying of support, both here and in the UK is a life-raft.

Coordinated by a group of friends who have sole use of the money for legal defence costs only, it has quite literally kept him going. “The best proof … is that he has come this far,” one of the fund ‘managers’ told us today. “He wouldn’t have otherwise.” With the “gofundme” appeal started by Leanne Baulch, a young single mother from Birmingham, getting donations from an average of 70 people a day - and nudging ever-closer to its £25,000 target.

Amaral has spoken to Nova Gente magazine about the case that “destroyed his career, his family and his health”, saying “my life is gone. I am only alive due to my heart”. He reveals not only that he will be counter-suing the McCann parents, their “group of friends” and “other people and entities” “in good time” but that, as far as he is concerned, the couple “practised a crime” and were “primarily responsible for their daughter’s disappearance” by leaving their children alone “for more than five nights”.

It is an extraordinary interview published in full on the “Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral” website set up by one of the friends who has fought tirelessly since 2009 for Amaral’s right to freedom of expression. She told us how she is buoyed now by the “incredible response” coming every day from British people who have been described by the UK’s Sun newspaper as “sick trolls”.

The Resident has been following the fund and, as we suggested last week, the comments appearing on it do not seem to fit the profile of trolls in any way at all. Indeed one was so poignant it has spurred Amaral supporters to send it to over 50 British newspapers and media professionals to highlight how strong feelings in the UK are about this eternal “mystery”. Penned by a donor who gave her name as Paula Seddon, it ran as follows: “Kate and Gerry, you damaged the lives of my children when they were small as they thought someone was going to get into their bedroom windows as their catholic school told them your jack-a-nory story and asked them to pray. We had sleepless nights for years and a security routine to check doors and windows before sleep. Their anxiety and distress caused by your lies. I donated £5 back then to the school fund for you as at the time I thought you were genuine human beings. I cuddled and calmed them as I believed the fiction too. I would like to withdraw that money and give to a truth teller. The truth will be told. You cannot hide behind pity statements by calling people trolls and [ censored word ]. People are waking up and realising your story is full of holes and had the real story broke back then, my children would not have been scared or scarred by your lies.” But the day after the message was sent, the UK press ran only with the story that insists the search for missing Madeleine must continue.

Meantime, Amaral’s interview with Nova Gente is being copied, tweeted and sent around the world. As he tells journalist Alexandra Ferreira, he wrote the book that the McCann couple took him to court over as a “way to reply to the humiliation and the offences” that he has been “targeted with”. “Deep down that was it. They say we are incompetent, they say we are a third world police force, drunkards, fat, lazy, etc., and the PJ police does not set out to defend us. Therefore I turned to writing, reporting the investigation that had been carried out, so people could draw their own conclusions.” Asked what remains “unexplained in this case”, he said: “I don’t answer that question. Faced with what was said by the couple after the verdict was known, that they feel stronger, I just feel like saying that only vampires become stronger with their victims’ blood. Like Zeca Afonso sang: ‘They eat everything…’”

www.portugalresident.com/top-british-cop-vows-“maddie-hunt-must-continue”-while-“troll-noise”-reaches-fever-pitch
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2015, 10:01:26 AM
The judge didn't rule on Amaral's thesis, so why should it be addressed by any appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2015, 10:21:50 AM
The judge didn't rule on Amaral's thesis, so why should it be addressed by any appeal?

Mr Amaral's thesis and his blind adherence to it from the beginning, which he attests in his book, is the genesis of today's situation; I don't know how the appeal system works in Portugal, but I imagine if there is argument there will be counter argument.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2015, 10:38:55 AM
There is no guarantee for him that an appeal will save any of his money, because I think that is what it all revolves round now, the award might even be increased.  I think the time of 'credibility' is over for him and it will be interesting to have the view of the court, should it come to that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2015, 10:46:36 AM
Mr Amaral is yet again trying to flood the court of public opinion with the drunken myths his 'documentary' did so much to promote ~ one last spiteful throw of the dice. 

However it is the opinion of the real court that is the deciding factor ~ and I don't see him being able to have that decision overturned; what's more I don't think he does either.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 16, 2015, 10:52:51 AM
The point was raised about whether Amaral's theory has been disproved.

If it has been, that may have an impact on Amaral's appeal ...

A key part of Amaral's theory is that the Smiths saw Gerry carrying Madeleine ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2015, 11:24:04 AM
The point was raised about whether Amaral's theory has been disproved.

If it has been, that may have an impact on Amaral's appeal ...

A key part of Amaral's theory is that the Smiths saw Gerry carrying Madeleine ...

Thanks ferryman ... then his appeal is toast.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2015, 01:05:13 PM
The point was raised about whether Amaral's theory has been disproved.

If it has been, that may have an impact on Amaral's appeal ...

A key part of Amaral's theory is that the Smiths saw Gerry carrying Madeleine ...

The judge didn't give an opinion about the theory so why would the truth or otherwise of it be relevant? There are two points on which the award was made; whether he should have used the case files and whether he should, as a former policeman, have upheld the presumption of innocence of suspects.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 16, 2015, 01:08:52 PM
The judge didn't give an opinion about the theory so why would the truth or otherwise of it be relevant? There are two points on which the award was made; whether he should have used the case files and whether he should, as a former policeman, have upheld the presumption of innocence of suspects.

That the judge considers Amaral's theory disproved is inherent in her judgment.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 16, 2015, 01:18:21 PM
That the judge considers Amaral's theory disproved is inherent in her judgment.


You can believe what you wish, but she didn't make a ruling on it's truth, she just said it hurt the McCanns. Had you or I written it we wouldn't have had to pay anything
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 16, 2015, 01:20:31 PM
You can believe what you wish, but she didn't make a ruling on it's truth, she just said it hurt the McCanns. Had you or I written it we wouldn't have had to pay anything

I guess we must agree to differ on that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 16, 2015, 01:37:58 PM
Thanks ferryman ... then his appeal is toast.

Nothing to do with the appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 16, 2015, 02:30:20 PM
Where did she say that? Isn't there a difference between listing facts that hadn't been proven to the court's satisfaction and categorically ruling that it hadn't impeded the search?

Part of the writ was that the book impeded the search for the child the judge decreed it hadn't been proved suggesting the book did not impede the search.
Tell you what lets delete the last line in my post because it doesn't alter the sense one jot.
i.e wreak as much revenge* on Dr Amaral as is humanly possibly and the key elements remain unknown. See original post.
* is it revenge people are after or a biblical reckoning do you think?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2015, 02:33:32 PM
I think as much as anything which has led to the unravelling of Mr Amaral's theory has been the initiation and the continuation of the search for Madeleine McCann which is being conducted by two highly professional and respected bodies.

If the judge was unable to find for the McCanns on the book ... it may very well have been on her mind when considering what she could find for them ... which may explain the enormity of the sum awarded to them.

Perhaps all will be revealed when the application for the appeal process is put before the courts?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 16, 2015, 02:37:39 PM
I think as much as anything which has led to the unravelling of Mr Amaral's theory has been the initiation and the continuation of the search for Madeleine McCann which is being conducted by two highly professional and respected bodies.

If the judge was unable to find for the McCanns on the book ... it may very well have been on her mind when considering what she could find for them ... which may explain the enormity of the sum awarded to them.

Perhaps all will be revealed when the application for the appeal process is put before the courts?

Is the PJ included in the two? Only 40 years out of a dictatorship and so on. My how the worm has turned.
Equally it may have been on her mind she wanted to go out for dinner.
C'mon you can do better than that surely.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2015, 03:05:53 PM
Is the PJ included in the two? Only 40 years out of a dictatorship and so on. My how the worm has turned.
Equally it may have been on her mind she wanted to go out for dinner.
C'mon you can do better than that surely.

As demonstrated by recent prosecutions ... "the old order changeth yielding place to new" ... which may be why those who cling to the past may well be left standing at the door of the Portuguese Appeal Court.

Not to worry though, I'm sure people will still be desperate to finance appeals to the European Court of Human Rights.  That might indeed put a different complexion on the locus of the book content as it reflects on the McCanns' Human Rights.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 16, 2015, 03:55:28 PM
As demonstrated by recent prosecutions ... "the old order changeth yielding place to new" ... which may be why those who cling to the past may well be left standing at the door of the Portuguese Appeal Court.

Not to worry though, I'm sure people will still be desperate to finance appeals to the European Court of Human Rights.  That might indeed put a different complexion on the locus of the book content as it reflects on the McCanns' Human Rights.

I don't really care. I am waiting for you to address the main of issue of my post:
"When the maximum revenge has been rained down on Dr Amaral and all that is left is his head and boots how will that have benefited the search and investigation"? or is it just about revenge on The Boogah Man?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 16, 2015, 05:56:08 PM
Part of the writ was that the book impeded the search for the child the judge decreed it hadn't been proved suggesting the book did not impede the search.
Tell you what lets delete the last line in my post because it doesn't alter the sense one jot.
i.e wreak as much revenge* on Dr Amaral as is humanly possibly and the key elements remain unknown. See original post.
* is it revenge people are after or a biblical reckoning do you think?

I have no objection if people wish to use their spare cash to support his legal costs.

My objection is that he appears to have used the McCanns - and particularly Madeleine - as collateral damage to avenge his gripe with his hierarchy and the odd UK tabloid that was rude about him.

He could still have licked his wounded pride by writing a book explaining all the difficulties of the investigation without insisting that the little girl was dead - with the implication that there was no point in the public remaining vigilant. Personally, I would have had sympathy for a copper out of his depth - heaven knows, I also felt a bit sorry for Lenny Harper.

Surely a seasoned officer of his rank should have had a thicker skin?

In any case, the PT tabloid media and bloggers were all hailing him as some kind of national superhero and stumbling over each other to give him column inches and bandwidth.




Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2015, 05:59:11 PM
I don't really care. I am waiting for you to address the main of issue of my post:
"When the maximum revenge has been rained down on Dr Amaral and all that is left is his head and boots how will that have benefited the search and investigation"? or is it just about revenge on The Boogah Man?

The law has been enacted ... Mr Amaral intends to appeal the Judge's decision.

Does the delivery of Justice equate with "revenge raining down on DrMr Amaral"????  8)-))) 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 16, 2015, 06:20:09 PM
It'll be interesting to see what will happen to money raised if Amaral is denied leave to appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 16, 2015, 06:28:17 PM
FYI: the last time I looked 118 individuals had made 306 of the donations, ie: 118 members of the Gonc fanclub have made an average of 2.6 separate donations each.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 16, 2015, 06:35:00 PM
One of Gonc's backers has donated a total of £1315 so far...it wasn't you was it Davel...? 8)--))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 16, 2015, 06:36:27 PM
One of Gonc's backers has donated a total of £1315 so far...it wasn't you was it Davel...? 8)--))

I am tempted so that I could leave a message..
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on May 16, 2015, 06:38:10 PM
I am tempted so that I could leave a message..

Aren't we all.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 16, 2015, 06:38:30 PM
I'm far more interested in which points he is likely to appeal...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 16, 2015, 07:46:42 PM
The law has been enacted ... Mr Amaral intends to appeal the Judge's decision.

Does the delivery of Justice equate with "revenge raining down on DrMr Amaral"????  8)-)))

The judge has given a verdict which is open to appeal. I have no quibble with that at all. It seems you and your cohorts do, judging by the ceaseless invective. If it sinks the gentleman because that is the law fair dos I doubt I will lose any sleep or celebrate what ever the outcome.
Lets narrow it down even further and see if you can answer the question the question you are avoiding.
What effect will anything that happens to Dr Amaral have on finding the perpetrators of the crime (if one has been committed) and discovering the fate of Madeleine McCann?
You seem to be interested merely in making less than complimentary remarks about Dr Amaral rather than anything else despite your protestations to the contrary.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 16, 2015, 08:01:24 PM
The case isn't about whether what he said / wrote was materially true or not.

IMO that Nova Gente interview more or less spelled out what his appeal will be about.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on May 16, 2015, 08:47:20 PM
Amaral accuses them (perhaps not latterly) of responsibility for Madeleine's death and of hiding her body/fabricating an abduction plus launching a fraudulent fund in her name ...

Something of a retreat (now)

What changed?

He did understand The Judgement after all.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lyall on May 16, 2015, 08:51:46 PM
Amaral accuses them (perhaps not latterly) of responsibility for Madeleine's death and of hiding her body/fabricating an abduction plus launching a fraudulent fund in her name ...

Something of a retreat (now)

What changed?

I can't speak for him. That's his opinion, based on the evidence. He was a policeman and police don't need to be 100% certain to pass the available evidence to the prosecutors. Neither do courts and juries need to be 100% certain.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 16, 2015, 08:58:10 PM
I can't speak for him. That's his opinion, based on the evidence. He was a policeman and police don't need to be 100% certain to pass the available evidence to the prosecutors. Neither do courts and juries need to be 100% certain.

Policemen don't have to write books of the sort Amaral wrote.

If he hadn't, if he had kept whatever thoughts he expressed strictly confined to the process, he'd be fine (aside, possibly, from breach of secrecy arising from leaks).

He didn't.

He wrote a book.

And he's now in a pickle.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lyall on May 16, 2015, 09:05:45 PM
Policemen don't have to write books of the sort Amaral wrote.

If he hadn't, if he had kept whatever thoughts he expressed strictly confined to the process, he'd be fine (aside, possibly, from breach of secrecy arising from leaks).

He didn't.

He wrote a book.

And he's now in a pickle.

Can't disagree with that, but I'm a bit puzzled about why the 'public officials responsibilities' issue resurfaced seven years later. Presumably this was checked with lawyers before the book was published (at least you'd hope so).

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2015, 09:14:01 PM
The judge has given a verdict which is open to appeal. I have no quibble with that at all. It seems you and your cohorts do, judging by the ceaseless invective. If it sinks the gentleman because that is the law fair dos I doubt I will lose any sleep or celebrate what ever the outcome.
Lets narrow it down even further and see if you can answer the question the question you are avoiding.
What effect will anything that happens to Dr Amaral have on finding the perpetrators of the crime (if one has been committed) and discovering the fate of Madeleine McCann?
You seem to be interested merely in making less than complimentary remarks about Dr Amaral rather than anything else despite your protestations to the contrary.

I think you mistake me.

Mr Amaral has had a considerable award made against him in a Portuguese Court ~ he is not happy about this and wishes to appeal the Judge's decision.

I have no problem with that.

I have no problem with those who wish to donate financial aid to assist that appeal.

If you can pinpoint a word which I have typed about Mr Amaral which is not  documented and true you may have a complaint. 
That his conduct is such that the truth is considered by you "less than complimentary" may owe more to what he has done, rather than my telling of it.

I am interested in what grounds he may have to appeal the judge's decision; I am interested in whether or not the appeal will be allowed; I am interested in what is allowed to be said during the appeal process and who is allowed to say it.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on May 17, 2015, 12:06:13 AM
If Mr Amaral wins the appeal it does not solve the case.
Instead his theory needs some serious reworking to remove some incorrect deductions.
Some of them are so simple that a child could solve them, here's just one example, by analogy
"a very accurate police dog detects a suspicious substance on X's clothing, but X truthfully denies ever handling of or knowledge of that substance, solve it".
A piece of cake for a child, because they can see that there are two different states for clothes.
But the PJ and LP team, and forum peeps, saw only one state and were blind to the other. Illogical is too polite a word to use, because someone was incorrectly made an official suspect based in large part on exactly this error of thinking.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 17, 2015, 08:44:05 AM
The judgment ruling that Amaral has libelled the McCanns was handed down on 28 April.

It's now 17th May.

Amaral has had half his allotted time of 40 days to lodge his appeal.

By my reckoning he's got till roughly the first week in June to get his appeal in.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 17, 2015, 08:50:12 AM
The judgment ruling that Amaral has libelled the McCanns was handed down on 28 April.

It's now 17th May.

Amaral has had half his allotted time of 40 days to lodge his appeal.

By my reckoning he's got till roughly the first week in June to get his appeal in.

Don't worry ferryman.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 17, 2015, 09:33:19 AM
Don't worry ferryman.

I don't think anyone is worrying Stephen.

Just wondering which reason Amaral will choose this time to try to spin out the time.   ?{)(**
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 17, 2015, 09:52:15 AM
The judgment ruling that Amaral has libelled the McCanns was handed down on 28 April.

It's now 17th May.

Amaral has had half his allotted time of 40 days to lodge his appeal.

By my reckoning he's got till roughly the first week in June to get his appeal in.

Are the days calendar days or working days? If they are working days, he has around two months.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 17, 2015, 09:55:29 AM
The judgment ruling that Amaral has libelled the McCanns was handed down on 28 April.

It's now 17th May.

Amaral has had half his allotted time of 40 days to lodge his appeal.

By my reckoning he's got till roughly the first week in June to get his appeal in.

The ruling never stated that Gonçalo Amaral had libelled the McCanns. Get it straight.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 17, 2015, 09:56:29 AM
The ruling never stated that Gonçalo Amaral had libelled the McCanns. Get it straight.

I think I have.

I think you need to.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 17, 2015, 10:13:39 AM
The judgment ruling that Amaral has libelled the McCanns was handed down on 28 April.

It's now 17th May.

Amaral has had half his allotted time of 40 days to lodge his appeal.

By my reckoning he's got till roughly the first week in June to get his appeal in.
Going on his previous track record of spinning things out for as long as possible he'll probably leave it until the last minute.  After all, there's no real hurry is there?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 17, 2015, 10:35:58 AM
The ruling never stated that Gonçalo Amaral had libelled the McCanns. Get it straight.

II . The conflict in this case between freedom of expression and the right to good name and reputation of the claimants.

 MATTERS TO BE DECIDED

In view of the requests made, the decision on the merits essentially depends on the answer to the following question :

- Are the book written by the defendant Goncalo Amaral, the adaptation of this book for the audiovisual documentary and the interview given by the same defendant illicit /anti-juridical according to article 484° of the Civil Procedure Code ? *

In response attempt will travel the following discussion levels :

I. the content of the book, the documentary and the interview. 

II . The conflict in this case between freedom of expression and the right to good name and reputation of the claimants.

If the conclusion is unlawfulness, it will matter to establish :
 
Page 32

III. If damages have been proven that are in a causal relationship with the unlawful acts and, if so , what is the amount with which they should be compensated.

IV. If the claims made by the plaintiffs in the appended action are appropriate for removing the effects of the committed crimes.

Finally it will be important to close the discussion with analyses of the procedural conducts of the parties in the light of the premises of bad faith litigation.

* "... of the Civil Procedure Code"? Shouldn't that be the Civil Code? That's not a mistake by Anne G, it's in the original.


ARTIGO 484º

(Ofensa do crédito ou do bom nome)


Quem afirmar ou difundir um facto capaz de prejudicar o crédito ou o bom nome de qualquer pessoa, singular ou colectiva, responde pelos danos causados.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 17, 2015, 11:38:53 AM
An Appellate Court won't tolerate such nonsense, that's the difference.

You know that, and I know that, but I wonder if Amaral knows it.

He has used all of the excuses above to delay proceedings in the past. 

For a man supposedly confident of a favourable eventual outcome, with an "ace up his sleeve" and plans to sue the McCanns and friends in the UK, he has not shown much urgency in matters. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 17, 2015, 12:50:41 PM
McCanns 'won' on a technicality, hardly justification for claiming they have in any way been vindicated! OR absolved in Maddies disappearance. I also wonder if the Jiudge made the claim so high in order that Amaral could appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 17, 2015, 01:14:20 PM
McCanns 'won' on a technicality, hardly justification for claiming they have in any way been vindicated! OR absolved in Maddies disappearance. I also wonder if the Jiudge made the claim so high in order that Amaral could appeal.

I think the McCanns won on far more than a technicality ... I thought the counts on which the Judge made her ruling were perfectly clear ... if it pleases you to think otherwise that is your prerogative.

I think the Judge may have considered the amount awarded in damages was commensurate with the damage done.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 17, 2015, 01:18:15 PM
McCanns 'won' on a technicality, hardly justification for claiming they have in any way been vindicated! OR absolved in Maddies disappearance. I also wonder if the Jiudge made the claim so high in order that Amaral could appeal.


What "technicality" are you referring to?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 17, 2015, 01:51:16 PM

What "technicality" are you referring to?

Oh you know...

Anyway  how did that libel trial go? well they never got a penny for liable! or did the judge declare the book the cause of their 'suffering' or the search to be impeded.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 17, 2015, 02:19:35 PM
McCanns 'won' on a technicality, hardly justification for claiming they have in any way been vindicated! OR absolved in Maddies disappearance. I also wonder if the Jiudge made the claim so high in order that Amaral could appeal.

He can try asking for more time.  But as Angelo has pointed out above, the appellate courts impose strict time limits on the filing of appeals, for obvious reasons.

The judgement was quite clear, and I am not sure Amaral pleading to the court that it was only a technicality and therefore the rules don't apply would find much favour  8)--))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 17, 2015, 02:28:50 PM
Is, maybe, the header of this thread a little misleading?

He has confirmed he will apply for permission to appeal.

Hasn't he?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 17, 2015, 02:37:18 PM
Is, maybe, the header of this thread a little misleading?

He has confirmed he will apply for permission to appeal.

Hasn't he?

I don't know - it seems so, but it is third party comment. 

He has the right to appeal.  And has either until the 28th May or the 8th June to lodge his appeal for the court to consider. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 17, 2015, 02:43:30 PM
I don't know - it seems so, but it is third party comment. 

He has the right to appeal.  And has either until the 28th May or the 8th June to lodge his appeal for the court to consider.

What I mean is that he doesn't have an automatic right to consider that his request to appeal will be accepted.

But he does have an automatic right to lodge the request.

Is that correct?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 17, 2015, 03:06:51 PM
                        8(0(*        Nothing at all to say about Mr Amaral's appeal?

I thought I had done?
Appeal processes are normal at law.
Which bit of : "whichever way it goes will not cause me to lose sleep or celebrate and whatever happens it will have no material effect on finding out what happened to the child or apprehending any guilty parties", do you fail to understand?
Amarals appeal etc is a side show to the main event
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 17, 2015, 03:11:18 PM
What I mean is that he doesn't have an automatic right to consider that his request to appeal will be accepted.

But he does have an automatic right to lodge the request.

Is that correct?

My understanding, FM, is that he can file his intention, follow it up with the grounds, etc., and unless it's patently vexatious or lacking in basic points, it should normally be passed on.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 17, 2015, 03:15:58 PM
I don't quite understand the extent of his potential legal fees... isn't his daughter a lawyer? Or was that another myth?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 17, 2015, 04:38:54 PM
I don't think anyone is worrying Stephen.

Just wondering which reason Amaral will choose this time to try to spin out the time.   ?{)(**

"I am entitled to 40 days so I will use 40 days"; sounds reasonable to me.
Spinning it out would be if he asked for an extension to time. I don't suppose we will be too surprised if that happens. For someone down on his uppers he don't seem too perturbed about when his accounts will be "de-sequestered".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 17, 2015, 04:50:00 PM
"I am entitled to 40 days so I will use 40 days"; sounds reasonable to me.
Spinning it out would be if he asked for an extension to time. I don't suppose we will be too surprised if that happens. For someone down on his uppers he don't seem too perturbed about when his accounts will be "de-sequestered".

sounds reasonable to me too...however... I don't have to answer these stupid questions so I won't sounds unreasonable to many on here
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 17, 2015, 04:53:30 PM
"I am entitled to 40 days so I will use 40 days"; sounds reasonable to me.
Spinning it out would be if he asked for an extension to time. I don't suppose we will be too surprised if that happens. For someone down on his uppers he don't seem too perturbed about when his accounts will be "de-sequestered".

I wouldn't imagine the Appeal Court would be too happy with proceedings being dragged out any longer than needs be ... as JP has pointed out because it is unfair to the successful litigants ... a delay may not be considered ... so it may be 'go for it or forget it'.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 17, 2015, 05:04:03 PM
Well JP, Whatever his reason he is entitled to ask for more time. McCanns 'won' on a technicality, hardly justification for claiming they have in any way been vindicated! OR absolved in Maddies disappearance. I also wonder if the Jiudge made the claim so high in order that Amaral could appeal.

Why would he need more time?He and his lawyers know perfectly well when they have to submit the appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 17, 2015, 05:37:11 PM
"I am entitled to 40 days so I will use 40 days"; sounds reasonable to me.
Spinning it out would be if he asked for an extension to time. I don't suppose we will be too surprised if that happens. For someone down on his uppers he don't seem too perturbed about when his accounts will be "de-sequestered".

If that should be the case (and he does have form for trying to delay things) then he may well find its too late.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 17, 2015, 05:50:10 PM
If that should be the case (and he does have form for trying to delay things) then he may well find its too late.

I can't see any reason to spin out getting an appeal registered... unfortunate incidents delaying the actual hearings in court might be a different issue.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 17, 2015, 06:06:15 PM
I wouldn't imagine the Appeal Court would be too happy with proceedings being dragged out any longer than needs be ... as JP has pointed out because it is unfair to the successful litigants ... a delay may not be considered ... so it may be 'go for it or forget it'.

I think you missed the point.
If 40 days is allowed to make a submission then there is no legitimate beef against all of the allotted time being used and no reasonable accusation of  spinning it out can be made. What do you think "you have 40 days from "x date" to make your submission" means?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 17, 2015, 06:12:43 PM
What would be helpful is to specify a date by which the appeal must be submitted, rather than a time-frame.

That removes uncertainty about weekends, bank holidays and all the rest, and makes absolutely clear what must be done and when by.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 17, 2015, 06:46:02 PM
What would be helpful is to specify a date by which the appeal must be submitted, rather than a time-frame.

That removes uncertainty about weekends, bank holidays and all the rest, and makes absolutely clear what must be done and when by.

The time runs from the date of the decision by the court, not from the date the ruling is published.  So the appeal must be filed by 28th May.  Or if 40 days then the 40 days falls on the 7th June, so Amaral will have until close of business on the 8th June.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 17, 2015, 07:20:22 PM
The time runs from the date of the decision by the court, not from the date the ruling is published.  So the appeal must be filed by 28th May.  Or if 40 days then the 40 days falls on the 7th June, so Amaral will have until close of business on the 8th June.

Crystal-clear.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 17, 2015, 10:12:56 PM
I think you missed the point.
If 40 days is allowed to make a submission then there is no legitimate beef against all of the allotted time being used and no reasonable accusation of  spinning it out can be made. What do you think "you have 40 days from "x date" to make your submission" means?

Oh I doubt he will take it up the line ... after all he must be desperate to get back into Court to have this horrible mistake sorted out to his satisfaction.
                                                              ?>)()<
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 17, 2015, 11:32:19 PM
Oh I doubt he will take it up the line ... after all he must be desperate to get back into Court to have this horrible mistake sorted out to his satisfaction.
                                                              ?>)()<

This post does not make any sense relative to what I posted.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 17, 2015, 11:36:25 PM
...and still a child is missing. Not Amarals fault at all.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 18, 2015, 07:03:28 AM
Oh I doubt he will take it up the line ... after all he must be desperate to get back into Court to have this horrible mistake sorted out to his satisfaction.
                                                              ?>)()<

Wrong person.

The 'terrible mistake'.

Solely the mccanns. %£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**#
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 18, 2015, 02:58:35 PM
Soooo....

Has it been confirmed that he has announced that he's appealing?

I presume so.

Sixty-something pages later...

Next question: based on which arguments of law or fact?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 18, 2015, 03:49:25 PM
Soooo....

Has it been confirmed that he has announced that he's appealing?

I presume so.

Sixty-something pages later...

Next question: based on which arguments of law or fact?

I don't think it has yet been confirmed that he has had leave to appeal ... I believe he intends to if allowed ... so I think everything else is just our 63 page speculation.

Not bad going that ... 63 pages ... and not a dog in sight!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: DCI on May 18, 2015, 06:08:57 PM
Soooo....

Has it been confirmed that he has announced that he's appealing?

I presume so.

Sixty-something pages later...

Next question: based on which arguments of law or fact?

What is he waiting for? It is now 3 weeks, since his announcement!
Don't know why he should be searching for a lawyer, isn't his daughter one?   £4%4£ I'm sure she would give him a discount or even a Pro bono.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 19, 2015, 08:46:43 AM
What is he waiting for? It is now 3 weeks, since his announcement!
Don't know why he should be searching for a lawyer, isn't his daughter one?   £4%4£ I'm sure she would give him a discount or even a Pro bono.

You did know that lawyers tend to specialise in different aspects of the law didn't you DCI.

That's why the McCanns needed Angus McBride, Michael Caplan, Adam Tudor et al.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 05:28:22 PM
Almost there;

£20,025 of £25k
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 05:40:32 PM
Almost there;

£20,025 of £25k

Excellent news.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 05:43:40 PM
Almost there;

£20,025 of £25k
I thought he needed 40 grand?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 05:51:18 PM
I thought he needed 40 grand?

Did you?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2015, 05:58:05 PM
Excellent news.

I've been interested in watching the total rising but I have been even more interested in the comments being made.

Anyone able to say what amount the appeal has attracted from Portuguese donations ... or is that still a secret?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 20, 2015, 06:06:37 PM
Did you?

Interesting. 

Thoughts on the subject:

To put together an appeal should not cost very much - rough estimate £10k.

Court fees will need to be paid on top of this but again Portuguese court fees are fairly modest - a few hundred euros.

I am therefore assuming that the bulk of the money will be required to settle outstanding bills from the original action, or the court will require a deposit.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 06:06:44 PM
Excellent news.

That's really good news. I eventually had a look at the page, thought that many many people must have donated to reach that amount, as most donations were for £5 and £10 and thereabouts. All good IMO, as I wasn't personally convinced the Mccanns had a strong, moral, or believable case or that the damages awarded to them for his writing his book were fair by any stretch. Onwards and upwards for his appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 06:09:43 PM
Did you?
Yes, it was a figure mooted on here a few weeks back I thought - I could be mistaken of course....  Anyway, I'd just like to add my voice of congratulation and delight at this heart-warming news... 8)--))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 06:12:06 PM
That's really good news. I eventually had a look at the page, thought that many many people must have donated to reach that amount, as most donations were for £5 and £10 and thereabouts. All good IMO, as I wasn't personally convinced the Mccanns had a strong, moral, or believable case or that the damages awarded to them for his writing his book were fair by any stretch. Onwards and upwards for his appeal.

Indeed Mercury.

The amount the mccanns awarded was gross and quite unprecedented in Portuguese Legal  history.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 06:12:55 PM
Interesting. 

Thoughts on the subject:

To put together an appeal should not cost very much - rough estimate £10k.

Court fees will need to be paid on top of this but again Portuguese court fees are fairly modest - a few hundred euros.

I am therefore assuming that the bulk of the money will be required to settle outstanding bills from the original action, or the court will require a deposit.
Hang on a sec...I thought this appeal process could drag on for years...?  Surely £10k isn't going to cover years more legal costs?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 06:14:06 PM
Excellent news.

excellent news.....so looking forward to the sun article
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 06:16:20 PM
That's really good news. I eventually had a look at the page, thought that many many people must have donated to reach that amount, as most donations were for £5 and £10 and thereabouts. All good IMO, as I wasn't personally convinced the Mccanns had a strong, moral, or believable case or that the damages awarded to them for his writing his book were fair by any stretch. Onwards and upwards for his appeal.
Approximately 1000 unique individuals have contributed to the fund so far.  'Unique' in both senses of the word...  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 06:20:18 PM
Approximately 1000 unique individuals have contributed to the fund so far.  'Unique' in both senses of the word...  @)(++(*

People with common sense.

Unless those naive people or 'believers' who contributed to paying the mccanns living, travel and legal expenses. 8)--)) *&*%£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2015, 06:28:36 PM
That's really good news. I eventually had a look at the page, thought that many many people must have donated to reach that amount, as most donations were for £5 and £10 and thereabouts. All good IMO, as I wasn't personally convinced the Mccanns had a strong, moral, or believable case or that the damages awarded to them for his writing his book were fair by any stretch. Onwards and upwards for his appeal.

Many are repeat donations from the same people ... I'm not knocking that if it is what people really want to do with their money ... and it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that you cannot recognise the morals of the case ... the Portuguese Court did and the reasons given will probably dictate the outcome of an appeal should one be allowed.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 06:33:01 PM
 Of course, he might just stumble into a travel agent & buy a one-way ticket to the Maldives rather than appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 06:39:39 PM
Of course, he might just stumble into a travel agent & buy a one-way ticket to the Maldives rather than appeal.

As I understand it he doesn't have access to any of the money raised for his legal defense.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 06:53:34 PM
As I understand it he doesn't have access to any of the money raised for his legal defense.

Who is controlling the a/c to which the money is being channelled into?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 07:49:11 PM
Many are repeat donations from the same people ... I'm not knocking that if it is what people really want to do with their money ... and it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that you cannot recognise the morals of the case ... the Portuguese Court did and the reasons given will probably dictate the outcome of an appeal should one be allowed.
How do you know they are repeat donations? Why would anyone donate then send somemore?

And what do you mean by it doesn't surprise you in the slightest that I cant recognise the morals of the case? You have a nerve.
Which morals did the Portuguese Court recognise? What did they say about these?

As for "the judgement will probably dictate the outcome of an appeal", you cant know that, if anyone did,there would be no costly appeals and secondly the judgement of a lower court in banning his book a few years ago was overturned, so dont count your chickens I would say
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 09:12:46 PM
How do you know they are repeat donations? Why would anyone donate then send somemore?

An
d what do you mean by it doesn't surprise you in the slightest that I cant recognise the morals of the case? You have a nerve.
Which morals did the Portuguese Court recognise? What did they say about these?

As for "the judgement will probably dictate the outcome of an appeal", you cant know that, if anyone did,there would be no costly appeals and secondly the judgement of a lower court in banning his book a few years ago was overturned, so dont count your chickens I would say
Weird isn't it? But I can assure you they are - some peopl have donated more than half a dozen times each, it helps to give the impression that Amaral has more support than he actually has.  So - weird, and a bit pathetic really.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 20, 2015, 09:50:21 PM
It seems he has far more than enough already to launch his appeal, so what will the balance be used for?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 20, 2015, 10:46:23 PM
It seems he has far more than enough already to launch his appeal, so what will the balance be used for?

There is probably enough to sort out accounts and launch an appeal but to go the distance will take all the money raised and more.  But it is right and proper that he should have his day(s) in court.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2015, 12:21:22 AM
That there are those who claim to have made numerous donations to Mr Amaral's appeal fund is indisputable ... that there are those who have pledged weekly or other interval timed small donations to Mr Amaral's appeal fund is indisputable also ... why you appear to take umbrage to the fact is incomprehensible
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 21, 2015, 12:28:05 AM
That there are those who claim to have made numerous donations to Mr Amaral's appeal fund is indisputable ... that there are those who have pledged weekly or other interval timed small donations to Mr Amaral's appeal fund is indisputable also ... why you appear to take umbrage to the fact is incomprehensible
Probably because it means that instead of 1000 supporters, there are less but making repeat donations.  Some folk are sensitive about that sort of thing being pointed out.

I know of one who has donated three times if that helps draw a more precise picture.   
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2015, 12:57:37 AM
Probably because it means that instead of 1000 supporters, there are less but making repeat donations.  Some folk are sensitive about that sort of thing being pointed out.

I know of one who has donated three times if that helps draw a more precise picture.

It seems to me to be a very strange thing to get hung up about ... I am sure they will hit their target but unsurprisingly not at the rate it took off at. If contributions to the Portuguese arm of the endeavour keep pace with the British side of things, money won't be a problem if the appeal is allowed ... but since we are not privy to that information ... it would be wise for the Brits to continue their endeavours if Mr Amaral is not to run the risk of ending up in an even worse financial stew than he is at present should his appeal fall on deaf ears.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2015, 08:58:51 AM
It matters not that people are collecting for him.  I'm not even sure that in the unlikely event his appeal is successful it really matters; for the simple reason that the times in Portugal are definitely changing and the spotlight shone by Madeleine McCann's case may have played a part in hastening that.

The important thing now is that Madeleine McCann is being actively looked for not by private investigators ~ but by the police forces of two countries.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 21, 2015, 09:44:29 AM
It matters not that people are collecting for him.  I'm not even sure that in the unlikely event his appeal is successful it really matters; for the simple reason that the times in Portugal are definitely changing and the spotlight shone by Madeleine McCann's case may have played a part in hastening that.

The important thing now is that Madeleine McCann is being actively looked for not by private investigators ~ but by the police forces of two countries.

'Actively looked for'.

Where is that exactly ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on May 21, 2015, 12:17:49 PM
In the UK we have the Official Secrets Act which binds all police officers to secrecy, the Portuguese must have something similar?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 21, 2015, 01:58:11 PM
In the UK we have the Official Secrets Act which binds all police officers to secrecy, the Portuguese must have something similar?

Apparently, but according to Amaral, it's just an administrative detail...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2015, 02:22:45 PM
Apparently, but according to Amaral, it's just an administrative detail...


I think that 'administrative detail' might be one of the stumbling blocks he may have as an appellant ... the other being his denial of the McCanns' right to the presumption of innocence.

Since these were the two areas for which the judge ruled in the favour of the Drs McCann I can't see what leeway there is to appeal the decision except to contest the amount of the award made against him ... which is actually a bit of an irrelevance.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 21, 2015, 02:32:24 PM

I think that 'administrative detail' might be one of the stumbling blocks he may have as an appellant ... the other being his denial of the McCanns' right to the presumption of innocence.

Since these were the two areas for which the judge ruled in the favour of the Drs McCann I can't see what leeway there is to appeal the decision except to contest the amount of the award made against him ... which is actually a bit of an irrelevance.

I doubt that he could qualify as a legitimate "whistleblower", if ever that was one of his ideas...

You can't both be a whistleblower with no substantiated evidence other than your garbled understanding of facts and claim that your works are based on publicly accessible files... can you?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 21, 2015, 09:52:30 PM

I think that 'administrative detail' might be one of the stumbling blocks he may have as an appellant ... the other being his denial of the McCanns' right to the presumption of innocence.

Since these were the two areas for which the judge ruled in the favour of the Drs McCann I can't see what leeway there is to appeal the decision except to contest the amount of the award made against him ... which is actually a bit of an irrelevance.

There are appeals in this country based on the magistrates or judges having made a judgement for reasons  outwith their authority. It could conceivably be that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 21, 2015, 10:05:11 PM
There are appeals in this country based on the magistrates or judges having made a judgement for reasons  outwith their authority. It could conceivably be that.

seems like he hasn't been able to come up with a reason just yet
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2015, 10:49:07 PM
There are appeals in this country based on the magistrates or judges having made a judgement for reasons  outwith their authority. It could conceivably be that.

I truly don't think it will be that ... I think the judge has given no leeway at all to twist and turn ... the simplicity of the ruling has left no hostage to fortune.  She seems to be a pretty sharp lady, which is only to be expected.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on May 21, 2015, 10:56:29 PM
That there are those who claim to have made numerous donations to Mr Amaral's appeal fund is indisputable ... that there are those who have pledged weekly or other interval timed small donations to Mr Amaral's appeal fund is indisputable also ... why you appear to take umbrage to the fact is incomprehensible

It may be indisputable now, (that a few people have made more than one donationand I have read all the posts today now)  it wasn't to me yesterday when I questioned, there is no need to get flummoxed and wonder about comprehensibility, I didn't take "umbrage" to any "facts"either as you put it, just to assertions, so unless you expect people to accept all postings as true, then expect to be questioned.

That's all dear.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on May 21, 2015, 11:01:56 PM
In the UK we have the Official Secrets Act which binds all police officers to secrecy, the Portuguese must have something similar?

But if a case is shelved / closed does this law still pertain?
And if Mr Amaral broke it, why haven't  the authorities gone after him for it?
And how  does this all square with the fact that the authorities gave out the PJ Files to journalists? Straight after the case was shelved?

ETA: IIRC theMccanns lawyer took this to court and it was thrown out
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 09:02:00 AM
It may be indisputable now, (that a few people have made more than one donationand I have read all the posts today now)  it wasn't to me yesterday when I questioned, there is no need to get flummoxed and wonder about comprehensibility, I didn't take "umbrage" to any "facts"either as you put it, just to assertions, so unless you expect people to accept all postings as true, then expect to be questioned.

That's all dear.

I think the point some have taken umbrage to is the fact that once a certain point has been reached the momentum of the appeal relies on repeat donations from the same individuals.

I don't have the problem that some seem to have with that; but it does reveal that Mr Amaral's support has a limit of appx 1,000 vociferous individuals ... as has been seen in numerous petitions et al organised by his supporters' forums.

I doubt he even has half that number in Portugal as the revelations over the years of the lies and propaganda the public were fed sinks in. 
Nobody likes being taken for a fool ... and I think the level of the financial support or lack of it from his home turf might reflect that. 
We would be able to judge that better if the accounts were published, but I think it is becoming clearer with two collection points, one transparent the other shrouded in secrecy, that the bulk of Mr Amaral's financial support has always come from Britain and that is quite extraordinary.

I never take anything I see at face value ... but if I wish to challenge, I take the trouble to check out my facts first ... pity you do not adhere to the same courtesy.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 22, 2015, 09:41:07 AM
I think the point some have taken umbrage to is the fact that once a certain point has been reached the momentum of the appeal relies on repeat donations from the same individuals.

I don't have the problem that some seem to have with that; but it does reveal that Mr Amaral's support has a limit of appx 1,000 vociferous individuals ... as has been seen in numerous petitions et al organised by his supporters' forums.

I doubt he even has half that number in Portugal as the revelations over the years of the lies and propaganda the public were fed sinks in. 
Nobody likes being taken for a fool ... and I think the level of the financial support or lack of it from his home turf might reflect that. 
We would be able to judge that better if the accounts were published, but I think it is becoming clearer with two collection points, one transparent the other shrouded in secrecy, that the bulk of Mr Amaral's financial support has always come from Britain and that is quite extraordinary.

I never take anything I see at face value ... but if I wish to challenge, I take the trouble to check out my facts first ... pity you do not adhere to the same courtesy.

I don't find it extraordinary that Amaral has British supporters, financial or otherwise. We don't know the extent of support he has in Portugal, so nothing can be gained by speculating. According to Shining there is little or  no support in Praia da Luz for the McCanns, at any rate. In Britain Amaral seems to enjoy more support than certain others, and perhaps people should consider why that is. Not everyone who thinks he has been badly used can be dismissed as stupid, surely?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 22, 2015, 09:44:39 AM
I truly don't think it will be that ... I think the judge has given no leeway at all to twist and turn ... the simplicity of the ruling has left no hostage to fortune.  She seems to be a pretty sharp lady, which is only to be expected.

What you call "simplicity" others call a "dog's dinner" of a ruling. You seem to overlook the fact that the verdict in February 2010 on the injunction carried more or less the same arguments as in this ruling and that verdict was overturned in a scathing "acórdão" by the Tribunal da Relação de Lisboa in October 2010.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 22, 2015, 09:47:29 AM
I don't find it extraordinary that Amaral has British supporters, financial or otherwise. We don't know the extent of support he has in Portugal, so nothing can be gained by speculating. According to Shining there is little or  no support in Praia da Luz for the McCanns, at any rate. In Britain Amaral seems to enjoy more support than certain others, and perhaps people should consider why that is. Not everyone who thinks he has been badly used can be dismissed as stupid, surely?

Granted that some just might be naive or misled.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 09:51:20 AM
I don't find it extraordinary that Amaral has British supporters, financial or otherwise. We don't know the extent of support he has in Portugal, so nothing can be gained by speculating. According to Shining there is little or  no support in Praia da Luz for the McCanns, at any rate. In Britain Amaral seems to enjoy more support than certain others, and perhaps people should consider why that is. Not everyone who thinks he has been badly used can be dismissed as stupid, surely?


What people do with their money is their concern.

Whatever causes they wish to support is also their concern.

One wonders if the Portuguese people who are closer to events which have taken place in Portugal are as supportive, and one wonders now that we have an example of the source and the numbers contributing to Mr Amaral's appeal if it was not always so.

A very small rump can make a disproportionate clamour.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 09:54:51 AM
What you call "simplicity" others call a "dog's dinner" of a ruling. You seem to overlook the fact that the verdict in February 2010 on the injunction carried more or less the same arguments as in this ruling and that verdict was overturned in a scathing "acórdão" by the Tribunal da Relação de Lisboa in October 2010.

Then we shall just have to content ourselves to see if the "dogs dinner" is allowed to be challenged by appeal ... I will be surprised if it is overturned should an appeal be allowed ... then I can see beauty in simplicity.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 22, 2015, 09:59:42 AM
Then we shall just have to content ourselves to see if the "dogs dinner" is allowed to be challenged by appeal ... I will be surprised if it is overturned should an appeal be allowed ... then I can see beauty in simplicity.

Of course you would say that.

You back the mccanns 100%.


Now if the situation was reversed and rthe mccanns were making the appeal  &%+((£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 10:04:24 AM
Of course you would say that.

You back the mccanns 100%.


Now if the situation was reversed and rthe mccanns were making the appeal  &%+((£


    Point is they are not having to ... the Portuguese Courts   %£&)**#  have found in their favour.

         In the real world ... that will not be forgotten. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 22, 2015, 10:25:36 AM
Granted that some just might be naive or misled.

So people who donate to Amaral's legal defence fund are either stupid, naive or mislead? I think you are underestimating the intelligence of the British.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 22, 2015, 10:30:54 AM
So people who donate to Amaral's legal defence fund are either stupid, naive or mislead? I think you are underestimating the intelligence of the British.

ferryman forgot to omit, that's how some people view donations to the mccanns.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 22, 2015, 10:33:38 AM
So people who donate to Amaral's legal defence fund are either stupid, naive or mislead? I think you are underestimating the intelligence of the British.

I think misled and naïve are fair comments...and certainly on the whole the more intelligent can see through the lies and myths and support the mccanns
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 22, 2015, 10:50:10 AM
I think misled and naïve are fair comments...and certainly on the whole the more intelligent can see through the lies and myths and support the mccanns

Amaral's supporter's posts are definitely more intelligent than the posts of the few supporters I know of.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 22, 2015, 11:00:12 AM
I think misled and naïve are fair comments...and certainly on the whole the more intelligent can see through the lies and myths and support the mccanns

Wrong again dave.

and the the small band of mccann believers is diminishing.  8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 22, 2015, 11:34:42 AM
The court, not Mr Amaral, will decide whether or not he can appeal.

ETA: If they decide he can't, the McCanns will be outright winners at first instance.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 22, 2015, 11:39:13 AM
The court, not Mr Amaral, will decide whether or not he can appeal.

ETA: If they decide he can't, the McCanns will be outright winners at first instance.

There is far too much at stake here for him to be denied an appeal.  A judgement exceeding €500k is unprecedented in Portugal so that alone will allow one.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 11:49:16 AM
There is far too much at stake here for him to be denied an appeal.  A judgement exceeding €500k is unprecedented in Portugal so that alone will allow one.


I think that may be the single issue which might be subject to consideration ... the reduction of the award.

However the Judge made it in full consideration of the financial history and assets of the defendant ... including the receipts from the book he wrote cashing in on his theories, so it is not a given that an appeal would be allowed on those grounds.

I think the unprecedented amount of the award reflects the unprecedented damage inflicted ... so interesting what will be said in an appeal court in justification from both sides ... won't be long now till we find out if an appeal will happen.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 22, 2015, 11:51:14 AM
There is far too much at stake here for him to be denied an appeal.  A judgement exceeding €500k is unprecedented in Portugal so that alone will allow one.

But there are these inconvenient facts (for Mr Amaral) that he accuses them of responsibility for the 'death' of their daughter and those no evidence she's dead, let alone who was responsible

He accuses them of launching a fraudulent fund in their (dead!) daughter's name and the accounts of the fund are in apple-pie order

He alleges that Mark Harrison changed the enquiry to one for a little girl assumed dead and her remains hidden in the vicinity of PdL and Mark Harrison did no such thing (including that he did NOT say Madeleine was 'buried' anywhere.

Amaral insists Eddie "smelt death" all over the place and neither Harrison nor Grime said any such thing

Amaral accuses Kate of sacking a Leicester Police Liaison officer and those no evidence she did.

And so it rolls, and rolls and rolls ....

As one of the defendants at the trial said, Amaral's book is largely made up.

What price his chances of an appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 22, 2015, 11:53:46 AM

I think that may be the single issue which might be subject to consideration ... the reduction of the award.

However the Judge made it in full consideration of the financial history and assets of the defendant ... including the receipts from the book he wrote cashing in on his theories, so it is not a given that an appeal would be allowed on those grounds.

I think the unprecedented amount of the award reflects the unprecedented damage inflicted ... so interesting what will be said in an appeal court in justification from both sides ... won't be long now till we find out if an appeal will happen.

The judges decision is based on the premise that the McCanns are totally innocent.  If that particular wall eventually crumbles then that is a very different ball game.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 22, 2015, 11:55:00 AM
There is far too much at stake here for him to be denied an appeal.  A judgement exceeding €500k is unprecedented in Portugal so that alone will allow one.

logically it can't be a ground for appeal...if amaral appeals to have the amount reduced...he is accepting liability...if he doesn't want to accept liability he needs to have the judgement struck out.....so no compensation......surprised none of the very intelligent amaral supporters noticed that
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 22, 2015, 11:58:28 AM
The judges decision is based on the premise that the McCanns are totally innocent.  If that particular wall eventually crumbles then that is a very different ball game.

then why doesn't amaral stop talking the talk and start walking the walk...he claims he can PROVE Maddie died in the apartment...why doesn't he just do it.....cuz he's talking BS as usual...and that's been his problem all along
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on May 22, 2015, 12:21:04 PM

I think that may be the single issue which might be subject to consideration ... the reduction of the award.

However the Judge made it in full consideration of the financial history and assets of the defendant ... including the receipts from the book he wrote cashing in on his theories, so it is not a given that an appeal would be allowed on those grounds.

I think the unprecedented amount of the award reflects the unprecedented damage inflicted ... so interesting what will be said in an appeal court in justification from both sides ... won't be long now till we find out if an appeal will happen.

Indeed, The Legal Arguments will be interesting.  If The Appeal happens.  I would like to see them.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 22, 2015, 02:00:38 PM
Very well.

The court, not Mr Amaral, will decide whether or not he can appeal.

ETA: If they decide he can't, the McCanns will be outright winners at first instance.

The court cannot deny him an appeal. The only reasons he would not be able to appeal is if he did not present it on time, did not pay the respective costs, was not the legitimate person who could appeal and if the case was not subject to appeal and in this case, it is. Haven't you read the previous posts about this? The appeal will happen, whether you like it or not.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 22, 2015, 02:02:49 PM
But there are these inconvenient facts (for Mr Amaral) that he accuses them of responsibility for the 'death' of their daughter and those no evidence she's dead, let alone who was responsible

He accuses them of launching a fraudulent fund in their (dead!) daughter's name and the accounts of the fund are in apple-pie order

He alleges that Mark Harrison changed the enquiry to one for a little girl assumed dead and her remains hidden in the vicinity of PdL and Mark Harrison did no such thing (including that he did NOT say Madeleine was 'buried' anywhere.

Amaral insists Eddie "smelt death" all over the place and neither Harrison nor Grime said any such thing

Amaral accuses Kate of sacking a Leicester Police Liaison officer and those no evidence she did.

And so it rolls, and rolls and rolls ....

As one of the defendants at the trial said, Amaral's book is largely made up.

What price his chances of an appeal?

The judge stated that his book was based on the police files and was factual!

This has already been explained FGS! The judge of the first instance will consider his appeal and if she maintains her verdict (she does have the possibility of changing it), she then sends the appeal on to the Tribunal da Relação. She cannot stop the procedure if she doesn't agree with the appellant's arguments.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 22, 2015, 02:14:28 PM

I think that may be the single issue which might be subject to consideration ... the reduction of the award.

However the Judge made it in full consideration of the financial history and assets of the defendant ... including the receipts from the book he wrote cashing in on his theories, so it is not a given that an appeal would be allowed on those grounds.

I think the unprecedented amount of the award reflects the unprecedented damage inflicted ... so interesting what will be said in an appeal court in justification from both sides ... won't be long now till we find out if an appeal will happen.

Damages? The McCanns suffered no damages from that book as confirmed by the Tribunal da Relação de Lisboa in October 2010! Damages is when a husband and son lose their wife and mother, who was beaten to death in her office by the ex-husband of her client, who did not want to pay alimony. The two received € 160.000,-- as compensation. So let me tell you that € 500.000,-- is obscene for two parents who neglected and ignored their children during the entire holiday and who are ultimately responsible for what happened, not only to their daughter but to others.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 22, 2015, 02:30:31 PM
Damages? The McCanns suffered no damages from that book as confirmed by the Tribunal da Relação de Lisboa in October 2010! Damages is when a husband and son lose their wife and mother, who was beaten to death in her office by the ex-husband of her client, who did not want to pay alimony. The two received € 160.000,-- as compensation. So let me tell you that € 500.000,-- is obscene for two parents who neglected and ignored their children during the entire holiday and who are ultimately responsible for what happened, not only to their daughter but to others.


Excellent post.  8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 22, 2015, 02:46:01 PM
Damages? The McCanns suffered no damages from that book as confirmed by the Tribunal da Relação de Lisboa in October 2010! Damages is when a husband and son lose their wife and mother, who was beaten to death in her office by the ex-husband of her client, who did not want to pay alimony. The two received € 160.000,-- as compensation. So let me tell you that € 500.000,-- is obscene for two parents who neglected and ignored their children during the entire holiday and who are ultimately responsible for what happened, not only to their daughter but to others.

it is what the Portuguese judge awarded...tough...I think it's totally justified and the judge agrees with me
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 22, 2015, 02:48:49 PM
it is what the Portuguese judge awarded...tough...I think it's totally justified and the judge agrees with me

The judge agrees with you ?

[ moderated ]

Montclair got it just right.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 22, 2015, 02:51:42 PM
it is what the Portuguese judge awarded...tough...I think it's totally justified and the judge agrees with me

The amount is in no way justified. Furthermore, the judge deemed that Gonçalo Amaral did not have the right to write the book as a retired policeman and awarded the parents the proceeds from the book as punishment and in no way as damages.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 22, 2015, 02:58:07 PM
The amount is in no way justified. Furthermore, the judge deemed that Gonçalo Amaral did not have the right to write the book as a retired policeman and awarded the parents the proceeds from the book as punishment and in no way as damages.

It's quite interesting that you bleat on about....no way justified...it doesn't matter what you think it's up to the judge...and she agrees with me.....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on May 22, 2015, 03:06:02 PM
The amount is in no way justified. Furthermore, the judge deemed that Gonçalo Amaral did not have the right to write the book as a retired policeman and awarded the parents the proceeds from the book as punishment and in no way as damages.

If the award was a punishment for not having the right to write the book, why wasn't the amount payable to the state rather than Kate & Gerry?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 22, 2015, 03:12:05 PM
Damages? The McCanns suffered no damages from that book as confirmed by the Tribunal da Relação de Lisboa in October 2010! Damages is when a husband and son lose their wife and mother, who was beaten to death in her office by the ex-husband of her client, who did not want to pay alimony. The two received € 160.000,-- as compensation. So let me tell you that € 500.000,-- is obscene for two parents who neglected and ignored their children during the entire holiday and who are ultimately responsible for what happened, not only to their daughter but to others.


The story of the family of the ex-husband is sad indeed.

However, this is a different case, based - presumably - on different grounds.

An initial question, however: Do you have a link to the judgement of that case?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 22, 2015, 03:15:26 PM
The amount is in no way justified. Furthermore, the judge deemed that Gonçalo Amaral did not have the right to write the book as a retired policeman and awarded the parents the proceeds from the book as punishment and in no way as damages.

Could you clarify how you came to that conclusion, Montclair?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 22, 2015, 03:31:34 PM
The judge stated that his book was based on the police files and was factual!

This has already been explained FGS! The judge of the first instance will consider his appeal and if she maintains her verdict (she does have the possibility of changing it), she then sends the appeal on to the Tribunal da Relação. She cannot stop the procedure if she doesn't agree with the appellant's arguments.

That's not exactly what she said.

She said that the "facts" in the book were IN THE MAIN contained within the files (i.e. not all). She passed no judgement as to whether the "facts" were truthful or not - just that many of the "facts" did indeed appear in the "partial" files, but that establishing the truthfulness was beyond her remit.

Logically, if someone chooses to select only certain aspects of WWII, clearly a biased version of events could present how Hitler won the war. If you really choose only selected documents, I expect that it's quite feasible to make readers believe that the Holocaust never happened - it was all just unpleasant propaganda to discredit the Führer.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 22, 2015, 03:41:06 PM
That's not exactly what she said.

She said that the "facts" in the book were IN THE MAIN contained within the files (i.e. not all). She passed no judgement as to whether the "facts" were truthful or not - just that many of the "facts" did indeed appear in the "partial" files, but that establishing the truthfulness was beyond her remit.

Logically, if someone chooses to select only certain aspects of WWII, clearly a biased version of events could present how Hitler won the war. If you really choose only selected documents, I expect that it's quite feasible to make readers believe that the Holocaust never happened - it was all just unpleasant propaganda to discredit the Führer.

The facts are in the files and they are facts, Gonçalo Amaral did not invent "facts". What the judge said was that it was not within her remit to investigate the disappearance.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 22, 2015, 03:46:05 PM
The facts are in the files and they are facts, Gonçalo Amaral did not invent "facts". What the judge said was that it was not within her remit to investigate the disappearance.

amaral based his book on the files no problem...then he added his own...big problem .....where in the files does it say there is proof maddie died in the apartment
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 22, 2015, 03:53:06 PM
amaral based his book on the files no problem...then he added his own...big problem .....where in the files does it say there is proof maddie died in the apartment

The problem is that you people say that Gonçalo Amaral has said or written things that he hasn't done. He never said in his book that there was proof that Madeleine died in the apartment. He only repeated the preliminary report by Tavares de Almeida and what the police thought when the dogs alerted. In the book he describes the investigation without giving his personal opinion as to what happened.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 22, 2015, 03:53:17 PM
amaral based his book on the files no problem...then he added his own...big problem .....where in the files does it say there is proof maddie died in the apartment

Accidental death in the apartment has not been disproved.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 22, 2015, 03:53:46 PM
I don't see how amaral can ask for the damages to be reduced without admitting liability...it's like getting sentenced to 10 years for a crime....then saying that's bit much what about 5...by the way I'm innocent
 *&*%£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 22, 2015, 03:54:47 PM

The problem is that you people say that Gonçalo Amaral has said or written things that he hasn't done. He never said in his book that there was proof that Madeleine died in the apartment. He only repeated the preliminary report by Tavares de Almeida and what the police thought when the dogs alerted. In the book he describes the investigation without giving his personal opinion as to what happened.

he said on the video he could prove Maddie died in the apartment
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 22, 2015, 03:56:54 PM

The problem is that you people say that Gonçalo Amaral has said or written things that he hasn't done. He never said in his book that there was proof that Madeleine died in the apartment. He only repeated the preliminary report by Tavares de Almeida and what the police thought when the dogs alerted. In the book he describes the investigation without giving his personal opinion as to what happened.

could you tell me where in the files it says anything like this...

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)
#

plus...Grime has not said there has been a body in the apartment...but amaral has
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 22, 2015, 04:00:09 PM
The facts are in the files and they are facts, Gonçalo Amaral did not invent "facts". What the judge said was that it was not within her remit to investigate the disappearance.


I'd agree that she said that investigating the truthfulness of the "facts" was not the subject-matter of the trial.

Was CdaM justified in asserting that RM had had sex with a cat and tortured various other animals as well? There was a statement to that effect in the files, but it doesn't mean that it was true.

I could have stated (hypothetically) that you were a spy for an enemy power intent on clearing the Algarve of the tourist industry to make way for a North Korean intercontinental missile launchpad... if I had made a statement to that effect, it wouldn't make it "true", either, would it?

She stated that for "the main part" the facts that were the basis could be found in the files. Not that ALL were.

There are several "facts" that simply are not in the accessible files. The only thing that would be "true" is that I'd made a statement to that effect.

And, if an author had decided to only discuss the possibility of a (hypothetical) North Korean missile launchpad, even when that possibility later appeared to be highly unlikely, what then? Is that version the "truth"?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 22, 2015, 04:46:01 PM

The problem is that you people say that Gonçalo Amaral has said or written things that he hasn't done. He never said in his book that there was proof that Madeleine died in the apartment. He only repeated the preliminary report by Tavares de Almeida and what the police thought when the dogs alerted. In the book he describes the investigation without giving his personal opinion as to what happened.

He wrote the book making great play that the author was the former coordinator in the case, and using his former job to bolster his credibility.

He said in his book and the documentary that the McCanns were guilty of certain criminal offences.

This breached their rights under the Portuguese constitution, and breached his duty to keep his opinions to himself, as a former policeman.

The judge really had no choice but to find for the McCanns.

the level of damages was set at approximately the level of profit he made from the book, upholding the principle that one should not profit from ones "crimes".

In my opinion he is going to struggle to find credible grounds for an appeal, but that is a matter for the court to decide.

 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 22, 2015, 06:09:31 PM
The facts are in the files and they are facts, Gonçalo Amaral did not invent "facts". What the judge said was that it was not within her remit to investigate the disappearance.

He states certain things as facts that are most certainly not in the accessible files. And his "understanding" of some of the facts that are in them is beyond bewildering.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 22, 2015, 06:11:06 PM

The problem is that you people say that Gonçalo Amaral has said or written things that he hasn't done. He never said in his book that there was proof that Madeleine died in the apartment. He only repeated the preliminary report by Tavares de Almeida and what the police thought when the dogs alerted. In the book he describes the investigation without giving his personal opinion as to what happened.

What about in his docu drama?


My name is Goncalo Amaral and I was a police investigator for the Judiciary Police for 27 years. I co-ordinated the investigation of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann on the 3rd of May 2007. During the next 50 minutes I will PROVE that the child was not abducted and that she died in the holiday apartment in Praia da Luz. Discover all the truth about what happened that day. A death that many want to cover up.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 22, 2015, 07:24:48 PM
What about in his docu drama?


My name is Goncalo Amaral and I was a police investigator for the Judiciary Police for 27 years. I co-ordinated the investigation of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann on the 3rd of May 2007. During the next 50 minutes I will PROVE that the child was not abducted and that she died in the holiday apartment in Praia da Luz. Discover all the truth about what happened that day. A death that many want to cover up.
How did he actually go on to "prove" this? 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on May 22, 2015, 08:05:58 PM
I think the point some have taken umbrage to is the fact that once a certain point has been reached the momentum of the appeal relies on repeat donations from the same individuals.

I don't have the problem that some seem to have with that; but it does reveal that Mr Amaral's support has a limit of appx 1,000 vociferous individuals ... as has been seen in numerous petitions et al organised by his supporters' forums.

I doubt he even has half that number in Portugal as the revelations over the years of the lies and propaganda the public were fed sinks in. 
Nobody likes being taken for a fool ... and I think the level of the financial support or lack of it from his home turf might reflect that. 
We would be able to judge that better if the accounts were published, but I think it is becoming clearer with two collection points, one transparent the other shrouded in secrecy, that the bulk of Mr Amaral's financial support has always come from Britain and that is quite extraordinary.

I never take anything I see at face value ... but if I wish to challenge, I take the trouble to check out my facts first ... pity you do not adhere to the same courtesy.

So, you would have expected me to go and read all the thousands of messages on the donation page before daring to ask you to back up your statements?  Wow!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 08:27:56 PM
So, you would have expected me to go and read all the thousands of messages on the donation page before daring to ask you to back up your statements?  Wow!


I expect you to post statements which can be substantiated but if you are content to post on subjects you admit to knowing nothing about ... expect to be challenged on them when you get them seriously wrong.

You also have it wrong when you say thousands have contributed to Mr Amaral's appeal fund ... at my last count 1266 donations had been made ... and as you belatedly acknowledge, many of the contributions are from multiple doners some of whom have pledged to continue on a weekly basis.

I see why it annoys you ... but don't take it out on me if the truth of the lie is being revealed so succinctly ... Mr Amaral's support does not number in the thousands ... but it is interesting seeing them putting their money where their mouth is and reading some of that as well.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on May 22, 2015, 09:05:48 PM

I expect you to post statements which can be substantiated but if you are content to post on subjects you admit to knowing nothing about ... expect to be challenged on them when you get them seriously wrong.

You also have it wrong when you say thousands have contributed to Mr Amaral's appeal fund ... at my last count 1266 donations had been made ... and as you belatedly acknowledge, many of the contributions are from multiple doners some of whom have pledged to continue on a weekly basis.

I see why it annoys you ... but don't take it out on me if the truth of the lie is being revealed so succinctly ... Mr Amaral's support does not number in the thousands ... but it is interesting seeing them putting their money where their mouth is and reading some of that as well.

I challenged YOU on your assertions, thats all, stop making such a song and dance act about everything

I also see my original reply post to you has been deleted....interesting
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 22, 2015, 09:26:06 PM

I expect you to post statements which can be substantiated but if you are content to post on subjects you admit to knowing nothing about ... expect to be challenged on them when you get them seriously wrong.

You also have it wrong when you say thousands have contributed to Mr Amaral's appeal fund ... at my last count 1266 donations had been made ... and as you belatedly acknowledge, many of the contributions are from multiple doners some of whom have pledged to continue on a weekly basis.

I see why it annoys you ... but don't take it out on me if the truth of the lie is being revealed so succinctly ... Mr Amaral's support does not number in the thousands ... but it is interesting seeing them putting their money where their mouth is and reading some of that as well.

It doesn't matter how many as long he receives enough dosh to lodge with his appeal documents. Of course with a totaliser running he can legitimately spin it out til 40 days. Well honest guv I didn't have the dosh look at the "go fund me" totaliser.
As for multiple Doners I have them on a Thursday night after multiple scoops of Stella's Tortoise wiv me mates innit.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 09:36:43 PM
It doesn't matter how many as long he receives enough dosh to lodge with his appeal documents. Of course with a totaliser running he can legitimately spin it out til 40 days. Well honest guv I didn't have the dosh look at the "go fund me" totaliser.
As for multiple Doners I have them on a Thursday night after multiple scoops of Stella's Tortoise wiv me mates innit.
`


I do not have the slightest issue with the numbers anxious to fund Mr Amaral's appeal with repeat donations ... if there are people who seem to be very sensitive about it ... I do not number amongst them.

Instructive that there was such a transparent reaction when the myth of the thousands has been shown to be just so much hot air ... nothing at all unusual there.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on May 22, 2015, 09:41:49 PM
This discussion is hilarious...so many being annoyed by donations to a defense fund of 20kwhen the Mccanns have had over 3 million to a fund which in their own words they can use as they like and which in fact has been used for many more purposes than directly searching! Pathetic
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 09:48:49 PM
This discussion is hilarious...so many being annoyed by donations to a defense fund of 20kwhen the Mccanns have had over 3 million to a fund which in their own words they can use as they like and which in fact has been used for many more purposes than directly searching! Pathetic

At the last count the fund stood at £20,550 ... yet again you are guilty of making an unsubstantiated statement ... please provide evidence that "so many are annoyed"  ... should be easy enough to back up if there is any truth in it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 22, 2015, 10:47:32 PM
This discussion is hilarious...so many being annoyed by donations to a defense fund of 20kwhen the Mccanns have had over 3 million to a fund which in their own words they can use as they like and which in fact has been used for many more purposes than directly searching! Pathetic

I'm looking forward to the fund reaching 25,000 which will result in an article by the Sun
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 22, 2015, 10:50:44 PM
At the last count the fund stood at £20,550 ... yet again you are guilty of making an unsubstantiated statement ... please provide evidence that "so many are annoyed"  ... should be easy enough to back up if there is any truth in it.

Well you seem to be.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 25, 2015, 12:10:22 PM
Was there ever any confirmation of the rumour that there had been an attempt to settle by either party prior to the trial?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 25, 2015, 04:19:10 PM
This is interesting:

court proceedings in Portugal:

http://www.worldservicesgroup.com/publications.asp?action=article&artid=2914
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on May 25, 2015, 05:15:47 PM
Was there ever any confirmation of the rumour that there had been an attempt to settle by either party prior to the trial?

IIRC it was more than a "rumour"
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 25, 2015, 05:19:30 PM
Has Amaral appealed yet?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 25, 2015, 05:58:53 PM
Has Amaral appealed yet?

Probably not, there are 12 days remaining.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 25, 2015, 06:08:57 PM
Has Amaral appealed yet?

Not to me, he hasn't

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 25, 2015, 06:13:13 PM
Probably not, there are 12 days remaining.
12 working days or 12 days in total?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 25, 2015, 06:19:50 PM
This is interesting:

court proceedings in Portugal:

http://www.worldservicesgroup.com/publications.asp?action=article&artid=2914

Thanks, ferryman.  Certainly gives an idea why the size of the damages came as such a blow as well as an understanding of the Judge's discretion on the evidence presented ... I've bookmarked it to read properly when I've got time. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 25, 2015, 06:35:32 PM
12 working days or 12 days in total?

Calender days.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: DCI on May 25, 2015, 06:54:07 PM
Thanks, ferryman.  Certainly gives an idea why the size of the damages came as such a blow as well as an understanding of the Judge's discretion on the evidence presented ... I've bookmarked it to read properly when I've got time.

Interesting read, Brietta.

13- Is third-party litigation funding permissible?

Legal costs may be defrayed by a third party. However, to the extent that such a third party is not a party to the proceedings, his or her right to recover such costs is limited to the agreement reached with the party who is lawfully entitled to recover this money under the terms of the court order.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 25, 2015, 06:59:33 PM
Calender days.

So 6th June

ETA a Saturday, so presumably 9th June.

civil case to be decided in a Portuguese court passes through two phases: a written phase (pleadings), where almost all procedural activity is conducted by the parties with very little intervention from the judge; and a subsequent oral phase (hearings).

The institution of a product liability action starts with the filing of the pleading (petição inicial), which must be addressed to the competent court and accurately identify the parties, the facts and their legal grounds, as well as the amount in dispute and the documentary evidence through which the plaintiff intends to prove the truthfulness of (all or part of) the alleged facts. However, under the principle of jura novit curia, the plaintiff is not required to set out the legal grounds in thorough detail, and such indication of legal grounds is not binding upon the judge, who may uphold the action based on alternative legal grounds.

Once the claim has been filed, the defendant is notified so that he or she may present a defence (and, eventually, a counterclaim) within, generally, a term of 30 days. The answer of the defendant must contain all the arguments available, either factual or legal, as the defendant will not have another occasion to do so (unless he or she presents a counterclaim).

As soon as the exchange of pleadings is complete, the terms of the dispute are defined and, save for exceptional situations, cannot be altered.

The court may then schedule a preliminary hearing (this is an optional phase) in which the legal obstacles to the claims (and any possible counterclaims) shall be discussed (although no evidence is yet presented), which may lead to the dismissal of the case. If the judge considers that all the relevant facts are already evidenced in the file (through documents) he or she may also decide to rule on the merits of the case.

If the court decides that the case should undergo trial (and this is the normal outcome of the preliminary hearing), it will prepare – in principle with the cooperation of the parties’ attorneys – a list of the facts that are already proved and a list of the facts that will be discussed in trial. Thereafter, the parties will be invited to indicate all the additional evidence they wish to produce – lists of witnesses, requests for expert evidence, requests for the production of documents not in their possession, among other evidence, must be submitted at this stage, since afterwards only the list of witnesses may be amended.


So would it be fair to say that the bulk of the trial was determined in written submissions?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: DCI on May 25, 2015, 07:21:23 PM
I believe they do hold Court cases on Saturdays, in Portugal, Ferryman.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 25, 2015, 07:23:07 PM
I believe they do hold Court cases on Saturdays, in Portugal, Ferryman.

Interesting ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 27, 2015, 02:54:05 PM
Idle curiosity (which I don't expect to be satisfied for a while!) as to whether Amaral has lodged his appeal on points of law.

If the challenge is on proven facts then he probably has until the 9th June.

Unless his lawyers secretary gets bird flu, of course.   8((()*/
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 27, 2015, 03:01:31 PM
Idle curiosity (which I don't expect to be satisfied for a while!) as to whether Amaral has lodged his appeal on points of law.

If the challenge is on proven facts then he probably has until the 9th June.

Unless his lawyers secretary gets bird flu, of course.   8((()*/

Are you sure that the deadline is based on calendar days, as opposed to working days in a civil case? Not that it makes much difference in the general scheme of how long this has been going on for.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 27, 2015, 03:14:57 PM
Are you sure that the deadline is based on calendar days, as opposed to working days in a civil case? Not that it makes much difference in the general scheme of how long this has been going on for.

Calendar days.

This extract from the European Judicial Network (Portugal) may help:

5. From when does this period begin to run:

5.a) When such a period is expressed in days, does the actual date of the act, of the event, of the decision or of the date of service and/or intimation which begins it count?

When such a period is expressed in days, the time limit begins to run from the day following the date of service, notification or the relevant event that sets it in train.


The actual date of the act, event, decision or date of service and/or intimation which begins it does not count.

5.a)1. Does the starting time for any time limit depend in any way on the receipt by or knowledge of the action by the recipient. If so how?

Yes. The answer given to question 4 also applies here.

5.b) When a time limit is expressed in days, does the indicated number of days include calendar days or only working days?

The procedural time limit laid down by law or established by court order is continuous. It is, however, suspended during judicial vacations, unless it lasts for six months or more or in the case of acts in proceedings statutorily classified as urgent. When the time limit for carrying out a procedural act ends on a day when the courts are closed, the period is extended to the next working day (Article 144 of the Code of Civil Procedure).

It follows that, except for the period of judicial vacations, the procedural time limit includes all calendar days although the act can be carried out on the next working day after the end of the period if it falls on a day when the court is closed.

Judicial vacations run from the 22 December to 3 January, from Palm Sunday to Easter Monday and from 1 to 31 August.

If, for example, in a proceeding a person has to react within 14 days to a document served on 4 April 2005, he or she must respond before 18 April. (unless Easter occurs within this period, when it may then be extended by 4 days). 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 27, 2015, 03:21:14 PM
Are you sure that the deadline is based on calendar days, as opposed to working days in a civil case? Not that it makes much difference in the general scheme of how long this has been going on for.

Won't be too long now until the £25,000 total is reached for the appeal fund ... I see there have been numerous pledges to keep on contributing for as long as is necessary ... this "fighting injustice" looks like it could be a long drawn out and expensive endeavour. 
Interesting, though, particularly the accompanying comments.    8)-)))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2015, 03:24:08 PM
When the time limit for carrying out a procedural act ends on a day when the courts are closed, the period is extended to the next working day (Article 144 of the Code of Civil Procedure).


So 8th June, not 9th as I said above, unless this court works on a Saturday as DCI says ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 27, 2015, 03:30:49 PM
When the time limit for carrying out a procedural act ends on a day when the courts are closed, the period is extended to the next working day (Article 144 of the Code of Civil Procedure).


So 8th June, not 9th as I said above, unless this court works on a Saturday as DCI says ...

But I had forgotten that the date runs from the day following the actual judgement in Portugal so the 9th is correct, (I think....) 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 27, 2015, 03:32:07 PM
Idle curiosity (which I don't expect to be satisfied for a while!) as to whether Amaral has lodged his appeal on points of law.

If the challenge is on proven facts then he probably has until the 9th June.

Unless his lawyers secretary gets bird flu, of course.   8((()*/
OFF TOPIC
Or ManFlu depending on the secretary's gender ?{)(**
Non PC to the last. ?>)()<
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 27, 2015, 03:53:16 PM
OFF TOPIC
Or ManFlu depending on the secretary's gender ?{)(**
Non PC to the last. ?>)()<

http://portugalresident.com/madeleine-libel-hearing-is-adjourned-as-lawyer-has-swine-flu

Last time it was swine flu.

On the basis that he can't pull that particular stunt again I was gently suggesting an alternative.

Who mentioned being PC by the way?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2015, 03:56:52 PM
http://portugalresident.com/madeleine-libel-hearing-is-adjourned-as-lawyer-has-swine-flu

Last time it was swine flu.

On the basis that he can't pull that particular stunt again I was gently suggesting an alternative.

Who mentioned being PC by the way?

Whichever the day, how would you assess Amaral's chances of lodging grounds of an appeal the judge will deem satisfactory, JP?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 27, 2015, 04:18:36 PM
Whichever the day, how would you assess Amaral's chances of lodging grounds of an appeal the judge will deem satisfactory, JP?

The grounds upon which the McCanns lawyers approached the case, and the Judge's application of the law, would seem to be correct, and according to the judgement leave very little room.

I think he would struggle to challenge the facts proven.

So any appeal will have to be on points of law, and they will have to be pretty fundamental.  At the moment I cant think of one.

 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2015, 04:44:16 PM
The grounds upon which the McCanns lawyers approached the case, and the Judge's application of the law, would seem to be correct, and according to the judgement leave very little room.

I think he would struggle to challenge the facts proven.

So any appeal will have to be on points of law, and they will have to be pretty fundamental.  At the moment I cant think of one.

 

Thanks, JP.

Do we know if Amaral has legal representation?

Presumably the bulk of the money in the fund would go to paying his legal fees?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 27, 2015, 04:53:01 PM
Thanks, JP.

Do we know if Amaral has legal representation?

Presumably the bulk of the money in the fund would go to paying his legal fees?

I would imagine Miguel Cruz Rodrigues will carry on acting for him. 

Unless he gets the "old heave ho" for not brandishing Amaral's ace.....?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Moderator on May 27, 2015, 05:42:46 PM
Does Mr Amaral have a website or blog in which he gives updates to his followers?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 27, 2015, 06:29:01 PM
Does Mr Amaral have a website or blog in which he gives updates to his followers?

I have no idea, sorry.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on May 27, 2015, 06:55:23 PM
Does Mr Amaral have a website or blog in which he gives updates to his followers?

This blog

www.pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: DCI on May 27, 2015, 07:38:06 PM
This blog

www.pjga.blogspot.co.uk/ (http://www.pjga.blogspot.co.uk/)

The only actual update Amaral has allegedly posted is this one, as far as I can see!

I understand that the court's decision is unfair and puts in question my right and the all Portuguese to freedom of expression and opinion.

For this reason, not conform me and I will turn to the last instance.

I hope I can continue to count on your support, and I will continue to hit me in the true justice system and the realization of justice.

Thank you all.

http://www.pjga.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/uma-mensagem-de-goncalo-amaral.html (http://www.pjga.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/uma-mensagem-de-goncalo-amaral.html)


No updates on accounts, by anyone  £5%4%
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2015, 01:22:56 PM
Just saw this on the Amazon site................

'Well, Gezza & Katie (and their handful of ######## #######) have just been handed a very nice little "something to chew on for the weekend" over at gofundme:

'£1,000 MPS - 21 mins ago MPS from an anonymous but very large group of Brit. police officers, outraged at the way in which an SIO has been treated. This strikes at the very basis of the way investigations whould be conducted, "Without Fear or Favour, Malice or ill will". The world can clearly see where the malice and ill-will are in this case.'

http://www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA  '


Mmmm. 8((()*/

Thanks to this very generous gift of a grand the Defence Fund has now reached a very useful £23,150 from 1,382 donations. The msm must be finding it increasingly difficult to ignore this phenomena and it is going to be illuminating to see which tabloid rag will break the news first, when the initial target is achieved
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 01:30:07 PM
Just saw this on the Amazon site................

'Well, Gezza & Katie (and their handful of ######## #######) have just been handed a very nice little "something to chew on for the weekend" over at gofundme:

'£1,000 MPS - 21 mins ago MPS from an anonymous but very large group of Brit. police officers, outraged at the way in which an SIO has been treated. This strikes at the very basis of the way investigations whould be conducted, "Without Fear or Favour, Malice or ill will". The world can clearly see where the malice and ill-will are in this case.'

http://www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA  '


Mmmm. 8((()*/

Thanks to this very generous gift of a grand the Defence Fund has now reached a very useful £23,150 from 1,382 donations. The msm must be finding it increasingly difficult to ignore this phenomena and it is going to be illuminating to see which tabloid rag will break the news first, when the initial target is achieved

Do you suppose that, because that's what it says on the site, that's what has actually happened?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2015, 01:31:41 PM
Do you suppose that, because that's what it says on the site, that's what has actually happened?

Do you suppose that, because the mccanns said it was an abduction, that's what has actually happened ?

and do you really believe all police officers believe the mccanns 'story' ?   @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 30, 2015, 01:41:03 PM
Do you suppose that, because the mccanns said it was an abduction, that's what has actually happened ?

and do you really believe all police officers believe the mccanns 'story' ?   @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

 8@??)( 8@??)(
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 01:47:18 PM
Do you suppose that, because the mccanns said it was an abduction, that's what has actually happened ?

and do you really believe all police officers believe the mccanns 'story' ?   @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

I leave it to senile and incompetent Portuguese judges who find in favour of the McCanns to believe things like that .
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2015, 01:50:35 PM
I leave it to senile and incompetent Portuguese judges who find in favour of the McCanns to believe things like that .

Oh dear, is that the best you can do ?

How many judges was that ferryman ?

Appeal pending of course. 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 01:52:30 PM
Oh dear, is that the best you can do ?

How many judges was that ferryman ?

Appeal pending of course. 8**8:/:

Appeal to be applied for

And approved or denied.

If denied, the McCanns will be outright winners at first instance.

We'll see ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 30, 2015, 02:12:09 PM
http://www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGQHEVTXEAA8vJd.jpg)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 30, 2015, 02:26:52 PM
So "a very large group" of British policeman have donated £1000 to Ammy's* Fund have they?

Is that 1000 policemen donating £1 each then?

*That was especially for Alice.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2015, 03:55:14 PM
Appeal to be applied for

And approved or denied.

If denied, the McCanns will be outright winners at first instance.

We'll see ...

Indeed we will.

Let's not forget the mccanns could end up with zip. *&*%£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2015, 03:56:29 PM
So "a very large group" of British policeman have donated £1000 to Ammy's* Fund have they?

Is that 1000 policemen donating £1 each then?

*That was especially for Alice.

So what about the large number of police who believe and support the mccanns ? *&*%£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 30, 2015, 04:17:20 PM
Appeal to be applied for

And approved or denied.

If denied, the McCanns will be outright winners at first instance.

We'll see ...

How many times do we have to explain how appeals work before you understand? The appeal goes to the first instance judge. If she doesn't accept the arguments, she then sends it up to the appeals court. There is no way that the appeal can stop in the first instance if the appellant fulfills the formalities of filing within the time limit, paying the respective court costs, being the legitimate person to appeal and the case falling under the types which can be appealed (which is the case here). Do you understand now?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 04:24:41 PM
How many times do we have to explain how appeals work before you understand? The appeal goes to the first instance judge. If she doesn't accept the arguments, she then sends it up to the appeals court. There is no way that the appeal can stop in the first instance if the appellant fulfills the formalities of filing within the time limit, paying the respective court costs, being the legitimate person to appeal and the case falling under the types which can be appealed (which is the case here). Do you understand now?

Well, among those who appear to have the wrong end of the stick is Jean-Pierre.

I asked him this:

Whichever the day, how would you assess Amaral's chances of lodging grounds of an appeal the judge will deem satisfactory, JP?

He replied:

The grounds upon which the McCanns lawyers approached the case, and the Judge's application of the law, would seem to be correct, and according to the judgement leave very little room.

I think he would struggle to challenge the facts proven.

So any appeal will have to be on points of law, and they will have to be pretty fundamental.  At the moment I cant think of one.


So JP doesn't appear to take it as read that grounds of an appeal will be automatically accepted (and if they are not, the McCanns will be outright winners at first instance)!

You do.

Which of you is right?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2015, 04:44:51 PM
Well, among those who appear to have the wrong end of the stick is Jean-Pierre.

I asked him this:

Whichever the day, how would you assess Amaral's chances of lodging grounds of an appeal the judge will deem satisfactory, JP?

He replied:

The grounds upon which the McCanns lawyers approached the case, and the Judge's application of the law, would seem to be correct, and according to the judgement leave very little room.

I think he would struggle to challenge the facts proven.

So any appeal will have to be on points of law, and they will have to be pretty fundamental.  At the moment I cant think of one.


So JP doesn't appear to take it as read that grounds of an appeal will be automatically accepted (and if they are not, the McCanns will be outright winners at first instance)!

You do.

Which of you is right?

The person who knows Portuguese Law.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 04:55:56 PM
So does Leanne Baulch have a plan 'B' for what to do with all that money in the 'Goncalo' fund if Amaral is denied leave to appeal?

I gather the money is in the form of an outright gift, so there is no obligation to refund it.

But something will have to be done with it.

What?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on May 30, 2015, 05:00:47 PM
Well, among those who appear to have the wrong end of the stick is Jean-Pierre.

I asked him this:

Whichever the day, how would you assess Amaral's chances of lodging grounds of an appeal the judge will deem satisfactory, JP?

He replied:

The grounds upon which the McCanns lawyers approached the case, and the Judge's application of the law, would seem to be correct, and according to the judgement leave very little room.

I think he would struggle to challenge the facts proven.

So any appeal will have to be on points of law, and they will have to be pretty fundamental.  At the moment I cant think of one.


So JP doesn't appear to take it as read that grounds of an appeal will be automatically accepted (and if they are not, the McCanns will be outright winners at first instance)!

You do.

Which of you is right?

That's not the feedback I am getting from lawyers practising in Portugal.  Although having some sympathy with the litigants, they feel that the judgement was politically motivated at a time of great judicial changes in the country.

The level of the judgement alone is unprecedented in Portugal and that alone would attract an automatic referral by a judge to the appeal court and higher.

The other point which appears to be coming across is that the parents appear to being rewarded for negligence.  That is something I personally don't necessarily agree with but is worth mentioning all the same.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2015, 05:01:17 PM
So does Leanne Baulch have a plan 'B' for what to do with all that money in the 'Goncalo' fund if Amaral is denied leave to appeal?

I gather the money is in the form of an outright gift, so there is no obligation to refund it.

But something will have to be done with it.

What?

Do the mccanns have plan 'B' if Amaral wins the appeal and the mccanns are left with nothing but legal bills, which they so richly deserve.
IMO of course  ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 30, 2015, 05:01:38 PM
Just saw this on the Amazon site................

'Well, Gezza & Katie (and their handful of ######## #######) have just been handed a very nice little "something to chew on for the weekend" over at gofundme:

'£1,000 MPS - 21 mins ago MPS from an anonymous but very large group of Brit. police officers, outraged at the way in which an SIO has been treated. This strikes at the very basis of the way investigations whould be conducted, "Without Fear or Favour, Malice or ill will". The world can clearly see where the malice and ill-will are in this case.'

http://www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA  '


Mmmm. 8((()*/

Thanks to this very generous gift of a grand the Defence Fund has now reached a very useful £23,150 from 1,382 donations. The msm must be finding it increasingly difficult to ignore this phenomena and it is going to be illuminating to see which tabloid rag will break the news first, when the initial target is achieved

A goodly sum has been raised to support Mr Amaral to finance his appeal and it will soon reach its target ... but it is not an extraordinary amount ... for example  -  Crowdfunding against Carmichael raises £26.353 on day one #carmichaelmustgo  http://theorkneyvole.com/2015/05/27/crowdfunding-against-carmichael-raises-26-353-on-day-one-carmichaelmustgo/
I believe it is now far in excess of £40,000 http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/1321679-bid-to-oust-alistair-carmichael-over-frenchgate-memo-leak-raises-40000/

So it really isn't that much of a phenomena ... however I do look forward to the MSM take on it should there be one.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 05:07:33 PM
That's not the feedback I am getting from lawyers practising in Portugal.  Although having some sympathy with the litigants, they feel that the judgement was politically motivated at a time of great judicial changes in the country.

The level of the judgement alone is unprecedented in Portugal and that alone would attract an automatic referral by a judge to the appeal court and higher.

The other point which appears to be coming across is that the parents appear to being rewarded for negligence.  That is something I personally don't necessarily agree with but is worth mentioning all the same.

Amaral did tell rather a lot of (proven!) lies in his book.

And the Portuguese prosecutors dismissed 'negligence' (promulgated enthusiastically by Amaral in his latest public utterances). 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 30, 2015, 05:14:42 PM
So does Leanne Baulch have a plan 'B' for what to do with all that money in the 'Goncalo' fund if Amaral is denied leave to appeal?

I gather the money is in the form of an outright gift, so there is no obligation to refund it.

But something will have to be done with it.

What?

Gonçalo Amaral cannot be denied leave to appeal!!!!!!! I believe that Jean-Pierre is talking about how the Appeals court will appreciate GA's arguments, not what the first instance judge can do. One thing she cannot do is not to send the appeal to a higher court, no matter whether she agrees or not with the appellant's arguments.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on May 30, 2015, 05:15:20 PM
Amaral did tell rather a lot of (proven!) lies in his book.

And the Portuguese prosecutors dismissed 'negligence' (promulgated enthusiastically by Amaral in his latest public utterances).


Aside from the odd departure from reality, the problem with Gonçalo Amaral's book is that his underlying thesis has not been proven or disproven.  He claims the parents are guilty of a coverup following an accidental death, the problem remains that this has never been successfully challenged.

I believe the prosecutors considered then dismissed the crime of intentional neglect which is a different issue to simple negligence.  In many peoples view they were negligent,  to their credit they have admitted being negligent so I'm afraid we are stuck with that background.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 05:20:32 PM

Aside from the odd departure from reality, the problem with Gonçalo Amaral's book is that his underlying thesis has not been proven or disproven.  He claims the parents are guilty of a coverup following an accidental death but this has never been successfully challenged.

I believe the prosecutors considered then dismissed the crime of intentional neglect which is a different issue to simple negligence.

If 'simple negligence' doesn't come under a legal remit, but is just a subjective personal judgement, then it is unlikely to have bearing or relevance upon the outcome of an appeal ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 05:23:47 PM
Gonçalo Amaral cannot be denied leave to appeal!!!!!!! I believe that Jean-Pierre is talking about how the Appeals court will appreciate GA's arguments, not what the first instance judge can do. One thing she cannot do is not to send the appeal to a higher court, no matter whether she agrees or not with the appellant's arguments.

If you are right (and I don't think you are!) then it works very differently from the way it works in England.

And your interpretation of the way it works in Portugal seems to defy logic.

What is the point of anyone being asked to adjudicate an appeal if the appeal (absoulutely!) cannot be denied?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on May 30, 2015, 05:25:22 PM
If 'simple negligence' doesn't come under a legal remit, but is just a subjective personal judgement, then it is unlikely to have bearing or relevance upon the outcome of an appeal ....

It could have if it is argued that their simple negligence towards their child was a contributing factor.  I don't believe Judge Castro referred to this issue in her extensive judgement.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 05:29:18 PM
It could have if it is argued that their simple negligence towards their child was a contributing factor.  I don't believe Judge Castro referred to this issue in her extensive judgement.

A shoe-string for those hoping for an appeal to hang on to ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 30, 2015, 05:32:29 PM
If you are right (and I don't think you are!) then it works very differently from the way it works in England.

And your interpretation of the way it works in Portugal seems to defy logic.

What is the point of anyone being asked to adjudicate an appeal if the appeal (absoulutely!) cannot be denied?

It is not my interpretation, it is the law here. So if it is different from the way it works in England, so be it.

Let me say this once more. The first instance judge can deny the appeal and not change her verdict, but she is then obliged to send the appeal to the higher court, the Tribunal da Relação. The appeal cannot stop in her lap, that would be a denial of justice.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 30, 2015, 05:34:11 PM
As I understood it, Amaral can't appeal on the issue of proven or unproven facts. He can appeal on points of law and/or the size of the award. The judge found against him on two points.

1. That he used information gained in his employment as a police officer and he should have kept it secret. 
Well, he did, but only for three days after the release of the files. Will that be long enough to allow an appeal on this point?

2. As a retired police officer he was still bound by the requirement to allow suspects the presumption of innocence.
I think the wording refers to suspects, but I'm not sure. If it does, then the McCanns weren't suspects when the book was published.



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 05:38:33 PM
It is not my interpretation, it is the law here. So if it is different from the way it works in England, so be it.

Let me say this once more. The first instance judge can deny the appeal and not change her verdict, but she is then obliged to send the appeal to the higher court, the Tribunal da Relação. The appeal cannot stop in her lap, that would be a denial of justice.

If she is obliged to send the appeal to the second court, what would be the point in her denying the appeal?

In that instance, she would, effectively, be denying, then allowing, the appeal, making a nonsense of her ever being asked to adjudicate an appeal in the first place.

What exactly is the point of the adjudication? 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 06:04:58 PM
It seems as if Amaral is running fairly close to the wire if he has not, so far, submitted his appeal.

Doesn't he have until 8th June?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 30, 2015, 06:09:48 PM
I don't think that Montclair and Jean-Pierre are really at odds. My understanding is that the first instance judge has to check that the formalities have been complied with (which Montclair has mentioned) and that the appeal is more than a scrawled note of unrelated gibberish. As Jean-Pierre has said, that saves time for the next court up.

If Montclair is correct that he applied for 40 days, then that would presumably mean that he intended to contest legal and factual elements.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 06:12:23 PM
I don't think that Montclair and Jean-Pierre are really at odds. My understanding is that the first instance judge has to check that the formalities have been complied with (which Montclair has mentioned) and that the appeal is more than a scrawled note of unrelated gibberish. As Jean-Pierre has said, that saves time for the next court up.

If Montclair is correct that he applied for 40 days, then that would presumably mean that he intended to contest legal and factual elements.

So there is no point in adjudication?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 06:20:21 PM
Another of JP's posts:



The grounds upon which the McCanns lawyers approached the case, and the Judge's application of the law, would seem to be correct, and according to the judgement leave very little room.

I think he would struggle to challenge the facts proven.

So any appeal will have to be on points of law, and they will have to be pretty fundamental.  At the moment I cant think of one.


(Jean-Pierre)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 30, 2015, 06:28:01 PM
He is entitled to challenge both and no doubt he'll try.

His recent media interviews may offer an indication of what his points are likely to be.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 06:32:26 PM
He is entitled to challenge both and no doubt he'll try.

His recent media interviews may offer an indication of what his points are likely to be.

As far as I can make it out, he has abandoned theMcCannsdunsomethingdreadfultoMadeleineandcovereditup (a central theme of his book, film and interviews) and reverted to TheMcCannsneglectedtheirdaughterandthat'swhyshe'sdead! (also rejected by the prosecutors).

That ought to bode ill for Amaral's prospects (of being granted an appeal!).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2015, 06:34:24 PM
As far as I can make it out, he has abandoned theMcCannsdunsomethingdreadfultoMadeleineandcovereditup (a central theme of his book, film and interviews) and reverted to TheMcCannsneglectedtheirdaughterandthat'swhyshe'sdead! (also rejected by the prosecutors).

That ought to bode ill for Amaral's prospects (of being granted an appeal!).

Your getting desperate ferryman.

What will you do if Amaral wins the appeal and the mccanns get zip ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 06:37:19 PM
Your getting desperate ferryman.

What will you do if Amaral wins the appeal and the mccanns get zip ?

We're debating whether Amaral will be granted an appeal.

Since he appears to have abandoned a central tenet and theme of his book, that ought to bode ill for his chances.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2015, 06:56:53 PM
We're debating whether Amaral will be granted an appeal.

Since he appears to have abandoned a central tenet and theme of his book, that ought to bode ill for his chances.

We shall see in due course.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2015, 06:58:23 PM
We're debating whether Amaral will be granted an appeal.

Since he appears to have abandoned a central tenet and theme of his book, that ought to bode ill for his chances.

It does seem he will get an appeal.

So why are you so clearly worried ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 06:59:37 PM
We shall see in due course.

Indeed.

I take it the appeal has not been submitted yet?

Worried?

Who says it does seem he will get an appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 30, 2015, 07:03:06 PM
We're debating whether Amaral will be granted an appeal.

Since he appears to have abandoned a central tenet and theme of his book, that ought to bode ill for his chances.

Why?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2015, 07:03:20 PM
Indeed.

I take it the appeal has not been submitted yet?

Worried?

Who says it does seem he will get an appeal?

Try reading what Montclair has told us.

It would help.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 30, 2015, 07:03:39 PM
If she is obliged to send the appeal to the second court, what would be the point in her denying the appeal?

In that instance, she would, effectively, be denying, then allowing, the appeal, making a nonsense of her ever being asked to adjudicate an appeal in the first place.

What exactly is the point of the adjudication?

The appellant appeals to the first instance to give the judge an opportunity to change her verdict. If she does not want to change her verdict after reading his arguments, then she is obliged to send the appeal to the higher court. What do you think happened when the judge upheld the book ban in February 2010? All the defendants appealed to the first instance judge, who obviously did not change her verdict, and then she sent their appeals on to the Tribunal da Relação, as required by law, which then overturned the first judgement.

BTW, nobody was aware of when the appeals were submitted in 2010, so why are you worried now? I figure that Gonçalo's lawyers know what they are doing, just as they did before. I leave the arguments to the lawyers who know a lot about the law and about appeals.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 07:06:54 PM
The appellant appeals to the first instance to give the judge an opportunity to change her verdict. If she does not want to change her verdict after reading his arguments, then she is obliged to send the appeal to the higher court. What do you think happened when the judge upheld the book ban in February 2010? All the defendants appealed to the first instance judge, who obviously did not change her verdict, and then she sent their appeals on to the Tribunal da Relação, as required by law, which then overturned the first judgement.

So an appeal followed by an appeal?

No I don't go with that at all ...

What you are suggesting is that the judge who ruled in first instance is empowered to overrule her own, initial ruling, which is clearly wrong.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 30, 2015, 07:10:07 PM
So an appeal followed by an appeal?

No I don't go with that at all ...

What you are suggesting is that the judge who ruled in first instance is empowered to overrule her initial ruling, which is clearly wrong.

That's your problem then. Perhaps this may help. Do you think that it is fair that a judge who has convicted you, should be the one to decide your appeal? No one would want that.

Yes, the judge can change her verdict whether you like it or not.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 30, 2015, 07:14:38 PM
So there is no point in adjudication?

Adjudication? As far as I can work out, it's simply a matter of ensuring that the formalities, including relevant paperwork, are done properly.

What the next court may make of whatever arguments are presented remains to be seen.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 07:17:15 PM
Adjudication? As far as I can work out, it's simply a matter of ensuring that the formalities, including relevant paperwork, are done properly.

What the next court may make of whatever arguments are presented remains to be seen.

So you are suggesting that there is no actual appeal: just a rubber-stamping exercise before proceedings in the next court up are commenced?

No.  I don't think that's right either.

It certainly isn't the impression I get from JP's posts.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2015, 07:20:01 PM
So you are suggesting that there is no actual appeal: just a rubber-stamping exercise before proceedings in the next court up are commenced?

No.  I don't think that's right either.

It certainly isn't the impression I get from JP's posts.

Is up an expert in Portuguese Law,  or the interpretation of it ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 30, 2015, 07:24:34 PM
8. Appeal
 
8.1 Grounds for appeal
The general rule is that a party may appeal to the court of second instance (“Tribunal da Relação”) when the value of the lawsuit is higher than EUR5,000 and the decision is unfavourable to the appealing party in an amount higher than EUR2,500.01 (Cf. Article 629 of the CPC). The court of second instance decides both on legal and factual issues.

A party may appeal to the Supreme Court when the value of the lawsuit is higher than EUR30,000 and the decision is unfavourable to the appealing party in an amount higher than EUR15,000.01.

The Supreme Court only rules on legal issues and, in most cases, cannot revoke the second instance judgment concerning the proven facts.

In most cases the parties cannot move to the Supreme Court if the first and the second instance courts have issued identical decisions with similar grounds.

The general rule is that the appeal does not suspend the proceedings unless the appealing party pays a deposit or presents a bank guarantee.

8.2 Time limits and triggering events
The general rule is that the appealing party has 30 days to appeal to the higher court in the event that the appeal is to the court of second instance (Cf. Article 638 of the CPC). If the appeal includes the impeachment of the proven facts through a review of the recorded witnesses or party statements, then the appealing party has 40 days to appeal.

However, in some specific cases (e.g. freezing orders) the appealing party has only 15 days to appeal.

The defendant in the appeal always has the same term to present an answer.

The first instance court will then decide whether the appeal should be accepted. If it is accepted, the case is sent to the higher court.

On the basis of historic evidence, it is estimated that the second instance courts take on average between six months and one year to decide an appeal, and that the Supreme Court will take on average three to six months to issue a final decision.
http://www.chambersandpartners.com/guide/practice-guides/location/241/6617/1422-200
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 30, 2015, 07:26:46 PM
So you are suggesting that there is no actual appeal: just a rubber-stamping exercise before proceedings in the next court up are commenced?

No.  I don't think that's right either.

It certainly isn't the impression I get from JP's posts.

It's more than rubber-stamping as the legal arguments / disputed facts have to be presented in a comprehensible manner. If anything appears as gibberish, the judge has a time limit to request clarification... it seems to be more a matter of streamlining the process.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 07:29:22 PM
The first instance court will then decide whether the appeal should be accepted. If it is accepted, the case is sent to the higher court.

So there it is.

The first instance court has power to reject an appeal ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2015, 07:36:46 PM
The first instance court will then decide whether the appeal should be accepted. If it is accepted, the case is sent to the higher court.

So there it is.

The first instance court has power to reject an appeal ...

Now what did Montclair say earlier ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 30, 2015, 07:38:43 PM
8. Appeal
 
8.1 Grounds for appeal
The general rule is that a party may appeal to the court of second instance (“Tribunal da Relação”) when the value of the lawsuit is higher than EUR5,000 and the decision is unfavourable to the appealing party in an amount higher than EUR2,500.01 (Cf. Article 629 of the CPC). The court of second instance decides both on legal and factual issues.

A party may appeal to the Supreme Court when the value of the lawsuit is higher than EUR30,000 and the decision is unfavourable to the appealing party in an amount higher than EUR15,000.01.

The Supreme Court only rules on legal issues and, in most cases, cannot revoke the second instance judgment concerning the proven facts.

In most cases the parties cannot move to the Supreme Court if the first and the second instance courts have issued identical decisions with similar grounds.

The general rule is that the appeal does not suspend the proceedings unless the appealing party pays a deposit or presents a bank guarantee.

8.2 Time limits and triggering events
The general rule is that the appealing party has 30 days to appeal to the higher court in the event that the appeal is to the court of second instance (Cf. Article 638 of the CPC). If the appeal includes the impeachment of the proven facts through a review of the recorded witnesses or party statements, then the appealing party has 40 days to appeal.

However, in some specific cases (e.g. freezing orders) the appealing party has only 15 days to appeal.

The defendant in the appeal always has the same term to present an answer.

The first instance court will then decide whether the appeal should be accepted. If it is accepted, the case is sent to the higher court.

On the basis of historic evidence, it is estimated that the second instance courts take on average between six months and one year to decide an appeal, and that the Supreme Court will take on average three to six months to issue a final decision.
http://www.chambersandpartners.com/guide/practice-guides/location/241/6617/1422-200

Thanks for digging that out again.

I'm wondering if there's a mistake in this bit as it doesn't make sense to me. Shouldn't it be "provided that" instead of "unless"?

The general rule is that the appeal does not suspend the proceedings unless the appealing party pays a deposit or presents a bank guarantee.


I don't find this clear either... At which point does the defendant's deadline start? It wouldn't make sense to me if it was before a submission had been cleared for appeal otherwise there's no way of knowing what to counter-contest.

The defendant in the appeal always has the same term to present an answer.

By the time this gets sorted, I find it likely that it will be approaching summer recess time, then back to bird-flu season...

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 30, 2015, 07:41:30 PM
The first instance court will then decide whether the appeal should be accepted. If it is accepted, the case is sent to the higher court.

So there it is.

The first instance court has power to reject an appeal ...

Yes, it does, but the grounds for doing so are limited.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2015, 08:04:27 PM
Yes, it does, but the grounds for doing so are limited.

Read what was said earlier.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 30, 2015, 08:25:44 PM
This is the reference I was given by a Portuguese lawyer:

No prazo de 30 dias, o Recorrente apresenta Recurso da sentença, juntando as motivações do referido recurso, podendo ser apresentadas motivações de direito e/ou de facto. O recurso é apresentado no tribunal a quo (Tribunal de 1.ª instância, que proferiu a Sentença).
O juiz que profere a Sentença, analisa o requerimento e lê as motivações. Se, após as ler, entender que a sua decisão se mantem, analisa os pressupostos de apresentação do recurso:
Se é uma decisão passível de recurso (629.º do CPC)
Se é tempestivo (638.º, n.º 1, do CPC)
Se o recorrente tem legitimidade (631.º)
Se pagou taxa de justiça (7.º/2 Regime das Custas Processuais)

Se os pressupostos estiverem todos cumpridos, o juiz profere despacho de admissão do recurso, em que diz que estão preenchidos todos os pressupostos e que, por isso, os autos (o processo, digamos) deve subir para o tribunal da relação de X (Lisboa, neste caso) e com que efeito sobe (devolutivo ou suspensivo).

Quando o recurso é apenas quanto a matéria de Direito, o recorrente pode requerer que o recurso seja directamente apreciado pelo STJ, sem ter de passar pela Relação - é o que se chama de "recurso per saltum" (art. 678.º do CPC).

Quick translation, although I have done one already:

Within a period of 30 days, the Appellant presents his appeal of the sentence, enclosing the motivations for referred appeal, motivations of law and/or fact can be presented. The appeal is presented in the court a quo (the first instance court, which gave the sentence).

The judge who gave the sentence, analyses the appeal and reads the motivations. If, after having read them, if she feels that her sentence should be maintained, she analyses the requirements for presenting an appeal:

- If the decision is susceptible to appeal (629º of the CPC)
- If it is presented on time (638º, nº1 of the CPC)
- If the appellant has the legitimacy to do so (631º)
- If the justice fee has been paid (7º/2 rules of Processual Code)

If the requirements have been fulfilled, the judge decrees the official notice of appeal, in which she says that all of the requirements have been fulfilled, and that, for this, the act (the process, let's say) must go up to the Tribunal da Relação and with which effect it goes up (devolutive or suspensive).

If the appeal is based only on the matter of Law, the appellant can ask that the appeal be directly appreciated by the Supreme Court of Justice, bypassing the Tribunal da Relação -which is called "recurso per saltum" (article 678º of the CPC)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 08:32:30 PM
Yes, it does, but the grounds for doing so are limited.

How about grounds that the appellant (in the appeal!) has falsely accused the victors of the first round of responsibility for the death of their daughter, covering up the 'fact' of her death, fabricating an 'abduction' and launching a fraudulent 'appeal' in their (dead) daughter's name?

Or of grievously misrepresenting the positions of key English detectives in the (shelved) investigation?

And I think it may be a mistake to suppose that all that is not in the judgment.

I don't think we see the full judgment on line.

I think that beneath the headline that Amaral's book caused the McCanns anxiety (proved!) is a wealth of information explaining why.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 30, 2015, 08:37:05 PM
How about grounds that the appellant (in the appeal!) has falsely accused the victors of the first round of responsibility for the death of their daughter, covering up the 'fact' of her death, fabricating an 'abduction' and launching a fraudulent 'appeal' in their (dead) daughter's name?

Or of grievously misrepresenting the positions of key English detectives in the (shelved) investigation?

And I think it may be a mistake to suppose that all that is not in the judgment.

I don't think we see the full judgment on line.

I think that beneath the headline that Amaral's book caused the McCanns anxiety (proved!) is a wealth of information explaining why.

Usual wishful thinking.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2015, 08:38:56 PM
How about grounds that the appellant (in the appeal!) has falsely accused the victors of the first round of responsibility for the death of their daughter, covering up the 'fact' of her death, fabricating an 'abduction' and launching a fraudulent 'appeal' in their (dead) daughter's name?

Or of grievously misrepresenting the positions of key English detectives in the (shelved) investigation?

And I think it may be a mistake to suppose that all that is not in the judgment.

I don't think we see the full judgment on line.

I think that beneath the headline that Amaral's book caused the McCanns anxiety (proved!) is a wealth of information explaining why.

Anxiety ?

That was self induced.

No one forced the mccanns to do what they did.

However, Madeleine paid the price for that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 08:47:06 PM
Well, Amaral and his legal team seem to be running it down to the wire in presenting their appeal.

Let's see what happens when they do.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 30, 2015, 08:49:14 PM
This is the reference I was given by a Portuguese lawyer:

No prazo de 30 dias, o Recorrente apresenta Recurso da sentença, juntando as motivações do referido recurso, podendo ser apresentadas motivações de direito e/ou de facto. O recurso é apresentado no tribunal a quo (Tribunal de 1.ª instância, que proferiu a Sentença).
O juiz que profere a Sentença, analisa o requerimento e lê as motivações. Se, após as ler, entender que a sua decisão se mantem, analisa os pressupostos de apresentação do recurso:
Se é uma decisão passível de recurso (629.º do CPC)
Se é tempestivo (638.º, n.º 1, do CPC)
Se o recorrente tem legitimidade (631.º)
Se pagou taxa de justiça (7.º/2 Regime das Custas Processuais)

Se os pressupostos estiverem todos cumpridos, o juiz profere despacho de admissão do recurso, em que diz que estão preenchidos todos os pressupostos e que, por isso, os autos (o processo, digamos) deve subir para o tribunal da relação de X (Lisboa, neste caso) e com que efeito sobe (devolutivo ou suspensivo).

Quando o recurso é apenas quanto a matéria de Direito, o recorrente pode requerer que o recurso seja directamente apreciado pelo STJ, sem ter de passar pela Relação - é o que se chama de "recurso per saltum" (art. 678.º do CPC).

Quick translation, although I have done one already:

Within a period of 30 days, the Appellant presents his appeal of the sentence, enclosing the motivations for referred appeal, motivations of law and/or fact can be presented. The appeal is presented in the court a quo (the first instance court, which gave the sentence).

The judge who gave the sentence, analyses the appeal and reads the motivations. If, after having read them, if she feels that her sentence should be maintained, she analyses the requirements for presenting an appeal:

- If the decision is susceptible to appeal (629º of the CPC)
- If it is presented on time (638º, nº1 of the CPC)
- If the appellant has the legitimacy to do so (631º)
- If the justice fee has been paid (7º/2 rules of Processual Code)

If the requirements have been fulfilled, the judge decrees the official notice of appeal, in which she says that all of the requirements have been fulfilled, and that, for this, the act (the process, let's say) must go up to the Tribunal da Relação and with which effect it goes up (devolutive or suspensive).

If the appeal is based only on the matter of Law, the appellant can ask that the appeal be directly appreciated by the Supreme Court of Justice, bypassing the Tribunal da Relação -which is called "recurso per saltum" (article 678º of the CPC)

Reading that then, the appeal goes to the judge who gave the judgement, and she can allow the appeal  if she feels that they have successfully refuted her findings. If, on the other hand, she wishes to stand by her findings she checks that everything is in order (timescsale, fees paid, etc.) and passes it up the chain for others to decide.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 08:55:52 PM
- If the appellant has the legitimacy to do so (631º)

I would suggest that that provision includes that there must be points of law or facts in the judgment that can legitimately be disputed.

If there are none, he's had it.

And I don't think Amaral can legitimately accuse the McCanns of direct culpability in the demise of their daughter when there's no proof she's dead.

Neither can he legitimately ascribe pejorative (to the the McCanns) comments of key English investigators that were similarly never made.

These points must weigh against Amaral's chances (of being granted an appeal) ....

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 30, 2015, 08:57:24 PM
Reading that then, the appeal goes to the judge who gave the judgement, and she can allow the appeal  if she feels that they have successfully refuted her findings. If, on the other hand, she wishes to stand by her findings she checks that everything is in order (timescsale, fees paid, etc.) and passes it up the chain for others to decide.

Yes, that is how it works.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 30, 2015, 08:58:59 PM
Well, Amaral and his legal team seem to be running it down to the wire in presenting their appeal.

Let's see what happens when they do.

How do you know that they haven't already submitted the appeal? They aren't obliged to make an announcement to the world.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 09:00:41 PM
Reading that then, the appeal goes to the judge who gave the judgement, and she can allow the appeal  if she feels that they have successfully refuted her findings. If, on the other hand, she wishes to stand by her findings she checks that everything is in order (timescsale, fees paid, etc.) and passes it up the chain for others to decide.

No.

That makes a mockery of 'appeal'.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 09:02:50 PM
How do you know that they haven't already submitted the appeal? They aren't obliged to make an announcement to the world.

As if they wouldn't ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 30, 2015, 09:14:06 PM
- If the appellant has the legitimacy to do so (631º)

I would suggest that that provision includes that there must be points of law or facts in the judgment that can legitimately be disputed.

If there are none, he's had it.

And I don't think Amaral can legitimately accuse the McCanns of direct culpability in the demise of their daughter when there's no proof she's dead.

Neither can he legitimately ascribe pejorative (to the the McCanns) comments of key English investigators that were similarly never made.

These points must weigh against Amaral's chances (of being granted an appeal) ....

Ferryman, you just don't want to understand at all! The above point means that the person filing the appeal is the defendant and not someone else.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2015, 09:17:19 PM
Ferryman, you just don't want to understand at all! The above point means that the person filing the appeal is the defendant and not someone else.

The person filing the appeal is the appellant ....

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/appellant
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 30, 2015, 11:23:02 PM
It is correct that the person filing the appeal is the appellant in the appeal.  I think there may be some misunderstanding - that person may have been the appellant or the respondent in the original case. 

Amaral will need to come up with some grounds for appeal, either challenging proven facts or points of law.  Otherwise there is no basis for appeal.  This is why it is sent back to the court of first instance - to triage and make sure pointless appeals do not waste the time of the higher courts.

In practice, the bar is quite low, and he will only need to present a skeleton argument at this stage.

 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on May 31, 2015, 01:01:31 AM
http://www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA

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Thankyou Pathfinder for posting that donation.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 31, 2015, 08:34:16 AM
It is correct that the person filing the appeal is the appellant in the appeal.  I think there may be some misunderstanding - that person may have been the appellant or the respondent in the original case. 

Amaral will need to come up with some grounds for appeal, either challenging proven facts or points of law.  Otherwise there is no basis for appeal.  This is why it is sent back to the court of first instance - to triage and make sure pointless appeals do not waste the time of the higher courts.

In practice, the bar is quite low, and he will only need to present a skeleton argument at this stage.

I don't think you and Montclair are in disagreement.

The only point that I haven't found in the various Articles (from memory) is that it's only "proven" facts that can be challenged. Couldn't he also challenge one or more of the nonproven ones if doing so was in his favour?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 31, 2015, 08:49:05 AM
Artigo 636.º (art.º 684.º-A CPC 1961)
Ampliação do âmbito do recurso a requerimento do recorrido   


1 - No caso de pluralidade de fundamentos da ação ou da defesa, o tribunal de recurso conhece do fundamento em que a parte vencedora decaiu, desde que esta o requeira, mesmo a título subsidiário, na respetiva alegação, prevenindo a necessidade da sua apreciação.

2 - Pode ainda o recorrido, na respetiva alegação e a título subsidiário, arguir a nulidade da sentença ou impugnar a decisão proferida sobre pontos determinados da matéria de facto, não impugnados pelo recorrente, prevenindo a hipótese de procedência das questões por este suscitadas.

3 - Na falta dos elementos de facto indispensáveis à apreciação da questão suscitada, pode o tribunal de recurso mandar baixar os autos, a fim de se proceder ao julgamento no tribunal onde a decisão foi proferida.
   

  Artigo 637.º (art.º 684.º-B CPC 1961)
Modo de interposição do recurso
   

1 - Os recursos interpõem-se por meio de requerimento dirigido ao tribunal que proferiu a decisão recorrida, no qual se indica a espécie, o efeito e o modo de subida do recurso interposto.

2 - O requerimento de interposição do recurso contém obrigatoriamente a alegação do recorrente, em cujas conclusões deve ser indicado o fundamento específico da recorribilidade; quando este se traduza na invocação de um conflito jurisprudencial que se pretende ver resolvido, o recorrente junta obrigatoriamente, sob pena de imediata rejeição, cópia, ainda que não certificada, do acórdão fundamento.

Artigo 638.º (art.º 685.º CPC 1961)
Prazos   

1 - O prazo para a interposição do recurso é de 30 dias e conta-se a partir da notificação da decisão, reduzindo-se para 15 dias nos processos urgentes e nos casos previstos no n.º 2 do artigo 644.º e no artigo 677.º.

2 - Se a parte for revel e não dever ser notificada nos termos do artigo 249.º, o prazo de interposição corre desde a publicação da decisão, exceto se a revelia da parte cessar antes de decorrido esse prazo, caso em que a sentença ou despacho tem de ser notificado e o prazo começa a correr da data da notificação.

3 - Tratando-se de despachos ou sentenças orais, reproduzidos no processo, o prazo corre do dia em que foram proferidos, se a parte esteve presente ou foi notificada para assistir ao ato.

4 - Quando, fora dos casos previstos nos números anteriores, não tenha de fazer-se a notificação, o prazo corre desde o dia em que o interessado teve conhecimento da decisão.

5 - Em prazo idêntico ao da interposição, pode o recorrido responder à alegação do recorrente.

6 - Na sua alegação, o recorrido pode impugnar a admissibilidade ou a tempestividade do recurso, bem como a legitimidade do recorrente.

7 - Se o recurso tiver por objeto a reapreciação da prova gravada, ao prazo de interposição e de resposta acrescem 10 dias.

8 - Sendo requerida pelo recorrido a ampliação do objeto do recurso, nos termos do artigo 636.º, pode o recorrente responder à matéria da ampliação, nos 15 dias posteriores à notificação do requerimento.

9 - Havendo vários recorrentes ou vários recorridos, ainda que representados por advogados diferentes, o prazo das respetivas alegações é único, incumbindo à secretaria providenciar para que todos possam proceder ao exame do processo durante o prazo de que beneficiam.


Artigo 639.º (art.º 685.º-A CPC 1961)
Ónus de alegar e formular conclusões   


1 - O recorrente deve apresentar a sua alegação, na qual conclui, de forma sintética, pela indicação dos fundamentos por que pede a alteração ou anulação da decisão.

2 - Versando o recurso sobre matéria de direito, as conclusões devem indicar:

a) As normas jurídicas violadas;

b) O sentido com que, no entender do recorrente, as normas que constituem fundamento jurídico da decisão deviam ter sido interpretadas e aplicadas;

c) Invocando-se erro na determinação da norma aplicável, a norma jurídica que, no entendimento do recorrente, devia ter sido aplicada.

3 - Quando as conclusões sejam deficientes, obscuras, complexas ou nelas se não tenha procedido às especificações a que alude o número anterior, o relator deve convidar o recorrente a completá-las, esclarecê-las ou sintetizá-las, no prazo de cinco dias, sob pena de se não conhecer do recurso, na parte afetada.

4 - O recorrido pode responder ao aditamento ou esclarecimento no prazo de cinco dias.

5 - O disposto nos números anteriores não é aplicável aos recursos interpostos pelo Ministério Público, quando recorra por imposição da lei.
   

  Artigo 640.º (art.º 685.º-B CPC 1961)
Ónus a cargo do recorrente que impugne a decisão relativa à matéria de facto   

1 - Quando seja impugnada a decisão sobre a matéria de facto, deve o recorrente obrigatoriamente especificar, sob pena de rejeição:

a) Os concretos pontos de facto que considera incorretamente julgados;

b) Os concretos meios probatórios, constantes do processo ou de registo ou gravação nele realizada, que impunham decisão sobre os pontos da matéria de facto impugnados diversa da recorrida;

c) A decisão que, no seu entender, deve ser proferida sobre as questões de facto impugnadas.

2 - No caso previsto na alínea b) do número anterior, observa-se o seguinte:

a) Quando os meios probatórios invocados como fundamento do erro na apreciação das provas tenham sido gravados, incumbe ao recorrente, sob pena de imediata rejeição do recurso na respetiva parte, indicar com exatidão as passagens da gravação em que se funda o seu recurso, sem prejuízo de poder proceder à transcrição dos excertos que considere relevantes;

b) Independentemente dos poderes de investigação oficiosa do tribunal, incumbe ao recorrido designar os meios de prova que infirmem as conclusões do recorrente e, se os depoimentos tiverem sido gravados, indicar com exatidão as passagens da gravação em que se funda e proceder, querendo, à transcrição dos excertos que considere importantes.

3 - O disposto nos n.os 1 e 2 é aplicável ao caso de o recorrido pretender alargar o âmbito do recurso, nos termos do n.º 2 do artigo 636.º.

Artigo 641.º (art.º 685.º-C CPC 1961)
Despacho sobre o requerimento   


1 - Findos os prazos concedidos às partes, o juiz aprecia os requerimentos apresentados, pronuncia-se sobre as nulidades arguidas e os pedidos de reforma, ordenando a subida do recurso, se a tal nada obstar.

2 - O requerimento é indeferido quando:
a) Se entenda que a decisão não admite recurso, que este foi interposto fora de prazo ou que o requerente não tem as condições necessárias para recorrer;

b) Não contenha ou junte a alegação do recorrente ou quando esta não tenha conclusões.

3 - No despacho em que admite o recurso, deve o juiz solicitar ao conselho distrital da Ordem dos Advogados a nomeação de advogado aos ausentes, incapazes e incertos, quando estes não possam ser representados pelo Ministério Público.

4 - No caso previsto no número anterior, o prazo de resposta do recorrido ou de interposição por este de recurso subordinado conta-se da notificação ao mandatário nomeado.

5 - A decisão que admita o recurso, fixe a sua espécie e determine o efeito que lhe compete não vincula o tribunal superior nem pode ser impugnada pelas partes, salvo na situação prevista no n.º 3 do artigo 306.º.

6 - A decisão que não admita o recurso ou retenha a sua subida apenas pode ser impugnada através da reclamação prevista no artigo 643.º.

7 - No despacho em que admite o recurso referido na alínea c) do n.º 3 do artigo 629.º, deve o juiz ordenar a citação do réu ou do requerido, tanto para os termos do recurso como para os da causa, salvo nos casos em que o requerido no procedimento cautelar não deva ser ouvido antes do seu decretamento.
   

  Artigo 642.º (art.º 685.º-D CPC 1961)
Omissão do pagamento das taxas de justiça   

1 - Quando o documento comprovativo do pagamento da taxa de justiça devida ou da concessão do benefício do apoio judiciário não tiver sido junto ao processo no momento definido para esse efeito, a secretaria notifica o interessado para, em 10 dias, efetuar o pagamento omitido, acrescido de multa de igual montante, mas não inferior a 1 UC nem superior a 5 UC.

2 - Quando, no termo do prazo de 10 dias referido no número anterior, não tiver sido junto ao processo o documento comprovativo do pagamento da taxa de justiça devida e da multa ou da concessão do benefício do apoio judiciário, o tribunal determina o desentranhamento da alegação, do requerimento ou da resposta apresentado pela parte em falta.

3 - A parte que aguarde decisão sobre a concessão do apoio judiciário deve, em alternativa, comprovar a apresentação do respetivo requerimento.
   

http://www.pgdlisboa.pt/leis/lei_mostra_articulado.php?artigo_id=1959A0637&nid=1959&tabela=leis&pagina=1&ficha=1&nversao=#artigo
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 31, 2015, 09:53:43 AM
Thank you Carana.  Interesting.

I think the critical part is article 641, 2 (a) and (b)

I agree that my thoughts do not differ very much from Montclair.  If Amaral's legal team are unable to come up with sufficient grounds for appeal to have the case reviewed by the higher court, then they should review their career options. 

But as always time will tell. 

Appeals have risks too.   
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 31, 2015, 10:06:09 AM
Thank you Carana.  Interesting.

I think the critical part is article 641, 2 (a) and (b)

I agree that my thoughts do not differ very much from Montclair.  If Amaral's legal team are unable to come up with sufficient grounds for appeal to have the case reviewed by the higher court, then they should review their career options. 

But as always time will tell. 

Appeals have risks too.

Another point (from memory) that I don't appear to have copied is that if she dismisses it, it can be taken to another court for a legal "second opinion".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 31, 2015, 10:08:16 AM
Thank you Carana.  Interesting.

I think the critical part is article 641, 2 (a) and (b)

I agree that my thoughts do not differ very much from Montclair.  If Amaral's legal team are unable to come up with sufficient grounds for appeal to have the case reviewed by the higher court, then they should review their career options. 

But as always time will tell. 

Appeals have risks too.


Do you have any idea what Artigo 636.º is about?

ETA: Re article 641, point 1 - my understanding is that she considers the points in dispute, the justification for them, what the alternative finding should have been made in the appellant's opinion, etc., then she presents a legal opinion on them, and passes the case for referral if the whole thing isn't gibberish or lacking in substance and the formalities are met.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 31, 2015, 10:25:56 AM
@ Montclair

I don't see where it is stated that the judge can amend the verdict herself. The only thing that I can see (if I've understood it correctly) is that she presents her (non-binding) opinion on the matters raised.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Admin on May 31, 2015, 10:36:04 AM
An observation from the Goncalo Amaral appeal fund which has now surpassed £24,000 is the amount of criticism which the MSM appear to be receiving over this case.

All views welcome?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 31, 2015, 10:40:03 AM
An observation from the Goncalo Amaral appeal fund which has now surpassed £24,000 is the amount of criticism which the MSM appear to be receiving over this case.

All views welcome?

What sort of criticism and from who?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Admin on May 31, 2015, 10:45:23 AM
What sort of criticism and from who?

References by donators to the fund to the MSM and their failure to tell the truth in respect of many aspects of this case.  The MSM are perceived by many to be more interested in selling newspapers than they are in reporting all the facts...but then what's new?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 31, 2015, 11:00:35 AM
References by donators to the fund to the MSM and their failure to tell the truth in respect of many aspects of this case.  The MSM are perceived by many to be more interested in selling newspapers than they are in reporting all the facts...but then what's new?

LOL

Irony klaxon moment.

What "truth"? Ascertaining the material truth has been left out of the equation and (IMO) is what is causing confusion for people accustomed to an anglophone understanding of what a libel case would involve.

ETA for Admin: wouldn't the fund-raising for his legal defence be better on a separate thread?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 31, 2015, 11:03:31 AM
References by donators to the fund to the MSM and their failure to tell the truth in respect of many aspects of this case.  The MSM are perceived by many to be more interested in selling newspapers than they are in reporting all the facts...but then what's new?

Oh dear.  Most of the donors to the fund are by definition "skeptics" so its hardly surprising, is it.  They have been banging on about "truth" and "political interference" in this case since Pontius was a lad.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 31, 2015, 11:06:20 AM
References by donators to the fund to the MSM and their failure to tell the truth in respect of many aspects of this case.  The MSM are perceived by many to be more interested in selling newspapers than they are in reporting all the facts...but then what's new?

In what way is the fact that his alleged millions of supporters worldwide have nearly reached their target of £25k newsworthy in itself (aside perhaps for Natasha Donn of the Portugal Resident)?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on May 31, 2015, 11:16:17 AM
In what way is the fact that his alleged millions of supporters worldwide have nearly reached their target of £25k newsworthy in itself (aside perhaps for Natasha Donn of the Portugal Resident)?

Ordinarily I might agree with that view Carana but for what appears to be for the most part British donors to flock to the aid of a Portuguese national in the way they have done must be unprecedented.

Re a separate thread, I'll see what we can do but this thread reaches to 80 pages now so might be difficult to split.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2015, 11:19:03 AM
LOL

Irony klaxon moment.

What "truth"? Ascertaining the material truth has been left out of the equation and (IMO) is what is causing confusion for people accustomed to an anglophone understanding of what a libel case would involve.

ETA for Admin: wouldn't the fund-raising for his legal defence be better on a separate thread?

Yep.

I'm one that's never understood that.

If matters of truth or untruth are irrelevant, then what is the point of libel laws?

Perhaps JP can explain?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2015, 11:41:03 AM
So to be clear, Amaral has lied:

That Mark Harrison turned the investigation into one for a little girl assumed dead when Mark Harrison did no such thing

That Mark Harrison said Madeleine's body was buried in close proximity to PdL when Harrison, explicitly ruled out burial

That Amaral contradicted and corrected Prior on interpretation of the forensic results when Amaral's own misunderstanding of forensics is incompetent.

That Stuart Prior rang the FSS to berate them on the subject of the PJ's powers of arrest (when Prior, almost certainly, did no such thing)

That Eddie 'scented death' all over the place when both Harrison and Grime made plain that no incriminating inferences could be drawn from dog alerts.

That the McCanns launched a fraudulent appeal in their (dead) daughter's name when the accounts are in apple-pie order, and there is still no clue of what happened to Madeleine.

All that and more ....

Yet Amaral will be allowed to appeal?

On what grounds?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 31, 2015, 12:06:20 PM
Yep.

I'm one that's never understood that.

If matters of truth or untruth are irrelevant, then what is the point of libel laws?

Perhaps JP can explain?

Its complicated!!  But in précis form - Usually truth will be an absolute defence to libel.  However, if a statement is made with "malicious intent" then it is intent that can be the pivotal factor and the intent can override the fact.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on May 31, 2015, 12:08:45 PM
So to be clear, Amaral has lied:

That Mark Harrison turned the investigation into one for a little girl assumed dead when Mark Harrison did no such thing

That Mark Harrison said Madeleine's body was buried in close proximity to PdL when Harrison, explicitly ruled out burial

That Amaral contradicted and corrected Prior on interpretation of the forensic results when Amaral's own misunderstanding of forensics is incompetent.

That Stuart Prior rang the FSS to berate them on the subject of the PJ's powers of arrest (when Prior, almost certainly, did no such thing)

That Eddie 'scented death' all over the place when both Harrison and Grime made plain that no incriminating inferences could be drawn from dog alerts.

That the McCanns launched a fraudulent appeal in their (dead) daughter's name when the accounts are in apple-pie order, and there is still no clue of what happened to Madeleine.

All that and more ....

Yet Amaral will be allowed to appeal?

On what grounds?

The accounts are in apple-pie order ? The aims of the fund are so broad that the McCanns could use it to take out a contract on Amaral's life and the payment to the hitman could be justified.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on May 31, 2015, 12:09:15 PM
So to be clear, Amaral has lied:

That Mark Harrison turned the investigation into one for a little girl assumed dead when Mark Harrison did no such thing

That Mark Harrison said Madeleine's body was buried in close proximity to PdL when Harrison, explicitly ruled out burial

That Amaral contradicted and corrected Prior on interpretation of the forensic results when Amaral's own misunderstanding of forensics is incompetent.

That Stuart Prior rang the FSS to berate them on the subject of the PJ's powers of arrest (when Prior, almost certainly, did no such thing)

That Eddie 'scented death' all over the place when both Harrison and Grime made plain that no incriminating inferences could be drawn from dog alerts.

That the McCanns launched a fraudulent appeal in their (dead) daughter's name when the accounts are in apple-pie order, and there is still no clue of what happened to Madeleine.

All that and more ....

Yet Amaral will be allowed to appeal?

On what grounds?

You don't know what was being said behind the scenes Ferryman. Is it not a fact that officers from Leicestershire Police supported Gonçalo in the death in the apartment theory otherwise why bother to bring in Martin Grime and the dogs?

I'll bet there are officers from LP who could tell us a thing or two and a few home truths about this investigation but are constrained from doing so because of the Official Secrets Act.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2015, 12:10:09 PM
Its complicated!!  But in précis form - Usually truth will be an absolute defence to libel.  However, if a statement is made with "malicious intent" then it is intent that can be the pivotal factor and the intent can override the fact.

So in other words, you can get away with untruths that don't have malicious intent.

Is that right?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2015, 12:14:38 PM
Is it not a fact that officers from Leicestershire Police supported Gonçalo in the death in the apartment theory otherwise why bother to bring in Martin Grime and the dogs?

No, what happened was that Mark Harrison was handed a brief to consider that Madeleine had been murdered, and recommended (freelance!) Martin Grime and his dogs to assist with the investigaton

Nothing to do with Leicestershire Police at all.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 31, 2015, 12:17:32 PM
So in other words, you can get away with untruths that don't have malicious intent.

Is that right?

No.  Sometimes you can tell the truth, but with malicious intent, and lose an action for libel.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 31, 2015, 12:20:17 PM
So to be clear, Amaral has lied:

That Mark Harrison turned the investigation into one for a little girl assumed dead when Mark Harrison did no such thing

That Mark Harrison said Madeleine's body was buried in close proximity to PdL when Harrison, explicitly ruled out burial

That Amaral contradicted and corrected Prior on interpretation of the forensic results when Amaral's own misunderstanding of forensics is incompetent.

That Stuart Prior rang the FSS to berate them on the subject of the PJ's powers of arrest (when Prior, almost certainly, did no such thing)

That Eddie 'scented death' all over the place when both Harrison and Grime made plain that no incriminating inferences could be drawn from dog alerts.

That the McCanns launched a fraudulent appeal in their (dead) daughter's name when the accounts are in apple-pie order, and there is still no clue of what happened to Madeleine.

All that and more ....

Yet Amaral will be allowed to appeal?

On what grounds?

Of course he is.  The ability to appeal a judgment is one of checks and balances of proper justice system. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2015, 12:22:40 PM
The accounts are in apple-pie order ? The aims of the fund are so broad that the McCanns could use it to take out a contract on Amaral's life and the payment to the hitman could be justified.

Sorry you don't like the aim of the funds, Faith.

I'm sure you'll find a way to cope.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2015, 12:29:54 PM
Of course he is.  The ability to appeal a judgment is one of checks and balances of proper justice system.

But entitled to the assumption that his cited grounds of appeal will be permitted?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 31, 2015, 12:35:29 PM
But entitled to the assumption that his cited grounds of appeal will be permitted?

He will have to have some grounds for appeal - otherwise the higher court will simply rubber stamp the first instance courts ruling. 

But yes, if he can find something to appeal then it should be permitted. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 31, 2015, 12:41:04 PM
So to be clear, Amaral has lied:

That Mark Harrison turned the investigation into one for a little girl assumed dead when Mark Harrison did no such thing

That Mark Harrison said Madeleine's body was buried in close proximity to PdL when Harrison, explicitly ruled out burial

That Amaral contradicted and corrected Prior on interpretation of the forensic results when Amaral's own misunderstanding of forensics is incompetent.

That Stuart Prior rang the FSS to berate them on the subject of the PJ's powers of arrest (when Prior, almost certainly, did no such thing)

That Eddie 'scented death' all over the place when both Harrison and Grime made plain that no incriminating inferences could be drawn from dog alerts.

That the McCanns launched a fraudulent appeal in their (dead) daughter's name when the accounts are in apple-pie order, and there is still no clue of what happened to Madeleine.

All that and more ....

Yet Amaral will be allowed to appeal?

On what grounds?

That is an interesting bit of syntax. If the misunderstanding is incompetent then the understanding must be competent? "I don't believe you wanted to do that!"

I don't think he was referring to how the accounts are presented.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 31, 2015, 12:56:51 PM
So to be clear, Amaral has lied:

That Mark Harrison turned the investigation into one for a little girl assumed dead when Mark Harrison did no such thing

That Mark Harrison said Madeleine's body was buried in close proximity to PdL when Harrison, explicitly ruled out burial

That Amaral contradicted and corrected Prior on interpretation of the forensic results when Amaral's own misunderstanding of forensics is incompetent.

That Stuart Prior rang the FSS to berate them on the subject of the PJ's powers of arrest (when Prior, almost certainly, did no such thing)

That Eddie 'scented death' all over the place when both Harrison and Grime made plain that no incriminating inferences could be drawn from dog alerts.

That the McCanns launched a fraudulent appeal in their (dead) daughter's name when the accounts are in apple-pie order, and there is still no clue of what happened to Madeleine.

All that and more ....

Yet Amaral will be allowed to appeal?

On what grounds?


I find that your points would be perfectly valid in a UK libel trial - and may well explain why no established UK publisher would have ever touched the book / docu drama with a barge pole.

I agree with you that numerous details aren't substantiated in the files and - to be generous - that he has a garbled understanding of much of what was in the files.

And even what is in the files had never been tested in a criminal trial prosecuting the former arguidos.


However... the judge ruled (as did the appeals court in Murat's case) that establishing the "truth" of the "facts" wasn't the remit of the civil court in the trials in question.

This appears to be a blanket judgement covering the whole issue of "truth": questioning the veracity of the "facts" in the files, the "information" received via hearsay and the "interpretation" of said "information" would stray beyond the remit - which appears to be about relative rights.

The judge bypassed all of that by referring to the AG's assessment, based on all of the files, which came to a different conclusion.



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on May 31, 2015, 01:00:52 PM
Is it not a fact that officers from Leicestershire Police supported Gonçalo in the death in the apartment theory otherwise why bother to bring in Martin Grime and the dogs?

No, what happened was that Mark Harrison was handed a brief to consider that Madeleine had been murdered, and recommended (freelance!) Martin Grime and his dogs to assist with the investigaton

Nothing to do with Leicestershire Police at all.

Don't be silly, he was tasked by both Leicestershire Police and the Portuguese Police.

Quote

On 20.07.2007 I was sent by NPIA to Portugal with the  goal of helping the Leicestershire police and the Policia Judiciaria relative to the disappearance of a child, Madeleine McCann, missing since 03.05.07 from Praia da Luz, Algarve, Portugal.

The terms of assistance we agreed to provide were directed by the PJ Regional Director, Guilhermino ENCARNACO after consultation with DI Neil HOLDEN of the Leicestershire Police and myself, the details of which are on page two of the document I authored, titled “Decision Support Document in the Search for Madeleine McCann” dated 23.07.2007 and presented as evidence MH4.

www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON-RIGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 31, 2015, 01:07:03 PM
Its complicated!!  But in précis form - Usually truth will be an absolute defence to libel.  However, if a statement is made with "malicious intent" then it is intent that can be the pivotal factor and the intent can override the fact.

Malicious intent didn't come into the equation of the Murat appeal trial, though, did it?

(Aside from the cat-shagging "testimony" which was apparently the subject of a different trial.)

On the other hand, that case was against a newspaper, and therefore involved media laws.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 31, 2015, 01:11:36 PM
Don't be silly, he was tasked by both Leicestershire Police and the Portuguese Police.

www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON-RIGATORY.htm

The terms of assistance we agreed to provide were directed by the PJ Regional Director, Guilhermino ENCARNACO after consultation with DI Neil HOLDEN of the Leicestershire Police and myself, the details of which are on page two of the document I authored, titled “Decision Support Document in the Search for Madeleine McCann” dated 23.07.2007 and presented as evidence MH4.

Harrison also proposed further searches... for some reason these weren't part of the terms agreed upon.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2015, 01:12:00 PM
Don't be silly, he was tasked by both Leicestershire Police and the Portuguese Police.

www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON-RIGATORY.htm

No clue what point you're trying to make.

Leicestershire police had nothing to do with the recruitment of Grime and his dogs.

Grime worked for South Yorkshire Police (before he went freelance,
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 31, 2015, 01:16:56 PM
Don't be silly, he was tasked by both Leicestershire Police and the Portuguese Police.

www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON-RIGATORY.htm

In making this assumption, are you referring to his report of 23/07/2007 John?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2015, 02:05:27 PM
So, can someone please give me, at least a hypothetical idea, what grounds of appeal Amaral or his lawyer might cite that would be considered an acceptable basis for an appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 31, 2015, 02:13:52 PM
So, can someone please give me, at least a hypothetical idea, what grounds of appeal Amaral or his lawyer might cite that would be considered an acceptable basis for an appeal?

His post-ruling spoutings in the media may give an indication...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2015, 02:32:25 PM
His post-ruling spoutings in the media may give an indication...

Neglect!

Ruled out by the prosecutors.

I'm more bemused than ever, not least if he is going to leave behind the central theme of his book (comprehensively disproven).

I mean, how can he simply walk away from what he's already written
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 31, 2015, 03:16:18 PM
Are we concerned because we don't believe Sr Amaral should be allowed a facility available to all others, because of the perception he is such bad heavy dude he is not entitled to due process because we say so?
Normal grounds for appeal go like this:
The judgement is wrong in that it erred in law, in fact or in the exercise the court's discretion.
The judgement is unjust because of a procedural or other irregularity in the proceedings in the lower court.
Then in this instance there are points Montclair drew attention to ie the level of damages etc.
Posters may be surprised at the number of appeals against magistrates rulings in this country simply because the magistrates in effect "exceeded their authority". Appeals against judgements in higher courts on similar grounds are not totally unknown.
If Sr Amaral is entitled to appeal his application will be upheld and the whole thing will do another couple of laps; why worry?.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 31, 2015, 03:20:48 PM
Are we concerned because we don't believe Sr Amaral should be allowed a facility available to all others, because of the perception he is such bad heavy dude he is not entitled to due process because we say so?
Normal grounds for appeal go like this:
The judgement is wrong in that it erred in law, in fact or in the exercise the court's discretion.
The judgement is unjust because of a procedural or other irregularity in the proceedings in the lower court.
Then in this instance there are points Montclair drew attention to ie the level of damages etc.
Posters may be surprised at the number of appeals against magistrates rulings in this country simply because the magistrates in effect "exceeded their authority". Appeals against judgements in higher courts on similar grounds are not totally unknown.
If Sr Amaral is entitled to appeal his application will be upheld and the whole thing will do another couple of laps; why worry?.

Precisely, but some do love to get worked up about this sort of thing, particularly if the name Amaral is involved.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 31, 2015, 03:26:42 PM
Are we concerned because we don't believe Sr Amaral should be allowed a facility available to all others, because of the perception he is such bad heavy dude he is not entitled to due process because we say so?
Normal grounds for appeal go like this:
The judgement is wrong in that it erred in law, in fact or in the exercise the court's discretion.
The judgement is unjust because of a procedural or other irregularity in the proceedings in the lower court.
Then in this instance there are points Montclair drew attention to ie the level of damages etc.
Posters may be surprised at the number of appeals against magistrates rulings in this country simply because the magistrates in effect "exceeded their authority". Appeals against judgements in higher courts on similar grounds are not totally unknown.
If Sr Amaral is entitled to appeal his application will be upheld and the whole thing will do another couple of laps; why worry?.

Who is getting worked up about his right to appeal? 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on May 31, 2015, 03:29:03 PM
As this topic has attracted over 1200 posts, somebody must be  8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2015, 03:32:59 PM
Are we concerned because we don't believe Sr Amaral should be allowed a facility available to all others, because of the perception he is such bad heavy dude he is not entitled to due process because we say so?
Normal grounds for appeal go like this:
The judgement is wrong in that it erred in law, in fact or in the exercise the court's discretion.
The judgement is unjust because of a procedural or other irregularity in the proceedings in the lower court.
Then in this instance there are points Montclair drew attention to ie the level of damages etc.
Posters may be surprised at the number of appeals against magistrates rulings in this country simply because the magistrates in effect "exceeded their authority". Appeals against judgements in higher courts on similar grounds are not totally unknown.
If Sr Amaral is entitled to appeal his application will be upheld and the whole thing will do another couple of laps; why worry?.

I just can't see how the final chapter of Amaral's book can be squared with that part of the Prosecutors' report which makes plain the McCanns are innocent of any crime leaving any scope for Amaral to appeal.

The present enquiry is not remotely considering the McCanns, or any of their friends.

So what will be the basis of Amaral's appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 31, 2015, 03:33:30 PM
as far as I can see, just discussion and speculation about the appeal process, the timescale, the costs of brining the appeal and the possible grounds for appeal.

Which is rather what this forum is for.

Any problems with that?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2015, 03:40:30 PM
I just can't see how the final chapter of Amaral's book can be squared with that part of the Prosecutors' report which makes plain the McCanns are innocent of any crime leaving any scope for Amaral to appeal.

The present enquiry is not remotely considering the McCanns, or any of their friends.

So what will be the basis of Amaral's appeal?

The judge said the McCanns were entitled to be presumed innocent by Amaral because he was a retired police officer. Had he been a civilian he could have said what he liked. That's why the publishers didn't have to pay.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2015, 03:42:02 PM
The judge said the McCanns were entitled to be presumed innocent by Amaral because he was a retired police officer. Had he been a civilian he could have said what he liked. That's why the publishers didn't have to pay.

Not true at all ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2015, 03:48:10 PM
Maybe Amaral will have greater joy persuading learned Portuguese judges of a higher jurisdiction that he contradicted and corrected Stuart Prior on interpretation of the forensic results; that Mark Harrison switched the enquiry to one for a little girl assumed dead and stated firmly that Madeleine's concealed remains were in the immediate vicinity of PdL (even though Harrison didn't); that the McCanns set up a fraudulent fund in their (dead) daughter's name (and all the rest) ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on May 31, 2015, 03:59:10 PM
Maybe Amaral will have greater joy persuading learned Portuguese judges of a higher jurisdiction that he contradicted and corrected Stuart Prior on interpretation of the forensic results; that Mark Harrison switched the enquiry to one for a little girl assumed dead and stated firmly that Madeleine's concealed remains were in the immediate vicinity of PdL (even though Harrison didn't); that the McCanns set up a fraudulent fund in their (dead) daughter's name (and all the rest) ....
In court was Mr Amaral's lawyer allowed to present testimony from the personnel of LP Met NPIA SOCA DCU etc who were part of Mr Amaral's investigation? Would they be allowed to testify?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on May 31, 2015, 04:10:50 PM
I just looked and its up to £24340
http://www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA
Please can anyone lend me £665?
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 31, 2015, 04:16:34 PM
Maybe Amaral will have greater joy persuading learned Portuguese judges of a higher jurisdiction that he contradicted and corrected Stuart Prior on interpretation of the forensic results; that Mark Harrison switched the enquiry to one for a little girl assumed dead and stated firmly that Madeleine's concealed remains were in the immediate vicinity of PdL (even though Harrison didn't); that the McCanns set up a fraudulent fund in their (dead) daughter's name (and all the rest) ....

I doubt any of that will enter into the conversation
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 31, 2015, 04:25:51 PM
Who is getting worked up about his right to appeal?

Not me; it is just the next card to play in the game. There seem to be those who don't like the idea though.
Maybe you should give a broad outline of what will happen,i.e. process not conclusion, when the judge(s) review the first judgement should it go that far...............they are hardly likely to believe me.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 31, 2015, 04:29:01 PM
I doubt any of that will enter into the conversation

I doubt it as well. If the veracity of the "facts" underlying the allegations wasn't allowed to be tested in the a quo trial, I don't see how such issues could be raised in an appeal.

ETA: wasn't instead of weren't.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 31, 2015, 04:30:31 PM
I doubt it as well. If the veracity of the "facts" underlying the allegations weren't allowed to be tested in the a quo trial, I don't see how such issues could be raised in an appeal.

Only things raised in the original trial can be heard / tested at appeal, for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on May 31, 2015, 04:36:27 PM
Only things raised in the original trial can be heard / tested at appeal, for obvious reasons.

That's my understanding as well.

ETA:

Artigo 640.º (art.º 685.º-B CPC 1961)
Ónus a cargo do recorrente que impugne a decisão relativa à matéria de facto   

1 - Quando seja impugnada a decisão sobre a matéria de facto, deve o recorrente obrigatoriamente especificar, sob pena de rejeição:

a) Os concretos pontos de facto que considera incorretamente julgados;

b) Os concretos meios probatórios, constantes do processo ou de registo ou gravação nele realizada, que impunham decisão sobre os pontos da matéria de facto impugnados diversa da recorrida;
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on May 31, 2015, 04:53:12 PM
We know how Mr Amaral's lawyer is paid - by whatever of his own money he is allowed to access and by a fund which is any minute going to reach £25000. All very transparent.

How are the lawyers opposing Mr Amaral being paid?
Is it from the proceeds of other litigation? Is it by the fund?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 31, 2015, 05:05:39 PM
We know how Mr Amaral's lawyer is paid - by whatever of his own money he is allowed to access and by a fund which is any minute going to reach £25000. All very transparent.

How are the lawyers opposing Mr Amaral being paid?
Is it from the proceeds of other litigation? Is it by the fund?

  I do not think the McCanns or Amaral are under an obligation to disclose that information to members of an obscure forum.  The court will know, however.



 

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on May 31, 2015, 05:49:22 PM
  I do not think the McCanns or Amaral are under an obligation to disclose that information to members of an obscure forum.  The court will know, however.
Funding can be transparent and open, and the gofund page certainly is.
One bank account, donations go into it, and only legal costs come out, that is transparency.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 31, 2015, 05:58:40 PM
Funding can be transparent and open, and the gofund page certainly is.
One bank account, donations go into it, and only legal costs come out, that is transparency.

So the legal fees are being straight out of the Gofundme account?

Or out of the PJGA account?

Which is it?



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 31, 2015, 06:01:09 PM
Funding can be transparent and open, and the gofund page certainly is.
One bank account, donations go into it, and only legal costs come out, that is transparency.
Who says?  Where will we be able to see detailed accounts?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2015, 06:54:13 PM
Not true at all ...

If so, why did the other two defendants not have to pay? Only Amaral because of his job. The award to the McCanns  was ordered solely because the judge said Amaral was restricted by the terms of his job - secrecy and presumption of innocence.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2015, 06:57:06 PM
So the legal fees are being straight out of the Gofundme account?

Or out of the PJGA account?

Which is it?

The gofundme money is being transferred to the PJGA account according to Leanne further back in this thread.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 31, 2015, 07:04:27 PM
If so, why did the other two defendants not have to pay? Only Amaral because of his job. The award to the McCanns  was ordered solely because the judge said Amaral was restricted by the terms of his job - secrecy and presumption of innocence.

I'll go with that as far as Mr Amaral is concerned.

How do you fancy your chances if you popped over to Portugal with a couple of friends and started distributing flyers making allegations about Mr Murat and attesting he was guilty of ... whatever.
Do you think your freedom of speech as a civilian would protect you from impugning Mr Murat's right to a presumption of innocence ... or do you think it possible you might be giving Mr Murat grounds to take action against you?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 31, 2015, 07:06:24 PM
The gofundme money is being transferred to the PJGA account according to Leanne further back in this thread.
Who manages and has access to that account? 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 31, 2015, 07:06:58 PM
Who says?  Where will we be able to see detailed accounts?

Write to the fund managers for a copy of the accounts enclosing a postal order in a sum to cover copying and administrative costs?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 31, 2015, 07:09:18 PM
Write to the fund managers for a copy of the accounts enclosing a postal order in a sum to cover copying and administrative costs?
If I do so and don't get a reply what should I deduce from this...?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 31, 2015, 07:18:55 PM
The gofundme money is being transferred to the PJGA account according to Leanne further back in this thread.

Thank you.  So there has not been any changes.

How transparent is the PJGA account?  For example, do you happen to know when the last accounts made available? 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 31, 2015, 07:42:27 PM
If I do so and don't get a reply what should I deduce from this...?
That would depend on whether or not the PO was cashed and the time lapse.
But given the PO was not cashed then generally if one does not hear:
The communication failed to reach its destination.
The recipients organisation lost it before it could be actioned.
The recipient couldn't be bothered for what ever reason to respond.
Other than that we would be guessing.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 31, 2015, 07:59:19 PM
Why are some people so worried about the fund?  The people who have decided to donate aren't worried about it. That's what is important.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 31, 2015, 08:00:21 PM
Why are some people so worried about the fund?  The people who have decided to donate aren't worried about it. That's what is important.
How do you know?  Spoken to all of them have you?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2015, 08:13:07 PM
So let me see if I can clear this up, once and for all.

I understand that by Portuguese libel law, in common with most countries of the world that have libel laws, but unlike the UK, the onus is on the party(ies) bringing an action to establish the untruth of statements that lower reputation.

A slight concern about the McCanns' action is that Kate wrote her own book, which might have invoked the principle: to s/he who is willing, no harm can come.

But that principle is annulled by clear proof that Amaral breached judicial secrecy in writing his book.

And the McCanns can, and have, demonstrated in spades that heaps in Amaral's book, video and interviews (that lower repuation) is also manifestly untrue.

So while Amaral may apply for leave to appeal, what possible grounds will he find?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 31, 2015, 08:59:29 PM
So let me see if I can clear this up, once and for all.

I understand that by Portuguese libel law, in common with most countries of the world that have libel laws, but unlike the UK, the onus is on the party(ies) bringing an action to establish the untruth of statements that lower reputation.

A slight concern about the McCanns' action is that Kate wrote her own book, which might have invoked the principle: to s/he who is willing, no harm can come.

But that principle is annulled by clear proof that Amaral breached judicial secrecy in writing his book.

And the McCanns can, and have, demonstrated in spades that heaps in Amaral's book, video and interviews (that lower repuation) is also manifestly untrue.

So while Amaral may apply for leave to appeal, what possible grounds will he find?

Not quite.  The verdict of the court turned on Amarals job.

(a)  As a police officer he had a duty to uphold the law and this includes to maintain the right of presumption of innocence.  This continues even though he is retired.

(b) He wrote his book making great play of being a police officer and the coordinator of the case.  This lent his tale greater credibility and meant that it was taken more seriously and sold more than if it had been written by Joe Blogs.

(c) a further point was that he published it very soon after the files were realised and so was using privileged information. 

All in all, he abused his position, and is paying the price.

   

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2015, 09:07:51 PM
Not quite.  The verdict of the court turned on Amarals job.

(a)  As a police officer he had a duty to uphold the law and this includes to maintain the right of presumption of innocence.  This continues even though he is retired.

(b) He wrote his book making great play of being a police officer and the coordinator of the case.  This lent his tale greater credibility and meant that it was taken more seriously and sold more than if it had been written by Joe Blogs.

(c) a further point was that he published it very soon after the files were realised and so was using privileged information. 

All in all, he abused his position, and is paying the price.

 

Would you go with the view, then, that if he had written the book as a private citizen (without access to privileged information) he'd have gotten away with it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on May 31, 2015, 09:12:05 PM
Why are some people so worried about the fund?  The people who have decided to donate aren't worried about it. That's what is important.

Hmmm ... don't think that is quite the opinion held about Madeleine's Fund.  Can you explain why the difference?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 31, 2015, 09:16:10 PM
Good news for the mccann supporters.

The fund has reached the £25,000 and the 'appeal will be filed in due tme'.



 8)--)) 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 31, 2015, 09:17:56 PM
Would you go with the view, then, that if he had written the book as a private citizen (without access to privileged information) he'd have gotten away with it?

Yes.  I think he would. 

How much interest would it have aroused?  And how many copies would it have sold? 

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2015, 09:22:54 PM
Yes.  I think he would. 

How much interest would it have aroused?  And how many copies would it have sold?

But not because, in a legal sense, he deserved to get away with it; simply because the McCanns wouldn't have bothered to pursue it.

Is that right?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 31, 2015, 09:29:08 PM
But not because, in a legal sense, he deserved to get away with it; simply because the McCanns wouldn't have bothered to pursue it.

Is that right?

They are pursuing it because he is damaging the search for Madeleine. 

If the book had been written by Joe Blogs then it would not have sold well and would not have damaged the search.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 31, 2015, 09:31:08 PM
They are pursuing it because he is damaging the search for Madeleine. 

If the book had been written by Joe Blogs then it would not have sold well and would not have damaged the search.

No.

It has never harmed the 'search' for Madeleine.

Pull the other one.

Just another myth perpetuated by the mccanns and their limited band is supporters
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 31, 2015, 09:33:22 PM
They are pursuing it because he is damaging the search for Madeleine. 

If the book had been written by Joe Blogs then it would not have sold well and would not have damaged the search.

The judge stated in her verdict that it was not proven that the book damaged the search for Madeleine.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on May 31, 2015, 09:39:50 PM
Not quite.  The verdict of the court turned on Amarals job.

(a)  As a police officer he had a duty to uphold the law and this includes to maintain the right of presumption of innocence.  This continues even though he is retired.

(b) He wrote his book making great play of being a police officer and the coordinator of the case.  This lent his tale greater credibility and meant that it was taken more seriously and sold more than if it had been written by Joe Blogs.

(c) a further point was that he published it very soon after the files were realised and so was using privileged information. 

All in all, he abused his position, and is paying the price.

 

If Gonçalo Amaral had abused his position, why was he never sanctioned by the PJ hierarchy? IIRC, Isabel Duarte rushed to a court in Oeiras, along with the McCann couple, to file a complaint against GA for not respecting the secret of justice. This was in 2010 and I don't remember him being accused by the Ministério Público for this. The arguments in the judgement could have come from the mouth of Isabel Duarte, they have always been her "cheval de bataille".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2015, 09:43:06 PM
If Gonçalo Amaral had abused his position, why was he never sanctioned by the PJ hierarchy? IIRC, Isabel Duarte rushed to a court in Oeiras, along with the McCann couple, to file a complaint against GA for not respecting the secret of justice. This was in 2010 and I don't remember him being accused by the Ministério Público for this. The arguments in the judgement could have come from the mouth of Isabel Duarte, they have always been her "cheval de bataille".

No clue why Amaral was let off the hook for breaching judicial secrecy.

But he assuredly did (breach judicial secrecy).

Have you, yet, got the hang of the fact that in the next round, Amaral will be the appellant?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on May 31, 2015, 09:44:20 PM
Good news for the mccann supporters.

The fund has reached the £25,000 and the 'appeal will be filed in due tme'.



 8)--)) 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Fantastic.
BTW how many UK papers will report this tomorrow?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 31, 2015, 09:54:19 PM
Fantastic.
BTW how many UK papers will report this tomorrow?

We shall see shortly.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 31, 2015, 09:58:01 PM
Yes we shall see shortly, although why there seems to be so much excitement over "what the MSM will say" I have not a clue.

The important thing is that Amaral will be properly represented at the appeal, and will not have a bar to proceeding with it should he so decide. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on May 31, 2015, 10:04:32 PM
We shall see shortly.
My prediction is that whatever expert does the anti-Amaral PR will try to get the word "trolls" pasted into every article as it passes the editors' desks.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on May 31, 2015, 10:21:20 PM

I am no longer even remotely inclined to pronounce on Portuguese Law because it is entirely beyond my comprehension.

I perfectly understand why The Judge ruled as she did, but for reasons that wouldn't have taken me five years to get to.  These reasons were so obvious that no Court Case should have been necessary in the first place.

You all know the rest of what I might have to say.  Goncalo Amaral broke every rule in the book, even according to their bizarre Laws.

So don't imagine that The Judge is an idiot.  She most seriously does not want her ruling to be overturned.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 31, 2015, 11:10:07 PM
Good news for the mccann supporters.

The fund has reached the £25,000 and the 'appeal will be filed in due tme'.



 8)--)) 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(

Oh bother I got it wrong again dad! I said it would take about 6 weeks.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 31, 2015, 11:11:16 PM
Oh bother I got it wrong again dad! I said it would take about 6 weeks.
Yes, you sure did underestimate the fanatical zeal of the Ammy Barmy Army!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2015, 11:20:16 PM
Posted today;

Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral's Legal Defence account has received since April 28, 2015

- through Paypal:

€ 5643.62 (five thousand six hundred forty three euro and sixty two cents)
and
$ 90.57 (ninety dollars and fifty seven cents)

- through the GoFundMe page created by Leanne Baulch:

£ 23,910 (twenty three thousand nine hundred and ten pounds)

These amounts will be applied to cover expenses with the defence of Gonçalo Amaral, in the civil suit brought against him by the McCann family.

The appeal is being prepared by Mr Amaral's lawyers and will be filed in due time.

Once the appeal is filed, PJGA will publish a statement.

At this point, we would like to, once again, thank you for your immense support - and patience.
http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk


The fund now stands at;

£25,300 of £25k

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 01, 2015, 12:32:22 PM
Oh bother I got it wrong again dad! I said it would take about 6 weeks.


Not sure if that effort measures up to the £40,000 raised in three days using the same method of subscription, to unseat Mr Carmichael ... maybe it doesn't count since it didn't reach its target.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3103604/Court-bid-oust-former-Lib-Dem-minister-Alistair-Carmichael-MP-revelation-leaked-Sturgeon-memo.html#ixzz3boBMfGez

The Law seems to be an expensive business both here and in Portugal ... is anyone in the position to know if the Portuguese collection for Mr Amaral's Fund matches the British one?

Should be easy enough for those in the know to find out ... transparency and all that.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 01, 2015, 12:44:52 PM

Not sure if that effort measures up to the £40,000 raised in three days using the same method of subscription, to unseat Mr Carmichael ... maybe it doesn't count since it didn't reach its target.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3103604/Court-bid-oust-former-Lib-Dem-minister-Alistair-Carmichael-MP-revelation-leaked-Sturgeon-memo.html#ixzz3boBMfGez

The Law seems to be an expensive business both here and in Portugal ... is anyone in the position to know if the Portuguese collection for Mr Amaral's Fund matches the British one?

Should be easy enough for those in the know to find out ... transparency and all that.

The fund isn't restricted to a single country and all the donations are available for viewing if you care to trawl through them
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 01, 2015, 12:49:25 PM

Not sure if that effort measures up to the £40,000 raised in three days using the same method of subscription, to unseat Mr Carmichael ... maybe it doesn't count since it didn't reach its target.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3103604/Court-bid-oust-former-Lib-Dem-minister-Alistair-Carmichael-MP-revelation-leaked-Sturgeon-memo.html#ixzz3boBMfGez

The Law seems to be an expensive business both here and in Portugal ... is anyone in the position to know if the Portuguese collection for Mr Amaral's Fund matches the British one?

Should be easy enough for those in the know to find out ... transparency and all that.

I suspect that apart from a few people with an axe to grind and a few more with just a passing interest no one really cares about any of it.
Quote from Kirk Douglas and John Wayne in "The War Wagon":
"Mine hit the ground first!"
"Mine was taller!"
 8(*(
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 01, 2015, 01:05:11 PM
The fund isn't restricted to a single country and all the donations are available for viewing if you care to trawl through them

Thanks to Pamalam trawling through the comments is much less of a chore ... but no less diverting. 
However the transparency of the of the PJGA side of things seem as opaque as it always has been.     8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 01, 2015, 01:11:04 PM
I suspect that apart from a few people with an axe to grind and a few more with just a passing interest no one really cares about any of it.
Quote from Kirk Douglas and John Wayne in "The War Wagon":
"Mine hit the ground first!"
"Mine was taller!"
 8(*(

I suspect what you suspect might very well be a distinct probability.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 01, 2015, 01:58:41 PM
What I find amusing is people who claim to not know the McCANNS get upset and bothered about Amaral- who was not involved in any way of Madeleines disappearance. I mean it is play ground mentality. Parents hate Amaral so we hate him too. men a men a...dood doo de doo dah

He stood up to the parents! and dared to challenge their 'abduction' story.  And why not!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 01, 2015, 02:02:18 PM
Thanks to Pamalam trawling through the comments is much less of a chore ... but no less diverting. 
However the transparency of the of the PJGA side of things seem as opaque as it always has been.     8(0(*

Now when it comes to opaque there's nothing like the mccanns fund.

They do like their first class travel and accommodation.

 *&*%£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 01, 2015, 02:05:44 PM
What I find amusing is people who claim to not know the McCANNS get upset and bothered about Amaral- who was not involved in any way of Madeleines disappearance. I mean it is play ground mentality. Parents hate Amaral so we hate him too. men a men a...dood doo de doo dah

He stood up to the parents! and dared to challenge their 'abduction' story.  And why not!

Nicely put. 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 01, 2015, 02:10:39 PM
What I find amusing is people who claim to not know the McCANNS get upset and bothered about Amaral- who was not involved in any way of Madeleines disappearance. I mean it is play ground mentality. Parents hate Amaral so we hate him too. men a men a...dood doo de doo dah

He stood up to the parents! and dared to challenge their 'abduction' story.  And why not!

Amaral's methodology (in 'finding' that the McCanns had something sinister to hide) lacked rigour and failed to stand up to close scrutiny.

That's why we tend to dismiss his conclusions with disdain. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 01, 2015, 02:15:50 PM
Amaral's methodology (in 'finding' that the McCanns had something sinister to hide) lacked rigour and failed to stand up to close scrutiny.

That's why we tend to dismiss his conclusions with disdain.

No ferryman, it's because you back the mccanns and have never criticized what they did.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 01, 2015, 02:19:49 PM
It always seems to be either or with some people.
 It is perfectly reasonable to reject Amarals' findings, while at the same time disbelieving the McCanns version of events.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 01, 2015, 02:24:12 PM
Amaral's methodology (in 'finding' that the McCanns had something sinister to hide) lacked rigour and failed to stand up to close scrutiny.

That's why we tend to dismiss his conclusions with disdain.



And that is ok . You disagree with the way he did things. I have no opinion on that I wasn't there. I believe you and others have a  right to question his methodology, but it is up there with those who question the Parent's theory as a stranger abduction through a window!  The hatred comes from the McCANN CAMP! Unbelievers are called; Skeptics, trolls and  bashers... All done with a smug unknowingness of what happened to little Maddie.

Kate was very forgiving of an abductor who may have raped/tortured/murdered her daughter, but wanted Amaral to live in fear? Not really the behaviour of a sane person now is it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 01, 2015, 02:59:53 PM
Meanwhile Mr. Amaral is on the right course, and the appeal will probably be a year away.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 01, 2015, 05:13:33 PM


And that is ok . You disagree with the way he did things. I have no opinion on that I wasn't there. I believe you and others have a  right to question his methodology, but it is up there with those who question the Parent's theory as a stranger abduction through a window!  The hatred comes from the McCANN CAMP! Unbelievers are called; Skeptics, trolls and  bashers... All done with a smug unknowingness of what happened to little Maddie.

Kate was very forgiving of an abductor who may have raped/tortured/murdered her daughter, but wanted Amaral to live in fear? Not really the behaviour of a sane person now is it?
Was she, or is this just another myth having its regular monthly airing?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 01, 2015, 05:57:54 PM
Was she, or is this just another myth having its regular monthly airing?

Kate did say that she thought she could forgive Madeleine's abductor ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 01, 2015, 06:09:47 PM
Kate did say that she thought she could forgive Madeleine's abductor ....
I know that.  She didn't say she was 'very forgiving' towards Madeleine's abductor though did she?  this is what she said:

‘I think I could probably forgive Madeleine’s abductor whatever the circumstances. I don’t know whether it’s simply because I’m stronger or because there’s no benefit in not forgiving someone.


'I can’t change anything and I don’t want to be eaten up by hatred and bitterness.

'And maybe there is an element of pity - what kind of person could do something like this? Of course, forgiveness will always be easier if there is remorse.’

  ETA: Imagine being vilified for expressing the above sentiments!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 01, 2015, 06:16:14 PM
I know that.  She didn't say she was 'very forgiving' towards Madeleine's abductor though did she?  this is what she said:

‘I think I could probably forgive Madeleine’s abductor whatever the circumstances. I don’t know whether it’s simply because I’m stronger or because there’s no benefit in not forgiving someone.


'I can’t change anything and I don’t want to be eaten up by hatred and bitterness.

'And maybe there is an element of pity - what kind of person could do something like this? Of course, forgiveness will always be easier if there is remorse.’

  ETA: Imagine being vilified for expressing the above sentiments!

CONTEXT
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 01, 2015, 06:18:27 PM
I know that.  She didn't say she was 'very forgiving' towards Madeleine's abductor though did she?  this is what she said:

‘I think I could probably forgive Madeleine’s abductor whatever the circumstances. I don’t know whether it’s simply because I’m stronger or because there’s no benefit in not forgiving someone.


'I can’t change anything and I don’t want to be eaten up by hatred and bitterness.

'And maybe there is an element of pity - what kind of person could do something like this? Of course, forgiveness will always be easier if there is remorse.’

  ETA: Imagine being vilified for expressing the above sentiments!

Giving forgiveness ?

She is far from divine.

I wonder if Madeleine was alive, she would have forgiven her parents for leaving her and her siblings alone and unprotected ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 01, 2015, 06:25:31 PM
I know that.  She didn't say she was 'very forgiving' towards Madeleine's abductor though did she?  this is what she said:

‘I think I could probably forgive Madeleine’s abductor whatever the circumstances. I don’t know whether it’s simply because I’m stronger or because there’s no benefit in not forgiving someone.


'I can’t change anything and I don’t want to be eaten up by hatred and bitterness.

'And maybe there is an element of pity - what kind of person could do something like this? Of course, forgiveness will always be easier if there is remorse.’

  ETA: Imagine being vilified for expressing the above sentiments!

And the most crucial words she uttered:

if there is remorse.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 01, 2015, 06:28:09 PM
Giving forgiveness ?

She is far from divine.

I wonder if Madeleine was alive, she would have forgiven her parents for leaving her and her siblings alone and unprotected ?
I see, so on the one hand you are suggesting that only God can issue forgiveness and on the other you are asking whether or not Madeleine would forgive her parents...you're in a bit of a muddle aren't you?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 01, 2015, 06:47:18 PM
I see, so on the one hand you are suggesting that only God can issue forgiveness and on the other you are asking whether or not Madeleine would forgive her parents...you're in a bit of a muddle aren't you?

I was being sarcastic.

You do know what that means, don't you ? 8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 01, 2015, 06:56:31 PM
I was being sarcastic.

You do know what that means, don't you ? 8(0(*
No I have no idea what it means at all.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 01, 2015, 07:13:14 PM
I know that.  She didn't say she was 'very forgiving' towards Madeleine's abductor though did she?  this is what she said:

‘I think I could probably forgive Madeleine’s abductor whatever the circumstances. I don’t know whether it’s simply because I’m stronger or because there’s no benefit in not forgiving someone.


'I can’t change anything and I don’t want to be eaten up by hatred and bitterness.

'And maybe there is an element of pity - what kind of person could do something like this? Of course, forgiveness will always be easier if there is remorse.’

  ETA: Imagine being vilified for expressing the above sentiments!

Dearest Alfiekins, you are trying to be naughty by demanding verbatim scripts, let's have a closer look  ok your sentence in red...

‘I think I could probably forgive Madeleine’s abductor whatever the circumstances.

Your 3 year old daughter is 'abducted' being raped /tortured/ murdered  forgivness is on offer? really? if they say ...('sorry' very  nicely?) to a stranger or perhaps she knew the person who took (abducted) Madeliene?

I don’t know whether it’s simply because I’m stronger or because there’s no benefit in not forgiving someone.

No benefit in NOT forgiving someone= she was offering forgiveness!

I can’t change anything and I don’t want to be eaten up by hatred and bitterness.


but then...she said about Amaral... oh you know what this very forgiving woman said don't you!

Imagine being vilified for expressing the above sentiments!

Are you suggesting Kate is a villain? those are her words and her behaviour, would you prefer I didn't comment on them ? Does it make me a basher for repeating her words and educating some who may want to understand why a mother can forgive  an 'predatory animal' but hates a guy who wrote a book!

Imagine being villified for doing THAT.
 8)><(





Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 01, 2015, 07:19:03 PM
Dearest Alfiekins, you are trying to be naughty by demanding verbatim scripts, let's have a closer look  ok your sentence in red...

‘I think I could probably forgive Madeleine’s abductor whatever the circumstances.

Your 3 year old daughter is 'abducted' being raped /tortured/ murdered  forgivness is on offer? really? if they say ...('sorry' very  nicely?) to a stranger or perhaps she knew the person who took (abducted) Madeliene?

I don’t know whether it’s simply because I’m stronger or because there’s no benefit in not forgiving someone.

No benefit in NOT forgiving someone= she was offering forgiveness!

I can’t change anything and I don’t want to be eaten up by hatred and bitterness.


but then...she said about Amaral... oh you know what this very forgiving woman said don't you!

Imagine being vilified for expressing the above sentiments!

Are you suggesting Kate is a villain? those are her words and her behaviour, would you prefer I didn't comment on them ? Does it make me a basher for repeating her words and educating some who may want to understand why a mother can forgive  an 'predatory animal' but hates a guy who wrote a book!

Imagine being villified for doing THAT.
 8)><(
Well Kate was and so were Summers and Swan, so not too difficult to imagine actually. 

Out of interest where did Kate write that she could forgive Madeleine's abductor but that she could never forgive Amaral?  My understanding is that Kate would be easier to forgive an abductor who showed remorse, perhaps the same goes for a bent ex-cop who wrote that she'd hidden the body of her daughter on a beach?   &%+((£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 01, 2015, 07:34:22 PM
Well Kate was and so were Summers and Swan, so not too difficult to imagine actually. 

  My understanding is that Kate would be easier to forgive an abductor who showed remorse, perhaps the same goes for a bent ex-cop who wrote that she'd hidden the body of her daughter on a beach?   &%+((£

Out of interest where did Kate write that she could forgive Madeleine's abductor but that she could never forgive Amaral?


Gosh you know, slips my mind... but just came to me that she never offered Amaral forgiveness in any of her interviews!  if only she had said.. you know... to him in court.. but anyway, no matter.
We get the point  that she was suing this  ( I will forgive him if he shows remorse Mr Amaral) Man because of the pain and psychological damage to her and her family- which according to her sister in law was MUCH worse than Maddie being abducted- even the Judge asked about that. But If you are saying you understand Kate would forgive Amaral and drop the case then I miss judged  her entirely...erm where did she hint at that?

Or was that just your understanding based on....?

I never read his book. I never felt the need to. There are many theories out there...His is based on what the police were thinking  at the time rightly or wrongly.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 01, 2015, 08:00:27 PM
Out of interest where did Kate write that she could forgive Madeleine's abductor but that she could never forgive Amaral?


Gosh you know, slips my mind... but just came to me that she never offered Amaral forgiveness in any of her interviews!  if only she had said.. you know... to him in court.. but anyway, no matter.
We get the point  that she was suing this  ( I will forgive him if he shows remorse Mr Amaral) Man because of the pain and psychological damage to her and her family- which according to her sister in law was MUCH worse than Maddie being abducted- even the Judge asked about that. But If you are saying you understand Kate would forgive Amaral and drop the case then I miss judged  her entirely...erm where did she hint at that?

Or was that just your understanding based on....?

I never read his book. I never felt the need to. There are many theories out there...His is based on what the police were thinking  at the time rightly or wrongly.
Never mind where Kate hinted at that, where did I say that?!  I have no idea whether Kate would ever forgive Amaral - maybe she would, I never for one moment said anything about dropping the case against him, so I don't know where you got that from.  I very much doubt Kate's forgiveness would also include a desire for Madeleine's abductor to escape justice either.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 01, 2015, 08:48:32 PM
Never mind where Kate hinted at that, where did I say that?!  I have no idea whether Kate would ever forgive Amaral - maybe she would, I never for one moment said anything about dropping the case against him, so I don't know where you got that from.  I very much doubt Kate's forgiveness would also include a desire for Madeleine's abductor to escape justice either.

Now now Alfiekins... Alfie quote " where did I say that?!"

Right here:

Alfie quote"My understanding is that Kate would be easier to forgive an abductor who showed remorse, perhaps the same goes for a bent ex-cop


 
Alfie quote"I have no idea whether Kate would ever forgive Amaral - maybe she would,"

So it was your understanding which then became 'you had no idea'...

Let us sip a glass of bubbly, with strawberrry's- calm you down a bit!

Kate will not forgive Amaral after all....tsk!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 01, 2015, 09:43:06 PM
Dearest Alfiekins, you are trying to be naughty by demanding verbatim scripts, let's have a closer look  ok your sentence in red...

‘I think I could probably forgive Madeleine’s abductor whatever the circumstances.

Your 3 year old daughter is 'abducted' being raped /tortured/ murdered  forgivness is on offer? really? if they say ...('sorry' very  nicely?) to a stranger or perhaps she knew the person who took (abducted) Madeliene?

I don’t know whether it’s simply because I’m stronger or because there’s no benefit in not forgiving someone.

No benefit in NOT forgiving someone= she was offering forgiveness!

I can’t change anything and I don’t want to be eaten up by hatred and bitterness.


but then...she said about Amaral... oh you know what this very forgiving woman said don't you!

Imagine being vilified for expressing the above sentiments!

Are you suggesting Kate is a villain? those are her words and her behaviour, would you prefer I didn't comment on them ? Does it make me a basher for repeating her words and educating some who may want to understand why a mother can forgive  an 'predatory animal' but hates a guy who wrote a book!

Imagine being villified for doing THAT.
 8)><(

in the situation Kate was in emotions would change daily
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 01, 2015, 09:45:32 PM
in the situation Kate was in emotions would change daily

A self induced situation.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 01, 2015, 09:48:14 PM
A self induced situation.
The abductor is to blame...refer to the previous 10 million posts on this topic
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 01, 2015, 09:58:00 PM
The abductor is to blame...refer to the previous 10 million posts on this topic

A quick sense check in me like reveals about 1100 posters posting at the same rate as you.
Now is that likely?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 01, 2015, 10:03:53 PM
Now now Alfiekins... Alfie quote " where did I say that?!"

Right here:

Alfie quote"My understanding is that Kate would be easier to forgive an abductor who showed remorse, perhaps the same goes for a bent ex-cop


 
Alfie quote"I have no idea whether Kate would ever forgive Amaral - maybe she would,"

So it was your understanding which then became 'you had no idea'...

Let us sip a glass of bubbly, with strawberrry's- calm you down a bit!

Kate will not forgive Amaral after all....tsk!
My exclamation "where did I say that?!" referred to your statement that i suggested Kate would drop the case against Amaral.  I am not in need of champagne either with or without strawberries, thanks.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 01, 2015, 10:06:47 PM
A quick sense check in me like reveals about 1100 posters posting at the same rate as you.
Now is that likely?

I would say approx. 59.326% probable
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 01, 2015, 10:36:18 PM
Hmm, the shit may be about to hit the fan now...

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/445625/Madeline-McCann-Portugal-appeal-25K
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 01, 2015, 10:47:02 PM
Hmm, the shit may be about to hit the fan now...

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/445625/Madeline-McCann-Portugal-appeal-25K

Apparently people and trolls (supernatural beings?) made donations.
Well it should all be good for a laugh if nothing else.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 01, 2015, 10:55:04 PM
My prediction is that whatever expert does the anti-Amaral PR will try to get the word "trolls" pasted into every article as it passes the editors' desks.
Predicted 31st May, proven true 1st June.
The Star begin their article with the big print headline "Sick trolls raised £25k ..."
Pink is such a predictable colour.
Where's that "told you so" smiley when its needed?
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/445625/Madeline-McCann-Portugal-appeal-25K

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 01, 2015, 11:08:07 PM
Predicted 31st May, proven true 1st June.
The Star begin their article with the big print headline "Sick trolls raised £25k ..."
Pink is such a predictable colour.
Where's that "told you so" smiley when its needed?
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/445625/Madeline-McCann-Portugal-appeal-25K

Now can anyone think of a sentence with the word charming troll, in it twice
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 01, 2015, 11:13:32 PM
Apparently people and trolls (supernatural beings?) made donations.
Well it should all be good for a laugh if nothing else.
people, trolls and members of the Metropolitan Police Force, allegedly.  That's the interesting bit. 8(>((
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 01, 2015, 11:32:34 PM
people, trolls and members of the Metropolitan Police Force, allegedly.  That's the interesting bit. 8(>((

"Star reporter accidentally falls out of window while investigating alleged MPS sick troll's contribution to Amaral fund"?
It will all fizzle out in short order.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 01, 2015, 11:36:29 PM
"Star reporter accidentally falls out of window while investigating alleged MPS sick troll's contribution to Amaral fund"?
It will all fizzle out in short order.
Maybe....maybe not. 8)--))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2015, 07:34:06 AM
It'll be interesting to see what happens to the money if Amaral is denied leave to appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2015, 07:54:03 AM
Hopefully we will see a similar article in the Sun........
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2015, 08:08:29 AM
Oh dear.

Some people aren't too happy this morning.

 8)--)) @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on June 02, 2015, 08:48:59 AM
Oh dear.

Some people aren't too happy this morning.

 8)--)) @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

I'm not surprised.  Would you be happy if you had just been described as a 'sick troll' in a national newspaper?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2015, 08:52:13 AM
I'm not surprised.  Would you be happy if you had just been described as a 'sick troll' in a national newspaper?

I am more than aware of exactly  who are the trolls benice.

and the forums they inhabit.  8)--))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 02, 2015, 08:54:33 AM

Posted in: News Posted: June 2, 2015
Madeleine McCann ‘Trolls’ Pay For Amaral Court Appeal

The search for Madeleine McCann remains fruitless, but numerous members of the public — across the world — are publicly showing support for the former detective who notoriously accused her parents of covering up her death. Goncalo Amaral may have lost in court against the missing child’s parents, but more than 1,500 people have come forward to show support for the former cop by paying for his court appeal en masse. The Daily Star has referred to these charitable donors as “sick trolls,” but they’ve nonetheless raised more than the £25,000 needed for his court fees. That means Goncalo Amaral can continue the fight for his right to publish evidence and theories against Kate and Gerry McCann.

Among the 1,559 donors who contributed to the fund, it’s believed that officers with the Metropolitan Police Service also donated a large amount of money. Those presumed officers claimed that they were “outraged at the way in which a senior investigating officer has been treated” in relation to the Madeleine McCann case. The donation from the MPS may not have been what pushed the funds to the intended goal, but it certainly did help.

The fund was started by a 22-year-old Birmingham woman after news broke that Goncalo Amaral had been ordered to pay out hundreds of thousands of dollars to Kate and Gerry McCann. CBS News CrimeSider reports that the McCanns won a libel payout after a long battle pertaining to Amaral’s published book Truth of the Lie, which pointed out all of the investigative evidence against the parents while theorizing and speculating that they may have accidentally killed Madeleine due to negligence before covering up her death. It only took about a month before donations from all over the world funded the entirety of Amaral’s appeal.

Madeleine McCann vanished over a decade ago from her parents’ vacation rental in Portugal. The then-3-year-old child was left alone with her two infant siblings while Kate and Gerry McCann partied with friends at a tapas bar when she disappeared. This detail has long since been a point of contention with members of the public who are split between feeling sympathy for the parents and feeling that they are responsible for at least being negligent with their children. There are also numerous members of the public who have read the available police files regarding the case and support Goncalo Amaral in his pursuit of answers for Maddie.

What do you think about this case? Do you think the people supporting Goncalo Amaral are “vile trolls” like the UK media reports, or are they fighting for justice for a missing child who has no voice?

http://www.inquisitr.com/2137703/madeleine-mccann-trolls-pay-for-amaral-court-appeal/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2015, 09:06:26 AM
Madeleine McCann vanished over a decade ago...

8 years ago (and a bit!)

So, still no official confirmation that Amaral's application to appeal has been submitted?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 02, 2015, 09:10:20 AM
people, trolls and members of the Metropolitan Police Force, allegedly.  That's the interesting bit. 8(>((


Indeed it is. True or false, the editor considered it appropriate to mention that donations had been made by the police.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2015, 09:12:46 AM
What will happen to the money if Amaral is denied leave to appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 02, 2015, 09:24:39 AM
What will happen to the money if Amaral is denied leave to appeal?

I don't think we know, do we? I'm sure it will become clear if his appeal is denied.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2015, 10:09:08 AM
I don't think we know, do we? I'm sure it will become clear if his appeal is denied.

So we still await confirmation that Amaral will appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 02, 2015, 10:15:36 AM
What will happen to the money if Amaral is denied leave to appeal?

Why do you keep thinking that Amaral will be denied leave to appeal? That question has already been answered.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2015, 10:17:19 AM
Why do you keep thinking that Amaral will be denied leave to appeal? That question has already been answered.

No it hasn't.

Amaral hasn't lodged his appeal yet.

When it is lodged, it will be considered and either accepted or declined.

If it is declined, the McCanns will be outright winners at first instance.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 02, 2015, 10:18:39 AM
The 357,000 figure is spooky. 3-5-07
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 02, 2015, 10:21:51 AM
No it hasn't.

Amaral hasn't lodged his appeal yet.

When it is lodged, it will be considered and either accepted or declined.

If it is declined, the McCanns will be outright winners at first instance.

Will they really?
It seems to me that however much MONEY they might receive, they will always be losers, in that they have lost their eldest child.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2015, 10:35:52 AM
Will they really?
It seems to me that however much MONEY they might receive, they will always be losers, in that they have lost their eldest child.

Pretty much the only consolation some people of a certain persuasion will have left ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 02, 2015, 10:37:35 AM
Will they really?
It seems to me that however much MONEY they might receive, they will always be losers, in that they have lost their eldest child.

I agree. Money doesn't buy happiness or restore a reputation. Had an ordinary citizen written the same book as Amaral no award would have been made. He paid for what he said as because he was an ex policeman, no other reason.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 02, 2015, 10:46:58 AM
No it hasn't.

Amaral hasn't lodged his appeal yet.

When it is lodged, it will be considered and either accepted or declined.

If it is declined, the McCanns will be outright winners at first instance.

It will be considered by the Appeals Court. With the amount of € 500.000,00 at stake there is no way that it would not go to the Tribunal da Relação. Haven't you been reading the posts about the appeals procedure.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2015, 11:10:44 AM
It will be considered by the Appeals Court. With the amount of € 500.000,00 at stake there is no way that it would not go to the Tribunal da Relação. Haven't you been reading the posts about the appeals procedure.

I have.

But why should it be necessary to do more than compare the final chapter of Amaral's book (which accuses them of direct complicity in the "death" of their daughter) with that part of the Prosecutors' archiving dispatch which makes plain the McCanns are not implicated at all in their daughter's disappearance?

After that, invite Amaral to packing, surely?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 02, 2015, 11:20:52 AM
I have.

But why should it be necessary to do more than compare the final chapter of Amaral's book (which accuses them of direct complicity in the "death" of their daughter) with that part of the Prosecutors' archiving dispatch which makes plain the McCanns are not implicated at all in their daughter's disappearance?

After that, invite Amaral to packing, surely?

The AG said no such thing Ferryman.  They said there was no evidence of the parents involvement which is a long way from what you inferred.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2015, 11:25:22 AM
The AG said no such thing Ferryman.  They said there was no evidence of the parents involvement which is a long way from what you inferred.

No it's not.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 02, 2015, 11:28:39 AM
No it's not.

Yes it is.  There is no way the AG could make that determination since even the crime if any is unknown.  In any event, he made it crystal clear that the McCanns lost the opportunity to prove/confirm/corroborate what they claimed by the actions of their friends in refusing to cooperate with the investigation.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2015, 11:37:02 AM
Yes it is.  There is no way the AG could make that determination since even the crime if any is unknown.  In any event, he made it crystal clear that the McCanns lost the opportunity to prove/confirm/corroborate what they claimed by the actions of their friends in refusing to cooperate with the investigation.

It seems evident to us and because the files contain enough elements for such, that the crime of exposure or abandonment according to article 138 of the Penal Code can be eliminated from that range:

"1 - Whoever places another person's life in danger,
a) By exposing her in a location where she is subject to a situation from which she, on her own, cannot defend herself against; or
b) Abandoning her without defence, whenever the agent had the duty to guard her, to watch over her or to assist her;"

This legal type of crime is only fulfilled with intent, and this intent has to cover the creation of danger to the victim's life, as well as the absence of a capacity to defend herself, on the victim's behalf. In the case of the files and facing the elements that were collected it is evident that none of the arguidos Gerald or Kate acted with intent. The parents could not foresee that in the resort that they chose to spend a brief holiday, they could place the life of any of their children in danger, nor was that demanded from them: it was located in a peaceful area, where most of the residents are foreign citizens of the same nationality and without any known history of this type of criminality.

The parents didn't even represent the realisation of the fact, they trusted that everything would go well, as it had gone on the previous evenings, thus not equating, nor was it demanded from them, the possibility of the occurrence of an abduction of any of the children that were in their respective apartments.

Reinforcing what was said is also the fact that despite leaving their daughter alone with her siblings in the apartment during more or less dilated moments, it is certain that in any case they checked on them. Without any pretension or compensatory effect, we must also recognise that the parents already expiate a heavy penalty - the disappearance of Madeleine - due to their lack of caution in the surveillance and protection of their children.

Concerning the other indicated crimes, they are no more than that and despite our perception that, due to its high degree of probability, the occurrence of a homicide cannot be discarded, such cannot be more than a mere supposition, due to the lack of sustaining elements in the files.

The non involvement of the arguidos parents of Madeleine in any penally relevant action seems to result from the objective circumstances of them not being inside the apartment when she disappeared, from the normal behaviour that they adopted until said disappearance and afterwards, as can be amply concluded from the witness statements, from the telephone communications analysis and also from the forensics' conclusions, namely the Reports from the FSS and from the National Institute for Legal Medicine.

To this can be added that, in reality, none of the indications that led to their constitution as arguidos was later confirmed or consolidated. If not, let us see: the information concerning a previous alert of the media before the polices was not confirmed, the traces that were marked by the dogs were not ratified in laboratory, and the initial indications from the above transcribed email, better clarified at a later date, ended up being revealed as innocuous.

Even if, hypothetically, one could admit that Gerald and Kate McCann might be responsible over the child's death, it would still have to be explained how, where through, when, with what means, with the help of whom and where to they freed themselves of her body within the restricted time frame that would have been available to them to do so. Their daily routine, until the 3rd of May, had been circumscribed to the narrow borders of the 'Ocean Club' resort and to the beach that lies next to it, unknowing the surrounding terrain and, apart from the English friends that were with them on holiday there, they had no known friends or contacts in Portugal.


(Portuguese prosecutors)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 02, 2015, 11:43:54 AM
It seems evident to us and because the files contain enough elements for such, that the crime of exposure or abandonment according to article 138 of the Penal Code can be eliminated from that range:

"1 - Whoever places another person's life in danger,
a) By exposing her in a location where she is subject to a situation from which she, on her own, cannot defend herself against; or
b) Abandoning her without defence, whenever the agent had the duty to guard her, to watch over her or to assist her;"

This legal type of crime is only fulfilled with intent, and this intent has to cover the creation of danger to the victim's life, as well as the absence of a capacity to defend herself, on the victim's behalf. In the case of the files and facing the elements that were collected it is evident that none of the arguidos Gerald or Kate acted with intent. The parents could not foresee that in the resort that they chose to spend a brief holiday, they could place the life of any of their children in danger, nor was that demanded from them: it was located in a peaceful area, where most of the residents are foreign citizens of the same nationality and without any known history of this type of criminality.

The parents didn't even represent the realisation of the fact, they trusted that everything would go well, as it had gone on the previous evenings, thus not equating, nor was it demanded from them, the possibility of the occurrence of an abduction of any of the children that were in their respective apartments.

Reinforcing what was said is also the fact that despite leaving their daughter alone with her siblings in the apartment during more or less dilated moments, it is certain that in any case they checked on them. Without any pretension or compensatory effect, we must also recognise that the parents already expiate a heavy penalty - the disappearance of Madeleine - due to their lack of caution in the surveillance and protection of their children.

Concerning the other indicated crimes, they are no more than that and despite our perception that, due to its high degree of probability, the occurrence of a homicide cannot be discarded, such cannot be more than a mere supposition, due to the lack of sustaining elements in the files.

The non involvement of the arguidos parents of Madeleine in any penally relevant action seems to result from the objective circumstances of them not being inside the apartment when she disappeared, from the normal behaviour that they adopted until said disappearance and afterwards, as can be amply concluded from the witness statements, from the telephone communications analysis and also from the forensics' conclusions, namely the Reports from the FSS and from the National Institute for Legal Medicine.

To this can be added that, in reality, none of the indications that led to their constitution as arguidos was later confirmed or consolidated. If not, let us see: the information concerning a previous alert of the media before the polices was not confirmed, the traces that were marked by the dogs were not ratified in laboratory, and the initial indications from the above transcribed email, better clarified at a later date, ended up being revealed as innocuous.

Even if, hypothetically, one could admit that Gerald and Kate McCann might be responsible over the child's death, it would still have to be explained how, where through, when, with what means, with the help of whom and where to they freed themselves of her body within the restricted time frame that would have been available to them to do so. Their daily routine, until the 3rd of May, had been circumscribed to the narrow borders of the 'Ocean Club' resort and to the beach that lies next to it, unknowing the surrounding terrain and, apart from the English friends that were with them on holiday there, they had no known friends or contacts in Portugal.


(Portuguese prosecutors)

That extract is primarily to do with the potential wilful neglect charge.  As I stated previously, the crime if any is unknown so in the absence of any proof the AG was not in a position to clear anyon in respect of her disappearance.

What the prosecutors did state is that there is no proof that the McCanns were implicated in their daughter's disappearance, not that they were cleared as you claimed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 02, 2015, 11:50:28 AM
I agree. Money doesn't buy happiness or restore a reputation. Had an ordinary citizen written the same book as Amaral no award would have been made. He paid for what he said as because he was an ex policeman, no other reason.

I'm not absolutely sure that even under Portuguese Law an ordinary citizen could have written the same book an got off without getting his/her knuckles rapped for  ...
(a)  impersonating a police officer 
(b)  telling downright lies ... and I think you miss entirely that Mr Amaral's book was written because he was a high ranking police officer and as a result carried weight which a book written by a civilian would not.

Oh and as you have pointed out as an ex- police officer ... he broke the law.

As well as being unlawful, imo writing a book of that nature showed particular stupidity and arrogance ... his friend Paulo Pereira Cristóvão kept his nose clean on that occasion by billing his book on Madeleine McCann as fiction.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2015, 12:52:36 PM
The prosecutors went out of their way to dismiss abandonment from the range of possible charges, clearly indicating that they didn't even consider TheMcCannsdunsomethingdreadfulandcovereditup.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 02, 2015, 12:55:18 PM
I'm not absolutely sure that even under Portuguese Law an ordinary citizen could have written the same book an got off without getting his/her knuckles rapped for  ...
(a)  impersonating a police officer 
(b)  telling downright lies ... and I think you miss entirely that Mr Amaral's book was written because he was a high ranking police officer and as a result carried weight which a book written by a civilian would not.

Oh and as you have pointed out as an ex- police officer ... he broke the law.

As well as being unlawful, imo writing a book of that nature showed particular stupidity and arrogance ... his friend Paulo Pereira Cristóvão kept his nose clean on that occasion by billing his book on Madeleine McCann as fiction.

So you assume I meant an ordinary citizen might have written a book saying he was a police officer? To use one of your favourite sayings, don't be ridiculous. Had an ordinary citizen used the PJ files to write a book and reached the same conclusion there would have been no award. Lying was not mentioned in the judgement or the proven facts, so immaterial. Amaral says he wrote the book the PJ and investigators were criticised and no-one supported them.
Until the appeal is heard it is the opinion of one judge that Amaral broke the law. Others may take a different view.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 02, 2015, 01:06:11 PM
So you assume I meant an ordinary citizen might have written a book saying he was a police officer? To use one of your favourite sayings, don't be ridiculous. Had an ordinary citizen used the PJ files to write a book and reached the same conclusion there would have been no award. Lying was not mentioned in the judgement or the proven facts, so immaterial. Amaral says he wrote the book the PJ and investigators were criticised and no-one supported them.
Until the appeal is heard it is the opinion of one judge that Amaral broke the law. Others may take a different view.

A book written by an ordinary citizen would

(a) not have attracted a publisher

(b) it would have sold a handful of copies.

(c) It would not have created the storm that Amarals book clearly did (we can argue til the cows come home about the accuracy but it did attract attention)

And entirely because he was the police officer coordinating this case. his book and documentary sold.

Police officers simply cannot be permitted to write such books, for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 02, 2015, 01:09:08 PM
So you assume I meant an ordinary citizen might have written a book saying he was a police officer? To use one of your favourite sayings, don't be ridiculous. Had an ordinary citizen used the PJ files to write a book and reached the same conclusion there would have been no award. Lying was not mentioned in the judgement or the proven facts, so immaterial. Amaral says he wrote the book the PJ and investigators were criticised and no-one supported them.
Until the appeal is heard it is the opinion of one judge that Amaral broke the law. Others may take a different view.

                              The words you used were "the same book as Amaral".

The Judge restricted herself to points of law in making her judgement against him ... it will be interesting to see what tack his legal team will take when taking that into consideration in applying for appeal.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2015, 01:15:18 PM
                              The words you used were "the same book as Amaral".

The Judge restricted herself to points of law in making her judgement against him ... it will be interesting to see what tack his legal team will take when taking that into consideration in applying for appeal.

D'Accord!

Can someone please explain how a book written by the former lead investigator into the disappearance of a little girl that proclaims she is definitely dead, that her parents know she is dead and caused her death, disposed of and hid her body, simulated an 'abduction' and launched a fraudulent 'appeal' in their (dead!) daughter's name can have done other than harm the search for her.

I mean, how hard should anyone have to try to 'prove' such a thing?

And why should not Amaral be invited to go forth and multiply in respect of his application to have the same old lies re-hashed in front of a different judge at some far-distant time?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 02, 2015, 01:18:55 PM
A book written by an ordinary citizen would

(a) not have attracted a publisher

(b) it would have sold a handful of copies.

(c) It would not have created the storm that Amarals book clearly did (we can argue til the cows come home about the accuracy but it did attract attention)

And entirely because he was the police officer coordinating this case. his book and documentary sold.

Police officers simply cannot be permitted to write such books, for obvious reasons.


I would think it would be perverting the course of justice, JP.

There are already miscarriages of justice which is bad enough ... but I think it would be complete anarchy if senior police officers were allowed to write books such as Mr Amaral's accusing people against whom there is no evidence.





Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 02, 2015, 02:31:39 PM

I would think it would be perverting the course of justice, JP.

There are already miscarriages of justice which is bad enough ... but I think it would be complete anarchy if senior police officers were allowed to write books such as Mr Amaral's accusing people against whom there is no evidence.

I doubt that any of us here have a problem with the responsible use of the right to freedom of expression / press.

I'll only post the link to this as it's no doubt straying off topic...

http://news.sky.com/story/1494572/ex-wife-facebook-threats-conviction-quashed
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 02, 2015, 02:33:34 PM
D'Accord!

Can someone please explain how a book written by the former lead investigator into the disappearance of a little girl that proclaims she is definitely dead, that her parents know she is dead and caused her death, disposed of and hid her body, simulated an 'abduction' and launched a fraudulent 'appeal' in their (dead!) daughter's name can have done other than harm the search for her.

I mean, how hard should anyone have to try to 'prove' such a thing?

And why should not Amaral be invited to go forth and multiply in respect of his application to have the same old lies re-hashed in front of a different judge at some far-distant time?

It was found not proved that the book harmed the search and no award was made for that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 02, 2015, 02:37:02 PM
It was found not proved that the book harmed the search and no award was made for that.

If you had been in that situation, how do you think that you could you have proved that it had?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 02, 2015, 02:40:55 PM
If you had been in that situation, how do you think that you could you have proved that it had?

Why ask me?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2015, 02:57:02 PM
Did we agree the deadline for submission was 8th June?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2015, 02:58:12 PM
It was found not proved that the book harmed the search and no award was made for that.

but it was found that amaral has to pay damages...you seem to want to accept some parts of the judgement but not other parts...the bits that suit your point of view
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 02, 2015, 03:00:26 PM
Why ask me?

Honest question (whether you, me or anyone else)... how would anyone prove any damage done?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 02, 2015, 03:00:59 PM
Yes -40 calender days from the judgement, then one because it falls on a Sunday.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 02, 2015, 03:15:36 PM
but it was found that amaral has to pay damages...you seem to want to accept some parts of the judgement but not other parts...the bits that suit your point of view

Have you read the judgement and the facts proved/unproven? That's what I did. The award was made to Kate and Gerald McCann only. No award was made because harm was caused to the 'search', nor for any 'libels' affecting their children, despite what they told the newspapers.

"We want to emphasise that the action was never about money. It has always been focused on the effects of the libels on our other children and the damage that was done to the search for Madeleine," they said in a statement.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2015, 03:33:36 PM
Have you read the judgement and the facts proved/unproven? That's what I did. The award was made to Kate and Gerald McCann only. No award was made because harm was caused to the 'search', nor for any 'libels' affecting their children, despite what they told the newspapers.

"We want to emphasise that the action was never about money. It has always been focused on the effects of the libels on our other children and the damage that was done to the search for Madeleine," they said in a statement.

the search may well have been harmed by the book...but it was not proven
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2015, 03:36:20 PM
the search may well have been harmed by the book...but it was not proven

The 'search' by the mccanns you mean ?

i.e. the stroll on the beach the following morning ?

Great 'search' wasn't it ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2015, 03:42:11 PM
the search may well have been harmed by the book...but it was not proven

It baffles me that the notion of people reading, and believing, a book which proclaims that Madeleine is dead, Kate and Gerry know Madeleine is dead, indeed, caused her death and hid her body, then fabricated a fraudulent appeal in their (dead!) daughter's name, could possibly have done other than harm the search for Madeleine.

Some things are just so self-evident, they don't stand in need of proof.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 02, 2015, 03:47:36 PM
If you had been in that situation, how do you think that you could you have proved that it had?

I'm not all that sure there isn't sufficient evidence out there to substantiate the claim made that Mr Amaral's efforts did indeed have an adverse effect on Madeleine's case and the search for her ... however by purposely side stepping all of that for the time being and concentrating on two points of law, which are not anyone's opinion or infringing on the defendant's right to freedom of speech, but are in statute ... she has cleverly focused her decision on reasons which are impossible to argue.
As far as the unprecedented amount of the award goes, I think that may be an indicator of her opinion of everything else which was presented in court, I think it may be hard to get that overturned ... and it should be remembered that could backfire ... it could be increased at appeal.


With thanks to pathfinder ... just one article which tends to confirm the damage done to the search for Madeleine.


Madeleine McCann disappeared from apartment 5A at the Ocean Club, in Praia da Luz ... ... and those who committed to recover her, on the days that followed the tragedy, now point the finger at the parents, who don’t move and don't convince anyone, anymore.
     For the people, Maddie is dead and buried… by the hands of her parents.

And this crime without punishment generates a revolt that feeds off the theory of former investigator Gonçalo Amaral.

***
In Praia da Luz, opinions about what happened to little Maddie that night are divided, but the vast majority believes that she died, and holds the parents responsible. Almost nobody rises to defend the McCanns.

***
Maria Bandeirinha says that she had photos of the little girl on her shop window, but she tore everything off when she stopped believing the McCanns' innocence. "The other shop owners did the same. I'm increasingly on the side of Gonçalo Amaral.
He knows the truth, and if he says that the little girl is dead, then she is.

***
 The only difference is that the people have made their judgment... Most of the residents want to see Kate and Gerry pay for their daughter's death.

***
Only a while ago, when Gerry came here, he was jeered at on the street and if people could, they would have beaten him up." Maria Bandeirinha adds: "Sometimes, popular justice would be a good thing. It would be swifter and easier. Nobody believes a word they say anymore. They still have some support in church, but the priests also know very well what happened that night."

***
"He (Gerry McCann) didn't stay at the Ocean Club, I don't know where he slept, and he could hardly set foot on the street, because people wanted to give him a beating... Then he had some ridiculous letters distributed, which were all over the place, shredded, on the next day", another resident of Luz told us, showing us a sample of the letter (Madeleine posters).

***
Marta Vaz de Sousa, the head of Valentim de Carvalho Multimédia, took the documentary 'Maddie – The Truth of the Lie', that TVI broadcast, to MIP, in Cannes, and is preparing its sales. "There are more than 15 countries interested in it, business deals that could be closed within a week."
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6044.msg244437#msg244437


Seems to be pretty much cut and dried according to that article and many others like it that Mr Amaral's book had a detrimental impact on the search for Madeleine McCann ... particularly where it mattered most ... Portugal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 02, 2015, 03:48:35 PM
Have you read the judgement and the facts proved/unproven? That's what I did. The award was made to Kate and Gerald McCann only. No award was made because harm was caused to the 'search', nor for any 'libels' affecting their children, despite what they told the newspapers.

"We want to emphasise that the action was never about money. It has always been focused on the effects of the libels on our other children and the damage that was done to the search for Madeleine," they said in a statement.

Again.

If a former police officer had insisted in the media - for years on end - that you had committed serious crimes, what would you do to prove direct damage?

Even though the issue is about a missing, possibly living child, let's change the focus to a different situation.

Let's say that this officer had insisted in all the media that you had encouraged an elderly relative / OH / secret lover to commit suicide, or that you had sexually harrassed a neighbour / former work colleague for years prior to their disappearance... How would you react and what would you do?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 02, 2015, 04:15:54 PM
It baffles me that the notion of people reading, and believing, a book which proclaims that Madeleine is dead, Kate and Gerry know Madeleine is dead, indeed, caused her death and hid her body, then fabricated a fraudulent appeal in their (dead!) daughter's name, could possibly have done other than harm the search for Madeleine.

Some things are just so self-evident, they don't stand in need of proof.


There appears to be a flexible concept in PT law referring to the "rules of common experience". Normally, it is meant in the sense that you don't have to formally establish that the sun normally rises after the moon..., or that Wednesday comes a day after Tuesday.

However...

For some reason, this was invoked in the Cipriano case when a single neighbour had allegedly seen Joana walking back towards her home from the shop and therefore, in the view of the learned judges, "common experience" dictated that as children generally get back home, it was therefore a proven fact that Joana had indeed arrived back home as well. There was nothing to prove that this was the case.




The matter that was considered to be proved in items aa), ab), ac), ad), ae), af), ag), ah) ai), aj) al), am), an), ap), aah), aai), aaj) and aam) was based on the deposition of witnesses AA3, CC3, CC4, DD, CC8, II, DD1 , MM and BB1, on the reconstitution files and on the search and apprehension files, as well as on the subsequent forensic exam, all interpreted under the light of the rules of experience.

(...)
aa) minor CC returned home from “Pastelaria…”, where she had bought the aforementioned food products;

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 02, 2015, 05:03:50 PM
The issue appears to have been the difficulty in proving DIRECT evidence of the consequences of his book, the docu drama and the one article submitted as an example.

At the moment, from what I can gather of PT law, if others take direct action (even based on one person's spoutings), then it is still those who took direct action who should be procecuted.

Hopefully a media personality inciting genocide might be tackled under national security laws...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2015, 05:23:28 PM
So does Ms Baulch have a plan 'B' for what to do with all that money if Amaral is denied leave to appeal?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 02, 2015, 05:28:51 PM
Perhaps you need to write and ask her - I doubt anyone on here knows the answer.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2015, 05:49:27 PM
So Amaral is sailing it fairly close to the wind in making his application.

He has about 6 days left ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 02, 2015, 05:49:32 PM
So does Ms Baulch have a plan 'B' for what to do with all that money if Amaral is denied leave to appeal?

Do Gofund me take their cut before or after the donations go into the bank account?  Must be before from each donation, I would imagine.  Once it is in the bank account only the owner of the account would be the able to decide on what is to be done with it.
If the stated aim of the funding cannot be achieved ... I would imagine the person whose name is on the account owns it.
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 02, 2015, 05:59:36 PM
For those who didn't see it, I posted information from the PJGA website showing that the money from gofundme has already been passed to the PJGA legal fund bank account (well, that's how I understood it)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 02, 2015, 06:04:48 PM
http://www.gofundme.com/questions/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 02, 2015, 06:09:50 PM
http://www.gofundme.com/questions/


Thank you, Alice


Does it cost anything?

While it's free to create and share your online fundraising campaign, GoFundMe will deduct a 5% fee from each donation that you receive.

Since our fee is deducted automatically, you'll never need to worry about being billed or owing us any money.

A small processing fee of about 3% will also be deducted from each donation.

Please see Pricing & Fees for more info.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 02, 2015, 06:28:44 PM
Here are pinks to today's articles about this successful fundraising in Express Mail Mirror Telegraph Times Independent and Guardian:-

ETA Sorry, I can't find any

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on June 02, 2015, 06:32:04 PM

Thank you, Alice


Does it cost anything?

While it's free to create and share your online fundraising campaign, GoFundMe will deduct a 5% fee from each donation that you receive.

Since our fee is deducted automatically, you'll never need to worry about being billed or owing us any money.

A small processing fee of about 3% will also be deducted from each donation.

Please see Pricing & Fees for more info.

Seems these fundraising vehicles charge much the same :

https://help.justgiving.com/hc/en-us/articles/203067602-Crowdfunding-Fees
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 02, 2015, 06:51:50 PM
Here are pinks to today's articles about this successful fundraising in Express Mail Mirror Telegraph Times Independent and Guardian:-

ETA Sorry, I can't find any
You would have to be very deluded to think the Telegraph, the Times, the Independent and the Guardian would show the slightest interest in Ammy's Fund.  The only possible interest those papers might have in this stupendous money-raising exercise is if it is revealed that members of the Met actually did donate a grand to help the man who was legally adjudged to have caused damage to the parents of the missing child their force is currently trying to find.  Personally I think it's highly unlikely to be true and probably not worth the journalistic effort involved in trying to establish the facts one way or the other. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 02, 2015, 07:28:20 PM
This has all gotten rather silly.  So please stop now.  Otherwise I might get really cross.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 02, 2015, 07:51:20 PM
You would have to be very deluded to think the Telegraph, the Times, the Independent and the Guardian would show the slightest interest in Ammy's Fund.  The only possible interest those papers might have in this stupendous money-raising exercise is if it is revealed that members of the Met actually did donate a grand to help the man who was legally adjudged to have caused damage to the parents of the missing child their force is currently trying to find.  Personally I think it's highly unlikely to be true and probably not worth the journalistic effort involved in trying to establish the facts one way or the other.
I imagine the journalists do want to write honestly about the case including how this successful fundraising shows the support of thousands of the british public, but at present only pink puff pastries are allowed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 02, 2015, 07:52:59 PM

Any more for anymore to be deleted?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 02, 2015, 08:06:12 PM
I imagine the journalists do want to write honestly about the case including how this successful fundraising shows the support of thousands of the british public, but at present only pink puff pastries are allowed.
Where are you getting "thousands of the British Public" from?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 02, 2015, 08:39:32 PM
Where are you getting "thousands of the British Public" from?
1606 donations, take away foreigners and repeat contributions. Oh yes and for one big donation count the large number of individuals who put money in the helmet. About 1000 brits total IMO. And special thanks to the generous headline writer at the Star for directly generating about £300 of donations.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 02, 2015, 08:45:44 PM
1606 donations, take away foreigners and repeat contributions. Oh yes and for one big donation count the large number of individuals who put money in the helmet. About 1000 brits total IMO. And special thanks to the generous headline writer at the Star for directly generating about £300 of donations.
1000 does not equal thousands, thank you for clarifying.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 02, 2015, 09:01:57 PM
Decent response though for just a month, don't you think?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2015, 09:06:59 PM
Decent response though for just a month, don't you think?

As there's one born every minute it's quite a poor response
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 02, 2015, 09:07:55 PM
1000 does not equal thousands, thank you for clarifying.
Apologies not thousands of brits, yet.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2015, 09:10:35 PM
Many of the donations are from the deluded who think they are somehow helping to get Justice for Maddie.....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 02, 2015, 09:25:05 PM
As there's one born every minute it's quite a poor response
14 every minute.
IMO the main thing is that the remarkably successful fund will ensure that the appeal is not lost through lack of a good lawyer.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2015, 09:25:57 PM
14 every minute.
IMO the main thing is that the remarkably successful fund will ensure that the appeal is not lost through lack of a good lawyer.

I would agree with you there
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 02, 2015, 09:37:32 PM
Alice 29-04-2015
At the present donation rate of £67 per hour and allowing a bit of diversity he'll have it in about 6 weeks

Davel 29-04-2015
you are making rather a ridiculous assumption that the rate will continue at a similar level

Alf 29-04-2015
We shall review the total in 6 weeks and see if you're right.

What a surprise for everyone.
 8(*(
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 02, 2015, 09:39:19 PM

I think Amaral has already gone through most of the good lawyers in Portugal.  Or at least most of those who would be fool enough to represent him.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 02, 2015, 09:41:05 PM
Has the wording on what the defence fund is to be used for been altered?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 02, 2015, 09:44:02 PM
I think Amaral has already gone through most of the good lawyers in Portugal.  Or at least most of those who would be fool enough to represent him.

Well they know he has access to £25k at least which is about all they will be interested in. If that's enough someone will step up to the oche.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 02, 2015, 09:47:33 PM
Well they know he has access to £25k at least which is about all they will be interested in. If that's enough someone will step up to the oche.

Until he gets the sack, along with all of the rest.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 02, 2015, 10:00:08 PM
1606 donations, take away foreigners and repeat contributions. Oh yes and for one big donation count the large number of individuals who put money in the helmet. About 1000 brits total IMO. And special thanks to the generous headline writer at the Star for directly generating about £300 of donations.

There really is one born every minute!  Do you actually believe that a group of serving MET police officers made a contribution of £1000 to Amaral?

A clue - because someone puts something in a comment section does not necessarily make it true  8(0(*


 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 02, 2015, 10:17:28 PM
There really is one born every minute!  Do you actually believe that a group of serving MET police officers made a contribution of £1000 to Amaral?

A clue - because someone puts something in a comment section does not necessarily make it true  8(0(*

I guess believing MPS means Metropolitan Police Service rather than Metres Per Second might lead to confusion.
In my day the comment was: "well it says Bovril on the back of a Routemaster". Then on the other hand never rule out Cocker's Law.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: lordpookles on June 02, 2015, 10:28:53 PM
I guess believing MPS means Metropolitan Police Service rather than Metres Per Second might lead to confusion.
In my day the comment was: "well it says Bovril on the back of a Routemaster". Then on the other hand never rule out Cocker's Law.

Wots cockers law? I've heard you speak of it before...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 02, 2015, 11:19:41 PM
Wots cockers law? I've heard you speak of it before...

AKA "Murphy's Law":
"Anything that can go wrong will go wrong" or a variant: "If it is remotely possible for something to happen it probably will happen".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 03, 2015, 12:08:38 AM
AKA "Murphy's Law":
"Anything that can go wrong will go wrong" or a variant: "If it is remotely possible for something to happen it probably will happen".

Let's put it this way ... the Met are involved in an active investigation which requires the cooperation of another country's police force, particularly as that country retains the lead authority in the case of a missing child.

Officers from the Met are
(a)  showing preference in a judgement handed down by that country's Courts
(b)  the pursuers in that case happen to be the parents of the missing child subject to active investigation by the Met

So at a stroke there is a risk of alienating the establishment of a country whose good will is pivotal to the ongoing case.
There is a risk of causing anxiety, not only to the parents of the child involved in the active Met case, but also to those concerned the police should be seen to be impartial.

All in my opinion of course ... and anyway I have as much faith in the existence of these as I have in the existence of Ulrich Merz.

It's all very much like crisis time in Ireland when instead of the Madonnas starting to spin ... we have detectives.

There is nothing delaying the request for an appeal being submitted now ... and those digging into their pockets should be aware that if allowed it will be an expensive business as long as they are prepared to dig deep ... but while doing so they should remember that Mr Amaral does not qualify for financial support to proceed his cases for the simple reason his income is too great.
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 03, 2015, 01:21:39 AM
There really is one born every minute!  Do you actually believe that a group of serving MET police officers made a contribution of £1000 to Amaral?

A clue - because someone puts something in a comment section does not necessarily make it true  8(0(*
Agreed the interpretation of initials MPS may be over-imaginative but the point is a group of people (possibly connected with law enforcement) together made a donation of £1000 pounds. And that was matched by another £1000 from an individual.
BTW has anyone clarified whether the costs of the many lawyers of the opposing side are being paid from their fund or not? Does anyone know?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 03, 2015, 06:17:14 AM
Alice 29-04-2015
At the present donation rate of £67 per hour and allowing a bit of diversity he'll have it in about 6 weeks

Davel 29-04-2015
you are making rather a ridiculous assumption that the rate will continue at a similar level

Alf 29-04-2015
We shall review the total in 6 weeks and see if you're right.

What a surprise for everyone.
 8(*(

Quelle surprise!!!  Davel got it wrong again  @)(++(*

Well predicted Alice....  go to the top of the class!!!   8((()*/ 8@??)(
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 03, 2015, 06:27:11 AM
Update from Leanne Baulch as fund reaches £26,356 in a month!!


When I started the GoFundMe, so many people said they thought I was being over-ambitious with the target, even I had doubts that we would get this far. Not because I doubted Gonçalo's support, but because I didn't think people would know about the site to donate in the first place. I wanted a place for us to be able show our support, a place for us all to come together to stand by what is right, and a place for those that don't have PayPal to donate, and that's exactly what it has been, and hopefully, with your support, will continue to be.

 What we have achieved together is truly amazing, but it's not over yet. We still need to keep supporting Gonçalo, whether that is by donating, sharing the link to the fund, or with your kind messages, it all counts, and it's extremely important.

 Thank you for donating, thank you for sharing, and thank you for supporting! You are all fantastic people, standing up for what is right. Gonçalo needed our support, and it's evident on here that he has so much! It's not just about the donations, the messages of support are priceless.

www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 03, 2015, 06:35:05 AM
Let's put it this way ... the Met are involved in an active investigation which requires the cooperation of another country's police force, particularly as that country retains the lead authority in the case of a missing child.

Officers from the Met are
(a)  showing preference in a judgement handed down by that country's Courts
(b)  the pursuers in that case happen to be the parents of the missing child subject to active investigation by the Met

So at a stroke there is a risk of alienating the establishment of a country whose good will is pivotal to the ongoing case.
There is a risk of causing anxiety, not only to the parents of the child involved in the active Met case, but also to those concerned the police should be seen to be impartial.

All in my opinion of course ... and anyway I have as much faith in the existence of these as I have in the existence of Ulrich Merz.

It's all very much like crisis time in Ireland when instead of the Madonnas starting to spin ... we have detectives.

There is nothing delaying the request for an appeal being submitted now ... and those digging into their pockets should be aware that if allowed it will be an expensive business as long as they are prepared to dig deep ... but while doing so they should remember that Mr Amaral does not qualify for financial support to proceed his cases for the simple reason his income is too great.

A lot of police officers from both the Met and Leicestershire Police are quietly very unhappy at the way this investigation has developed and who would blame them.

To summarize

A three-year-old English/Irish girl goes missing in Portugal and despite the police from several countries being involved in the search the parents set about a multi million pound private investigation which ended up as one almighty charade. The Portuguese lead detective rightly follows every lead and ends up investigating the parents only to be removed from the case, is effectively forced to resign, writes a book about his experiences in the case and reveals his theory and is sued by the parents for a million quid.  With me so far?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 03, 2015, 06:42:41 AM
A lot of police officers from both the Met and Leicestershire Police are quietly very unhappy at the way this investigation has developed and who would blame them.

Is this your opinion, Angelo?

Or are you stating this as a fact?  In which case the rules of this forum suggest that you should provide some sort of cite. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 03, 2015, 06:45:37 AM
Is this your opinion, Angelo?

Or are you stating this as a fact?  In which case the rules of this forum suggest that you should provide some sort of cite.

I'm afraid the Official Secrets Act prevents them speaking out so a cite is not possible.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 03, 2015, 07:09:16 AM
I'm afraid the Official Secrets Act prevents them speaking out so a cite is not possible.

Really?  Under which section of the 89 act does expressing an opinion come?

Perhaps you need to refer to the Shayler case, and in particular section 21 of Binghams judgement.

  http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKHL/2002/11.html

You really will need to do better than that Angelo.




Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 03, 2015, 07:23:50 AM
A lot of police officers from both the Met and Leicestershire Police are quietly very unhappy at the way this investigation has developed and who would blame them.

To summarize

A three-year-old English/Irish girl goes missing in Portugal and despite the police from several countries being involved in the search the parents set about a multi million pound private investigation which ended up as one almighty charade. The Portuguese lead detective rightly follows every lead and ends up investigating the parents only to be removed from the case, is effectively forced to resign, writes a book about his experiences in the case and reveals his theory and is sued by the parents for a million quid.  With me so far?


Right on the nail.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 03, 2015, 08:07:47 AM
I'm afraid the Official Secrets Act prevents them speaking out so a cite is not possible.

As the official secrets act 89 does apply, any chance of a cite?  Or do forum rules not apply to you?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 03, 2015, 08:15:32 AM
I'm afraid the Official Secrets Act prevents them speaking out so a cite is not possible.
If that is case then how do YOU know that a lot of police officers are very unhappy about the way the investigation has developed? Quantify "a lot".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 03, 2015, 08:16:53 AM
If that is case then how do YOU know that a lot of police officers are very unhappy about the way the investigation has developed? Quantify "a lot".

Well that works both ways.
 
Can you cite the number of police officers who believe the mccanns  story ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 03, 2015, 08:19:46 AM
Well that works both ways.
 
Can you cite the number of police officers who believe the mccanns  story ?
No, but then I'm not the one making any claims about what hundreds of members of two police forces privately believe.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 03, 2015, 08:38:45 AM
Update from Leanne Baulch as fund reaches £26,356 in a month!!


When I started the GoFundMe, so many people said they thought I was being over-ambitious with the target, even I had doubts that we would get this far. Not because I doubted Gonçalo's support, but because I didn't think people would know about the site to donate in the first place. I wanted a place for us to be able show our support, a place for us all to come together to stand by what is right, and a place for those that don't have PayPal to donate, and that's exactly what it has been, and hopefully, with your support, will continue to be.

 What we have achieved together is truly amazing, but it's not over yet. We still need to keep supporting Gonçalo, whether that is by donating, sharing the link to the fund, or with your kind messages, it all counts, and it's extremely important.

 Thank you for donating, thank you for sharing, and thank you for supporting! You are all fantastic people, standing up for what is right. Gonçalo needed our support, and it's evident on here that he has so much! It's not just about the donations, the messages of support are priceless.

www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA


I absolutely agree that the messages of support are "priceless" ... I thoroughly recommend a visit to Pamalam's site where someone has taken the trouble to transfer them to be read in a trouble free manner.

There is no doubt in my mind these should be recorded for posterity.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 03, 2015, 08:42:24 AM

I absolutely agree that the messages of support are "priceless" ... I thoroughly recommend a visit to Pamalam's site where someone has taken the trouble to transfer them to be read in a trouble free manner.

There is no doubt in my mind these should be recorded for posterity.
I heard that fewer than 100 individuals made more than 300 of the donations, and that's only the ones who used the same names for their multiple donations.  It demonstrates a certain level of fanaticism amongst the die-hard "sceptic" community.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 03, 2015, 08:57:54 AM
Although The Star referred to 'sick trolls' supporting Amaral's Fund it didn't quote any of the messages left with the donations. Possibly because they were clearly not written by 'trolls' at all, but by ordinary people. These people either don't believe the McCanns version of events or are simply supporting an 'underdog', which is a very British thing to do.
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 03, 2015, 09:01:03 AM
Although The Star referred to 'sick trolls' supporting Amaral's Fund it didn't quote any of the messages left with the donations. Possibly because they were clearly not written by 'trolls' at all, but by ordinary people. These people either don't believe the McCanns version of events or are simply supporting an 'underdog', which is a very British thing to do.
The Star could have chosen from any number of comments to support its claim of "sick trolls" if it had been paying close enough attention.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on June 03, 2015, 09:13:21 AM
A lot of police officers from both the Met and Leicestershire Police are quietly very unhappy at the way this investigation has developed and who would blame them.

To summarize

A three-year-old English/Irish girl goes missing in Portugal and despite the police from several countries being involved in the search the parents set about a multi million pound private investigation which ended up as one almighty charade. The Portuguese lead detective rightly follows every lead and ends up investigating the parents only to be removed from the case, is effectively forced to resign, writes a book about his experiences in the case and reveals his theory and is sued by the parents for a million quid.  With me so far?


Amaral got taken off the case for slagging off the British police.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 03, 2015, 09:19:19 AM
The Star could have chosen from any number of comments to support its claim of "sick trolls" if it had been paying close enough attention.

For example?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 03, 2015, 09:26:32 AM

Topic Please.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 03, 2015, 09:33:38 AM
For example?
One example would be the person who left a donation in the name of Isabel Duarte.  Another would be the person who signed themselves MPS and claimed that "a large number" of police officers had had a whip round and raised £1,000.  Plenty more examples would be those (often anonymous donors) with a PREFERENCE for leaving messages propagating all the usual MYTHS and LIES associated with this case and DOING so with a plethora of ANGRY capital letters and EXCLAMATION MARKS!!!! 

I guess it depends though on your definition of "sick troll".  I think there is something quite sick about the concerted and determined effort to cause the McCanns as much hurt as possible, which - let's be honest - is what this fund raising campaign is really all about.  You can dress it up as a "crusade for justice" by lovely decent people as much as you like, but in my opinion there is something both sick and trollish about supporting a man legally adjudged to have caused damage to the parents of a missing child.  But then there have been all sorts of movements and campaigns that have attracted wide support that I have struggled to understand - at one point (for example) the BNP had close to 12,000 fully paid up members for example, and they used to have a huge upsurge of donations every time the MSM reported another Nick Griffin racist remark, arrest or thuggish debacle - I guess throwing your support behind causes and individuals like this is a way of snubbing your nose at the establishment, all very British I'm sure! 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 03, 2015, 09:35:58 AM
One example would be the person who left a donation in the name of Isabel Duarte.  Another would be the person who signed themselves MPS and claimed that "a large number" of police officers had had a whip round and raised £1,000.  Plenty more examples would be those (often anonymous donors) with a PREFERENCE for leaving messages propagating all the usual MYTHS and LIES associated with this case and DOING so with a plethora of ANGRY capital letters and EXCLAMATION MARKS!!!! 

I guess it depends though on your definition of "sick troll".  I think there is something quite sick about the concerted and determined effort to cause the McCanns as much hurt as possible, which - let's be honest - is what this fund raising campaign is really all about.  You can dress it up as a "crusade for justice" by lovely decent people as much as you like, but in my opinion there is something both sick and trollish about supporting a man legally adjudged to have caused damage to the parents of a missing child.  But then there have been all sorts of movements and campaigns that have attracted wide support that I have struggled to understand - at one point (for example) the BNP had close to 12,000 fully paid up members for example, and they used to have a huge upsurge of donations every time the MSM reported another Nick Griffin racist remark, arrest or thuggish debacle - I guess throwing your support behind causes and individuals like this is a way of snubbing your nose at the establishment, all very British I'm sure!

Yet another tirade in support of the mccanns.

and bringing in the BNP  into it.

How desperate.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carew on June 03, 2015, 09:51:56 AM
Could be that a lot of popcorn is being consumed whilst every donation is being scrutinised and sweated over by some very obsessive persons...........( comfort eating, perhaps?)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: carlymichelle on June 03, 2015, 09:52:18 AM
Yet another tirade in support of the mccanns.

and bringing in the BNP  into it.

How desperate.

mcann supporters are just angry because more people support GA then they  do kate mcann you can tell it infuritates them!!!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 03, 2015, 09:54:23 AM
mcann supporters are just angry because more people support GA then they  do kate mcann you can tell it infuritates them!!!

Too right Carlymichelle.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 03, 2015, 09:59:58 AM
mcann supporters are just angry because more people support GA then they  do kate mcann you can tell it infuritates them!!!
@)(++(* Yes I'm really infuritated!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 03, 2015, 10:00:54 AM
@)(++(* Yes I'm really infuritated!

Absolutely incandescent  *&*%£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 03, 2015, 10:10:36 AM
One example would be the person who left a donation in the name of Isabel Duarte.  Another would be the person who signed themselves MPS and claimed that "a large number" of police officers had had a whip round and raised £1,000.  Plenty more examples would be those (often anonymous donors) with a PREFERENCE for leaving messages propagating all the usual MYTHS and LIES associated with this case and DOING so with a plethora of ANGRY capital letters and EXCLAMATION MARKS!!!! 

I guess it depends though on your definition of "sick troll".  I think there is something quite sick about the concerted and determined effort to cause the McCanns as much hurt as possible, which - let's be honest - is what this fund raising campaign is really all about.  You can dress it up as a "crusade for justice" by lovely decent people as much as you like, but in my opinion there is something both sick and trollish about supporting a man legally adjudged to have caused damage to the parents of a missing child.  But then there have been all sorts of movements and campaigns that have attracted wide support that I have struggled to understand - at one point (for example) the BNP had close to 12,000 fully paid up members for example, and they used to have a huge upsurge of donations every time the MSM reported another Nick Griffin racist remark, arrest or thuggish debacle - I guess throwing your support behind causes and individuals like this is a way of snubbing your nose at the establishment, all very British I'm sure!

Which is why The Star referred to 'people, police officers and trolls'. Some people have posted inappropriate comments. The vast majority haven't. The good thing, in my opinion, is that the hysteria about 'trolls' is being seen for what it always was; a ploy to discredit those who have had doubts about the McCann's story.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 03, 2015, 10:17:38 AM
On a more serious note, I do not think I would describe myself as a "McCann supporter" as described by some members of this forum.  I would however describe myself as a passionate supporter of justice. 

And this case is intriguing because of the small but very vocal community who are convinced that the McCanns are guilty (but seem to be rather unclear as to what they are guilty of) based on some very ropey "evidence".

On the present showing I see them as grieving parents. And on the theme of his thread made the subject of an extraordinary and totally unjustifiable campaign by an ex policeman who thought he could drive a coach and horses through both law and accepted practice.  Quite apart from the press in 2007 and 2008.

If actual evidence does emerge that the McCanns were involved in Madeleines disappearance, then they should feel the full force of the law and I will fully support that.  But to date there is no such evidence of any kind.   
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 03, 2015, 10:23:22 AM
@)(++(* Yes I'm really infuritated!


You will be if Amaral wins  subsequent appeals.  8((()*/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on June 03, 2015, 10:24:12 AM
On a more serious note, I do not think I would describe myself as a "McCann supporter" as described by some members of this forum.  I would however describe myself as a passionate supporter of justice. 

And this case is intriguing because of the small but very vocal community who are convinced that the McCanns are guilty (but seem to be rather unclear as to what they are guilty of) based on some very ropey "evidence".

On the present showing I see them as grieving parents. And on the theme of his thread made the subject of an extraordinary and totally unjustifiable campaign by an ex policeman who thought he could drive a coach and horses through both law and accepted practice.  Quite apart from the press in 2007 and 2008.

If actual evidence does emerge that the McCanns were involved in Madeleines disappearance, then they should feel the full force of the law and I will fully support that.  But to date there is no such evidence of any kind.

My sentiments entirely JP.   Your post says it all -  IMO.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 03, 2015, 10:29:10 AM
On a more serious note, I do not think I would describe myself as a "McCann supporter" as described by some members of this forum.  I would however describe myself as a passionate supporter of justice. 

And this case is intriguing because of the small but very vocal community who are convinced that the McCanns are guilty (but seem to be rather unclear as to what they are guilty of) based on some very ropey "evidence".

On the present showing I see them as grieving parents. And on the theme of his thread made the subject of an extraordinary and totally unjustifiable campaign by an ex policeman who thought he could drive a coach and horses through both law and accepted practice.  Quite apart from the press in 2007 and 2008.

If actual evidence does emerge that the McCanns were involved in Madeleines disappearance, then they should feel the full force of the law and I will fully support that.  But to date there is no such evidence of any kind.
I'd go along with every word of that, despite the fact that I have 'McCann Worshipper' below my forum name.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 03, 2015, 10:36:10 AM
Which is why The Star referred to 'people, police officers and trolls'. Some people have posted inappropriate comments. The vast majority haven't. The good thing, in my opinion, is that the hysteria about 'trolls' is being seen for what it always was; a ploy to discredit those who have had doubts about the McCann's story.
Seen by who?  No one really gives much thought to or cares about your public image apart from you*, you know.

(you being the collective term for regular online McCann critics / sceptics / doubters)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 03, 2015, 11:00:51 AM
Seen by who?  No one really gives much thought to or cares about your public image apart from you*, you know.

(you being the collective term for regular online McCann critics / sceptics / doubters)

I have noticed that more supporters fit the definition than those who have doubts;

troll
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 03, 2015, 11:05:09 AM
I have noticed that more supporters fit the definition than those who have doubts;

troll
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll
Is this a joke?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 03, 2015, 11:06:05 AM
On a more serious note, I do not think I would describe myself as a "McCann supporter" as described by some members of this forum.  I would however describe myself as a passionate supporter of justice. 

And this case is intriguing because of the small but very vocal community who are convinced that the McCanns are guilty (but seem to be rather unclear as to what they are guilty of) based on some very ropey "evidence".

On the present showing I see them as grieving parents. And on the theme of his thread made the subject of an extraordinary and totally unjustifiable campaign by an ex policeman who thought he could drive a coach and horses through both law and accepted practice.  Quite apart from the press in 2007 and 2008.

If actual evidence does emerge that the McCanns were involved in Madeleines disappearance, then they should feel the full force of the law and I will fully support that.  But to date there is no such evidence of any kind.

You have put my sentiments exactly into words, JP.

I am anxious that whoever is responsible for Madeleine McCann's disappearance is found and brought to Justice based solely on evidence.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on June 03, 2015, 12:47:23 PM
Snip

I am anxious that whoever is responsible for Madeleine McCann's disappearance is found and brought to Justice based solely on evidence.

Ditto
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 03, 2015, 12:49:18 PM
Ditto

                                             I believe in due process ... do you?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 03, 2015, 01:02:44 PM
Let's put it this way ... the Met are involved in an active investigation which requires the cooperation of another country's police force, particularly as that country retains the lead authority in the case of a missing child.

Officers from the Met are
(a)  showing preference in a judgement handed down by that country's Courts
(b)  the pursuers in that case happen to be the parents of the missing child subject to active investigation by the Met

So at a stroke there is a risk of alienating the establishment of a country whose good will is pivotal to the ongoing case.
There is a risk of causing anxiety, not only to the parents of the child involved in the active Met case, but also to those concerned the police should be seen to be impartial.

All in my opinion of course ... and anyway I have as much faith in the existence of these as I have in the existence of Ulrich Merz.

It's all very much like crisis time in Ireland when instead of the Madonnas starting to spin ... we have detectives.

There is nothing delaying the request for an appeal being submitted now ... and those digging into their pockets should be aware that if allowed it will be an expensive business as long as they are prepared to dig deep ... but while doing so they should remember that Mr Amaral does not qualify for financial support to proceed his cases for the simple reason his income is too great.
How does this materially affect Cocker's Law?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 03, 2015, 01:07:39 PM
How does this materially affect Cocker's Law?

You tell me exactly in which way you think it does ... or tell me exactly in which way you think it does not ... maybe even adding a cite to your definition of "Cocker's Law" ... then we can discuss.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on June 03, 2015, 05:13:37 PM
                                             I believe in due process ... do you?

Yes
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on June 03, 2015, 06:15:47 PM
mcann supporters are just angry because more people support GA then they  do kate mcann you can tell it infuritates them!!!

I for one am not angry at all,   the more money Amaral gets the more likely he is to award the McCann's the full amount of damages.

As to your quite childish remark about more people supporting GA than Kate McCann have you noticed that Kate McCann is NOT raising money for herself,    she is raising money for a charity.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 03, 2015, 10:20:52 PM
Donations will really rocket when the major papers mention it, which will be soon, IMO.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 03, 2015, 10:29:41 PM
(snip) ... Another would be the person who signed themselves MPS ... (snip)
It is a big donation, a thousand pounds, so whoever made it, they certainly strongly support Mr Amaral.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 03, 2015, 10:54:57 PM
It is a big donation, a thousand pounds, so whoever made it, they certainly strongly support Mr Amaral.
I have a strong suspicion that the person who made it also made a similar sized donation earlier, and yes, their fanatical support of Amaral appears to have no price limit.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 03, 2015, 11:00:10 PM
If money has been withdrawn from this fund into another account for Amaral then how is anyone to know whether or not that money is simply being re-circulated into the fund to make it appear like big donations are still pouring in?  If they play it right they could push the total up to a hundred thou easy peasy! *&*%£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 03, 2015, 11:25:05 PM
If money has been withdrawn from this fund into another account for Amaral then how is anyone to know whether or not that money is simply being re-circulated into the fund to make it appear like big donations are still pouring in?  If they play it right they could push the total up to a hundred thou easy peasy! *&*%£
A hundred thousand, that would be interesting.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 03, 2015, 11:30:36 PM
So amaral has raised 25K on the back of a campaign claiming Justice For Madeleine.....The judge has already delivered Justice to Madeleine and amaral is trying to get it thrown out.....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Admin on June 04, 2015, 12:13:47 AM
Madeleine McCann ‘Trolls’ Pay For Amaral Court Appeal

2 JUNE 2015

(http://cdn.inquisitr.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/maddie-665x385.jpg)

The search for Madeleine McCann remains fruitless, but numerous members of the public — across the world — are publicly showing support for the former detective who notoriously accused her parents of covering up her death. Goncalo Amaral may have lost in court against the missing child’s parents, but more than 1,500 people have come forward to show support for the former cop by paying for his court appeal en masse. The Daily Star has referred to these charitable donors as “sick trolls,” but they’ve nonetheless raised more than the £25,000 needed for his court fees. That means Goncalo Amaral can continue the fight for his right to publish evidence and theories against Kate and Gerry McCann.

Among the 1,559 donors who contributed to the fund, it’s believed that officers with the Metropolitan Police Service also donated a large amount of money. Those presumed officers claimed that they were “outraged at the way in which a senior investigating officer has been treated” in relation to the Madeleine McCann case. The donation from the MPS may not have been what pushed the funds to the intended goal, but it certainly did help.

The fund was started by a 22-year-old Birmingham woman after news broke that Goncalo Amaral had been ordered to pay out hundreds of thousands of dollars to Kate and Gerry McCann. CBS News CrimeSider reports that the McCanns won a libel payout after a long battle pertaining to Amaral’s published book Truth of the Lie, which pointed out all of the investigative evidence against the parents while theorizing and speculating that they may have accidentally killed Madeleine due to negligence before covering up her death. It only took about a month before donations from all over the world funded the entirety of Amaral’s appeal.

Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/2137703/madeleine-mccann-trolls-pay-for-amaral-court-appeal/#0OYhawFyDe0uxdwc.99
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 04, 2015, 01:57:06 AM
So amaral has raised 25K on the back of a campaign claiming Justice For Madeleine.....The judge has already delivered Justice to Madeleine and amaral is trying to get it thrown out.....
Since your post it's gone up to 26.65K
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 04, 2015, 08:13:26 AM
So Is Gonc planning to file his appeal today, tomorrow or Monday?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 04, 2015, 08:18:04 AM
So amaral has raised 25K on the back of a campaign claiming Justice For Madeleine.....The judge has already delivered Justice to Madeleine and amaral is trying to get it thrown out.....
No award was made for Madeleine in the judgement, just for her parents.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 04, 2015, 08:21:32 AM
No award was made for Madeleine in the judgement, just for her parents.

The book claiming maddie is dead has been banned...since there is no proof Maddie is dead then to claim she is dead is an insult to her. Amaral's appeal has nothing to do with justice for Maddie...to claim it is ...is a disgrace
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 04, 2015, 08:34:55 AM
The book claiming maddie is dead has been banned...since there is no proof Maddie is dead then to claim she is dead is an insult to her. Amaral's appeal has nothing to do with justice for Maddie...to claim it is ...is a disgrace

But no award for any damage caused to Madeleine by the book.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 04, 2015, 08:42:51 AM
But no award for any damage caused to Madeleine by the book.
wriggle..wriggle...wriggle some more
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 04, 2015, 08:47:27 AM
wriggle..wriggle...wriggle some more

Wait for the appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 08:51:47 AM
Since your post it's gone up to 26.65K

Pegasus or anyone on this thread, a question. 

Do you believe that a lawyer defending a client must as a prerequisite approve of or share their clients views because otherwise they would turn down the case?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 04, 2015, 08:56:39 AM
Pegasus or anyone on this thread, a question. 

Do you believe that a lawyer defending a client must as a prerequisite approve of or share their clients views because otherwise they would turn down the case?

Quite clearly no.

Clearly, lawyers will know their client is guilty in some cases.

How they would live with themselves, if  their client was declared not guilty in a trial, and then committed further heinous crimes is another matter entirely.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 04, 2015, 09:15:22 AM
What is abhorrent is gonc supporters claiming the appeal is about justice for Maddie...a total lie
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 04, 2015, 09:18:40 AM
Pegasus or anyone on this thread, a question. 

Do you believe that a lawyer defending a client must as a prerequisite approve of or share their clients views because otherwise they would turn down the case?

Is it practical for lawyers to limit themselves only to cases where they believe in the client? Doubtful, particularly if they do legal aid cases. There will be a wide variety of cases I would think, ranging from those where the lawyer thinks the client is innocent to those where he knows the client is guilty. Those are personal opinions though. In the real world a lawyer works for money, not justice. To earn his money he must put up a defense. In the last analysis the court decides on justice, not the lawyer.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 04, 2015, 09:21:26 AM
What is abhorrent is gonc supporters claiming the appeal is about justice for Maddie...a total lie

Wrong dave.

The case was though partly about the mccanns need for 'revenge',
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 04, 2015, 09:22:12 AM
Wrong dave.

The case was though partly about the mccanns need for 'revenge',

What is abhorrent is gonc supporters claiming the appeal is about justice for Maddie...a total lie
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 04, 2015, 10:07:15 AM

TOPIC. PLEASE.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 10:12:22 AM
Is it practical for lawyers to limit themselves only to cases where they believe in the client? Doubtful, particularly if they do legal aid cases. There will be a wide variety of cases I would think, ranging from those where the lawyer thinks the client is innocent to those where he knows the client is guilty. Those are personal opinions though. In the real world a lawyer works for money, not justice. To earn his money he must put up a defense. In the last analysis the court decides on justice, not the lawyer.

There is a cab rank principle so an advocate cannot turn down a client except in vary narrow circumstances. 

In cases where the lawyer knows the client is guilty, the he is under no obligation to defend a plea of not guilty because that would mean lying to the court.  In that case he may offer a guilty plea but  argue mitigating circumstances, or decline the case if the client does not agree.

And you are right, judgement is a matter for the court.  The lawyers job is to argue the case.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 04, 2015, 10:18:30 AM
Pegasus or anyone on this thread, a question. 

Do you believe that a lawyer defending a client must as a prerequisite approve of or share their clients views because otherwise they would turn down the case?

No!

As I've always understood it, lawyers defend their clients to the best of their abilities within the remit of what the law will allow.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 10:23:37 AM
Quite clearly no.

Clearly, lawyers will know their client is guilty in some cases.

How they would live with themselves, if  their client was declared not guilty in a trial, and then committed further heinous crimes is another matter entirely.

A lawyer must retain objectivity, because one who becomes emotionally involved in a case will not last long. 

Do you mean suspect his client is guilty, or knows his client is guilty? 

In the former case, his job is to put up the best possible defence. 

In the latter, if the client has told his lawyer he is guilty (and the lawyer has reason to believe client is telling the truth), then he must recommend a plea of guilty and argue mitigating circumstances.

And in answer to your final question, quite easily - his job is to defend.  It is for the prosecution to prove their case, and if they cannot do that (given they hold most of the cards) then the client should go free.   
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 04, 2015, 11:40:03 AM
Pegasus or anyone on this thread, a question. 

Do you believe that a lawyer defending a client must as a prerequisite approve of or share their clients views because otherwise they would turn down the case?
I don't know enough law to answer that. I just see a legal case where one side has more than adequate funds for lawyers, and the other had, until recently, inadequate funds.
 
Many years ago a person reportedly donated about £100000 pounds towards legal costs of Mr Amaral's present opponents, and as no criminal case happened, presumably it became available for other legal costs. As any ballooner will know, if you put all the weight in one side of the basket, the basket will tip that way. The gofundme appeal will balance the basket to ensure a fair flight, which is decided on the law.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 04, 2015, 11:45:13 AM
I don't know enough law to answer that. I just see a legal case where one side has more than adequate funds for lawyers, and the other had, until recently, inadequate funds.
 
Many years ago a person reportedly donated about £100000 pounds towards legal costs of Mr Amaral's opponents. As any ballooner will know, if you put all the weight in one side of the basket, the basket will tip that way. The gofundme appeal will balance the basket to ensure a fair flight, which is decided on the law.

It has been decided on the law and it will be interesting to see where it goes now. I have no problem with amaral raising money from supporters but think it's wrong to promote the fund as justice for Madeleine
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 04, 2015, 11:45:46 AM
Whoever was instrumental in setting up the McCann Fighting Fund certainly knew what he was about - it has proved very useful over the years.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 04, 2015, 12:12:57 PM
It has been decided on the law and it will be interesting to see where it goes now. I have no problem with amaral raising money from supporters but think it's wrong to promote the fund as justice for Madeleine
IMO the original investigation got some important aspects of the case very wrong, and the book and film repeat the same. But that is for the currently active PJ and SY investigations to work on. In this relatively very minor legal case, it makes sense for all parties to have a lawyer.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 12:33:22 PM
I don't know enough law to answer that. I just see a legal case where one side has more than adequate funds for lawyers, and the other had, until recently, inadequate funds.
 
Many years ago a person reportedly donated about £100000 pounds towards legal costs of Mr Amaral's present opponents, and as no criminal case happened, presumably it became available for other legal costs. As any ballooner will know, if you put all the weight in one side of the basket, the basket will tip that way. The gofundme appeal will balance the basket to ensure a fair flight, which is decided on the law.

Yes.

So please do not make the mistake of thinking that all of the donations to the "funds" are from people who support Amarals views.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 04, 2015, 12:48:57 PM
Yes.

So please do not make the mistake of thinking that all of the donations to the "funds" are from people who support Amarals views.

Neither do they support the view that the McCanns are completely innocent of any involvement in their daughters reported disappearance.  You could say the jury is still out on that one!

And speaking of juries, wouldn't it have been interesting to see what a Portuguese jury would have decided in the recent trial instead of a judge with ambitions ??
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 01:07:57 PM
Neither do they support the view that the McCanns are completely innocent of any involvement in their daughters reported disappearance.  You could say the jury is still out on that one!

And speaking of juries, wouldn't it have been interesting to see what a Portuguese jury would have decided in the recent trial instead of a judge with ambitions ??

Sorry Angelo, you will have to explain that one.  I was referring to donations to the "amaral support" funds.  Some posters seemed to be conflating donations received with support for Amarals views. 

Could you explain "judge  with ambitions" please?  Are you suggesting something improper as regards Maria de Melo e Castro?

And what is the point of saying "what a Portuguese jury would have decided in the recent trial instead of a judge with ambitions" - no such thing exists under the Portuguese civil code and so is irrelevant. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 04, 2015, 01:17:30 PM
Yes.

So please do not make the mistake of thinking that all of the donations to the "funds" are from people who support Amarals views.
I strongly disagree with some of the accusations in the original investigation / book / video.
Just 1 example the interpretation of the clothing alerts is IMO wrong wrong wrong.
But I support Mr Amaral, and IMO the young lady is doing a great job to balance the lopsided balloon basket which was hanging at a crazy 45 degrees due to the large amounts of legal expenses cash from rich donors all piled up on one side of the basket.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 04, 2015, 01:21:10 PM
A lawyer must retain objectivity, because one who becomes emotionally involved in a case will not last long. 

Do you mean suspect his client is guilty, or knows his client is guilty? 

In the former case, his job is to put up the best possible defence. 

In the latter, if the client has told his lawyer he is guilty (and the lawyer has reason to believe client is telling the truth), then he must recommend a plea of guilty and argue mitigating circumstances.

And in answer to your final question, quite easily - his job is to defend.  It is for the prosecution to prove their case, and if they cannot do that (given they hold most of the cards) then the client should go free.

I do understand your points, but from a moral framework, I would not have chosen that career path, knowing that if I had, then it would be my job to 'help' potentially guilty people go free, and hence be in a position to commit further crimes.

What other people do in that regard is up to their personal conscience.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 04, 2015, 01:25:04 PM
I strongly disagree with some of the accusations in the original investigation / book / video.
Just 1 example the interpretation of the clothing alerts is IMO wrong wrong wrong.
But I support Mr Amaral, and IMO the young lady is doing a great job to balance the lopsided balloon basket which was hanging at a crazy 45 degrees due to the large amounts of legal expenses cash from rich donors all piled up on one side of the basket.

I totally agree.  The McCanns have always been the fortunate position to be able to throw money at anyone who speaks out against them and that will in the end be their undoing.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 04, 2015, 01:26:58 PM
Sorry Angelo, you will have to explain that one.  I was referring to donations to the "amaral support" funds.  Some posters seemed to be conflating donations received with support for Amarals views. 

Could you explain "judge  with ambitions" please?  Are you suggesting something improper as regards Maria de Melo e Castro?

And what is the point of saying "what a Portuguese jury would have decided in the recent trial instead of a judge with ambitions" - no such thing exists under the Portuguese civil code and so is irrelevant.

A hypothetical situation agreed.  Amaral has attracted so much support because he is seen as the underdog fighting for survival.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 01:27:47 PM
I strongly disagree with some of the accusations in the original investigation / book / video.
Just 1 example the interpretation of the clothing alerts is IMO wrong wrong wrong.
But I support Mr Amaral, and IMO the young lady is doing a great job to balance the lopsided balloon basket which was hanging at a crazy 45 degrees due to the large amounts of legal expenses cash from rich donors all piled up on one side of the basket.

It may surprise you to hear that I agree with you on that. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 04, 2015, 01:28:41 PM
I totally agree.  The McCanns have always been the fortunate position to be able to throw money at anyone who speaks out against them and that will in the end be their undoing.

Why is that?

Most to speak out against them have been misguided and wrong.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 04, 2015, 01:30:06 PM
Why is that?

Most to speak out against them have been misguided and wrong.

'misguided and wrong' ?

You only say that for blatantly obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 01:30:33 PM
A hypothetical situation agreed.  Amaral has attracted so much support because he is seen as the underdog fighting for survival.

Your comments about the judge suggest a nasty attack of sour grapes.



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 04, 2015, 01:30:49 PM
Why is that?

Most to speak out against them have been misguided and wrong.

You mean like you were yesterday when you again tried to claim the Portuguese prosecutors had cleared the McCanns?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 04, 2015, 01:32:37 PM
Your comments about the judge suggest a nasty attack of sour grapes.

Most things in Portugal are still politically motivated so I have no reason to believe the recent trial was any different.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 04, 2015, 01:33:22 PM
Still nothing in any major UK papers except the star about this remarkable raising of more than the 25K target? Hopefully it won't be long before the sun rises.   
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 01:35:03 PM
I totally agree.  The McCanns have always been the fortunate position to be able to throw money at anyone who speaks out against them and that will in the end be their undoing.

What are you saying?  That the McCanns have no right to go to law?

They took action against Express Newspapers and won.  Was that unbalanced?

They took action against Bennett (who had too much money to qualify for legal aid - as does Amaral)  - are you suggesting that Tugendhut was impressed and swayed by fancy lawyers from Carter Ruck?



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 01:35:50 PM
Most things in Portugal are still politically motivated so I have no reason to believe the recent trial was any different.

Portugal is rightly proud of its independent judiciary. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 04, 2015, 01:36:14 PM
Still nothing in any major UK papers except the star about this remarkable raising of more than the 25K target? Hopefully it won't be long before the sun rises.

The British Press are a shower [ moiderated ] and Coulson who was let off by a Scot judge on Friday is one of the worst.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 04, 2015, 01:36:47 PM
Portugal is rightly proud of its independent judiciary.


@)(++(*  Will you still say that if the Appeal Court kick her judgement into touch?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 04, 2015, 01:40:21 PM
What are you saying?  That the McCanns have no right to go to law?

They took action against Express Newspapers and won.  Was that unbalanced?

They took action against Bennett (who had too much money to qualify for legal aid - as does Amaral)  - are you suggesting that Tugendhut was impressed and swayed by fancy lawyers from Carter Ruck?

I imagine most people end up being  impressed and swayed by fancy lawyers from Carter Ruck.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 04, 2015, 01:50:12 PM
I strongly disagree with some of the accusations in the original investigation / book / video.
Just 1 example the interpretation of the clothing alerts is IMO wrong wrong wrong.
But I support Mr Amaral, and IMO the young lady is doing a great job to balance the lopsided balloon basket which was hanging at a crazy 45 degrees due to the large amounts of legal expenses cash from rich donors all piled up on one side of the basket.

Mr Amaral has been supported throughout the process by public subscription paid into a Fund set up by his friends for that purpose.  He has thus been able to employ some of the best lawyers in Portugal ... and has had various disputes and a parting of the ways with some ... on occasion resulting in the case being dragged out and becoming more expensive with each delay.

I suggest had Mr Amaral being paying for this process from his own pocket the case may not have dragged on for as long as it has.
IMO as long as Mr amaral is being funded by others he will be quite happy to keep going for as long as the law allows; and if the funders are happy with their money being spent like that, and obviously they are, there is no problem.

If his appeal is allowed ... I am confident he will lose it ... but in any case he has lost something more important to himself than that ... he has lost credibility.
Not everyone sees the world through the prism of the McCann sites.  The modern view is coloured by the present day events of the PJ and SY investigating the case of a missing little girl and her parents winning record damages against their main accuser.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 01:58:31 PM


@)(++(*  Will you still say that if the Appeal Court kick her judgement into touch?


If that happens, yes.

The difference is that I am a believer in justice - and the process does get most things right (although sometimes it takes time).

I don't cry foul, and make whining excuses about the judge being politically motivated.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 02:00:08 PM
I imagine most people end up being  impressed and swayed by fancy lawyers from Carter Ruck.

How closely did you follow that particular case?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 04, 2015, 02:04:38 PM
How closely did you follow that particular case?

Not at all. I was commenting more about Carter Ruck's general reputation.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 04, 2015, 02:05:28 PM
I'm not having Judge Tugendhat slagged off.  Sorry about that, but it won't be allowed to happen.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on June 04, 2015, 02:31:10 PM

If that happens, yes.

The difference is that I am a believer in justice - and the process does get most things right (although sometimes it takes time).

I don't cry foul, and make whining excuses about the judge being politically motivated.

Angelo is right when he points out that political motivation is prevalent in Portugal.  This is especially true in high profile cases such as this one where precedent is being set.  Anyone who believes that Judge Maria de Melo e Castro didn't take advice from outside her chambers is solely deluding themselves.

Personally I think she wanted to steer a centre course thus why she refused the children's claims and ruled that the Amaral book did not damage the search.  Where she went wrong in my opinion is in the amount of the judgement but then that has opened the doors to the appeal court as if by accident rather than by design?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 02:37:05 PM
Angelo is right when he points out that political motivation is prevalent in Portugal.  This is especially true in high profile cases such as this one where precedent is being set.  Anyone who believes that Judge Maria de Melo e Castro didn't take advice from outside her chambers is solely deluding them self.

Presedent john?  Could you explain how that works in Portugal? 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on June 04, 2015, 02:41:53 PM
Presedent john?  Could you explain how that works in Portugal?

If you mean precedent then I was refereeing to the unique level of the claim unheard of in any previous such trial.  In fact, the nature of the case has set a precedent all on its own as far as Portugal is concerned.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 04, 2015, 02:53:45 PM
I'm not having Judge Tugendhat slagged off.  Sorry about that, but it won't be allowed to happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Tugendhat
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 04, 2015, 02:58:26 PM
If you mean precedent then I was refereeing to the unique level of the claim unheard of in any previous such trial.  In fact, the nature of the case has set a precedent all on its own as far as Portugal is concerned.

Almost every aspect of Madeleine McCann's case is unprecedented.  Perhaps this will be reflected in the unprecedented level of the award against Mr Amaral being allowed to stand, either by refusal of an appeal (and I think it is the only avenue of appeal open) or at appeal.
I think the danger of an appeal is that it is possible the award could be increased rather than decreased.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 04, 2015, 03:06:14 PM
Almost every aspect of Madeleine McCann's case is unprecedented.  Perhaps this will be reflected in the unprecedented level of the award against Mr Amaral being allowed to stand, either by refusal of an appeal (and I think it is the only avenue of appeal open) or at appeal.
I think the danger of an appeal is that it is possible the award could be increased rather than decreased.

Particularly against the backdrop of a present Anglo/Portuguese enquiry that does not remotely consider the McCanns or their friends as suspects, it is a mystery that a book by the first coordinator of the investigation stating that TheMcCannsdunit, covered up the fact of Madeleine's death and fabricated an 'appeal' in their (dead!) daughter's name was not deemed to have harmed the search for Madeleine.

Why is not self-evidently obvious that if people across countries of Europe (including in England, where the English-language version is available on line) read and believe Amaral's book, the search for Madeleine will be harmed?

Perhaps an appeal-court judge will take a different and slightly saner view?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on June 04, 2015, 03:07:39 PM
Almost every aspect of Madeleine McCann's case is unprecedented.  Perhaps this will be reflected in the unprecedented level of the award against Mr Amaral being allowed to stand, either by refusal of an appeal (and I think it is the only avenue of appeal open) or at appeal.
I think the danger of an appeal is that it is possible the award could be increased rather than decreased.

I don't think that could ever happen in this case Brietta.  Furthermore, if remains are eventually discovered as I expect they will, this could also change the entire centre of gravity of any appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 04, 2015, 03:08:37 PM
As to any suggestion of outside influence, my first thought when I read the judgement was that it read as if Isabel Duarte had dictated it to her. JMO.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 04, 2015, 03:40:28 PM
If you mean precedent then I was refereeing to the unique level of the claim unheard of in any previous such trial.  In fact, the nature of the case has set a precedent all on its own as far as Portugal is concerned.

as I have already posted...if amaral questions the level of the claim then he is accepting that some level of claim is due and therefore admitting liability
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on June 04, 2015, 03:43:22 PM
as I have already posted...if amaral questions the level of the claim then he is accepting that some level of claim is due and therefore admitting liability

We will have to wait and see but the question of the level of the claim is but one part of a bigger picture.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 04, 2015, 03:46:09 PM
I don't think that could ever happen in this case Brietta.  Furthermore, if remains are eventually discovered as I expect they will, this could also change the entire centre of gravity of any appeal.

is there any real chance of that happenning
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 04, 2015, 03:52:13 PM
Does anyone actually know who the signatories are for the Amaral Defence Fund?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 04, 2015, 04:11:13 PM
As to any suggestion of outside influence, my first thought when I read the judgement was that it read as if Isabel Duarte had dictated it to her. JMO.


If the judge had found against the plaintiff and for the defendant ... it would have exemplified the fairness of the Portuguese Judicial System and the impartiality of the Courts.

That the judge has found for the plaintiff and against the defendant ... the implication is being seeded that the Portuguese Judicial System may be less than impartial.

If Mr Amaral's appeal is not allowed or if it is unsuccessful, I await the reaction with bated breath.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 04, 2015, 04:13:36 PM
Does anyone actually know who the signatories are for the Amaral Defence Fund?

As everything is open and transparent someone will post a reply to that any moment now, Misty.  Probably with a statement of ingoing and outgoing sums.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 04, 2015, 04:24:33 PM
As everything is open and transparent someone will post a reply to that any moment now, Misty.  Probably with a statement of ingoing and outgoing sums.

I am actually really concerned about Leanne's legal position in all this, bearing in mind she is the GoFundMe fundraiser.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 04, 2015, 04:31:53 PM
Would you care to share your concerns ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 04, 2015, 04:45:58 PM
As to any suggestion of outside influence, my first thought when I read the judgement was that it read as if Isabel Duarte had dictated it to her. JMO.
@)(++(* Didn't you once inform this forum that there had never been a miscarriage of justice in Portugal? Now suddenly your legal system is bent as a 9 bob bit and all because of one ruling in favour of a couple of people you don't happen to like very much.   
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 04, 2015, 04:48:47 PM
Would you care to share your concerns ?

Normally, GoFundMe donations are made directly into the bank a/c of the fundraiser, but Leanne has chosen to have them paid into the Santander a/c.
If it is discovered the funds are not being used as intended, ie, for legal expenses, who will be liable should contributors wish to sue for fraud?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 04, 2015, 04:52:59 PM
As everything is open and transparent someone will post a reply to that any moment now, Misty.  Probably with a statement of ingoing and outgoing sums.

I'm still waiting. The sceptics are unusually quiet on this one.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 04, 2015, 04:54:28 PM
Normally, GoFundMe donations are made directly into the bank a/c of the fundraiser, but Leanne has chosen to have them paid into the Santander a/c.
If it is discovered the funds are not being used as intended, ie, for legal expenses, who will be liable should contributors wish to sue for fraud?


Afraid I don't know what the Santander  a/c is.
Does this mean that by so doing, she has removed herself from all liability? If so, it sounds a wise move.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 04, 2015, 05:00:56 PM
If the money is not used for the purpose for which it was intended then the donor can apply for a refund I think from GFM I think, but would have to provide proof.  My bet is that the majority of the Ammy Barmy Army will be happy regardless of what the money is spent on, even if it's a new hat and another diamond earring. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 04, 2015, 05:06:25 PM
Almost every aspect of Madeleine McCann's case is unprecedented.  Perhaps this will be reflected in the unprecedented level of the award against Mr Amaral being allowed to stand, either by refusal of an appeal (and I think it is the only avenue of appeal open) or at appeal.
I think the danger of an appeal is that it is possible the award could be increased rather than decreased.

That would appear to be a risk, although I expect that in a country in which appeals appear to be so commonplace that appeals are expected.

I can understand that it appears to be a huge award in Portuguese terms, but then so were his gains of several hundred thousand euros. And that was what could be proven - but his gains appear to be conveniently forgotten for some reason when raising the issue.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 04, 2015, 05:08:11 PM
So do I take it no appeal was lodged today?  I guess it will be tomorrow then, or Monday.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 04, 2015, 05:15:14 PM

Afraid I don't know what the Santander  a/c is.
Does this mean that by so doing, she has removed herself from all liability? If so, it sounds a wise move.

Sorry, meant the BPI, not Santander (too much sun!).
Any contract is between Leanne & GoFundMe, not the recipient of the benefactions. She has asked for donations to be made via an organisation which charge a fee for their services.
I'm not questioning Leanne's motives or trustworthiness in all this. All I want to know is her legal position regarding the donations, should the a/c not be being used for the purposes it claims.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 05:24:28 PM
As to any suggestion of outside influence, my first thought when I read the judgement was that it read as if Isabel Duarte had dictated it to her. JMO.

So you don't think much of the Portuguese justice system, Montclair? 

Is that in general, or just when the judgement goes against "your boy"?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 04, 2015, 05:30:02 PM
So you don't think much of the Portuguese justice system, Montclair? 

Is that in general, or just when the judgement goes against "your boy"?
Montclair was always a great champion of all things Portuguese, even claiming there had never been a miscarriage of justice there - country's obviously gone to the dogs in the last few weeks!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 04, 2015, 05:39:09 PM
Sorry, meant the BPI, not Santander (too much sun!).
Any contract is between Leanne & GoFundMe, not the recipient of the benefactions. She has asked for donations to be made via an organisation which charge a fee for their services.
I'm not questioning Leanne's motives or trustworthiness in all this. All I want to know is her legal position regarding the donations, should the a/c not be being used for the purposes it claims.
She has stated in black and white exactly what the fund is for - legal costs.
Now where is the equivalent statement of what the other fund is for?
There was a statement by a spokesperson on NZ radio stating it would not be used for legal costs.
It is the ultimate in transparency - so transparent that it is invisible.
Does it mention being used to influence foreign local elections - I don't know - where is it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 05:43:56 PM
Sorry, meant the BPI, not Santander (too much sun!).
Any contract is between Leanne & GoFundMe, not the recipient of the benefactions. She has asked for donations to be made via an organisation which charge a fee for their services.
I'm not questioning Leanne's motives or trustworthiness in all this. All I want to know is her legal position regarding the donations, should the a/c not be being used for the purposes it claims.

The legal position is that gofundme operates under Californian law.  All donations are in the nature of an outright gift, and the money can be used for any purpose whatsoever.

That nowithstanding I would expect contributors to this and to the PJGA to be made aware of the financial position of fund. Transparency was promised but so far has been observed in the breach.

It is interesting that so many of those who complain about lack of transparency in the "find madeleine" fund (which is subject to independent scrutiny and audit) are sanguine about the total lack of transparency in the PJGA.   

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 04, 2015, 05:46:20 PM
The legal position is that gofundme operates under Californian law.  All donations are in the nature of an outright gift, and the money can be used for any purpose whatsoever.

That nowithstanding I would expect contributors to this and to the PJGA to be made aware of the financial position of fund. Transparency was promised but so far has been observed in the breach.

It is interesting that so many of those who complain about lack of transparency in the "find madeleine" fund (which is subject to independent scrutiny and audit) are sanguine about the total lack of transparency in the PJGA.
It's been suggested by the resident forum know-it-all that all one needs to do is write to the fund manager and ask for details of the accounts - are you game?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 05:48:30 PM
She has stated in black and white exactly what the fund is for - legal costs.
Now where is the equivalent statement of what the other fund is for?
There was a statement by a spokesperson on NZ radio stating it would not be used for legal costs.
It is the ultimate in transparency - so transparent that it is invisible.
Does it mention being used to influence foreign local elections - I don't know - where is it?

She can state what she likes.  The minimum standard I would hope for would be an independent scrutiny of the accounts and income and outgoings. 

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 04, 2015, 05:55:47 PM
The legal position is that gofundme operates under Californian law.  All donations are in the nature of an outright gift, and the money can be used for any purpose whatsoever.

That nowithstanding I would expect contributors to this and to the PJGA to be made aware of the financial position of fund. Transparency was promised but so far has been observed in the breach.

It is interesting that so many of those who complain about lack of transparency in the "find madeleine" fund (which is subject to independent scrutiny and audit) are sanguine about the total lack of transparency in the PJGA.

Personally, I have no objection to people paying to have a time-share certificate on a meteor 1 million light-years away from planet Earth, provided they are compos mentis and are doing so using disposable income of no consequence. I can think of numerous ways in which to support people who have no access to clean water on planet Earth, for example, but... to each his own.

Question: what is the tax situation on this issue?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 04, 2015, 06:04:22 PM
http://www.gofundme.com/safety
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 04, 2015, 06:05:45 PM
Personally, I have no objection to people paying to have a time-share certificate on a meteor 1 million light-years away from planet Earth, provided they are compos mentis and are doing so using disposable income of no consequence. I can think of numerous ways in which to support people who have no access to clean water on planet Earth, for example, but... to each his own.

Question: what is the tax situation on this issue?

My objection would be if they were exercising double standards by vociferously criticising those contributing to a time share on the planet Zog.

The tax situation is of interest.  Would it be classed as 'unearned income'? and might the Portuguese Revenue Service be thinking about this and asking to see the books?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 06:09:58 PM
She has stated in black and white exactly what the fund is for - legal costs.
Now where is the equivalent statement of what the other fund is for?
There was a statement by a spokesperson on NZ radio stating it would not be used for legal costs.
It is the ultimate in transparency - so transparent that it is invisible.
Does it mention being used to influence foreign local elections - I don't know - where is it?

What on earth is this about?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 04, 2015, 06:10:43 PM
http://www.gofundme.com/safety

As has been pointed out, no one is questioning Leanne's integrity ... but once she has authorised transfer to another account, it is out of her control.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 06:13:15 PM
My objection would be if they were exercising double standards by vociferously criticising those contributing to a time share on the planet Zog.

The tax situation is of interest.  Would it be classed as 'unearned income'? and might the Portuguese Revenue Service be thinking about this and asking to see the books?

It is a private gift, freely given and not in return for any form of service. Ergo it is not taxable as income.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 04, 2015, 06:13:21 PM
http://www.gofundme.com/safety

"Donors should only contribute payments to GoFundMe users they personally know and trust" - hmmm....I neither know Leeanne / Gonc, nor trust either of them as far as I could throw 'em so that's me out at the first hurdle... @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 04, 2015, 06:20:19 PM
It is a private gift, freely given and not in return for any form of service. Ergo it is not taxable as income.

Thanks, JP.  So in effect it can be used for whatever.  I seem to remember that at a time money was being donated for legal expenses to PJGA one of Mr Amaral's lawyers insisting on payment up-front before continuing with the case, maybe that explains it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 04, 2015, 06:28:23 PM
"Donors should only contribute payments to GoFundMe users they personally know and trust" - hmmm....I neither know Leeanne / Gonc, nor trust either of them as far as I could throw 'em so that's me out at the first hurdle... @)(++(*
No surprise there then  8(0(*

Harry S Truman
I don't believe in anti-anything. A man has to have a program. You have to be for something, otherwise you will never get anywhere.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 04, 2015, 06:41:30 PM
Thanks, JP.  So in effect it can be used for whatever.  I seem to remember that at a time money was being donated for legal expenses to PJGA one of Mr Amaral's lawyers insisting on payment up-front before continuing with the case, maybe that explains it.

Or a sizable court fee to be paid when filing the appeal papers.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 04, 2015, 06:41:40 PM
No surprise there then  8(0(*

Harry S Truman
I don't believe in anti-anything. A man has to have a program. You have to be for something, otherwise you will never get anywhere.
I am for something, it just doesn't happen to be a bent ex-cop or his fan club secretary.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 04, 2015, 06:42:13 PM
It is a private gift, freely given and not in return for any form of service. Ergo it is not taxable as income.

In terms of which tax authority?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 04, 2015, 06:48:39 PM
I am for something, it just doesn't happen to be a bent ex-cop or his fan club secretary.

It is difficult to pick that up from your posts. We are all too aware of what you are not for but what you are for does not exactly shine through like a beacon.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 06:49:14 PM
In terms of which tax authority?

In most jurisdictions.  Certainly throughout Europe. 

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 04, 2015, 06:53:51 PM
It is difficult to pick that up from your posts. We are all too aware of what you are not for but what you are for does not exactly shine through like a beacon.
Your lack of perception is my problem or concern how exactly...?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 04, 2015, 07:45:37 PM
What on earth is this about?
Its a purposely ridiculous post to try to get someone to answer this:
The gofundme appeal clearly states its purpose: "for legal costs".
Where is the equivalent statement of the other fund? What does it say?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 04, 2015, 08:07:20 PM
In most jurisdictions.  Certainly throughout Europe.

I don't understand, JP.

I expect that the girl who set up this fund is genuine and sincerely hopes to support her hero, Amaral.

My question isn't about her, but is more general: can anyone set up a gofundme account and raise and send money in this day and age without it being questioned anywhere?

Aside from potential laundering scrutiny, wouldn't there be a tax liability or two somewhere along the line?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 08:20:42 PM
I don't understand, JP.

I expect that the girl who set up this fund is genuine and sincerely hopes to support her hero, Amaral.

My question isn't about her, but is more general: can anyone set up a gofundme account and raise and send money in this day and age without it being questioned anywhere?

Aside from potential laundering scrutiny, wouldn't there be a tax liability or two somewhere along the line?

Why would there be?  If I were to say Carana, my dear, I really like you (I do) and I want to give you £1000 (Not going to happen - sorry) - there are no tax consequences for either of us.

I cannot claim any tax relief (it is not wholly / necessarily / exclusive) in relation to a trade or profession and you are not a charity - I am paying you the money as a gift (not in return for some service - don't go there...) so you have no tax liability.  There is no VAT liability.  There may be some transfer tax - but the amounts are way below the limit.

Leanne is merely acting as a collecting agent -so not liable.

There may possibly be some money laundering issues if the value of a single transaction were more than 15k euros.  But as this is a gift, and transactions are channelled through a bank - very very unlikely.

The only issues that I can see would be if Leanne took the money (over 10k euros) cross border in cash without declaring it.

So that's the position - you may not like it but there you go
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 04, 2015, 08:50:52 PM
Here are the official objects of the other fund.
The struck out clause was there up to about Dec 2011 when it was removed.

***********************************
The objects of the Foundation are:
To secure the safe return to her family of Madeleine McCann who was abducted in Praia da Luz, Portugal on Thursday 3rd May 2007; and
To procure that Madeleine's abduction is thoroughly investigated and that her abductors, as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them, are identified and brought to Justice.
To provide support, including financial assistance, to Madeleine's family.
***********************************

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 08:57:29 PM
Here are the official objects of the other fund.
The struck out clause was there up to about Dec 2011 when it was removed.

***********************************
The objects of the Foundation are:
To secure the safe return to her family of Madeleine McCann who was abducted in Praia da Luz, Portugal on Thursday 3rd May 2007; and
To procure that Madeleine's abduction is thoroughly investigated and that her abductors, as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them, are identified and brought to Justice.
To provide support, including financial assistance, to Madeleine's family.
***********************************

Oh dear Pegasus.

Your really do seem to have some problem with reality.

Fund Objectives

The full objects of the Fund are:
To secure the safe return to her family of Madeleine McCann who was abducted in Praia da Luz, Portugal on Thursday 3rd May 2007;
To procure that Madeleine's abduction is thoroughly investigated and that her abductors, as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them, are identified and brought to justice; and
To provide support, including financial assistance, to Madeleine's family.

http://www.findmadeleine.com/about_us/madeleines-fund.html

I am sure you have a simple explanation.........
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 04, 2015, 09:28:39 PM
@jean-pierre
It appears looking at your definitive up-to-date source that you are right
The third object is stiill there
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 04, 2015, 09:37:52 PM
Why would there be?  If I were to say Carana, my dear, I really like you (I do) and I want to give you £1000 (Not going to happen - sorry) - there are no tax consequences for either of us.

I cannot claim any tax relief (it is not wholly / necessarily / exclusive) in relation to a trade or profession and you are not a charity - I am paying you the money as a gift (not in return for some service - don't go there...) so you have no tax liability.  There is no VAT liability.  There may be some transfer tax - but the amounts are way below the limit.

Leanne is merely acting as a collecting agent -so not liable.

There may possibly be some money laundering issues if the value of a single transaction were more than 15k euros.  But as this is a gift, and transactions are channelled through a bank - very very unlikely.

The only issues that I can see would be if Leanne took the money (over 10k euros) cross border in cash without declaring it.

So that's the position - you may not like it but there you go

Ok. I was just curious. So what you're saying is that as they are transactions between private accounts below a certain threshold, there's no tax? Until presumably the money reaches the destination, presumably either the court or the lawyer who would have to declare the income - as he/she would have to do anyway? Is that correct?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 09:47:44 PM
Ok. I was just curious. So what you're saying is that as they are transactions between private accounts below a certain threshold, there's no tax? Until presumably the money reaches the destination, presumably either the court or the lawyer who would have to declare the income - as he/she would have to do anyway? Is that correct?

Yes - amaral paying the lawyer for services would be taxable income.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 04, 2015, 10:13:55 PM
@jean-pierre
It appears looking at your definitive up-to-date source that you are right
The third object is stiill there

Is it in the company's Articles of Association? They appear to be as follows according to Companies House following amendment December 2011.
Objects
2B. The objects of the Foundation are:
2B.1.1 To secure the safe return to her family of Madeleine McCann who was abducted in Praia da Luz, Portugal on Thursday 3rd May 2007; and
2B.1.2 To procure that Madeleine's abduction is thoroughly investigated and that her abductors, as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them, are identified and brought to Justice.
2B.2 If the above objects are fulfilled then the objects of the Foundation shall be to pursue such purposes in similar cases arising in the United Kingdom, Portugal or elsewhere.


The powers are interesting.
You can buy the document from CH WebCheck if you fancy  8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 04, 2015, 10:25:53 PM
Is it in the company's Articles of Association? They appear to be as follows according to Companies House following amendment December 2011.
Objects
2B. The objects of the Foundation are:
2B.1.1 To secure the safe return to her family of Madeleine McCann who was abducted in Praia da Luz, Portugal on Thursday 3rd May 2007; and
2B.1.2 To procure that Madeleine's abduction is thoroughly investigated and that her abductors, as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them, are identified and brought to Justice.
2B.2 If the above objects are fulfilled then the objects of the Foundation shall be to pursue such purposes in similar cases arising in the United Kingdom, Portugal or elsewhere.


The powers are interesting.
You can buy the document from CH WebCheck if you fancy  8(0(*

Does that mean that the clause about supporting the family was removed? It's still on the website though?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 04, 2015, 10:53:24 PM
Is it in the company's Articles of Association? They appear to be as follows according to Companies House following amendment December 2011.
Objects
2B. The objects of the Foundation are:
2B.1.1 To secure the safe return to her family of Madeleine McCann who was abducted in Praia da Luz, Portugal on Thursday 3rd May 2007; and
2B.1.2 To procure that Madeleine's abduction is thoroughly investigated and that her abductors, as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them, are identified and brought to Justice.
2B.2 If the above objects are fulfilled then the objects of the Foundation shall be to pursue such purposes in similar cases arising in the United Kingdom, Portugal or elsewhere.


The powers are interesting.
You can buy the document from CH WebCheck if you fancy  8(0(*
Yes I know.
Did you not detect the hint of sarcasm when I referred to the site as "definitive" and "up-to-date"?
Here is the official website ..
And here is the document from company house ..
The third "object" was deleted at the end of 2011.
So the site has been wrong for how many years? Over 3? Is that possible?
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 11:12:45 PM
I do apologise Pegasus - the mem and arts do not include assistance to the McCanns - you were quite right.

So the fund cannot be being used to fund legal action against Amaral. 

They are quite clear as to the uses the fund monies can be put to.

Which puts a rather different perspective on the financial equality question, does it not.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 04, 2015, 11:35:51 PM
Thanks. So probably there is a seperate fund for legal expenditure?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 04, 2015, 11:45:01 PM
Thanks. So probably there is a seperate fund for legal expenditure?

Well either the McCanns are funding it themselves, or have negotiated contingency fees with their lawyers.  In my opinion this is the most likely.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 04, 2015, 11:45:28 PM
Does that mean that the clause about supporting the family was removed? It's still on the website though?
Yes, officially removed at end of 2011, but still on website today.
Probably it will be gone tomorrow.
The ears have walls.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 04, 2015, 11:58:26 PM
Well either the McCanns are funding it themselves, or have negotiated contingency fees with their lawyers.  In my opinion this is the most likely.
IMO there must be a large amount of funding for legal expenditure.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 05, 2015, 12:34:31 AM
IMO there must be a large amount of funding for legal expenditure.

If contingency fee, why?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 01:14:34 AM
If contingency fee, why?
I remember at least two millionaires providing large money for legal costs.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 05, 2015, 01:18:34 AM
I remember at least two millionaires providing large money for legal costs.

Possibly - but do you agree that the important thing is that both sides have adequate funding for representation? 



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 01:42:08 AM
Possibly - but do you agree that the important thing is that both sides have adequate funding for representation?
Far more important is that SY and PJ together solve the case now and I think that may be happening.
Only then I think will Mr Amaral be content.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 05, 2015, 02:08:51 AM
Far more important is that SY and PJ together solve the case now and I think that may be happening.
Only then I think will Mr Amaral be content.

Amen to that

However we will have to agree to differ on Amaral. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 05, 2015, 02:36:15 AM

Jean Pierre, you try so hard to be fair.  Or perhaps you don't.  It doesn't really matter.  But I know that you donated the The Amaral Fund in the name of Balance, but call it what you will.
Some persons just don't want to know, or even understand why.  So they ignore what you did.

I haven't donated to anything and probably never will.  The pound in my pocket is too important to me.  And I can't be asked to show loyalty by giving money that I can ill afford, to anyone who is far better off than I am.

I just stick in here, and hope.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 05, 2015, 07:02:43 AM
I do apologise Pegasus - the mem and arts do not include assistance to the McCanns - you were quite right.

So the fund cannot be being used to fund legal action against Amaral. 

They are quite clear as to the uses the fund monies can be put to.

Which puts a rather different perspective on the financial equality question, does it not.

As they argued that the book harmed the search for Madeleine and as she was involved in the action the fund may have been used, although they did have a legal defense fund at one point started by Richard Branson when the McCanns were made arguidos. I wonder if that was actual money or pledges.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 05, 2015, 08:05:27 AM
Do we have actual confirmation that Amaral has appealed?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 05, 2015, 08:10:56 AM
Do we have actual confirmation that Amaral has appealed?
Today or Monday 8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 05, 2015, 08:16:38 AM
Do we have actual confirmation that Amaral has appealed?

It seems not . When amaral is totally quiet we are told he's biding his time...when SY are quiet we are told they are doing nothing...the usual double standards of the deluded
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 05, 2015, 08:38:18 AM
After Amaral has lodged his appeal, how long will it be before we know whether his grounds of appeal have been accepted (distinct from when the appeal, if allowed, will be heard)?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 05, 2015, 09:21:41 AM
Jean Pierre, you try so hard to be fair.  Or perhaps you don't.  It doesn't really matter.  But I know that you donated the The Amaral Fund in the name of Balance, but call it what you will.
Some persons just don't want to know, or even understand why.  So they ignore what you did.

I haven't donated to anything and probably never will. The pound in my pocket is too important to me.  And I can't be asked to show loyalty by giving money that I can ill afford, to anyone who is far better off than I am.

I just stick in here, and hope.

Even in France?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 05, 2015, 09:38:41 AM
After Amaral has lodged his appeal, how long will it be before we know whether his grounds of appeal have been accepted (distinct from when the appeal, if allowed, will be heard)?

I suggest that you read back about appeals as it seems that you have not yet grasped certain facts. If the first instance judge does not accept the grounds for appeal, she maintains her judgement and she then sends the appeal up to the Tribunal da Relação.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 05, 2015, 09:48:08 AM
Possibly - but do you agree that the important thing is that both sides have adequate funding for representation?

That possibly is the only point you and I agree on J-P.
The law is for everyone regardless; even those we don't like.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 05, 2015, 10:10:01 AM
Far more important is that SY and PJ together solve the case now and I think that may be happening.
Only then I think will Mr Amaral be content.


I think one of the worst days of Mr Amaral's life may very well have been the day of this announcement. 


Portuguese police have reopened their inquiry into the disappearance of British girl Madeleine McCann, the public prosecutor's office has said.

Madeleine, from Leicestershire, was three when she disappeared from Praia da Luz in the Algarve in May 2007.

Portugal's attorney general said "new elements of evidence" justified the "continuation of the investigation", which was shelved by police in 2008.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24655826



Madeleine McCann's parents had been striving for the case to be reopened by Britain and Portugal in an effort to find out what happened to their daughter. Therein lies the only possible "Justice" for Madeleine. 

In the interim Mr Amaral had been indulging in making a very good living from touring television studios in Portugal insisting that his theory was the only solution and systematically blackguarding her parents in the process. 

It is my opinion that the last thing in the world that Mr Amaral and his support want is a resolution to Madeleine McCann's case.

He would have written a different book if he had, that is if he thought it appropriate to write a book at all ... and not one in which he promoted his 'solution' to a case he had dismally failed to solve perhaps in part because of his adherence to his fantastic theory.

I think you may fail to understand that in the Portugal that matters ~ that of Law & Order ~ Mr Amaral's credit has long since run out.  The final cut to any credibility he may have held onto was the evidence which allowed the reopening of Madeleine's case.

The Portuguese Courts consistently rule against him and I think his appeal if granted is merely his device for postponing the inevitable.

 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 05, 2015, 10:12:59 AM
I suggest that you read back about appeals as it seems that you have not yet grasped certain facts. If the first instance judge does not accept the grounds for appeal, she maintains her judgement and she then sends the appeal up to the Tribunal da Relação.

However, the appeal must have substance, and challenge either proven facts or specific points of law. 

It will not be sufficient simply to say he doesn't like the judgement. 

And here lies the rub - having read the judgement, I cannot see much wriggle room for him.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 05, 2015, 10:13:51 AM
I think the worse day of his life was the day he was appointed to the McCann investigation.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 05, 2015, 10:14:43 AM
That possibly is the only point you and I agree on J-P.
The law is for everyone regardless; even those we don't like.

That is a hallmark of what passes for civilisation.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 05, 2015, 10:18:44 AM
It seems not . When amaral is totally quiet we are told he's biding his time...when SY are quiet we are told they are doing nothing...the usual double standards of the deluded

      Hmmm ... the tick-tock thing?  Seems to be working out, although not quite as intended.

Anyone who thinks Mr Amaral's legal team are not working assiduously behind the scene is deluded.  Similarly anyone who believes SY and the PJ are not working assiduously behind the scenes are deluded.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 05, 2015, 10:19:33 AM
However, the appeal must have substance, and challenge either proven facts or specific points of law. 

It will not be sufficient simply to say he doesn't like the judgement. 

And here lies the rub - having read the judgement, I cannot see much wriggle room for him.

I find that his recent media spoutings offer an idea of what he might attempt to present...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on June 05, 2015, 10:26:51 AM
I think the worse day of his life was the day he was appointed to the McCann investigation.

He appointed himself didn't he?      I think he was out of his depth.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 05, 2015, 10:34:22 AM
I find that his recent media spoutings offer an idea of what he might attempt to present...

Neglect?

Rejected by the prosecutors.

May not be promising (for Amaral)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 10:36:59 AM
Amen to that

However we will have to agree to differ on Amaral.
It's possible and maybe it requires at first no new evidence just one eureka moment.
If it is solved I think Mr Amaral will be satisfied, whatever the proven solution turns out to be, justice is all.
Meanwhile it's important to counter ongoing IMO attempts to destroy him.
BTW were meetings Lisbon mid-Jan '11 about this libel case ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 05, 2015, 10:41:50 AM
I think the worse day of his life was the day he was appointed to the McCann investigation.
Rubbish - the McCann case made him rich and famous, briefly.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 10:55:00 AM
(snip)... Mr Amaral's credit has long since run out. ...(snip)
He was certainly highly regarded by the PSD political party when they chose him as their candidate for president of the town of Olhão.

Respected also by the people of Olhão.
The polls in Jan 2011 predicted that he would get 53% of the votes and easily win the election.
That's something the PSD had never done in Olhão since '74.

I don't understand what happened next, do you?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 05, 2015, 10:58:40 AM
It's possible and maybe it requires at first no new evidence just one eureka moment.
If it is solved I think Mr Amaral will be satisfied, whatever the proven solution turns out to be, justice is all.
Meanwhile it's important to counter ongoing IMO attempts to destroy him.
BTW were meetings Lisbon mid-Jan '11 about this libel case ?



Do I take it that you see the McCanns attempt to enforce their legitimate legal rights through the Portuguese courts as attempts to  "destroy him"?  How very melodramatic.

Who or what forced him (having failed to bring a prosecution) to write a book and make a documentary accusing two grieving parents of crimes, and attempting to damage their reputations.

Face facts - he saw an opportunity to get rich on the back of a missing child - he lost. Tough.

I take it you are happy to have a bent, greedy thuggish ex cop as your role model?  Happy days. 

 

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 05, 2015, 11:00:21 AM
He was certainly highly regarded by the PSD political party when they chose him as their candidate for president of the town of Olhão.

Respected also by the people of Olhão.
The polls in Jan 2011 predicted that he would get 53% of the votes and easily win the election.
That's something the PSD had never done in Olhão since '74.

You actually believe Gerry McCann prevented him from becoming president?  Jesus.   *&*%£ *&*%£ *&*%£ 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 05, 2015, 11:04:28 AM
Rubbish - the McCann case made him rich and famous, briefly.

Exactly - think how happy he might have been to have never heard of the McCanns - like many others of us, actually.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 05, 2015, 11:22:08 AM
Exactly - think how happy he might have been to have never heard of the McCanns - like many others of us, actually.

It depends - he saw the McCanns as a way out of his financial mess and though he could make a few hundred thousand euros from his potboiler. 

I don't think he ever imagined the McCanns might just object. 

Or take him through the Portuguese courts.

 

 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 05, 2015, 11:27:59 AM
It's possible and maybe it requires at first no new evidence just one eureka moment.
If it is solved I think Mr Amaral will be satisfied, whatever the proven solution turns out to be, justice is all.
Meanwhile it's important to counter ongoing IMO attempts to destroy him.
BTW were meetings Lisbon mid-Jan '11 about this libel case ?

Do you think Amaral's attempts to destroy the McCanns, ultimately by having them rot in a Portuguese jail for the next 25 years for a crime someone else committed against their daughter, should simply be brushed aside/disregarded/ignorned?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 05, 2015, 11:30:39 AM
I think the worse day of his life was the day he was appointed to the McCann investigation.

Quite possibly.

The second worst day of the McCanns' life too -- and Madeleine's extended family.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 05, 2015, 11:32:29 AM
Do you think Amaral's attempts to destroy the McCanns, ultimately by having them rot in a Portuguese jail for the next 25 years for a crime someone else committed against their daughter, should simply be brushed aside/disregarded/ignorned?

What crime did you have in mind ? The police haven't yet determined that a crime has been committed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 05, 2015, 11:35:58 AM
What crime did you have in mind ? The police haven't yet determined that a crime has been committed.

I don't think anyone disputes crime(s) was/were committed against Madeleine (whatever happened to her).

Do they?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 05, 2015, 11:37:48 AM
What crime do the police say has been committed?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 05, 2015, 11:40:50 AM
What crime do the police say has been committed?

Crimes unknown.

There is no trace of Madeleine.

But abduction seems top of the bill as one.

I cannot conceive how she could have vanished without crimes having been committed.

Can you?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 05, 2015, 11:49:02 AM
It is highly probable that some crime has been committed, but until the cause of her disappearance has been determined beyond doubt, it will only remain a probability.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carew on June 05, 2015, 11:49:53 AM
Crimes unknown.

There is no trace of Madeleine.

But abduction seems top of the bill as one.

I cannot conceive how she could have vanished without crimes having been committed.

Can you?


Got out of the apartment and wandered?.........met with an accident re hole made during roadworks which were later filled in?

Wasn`t this mentioned as "possible" on a thread somewhere?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 05, 2015, 11:52:21 AM

Got out of the apartment and wandered?.........met with an accident re hole made during roadworks which were later filled in?

Wasn`t this mentioned as "possible" on a thread somewhere?

I recall reading in the files (somewhere) that roadworks were uncovered and searched and no trace of a body was found.

Besides, Kate firmly squashed woke and wandered ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 12:01:35 PM


Do I take it that you see the McCanns attempt to enforce their legitimate legal rights through the Portuguese courts as attempts to  "destroy him"?  How very melodramatic.

Who or what forced him (having failed to bring a prosecution) to write a book and make a documentary accusing two grieving parents of crimes, and attempting to damage their reputations.

Face facts - he saw an opportunity to get rich on the back of a missing child - he lost. Tough.

I take it you are happy to have a bent, greedy thuggish ex cop as your role model?  Happy days.
I find your "saw an opportunity to get rich on the back of a missing child" by writing a book difficult to understand.
Do you also believe the first of its usual extensions, which that Cristovao the same?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carew on June 05, 2015, 12:04:49 PM
I recall reading in the files (somewhere) that roadworks were uncovered and searched and no trace of a body was found.

Besides, Kate firmly squashed woke and wandered ...

Thankyou for that.......I hadn`t realised that the roadworks had been uncovered and searched.

Kate "firmly squashing" anything is neither here nor there, though.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 05, 2015, 12:19:05 PM
I find your "saw an opportunity to get rich on the back of a missing child" by writing a book difficult to understand.
Do you also believe the first of its usual extensions, which that Cristovao the same?

There is absolutely no doubt that Goncalo Amaral enjoyed a celebrity lifestyle and income directly as a result of his involvement with Madeleine McCann's case.

There was precedent for former police officer friends to write about cases of missing children and do very well financially as a result.

In Cristovao's writings about Madeleine ... he was at pains to introduce fictional detectives which apparently made his book an ordinary whodunnit ... Mr Amaral did not even pay lip service to anything other than his certainties being the whole truth.

Even if he is allowed to appeal, which we should hear about pretty soon ... he is going to have to think about getting himself a real job to pay his way ... as his career using Madeleine McCann as a cash cow and her parents as punch bags would be in my opinion ... at an end.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 05, 2015, 12:19:39 PM
I find your "saw an opportunity to get rich on the back of a missing child" by writing a book difficult to understand.
Do you also believe the first of its usual extensions, which that Cristovao the same?

What is difficult to understand?  He did write a book.  And he did get rich. 

The reason the book sold is because it was written by the (ex) cop in charge of the investigation, and he had become well known during the case.  So his book had more "credibility" than Cristavo's.

The case had attracted lot of interest.

The McCanns were spectacularly made arguidos in the disappearance of their daughter (but only because Amaral could not understand what was evidence and what was not).

Given all that has come out since - even one of the co respondants lawyers said that much of the book had been made up - I find it difficult to understand the posters on here who think Amaral is terribly hard done by and I would love to debate the reasons why.

 He took a risk by breaking the rules (how many other ex cps have written about their cases) and he got caught.  Tough.



 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 12:39:39 PM
What is difficult to understand?  He did write a book.  And he did get rich. 

The reason the book sold is because it was written by the (ex) cop in charge of the investigation, and he had become well known during the case.  So his book had more "credibility" than Cristavo's.

The case had attracted lot of interest.

The McCanns were spectacularly made arguidos in the disappearance of their daughter (but only because Amaral could not understand what was evidence and what was not).

Given all that has come out since - even one of the co respondants lawyers said that much of the book had been made up - I find it difficult to understand the posters on here who think Amaral is terribly hard done by and I would love to debate the reasons why.

 He took a risk by breaking the rules (how many other ex cps have written about their cases) and he got caught.  Tough.


I would be interested to know on what date you claim he first decided to get rich by writing a book - do you mean Oct 2nd? Or are you going so far back of 4th May?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 05, 2015, 12:48:36 PM
I would be interested to know on what date you claim he first decided to get rich by writing a book - do you mean Oct 2nd? Or are you going so far back of 4th May?

Who knows. Obviously before the 28th July 2008.  Likely to have been written during the preceding few months.

The rules are there for a reason.  Can you name any other books written by ex cops about European cases they failed to solve and where the suspects they accuse of having committed the crime did not even reach the "charging" stage?



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 05, 2015, 01:06:10 PM
I recall reading in the files (somewhere) that roadworks were uncovered and searched and no trace of a body was found.

Besides, Kate firmly squashed woke and wandered ...

'kate firmly squashed' ?

She wasn't there when Madeleine disappeared, was she ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 01:06:50 PM
Who knows. Obviously before the 28th July 2008.  Likely to have been written during the preceding few months.

The rules are there for a reason.  Can you name any other books written by ex cops about European cases they failed to solve and where the suspects they accuse of having committed the crime did not even reach the "charging" stage?
You would need to compare with other cases where the SIO was forced out at a critical point in the investigation.
Mr Amaral had just received the DCCB report and was suddenly removed before he had a chance to act on it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 05, 2015, 01:10:34 PM
There is absolutely no doubt that Goncalo Amaral enjoyed a celebrity lifestyle and income directly as a result of his involvement with Madeleine McCann's case.

There was precedent for former police officer friends to write about cases of missing children and do very well financially as a result.

In Cristovao's writings about Madeleine ... he was at pains to introduce fictional detectives which apparently made his book an ordinary whodunnit ... Mr Amaral did not even pay lip service to anything other than his certainties being the whole truth.

Even if he is allowed to appeal, which we should hear about pretty soon ... he is going to have to think about getting himself a real job to pay his way ... as his career using Madeleine McCann as a cash cow and her parents as punch bags would be in my opinion ... at an end.

'celebrity lifestyle' for Amaral ???

On what basis do you say that ?

Now that can certainly be applied to the mccanns in the first few years after Madeleine's disappearance.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 05, 2015, 01:21:00 PM


Do I take it that you see the McCanns attempt to enforce their legitimate legal rights through the Portuguese courts as attempts to  "destroy him"?  How very melodramatic.

Who or what forced him (having failed to bring a prosecution) to write a book and make a documentary accusing two grieving parents of crimes, and attempting to damage their reputations.

Face facts - he saw an opportunity to get rich on the back of a missing child - he lost. Tough.

I take it you are happy to have a bent, greedy thuggish ex cop as your role model?  Happy days.

Gosh! was he a member of that secret society too?  Now they really were something else.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 02:22:38 PM
Gosh! was he a member of that secret society too?  Now they really were something else.
"thuggish" is presumably referring to the supposed letter?
The person supposed to have typed the letter has clearly stated she did not.
IMO this letter was probably produced like this: surveille, tap, bug, then embellish true calls and movements with required lies, and finally type it so only the signature needs forging. IMO.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 05, 2015, 02:28:13 PM
Exactly - think how happy he might have been to have never heard of the McCanns - like many others of us, actually.
We would all be happier if we'd never heard of Amaral and the McCanns for sure, because that would mean a little girl never went missing.  Amaral used her to make a name for himself, if his life is a misery subsequently then he only has his own greed and lack of moral judgement to blame.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 03:01:30 PM
We would all be happier if we'd never heard of Amaral and the McCanns for sure, because that would mean a little girl never went missing.  Amaral used her to make a name for himself, if his life is a misery subsequently then he only has his own greed and lack of moral judgement to blame.
The irony is if Brit police including the Met glance through forums on this case they will see desperate attempts to discredit an investigation which they the Brit police were an important and essential part of.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 05, 2015, 03:09:55 PM
The irony is if Brit police including the Met glance through forums on this case they will see desperate attempts to discredit an investigation which they the Brit police were an important and essential part of.

But only the "Woolly-Back" element. The real police are now looking at it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 05, 2015, 03:16:12 PM
The irony is if Brit police including the Met glance through forums on this case they will see desperate attempts to discredit an investigation which they the Brit police were an important and essential part of.

I am puzzled, Pegasus.

Do you happen to be reading this forum in a mirror?  Because the only people seeming to be desperate to discredit the investigation are those of the "anti" persuasion, here and elsewhere.

Among those on forum who do not hate the mccanns and constantly wish them ill, I cannot see anything but a broad welcome for the renewed police investigation.

Strange.   
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 05, 2015, 03:20:52 PM
I think you misunderstood the post. The investigation continually being discredited is the original one, in which UK police participated.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 05, 2015, 03:25:49 PM
I think you misunderstood the post. The investigation continually being discredited is the original one, in which UK police participated.

I expect there are policemen on the net. They found the gofundme site apparently.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 05, 2015, 03:40:11 PM
I think you misunderstood the post. The investigation continually being discredited is the original one, in which UK police participated.

The investigation is not being discredited - just Amarals interpretation and subsequent actions.

No problem with the FSS, or Grime, or Harrison, Or Pryor. 

Do have a problem with some of the PJs list of questions, which were specifically lying about the evidence they claimed to have.  That was stupid. 

Otherwise, investigation was what it was - and led the police up the wrong path.  Only Amaral found a pot of gold at the end of it. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 05, 2015, 03:54:58 PM
The investigation is not being discredited - just Amarals interpretation and subsequent actions.

No problem with the FSS, or Grime, or Harrison, Or Pryor. 

Do have a problem with some of the PJs list of questions, which were specifically lying about the evidence they claimed to have.  That was stupid. 

Otherwise, investigation was what it was - and led the police up the wrong path.  Only Amaral found a pot of gold at the end of it.

A sequestered pot of gold! Well that which isn't secreted away in a secret place.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 05, 2015, 04:02:30 PM
I think you misunderstood the post. The investigation continually being discredited is the original one, in which UK police participated.
They may have participated but there is no evidence that they shared amaral's views..in fact the archiving report didn't share amaral's views
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 04:32:19 PM
They may have participated but there is no evidence that they shared amaral's views..in fact the archiving report didn't share amaral's views
Would you accept evidence from the files?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on June 05, 2015, 04:33:33 PM
'celebrity lifestyle' for Amaral ???

On what basis do you say that ?

Now that can certainly be applied to the mccanns in the first few years after Madeleine's disappearance.

Did you miss the article where it was said Amaral bought a flashy car a gold earring and eager fans awaited him outside court.    He charged an enormous amount of money for interviews etc.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 05, 2015, 04:36:35 PM
I think you misunderstood the post. The investigation continually being discredited is the original one, in which UK police participated.

From the shelved investigation, Mark Harrison's report bears particularly close scrutiny, and especially the reality, distinct from Amaral's (badly skewed!) misinterpretation of it ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 05, 2015, 04:37:01 PM
Would you accept evidence from the files?

let's see it
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 05, 2015, 04:44:41 PM
From the shelved investigation, Mark Harrison's report bears particularly close scrutiny, and especially the reality, distinct from Amaral's (badly skewed!) misinterpretation of it ....

When has accidental death in the apartment been disproved ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 04:47:45 PM
I am puzzled, Pegasus.

Do you happen to be reading this forum in a mirror?  Because the only people seeming to be desperate to discredit the investigation are those of the "anti" persuasion, here and elsewhere.

Among those on forum who do not hate the mccanns and constantly wish them ill, I cannot see anything but a broad welcome for the renewed police investigation.

Strange.   
I was referring to the PJ investigation from 4th May to 2nd Oct 2007 and the numerous Brit police who were part of it. And the irony that peeps who criticise Mr Amaral's investigation are criticising the good Brit police who worked hard with Mr Amaral. Sorry I should have made it clearer that the Met assisted Mr Amaral by arranging for experts to help him. BTW I am on the side of all 3 investigations (Amaral PJ, current PJ, current SY).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 05, 2015, 04:49:04 PM
When has accidental death in the apartment been disproved ?

The great thing about disembodied theories is that anyone can pluck them out of thin air and they can't be disproved.

Key point is that there is not a shred of evidence to sustain such a supposition.

That's all it is, a supposition ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 05, 2015, 04:49:32 PM
When has accidental death in the apartment been disproved ?

Working on the premise that the nature of the crime if any is unknown one could deduce that nothing is proven or disproven, other than a child vanished sometime on May 3rd 2007.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 05, 2015, 04:59:51 PM
The great thing about disembodied theories is that anyone can pluck them out of thin air and they can't be disproved.

Key point is that there is not a shred of evidence to sustain such a supposition.

That's all it is, a supposition ....

So what the hell is the abduction ?

Not one shred of evidence, yet purported as fact by the mccanns.

There is a word to describe that, three letters beginning with an 'L'.

As to accidental death, there is circumstantial evidenceevidence, hence mccanns attempt to bring it up in the trial.

Didn't work, did it.😩😀😀
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 05, 2015, 05:05:36 PM
So what the hell is the abduction ?

Not one shred of evidence, yet purported as fact by the mccanns.

There is a word to describe that, three letters beginning with an 'L'.

As to accidental death, there is circumstantial evidenceevidence, hence mccanns attempt to bring it up in the trial.

Didn't work, did it.😩😀😀

It's the only alternative explanation of Madeleine's disappearance ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 05, 2015, 05:14:12 PM
It's the only alternative explanation of Madeleine's disappearance ....

Abduction certainly isn't.

Unless of course you are a mccann or one of their supporters.

Since without abduction, what are you left with ? 👇
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 05, 2015, 05:42:29 PM
Abduction certainly isn't.

Unless of course you are a mccann or one of their supporters.

Since without abduction, what are you left with ? 👇

It's not a question of what anyone's left with.

It's a question of what happened to Madeleine.

The present Portguese/Anglo investigation is investigating that she was abducted.

The first enquiry reached all the wrong conclusions.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 05, 2015, 05:46:13 PM


Well that is the end of the working week ... wonder if Monday will be the day for news of the appeal ... or will we be left biting our fingernails for some time to come?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 05, 2015, 05:46:34 PM
It's not a question of what anyone's left with.

It's a question of what happened to Madeleine.

The present Portguese/Anglo investigation is investigating that she was abducted.

The first enquiry reached all the wrong conclusions.

Wrong.

It hasn't been established how she disappeared.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 05, 2015, 05:51:40 PM
I was referring to the PJ investigation from 4th May to 2nd Oct 2007 and the numerous Brit police who were part of it. And the irony that peeps who criticise Mr Amaral's investigation are criticising the good Brit police who worked hard with Mr Amaral. Sorry I should have made it clearer that the Met assisted Mr Amaral by arranging for experts to help him. BTW I am on the side of all 3 investigations (Amaral PJ, current PJ, current SY).

the UK police assisted the PJ...There is no evidence they agreed with the conclusions of amaral
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 05, 2015, 05:53:40 PM
Working on the premise that the nature of the crime if any is unknown one could deduce that nothing is proven or disproven, other than a child vanished sometime on May 3rd 2007.

proof is a relative word...absolute...beyond reasonable doubt...balance of probabilities...so it is possible that abduction has been proved
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 05, 2015, 05:55:41 PM
So, I guess Ammy has left it to the last possible day to lodge his appeal then.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 05, 2015, 06:20:27 PM
Wrong.

It hasn't been established how she disappeared.


Do keep up with reality, ferryman.

Scotland Yard detectives released a picture of what Madeleine McCann may look like today as they said they had uncovered new information to suggest she could be alive and living with her abductor.

The senior officer leading an investigative review into the disappearance of Madeleine five years ago is calling on Portuguese police to reopen their inquiry into the case.

Releasing an age-enhanced image of Madeleine – as she nears her ninth birthday on 12 May – Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood, of Scotland Yard's homicide and serious crime command, said: "We genuinely believe there's a possibility that she is alive. I want to make a direct appeal. If you know where Madeleine McCann is or if you have any direct information or evidence about what happened to her, then please make contact."

Redwood and his 37-strong team have identified 195 missed investigative opportunities in the 40,000 pieces of evidence they have examined from the Portuguese inquiry, the family's home force in Leicestershire, and the information gleaned by a team of private detectives hired by the McCann family since Madeleine went missing, aged three, from the resort of Praia de Luz on 3 May 2007.

"We are in a unique position seeking to draw together the three key strands of information about her disappearance," said Redwood.

He unequivocally dismissed the conspiracy theory – promoted by the original Portuguese lead detective Goncalo Amaral – that Madeleine's parents had anything to do with her disappearance.

He said detectives believe Madeleine was abducted in "a criminal act by a stranger".



Madeleine's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, worked closely with the Met to produce the new image of their daughter.

"Kate says she can see Madeleine's brother and sister Sean and Amelie in it as well as something of herself," said the family's spokesman, Clarence Mitchell. She and Gerry feel very positive and they hope it leads to the breakthrough they have been waiting for."

Redwood's team is sifting page by page through 100,000 documents within the 40,000 pieces of evidence, and are a quarter of the way through the exercise. They are working closely with a team of Portuguese detectives and liaising with law enforcement agencies across Europe and the world when necessary.

They are developing what they believe is "genuinely new information" in the hunt for the child. It is understood, though, that this is not based on any new possible sightings. The team is also pursuing the line of inquiry that after five years Madeleine might be dead.

It is understood that key areas being investigated by Scotland Yard – which the Portuguese police failed to pursue – include analysis of a huge amount of mobile phone cell site evidence that was gathered but never analysed. That evidence could help to trace any suspects who were around the resort.

They are also attempting for the first time to contact all the holidaymakers who were staying around the area of the Mark Warner Ocean club complex between 28 April and 3 May 2007, when Madeleine disappeared from her room while her parents were eating dinner with friends at a nearby tapas bar.

Officers are also focusing on any men in the area with criminal convictions that might indicate they are a danger to children, and investigating the backgrounds of resort staff, including examining whether any had suffered the loss of a child.

Commander Simon Foy, Scotland Yard's head of homicide command, said they would not stop until they discovered what had happened to Madeleine. The review inquiry – which has cost £2m to date – began after the McCanns appealed last year to David Cameron for Scotland Yard to investigate the case.

There are examples of children who have been abducted only to be found alive years later: Jaycee Lee Dugard was found alive 18 years after being snatched at the age of 11 from a bus stop in California; the Austrian schoolgirl Natascha Kampusch was found in 2006, eight years after being abducted aged 10; and Shawn Hornbeck, who disappeared aged 12 in 2002, was found four years later.

The decision on whether to reopen the inquiry in Portugal is in the hands of the country's attorney general. He has said he will only reopen the investigation if "new, serious and relevant evidence emerges". He was not available for comment.

Redwood said the police review team in Portugal were keen for this to happen. "[They] want to reopen the case … They are a new group of investigators and they are completely engaged and totally committed."

Jim Gamble, former head of the UK's Child Exploitation and Online Protection unit, said the hunt for Madeleine had now been reignited. "The person who's done it knows they have done it," said Gamble. "They will be paranoid, and it is likely that someone close to them will see that paranoia, or that as the pressure builds someone close to them who knows they have done it, and who is no longer a friend, might come forward.

"One thing is sure: the person who did this will be watching and listening."

Potential witnesses are urged to call 0800 096 1011 within the UK or +44 207 1580 126 from outside. Crimestoppers can be contacted anonymously on 0800 555 111.


http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/apr/25/madeleine-mccann-yard-case
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 06:26:54 PM
They may have participated but there is no evidence that they shared amaral's views..in fact the archiving report didn't share amaral's views
Provided to Mr Amaral by a British expert from the MCIU (possibly the Met?), I removed names.

"Conclusion
In the confusion following the disappearance of Madeleine it would be possible that one of the men or ---  'escaped' to join in the searches again later.
Analyst ---- ---
DCIU"
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 05, 2015, 06:34:53 PM
Provided to Mr Amaral by a British expert from the DCIU (possibly the Met?), I removed names.

"Conclusion
In the confusion following the disappearance of Madeleine it would be possible that one of the men or ---  'escaped' to join in the searches again later.
Analyst ---- ---
DCIU"

so is amaral...the proven liar...the source for this
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 06:53:38 PM
so is amaral...the proven liar...the source for this
It's by the MCIU who are Brits and it's in the files
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 05, 2015, 07:03:31 PM
It's by the DCIU who are Brits and it's in the files

where's the link..it doesn't make any real sense but may do in it's context...link please
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 05, 2015, 07:13:28 PM
proof is a relative word...absolute...beyond reasonable doubt...balance of probabilities...so it is possible that abduction has been proved

When are any of you going to come to the realisation that Gonçalo Amaral did not carry out the investigation all by himself? It was not a one man team. All of your arguments of misunderstanding the evidence, etc. do not hold water as long as you continue to assert that Gonçalo Amaral made all of the decisions.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 05, 2015, 07:16:26 PM
When are any of you going to come to the realisation that Gonçalo Amaral did not carry out the investigation all by himself? It was not a one man team. All of your arguments of misunderstanding the evidence, etc. do not hold water as long as you continue to assert that Gonçalo Amaral made all of the decisions.
Amaral wrote the book...It accepted by all sensible people...both sceptics and supporters that amaral misunderstood the evidence...no doubt others in the PJ misunderstood it as well
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 05, 2015, 07:21:27 PM
When are any of you going to come to the realisation that Gonçalo Amaral did not carry out the investigation all by himself? It was not a one man team. All of your arguments of misunderstanding the evidence, etc. do not hold water as long as you continue to assert that Gonçalo Amaral made all of the decisions.

Who, aside from Amaral in his book, is responsible for the calumny of misrepresentation of what Harrison found and recommended in his reports?

Come to think of it, answering my own question:

Amaral in his video, silly ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 07:32:21 PM
It's by the DCIU who are Brits and it's in the files
@dave1 Sorry didn't note link but source is apenso 2 rel sep 07 p14 last para
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 05, 2015, 07:47:08 PM
@dave1 Sorry didn't note link but source is apenso 2 rel sep 07 p14 last para

Do you consider that the conclusion was part of the original analysis or added afterwards by another party?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 08:00:14 PM
If you don't realise how far out your assertions are then you cannot possibly be taken seiously
I disagree with much of his theory but object to the way he is attacked.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 08:07:44 PM
Do you consider that the conclusion was part of the original analysis or added afterwards by another party?
apenso 2 rel sep 07 p14 last para
Text light and dark is common on black white photocopies
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 05, 2015, 08:24:41 PM
apenso 2 rel sep 07 p14 last para
Text light and dark is common on black white photocopies

Yes, I was looking at the original Portuguese copy, which is a summary of a longer report.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 05, 2015, 08:50:21 PM
I disagree with much of his theory but object to the way he is attacked.
I object to the way the McCanns are attacked...amaral MUST realise now that his claims are not supported by evidence as he claimed...he should admit this
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 05, 2015, 08:51:57 PM
apenso 2 rel sep 07 p14 last para
Text light and dark is common on black white photocopies

so this claim may well be a misrepresentation  perhaps misty could supply the link...is there a translation
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 05, 2015, 09:03:38 PM
so this claim may well be a misrepresentation  perhaps misty could supply the link...is there a translation

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BRIGADE-OF-INFORMATION.htm
*snip*
The men's movements, however, are more difficult to pinpoint.

 Gerald was seen and spoken to by Neil Berry and Raj Malu. They heard him calling for Madeleine when they were sitting on Neil's balcony, not far from the McCann's apartment. They both went down to talk to Gerald and helped in the search.

 Both David Payne and Matthew Oldfield were seen by Emma Knights when she was on her way to the beach, the search area to which she was assigned by Lyndsey Johnson (child care director and search coordinator).

 At about 01.00 Matthew was with John Hill (resort manager) when they knocked on Jeremy Wilkins's door to ask if he had seen anything.

 At about 23.30 a white fair haired man aged about 30, one of the friends of the McCann group was seen by Valerie Kerr    and her family when he asked them if they had seen Madeleine. They were near to the chapel. Valerie and Laura returned to their apartment, changed clothes and went to help with the search.


 Conclusion

 In the confusion following the disappearance of Madeleine it would be possible that one of the men or Fiona Payne 'escaped' to join in the searches again later.


Analyst 7792 Eaton

====================================================

You will have to look at the original Portuguese translation to see the differing print density.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 09:08:02 PM
so this claim may well be a misrepresentation  perhaps misty could supply the link...is there a translation
That is a Brit police document probably by the Met and you seem to be claiming it may well be a misrepresentation?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 05, 2015, 09:09:54 PM
That is a Brit police document probably by the Met and you seem to be claiming it may well be a misrepresentation?

First  ..I haven't seen the original..


secondly...what is it supposed to mean..

In the confusion following the disappearance of Madeleine it would be possible that one of the men or Fiona Payne 'escaped' to join in the searches again later.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 05, 2015, 09:19:28 PM
That is a Brit police document probably by the Met and you seem to be claiming it may well be a misrepresentation?

Is this a document that you think shows that the UK police suspected the McCanns..
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 05, 2015, 09:29:39 PM
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BRIGADE-OF-INFORMATION.htm
*snip*
The men's movements, however, are more difficult to pinpoint.

 Gerald was seen and spoken to by Neil Berry and Raj Malu. They heard him calling for Madeleine when they were sitting on Neil's balcony, not far from the McCann's apartment. They both went down to talk to Gerald and helped in the search.

 Both David Payne and Matthew Oldfield were seen by Emma Knights when she was on her way to the beach, the search area to which she was assigned by Lyndsey Johnson (child care director and search coordinator).

 At about 01.00 Matthew was with John Hill (resort manager) when they knocked on Jeremy Wilkins's door to ask if he had seen anything.

 At about 23.30 a white fair haired man aged about 30, one of the friends of the McCann group was seen by Valerie Kerr    and her family when he asked them if they had seen Madeleine. They were near to the chapel. Valerie and Laura returned to their apartment, changed clothes and went to help with the search.


 Conclusion

 In the confusion following the disappearance of Madeleine it would be possible that one of the men or Fiona Payne 'escaped' to join in the searches again later.


Analyst 7792 Eaton

====================================================

You will have to look at the original Portuguese translation to see the differing print density.

Attached ...
the 'conclusion' does not match the body of the document.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 09:37:40 PM
It's a british police document.
IMO it's one of the sources which was used to develop one part of a theory which was later repeated in a book.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 05, 2015, 09:43:19 PM
It's a british police document.
IMO it's one of the sources which was used to develop one part of a theory which was later repeated in a book.

if you think this conclusion supports amarals book then I think you are seriously mistaken
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 05, 2015, 09:48:29 PM
That is a Brit police document probably by the Met and you seem to be claiming it may well be a misrepresentation?

could you tell me what you think this very poor document...we don't have the English original...actually means
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 09:52:42 PM
How does anyone manage to look at a common feature of photocopy black white machine, and distort it into fake British police document forged by Mr Amaral using a false name Sra Comido and cleverly misspelling the translation to look english?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 05, 2015, 09:54:22 PM
How does anyone manage to look at a common feature of photocopy black white machine, and distort it into fake British police document forged by Mr Amaral using a false name Sra Comido and cleverly misspelling the translation to look english?

I will ask again..what do you think it means and how does it prove the UK police supported amarals theory ..it doesn't and you are totally mistaken
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 05, 2015, 10:11:04 PM
02-09-OUTROS APENSOS II  (FILE 09) pages 01 to 14

TRANSLATION BY INES
 



 OApenso_2_Rel_sep_07_Page_01
 
 OApenso_2_Rel_sep_07_Page_02
 
 OApenso_2_Rel_sep_07_Page_03
 
 OApenso_2_Rel_sep_07_Page_04
 
 OApenso_2_Rel_sep_07_Page_05
 
 OApenso_2_Rel_sep_07_Page_06
 
 OApenso_2_Rel_sep_07_Page_07
 
 OApenso_2_Rel_sep_07_Page_08
 
 OApenso_2_Rel_sep_07_Page_09
 
 OApenso_2_Rel_sep_07_Page_10
 
 OApenso_2_Rel_sep_07_Page_11
 
 OApenso_2_Rel_sep_07_Page_12
 
 OApenso_2_Rel_sep_07_Page_13
 
 OApenso_2_Rel_sep_07_Page_14
 
Reports from the Brigade for Information Analysis Sep 2007
 No page numbers written on files.

 I have done a summarised translation of a  report compiled by the Brigade of Information Analysis in September 2007 for the PJ
(the report consists of 

14 pages).

 This report was based upon a timeline analysis (the result of statements made to the PJ and to Control Risk by 5 elements of the T9, by the client support service staff from Mark Warner and from other statements, a text having been compiled for an English analyst) and various chronogrammes of communications elaborated and presented to the British police who were in Portugal in cooperation with the PJ
 
                              ===============================

It is a SUMMARISED TRANSLATION.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 10:30:29 PM
I will ask again..what do you think it means and how does it prove the UK police supported amarals theory ..it doesn't and you are totally mistaken
This MCIU document is by one of the many british police experts who were part of the investigation, it's a document that was read.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 05, 2015, 10:31:13 PM
So, I guess Ammy has left it to the last possible day to lodge his appeal then.

In the absence of anything to give the current status:
He has lodged the papers and dosh already.
He will do it on Monday.
He has successfully applied for an extension to time.
He isn't going to bother.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 05, 2015, 10:39:10 PM
In the absence of anything to give the current status:
He has lodged the papers and dosh already.
He will do it on Monday.
He has successfully applied for an extension to time.
He isn't going to bother.
having come out all guns blazing.....he's gone ever so quiet...read into that what you will
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 05, 2015, 10:43:57 PM
In the absence of anything to give the current status:
He has lodged the papers and dosh already.
He will do it on monday.
He has successfully applied for an extension to time.
He isn't going to bother.
I'm pretty confident that the moment Ammy lodges an appeal it will be all over the internet before you can say "tucking fosser".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 05, 2015, 10:46:23 PM
I'm pretty confident that the moment Ammy lodges an appeal it will be all over the internet before you can say "tucking fosser".
as long as none of his legal team are struck down with ebola
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 11:07:17 PM
as long as none of his legal team are struck down with ebola
who are his lawyers?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 05, 2015, 11:10:03 PM
who are his lawyers?

Must be pretty expensive, whoever they are. Queen Isabelle of Portugal wants to raise £100,000 for him now.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 11:17:45 PM
as long as none of his legal team are struck down with ebola
or an upset tummy
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 05, 2015, 11:27:07 PM
having come out all guns blazing.....he's gone ever so quiet...read into that what you will

Nothing; he said he would appeal either he will or he won't. We will find out eventually.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 05, 2015, 11:31:24 PM
I'm pretty confident that the moment Ammy lodges an appeal it will be all over the internet before you can say "tucking fosser".

You may be right and you may be wrong; but you know you're gonna miss me when I'm gone, down the Rock Island Line.......................
I wouldn't say "tucking fosser". I can swear properly  8(>((
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 05, 2015, 11:35:52 PM
You may be right and you may be wrong; but you know you're gonna miss me when I'm gone, down the Rock Island Line.......................
I wouldn't say "tucking fosser". I can swear properly  8(>((
What a clever little boy you are.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 05, 2015, 11:39:53 PM
who are his lawyers?
...please
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 06, 2015, 12:13:53 AM
...please


     I think it may be this guy,Miguel Cruz Rodrigues ... well it was in January this year ... but who knows?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 06, 2015, 12:33:33 AM
...please

Perhaps Leanne could enlighten us regarding that. The fund is, after all, transparent.
Any volunteers to PM her?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on June 06, 2015, 12:35:26 AM

     I think it may be this guy,Miguel Cruz Rodrigues ... well it was in January this year ... but who knows?

Deleted
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 06, 2015, 12:38:42 AM
@Brietta thankyou
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 06, 2015, 08:32:28 AM
Nothing; he said he would appeal either he will or he won't. We will find out eventually.

Nothing?

On a forum where every word spoken by the McCanns ...every action however slight...draws an inference...your response to my post is...nothing..

So what can we read into that re you....the answer is not...nothing

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2015, 10:00:21 AM
So the long and the short is that we still don't have confirmation that Amaral will (be allowed to!) appeal, making something of a mockery of the title of this thread?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 06, 2015, 10:03:09 AM
So the long and the short is that we still don't have confirmation that Amaral will (be allowed to!) appeal, making something of a mockery of the title of this thread?

ALL GOOD THINGS COME TO THOSE WHO WAIT. 8(*(
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2015, 10:09:49 AM
ALL GOOD THINGS COME TO THOSE WHO WAIT. 8(*(

I suspect the confusion is between appeal and meta-appeal.

Amaral has an automatic right to a meta-appeal which is an appeal for the right to take the verdict of the court of first instance up to the next rung.

That will be heard and either accepted or rejected.

If it is rejected, the McCanns will be outright winners at first instance.

If it is accepted, then everything goes into limbo for however long until a date is set for Amaral's appeal to be heard.

Is that how it works?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 06, 2015, 10:11:55 AM
I object to the way the McCanns are attacked...amaral MUST realise now that his claims are not supported by evidence as he claimed...he should admit this

BTW, the McCanns' claims of an abduction are supported by what evidence?

If the McCanns are attacked, they have no one to blame but themselves for being negligent with their children and uncooperative with the investigation. Explain to me why would the parents take weeks to organise a balloon in memory of their daughter's disappearance when she could have turned up at anytime?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2015, 10:15:56 AM
BTW, the McCanns' claims of an abduction are supported by what evidence?

If the McCanns are attacked, they have no one to blame but themselves for being negligent with their children and uncooperative with the investigation. Explain to me why would the parents take weeks to organise a balloon in memory of their daughter's disappearance when she could have turned up at anytime?

The absence of evidence of anything else.

Pure and simple.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 06, 2015, 10:18:01 AM
I suspect the confusion is between appeal and meta-appeal.

Amaral has an automatic right to a meta-appeal which is an appeal for the right to take the verdict of the court of first instance up to the next rung.

That will be heard and either accepted or rejected.

If it is rejected, the McCanns will be outright winners at first instance.

If it is accepted, then everything goes into limbo for however long until a date is set for Amaral's appeal to be heard.

Is that how it works?

No, that is not how it works! Although this has been explained I don't know how many times, you still don't seem to understand. I will try to explain one last time:

Gonçalo Amaral will submit his appeal to the judge of the first instance. She will take into consideration his arguments. If she does agree with his arguments, she can then change her verdict (I don't think that this happens very often though). If she does not accept them, her judgement remains. The story does not stop here, do you understand? The judge then sends the appeal to the higher court, the Tribunal da Relação.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 06, 2015, 10:21:05 AM
The absence of evidence of anything else.

Pure and simple.

but there is absolutely no evidence of abduction. 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2015, 10:29:53 AM
I suspect the confusion is between appeal and meta-appeal.

Amaral has an automatic right to a meta-appeal which is an appeal for the right to take the verdict of the court of first instance up to the next rung.

That will be heard and either accepted or rejected.

If it is rejected, the McCanns will be outright winners at first instance.

If it is accepted, then everything goes into limbo for however long until a date is set for Amaral's appeal to be heard.

Is that how it works?

Yes, more or less, but there's more to the process than that. From memory:

It's not clear how long the judge has to check through the appeal submission, but if clarification is required the appellant has 5 days to rectify / expand on the points.

If proof of payment isn't received, there's a reminder process for that.

The respondents have the same time limit as the appellant to submit their response. Although not clear in the wording, this deadline presumably starts once they have received a copy of the appeal. If the appellant has to present a rectification, then the respondents also have 5 days to check through the revised version.

(We're assuming a deadline of 30 days, but it can be 40 days if if involves material recorded or presented during the trial. If there is a transcript of the various testimonies, I don't see the need for locating precise moments in the videos - that would seem more logical in e.g., disputed cctv evidence of a car accident.)

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2015, 10:44:39 AM
Thinking about that...
If the judge has to wait for all the paperwork (appellant and respondent) before submitting it to the appeals court, then it will be early-ish July before it is officially submitted, and if it is the appeals court that has to book dates for the hearing, I would find it unlikely to take place until after the summer recess.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 06, 2015, 11:12:38 AM
Nothing?

On a forum where every word spoken by the McCanns ...every action however slight...draws an inference...your response to my post is...nothing..

So what can we read into that re you....the answer is not...nothing

Read into it what you like squire.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2015, 11:18:30 AM
Question:

How does the court fee system work? What does it cover and how is it estimated, particularly in a civil appeal such as this one?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2015, 11:28:12 AM
No, that is not how it works! Although this has been explained I don't know how many times, you still don't seem to understand. I will try to explain one last time:

Gonçalo Amaral will submit his appeal to the judge of the first instance. She will take into consideration his arguments. If she does agree with his arguments, she can then change her verdict (I don't think that this happens very often though). If she does not accept them, her judgement remains. The story does not stop here, do you understand? The judge then sends the appeal to the higher court, the Tribunal da Relação.


From what I've been able to gather, there are - limited - grounds on which she could dismiss one, but otherwise the process moves up (with a non-binding legal opinion), so I have no problem in understanding that.

However, and you may have missed it, Montclair, but I had asked you where you found the idea that the a quo judge can modify her verdict.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 06, 2015, 11:30:18 AM
Thinking about that...
If the judge has to wait for all the paperwork (appellant and respondent) before submitting it to the appeals court, then it will be early-ish July before it is officially submitted, and if it is the appeals court that has to book dates for the hearing, I would find it unlikely to take place until after the summer recess.

Going on past history I think Mr Amaral's present legal team will string out the process for as long as that can be done, then no doubt their successors will follow suit.
I don't think he was ever in any great hurry to have this court case resolved ... and with the recent judgement I am beginning to see why that was ... he has gone through some of the best legal minds in Portugal who perhaps gave him advice not to his liking.    He's in no hurry as long as loyal supporters are picking up his tabs.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2015, 11:34:41 AM

From what I've been able to gather, there are - limited - grounds on which she could dismiss one, but otherwise the process moves up (with a non-binding legal opinion), so I have no problem in understanding that.

However, and you may have missed it, Montclair, but I had asked you where you found the idea that the a quo judge can modify her verdict.

I think it's much more than just a rubber-stamping exercise.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2015, 12:25:11 PM
Going on past history I think Mr Amaral's present legal team will string out the process for as long as that can be done, then no doubt their successors will follow suit.
I don't think he was ever in any great hurry to have this court case resolved ... and with the recent judgement I am beginning to see why that was ... he has gone through some of the best legal minds in Portugal who perhaps gave him advice not to his liking.    He's in no hurry as long as loyal supporters are picking up his tabs.

This could go on for a year or so more.

If donations continue at the same rate, £300k by this time next year might be feasible. Some regular donors may find that a £5 donation once or more per week for a year or more isn't sustainable, but they may recruit others...

Anything over and above whatever expenses are deemed to be acceptable in the view of those who adminster the solidarity fund(s) will go to a charity of his choice.

Interestingly, he has stated that he'd like to launch an association for disadvantaged youth...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 06, 2015, 12:59:03 PM
Read into it what you like squire.

That's what everyone on the forum does
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 06, 2015, 02:23:42 PM
Is there any fund whose object is to help pay legal expenditure to oppose Mr Amaral's appeal?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 06, 2015, 02:36:26 PM
Going on past history I think Mr Amaral's present legal team will string out the process for as long as that can be done, then no doubt their successors will follow suit.
I don't think he was ever in any great hurry to have this court case resolved ... and with the recent judgement I am beginning to see why that was ... he has gone through some of the best legal minds in Portugal who perhaps gave him advice not to his liking.    He's in no hurry as long as loyal supporters are picking up his tabs.

He will have very limited scope for that.  The courts are well aware of the tactic of the losing party trying to spin things out as long as possible.

Justice delayed is justice denied, and if he tries something like a last minute does of bird flu, he will find judgement finalised and executed, and the sequestered funds distributed with costs crystallised.

He has the money for advice and to lodge an appeal on time, so he has absolutely no reason not to.     
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 06, 2015, 02:39:14 PM
...If donations continue at the same rate ...
Most of the Brit Public don't know about this fund yet. What will happen to the donation rate when the major UK TV stations and newspapers all run stories about the 25K target being reached so quickly.
(edited)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 06, 2015, 03:11:10 PM
Most of the Brit Public don't know about this fund yet. What will happen to the donation rate when the major UK TV stations and newspapers all run stories about the 25K target being reached so quickly.
(edited)

Well of course The fund will rocket as the news spreads like wildfire throughout Europe.  "justice for Gonc" will be the rallying cry.  There will street parties in honour of Amaral, where effigies of the evil McCann family will be burned.   Portuguese will become the official language of Europe. 

Or - absolutely nothing at all.

 *&*%£ 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2015, 03:14:19 PM
Most of the Brit Public don't know about this fund yet. What will happen to the donation rate when the major UK TV stations and newspapers all run stories about the 25K target being reached so quickly.
(edited)

What would make this newsworthy for anything other than a few tabloid rags?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 06, 2015, 03:34:56 PM
Most of the Brit Public don't know about this fund yet. What will happen to the donation rate when the major UK TV stations and newspapers all run stories about the 25K target being reached so quickly.
(edited)
It wasn't that big a deal.  How much money was sent in for Madeleine in the first month after she went missing?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on June 06, 2015, 03:45:36 PM
Most of the Brit Public don't know about this fund yet. What will happen to the donation rate when the major UK TV stations and newspapers all run stories about the 25K target being reached so quickly.
(edited)

Well if people want to subscribe to a fund for a convicted criminal, who has additionally threatened people with a "golden bullet" then that's up to them!

Several other choice facts about him that could be mentioned, but I will save them till later.



Seems to me that Amaral has a great big publicity machine backing him

And the propaganda !!   Just WHO is behind all that?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2015, 03:58:29 PM
No, that is not how it works! Although this has been explained I don't know how many times, you still don't seem to understand. I will try to explain one last time:

Gonçalo Amaral will submit his appeal to the judge of the first instance. She will take into consideration his arguments. If she does agree with his arguments, she can then change her verdict (I don't think that this happens very often though). If she does not accept them, her judgement remains. The story does not stop here, do you understand? The judge then sends the appeal to the higher court, the Tribunal da Relação.

I think you need to find it how it works, then offer an explanation (distinct from an "explanation") ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on June 06, 2015, 03:59:11 PM
Back in July of last year Gonçalo stated that he continues to have every confidence in the Portuguese Justice System so with that said I'm sure we will all look forward to reading the appeal documentation in due course.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 06, 2015, 04:28:30 PM
I think you need to find it how it works, then offer an explanation (distinct from an "explanation") ...

As long as the appellant conforms to the formalities, the first instance judge cannot stop it from going to a higher court!!!!!!! What kind of justice is it when the first instance decides the appeal on her judgement and stops the appellant from appealing, especially when there is the amount of € 550.000,00 plus interest at stake. She can't say: I'm going to make you pay a half a million and you cannot appeal. I give up trying to get this into your head.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2015, 04:31:25 PM
As long as the appellant conforms to the formalities, the first instance judge cannot stop it from going to a higher court!!!!!!! What kind of justice is it when the first instance decides the appeal on her judgement and stops the appellant from appealing, especially when there is the amount of € 550.000,00 plus interest at stake. She can't say: I'm going to make you pay a half a million and you cannot appeal. I give up trying to get this into your head.

If there are no grounds of appeal arising from the first judgment, then perfectly executed justice.

I can see why the McCanns might want to appeal the finding that Amaral's book didn't harm the search for Madeleine, but evidently they don't.

Can't think of a single ground of complaint Amaral could raise on points proved.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on June 06, 2015, 04:40:10 PM
As long as the appellant conforms to the formalities, the first instance judge cannot stop it from going to a higher court!!!!!!! What kind of justice is it when the first instance decides the appeal on her judgement and stops the appellant from appealing, especially when there is the amount of € 550.000,00 plus interest at stake. She can't say: I'm going to make you pay a half a million and you cannot appeal. I give up trying to get this into your head.

In the UK a single judge initially decides whether an appeal has merit ( not the trial judge) and if he refuses an appeal it will go to two judges to decide.

If what is being posted is correct in respect of Portugal, allowing the trial judge to decide the merits or otherwise of an appeal seems ludicrous...even bonkers!!   %#&%4%
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2015, 04:51:32 PM
In the UK a single judge initially decides whether an appeal has merit ( not the trial judge) and if he refuses an appeal it will go to two judges to decide.

If what is being posted is correct in respect of Portugal, allowing the trial judge to decide the merits or otherwise of an appeal seems ludicrous...even bonkers!!   %#&%4%

It would seem that appeals are allowed much more often than they are denied.

I think the Portuguese system is much more amenable to allowing appeals than the English, which perhaps is a plus for Amaral.

Still, he will have to find grounds for opposing points proven (from first instance).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2015, 05:06:04 PM
In the UK a single judge initially decides whether an appeal has merit ( not the trial judge) and if he refuses an appeal it will go to two judges to decide.

If what is being posted is correct in respect of Portugal, allowing the trial judge to decide the merits or otherwise of an appeal seems ludicrous...even bonkers!!   %#&%4%

The legislation states the same court... now whether that means just any court of the same instance, any old judge who also happens to hear trials in the same court or the same judge isn't entirely clear.

I already knew that an appeal had to be routed via the a quo court, but I was basing the idea that it may indeed come back to the SAME judge on Montclair's post, who  - I assume - has done some homework on this issue in order to make such categorical assertions:

It is not my interpretation, it is the law here. So if it is different from the way it works in England, so be it.
Let me say this once more. The first instance judge can deny the appeal and not change her verdict, but she is then obliged to send the appeal to the higher court, the Tribunal da Relação. The appeal cannot stop in her lap, that would be a denial of justice.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6269.msg243672#msg243672
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 06, 2015, 05:44:55 PM
Seems to me that Amaral has a great big publicity machine backing him
Would you like a complete list of the various PR companies he uses in the UK and in Portugal?
The list is long, I may have to split it into several posts


 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 06, 2015, 06:11:35 PM
Would you like a complete list of the various PR companies he uses in the UK and in Portugal?
The list is long, I may have to split it into several posts

 8@??)( 8@??)( @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 06, 2015, 06:12:19 PM
Would you like a complete list of the various PR companies he uses in the UK and in Portugal?
The list is long, I may have to split it into several posts
You can start your list with that woman whose TV couch Amaral is often to be found snuggling up on.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 06, 2015, 06:38:23 PM
You can start your list with that woman whose TV couch Amaral is often to be found snuggling up on.

Now I thought that was Gerry's seat after Katie Brand's slip. 8)--))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 06, 2015, 06:50:02 PM
You can start your list with that woman whose TV couch Amaral is often to be found snuggling up on.

Were she a very young woman it would be "Ammy" with an ammy now there's droll.
 8(*(
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2015, 06:53:51 PM
The title of this thread is misleading.

Amaral is in a position to confirm only that he intends to appeal.

It is in the lap of learned Portuguese judges whether he will actually be allowed to.

Perhaps

Perhaps not ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 06, 2015, 07:08:01 PM
Were she a very young woman it would be "Ammy" with an ammy now there's droll.
 8(*(
You're obsessed with the term "ammy" - as I've never left the village I was born in I have no idea what other meaning this word has other than as a term of "endearment" for a bent ex-cop.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 06, 2015, 07:17:06 PM

From what I've been able to gather, there are - limited - grounds on which she could dismiss one, but otherwise the process moves up (with a non-binding legal opinion), so I have no problem in understanding that.

However, and you may have missed it, Montclair, but I had asked you where you found the idea that the a quo judge can modify her verdict.

Sorry not answering but I forgot. It was the lawyer daughter of a a friend of mine who told me that the appeal goes to the quo judge who has the chance to modify her verdict, not that it happens very often. I didn't know that before she told me.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 06, 2015, 07:17:49 PM
You're obsessed with the term "ammy" - as I've never left the village I was born in I have no idea what other meaning this word has other than as a term of "endearment" for a bent ex-cop.

Hardly old stick knowing your track record on here  8(0(*

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 06, 2015, 07:21:10 PM
Sorry not answering but I forgot. It was the lawyer daughter of a a friend of mine who told me that the appeal goes to the quo judge who has the chance to modify her verdict, not that it happens very often. I didn't know that before she told me.
did she also tell you that all questions to suspects have to be approved by the judge
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 06, 2015, 07:26:44 PM
Hardly old stick knowing your track record on here  8(0(*
What are you accusing me of now? 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2015, 08:06:36 PM
Sorry not answering but I forgot. It was the lawyer daughter of a a friend of mine who told me that the appeal goes to the quo judge who has the chance to modify her verdict, not that it happens very often. I didn't know that before she told me.

Thanks for answering, Montclair... but could you ask your friend who is a friend of a lawyer's daughter where that idea came from? I've tried to wade through the relevant Articles, but I'm still none the wiser.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on June 06, 2015, 08:21:00 PM
You can start your list with that woman whose TV couch Amaral is often to be found snuggling up on.
Do you mean Julia Penheiro?  Dear Julia?

http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=JN.Bbr4YsF65EOgYs%2bkJaJamg&w=65&h=105&c=7&rs=1&qlt=90&pid=3.1&rm=2

(http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=JN.Bbr4YsF65EOgYs%2bkJaJamg&w=65&h=105&c=7&rs=1&qlt=90&pid=3.1&rm=2)
She is one of the crowd.  One of the set.

Self satisfied woman IMO
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 06, 2015, 08:30:49 PM
Do you mean Julia Penheiro?  Dear Julia?

http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=JN.Bbr4YsF65EOgYs%2bkJaJamg&w=65&h=105&c=7&rs=1&qlt=90&pid=3.1&rm=2

(http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=JN.Bbr4YsF65EOgYs%2bkJaJamg&w=65&h=105&c=7&rs=1&qlt=90&pid=3.1&rm=2)
She is one of the crowd.  One of the set.

Self satisfied woman IMO

Here we go again.

So who are these PR companies sadie ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 06, 2015, 08:31:50 PM
Thanks for answering, Montclair... but could you ask your friend who is a friend of a lawyer's daughter where that idea came from? I've tried to wade through the relevant Articles, but I'm still none the wiser.

It is the daughter of my friend who is a lawyer, not the daughter of a lawyer.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 06, 2015, 08:33:18 PM
did she also tell you that all questions to suspects have to be approved by the judge

No, she didn't.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2015, 08:50:49 PM
It is the daughter of my friend who is a lawyer, not the daughter of a lawyer.

Ah, ok. But could you ask your friend's daughter then?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2015, 09:01:14 PM
That Amaral and his team have taken it (pretty much) to the wire of the deadline for appeals to submit tends to suggest they are finding it tricky
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 06, 2015, 09:15:23 PM
That Amaral and his team have taken it (pretty much) to the wire of the deadline for appeals to submit tends to suggest they are finding it tricky
Nah, they're just playing games, making the McCanns sweat, just as I predicted they would.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 06, 2015, 09:32:53 PM
Why does it have to be either?
You have until x date to comply.... yeah OK.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2015, 09:56:29 PM
Was the 40-day deadline Monday?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 06, 2015, 10:24:49 PM
Nah, they're just playing games, making the McCanns sweat, just as I predicted they would.

I'm sure the McCanns aren't sweating. Their success in the courts has been legendary - well, those cases which got to court. Tony Bennett - a win. Goncalo Amaral's book banning - lose. Defamation - win......so far. It must be their turn to win on appeal this time?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2015, 10:44:06 PM
I'm sure the McCanns aren't sweating. Their success in the courts has been legendary - well, those cases which got to court. Tony Bennett - a win. Goncalo Amaral's book banning - lose. Defamation - win......so far. It must be their turn to win on appeal this time?

Have a win confirmed on Amaral's appeal, do you mean?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 06, 2015, 11:35:04 PM
I'm sure the McCanns aren't sweating. Their success in the courts has been legendary - well, those cases which got to court. Tony Bennett - a win. Goncalo Amaral's book banning - lose. Defamation - win......so far. It must be their turn to win on appeal this time?
Whether they are sweating or not, it is obviously Gonc's greatest wish to cause as much discomfort to the McCanns as possible, hence leaving it to the very last day to appeal.  The man's a player.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 06, 2015, 11:53:56 PM
Whether they are sweating or not, it is obviously Gonc's greatest wish to cause as much discomfort to the McCanns as possible, hence leaving it to the very last day to appeal.  The man's a player.

Agreed ... I think he is a consummate player ... on this though, I think he has at last overplayed his hand and got the timing all wrong.

Going for an appeal is the last throw of the dice and I think the longer it takes the better pleased he will be.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 07, 2015, 01:31:04 AM
Legal experts is it currently illegal to sell a copy of this book in England?
2nd hand not new, in portugese, and not-for-profit.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 07, 2015, 01:52:00 AM
Its amazing the legal peeps attacking Mr Amaral probably get £40 a hour but their research preperation is not so good IMO anyone on this forum could do better finding differences.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 07, 2015, 08:12:24 AM
Legal experts is it currently illegal to sell a copy of this book in England?
2nd hand not new, in portugese, and not-for-profit.

Perfectly legal to sell (provided it wasn't stolen in the first place).

Why would it not be? 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 07, 2015, 08:13:15 AM
Its amazing the legal peeps attacking Mr Amaral probably get £40 a hour but their research preperation is not so good IMO anyone on this forum could do better finding differences.

Who are these "legal peeps"?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2015, 08:16:15 AM
I'm sure the McCanns aren't sweating. Their success in the courts has been legendary - well, those cases which got to court. Tony Bennett - a win. Goncalo Amaral's book banning - lose. Defamation - win......so far. It must be their turn to win on appeal this time?

Why do you have to turn this thread into another of your personal attacks on the McCanns. Your hatred is so pronounced
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2015, 08:45:38 AM
Why do you have to turn this thread into another of your personal attacks on the McCanns. Your hatred is so pronounced

Just replying to Alfred's post.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 07, 2015, 09:05:08 AM
I'm sure the McCanns aren't sweating. Their success in the courts has been legendary - well, those cases which got to court. Tony Bennett - a win. Goncalo Amaral's book banning - lose. Defamation - win......so far. It must be their turn to win on appeal this time?

The one occasion the McCanns were not represented in court (that they lost)!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 07, 2015, 09:21:01 AM
Another thought that occurs is that with this massive financial support Amaral now enjoys, there will be a huge weight of expectation on him to deliver.

Maybe he will.

But the fund, while ensuring equality of arms, might bring its own pressures.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on June 07, 2015, 09:26:20 AM
I'm sure the McCanns aren't sweating. Their success in the courts has been legendary - well, those cases which got to court. Tony Bennett - a win. Goncalo Amaral's book banning - lose. Defamation - win......so far. It must be their turn to win on appeal this time?

What 'legendary' success are you referring to?   AFAIK they've only had court cases with two people.

And didn't Bennett put himself in court - for contempt?   It was his own choice to break his promises to the court.

(from memory so am happy to be corrected if necessary)







Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 07, 2015, 09:34:38 AM
What 'legendary' success are you referring to?   AFAIK they've only had court cases with two people.

And didn't Bennett put himself in court - for contempt?   It was his own choice to break his promises to the court.

(from memory so am happy to be corrected if necessary)

There also successful against Express, NOTW, Sunday Times etc etc who settled out of court.  No doubt seen as another example of the McCanns flexing their financial muscle against the weak and defenceless.   
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 07, 2015, 09:39:23 AM
The one occasion the McCanns were not represented in court (that they lost)!

The parties are not present in court when the appeals go to the  higher court. AFAIK, the judges study the written appeals and arguments, so it is the same for all.

I do recall that when the book was first banned and the injunction set in place by the McCanns and their lawyers, that this was done in secret. The interested parties only found out about it in the press!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 07, 2015, 10:03:19 AM
The parties are not present in court when the appeals go to the  higher court. AFAIK, the judges study the written appeals and arguments, so it is the same for all.

I do recall that when the book was first banned and the injunction set in place by the McCanns and their lawyers, that this was done in secret. The interested parties only found out about it in the press!

OK ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 07, 2015, 10:04:43 AM
The parties are not present in court when the appeals go to the  higher court. AFAIK, the judges study the written appeals and arguments, so it is the same for all.

I do recall that when the book was first banned and the injunction set in place by the McCanns and their lawyers, that this was done in secret. The interested parties only found out about it in the press!

...And even then they waited until they saw how much money they could make... always eyes on the dollars...
Why not complain to the police as soon as it was realeased? have him charged there and then?

its A L W A Y S about ££££££££££$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 07, 2015, 12:44:22 PM
Who are these "legal peeps"?
I don't know who does research for cases.
Is the case decided on differences between the files and the book/film?
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 07, 2015, 01:18:05 PM
Another thought that occurs is that with this massive financial support Amaral now enjoys, there will be a huge weight of expectation on him to deliver.

Maybe he will.

But the fund, while ensuring equality of arms, might bring its own pressures.
Yes, there is no way Gonc can back out of an appeal now, he might have chosen to play the pity card and cite lack of funds as a reason for not appealing but he now no longer has that option.  Every silver lining has a cloud.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2015, 01:42:41 PM
I don't know who does research for cases.
Is the case decided on differences between the files and the book/film?

No. Two things only.

1. Did Amaral break the rules by using information gathered while case co-cordinator to write his book? The judge says he did because he published his book just three days after the release of the files.
2. Were the McCanns entitled  to the presumption of innocence? The judge said they were entitled to be presumed innocent by Amaral as he is a retired policeman and is as such still bound by the rules applied to those involved in the Judicial process.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 07, 2015, 01:50:24 PM
No. Two things only.

1. Did Amaral break the rules by using information gathered while case co-cordinator to write his book? The judge says he did because he published his book just three days after the release of the files.
2. Were the McCanns entitled  to the presumption of innocence? The judge said they were entitled to be presumed innocent by Amaral as he is a retired policeman and is as such still bound by the rules applied to those involved in the Judicial process.
Makes it hard to see what the grounds for an appeal will be doesn't it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 07, 2015, 01:52:41 PM
Yes, there is no way Gonc can back out of an appeal now, he might have chosen to play the pity card and cite lack of funds as a reason for not appealing but he now no longer has that option.  Every silver lining has a cloud.
Simple answer: The recent GFM appeal was started after the decision to appeal was made.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 07, 2015, 02:01:25 PM
Simple answer: The recent GFM appeal was started after the decision to appeal was made.
So?  He could have cited a lack of funds at any point up until the expiry of the appeal deadline as a get-out.  He can't now!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 07, 2015, 02:06:53 PM
Why was a new fund started (which apparently feeds into the extant one anyway)?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2015, 02:08:12 PM
Makes it hard to see what the grounds for an appeal will be doesn't it?

I'm no legal expert, so my opinion counts for nothing. The questions I have are as follows. As the files had been made public when the book was published is it relevant when he wrote it? Does the right to the presumption of innocence apply to everyone or only to suspects? Are retired policemen still expected to uphold this principle?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2015, 02:09:24 PM
Why was a new fund started (which apparently feeds into the extant one anyway)?

For people who didn't have PayPal, according to Leanne.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 07, 2015, 02:11:47 PM
I'm no legal expert, so my opinion counts for nothing. The questions I have are as follows. As the files had been made public when the book was published is it relevant when he wrote it? Does the right to the presumption of innocence apply to everyone or only to suspects? Are retired policemen still expected to uphold this principle?
The files don't draw the conclusions Amaral draws in his book do they?  The right to the presumption of innocence applies to everyone, but I don't see what difference that makes in this case, and yes, I  believe ex-policemen are expected to uphold this principle, why wouldn't they be?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 07, 2015, 02:14:28 PM
Why was a new fund started (which apparently feeds into the extant one anyway)?

Because The Portuguese weren't interested in helping him?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 07, 2015, 02:15:53 PM
So?  He could have cited a lack of funds at any point up until the expiry of the appeal deadline as a get-out.  He can't now!
He decided to appeal. Translation: he is not looking for a "getout".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 07, 2015, 02:20:37 PM
He decided to appeal. Translation: he is not looking for a "getout".
For all you know his statement about appealing made shortly after the judgement could simply have been an act of bravado, an action that he never intended to pursue, citing a lack of funds as the stumbling block, which is an option no longer available to him. Still, he has nothing to lose, apart from whatever remaining shred of credibility he clings to, and a whole bunch of his fanclub's dosh. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 07, 2015, 02:21:26 PM
Because The Portuguese weren't interested in helping him?

And yet that's where he is supposed to be a national hero?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 07, 2015, 02:22:21 PM
And yet that's where he is supposed to be a national hero?
I'd like to see some evidence of his national hero status.  Has his face appeared on a stamp yet??
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 07, 2015, 02:24:30 PM
I'd like to see some evidence of his national hero status.  Has his face appeared on a stamp yet??

Nope.  But a Stamp might appear on his Face one day.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 07, 2015, 02:26:44 PM
Nope.  But a Stamp might appear on his Face one day.
@)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 07, 2015, 02:32:02 PM
For all you know his statement about appealing made shortly after the judgement could simply have been an act of bravado, an action that he never intended to pursue, citing a lack of funds as the stumbling block, which is an option no longer available to him. Still, he has nothing to lose, apart from whatever remaining shred of credibility he clings to, and a whole bunch of his fanclub's dosh.

Trying to see if from his side, I'd probably attempt to find any vaguely plausible reason to appeal, particularly if my fan club was willing to foot the bill of doing so.

On a tangential issue, was it ever confirmed one way or another whether there was any attempt to settle by either party prior to this outcome (aside from an Amaral-pally tab reporter for TV Mais)?

In the early days he was quite confident that the McCanns would never sue him even though he'd have welcomed it. Something to do with the idea that doing so might reopen the case, and burblings about aces and non-missing pink blankets.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 07, 2015, 03:05:43 PM
Nope.  But a Stamp might appear on his Face one day.

U.S Male by Jerry Reed  8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2015, 03:12:46 PM
Because The Portuguese weren't interested in helping him?

That's quite an interesting point...he seems to have little support in Portugal
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 07, 2015, 03:32:11 PM
I'd like to see some evidence of his national hero status.  Has his face appeared on a stamp yet??
I have some evidence of high respect for him at the top level of a national political party.
And locally by real people in Olhão.
His selection as their candidate by the Partido Social Democrata indicated great respect by them for him.
And his amazing 53% in the pre-election poll shows the huge local public respect for him.
I would like to see him on the UK £1 stamp.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 07, 2015, 03:38:36 PM
I have some evidence of high respect for him at the top level of a national political party.
And locally by real people in Olhão.
His selection as their candidate by the Partido Social Democrata indicated great respect by them for him.
And his amazing 53% in the pre-election poll shows the huge local public respect for him.
I would like to see him on the UK £1 stamp.
@)(++(* 

Well now that we know Gonc is a hugely popular national Portuguese hero it really does make you wonder why there hasn't been a fund of at least double the size of the UK one.  Surely not everyone in Portugal is THAT strapped for a few euros?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 07, 2015, 04:12:07 PM
@)(++(* 

Well now that we know Gonc is a hugely popular national Portuguese hero it really does make you wonder why there hasn't been a fund of at least double the size of the UK one.  Surely not everyone in Portugal is THAT strapped for a few euros?
Thankyou for raising this important issue.
Portugese people can easily donate directly to Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral
http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 07, 2015, 04:15:04 PM
Thankyou for raising this important issue.
Portugese people can easily donate directly to Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral
http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
I'm not sure how many Portuguese people read this forum but I suppose every little helps *pats bum*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 07, 2015, 04:20:29 PM
Thankyou for raising this important issue.
Portugese people can easily donate directly to Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral
http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/

As neither fund is a registered charity, I don't see why anyone of any nationality can't or shouldn't donate to either if they feel so inclined.... But why create a second one? 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 07, 2015, 04:41:03 PM
As neither fund is a registered charity, I don't see why anyone of any nationality can't or shouldn't donate to either if they feel so inclined.... But why create a second one?
There is only one fund for Mr Amaral's legal defence it is Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral.
All donations to the UK gofundme appeal are transferred directly into that fund's bank account.
Totally transparent.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 07, 2015, 04:45:52 PM
There is only one fund for Mr Amaral's legal defence it is Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral.
All donations to the UK gofundme appeal are transferred directly into that fund's bank account.
Totally transparent.
Have those funds already been transferred and what funds from the PJGA fund have been withdrawn?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 07, 2015, 04:46:40 PM
There is only one fund for Mr Amaral's legal defence it is Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral.
All donations to the UK gofundme appeal are transferred directly into that fund's bank account.
Totally transparent.

So why start a new fund?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 07, 2015, 04:47:52 PM
I have some evidence of high respect for him at the top level of a national political party.
And locally by real people in Olhão.
His selection as their candidate by the Partido Social Democrata indicated great respect by them for him.
And his amazing 53% in the pre-election poll shows the huge local public respect for him.
I would like to see him on the UK £1 stamp.

Hmmm. Would you care to elaborate on those points, Pegasus?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2015, 04:48:29 PM
The files don't draw the conclusions Amaral draws in his book do they?  The right to the presumption of innocence applies to everyone, but I don't see what difference that makes in this case, and yes, I  believe ex-policemen are expected to uphold this principle, why wouldn't they be?

Amaral takes one of the possibilities from the files as his thesis and attempts to prove that it is the correct thesis. The judge didn't rule on the correctness or otherwise of his conclusion, she just said it upset the McCanns. The presumption of innocence was ruled upon, so it's very important. I don't know if an ex policeman has to uphold the presumption of innocence of everyone or just of suspects.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 07, 2015, 04:50:27 PM
Amaral takes one of the possibilities from the files as his thesis and attempts to prove that it is the correct thesis. The judge didn't rule on the correctness or otherwise of his conclusion, she just said it upset the McCanns. The presumption of innocence was ruled upon, so it's very important. I don't know if an ex policeman has to uphold the presumption of innocence of everyone or just of suspects.
Well if an ex-policeman doesn't have to uphold the presumption of innocence of everyone then that means he is able to accuse everyone EXCEPT actual suspects of criminal acts, is that just and fair?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2015, 04:56:40 PM
Well if an ex-policeman doesn't have to uphold the presumption of innocence of everyone then that means he is able to accuse everyone EXCEPT actual suspects of criminal acts, is that just and fair?

Justice and fairness don't come into it really. It's what the law says which counts and the law isn't always about justice and fairness. I assume he would be sued, which seems to be the only recourse if someone says you did bad things, unless someone knows better?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 07, 2015, 04:58:37 PM
Have those funds already been transferred and what funds from the PJGA fund have been withdrawn?
Up to 31 May £23910 had been paid from gofundme's bank to the BPI PJGA account.
What is the corresponding figure for whatever fund pays the legal expenses of those who oppose Mr Amaral ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 07, 2015, 05:06:46 PM
Up to 31 May £23910 had been paid from gofundme's bank to the BPI PJGA account.
What is the corresponding figure for whatever fund pays the legal expenses of those who oppose Mr Amaral ?
I have no idea - you claimed that the Gonc Fund was completely transparent so that's why I asked the question, I assumed the answer would be readily forthcoming.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 07, 2015, 05:14:38 PM
Hmmm. Would you care to elaborate on those points, Pegasus?
His selection as mayoral candidate shows high regard by a major national political party.
And 53% in pre-election poll shows the high regard of him by people of Olhão.
(I got some dates wrong but the high regard stands)
ETA he was selected in 2008 and the prelections poll was about 23 Jan 2009.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 07, 2015, 05:23:12 PM
Amaral takes one of the possibilities from the files as his thesis and attempts to prove that it is the correct thesis. The judge didn't rule on the correctness or otherwise of his conclusion, she just said it upset the McCanns. The presumption of innocence was ruled upon, so it's very important. I don't know if an ex policeman has to uphold the presumption of innocence of everyone or just of suspects.

I can see your question... but it's not just that he's any old ex-cop, he was the coordinator and therefore could be assumed to know what he was talking about.

There must be all kinds of permutations... What would be the situation if he accused Mr Joe Blow? If Mr Blow had made an innocuous statement, but which appeared to Amaral as highly suspicious due to gut feeling... should those suspicions be made public? What if Mr Blow had never even been officially interviewed? Does that change anything?

Loads of people can become "persons of interest" at some point during a major investigation... It doesn't mean that they dunnit, though, does it? Nor that their names should be dragged through the mud as if they had done. And in particularly emotive cases such as the disappearance of a child, or even the suspected rape / murder of an adult... you and / or members of your family can be exposed to misguided vigilante action.

How on earth is that considered "normal" in a civilised society?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 07, 2015, 05:25:24 PM
His selection as mayoral candidate shows high regard by a major national political party.
And 53% in pre-election poll in shows the high regard of him by people of Olhão.
(I got some dates wrong but the high regard stands)

Where does the idea that he was considered in high regard by a major national political party come from and which party was it? Which pre-election poll? Who conducted it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 07, 2015, 05:47:34 PM
I explain by saying that the Conservative party had and still has very high regard for their Brighton candidate. The proof is that they selected him over all others. It is the same that the Partido Social Democrata had and still has high regard for Mr G Amaral. The proof is that they selected him as mayoral candidate over all others. I don't know who conducted the opinion poll but someone at the top of the national party talked of it so I am sure it is legit.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 07, 2015, 06:14:24 PM
I explain by saying that the Conservative party had and still has very high regard for their Brighton candidate. The proof is that they selected him over all others. It is the same that the Partido Social Democrata had and still has high regard for Mr G Amaral. The proof is that they selected him as mayoral candidate over all others. I don't know who conducted the opinion poll but someone at the top of the national party talked of it so I am sure it is legit.

So what happened?  Why did they drop him if he was such a favourite?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 07, 2015, 06:20:56 PM
So what happened?  Why did they drop him if he was such a favourite?
David Cameron had a quiet word...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 07, 2015, 06:29:54 PM
David Cameron had a quiet word...

Are you sure it wasn't Boris.  I could see the sense to that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2015, 06:33:52 PM
I can see your question... but it's not just that he's any old ex-cop, he was the coordinator and therefore could be assumed to know what he was talking about.

There must be all kinds of permutations... What would be the situation if he accused Mr Joe Blow? If Mr Blow had made an innocuous statement, but which appeared to Amaral as highly suspicious due to gut feeling... should those suspicions be made public? What if Mr Blow had never even been officially interviewed? Does that change anything?

Loads of people can become "persons of interest" at some point during a major investigation... It doesn't mean that they dunnit, though, does it? Nor that their names should be dragged through the mud as if they had done. And in particularly emotive cases such as the disappearance of a child, or even the suspected rape / murder of an adult... you and / or members of your family can be exposed to misguided vigilante action.

How on earth is that considered "normal" in a civilised society?

I suppose he may have seen himself as being in the same position as a whistle blower. He thought there was unprecedented support for the Tapas 9 from the UK. He thought the secret services were present. He decided at some point that UK police were only there to protect the McCanns. He believed there was political pressure on the PJ. When he voiced his concerns he was removed from the investigation. He became upset because the PJ didn't support him. That seems to be why he decided to write his book.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 07, 2015, 06:44:48 PM
So what happened?  Why did they drop him if he was such a favourite?
Hypothetically imagine how annoyed you are if you are highly regarded candidate in any UK local election and predicted to win then suddenly whoosh sorry you are being replaced for no reason bye.
ETA Mr Amaral has stated what he believes happened in Jan 2009.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 07, 2015, 06:53:01 PM
I suppose he may have seen himself as being in the same position as a whistle blower. He thought there was unprecedented support for the Tapas 9 from the UK. He thought the secret services were present. He decided at some point that UK police were only there to protect the McCanns. He believed there was political pressure on the PJ. When he voiced his concerns he was removed from the investigation. He became upset because the PJ didn't support him. That seems to be why he decided to write his book.

That all sounds as if he was not only delusional but in complete denial about how much his own actions had contributed to the mess his life had been in for some time.

Nothing seems to have changed for him really ... it will be interesting to see what tomorrow brings with it, although I doubt very much if we will find out anything about the grounds he may be presenting for his appeal to be considered.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 07, 2015, 06:57:27 PM
Hypothetically imagine how annoyed you are if you are highly regarded candidate in any UK local election and predicted to win then suddenly whoosh sorry you are being replaced for no reason bye.

                 £5%4%                 Why would Gerry McCann even know or care that Mr Amaral had political ambitions?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 07, 2015, 06:58:40 PM
Hypothetically imagine how annoyed you are if you are highly regarded candidate in any UK local election and predicted to win then suddenly whoosh sorry you are being replaced for no reason bye.
Mr Amaral has stated what he says happened.

He has got a Criminal Record you know.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 07, 2015, 07:00:08 PM
I suppose he may have seen himself as being in the same position as a whistle blower. He thought there was unprecedented support for the Tapas 9 from the UK. He thought the secret services were present. He decided at some point that UK police were only there to protect the McCanns. He believed there was political pressure on the PJ. When he voiced his concerns he was removed from the investigation. He became upset because the PJ didn't support him. That seems to be why he decided to write his book.

Paranoid you mean.  And a touch delusional.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 07, 2015, 07:07:16 PM
Paranoid you mean.  And a touch delusional.

That would be the view of some, others might say he was right.

His removal followed accusations of UK interference in the case.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 07, 2015, 07:13:57 PM
That would be the view of some, others might say he was right.

His removal followed accusations of UK interference in the case.

Others might say he was responsible for the leaks.  Although his Editor thinks he made it all up.

Which ever which way, he has to file an Appeal by tomorrow.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 07, 2015, 07:15:49 PM
I suppose he may have seen himself as being in the same position as a whistle blower. He thought there was unprecedented support for the Tapas 9 from the UK. He thought the secret services were present. He decided at some point that UK police were only there to protect the McCanns. He believed there was political pressure on the PJ. When he voiced his concerns he was removed from the investigation. He became upset because the PJ didn't support him. That seems to be why he decided to write his book.
if that is all true then he sounds like a paranoid [ censored word ].  No wonder he's so popular with the "sceptic" community.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 07, 2015, 07:16:23 PM
Others might say he was responsible for the leaks.  Although his Editor thinks he made it all up.

Which ever which way, he has to file an Appeal by tomorrow.

There were leaks on all sides.

Something tells me this case is far from over.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 07, 2015, 07:34:46 PM
I explain by saying that the Conservative party had and still has very high regard for their Brighton candidate. The proof is that they selected him over all others. It is the same that the Partido Social Democrata had and still has high regard for Mr G Amaral. The proof is that they selected him as mayoral candidate over all others. I don't know who conducted the opinion poll but someone at the top of the national party talked of it so I am sure it is legit.

So you haven't found anything to substantiate that?

I had a look as well.

Setting aside blog entries from his fan club, about all I can find is from Portugal News:
Ex-Maddie cop runs for mayor
in News · 17-01-2009 00:00:00 · 0 Comments

Gonçalo Amaralo, former detective in the Madeleine McCann disappearance case and author of the controversial book ‘Maddie: The Truth about the Lie’ has confirmed he is set to run for Mayor of Olhão, representing social-democratic party PSD/Algarve.

(...)

Better known for his roles in the ‘Madeline McCann’ and ‘Joana’ cases – two children, one British, one Portuguese, both of whom disappeared in separate incidents in the Algarve – ex-police officer Gonçalo Amaralo said his most recent challenge is the “result of my availability and an invitation that was made by PSD/Algarve and the local municipality”.


(...)

Tavira Mayor of twelve years Macário Correia has voiced his approval of Sr. Amaral’s nomination, considering it “positive”, that the PSD party has found a candidate that has “a strong civic participation and who has fought for justice”.

Hmmm.


I'd never heard of this chap, but I found this:
O Supremo Tribunal Administrativo determinou "a perda do actual mandato" de Macário Correira, presidente da Câmara de Faro, por violação do Plano Regional do Ordenamento do Território do Algarve e Plano Diretor Municipal em 2006.

http://www.dn.pt/inicio/portugal/interior.aspx?content_id=2646210

It seems that he's another one whose found himself in a bit of legal bother... and he's not even the deputy mayor who literally munched up documents during a police raid.

Never a dull moment down there...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 07, 2015, 07:51:18 PM
So you haven't found anything to substantiate that?

I had a look as well.

Setting aside blog entries from his fan club, about all I can find is from Portugal News:
Ex-Maddie cop runs for mayor
in News · 17-01-2009 00:00:00 · 0 Comments

Gonçalo Amaralo, former detective in the Madeleine McCann disappearance case and author of the controversial book ‘Maddie: The Truth about the Lie’ has confirmed he is set to run for Mayor of Olhão, representing social-democratic party PSD/Algarve.

(...)

Better known for his roles in the ‘Madeline McCann’ and ‘Joana’ cases – two children, one British, one Portuguese, both of whom disappeared in separate incidents in the Algarve – ex-police officer Gonçalo Amaralo said his most recent challenge is the “result of my availability and an invitation that was made by PSD/Algarve and the local municipality”.


(...)

Tavira Mayor of twelve years Macário Correia has voiced his approval of Sr. Amaral’s nomination, considering it “positive”, that the PSD party has found a candidate that has “a strong civic participation and who has fought for justice”.

Hmmm.


I'd never heard of this chap, but I found this:
O Supremo Tribunal Administrativo determinou "a perda do actual mandato" de Macário Correira, presidente da Câmara de Faro, por violação do Plano Regional do Ordenamento do Território do Algarve e Plano Diretor Municipal em 2006.

http://www.dn.pt/inicio/portugal/interior.aspx?content_id=2646210

It seems that he's another one whose found himself in a bit of legal bother... and he's not even the deputy mayor who literally munched up documents during a police raid.

Never a dull moment down there...

Part of the problem we have is that we have access only to translations we are given, few of us speak, read or write Portuguese ... with the result that the information we have to hand is filtered and we see those parts we are allowed to see and those parts which are spun for one individual and against others.

I think Portugal is no longer going to tolerate corruption at any level and have been proactive for the past few years in rooting out the dinosaurs.

I think Mr Amaral's time has come and gone in Portugal where it really matters to him ... perhaps tomorrow will find us one step further forward in the saga and we may be able to judge where it all goes from here.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 07, 2015, 08:14:18 PM
No. Two things only.

1. Did Amaral break the rules by using information gathered while case co-cordinator to write his book? The judge says he did because he published his book just three days after the release of the files.
2. Were the McCanns entitled  to the presumption of innocence? The judge said they were entitled to be presumed innocent by Amaral as he is a retired policeman and is as such still bound by the rules applied to those involved in the Judicial process.

1. As for breaking the secret of justice rules, was a formal complaint made? If so, did the Ministério Público follow it up? Was an investigation carried out? Was a formal accusation made? No! So, I can't see how the judge can decide that Gonçalo Amaral broke the secrecy of justice law when there was no accusation, no trial, he wasn't given an opportunity to defend himself, solely based on the three days. IMO, it was not in her remit to make this decision.
2. In the book and in interviews Gonçalo Amaral has never said outright that the McCanns were guilty, he only states that they were suspected of hiding their daughter's body and this is in accordance with the investigation of which he was a part.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 07, 2015, 08:27:25 PM
I just don't see how an arguido in a torture affair could be the best that the higher echelons of the PSD could find as a rising political star...


Moreover, even in the Algarve, his name appears to have been somewhat controversial:

Gonçalo Amaral splits PSD coordinating commitee for local elections Diário de Notícias

JOSÉ MANUEL OLIVEIRA & PAULA SÁ
09.01.09
Thanks to ‘Astro’ for translation

Candidacy. The former inspector’s name has caught the Algarvian mayors by surprise

The PSD Algarve district section votes on the name on Monday

The candidacy of Gonçalo Amaral to become Mayor of Olhão on behalf of PSD [Social Democratic Party] has been the cause of disruption within the party. And it even splits the social democrat coordinating committee for local elections. DN knows that at least one of its members, Miguel Macedo, has frontally manifested himself to his peers against the name of the former inspector, considering that he does not match the profile of mayor that PSD should defend.

But the tendency within the group that is presided over by Castro Almeida – which also includes Luís Marques Guedes and José Luís Arnaut – is to consider that Gonçalo is a good bet for one of the city halls that are most hard to conquer in the Algarve.

The former PJ coordinator’s candidacy has caught most of the party’s supporters and mayors of the Algarve by surprise. “For me, it’s a surprise. I only know the gentleman from the media, due to the media-exposed processes of the Maddie case in which he was involved until he left the PJ, and more recently for being on trial at the Court of Faro, with other colleagues, in a process of alleged aggressions against a lady who was condemned for killing her daughter”, said Fernando Viegas, a town councillor in Tavira and president of the Party Members’ Assembly of the party’s municipal section. For the president of the Municipality of Alcoutim, Francisco Amaral, the former PJ inspector represents “added value and a breath of fresh air in politics because this is a serious person who is free of other interests, who is used to deeply investigating the processes and who, above all, cares about justice”. Nuno Marques, a town councillor in Lagos and president of PSD’s municipal section, as well as member of the board of the district section, prefers to wait for this organ’s meeting, on Monday evening, in Faro, where Gonçalo Amaral’s candidacy will be subject to a vote, to pronounce himself.

- See more at: http://madeleinemccann.org/blog/2014/04/20/goncalo-amaral/#sthash.DqZEnfsg.dpuf

His name as a candidate was, however, apparently approved by a majority of the Faro PSD section, due to the "valuable and brilliant curriculum of the former inspector".

Who represented the Faro PSD section?

Social-democrat section of the district of Faro approve Gonçalo Amaral’s name, 20 January 2009
 
Social-democrat section of the district of Faro approve Gonçalo Amaral’s name TSF
 
Jan 20 2009 – 10:16
Thanks to Astro for translation
 
The Social-democrat section of the district of Faro has approved the name of Gonçalo Amaral as a candidate to the Municipality of Olhão by a large majority. Nevertheless, the name of the former Polícia Judiciária inspector does not earn approval from the leader of PSD, Manuela Ferreira Leite.
 
The name of Gonçalo Amaral has been approved by the vast majority of the members of the Social-democrat section of the district of Faro, as a candidate to become Mayor of Olhão, according to this entity’s political commission.

In a public note, the district section stressed that the former PJ inspector, who has investigated the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, possesses the political and personal profile that has been defined by the guidelines for local elections which have been approved by PSD.

Despite the fact that the Social-democrat leader does not see this candidacy in a positive manner, the Faro district section of PSD recalled that Gonçalo Amaral retired on the 30th of June and that if he steps into functions, this will occur one year and four months after he left the public service.

The district section’s political committee also noted the valuable and brilliant curriculum of the former inspector, who has been a member of the Party since May 2002, and which he didn’t desert despite the less positive moment of the Social Democrats.

One week ago, PSD’s president rejected the former inspector’s candidacy because he has recently left a post within Justice and that there could be no promiscuity between this sector of society and politics.

- See more at: http://madeleinemccann.org/blog/2014/04/20/goncalo-amaral/#sthash.DqZEnfsg.dpuf

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 07, 2015, 08:27:50 PM
1. As for breaking the secret of justice rules, was a formal complaint made? If so, did the Ministério Público follow it up? Was an investigation carried out? Was a formal accusation made? No! So, I can't see how the judge can decide that Gonçalo Amaral broke the secrecy of justice law when there was no accusation, no trial, he wasn't given an opportunity to defend himself, solely based on the three days. IMO, it was not in her remit to make this decision.
2. In the book and in interviews Gonçalo Amaral has never said outright that the McCanns were guilty, he only states that they were suspected of hiding their daughter's body and this is in accordance with the investigation of which he was a part.

Does this passage not appear in the book's final chapter then?

Quote
The conclusions my team and I have arrived at are the following:

1. The minor, Madeleine McCann died inside apartment 5A of the Ocean Club in Vila da Luz, on the night of May 3rd 2007;

2. There was simulation of abduction.

3. Kate Healy and Gerald McCann were probably involved in the concealment of their daughter's body.

4. The death may have occurred as a result of a tragic accident;

5. The evidence proves the parents' negligence concerning the care and safety of the children.

The sun is going down over this beautiful countryside. Children are playing under the watchful gaze of their parents. I think about the enthusiasm that was characteristic of him when I met Tavares in November 1981, at the judiciary police school, and which still fires him. The past seems distant, but it's not forgotten. We gave the best of ourselves to resolve this case. Our conclusions rest on the proven facts and the evidence interpreted within the principles of the law. Our work was done in the cause of justice, based on the material truth, the only thing that must prevail in a universe where the lie is raised up as truth.

The End
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2015, 08:31:41 PM
1. As for breaking the secret of justice rules, was a formal complaint made? If so, did the Ministério Público follow it up? Was an investigation carried out? Was a formal accusation made? No! So, I can't see how the judge can decide that Gonçalo Amaral broke the secrecy of justice law when there was no accusation, no trial, he wasn't given an opportunity to defend himself, solely based on the three days. IMO, it was not in her remit to make this decision.
2. In the book and in interviews Gonçalo Amaral has never said outright that the McCanns were guilty, he only states that they were suspected of hiding their daughter's body and this is in accordance with the investigation of which he was a part.

It is amazing how little you understand about the case...amaral has stated as a fact Maddie died in the apartment
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 07, 2015, 08:41:22 PM
Does this passage not appear in the book's final chapter then?

Not just the book.

What about in his docu drama?


My name is Goncalo Amaral and I was a police investigator for the Judiciary Police for 27 years. I co-ordinated the investigation of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann on the 3rd of May 2007. During the next 50 minutes I will PROVE that the child was not abducted and that she died in the holiday apartment in Praia da Luz. Discover all the truth about what happened that day. A death that many want to cover up.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 07, 2015, 08:48:40 PM

I don't suppose we could get back On Topic, could we?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 07, 2015, 09:55:17 PM
It is amazing how little you understand about the case...amaral has stated as a fact Maddie died in the apartment

It's amazing how little you understand about the case. The quote came from the report dated 10 September 2007 signed by Tavares de Almeida and was a report of the conclusions of the investigation as of that date and is not presented as Gonçalo Amaral's personal opinion on the investigation. This information is in the police file.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 07, 2015, 10:16:39 PM
It's amazing how little you understand about the case. The quote came from the report dated 10 September 2007 signed by Tavares de Almeida and was a report of the conclusions of the investigation as of that date and is not presented as Gonçalo Amaral's personal opinion on the investigation. This information is in the police file.

amaral stated he could prove Maddie died in the apartment...he was talking BS and he's been caught out
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on June 07, 2015, 10:44:11 PM
I have no idea - you claimed that the Gonc Fund was completely transparent so that's why I asked the question, I assumed the answer would be readily forthcoming.

That is a very good question though. How will the McCanns fund their legal representation in Portugal now if the only justification for using the fund, the damage to the search for Madeleine, has been dismissed by the judge ?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 07, 2015, 10:50:17 PM
That is a very good question though. How will the McCanns fund their legal representation in Portugal now if the only justification for using the fund, the damage to the search for Madeleine, has been dismissed by the judge ?
quick, start a fund for them Faithlilly, you wouldn't want Gonc to have an unfair advantage now, would you?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 08, 2015, 12:13:04 AM
That is a very good question though. How will the McCanns fund their legal representation in Portugal now if the only justification for using the fund, the damage to the search for Madeleine, has been dismissed by the judge ?

You presume the McCanns will require further legal representation in Portugal?
GA hasn't cleared the first hurdle yet.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 08, 2015, 01:13:42 AM
Here is an spun-in-distorted-pink article from NOTW.
The original news was that a highly regarded man of integrity had been selected by the top level of a leading portuguese political party as candidate for mayor of a small town called Olhão. A big honour and well deserved, because of his excellent experience in the PJ and his high level of ethics.
Those plain facts must have been a major threat to some individual as is proved by the pathetic spin which perverted the true good news by inserting the words "shamed" "booted out" "outrage" " right-wing" and by putting "MAYOR" in capitals which implies disgust.
What was the next thing that happened, just a few days after 11th JAN 2009?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 08, 2015, 01:25:40 AM
Here is an spun-in-distorted-pink article from NOTW.
The original news was that a highly regarded man of integrity had been selected by the top level of a leading portuguese political party as candidate for mayor of a small town called Olhão. A big honour and well deserved, because of his excellent experience in the PJ and his high level of ethics.
Those plain facts must have been a major threat to some individual as is proved by the pathetic spin which perverted the true good news by inserting the words "shamed" "booted out" "outrage" " right-wing" and by putting "MAYOR" in capitals which implies disgust.
What was the next thing that happened, just a few days after 11th May 2009?

I take it you mean a few days after 11th Jan 2009, ie 13th Jan when Gerry made his surprise trip to Lisbon with Edward Smethurst?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 08, 2015, 01:34:24 AM
Misty you are OTB and that's a compliment.

BTW what happened to Gonçalo 2nd Feb 2009 for no stated reason?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 08, 2015, 01:40:07 AM
http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/ex-maddie-cop-runs-for-mayor/25896

Ex-Maddie cop runs for mayor
IN NEWS · 17-01-2009 00:00:00 · 0 COMMENTS
Gonçalo Amaralo, former detective in the Madeleine McCann disappearance case and author of the controversial book ‘Maddie: The Truth about the Lie’ has confirmed he is set to run for Mayor of Olhão, representing social-democratic party PSD/Algarve.

The former Chief Inspector has also said he already has architectural projects in the pipeline, though his priority is to combat the “chronic unemployment” that is affecting the region.
Better known for his roles in the ‘Madeline McCann’ and ‘Joana’ cases – two children, one British, one Portuguese, both of whom disappeared in separate incidents in the Algarve – ex-police officer Gonçalo Amaralo said his most recent challenge is the “result of my availability and an invitation that was made by PSD/Algarve and the local municipality”.
He said “the time has come to offer support, to intervene and not stay sitting at home. I will once again be serving people, but this time with a different function”.
As Olhão is the country’s fourth city with the most unemployed citizens, the ex-cop has decided tackling unemployment would be his first mission.
Tavira Mayor of twelve years Macário Correia has voiced his approval of Sr. Amaral’s nomination, considering it “positive”, that the PSD party has found a candidate that has “a strong civic participation and who has fought for justice”.
Now 48 years old, Gonçalo Amaral joined the PJ police force in 1981, studying sociology, psychology, psychiatry and Criminal Investigation at the Lisbon police school.
This was followed by a course in law and a 17-year career with the PJ force culminating as chief inspector, in 1998, before controversially retiring under much speculation during the Madeleine McCann investigation, of which he was the original case coordinator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have to admire the man- is there no limit to all his skills? All those University qualifications & then becoming involved in architectural matters so soon after publishing 2 books.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 08, 2015, 01:53:59 AM
Thanks Misty for that article. Note the contrast between its honest straight reporting, and the outright distortion of the same story enforced on the UK public in the NOTW by the childish insertion of insult words.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 08, 2015, 01:55:20 AM
http://www.publico.pt/portugal/jornal/comissao-politica-do-psd-chumba-candidatura-do-exinspector-goncalo-amaral-a-camara-de-olhao-293242

Comissão política do PSD chumba candidatura do ex-inspector Gonçalo Amaral à Câmara de Olhão

  Sofia Rodrigues   
   28/01/2009 - 00:00
 



The National Political Committee of the PSD decided yesterday to veto the name of Gonçalo Amaral, former Inspector of Judicial Police, candidate for the City of Olhão.
PSD confirms that the organ so that the president's party, Manuela Ferreira Leite, had said in an interview with RTP - which spoke out against the name of the former inspector, as a person who until recently was linked to justice. "Politicians can not create the impression that there is a promiscuity between politics and justice," explained Ferreira Leite two weeks ago.
Former inspector, retired from PJ since June 2008, was the choice of the district council of the PSD / Algarve to list head in Olhão (city of residence) and approved by the district.
The coordinator municipal committee decided to veto, however, the name of Gonçalo Amaral and submitted this proposal to the national policy committee, which accepted it. This decision will mean that the choice of another candidate process is triggered.
The leader of PSD-Algarve and member of Parliament, Mendes Bota, has vehemently defended the former inspector who led the initial phase of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann investigations.
Macarius to Faro
Last Saturday, Mendes Bota was the presentation of Amaral's book, Maddie, the Truth Lies in Loulé, next to the author.
Asked at the time about whether there would be another alternate candidate, if the proposal were sinker by national political committee, Mendes Bota said only that the book of Gonçalo Amaral was "made of facts" and that all that was in the book was "truth."
Also during the end-of-week, Faro district council PSD approved by "unanimous" and "acclaim" the application Correia to farense authority.
Correia, currently president of Tavira Chamber, said Lusa that "welcomed" the will of the militants of PSD-Faro where was candidate to Faro, but preferred to refer to "later" more comments. At the meeting of the district council, Macarius said he had "some ideas" to solve the "medium and long term" "financial problems of the Faro local authority".
Just yesterday, the president of Faro Council, José Apolinario (PS), accused "someone" local PSD of having used a confidential document of the Court (TC) to make "political attack".
"One of the PSD sector understood deliver the document to the media," accused Apollinaris, in a press statement on the report in the Morning Post, which indicated that the CT detected "irregularities of more than 530,000 euros in ten additional contracts in construction from Faro athletics track. " with Lusa

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They're all as corrupt as each other. The guy who was elected instead of Amaral, former Mayor of Tavira, Jose Macario Correia, has been up to his neck in planning irregularities during his tenures in Tavira & Faro & was suspended from office.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 08, 2015, 01:58:35 AM
Thanks Misty for that article. Note the contrast between its honest straight reporting, and the outright distortion enforced on the UK public in the NOTW of the same story by childish insertion of insult words

You're welcome.

I'm a big fan of distorted reporting on the Sun's sports' pages, Pegasus.  %£&)**#
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 08, 2015, 02:04:09 AM
For an honest straight account of which persons reportedly met with a top PSD person in Lisbon in mid-Jan 2009, I refer you to none other than the greatest man of integrity in this whole case.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 08, 2015, 02:10:07 AM
You're welcome.

I'm a big fan of distorted reporting on the Sun's sports' pages, Pegasus.  %£&)**#
What did you think of the big official review of european football? 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 08, 2015, 02:20:04 AM
What did you think of the big official review of european football?

Which day's paper was that in, please? Haven't read yesterday/today's yet.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 08, 2015, 02:29:34 AM
@misty. Not important, it was years ago, portugese headed, blair and brown involved.
Back to the libel appeal - an amazing £27415 even with complete silence from major UK newspapers and TV.
The silence is so great I think maybe even the masterspinner couldn't have fixed that, silence for a whole week, and maybe something much bigger is happening silently behind scenes?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 08, 2015, 02:36:17 AM
For an honest straight account of which persons reportedly met with a top PSD person in Lisbon in mid-Jan 2009, I refer you to none other than the greatest man of integrity in this whole case.

I am equally sure that if there was any political influence exerted on the PSD official, it would have been leaked into the Portuguese press by an unnamed source.
Did Amaral believe he was so much of a threat to the McCanns & the UK that they would have to halt him in his political tracks AND his own proud fellow countrymen would allow that to happen?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 08, 2015, 02:44:43 AM
I am equally sure that if there was any political influence exerted on the PSD official, it would have been leaked into the Portuguese press by an unnamed source.
Did Amaral believe he was so much of a threat to the McCanns & the UK that they would have to halt him in his political tracks AND his own proud fellow countrymen would allow that to happen?
The fact is, something happened in Jan 2009, which somehow caused an unusual action by a major political party.
The trip to Lisbon mid-Jan 2009 is probably unconnected, BTW have you seen the video?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 08, 2015, 02:51:08 AM
@misty. Not important, it was years ago, portugese headed, blair and brown involved.
Back to the libel appeal - an amazing £27415 even with complete silence from major UK newspapers and TV.
The silence is so great I think maybe even the masterspinner couldn't have fixed that, silence for a whole week, and maybe something much bigger is happening silently behind scenes?

I can't answer that on this forum, Pegasus. Suffice to say, a lot of googling has made me of the opinion that all is not as it seems.
But yes, the silence is deafening, especially by Portuguese standards.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 08, 2015, 03:09:28 AM
I am thinking by UK standards Misty. Confucius say detective no talk means busy. Never underestimate a woman.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 08, 2015, 08:03:29 AM
I am thinking by UK standards Misty. Confucius say detective no talk means busy. Never underestimate a woman.
Is this just another way of saying "tick-tock, softly, softly catchee monkey" by any chance?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 08, 2015, 09:28:30 AM
Well either the McCanns are funding it themselves, or have negotiated contingency fees with their lawyers.  In my opinion this is the most likely.

It can't be an exclusively contingency arrangement, apparently:

An arrangement whereby the lawyer’s fees exclusively depend on the outcome of the dispute is forbidden by the Portuguese Bar Association Code (Cf. Article 101).
http://www.chambersandpartners.com/guide/practice-guides/location/241/6617/1422-200
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 08, 2015, 09:54:59 AM
That is a very good question though. How will the McCanns fund their legal representation in Portugal now if the only justification for using the fund, the damage to the search for Madeleine, has been dismissed by the judge ?

I don't think the fund directors  will be ruled by what the judge said. If they agree to fund the costs they can. As the fund accounts are so lacking in detail we would never know anyway.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 08, 2015, 09:55:20 AM
http://www.publico.pt/portugal/jornal/comissao-politica-do-psd-chumba-candidatura-do-exinspector-goncalo-amaral-a-camara-de-olhao-293242

Comissão política do PSD chumba candidatura do ex-inspector Gonçalo Amaral à Câmara de Olhão

  Sofia Rodrigues   
   28/01/2009 - 00:00
 



The National Political Committee of the PSD decided yesterday to veto the name of Gonçalo Amaral, former Inspector of Judicial Police, candidate for the City of Olhão.
PSD confirms that the organ so that the president's party, Manuela Ferreira Leite, had said in an interview with RTP - which spoke out against the name of the former inspector, as a person who until recently was linked to justice. "Politicians can not create the impression that there is a promiscuity between politics and justice," explained Ferreira Leite two weeks ago.
Former inspector, retired from PJ since June 2008, was the choice of the district council of the PSD / Algarve to list head in Olhão (city of residence) and approved by the district.
The coordinator municipal committee decided to veto, however, the name of Gonçalo Amaral and submitted this proposal to the national policy committee, which accepted it. This decision will mean that the choice of another candidate process is triggered.
The leader of PSD-Algarve and member of Parliament, Mendes Bota, has vehemently defended the former inspector who led the initial phase of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann investigations.
Macarius to Faro
Last Saturday, Mendes Bota was the presentation of Amaral's book, Maddie, the Truth Lies in Loulé, next to the author.
Asked at the time about whether there would be another alternate candidate, if the proposal were sinker by national political committee, Mendes Bota said only that the book of Gonçalo Amaral was "made of facts" and that all that was in the book was "truth."
Also during the end-of-week, Faro district council PSD approved by "unanimous" and "acclaim" the application Correia to farense authority.
Correia, currently president of Tavira Chamber, said Lusa that "welcomed" the will of the militants of PSD-Faro where was candidate to Faro, but preferred to refer to "later" more comments. At the meeting of the district council, Macarius said he had "some ideas" to solve the "medium and long term" "financial problems of the Faro local authority".
Just yesterday, the president of Faro Council, José Apolinario (PS), accused "someone" local PSD of having used a confidential document of the Court (TC) to make "political attack".
"One of the PSD sector understood deliver the document to the media," accused Apollinaris, in a press statement on the report in the Morning Post, which indicated that the CT detected "irregularities of more than 530,000 euros in ten additional contracts in construction from Faro athletics track. " with Lusa

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They're all as corrupt as each other. The guy who was elected instead of Amaral, former Mayor of Tavira, Jose Macario Correia, has been up to his neck in planning irregularities during his tenures in Tavira & Faro & was suspended from office.


We don't even see the tip of the iceberg over here ... but it has all been rumbling about  beneath the surface for many years before the McCann family set foot on Portuguese soil.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 08, 2015, 10:21:06 AM
There's more to that story...

https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/well-well-well-goncalo-amaral-and-threats-and-accusations/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 08, 2015, 10:25:10 AM

We don't even see the tip of the iceberg over here ... but it has all been rumbling about  beneath the surface for many years before the McCann family set foot on Portuguese soil.

so another indication that the honourable amaral is not so honourable after all
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 08, 2015, 10:48:54 AM
I hadn't noticed this before. Quite poignant, IMO. Moreover, it helps to clarify the point that just because something appears in the police files doesn't make it true.



Art 27 and 28. The decision concerning this issue faces, firstly, the problem of the dichotomy between "facts ascertained during the investigating process" and "facts that also are part of the investigating process". If “acts ascertained in the investigation" refers to those which, with rigour and according to the procedural-penal dogma, are the result of the investigation that was achieved, then only one deserves this qualification – the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
(P.10)
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v02.htm
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on June 08, 2015, 11:36:30 AM
This is undoubtedly an emotive subject for many and for the most part I am pleased to see that posts are constructive and presented in a pleasant manner.  To those who are still making disrespectful comments and are being less than polite to their fellow contributors, I urge you to mend your ways. TY
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 08, 2015, 11:52:36 AM
I suppose he may have seen himself as being in the same position as a whistle blower. He thought there was unprecedented support for the Tapas 9 from the UK. He thought the secret services were present. He decided at some point that UK police were only there to protect the McCanns. He believed there was political pressure on the PJ. When he voiced his concerns he was removed from the investigation. He became upset because the PJ didn't support him. That seems to be why he decided to write his book.

How can one consider oneself to be a whistleblower while simultaneously insisting that the facts presented are in the publicly accessible files?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 08, 2015, 12:07:00 PM
How can one consider oneself to be a whistleblower while simultaneously insisting that the facts presented are in the publicly accessible files?

In respect of what he thought was going on 'behind the scenes', not in the investigation.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 08, 2015, 12:08:38 PM
How can one consider oneself to be a whistleblower while simultaneously insisting that the facts presented are in the publicly accessible files?

And simultaneously simultaneously insisting that his book contained explosive revelations (which none too impressed the judge, as I recall).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on June 08, 2015, 12:44:06 PM
One must always remember that Gonçalo will have information in his possession concerning individuals and events which not even he can divulge, at least not yet.  There will also be confidences which he cannot break for fear of losing what support he still has among former colleagues.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 08, 2015, 12:49:33 PM
One must always remember that Gonçalo will have information in his possession concerning individuals and events which not even he can divulge, at least not yet.

If his appeal is not allowed, I can well imagine that he will be none too keen to divulge that publicly ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 08, 2015, 01:01:43 PM
One must always remember that Gonçalo will have information in his possession concerning individuals and events which not even he can divulge, at least not yet.  There will also be confidences which he cannot break for fear of losing what support he still has among former colleagues.

of course...his ace...wonder when he will play it
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on June 08, 2015, 01:29:15 PM
of course...his ace...wonder when he will play it

I have a feeling that ace might well come with consequences.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 08, 2015, 01:30:39 PM
One must always remember that Gonçalo will have information in his possession concerning individuals and events which not even he can divulge, at least not yet.  There will also be confidences which he cannot break for fear of losing what support he still has among former colleagues.

LOL John.

Can we have a crystal ball smiley, please?

Do you think he's found NSA photos of Gerry dressed in Kate's check trousers carrying Madeleine covered in the pink blanket yet?  £4%4£



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 08, 2015, 01:38:08 PM
One must always remember that Gonçalo will have information in his possession concerning individuals and events which not even he can divulge, at least not yet.  There will also be confidences which he cannot break for fear of losing what support he still has among former colleagues.
Why "not yet"?  Is he the only person with this top secret information? And, if it's so top secret how do you even know it exists...?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 08, 2015, 01:45:09 PM
Why "not yet"?  Is he the only person with this top secret information? And, if it's so top secret how do you even know it exists...?

If he had any such information, he would have been obliged to hand it over to the PJ... if that's the case, what did Paiva do with it? Paiva was, after all, one of his witnesses...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on June 08, 2015, 02:12:53 PM
Why "not yet"?  Is he the only person with this top secret information? And, if it's so top secret how do you even know it exists...?

Every police officer will have information which will never find its way into the public domain, I'm afraid it goes with the job.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on June 08, 2015, 02:17:29 PM
If he had any such information, he would have been obliged to hand it over to the PJ... if that's the case, what did Paiva do with it? Paiva was, after all, one of his witnesses...

The PJ is an organisation which still works on the basis of secrecy and the need to know and I cannot see that changing any time soon.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 08, 2015, 03:00:50 PM
The PJ is an organisation which still works on the basis of secrecy and the need to know and I cannot see that changing any time soon.

Going by the number of recent 'busts' concerning members of all branches of law enforcement, it seems the Portuguese authorities are making great efforts to get rid of the merest sniff of corruption.

I'm not sure that they would look kindly on an "Ace" being kept hidden for years to be produced at a time of Mr Amaral's choosing if it involves evidence in a case such as Madeleine McCann's.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 08, 2015, 03:30:00 PM
The idea that amaral has any useful information is simply ridiculous...IMO
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: DCI on June 08, 2015, 03:32:00 PM
I hadn't noticed this before. Quite poignant, IMO. Moreover, it helps to clarify the point that just because something appears in the police files doesn't make it true.



Art 27 and 28. The decision concerning this issue faces, firstly, the problem of the dichotomy between "facts ascertained during the investigating process" and "facts that also are part of the investigating process". If “acts ascertained in the investigation" refers to those which, with rigour and according to the procedural-penal dogma, are the result of the investigation that was achieved, then only one deserves this qualification – the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
(P.10)
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v02.htm (http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v02.htm)


That's some report, Carana. Have you done the actual income sums?  £5%4%
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 08, 2015, 03:34:18 PM
Going by the number of recent 'busts' concerning members of all branches of law enforcement, it seems the Portuguese authorities are making great efforts to get rid of the merest sniff of corruption.

I'm not sure that they would look kindly on an "Ace" being kept hidden for years to be produced at a time of Mr Amaral's choosing if it involves evidence in a case such as Madeleine McCann's.

It may be that the "ace" is nothing to do with the McCanns & everything to do with the powers-that-be in Portugal. Maybe he has to wait for the right time to play it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 08, 2015, 03:37:23 PM
Is anyone else slightly concerned that GA has not directly thanked the UK public for the massive donations to his fund, either on PJGA or his own Facebook page?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 08, 2015, 03:45:08 PM
Is this just another way of saying "tick-tock, softly, softly catchee monkey" by any chance?
No, based on research
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 08, 2015, 03:45:47 PM
Is anyone else slightly concerned that GA has not directly thanked the UK public for the massive donations to his fund, either on PJGA or his own Facebook page?

Not concerned, no.

But I think you do raise a very good point.

Perhaps he's not grateful.

I can think of (legitimate!) reasons why that might be ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 08, 2015, 03:46:18 PM
As far as I can work out, he played his aces years ago... Including getting his lawyer to introduce an out-of-context- snippet from a restricted NPIA report.

I don't quite see how that got introduced into the proceedings, but he managed it. And the anticipated fireworks went down like a lead balloon.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 08, 2015, 03:52:39 PM

That's some report, Carana. Have you done the actual income sums?  £5%4%

No, I haven't, DCI, as I don't know where to find what the estimated income was based on.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 08, 2015, 03:55:11 PM

That's some report, Carana. Have you done the actual income sums?  £5%4%

I didn't bother making the calculation DCI ... but quite an eye watering difference.  Wonder where it all went, more than a swanky car and a diamond earring's worth there?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 08, 2015, 03:57:14 PM
Is anyone else slightly concerned that GA has not directly thanked the UK public for the massive donations to his fund, either on PJGA or his own Facebook page?

The people running the fund have. I imagine he is keeping his distance in case people accuse him of collecting the money himself.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 08, 2015, 04:02:12 PM
The people running the fund have. I imagine he is keeping his distance in case people accuse him of collecting the money himself.

If he is denied leave to appeal, that would scarcely be an accusation.

The money is in the form of a gift and can be used for any purpose (apparently!)

If it can't be used to fund his appeal (because he is not allowed to appeal) the next logical (and obvious) use for the money would be to defray his liability to the McCanns and other expenses (legal and court fees) with (I suppose) anything left over going to Amaral.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 08, 2015, 04:05:19 PM
@ DCI

I have no problem with subtracting VAT... but even so these figures must have come from somewhere and I can't find that document.

Something that I've found curious for quite some time concerns the supposed non-existent sales in Brazil, in theory a country with a massive potential market and in which the addiction to telenovelas appears to be second only to football.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: DCI on June 08, 2015, 04:22:02 PM
No, I haven't, DCI, as I don't know where to find what the estimated income was based on.

These are without his interview fees.

1. Gonçalo Amaral made the statements that are attributed to him under the Correio da Manhã.Proved.

2. Proved that the defendant Guerra&Paz fixed the cover price of the book Maddie - A Verdade da Mentira in Portugal is € 13,33.

According to the affirmation 2 : 13,80, VAT included (6%).
3. and 4. Proved that the defendant Gonçalo Amaral earned from the sales of the book “Maddie, A Verdade da Mentira” in 2008 and 2009 an amount of € 342.111,86.

According to the affirmation 3 : GA earned from the sales in Portugal € 621.000.
According to the affirmation 4, GA has earned from the sale of editions in foreign languages of the book not less than € 498.750.

5. The book was sold in Brazil by the defendant Guerra e Paz, Editores SA.
Not proved.

6. Proved that the DVD was sold for € 6,95 byPresselivre Imprensa SA together with the newspaper Correio da Manhã, owned by this company.
According to the affirmation 6 : cover price of € 6.

7. Proved that the defendant Gonçalo Amaral earned € 40.000 from DVD sales in 2008.
According to the affirmation 7, he earned from the sale of the DVD € 112.500.



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 08, 2015, 04:28:54 PM
I wish people donating to the fund would not use it as a one-way noticeboard for their armchair theories.
Why not just donate and say "for a man of integrity" or "for justice".
The many comments mocking the bike ride are very unnecessary IMO.
Here's a clue, the solution when SY/PJ find it is likely have some very significant differences from Mr Amaral's theory. If not, he would have solved it in 2007. Have people forgotten the great british principle "innocent before proven guilty". The comments about the bike ride are out of order, just my opinion. It is better to donate and respect important principles.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 08, 2015, 04:48:41 PM
These are without his interview fees.

1. Gonçalo Amaral made the statements that are attributed to him under the Correio da Manhã.Proved.

2. Proved that the defendant Guerra&Paz fixed the cover price of the book Maddie - A Verdade da Mentira in Portugal is € 13,33.

According to the affirmation 2 : 13,80, VAT included (6%).
3. and 4. Proved that the defendant Gonçalo Amaral earned from the sales of the book “Maddie, A Verdade da Mentira” in 2008 and 2009 an amount of € 342.111,86.

According to the affirmation 3 : GA earned from the sales in Portugal € 621.000.
According to the affirmation 4, GA has earned from the sale of editions in foreign languages of the book not less than € 498.750.

5. The book was sold in Brazil by the defendant Guerra e Paz, Editores SA.
Not proved.

6. Proved that the DVD was sold for € 6,95 byPresselivre Imprensa SA together with the newspaper Correio da Manhã, owned by this company.
According to the affirmation 6 : cover price of € 6.

7. Proved that the defendant Gonçalo Amaral earned € 40.000 from DVD sales in 2008.
According to the affirmation 7, he earned from the sale of the DVD € 112.500.

Thanks DCI. I'd read that, but not any supporting document as to where some of those figures came from, and I presume that there must have been one.


And I'm still curious about the Brazil issue...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 08, 2015, 04:53:57 PM
No, based on research
Research of what?  Female DCIs?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 08, 2015, 05:41:51 PM
I wish people donating to the fund would not use it as a one-way noticeboard for their armchair theories.
Why not just donate and say "for a man of integrity" or "for justice".
The many comments mocking the bike ride are very unnecessary IMO.
Here's a clue, the solution when SY/PJ find it is likely have some very significant differences from Mr Amaral's theory. If not, he would have solved it in 2007. Have people forgotten the great british principle "innocent before proven guilty". The comments about the bike ride are out of order, just my opinion. It is better to donate and respect important principles.

I don't find the mocking comments about the bike ride to raise money for a charity to be in quite the same league as some of the nonsense people think  £5.00 donation entitles them to post.  I am incredulous as to how the brains of these individuals are wired ... and anyone from the real world (not our incestuous little corner of it) bothering to read must simply be disgusted at the open hatred displayed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 08, 2015, 08:10:44 PM
There was a post from petermac who claims to be  a policeman...his words were...."they told the world the shutters had been broken and smashed"...the fact is they didn't.

I hope he isn't an ex policeman as it's quite worrying that a policeman could be so dishonest, stupid or both.
The site seem mainly a place where sceptics can tell their lies without being challenged and contribute to amaral's fund whilst sickenly claiming to be about justice for maddie
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 08, 2015, 08:23:50 PM
So I guess by now Amaral has filed his appeal - what next?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Admin on June 08, 2015, 09:58:41 PM
Can we keep to the thread theme please.

Admin
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 08, 2015, 10:12:16 PM
So I guess by now Amaral has filed his appeal - what next?

A poor guess (unless tongue-in-cheek, in which case, an excellent guess).

Another question: if, indeed, Amaral has lost the libel trial outright, how can Poulton produce a video saying, theMcCannsdunit?

Answers on a postcard ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 08, 2015, 10:34:23 PM

Be warned.  I am gonna do what Admin said I should.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 09, 2015, 12:58:25 PM
I do find it strange that after his outburst against the verdict amaral has gone very quiet re his appeal
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 09, 2015, 01:22:48 PM
A poor guess (unless tongue-in-cheek, in which case, an excellent guess).

Another question: if, indeed, Amaral has lost the libel trial outright, how can Poulton produce a video saying, theMcCannsdunit?

Answers on a postcard ....

The judge in Portugal said it's not illegal to say what Amaral said. In the UK they would sue, I expect.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 09, 2015, 01:28:04 PM
The judge in Portugal said it's not illegal to say what Amaral said. In the UK they would sue, I expect.

it would not be illegal in the UK either
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 09, 2015, 01:31:31 PM
IMO an approximate estimate of the legal expenditure cost of appealing is about £40,000.
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 09, 2015, 01:48:17 PM
I do find it strange that after his outburst against the verdict amaral has gone very quiet re his appeal
Justice works in silence, you know.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 09, 2015, 02:07:16 PM
IMO an approximate estimate of the legal expenditure cost of appealing is about £40,000.

What is that estimate based on?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 09, 2015, 09:20:05 PM
What is that estimate based on?
A very small quantity of lawyers. I assume there is only one?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 10, 2015, 09:07:24 PM
In this libel case has the 2008 LP statement been mentioned yet by Mr Amaral's lawyer?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 10, 2015, 09:19:20 PM
In this libel case has the 2008 LP statement been mentioned yet by Mr Amaral's lawyer?

Do you mean the one before the files were released?

If so, irrelevant ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 10, 2015, 10:06:04 PM
Do you mean the one before the files were released?

If so, irrelevant ...
The Leic Police statement to the Court was made at a date (7 July 2008 IIRC) when Mr Amaral was completing the final words of his book, and is therefore relevant IMO.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 10, 2015, 11:25:49 PM
I don't find the mocking comments about the bike ride to raise money for a charity to be in quite the same league as some of the nonsense people think  £5.00 donation entitles them to post.  I am incredulous as to how the brains of these individuals are wired ... and anyone from the real world (not our incestuous little corner of it) bothering to read must simply be disgusted at the open hatred displayed.

I most certainly am disgusted at the hatred towards Amaral, and others who do not believe in the McCanns stranger abduction theory as well.

He has every right to access his legal right regardless of what is said on here, It does seem to upset some folks though.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 11, 2015, 12:06:14 AM
This case started with an "ex-parte" injunction.
Mr Amaral was not allowed to be present and was not even informed about it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 11, 2015, 12:11:55 AM
I most certainly am disgusted at the hatred towards Amaral, and others who do not believe in the McCanns stranger abduction theory as well.

He has every right to access his legal right regardless of what is said on here, It does seem to upset some folks though.

I haven't actually seen anyone on this forum objecting to people funding Mr Amaral's appeal ... what they wish to do with their money is entirely their concern.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 11, 2015, 03:48:43 AM
I haven't actually seen anyone on this forum objecting to people funding Mr Amaral's appeal ... what they wish to do with their money is entirely their concern.
And I am sure nobody will have any objection if the gofundme total raised increases to £40K when the Sun Mirror Mail Telegraph Guardian Times Independent BBC ITV and Sky all finally end their recent silence about it? That is big amount of publicity coming soon?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 11, 2015, 08:07:46 AM
And I am sure nobody will have any objection if the gofundme total raised increases to £40K when the Sun Mirror Mail Telegraph Guardian Times Independent BBC ITV and Sky all finally end their recent silence about it? That is big amount of publicity coming soon?
I thought £25k was supposed to be the trigger point for mass media interest...?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 11, 2015, 08:30:51 AM
Now where did I read that some UK newspapers would not report anything really in favour of Amaral and against the mccanns...........................
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 11, 2015, 09:04:03 AM
And I am sure nobody will have any objection if the gofundme total raised increases to £40K when the Sun Mirror Mail Telegraph Guardian Times Independent BBC ITV and Sky all finally end their recent silence about it? That is big amount of publicity coming soon?

If the appeal goes ahead I think it will need to top at least £40,000 and keep going and if one appeal precipitates another it could be an even longer haul. 

I hope people are prepared for that.
 
More important than any alleged silence (the sum of £60,000 raised by more people in a far shorter space of time to fund legal action against Alastair Carmichael, a national politician ~ has received little attention and certainly not a front page) is the fact we have heard absolutely zilch about the appeal. 

Not even a line anywhere to say it is proceeding.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2015, 09:40:04 AM
That's a big if.

Even though it's possible to do far more, it shouldn't be necessary to have to do more than compare that part of the prosecutors' report which makes plain the McCanns are not guilty of any crime with the final chapter of Amaral's book, to scupper all Amaral's hopes of an appeal ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 11, 2015, 09:47:57 AM
That's a big if.

Even though it's possible to do far more, it shouldn't be necessary to have to do more than compare that part of the prosecutors' report which makes plain the McCanns are not guilty of any crime with the final chapter of Amaral's book, to scupper all Amaral's hopes of an appeal ....

There you go again, putting your own indemnable slant on the archiving report.

The AG stated there was no proof they were involved..NOT THAT THEY WEREN'T !!!

The jury's still out on that question ferryman.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2015, 09:52:58 AM
All im-modesty to the fore, I've yet to hear a more plausible explanation than mine of why Santos began proceedings with a plea that proceedings be in camera to protect Madeleine lest Madeleine be alive.

Libel was admitted, making sense of pronouncements about later proceedings that they were damages proceedings.

Indeed, proceedings to establish damage arising from proven and admitted libel ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: carlymichelle on June 11, 2015, 09:53:28 AM
There you go again, putting your own slant on the archiving report.

The AG stated there was no proof they were involved..NOT THAT THEY WEREN'T !!!

The jury's still out on that question ferryman.

exactly     the mcann supporters only read  what  they want too imo
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2015, 10:05:47 AM
There you go again, putting your own slant on the archiving report.

The AG stated there was no proof they were involved..NOT THAT THEY WEREN'T !!!

The jury's still out on that question ferryman.

How can the 'jury still be out' as to whether or not they were involved -  when both the PJ and SY have said they are not suspects?     

That can only mean that they have been cleared of any suspicion of involvement by both police forces.

A group of sceptics in a corner of the internet who do not want to accept that fact is not a 'jury' - except in their own minds IMO.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 11, 2015, 10:07:08 AM
How can the 'jury still be out' as to whether or not they were involved -  when both the PJ and SY have said they are not suspects?     

That can only mean that they have been cleared of any suspicion of involvement by both police forces.

A group of sceptics in a corner of the internet who do not want to accept that fact is not a 'jury' - except in their own minds IMO.

Unfortunately benice, the crime remains unknown.

Beliefs DON'T COUNT, DO THEY.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2015, 10:08:14 AM
Why was Amaral's (latest in a long line of!) lawyers recently heard wittering vacuously about neglect?

Does anyone know?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 11, 2015, 10:09:50 AM
All im-modesty to the fore, I've yet to hear a more plausible explanation than mine of why Santos began proceedings with a plea that proceedings be in camera to protect Madeleine lest Madeleine be alive.

Libel was admitted, making sense of pronouncements about later proceedings that they were damages proceedings.

Indeed, proceedings to establish damage arising from proven and admitted libel ...

Libel has never been admitted ferryman, do you dwell in a parallel universe by any chance? 

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 11, 2015, 10:10:56 AM
Why was Amaral's (latest in a long line of!) lawyers recently heard wittering vacuously about neglect?

Does anyone know?


Does anyone care?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 11, 2015, 10:11:16 AM
How can the 'jury still be out' as to whether or not they were involved -  when both the PJ and SY have said they are not suspects?     

That can only mean that they have been cleared of any suspicion of involvement by both police forces.

A group of sceptics in a corner of the internet who do not want to accept that fact is not a 'jury' - except in their own minds IMO.

As time goes by that could all change, this is the simple fact which many fail to comprehend. They have never been cleared since the crime if any has never been established.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2015, 10:12:01 AM
Libel has never been admitted ferryman, do you dwell in a parallel universe by any chance?

I just observe events as they unfold.

We'll see.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2015, 10:13:34 AM
Unfortunately benice, the crime remains unknown.

Beliefs DON'T COUNT, DO THEY.


Whatever the crime was - it is a fact that as a result of their investigations - the McCanns and their friends have been ruled out as suspects by both police forces.   They are not even persons of interest.

That is not a belief Stephen  - it's a FACT.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on June 11, 2015, 10:18:26 AM
As time goes by that could all change, this is the simple fact which many fail to comprehend. They have never been cleared since the crime if any has never been established.

The parents are unfortunately in limboland and will continue to be so for as long as Madeleine's fate is unknown.  Not a nice situation to be in by any means.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2015, 10:22:01 AM
The parents are unfortunately in limboland and will continue to be so for as long as Madeleine's fate is unknown.  Not a nice situation to be in by any means.

If, by that, you mean suffering the unbearable tension and distress of just not knowing, then agreed.

But if you mean in the frame (as suspects), then disagreed ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on June 11, 2015, 10:27:09 AM
If, by that, you mean suffering the unbearable tension and distress of just not knowing, then agreed.

But if you mean in the frame (as suspects), then disagreed ...

Only they know the answer to that one so it would be wrong to speculate.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 11, 2015, 10:58:44 AM
If it goes through (which I expect it will), it will be nit-picking over one or more points of fact presented in court or law, IMO. E.g., the judge hadn't fully considered x, y or z and that a different interpretation could be made.



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2015, 11:05:02 AM
I think the only thing Amaral can appeal is the size of the award, which would make sense of witterings about 'neglect'.

That's probably what Amaral is basing his plea on ...

There seems to be some confusion about Portuguese practise, here.

High awards are (virtually) unheard of in criminal libel cases.

Civil libel cases are, themselves, rare.

But where they occur, there is no cap on the size of an award.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2015, 11:12:09 AM
As time goes by that could all change, this is the simple fact which many fail to comprehend. They have never been cleared since the crime if any has never been established.

There is the technical possibility of something (at present unknown) coming to light which might switch the focus of attention to the McCanns (or any of their friends). 

But that would seem extremely unlikely.

*Edited for syntax
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 11, 2015, 11:16:43 AM
I think the only thing Amaral can appeal is the size of the award, which would make sense of witterings about 'neglect'.

That's probably what Amaral is basing his plea on ...

There seems to be some confusion about Portuguese practise, here.

High awards are (virtually) unheard of in criminal libel cases.

Civil libel cases are, themselves, rare.

But where they occur, there is no cap on the size of an award.

I don't see how any recent witterings about anything would affect the issues under consideration.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2015, 11:20:06 AM
I don't see how witterings about anything would affect the issues under consideration.

Probably not, to Amaral's advantage.

Which would make the McCanns outright winners at first instance ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 11, 2015, 11:32:55 AM
Probably not, to Amaral's advantage.

Which would make the McCanns outright winners at first instance ....

How so?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2015, 11:38:01 AM
How so?

Because Amaral has no basis of appeal.

He has written a book stating theMcCannsdunitandcovereditup, when no serious follower of events (including two national police forces and the Portuguese prosecutors) concur with that view.

So that just leaves the size of the award to challenge, which doesn't seem excessive compared to money made from sales, interviews (etc.)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 11, 2015, 11:48:20 AM
Because Amaral has no basis of appeal.

He has written a book stating theMcCannsdunitandcovereditup, when no serious follower of events (including two national police forces and the Portuguese prosecutors) concur with that view.

So that just leaves the size of the award to challenge, which doesn't seem excessive compared to money made from sales, interviews (etc.)

The judge only took into account the public prosecutors' ruling. The fact that the case has since been reopened or that he has continued to spout his theory since doesn't appear to have been raised, possibly because these events took place after the timeframe in question. Don't forget how long this has been going on for.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2015, 11:52:34 AM

Has the timeline for an appeal expired?  Or is there a facility for requesting an extension?  plz

(If there has been any news on this - I must have missed it.)

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2015, 12:03:45 PM
Has the timeline for an appeal expired?  Or is there a facility for requesting an extension?  plz

(If there has been any news on this - I must have missed it.)

There were 40 calendar days from a point towards the end of April.

There are 31 days in May and it's now 11 June
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 11, 2015, 12:14:01 PM
Because Amaral has no basis of appeal.

He has written a book stating theMcCannsdunitandcovereditup, when no serious follower of events (including two national police forces and the Portuguese prosecutors) concur with that view.

So that just leaves the size of the award to challenge, which doesn't seem excessive compared to money made from sales, interviews (etc.)

Wrong again.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2015, 12:14:35 PM
There were 40 calendar days from a point towards the end of April.

There are 31 days in May and it's now 11 June

Thanks Ferryman.   So even without counting any days in April  - at least 42 days have already passed. 

Maybe he's been given an extension.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2015, 12:22:00 PM

Maybe he has lodged an Appeal, and is now waiting to see if it will be accepted, since his reasons will have to be considered.

I have no idea how long this could take.  Any ideas, anyone?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 11, 2015, 12:23:38 PM
I thought £25k was supposed to be the trigger point for mass media interest...?
Yes there was an indication that reaching the £25K target would be the trigger point, at least for one major newspaper, when they would report on it. But still silence, even though it is now approaching £30K. IMO the articles are queued up at editor's desk but get no further. There's a journo who donated ages ago who said just that - 2 articles queued. Maybe something will be published when there is tangible proof the appeal has been both filed and accepted?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2015, 12:41:03 PM
Maybe he has lodged an Appeal, and is now waiting to see if it will be accepted, since his reasons will have to be considered.

I have no idea how long this could take.  Any ideas, anyone?

Yes that could be the case.    Perhaps an explanatory statement is on its way to his supporters.  They must be wondering too.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2015, 12:51:10 PM
http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/

Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral's Legal Defence account has received since April 28, 2015

- through Paypal:

€ 5643.62 (five thousand six hundred forty three euro and sixty two cents)
and
$ 90.57 (ninety dollars and fifty seven cents)

- through the GoFundMe page created by Leanne Baulch:

£ 23,910 (twenty three thousand nine hundred and ten pounds)

These amounts will be applied to cover expenses with the defence of Gonçalo Amaral, in the civil suit brought against him by the McCann family.

The appeal is being prepared by Mr Amaral's lawyers and will be filed in due time.

Once the appeal is filed, PJGA will publish a statement.

At this point, we would like to, once again, thank you for your immense support - and patience.

Our trust in Portuguese justice remains firmly in place.

Thank you.


Has there been an announcement?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 11, 2015, 01:00:21 PM
All im-modesty to the fore, I've yet to hear a more plausible explanation than mine of why Santos began proceedings with a plea that proceedings be in camera to protect Madeleine lest Madeleine be alive.

Libel was admitted, making sense of pronouncements about later proceedings that they were damages proceedings.

Indeed, proceedings to establish damage arising from proven and admitted libel ...

That's the lawyer who was dismissed by SMS, isn't it?

 Gonçalo Amaral despede advogado por SMS


17.06.2014 9h01

Às dez da noite de sexta-feira o advogado Santos de Oliveira recebeu um SMS de Gonçalo Amaral a dispensar os seus serviços.

http://expresso.sapo.pt/sociedade/goncalo-amaral-despede-advogado-por-sms=f876140
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2015, 01:33:49 PM
That's the lawyer who was dismissed by SMS, isn't it?

 Gonçalo Amaral despede advogado por SMS


17.06.2014 9h01

Às dez da noite de sexta-feira o advogado Santos de Oliveira recebeu um SMS de Gonçalo Amaral a dispensar os seus serviços.

http://expresso.sapo.pt/sociedade/goncalo-amaral-despede-advogado-por-sms=f876140

It is.

He seemed to have got suckered in by poor on-line advice about the McCanns' legitimacy in bringing legal action in Madeleine's name.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 11, 2015, 02:18:32 PM
It is.

He seemed to have got suckered in by poor on-line advice about the McCanns' legitimacy in bringing legal action in Madeleine's name.

You just can't get a decent lawyer these days. 8(8-))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 11, 2015, 02:40:12 PM
If it goes through (which I expect it will), it will be nit-picking over one or more points of fact presented in court or law, IMO. E.g., the judge hadn't fully considered x, y or z and that a different interpretation could be made.

I think that is why the judge made her ruling so brutally short and to the point.  I think the intention was to make sure her decision would stand with no leeway for appeal.

What is to appeal?  He did breach confidentiality and he did deny the McCanns' their right to innocence.  As far as the amount concerned ... he probably made more from the book and documentary.

The longer it drags on without news of the lodgement of an appeal ... the more I think the judge may have made it impossible.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 11, 2015, 02:41:01 PM
It is.

He seemed to have got suckered in by poor on-line advice about the McCanns' legitimacy in bringing legal action in Madeleine's name.

In the long run it made no difference as the judge deffed out claims for the children.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 11, 2015, 02:41:45 PM
I think that is why the judge made her ruling so brutally short and to the point.  I think the intention was to make sure her decision would stand with no leeway for appeal.

What is to appeal?  He did breach confidentiality and he did deny the McCanns' their right to innocence.  As far as the amount concerned ... he probably made more from the book and documentary.

The longer it drags on without news of the lodgement of an appeal ... the more I think the judge may have made it impossible.

Here we go again.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 11, 2015, 03:25:54 PM
£33K raised.
The UK press is silenced - it's almost as if one side has some kind of power over them.
And the desperate childish attempts to discredit the gofundme appeal have started.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 11, 2015, 03:52:49 PM
£33K raised.
The UK press is silenced - it's almost as if one side has some kind of power over them.
And the desperate childish attempts to discredit the gofundme appeal have started.

Is there any press coverage anywhere?
Where is all the vocal support for a "wronged SIO" in Portugal? Unless they know something we don't.........
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 11, 2015, 04:00:00 PM
£33K raised.
The UK press is silenced - it's almost as if one side has some kind of power over them.
And the desperate childish attempts to discredit the gofundme appeal have started.
The UK Press is not silenced, it is indifferent, apart from the Star which will publish any old crap if it thinks it will sell a newspaper.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 11, 2015, 04:02:40 PM
The UK Press is not silenced, it is indifferent, apart from the Star which will publish any old crap if it thinks it will sell a newspaper.

Yet the UK press will print stories supporting the McCanns claim of abduction, despite their being not one iota of evidence supporting that.

 &%+(
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 11, 2015, 04:08:46 PM
£33K raised.
The UK press is silenced - it's almost as if one side has some kind of power over them.
And the desperate childish attempts to discredit the gofundme appeal have started.

What's newsworthy about the fact that he's likely to appeal?

The UK media haven't been silenced: there was an article in the Star when the new fund hit £25k. Plus one by Natasha Donn, evidently.

If ever the ruling eventually got overturned (which I doubt) or reduced to a nominal sum, that might spark a bit of interest due to the broader issues involved.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 11, 2015, 04:14:07 PM
The UK Press is not silenced, it is indifferent, apart from the Star which will publish any old crap if it thinks it will sell a newspaper.

LOL I hadn't seen your comment before posting.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 11, 2015, 04:15:04 PM
£33K raised.
The UK press is silenced - it's almost as if one side has some kind of power over them.
And the desperate childish attempts to discredit the gofundme appeal have started.
According to some here Amaral is a national hero.  This being the case, perhaps you can supply links to the numerous PT press articles about this fundraising endeavour?  After all, I understand that despite his huge popularity in Portugal his own countrymen have been a little stingy on the donations front but I'm sure funds are flooding in now from the Portuguese following the huge media interest there...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2015, 05:32:46 PM
What's newsworthy about the fact that he's likely to appeal?

The UK media haven't been silenced: there was an article in the Star when the new fund hit £25k. Plus one by Natasha Donn, evidently.

If ever the ruling eventually got overturned (which I doubt) or reduced to a nominal sum, that might spark a bit of interest due to the broader issues involved.

Likely to appeal?

The date for appeals is passed and there is no confirmation that he has ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 11, 2015, 07:15:57 PM
Likely to appeal?

The date for appeals is passed and there is no confirmation that he has ...


Wait and see. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 11, 2015, 07:22:13 PM
....I understand that despite his huge popularity in Portugal his own countrymen have been a little stingy on the donations front...
Possibly because the gofundme page is aimed at english speakers?
Portuguese people have donated directly to PJGA.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 11, 2015, 07:30:58 PM
Possibly because the gofundme page is aimed at english speakers?
Portuguese people have donated directly to PJGA.
I got severely reprimanded once for selective quoting someone else's post.  Perhaps you could now address the whole of my post?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 11, 2015, 07:35:44 PM
The UK Press is not silenced, it is indifferent, apart from the Star which will publish any old crap if it thinks it will sell a newspaper.
Correct.
Being an old cynic one could say "Corpulent balding middle aged ex maybe bent copper appealing court judgement" don't sell copy.
"Cute little blonde girl with tennis balls"....kerching. But one would guess that particular kerching sells less copy than it used to so will wind down until something truly eye catching happens.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 11, 2015, 07:42:16 PM
Correct.
Being an old cynic one could say "Corpulent balding middle aged ex maybe bent copper appealing court judgement" don't sell copy.
"Cute little blonde girl with tennis balls"....kerching. But one would guess that particular kerching sells less copy than it used to so will wind down until something truly eye catching happens.
Pegasus' contention that it was the humungous fund raised by the Ammy Barmy Army that was in itself noteworthy, not so much the fact of the bent ex-copper appealing....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 11, 2015, 07:49:08 PM
Pegasus' contention that it was the humungous fund raised by the Ammy Barmy Army that was in itself noteworthy, not so much the fact of the bent ex-copper appealing....

and what about the mccanny barmy army ?

After all, it takes two to tango. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 11, 2015, 07:56:03 PM
Pegasus' contention that it was the humungous fund raised by the Ammy Barmy Army that was in itself noteworthy, not so much the fact of the bent ex-copper appealing....

I don't understand gibberish can you do it in English, French or German please?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 11, 2015, 07:59:58 PM
Pegasus' contention that it was the humungous fund raised by the Ammy Barmy Army that was in itself noteworthy, not so much the fact of the bent ex-copper appealing....
I had been led to believe that at least one major UK newspaper (not the star) was planning to report this as soon as it reached 25K target. Also there is a donation claiming to be from a journo which says that articles are being held back until time right.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 11, 2015, 08:20:07 PM
I had been led to believe that at least one major UK newspaper (not the star) was planning to report this as soon as it reached 25K target. Also there is a donation claiming to be from a journo which says that articles are being held back until time right.

A lot of sauces have said a lot of things over time, Pegasus.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 11, 2015, 08:21:37 PM
Correct.
Being an old cynic one could say "Corpulent balding middle aged ex maybe bent copper appealing court judgement" don't sell copy.
"Cute little blonde girl with tennis balls"....kerching. But one would guess that particular kerching sells less copy than it used to so will wind down until something truly eye catching happens.

That seems to be a reasonable assumption to me...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 11, 2015, 08:40:50 PM
A lot of sauces have said a lot of things over time, Pegasus.
No sauces Carana, just noticing a silence.
I bet no-one can tell me who are NW and HM ??
Here's a clue - they and their teams have been working hard behind the scenes and for months now have been completely silent. An interesting silence IMO which may mean they are making real progess? That would make the libel case insignificant.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2015, 08:50:30 PM

Goncalo Amaral has undoubtedly lodged an Appeal.  But it will take time to process.  Unless, of course, his lawyer has told him that he's got no chance.  But why would he do that since there is enough money to pay him?

Goncalo Amaral is not obliged to keep us updated, anymore than The Mccanns are.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 11, 2015, 08:54:54 PM
I had been led to believe that at least one major UK newspaper (not the star) was planning to report this as soon as it reached 25K target. Also there is a donation claiming to be from a journo which says that articles are being held back until time right.
And yet no explanation from you concerning the similar apathy from the Portuguese press, despite Amaral's national hero status?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 11, 2015, 08:57:52 PM
Goncalo Amaral has undoubtedly lodged an Appeal.  But it will take time to process.  Unless, of course, his lawyer has told him that he's got no chance.  But why would he do that since there is enough money to pay him?

Goncalo Amaral is not obliged to keep us updated, anymore than The Mccanns are.

I am in complete agreement with that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 11, 2015, 09:02:28 PM
And yet no explanation from you concerning the similar apathy from the Portuguese press, despite Amaral's national hero status?
The complete silence from the major Portugese TV stations and newspapers about the gofundme appeal reaching its target so fast, is very strange. I have at this time no explanation for it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 11, 2015, 09:43:25 PM
Gofundmeappeal? Big deal! whats 30k for legal fees to save your sanity reputation life and property to *c5-6million to spend as you wish? Pathetic.

*amended
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 11, 2015, 10:08:15 PM
Any views on whether this legal case began with an ex-parte injunction?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Cudge on June 11, 2015, 11:08:22 PM
No sauces Carana, just noticing a silence.
I bet no-one can tell me who are NW and HM ??
Here's a clue - they and their teams have been working hard behind the scenes and for months now have been completely silent. An interesting silence IMO which may mean they are making real progess? That would make the libel case insignificant.

Nigel Worthington ex Leicester and England striker so connections not too far away from Rothley and Hank Marvin former lead guitarist with the shadows who were Cliff Richards back up group and we all are aware of Cliffs connections to the Algarve
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 11, 2015, 11:11:08 PM
Any views on whether this legal case began with an ex-parte injunction?

Yes it did. As so many do. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on June 11, 2015, 11:17:50 PM
No sauces Carana, just noticing a silence.
I bet no-one can tell me who are NW and HM ??
Here's a clue - they and their teams have been working hard behind the scenes and for months now have been completely silent. An interesting silence IMO which may mean they are making real progess? That would make the libel case insignificant.

You do like quizs Pegasus. Nicola Walls and Helen Monteiro
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 11, 2015, 11:55:27 PM
You do like quizs Pegasus. Nicola Walls and Helen Monteiro
Yes.
There is an old saying in our old village pub.
"A woman who is not talking is very busy".
And BTW one of them has a reputation for solving crimes before anyone notices.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 12, 2015, 12:03:11 AM
Yes it did. As so many do.
Thanks. So is it normal, for the other party to first hear of the injunction against them on the telly?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on June 12, 2015, 12:05:00 AM
Yes.
There is an old saying in our old village pub.
"A woman who is not talking is very busy".
And BTW one of them has a reputation for solving crimes before anyone notices.

Yes Nicola, does.  However, I don't think they would be interesting in his appeal, so lets get back on the topic of The thread again.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 12, 2015, 12:10:27 AM
Another legal question, could the judge decide to rule (in the appeal) in favour of one of the 5 appellants and against another of the 5, or must the judge treat all 5 identically as if they were one combined person?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 12, 2015, 09:43:44 AM
Another legal question, could the judge decide to rule (in the appeal) in favour of one of the 5 appellants and against another of the 5, or must the judge treat all 5 identically as if they were one combined person?

There is only one appellant, Gonçalo Amaral. The judge acquitted all of the others even though they divulged the same "theories" as Gonçalo Amaral because they, as normal citizens, had the right to say that the McCanns could have hidden Madeleine's body and simulated an abduction but he didn't as an ex-policeman. This means that, if the book, had been written by a journalist, there was no libel or lies in it to cause damages to the parents but with the name of Gonçalo Amaral on the cover it caused damages, even though the judge stated in the "factos provados" that the McCanns did not suffer significant damages!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 12, 2015, 11:00:14 AM
There is only one appellant, Gonçalo Amaral. The judge acquitted all of the others even though they divulged the same "theories" as Gonçalo Amaral because they, as normal citizens, had the right to say that the McCanns could have hidden Madeleine's body and simulated an abduction but he didn't as an ex-policeman. This means that, if the book, had been written by a journalist, there was no libel or lies in it to cause damages to the parents but with the name of Gonçalo Amaral on the cover it caused damages, even though the judge stated in the "factos provados" that the McCanns did not suffer significant damages!

Had it been written by A N Other how many copies woukd it have sold.  Even if a publisher could be found.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 12, 2015, 11:20:21 AM
Had it been written by A N Other how many copies woukd it have sold.  Even if a publisher could be found.

So, therefore, it is not the content of the book that matters. It only matters who wrote it and how much it sold? IMO that is a ridiculous argument!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 12, 2015, 11:23:52 AM
So, therefore, it is not the content of the book that matters. It only matters who wrote it and how much it sold? IMO that is a ridiculous argument!

Don't be stupid.  He wrote a book accusing grieving parents of committing crimes with no evidence or due process.  If he had not been the coordinator of the case nobody would have taken any notice. 

It seems amaral was arrogant enough to believe the rules didn't apply to him. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 12, 2015, 11:32:20 AM
There is only one appellant, Gonçalo Amaral. The judge acquitted all of the others even though they divulged the same "theories" as Gonçalo Amaral because they, as normal citizens, had the right to say that the McCanns could have hidden Madeleine's body and simulated an abduction but he didn't as an ex-policeman. This means that, if the book, had been written by a journalist, there was no libel or lies in it to cause damages to the parents but with the name of Gonçalo Amaral on the cover it caused damages, even though the judge stated in the "factos provados" that the McCanns did not suffer significant damages!

Why do you suppose that (as per the injunction until it was overturned!) all further sales of book or film have been barred?

And where is the confirmation Amaral has been granted leave to appeal?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 12, 2015, 12:54:19 PM
Don't be stupid.  He wrote a book accusing grieving parents of committing crimes with no evidence or due process.  If he had not been the coordinator of the case nobody would have taken any notice. 

It seems amaral was arrogant enough to believe the rules didn't apply to him.

The investigation suspected them of hiding their child's body and simulating an abduction and GA gave an account of that investigation. So, in your words, if anyone else had accused these "grieving parents of committing crimes with no evidence or due process" in a book, it was all right because nobody would have taken notice,
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 12, 2015, 12:57:01 PM
The investigation suspected them of hiding their child's body and simulating an abduction and GA gave an account of that investigation. So, in your words, if anyone else had accused these "grieving parents of committing crimes with no evidence or due process" in a book, it was all right because nobody would have taken notice,

A cross-section of the PJ contingent of the investigation considered that, or (possibly) pretended to consider it to test out their suspects.

Blatant misinterpretation of evidence.

But was that malicious?

Or incompetent?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 12, 2015, 01:20:19 PM
A cross-section of the PJ contingent of the investigation considered that, or (possibly) pretended to consider it to test out their suspects.

Blatant misinterpretation of evidence.

But was that malicious?

Or incompetent?

It would be less likey that the court woukd find against.  There are rules against police officers writing books accusing suspects, for obvious reasons.  Your friend amaral is a victim of his own arrogance.  Tough.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 12, 2015, 02:11:19 PM
The investigation suspected them of hiding their child's body and simulating an abduction and GA gave an account of that investigation. So, in your words, if anyone else had accused these "grieving parents of committing crimes with no evidence or due process" in a book, it was all right because nobody would have taken notice,

As co-ordinator of the investigation you are saying he had no input to the investigation and his theory carried no weight?

It certainly carried a lot more weight than ... what's his name &%+((£ ... who also wrote a book on the subject but who most of us had never heard of until mentioned by the trial judge.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 12, 2015, 03:18:52 PM
So where is the confirmation that justifies the title of this thread?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 12, 2015, 03:28:20 PM
I just wonder the judge might have played a canny hand in deliberately making the damage award (relatively!) modest, precisely so as to make it more difficult for Amaral to appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 12, 2015, 04:34:32 PM
So where is the confirmation that justifies the title of this thread?

It certainly isn't a State Secret if an appeal has been lodged ... so why has no one told us if one has been or not ... it might at least give people some information about whether they need to keep on making contributions to Mr Amaral's fund or if they can cancel their standing orders.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 12, 2015, 04:52:26 PM
It certainly isn't a State Secret if an appeal has been lodged ... so why has no one told us if one has been or not ... it might at least give people some information about whether they need to keep on making contributions to Mr Amaral's fund or if they can cancel their standing orders.

Thing is that if he hasn't lodged an appeal, or if he's lodged one that's been rejected, that's it!

The McCanns are outright winners at first instance ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 12, 2015, 04:58:56 PM
Thing is that if he hasn't lodged an appeal, or if he's lodged one that's been rejected, that's it!

The McCanns are outright winners at first instance ....

You can live in hope ferryman.  8(0(*

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 12, 2015, 05:12:33 PM
Thing is that if he hasn't lodged an appeal, or if he's lodged one that's been rejected, that's it!

The McCanns are outright winners at first instance ....

Red bit: If he hasn't made the time limit or it has been bounced already I think we would know don't you?
Blue bit: "outright" will depend on what the P & L looks like.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 12, 2015, 05:16:39 PM
Red bit: If he hasn't made the time limit or it has been bounced already I think we would know don't you?
Blue bit: "outright" will depend on what the P & L looks like.

Depends.

If he's not even entered an appeal, it might all just lie dormant.

Ms Baulch did promise there would be an announcement when the appeal had been lodged.

There has been no announcement.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 12, 2015, 06:01:53 PM
Just read this post, on another board elsewhere:

responding to:

"...still causing massive heartache amongst the remaining handful of cultists"

(Reply):

That's because they knew their only chance was to stop the gofundme page on day 1 - and they tried, and failed!

And now we look forward to news of Amaral's appeal being lodged next week.


Next week?

Too late already ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 12, 2015, 06:26:11 PM
Just read this post, on another board elsewhere:

responding to:

"...still causing massive heartache amongst the remaining handful of cultists"

(Reply):

That's because they knew their only chance was to stop the gofundme page on day 1 - and they tried, and failed!

And now we look forward to news of Amaral's appeal being lodged next week.


Next week?

Too late already ....

It's not too late! You still don't seem to understand that the first instance judge cannot stop the appeal from going to a higher court. That would be a denial of justice. The basis of appealing is that the arguments of the appellant are seen by different judges, that's the way it is in Portugal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 12, 2015, 06:28:38 PM
It's not too late! You still don't seem to understand that the first instance judge cannot stop the appeal from going to a higher court. That would be a denial of justice. The basis of appealing is that the arguments of the appellant are seen by different judges, that's the way it is in Portugal.

so montclair who wrongly told us that all questions asked by the pj had to be approved by the judge is now offering us more legal advice
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 12, 2015, 06:30:43 PM
It's not too late! You still don't seem to understand that the first instance judge cannot stop the appeal from going to a higher court. That would be a denial of justice. The basis of appealing is that the arguments of the appellant are seen by different judges, that's the way it is in Portugal.

He had 40 calendar days to appeal, from a point towards the end of April.

The 40 calendar days were up, about 4 days ago.

If he intends waiting until next week to lodge an appeal, he is too late.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: DCI on June 12, 2015, 06:32:42 PM
so montclair who wrongly told us that all questions asked by the pj had to be approved by the judge is now offering us more legal advice

I think she said legal advice was from her friends daughter (a lawyer). Now who has a daughter , who is supposed to be a lawyer?  £5%4%
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 12, 2015, 06:38:00 PM
Don't be stupid.  He wrote a book accusing grieving parents of committing crimes with no evidence or due process.  If he had not been the coordinator of the case nobody would have taken any notice. 

It seems amaral was arrogant enough to believe the rules didn't apply to him.

Even if he were considered guilty of not respecting the "dever de reserva" I don't see how would be worth € 500.000,00 plus interest to the McCanns when they didn't even suffer significant damages and they are the ones who are ultimately responsible for everything that has happened when they neglected their children. It was up to his hierarchy to sanction him and not a civil judge 7 years later. I wonder if there is a statute of limitations on this type of breach?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 12, 2015, 06:49:21 PM
Even if he were considered guilty of not respecting the "dever de reserva" I don't see how would be worth € 500.000,00 plus interest to the McCanns when they didn't even suffer significant damages and they are the ones who are ultimately responsible for everything that has happened when they neglected their children. It was up to his hierarchy to sanction him and not a civil judge 7 years later. I wonder if there is a statute of limitations on this type of breach?

The loss of a loved and cherished daughter is the most trivial loss of all.

And there always to blame the actions of an abductor/assailant on guardians.

Why James Bulger's mother was never locked up, I can't begin to imagine ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 12, 2015, 06:56:53 PM


Why James Bulger's mother was never locked up, I can't begin to imagine ....

Turnng ones head away from ones chld for 5 seconds is not a crime, your sarcasm doesnt help much
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 12, 2015, 07:16:24 PM
The loss of a loved and cherished daughter is the most trivial loss of all.

And there always to blame the actions of an abductor/assailant on guardians.

Why James Bulger's mother was never locked up, I can't begin to imagine ....

The loss of their child is a consequence of their lack of childcare.

There is no one else to blame ferryman for neglect.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 12, 2015, 07:20:46 PM
The loss of their child is a consequence of their lack of childcare.

There is no one else to blame ferryman for neglect.

I tend to look to incompetent duffers like Portuguese prosecutors for guidance on judgments like that.

They could find no evidence of neglect.

But then, what do they know?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 12, 2015, 07:24:55 PM
I tend to look to incompetent duffers like Portuguese prosecutors for guidance on judgments like that.

They could find no evidence of neglect.

But then, what do they know?

Well pretty obvious for the casual observer.

Parents left children in a fire risk for extended periods whilst drinking and eating.

More than sufficient in the UK to bring charges and a visit from social services.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 12, 2015, 10:02:25 PM
They FAILED in their duty of care to their kids  is what the prosecutor said...yiu left that out didnt you

I didn't leave anything out.

I just declined to invent anything.

I do think it possible that the prosecutors underestimated the frequency of checks.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on June 13, 2015, 08:42:00 AM
Well pretty obvious for the casual observer.

Parents left children in a fire risk for extended periods whilst drinking and eating.

More than sufficient in the UK to bring charges and a visit from social services.

They DID have a visit from Social Services,  do keep up!!    No charges.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 13, 2015, 08:55:13 AM
Well pretty obvious for the casual observer.

Parents left children in a fire risk for extended periods whilst drinking and eating.

More than sufficient in the UK to bring charges and a visit from social services.

As Lace has pointed out Social Services were involved but more to the point ...

** Snip
He has also campaigned for the parents of Madeleine McCann, who disappeared while on a family holiday in Portugal in 2007, to be prosecuted for child neglect and accused them of covering up what happened to their daughter, which led to the family successfully pursuing legal action against him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Bennett_(politician)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 13, 2015, 09:23:57 AM
As Lace has pointed out Social Services were involved but more to the point ...

** Snip
He has also campaigned for the parents of Madeleine McCann, who disappeared while on a family holiday in Portugal in 2007, to be prosecuted for child neglect and accused them of covering up what happened to their daughter, which led to the family successfully pursuing legal action against him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Bennett_(politician)

Bennett is irrelevant.

As to social services, they rarely reveal their findings.

However, there cases where parents have left their children by themselves, and they have been taken to court.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 13, 2015, 09:35:31 AM
Bennett is irrelevant.

As to social services, they rarely reveal their findings.

However, there cases where parents have left their children by themselves, and they have been taken to court.
no parents have been taken to court except in extreme cases
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 13, 2015, 09:36:41 AM
no parents have been taken to court except in extreme cases


This more than qualifies for that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 13, 2015, 09:42:36 AM

This more than qualifies for that.

no it doesn't.....cite a similar case..you cannot...a few parents  have accepted cautions but have not been taken to court...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 13, 2015, 09:45:26 AM
no it doesn't.....cite a similar case..you cannot...a few parents  have accepted cautions but have not been taken to court...

it has been done before dave.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 13, 2015, 09:46:26 AM
so montclair who wrongly told us that all questions asked by the pj had to be approved by the judge is now offering us more legal advice

Page 191 of the book "A Verdade da Mentira":

"...face à partida eminente para o Reino Unido do casal McCann, tomou-se a decisão de interrogá-los, antes de abandonarem o nosso país. Esta decisão foi devidamente ponderada, envolveu todos os elementos ligados à investigação, o Ministério Público e o Director Nacional da Polícia Judiciária."

"... with the eminent departure of the McCann couple for the UK, the decision was made to interrogate them, before they left our country. This decision was duly pondered, it involved all of the elements connected to the investigation, the Ministério Público (judges) and the National Director of the Judicial Police".

Obviously, the judge was involved and he would have to know which questions would be asked of the couple and which ones could incriminate them if they answered them, if they were to be made "arguidos".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 13, 2015, 09:57:59 AM
Page 191 of the book "A Verdade da Mentira":

"...face à partida eminente para o Reino Unido do casal McCann, tomou-se a decisão de interrogá-los, antes de abandonarem o nosso país. Esta decisão foi devidamente ponderada, envolveu todos os elementos ligados à investigação, o Ministério Público e o Director Nacional da Polícia Judiciária."

"... with the eminent departure of the McCann couple for the UK, the decision was made to interrogate them, before they left our country. This decision was duly pondered, it involved all of the elements connected to the investigation, the Ministério Público (judges) and the National Director of the Judicial Police".

Obviously, the judge was involved and he would have to know which questions would be asked of the couple and which ones could incriminate them if they answered them, if they were to be made "arguidos".

Why on earth do you cite Amaral's discredited book of lies as an 'authority' on anything?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 13, 2015, 10:04:36 AM
Why on earth do you cite Amaral's discredited book of lies as an 'authority' on anything?

When has the accidental death scenario been disproved ferryman ?

Talk about deja vu.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 13, 2015, 10:05:37 AM
Why on earth do you cite Amaral's discredited book of lies as an 'authority' on anything?

You would say that of course.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 13, 2015, 10:06:59 AM
You would say that of course.

He never does anything other than toe the mccann propaganda line.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 13, 2015, 10:10:21 AM

Any further Insults will be deleted.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 13, 2015, 10:42:35 AM


So ~ we have Mr Amaral asserting he will appeal the Court's decision.

As far as we know, the date for lodging an appeal was last Monday, and nothing from Mr Amaral saying he has done so.

Why the silence since the first interviews?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 13, 2015, 01:06:25 PM
We do know that amaral has form for making statements that are complete BS.....

MAY 2009....

Gonçalo Amaral: We are also going to court in another way, I'm going to proceed legally against the McCanns for defamation, and also for slanderous denunciations and false statements.

His silence now could well be a sign he has no grounds to appeal
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 13, 2015, 01:39:23 PM
If the donations made to GoFundMe are being paid directly into the BPI account, why is the PJGA page showing the total in £££s rather than Euros?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 13, 2015, 03:26:04 PM
If the donations made to GoFundMe are being paid directly into the BPI account, why is the PJGA page showing the total in £££s rather than Euros?
Probably because transfers from GFM to that account are in GBP, which are converted to Euros by the recipient bank.

BTW can you tell me (1) who is paying for the legal expenditure of Mr Amaral's opponents? and (2) what currency they do accounting in?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 13, 2015, 03:46:59 PM
Probably because transfers from GFM to that account are in GBP, which are converted to Euros by the recipient bank.

BTW can you tell me (1) who is paying for the legal expenditure of Mr Amaral's opponents? and (2) what currency they do accounting in?

The donations to GFM are also in dollars & Euros. GFM cannot pay funds directly into a Portuguese bank account. They are paid into a Stripe account which then transfers funds to PJGA. GFM deduct a fee, the owner of the Stripe account can stipulate a fee. Why isn't the net amount shown in Euros?

I'm not interested in who is funding the McCanns legal costs. I'm just interested in the set-up of PJGA & the silence from Amaral.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 13, 2015, 04:16:49 PM
The donations to GFM are also in dollars & Euros. GFM cannot pay funds directly into a Portuguese bank account. They are paid into a Stripe account which then transfers funds to PJGA. GFM deduct a fee, the owner of the Stripe account can stipulate a fee. Why isn't the net amount shown in Euros?

I'm not interested in who is funding the McCanns legal costs. I'm just interested in the set-up of PJGA & the silence from Amaral.
They are a payment processor not an intermediate account Misty.
The money is transferred from GFM directly to the destination bank account in Portugal.

The GFM appeal honestly and transparently states that this appeal is to help pay Mr Amaral's legal costs.

Which fund on the other side has had the honesty and transparency to say - "we are helping pay the legal expenditure in this libel case against Mr Amaral"?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 13, 2015, 05:02:23 PM
They are a payment processor not an intermediate account Misty.
The money is transferred from GFM directly to the destination bank account in Portugal.

The GFM appeal honestly and transparently states that this appeal is to help pay Mr Amaral's legal costs.

Which fund on the other side has had the honesty and transparency to say - "we are helping pay the legal expenditure in this libel case against Mr Amaral"?

About the Organizer
 Leanne Baulch
309 Facebook Friends | Verify Friendship
This person will receive your donation directly.
All payments are final and cannot be refunded.
Only give to people you know and trust.
https://www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA/donate


GFM have no provision to collect or transfer funds ... the money goes into the bank account of the organiser of the appeal.

Money laundering legislation makes the sort of transfer envisaged a bit of a minefield, particularly between countries ... I hope Ms Baulch or her advisers have taken appropriate steps to minimise any risk to her arising from such considerations ... as of course, with possible tax issues.
While that money is under her name ... it is hers.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 13, 2015, 08:32:46 PM
About the Organizer
 Leanne Baulch
309 Facebook Friends | Verify Friendship
This person will receive your donation directly.
All payments are final and cannot be refunded.
Only give to people you know and trust.
https://www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA/donate


GFM have no provision to collect or transfer funds ... the money goes into the bank account of the organiser of the appeal.

Money laundering legislation makes the sort of transfer envisaged a bit of a minefield, particularly between countries ... I hope Ms Baulch or her advisers have taken appropriate steps to minimise any risk to her arising from such considerations ... as of course, with possible tax issues.
While that money is under her name ... it is hers.

This is repeated over and over but without foundation. 

It will be a bank to bank transfer and the source of the money is traceable and has an audit trail via gofundme.  All payments are via credit or debit cards.

Tax?  The money is legally gifts. And not in return for any service.  Therefore it woukd not be taxable under any European or us legalisation.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 13, 2015, 08:52:10 PM
This is repeated over and over but without foundation. 

It will be a bank to bank transfer and the source of the money is traceable and has an audit trail via gofundme.  All payments are via credit or debit cards.

Tax?  The money is legally gifts. And not in return for any service.  Therefore it woukd not be taxable under any European or us legalisation.

I am not impugning Ms Baulch's integrity ... nor am I questioning the traceability of the donations ... I have stated that according to the web-site the money is paid into her bank account and while there is technically hers.

If it is to be considered as a gift when transferred I think the necessary steps would have to have been taken beforehand to ensure there will be no liability, JP.

For example, the fundraiser in the USA who found herself liable for tax did not do this and was hit for a whopping great bill because it was classed as taxable income.

**snip
The good news for Kate is that I think I found a reasonable solution that she and others could use to minimize or eliminate their tax liability.

Until the IRS provides clear guidance on the tax liability for being a good samaritan and raising funds for someone in need using crowdfunding, the best thing for someone to do is not put the crowdfunding account in their name and instead register it in the name and tax identification number of the person receiving the funds.

Alternatively, you can try to say the funds raised fall under a gift exemption or try to subtract out the donations on your tax return like this. That's a tactic you'd have to see if the IRS would accept and you should absolutely discuss this with your qualified tax preparer.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-rhode/crowdfunding-to-help-a-sick-friend-can-lead-to-a-big-tax-bill-for-you_b_6615616.html
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 13, 2015, 09:28:16 PM
Does the Find Madeleine Fund pay the legal expenditure of the 5 opponents against Mr Amaral in this libel case?
It should be a simple YES or NO answer.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 13, 2015, 09:33:47 PM
Does the Find Madeleine Fund pay the legal expenditure of the 5 opponents against Mr Amaral in this libel case?
It should be a simple YES or NO answer.

I don't know, but it's an interesting question.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 13, 2015, 10:10:59 PM
Does the Find Madeleine Fund pay the legal expenditure of the 5 opponents against Mr Amaral in this libel case?
It should be a simple YES or NO answer.
The only way anyone can know if its's a yes or no answer is by looking at their submitted accounts. The  2009 (when the action was started) and 2010 accounts confirm the Fund was used to sue Mr Amaral, after that, there is no mention. Which begs the question, if it was not coming out of the Fund, where was it coming from?

I wonder how much Duarte has charged them to date.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 14, 2015, 08:51:11 AM
Well, the fund continues to grow despite the efforts to have it stopped and the efforts to smear Leanne.

Legal Defence for Goncalo Amaral

£28,782 of £25k

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2015, 08:52:31 AM
Well, the fund continues to grow despite the efforts to have it stopped and the efforts to smear Leanne.

Legal Defence for Goncalo Amaral

£28,782 of £25k


more importantly...which you choose to ignore...still no news of an appeal
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on June 14, 2015, 09:41:03 AM
I'm surprised that at this juncture Amaral has not seen fit to at least personally thank his supporters for their sterling work on his behalf or to keep them up to speed on the progress of his appeal - especially in light of the deadline date having now passed.   He doesn't need to go into detail - just a general statement would do.

To ignore them in this way seems more than a tad discourteous to me.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 14, 2015, 09:52:34 AM
I'm surprised that at this juncture Amaral has not seen fit to at least personally thank his supporters for their sterling work on his behalf or to keep them up to speed on the progress of his appeal - especially in light of the deadline date having now passed.   He doesn't need to go into detail - just a general statement would do.

To ignore them in this way seems more than a tad discourteous to me.

Perhaps he has? Not everything on the internet is available to the public.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 14, 2015, 10:01:13 AM
Perhaps he has? Not everything on the internet is available to the public.

And not everything is on the internet, either.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on June 14, 2015, 10:07:24 AM
Perhaps he has? Not everything on the internet is available to the public.

If he has made a personal statement thanking his supporters etc. - then why would anyone want to keep it secret?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 14, 2015, 10:38:17 AM
If he has made a personal statement thanking his supporters etc. - then why would anyone want to keep it secret?

Why would they want to make it public? To attract more abuse?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 14, 2015, 10:47:18 AM
If he has made a personal statement thanking his supporters etc. - then why would anyone want to keep it secret?

Clue in that embolden word!

Amaral did thanks everyone for their support in a very humane and compassionate way, and it was posted on many blogs and the Nigels site.

 But if you leave your real name and number he may get back to you and explain it all. 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: carlymichelle on June 14, 2015, 11:32:20 AM
Clue in that embolden word!

Amaral did thanks everyone for their support in a very humane and compassionate way, and it was posted on many blogs and the Nigels site.

 But if you leave your real name and number he may get back to you and explain it all. 8**8:/:

his  fund and support  terrifys mcann supporters and they know it!!!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 14, 2015, 11:33:47 AM
his  fund and support  terrifys mcann supporters and they know it!!!

Don't be silly, Carly.  No one is terrified.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 14, 2015, 11:35:00 AM
I am. 8)><(
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 14, 2015, 11:39:56 AM
I am. 8)><(

There there, Anna will be along in a minute.

Anna.  Heeeelp.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 14, 2015, 12:19:17 PM
So, has there been any evidence to justify the title of this thread?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carew on June 14, 2015, 12:25:53 PM
There there, Anna will be along in a minute.

Anna.  Heeeelp.

Awww, bless!

Togetherness to help wee Alfie.     8)-)))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: carlymichelle on June 14, 2015, 12:30:56 PM
Awww, bless!

Togetherness to help wee Alfie.     8)-)))

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 14, 2015, 12:33:53 PM
Clue in that embolden word!

Amaral did thanks everyone for their support in a very humane and compassionate way, and it was posted on many blogs and the Nigels site.

 But if you leave your real name and number he may get back to you and explain it all. 8**8:/:

Perhaps you'd provide the necessary link?
How recent was this statement of gratitude?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 14, 2015, 01:20:12 PM
Why is this now coming up from the gofundme account?

http://www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on June 14, 2015, 01:29:22 PM
Why is this now coming up from the gofundme account?

http://www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA

Site appears to be down.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 14, 2015, 01:34:15 PM
Site appears to be down.

Temporary site blip?

Maybe ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 14, 2015, 01:34:26 PM
Site appears to be down.
Maybe the huge volume of donations recently has broken it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 14, 2015, 01:39:37 PM
Perhaps you'd provide the necessary link?
How recent was this statement of gratitude?

I wouldn't mind having sight of Mr Amaral's statement of gratitude.  I am really quite interested in why it is described as "humane and compassionate".
A link to it would be appreciated, and who knows he might drop a hint as to whether or not his appeal against injustice has been lodged.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 14, 2015, 01:43:17 PM
Maybe the huge volume of donations recently has broken it.

Or maybe one or two people have asked probing questions about the exact status of Mr Amaral's appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 14, 2015, 01:45:07 PM
Back up again.

As you were before .....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 14, 2015, 01:45:17 PM
Don't worry mccann supporters, the site is up and working. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 14, 2015, 01:45:48 PM
I have no problem getting into the site.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 14, 2015, 01:48:58 PM
If I click on it from here, it doesn't work. If I open a new tab, it does.

It may have been a glitch due to maintenance.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 14, 2015, 02:21:29 PM
If I click on it from here, it doesn't work. If I open a new tab, it does.

It may have been a glitch due to maintenance.

Possibly.

But I do hope someone has checked the true status of Amaral's appeal ...

In the meanwhile, I guess Ms Baulch will continue issuing  patronising you're all very good boys and girls pats on the head to the faithful for just as long as such gestures keep the money rolling in ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: carlymichelle on June 14, 2015, 02:23:02 PM
Possibly.

But I do hope someone has checked the true status of Amaral's appeal ...

why?? it is none of your buisness
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 14, 2015, 02:27:32 PM
Possibly.

But I do hope someone has checked the true status of Amaral's appeal ...

In the meanwhile, I guess Ms Baulch will continue issuing  patronising you're all very good boys and girls pats on the head to the faithful for just as long as such gestures keep the money rolling in ....

It would appear that this a source of irritation to you.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: carlymichelle on June 14, 2015, 02:29:17 PM
It would appear that this a source of irritation to you.

you have to wonder why??? it is none of his or the mcann supporters concern they dont need to worry their pretty little heads do they   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on June 14, 2015, 02:37:57 PM
his  fund and support  terrifys mcann supporters and they know it!!!
Sorry ?

 %£5&%

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 14, 2015, 02:49:49 PM
why?? it is none of your buisness

The same could be said of donations to the McCann fund, wouldn't you agree? Or is that somehow different?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 15, 2015, 12:59:25 AM
Recently we noticed that one of the advertised "objects" (aims) of the  FMF money-raising site was an ex-aim which had run down the curtains and ceased to be at company house several years ago. Have they fixed their site yet? To be sure some of the generous FMF supporters on this forum must have visited FMF this week to make their weekly FMF donation and will be able to tell us? Anyone?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 15, 2015, 01:44:45 AM
Recently we noticed that one of the advertised "objects" (aims) of the  FMF money-raising site was an ex-aim which had run down the curtains and ceased to be at company house several years ago. Have they fixed their site yet? To be sure some of the generous FMF supporters on this forum must have visited FMF this week to make their weekly FMF donation and will be able to tell us? Anyone?

I don't think they need our money these days, so sorry, no, have never donated to the fund.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 15, 2015, 01:47:51 AM
Is there anyone here who donated to FMF this year?
Please don't all reply at once, the vast quantity of traffic might bring the internet down.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 15, 2015, 01:55:30 AM
Leanne has stated the gofundme appeal's single aim very clearly and transparently.
For comparision is anyone here willing to visit the FMF site, and post here their advertised aims ("objects")?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 15, 2015, 02:04:21 AM
From the site tonight - is this what you want?

Support: Donations

The full objects of the Fund are:

To secure the safe return to her family of Madeleine McCann who was abducted in Praia da Luz, Portugal on Thursday 3rd May 2007;
To procure that Madeleine's abduction is thoroughly investigated and that her abductors, as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them, are identified and brought to justice; and
To provide support, including financial assistance, to Madeleine's family.
If the above objects are fulfilled then the objects of the Foundation shall be to pursue such purposes in similar cases arising in the United Kingdom, Portugal or elsewhere.
               -------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright
All content appearing on this Web site is the property of:

Madeleine's Fund
P.O. Box 9880
Leicester
LE7 7UJ
Copyright © 2013-2015 Madeleine's Fund. All rights reserved. As a user, you are authorized only to view, copy, print, and distribute documents on this Web site so long as (1) the document is used for informational purposes only, and (2) any copy of the document (or portion thereof) includes the following copyright notice: Copyright © 2013-2015 Madeleine's Fund. All rights reserved.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 15, 2015, 02:08:05 AM
Leanne has stated the gofundme appeal's single aim very clearly and transparently.
For comparision is anyone here willing to visit the FMF site, and post here their advertised aims ("objects")?

Her appeal quite clearly states all the money is going to her account. It is the lack of transparency after it reaches the Stripe account which is the problem, I think. Some of the Amaral supporters have expressed concern & haven't had a satisfactory answer, especially over the question of refunds.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 15, 2015, 02:32:59 AM
From the site tonight - is this what you want?

Support: Donations

The full objects of the Fund are:

To secure the safe return to her family of Madeleine McCann who was abducted in Praia da Luz, Portugal on Thursday 3rd May 2007;
To procure that Madeleine's abduction is thoroughly investigated and that her abductors, as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them, are identified and brought to justice; and
To provide support, including financial assistance, to Madeleine's family.
If the above objects are fulfilled then the objects of the Foundation shall be to pursue such purposes in similar cases arising in the United Kingdom, Portugal or elsewhere.
               -------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright
All content appearing on this Web site is the property of:

Madeleine's Fund
P.O. Box 9880
Leicester
LE7 7UJ
Copyright © 2013-2015 Madeleine's Fund. All rights reserved. As a user, you are authorized only to view, copy, print, and distribute documents on this Web site so long as (1) the document is used for informational purposes only, and (2) any copy of the document (or portion thereof) includes the following copyright notice: Copyright © 2013-2015 Madeleine's Fund. All rights reserved.
Thanks misty I would appreciate it if you would please save a screen shot.
I needed that help to be able to say the following without being at risk of being "cruckedn2doored".

The third "object" you have verified today reads as follows:
"To provide support, including financial assistance, to Madeleine's family."

If you are correct, then that fund is making a false statement. That clause was removed from the official company documents several years ago as anyone can easily confirm if they have access to Company House documents.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 15, 2015, 02:45:05 AM
Her appeal quite clearly states all the money is going to her account. It is the lack of transparency after it reaches the Stripe account which is the problem, I think. Some of the Amaral supporters have expressed concern & haven't had a satisfactory answer, especially over the question of refunds.
No, she states that all money goes direct to the PJGA BPI account.
You are quoting a generic GFM sentence.
BTW who pays the multiple lawyers of the 5 people opposing Mr Amaral in this case?
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 15, 2015, 02:58:59 AM
Thanks misty I would appreciate it if you would please save a screen shot.
I needed that help to be able to say the following without being at risk of being "cruckedn2doored".

The third "object" you have verified today reads as follows:
"To provide support, including financial assistance, to Madeleine's family."

If you are correct, then that fund is making a false statement. That clause was removed from the official company documents several years ago as anyone can easily confirm if they have access to Company House documents.

I have taken a screen shot. At the risk of sounding ignorant, how to I add a date to it? (Windows 8.1)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 15, 2015, 03:14:13 AM
I have taken a screen shot. At the risk of sounding ignorant, how to I add a date to it? (Windows 8.1)
No need Misty, and thanks. Yours posts are sufficient to prove I did not invent the fact that "To provide support including financial assistance to Madeleine's family" is still being advertised today.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 15, 2015, 03:23:19 AM
No, she states that all money goes direct to the PJGA BPI account.
You are quoting a generic GFM sentence.
BTW who pays the multiple lawyers of the 5 people opposing Mr Amaral in this case?

Just because something is stated on the internet doesn't make it true! We don't know who controls the PJGA blog or the BPI account. It would just be proper & correct for her to post a copy of the transfer details so everyone can see that things are above board. TBH I don't care if anyone wishes to donate to GA's fund - that's up to them if they can't see it doesn't help Madeleine in any way whatsoever - but it does bother me if this case is being used for illicit purposes yet again.
As for who pays the McCanns legal fees - I have absolutely no idea. I'm not involved with any of the people "in the know".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 15, 2015, 03:36:42 AM
Just because something is stated on the internet doesn't make it true! We don't know who controls the PJGA blog or the BPI account. It would just be proper & correct for her to post a copy of the transfer details so everyone can see that things are above board. TBH I don't care if anyone wishes to donate to GA's fund - that's up to them if they can't see it doesn't help Madeleine in any way whatsoever - but it does bother me if this case is being used for illicit purposes yet again.
As for who pays the McCanns legal fees - I have absolutely no idea. I'm not involved with any of the people "in the know".
Why not apply equal scrutiny to both funds?
Some peeps are very keen to question the details of how Mr Amaral's lawyer gets paid, but seem happy to not even know or question who or what fund pays the much higher costs of the portugese and english lawyers who represent the five individuals who started this whole court case by applying for an ex-parte (secret) injunction against Mr Amaral.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 15, 2015, 04:08:06 AM
PJGA GFM donations since Apr 29 = 1800+
FMF donations since Apr 29 = ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 06:29:03 AM
Someone might end up with a slightly red face if it turns out Amaral has not been granted leave to appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 15, 2015, 10:01:24 AM
Someone might end up with a slightly red face if it turns out Amaral has not been granted leave to appeal.

Why do you keep repeating this, you sound like a broken record. Gonçalo Amaral cannot be denied leave to appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 10:05:28 AM
Why do you keep repeating this, you sound like a broken record. Gonçalo Amaral cannot be denied leave to appeal.

Where is the confirmation that he has been granted leave to appeal?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 15, 2015, 10:09:57 AM
Why do you keep repeating this, you sound like a broken record. Gonçalo Amaral cannot be denied leave to appeal.


Has there been a miscalculation on the final date for submission of an appeal?  We understood it to be last Monday.

If an appeal has been lodged ... why not simply say so?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on June 15, 2015, 10:15:56 AM

Has there been a miscalculation on the final date for submission of an appeal?  We understood it to be last Monday.

If an appeal has been lodged ... why not simply say so?

This subject becomes more puzzling by the day. £5%4%
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 15, 2015, 10:25:09 AM
Is it mandatory for such appeals to be publicly announced?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 10:38:45 AM
Is it mandatory for such appeals to be publicly announced?

Mandatory?

Can't think of a single reason why anyone would want to keep such a thing quiet, and Ms Baulch did promise an announcement when the appeal had been lodged.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 15, 2015, 10:46:03 AM
Presumably she hasn't yet been told - just like the rest of us.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 10:47:12 AM
Presumably she hasn't been told - just like the rest of us.

Why would Amaral keep it quiet if he has been granted leave to appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 10:49:06 AM
Why would Amaral keep it quiet if he has been granted leave to appeal?

Spoilers.

By your logic it would also be known if he hadn't.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 15, 2015, 10:57:34 AM
Spoilers.

By your logic it would also be known if he hadn't.

Indeed, I'm sure the little lawyer would be shouting it from the rooftops if that were true.

Perhaps there's an injunction  8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 10:59:15 AM
Spoilers.

By your logic it would also be known if he hadn't.

Not at all.

Why would Amaral be straining at the leach to tell the world he had been denied leave to appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 11:00:22 AM
Not at all.

Why would Amaral be straining at the leach to tell the world he had been denied leave to appeal?

 @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on June 15, 2015, 11:01:12 AM
Indeed, I'm sure the little lawyer would be shouting it from the rooftops if that were true.

Perhaps there's an injunction  8(0(*

An interesting thought bearing in mind the strange way the last verdict was released.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 11:04:27 AM
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

But I can't think of a single reason why he would be reticent about telling the world he had been granted leave to appeal.

Can you?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 11:05:59 AM
But I can't think of a single reason why he would be reticent about telling the world he had been granted leave to appeal.

Can you?


and that works for the mccanns as well. 8)--))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 11:07:17 AM

and that works for the mccanns as well. 8)--))

What does?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 11:11:55 AM
What does?


Now if the mccanns knew no appeal was lodged, we would hear from the SOURCES. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 15, 2015, 11:12:41 AM
What does?

You must get it into your head that things don't work the same as they do in the UK. The first instance judge cannot deny the appellant the right to appeal to the higher courts, if he fulfills the 4 bureaucratic requirement. If she does not agree with his arguments, she maintains her verdict and then sends the appeal on to the Tribunal da Relação. The judge can't say "I don't like your arguments and your appeal can't go to the higher court".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 11:16:25 AM
You must get it into your head that things don't work the same as they do in the UK. The first instance judge cannot deny the appellant the right to appeal to the higher courts, if he fulfills the 4 bureaucratic requirement. If she does not agree with his arguments, she maintains her verdict and then sends the appeal on to the Tribunal da Relação. The judge can't say "I don't like your arguments and your appeal can't go to the higher court".

There is no automatic right of appeal.

Grounds of appeal must be submitted, assessed and either granted or denied.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 11:23:08 AM
There is no automatic right of appeal.

Grounds of appeal must be submitted, assessed and either granted or denied.

First you were an expert in dog handling, now in Portuguese Law .....................


Oh dear. &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 15, 2015, 11:25:38 AM
Is it mandatory for such appeals to be publicly announced?


Don't you think it might be a courtesy to those supporters who have contributed and continue to contribute to his defence fund?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 15, 2015, 11:30:45 AM
Maybe, but personally I don't see the big deal. 
As far as I can see, the only ones getting worked up about this are those who dislike the idea of this fund in the first place. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 11:34:21 AM
Maybe, but personally I don't see the big deal. 
As far as I can see, the only ones getting worked up about this are those who dislike the idea of this fund in the first place.

Exactly Jassi.

As the saying goes, patience is a virtue.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 15, 2015, 11:57:46 AM
Maybe, but personally I don't see the big deal. 
As far as I can see, the only ones getting worked up about this are those who dislike the idea of this fund in the first place.

There are some who have contributed to the fund who may be beginning to get "worked up" about the lack of information coming out of Portugal, if I am interpreting what I am reading in other places correctly.

If you think it is no big deal not to give out information on the status of an appeal after the flurry of the initial indignant interviews from the proposed appellant ... you would appear to evidence much the same disregard for his supporters as Mr Amaral does by failing to keep them informed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 12:00:18 PM
There are some who have contributed to the fund who may be beginning to get "worked up" about the lack of information coming out of Portugal, if I am interpreting what I am reading in other places correctly.

If you think it is no big deal not to give out information on the status of an appeal after the flurry of the initial indignant interviews from the proposed appellant ... you would appear to evidence much the same disregard for his supporters as Mr Amaral does by failing to keep them informed.

Well put, Brietta ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 15, 2015, 12:13:51 PM
There are some who have contributed to the fund who may be beginning to get "worked up" about the lack of information coming out of Portugal, if I am interpreting what I am reading in other places correctly.

If you think it is no big deal not to give out information on the status of an appeal after the flurry of the initial indignant interviews from the proposed appellant ... you would appear to evidence much the same disregard for his supporters as Mr Amaral does by failing to keep them informed.

I have  no doubt you are misinterpreting the situation for your own purposes. and I have absolutely no interest in Amaral's supporters or their activities,
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 15, 2015, 12:25:54 PM
An interesting thought bearing in mind the strange way the last verdict was released.


Where are the protestations about freedom of speech and the accompanying images of Mr Amaral's face complete with sticky tape covered mouth, if there was an injunction in place?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 15, 2015, 12:31:04 PM
I have  no doubt you are misinterpreting the situation for your own purposes. and I have absolutely no interest in Amaral's supporters or their activities,


That is a bit of a value judgement.

Mr Amaral's supporters are financing his campaign fund ... and you appear to have expressed an interest by your comments on that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 15, 2015, 12:32:10 PM

That is a bit of a value judgement.

Mr Amaral's supporters are financing his campaign fund ... and you appear to have expressed an interest by your comments on that.

Another bit of misinterpretation on your part.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 12:51:42 PM
Well......................


http://pjga.blogspot.nl/2015/06/update-appeal-filed.html
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 12:58:58 PM
Well......................


http://pjga.blogspot.nl/2015/06/update-appeal-filed.html

I was just looking at that.

Appeal submitted.

By the McCanns ....

If it was filed this morning, then it was filed after the deadline for submissions, presumably against the finding that Amaral's book did not harm the search for Madeleine?

Why were the McCanns allowed to submit it late?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 01:00:56 PM
I was just looking at that.

Appeal submitted.

By the McCanns ....

You do understand what the site said, don't you ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 15, 2015, 01:05:19 PM
PROJECTO JUSTIÇA GONÇALO AMARAL

Update: Appeal filed
15 June 2015

Gonçalo Amaral's appeal in the civil case that has been presented against him by the McCann family has been filed this morning.

Thank you to each and every one of you that has shown support for Mr Amaral. There are no words to adequately express our gratitude.

 We will keep you updated on any developments.

 Thank you so very much.

www.pjga.blogspot.nl/2015/06/update-appeal-filed.html
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 01:05:44 PM
You do understand what the site said, don't you ?

Gonçalo Amaral's appeal in the civil case that has been presented against him by the McCann family has been filed this morning.

I know what is says.

It says that the McCanns have appealed against Amaral.

And it seems they were allowed to submit their appeal late.

Was it meant to say something different?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 01:06:30 PM
Gonçalo Amaral's appeal in the civil case that has been presented against him by the McCann family has been filed this morning.

I know what is says.

It says that the McCanns have appealed against Amaral.

And it seems they were allowed to submit their appeal late.

Was it meant to say something different?

Oh dear.

Read again.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 01:08:03 PM
Gonçalo Amaral's appeal in the civil case that has been presented against him by the McCann family has been filed this morning.

I know what is says.

It says that the McCanns have appealed against Amaral.

And it seems they were allowed to submit their appeal late.

Was it meant to say something different?

ETA: I suppose the McCanns could be challenging the finding that Amaral's book did not harm the search for Madeleine ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 01:15:08 PM
Gonçalo Amaral's appeal in the civil case that has been presented against him by the McCann family has been filed this morning.

I know what is says.

It says that the McCanns have appealed against Amaral.

And it seems they were allowed to submit their appeal late.

Was it meant to say something different?

It doesn't say that ferryman.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 15, 2015, 01:15:43 PM
ETA: I suppose the McCanns could be challenging the finding that Amaral's book did not harm the search for Madeleine ....

No. The McCanns have filed nothing. Lets rearrange the sentence.

Gonçalo Amaral's appeal (in the civil case that has been presented against him by the McCann family) has been filed this morning.

The important information is in bold. The information in brackets is just a description of what the appeal is about.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 15, 2015, 01:17:01 PM
Oh dear.

Read again.
It is poorly worded, rather like her translations of the PJ files.
Cue another 6 months of silence as the wheels of Portuguese justice trundle slowly through the upper echelons.
Meanwhile, kerching, kerching.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 01:17:10 PM
No. The McCanns have filed nothing. Lets rearrange the sentence.

Gonçalo Amaral's appeal (in the civil case that has been presented against him by the McCann family) has been filed this morning.

The important information is in bold. The information in brackets is just a description of what the appeal is about.

You might need to type that in a larger font. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 01:18:16 PM
It is poorly worded, rather like her translations of the PJ files.
Cue another 6 months of silence as the wheels of Portuguese justice trundle slowly through the upper echelons.
Meanwhile, kerching, kerching.

It is poorly worded, I agree, but the meaning is clear.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 01:21:17 PM
You might need to type that in a larger font. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

So now we've got syntax out of the way, where is there independent corroboration that Amaral's grounds of appeal have been accepted?

And why was he allowed to submit after the deadline for appeals?

ETA: The other point that's not clear is whether his submission has been accepted, or whether it is still under consideration.

If it was filed (late!) this morning, then it is presumably still under consideration ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 01:23:02 PM
So now we've got syntax out of the way, where is there independent corroboration that Amaral's grounds of appeal have been accepted?

And why was he allowed to submit after the deadline for appeals?

Wait and see.

Enjoy the anticipation. 8)--))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 15, 2015, 01:24:28 PM
It is poorly worded, rather like her translations of the PJ files.
Cue another 6 months of silence as the wheels of Portuguese justice trundle slowly through the upper echelons.
Meanwhile, kerching, kerching.

Come now, Misty.  Lawyers gotta eat....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 15, 2015, 01:25:12 PM
It is poorly worded, rather like her translations of the PJ files.
Cue another 6 months of silence as the wheels of Portuguese justice trundle slowly through the upper echelons.
Meanwhile, kerching, kerching.

The McCanns have certainly done their bit towards keeping the legal profession in Portugal employed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 01:25:50 PM
Come now, Misty.  Lawyers gotta eat....

and that JP is why they love this case.

On and on and on................
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 01:29:55 PM
No. The McCanns have filed nothing. Lets rearrange the sentence.

Gonçalo Amaral's appeal (in the civil case that has been presented against him by the McCann family) has been filed this morning.

The important information is in bold. The information in brackets is just a description of what the appeal is about.

Yes.

OK

Thank you for that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 15, 2015, 01:32:36 PM
Well, the fund rolls on. Happy lawyers lol.

Legal Defence for Goncalo Amaral

£29,155 of £25k
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 15, 2015, 01:34:18 PM
Come now, Misty.  Lawyers gotta eat....

I'm just wondering how Amaral's going to eat - or does he get meal allowances for waiting time under the definition of expenses?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 15, 2015, 01:37:34 PM
Yes.

OK

Thank you for that.

You're welcome   8((()*/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 15, 2015, 01:38:34 PM
I'm just wondering how Amaral's going to eat - or does he get meal allowances for waiting time under the definition of expenses?

I don't really think we need concern ourselves with that.

Amaral enjoys a pension which is about 17% above the average income for a Portuguese family. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2015, 01:43:38 PM
So now we've got syntax out of the way, where is there independent corroboration that Amaral's grounds of appeal have been accepted?

And why was he allowed to submit after the deadline for appeals?

ETA: The other point that's not clear is whether his submission has been accepted, or whether it is still under consideration.

If it was filed (late!) this morning, then it is presumably still under consideration ....

It's not clear while "filed" actually means. There was the 5-day clarification period beyond the initial timeframe to take into account (whether or not it was needed in this case) and which has now expired.

And therefore if notice of a dismissal of the appeal hasn't been received by this expiry date, then it would seem logical to assume that it has been accepted.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 01:48:38 PM
Surely you realize he wouln't be allowed to file an appeal, if the period he was allowed to do it had expired ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: carlymichelle on June 15, 2015, 01:50:14 PM
whohoo just read the good news about GA   8@??)(
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2015, 01:56:35 PM
So, what's next: 30 - 40 days for the McCanns to rebut the grounds, plus the 5-day clarification period?

Does the judge only write her legal opinion once she has both in hand? Or is her legal opinion based solely on the contents of the appellant's submission?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2015, 01:57:25 PM
Surely you realize he wouln't be allowed to file an appeal, if the period he was allowed to do it had expired ?

I amended my post to make it clearer.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 02:00:32 PM
I amended my post to make it clearer.

No problemo.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 15, 2015, 02:01:32 PM
whohoo just read the good news about GA   8@??)(

Be careful what you wish for Carly.  Appeals can be a double edged sword...  8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 02:06:16 PM
Be careful what you wish for Carly.  Appeals can be a double edged sword...  8(0(*

Or not.  8((()*/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 02:35:38 PM
No doubt there will be confirmation in the mainstream press that Amaral has been allowed his appeal.

Won't there?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 15, 2015, 02:43:39 PM
No doubt there will be confirmation in the mainstream press that Amaral has been allowed his appeal.

Won't there?

I imagine the Portuguese press will report and would be very surprised if they failed to do so.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2015, 02:52:28 PM
What's newsworthy about the idea that he's lodged an appeal? Wouldn't it be more or less assumed that he would?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 02:56:35 PM
What's newsworthy about the idea that he's lodged an appeal? Wouldn't it be more or less assumed that he would?

I would fully expect that to make the Portuguese press.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 15, 2015, 02:59:13 PM
An opportunity for a good headline?

'Disgraced ex-cop extends the McCann's agony by appealing against the libel decision'

'Disgraced ex cop appeals libel decision thanks to vile internet trolls fund raising to pay his legal bills'

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 15, 2015, 02:59:39 PM
Or not.  8((()*/

That does not make sense Stephen.  All appeals carry a risk. 

The higher court can review the judgement, and apart from the costs issue it is possible they may increase the award, especially if they continue the method of assessing damages pursued by the lower court. 

But as always, time will tell. 

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 15, 2015, 03:22:05 PM
An opportunity for a good headline?

'Disgraced ex-cop extends the McCann's agony by appealing against the libel decision'

'Disgraced ex cop appeals libel decision thanks to vile internet trolls fund raising to pay his legal bills'

Or even " McCann fury at decision of disgraced ex cop to  appeal libel decision thanks to vile internet trolls fund raising to pay his legal bills"

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 15, 2015, 03:27:34 PM
Just seen this posted elsewhere http://pjga.blogspot.nl/2015/06/update-appeal-filed.html
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 15, 2015, 03:47:47 PM
Just seen this posted elsewhere http://pjga.blogspot.nl/2015/06/update-appeal-filed.html

The GoFundMe link has been removed!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 15, 2015, 03:54:47 PM
Really - from where? Seems to work for me  http://www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA

Currently stands at £29,345
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 04:14:17 PM
That does not make sense Stephen.  All appeals carry a risk. 

The higher court can review the judgement, and apart from the costs issue it is possible they may increase the award, especially if they continue the method of assessing damages pursued by the lower court. 

But as always, time will tell.

I do know that JP.

The last time Amaral appealed the initial decision was overturned.

This case will just drag on.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 15, 2015, 04:17:04 PM
Really - from where? Seems to work for me  http://www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA

Currently stands at £29,345

Your original link was to the PJGA BlogSpot, not GoFundMe. The GFM link did not load on the BlogSpot when I looked - I should have taken a screenshot.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 15, 2015, 04:23:06 PM
Your original link was to the PJGA BlogSpot, not GoFundMe. The GFM link did not load on the BlogSpot when I looked - I should have taken a screenshot.

Well it works for me - right hand side just below Paypal logo and picture of Amaral.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 15, 2015, 05:25:33 PM
I do know that JP.

The last time Amaral appealed the initial decision was overturned.

This case will just drag on.

You may be forgetting that was an appeal / review of an ex parte judgement.  The book ban was overturned but not the sequestration of funds.

This is an appeal of a full case where both sides presented their evidence to the court. 

My view is that it's a bit early for either "side" to be jumping for joy. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 05:29:20 PM
You may be forgetting that was an appeal / review of an ex parte judgement.  The book ban was overturned but not the sequestration of funds.

This is an appeal of a full case where both sides presented their evidence to the court. 

My view is that it's a bit early for either "side" to be jumping for joy.

What an earth could be the defence of Amaral's proven, manifest and fundamental lies?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 05:31:37 PM
Since there have been no reports of Amaral sacking his (latest!) lawyer, I suppose, we can trust this latest, apparent, development ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 15, 2015, 05:34:00 PM
What an earth could be the defence of Amaral's proven, manifest and fundamental lies?

The trial wasn't about truth or lies, but about damage.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2015, 05:34:28 PM
Seeing as you're here JP...

What assets were actually sequestered as part of this case as opposed to any concerning prior debts and what would the cut-off point have been for any income related to the book / docu drama / interviews... ? Would that have been any proven income received or due as of when the injunction was accepted, up until the end of 2009 or what?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 05:35:28 PM
The trial wasn't about truth or lies, but about damage.

That's daft.

Damage arises as a result of something (in the case of libel) proven lies (at least in Portugal).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 15, 2015, 05:38:59 PM
So, let's say Amaral wins some concessions on appeal, or even has the verdict overturned.  I understand it is then over to the McCanns to appeal that decision, right?  Then, if they succeed is it back to Amaral to appeal again?  &%+((£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 05:41:04 PM
So, let's say Amaral wins some concessions on appeal, or even has the verdict overturned.  I understand it is then over to the McCanns to appeal that decision, right?  Then, if they succeed is it back to Amaral to appeal again?  &%+((£

That's the ding-dong nature of appeals.

I'm puzzled that this latest development is not reported in the mainstream media ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 15, 2015, 05:42:27 PM
Seeing as you're here JP...

What assets were actually sequestered as part of this case as opposed to any concerning prior debts and what would the cut-off point have been for any income related to the book / docu drama / interviews... ? Would that have been any proven income received or due as of when the injunction was accepted, up until the end of 2009 or what?

Interesting point.  Clearly some of the royalties due to Amaral had been paid over, and it seems paid to his limited company.  Hence the earring, the Jag and the parties, not to mention the titfer and the sharp suit. 

So the court would have been able to freeze the bank account of the company, the royalties due but not yet paid from the publisher, and prevent transfer or sale of copyright of the book and documentary. 

So no idea exactly how much, but probably quite a substantial sum.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 15, 2015, 05:44:57 PM
You may be forgetting that was an appeal / review of an ex parte judgement.  The book ban was overturned but not the sequestration of funds.

This is an appeal of a full case where both sides presented their evidence to the court. 

My view is that it's a bit early for either "side" to be jumping for joy.


I only hope it isn't going to drag on for another five years, because I think that benefits no-one.

The way I see it at present is that the only pressure now on the Drs McCann is the progress in the search for what may have happened to Madeleine.

I think the reopening of the case particularly by the PJ has led to a lot of people re-evaluating the situation.  I also think the decision against Mr Amaral, which is subject to appeal, has been effectively a moral victory for Madeleine's parents which is not going to be wiped out.

I agree there are pitfalls in any appeal. 
If it is the amount of the award ... that could actually be increased and were the McCann legal team able to have some of the verbal contributions from contributors to Mr Amaral's fund introduced, that too could possibly have an effect.  Particularly those including comments which call the Portuguese Justice System into question.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 06:00:32 PM

I only hope it isn't going to drag on for another five years, because I think that benefits no-one.

The way I see it at present is that the only pressure now on the Drs McCann is the progress in the search for what may have happened to Madeleine.

I think the reopening of the case particularly by the PJ has led to a lot of people re-evaluating the situation.  I also think the decision against Mr Amaral, which is subject to appeal, has been effectively a moral victory for Madeleine's parents which is not going to be wiped out.

I agree there are pitfalls in any appeal. 
If it is the amount of the award ... that could actually be increased and were the McCann legal team able to have some of the verbal contributions from contributors to Mr Amaral's fund introduced, that too could possibly have an effect.  Particularly those including comments which call the Portuguese Justice System into question.

I guess Ms Baulch isn't satisfied Amaral's position is financially secure, yet, because the appeal goes on ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2015, 06:02:30 PM
Interesting point.  Clearly some of the royalties due to Amaral had been paid over, and it seems paid to his limited company.  Hence the earring, the Jag and the parties, not to mention the titfer and the sharp suit. 

So the court would have been able to freeze the bank account of the company, the royalties due but not yet paid from the publisher, and prevent transfer or sale of copyright of the book and documentary. 

So no idea exactly how much, but probably quite a substantial sum.

Thanks, but I'm still not sure when the cut-off date was. Hmm. The injunction went through so many twists and turns that due income may have been legal at one point, then not at another, then legal again...

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 15, 2015, 06:04:07 PM
Posted by portugalpress on June 15, 2015
Maddie cop launches appeal against McCann’s record damages ‘win’ of €500,000


Following a huge crowd-funding drive that has raised over £29,000 from well-wishers almost exclusively from the UK, former police inspector Gonçalo Amaral has today filed his appeal against the €500,000-plus damages awarded against him in a civil case taken out by the parents of Madeleine McCann.

The Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral published the news this morning, thanking “each and every one” of the nearly 2000 people who have given money to the British gofundme appeal that has helped take Amaral’s legal fight to its next stage.

As the message went out, donations continued apace - with over £390 raised in a matter of hours.

Several of the day’s donors commented this was “news worth celebrating”, but more than one suggested the story is “unlikely to be covered by mainstream media”.

Indeed, by coincidence British media is much more focused today on Madeleine’s mother Kate who is leading a bike ride for a missing people’s charity.

Kate McCann has told reporters that she is “really encouraged” by progress being made by police in the eight-year hunt for her daughter.

Meantime, the gofundme appeal - started by a young Birmingham woman who was only 14 when Madeleine went missing - is set to continue.

Updates are promised - though with the speed of Portuguese justice it is anyone’s guess when Amaral’s appeal will be set a date for hearing.

As readers may be aware, the long-running civil case taken out by Madeleine’s parents centred on claims Amaral made in his book The Truth of the Lie in which he suggested the McCanns had faked their daughter’s abduction.

The McCann’s said the book caused them “devastation, desperation, anxiety and pain”.

Amaral’s supporters however claim they “will not let this case pass into obscurity” and “do not tolerate the leaving of unanswered questions”.

natasha.donn@algarveresident.com

- See more at: http://portugalresident.com/maddie-cop-launches-appeal-against-mccann%E2%80%99s-record-damages-%E2%80%98win%E2%80%99-of-%E2%82%AC500000#sthash.GJW0yFod.dpuf

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Still not direct from the horse's mouth (or his legal representatives)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 06:09:49 PM
Posted by portugalpress on June 15, 2015
Maddie cop launches appeal against McCann’s record damages ‘win’ of €500,000


Following a huge crowd-funding drive that has raised over £29,000 from well-wishers almost exclusively from the UK, former police inspector Gonçalo Amaral has today filed his appeal against the €500,000-plus damages awarded against him in a civil case taken out by the parents of Madeleine McCann.

The Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral published the news this morning, thanking “each and every one” of the nearly 2000 people who have given money to the British gofundme appeal that has helped take Amaral’s legal fight to its next stage.

As the message went out, donations continued apace - with over £390 raised in a matter of hours.

Several of the day’s donors commented this was “news worth celebrating”, but more than one suggested the story is “unlikely to be covered by mainstream media”.

Indeed, by coincidence British media is much more focused today on Madeleine’s mother Kate who is leading a bike ride for a missing people’s charity.

Kate McCann has told reporters that she is “really encouraged” by progress being made by police in the eight-year hunt for her daughter.

Meantime, the gofundme appeal - started by a young Birmingham woman who was only 14 when Madeleine went missing - is set to continue.

Updates are promised - though with the speed of Portuguese justice it is anyone’s guess when Amaral’s appeal will be set a date for hearing.

As readers may be aware, the long-running civil case taken out by Madeleine’s parents centred on claims Amaral made in his book The Truth of the Lie in which he suggested the McCanns had faked their daughter’s abduction.

The McCann’s said the book caused them “devastation, desperation, anxiety and pain”.

Amaral’s supporters however claim they “will not let this case pass into obscurity” and “do not tolerate the leaving of unanswered questions”.

natasha.donn@algarveresident.com

- See more at: http://portugalresident.com/maddie-cop-launches-appeal-against-mccann%E2%80%99s-record-damages-%E2%80%98win%E2%80%99-of-%E2%82%AC500000#sthash.GJW0yFod.dpuf

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Still not direct from the horse's mouth (or his legal representatives)

Several of the day’s donors commented this was “news worth celebrating”, but more than one suggested the story is “unlikely to be covered by mainstream media”.

Why not?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 15, 2015, 06:13:22 PM
Meanwhile, only £2686.00 donated to Kerry Needham.
The hypocrisy of those purporting to support the parents of missing children is mind-boggling.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2015, 06:17:19 PM
If the pace of this UK fund-raising carries on for a year or so (and the appeal process could easily take that long), he should have around £300k at his disposal by then, shouldn't he?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 06:23:31 PM
If, indeed, Amaral has been granted his appeal, I would expect some report in mainstream media (particularly in Portugal).

I would also expect rentagob Amaral to broadcast it from the highest hills (metaphorically, of course) ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2015, 06:27:02 PM
If, indeed, Amaral has been granted his appeal, I would expect some report in mainstream media (particularly in Portugal).

I would also expect rentagob Amaral to broadcast it from the highest hills (metaphorically, of course) ....

Oh, I expect some tabloid hack with a few inches to fill will eventually do so...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 06:28:12 PM
So will Amaral be perched on Julia's couch any time soon?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 06:29:54 PM
http://portugalresident.com/maddie-cop-launches-appeal-against-mccann%E2%80%99s-record-damages-%E2%80%98win%E2%80%99-of-%E2%82%AC500000
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 15, 2015, 06:30:50 PM
Oh, I expect some tabloid hack with a few inches to fill will eventually do so...


Perhaps the Express will pick it up to follow on from the 'bike ride'
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 06:31:24 PM
Has it occurred to you Anna, that the mccanns are not as popular as you think they are, and many people are just plain tired of their PR machine ?

I would actually say, bar the extremes which exist on both sides, the comments pages are probably more than reflective of opinion towards the mccanns.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: DCI on June 15, 2015, 06:42:56 PM
Several of the day’s donors commented this was “news worth celebrating”, but more than one suggested the story is “unlikely to be covered by mainstream media”.

Why not?

So is he appealing against the amount of damages?

Gonçalo Amaral has today filed his appeal against the €500,000-plus damages awarded against him in a civil case taken out by the parents of Madeleine McCann.

I wonder why only Donn is reporting this great day in Portugal, for Gonzo
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 15, 2015, 06:50:13 PM
So is he appealing against the amount of damages?

Gonçalo Amaral has today filed his appeal against the €500,000-plus damages awarded against him in a civil case taken out by the parents of Madeleine McCann.

I wonder why only Donn is reporting this great day in Portugal, for Gonzo

if he is only appealing against the amount of damages then that is an acceptance of the judges ruling of the facts in the case
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 15, 2015, 06:51:08 PM
"The appeal filed by Mr Amaral's lawyer, Dr Miguel Cruz Rodrigues, at 11h11 this morning"
http://pjga.blogspot.pt/2015/06/update-appeal-filed.html
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 15, 2015, 06:58:29 PM
Has it occurred to you Anna, that the mccanns are not as popular as you think they are, and many people are just plain tired of their PR machine ?

I would actually say, bar the extremes which exist on both sides, the comments pages are probably more than reflective of opinion towards the mccanns.

Hmmm ... are you saying it is up to the McCann 'PR machine' to publish the news coming out of Portugal?  I rather thought that was the job of journalists and the news media?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 15, 2015, 07:03:32 PM
So is he appealing against the amount of damages?

Gonçalo Amaral has today filed his appeal against the €500,000-plus damages awarded against him in a civil case taken out by the parents of Madeleine McCann.

I wonder why only Donn is reporting this great day in Portugal, for Gonzo
Good question, seeing as how hugely popular Amaral is in his homeland, surely today is a day of national celebration in Portugal, not just in Trollington, UK?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 07:05:23 PM
Hmmm ... are you saying it is up to the McCann 'PR machine' to publish the news coming out of Portugal?  I rather thought that was the job of journalists and the news media?

You're trying to twist words again.

The mccanns have repeatedly used PR advisers to try and garnish sympathy.

Right from the start.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 15, 2015, 07:05:41 PM
...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 15, 2015, 07:05:54 PM
http://pjga.blogspot.pt/2015/06/a-note-of-gratitude.html
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lyall on June 15, 2015, 07:09:07 PM
Hmmm ... are you saying it is up to the McCann 'PR machine' to publish the news coming out of Portugal?  I rather thought that was the job of journalists and the news media?

Is there any difference? &%+((£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 15, 2015, 07:09:49 PM
if he is only appealing against the amount of damages then that is an acceptance of the judges ruling of the facts in the case

You can be assured that Gonçalo Amaral is appealing against much more than the amount of damages.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 07:11:07 PM
if he is only appealing against the amount of damages then that is an acceptance of the judges ruling of the facts in the case

Now what were you saying to me yesterday morning dave ? 8)--))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 15, 2015, 07:14:43 PM
http://pjga.blogspot.pt/2015/06/a-note-of-gratitude.html
If it's truth that guides the great man then why has he got a conviction for perjury...?  &%+((£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 15, 2015, 07:15:55 PM
http://pjga.blogspot.pt/2015/06/a-note-of-gratitude.html

I will only believe it when I see it on his own Facebook page.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on June 15, 2015, 07:23:03 PM
Please stick to the subject under discussion and refrain from disrupting the thread
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 15, 2015, 07:24:58 PM
Compare for accuracy, informativeness, and transparency
http://www.findmadeleine.com/about_the_campaign/
http://pjga.blogspot.pt/2015/06/a-note-of-gratitude.html
BTW £30000 tonight maybe?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 15, 2015, 07:29:40 PM
Compare for accuracy, informativeness, and transparency
http://www.findmadeleine.com/about_the_campaign/
http://pjga.blogspot.pt/2015/06/a-note-of-gratitude.html
BTW £30000 tonight maybe?
How much has been spent on filing the appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 07:32:33 PM
You can be assured that Gonçalo Amaral is appealing against much more than the amount of damages.

In view of the manifest and proven lies Amaral has told, why do you suppose he should be appealing anything at all?

Let's see ...

Mark Harrison changed the investigation to one for a little girl assumed dead

(Oh no he didn't).

Mark Harrison concluded Madeleine was buried in close vicinity to apartment 5a

(Mark Harrison tentatively suggested that if she was dead, Madeleine's remains were most likely jettisoned into the sea).

Kate sacked a Leicestershire police liaison officer (where's the evidence)?

Eddie 'smelt death' all over the place.  Neither Grime nor Harrison said that.

Amaral contradicted and corrected Prior on interpretation of the forensic results.  We can safely assume that's a lie.

Prior rang the FSS to berate them on the PJ's power's of arrest (lie!)

The FSS produced a preliminary report (no they didn't).

STU 100 would have confirmed Madeleine was dead but was blocked by customs (the STU100 is for trapping and storing scents of living people suspected of crimes).

And so the catalogue of lies rolls.

And yet you think Amaral has a substantial basis for appeal?

Why is that?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2015, 07:34:45 PM
You can be assured that Gonçalo Amaral is appealing against much more than the amount of damages.

Do you think he can bring up the subject of why "truth" was set aside? If so, that could be interesting...

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 07:34:52 PM
In view of the manifest and proven lies Amaral has told, why do you suppose he should be appealing anything at all?

Let's see ...

Mark Harrison changed the investigation to one for a little girl assumed dead

(Oh no he didn't).

Mark Harrison concluded Madeleine was buried in close vicinity to apartment 5a

(Mark Harrison tentatively suggested that if she was dead, Madeleine's remains were most likely jettisoned into the sea).

Kate sacked a Leicestershire police liaison officer (where's the evidence)?

Eddie 'smelt death' all over the place.  Neither Grime nor Harrison said that.

Amaral contradicted and corrected Prior on interpretation of the forensic results.  We can safely assume that's a lie.

Prior rang the FSS to berate them on the PJ's power's of arrest (lie!)

The FSS produced a preliminary report (no they didn't).

STU 100 would have confirmed Madeleine was dead but was blocked by customs (the STU100 is for trapping and storing scents of living people suspected of crimes).

And so the catalogue of lies rolls.

And yet you think Amaral has a substantial basis for appeal?

Why is that?

You're so desperate ferryman.

When it comes to insight on the case , your abilities were highlighted today when you thought it was the mccanns appealing. 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2015, 07:36:30 PM
In view of the manifest and proven lies Amaral has told, why do you suppose he should be appealing anything at all?

Let's see ...

Mark Harrison changed the investigation to one for a little girl assumed dead

(Oh no he didn't).

Mark Harrison concluded Madeleine was buried in close vicinity to apartment 5a

(Mark Harrison tentatively suggested that if she was dead, Madeleine's remains were most likely jettisoned into the sea).

Kate sacked a Leicestershire police liaison officer (where's the evidence)?

Eddie 'smelt death' all over the place.  Neither Grime nor Harrison said that.

Amaral contradicted and corrected Prior on interpretation of the forensic results.  We can safely assume that's a lie.

Prior rang the FSS to berate them on the PJ's power's of arrest (lie!)

The FSS produced a preliminary report (no they didn't).

STU 100 would have confirmed Madeleine was dead but was blocked by customs (the STU100 is for trapping and storing scents of living people suspected of crimes).

And so the catalogue of lies rolls.

And yet you think Amaral has a substantial basis for appeal?

Why is that?

Establishing the "Truth" was set aside, FM.

Unless, of course, Amaral aims to raise it as an issue...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 15, 2015, 07:38:56 PM
How much has been spent on filing the appeal?
That won't have been billed yet.
At least we know exactly who is paying Mr Amaral's legal costs.
Remind us please, who is paying his 5 opponents' legal costs?
How easy that should be to answer - but it's not, is it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 07:41:30 PM
Establishing the "Truth" was set aside, FM.

Unless, of course, Amaral aims to raise it as an issue...

Depends how much store you set in Anne Guide's reports, I guess.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 07:51:39 PM
Depends how much store you set in Anne Guide's reports, I guess.

Well on what most people have said, she is very reliable and does not show bias.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: DCI on June 15, 2015, 07:52:23 PM
...

(http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6269.0;attach=5171)

Isn't that just "Proof of delivery of pleading" Pegasus?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 08:00:11 PM
Well on what most people have said, she is very reliable and does not show bias.

According to Anne Guides, Kate's counsellor presented himself as a psychiatrist.

I don't actually believe it; nor that there was ever any question mark over his testimony.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 15, 2015, 08:02:06 PM
Isn't that just "Proof of delivery of pleading" Pegasus?
Yes, it is issued by the court
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2015, 08:07:39 PM
Depends how much store you set in Anne Guide's reports, I guess.

The ruling is also online in Portuguese.

The judge set aside the whole issue of establishing whether anything could be considered to be true simply because it appeared in the police files, as it was not within her remit to do so.

Someone has a sense of irony: 

Truth is also simple. It is truth that guides me, and it will continue to do so, in its simplicity and greatness.

Of course it would be, except in cases in which establishing the truth is deliberately set aside.

I really don't think that it's in his best interest to wade into that territory, but who knows...


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 08:09:36 PM
According to Anne Guides, Kate's counsellor presented himself as a psychiatrist.

I don't actually believe it; nor that there was ever any question mark over his testimony.

Oh there is.

He was paid by the mccanns.

You do understand the concept of bias, don't you. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2015, 08:12:41 PM
Oh there is.

He was paid by the mccanns.

You do understand the concept of bias, don't you. 8)-)))

And Paiva was not at all biased by having Amaral as a boss?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 08:14:06 PM
The ruling is also online in Portuguese.

The judge set aside the whole issue of establishing whether anything could be considered to be true simply because it appeared in the police files, as it was not within her remit to do so.

Someone has a sense of irony: 

Truth is also simple. It is truth that guides me, and it will continue to do so, in its simplicity and greatness.

Of course it would be, except in cases in which establishing the truth is deliberately set aside.

I really don't think that it's in his best interest to wade into that territory, but who knows...

You'll probably find it was Ann Guides translating her own Portuguese into her own English, producing an uncanny match ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 08:24:10 PM
And Paiva was not at all biased by having Amaral as a boss?
Was one paying the other ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 15, 2015, 08:26:18 PM
Oh there is.

He was paid by the mccanns.

You do understand the concept of bias, don't you. 8)-)))

Yes I do. 

Grime demonstrated it.

But Alan Pike didn't.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 15, 2015, 08:28:59 PM
I do understand The Portuguese Ruling, albeit with some difficulty.  But Amaral did libel The McCanns.  If Portugal has no Law of Libel then it is way past time that they did

And I have absolutely no doubt that The Court of Human Rights will agree with me.

Call it "Denying The Right to Innocence" if you will.  But what he did was unadulterated Libel.

However, we can all now look forward to another five years of this farce.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2015, 08:33:37 PM
You'll probably find it was Ann Guides translating her own Portuguese into her own English, producing an uncanny match ....

The scanned PT ruling appears to be authentic to me.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 15, 2015, 08:36:25 PM
Kate and Gerry failed to produce independent medical evidence supporting their ludicrous claim for mental trauma induced by the book etc...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2015, 08:41:53 PM
Kate and Gerry failed to produce independent medical evidence supporting their ludicrous claim for mental trauma induced by the book etc...

What would you consider to be independent medical evidence that they wouldn't have had to pay for?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 15, 2015, 08:45:35 PM
Kate and Gerry failed to produce independent medical evidence supporting their ludicrous claim for mental trauma induced by the book etc...

Should they have needed to?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 15, 2015, 08:46:47 PM
Depends how much store you set in Anne Guide's reports, I guess.

Her name is Anne Guedes. You could at least spell her name correctly.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 08:49:24 PM
Yes I do. 

Grime demonstrated it.

But Alan Pike didn't.

Pure rollocks.

Then again that's hardly a surprise.

P.S. Remind me of Pike's professional qualifications in Psychology.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 15, 2015, 08:51:31 PM
Pure rollocks.

Then again that's hardly a surprise.

P.S. Remind me of Pike's professional qualifications in Psychology.

Does this matter?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 08:52:53 PM
Does this matter?

Ask ferryman.

He's  hooked on Pike's professionalism. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 15, 2015, 08:53:36 PM
Kate and Gerry failed to produce independent medical evidence supporting their ludicrous claim for mental trauma induced by the book etc...
there's no such thing...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 08:55:01 PM
there's no such thing...

There was no trauma other than what they inflicted on themselves.

and what about Madeleine dave ?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 15, 2015, 08:58:52 PM
Ask ferryman.

He's  hooked on Pike's professionalism. 8)-)))

I don't think so, Stephen.  There is nothing wrong with the professionalism of Mr. Pike.  Or do you think that there is?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 15, 2015, 08:59:24 PM
Does this matter?

I think that it would count if someone is testifying as to the mental state of one of the parties. At the time of his testimony and when he had met them he was not a qualified psychologist.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2015, 09:01:42 PM
I think that it would count if someone is testifying as to the mental state of one of the parties.

Has the judge put his credentials into question?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 09:05:15 PM
I don't think so, Stephen.  There is nothing wrong with the professionalism of Mr. Pike.  Or do you think that there is?

He's not a Psychologist.

and your view is subject to bias as we know.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 15, 2015, 09:09:04 PM
Oh there is.

He was paid by the mccanns.

You do understand the concept of bias, don't you. 8)-)))
In the early weeks AP and IFLG and CR were paid by someone else, just IMO.
Back to the GFM appeal, by midnight it should be over 30,000 pounds
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 09:12:12 PM
In the early weeks AP and IFLG and CR were paid by someone else, just IMO.
Back to the GFM appeal, by midnight it should be over 30,000 pounds

Until AP became an employee of the mccanns.

At that point he became irrelevant.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 15, 2015, 09:17:02 PM
Should they have needed to?

Yes, in a court you must fight your case with evidence 'independent' is required. I know this from personal experience.

OR anyone could walk into a court claiming mental trauma....and be backed up by friends.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 09:17:49 PM
Yes, in a court you must fight your case with evidence 'independent' is required. I know this from personal experience.

OR anyone could walk into a court claiming mental trauma....and be backed up by friends.

Precisely.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 15, 2015, 09:23:06 PM
Has the judge put his credentials into question?

Did she give them a huge payout due to the mental trauma inflicted by the book? or bcause their right to be presumed innocent was denied them...


Um...err...hmm think that just about covers that question.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 15, 2015, 09:24:59 PM
He's not a Psychologist.

and your view is subject to bias as we know.

As is yours.  But what do you think of Mr. Pike?  Which is what I asked.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 15, 2015, 09:26:52 PM
Yes, in a court you must fight your case with evidence 'independent' is required. I know this from personal experience.

OR anyone could walk into a court claiming mental trauma....and be backed up by friends.

So you think that Amaral's Book will have had no effect on The McCanns?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2015, 09:27:30 PM
As is yours.  But what do you think of Mr. Pike?  Which is what I asked.

His views are irrelevant.

He is not a psychologist.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 15, 2015, 09:38:46 PM
So you think that Amaral's Book will have had no effect on The McCanns?

I didn't say that Eleanor.

I believe the book would have an effect, but if they were innocent what would that matter. Further more, they claim the book made matters worse? WT* worse? seriously!  and they tried to load that with more trauma than the original of their daughter 'being abducted' along with the book impacting the search for their daughter- not one bit of evidence of any of that.

For the record: I do not hate the parents ( I am bewildered by their behaviour and outraged by some of it) I am not an Amaral fan either. He has the right to express ......you know. I say what I say from what I have watched of the parents and their interviews. I am not influenced by anyone with any agenda on this forum.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 15, 2015, 10:23:26 PM
No action was taken until later when the film was published. But has the film now been cleared?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 15, 2015, 11:02:14 PM
I didn't say that Eleanor.

I believe the book would have an effect, but if they were innocent what would that matter. Further more, they claim the book made matters worse? WT* worse? seriously!  and they tried to load that with more trauma than the original of their daughter 'being abducted' along with the book impacting the search for their daughter- not one bit of evidence of any of that.

For the record: I do not hate the parents ( I am bewildered by their behaviour and outraged by some of it) I am not an Amaral fan either. He has the right to express ......you know. I say what I say from what I have watched of the parents and their interviews. I am not influenced by anyone with any agenda on this forum.

I think I actually believe you.  However, I was exactly the same sort of parent, although probably not quite so good as The McCanns.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 15, 2015, 11:18:50 PM
I think I actually believe you.  However, I was exactly the same sort of parent, although probably not quite so good as The McCanns.

Eleanor, there is no such a thing as perfect parents, I am the first to laugh that off re my first child!. If your children grow up with out harm and found their way in life then you did your bit. Don't measure yourself to others. We don't know what happened in PDL that night...

back on topic before you scold me...I don't think it was a great descision to sue Amaral.. especially the way they did.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 15, 2015, 11:27:43 PM
"Tycoon .... is giving £100,000 to a fund to assist Kate and Gerry McCann with their legal costs."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6997429.stm
If you read the whole article it is clear this is a seperate fund, different to the FMF fund.
Also we read "asking other rich people to donate" so this unnamed fund probably had far more than that £100,000 in it.
Does this fund still exist? What is it called? Who administers it? Is it paying the legal expenses of Mr Amaral's opponents today?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: DCI on June 15, 2015, 11:37:12 PM
"Tycoon .... is giving £100,000 to a fund to assist Kate and Gerry McCann with their legal costs."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6997429.stm
If you read the whole article it is clear this is a seperate fund, different to the FMF fund.
Does this fund still exist? What is it called? Who administers it? Is it paying the legal expenses of Mr Amaral's opponents today?

That's been known for nearly 8 years Pegasus, Richard Branson was only one of the people who made large donations.
There were quite a few. I thought you would have known them all!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 15, 2015, 11:44:58 PM
That's been known for nearly 8 years Pegasus, Richard Branson was only one of the people who made large donations.
There were quite a few. I thought you would have known them all!
So has that £100,000+++ all been spent on legal costs already, or is it now funding the current court case against Mr Amaral?
P.S. As predicted, the gofundme total for Mr Amaral passed £30K before midnight.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: DCI on June 15, 2015, 11:54:30 PM
So has that £100,000+++ all been spent on legal costs already, or is it now funding the current court case against Mr Amaral?

Already? 8 yeras ago. I shouldn't worry about it, Branson obviously wasn't.
Who has paid for Amarals legal costs, do you know?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 16, 2015, 12:01:40 AM
Already? 8 yeras ago. I shouldn't worry about it, Branson obviously wasn't.
Who has paid for Amarals legal costs, do you know?
For several years PJGA have been halping pay Mr Amaral's legal costs defending against a legal attack by some foreign tourists. As for the fund on the other side, we don't even know its name, yet. Those clever legal peeps can't resist tax efficiency so chances are it is hidden away somewhere at CH ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 16, 2015, 12:13:34 AM
For several years PJGA have been halping pay Mr Amaral's legal costs defending against a legal attack by some foreign tourists. As for the fund on the other side, we don't even know its name, yet. Those clever legal peeps can't resist tax efficiency so chances are it is hidden away somewhere at CH ?

Maybe it is in a holding account with Carter Ruck.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 16, 2015, 12:38:24 AM
Maybe it is in a holding account with Carter Ruck.
IMO no because at the time they were not involved, nor AFAIK are they involved in the current case.
There must be a fund hidden away somewhere IMO which pays the legal costs of the foreign tourists who initiated the current legal attack on Mr Amaral.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2015, 07:04:09 AM
Eleanor, there is no such a thing as perfect parents, I am the first to laugh that off re my first child!. If your children grow up with out harm and found their way in life then you did your bit. Don't measure yourself to others. We don't know what happened in PDL that night...

back on topic before you scold me...I don't think it was a great descision to sue Amaral.. especially the way they did.

more likely there was a large slice of luck involved
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2015, 07:10:26 AM
Interesting...

Dear friends,

 Today, the 15th of June, my appeal against the sentence that has recently been produced in the trial concerning my book, "Maddie, A Verdade da Mentira", was filed at the Civil Court of Lisbon.


according to this amaral is appealing against the sentence...not the verdict...if we can trust the translation
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 16, 2015, 07:25:35 AM
Eleanor, there is no such a thing as perfect parents, I am the first to laugh that off re my first child!. If your children grow up with out harm and found their way in life then you did your bit. Don't measure yourself to others. We don't know what happened in PDL that night...

back on topic before you scold me...I don't think it was a great descision to sue Amaral.. especially the way they did.

I have always said the same, they were badly advised but then these lawyers have a vested interest in the McCanns regardless of whether it is England or Portugal. The McCanns have become a nice little earner and a potential cash cow for some unscrupulous operators.

The biggest mistake the McCanns made was in attempting to sue Amaral for £1million.  They have lost a lot of sympathy by their perceived GREED!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2015, 07:34:03 AM
I have always said the same, they were badly advised but then these lawyers have a vested interest in the McCanns regardless of whether it is England or Portugal. The McCanns have become a nice little earner and a potential cash cow for some unscrupulous operators.

The biggest mistake the McCanns made was in attempting to sue Amaral for £1million.  They have lost a lot of sympathy by their perceived GREED!

I think the McCanns were absolutely right to sue amaral and have lost no sympathy
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 16, 2015, 07:42:00 AM
I think the McCanns were absolutely right to sue amaral and have lost no sympathy

You are wrong, they are now being seen as grubby money grabbers and have lost much support evidenced by the dwindling donations to the fund whereas Amaral has never seen so much tangible support previously.

Has the tide turned??
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2015, 07:45:09 AM
You are wrong, they are now being seen as grubby money grabbers and have lost much support evidenced by the dwindling donations to the fund whereas Amaral has never seen so much support.

 No I'm right..amaral's support is based on a lie...ie that support for amaral will get justice for maddie. It now looks as though he is only appealing against the level of damages.....how will that get justice for maddie
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 16, 2015, 07:59:04 AM
I think the McCanns were absolutely right to sue amaral and have lost no sympathy

You are in dreamland if you believe the mccanns have widespread support.

With the mccanns, it has become all about the money.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2015, 08:00:46 AM
If this is true...

Dear friends,

 Today, the 15th of June, my appeal against the sentence that has recently been produced in the trial concerning my book, "Maddie, A Verdade da Mentira", was filed at the Civil Court of Lisbon.


Then amaral has accepted the verdict and is only appealing against the level of damages...how is this going to achieve "Justice for Maddie" which is why many people are contributing to his fund
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 16, 2015, 08:02:33 AM
You are in dreamland if you believe the mccanns have widespread support.

With the mccanns, it has become all about the money.

That was very evident when an embarrassed Kate McCann had to make the statement that it wasn't about the money.  If that was true she could end these proceedings immediately.  Truth is that they have run up substantial legal expenses now and someone has to pay for them.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 16, 2015, 08:05:39 AM
That was very evident when an embarrassed Kate McCann had to make the statement that it wasn't about the money.  If that was true she could end these proceedings immediately.

Precisely Angelo.

Her and her husbands quietness speaks volumes.

According to  sources of course.  8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 16, 2015, 08:06:42 AM
If this is true...

Dear friends,

 Today, the 15th of June, my appeal against the sentence that has recently been produced in the trial concerning my book, "Maddie, A Verdade da Mentira", was filed at the Civil Court of Lisbon.


Then amaral has accepted the verdict and is only appealing against the level of damages...how is this going to achieve "Justice for Maddie" which is why many people are contributing to his fund

Are you doing a ferryman ?

Misinterpretation abounds.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 16, 2015, 08:10:39 AM
You are wrong, they are now being seen as grubby money grabbers and have lost much support evidenced by the dwindling donations to the fund whereas Amaral has never seen so much tangible support previously.

Has the tide turned??
No.  Are the McCanns actively campaigning for contributions to The Fund?  Have they any need to whilst Op Grange is happening?  You haven't the faintest idea of the level of their support, and whether or not it has gone up or down and don't think that the Amaral Fund is an indication of anything more than the level of his fanatical support ie: tiny.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 16, 2015, 08:14:31 AM
If this is true...

Dear friends,

 Today, the 15th of June, my appeal against the sentence that has recently been produced in the trial concerning my book, "Maddie, A Verdade da Mentira", was filed at the Civil Court of Lisbon.


Then amaral has accepted the verdict and is only appealing against the level of damages...how is this going to achieve "Justice for Maddie" which is why many people are contributing to his fund

Not sure about that, Davel.

If it is a translation of "sentença", there are a lot of meanings: award, verdict, sentence, judgement...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 16, 2015, 08:25:23 AM
IMO no because at the time they were not involved, nor AFAIK are they involved in the current case.
There must be a fund hidden away somewhere IMO which pays the legal costs of the foreign tourists who initiated the current legal attack on Mr Amaral.

When the McCanns acted against Amaral's book the legal costs were met by the Madeleine Fund according to the 2009 and 2010 Director's reports. I would imagine therefore that the legal costs of the defamation trial were also paid by the fund.
http://madeleinemccann.org/blog/2014/04/20/madeleines-fund-review-investigation-of-accounts/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 16, 2015, 09:20:27 AM

Is there anything in the Portuguese press about Mr Amaral's appeal ... or in any press (Natasha doesn't really count)?  I've seen nothing,which means just that, nothing, but one would have thought that Mr Amaral would be front page headlines on his home turf at least.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 16, 2015, 09:22:20 AM
Is there anything in the Portuguese press about Mr Amaral's appeal ... or in any press (Natasha doesn't really count)?  I've seen nothing,which means just that, nothing, but one would have thought that Mr Amaral would be front page headlines on his home turf at least.

Like the appeal, all good things..................
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 16, 2015, 09:40:41 AM
Like the appeal, all good things..................

Sometimes you should be careful what you wish for as J P warned yesterday ... and I think the result of the appeal may turn out not to be quite as you hope.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 16, 2015, 09:42:52 AM
Sometimes you should be careful what you wish for as J P warned yesterday ... and I think the result of the appeal may turn out not to be quite as you hope.

That Brietta works both ways.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 16, 2015, 10:31:31 AM
What are the possible outcomes?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 16, 2015, 10:32:23 AM
Sometimes you should be careful what you wish for as J P warned yesterday ... and I think the result of the appeal may turn out not to be quite as you hope.

Not appealing wouldn't be a good idea either. After all € 500.000,00 plus interest are at stake as well as freedom of expression and book banning.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 16, 2015, 10:36:44 AM
That Brietta works both ways.

The Drs McCann do not appear to be appealing the judge's decision or the level of the award made in their favour.  Mr Amaral appears to be the one pursuing that particular course of action.

As it stands at the moment Madeleine's parents have won both the legal and the moral argument.  The reopening of Madeleine's case and the realisation of the sheer amount of evidence which had not been properly investigated went a long way to cementing the moral victory.
That Madeleine's mother was able to claim progress in the ongoing case is also a step in the right direction.

I see the next step in Mr Amaral's saga as the European Court (ain't that something lol) and no doubt there will be a rump eager to finance that too.  C'est la vie.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 16, 2015, 10:40:49 AM
Not appealing wouldn't be a good idea either. After all € 500.000,00 plus interest are at stake as well as freedom of expression and book banning.

It's never a good idea to conflate lies and libel (copiously served in Amaral's book, film and interviews) with freedom of expression.

The two are completely different.

Amaral's "freedom" to transmit the lies of his book and film has been taken away from him.

The only question now left to resolve is what level of compensation to the McCanns and their children for Amaral's smear campaign is right.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 16, 2015, 10:40:59 AM
Not appealing wouldn't be a good idea either. After all € 500.000,00 plus interest are at stake as well as freedom of expression and book banning.

At least this time the perceived 'gag' is a Portuguese one ... only a matter of time till the outraged citizens of Portugal take to the streets on Mr Amaral's behalf ... or at the least contribute a couple of Euros to his appeal fund.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 16, 2015, 12:25:25 PM
I have always said the same, they were badly advised but then these lawyers have a vested interest in the McCanns regardless of whether it is England or Portugal. The McCanns have become a nice little earner and a potential cash cow for some unscrupulous operators.

The biggest mistake the McCanns made was in attempting to sue Amaral for £1million.  They have lost a lot of sympathy by their perceived GREED!

No wonder, if the media avoid reporting how much HE GAINED...

The amount of €1.1m appears to have been based on assumed income, however, I haven't found a supporting document as to where the breakdown of those figures came from.

Even €500k seems high by PT standards, but then what articles don't appear to mention is the enormous amount of money that he made between mid-2008 and 2009.

And the income taken into consideration only appears to concern the book, the "documentary" and the DVD sales during that period. It doesn't appear to cover amounts that he may have earned by interviews / articles via other media. The Sky-related proposed interview at a cost of €80k + VAT didn't work out, but who knows which others did?

And all of that money gained by insisting that a missing little girl is dead - and that therefore there was no point in searching for her - and that the parents were involved in various associated criminal activities.

He could have written a book in a different way and could even have participated in the "documentary" in a more measured way and they would still have been best-sellers.

Who were you saying was greedy?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 16, 2015, 12:29:18 PM
It's never a good idea to conflate lies and libel (copiously served in Amaral's book, film and interviews) with freedom of expression.

The two are completely different.

Amaral's "freedom" to transmit the lies of his book and film has been taken away from him.

The only question now left to resolve is what level of compensation to the McCanns and their children for Amaral's smear campaign is right.

I wonder how many more times you need to hear this? The judge said it wasn't illegal to say what Amaral said. she also said the facts in his book were mostly taken from the case files (not lies).

What she said was wrong was that he used privileged information to write his book (information he had access to as the co-ordinator of the investigation) and that as a retired policeman he failed to uphold the presumption of innocence, as he was bound to do.

The claims of the McCann children against Amaral were dismissed as not proven. So was the claim that his book damaged the 'search' for Madeleine. Only the parents received an award because the book damaged their reputation. It was banned to stop further damage.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2015, 12:43:51 PM
I wonder how many more times you need to hear this? The judge said it wasn't illegal to say what Amaral said. she also said the facts in his book were mostly taken from the case files (not lies).

What she said was wrong was that he used privileged information to write his book (information he had access to as the co-ordinator of the investigation) and that as a retired policeman he failed to uphold the presumption of innocence, as he was bound to do.

The claims of the McCann children against Amaral were dismissed as not proven. So was the claim that his book damaged the 'search' for Madeleine. Only the parents received an award because the book damaged their reputation. It was banned to stop further damage.

It's you who needs to listen...no one said what amaral said was illegal.......that's why it was a civil case not acriminal  case.....a lot of what amaral said was taken from the files but he added to that and told lies...

I'm sure we have not seen the full judgement
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2015, 12:46:37 PM
Not sure about that, Davel.

If it is a translation of "sentença", there are a lot of meanings: award, verdict, sentence, judgement...
what you are saying is that the translation...on this Portuguese site...may not be accurate...I agree with you but what does that say for all the other translations that some claim prove the McCanns to be inconsistent
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 16, 2015, 12:49:13 PM
No.  Are the McCanns actively campaigning for contributions to The Fund?  Have they any need to whilst Op Grange is happening?  You haven't the faintest idea of the level of their support, and whether or not it has gone up or down and don't think that the Amaral Fund is an indication of anything more than the level of his fanatical support ie: tiny.

Merchandise remains on sale in the online store with 6 options for values of online donations.
Does that not count?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 16, 2015, 12:54:58 PM
I wonder how many more times you need to hear this? The judge said it wasn't illegal to say what Amaral said. she also said the facts in his book were mostly taken from the case files (not lies).

What she said was wrong was that he used privileged information to write his book (information he had access to as the co-ordinator of the investigation) and that as a retired policeman he failed to uphold the presumption of innocence, as he was bound to do.

The claims of the McCann children against Amaral were dismissed as not proven. So was the claim that his book damaged the 'search' for Madeleine. Only the parents received an award because the book damaged their reputation. It was banned to stop further damage.

That was carefully worded, G-unit, and I find that to be a reasonable summary at first glance.

Concerning "The judge said it wasn't illegal to say what Amaral said." Yes, she did say that, and that seems to be the starting point in PT law. However, Murat won his appeal against CdaM, despite the fact that he couldn't prove the fairly obvious point that CdaM had gained its "info" from police sources.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 16, 2015, 12:59:41 PM
what you are saying is that the translation...on this Portuguese site...may not be accurate...I agree with you but what does that say for all the other translations that some claim prove the McCanns to be inconsistent

That's why I find it pointless to nitpick details in general, particularly witness statements, some of which have 4-5 overlapping issues that make them virtually useless aside from a general gist.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 16, 2015, 01:01:58 PM
That was carefully worded, G-unit, and I find that to be a reasonable summary at first glance.

Concerning "The judge said it wasn't illegal to say what Amaral said." Yes, she did say that, and that seems to be the starting point in PT law. However, Murat won his appeal against CdaM, despite the fact that he couldn't prove the fairly obvious point that CdaM had gained its "info" from police sources.

Libel is a judgment on falsehoods that lower reputation.

Amaral's book (and no doubt, film, though I've never watched it) is littered with falsehoods that lower reputation.

That is why Amaral lost the libel trial.

That is the classic definition of libel.

It is why Amaral lost.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 16, 2015, 01:09:04 PM
Libel is a judgment on falsehoods that lower reputation.

Amaral's book (and no doubt, film, though I've never watched it) is littered with falsehoods that lower reputation.

That is why Amaral lost the libel trial.

That is the classic definition of libel.

It is why Amaral lost.

Now wait for the appeal.

Probably at least a year away.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 16, 2015, 01:11:41 PM
Libel is a judgment on falsehoods that lower reputation.

Amaral's book (and no doubt, film, though I've never watched it) is littered with falsehoods that lower reputation.

That is why Amaral lost the libel trial.

That is the classic definition of libel.

It is why Amaral lost.


I'd agree with you that his book had zero chance of being published in the UK, and that his "documentary" had no chance of being picked up by a mainstream UK channel.

PT, however, is a different world.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 16, 2015, 01:44:00 PM
Merchandise remains on sale in the online store with 6 options for values of online donations.
Does that not count?
No it does not.  A few buttons on a not-very-busy website does not equate to "actively campaigning" in my view, but no doubt you know better.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 16, 2015, 01:58:24 PM
No it does not.  A few buttons on a not-very-busy website does not equate to "actively campaigning" in my view, but no doubt you know better.

I don't really wish to get into a pointless debate on the meanings of "actively", old stick.
The facility to donate exists on a website, whether that website is a backwater or not is largely irrelevant.
There remains a current "campaign" to obtain funds, from the public, under one guise or another.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 16, 2015, 02:01:45 PM

I'd agree with you that that's his book had zero chance of being published in the UK, and why his "documentary" had no chance of being picked up by a mainstream UK channel.

PT, however, is a different world.

Only in where burden of proof lies.

The majority of this case was settled in written submissions, just not seen on line.

If they had been seen on line Ms Baulch's fund would scarcely have a euro in it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 16, 2015, 02:02:57 PM
Only in where burden of proof lies.

The majority of this case was settled in written submissions, just not seen on line.

If they had been seen on line Ms Baulch's fund would scarcely have a euro in it.


You wish   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 16, 2015, 02:08:06 PM
If the dog hadn't stopped running he would have caught the bunny.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on June 16, 2015, 02:29:35 PM
If the dog hadn't stopped running he would have caught the bunny.
The bunny is caught, I think, but at present it is in the wrong burrow.



Did you go to Ampleforth College by any chance?  You sound just like someone I know who went there.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 16, 2015, 02:56:16 PM
The bunny is caught, I think, but at present it is in the wrong burrow.



Did you go to Ampleforth College by any chance?  You sound just like someone I know who went there.

Good lord no! That's Benedictine Monks and all that isn't it?
Secular Co Ed State Grammar School was me, lass.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 16, 2015, 03:25:10 PM
Interesting...

Dear friends,

 Today, the 15th of June, my appeal against the sentence that has recently been produced in the trial concerning my book, "Maddie, A Verdade da Mentira", was filed at the Civil Court of Lisbon.


according to this amaral is appealing against the sentence...not the verdict...if we can trust the translation
@dave1 The original portuguese text of Mr Amaral's note of gratitude is available for you
http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
The original word is there.
"sentença" Look it up in a dictionary.
The meanings include "sentence" "judgement" and "verdict".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2015, 03:39:47 PM
@dave1 The original portuguese text of Mr Amaral's note of gratitude is available for you
http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
The original word is there.
"sentença" Look it up in a dictionary.
The meanings include "sentence" "judgement" and "verdict".
so it could mean one of three but PJGA have translated it as "sentence"...so it's basically impossible to get an exact translation...must be the same for the files...most of which have been translated twice...I trust you understand what that means for their accuracy
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 16, 2015, 03:40:38 PM
Only in where burden of proof lies.

The majority of this case was settled in written submissions, just not seen on line.

If they had been seen on line Ms Baulch's fund would scarcely have a euro in it.

I don't see what needed to be settled that isn't in the various rulings. There is always the possibility, however, that something lurking somewhere in the 1000s of pages got missed or wasn't considered to have been fully taken into consideration.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2015, 03:42:45 PM
@dave1 The original portuguese text of Mr Amaral's note of gratitude is available for you
http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
The original word is there.
"sentença" Look it up in a dictionary.
The meanings include "sentence" "judgement" and "verdict".

so is amaral appealing against his sentence or the verdict


I hope all those who question the inaccuracies in the McCanns statement realise how inaccurate the translations may be
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 16, 2015, 04:16:32 PM
so is amaral appealing against his sentence or the verdict


I hope all those who question the inaccuracies in the McCanns statement realise how inaccurate the translations may be

What does the PT original say?

I would think that the safest bet is to assume that it encompasses everything.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 16, 2015, 04:31:14 PM
so is amaral appealing against his sentence or the verdict


I hope all those who question the inaccuracies in the McCanns statement realise how inaccurate the translations may be
@dave1 I gave you the original word. "sentença" That is what Mr Amaral wrote. Look it up in a dictionary and translate it for us.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2015, 04:54:35 PM
@dave1 I gave you the original word. "sentença" That is what Mr Amaral wrote. Look it up in a dictionary and translate it for us.
You don't seem to understand......it has several meanings
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 16, 2015, 05:20:39 PM
You don't seem to understand......it has several meanings
So use the context and your knowledge from elsewhere to work out what it means.
The irony is no-one here even knows the name of the fund paying the other side's much higher legal costs, it is so expertly concealed.
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 16, 2015, 05:36:37 PM

There's a sign on the wall but she wants to be sure
'Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings.

Ooh, it makes me wonder,
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2015, 05:51:38 PM
So use the context and your knowledge from elsewhere to work out what it means.
The irony is no-one here even knows the name of the fund paying the other side's much higher legal costs, it is so expertly concealed.

PJ GA have translated it as "sentence"...have they got it wrong...perhaps they have...we don't know
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 16, 2015, 06:40:50 PM
PJ GA have translated it as "sentence"...have they got it wrong...perhaps they have...we don't know

Don't worry dave.

Just be patient. 8(>((
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2015, 06:58:19 PM
Don't worry dave.

Just be patient. 8(>((

it's amaral who has all his assets frozen and is totally broken...as he tells us....it can take the rest of his life for all I care
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 16, 2015, 07:02:42 PM
So use the context and your knowledge from elsewhere to work out what it means.
The irony is no-one here even knows the name of the fund paying the other side's much higher legal costs, it is so expertly concealed.

No - the irony is that if the McCanns ever get their hands on the half a million Euros, they will probably end up with very little after refunding any benefactors for the legal costs. Whether or not Amaral is successful with his appeal, his benefactors will not be refunded.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 16, 2015, 07:03:20 PM
it's amaral who has all his assets frozen and is totally broken...as he tells us....it can take the rest of his life for all I care

Of course dave.

and the mccanns will get nothing but LEGAL BILLS.

Very Nice.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2015, 07:12:09 PM
Of course dave.

and the mccanns will get nothing but LEGAL BILLS.

Very Nice.

and amaral supporters will continue to get legal bills...Kate could just write another book....it would certainly be a best seller like the other one
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 16, 2015, 07:14:34 PM
and amaral supporters will continue to get legal bills...Kate could just write another book....it would certainly be a best seller like the other one

Of course dave, of course.  @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2015, 07:26:02 PM
Of course dave, of course.  @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

THE CASE HAS RUINED ME: Dagbladet met Amaral just hours before the trial against him started in Lisbon. He said the case has ruined him. All his assets are frozen until a verdict is made - which may take years. Photo: Per Lars Tronstad.

do you not understand what has happened
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 16, 2015, 07:32:57 PM
THE CASE HAS RUINED ME: Dagbladet met Amaral just hours before the trial against him started in Lisbon. He said the case has ruined him. All his assets are frozen until a verdict is made - which may take years. Photo: Per Lars Tronstad.

do you not understand what has happened

Yes, we know all about the mccanns need for revenge and money.

As you have seen dave, Amaral has people backing him.

Now we await the next round, about a years time, as has been indicated.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2015, 07:36:50 PM
Yes, we know all about the mccanns need for revenge and money.

As you have seen dave, Amaral has people backing him.

Now we await the next round, about a years time, as has been indicated.

I can wait...whilst amaral continues his miserable existence..let it go on
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 16, 2015, 07:46:51 PM
Of course dave.

and the mccanns will get nothing but LEGAL BILLS.

Very Nice.

And sadly does nothing to contribute to find Madeleine. The very fact that they tried to sue and get money for 'harm' done to Maddie by the book I found to be the most bizarre and gut wrenching . I mean they expected to be paid money in Maddies name? WTF? No court was ever going to award money to persons mortal state unknown!

At the same time they claimed that their behaviour caused no harm to Maddie?

A seriously bad move to sue Amaral. They can't even get the verdict overturned. The fact now remains the court did not find AMARAL HAD LIAIBLED them.... oh dear double whammy!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 16, 2015, 07:50:50 PM
There's a sign on the wall but she wants to be sure
'Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings.

Ooh, it makes me wonder,

LOL You do make me smile sometimes...

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2015, 07:53:30 PM
And sadly does nothing to contribute to find Madeleine. The very fact that they tried to sue and get money for 'harm' done to Maddie by the book I found to be the most bizarre and gut wrenching . I mean they expected to be paid money in Maddies name? WTF? No court was ever going to award money to persons mortal state unknown!

At the same time they claimed that their behaviour caused no harm to Maddie?

A seriously bad move to sue Amaral. They can't even get the verdict overturned. The fact now remains the court did not find AMARAL HAD LIAIBLED them.... oh dear double whammy!

yet amaral supporters claim the case is about justice for maddie...what a bunch of liars
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 16, 2015, 07:57:35 PM
yet amaral supporters claim the case is about justice for maddie...what a bunch of liars

Well Davel, I thought it was about justice for Amaral? in his fight against the parents who violated his freedom of expression.

I would add that I don't think the family or Amarals book was ever about Justice for Maddie. Both gave their reasons for writing. both made money  end of story....should have been left there.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 16, 2015, 07:59:53 PM
Well Davel, I thought it was about justice for Amaral? in his fight against the parents who violated his freedom of expression.

I would add that I don't think the family or Amarals book was ever about Justice for Maddie. Both gave their reasons for writing. both made money  end of story....should have been left there.

plenty of posts on the fund me page ...plus poulton ...promoting the case as justice for maddie...a fraudulent fund
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 16, 2015, 08:15:32 PM
plenty of posts on the fund me page ...plus poulton ...promoting the case as justice for maddie...a fraudulent fund

It seems to be more transparent than McCANNS.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 16, 2015, 08:34:57 PM
it's amaral who has all his assets frozen and is totally broken...as he tells us....it can take the rest of his life for all I care

You seem to take this personally.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 16, 2015, 08:50:07 PM
I am beginning to wonder if the fund which pays for the expensive services of Alvis Doubte And Smothers and all their assistants is located offshore. Reason is I have searched for UK companies for all the obvious directors and can't find the fund. Where is it? It must exist. Channel Islands maybe?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 16, 2015, 08:57:54 PM
I can wait...whilst amaral continues his miserable existence..let it go on

That's what the mccanns deserve.

and of course more legal bills.

Oh yes.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 16, 2015, 09:03:08 PM
I am beginning to wonder if the fund which pays for the expensive services of Alvis Doubte And Smothers and all their assistants is located offshore. Reason is I have searched for UK companies for all the obvious directors and can't find the fund. Where is it? It must exist. Channel Islands maybe?

Not something I've heard about - could you be more explicit, please ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 16, 2015, 09:10:57 PM
Which fund has been paying and continues to pay the legal expenses of the people who started this case against Mr Amaral? It's as transparent as a victorian pea-souper. And BTW what is a service address?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on June 16, 2015, 09:18:46 PM
http://www.companylawclub.co.uk/directors-service-addresses
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 16, 2015, 09:25:27 PM
@Anna thanks :)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 16, 2015, 09:34:14 PM
I am beginning to wonder if the fund which pays for the expensive services of Alvis Doubte And Smothers and all their assistants is located offshore. Reason is I have searched for UK companies for all the obvious directors and can't find the fund. Where is it? It must exist. Channel Islands maybe?

Oh dear, Pegasus.  Its quite amusing to see you turn somersaults in your anxiety over the funding.

You can rest assured that their is sufficient funding that neither side will be at a financial disadvantage in this court case.  8(0(*

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 16, 2015, 10:11:15 PM
Oh dear, Pegasus.  Its quite amusing to see you turn somersaults in your anxiety over the funding.

You can rest assured that their is sufficient funding that neither side will be at a financial disadvantage in this court case.  8(0(*
The attempts to discredit the highly transparent work of PJGA have spurred me to ask, where is the fund that pays the more expensive and numerous portuguese and english lawyers on the other side in this legal case? Who paid for 5 foreign tourists to issue the ex-parte injunction which started this? I am sure those billionaires who donated money specifically for legal expenses would need to see a formal entity to administer their legal expenses donations, like a ltd company with directors, but where is it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 16, 2015, 10:25:08 PM
The attempts to discredit the highly transparent work of PJGA have spurred me to ask, where is the fund that pays the more expensive and numerous portuguese and english lawyers on the other side in this legal case? Who paid for 5 foreign tourists to issue the ex-parte injunction which started this? I am sure those billionaires who donated money specifically for legal expenses would need to see a formal entity to administer their legal expenses donations, like a ltd company with directors, but where is it?
The PJGA fund is not "highly transparent".  we have no idea where all the money is, nor how much has been spent or what it has been spent on.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 16, 2015, 10:34:31 PM
The attempts to discredit the highly transparent work of PJGA have spurred me to ask, where is the fund that pays the more expensive and numerous portuguese and english lawyers on the other side in this legal case? Who paid for 5 foreign tourists to issue the ex-parte injunction which started this? I am sure those billionaires who donated money specifically for legal expenses would need to see a formal entity to administer their legal expenses donations, like a ltd company with directors, but where is it?

Sorry - it really is none of our business.  As for my trying to discredit the PJGA fund - you are having a laugh.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 16, 2015, 10:46:30 PM
The PJGA fund is not "highly transparent".  we have no idea where all the money is, nor how much has been spent or what it has been spent on.
And what is your opinion of the fund paying for the lawyers on the other side?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 16, 2015, 10:51:25 PM
And what is your opinion of the fund paying for the lawyers on the other side?

Are the mccanns asking for donations to fund their legal adventures?   

Amaral wrote a book and made a video which infringed the mccanns rights and to line his own pockets.  The mccanns have taken action in the Portuguese courts to defend their rights and have thus far been successful. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 16, 2015, 11:07:21 PM
Sorry - it really is none of our business.  As for my trying to discredit the PJGA fund - you are having a laugh.
I respect you forum friend and am not laughing at you, I am laughing at the PR advisors who have been beaten by a tiny appeal started by one young person. 40K within a few weeks IMO.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 16, 2015, 11:10:52 PM
I respect you forum friend and am not laughing at you, I am laughing at the PR advisors who have been beaten by a tiny appeal started by one young person. 40K within a few weeks IMO.

Hypothetically, would the GBP donate to that appeal if they knew there was 2million Euros in it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: DCI on June 16, 2015, 11:12:12 PM
And what is your opinion of the fund paying for the lawyers on the other side?

You seem to forget all the money Kate and Gerry and their Friends have put into the fund. What has Amaral put into his?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on June 16, 2015, 11:16:08 PM
You seem to forget all the money Kate and Gerry and their Friends have put into the fund. What has Amaral put into his?
Amaral is a taker.

The Mccanns are givers.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 16, 2015, 11:22:10 PM
Are the mccanns asking for donations to fund their legal adventures?   

Amaral wrote a book and made a video which infringed the mccanns rights and to line his own pockets.  The mccanns have taken action in the Portuguese courts to defend their rights and have thus far been successful.
Reportedly billionaires made donations specifically for legal expenses. The biggest donations to GFM appeal are two donations of a grand, so far.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 16, 2015, 11:24:49 PM
And what is your opinion of the fund paying for the lawyers on the other side?
I don't really care tbh, but please don't make out that Amaral's Fund is completely transparent, it's anything but IMO.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 16, 2015, 11:34:10 PM
Hypothetically, would the GBP donate to that appeal if they knew there was 2million Euros in it?
To fund fighting against Mr Amaral's appeal?
Two million or nothing, the GBP's response would be exactly the same, to the penny.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 17, 2015, 07:14:28 AM
Amaral is a taker.

The Mccanns are givers.

 @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 17, 2015, 07:22:14 AM
Amaral has told us he is appealing against the sentence...he hasn't mentioned the verdict or judgement...a big climbdown
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 17, 2015, 07:27:21 AM
Amaral has told us he is appealing against the sentence...he hasn't mentioned the verdict or judgement...a big climbdown

Wrong dave.

Just wait for the appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 17, 2015, 07:29:31 AM
Wrong dave.

Just wait for the appeal.
amaral's own words..
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 17, 2015, 07:38:54 AM
amaral's own words..

Did he speak them ?

Or were they typed on his behalf ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 17, 2015, 07:52:25 AM
Did he speak them ?

Or were they typed on his behalf ?

you mean like the mccanns statements
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 17, 2015, 07:56:30 AM
you mean like the mccanns statements

i.e. It wasn't given directly from Amaral, was it ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 17, 2015, 07:58:18 AM
i.e. It wasn't given directly from Amaral, was it ?

like the mccanns statements
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 17, 2015, 08:00:34 AM
Caros amigos,




Hoje, dia 15 de Junho, deu entrada no Tribunal Cível de Lisboa o meu recurso de apelação contra a sentença anteriormente proferida no julgamento relativo ao meu livro, "Maddie, A Verdade da Mentira".




Resta-me aguardar serenamente a decisão do Tribunal da Relação, reiterando a minha confiança na Justiça portuguesa.




A onda de solidariedade que se gerou para me apoiar foi emocionante e faz-me sentir uma enorme humildade. Aqui fica o meu agradecimento pessoal a cada um de vós, que me apoiaram e continuam a apoiar; sem a vossa ajuda, nada disto teria sido possível. 




Winston Churchill disse: "Todas as grandes coisas são simples. E muitas podem ser expressas numa só palavra: liberdade; justiça; honra; dever; piedade; esperança."




Também a verdade é simples. É a verdade que me conduz, e continuará a conduzir, na sua simplicidade e grandeza.




Muito obrigado.




Gonçalo de Sousa Amaral
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 17, 2015, 08:02:04 AM
Can you speak Portuguese now dave ?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 17, 2015, 08:16:17 AM
Can you speak Portuguese now dave ?

always could
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 17, 2015, 08:17:39 AM
always could

Of course dave. *&*%£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 17, 2015, 09:14:48 AM
In this context "sentença " is most accurately transalted as "decision" which encompasses the verdict of the court on the various issue raised, and the remedy. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on June 17, 2015, 09:16:59 AM
In this context "sentença " is most accurately transalted as "decision" which encompasses the verdict of the court on the various issue raised, and the remedy.

A voice of reason, thanks.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 17, 2015, 09:20:31 AM
In this context "sentença " is most accurately transalted as "decision" which encompasses the verdict of the court on the various issue raised, and the remedy.

Thank you for that JP.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 17, 2015, 09:22:31 AM
Questions for you, JP:

- Can any elements from the injunction phase be brought up (e.g., if it was felt that points weren't adequately considered by the judge) or is that necessarily done and dusted?

- Can any new factual material be introduced to support an argument (by either side)?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 17, 2015, 09:26:35 AM
In this context "sentença " is most accurately transalted as "decision" which encompasses the verdict of the court on the various issue raised, and the remedy.

I'd agree, but I wonder why he said "sentença" and not "decisção"?
Hoje, dia 15 de Junho, deu entrada no Tribunal Cível de Lisboa o meu recurso de apelação contra a sentença anteriormente proferida no julgamento relativo ao meu livro, "Maddie, A Verdade da Mentira".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 17, 2015, 10:02:51 AM
A voice of reason, thanks.

It certainly illustrates the nuances where the translation of just one word can totally alter the meaning of a sentence.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 17, 2015, 10:09:15 AM
Questions for you, JP:

- Can any elements from the injunction phase be brought up (e.g., if it was felt that points weren't adequately considered by the judge) or is that necessarily done and dusted?

- Can any new factual material be introduced to support an argument (by either side)?

It is important to understand that an appeal is not a retrial.  The appeal will concern itself with the points raised by the appellant. 

In exceptional circumstances, the appeal court will allow one or other party to introduce, by affidavit, new evidence on matters that weren’t heard at the original trial.

However, before the appeal court will hear that evidence, the court must be persuaded that:

the evidence could not have been called at trial,
• the evidence is relevant because it relates to an issue that was a deciding factor,
• the evidence is reliable, and
• the evidence could reasonably be expected to have affected the outcome (when taken with the other evidence presented at the trial).

It’s hard to satisfy all of these conditions, so applications to introduce new evidence are very rarely successful.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 17, 2015, 10:13:24 AM
It certainly illustrates the nuances where the translation of just one word can totally alter the meaning of a sentence.

Was the pun intended? ;)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 17, 2015, 10:15:16 AM
It is important to understand that an appeal is not a retrial.  The appeal will concern itself with the points raised by the appellant. 

In exceptional circumstances, the appeal court will allow one or other party to introduce, by affidavit, new evidence on matters that weren’t heard at the original trial.

However, before the appeal court will hear that evidence, the court must be persuaded that:

the evidence could not have been called at trial,
• the evidence is relevant because it relates to an issue that was a deciding factor,
• the evidence is reliable, and
• the evidence could reasonably be expected to have affected the outcome (when taken with the other evidence presented at the trial).

It’s hard to satisfy all of these conditions, so applications to introduce new evidence are very rarely successful.

I was aware that it wouldn't be a retrial, but thanks for clarifying that point.

What about the first question?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 17, 2015, 10:20:34 AM
I was aware that it wouldn't be a retrial, but thanks for clarifying that point.

What about the first question?

The answer to the first question is:  The appeal will concern itself with the points raised by the appellant.

It will not concern itself with points from the previous phase (unless they have a direct impact on the matters raised by the appellant).

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 17, 2015, 10:23:20 AM
Was the pun intended? ;)

                              @)(++(*  Nope ... and it took me ages to see it!!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 17, 2015, 10:38:28 AM
The answer to the first question is:  The appeal will concern itself with the points raised by the appellant.

It will not concern itself with points from the previous phase (unless they have a direct impact on the matters raised by the appellant).

Thanks, that's what I thought. Reference appears to be made to some kind of instruction phase. If that's the case, I imagine that some points would have been battled out then, but then Amaral has a habit of changing lawyers.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on June 17, 2015, 10:50:04 AM
UPDATE

Maddie cop launches appeal against McCann’s record damages ‘win’ of €500,000

(http://i.imgur.com/Cc5v4Ht.jpg?1)

15 June 2015

(http://portugalresident.com/sites/default/files/styles/node-detail/public/field/image/Amaral.jpg?itok=C_hIvc5J)

Following a huge crowd-funding drive that has raised over £29,000 from well-wishers almost exclusively from the UK, former police inspector Gonçalo Amaral has today filed his appeal against the €500,000-plus damages awarded against him in a civil case taken out by the parents of Madeleine McCann. The Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral published the news this morning, thanking “each and every one” of the nearly 2000 people who have given money to the British gofundme appeal that has helped take Amaral’s legal fight to its next stage. As the message went out, donations continued apace - with over £390 raised in a matter of hours. Several of the day’s donors commented this was “news worth celebrating”, but more than one suggested the story is “unlikely to be covered by mainstream media”. Indeed, by coincidence British media is much more focused today on Madeleine’s mother Kate who is leading a bike ride for a missing people’s charity. Kate McCann has told reporters that she is “really encouraged” by progress being made by police in the eight-year hunt for her daughter. Meantime, the gofundme appeal - started by a young Birmingham woman who was only 14 when Madeleine went missing - is set to continue. Updates are promised - though with the speed of Portuguese justice it is anyone’s guess when Amaral’s appeal will be set a date for hearing. As readers may be aware, the long-running civil case taken out by Madeleine’s parents centred on claims Amaral made in his book The Truth of the Lie in which he suggested the McCanns had faked their daughter’s abduction. The McCann’s said the book caused them “devastation, desperation, anxiety and pain”. Amaral’s supporters however claim they “will not let this case pass into obscurity” and “do not tolerate the leaving of unanswered questions”.
 
natasha.donn@algarveresident.com

www.portugalresident.com/maddie-cop-launches-appeal-against-mccann’s-record-damages-‘win’-of-€500000
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 17, 2015, 11:21:50 AM
Thanks, that's what I thought. Reference appears to be made to some kind of instruction phase. If that's the case, I imagine that some points would have been battled out then, but then Amaral has a habit of changing lawyers.

The higher court will confine itself to matters that the appellant disputes, and is able to provide reasons why the decision should be modified or reversed.  This latter point is important - it is not enough for the appellant to say "I disagree" or "I don't like the decision" - he or she must argue their case. 

The respondants will then have a chance to submit their argument(s) in writing, and the case will then be considered by the court.  The court may choose to request the sides to present their cases in person.

If the second court produces the same decision, then the matter ends there.  If there is a dispute, it may proceed to the supreme court.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 17, 2015, 11:37:47 AM
The higher court will confine itself to matters that the appellant disputes, and is able to provide reasons why the decision should be modified or reversed.  This latter point is important - it is not enough for the appellant to say "I disagree" or "I don't like the decision" - he or she must argue their case. 

The respondants will then have a chance to submit their argument(s) in writing, and the case will then be considered by the court.  The court may choose to request the sides to present their cases in person.

If the second court produces the same decision, then the matter ends there.  If there is a dispute, it may proceed to the supreme court.

I would not rule out the long haul of it being referred to the supreme court, then the European Court? ... contributors to the fund will need to organise car boot or garage sales to keep up.

Does any one know if the Portuguese press have reported on the appeal yet, I've seen nothing internationally or in ours.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 17, 2015, 11:42:24 AM
I would not rule out the long haul of it being referred to the supreme court, then the European Court? ... contributors to the fund will need to organise car boot or garage sales to keep up.

Does any one know if the Portuguese press have reported on the appeal yet, I've seen nothing internationally or in ours.

I don't think he'll have the option to take it to the European Court.

The Supreme Court, maybe ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 17, 2015, 11:52:00 AM
In this context "sentença " is most accurately transalted as "decision" which encompasses the verdict of the court on the various issue raised, and the remedy.

In your opinion...that's the fourth different translation given...whilst the PJGA website translate it as sentence...what makes you think they are wrong
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 17, 2015, 11:55:37 AM
UPDATE

Maddie cop launches appeal against McCann’s record damages ‘win’ of €500,000

(http://i.imgur.com/Cc5v4Ht.jpg?1)

15 June 2015

(http://portugalresident.com/sites/default/files/styles/node-detail/public/field/image/Amaral.jpg?itok=C_hIvc5J)

Following a huge crowd-funding drive that has raised over £29,000 from well-wishers almost exclusively from the UK, former police inspector Gonçalo Amaral has today filed his appeal against the €500,000-plus damages awarded against him in a civil case taken out by the parents of Madeleine McCann. The Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral published the news this morning, thanking “each and every one” of the nearly 2000 people who have given money to the British gofundme appeal that has helped take Amaral’s legal fight to its next stage. As the message went out, donations continued apace - with over £390 raised in a matter of hours. Several of the day’s donors commented this was “news worth celebrating”, but more than one suggested the story is “unlikely to be covered by mainstream media”. Indeed, by coincidence British media is much more focused today on Madeleine’s mother Kate who is leading a bike ride for a missing people’s charity. Kate McCann has told reporters that she is “really encouraged” by progress being made by police in the eight-year hunt for her daughter. Meantime, the gofundme appeal - started by a young Birmingham woman who was only 14 when Madeleine went missing - is set to continue. Updates are promised - though with the speed of Portuguese justice it is anyone’s guess when Amaral’s appeal will be set a date for hearing. As readers may be aware, the long-running civil case taken out by Madeleine’s parents centred on claims Amaral made in his book The Truth of the Lie in which he suggested the McCanns had faked their daughter’s abduction. The McCann’s said the book caused them “devastation, desperation, anxiety and pain”. Amaral’s supporters however claim they “will not let this case pass into obscurity” and “do not tolerate the leaving of unanswered questions”.
 
natasha.donn@algarveresident.com

www.portugalresident.com/maddie-cop-launches-appeal-against-mccann’s-record-damages-‘win’-of-€500000

so another vote for my interpretation...the appeal is against the damages according to tis article
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 17, 2015, 12:02:22 PM
In your opinion...that's the fourth different translation given...whilst the PJGA website translate it as sentence...what makes you think they are wrong

What does it actually matter - this is just playing semantics.  "Decision" is the best word to use for what has actually happened - ie the court has delivered its verdicts and pronounced on its remedy - i.e it has decided or "made a decision".

Judgement - that would work too. 

Sentence is definitely the wrong word - not used in civil cases. 

Verdict - could be ok - but does not go far enough.  Because the court has delivered bot a verdicts and also pronounced on the remedy. 

So you can take your pick. 

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 17, 2015, 12:05:49 PM
What does it actually matter - this is just playing semantics.  "Decision" is the best word to use for what has actually happened - ie the court has delivered its verdicts and pronounced on its remedy - i.e it has decided or "made a decision".

Judgement - that would work too. 

Sentence is definitely the wrong word - not used in civil cases. 

Verdict - could be ok - but does not go far enough.  Because the court has delivered bot a verdicts and also pronounced on the remedy. 

So you can take your pick.

It isn't playing  semantics.......many posters have claimed amaral has little ground for appeal apart from the level of damages......

What you are highlighting is that all the translated files are similarly open to interpretation...that is not semantics
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 17, 2015, 12:27:56 PM
It isn't playing  semantics.......many posters have claimed amaral has little ground for appeal apart from the level of damages......

What you are highlighting is that all the translated files are similarly open to interpretation...that is not semantics

I am among them.  But any translation is open to interpretation, as you well know, even professional ones.

So amateur ones are very dangerous.  There really is no point in arguing over the precise meanings in a translated word or phrase.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 17, 2015, 12:43:12 PM
The higher court will confine itself to matters that the appellant disputes, and is able to provide reasons why the decision should be modified or reversed.  This latter point is important - it is not enough for the appellant to say "I disagree" or "I don't like the decision" - he or she must argue their case. 

The respondants will then have a chance to submit their argument(s) in writing, and the case will then be considered by the court.  The court may choose to request the sides to present their cases in person.

If the second court produces the same decision, then the matter ends there.  If there is a dispute, it may proceed to the supreme court.

Yep, but the injunction circus seems to have been more complicated than that, according to Kate's book.

An injunction was filed, which was rejected (any damage already done).
They appealed, and won.
GA counter appealed, and lost.
GA appealed to the SC and won.

Unless I got lost somewhere along the way...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 17, 2015, 12:47:12 PM
I am among them.  But any translation is open to interpretation, as you well know, even professional ones.

So amateur ones are very dangerous.  There really is no point in arguing over the precise meanings in a translated word or phrase.

absolutely...so we still do not really know if amaral has appealed against the sentence or the verdict
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 17, 2015, 01:07:06 PM
absolutely...so we still do not really know if amaral has appealed against the sentence or the verdict

Appeals can be raised challenging facts in the case, or points of law. 

If successful, the effect on the decision of the court will then be determined. 

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 17, 2015, 01:13:29 PM
Appeals can be raised challenging facts in the case, or points of law. 

If successful, the effect on the decision of the court will then be determined.
cannot an appeal be based solely against the level of damages
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 17, 2015, 01:23:43 PM
cannot an appeal be based solely against the level of damages

Turn it around. He may hope to overturn the ruling entirely, or simply limit the amount awarded in compensation. In order to attempt to do so, he has to challenge the bases of the ruling (based on points of law or fact, or both).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 17, 2015, 01:32:34 PM
Turn it around. He may hope to overturn the ruling entirely, or simply limit the amount awarded in compensation. In order to attempt to do so, he has to challenge the bases of the ruling (based on points of law or fact, or both).

that's fine...so he cannot simply challenge the level of damages based on the fact that they are excessive and never before seen in Portugal...according to our Portuguese posters
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 17, 2015, 01:35:24 PM
Yep, but the injunction circus seems to have been more complicated than that, according to Kate's book.

An injunction was filed, which was rejected (any damage already done).
They appealed, and won.
GA counter appealed, and lost.
GA appealed to the SC and won.

Unless I got lost somewhere along the way...

Not correct, sorry.

An injunction was filed, there were then the court hearings. The judge in that case upheld the injunction. Gonçalo Amaral appealed and won when the Tribunal da Relação overturned the injunction and the book ban. The McCanns then appealed to the Supreme Court and lost.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 17, 2015, 01:41:21 PM
Turn it around. He may hope to overturn the ruling entirely, or simply limit the amount awarded in compensation. In order to attempt to do so, he has to challenge the bases of the ruling (based on points of law or fact, or both).

Exactly Carana

He will need to present a case to overturn the judgement of the court.

There was an earlier mention of referral to the ECHR. 

This is often bandied about as a possibility by disgruntled litigants.  "if I don't get satisfaction I'll take my case to the ECHR".

There are two points to consider.


In this case, it is a civil case "McCanns V Amaral" which should give a clue as to his chances of success.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 17, 2015, 01:43:34 PM
Not correct, sorry.

An injunction was filed, there were then the court hearings. The judge in that case upheld the injunction. Gonçalo Amaral appealed and won when the Tribunal da Relação overturned the injunction and the book ban. The McCanns then appealed to the Supreme Court and lost.

Partially correct, Montclair. 

They lost on a part of the initial ex parte injunction - i.e. the an on sales of his book.

The remaining parts remained intact - i.e the sequestration of funds.. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 17, 2015, 01:49:37 PM
Not correct, sorry.

An injunction was filed, there were then the court hearings. The judge in that case upheld the injunction. Gonçalo Amaral appealed and won when the Tribunal da Relação overturned the injunction and the book ban. The McCanns then appealed to the Supreme Court and lost.

Was Kate mistaken, then, in her account of the process?

P. 341 Madeleine. Hardcover. According to her, the initial application for an injunction was rejected, but they were granted the right to appeal and they initially won on appeal (Sept 2009).

"The injunction against Amaral's book and DVD was initially rejected on the basis that any damage had already been done (decision 1)."

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 17, 2015, 01:52:12 PM
So Amaral is guilty of libel.

By English libel law, Amaral is guilty of libel.

By Portuguese libel law (more exacting in terms of what must be shown before libel is taken as proved) Amaral is guilty of libel.

Amaral himself does not dispute the fact.

Amaral's dispute is that damage awarded to the McCanns (in respect of proven and established libel) is too high.

How much of the money in the fund will be needed to mount that defence?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 17, 2015, 02:17:40 PM
So Amaral is guilty of libel.

By English libel law, Amaral is guilty of libel.

By Portuguese libel law (more exacting in terms of what must be shown before libel is taken as proved) Amaral is guilty of libel.

Amaral himself does not dispute the fact.

Amaral's dispute is that damage awarded to the McCanns (in respect of proven and established libel) is too high.

How much of the money in the fund will be needed to mount that defence?

Can you remind us ferryman of what the trial was about and what the mccanns failed to prove ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 17, 2015, 02:29:30 PM
Can you remind us ferryman of what the trial was about and what the mccanns failed to prove ?

The McCanns proved that Amaral libelled them.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 17, 2015, 02:33:01 PM
The McCanns proved that Amaral libelled them.

It wasn't a libel trial ferryman.

Likewise the accidental death thesis has not been disproved, but you know that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 17, 2015, 02:35:51 PM
It wasn't a libel trial ferryman.

Likewise the accidental death thesis has not been disproved, but you know that.

Oh dear.

It seems evident to us and because the files contain enough elements for such, that the crime of exposure or abandonment according to article 138 of the Penal Code can be eliminated from that range:

"1 - Whoever places another person's life in danger,
a) By exposing her in a location where she is subject to a situation from which she, on her own, cannot defend herself against; or
b) Abandoning her without defence, whenever the agent had the duty to guard her, to watch over her or to assist her;"

This legal type of crime is only fulfilled with intent, and this intent has to cover the creation of danger to the victim's life, as well as the absence of a capacity to defend herself, on the victim's behalf. In the case of the files and facing the elements that were collected it is evident that none of the arguidos Gerald or Kate acted with intent. The parents could not foresee that in the resort that they chose to spend a brief holiday, they could place the life of any of their children in danger, nor was that demanded from them: it was located in a peaceful area, where most of the residents are foreign citizens of the same nationality and without any known history of this type of criminality.

The parents didn't even represent the realisation of the fact, they trusted that everything would go well, as it had gone on the previous evenings, thus not equating, nor was it demanded from them, the possibility of the occurrence of an abduction of any of the children that were in their respective apartments.


Portuguese prosecutors.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 17, 2015, 02:40:44 PM
To be clear, the prosecutors said that Kate and Gerry could not, reasonably, have been expected to foresee abduction ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 17, 2015, 02:48:28 PM
I see the money in the defence fund has now topped £30,000 (thirty thousand pounds) ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 17, 2015, 02:58:49 PM
I see the money in the defence fund has now topped £30,000 (thirty thousand pounds) ....

Excellent.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 17, 2015, 03:01:59 PM
I see the Cybermen have been out again witheir latest phrase. *&*%£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 17, 2015, 03:22:16 PM
I don't know how much of that money would be needed to mount such a defence.

But if enough (I would have thought so) why is the appeal still running?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 17, 2015, 04:00:03 PM
I don't know how much of that money would be needed to mount such a defence.

But if enough (I would have thought so) why is the appeal still running?
£30K is less than the initial estimated cost of appealing.
I predict GFM will go over £100K when the GBP really hear about it.
Its important that it does, so the GBP can stick their fingers in the air at a couple of billionaires who pay the other side's legal expenses
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 17, 2015, 04:01:22 PM
It wasn't a libel trial ferryman.

Likewise the accidental death thesis has not been disproved, but you know that.

My understanding is that whatever happened to the child hasn't been proven in a criminal court, and is therefore not applicable to this civil case.

And that goes both ways, but IMO that decision (which was also the case in the Murat appeal) has made it more difficult for the McCanns.

I don't see how this case would have seen the light of day in a UK court if Amaral had had to actually substantiate anything beyond waving a police record in the air.   
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 17, 2015, 04:03:22 PM
£30K is less than the initial estimated cost of appealing.
I predict GFM will go over £100K when the GBP really hear about it.
Its important that it does, so the GBP can stick their fingers in the air at a couple of billionaires who pay the other side's legal expenses

How were the estimated costs of appealing arrived at?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 17, 2015, 04:12:23 PM
My understanding is that whatever happened to the child hasn't been proven in a criminal court, and is therefore not applicable to this civil case.

And that goes both ways, but IMO that decision (which was also the case in the Murat appeal) has made it more difficult for the McCanns.

I don't see how this case would have seen the light of day in a UK court if Amaral had had to actually substantiate anything beyond waving a police record in the air.

If, by that, you mean the case wouldn't have seen light of day in UK court because Amaral's guilt (of libel!) would be inarguable, then agreed.

That's why neither Amaral's book nor his video would have seen light of day (for sale!) in England.

But if you mean anything else, then disagreed.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 17, 2015, 04:18:08 PM
Are documents submitted in the 2008 High Court case publically accessible?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 17, 2015, 04:21:09 PM
Are documents submitted in the 2008 High Court case publicly accessible?

In respect of what?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 17, 2015, 04:25:00 PM
How were the estimated costs of appealing arrived at?
Presumably estimated hours at xxx euros an hour plus court fees costs etc.
Same way the other side works out the cost of fighting against the appeal.
Except for them its probably more like 4 times xxxx euros an hour?
And that's just one side of them.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 17, 2015, 04:27:39 PM
£30K is less than the initial estimated cost of appealing.
I predict GFM will go over £100K when the GBP really hear about it.
Its important that it does, so the GBP can stick their fingers in the air at a couple of billionaires who pay the other side's legal expenses

I think that you are correct that Mr Amaral will want a great deal more to be contributed to his fund ... and I am sure there are those among his following who will feel themselves only too privileged to keep their contributions going.

I fear you will be greatly disappointed if you are holding out the hope the Great British Public will be falling over themselves to contribute ... I think the number of those willing to give him money has reached its zenith ... and any future number count will rely on repeat donations just as the present one does.

Surely Portuguese contributors must also be digging deep although neither you nor I know what is going in and what is going out of the PJGA account.

The mystery at the moment is where are the Portuguese Press in all this ... so far they seem underwhelmed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 17, 2015, 04:33:52 PM
In respect of what?
To get a copy of a document submitted by LP to the HC in 2008 and to send it to Portugal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 17, 2015, 04:37:30 PM
To get a copy of a document submitted by LP to the HC in 2008 and to send it to Portugal.

About what?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 17, 2015, 04:51:09 PM
I think that you are correct that Mr Amaral will want a great deal more to be contributed to his fund ... and I am sure there are those among his following who will feel themselves only too privileged to keep their contributions going.

I fear you will be greatly disappointed if you are holding out the hope the Great British Public will be falling over themselves to contribute ... I think the number of those willing to give him money has reached its zenith ... and any future number count will rely on repeat donations just as the present one does.

Surely Portuguese contributors must also be digging deep although neither you nor I know what is going in and what is going out of the PJGA account.

The mystery at the moment is where are the Portuguese Press in all this ... so far they seem underwhelmed.
Yes the silence of the press (in both countries) is a mystery.
We know the two current SIOs have been very busy working together this year but have released no information about what they are doing. Is it possible the two SIOs have 'arranged' for press in both countries to keep quiet about the whole case for a while? Wouldn't it be great if they are about to really solve the case?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 17, 2015, 05:00:00 PM
If, by that, you mean the case wouldn't have seen light of day in UK court because Amaral's guilt (of libel!) would be inarguable, then agreed.

That's why neither Amaral's book nor his video would have seen light of day (for sale!) in England.

But if you mean anything else, then disagreed.

Sorry, that wasn't clear. Yes, I do mean that no UK publisher / broadcaster without a death wish would have gone near Amaral's "works" with a 10-foot bargepole as waving a police record in the air means zilch, quite aside from the so-called hearsay assertions, "honest opinion" and numerous other points.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 17, 2015, 05:06:09 PM
About what?
You presumably have the book on your shelf. Page 316. Can Joe Public apply to the High Court office for a copy of this document?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 17, 2015, 05:12:33 PM
Yes the silence of the press (in both countries) is a mystery.
We know the two current SIOs have been very busy working together this year but have released no information about what they are doing. Is it possible the two SIOs have 'arranged' for press in both countries to keep quiet about the whole case for a while? Wouldn't it be great if they are about to really solve the case?

Dr McCann is not going to break her silence to comment on progress in the case and the close working relationship between Scotland Yard and the Polícia Judiciária if it would risk the investigation in any way whatsoever.
She sounded very positive so I think things must be going well, I agree it would be the best news if they can solve the case and the sooner the better.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 17, 2015, 05:36:24 PM
Yes the silence of the press (in both countries) is a mystery.
We know the two current SIOs have been very busy working together this year but have released no information about what they are doing. Is it possible the two SIOs have 'arranged' for press in both countries to keep quiet about the whole case for a while? Wouldn't it be great if they are about to really solve the case?
What does "really solve the case" mean to you?  Does it mean actually solve it, or does it mean charge the McCanns with something?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 17, 2015, 07:21:01 PM
Yes the silence of the press (in both countries) is a mystery.
We know the two current SIOs have been very busy working together this year but have released no information about what they are doing. Is it possible the two SIOs have 'arranged' for press in both countries to keep quiet about the whole case for a while? Wouldn't it be great if they are about to really solve the case?

Well, as Amaral was fond of saying, "justice works in silence". Perhaps it's finally happening.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on June 17, 2015, 07:25:56 PM
What does "really solve the case" mean to you?  Does it mean actually solve it, or does it mean charge the McCanns with something?

....as opposed to only charge someone else.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 17, 2015, 07:30:08 PM
....as opposed to only charge someone else.
No, if the Met find strong evidence to charge the McCanns I will be astounded, disappointed but also glad that the case has been solved (assuming they were also found guilty).  If someone else is charged would you go through similar emotions?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on June 17, 2015, 07:48:13 PM
No, if the Met find strong evidence to charge the McCanns I will be astounded, disappointed but also glad that the case has been solved (assuming they were also found guilty).  If someone else is charged would you go through similar emotions?

Given the same evidence, yes.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 17, 2015, 08:17:48 PM
Given the same evidence, yes.
Why would you be disappointed if the McCanns were proven not to be guilty?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 17, 2015, 08:21:17 PM
To be clear, the prosecutors said that Kate and Gerry could not, reasonably, have been expected to foresee abduction ....

That does not mean they believed there was one, (which is what you are trying to suggest is true,) as evidenced by their saying the nature of the crime is unknown.
They used that (as well as other scenarios) as an example of any danger befalling the children but as usual you have cherry picked
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 17, 2015, 08:30:59 PM
That does not mean they believed there was one, (which is what you are trying to suggest is true,) as evidenced by their saying the nature of the crime is unknown.
They used that (as well as other scenarios) as an example of any danger befalling the children but as usual you have cherry picked

Of course it does ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 17, 2015, 08:32:06 PM
Of course it does ...

No it does not, it can't possibly mean that for the reason I gave before.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 17, 2015, 09:21:34 PM
No it does not, it can't possibly mean that for the reason I gave before.

The prosecutors eliminated abandonment (a possible charge) then said this:

The parents could not foresee that in the resort that they chose to spend a brief holiday, they could place the life of any of their children in danger, nor was that demanded from them: it was located in a peaceful area, where most of the residents are foreign citizens of the same nationality and without any known history of this type of criminality.

So what did the prosecutors decline to rule out as something the McCanns might be guilty of?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 17, 2015, 09:24:45 PM
The prosecutors eliminated abandonment (a possible charge) then said this:

The parents could not foresee that in the resort that they chose to spend a brief holiday, they could place the life of any of their children in danger, nor was that demanded from them: it was located in a peaceful area, where most of the residents are foreign citizens of the same nationality and without any known history of this type of criminality.

So what did the prosecutors decline to rule out as something the McCanns might be guilty of?

Yet we are then told by some the area is full of paedophiles ?

The excuses made by the mccanns do not make sense, never have, never will.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 17, 2015, 09:29:30 PM
The prosecutors eliminated abandonment (a possible charge) then said this:

The parents could not foresee that in the resort that they chose to spend a brief holiday, they could place the life of any of their children in danger, nor was that demanded from them: it was located in a peaceful area, where most of the residents are foreign citizens of the same nationality and without any known history of this type of criminality.

So what did the prosecutors decline to rule out as something the McCanns might be guilty of?

they are tlking about the wilful neglect, you still have to prove the prosecutirs have said there WAS an abduction

I may have missed it
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on June 17, 2015, 09:41:24 PM
Why would you be disappointed if the McCanns were proven not to be guilty?

Why would you be disappointed if they were proven to be guilty?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 17, 2015, 09:51:38 PM
they are tlking about the wilful neglect, you still have to prove the prosecutirs have said there WAS an abduction

I may have missed it

- Despite all of this, it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively - the most dramatic - to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 17, 2015, 11:15:08 PM
- Despite all of this, it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively - the most dramatic - to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely.

nope, try again, all that says is they are at a loss to know what happened
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 17, 2015, 11:17:29 PM
nope, try again, all that says is they are at a loss to know what happened

You are the one who ought to try again ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 17, 2015, 11:19:21 PM
You are the one who ought to try again ...

No you have go post the part of the prosecutors argument that says we believe an abduction happened and so far you have failed to convince me
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 17, 2015, 11:22:20 PM
... so far you have failed to convince me

I'm sure I'll find a way to cope ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 17, 2015, 11:24:20 PM
I'm sure I'll find a way to cope ....

its not about YOU "coping" its about  you backing up your assertions, shouldnt be hard if theyre true
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 17, 2015, 11:25:29 PM
its not about YOU "coping" its about  you backing up your assertions, shouldnt be hard if theyre true

I do, fully, understand why you fail to comprehend that I have ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 17, 2015, 11:34:56 PM
I do, fully, understand why you fail to comprehend that I have ...

you have done no such thing Ferryman..we all know you cherry pick and misconstrue evidence as well to please yourself...just not good enough
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 17, 2015, 11:40:57 PM
you have done no such thing Ferryman..we all know you cherry pick and misconstrue evidence as well to please yourself...just not good enough

In case you missed it, the prosecutors couldn't decide whether Madeleine was victim of targeted or opportunistic abduction.

Since Scotland Yard are investigating a series of robberies at the time, that tends to suggest they think opportunistic

But definitely abduction ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 17, 2015, 11:45:54 PM
In case you missed it, the prosecutors couldn't decide whether Madeleine was victim of targeted or opportunistic abduction.

Since Scotland Yard are investigating a series of robberies at the time, that tends to suggest they think opportunistic

But definitely abduction ....

no no no, they said alot more than that, cherry picking again lol, cutting and pasting but never in full,  it will never wash
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 17, 2015, 11:47:59 PM
no no no, they said alot more than that, cherry picking again lol, cutting and pasting but never in full,  it will never wash

I've given you the direct quotes that prove what I say.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 17, 2015, 11:50:14 PM
I've given you the direct quotes that prove what I say.

Just remind me what it was exactly that you claim before i confidently rebut you

Pls dont say the pps confirmed madeleine was abducted because you will lose

Back later or tomorrow
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 17, 2015, 11:54:23 PM
Just remind me what it was exactly that you claim before i confidently rebut you

Pls dont say the pps confirmed madeleine was abducted because you will lose

Back later or tomorrow

If you need reminding, that bodes ill for your apparent resolve to "rebut" me.

You've made the wisest choice to retire from the fray (defeated!)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 18, 2015, 12:05:10 AM
In case you missed it, the prosecutors couldn't decide whether Madeleine was victim of targeted or opportunistic abduction.

Since Scotland Yard are investigating a series of robberies at the time, that tends to suggest they think opportunistic

But definitely abduction ....
Really?
The British police are investigating potential crimes in a foreign country where they have no authority to act?
Leave it out .
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 18, 2015, 12:24:39 AM
If you need reminding, that bodes ill for your apparent resolve to "rebut" me.

You've made the wisest choice to retire from the fray (defeated!)

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt silly moo


And you still havent proven the prosecutor said Madeleine was abducted, your problem pal
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 18, 2015, 12:54:34 AM
In case you missed it, the prosecutors couldn't decide whether Madeleine was victim of targeted or opportunistic abduction.

Since Scotland Yard are investigating a series of robberies at the time, that tends to suggest they think opportunistic

But definitely abduction ....

Burglary gone wrong was one of the possibilities from the start.

The idea of a robbery gone wrong is not to be ruled out either. During the holidays, burglaries are not rare, and the police are not always informed, because hotels avoid spreading this kind of information. Even if the examination of apartment 5A reveals no trace of a break-in - contrary to what the parents insist and that Sky announced - we have to take stock of the petty crimes committed in the seaside resort and at the tourist complex. We are counting on the management of the hotel so that no incident of this nature remains hidden. Even if we don't have much belief in the scenario of a burglar who enters the apartment for a burglary and leaves it with the child, dead or alive, this hypothesis, as ridiculous as it may be, must not be neglected.

FIRST MORNING OF THE INVESTIGATION;
AN ABDUCTION?

Still May 4th

When drawing up the report of the first observations, which must be forwarded to the district Judiciary Court of Lagos, we are undecided about the legal denomination of the events. Finally, we opt for "abduction??," adding two question marks after the word to express our uncertainty. The decision was not taken lightly. That decision preserves the interests of the various opposing parties, those of the parents, those of the child, not to say those of the investigation itself.

The report by the team who conducted the analyses of the apartment records all observations carried out and statements gathered. It sets out the list of people present and potential witnesses. It also includes fingerprints taken as well as photographic documentation.

On reading this report, which was given to me on the morning of May 4th, I understand that there is no evidence sufficiently convincing to tip the investigation in one direction rather than another. There are many possible leads: voluntary disappearance - the child could have wakened and not seeing her parents, gone off to look for them; accidental death and concealing of a body; physical abuse causing death; murder by negligence or premeditated; an act of vengeance; taken hostage followed by a ransom demand; abducted by a paedophile; kidnap or murder committed by a burglar.

The hypothesis of abduction widens and complicates the investigations; it allows the mobilisation of means and resources that would have been difficult to obtain otherwise, such as the arrival of reinforcements, absolutely indispensable faced with the magnitude of the task, notably in the course of the first 72 hours. In a more calm climate, we could have got down to the search for evidence more effectively, allowing us to understand how that child disappeared, without worrying that suspicion might fall on the friends of the family. (TOTL)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 18, 2015, 09:21:35 AM
I don't know where they get the idea that hotels do not inform the police of burglaries? I worked in 3 different resorts and whenever there was a break-in or a burglary reported by a client, we got in touch with the GNR immediately, who came as quickly as possible. Even if it was not possible to catch the culprit, it at least gave the clients the chance to make an insurance claim, using the police document.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 18, 2015, 09:35:27 AM
I don't know where they get the idea that hotels do not inform the police of burglaries? I worked in 3 different resorts and whenever there was a break-in or a burglary reported by a client, we got in touch with the GNR immediately, who came as quickly as possible. Even if it was not possible to catch the culprit, it at least gave the clients the chance to make an insurance claim, using the police document.

Just guessing, but some of them seem to have occurred in unlocked apartments. I assume no insurance claim would be paid in that case, so perhaps no-one bothered to get the 'incident number' or the Portuguese equivalent? I wonder if Mrs Fenn's incident was reported by her when it happened? We don't know, do we.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on June 19, 2015, 12:05:18 AM
Just guessing, but some of them seem to have occurred in unlocked apartments. I assume no insurance claim would be paid in that case, so perhaps no-one bothered to get the 'incident number' or the Portuguese equivalent? I wonder if Mrs Fenn's incident was reported by her when it happened? We don't know, do we.
A wild card, eh?

A complete guess.  Hope that it doesn't become another myth.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 19, 2015, 09:22:32 AM
Just guessing, but some of them seem to have occurred in unlocked apartments. I assume no insurance claim would be paid in that case, so perhaps no-one bothered to get the 'incident number' or the Portuguese equivalent? I wonder if Mrs Fenn's incident was reported by her when it happened? We don't know, do we.

Whenever a client came to the reception to report a burglary, we always called the GNR immediately. Never did we say to the client that it was not worth getting the police involved. I cannot imagine any other resort ignoring the client's complaint.

As for Mrs.Fenn's incident, all we know is that her niece mentioned it. Whether it was true or not, we don't know.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on June 19, 2015, 09:32:24 AM
Whenever a client came to the reception to report a burglary, we always called the GNR immediately. Never did we say to the client that it was not worth getting the police involved. I cannot imagine any other resort ignoring the client's complaint.

As for Mrs.Fenn's incident, all we know is that her niece mentioned it. Whether it was true or not, we don't know.

From that statement it sounds as if burglaries were far from rare.  Pity MW didn't give their clients a warning about burglaries at the Welcome meeting.  Things could have been very different.

Why on earth would Mrs. Fenn's niece decide to lie about her aunt being the victim of an attempted burglary?  Please clarify.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 19, 2015, 09:54:12 AM
Whenever a client came to the reception to report a burglary, we always called the GNR immediately. Never did we say to the client that it was not worth getting the police involved. I cannot imagine any other resort ignoring the client's complaint.

As for Mrs.Fenn's incident, all we know is that her niece mentioned it. Whether it was true or not, we don't know.

It's not clear whether she reported it to the GNR, but the PJ were aware of an attempted burglary:

When questioned she said that she never saw any strange person or action before or after the event. She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.
PF statement
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 19, 2015, 10:03:45 AM
From that statement it sounds as if burglaries were far from rare.  Pity MW didn't give their clients a warning about burglaries at the Welcome meeting.  Things could have been very different.

Why on earth would Mrs. Fenn's niece decide to lie about her aunt being the victim of an attempted burglary?  Please clarify.

Petty burglaries i.e. money or valuables taken to feed their drug habit. Not violent crimes where they beat up occupants they scarper if seen. So why are they going to be scared by a 3 year old child and take her never mind silence her. If anybody heard screaming from that apartment then we can investigate it further or a sign of a break-in - glove marks etc. Burglars are only being investigated because of the raised shutters and open window facing the car park. Anybody watching an unlocked apartment wouldn't need to waste time or risk being caught. In out job done.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 19, 2015, 12:23:29 PM
 That certainly changed @)(++(*

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 19, 2015, 12:29:11 PM
Petty burglaries i.e. money or valuables taken to feed their drug habit. Not violent crimes where they beat up occupants they scarper if seen. So why are they going to be scared by a 3 year old child and take her never mind silence her. If anybody heard screaming from that apartment then we can investigate it further or a sign of a break-in - glove marks etc. Burglars are only being investigated because of the raised shutters and open window facing the car park. Anybody watching an unlocked apartment wouldn't need to waste time or risk being caught. In out job done.

Did the forensic team search for potential glove marks? If so, there's no mention of any. What would they have looked like?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 19, 2015, 12:32:43 PM
That certainly changed @)(++(*


Why is the title of that "David Hughes lies about legal costs"? The context would have been about their own defence if ever the case had come to trial.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 19, 2015, 12:37:15 PM
Why is the title of that "David Hughes lies about legal costs"? The context would have been about their own defence if ever the case had come to trial.

I know that but I didn't title it. They should be searching instead of paying lawyers.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 19, 2015, 12:41:06 PM

Topic.  Please.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 19, 2015, 02:56:22 PM
The GFM appeal is now at £31,418.
That is well over the target. And it won't be long before it reaches £40,000 IMO.
And all this despite the UK press being told to not mention the GFM appeal in their current Cyprus diversion stories.
At present most of the Great British Public are unaware of the GFM appeal, just imagine what will happen to the donation rate when they find out?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 19, 2015, 02:59:59 PM
The GFM appeal is now at £31,418.
That is well over the target. And it won't be long before it reaches £40,000 IMO.
And all this despite the UK press being told to not mention the GFM appeal in their current Cyprus diversion stories.
At present most of the Great British Public are unaware of the GFM appeal, just imagine what will happen to the donation rate when they find out?

What on earth does the latest Amaral-appeal fund have in common with the Cyprus stories?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 19, 2015, 03:11:21 PM
What on earth does the latest Amaral-appeal fund have in common with the Cyprus stories?
The UK press's Anastasia articles all mention the PDL case don't they?.
Therefore the appeal by the original SIO against a legal attack by Brits and funded by hundreds of thousands of pounds is relevant to mention.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 19, 2015, 03:46:26 PM
The UK press's Anastasia articles all mention the PDL case don't they?.
Therefore the appeal by the original SIO against a legal attack by Brits and funded by hundreds of thousands of pounds is relevant to mention.

The appeal had the column inches it deserved.
However, the attempted abduction of British children from a holiday resort  should be major headlines. If nothing else, it will serve as a potent reminder for parents to take extra care of their children while holidaying.
One can only speculate as to the level of social media hostility, against the parents of these children, which would have ensued had the kidnappers been successful.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 19, 2015, 04:08:41 PM
The appeal had the column inches it deserved.
However, the attempted abduction of British children from a holiday resort  should be major headlines. If nothing else, it will serve as a potent reminder for parents to take extra care of their children while holidaying.
One can only speculate as to the level of social media hostility, against the parents of these children, which would have ensued had the kidnappers been successful.
I think the people who buy UK papers and watch UK TV would be interested to know about the outstanding success of the GFM appeal. IMO the appeal will be staggeringly popular when the UKMSM are finally allowed to honestly report on it. Brits like an underdog.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 19, 2015, 04:27:17 PM
I think the people who buy UK papers and watch UK TV would be interested to know about the outstanding success of the GFM appeal. IMO the appeal will be staggeringly popular when the UKMSM are finally allowed to honestly report on it. Brits like an underdog.

Good luck with this.  The appeal has been funded by people with an interest in the case. 

"And all this despite the UK press being told to not mention the GFM appeal in their current Cyprus diversion stories" ?  Can we have a cite please?  because you really are talking absolute balderdash, as usual.

I don't think most normal people find Amaral has any appeal whatsoever.   8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 19, 2015, 04:34:18 PM
Good luck with this.  The appeal has been funded by people with an interest in the case. 

"And all this despite the UK press being told to not mention the GFM appeal in their current Cyprus diversion stories" ?  Can we have a cite please?  because you really are talking absolute balderdash, as usual.

I don't think most normal people find Amaral has any appeal whatsoever.   8(0(*

Most normal people ?

i.e. mccann supporters ? @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*


Likewise the vast majority of 'normal people' would not have done what the mccanns did.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 19, 2015, 04:34:57 PM
Has there been independent corroboration that Amaral has been granted leave to appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 19, 2015, 04:36:46 PM
Most normal people ?

i.e. mccann supporters ? @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

"Most normal people" excludes by definition every member of this forum.   
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 19, 2015, 04:38:52 PM
Has there been independent corroboration that Amaral has been granted leave to appeal?

All good things come to those who wait.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 19, 2015, 04:49:14 PM
"Most normal people" excludes by definition every member of this forum.

I'm sorry to disappoint JP, but I have spoken to people who don't view or go on this forum, and very few believe the mccanns story, though they feel sympathy  for loss of a child.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 19, 2015, 04:56:45 PM
Good luck with this.  The appeal has been funded by people with an interest in the case. 

"And all this despite the UK press being told to not mention the GFM appeal in their current Cyprus diversion stories" ?  Can we have a cite please?  because you really are talking absolute balderdash, as usual.

I don't think most normal people find Amaral has any appeal whatsoever.   8(0(*
It may seem like balderdash to you but Brits do like integrity and a man who quotes churchill not clever lawyers.
I will try to find a cite for the Brit press stories being manipulated.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 19, 2015, 05:01:50 PM
Good luck with this.  The appeal has been funded by people with an interest in the case. 

"And all this despite the UK press being told to not mention the GFM appeal in their current Cyprus diversion stories" ?  Can we have a cite please?  because you really are talking absolute balderdash, as usual.

I don't think most normal people find Amaral has any appeal whatsoever.   8(0(*

LOL Not my cup of tea, personally, but then he's allegedly appealing against the previous court's ruling.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 19, 2015, 05:04:16 PM
It may seem like balderdash to you but Brits do like integrity and a man who quotes churchill not clever lawyers.
I will try to find a cite for the Brit press stories being manipulated.

Churchill apparently said lots of things, supposedly including:

A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 19, 2015, 05:07:53 PM
I'm sorry to disappoint JP, but I have spoken to people who don't view or go on this forum, and very few believe the mccanns story, though they feel sympathy  for loss of a child.

What a strange existence it must be to spend leisure time posting unkindly about Madeleine McCann's parents and apparently being so obsessed it continues as your subject of conversation in the real world.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 19, 2015, 05:10:50 PM
It may seem like balderdash to you but Brits do like integrity and a man who quotes churchill not clever lawyers.
I will try to find a cite for the Brit press stories being manipulated.

Has the Portuguese press taken any interest in the story of Mr Amaral's appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 19, 2015, 05:21:28 PM
It may seem like balderdash to you but Brits do like integrity and a man who quotes churchill not clever lawyers.
I will try to find a cite for the Brit press stories being manipulated.

Integrity?  Really? 

I think you may have a rather distorted view, if you believe that this will be seen by the GBP as a case of heroic, plucky, Churchill quoting Amaral against the might of the evil McCanns, and they will rush to contribute to the "cause" 

IMO he is more likely to be seen as an ex cop lining his pockets at the expense of a missing little girl and her grieving parents?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 19, 2015, 05:26:20 PM
One small expat paper published an honest article but I saw nothing from SIC CdM RTP etc. I have already said that IMO this may be because the two police forces are together making real genuine progress and MSM here and there have been nudged to keep quiet for now, just my opinion.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 19, 2015, 05:30:06 PM
One small expat paper published an honest article but I saw nothing from SIC CdM RTP etc. I have already said that IMO this may be because the two police forces are together making real genuine progress and MSM here and there have been nudged to keep quiet for now, just my opinion.

So you can't provide a cite.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 19, 2015, 05:34:59 PM
What a strange existence it must be to spend leisure time posting unkindly about Madeleine McCann's parents and apparently being so obsessed it continues as your subject of conversation in the real world.

Wrong again brietta.

The number of conversations I have had about it would be in single figures.

However, you're undeniably obsessive in your support of the mccanns on here.

Meanwhile how many times do you discuss this case outside the forum ? 8(*(
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 19, 2015, 05:42:42 PM
Wrong again brietta.

The number of conversations I have had about it would be in single figures.

However, you're undeniably obsessive in your support of the mccanns on here.

Meanwhile how many times do you discuss this case outside the forum ? 8(*(

Priceless!  Sorry Stephen - you are actually accusing Brietta of being obsessive?  Do you have any self awareness at all?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 19, 2015, 05:43:40 PM
Integrity?  Really? 

I think you may have a rather distorted view, if you believe that this will be seen by the GBP as a case of heroic, plucky, Churchill quoting Amaral against the might of the evil McCanns, and they will rush to contribute to the "cause" 

IMO he is more likely to be seen as an ex cop lining his pockets at the expense of a missing little girl and her grieving parents?
You probably would refuse a "men of integrity on video" duel?
If you don't refuse I could start a thread and post just one video of a man of integrity so people can look the horse in the mouth and judge his integrity visually, body language and all. You can have as many shots as you wish by posting multiple videos showing any men of integrity on your side who you think display even one-hundreth the qualities of integrity that Mr Amaral does. 0546 ?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 19, 2015, 05:48:06 PM
Wrong again brietta.

The number of conversations I have had about it would be in single figures.

However, you're undeniably obsessive in your support of the mccanns on here.

Meanwhile how many times do you discuss this case outside the forum ? 8(*(

Maybe you will have your ear to the ground and be able to speculate when the Portuguese press are going to report anything at all about Mr Amaral's appeal.  No interviews on the TV or in the press ?? the silence is deafening.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 19, 2015, 05:54:23 PM
You probably would refuse a "men of integrity on video" duel?
If you don't refuse I could start a thread and post just one video of a man of integrity so people can look the horse in the mouth and judge his integrity visually, body language and all. You can have as many shots as you wish by posting multiple videos showing any men of integrity on your side who you think display even one-hundreth the qualities of integrity that Mr Amaral does. 0546 ?

Pegasus ... in which way do you think Mr Amaral epitomises integrity either in his private or his professional life?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 19, 2015, 05:56:59 PM
You probably would refuse a "men of integrity on video" duel?
If you don't refuse I could start a thread and post just one video of a man of integrity so people can look the horse in the mouth and judge his integrity visually, body language and all. You can have as many shots as you wish by posting multiple videos showing any men of integrity on your side who you think display even one-hundreth the qualities of integrity that Mr Amaral does. 0546 ?

Sorry - no idea what you are getting at Pegasus.

As for amaral as a man of integrity - a couple of Portuguese courts, one criminal and one civil, dibt seem to think much of his much vaunted 'integrity' and I am happy to be guided by them. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 19, 2015, 06:06:59 PM
You probably would refuse a "men of integrity on video" duel?
If you don't refuse I could start a thread and post just one video of a man of integrity so people can look the horse in the mouth and judge his integrity visually, body language and all. You can have as many shots as you wish by posting multiple videos showing any men of integrity on your side who you think display even one-hundreth the qualities of integrity that Mr Amaral does. 0546 ?
So, you post a youtube vid of Gonc, then I'd post a vid of Archbishop of York John Sentamu and you'd win, is that how this Men Of Integrity duel thing work then?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 19, 2015, 06:11:01 PM
Sorry - no idea what you are getting at Pegasus.

As for amaral as a man of integrity - a couple of Portuguese courts, one criminal and one civil, dibt seem to think much of his much vaunted 'integrity' and I am happy to be guided by them.
So presumably you have never watched an interview video and thought, yes, everything is right, he talks straight, answers questions directly, never evades or manipulates, this is a man I would trust.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 19, 2015, 06:13:30 PM
Maybe you will have your ear to the ground and be able to speculate when the Portuguese press are going to report anything at all about Mr Amaral's appeal.  No interviews on the TV or in the press ?? the silence is deafening.

Well you have no problem then. @)(++(* @)(++(* 8((()*/

Don't the mccanns know what's going on ? 😂😂😂
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 19, 2015, 06:13:45 PM
So presumably you have never watched an interview video and thought, yes, everything is right, he talks straight, answers questions directly, never evades or manipulates, this is a man I would trust.
Everything I have seen and heard of Amaral makes me utterly convinced that there is a man I would not trust as far as I could fling him.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 19, 2015, 06:18:28 PM
So presumably you have never watched an interview video and thought, yes, everything is right, he talks straight, answers questions directly, never evades or manipulates, this is a man I would trust.

Can I just check, Pegasus.  This is goncarlo amaral, ex Portuguese detective, we are talking about?  The chap with a criminal conviction for covering up torture of a female suspect? 

Just checking?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 19, 2015, 06:31:07 PM
Pegasus, Amaral claimed he was going to donate some of the proceeds of his Maddie money to childrens charity.  Did he ever do so?  If so, how much did he give?  Or are we supposed to just assume that because he is "a man of integrity" that he must have done?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 19, 2015, 06:39:23 PM
So, you post a youtube vid of Gonc, then I'd post a vid of Archbishop of York John Sentamu and you'd win, is that how this Men Of Integrity duel thing work then?
The duel was not accepted so forget it. The other side have no "man of integrity" video to duel with mine, I have had a lucky escape.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on June 19, 2015, 06:42:45 PM
So presumably you have never watched an interview video and thought, yes, everything is right, he talks straight, answers questions directly, never evades or manipulates, this is a man I would trust.

Good grief!  I can't believe you are actually being serious Pegasus.  I'm gobsmacked!

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 19, 2015, 06:48:47 PM
The duel was not accepted so forget it. The other side have no "man of integrity" video to duel with mine, I have had a lucky escape.
Oh dear, this place is getting more like the playground every day.  Top Trumps anyone?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 19, 2015, 06:55:06 PM
I suspect Pegasus was being ironic.  At least I hope he / she was.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 19, 2015, 06:55:52 PM
How can someone with a perjury conviction and who has legally been confirmed to have caused damage to the parents of a missing child be considered to have "the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles" (the dictionary definition of integrity)?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 19, 2015, 06:59:09 PM
Everything I have seen and heard of Amaral makes me utterly convinced that there is a man I would not trust as far as I could fling him.
I am talking about in video interview  the way a man talks, his body-language, his complete absence of evasiveness, his direct answering of questions. This is how a good horse dealer buys a horse, or trusts a man.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 19, 2015, 07:19:12 PM
I am talking about in video interview  the way a man talks, his body-language, his complete absence of evasiveness, his direct answering of questions. This is how a good horse dealer buys a horse, or trusts a man.
I've never watched an interview with Amaral in which he was challenged or asked any difficult questions.  He only ever seems to be asked questions by members of his own fanclub.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Erngath on June 19, 2015, 07:19:33 PM
Good evening. I haven't posted for a very long time but read on most days. Often I chuckle at posts but tonight I feel compelled to "voice" my loud chuckle at your post Alfred.

 8((()*/
ETA the one about the Top Trumps.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 19, 2015, 07:25:25 PM
Good evening. I haven't posted for a very long time but read on most days. Often I chuckle at posts but tonight I feel compelled to "voice" my loud chuckle at your post Alfred.

 8((()*/
ETA the one about the Top Trumps.
8((()*/ Glad to have provided a moment of mirth amongst the madness. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 19, 2015, 07:45:39 PM

Topic.  Please.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 19, 2015, 08:03:27 PM
In the past few hours someone has donated £200 and someone else £50 towards the costs of Mr Amaral's appeal. These IMO are serious large amounts not just small change.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 19, 2015, 09:01:45 PM
In the past few hours someone has donated £200 and someone else £50 towards the costs of Mr Amaral's appeal. These IMO are serious large amounts not just small change.

Probably recycling cash from within the fund.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 19, 2015, 09:06:31 PM
In the past few hours someone has donated £200 and someone else £50 towards the costs of Mr Amaral's appeal. These IMO are serious large amounts not just small change.
How can we be sure these donations are not being recycled?  After all, we know that funds have been withdrawn / refunded (though we have no idea exactly how much).  It would be very simple to manipulate ths fund to get it up to £100k or more.  In fact there is no limit to how many times these donations can be withdrawn and re-deposited is there?  Well not until all the money's gone in fees to GoFundMe anyway... @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 19, 2015, 09:09:40 PM
How can we be sure these donations are not being recycled?  After all, we know that funds have been withdrawn / refunded (though we have no idea exactly how much).  It would be very simple to manipulate ths fund to get it up to £100k or more.  In fact there is no limit to how many times these donations can be withdrawn and re-deposited is there?  Well not until all the money's gone in fees to GoFundMe anyway... @)(++(*

Are you suggesting that petermac ...the pretyendy policeman could have donated £1000 supposedly from a group of coppers .....then had his donation refunded....I wouldn't put it past that lot
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 19, 2015, 10:57:17 PM
It is hilarious how some are chewing the carpet and seem beside themselves because Mr Amaral is getting help for his legal bills from people who support his David and Goliath challenge, so to speak.

It is not illegal, it is transparent and clear, so what is the problem? Rhetorical question, no answers wanted. 30k raised or so versus millions. Nuff said, as the Cockneys say.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 19, 2015, 11:11:45 PM
Sorry - no idea what you are getting at Pegasus.

As for amaral as a man of integrity - a couple of Portuguese courts, one criminal and one civil, dibt seem to think much of his much vaunted 'integrity' and I am happy to be guided by them.

Ahhh but you forget some people cherry pick to suit. Amaral "must" be a liar and guilty of covering up torture but there is "no way" Ciprianos killed their child.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 19, 2015, 11:40:17 PM
Are you suggesting that petermac ...the pretyendy policeman could have donated £1000 supposedly from a group of coppers .....then had his donation refunded....I wouldn't put it past that lot
@dave1 Do you visit the FMF fund website ? Please help by confirming they have now corrected their advertised aims?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 20, 2015, 12:01:18 AM
Are you suggesting that petermac ...the pretyendy policeman could have donated £1000 supposedly from a group of coppers .....then had his donation refunded....I wouldn't put it past that lot
That donator gave £1000 with a credit or debit card. I see no reason to doubt the fact it came from a group of police personnel. Next you'll be claiming the magistrate's relative £1000 is fabricated? And the donating journalist fed up with being forced to write pink rubbish in the UK press while his/her honest articles were not printed. Is that a fake too?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 20, 2015, 12:09:03 AM
It is hilarious how some are chewing the carpet and seem beside themselves because Mr Amaral is getting help for his legal bills from people who support his David and Goliath challenge, so to speak.

It is not illegal, it is transparent and clear, so what is the problem? Rhetorical question, no answers wanted. 30k raised or so versus millions. Nuff said, as the Cockneys say.
Yes and thanks to Leanne, Mr Amaral now has a solid base of moral support from many hundreds of the great british public. It's far greater than the public support if any for the initiator of this legal case. And it will multiply tenfold when the Sun rises IMO.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 20, 2015, 05:55:53 PM
Yes and thanks to Leanne, Mr Amaral now has a solid base of moral support from many hundreds of the great british public. It's far greater than the public support if any for the initiator of this legal case. And it will multiply tenfold when the Sun rises IMO.

From a recent post on the site.....

Fact, evidence confirms someone died in apartment 5a.

The site is based on lies and Leanne is allowing lies to be told on the site...amaral's appeal is of no importance...SY will continue to investigate
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 20, 2015, 06:45:57 PM
From a recent post on the site.....

Fact, evidence confirms someone died in apartment 5a.

The site is based on lies and Leanne is allowing lies to be told on the site...amaral's appeal is of no importance...SY will continue to investigate
The appeal obviously of huge importance to the person who started this years ago with his injunction.
The appeal will determine whether Mr Amaral's opponent wins, or loses.
Rather important.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 20, 2015, 06:48:04 PM
The appeal obviously of huge importance to the person who started this years ago with his injunction.
The appeal will determine whether Mr Amaral's opponent wins, or loses.
Rather important.

Things were very different when this started...amaral has been totally discredited by now...as have his "troll supporters"...not my words
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 20, 2015, 06:50:10 PM
Things were very different when this started...amaral has been totally discredited by now...as have his "troll supporters"...not my words

No he hasn't.

The case remains unresolved and the type of crime unknown.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 20, 2015, 07:11:09 PM
Things were very different when this started...amaral has been totally discredited by now...as have his "troll supporters"...not my words
So why doesn't the individual who started this case against the SIO now drop it?
Answer - because it is very important.
If he loses against Mr Amaral's appeal will you just say oh it was of no importance?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 20, 2015, 07:23:20 PM
So why doesn't the individual who started this case against the SIO now drop it?
Answer - because it is very important.
If he loses against Mr Amaral's appeal will you just say oh it was of no importance?

Much more sensible for Mr Amaral to accept the judgement of the court I would think.  In that way everyone could get on with their lives ... including him.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 20, 2015, 07:33:18 PM
So why doesn't the individual who started this case against the SIO now drop it?
Answer - because it is very important.
If he loses against Mr Amaral's appeal will you just say oh it was of no importance?

What is all this "SIO" business?  Pretentious twaddle. What is wrong with "coordinator".

And why should they drop it now? 

Are you suggesting the McCanns are not entitled to justice? 

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 20, 2015, 07:35:39 PM
Much more sensible for Mr Amaral to accept the judgement of the court I would think.  In that way everyone could get on with their lives ... including him.
If Dave1's opinion is correct that Mr Amaral has lost all credibility, then how can the book possibly harm the search?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 20, 2015, 07:39:54 PM
If Dave1's opinion is correct that Mr Amaral has lost all credibility, then how can the book possibly harm the search?
that was not the case when the action was taken out...all those years ago things were very different
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 20, 2015, 07:40:36 PM
Much more sensible for Mr Amaral to accept the judgement of the court I would think.  In that way everyone could get on with their lives ... including him.

Much more sensible ?

Put the blame firmly where it lies, for this whole case.

The mccanns exhibiting 'responsible parenting skills'. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 20, 2015, 07:41:15 PM
So why doesn't the individual who started this case against the SIO now drop it?
Answer - because it is very important.
If he loses against Mr Amaral's appeal will you just say oh it was of no importance?

believe what you wish..it is of no importance
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 20, 2015, 07:41:27 PM
If Dave1's opinion is correct that Mr Amaral has lost all credibility, then how can the book possibly harm the search?

Because before the court case the book was widely believed (by those who didn't read it critically)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 20, 2015, 07:42:34 PM
Much more sensible ?

Put the blame firmly where it lies, for this whole case.

The mccanns exhibiting 'responsible parenting skills'. 8)-)))

The mccanns parenting was the same as the rest of the tapas...how is it nothing happened to their children
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on June 20, 2015, 07:49:44 PM
Because before the court case the book was widely believed (by those who didn't read it critically)

Folk also believed they were getting an account that came straight from the horse's mouth - as Amaral carefully avoided mentioning that he had never met or spoken to Kate McCann in his life, and had only once briefly met Gerry. In fact he deliberately gave the opposite impression throughout. 

That was dishonest IMO.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 20, 2015, 07:54:43 PM
The mccanns parenting was the same as the rest of the tapas...how is it nothing happened to their children

Did they all leave their children in unlocked accommodation ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 20, 2015, 07:55:47 PM
Because before the court case the book was widely believed (by those who didn't read it critically)

I think the sea change was when the reopening of Madeleine's case occurred  ...  in Portugal the arrests and convictions of police officers on a variety of criminal charges also must have concentrated minds.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 20, 2015, 07:55:50 PM
Did they all leave their children in unlocked accommodation ?

so is locked ok
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 20, 2015, 07:57:16 PM
so is locked ok

You are kidding ?

and what's even better is someone looking after the children.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 20, 2015, 08:13:07 PM
Folk also believed they were getting an account that came straight from the horse's mouth - as Amaral carefully avoided mentioning that he had never met or spoken to Kate McCann in his life, and had only once briefly met Gerry. In fact he deliberately gave the opposite impression throughout. 

That was dishonest IMO.

There is actually an interview with Amaral where he talks about observing Kate's reactions in a meeting with Kate.

It was supposed to be Kate's reaction to being asked about the 'sofa' theory (that Madeleine fell off it and died).

That question could only ever be put in arguido interview and Amaral played no part in those interviews.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on June 20, 2015, 08:35:16 PM
There is actually an interview with Amaral where he talks about observing Kate's reactions in a meeting with Kate.

It was supposed to be Kate's reaction to being asked about the 'sofa' theory (that Madeleine fell off it and died).

That question could only ever be put in arguido interview and Amaral played no part in those interviews.

Yes whenever the subject of his own personal contact with the McCanns came up (interviewers also seemed to have no idea that he had never met Kate and only briefly met Gerry) he wriggled and/or lied IMO. 

It's a pity that no-one ever asked him directly whether it was true that he had never met Kate or spoken to her in his life.  But as far as I could see he was simply asked questions and then allowed to sit on the couch and say whatever he liked with no awkward questions being asked at any time.

I believe there was just  one interview where he didn't get such an easy ride - but I can't remember who it was with.

All from memory so I'm happy to be corrected if necessary.
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 20, 2015, 10:01:55 PM
Yes whenever the subject of his own personal contact with the McCanns came up (interviewers also seemed to have no idea that he had never met Kate and only briefly met Gerry) he wriggled and/or lied IMO. 

It's a pity that no-one ever asked him directly whether it was true that he had never met Kate or spoken to her in his life.  But as far as I could see he was simply asked questions and then allowed to sit on the couch and say whatever he liked with no awkward questions being asked at any time.

I believe there was just  one interview where he didn't get such an easy ride - but I can't remember who it was with.

All from memory so I'm happy to be corrected if necessary.
Please would you post links to the videos where Mr Amaral wriggles or lies about meeting the parents?

IMO in his video interviews his body language and straight talking show far greater integrity than the video interviews of any of the men who so desperately attack him.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 20, 2015, 10:15:51 PM
Please would you post links to the videos where Mr Amaral wriggles or lies about meeting the parents?

IMO in his video interviews his body language and straight talking show far greater integrity than the video interviews of any of the men who so desperately attack him.

a man who covered up torture....he has no integrity
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 20, 2015, 11:20:03 PM
If Dave1's opinion is correct that Mr Amaral has lost all credibility, then how can the book possibly harm the search?


The PJ wanted wanted to suspend him ... so by my reckoning that would seem to indicate that his integrity was shot to pieces with the people best placed to have an informed opinion on the matter.


PJ asks suspension for researchers

The Disciplinary Unit of the Judicial Police asks the suspension of Paulo Pereira Cristóvão, Gonçalo Amaral and three inspectors of the PJ alleged involvement in the case of aggressions against Leonor Cipriano, condemned by death and concealment of corpse daughter, Joan, in 2004.

Ler mais em: http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/nacional/portugal/detalhe/pj-pede-suspensao-para-investigadores.html
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 20, 2015, 11:44:06 PM
a man who covered up torture....he has no integrity

I believe it is against forum rules to state something as fact without back up.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 20, 2015, 11:53:37 PM

The PJ wanted wanted to suspend him ... so by my reckoning that would seem to indicate that his integrity was shot to pieces with the people best placed to have an informed opinion on the matter.


PJ asks suspension for researchers

The Disciplinary Unit of the Judicial Police asks the suspension of Paulo Pereira Cristóvão, Gonçalo Amaral and three inspectors of the PJ alleged involvement in the case of aggressions against Leonor Cipriano, condemned by death and concealment of corpse daughter, Joan, in 2004.

Ler mais em: http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/nacional/portugal/detalhe/pj-pede-suspensao-para-investigadores.html
IYO was there any contact between people working for Mr Amaral's arch-enemy, and that woman's lawyer?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 21, 2015, 12:27:25 AM
If Mr Amaral has lost all his credibility, then no-one will listen to him, so he can't possibly impede the search, so why is his arch-enemy still continuing a court case against him?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 21, 2015, 12:30:56 AM
If Mr Amaral has lost all his credibility, then no-one will listen to him, so he can't possibly impede the search, so why is his arch-enemy still continuing a court case against him?

Money, reputation and not losing face? All in that order too. Possibly other reasons too.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 21, 2015, 12:37:17 AM
IYO was there any contact between people working for Mr Amaral's arch-enemy, and that woman's lawyer?

What woman?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 21, 2015, 12:40:53 AM
What woman?
The one in your post: LC.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 21, 2015, 12:49:47 AM
The one in your post: LC.

I think you have gone off on a tangent on Mr Amaral's appeal and are allowing emotion to override that analytical brain of yours.
Dr Kate McCann is one of the injured parties here ... not Mr Amaral who has written a book which in my opinion was partly to deliberately traduce her and implicate her in her daughter's death and disappearance.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 21, 2015, 01:10:28 AM
I think you have gone off on a tangent on Mr Amaral's appeal and are allowing emotion to override that analytical brain of yours.
Dr Kate McCann is one of the injured parties here ... not Mr Amaral who has written a book which in my opinion was partly to deliberately traduce her and implicate her in her daughter's death and disappearance.
I imagined reading that people working for the arch-enemy of Mr Amaral had been in touch with her lawyer, but I must be wrong. BTW I think Mr Amaral's "theydunit" conclusion is false, but there is something very odd about the lengths someone has gone to try to destroy him.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 21, 2015, 01:10:42 AM
I think you have gone off on a tangent on Mr Amaral's appeal and are allowing emotion to override that analytical brain of yours.
Dr Kate McCann is one of the injured parties here ... not Mr Amaral who has written a book which in my opinion was partly to deliberately traduce her and implicate her in her daughter's death and disappearance.

The only way K McCann is an injured party is she is innocent, that hasn't been declared by any any authority at least, and the Portuguese authorities have stated the nature of the crime is unknown, so, the lawsuit is a bit of an oxymoron to begin with
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 21, 2015, 01:12:59 AM
I imagined reading that people working for the arch-enemy of Mr Amaral had been in touch with her lawyer, but I must be wrong. BTW I think Mr Amaral's "theydunit" conclusion is false, but there is something very odd about the lengths someone has gone to try to destroy him.

At the very best, just money then, which is shameful though
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 21, 2015, 01:23:26 AM
The only way K McCann is an injured party is she is innocent, that hasn't been declared by any any authority at least, and the Portuguese authorities have stated the nature of the crime is unknown, so, the lawsuit is a bit of an oxymoron to begin with
The judge made it very clear that the current legal case is not to decide what happened on May 3rd.
Its about legal things much more trivial IMO. The document is on this thread somewhere.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 21, 2015, 01:40:01 AM
The only way K McCann is an injured party is she is innocent, that hasn't been declared by any any authority at least, and the Portuguese authorities have stated the nature of the crime is unknown, so, the lawsuit is a bit of an oxymoron to begin with

How extraordinary that you are so studiously ignoring Judge Maria Emília Melo e Castro' s ruling in this matter ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 21, 2015, 01:45:47 AM
How extraordinary that you are so studiously ignoring Judge Maria Emília Melo e Castro' s ruling in this matter ...

No different to your ilk "ignoring" other judicial decision yet screaming "they're wring they're wrong" lol

Btw I am not ignoring her decision...it is reversible, the law a,lows for wrongful decisions. That's why appeals are allowed dear
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 21, 2015, 02:28:28 AM
@mercury
"An experienced Fund Administrator has been appointed to ensure the highest standards of transparency"
So we can just write and ask.
It's obviously relevant to this thread, to know who pays for both sides' legal expenses
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 21, 2015, 02:55:50 AM
Objects of FMF:
 
"To secure the safe return to her family of Madeleine McCann who was abducted in Praia da Luz, Portugal on Thursday 3rd May 2007;
To procure that Madeleine's abduction is thoroughly investigated and that her abductors, as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them, are identified and brought to justice"


Does paying legal expenses of the current legal case fall under those two objects?

(Note to mods - it is very relevant to this thread to know who pays both sides' legal expenses)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 21, 2015, 03:05:26 AM
Objects of FMF:
 
"To secure the safe return to her family of Madeleine McCann who was abducted in Praia da Luz, Portugal on Thursday 3rd May 2007;
To procure that Madeleine's abduction is thoroughly investigated and that her abductors, as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them, are identified and brought to justice"


Does paying legal expenses of the current legal case fall under those two objects?

(Note to mods - it is very relevant to this thread to know who pays both sides' legal expenses)

IMO it does, if the Fund is actually contributing.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 21, 2015, 03:09:56 AM
Objects of FMF:
 
"To secure the safe return to her family of Madeleine McCann who was abducted in Praia da Luz, Portugal on Thursday 3rd May 2007;
To procure that Madeleine's abduction is thoroughly investigated and that her abductors, as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them, are identified and brought to justice"


Does paying legal expenses of the current legal case fall under those two objects?

(Note to mods - it is very relevant to this thread to know who pays both sides' legal expenses)


the objectives of the fund appearing in the findmadeleine.com website state also financial assistance to the family

Btw I see my post of earlier has been deleted for some reason...the one stating the FUND  paid for the legal expenses to sue Mr Amaral...how wierd

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 21, 2015, 03:24:34 AM
the objectives of the fund appearing in the findmadeleine.com website state also financial assistance to the family

Btw I see my post of earlier has been deleted for some reason...the one stating the FUND  paid for the legal expenses to sue Mr Amaral...how wierd
You will find the correct list of objects at company house.
Trust no other source.
Only company house.
Or as we say down here in the philosophy department
RULE 1.1.3  There is no rule 1.1.3 (we scrapped it years ago just after .. .... ... ..... ........)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 21, 2015, 03:33:35 AM
(snip)...Btw I see my post of earlier has been deleted for some reason...(snip)
Forums software is not perfect, it will probably work 2nd time.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 21, 2015, 04:00:23 AM
IMO it does, if the Fund is actually contributing.
@misty If it is paying, would the expense of using Smethwick Alves and Duarte fall under the first, or the second "object"?
And would donators reasonably have anticipated this interpretation?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 21, 2015, 04:49:11 AM
Forums software is not perfect, it will probably work 2nd time.

Quite confused...I posted the FUND PAID  for suing G  Amaral whch is a FACT as typed up in black and white in the FUND ACCOUNTS
So

WHY is my post continuously being deleted! and who by? Bizarre.

Bye again
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 21, 2015, 09:27:03 AM
The only way K McCann is an injured party is she is innocent, that hasn't been declared by any any authority at least, and the Portuguese authorities have stated the nature of the crime is unknown, so, the lawsuit is a bit of an oxymoron to begin with

Which bit of "innocent until proven guilty" do you have a problem understanding?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 21, 2015, 12:24:47 PM
Which bit of "innocent until proven guilty" do you have a problem understanding?

That only applies in a court of law..however If a person kills someone  and leaves no evidence or proof this does not make that person 'innocent'.

It means they did kill someone but the police/ PF could not proof it.

I know I smashed my greenhouse window as a child. no one asked me if i did it, I didn't volunteer the information so it was 'established' it must have been 'vandals'...oops! Confessions of a children's playtime.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 21, 2015, 04:20:38 PM
@misty If it is paying, would the expense of using Smethwick Alves and Duarte fall under the first, or the second "object"?
And would donators reasonably have anticipated this interpretation?

It would fall under the second objective, IMO. The actions of the ex-SIO played no small part in assisting the abductor(s) escape justice.
As to the interpretation - the failings of the investigation were already apparent when the fund was set up, but no-one donating initially would have had a notion that a serving investigating officer would have written a book making libellous accusations against the parents & friends. He has twisted the knife time & time again and, for Madeleine's sake, he needs to be removed from the gravy train.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 21, 2015, 06:15:25 PM
Which bit of "innocent until proven guilty" do you have a problem understanding?
"Presumed" innocent in a court of law is the correct phrase JP. I have no problem there.
But what you are saying is someone could very well be guilty of a crime but nonetheless the Portuguese courts can award them damages on "presumption" not "facts". Is that really the case? Ifso, any uncharged and or convicted criminal can claim damages.

Question: What will the learned Judge think should the case arise that it is found the couple were "not innocent". Where would that leave her decision?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 21, 2015, 06:18:52 PM
It would fall under the second objective, IMO. The actions of the ex-SIO played no small part in assisting the abductor(s) escape justice.
As to the interpretation - the failings of the investigation were already apparent when the fund was set up, but no-one donating initially would have had a notion that a serving investigating officer would have written a book making libellous accusations against the parents & friends. He has twisted the knife time & time again and, for Madeleine's sake, he needs to be removed from the gravy train.

You cannot make that statement unless and until there is clear evidence of an abductor. Your statement is also ridiculously emotive and libellous, that Mr Amaral aided the "abductor". Seems you have been sucked into the murky mire.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 21, 2015, 06:58:40 PM
You cannot make that statement unless and until there is clear evidence of an abductor. Your statement is also ridiculously emotive and libellous, that Mr Amaral aided the "abductor". Seems you have been sucked into the murky mire.

Equally there is no clear evidence that there wasn't an abductor. Therefore a co-ordinator leading an investigation along a single pathway towards the parents, brushing everything & everybody aside regardless. can be considered as failing in his duty to investigate properly & assisting an offender to escape justice.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 21, 2015, 07:05:05 PM
Equally there is no clear evidence that there wasn't an abductor. Therefore a co-ordinator leading an investigation along a single pathway towards the parents, brushing everything & everybody aside regardless. can be considered as failing in his duty to investigate properly & assisting an offender to escape justice.

Subjective rubbish IMO

Even SY/Redwood said there is "no clear indicative evidence" for a death, insinuating there is, but it's not clear and indicative.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 21, 2015, 07:06:22 PM
Equally there is no clear evidence that there wasn't an abductor. Therefore a co-ordinator leading an investigation along a single pathway towards the parents, brushing everything & everybody aside regardless. can be considered as failing in his duty to investigate properly & assisting an offender to escape justice.

Good, balanced, perspective, Misty.

The prosecutors were clear that they thought Madeleine was abducted, though they were uncertain whether by an opportunistic abductor or whether Madeleine was targeted.   
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 21, 2015, 07:20:47 PM
Good, balanced, perspective, Misty.

The prosecutors were clear that they thought Madeleine was abducted, though they were uncertain whether by an opportunistic abductor or whether Madeleine was targeted.

Oh dear, the prosecutors said nothing of the sort. Unbelievable.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 21, 2015, 07:30:20 PM
Good, balanced, perspective, Misty.

The prosecutors were clear that they thought Madeleine was abducted, though they were uncertain whether by an opportunistic abductor or whether Madeleine was targeted.

The legal summary, just to remind you;

the investigation equated the verification of several hypotheses: abduction, for the purpose of sexual exploration or others (i.e. posterior adoption, child traffic, organ traffic), without homicide; abduction, followed by homicide with (or without) concealment of a cadaver, hypotheses that were considered under the double sides of the abduction (if it existed) having occurred due to feelings of vengeance of the abductor(s) towards the parents (directed abduction) or simply taking advantage of the circumstance that the child was in a situation of actual vulnerability (opportunity abduction), accidental death, with posterior concealment of the cadaver and, underlying all of these possibilities, abandonment, substantiated as a crime under article 138 of the Penal Code. The possibility of theft, whose author would have been disturbed by the child Madeleine and who, in order to prevent her from disturbing him, neutralised her in a violent manner, and, afterwards, took her with him, dead or alive, in order to leave no trace that could eventually lead to his identification................

........therefore we do not possess any minimally solid and rigorous foundation in order to be able to state, with the safety that is requested, which was or were the exact and precise crime(s) that was or were practised on the person of the minor Madeleine McCann
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 21, 2015, 07:54:20 PM
So how does that equal your statement of fact ferryman that the prosecutors said it was an abduction ferryman?

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 21, 2015, 08:41:16 PM
The legal summary, just to remind you;

the investigation equated the verification of several hypotheses: abduction, for the purpose of sexual exploration or others (i.e. posterior adoption, child traffic, organ traffic), without homicide; abduction, followed by homicide with (or without) concealment of a cadaver, hypotheses that were considered under the double sides of the abduction (if it existed) having occurred due to feelings of vengeance of the abductor(s) towards the parents (directed abduction) or simply taking advantage of the circumstance that the child was in a situation of actual vulnerability (opportunity abduction), accidental death, with posterior concealment of the cadaver and, underlying all of these possibilities, abandonment, substantiated as a crime under article 138 of the Penal Code. The possibility of theft, whose author would have been disturbed by the child Madeleine and who, in order to prevent her from disturbing him, neutralised her in a violent manner, and, afterwards, took her with him, dead or alive, in order to leave no trace that could eventually lead to his identification................

........therefore we do not possess any minimally solid and rigorous foundation in order to be able to state, with the safety that is requested, which was or were the exact and precise crime(s) that was or were practised on the person of the minor Madeleine McCann
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

How many of the several hypotheses does Amaral promote in his book?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 21, 2015, 08:47:01 PM
How many of the several hypotheses does Amaral promote in his book?

Stop changing the subject... The PPs did NOT say Madeleine was abducted as Ferryman says. deal with that first before you bore  into Amaral
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 21, 2015, 09:46:55 PM
How many of the several hypotheses does Amaral promote in his book?


Haven't read it. I was just correcting Ferryman's mistaken statement.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 21, 2015, 11:04:24 PM
Stop changing the subject... The PPs did NOT say Madeleine was abducted as Ferryman says. deal with that first before you bore  into Amaral

The PPs said abduction was one of several scenarios, not the only scenario.
In TTOTL there is only one conclusive scenario after the application of selectively edited circumstantial evidence, despite many pointers to the contrary.
Pegasus asked if there were grounds under the FMF objectives to pay for the legal action against Amaral, and I have explained why I believe there are valid reasons.
Amaral chose to make himself a spokesperson for the original investigation by writing his book. The Portuguese Justice system did not distance itself from his opinions by prosecuting him for breach of secrecy, therefore we must assume they supported him.
The McCanns couldn't sue the whole of the Portuguese Justice system
for the failures of the original investigation, but they could take action against the very public actions of a citizen who has always said he knew far more than he has ever disclosed about Madeleine's disappearance.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on June 21, 2015, 11:05:55 PM
Equally there is no clear evidence that there wasn't an abductor. Therefore a co-ordinator leading an investigation along a single pathway towards the parents, brushing everything & everybody aside regardless. can be considered as failing in his duty to investigate properly & assisting an offender to escape justice.

 8@??)(
Such a wise comment, misty
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on June 21, 2015, 11:09:33 PM
The PPs said abduction was one of several scenarios, not the only scenario.
In TTOTL there is only one conclusive scenario after the application of selectively edited circumstantial evidence, despite many pointers to the contrary.
Pegasus asked if there were grounds under the FMF objectives to pay for the legal action against Amaral, and I have explained why I believe there are valid reasons.
Amaral chose to make himself a spokesperson for the original investigation by writing his book. The Portuguese Justice system did not distance itself from his opinions by prosecuting him for breach of secrecy, therefore we must assume they supported him.
The McCanns couldn't sue the whole of the Portuguese Justice system
for the failures of the original investigation, but they could take action against the very public actions of a citizen who has always said he knew far more than he has ever disclosed about Madeleine's disappearance
.

If I recall correctly, he actually said that he knew where Madeleine was.

Am I right in saying that to know that he has to know the abductor ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 21, 2015, 11:19:55 PM
The PPs said abduction was one of several scenarios, not the only scenario.
In TTOTL there is only one conclusive scenario after the application of selectively edited circumstantial evidence, despite many pointers to the contrary.
Pegasus asked if there were grounds under the FMF objectives to pay for the legal action against Amaral, and I have explained why I believe there are valid reasons.
Amaral chose to make himself a spokesperson for the original investigation by writing his book. The Portuguese Justice system did not distance itself from his opinions by prosecuting him for breach of secrecy, therefore we must assume they supported him.
The McCanns couldn't sue the whole of the Portuguese Justice system
for the failures of the original investigation, but they could take action against the very public actions of a citizen who has always said he knew far more than he has ever disclosed about Madeleine's disappearance.

The McCanns are extremely lucky not to have been pursued by the Portuguese State over their involvement and funding of fraudster PI's Metodo 3 and Correia but then the politics of that would have caused further damage to anglo relationships already severely strained.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 21, 2015, 11:29:32 PM
The McCanns are extremely lucky not to have been pursued by the Portuguese State over their involvement and funding of fraudster PI's Metodo 3 and Correia but then the politics of that would have caused further damage to anglo relationships already severely strained.

The McCanns were not in Portugal when they hired Metado3, therefore it was none of the Portuguese State's business.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on June 21, 2015, 11:45:25 PM
The McCanns are extremely lucky not to have been pursued by the Portuguese State over their involvement and funding of fraudster PI's Metodo 3 and Correia but then the politics of that would have caused further damage to anglo relationships already severely strained.
Where have you got that The Mccanns hired Marcos Aragao Correia from?

Cite please.   I am not interested in third party statements BTW.  I want something directly proving what you say ...

Because I think you are wrong.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 22, 2015, 12:03:05 AM
If I recall correctly, he actually said that he knew where Madeleine was.

Am I right in saying that to know that he has to know the abductor ?

What? You mean like Metodo 3 saying they knew who the abductor  was, where they were
and how they did it?
Funny they never told anyone or caught him
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 22, 2015, 12:04:40 AM
Where have you got that The Mccanns hired Marcos Aragao Correia from?

Cite please.   I am not interested in third party statements BTW.  I want something directly proving what you say ...

Because I think you are wrong.

Why are they wrong? What is your evidence?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 22, 2015, 12:48:25 AM
Where have you got that The Mccanns hired Marcos Aragao Correia from?

Cite please.   I am not interested in third party statements BTW.  I want something directly proving what you say ...

Because I think you are wrong.

Its no secret that Metodo 3 paid Correia for services rendered and who was paying them?  QED
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 22, 2015, 12:50:12 AM
Why are they wrong? What is your evidence?

Sadie claims to have talked with Correia and he denied everything of course.  @)(++(*

Lawyer John Grade knows what they were up to though!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 22, 2015, 12:52:01 AM
Metodo is asked to find a child then hire correia representing child killers to dig the dirty on amaral who convicted them, wonderful and confusing
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 22, 2015, 01:14:17 AM
Ridiculous, next someone demented will be claiming that someone with their UK and  PT lawyer accidentally visited a national commitee member during the "Great Search Of Lisbon".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 22, 2015, 01:38:04 AM
Ridiculous, next someone demented will be claiming that someone with their UK and  PT lawyer accidentally visited a national commitee member during the "Great Search Of Lisbon".

On what date was Isabel Duarte appointed?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 22, 2015, 01:54:56 AM
On what date was Isabel Duarte appointed?
Not amongst the lawyers photographed during "The Great Search Of Lisbon" so probably afterwards IMO?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 22, 2015, 02:09:21 AM
Not amongst the lawyers photographed during "The Great Search Of Lisbon" so probably afterwards IMO?

Kate first spoke to Isabel on the phone on 28th November 2008, after taking legal advice re GA's parade around Portugal & beyond. Gerry flew to Lisbon 6 weeks later to meet up with her.
Source:- madeleine page 335.

Do you believe stifling GA's political ambitions was on the agenda for that first meeting and also that Gerry had managed to schedule another meeting during the short visit with a top PSD official?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 22, 2015, 02:33:19 AM
Kate first spoke to Isabel on the phone on 28th November 2008, after taking legal advice re GA's parade around Portugal & beyond. Gerry flew to Lisbon 6 weeks later to meet up with her.
Source:- madeleine page 335.

Do you believe stifling GA's political ambitions was on the agenda for that first meeting and also that Gerry had managed to schedule another meeting during the short visit with a top PSD official?
top PSD official
Sorry I was wrong. Checking, I find that Mr Amaral does say that Duarte was present during the Search of Lisbon mid-Jan 2009. I had wrongly thought from photos outside the hotel that only the Brit lawyer S and the PT lawyer A were present. So your addition makes 3 lawyers, not 2 as I wrongly stated. Mitchell confirmed that the kind donators to the FMF fund paid for this search.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 22, 2015, 03:09:28 AM
Someone in this thread hinted indirectly that the individual attacking  Mr Amaral may have "2 million euros" available to pay to fight Mr Amaral's appeal.

This figure seemed outrageous, so I checked, and I found a reference to that exact figure, in an article which had used an ex-media-monitoring-unit employee as a source ....

"The Fund .... had two million euros at some point in time."


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 22, 2015, 11:52:00 AM
Someone in this thread hinted indirectly that the individual attacking  Mr Amaral may have "2 million euros" available to pay to fight Mr Amaral's appeal.

This figure seemed outrageous, so I checked, and I found a reference to that exact figure, in an article which had used an ex-media-monitoring-unit employee as a source ....

"The Fund .... had two million euros at some point in time."

I was hypothetically asking if the PJGA fund had two million Euros in it, would the GBP be quite so happy to donate. I didn't mean the FMF.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 22, 2015, 12:31:26 PM
I was hypothetically asking if the PJGA fund had two million Euros in it, would the GBP be quite so happy to donate. I didn't mean the FMF.

We will never know what is in the coffers of the PJGA fund or where it has been directed ... for the simple reason it is not transparent as apparently it was promised to be ... with no accounts being published with one exception at start up.
It could be  €200 or  €200 million but a fund dependent on contributions from members of the public is amazingly reticent about allowing them to know anything about it.  However if they are content to be cash cows that might have been a matter for them but for the hypocrisy of vituperative interest in the fund set up to enable the search for Madeleine McCann.

Is there any independent information about the progress of Mr Amaral's appeal ... I find the silence about it in the Portuguese press puzzling, if he really is the National hero we are told he is.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 22, 2015, 12:38:15 PM
Where have you got that The Mccanns hired Marcos Aragao Correia from?

Cite please.   I am not interested in third party statements BTW.  I want something directly proving what you say ...

Because I think you are wrong.

 &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 22, 2015, 12:45:00 PM
&%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+

Please try to be a little helpful to the forum, Stephen. If you know Sadie is wrong, please provide the cite.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 22, 2015, 12:46:22 PM
We will never know what is in the coffers of the PJGA fund or where it has been directed ... for the simple reason it is not transparent as apparently it was promised to be ... with no accounts being published with one exception at start up.
It could be  €200 or  €200 million but a fund dependent on contributions from members of the public is amazingly reticent about allowing them to know anything about it.  However if they are content to be cash cows that might have been a matter for them but for the hypocrisy of vituperative interest in the fund set up to enable the search for Madeleine McCann.

Is there any independent information about the progress of Mr Amaral's appeal ... I find the silence about it in the Portuguese press puzzling, if he really is the National hero we are told he is.

No need to give the news in the Portuguese press because when someone states that they are going to appeal that is enough. The press does not require the exact date when the appeal was filed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 22, 2015, 12:53:27 PM
Please try to be a little helpful to the forum, Stephen. If you know Sadie is wrong, please provide the cite.

This has been gone over many times.

It is well known who Correia was employed by.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 22, 2015, 01:01:02 PM
This has been gone over many times.

It is well known who Correia was employed by.

It's not well known to me.
Please provide a cite if you are so familiar with it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 22, 2015, 01:12:56 PM
It's not well known to me.
Please provide a cite if you are so familiar with it.

Do you know how to use Google ?

If you don't I can guide you.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 22, 2015, 01:16:40 PM
Do you know how to use Google ?

If you don't I can guide you.

Stephen - On this forum, if you make a statement of fact it is customary to provide a cite if asked. 

Not tell fellow members to "google it." 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 22, 2015, 01:25:40 PM
No need to give the news in the Portuguese press because when someone states that they are going to appeal that is enough. The press does not require the exact date when the appeal was filed.

What do you think of the flat refusal of the PJGA to provide any breakdown of income and expenses, even to contributors? 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 22, 2015, 01:37:20 PM
Stephen - On this forum, if you make a statement of fact it is customary to provide a cite if asked. 

Not tell fellow members to "google it."

I feel sure JP that you are well aware of who employed Correia.

Now let's start with the mccanns who employed Metardo3, who employed Correia.

This should help anyone who denies this.

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=WHO+EMPLOYED+CORREIA+IN+THE+MCCANN+CASE
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 22, 2015, 01:42:53 PM
I feel sure JP that you are well aware of who employed Correia.

Now let's start with the mccanns who employed Metardo3, who employed Correia.

This should help anyone who denies this.

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=WHO+EMPLOYED+CORREIA+IN+THE+MCCANN+CASE

              &%+((£  ... and in what way does that provide a cite to confirm your claim?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 22, 2015, 01:56:30 PM
              &%+((£  ... and in what way does that provide a cite to confirm your claim?

It doesn't. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 22, 2015, 02:07:54 PM
We will never know what is in the coffers of the PJGA fund or where it has been directed ... for the simple reason it is not transparent as apparently it was promised to be ... with no accounts being published with one exception at start up.
It could be  €200 or  €200 million but a fund dependent on contributions from members of the public is amazingly reticent about allowing them to know anything about it.  However if they are content to be cash cows that might have been a matter for them but for the hypocrisy of vituperative interest in the fund set up to enable the search for Madeleine McCann.

Is there any independent information about the progress of Mr Amaral's appeal ... I find the silence about it in the Portuguese press puzzling, if he really is the National hero we are told he is.
The GFM appeal website does clearly state that the money will be spent on legal expenses in this civil case.
The FMF appeal website ... I can't find the relevant page.  Please FMF supporters can you post it here thanks.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 22, 2015, 02:13:03 PM
It doesn't.

 
Are you two for real ?

Or are you in denial of the truth, like so many other mccann supporters ?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4719.0
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 22, 2015, 02:19:54 PM
On what date was Isabel Duarte appointed?

I don't know that, but I have wondered occasionally if this is true;

 Ms Duarte also said she has made an official complaint to the police about Mr Amaral, alleging that he has abused the legal aid system.
http://truthformadeleine.com/2010/01/day-3-lisbon-portugal-at-the-mccanns-v-amaral-libel-trial/

This was one of the points the judge used to find against Dr Amaral, but does anyone know if the complaint was made and what the outcome was?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 22, 2015, 02:41:07 PM
The GFM appeal website does clearly state that the money will be spent on legal expenses in this civil case.
The FMF appeal website ... I can't find the relevant page.  Please FMF supporters can you post it here thanks.

The accounts for Madeleine's fund are audited and published annually.  The accounts for Mr Amaral's fund are subject to no public scrutiny whatsoever. 

If people are content to accept a mission statement from one ... in my opinion it is beyond hypocrisy for them to demand scrutiny on all aspects from the other.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 22, 2015, 02:42:11 PM
Draft: "Dear Fund Administrator. Does the FMF fund pay legal expenses of the civil court case in Lisbon? I look forward to your reply. Sincerely, Ann Orse". £1.73 to get a straight answer I can't get here ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 22, 2015, 02:46:18 PM
The GFM appeal website does clearly state that the money will be spent on legal expenses in this civil case.
The FMF appeal website ... I can't find the relevant page.  Please FMF supporters can you post it here thanks.

It can say what it likes.  There is no actual information available, even to those who have contributed. 

This is very far from the much vaunted "open and transparent".

It would be interesting to know 

How much has been received in total?

How much has been spent and on what?

How much is left?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 22, 2015, 03:10:42 PM
@jean-pierre
At least the GFM appeal and PJGA clearly state what their object is.
A level of clarity which another would do well to aspire to.
ETA I recently took lessons in the art of debate, and noticed they have another course advertised "How to count up to two and not count up to three instead".


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 22, 2015, 03:20:10 PM
@jean-pierre
At least the GFM appeal and PJGA clearly state what their object is.
A level of clarity which another money-raising site would do well to aspire to.

It can state it's purpose until it's blue in the face.  Until it clarifies the numbers it means absolutely nothing. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 22, 2015, 03:31:17 PM
It can state it's purpose until it's blue in the face.  Until it clarifies the numbers it means absolutely nothing.


Supposing they put some numbers up, would you believe them?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 22, 2015, 03:32:04 PM
It can state it's purpose until it's blue in the face.  Until it clarifies the numbers it means absolutely nothing.
At least they do say upfront: we are paying legal expenses in this civil case.
Show me a site on your side with the same clarity.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 22, 2015, 03:47:11 PM

Supposing they put some numbers up, would you believe them?
Yes. Let's start with income. The GFM appeal continuously displays the exact total donated so far , and states the exact percentages which get deducted. This total is updated every time a donation is recieved. It is completely accurate, backed by the professionalism of a highly regarded international company.

I challenge anyone to show me a website on the opposite side which clearly states total donations and deductions with this complete clarity.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 22, 2015, 03:58:39 PM
Yes. Let's start with income. The GFM appeal continuously displays the exact total donated so far , and states the exact percentages which get deducted. This total is updated every time a donation is recieved. It is completely accurate, backed by the professionalism of a highly regarded international company.

I challenge anyone to show me a website on the opposite side which clearly states total donations and deductions with this complete clarity.

Gofundme state what the deductions are.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 22, 2015, 04:10:33 PM
There are also deductions made by Stripe. I assume that they are additional to the GFM charges?
I believe there is also an additional monthly charge of over £500 if the amount processed is over £20,000.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 22, 2015, 04:25:35 PM
Gofundme state what the deductions are.
IMO PJGA is honest.
If you are implying otherwise, why not show PJGA how it should be done?
Let's have a look at some accounts of a professionally run fund.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 22, 2015, 04:27:09 PM
IMO PJGA is honest.
If you are implying otherwise, why not show PJGA how it should be done?
Let's have a look at some accounts of a professionally run fund.

If we knew who ran PJGA, it would be a start.......
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 22, 2015, 04:32:37 PM
What difference would it make? The fund exists, you disapprove. End of.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 22, 2015, 04:35:26 PM
IMO PJGA is honest.
If you are implying otherwise, why not show PJGA how it should be done?
Let's have a look at some accounts of a professionally run fund.

Good luck with that. As a limited company they comply with legal requirements and that's it. There are no legal requirements relating to the PJGA fund or to the gofundme fund. People have donated to all these funds in good faith and if they are happy why should others ask questions?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 22, 2015, 05:03:44 PM
If we knew who ran PJGA, it would be a start.......
If we knew who the "Fund Administrator" of FMF is it would be a start....

Here is what the site claims:
"An experienced Fund Administrator has been appointed to ensure the highest standards of transparency and accountability"
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 22, 2015, 06:46:15 PM
Amaral's defence seems to be that because the McCanns were not with Madeleine when she was abducted, they should get lower damage payment than that found by the first-instance judge.

How much is needed to present that defence?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 22, 2015, 06:48:50 PM
Good luck with that. As a limited company they comply with legal requirements and that's it. There are no legal requirements relating to the PJGA fund or to the gofundme fund. People have donated to all these funds in good faith and if they are happy why should others ask questions?

I question because many of the donations are based on lies told by amaral...particularly what the dog's alerts prove
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: DCI on June 22, 2015, 06:55:12 PM

Are you two for real ?

Or are you in denial of the truth, like so many other mccann supporters ?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4719.0

So you are saying Marcos Correia went after Amaral before he even became Leonors lawyer, and after Metodo3's contract ended.

He rang the PJ, they were not interested, so he rang the Detective agency.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 22, 2015, 07:05:30 PM
So you are saying Marcos Correia went after Amaral before he even became Leonors lawyer.

He rang the PJ, they were not interested, so he rang the Detective agency.

You need to research Correia.

By the way, where is he now ?

Meanwhile do you support his belief about Madeleine's fate.

I also heard he claims to be a psychic. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: DCI on June 22, 2015, 07:15:58 PM
You need to research Correia.

By the way, where is he now ?

Meanwhile do you support his belief about Madeleine's fate.

I also heard he claims to be a psychic. 8((()*/

I don't need to. Marcos was not Leonors lawyer till August 2008. Metodo's contract ended March 2008.

He's at home!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 22, 2015, 07:18:55 PM
I don't need to. Marcos was not Leonors lawyer till August 2008.
He's at home!

So do you share his beliefs about Madeleine's fate ?

As you say he is at home, do you know him personally ?

Or does he communicate with you on the psychic plane ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 22, 2015, 07:29:40 PM
So do you share his beliefs about Madeleine's fate ?

As you say he is at home, do you know him personally ?

Or does he communicate with you on the psychic plane ?

Astralling what a great idea!..lol

Stephen was is his beliefs about Maddies fate?

Some people are getting worked up into a frenzied about Amaral and his appeal and the gofund me..I wonder why- we have been told FMF is none of our business...change or heart perhaps?   that thread should be bumped just to check for hypocrisy...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 22, 2015, 07:36:02 PM
I don't need to. Marcos was not Leonors lawyer till August 2008. Metodo's contract ended March 2008.

He's at home!
I am interested what date in March did the contract end?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on June 22, 2015, 08:30:20 PM
I don't need to. Marcos was not Leonors lawyer till August 2008. Metodo's contract ended March 2008.

He's at home!
Why dont you get your facts right stephen, rather than put out a stack of disinformation?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 22, 2015, 08:33:09 PM
Why dont you get your facts right stephen, rather than put out a stack of disinformation?

Correia was working for the mccanns, directly or indirectly.


It is you sadie who needs to get your facts straight .

So do you believe in Correia's theory and do you think he is psychic ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 22, 2015, 08:54:01 PM
I question because many of the donations are based on lies told by amaral...particularly what the dog's alerts prove

Amaral has presented his theory of Madeleine's fate, but he can't prove it. The McCanns  have presented their theory and they can't prove it either. It doesn't stop either of them from claiming they're right.

Amaral hasn't asked for donations, others have. The McCann's invite donations on their website and present their theory on there as a fact.

Looks like pots and kettles to me.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 22, 2015, 08:58:25 PM
Amaral has presented his theory of Madeleine's fate, but he can't prove it. The McCanns  have presented their theory and they can't prove it either. It doesn't stop either of them from claiming they're right.

Amaral hasn't asked for donations, others have. The McCann's invite donations on their website and present their theory on there as a fact.

Looks like pots and kettles to me.

 8@??)( My sentiments exactly!... I have been saying that for a long time.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 22, 2015, 09:10:38 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-533083/McCanns-refuse-axe-50-000-month-private-detectives-search-Madeleine.html
13 Mar 2008
The agency's six-month contract ran out last week, but the McCanns' spokesman announced today that their relationship with the private eyes will continue.
Clarence Mitchell, spokesman for the McCanns, confirmed today: "Our relationship with Metodo 3 is continuing"
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 22, 2015, 09:20:20 PM
Amaral has presented his theory of Madeleine's fate, but he can't prove it. The McCanns  have presented their theory and they can't prove it either. It doesn't stop either of them from claiming they're right.

Amaral hasn't asked for donations, others have. The McCann's invite donations on their website and present their theory on there as a fact.

Looks like pots and kettles to me.

You seem to conveniently forget that the McCanns were the people who discovered Madeleine was missing, therefore they are in prime position to know whether or not they concealed a cadaver. Amaral was not there. His claim is based on supposition.
The parents had a legitimate reason to ask for financial assistance to continue the investigation which was too complex for the PJ & its resources. The parents had lost their child. Amaral only lost something he didn't even have when Madeleine went missing.

How many of the scenarios in the AG's final report don't involve  someone other than the McCanns being responsible for Madeleine's disappearance?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 22, 2015, 09:42:54 PM
Amaral has presented his theory of Madeleine's fate, but he can't prove it. The McCanns  have presented their theory and they can't prove it either. It doesn't stop either of them from claiming they're right.

Amaral hasn't asked for donations, others have. The McCann's invite donations on their website and present their theory on there as a fact.

Looks like pots and kettles to me.

Amaral has presented a theory with no factual basis which accuses the McCanns of serious crime.  The McCanns can certainly prove that the Madeleine fund is in apple-pie order, while Amaral accuses that the fund is fraudulent.

Amaral asserts that the Smiths saw Gerry whisking Madeleine past their noses.  Certainly Mr Smith's children never believed that and it's extremely doubtful whether Mr Smith himself (now) believes it either.

Certainly Joao Carlos (who wrote the final PJ report) says that at the time of the Smith sighting, Gerry was in the restaurant.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 22, 2015, 10:15:46 PM
Amaral has presented his theory of Madeleine's fate, but he can't prove it. The McCanns  have presented their theory and they can't prove it either. It doesn't stop either of them from claiming they're right.

Amaral hasn't asked for donations, others have. The McCann's invite donations on their website and present their theory on there as a fact.

Looks like pots and kettles to me.

Indeed, & K McCann is on record speaking to a morning programme stating her function is "income generation" as if they hadn't had enough and not forgetting the hundreds of thousands they paid lawyers, other merchants,  spokesmen, image consultants, the list is endless

PS it wasn't Amaral's  private theory, but one of his whole team ;)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 22, 2015, 10:32:14 PM
Amaral has presented a theory with no factual basis which accuses the McCanns of serious crime.  The McCanns can certainly prove that the Madeleine fund is in apple-pie order, while Amaral accuses that the fund is fraudulent.

Amaral asserts that the Smiths saw Gerry whisking Madeleine past their noses.  Certainly Mr Smith's children never believed that and it's extremely doubtful whether Mr Smith himself (now) believes it either.

Certainly Joao Carlos (who wrote the final PJ report) says that at the time of the Smith sighting, Gerry was in the restaurant.

There is more of a basis for Amaral's theory than there is for the McCann's. The McCanns may be able to prove that their fund is in apple-pie order but they haven't. Mr Smith was 60-80% certain that he saw Gerald McCann. They did say that Gerald McCann was in the restaurant, because they believed that the alarm was raised at 10pm. The witness statements cast doubt upon the exact time, so unless the PJ have evidence other than the witness statements they could have been mistaken.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 22, 2015, 10:47:19 PM
There is more of a basis for Amaral's theory than there is for the McCann's. The McCanns may be able to prove that their fund is in apple-pie order but they haven't. Mr Smith was 60-80% certain that he saw Gerald McCann. They did say that Gerald McCann was in the restaurant, because they believed that the alarm was raised at 10pm. The witness statements cast doubt upon the exact time, so unless the PJ have evidence other than the witness statements they could have been mistaken.

Matt and Russ said they left 9:25 not 9:30. And Gerry said he checked at 9:15 on his timeline. That's not 30 minute checks. They had all finished their dinner by the time Russell received his steak. He was the only one eating when Kate raised the alarm. Russ said he got back to the table at 9:45 not 9:55 as on the timeline and Matt is missing from that one. What a shambles so you have to investigate it.

(http://www.thoseconspiracyguys.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2578a-Stickerbook1.jpg)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 22, 2015, 11:41:54 PM
There  is never going to be an accurate timeline....if people quote various times in different statements, both those directly involved and onlookers..if Portugal had cctv on every corner, oh, maybe this crime could have been solved in weeks
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 23, 2015, 12:44:56 AM
"38. No Director shall be regarded as having a conflict of interest solely because he or she is also eligible to receive the support of the Foundation."

Is this a standard clause for all not-for-profit limited companies, or a clause added only by FMF?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 23, 2015, 01:25:46 AM
"38. No Director shall be regarded as having a conflict of interest solely because he or she is also eligible to receive the support of the Foundation."

Is this a standard clause for all not-for-profit limited companies, or a clause added only by FMF?

Sounds like a clause invented (ie not a standard charity clause) to replace the "financial support" missing clause
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 23, 2015, 01:31:46 AM
"38. No Director shall be regarded as having a conflict of interest solely because he or she is also eligible to receive the support of the Foundation."

Is this a standard clause for all not-for-profit limited companies, or a clause added only by FMF?

All companies have to identify areas where there may be conflicts of interest. Below is the best explanation I can find and I would guess that the wording in the clause pertained mainly to the interests of Smethurst, Corner & Kennedy.

http://www.blueavocado.org/node/545
"Conflict of interest" or "benefit from interest"?

In practice, what makes something a conflict of interest can also end up being a benefit from interest, or a good arrangement for the nonprofit. For instance, the board member who owns a building may reduce the rent for the nonprofit. Or the nonprofit may benefit from working with the law firm of a board member, because that board member will ensure that the firm will do excellent work and will charge fairly or even at a discount.

Community organizations are based in their constituencies, and hold themselves accountable to their constituencies. Accordingly, we believe it's important to have parents on preschool boards, social service clients on the boards of providers, and artists on the boards of arts councils. But consider the potential conflicts that can arise: In a nonprofit preschool where many of the board members are also parents, these individuals might feel pulled in two directions about whether the preschool should raise tuition in order to replace the roof. And what about the board member/client who utilizes a service of the agency that isn't used by many other people, and as a result, has a personal stake in the service that the staff is recommending be discontinued?

Such situations are not infrequent in nonprofits. They are important reminders for nonprofit boards to recognize the twin aspects of benefit and detriment that can result from a potential conflict-of-interest situation.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 23, 2015, 01:44:05 AM
Sadie claims to have talked with Correia and he denied everything of course.  @)(++(*

Lawyer John Grade knows what they were up to though!

if course he did, he was a normal and honest human being
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 23, 2015, 01:48:08 AM
The McCanns were not in Portugal when they hired Metado3, therefore it was none of the Portuguese State's business.

The case was still open, and wherever the Mccanns lived at the time, it was illegal to hire PIs, very much so the PJs business, the Mccanns were lucky their illegality was not acted upon dear Misty
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 23, 2015, 01:53:15 AM
Thanks for that information.
Another clause:
"2D.1 The income and property of the Foundation shall be applied solely towards the promotion of its objects"

IMO the word "solely" is important.

The objects are:
"2B.1.1 To secure the safe return to her family of Madeleine McCann who was abducted in Praia da Luz, Portugal on Thursday 3rd May 2007; and
2B.1.2 To procure that Madeleine's abduction is thoroughly investigated and that her abductors, as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them, are identified and brought to Justice."


IMO the legal costs of this prolonged private civil court case are not directly covered by either of those two objects.

Are civil case legal expenses to sue Mr Amaral "shoehorned" into clause 2B.1.2?
Or is some other fund paying?
I am sure it is all above board, but the Good Governance Code asks for clear communications.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 23, 2015, 02:06:10 AM
Not sure why you are bothering Pegasus.
Its all "legal and explainable"
That's why expensive lawyers are employed.
Not far different to govt spin either.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 23, 2015, 02:13:00 AM
Thanks for that information.
Another clause:
"2D.1 The income and property of the Foundation shall be applied solely towards the promotion of its objects"

IMO the word "solely" is important.

The objects are:
"2B.1.1 To secure the safe return to her family of Madeleine McCann who was abducted in Praia da Luz, Portugal on Thursday 3rd May 2007; and
2B.1.2 To procure that Madeleine's abduction is thoroughly investigated and that her abductors, as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them, are identified and brought to Justice."


IMO the legal costs of this prolonged private civil court case are not directly covered by either of those two objects.

Are civil case legal expenses to sue Mr Amaral "shoehorned" into clause 2B.1.2?
Or is some other fund paying?
I am sure it is all above board, but the Good Governance Code asks for clear communications.

IMO clause 2B.1.2 could cover the civil legal expenses, certainly at the time action commenced - but I'm not a lawyer so it's not a definite.
Kennedy bankrolled some of the early private investigative work, so perhaps he is the man behind any separate legal defence fund. As long as the British taxpayers aren't footing the bill, it's not really that important.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 23, 2015, 02:29:25 AM
Not sure why you are bothering Pegasus.
Its all "legal and explainable"
That's why expensive lawyers are employed.
Not far different to govt spin either.
IMO that side is not very powerful or skilled. Yes they have lots of money and top lawyers, but they make mistakes IMO, just one example being IMO their rather unfortunate timing of taking Leics Police to the High Court (if they'd waited a few weeks they would have won). A single mum could run rings around them.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 23, 2015, 02:37:18 AM
IMO that side is not very powerful or skilled. Yes they have lots of money and top lawyers, but they make mistakes IMO, just one example being IMO their rather unfortunate timing of taking Leics Police to the High Court (if they'd waited a few weeks they would have won). A single mum could run rings around them.

I'm sure she could, if she was operating outside their jurisdiction.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 23, 2015, 02:50:53 AM
IMO clause 2B.1.2 could cover the civil legal expenses, certainly at the time action commenced - but I'm not a lawyer so it's not a definite.
Kennedy bankrolled some of the early private investigative work, so perhaps he is the man behind any separate legal defence fund. As long as the British taxpayers aren't footing the bill, it's not really that important.
Yes you could shoehorn almost any expenditure into clause 2B.1.2. by saying oh but it indirectly in the long run might end up helping increase searches.

The fact is that initiating libel cases is not directly and solely searching.
What we (and the Good Governance Code) demand is clarity and straight-talking.
Not clever interpretations of wording by expensive lawyers.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 23, 2015, 03:05:22 AM
I'm sure she could, if she was operating outside their jurisdiction.
I meant a single mum beats all the expensive clever lawyers and accountants on the other side.
Because she manages to state clearly (so that Joe Public can understand) what the money will be solely used for.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 23, 2015, 03:08:31 AM
Yes you could shoehorn almost any expenditure into clause 2B.1.2. by saying oh but it indirectly in the long run might end up helping increase searches.

The fact is that initiating libel cases is not directly and solely searching.
What we (and the Good Governance Code) demand is clarity and straight-talking.
Not clever interpretations of wording by expensive lawyers.

If Madeleine is ever found alive & it is proven she was abducted, do you not believe that Amaral & his book played a part in allowing the offender(s) to escape justice?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 23, 2015, 03:18:06 AM
I meant a single mum beats all the expensive clever lawyers and accountants on the other side.
Because she manages to state clearly (so that Joe Public can understand) what the money will be solely used for.

First of all - she didn't write the script. There isn't even a definition of "legal expenses".
Secondly - the GBP have no clue as to what net amount is being paid into GA's legal defence fund.
Thirdly - you should study Stripe account set-up very carefully.
Finally - I really don't care if people are throwing their money down the drain. What I do care about is that they believe in doing so, they are somehow achieving justice for Madeleine. That is just plain wrong.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 23, 2015, 03:46:32 AM
First of all - she didn't write the script. There isn't even a definition of "legal expenses".
Secondly - the GBP have no clue as to what net amount is being paid into GA's legal defence fund.
Thirdly - you should study Stripe account set-up very carefully.
Finally - I really don't care if people are throwing their money down the drain. What I do care about is that they believe in doing so, they are somehow achieving justice for Madeleine. That is just plain wrong.
Yes she says exactly what the GFM appeal is for.
Yes PJGA do define legal expenses.
Yes the GFM site, and PJGA, both state how much they have recieved.
Yes the payment processing costs at GFM, and at PJGA, are clearly described.

The GFM and PJGA appeals both score 4 out of 4. How does your fund score?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 23, 2015, 06:54:10 AM
First of all - she didn't write the script. There isn't even a definition of "legal expenses".
Secondly - the GBP have no clue as to what net amount is being paid into GA's legal defence fund.
Thirdly - you should study Stripe account set-up very carefully.
Finally - I really don't care if people are throwing their money down the drain. What I do care about is that they believe in doing so, they are somehow achieving justice for Madeleine. That is just plain wrong.

not only wrong...but dishonest
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 23, 2015, 07:39:31 AM
All companies have to identify areas where there may be conflicts of interest. Below is the best explanation I can find and I would guess that the wording in the clause pertained mainly to the interests of Smethurst, Corner & Kennedy.

http://www.blueavocado.org/node/545
"Conflict of interest" or "benefit from interest"?

In practice, what makes something a conflict of interest can also end up being a benefit from interest, or a good arrangement for the nonprofit. For instance, the board member who owns a building may reduce the rent for the nonprofit. Or the nonprofit may benefit from working with the law firm of a board member, because that board member will ensure that the firm will do excellent work and will charge fairly or even at a discount.

Community organizations are based in their constituencies, and hold themselves accountable to their constituencies. Accordingly, we believe it's important to have parents on preschool boards, social service clients on the boards of providers, and artists on the boards of arts councils. But consider the potential conflicts that can arise: In a nonprofit preschool where many of the board members are also parents, these individuals might feel pulled in two directions about whether the preschool should raise tuition in order to replace the roof. And what about the board member/client who utilizes a service of the agency that isn't used by many other people, and as a result, has a personal stake in the service that the staff is recommending be discontinued?

Such situations are not infrequent in nonprofits. They are important reminders for nonprofit boards to recognize the twin aspects of benefit and detriment that can result from a potential conflict-of-interest situation.

No Director shall be regarded as having a conflict of interest solely because he or she is also eligible to receive the support of the Foundation."

As I understand it, that clause refers only to those eligible to receive support from the fund. Those eligible are the family of Madeleine Mccann. Unless there is another conflict of interest he clause allows family members to vote despite the fact that they may be voting on whether or not the fund should offer support to a family member (including financial support, and including themselves). As Corner, Linnet and Smethurst are not family members the clause doesn't refer to them.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 23, 2015, 11:53:28 AM
No Director shall be regarded as having a conflict of interest solely because he or she is also eligible to receive the support of the Foundation."

As I understand it, that clause refers only to those eligible to receive support from the fund. Those eligible are the family of Madeleine Mccann. Unless there is another conflict of interest he clause allows family members to vote despite the fact that they may be voting on whether or not the fund should offer support to a family member (including financial support, and including themselves). As Corner, Linnet and Smethurst are not family members the clause doesn't refer to them.

Jon Corner did Media work for the Foundation. That is a conflict of interest.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 23, 2015, 12:01:04 PM
Yes she says exactly what the GFM appeal is for.
Yes PJGA do define legal expenses.
Yes the GFM site, and PJGA, both state how much they have recieved.
Yes the payment processing costs at GFM, and at PJGA, are clearly described.

The GFM and PJGA appeals both score 4 out of 4. How does your fund score?

1. FMF is nothing to do with me.
2. The fund is registered in the UK at Companies House and is both accounted & audited.
So, 5/5  for FMF

How much was in the PJGA account @ 30/4/2015? Or 30/4/2014?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 23, 2015, 12:52:45 PM
Jon Corner did Media work for the Foundation. That is a conflict of interest.

Not covered by that particular clause though. Maybe he did it as a friend also.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 23, 2015, 01:08:54 PM
Not covered by that particular clause though. Maybe he did it as a friend also.

I disagree. It is a conflict of interest if he was paid by the fund for the promotional video work he did for the Foundation & IMO falls within the clause.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 23, 2015, 01:43:41 PM
1. FMF is nothing to do with me.
2. The fund is registered in the UK at Companies House and is both accounted & audited.
So, 5/5  for GFM.

How much was in the PJGA account @ 30/4/2015? Or 30/4/2014?
Did you mean 5/5 for FMF? It's difficult to see how you could claim that when you are unable to post a screenshot where they actually mention in plain English whether they are paying for this civil case or not?

Also it is clear that there is not a single person on this forum who has any contact at all or is genuinely concerned for FMF - because no-one here passed on to them the useful helpful important suggestion made earlier.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 23, 2015, 02:14:00 PM
Good Governance Code
"open communications, informing people about the organisation and its work "
http://www.governancecode.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Code-of-Governance-Summary.pdf
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 23, 2015, 04:43:49 PM
I disagree. It is a conflict of interest if he was paid by the fund for the promotional video work he did for the Foundation & IMO falls within the clause.

He isn't a member of Madeleine McCanns family. The only people supported by the fund are her family. How can he be covered by that clause?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 23, 2015, 06:16:10 PM
Still looking for a straight answer - who pays the lawyers opposing Mr Amaral's appeal ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 23, 2015, 06:36:49 PM
He isn't a member of Madeleine McCanns family. The only people supported by the fund are her family. How can he be covered by that clause?


Quote

 

"38. No Director shall be regarded as having a conflict of interest solely because he or she is also eligible to receive the support of the Foundation."

In what way would Kate & Gerry have a conflict of interest with the Foundation? What outside interest do that have which is in direct opposition to the purpose of the fund or by which means they could gain benefit?
Corner, on the other hand, was able to use the Foundation for the benefit of his Media company - but if work was done at a preferential rate it was also to the benefit of the Foundation.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 23, 2015, 06:39:41 PM
Still looking for a straight answer - who pays the lawyers opposing Mr Amaral's appeal ?

You first! Show us that GA's Legal Defence Fund is more transparent than the FMF.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 23, 2015, 07:45:14 PM
You first! Show us that GA's Legal Defence Fund is more transparent than the FMF.
This thread is about an appeal in a civil court case.
Only funds that pay for legal costs in this civil case are relevant here.

How did you find out FMF pays for this civil case? It doesn't say so anywhere on their website.

If you insist they do pay, then we can compare the initial cost of their website, with the total gross proceeds of the GFM appeal so far.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 23, 2015, 08:02:32 PM
This thread is about an appeal in a civil court case.
Only funds that pay for legal costs in this civil case are relevant here.

How did you find out FMF pays for this civil case? It doesn't say so anywhere on their website.

If you insist they do pay, then we can compare the initial cost of their website, with the total gross proceeds of the GFM appeal so far.

Not a level playing field, Pegasus.
We know what's gone in & out of the FMF since its inception, through Companies House records. We also know who the Directors have been.
Lay the matching cards, then we can compare.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 23, 2015, 08:04:05 PM
Not a level playing field, Pegasus.
We know what's gone in & out of the FMF since its inception, through Companies House records. We also know who the Directors have been.
Lay the matching cards, then we can compare.

Only in the most general of terms - no details regarding expenditure breakdown.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 23, 2015, 08:21:34 PM
Only in the most general of terms - no details regarding expenditure breakdown.

I'll accept annual "general terms of income/expenditure breakdown" + list of PJGA directors/administrators.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 23, 2015, 08:25:04 PM
I'll accept annual "general terms of income/expenditure breakdown" + list of PJGA directors/administrators.

Why are you so worried about such a small amount of money raised for a single clear purpose. Where do you suppose the money is going? I've asked you his before. Clear purpose versus fluid one, some thousands versus millions. Get some perspective.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on June 23, 2015, 08:47:22 PM
Why are you so worried about such a small amount of money raised for a single clear purpose. Where do you suppose the money is going? I've asked you his before. Clear purpose versus fluid one, some thousands versus millions. Get some perspective.

£100 or £100,000, there should be transparency.

Dont you agree mercury
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 23, 2015, 08:53:51 PM
£100 or £100,000, there should be transparency.

Dont you agree mercury

Yes, but some have got it all topsy turvey, haven't they? There is  not a lot of transparency in the Madeleine Fund. there isn't much to be transparent about in the Mr Amaral fund.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on June 23, 2015, 09:08:47 PM
Yes, but some have got it all topsy turvey, haven't they? There is  not a lot of transparency in the Madeleine Fund. there isn't much to be transparent about in the Mr Amaral fund.
I am no accountant. 
However I understand that the Find Madeleine Fund is Officially audited at the correct times.

I cant see much wrong with that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 23, 2015, 09:10:38 PM
I am no accountant. 
However I understand that the Find Madeleine Fund is Officially audited at the correct times.

I cant see much wrong with that.

that means diddly squat Sadie.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 23, 2015, 09:26:33 PM
that means diddly squat Sadie.

Have you ever witnessed an auditor at work, Mercury? It is during those more thorough examinations of company accounts that fraudsters often get found out.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2015, 09:33:06 PM
I am no accountant. 
However I understand that the Find Madeleine Fund is Officially audited at the correct times.

I cant see much wrong with that.

Now what was promised sadie.

Have you ever used Company Check and it's latest version ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 23, 2015, 09:40:00 PM
Have you ever witnessed an auditor at work, Mercury? It is during those more thorough examinations of company accounts that fraudsters often get found out.

IF they are looking and even if they are the legalese will confound them....now we don't have these "problems" with Amaral's fund
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 23, 2015, 09:45:55 PM
IF they are looking and even if they are the legalese will confound them....now we don't have these "problems" with Amaral's fund

In that case, there should be no problems providing the relevant data - should there?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 23, 2015, 09:50:29 PM
In that case, there should be no problems providing the relevant data - should there?

Why do you want it? it's 32k pounds, why do you just BELIEVE the Mccanns millions have all been spent correctly but don't believe a fund that hasn't actually spent a penny yet lol, you're funny
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 23, 2015, 09:52:00 PM
Why do you want it? it's 32k pounds, why do you just BELIEVE the Mccanns millions have all been spent correctly but don't believe a fund that hasn't actually spent a penny yet lol, you're funny

                              How do you know what it has or hasn't been spent?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2015, 09:52:57 PM
Why do you want it? it's 32k pounds, why do you just BELIEVE the Mccanns millions have all been spent correctly but don't believe a fund that hasn't actually spent a penny yet lol, you're funny

Don't forget the first class travel and 5* hotels.

After all, only the best is good enough.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on June 23, 2015, 10:01:52 PM
Don't forget the first class travel and 5* hotels.

After all, only the best is good enough.
I doubt they have travelled first class unless sponsored by a benefactor.  Possibly Business Class and that is the level that you would expect many people of their position to fly.

Five star hotels?  Well why not?

If chosen carefully, out of town or out of season, 5 stars can be very little more than 3 and 4 stars
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 23, 2015, 10:04:15 PM
I doubt they have travelled first class unless sponsored by a benefactor.  Possibly Business Class and that is the level that you would expect many people of their position to fly.

Five star hotels?  Well why not?

If chosen carefully, out of town or out of season, 5 stars can be very little more than 3 and 4 stars

People of their position ???

From funds which other people have donated.

Why didn't they pay from their actual work ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 23, 2015, 10:05:52 PM
                              How do you know what it has or hasn't been spent?

Since it is a fund for an appeal and lawyers expenses,no alarm bells ring as the appeal has only just happened

Brietta you are in serious danger of becoming a hypocrite...now you wouldn't want that would you

Any joy in proving Eddie was running around a kitchen eating a kebab? Yet!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 23, 2015, 10:09:10 PM
Is there anything at all about whether or not Mr Amaral's appeal is going forward?  One would have thought there would be something about it in the Portuguese press.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 23, 2015, 10:12:54 PM
Is there anything at all about whether or not Mr Amaral's appeal is going forward?  One would have thought there would be something about it in the Portuguese press.

it's none of

your business

 @)(++(*

same way the million dollar Madeleine Fund with questionable stats is no ones business

Night Brie  :)



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 23, 2015, 10:13:34 PM
FMF

Since the Fund began to 31 March 2013;

Income is close to £4 million and expenditure £3.5 million. £44,185 has been paid in audit fees and £25,681 for corporation tax. The company had a refund of corporation tax relating to 2012/2013 due to the loss for the year.

The Director's Report for 2012-2013 says;

'The Fund has covered expenses for witnesses giving evidence in a libel trial in Lisbon against Goncalo Amaral (former coordinator of the Portuguese investigator to find Madeleine). Mr Amaral published a book in 2008 and produced a documentary and DVD in 2009 which claimed Madeleine was dead and that her parents faked an abduction and concealed her body. This has caused vast damage to the search for Madeleine in Portugal (where it is most likely that information relating to Madeleine’s abduction and whereabouts will come from.) The Board felt that an attempt to halt this damage was vital in order to further the search for Madeleine hence taking this course of action.'

Chairman's Statement 2008;

provided finance for a team of investigators to lead a private search for Madeleine

• financed the translation of the full set of files released by the Portuguese police, enabling our team of investigators to follow up all potential leads

paid for legal representation for Kate, Gerry, Sean and Amelie in Portugal, enabling them obtain an injunction banning Mr Amaral [sic] from repeating his fabricated claims about Madeleine's abduction
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 23, 2015, 10:24:03 PM
Since it is a fund for an appeal and lawyers expenses,no alarm bells ring as the appeal has only just happened

Brietta you are in serious danger of becoming a hypocrite...now you wouldn't want that would you

Any joy in proving Eddie was running around a kitchen eating a kebab? Yet!

If you are not prepared to accept Martin Grimes word for it ... entirely your concern. 

If it amuses you to think I give a tinker's curse about your opinion of me ... think on. 

To say you bring a certain je ne sais quoi to the forum ~ is indisputable ... and I have never really expected any change in the habits of years in that there would ever be any transparency (as promised) in the PJ GA Fund.

Just another example of double standards so nothing new there.

So what is the latest on the appeal then ... does the Portuguese press even care?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 23, 2015, 10:29:21 PM
If you are not prepared to accept Martin Grimes word for it ... entirely your concern. 

If it amuses you to think I give a tinker's curse about your opinion of me ... think on. 

To say you bring a certain je ne sais quoi to the forum ~ is indisputable ... and I have never really expected any change in the habits of years in that there would ever be any transparency (as promised) in the PJ GA Fund.

Just another example of double standards so nothing new there.

So what is the latest on the appeal then ... does the Portuguese press even care?

Martin Grimes word for what? You're seriously growing closer to being labelled as an utter liar...99 % of your post is laughable btw
As for your comments on my position in this forum, well, Brietta, you don't have monopoly,  the upper hand or the moral high ground, not by a long shot, so get a grip luv, hey? Shouldnt you be using all your energies in "Finding Madeleine"?


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 23, 2015, 10:34:46 PM
Does anyone have a link to Eddie running around anyone's kitchen with a kebab in his mouth? Thanks in advance,
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 23, 2015, 10:45:18 PM
I doubt they have travelled first class unless sponsored by a benefactor.  Possibly Business Class and that is the level that you would expect many people of their position to fly.

Five star hotels?  Well why not?

If chosen carefully, out of town or out of season, 5 stars can be very little more than 3 and 4 stars
A free private jet for 3 was provided by a kind man for the search of the Holy See.
A free private jet for 3 was provided by a kind lady for the searches of Berlin and Amsterdam.
Free premium flights for 2 (KM didn't go) were provided by a different kind man to enable the search of Washington DC.
O W Networks paid for premium flights for 3 to search Harpo Studios in Chicago.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on June 23, 2015, 11:07:14 PM
Martin Grimes word for what? You're seriously growing closer to being labelled as an utter liar...99 % of your post is laughable btw
As for your comments on my position in this forum, well, Brietta, you don't have monopoly,  the upper hand or the moral high ground, not by a long shot, so get a grip luv, hey? Shouldnt you be using all your energies in "Finding Madeleine"?
Mercury

Do not abuse Brietta.

Brietta has complete integrity, she thinks deeply and clearly and writes very well.  If you cannot follow her, that is your failing.  Most other people have no problems.

I repeat.  Brietta is beyond reproach ... do NOT abuse her.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 23, 2015, 11:13:48 PM
Mercury

Do not abuse Brietta.

Brietta has complete integrity, she thinks deeply and clearly and writes very well.  If you cannot follow her, that is your failing.  Most other people have no problems.

I repeat.  Brietta is beyond reproach ... do NOT abuse her.

Dear Sadie, please don't preach pontificate advise  or dictate to me it is quite offensive at best, thanks
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on June 23, 2015, 11:22:15 PM
Dear Sadie, please don't preach pontificate advise  or dictate to me it is quite offensive at best, thanks
Dear mercury, please do not keep making up lies about Brietta.  It is totally offensive and disingeniuos.  Time you stopped..  Thanks
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 23, 2015, 11:46:58 PM
FMF

Since the Fund began to 31 March 2013;

Income is close to £4 million and expenditure £3.5 million. £44,185 has been paid in audit fees and £25,681 for corporation tax. The company had a refund of corporation tax relating to 2012/2013 due to the loss for the year.

The Director's Report for 2012-2013 says;

'The Fund has covered expenses for witnesses giving evidence in a libel trial in Lisbon against Goncalo Amaral (former coordinator of the Portuguese investigator to find Madeleine). Mr Amaral published a book in 2008 and produced a documentary and DVD in 2009 which claimed Madeleine was dead and that her parents faked an abduction and concealed her body. This has caused vast damage to the search for Madeleine in Portugal (where it is most likely that information relating to Madeleine’s abduction and whereabouts will come from.) The Board felt that an attempt to halt this damage was vital in order to further the search for Madeleine hence taking this course of action.'

Chairman's Statement 2008;

provided finance for a team of investigators to lead a private search for Madeleine

• financed the translation of the full set of files released by the Portuguese police, enabling our team of investigators to follow up all potential leads

paid for legal representation for Kate, Gerry, Sean and Amelie in Portugal, enabling them obtain an injunction banning Mr Amaral [sic] from repeating his fabricated claims about Madeleine's abduction
Thankyou G-Unit. So FMF are paying the legal expenses for this civil court case.

BTW did I see a figure of about 3.7 thousand pounds for a website?
(edited to correct decimal place)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 24, 2015, 12:05:40 AM
36 k for a website, correct

Totally ludicrous though

Sorry 37k

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1131284/Where-2m-gave-Madeleine-McCann-gone.html
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 24, 2015, 12:14:41 AM
Sorry mercury I got the decimal place wrong, it should be about 3700 pounds, isn't it?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 24, 2015, 12:17:12 AM
Sorry mercury I got the decimal place wrong, it should be about 3700 pounds, isn't it?

37 000


 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 24, 2015, 12:19:23 AM
Thankyou G-Unit. So FMF are paying the legal expenses for this civil court case.

BTW did I see a figure of about 3.7 thousand pounds for a website?
(edited to correct decimal place)

So, totally transparent then.  8)--))
Let's have Amaral's posted now, so we can make comparisons.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 24, 2015, 12:22:59 AM
http://www.findmadeleine.com/about_the_campaign/index.html
Objects of FMF as advertised on their website yesterday.
Have a look and verify it for yourself.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 24, 2015, 12:25:04 AM
37 000


 @)(++(*
Do you have a source for that?
If you are right that would be more than Leanne has raised in total.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 24, 2015, 12:33:54 AM
Do you have a source for that?
If you are right that would be more than Leanne has raised in total.

I already posted the daily mail article, it's in the accounts too, see accounts of the Mccanns in the top of his forum

Yes I know 37k for a website is monstrous 30 k for a defence fund is ok and probably under
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 24, 2015, 12:37:22 AM
So, totally transparent then.  8)--))
Let's have Amaral's posted now, so we can make comparisons.
@misty There were no costs involved in setting up the GFM appeal.
And IMO the costs of setting up and running the PJGA site are about 100 euros a year.
They are efficient with very low costs.
@mercury Sorry you are right its 37000 pounds not 3700
ETA Is that for just 11 months?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 24, 2015, 12:40:35 AM
No problem Pegasus apart from the problem of any website costing 37 k
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 24, 2015, 12:50:18 AM
@misty There were no costs involved in setting up the GFM appeal.
And IMO the costs of setting up and running the PJGA site are about 100 euros a year.
They are efficient with very low costs.
@mercury Sorry you are right its 37000 pounds not 3700
ETA Is that for just 11 months?

Without wishing to sound rude, I'm not interested in opinions, I'm interested in facts.
Amaral has had "global support" for 5 years. Where has all the money gone?
I'd really like to know how much CdM contributed to his fund.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 24, 2015, 01:01:02 AM
Without wishing to sound rude, I'm not interested in opinions, I'm interested in facts.
Amaral has had "global support" for 5 years. Where has all the money gone?
I'd really like to know how much CdM contributed to his fund.
The cost of setting up the GFM appeal was zero - that is not opinion.
The 37000 pounds website cost (up to March 2008) is not opinion.

Do you have a link for CdM contribution please?
Also do you know if there was any payment for the Chicago show?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 24, 2015, 01:11:12 AM
Without wishing to sound rude, I'm not interested in opinions, I'm interested in facts.
Amaral has had "global support" for 5 years. Where has all the money gone?
I'd really like to know how much CdM contributed to his fund.

Global support for five years! 

Not financial, whereas the Mccans have had financial support in the millions over 7 years and still hide their accounts


you are on a hiding to nothing


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 24, 2015, 01:35:12 AM
The cost of setting up the GFM appeal was zero - that is not opinion.
The 37000 pounds website cost (up to March 2008) is not opinion.

Do you have a link for CdM contribution please?
Also do you know if there was any payment for the Chicago show?

The GFM was set up because the Friends of Amaral said he is skint. Is that the truth?
How much is in the BPI account now? Where are the accounts showing where all the contributions have gone (inflated costs or other)?
I have no links to any CdM contribution - but they did have more than a vested interest in this case.
I also have no details of any payments made by the FMF.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 24, 2015, 04:17:22 AM
The GFM was set up because the Friends of Amaral said he is skint. Is that the truth?
How much is in the BPI account now? Where are the accounts showing where all the contributions have gone (inflated costs or other)?
I have no links to any CdM contribution - but they did have more than a vested interest in this case.
I also have no details of any payments made by the FMF.
You can read the reason PJGA was set up, on their website.
The PJGA (and Leanne's appeal) have no inflated costs. They've never used PR companies.They've never sent a PR person on trips to Rome and Chicago and Berlin and Amsterdam and Washington. They've never paid 37K for website expenses in less than a year. They have never meddled in foreign local politics. They've never taken Leicestershire Police to the High Court. They are shiny kettles.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 24, 2015, 06:09:10 AM

Any posts containing abuse or insults will be deleted entirely.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 24, 2015, 08:51:36 AM
You can read the reason PJGA was set up, on their website.
The PJGA (and Leanne's appeal) have no inflated costs. They've never used PR companies.They've never sent a PR person on trips to Rome and Chicago and Berlin and Amsterdam and Washington. They've never paid 37K for website expenses in less than a year. They have never meddled in foreign local politics. They've never taken Leicestershire Police to the High Court. They are shiny kettles.

The find madeline fund has a primary aim of helping the McCanns to find their abducted child.  The PJGA is simply to pay amarals legal costs.  Don't forget he fired the opening shot in this battle. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 24, 2015, 09:00:48 AM
'The find madeline fund has a primary aim of helping the McCanns to find their abducted child'

That is one view, it isn't the only one.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 24, 2015, 09:04:57 AM
'The find madeline fund has a primary aim of helping the McCanns to find their abducted child'

That is one view, it isn't the only one.

I do t think the mem and arts are required to take your views into account.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 24, 2015, 09:06:43 AM
I do t think the mem and arts are required to take your views into account.  Sorry.

I'm not bothered.

The point being that the fund may have been set up for another reason.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 24, 2015, 09:40:47 AM
I'm not bothered.

The point being that the fund may have been set up for another reason.

Madeleine's fund?? ... or Mr Amaral's fund??

Madeleines's fund accounts are audited and published ... Mr Amaral's fund accounts are not audited and published ... so which one are you questioning?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 24, 2015, 01:06:08 PM
Madeleine's fund?? ... or Mr Amaral's fund??

Madeleines's fund accounts are audited and published ... Mr Amaral's fund accounts are not audited and published ... so which one are you questioning?

What funds does Amaral have exactly ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 24, 2015, 01:22:25 PM
As we haven't heard that GCHQ, the CIA, former KGB and the North Korean authorities have blocked this appeal, it may be reasonable to assume that it has been accepted.

Now what?

The respondents have an equal amount of time to rebut the points raised.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 24, 2015, 01:27:53 PM
What funds does Amaral have exactly ?

                       

                 That is the question  &%+((£  do you have information on  the PJGA accounts?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 24, 2015, 01:28:45 PM
                       

                 That is the question  &%+((£  do you have information on  the PJGA accounts?

Nope.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 24, 2015, 01:41:05 PM
Nope.

It was actually a rhetorical question  8)-))) for something which promised transparency it remains remarkably opaque.

Quite frankly I don't see the problem in allowing a fund reliant on public subscription giving subscribers an indication of when and how their money is being spent, particularly since it was stated it was going to be open and transparent.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 24, 2015, 01:42:40 PM
It was actually a rhetorical question  8)-))) for something which promised transparency it remains remarkably opaque.

Quite frankly I don't see the problem in allowing a fund reliant on public subscription giving subscribers an indication of when and how their money is being spent, particularly since it was stated it was going to be open and transparent.

The mccanns accounts are not transparent.

And I thought Amarals assets are seized.

So how exactly can you obtain info on those ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 24, 2015, 03:14:05 PM
Website costs of LB's appeal = 5% of online donations. That's twice as efficient as 10%.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 24, 2015, 07:13:10 PM
It was actually a rhetorical question  8)-))) for something which promised transparency it remains remarkably opaque.

Quite frankly I don't see the problem in allowing a fund reliant on public subscription giving subscribers an indication of when and how their money is being spent, particularly since it was stated it was going to be open and transparent.

It's unclear how much money will be needed for a defence that seems to consist of the contention that the McCanns should get less than the sum they have been awarded because they weren't with Madeleine when she was abducted .....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 24, 2015, 07:33:35 PM
It's unclear how much money will be needed for a defence that seems to consist of the contention that the McCanns should get less than the sum they have been awarded because they weren't with Madeleine when she was abducted .....
The appeal is against the whole thing not just the amount.
I saw an early estimate of 40000 pounds.
BTW I wonder if Mr Amaral's side has the ACC statement?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 24, 2015, 07:39:20 PM
It's unclear how much money will be needed for a defence that seems to consist of the contention that the McCanns should get less than the sum they have been awarded because they weren't with Madeleine when she was abducted .....

Dear oh dear.

When was it proved she was abducted ferryman ?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 24, 2015, 08:27:14 PM
I predict the GoFundMe appeal will reach the magic £40,000 within two weeks.
Or overnight (if a person whose money was used to fund the legal and other attacks against Amaral decides it's time to level the playing field).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 24, 2015, 09:41:37 PM
I predict the GoFundMe appeal will reach the magic £40,000 within two weeks.
Or overnight (if a person whose money was used to fund the legal and other attacks against Amaral decides it's time to level the playing field).

why do you think amaral has almost zero support in Portugal
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 24, 2015, 09:42:49 PM
why do you think amaral has almost zero support in Portugal

How would you know how much support he has there ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 24, 2015, 09:44:12 PM
Oh by the way davel,  how popular are the McCanns in Portugal ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 24, 2015, 09:49:05 PM
How would you know how much support he has there ?

don't you read the Portuguese papers online
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 24, 2015, 09:52:54 PM
I predict the GoFundMe appeal will reach the magic £40,000 within two weeks.
Or overnight (if a person whose money was used to fund the legal and other attacks against Amaral decides it's time to level the playing field).

they need to keep pushing the "Justice for Maddie" angle then you could be right
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 24, 2015, 10:01:23 PM
don't you read the Portuguese papers online

Nope.

I do have other things to do with my time.

How about you ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 24, 2015, 10:48:10 PM
they need to keep pushing the "Justice for Maddie" angle then you could be right
"PJGA was founded as a quest for justice"  http://www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA

I think the billionaires whose £100000s finance this civil case against Mr Amaral, and the ordinary folk like window-cleaners, cheap record dealers and market traders sending their fivers to Leanne's appeal, all want justice.
One group is simply better at reading a man's integrity than the other.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 24, 2015, 11:08:09 PM
"PJGA was founded as a quest for justice"  http://www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA

I think the billionaires whose £100000s finance this civil case against Mr Amaral, and the ordinary folk like window-cleaners, cheap record dealers and market traders sending their fivers to Leanne's appeal, all want justice.
One group is simply better at reading a man's integrity than the other.
Why are the ordinary folk of Portugal not so convinced of Amaral's integrity and desperate need for financial assistance?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 24, 2015, 11:19:54 PM
Why are the ordinary folk of Portugal not so convinced of Amaral's integrity and desperate need for financial assistance?

1. Do we have evidence they are not ? Not contributing to his fund is only evidence they are not contributing to it rather than the reason why they are not contributing to it.
2. What's the Portuguese for "all coppers are 'nanas"? That could be the reason.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 24, 2015, 11:21:10 PM
Why are the ordinary folk of Portugal not so convinced of Amaral's integrity and desperate need for financial assistance?
Because the GFM page has much better web visibility than the PJGA site.
But the GFM page is currently has only english text.

Maybe if a short paragraph in portugese language is added on the GFM page,
and a little free PR (emails the link to a few portugese papers) ?
What do you think?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on June 24, 2015, 11:30:40 PM
"PJGA was founded as a quest for justice"  http://www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA

I think the billionaires whose £100000s finance this civil case against Mr Amaral, and the ordinary folk like window-cleaners, cheap record dealers and market traders sending their fivers to Leanne's appeal, all want justice.
One group is simply better at reading a man's integrity than the other.

The two groups want different forms of justice, Pegasus.
Those who support the FMF want Madeleine found/any criminals brought to justice.
Those who support PJGA want a man's right to unrestricted freedom of speech restored in addition to his right to profit from it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 24, 2015, 11:35:30 PM
Because the GFM page has much better web visibility than the PJGA site.
But the GFM page is currently has only english text.

Maybe if a short paragraph in portugese language is added on the GFM page,
and a little free PR (emails the link to a few portugese papers) ?
What do you think?
Hey Leanne, if you're reading this, why not give it a go?  I hear Amaral is a national hero in Portugal but the Portuguese haven't a clue about how to donate to their hero because they can't read what it says on your page!  Also, it seems the Portuguese press know nothing of your endeavours either so why not set the PR wheels in motion and get Joana on the case (I'm somewhat surprised she hasn't already though tbh).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 24, 2015, 11:40:21 PM
1. Do we have evidence they are not ? Not contributing to his fund is only evidence they are not contributing to it rather than the reason why they are not contributing to it.
2. What's the Portuguese for "all coppers are 'nanas"? That could be the reason.
We've been informed that Amaral is very popular in Portugal.  We also know the PT press reported his recent court failure against the McCanns and the unprecedented costs he has to pay.  You'd have thought that there would be at least as many Portuguese nationals eager to fund their hero's fight back as there are gullible British fools currently parting with their hard earned on a repeat basis, no?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on June 24, 2015, 11:59:01 PM
The two groups want different forms of justice, Pegasus.
Those who support the FMF want Madeleine found/any criminals brought to justice.
Those who support PJGA want a man's right to unrestricted freedom of speech restored in addition to his right to profit from it.

Either you don't understand or you're being disingenuous. The main reason is to support the underdog against the assault he has suffered. A lot of people think it is UNJUST that monies contributed to supposedly search for a child are being used to crucify someone in the sue courts. if you are ok with that, it's your problem.



Still, don't worry too much, he's only had a few thousand pounds, not millions....don't  lose much sleep

FORCA Mr Amaral, ie all strength, you know FORCA? the words many pro McCann  liars tried to say meant f*** the Mccanns? I

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 25, 2015, 02:57:11 AM
Either you don't understand or you're being disingenuous. The main reason is to support the underdog against the assault he has suffered. A lot of people think it is UNJUST that monies contributed to supposedly search for a child are being used to crucify someone in the sue courts. if you are ok with that, it's your problem.


Still, don't worry too much, he's only had a few thousand pounds, not millions....don't  lose much sleep
Yes that's it, he is the underdog, and attempts have been made to destroy him, so I support him.
His theory is not all correct IMO. But he is a man of integrity, a man who talks straight.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 25, 2015, 07:34:01 AM
Yes that's it, he is the underdog, and attempts have been made to destroy him, so I support him.
His theory is not all correct IMO. But he is a man of integrity, a man who talks straight.

he's a convicted criminal
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 25, 2015, 08:05:35 AM
he's a convicted criminal

Now tell us dave what did Metardo3 in connection with Correia, try to do on the mccanns behalf as regards Amaral ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 25, 2015, 08:12:15 AM
Yes that's it, he is the underdog, and attempts have been made to destroy him, so I support him.
His theory is not all correct IMO. But he is a man of integrity, a man who talks straight.

I think people support amaral for different reasons.  Personally I support his right to appeal and to pursue his legal rights. 

To support him simply because he is the 'underdog' makes no sense to me.  Especially as he was the aggressor in this case by writing his book, documentary and interviews.  He pursued the mccanns and then got all hurt when they but back through the Portuguese courts. 

How do you square your protestations that he is a man of integrity with you feeling that he is wrong about the case of a missing child and her parents?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 25, 2015, 09:15:09 AM
We've been informed that Amaral is very popular in Portugal.  We also know the PT press reported his recent court failure against the McCanns and the unprecedented costs he has to pay.  You'd have thought that there would be at least as many Portuguese nationals eager to fund their hero's fight back as there are gullible British fools currently parting with their hard earned on a repeat basis, no?

From the top.
I haven't a clue whether or not he is popular in Portugal; what is the source of that information?
OK so the judges ruling was published in the Portuguese press; fair comment.
Why would one have thought Portuguese Jose Publico will contribute to Sr. Amaral's costs?
How do you know Jose Publico hasn't contributed in Portugal?
Why do you think Sr. Amaral is the hero of Jose Publico? what is the source of that information?
There are gullible fools everywhere.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 25, 2015, 09:19:44 AM
Now tell us dave what did Metardo3 in connection with Correia, try to do on the mccanns behalf as regards Amaral ?

What are you alleging Stephen, and based on what evidence?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 25, 2015, 09:20:48 AM
he's a convicted criminal

are they worse then unconvicted criminals/ like the paedo gang in North England- would you say they are a better class of criminal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 25, 2015, 09:21:00 AM
From the top.
I haven't a clue whether or not he is popular in Portugal; what is the source of that information?
OK so the judges ruling was published in the Portuguese press; fair comment.
Why would one have thought Portuguese Jose Publico will contribute to Sr. Amaral's costs?
How do you know Jose Publico hasn't contributed in Portugal?
Why do you think Sr. Amaral is the hero of Jose Publico? what is the source of that information?
There are gullible fools everywhere.
The source for the information regarding Amaral's popularity are members of this forum and elsewhere in internet land.  Personally, I doubt their claims and they do seem unable to substantiate it.  It is my opinion that if (as these poor deluded souls claim) Amaral is a bit of a national hero it is odd that we are not seeing any evidence of this being the case, such as numerous PT nationals digging deep into their own pockets on a regular basis to support their hero, such as we see in this country. 
I will draw my own conclusions from this absence of evidence of national support, as no doubt shall you - and both conclusions (whilst almost certainly poles apart) shall be equally valid   8((()*/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 25, 2015, 09:32:06 AM
As with other issues, this has been discussed before.


Or are you that blind ?

They wanted Amaral destroyed. 8(0(*

He was certainly not their favourite person once they got wind of his book and other spoutings and they eventually took steps via the civil courts to attempt to stop it. That's recorded fact.

Aside from that, what else is more than unsubstantiated insinuation?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 25, 2015, 09:37:27 AM
He was certainly not their favourite person once they got wind of his book and other spoutings and they eventually took steps via the civil courts to attempt to stop it. That's recorded fact.

Aside from that, what else is more than unsubstantiated insinuation?

On whose instructions did Metardo3  go after Amaral, via Correia ?

Was it the tooth fairy ?

and of course Correia was 'helping' the Cipriano's.

Now pray tell, who was an investigating officer in that case ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 25, 2015, 09:38:44 AM
The source for the information regarding Amaral's popularity are members of this forum and elsewhere in internet land.  Personally, I doubt their claims and they do seem unable to substantiate it.  It is my opinion that if (as these poor deluded souls claim) Amaral is a bit of a national hero it is odd that we are not seeing any evidence of this being the case, such as numerous PT nationals digging deep into their own pockets on a regular basis to support their hero, such as we see in this country. 
I will draw my own conclusions from this absence of evidence of national support, as no doubt shall you - and both conclusions (whilst almost certainly poles apart) shall be equally valid   8((()*/

I stand to be corrected of course but I see no evidence one way or another whether Portuguese nationals are contributing to Sr Amaral's beer 'n' baccy fund. There would appear to be no evidence to suggest that Jose Publico is contributing under his own name to the fund started by Leanne Baulch but that is a different proposition.
My conclusion would be I can't readily see any evidence to support or undermine the proposition. I do rather suspect most of us don't care how he is being funded. It's a bit like golf: how doesn't matter; how many does.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 25, 2015, 09:50:35 AM
On whose instructions did Metardo3  go after Amaral, via Correia ?

Was it the tooth fairy ?

and of course Correia was 'helping' the Cipriano's.

Now pray tell, who was an investigating officer in that case ?

Having failed in his effort to have him committed to an asylum for the insane Mr Amaral took the lawyer to court, for as far as I can see, representing a client in court.

Mr Amaral resoundingly lost the case and had to pay all the court costs ... perhaps lending to some of the financial difficulties he has continually mired himself in.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 25, 2015, 09:57:23 AM
So what do you think of Correia's theory as to the fate of Madeleine ?

He also claims to be a psychic.

Do you believe he is ?

He got involved ion the Cipriano case on the back of this one.


A to B to C.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 25, 2015, 10:11:28 AM
On whose instructions did Metardo3  go after Amaral, via Correia ?

Was it the tooth fairy ?

and of course Correia was 'helping' the Cipriano's.

Now pray tell, who was an investigating officer in that case ?

I haven't found anything to support the notion that Metodo3 had anything to do with Correia's decision to defend Leonor Cipriano at her torture trial.

Why would they? SOME lawyer would have had to have defended her in any case. It may as well have been any Jose Avogado.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 25, 2015, 10:25:45 AM
So what do you think of Correia's theory as to the fate of Madeleine ?

He also claims to be a psychic.

Do you believe he is ?

He got involved ion the Cipriano case on the back of this one.


A to B to C.

That's precisely one of the reasons why I don't believe that the McCanns (even via M3) would have done so.

He was convinced that both children had been murdered - when there is no evidence to support that in either case. Perhaps one or both have been, but there is nothing to substantiate it and the McCanns were firmly committed to the hope that Madeleine might still be alive.

As far as I can make out, he seems to have been a loose cannon. M3 did have contact with him, although he may have been the one to initiate contact, and M3 may have contributed to some expenses re the dam when a child's sock and what later turned out to have been the bones of drowned kittens, and to try to interview João Cipriano in prison. That makes sense in case there had been a child trafficking ring and he had knowledge of it.


ETA: Another point is that Amaral was an arguido on 4 May and charged a month or so later concerning alleged beatings that took place years before the McCanns ever went on holiday. Others were also, although I have no confirmed dates concerning the others.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 25, 2015, 10:32:28 AM
Contrary to what some would have us believe, reportedly M3's contract was not terminated in March 2008. It was extended. ETA Starting a thread, reply there please.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 25, 2015, 10:36:25 AM
Contrary to what some would have us believe, M3's contract was not terminated in March 2008. It was extended.

Extended or their services used on an ad hoc basis?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 25, 2015, 11:02:57 AM
I stand to be corrected of course but I see no evidence one way or another whether Portuguese nationals are contributing to Sr Amaral's beer 'n' baccy fund. There would appear to be no evidence to suggest that Jose Publico is contributing under his own name to the fund started by Leanne Baulch but that is a different proposition.
My conclusion would be I can't readily see any evidence to support or undermine the proposition. I do rather suspect most of us don't care how he is being funded. It's a bit like golf: how doesn't matter; how many does.
Do you feel it is incumbent upon yourself to challenge every point I make, no matter how trivial, frivolous or how little you care what the actual answer is?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 25, 2015, 05:59:26 PM
TOPIC. PLEASE.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 26, 2015, 02:40:23 AM
Is the civil court case the biggest expenditure of FMF this year?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 26, 2015, 12:16:25 PM
Dear oh dear.

When was it proved she was abducted ferryman ?

I would say, at roughly the point that Santos made his plea that proceedings be in camera to protect Madeleine lest Madeleine be alive.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 26, 2015, 02:16:33 PM
I would say, at roughly the point that Santos made his plea that proceedings be in camera to protect Madeleine lest Madeleine be alive.
The civil court case has nothing to do with solving the crime, the judge has made that clear.
The "in camera" ploy highlights the question:
.. Who makes the decision on behalf of an underage ward of court, whether to sue someone in a civil court?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 26, 2015, 03:08:55 PM
lest= just in case
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 26, 2015, 04:15:16 PM
The civil court case has nothing to do with solving the crime, the judge has made that clear.
The "in camera" ploy highlights the question:
.. Who makes the decision on behalf of an underage ward of court, whether to sue someone in a civil court?

You are correct in the first paragraph.

As for the second - the child's parents.  Wardshop does not override parental rights.  As amaral discovered to his (misadvised) cost.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: DCI on June 26, 2015, 04:37:30 PM
I haven't found anything to support the notion that Metodo3 had anything to do with Correia's decision to defend Leonor Cipriano at her torture trial.

Why would they? SOME lawyer would have had to have defended her in any case. It may as well have been any Jose Avogado.

Joao Grade was Leonors lawyer, before Marcos.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 26, 2015, 05:48:50 PM
I haven't found anything to support the notion that Metodo3 had anything to do with Correia's decision to defend Leonor Cipriano at her torture trial.

Why would they? SOME lawyer would have had to have defended her in any case. It may as well have been any Jose Avogado.

You conveniently missed out the bit where Metodo 3 previously tried to get lawyer John Grade to do their dirty work but he refused and went public.  Correia obviously needed the money more and his links with M3 had already been established.

It really doesn't matter which way you try to spin it Carana, anyone who knows anything about this case knows that Kennedy and the Madeleine Fund were paying Metodo 3.  They in turn were funding Correia and everything he got up to.  Only a public inquiry will get to the bottom of these murky dealings.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 26, 2015, 06:25:40 PM
You conveniently missed out the bit where Metodo 3 previously tried to get lawyer John Grade to do their dirty work but he refused and went public.  Correia obviously needed the money more and his links with M3 had already been established.

It really doesn't matter which way you try to spin it Carana, anyone who knows anything about this case knows that Kennedy and the Madeleine Fund were paying Metodo 3.  They in turn were funding Correia and everything he got up to.  Only a public inquiry will get to the bottom of these murky dealings.
What crime do you think has been committed and by whom?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 26, 2015, 06:32:35 PM
You are correct in the first paragraph.

As for the second - the child's parents.  Wardshop does not override parental rights.  As amaral discovered to his (misadvised) cost.
You may be correct that the "in camera" ploy was not the best tactic.
But have the higher paid lawyers on the other side been perfect?
For example the timing of taking Leic Police to court. If the lawyers had delayed by a few weeks isn't it probable they would have won against the Police? (simply by delaying a few weeks until the case was shelved in Portugal).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 26, 2015, 06:39:26 PM
You may be correct that the "in camera" ploy was not the best tactic.
But have the higher paid lawyers on the other side been perfect?
For example the timing of taking Leic Police to court. If the lawyers had delayed by a few weeks isn't it probable they would have won against the Police? (simply by delaying a few weeks until the case was shelved in Portugal).

The court case was simply the end of the process. Leicestershire police were served with the disclosure order very early on, and had been refusing to disclose their evidence for ages. They would never have won that case no matter when they did it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 26, 2015, 06:43:24 PM
What crime do you think has been committed and by whom?

I would say it was an attempt to pervert the course of justice at the very least and could very well include bribery of a public official.  There will be other criminal violations if one digs deep enough and could include conspiracy.

I intend to find out who knew what and more importantly, who was giving Metodo 3 their orders and authorising payments to Correia.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 26, 2015, 06:48:50 PM
I would say it was an attempt to pervert the course of justice at the very least and could very well include bribery of a public official.  There will be other criminal violations if one digs deep enough and could include conspiracy.

So what do you actually have now...nothing
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 26, 2015, 06:53:41 PM
So what do you actually have now...nothing

There is more than enough at the moment to bring criminal conspiracy charges against certain individuals and organisations. Watch this space Dave.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 26, 2015, 07:09:12 PM
I would say it was an attempt to pervert the course of justice at the very least and could very well include bribery of a public official.  There will be other criminal violations if one digs deep enough and could include conspiracy.

I intend to find out who knew what and more importantly, who was giving Metodo 3 their orders and authorising payments to Correia.
How do you intend to do that?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 26, 2015, 07:09:59 PM
There is more than enough at the moment to bring criminal conspiracy charges against certain individuals and organisations. Watch this space Dave.
Would you care to elucidate?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 26, 2015, 07:29:11 PM
Would you care to elucidate?

Nope
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 26, 2015, 07:43:31 PM
There is more than enough at the moment to bring criminal conspiracy charges against certain individuals and organisations. Watch this space Dave.

sorry but you are posting rubbish...criminal conspiracy charges against who?...has it not occurred to you that if there was ANY truth in what you say amaral would have done it
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 26, 2015, 08:19:33 PM
Nope
@)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 26, 2015, 08:20:40 PM
sorry but you are posting rubbish...criminal conspiracy charges against who?...has it not occurred to you that if there was ANY truth in what you say amaral would have done it
Don't worry, Inspector Angelo's on the case.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 26, 2015, 08:25:31 PM
sorry but you are posting rubbish...criminal conspiracy charges against who?...has it not occurred to you that if there was ANY truth in what you say amaral would have done it

Try the connection, and they are linked.

The so called psychic Correia, who said Madeleine's body was at the bottom of a lake.

Metardo3 who were essentially  useless and whose employees had criminal convictions for industrial espionage.

and the mccanns, who employed both.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 27, 2015, 02:51:34 AM
£32,867 and no sign of slowing down (despite being blanked by the cowardly press).
Soon the gofundme should reach £33,333.
That's a third of the way to raising £100,000
Wouldn't it be great if the ordinary British public, fighting for integrity, could raise £100,001 and beat the £100,000 what just one of the multi-millionaires reportedly offered the other side for legal expenses.
That would be better than any balloon race / rugby match, if the GBP with their fivers and tenners can stick their fingers up at and beat the multi-millionaires.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 27, 2015, 08:35:48 AM
sorry but you are posting rubbish...criminal conspiracy charges against who?...has it not occurred to you that if there was ANY truth in what you say amaral would have done it

Amaral was prevented from doing it or hadn't you noticed?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 27, 2015, 08:39:16 AM
£32,867 and no sign of slowing down (despite being blanked by the cowardly press).
Soon the gofundme should reach £33,333.
That's a third of the way to raising £100,000
Wouldn't it be great if the ordinary British public, fighting for integrity, could raise £100,001 and beat the £100,000 what just one of the multi-millionaires reportedly offered the other side for legal expenses.
That would be better than any balloon race / rugby match, if the GBP with their fivers and tenners can stick their fingers up at and beat the multi-millionaires.
I think it's fair to say that the fund IS showing signs of slowing down, but if you want to speed things up why not devote some time and effort to bombarding the UK and Portuguese press with press release about it?  The're sure to bite eventually... 8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 27, 2015, 08:40:18 AM
Incidentally, the Sun were supposedly straining at the leash to interview Leanne once the fund hit target - what happened there...?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 27, 2015, 08:40:24 AM
Amaral was prevented from doing it or hadn't you noticed?
Cite....because he didn't have any evidence no doubt
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Admin on June 27, 2015, 12:29:55 PM
Brits take Maddie cop appeal fund to almost €46,000

(http://i.imgur.com/Cc5v4Ht.jpg?1)

June 26, 2015

(http://portugalresident.com/sites/default/files/styles/node-detail/public/field/image/2013-01-18-rtr2a1lr.jpg?itok=tclCtOTH)

In an amazing outpouring of support, British people donating to an online appeal have raised almost €46,000 to help former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral stand his corner against the parents of Madeleine McCann.

As newspapers have reported throughout the world, Amaral has been slapped with a €600,000 bill for the pain and anguish his book ‘The Truth of the Lie’ caused Madeleine’s parents, Kate and Gerry.

In a poignant interview with Portuguese magazine Nova Gente, Amaral explained how the only thing keeping him alive since the verdict that went against him was his heart.

“My life is gone,” he said.

But he hadn’t bargained on the sheer volume of support, waiting to be rallied to his cause by a 22-year-old single mum from Birmingham, who was only 14 when Madeleine went missing from apartment 5a in the Ocean Club, in Praia da Luz.

In six whirlwind weeks, almost 2,000 people have dug into their pockets, some again and again with tiny amounts, others occasionally with lump sums of £1000 at a time.

As we clocked off for the weekend, the fund was one person short of 2,000, with the amount collected standing at £32,675.

Leanne Baulch, the young woman behind the initiative, was “amazed”.

“I never imagined we would get this far,” she told us.

The money now will all be ploughed into Amaral fighting his appeal, lodged earlier this month, and likely to cost “at least £40,000”, explained Ms Baulch.

The long-running civil court case was lodged against Amaral by the McCanns in 2009 after he wrote his book explaining the theory that Madeleine had not been abducted at all.

natasha.donn@algarveresident.com

http://portugalresident.com/brits-take-maddie-cop-appeal-fund-to-almost-%E2%82%AC46000
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on June 27, 2015, 12:46:40 PM
Brits take Maddie cop appeal fund to almost €46,000

(http://i.imgur.com/Cc5v4Ht.jpg?1)

June 26, 2015

(http://portugalresident.com/sites/default/files/styles/node-detail/public/field/image/2013-01-18-rtr2a1lr.jpg?itok=tclCtOTH)

In an amazing outpouring of support, British people donating to an online appeal have raised almost €46,000 to help former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral stand his corner against the parents of Madeleine McCann.

As newspapers have reported throughout the world, Amaral has been slapped with a €600,000 bill for the pain and anguish his book ‘The Truth of the Lie’ caused Madeleine’s parents, Kate and Gerry.

In a poignant interview with Portuguese magazine Nova Gente, Amaral explained how the only thing keeping him alive since the verdict that went against him was his heart.

“My life is gone,” he said.

But he hadn’t bargained on the sheer volume of support, waiting to be rallied to his cause by a 22-year-old single mum from Birmingham, who was only 14 when Madeleine went missing from apartment 5a in the Ocean Club, in Praia da Luz.

In six whirlwind weeks, almost 2,000 people have dug into their pockets, some again and again with tiny amounts, others occasionally with lump sums of £1000 at a time.

As we clocked off for the weekend, the fund was one person short of 2,000, with the amount collected standing at £32,675.

Leanne Baulch, the young woman behind the initiative, was “amazed”.

“I never imagined we would get this far,” she told us.

The money now will all be ploughed into Amaral fighting his appeal, lodged earlier this month, and likely to cost “at least £40,000”, explained Ms Baulch.

The long-running civil court case was lodged against Amaral by the McCanns in 2009 after he wrote his book explaining the theory that Madeleine had not been abducted at all.

natasha.donn@algarveresident.com

http://portugalresident.com/brits-take-maddie-cop-appeal-fund-to-almost-%E2%82%AC46000


And not a mention of the T word !
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 27, 2015, 12:49:23 PM

And not a mention of the T word !

makes you wonder why he does not have similar support in Portugal...probably because the Portuguese people know that he is a convicted criminal with an unpleasant history. the fund is dishonest in as much as it is being promoted as justice for Maddie....having said that the case has and will be decided according to the law
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 27, 2015, 12:50:31 PM

And not a mention of the T word !

just to add that this paper is very biased against the McCanns so that explains it's gushing tone
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 27, 2015, 12:55:56 PM
just to add that this paper is very biased against the McCanns so that explains it's gushing tone

Makes a change from UK newspapers gushing about the McCanns I suppose.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 27, 2015, 12:58:03 PM
Makes a change from UK newspapers gushing about the McCanns I suppose.

it doesn't quite have the readership of the UK paper's
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 27, 2015, 01:01:07 PM
it doesn't quite have the readership of the UK paper's

So? At least it's free to report the case how it likes. The UK papers, allegedly, are too scared of being sued.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 27, 2015, 01:02:46 PM
So? At least it's free to report the case how it likes. The UK papers, allegedly, are too scared of being sued.
to scared of being sued....you mean they are not able to print lies where as Portuguese papers are
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 27, 2015, 01:10:14 PM
makes you wonder why he does not have similar support in Portugal...probably because the Portuguese people know that he is a convicted criminal with an unpleasant history. the fund is dishonest in as much as it is being promoted as justice for Maddie....having said that the case has and will be decided according to the law

He has one conviction for altering official police records Dave, not exactly up there with career criminals is it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 27, 2015, 01:11:09 PM
to scared of being sued....you mean they are not able to print lies where as Portuguese papers are

You're so trusting. You believe everything and doubt nothing. Our police are wonderful, the Portuguese police aren't. Our newspapers are truthful, Portuguese newspapers aren't. People who have behaved extremely defensively and suspiciously and who were suspected of a crime are obviously innocent because they said so. 'Professional' translators are better than amateurs. The Portguese Judiciary is bad when it overturns a ban on a book, but good when it finds against Amaral.   @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 27, 2015, 01:13:09 PM
just to add that this paper is very biased against the McCanns so that explains it's gushing tone

Of course you would say that, everyone who doesn't lap up their story is biased.  Personally I would call anyone who believes every word they have said as gullible and naive.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 27, 2015, 01:15:23 PM
So? At least it's free to report the case how it likes. The UK papers, allegedly, are too scared of being sued.

Absolutely spot on.  The British press have had their fingers burned and will be holding their powder in reserve for another day.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 27, 2015, 01:15:55 PM
He has one conviction for altering official police records Dave, not exactly up there with career criminals is it?

wasn't he sued by his brother for fraud.......accused of drink driving by his wife...didn't he threaten to kill someone....an ex
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 27, 2015, 01:18:34 PM
You're so trusting. You believe everything and doubt nothing. Our police are wonderful, the Portuguese police aren't. Our newspapers are truthful, Portuguese newspapers aren't. People who have behaved extremely defensively and suspiciously and who were suspected of a crime are obviously innocent because they said so. 'Professional' translators are better than amateurs. The Portguese Judiciary is bad when it overturns a ban on a book, but good when it finds against Amaral.   @)(++(* @)(++(*

not trusting...you don't seem to understand how libel works...the law is there to stop papers telling lies..

My belief in the McCanns innocence is based on a lot more than "because they said so"...and again it seems SY and Redwood believes in their innocence
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 27, 2015, 01:21:25 PM
wasn't he sued by his brother for fraud.......accused of drink driving by his wife...didn't he threaten to kill someone....an ex

Now you're just scraping the barrel.  Amaral's work in fighting organised crime was a credit to him and that is why he rose to the rank of police coordinator so quickly.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on June 27, 2015, 01:24:00 PM
Quote
In six whirlwind weeks, almost 2,000 people have dug into their pockets, some again and again with tiny amounts, others occasionally with lump sums of £1000 at a time.
Unquote

I haven't looked at the site for while.    Are they still promoting the incorrect total of how many people have contributed by classing each donation as being from a different person - when in fact many of the donations are multiple donations being repeatedly made by the same people.

If they haven't corrected that error then ''almost 2,000 people' should read 'almost 2,000 donations' to be true.     The correct number of people who have contributed is obviously far less.

IMO It could be because - in the scheme of things  - the number of people who have contributed is so tiny that the Press haven't taken it up. 

Maybe they will at some point - who knows.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 27, 2015, 02:52:29 PM
Now you're just scraping the barrel.  Amaral's work in fighting organised crime was a credit to him and that is why he rose to the rank of police coordinator so quickly.

What do you mean by so quickly?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 27, 2015, 05:48:34 PM
Quote
In six whirlwind weeks, almost 2,000 people have dug into their pockets, some again and again with tiny amounts, others occasionally with lump sums of £1000 at a time.
Unquote

I haven't looked at the site for while.    Are they still promoting the incorrect total of how many people have contributed by classing each donation as being from a different person - when in fact many of the donations are multiple donations being repeatedly made by the same people.

If they haven't corrected that error then ''almost 2,000 people' should read 'almost 2,000 donations' to be true.     The correct number of people who have contributed is obviously far less.

IMO It could be because - in the scheme of things  - the number of people who have contributed is so tiny that the Press haven't taken it up. 

Maybe they will at some point - who knows.
They won't correct it as it's obviously a pro-Amaral propaganda rag, and the only newspaper in the world that seems remotely interested in the Gonc Fund.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on June 27, 2015, 06:19:35 PM
Only a nit-picker would bothered about such distinctions. The amount of money raised is what is important.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 27, 2015, 07:04:16 PM
Only a nit-picker would bothered about such distinctions. The amount of money raised is what is important.
Yeah, 1000 people, 2000 people what does it matter anyway, it's still a miniscule amount of support in the grand scheme of things, especially when you consider that Amaral is supposedly a national hero in Portugal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on June 28, 2015, 10:06:02 AM
Only a nit-picker would bothered about such distinctions. The amount of money raised is what is important.

So you think that pointing out that a fund which claims to be squeaky clean -  is in reality deceiving the public into thinking far more people are supporting it than actually are  - and then allows this false information to be spread  via the press -  is nitpicking?  Really?

IMO It's obvious that that this disinformation is being allowed to stand because they want the public to believe there are far more supporters than the real total would reveal.    That should tell you something.

And if that's not dishonest I don't know what is.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 28, 2015, 10:18:57 AM
I will be deleting Off Topic Posts.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 28, 2015, 01:28:01 PM
Are the complete transcripts of this civil court case so far available? Or just small parts of it? Has the 2008 High Court UK police statement (written at same time as the disputed book was going to print) been brought up yet at any time in this case?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 29, 2015, 09:01:20 AM
I am bemused that an appeal merely challenging the size of the award was allowed at all.

To be clear, that's all (what!) Amaral's challenge consists of ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 29, 2015, 09:04:06 AM
I am bemused that an appeal merely challenging the size of the award was allowed at all.

To be clear, that's all (what!) Amaral's challenge consists of ....

Just wait ferryman.

 8)--))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 29, 2015, 09:29:43 AM

How many times do I have to say, TOPIC. PLEASE?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: LagosBen on June 29, 2015, 11:09:54 AM
So you think that pointing out that a fund which claims to be squeaky clean -  is in reality deceiving the public into thinking far more people are supporting it than actually are  - and then allows this false information to be spread  via the press -  is nitpicking?  Really?

IMO It's obvious that that this disinformation is being allowed to stand because they want the public to believe there are far more supporters than the real total would reveal.    That should tell you something.

And if that's not dishonest I don't know what is.

Will there be a clear account of how the donators money is being used for this appeal?
Considering they insist on the McCann's being super clear....... &%+((£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on June 29, 2015, 11:27:45 AM
I am bemused that an appeal merely challenging the size of the award was allowed at all.

To be clear, that's all (what!) Amaral's challenge consists of ....

How do you know anything? Did you read his appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 29, 2015, 11:34:33 AM
How do you know anything? Did you read his appeal?

That libel was established and proved is evident from the request of Santos at the commencement of proceedings that  they be in camera to protect Madeleine lest Madeleine be alive.

Re-acquaint yourself with the last chapter of Amaral's book if you don't believe me.

Surely Portuguese law does not allow one party to a dispute to reclaim ground already ceded at an earlier juncture unless new information comes to light to justify such a manoeuvre, does it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 29, 2015, 11:36:23 AM
How do you know anything? Did you read his appeal?

Have you, Montclair? If so, where can one find it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 29, 2015, 11:40:52 AM
Will there be a clear account of how the donators money is being used for this appeal?
Considering they insist on the McCann's being super clear....... &%+((£

Well, if the FMF is anything to go by you'll need to spend at least eight years wondering.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 29, 2015, 12:11:07 PM
Will there be a clear account of how the donators money is being used for this appeal?
Considering they insist on the McCann's being super clear....... &%+((£

Ah, back again. 8(0(*

You mean like the mccanns funds are not  ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on June 29, 2015, 12:15:51 PM
My apologies, if this has already been posted. Thought that it might be of interest to some posters.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


£32,675!!

Fantastic support has been shown to Gonçalo Amaral via your comments and shares! Just one donation away from 2,000 donors. Thank you all so much for continuing to support Snr Amaral.

PJGA was founded as a quest for justice and backed by supporters from all over the globe, in solidarity, friendship and above all, in the interest of furthering the investigation of the case into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. Within this scope, with the relentless support of those who will not let this case pass into obscurity, who do not tolerate the leaving of unanswered questions, there are many who follow Amaral’s dissatisfaction, and whom, like him, urge for the day the truth, or some more of it will emerge.

During the last months of 2009, a group of Gonçalo Amaral friends realised that it would be impossible for him to face the costs of his defence in the civil suit that was filed against him personally – as well as against others – brought by the McCann couple and their children, in response to his book “Maddie, A Verdade Da Mentira”.

Lawsuits in Portugal are expensive, like anywhere else in the world, and the Portuguese State will only help funding legal costs if one is completely destitute. With part of his pension and the total of his assets frozen, Gonçalo Amaral would not be able to cover the legal expenses; what was left of his pension was barely enough to meet everyday living costs, but it was more than enough for the State to refuse financial support.

Therefore, his friends decided to open a private bank account, where funds would be kept to pay, whenever necessary and whenever possible, expenses that were presented by Mr Amaral’s lawyer. Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral was born out of solidarity and friendship.

The trial is ongoing, since 2009, nothing has changed, pending final judgment. We continue to accept your donations only into this one bank account and we continue to meet only legal expenses out of that very same account.

If any funds are left unused, they will be donated to a Portuguese children’s charity, according to Gonçalo Amaral’s wishes.

There are many ways to contribute to this Project. You can help by spreading information about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann by highlighting the Case File information. You can help by voicing your support for freedom of expression and freedom of opinion. You can help by supporting Gonçalo Amaral’s defence account.

We trust that Justice will be served.

Thank you.
http://www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 29, 2015, 12:27:49 PM
That's a heck of a lot of dosh to mount a defence that consists of little more than theMcCannsshouldhavegotlesscoztheyweren'twithMadeleinewhenshewasabducted ...

I'm sure, if I learnt a few key Portuguese phrases, I could present that defence for a minute fraction of the cost ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 29, 2015, 12:32:11 PM
£33230. Today expect another £103 and the magic figure of £33333 will be reached. A third of the way to £100000, it blows a huge raspberry in the general direction of the multi-millionaires who pay the other sides legals. 
And this has been achieved despite a blanket gag in the UK and PT mainstream press and tv..
And before any high-profile donor gets on board. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 29, 2015, 12:35:23 PM
£33230. Today expect another £103 and the magic figure of £33333 will be reached. A third of the way to £100000, it blows a huge raspberry in the general direction of the multi-millionaires who pay the other sides legals. 
And this has been achieved despite a blanket gag in the UK and PT mainstream press and tv..
And before any high-profile donor gets on board.

What on earth is this claim that there is a "blanket ban" in the UK press and tv?  Perhaps you could elucidate?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 29, 2015, 12:38:09 PM
That's a heck of a lot of dosh to mount a defence that consists of little more than theMcCannsshouldhavegotlesscoztheyweren'twithMadeleinewhenshewasabducted ...

I'm sure, if I learnt a few key Portuguese phrases, I could present that defence for a minute fraction of the cost ...

Do you know what Amaral's appeal actually says or are you merely guessing?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 29, 2015, 12:40:02 PM
Yeah, 1000 people, 2000 people what does it matter anyway, it's still a miniscule amount of support in the grand scheme of things, especially when you consider that Amaral is supposedly a national hero in Portugal.
Yes £33,333 is a pathetically miniscule amount of support-
it's not even enough to run a website for 11 months.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 29, 2015, 12:41:45 PM
Do you know what Amaral's appeal actually says or are you merely guessing?

A logical inference based on known facts and details of earlier stages of proceedings.

There can be no denying that Santos expressly contradicted the last chapter of Amaral's book by saying what he did.

What price Amaral's appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 29, 2015, 12:43:11 PM
A logical inference based on known facts and details of earlier stages of proceedings.

There can be no denying that Santos expressly contradicted the last chapter of Amaral's book by saying what he did.

What price Amaral's appeal?

Perhaps you should remember when the book ban was overturned, and it did not impede the search.

A myth you perpetuated.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 29, 2015, 12:47:23 PM
What on earth is this claim that there is a "blanket ban" in the UK press and tv?  Perhaps you could elucidate?
Certainly, here is a list of all mainstream UK and PT papers and TV stations that have reported the GFM appeal reaching its 25K target in this case which is definitely of great interest to the UK and PT public.
(list attached, apologies for the large file size)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 29, 2015, 12:51:27 PM
£33230. Today expect another £103 and the magic figure of £33333 will be reached. A third of the way to £100000, it blows a huge raspberry in the general direction of the multi-millionaires who pay the other sides legals. 
And this has been achieved despite a blanket gag in the UK and PT mainstream press and tv..
And before any high-profile donor gets on board.

What on earth is likely to cost that much in a Portuguese civil appeal case? He has some knowledge of the law, so does his daughter, and presumably any law student fan could look up legislation in his favour.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 29, 2015, 12:56:55 PM
Certainly, here is a list of all mainstream UK and PT papers and TV stations that have reported the GFM appeal reaching its 25K target in this case which is definitely of great interest to the UK and PT public.
(list attached, apologies for the large file size)

Why would this be newsworthy for the national press of either country?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: LagosBen on June 29, 2015, 01:00:56 PM
Ah, back again. 8(0(*

You mean like the mccanns funds are not  ?
I don't normally respond to [moderated] ...but I must be mistaken in thinking that I have seen PROPER accounts from the FindMadeleine Fund  posted and checked every financial year. &%+((£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 29, 2015, 01:01:19 PM
A logical inference based on known facts and details of earlier stages of proceedings.

There can be no denying that Santos expressly contradicted the last chapter of Amaral's book by saying what he did.

What price Amaral's appeal?

So you've no idea then? Thought not.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 29, 2015, 01:04:12 PM

No Insults, Please.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 29, 2015, 01:11:41 PM
I don't normally respond to idiots....but I must be mistaken in thinking that I have seen PROPER accounts from the FindMadeleine Fund  posted and checked every financial year. &%+((£

The Find Madeleine Fund has complied with the minimum legal requirements with regard to their accounts. This doesn't allow any interested parties to discover how much has been spent on particular items, which is why they have been criticised for not being more transparent.

There is no legal requirement for the PJGA Fund to give any details about what has been donated or spent.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 29, 2015, 01:21:03 PM
The Find Madeleine Fund has complied with the minimum legal requirements with regard to their accounts. This doesn't allow any interested parties to discover how much has been spent on particular items, which is why they have been criticised for not being more transparent.

There is no legal requirement for the PJGA Fund to give any details about what has been donated or spent.

So you don't criticise PJGA for absence of transparency

But you do criticise Find Madeleine for not being more transparent than it is?

Why is that?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 29, 2015, 01:28:40 PM
So you don't criticise PJGA for absence of transparency

But you do criticise Find Madeleine for not being more transparent than it is?

Why is that?

I pointed out that the FMF has been criticised for merely complying with the letter of the law. I never said by me did I?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 29, 2015, 01:30:49 PM
I don't normally respond to [moderated] ...but I must be mistaken in thinking that I have seen PROPER accounts from the FindMadeleine Fund  posted and checked every financial year. &%+((£

As charming as ever in your replies. 8)-)))

That comes as no surprise.

The mccanns promised full and transparent accounts.

They didn't deliver.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 29, 2015, 01:59:30 PM
What on earth is likely to cost that much in a Portuguese civil appeal case? He has some knowledge of the law, so does his daughter, and presumably any law student fan could look up legislation in his favour.
As a fan I've already suggested something he might use. But a logical way to assess how much money he needs for lawyers, is to look at how much the other side are spending on their very expensive top Portuguese and UK lawyers, and try to equal that? You can't have a fair game of rugby if the pitch is sloping. You can't win a round the world balloon race with a self-inflated party balloon.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 29, 2015, 02:08:45 PM
Why would this be newsworthy for the national press of either country?
Large numbers of the public in both countries are interested in this case.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 29, 2015, 03:37:37 PM
Certainly, here is a list of all mainstream UK and PT papers and TV stations that have reported the GFM appeal reaching its 25K target in this case which is definitely of great interest to the UK and PT public.
(list attached, apologies for the large file size)

You seem to think it is actually newsworthy, and the lack of fulsome articles is because of a blanket ban?  Sory to burst your bubble, but I really think the lack of press coverage is because outside this tiny corne rof the internet, it simply isn't news worth mentioning or discussing.

As an objective test - Can you find links to (lets set the bar low) three websites or blogs not already dedicated to the McCanns case (so this forum, and Jill Haverns, and Morais do not count) that are protesting about the "gagging of the press" and the "blanket ban"?

Or have they all been "got at" too?



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 29, 2015, 03:40:33 PM
You seem to think it is actually newsworthy, and the lack of fulsome articles is because of a blanket ban?  Sory to burst your bubble, but I really think the lack of press coverage is because outside this tiny corne rof the internet, it simply isn't news worth mentioning or discussing.

As an objective test - Can you find links to (lets set the bar low) three websites or blogs not already dedicated to the McCanns case (so this forum, and Jill Haverns, and Morais do not count) that are protesting about the "gagging of the press" and the "blanket ban"?

Or have they all been "got at" too?


I think the Brit press have made their bed and now they have to lie on it regardless of the thorns.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 29, 2015, 03:46:05 PM
As a fan I've already suggested something he might use. But a logical way to assess how much money he needs for lawyers, is to look at how much the other side are spending on their very expensive top Portuguese and UK lawyers, and try to equal that? You can't have a fair game of rugby if the pitch is sloping. You can't win a round the world balloon race with a self-inflated party balloon.

This isn't a criminal case, Pegasus. If it had been, and expert witnesses had to be flown over, or attempts to reconstruct bullet or sound trajectories had been needed, I'd have agreed with you.

But it's not.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 29, 2015, 04:30:55 PM
This isn't a criminal case, Pegasus. If it had been, and expert witnesses had to be flown over, or attempts to reconstruct bullet or sound trajectories had been needed, I'd have agreed with you.

But it's not.
On this civil case Mr Amaral's opponent has spent and continues to spend a huge amount of money on top lawyers. Therefore it is reasonable for Mr Amaral to hire a lawyer.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 29, 2015, 04:43:41 PM
£33230. Today expect another £103 and the magic figure of £33333 will be reached. A third of the way to £100000, it blows a huge raspberry in the general direction of the multi-millionaires who pay the other sides legals. 
And this has been achieved despite a blanket gag in the UK and PT mainstream press and tv..
And before any high-profile donor gets on board.
I'm sorry but the idea of a £33,333 GoFundMe blowing a huge raspberry in the direction of multi-millionaires is rather amusing to me.  A bit like an ant stamping on an elephant's foot. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 29, 2015, 04:51:20 PM
I'm sorry but the idea of a £33,333 GoFundMe blowing a huge raspberry in the direction of multi-millionaires is rather amusing to me.  A bit like an ant stamping on an elephant's foot.

I love that analogy ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 29, 2015, 04:57:02 PM
I love that analogy ....

Of course you do.

How many people donated by the way to her recent charity cycling event, and how many to Amaral ?

Do you share Sadie's viewpoint that Amaral has got a lot of PR companies on his side ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 29, 2015, 05:02:38 PM
"ensuring that the organisation’s
assets and property are used only to
deliver its stated objects and aims"
Source: Good Governance Code page 19
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 29, 2015, 05:06:20 PM
I love that analogy ....
I prefer the "sloping rugby pitch" analogy.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 29, 2015, 05:48:42 PM
I prefer the "sloping rugby pitch" analogy.

not that good because at half time they change ends
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 29, 2015, 06:00:10 PM
not that good because at half time they change ends
Precisely, and I have orange slices ready
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 29, 2015, 06:05:39 PM
I thought the general consensus was that Duarte was rubbish....perhaps its  a case of Ipso factor loqui...or something like that
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 29, 2015, 06:27:22 PM
I don't understand.

All that needs to be assured for the appeal is the correct procedure and relevant facts /  legal arguments to dispute.

What's so complicated?

It's not about bringing in foreign ballistics experts.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 29, 2015, 06:44:42 PM
He'll argue his rights as a free citizen.

He'll no doubt dispute that the infringement of his duty to maintain confidentiality once retired was of a lower nature than his right to freedom of speech.

Other media were discussing whether the McCanns were involved or not. Facilitated by the leaks during his tenure *cough*, but that would seem to be inadmissible in this civil trial.


The amount... well the amount does seem to be a little above what he actually earned during 2008-2009 according to the tax office, but it isn't clear when fees for TV broadcast right -  initially suspended - were negotiated, and whether those fees were reimbursed pending the overturning of the injunction.

He could also argue the extent of the distress caused by his book / documentary and the quantifiable aspect of that.


Anything else?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 29, 2015, 07:27:12 PM
He'll argue his rights as a free citizen.

He'll no doubt dispute that the infringement of his duty to maintain confidentiality once retired was of a lower nature than his right to freedom of speech.

Other media were discussing whether the McCanns were involved or not. Facilitated by the leaks during his tenure *cough*, but that would seem to be inadmissible in this civil trial.


The amount... well the amount does seem to be a little above what he actually earned during 2008-2009 according to the tax office, but it isn't clear when fees for TV broadcast right -  initially suspended - were negotiated, and whether those fees were reimbursed pending the overturning of the injunction.

He could also argue the extent of the distress caused by his book / documentary and the quantifiable aspect of that.


Anything else?

I'm not 100% sure, but the law which the judge used for the 'presumption of innocence' argument seemed to refer to 'suspects' and to the judiciary. The McCanns and the UK media claimed they were no longer suspects following the archiving of the investigation. Could Amaral still be seen as part of the judicial process I wonder?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on June 29, 2015, 08:03:00 PM
I'm not 100% sure, but the law which the judge used for the 'presumption of innocence' argument seemed to refer to 'suspects' and to the judiciary. The McCanns and the UK media claimed they were no longer suspects following the archiving of the investigation. Could Amaral still be seen as part of the judicial process I wonder?

The judge said that they'd never stopped benefiting from the presumption of innocence and were therefore entiled to that presumption.

However, who by? Is that presumption seriously only applicable to acting or former civil servants? 

If so, we could all accuse our neighbours of being serial killers... where does it stop?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 29, 2015, 08:34:45 PM
I'm not 100% sure, but the law which the judge used for the 'presumption of innocence' argument seemed to refer to 'suspects' and to the judiciary. The McCanns and the UK media claimed they were no longer suspects following the archiving of the investigation. Could Amaral still be seen as part of the judicial process I wonder?

The relevant text is here:

1.In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interest of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice.

2.Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.

3.Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him;(b) to have adequate time and the facilities for the preparation of his defence;(c) to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;(d) to examine or have examined witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;(e) to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 29, 2015, 09:07:57 PM
The relevant text is here:

1.In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interest of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice.

2.Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.

3.Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him;(b) to have adequate time and the facilities for the preparation of his defence;(c) to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;(d) to examine or have examined witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;(e) to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court.

Thank you, Jean-Pierre. Everyone charged then? How did she apply this in this case I wonder.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 29, 2015, 09:15:54 PM
Thank you, Jean-Pierre. Everyone charged then? How did she apply this in this case I wonder.

OK - for the hard of thinking I will have to translate.

Everyone charged with an offence is presumed innocent.  So if the McCanns had reached the stage of being charged, then they would still be presumed innocent until found guilty by a court of law.

It follows that everyone else (i.e all those who have not be charged with any offence) are also presumed innocent. 

Complicated, eh?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on June 29, 2015, 09:19:59 PM
OK - for the hard of thinking I will have to translate.

Everyone charged with an offence is presumed innocent.  So if the McCanns had reached the stage of being charged, then they would still be presumed innocent until found guilty by a court of law.

It follows that everyone else (i.e all those who have not be charged with any offence) are also presumed innocent. 

Complicated, eh?

Yes! Why didn't she just say that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 29, 2015, 09:31:09 PM
Yes! Why didn't she just say that.

She did.  Excerpt from the translation below. 

Also the bit highlighted is key in demonstrating that police officers (among other officials) will be held to higher standards, for obvious reasons.

______________


"The protection of the rights of the claimants to their good name and reputation is, in this case, closely related to the presumption of innocence.

 The claimants Gerald and Kate McCann were made arguidos (formal suspects) in the criminal investigation, a status that had the function to guarantee their rights (though not being interpreted this way by the general public) and ceased with the closure of the investigation having the dispatch (AG) report concluded :

it has not been possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a average man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively - the most dramatic - to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely.

 (…) Therefore, after all seen, analysed and duly pondered, with all that is left exposed, it is determined: (…) The archiving of the process concerning arguidos Gerald Patrick McCann and Kate Marie Healy, because there are no indications of the practise of any crime under the dispositions of article 277 number 1 of the Penal Process Code.
 (No. 15).
 
 
Page 41


 

In the European Court of Human Rights' jurisprudence, the principle of presumption of innocence imposes a standard of conduct for all agents, public servants and magistrates involved in the administration of criminal justice.

 The presumption of innocence prohibits, according to these decisions, the premature expression of opinions or beliefs of guilt by the courts but also assumptions by public officers involved in procedures which might lead the public to suspect the responsibility of the suspects in the facts under investigation.


 Accordingly in the Karaman vs Germany case, the decision claims that

The Court has previously held in this context that Art 6-2 aims at preventing undermining of a fair criminal trial by prejudicial statements made in close connection with proceedings. It not only prohibits the premature expression by the tribunal itself of the opinion the person «charged with a criminal offence» is guilty before he has been so proved according to the law, but also covers statements made by other public officials about pending criminal investigations which encourage the public to believe the suspect guilty and prejudge an assessment of the facts by the competent judicial authority [HUDOC (  26 )].

 In the Allen vs UK case, the ECHR   emphasized the importance of the presumption after the acquittal or dismissal of the criminal investigation, explaining that this principle prevents suspects or defendants in such cases are treated as if they were in fact responsible for the criminal offences of which they were accused and stressing that without this second level of protection – the level of full respect for acquittal or archiving – the presumption of innocence would remain illusory or merely ideal. (  27   ) Likewise, the presumption of innocence requires that the absence of guilt that emanates from it is respected, after the acquittal or dismissal, in all legal proceedings of any kind and by any authority that comes into contact with these facts [idem Allen vs United Kingdom].

 In this case, the claimants Kate and Gerald MacCann never ceased to benefit from this presumption of innocence and from the behaviour imperative that this presumption places on national judicial and justice authorities and on all the civil servants and agents.

 The defendant Goncalo Amaral was the coordinator of criminal investigation from the date of the crime breaking news and October 2nd, 2007 (No. 12)
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on June 30, 2015, 01:12:50 AM
Of course you do.

How many people donated by the way to her recent charity cycling event, and how many to Amaral ?

Do you share Sadie's viewpoint that Amaral has got a lot of PR companies on his side ?
You are misrepresenting me stephen.

I have never said that Amaral has PR Companies on his side.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 30, 2015, 02:50:21 AM
You are misrepresenting me stephen.

I have never said that Amaral has PR Companies on his side.
It would be most unusual in a missing child case to hire PR companies IMO.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Justice K on June 30, 2015, 07:31:40 AM
It would be most unusual in a missing child case to hire PR companies IMO.

Unless you had a reputation and a career to protect of course.  Another issue which bothered me greatly was why the McCanns felt it expedient to have a secrecy clause in their contract with Halligen and Oakley International when they promised total transparency from the outset?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 30, 2015, 07:38:14 AM
Unless you had a reputation and a career to protect of course.  Another issue which bothered me greatly was why the McCanns felt it expedient to have a secrecy clause in their contract with Halligen and Oakley International when they promised total transparency from the outset?

the answer is obvious and in no way sinister
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 30, 2015, 07:46:59 AM
You are misrepresenting me stephen.

I have never said that Amaral has PR Companies on his side.

So what did you say sadie ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Justice K on June 30, 2015, 07:55:24 AM
the answer is obvious and in no way sinister

What is obvious is that they say one thing but do the opposite which does them no favours whatsoever.  If the Oakley Report is so innocuous then why not release it ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 30, 2015, 07:58:49 AM
What is obvious is that they say one thing but do the opposite which does them no favours whatsoever.  If the Oakley Report is so innocuous then why not release it ?

Because it isn't innocuous but very damaging and that was what their own private investigators thought. hmm...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 30, 2015, 08:00:55 AM
What is obvious is that they say one thing but do the opposite which does them no favours whatsoever.  If the Oakley Report is so innocuous then why not release it ?
almost all people in the public eye have confidentiality clauses in their contracts to stop stories being sold to newspapers....The only people making demands on the McCanns are a few  sceptics on the net....why should the McCanns do anything to satisfy them
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 30, 2015, 08:01:55 AM
Because it isn't innocuous but very damaging and that was what their own private investigators thought. hmm...

Well SY have it so they can make their own judgement and act on it...none of our business
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 30, 2015, 08:02:15 AM
Unless you had a reputation and a career to protect of course.  Another issue which bothered me greatly was why the McCanns felt it expedient to have a secrecy clause in their contract with Halligen and Oakley International when they promised total transparency from the outset?
When did they promise total transparency into their private investigation into Madeleine's disappearance?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 30, 2015, 08:06:28 AM
Well SY have it so they can make their own judgement and act on it...none of our business

Raises the question as to what other secrets they are hiding?  As to credibility...what credibility??
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 30, 2015, 08:08:00 AM
When did they promise total transparency into their private investigation into Madeleine's disappearance?

When they created the Maddie fund using the publics money.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 30, 2015, 08:10:37 AM
Raises the question as to what other secrets they are hiding?  As to credibility...what credibility??
May one ask why you believe that every single detail of this case should be in the public domain at this moment in time?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on June 30, 2015, 08:49:58 AM
Bumped

When did they promise total transparency into their private investigation into Madeleine's disappearance?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 30, 2015, 08:53:10 AM
Now, didn't they promise a full an open investigation ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on June 30, 2015, 08:54:26 AM
Because it isn't innocuous but very damaging and that was what their own private investigators thought. hmm...

How can you make such a definite claim - when you haven't read the report?

On the other hand SY have read it - and obviously didn't find it ''very damaging'' - or they would not have been able to rule the McCanns out of the investigation.

IMO your statement which (without access to the report)  cannot possibly be substantiated  - is libellous.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 30, 2015, 08:56:00 AM
Now, didn't they promise a full an open investigation ?
Cite.  Who, when, where.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 30, 2015, 09:06:11 AM
Cite.  Who, when, where.

That's what I recall Alfred.

Question is, why wouldn't they do that ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 30, 2015, 09:33:18 AM
That's what I recall Alfred.

Question is, why wouldn't they do that ?

I don't think your recollection is terribly good, Stephen.  So unless you can provide a cite for this then its not worth discussing.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 30, 2015, 09:39:49 AM
A reminder of the post that I was replying to initially:

Quote
Unless you had a reputation and a career to protect of course.  Another issue which bothered me greatly was why the McCanns felt it expedient to have a secrecy clause in their contract with Halligen and Oakley International when they promised total transparency from the outset?

to which I replied:
Quote
When did they promise total transparency into their private investigation into Madeleine's disappearance?

Stephen then chipped in with

Quote
Now, didn't they promise a full an open investigation ?

To which I requested a cite and an explanation for why a full and open investigation would benefit Madeleine.

Got it now Stephen?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on June 30, 2015, 10:07:22 AM
Now, didn't they promise a full an open investigation ?

I think you may be asking entirely the wrong question there Stephen.

I think the right question is  ...  why on earth were the parents of a missing child having to mount their own private investigation in the first place?

My answer to that one is ... the police weren't.  So if Madeleine McCann's parents hadn't commissioned people to keep on investigating no-one would.

Files from these investigations along with police files formed the basis of the information reviewed ... which led to the reopening of Madeleine's case.

I'm still a bit bemused about the grounds which will be presented in appeal ... I'm even more bemused by the deafening silence coming out of Portugal concerning it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on June 30, 2015, 10:42:21 AM
She did.  Excerpt from the translation below. 

Also the bit highlighted is key in demonstrating that police officers (among other officials) will be held to higher standards, for obvious reasons.

______________

snip
"
In the European Court of Human Rights' jurisprudence, the principle of presumption of innocence imposes a standard of conduct for all agents, public servants and magistrates involved in the administration of criminal justice.

 The presumption of innocence prohibits, according to these decisions, the premature expression of opinions or beliefs of guilt by the courts but also assumptions by public officers involved in procedures which might lead the public to suspect the responsibility of the suspects in the facts under investigation.


 Accordingly in the Karaman vs Germany case, the decision claims that

The Court has previously held in this context that Art 6-2 aims at preventing undermining of a fair criminal trial by prejudicial statements made in close connection with proceedings. It not only prohibits the premature expression by the tribunal itself of the opinion the person «charged with a criminal offence» is guilty before he has been so proved according to the law, but also covers statements made by other public officials about pending criminal investigations which encourage the public to believe the suspect guilty and prejudge an assessment of the facts by the competent judicial authority [HUDOC (  26 )].
[/i][/u]
 

Just as a matter of interest Jean-Pierre.   Do you think the Gofundme Fund could be used as evidence of 'encouraging the public' - ?.    Just curious.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on June 30, 2015, 10:45:58 AM

TOPIC. PLEASE.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on June 30, 2015, 10:47:22 AM
Topic?

Where is there independent confirmation Amaral has been granted leave to appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 30, 2015, 10:49:49 AM
Just as a matter of interest Jean-Pierre.   Do you think the Gofundme Fund could be used as evidence of 'encouraging the public' - ?.    Just curious.
No - I don't think so.  It is a pretty straightforward effort to raise money to pay for Amaral's appeal.

I think the judge was having a pop at the UK and Portuguese press, and various forums where the view "Arguido = suspect" were promulgated. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: LagosBen on June 30, 2015, 10:54:13 AM
The Find Madeleine Fund has complied with the minimum legal requirements with regard to their accounts. This doesn't allow any interested parties to discover how much has been spent on particular items, which is why they have been criticised for not being more transparent.

There is no legal requirement for the PJGA Fund to give any details about what has been donated or spent.

No legal requirements - how convenient for them.

IIRC there have been no statements of how monies have been spent since the PJGA Fund began a few years back. As the amount was tiny I guess it wasn't a problem. However now with the latest GFM figures - surely there will be a moral obligation owed to those multi socked gullibles who donated - to be informed of just how exactly their benefits/ monies have been used to assist Amaral.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on June 30, 2015, 11:00:36 AM
No - I don't think so.  It is a pretty straightforward effort to raise money to pay for Amaral's appeal.

I think the judge was having a pop at the UK and Portuguese press, and various forums where the view "Arguido = suspect" were promulgated.

OK.  Thanks for that JP.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 30, 2015, 11:21:39 AM
No legal requirements - how convenient for them.

IIRC there have been no statements of how monies have been spent since the PJGA Fund began a few years back. As the amount was tiny I guess it wasn't a problem. However now with the latest GFM figures - surely there will be a moral obligation owed to those multi socked gullibles who donated - to be informed of just how exactly their benefits/ monies have been used to assist Amaral.

The minimum legal requirement for a small company is:

a ‘balance sheet’, which shows the value of everything the company owns and is owed on the last day of the financial year
a ‘profit and loss account’, which shows the company’s sales, running costs and the profit or loss it has made over the financial year
notes about the accounts
a director’s report

There is no requirement for an auditors report.

The Madeleine Fund is therefore exceeding the minimum standards, and their accounts are in line with the Charity Commission standards for Charities.  If anyone has a specific and reasonable question concerning the accounts I am sure a letter to HaysMac will provide an answer.

G-Unit is correct that there is no legal obligation for PJGA to produce anything at all.  Monies given are by nature gifts. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: LagosBen on June 30, 2015, 11:25:34 AM
The minimum legal requirement for a small company is:

a ‘balance sheet’, which shows the value of everything the company owns and is owed on the last day of the financial year
a ‘profit and loss account’, which shows the company’s sales, running costs and the profit or loss it has made over the financial year
notes about the accounts
a director’s report

There is no requirement for an auditors report.

The Madeleine Fund is therefore exceeding the minimum standards, and their accounts are in line with the Charity Commission standards for Charities.  If anyone has a specific and reasonable question concerning the accounts I am sure a letter to HaysMac will provide an answer.

G-Unit is correct that there is no legal obligation for PJGA to produce anything at all.  Monies given are by nature gifts.

Ty JP  ...GFM no legal obligation as you say - but bad manners not to though. All those folks who scraped together their pounds to send, at least deserve the courtesy of knowing (even roughly) how the money is being spent.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 30, 2015, 11:41:32 AM
Ty JP  ...GFM no legal obligation as you say - but bad manners not to though. All those folks who scraped together their pounds to send, at least deserve the courtesy of knowing (even roughly) how the money is being spent.

It does rather weaken their argument that the Find Madeleine fund is not transparent. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 30, 2015, 12:48:37 PM
It does rather weaken their argument that the Find Madeleine fund is not transparent.

This is like the piped music in a hotel foyer!
The fund isn't transparent in so far that the public can not see how every last penny is spent. It is presented in broad brush terms only, because that is all that is required by law. Where is the problem with that?
OK there is audit so what?  Companies House do not require an audit with the proviso that one has not been requested by a member. An audit could be called for by any member and under the circumstances of "The Fund" it would be pretty daft not to do one.
What Sr Amaral does or does not do will not change that one iota.
It seems to me that neither side wishes to view "what is" and tries to dress it up as something else.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on June 30, 2015, 11:59:41 PM
£33,333..... 33% over-target ... and a third of the way towards £100,000.
But the most important thing is... NW and HM are working hard.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 01, 2015, 12:14:16 AM
Ty JP  ...GFM no legal obligation as you say - but bad manners not to though. All those folks who scraped together their pounds to send, at least deserve the courtesy of knowing (even roughly) how the money is being spent.

1) was never promised as was....
2) no one queried it as was...
3) it's a legal defence fund, period not an "open cheque" as was...
4) if and when any accounts are released, if they are required to do so, and if any promises have been made,  then would be the time to ask questions
5) what exactly is the problem? is it "bad manners" versus "lack of transparency"? (Please note transparency similar to charities was promised and it never transpired, why not?)


 @)(++(*

6) which one is the worst? bad manners over 30 k or lack of transparency despite promised over at least 5 + million, spare us the outrage lol

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 01, 2015, 12:37:46 AM
It would be most unusual in a missing child case to hire PR companies IMO.

Waste of money...I wonder how much they have spent?
I also wonder in how many issuing child cases the parents have used these kind of agencies, to what end and to what result

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on July 01, 2015, 01:20:58 AM
Waste of money...I wonder how much they have spent?
I also wonder in how many issuing child cases the parents have used these kind of agencies, to what end and to what result

You raise an interesting point there.  Do you happen to know how many other cases there are of missing children whose parents have been forced to pay detective agencies to do what the police should be doing?

Madeleine McCann's case was archived which in effect means closed in 2008 ... the police were not looking for her ... obviously you think no-one should.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on July 01, 2015, 01:37:25 AM
You raise an interesting point there.  Do you happen to know how many other cases there are of missing children whose parents have been forced to pay detective agencies to do what the police should be doing?

Madeleine McCann's case was archived which in effect means closed in 2008 ... the police were not looking for her ... obviously you think no-one should.
Metodo 3 were hired in early September 2007.
9 months before the case was archived.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on July 01, 2015, 02:05:12 AM
Metodo 3 were hired in early September 2007.
9 months before the case was archived.

The McCanns were made arguidos in early September 2007 and were thus aware that they were the focus of the investigation ... not Madeleine.

So in fact the police were not looking for Madeleine McCann from nine months before the case was archived.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on July 01, 2015, 02:13:12 AM
The McCanns were made arguidos in early September 2007 and were thus aware that they were the focus of the investigation ... not Madeleine.

So in fact the police were not looking for Madeleine McCann from nine months before the case was archived.
After Sept 2007 PJ and LP were still investigating leads nothing to do with the parents.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 01, 2015, 02:49:15 AM
After Sept 2007 PJ and LP were still investigating leads nothing to do with the parents.

Correct, as witnessed in the files aplenty, anyone who says otherwise is lying or supporting an abysmal  black propaganda for reasons unknown against the Portuguese police which started almost immediately post 3 May 2007...THIS FACT has not gone beyond many peoples notice

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on July 01, 2015, 03:04:19 AM
Correct, as witnessed in the files aplenty, anyone who says otherwise is lying or supporting an abysmal  black propaganda for reasons unknown against the Portuguese police which started almost immediately post 3 May 2007...THIS FACT has not gone beyond many peoples notice
Yes for example Rebelo and other PJ officers were actively investigating the abduction theory, testing ways to climb in the window, and ways to pass a child out the window, in October 2007. Metodo3 were hired a month before this.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 01, 2015, 03:11:06 AM
You raise an interesting point there.  Do you happen to know how many other cases there are of missing children whose parents have been forced to pay detective agencies to do what the police should be doing?

Madeleine McCann's case was archived which in effect means closed in 2008 ... the police were not looking for her ... obviously you think no-one should.

The point I raised was about PR Agencies NOT PIs
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 01, 2015, 03:23:04 AM
Yes for example Rebelo and other PJ officers were actively investigating the abduction theory, testing ways to climb in the window, and ways to pass a child out the window, in October 2007. Metodo3 were hired a month before this.

It wasn't just that though....
There were still sightings being followed up and other works

I have no idea if the Pj were a crap force or an excellent force  (most accounts point to the latter) but what is resoundingly clear to me and very strange is that there was a concerted campaign to discredit them right from the start, as well as the personal targeting of the coordinator, Mr Amaral, all by the British press, (and followed on by the  groups that want to exonerate the Mccanns before the police actually do) that STINKS to me

and let's face it, no one has officially exonerated them though many thrash around trying to say so lol, goodnight pegasus
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on July 01, 2015, 06:38:44 AM

Could we get back On Topic, please?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on July 01, 2015, 10:16:52 AM
So where is the confirmation that Amaral will appeal to the higher court?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 01, 2015, 10:23:58 AM
So where is the confirmation that Amaral will appeal to the higher court?

Desperate, very desperate.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on July 01, 2015, 10:33:50 AM

I do not wish to spend my day deleting Insults.  Can we bear this in mind, please?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on July 01, 2015, 10:43:54 AM
So where is the confirmation that Amaral will appeal to the higher court?

I'm interested in that too, Ferryman.  Obviously there is no 'gagging' order on this considering the interviews given by Mr Amaral in the immediate aftermath of the judgement being handed down.

Obviously it might be inappropriate to have the nitty gritty published on MSM but surely it isn't too much to expect that Mr Amaral or a spokesperson could give a broad outline.

Or is it the conclusion that the media in Portugal is just plain disinterested?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on July 01, 2015, 11:47:39 AM
I don't expect any more "news" about this until sometime towards the end of the year.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on July 01, 2015, 12:07:33 PM
I'm interested in that too, Ferryman.  Obviously there is no 'gagging' order on this considering the interviews given by Mr Amaral in the immediate aftermath of the judgement being handed down.

Obviously it might be inappropriate to have the nitty gritty published on MSM but surely it isn't too much to expect that Mr Amaral or a spokesperson could give a broad outline.

Or is it the conclusion that the media in Portugal is just plain disinterested?

Allow me to help;

This secrecy also includes civil cases. Although the parties involved in a litigation are named at the outset, once the papers are in the court obtaining further information can be frustrating for an investigator.We know that A is suing B for 5,000 euros. What we cannot find out is what it was for, and when it is likely to come to trial. - See more at: http://portugalresident.com/secrecy-of-justice-in-portugal#sthash.9FlxvaAt.dpuf
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 01, 2015, 12:21:27 PM
Allow me to help;

This secrecy also includes civil cases. Although the parties involved in a litigation are named at the outset, once the papers are in the court obtaining further information can be frustrating for an investigator.We know that A is suing B for 5,000 euros. What we cannot find out is what it was for, and when it is likely to come to trial. - See more at: http://portugalresident.com/secrecy-of-justice-in-portugal#sthash.9FlxvaAt.dpuf

Interesting!
This bit too: One problem about the Secrecy of Justice is that the press can run reports based on speculation about how an investigation is progressing - but the police cannot make a statement correcting their articles.

I would work on the presumption that if Sr Amaral said he will appeal the judgement as far as the judicial process allows, then he will do just that. If he doesn't wish to announce it through a megaphone that's his business. If one is to believe the principle propounded in the article you have linked, then silence could indicate that he has already put his papers in to the court.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 01, 2015, 12:24:38 PM
It begs the question - why Amaral's views on how the trial was progressing were solicited and freely given prior to the judgement being handed down...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on July 01, 2015, 12:51:06 PM
It begs the question - why Amaral's views on how the trial was progressing were solicited and freely given prior to the judgement being handed down...

Do you have links please?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 01, 2015, 01:36:53 PM
Do you have links please?
Just look up any Amaral interview for the last few years.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on July 01, 2015, 01:56:09 PM
Just look up any Amaral interview for the last few years.

You ask for cites but you don't provide them yourself.


Quote from: stephen25000 on June 30, 2015, 08:53:10 AM
Now, didn't they promise a full an open investigation ?
Cite.  Who, when, where. SAID ALFRED!!!!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 01, 2015, 02:05:02 PM
You ask for cites but you don't provide them yourself.


Quote from: stephen25000 on June 30, 2015, 08:53:10 AM
Now, didn't they promise a full an open investigation ?
Cite.  Who, when, where. SAID ALFRED!!!!
I ask for cites when I know none actually exist.  You ask for cites when you know they do - that's the difference.  Do you not recall Amaral claiming in interview(s) to be quietly confident about winning the case prior to the judgment?  It was not that long ago either.  If you honestly, hand on heart do not, then I will spend some time looking for the cite, OK?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on July 01, 2015, 02:14:03 PM
I ask for cites when I know none actually exist.  You ask for cites when you know they do - that's the difference.  Do you not recall Amaral claiming in interview(s) to be quietly confident about winning the case prior to the judgment?  It was not that long ago either.  If you honestly, hand on heart do not, then I will spend some time looking for the cite, OK?

I wouldn't class being 'quietly confident' as breaking secrecy. Also, the trial was public so was there to be reported on daily. I haven't seen any interviews actually, but don't go out of your way. The secrecy was breached in this case by having a public trial. It may cover the appeal now being considered.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 01, 2015, 02:14:29 PM
Here's but one example of sarky old Ammy chatting about the lawsuit in Portugal's "O Crime" magazine (looks a bit like Titbits for Portuguese fans of "crime") from 2012
 http://www.mccannfiles.com/id408.html


At what stage is the civil proceeding the McCanns have against you?

We are at a pre-trial hearing stage. Presently, my new lawyer has been "tweaking" a process that was halted and that has stirred some panic in the opposing side.

One of the strongest arguments of the accusation alleges that Gonçalo Amaral became enriched with the book's author rights. What is your reaction to this claim?

If someone wants to talk about "enrichment", they should think firstly in the parents of the missing child, in their family, in their support "staff" and in their illustrious lawyer. In the latter case, it would be important for the aforementioned lawyer to state how much has she earned and what are her prospects regarding future gains, not to mention the other lawyers, the private detective agencies and PR companies.

Do you have any expectations as to the result of this lawsuit?

The only expectation that I have is that we are going to win the action, since there are no facts or material facts to support the claim. The action of the McCanns is inept. It is this that causes a great despondency in the illustrious lawyer, who felt the need to proceed with a campaign of disinformation and slander against me. She should not forget what she has been saying, because she will answer for that in court.


_______________________

In virtually every interview the "illustrious" ex-cop has given in the last few years he has mouthed off and whinged about the lawsuit against him.  So much for having to keep schtumm for legal reasons.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on July 01, 2015, 02:27:50 PM
Here's but one example of sarky old Ammy chatting about the lawsuit in Portugal's "O Crime" magazine (looks a bit like Titbits for Portuguese fans of "crime") from 2012
 http://www.mccannfiles.com/id408.html


At what stage is the civil proceeding the McCanns have against you?

We are at a pre-trial hearing stage. Presently, my new lawyer has been "tweaking" a process that was halted and that has stirred some panic in the opposing side.

One of the strongest arguments of the accusation alleges that Gonçalo Amaral became enriched with the book's author rights. What is your reaction to this claim?

If someone wants to talk about "enrichment", they should think firstly in the parents of the missing child, in their family, in their support "staff" and in their illustrious lawyer. In the latter case, it would be important for the aforementioned lawyer to state how much has she earned and what are her prospects regarding future gains, not to mention the other lawyers, the private detective agencies and PR companies.

Do you have any expectations as to the result of this lawsuit?

The only expectation that I have is that we are going to win the action, since there are no facts or material facts to support the claim. The action of the McCanns is inept. It is this that causes a great despondency in the illustrious lawyer, who felt the need to proceed with a campaign of disinformation and slander against me. She should not forget what she has been saying, because she will answer for that in court.


_______________________

In virtually every interview the "illustrious" ex-cop has given in the last few years he has mouthed off and whinged about the lawsuit against him.  So much for having to keep schtumm for legal reasons.


That's an interesting find, Alfie...

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on July 01, 2015, 06:59:00 PM
The only expectation that I have is that we are going to win the action, since there are no facts or material facts to support the claim. The action of the McCanns is inept. It is this that causes a great despondency in the illustrious lawyer, who felt the need to proceed with a campaign of disinformation and slander against me. She should not forget what she has been saying, because she will answer for that in court.

Not sure what (if anything!) Isabel Duarte might have said about Amaral outside court, but my guess is, not a lot.

Inside court, all statements are absolutely protected, in Portugal as in England.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 01, 2015, 07:10:00 PM
Anyone know when Amaral plans to sue Duarte?  Will there be enough in the Fund to cover this action as well?  &%+((£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on July 01, 2015, 07:18:18 PM
Anyone know when Amaral plans to sue Duarte?  Will there be enough in the Fund to cover this action as well?  &%+((£

I shouldn't worry.  They'll soon raise enough for that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on July 01, 2015, 07:20:54 PM

One of the strongest arguments of the accusation alleges that Gonçalo Amaral became enriched with the book's author rights. What is your reaction to this claim?

If someone wants to talk about "enrichment", they should think firstly in the parents of the missing child, in their family, in their support "staff" and in their illustrious lawyer. In the latter case, it would be important for the aforementioned lawyer to state how much has she earned and what are her prospects regarding future gains, not to mention the other lawyers, the private detective agencies and PR companies.


In other words, he's admitting that he was enriched as a result, is he? The tax office seems to think so...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 01, 2015, 07:22:25 PM
I shouldn't worry.  They'll soon raise enough for that.
Yep - as soon as the UK and PT press get their fingers out and put the Fund on the front pages he'll have enough to sue Duarte, The McCanns, Mitchell, me and you!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on July 01, 2015, 07:23:19 PM
The only expectation that I have is that we are going to win the action, since there are no facts or material facts to support the claim. The action of the McCanns is inept. It is this that causes a great despondency in the illustrious lawyer, who felt the need to proceed with a campaign of disinformation and slander against me. She should not forget what she has been saying, because she will answer for that in court.

Not sure what (if anything!) Isabel Duarte might have said about Amaral outside court, but my guess is, not a lot.

Inside court, all statements are absolutely protected, in Portugal as in England.

What "disinformation" and "slander" is he talking about?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on July 01, 2015, 07:28:11 PM
Yep - as soon as the UK and PT press get their fingers out and put the Fund on the front pages he'll have enough to sue Duarte, The McCanns, Mitchell, me and you!

I'll contribute to that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on July 01, 2015, 07:45:36 PM
So where is the confirmation that Amaral will appeal to the higher court?

What do you think he did on the 15th of June?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on July 01, 2015, 08:04:35 PM
What do you think he did on the 15th of June?

I've a vague recollection of various announcements from unofficial sources ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 01, 2015, 08:26:46 PM
I've a vague recollection of various announcements from unofficial sources ....

GA is pretty 'official' don't you think?

http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/a-note-of-gratitude.html?m=1
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on July 01, 2015, 08:30:21 PM
No ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 01, 2015, 09:25:56 PM
No ....

Why ever not?

How curious. You don't seem to have a problem in quoting him on other issues.
If,for any bizarre reason, you think an appeal has not been lodged, then you will be proved sorely mistaken.
Why make such a song and dance about something so basic?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 01, 2015, 09:41:44 PM
I've a vague recollection of various announcements from unofficial sources ....


 8)--)) 8)--)) 8)--))

How vague will that be once the appeal starts. *&*%£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on July 01, 2015, 09:48:52 PM

 8)--)) 8)--)) 8)--))

How vague will that be once the appeal starts. *&*%£

I've no doubt the perpetrators of the crime against Madeleine will be brought to justice before any appeal possibly reaches a higher court.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 01, 2015, 09:50:12 PM
I've no doubt the perpetrators of the crime against Madeleine will be brought to justice before any appeal possibly reaches a higher court.

After 8 years of nothing.

Unless we see a 'Barry george' . &%+((£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on July 01, 2015, 09:52:52 PM
It would be down right perverse if culprits (neither the McCanns nor any of their friends) were brought to book for Madeleine's disappearance, and yet Amaral was granted leave to appeal against the judgment of the lower court in the libel trial ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on July 01, 2015, 09:58:01 PM
After 8 years of nothing.

Unless we see a 'Barry george' . &%+((£

Please don't let a little justice for Madeleine dissuade anyone from cancelling their standing orders to GFM. Freedom of speech is so much more important, even if it takes.....how many years?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 01, 2015, 10:03:45 PM
Please don't let a little justice for Madeleine dissuade anyone from cancelling their standing orders to GFM. Freedom of speech is so much more important, even if it takes.....how many years?

and what about spending tax payers money on crimes that can be solved ?

and are not as this case appears to be, a bottomless pit, until the plug is pulled.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 01, 2015, 10:04:21 PM
It would be down right perverse if culprits (neither the McCanns nor any of their friends) were brought to book for Madeleine's disappearance, and yet Amaral was granted leave to appeal against the judgment of the lower court in the libel trial ....

He has appealed. As to the perpetrators, the officials say they don't know what the crime is for a start, let alone have any serious suspects, You're whistling in the wind. Yup, the  appeal will go ahead and moreover, the case has nothing whatsoever to do with any current investigation, nothing at all.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 01, 2015, 10:05:16 PM
After 8 years of nothing.

Unless we see a 'Barry george' . &%+((£

Don't worry, this is impossible, it will never be allowed to happen.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 01, 2015, 10:50:55 PM
I'll contribute to that.
Wanna see some impressive fundaising?  Have a look at this!

https://www.indiegogo.com/greek-bailout-fund.html
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 01, 2015, 11:00:54 PM
Wanna see some impressive fundaising?  Have a look at this!

https://www.indiegogo.com/greek-bailout-fund.html

Wonderful people action


 @)(++(*

Just need a donation from Angela Merkel of a billion and it's sorted! her face is saved, the Greeks will be happy and all will be hunky dory. But not to worry, the Greeks will be fine as the arch evil doers in the EU are losing every day in so many ways more than one


So, any answers to why so many are chewing their carpets over donations to a legal fund? Thought not.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on July 02, 2015, 08:56:26 AM
Wonderful people action


 @)(++(*

Just need a donation from Angela Merkel of a billion and it's sorted! her face is saved, the Greeks will be happy and all will be hunky dory. But not to worry, the Greeks will be fine as the arch evil doers in the EU are losing every day in so many ways more than one


So, any answers to why so many are chewing their carpets over donations to a legal fund? Thought not.

I don't think there is any carpet chewing going on.  Just curiosity at the lack of information - even to subscribers.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 02, 2015, 09:00:25 AM
I don't think there is any carpet chewing going on.  Just curiosity at the lack of information - even to subscribers.

Revenge, the very thing the mccanns wanted with Amaral, is a dish best served cold 8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on July 02, 2015, 09:12:28 AM
and what about spending tax payers money on crimes that can be solved ?

and are not as this case appears to be, a bottomless pit, until the plug is pulled.

A casual observer might be led to believe you never want Madeleine McCann's case solved.

Objection!!! to the Madeleine Fund.

Objection!!! to 'taxpayers' money'.

Crimes will never be solved ...
if no-one investigates them to find out
(a)  the nature of the crime  and
(b)  who dunnit.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 02, 2015, 09:16:45 AM
A casual observer might be led to believe you never want Madeleine McCann's case solved.

Objection!!! to the Madeleine Fund.

Objection!!! to 'taxpayers' money'.

Crimes will never be solved ...
if no-one investigates them to find out
(a)  the nature of the crime  and
(b)  who dunnit.




How long with no results will the investigation be allowed to continue with no results.

Cue the cleaning upchewing gum analogy. 8)--))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on July 02, 2015, 09:30:03 AM

Watch the insults, please.  They will be deleted, including the entire post if modifying is too complicated.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on July 02, 2015, 09:31:07 AM

How long with no results will the investigation be allowed to continue with no results.

Cue the cleaning upchewing gum analogy. 8)--))

You are ignorant of precisely what SY and the PJ are doing or precisely how far they have got in doing it.  I will take notice when the professional investigators tell us they have taken Madeleine McCann's case as far as it can possibly be taken.

In the interim ... a truth seeker ... who strains every sinew in objection to the truth being sought ... evidences a really odd philosophy.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 02, 2015, 09:36:45 AM
You are ignorant of precisely what SY and the PJ are doing or precisely how far they have got in doing it.  I will take notice when the professional investigators tell us they have taken Madeleine McCann's case as far as it can possibly be taken.

In the interim ... a truth seeker ... who strains every sinew in objection to the truth being sought ... evidences a really odd philosophy.


To the contrary, I want the truth of what happened.

So precisely how long should tax payers money be spent with NO RESULTS ?

1 YEAR ?

Or an unlimited time ?

Meanwhile other crimes get unsolved, due to diminishing resources.

Are you happy with that ?

Or is this case special above all others ?

This appears to be  the mind set of mccann supporters. %£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**#
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on July 02, 2015, 09:58:35 AM

To the contrary, I want the truth of what happened.

So precisely how long should tax payers money be spent with NO RESULTS ?

1 YEAR ?

Or an unlimited time ?

Meanwhile other crimes get unsolved, due to diminishing resources.

Are you happy with that ?

Or is this case special above all others ?

This appears to be  the mind set of mccann supporters. %£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**#

The case seems very special to you Stephen.   I haven't seen any objections from you about tax payers' cash now being allocated to Ben Needham's case - also AFAIK with no results thus far.  Are you happy with that?


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 02, 2015, 10:03:21 AM
The case seems very special to you Stephen.   I haven't seen any objections from you about tax payers' cash now being allocated to Ben Needham's case - also AFAIK with no results thus far.  Are you happy with that?

I'm not attached to the mccanns, metaphorically or otherwise, as some are.

It's about time money was spent on the Needhams case, though something tells me it's too late to achieve anything.

So to you as well, how long should this case continue with the mccanns with no results ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on July 02, 2015, 10:28:44 AM
I'm not attached to the mccanns, metaphorically or otherwise, as some are.

It's about time money was spent on the Needhams case, though something tells me it's too late to achieve anything.

So to you as well, how long should this case continue with the mccanns with no results ?

Amaral himself wanted the case reopened. He was going to send in information about a "missing" pink blanket as new evidence.

He got his wish... PT has reopened it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on July 02, 2015, 10:45:22 AM
Amaral himself wanted the case reopened. He was going to send in information about a "missing" pink blanket as new evidence.

He got his wish... PT has reopened it.

The "missing" pink blanket.

The one Kate gave GNR dog-handlers so they could (at least attempt to) prime their dogs with Madeleine's scent ...

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on July 02, 2015, 10:48:24 AM
I'm not attached to the mccanns, metaphorically or otherwise, as some are.

It's about time money was spent on the Needhams case, though something tells me it's too late to achieve anything.

So to you as well, how long should this case continue with the mccanns with no results ?

Your claim that people are 'attached' to the McCanns is as silly as if I claimed your interest in this case is only because you are 'attached' to and worship Amaral.    I'm sure you would think I was being very childish if I kept on making such an immature claim.  And you would be right.

The Ben Needham case is over 20 years old.   Ben was unsupervised when he disappeared.  There is no evidence of an abduction.  We only have the family's word for what happened.    Therefore it's a mystery to me why you would have such a different opinion on one case as opposed to the other.    Especially as Kerry Needham believes that Madeleine was abducted - surely you must have the same low opinion of her as you do of everyone who supports  the case for abduction?   

IMO it is precisely because of the UK investigation into Madeleine's disappearance that tax payers money has now been allocated to Ben's case.  (£700,000?).   If so then surely that is a good thing to have happened as a result of the present investigation?

I would be delighted if a full investigation into Ben Needhams disappearance was implemented, and just as in the McCann case - it wouldn't matter to me how much it cost or how long it took to come to a conclusion - whatever that conclusion proved to be.   

I am also convinced that children who are abducted in the future will have a much better chance of be found as a result of the vast experience gained  - and maybe even lessons learned -  by our police force during the course of their investigations into the McCann case.

So worth every penny IMO.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 02, 2015, 11:00:33 AM
Your claim that people are 'attached' to the McCanns is as silly as if I claimed your interest in this case is only because you are 'attached' to and worship Amaral.    I'm sure you would think I was being very childish if I kept on making such an immature claim.  And you would be right.

The Ben Needham case is over 20 years old.   Ben was unsupervised when he disappeared.  There is no evidence of an abduction.  We only have the family's word for what happened.    Therefore it's a mystery to me why you would have such a different opinion on one case as opposed to the other.    Especially as Kerry Needham believes that Madeleine was abducted - surely you must have the same low opinion of her as you do of everyone who supports  the case for abduction?   

IMO it is precisely because of the UK investigation into Madeleine's disappearance that tax payers money has now been allocated to Ben's case.  (£700,000?).   If so then surely that is a good thing to have happened as a result of the present investigation?

I would be delighted if a full investigation into Ben Needhams disappearance was implemented, and just as in the McCann case - it wouldn't matter to me how much it cost or how long it took to come to a conclusion - whatever that conclusion proved to be.   

I am also convinced that children who are abducted in the future will have a much better chance of be found as a result of the vast experience gained  - and maybe even lessons learned -  by our police force during the course of their investigations into the McCann case.

So worth every penny IMO.


They haven't found Madeleine.

So how much longer will this case and money be spent, with zero results ?

What lessons have SY learnt ?

As to people not being attached to the mccanns or Amaral, or devoutly following them, pull the other one. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on July 02, 2015, 11:01:24 AM
Your claim that people are 'attached' to the McCanns is as silly as if I claimed your interest in this case is only because you are 'attached' to and worship Amaral.    I'm sure you would think I was being very childish if I kept on making such an immature claim.  And you would be right.

The Ben Needham case is over 20 years old.   Ben was unsupervised when he disappeared.  There is no evidence of an abduction.  We only have the family's word for what happened.    Therefore it's a mystery to me why you would have such a different opinion on one case as opposed to the other.    Especially as Kerry Needham believes that Madeleine was abducted - surely you must have the same low opinion of her as you do of everyone who supports  the case for abduction?   













IMO it is precisely because of the UK investigation into Madeleine's disappearance that tax payers money has now been allocated to Ben's case.  (£700,000?).   If so then surely that is a good thing to have happened as a result of the present investigation?

I would be delighted if a full investigation into Ben Needhams disappearance was implemented, and just as in the McCann case - it wouldn't matter to me how much it cost or how long it took to come to a conclusion - whatever that conclusion proved to be.   

I am also convinced that children who are abducted in the future will have a much better chance of be found as a result of the vast experience gained  - and maybe even lessons learned -  by our police force during the course of their investigations into the McCann case.

So worth every penny IMO.


 8@??)(
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on July 02, 2015, 11:02:25 AM
The "missing" pink blanket.

The one Kate gave GNR dog-handlers so they could (at least attempt to) prime their dogs with Madeleine's scent ...

Indeed. And the reports were during his tenure. For some reason, he appears to have "missed" it....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on July 02, 2015, 11:11:31 AM
(snip)

I am also convinced that children who are abducted in the future will have a much better chance of be found as a result of the vast experience gained  - and maybe even lessons learned -  by our police force during the course of their investigations into the McCann case.

So worth every penny IMO.

I agree with your entire post, but I've just highlighted your last one.

IMO, the money spent isn't just about finding one missing child, nor even two or three.

Building cooperation, learning more about the obstacles posed by different practices, available resources, legal frameworks and all the rest of it could be crucial in any cross-border investigation.

Joint Investigation Teams (JITs) exist, but are rarely put into practice... the current ILOR process costs a fortune and wastes precious time.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on July 02, 2015, 11:31:37 AM
I wouldn't agree with dozens of staff twiddling their thumbs all day because they'd been assigned exclusively to a particular case in which there was no longer anything potentially relevant to investigate. That really would be a waste of taxpayers' money.

There is, however, nothing to indicate that that is what the situation actually is.

Obviously, a high input would be needed by people of varying skill sets to tackle the case at varying points... some of whom may have otherwise been made redundant (at what cost?) and some who were nearing retirement.

IMO, the amount of staff (or their time input) would need to wind down as work progresses, leads have been eliminated, etc., leaving less and less in need of investigation, but with a full trail that fewer trained staff could quickly pick up on if something new emerged.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 02, 2015, 02:41:01 PM

How long with no results will the investigation be allowed to continue with no results.

Cue the cleaning upchewing gum analogy. 8)--))
Forget the chewing gum analogy, you should see how much it costs to police the notting Hill Carnival for 3 days each year - you'll explode with rage!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on July 02, 2015, 03:19:40 PM
Forget the chewing gum analogy, you should see how much it costs to police the notting Hill Carnival for 3 days each year - you'll explode with rage!

I've seen the allegation of £34m per year for the Notting Hill Carnival on blogs, but where was that figure sourced?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 02, 2015, 04:01:10 PM
I've seen the allegation of £34m per year for the Notting Hill Carnival on blogs, but where was that figure sourced?
No idea - it's usually around the £6-8m mark I believe, though I watched a programme on the Met a few weeks ago and they quoted £11m if I recall correctly.  Whatever it is, it's a lot! 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 02, 2015, 04:30:13 PM
I've seen the allegation of £34m per year for the Notting Hill Carnival on blogs, but where was that figure sourced?

Not from the cops !
The declared costs seem to be as Alf has posted.
The document by ACPO that deals with payment for police services has the rather droll title "Paying the Bill"  &%+((£
(Notting Hill is free).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on July 02, 2015, 04:32:03 PM
No idea - it's usually around the £6-8m mark I believe, though I watched a programme on the Met a few weeks ago and they quoted £11m if I recall correctly.  Whatever it is, it's a lot!

5.6 Million.

And that's every year.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/jun/01/nottinghillcarnival2001.nottinghillcarnival2002

But obviously that must take priority over a missing little girl ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 02, 2015, 05:32:08 PM
5.6 Million.

And that's every year.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/jun/01/nottinghillcarnival2001.nottinghillcarnival2002

But obviously that must take priority over a missing little girl ....

and other missing people ?

Or is Madeleine new on a pedestal for you?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on July 02, 2015, 05:34:02 PM
The Nottinghill Carnival isn't the only one ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 02, 2015, 05:40:33 PM
and other missing people ?

Or is Madeley new on a pedestal for you?
Richard? &%+((£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 02, 2015, 06:12:18 PM
Richard? &%+((£

No, it was predictive text. Amended.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 02, 2015, 06:14:51 PM
The Nottinghill Carnival isn't the only one ...

Wow.  8((()*/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on July 02, 2015, 06:33:56 PM
We appear to be slipping OFF TOPIC.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on July 02, 2015, 06:44:41 PM
So is there independent confirmation that Amaral has been granted leave to appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on July 02, 2015, 06:46:00 PM
So is there independent confirmation that Amaral has been granted leave to appeal?


Why does this subject so obsess you ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on July 02, 2015, 06:49:25 PM
So is there independent confirmation that Amaral has been granted leave to appeal?

By whom?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2015, 07:03:34 PM
So is there independent confirmation that Amaral has been granted leave to appeal?

none as yet it seems...we have just have amaral submitting the request to appeal but no confirmation as to whether it has been granted
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 02, 2015, 07:16:16 PM
So is there independent confirmation that Amaral has been granted leave to appeal?

2 weeks ago this was posted here.

http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/update-appeal-filed.html
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2015, 07:19:31 PM
2 weeks ago this was posted here.

http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/update-appeal-filed.html

the problem is you don't seem to understand...amaral has been granted leave to appeal....he now has to wait to see if the court accepts he has grounds to appeal
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 02, 2015, 07:21:35 PM
the problem is you don't seem to understand...amaral has been granted leave to appeal....he now has to wait to see if the court accepts he has grounds to appeal

Don't worry your little head over that dave.

He will have his appeal. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2015, 07:22:17 PM
Don't worry your little head over that dave.

He will have his appeal. 8((()*/

I don't give a toss either way
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 02, 2015, 07:25:26 PM
the problem is you don't seem to understand...amaral has been granted leave to appeal....he now has to wait to see if the court accepts he has grounds to appeal

If he has been granted leave to appeal, then I think your comment should be directed at ferryman # post 2625...and yours in response

So who is it who doesn't understand?
 8((()*/


PS Even last night Ferryman still did not accept that Amaral has appealed

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6269.msg252090#msg252090

Post #2582
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 02, 2015, 07:26:54 PM
I don't give a toss either way

If you didn't 'care', you wouldn't post about it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 02, 2015, 07:42:39 PM
I don't give a toss either way

Yes you do. Your prediction was that he was "toast", that he deserves everything he gets, that you hope he is homeless and destitute and so forth. Your cruelty has been noted, especially as regards the apparent suicide of Brenda Leyland, that she deserved to be door stepped by a multinational media company , that her killing herself didn't bother you at all etc , she deserved all she got, and you have the gall to ask others if they are Nazis. So laughable and so very sad.

So far your prediction re Amaral has not been proven right, so that's why you do give a "toss"
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on July 02, 2015, 07:49:21 PM
Please leave personal comments and insults out of your posts. Thank you
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on July 02, 2015, 07:54:16 PM
He has appealed. As to the perpetrators, the officials say they don't know what the crime is for a start, let alone have any serious suspects, You're whistling in the wind. Yup, the  appeal will go ahead and moreover, the case has nothing whatsoever to do with any current investigation, nothing at all.

Plain barking.

Amaral wrote a book saying theMcCannsdunit, covered up their crime and launched a fraudulent "fund" in their (dead) daughter's name.

The present investigation is not remotely considering the McCanns or any of their friends.

The prosecutors' report from the shelved enquiry makes plain that the McCanns are not guilty of any crime.

Where does Amaral turn?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 02, 2015, 07:54:33 PM
Yes you do. Your prediction was that he was "toast", that he deserves everything he gets, that you hope he is homeless and destitute and so forth. Your cruelty has been noted, especially as regards the apparent suicide of Brenda Leyland, that she deserved to be door stepped by a multinational media company , that her killing herself didn't bother you at all etc , she deserved all she got, and you have the gall to ask others if they are Nazis. So laughable and so very sad.

So far your prediction re Amaral has not been proven right, so that's why you do give a "toss"


 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 02, 2015, 07:55:10 PM
Yes you do. Your prediction was that he was "toast", that he deserves everything he gets, that you hope he is homeless and destitute and so forth. Your cruelty has been noted, especially as regards the apparent suicide of Brenda Leyland, that she deserved to be door stepped by a multinational media company , that her killing herself didn't bother you at all etc , she deserved all she got, and you have the gall to ask others if they are Nazis. So laughable and so very sad.

So far your prediction re Amaral has not been proven right, so that's why you do give a "toss"
To be fair Davel predicted Amaral would lose the court case and he was right.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 02, 2015, 07:55:26 PM
Plain barking.

Amaral wrote a book saying theMcCannsdunit, covered up their crime and launched a fraudulent "fund" in their (dead) daughter's name.

The present investigation is not remotely considering the McCanns or any of their friends.

The prosecutors' report from the shelved enquiry makes plain that the McCanns are not guilty of any crime.

Where does Amaral turn?

Like I said earlier.

Wait and see.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 02, 2015, 07:57:07 PM
To be fair Davel predicted Amaral would lose the court case and he was right.

and pray tell which parts of the case did the mccanns fail to prove ?

MEANWHILE, we await the appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 02, 2015, 08:00:02 PM
and pray tell which parts of the case did the mccanns fail to prove ?

MEANWHILE, we await the appeal.
Irrelevant to the point I was making re: Davel's accuracy in predicting the result of the trial.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 02, 2015, 08:02:40 PM
Irrelevant to the point I was making re: Davel's accuracy in predicting the result of the trial.

They 'won' on one point, not the rest.

Now we await the appeal.

Meanwhile alfred, just remind me of how much Money they have received from Amaral. @)(++(*

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2015, 08:08:44 PM
They 'won' on one point, not the rest.

Now we await the appeal.

Meanwhile alfred, just remind me of how much Money they have received from Amaral. @)(++(*

you may be laughing but amaral isn't...he lives in penury with no access to his own money......he has told us how this case has destroyed his life...the case may go on for many years...I doubt if the mccanns are now that  bothered...it is amaral who is suffering
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 02, 2015, 08:09:06 PM
They 'won' on one point, not the rest.

Now we await the appeal.

Meanwhile alfred, just remind me of how much Money they have received from Amaral. @)(++(*
The McCanns won the trial, I know it's hard for you to acknowledge or accept but it's a fact, one predicted by Davel.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2015, 08:13:39 PM
Yes you do. Your prediction was that he was "toast", that he deserves everything he gets, that you hope he is homeless and destitute and so forth. Your cruelty has been noted, especially as regards the apparent suicide of Brenda Leyland, that she deserved to be door stepped by a multinational media company , that her killing herself didn't bother you at all etc , she deserved all she got, and you have the gall to ask others if they are Nazis. So laughable and so very sad.

So far your prediction re Amaral has not been proven right, so that's why you do give a "toss"

any chance you could actually stick to the truth...and not tell lies re what I have said...not really is there
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 02, 2015, 08:20:26 PM
The McCanns won the trial, I know it's hard for you to acknowledge or accept but it's a fact, one predicted by Davel.

How much money have the mccanns got from Amaral ?

I can help with the answer. @)(++(*

They lost key elements of the trial, or have you conveniently forgotten that ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 02, 2015, 08:20:57 PM
Plain barking.

Amaral wrote a book saying theMcCannsdunit, covered up their crime and launched a fraudulent "fund" in their (dead) daughter's name.

The present investigation is not remotely considering the McCanns or any of their friends.

The prosecutors' report from the shelved enquiry makes plain that the McCanns are not guilty of any crime.

Where does Amaral turn?

Wrong as usual, the current trial has zilch to do with the current so called SY investigation
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on July 02, 2015, 08:49:04 PM
The McCanns sued Amaral for damage to themselves, the twins and Madeleine. The award was made to the two of them. The other three family members got nothing. The search was not damaged. The truthfulness of the book wasn't considered, only insofar as most of the facts in the book were also in the files. They asked for 1.2 million euros and got 500,000. Win 40% lose 60%.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2015, 08:54:27 PM
The McCanns sued Amaral for damage to themselves, the twins and Madeleine. The award was made to the two of them. The other three family members got nothing. The search was not damaged. The truthfulness of the book wasn't considered, only insofar as most of the facts in the book were also in the files. They asked for 1.2 million euros and got 500,000. Win 40% lose 60%.

So by your logic amaral must be over the moon.....he isn't
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 02, 2015, 08:57:07 PM
So by your logic amaral must be over the moon.....he isn't

You're funny I must give you that
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on July 02, 2015, 09:11:01 PM
Wrong as usual, the current trial has zilch to do with the current so called SY investigation

The direction of the present enquiry underlines and emphasises that the McCanns are innocent.

Amaral's book, documentary and interviews all say the opposite.

How can that be irrelevant?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 02, 2015, 09:15:56 PM
The direction of the present enquiry underlines and emphasises that the McCanns are innocent.

Amaral's book, documentary and interviews all say the opposite.

How can that be irrelevant?

Crime not known ferryman.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 02, 2015, 09:20:08 PM
The direction of the present enquiry underlines and emphasises that the McCanns are innocent.

Amaral's book, documentary and interviews all say the opposite.

How can that be irrelevant?

It's irrelevant because of timing...Amaral's book was written in 2008
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on July 02, 2015, 09:23:32 PM
So by your logic amaral must be over the moon.....he isn't

I wasn't dealing with Amaral's opinions or feelings, I was pointing out to you that the McCanns didn't get what they wanted, they got some of it and lost more than they won.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 02, 2015, 09:24:16 PM
How much money have the mccanns got from Amaral ?

I can help with the answer. @)(++(*

They lost key elements of the trial, or have you conveniently forgotten that ?
They won and were awarded unprecedented damages.  I am well aware that Amaral is appealing the cout's decion, of course if the McCanns hadn't won he would have no need to appeal would he?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 02, 2015, 09:38:23 PM
They won and were awarded unprecedented damages.  I am well aware that Amaral is appealing the cout's decion, of course if the McCanns hadn't won he would have no need to appeal would he?

he won his last appeal, the Mccanns lost,, probably will win this one too, then for Davelhe won't be "toast"  lol

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 02, 2015, 09:49:42 PM
They won and were awarded unprecedented damages.  I am well aware that Amaral is appealing the cout's decion, of course if the McCanns hadn't won he would have no need to appeal would he?

How much money have the mccanns received directly as a result of this 'victory'  ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 02, 2015, 10:03:38 PM
he won his last appeal, the Mccanns lost,, probably will win this one too, then for Davelhe won't be "toast"  lol
if you say so dear.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on July 02, 2015, 10:17:05 PM
They won and were awarded unprecedented damages.  I am well aware that Amaral is appealing the cout's decion, of course if the McCanns hadn't won he would have no need to appeal would he?

But "it wasn't about the money".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 02, 2015, 10:19:21 PM
How much money have the mccanns received directly as a result of this 'victory'  ?
And how much and for how long has amaral been denied access to his own money....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 02, 2015, 10:20:18 PM
if you say so dear.

it's not my say so it's a fact that the Mccanns lost their "first round"

you have no idea or knowledge to say they won't lose the other end
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 02, 2015, 10:21:46 PM
But "it wasn't about the money".

They may donate any real proceeds to charity, no?

maybe I read an article wrong there
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 02, 2015, 10:23:04 PM
it's not my say so it's a fact that the Mccanns lost their "first round"

you have no idea or knowledge to say they won't lose the other end
The McCanns won against Amaral, that's a fact.  Whether Amaral succeeds in overturning the court judgement remainsnto be seen, hold your crowing for a bit, you may end up looking even more foolish than usual.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 02, 2015, 10:24:16 PM
And how much and for how long has amaral been denied access to his own money....

Despicable isn't it what the Mccanns have done to him, nothing but a vengeful agenda, no morals, no point, no result, negative to the extreme of them
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 02, 2015, 10:36:05 PM
The McCanns won against Amaral, that's a fact.  Whether Amaral succeeds in overturning the court judgement remainsnto be seen, hold your crowing for a bit, you may end up looking even more foolish than usual.

there is no point in your backtracking, the ONLY salient point (s) here is that the Mccanns have a record of losing in "reality"

Ie twice.

it is fair to say the McCann have NEVER won any action in any court, wonder why that is? Cos their actions were stupid I guess
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 02, 2015, 10:39:41 PM
there is no point in your backtracking, the ONLY salient point (s) here is that the Mccanns have a record of losing in "reality"

Ie twice

get with the programme

it is fair to say the McCann have NEVER won any action in any court, wonder why that is? Cos their actions were stupid I guess
It's impossible to have a ratioanl discussion with someone who sees everything in reverse.  The McCanns won in court against Amaral, it was reported in the press in this country and Portugal, you may not believe or accept it, that's your problem not mine.  Goodbye.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 02, 2015, 10:48:13 PM
It's impossible to have a ratioanl discussion with someone who sees everything in reverse.  The McCanns won in court against Amaral, it was reported in the press in this country and Portugal, you may not believe or accept it, that's your problem not mine.  Goodbye.

Not sure what your problem is here,no one is denying they won, but there isanappeal, so it's possible they will be in the position of "didn't win" in the end, sheesh lol
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 02, 2015, 10:58:43 PM
Not sure what your problem is here,no one is denying they won, but there isanappeal, so it's possible they will be in the position of "didn't win" in the end, sheesh lol

your words: "it is fair to say the McCann have NEVER won any action in any court" - no one but you is denying they won!

eta: sheesh lol
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on July 02, 2015, 11:03:30 PM
Not sure what your problem is here,no one is denying they won, but there isanappeal, so it's possible they will be in the position of "didn't win" in the end, sheesh lol
As soon as the judge decides whether the appeal is allowed to proceed, we will know immediately IMO.
If the judge says "yes". Mr Amaral will tell us.
If the judge says "no", both Mr Amaral and his opponent will tell us.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 02, 2015, 11:31:50 PM
As soon as the judge decides whether the appeal is allowed to proceed, we will know immediately IMO.
If the judge says "yes". Mr Amaral will tell us.
If the judge says "no", both Mr Amaral and his opponent will tell us.
If the judge says no to the appeal I doubt we'll hear anything at all, not directly from either party anyway.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 02, 2015, 11:33:39 PM
If the judge says no to the appeal I doubt we'll hear anything at all, not directly from either party anyway.

Don't be so silly
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 02, 2015, 11:36:42 PM
Don't be so silly
I'm not being silly.  If the judge says no to the appeal it changes nothing as far as the McCanns are concerned, and is Amaral  really going to want to publicly admit such a humiliating outcome?  I doubt it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 02, 2015, 11:54:50 PM
Don't be so silly

An d get over it Amaral will win his appeal even if some of your ilk don't even accept he has lodged one  lolol mad of them or what
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on July 03, 2015, 05:41:28 AM
If the judge says no to the appeal I doubt we'll hear anything at all, not directly from either party anyway.

I think I've seen it explained like this. The judge considers the appeal and either changes her decision or doesn't. If she doesn't change her decision the appeal goes to the next court up.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 03, 2015, 08:04:44 AM
Don't be so silly

An d get over it Amaral will win his appeal even if some of your ilk don't even accept he has lodged one  lolol mad of them or what
Predicting outcomes in this case is not wise as we have repeatedly seen.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on July 03, 2015, 08:38:48 AM
For me the jury is still out on whether Amaral has made an appeal ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on July 03, 2015, 08:47:34 AM
For me the jury is still out on whether Amaral has made an appeal ....

I think he may well have done as a matter of course;  whether it is allowed or not may be more newsworthy and will eventually get some attention from the Portuguese press.

I am finding the silence from Mr Amaral or his friends deafening.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 03, 2015, 08:53:35 AM
I think he may well have done as a matter of course;  whether it is allowed or not may be more newsworthy and will eventually get some attention from the Portuguese press.

I am finding the silence from Mr Amaral or his friends deafening.

Of course you are.

Wait and see. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on July 03, 2015, 09:21:31 AM
I think he may well have done as a matter of course;  whether it is allowed or not may be more newsworthy and will eventually get some attention from the Portuguese press.

I am finding the silence from Mr Amaral or his friends deafening.

It doesn't have to be allowed, it's been filed. The judge then decides whether she agrees. If she does she changes her ruling. If she doesn't she passes it up to the next highest court. If that court agrees with the first judge the ruling stands and the process ends. If that court disagrees with the first judge the case then goes to the highest court and they decide. Clear? What exactly do you expect them to say? It's now a waiting game.....patience is a virtue.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on July 03, 2015, 09:35:14 AM
As soon as the judge decides whether the appeal is allowed to proceed, we will know immediately IMO.
If the judge says "yes". Mr Amaral will tell us.
If the judge says "no", both Mr Amaral and his opponent will tell us.

The judge in the civil court cannot stop the appeal from proceeding. If she does not accepts the argument in his appeal, she maintains her decision and then she sends his appeal to the Tribunal da Relação. The judge cannot bin the appeal and stop it from going to a higher court.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on July 03, 2015, 09:41:58 AM
The judge in the civil court cannot stop the appeal from proceeding. If she does not accepts the argument in his appeal, she maintains her decision and then she sends his appeal to the Tribunal da Relação. The judge cannot bin the appeal and stop it from going to a higher court.

Thank you for clarifying this issue Montclair.  Portuguese Law certainly continues to challenge most of us as this case proceeds to the next round.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 03, 2015, 09:42:50 AM
Thank you for clarifying this issue Montclair.  Portuguese Law certainly continues to challenge most of us as this case proceeds to the next round.

Seconded.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2015, 10:11:22 AM
so this could drag on for years....meanwhile the book is banned and amaral has no money...that'll do for now
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 03, 2015, 10:15:49 AM
so this could drag on for years....meanwhile the book is banned and amaral has no money...that'll do for now

and the mccanns have not got any money from him, only ongoing legal bills.

That will do for now.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on July 03, 2015, 10:17:36 AM
Despicable isn't it what the Mccanns have done to him, nothing but a vengeful agenda, no morals, no point, no result, negative to the extreme of them

So, if someone wrote a book accusing you of drugging your child,   disposing of her body and lying to the police you would be quite happy to let that book containing all of that circulate all around the world,   really?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on July 03, 2015, 10:19:11 AM
and the mccanns have not got any money from him, only ongoing legal bills.

That will do for now.

Na na na na naaa.     They have said they would put the money into Madeleine's fund,  so the money would go towards the search for Madeleine,  not in their pockets.    If the fund isn't needed the money will go to the Missing People charity.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 03, 2015, 10:20:38 AM
Na na na na naaa.     They have said they would put the money into Madeleine's fund,  so the money would go towards the search for Madeleine,  not in their pockets.    If the fund isn't needed the money will go to the Missing People charity.

That's original.

Perhaps you should tell dave that.  8)--))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 03, 2015, 10:22:10 AM
Na na na na naaa.     They have said they would put the money into Madeleine's fund,  so the money would go towards the search for Madeleine,  not in their pockets.    If the fund isn't needed the money will go to the Missing People charity.

and of course the money isn't needed.

Have you heard of the SY investigation ? 8)-)))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on July 03, 2015, 10:22:30 AM
That's original.

Perhaps you should tell dave that.  8)--))

I am sure he has read what the McCann's have said.   
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2015, 10:24:20 AM
I am sure he has read what the McCann's have said.   

I have
Seems Stephen hasnt
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on July 03, 2015, 10:27:55 AM
and the mccanns have not got any money from him, only ongoing legal bills.

That will do for now.

https://madeleinemccannthetruth.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/24-horas-amaral-debts.pdf

Perhaps the McCanns are not the only ones standing in the queue waiting for debts to be paid.  Mr Amaral seems to have quite a record for such ... and from long before the McCann family made their ill fated decision to set foot in Portugal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 03, 2015, 10:34:24 AM
https://madeleinemccannthetruth.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/24-horas-amaral-debts.pdf

Perhaps the McCanns are not the only ones standing in the queue waiting for debts to be paid.  Mr Amaral seems to have quite a record for such ... and from long before the McCann family made their ill fated decision to set foot in Portugal.

Ill fated decision ???

They are responsible for what they failed to do, not Amaral.

As to his other debts, they would have to be agreement among his creditors.

Is he bankrupt ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 03, 2015, 10:47:32 AM
I have
Seems Stephen hasnt

Sorry to disappoint. 8)--))

NOW WHAT WERE YOU CALLING POLICE WHO DIDN'T ACHIEVE ANYTHING ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 03, 2015, 11:01:17 AM
So, if someone wrote a book accusing you of drugging your child,   disposing of her body and lying to the police you would be quite happy to let that book containing all of that circulate all around the world,   really?
Of course she would!  Meanwhile if you dare to call a couple of policemen in Portugal "Tweedle Dee and Tweedledum" well that's simply beyond the pale!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 03, 2015, 11:17:02 AM
Na na na na naaa.     They have said they would put the money into Madeleine's fund,  so the money would go towards the search for Madeleine,  not in their pockets.    If the fund isn't needed the money will go to the Missing People charity.

Would you care to show us in the companies articles of association where that is stipulated ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on July 03, 2015, 12:09:18 PM
Ill fated decision ???

They are responsible for what they failed to do, not Amaral.

As to his other debts, they would have to be agreement among his creditors.

Is he bankrupt ?

Mr Amaral bears full responsibility for the straightened financial position he finds himself in today and in the past;  with perhaps the brief period when he made his fortune from the proceeds of the book of lies which perhaps marks his sole success concerning the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance.

The question remains should a person who was in such debt and who was made an arguido in the case of the alleged torture of the mother of a missing child the day after Madeleine's disappearance have had anything whatsoever to do with Madeleine's case?
I think the judge's ruling is an indication of her learned opinion on the matter.

Now it remains to be seen what the appeal court judges decide if it even reaches that stage.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on July 03, 2015, 12:23:12 PM
Would you care to show us in the companies articles of association where that is stipulated ?

Would we be having this conversation if "friends of the McCanns" had opened a bank account and advertised ...

Therefore, his friends decided to open a private bank account, where funds would be kept to pay, whenever necessary and whenever possible, expenses that were presented by Mr Amaral’s lawyer. Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral was born out of solidarity and friendship.

The trial is ongoing, since 2009, nothing has changed, pending final judgment. We continue to accept your donations only into this one bank account and we continue to meet only legal expenses out of that very same account.

If any funds are left unused, they will be donated to a Portuguese children’s charity, according to Gonçalo Amaral’s wishes.

No controversy ... no discussion ... and absolutely no transparency.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 03, 2015, 12:47:03 PM
Would we be having this conversation if "friends of the McCanns" had opened a bank account and advertised ...

Therefore, his friends decided to open a private bank account, where funds would be kept to pay, whenever necessary and whenever possible, expenses that were presented by Mr Amaral’s lawyer. Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral was born out of solidarity and friendship.

The trial is ongoing, since 2009, nothing has changed, pending final judgment. We continue to accept your donations only into this one bank account and we continue to meet only legal expenses out of that very same account.

If any funds are left unused, they will be donated to a Portuguese children’s charity, according to Gonçalo Amaral’s wishes.

No controversy ... no discussion ... and absolutely no transparency.

They didn't do that so we are having this conversation. Or rather I was with another poster.
Why do you have difficulty in accepting that "The Fund" can only do what the company's articles of association allow it to do? Do you have this same problem with all limited companies or just the one ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on July 03, 2015, 12:48:36 PM
Would you care to show us in the companies articles of association where that is stipulated ?

I don't know if it is stipulated in the companies articles of association Alice,   maybe you could write to them and find out.     I would imagine it would come into discussion if and when Madeleine is found.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on July 03, 2015, 01:25:33 PM
They didn't do that so we are having this conversation. Or rather I was with another poster.
Why do you have difficulty in accepting that "The Fund" can only do what the company's articles of association allow it to do? Do you have this same problem with all limited companies or just the one ?

             Sorry, I didn't realise your conversation was intended to be exclusive.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 03, 2015, 02:54:51 PM
I don't know if it is stipulated in the companies articles of association Alice,   maybe you could write to them and find out.     I would imagine it would come into discussion if and when Madeleine is found.

All the relevant documentation is available from Companies House.
The section relevant to our discussion reads:
Objects
2B. The objects of the Foundation are:
2B.1.1 To secure the safe return to her family of Madeleine McCann who was abducted in Praia da Luz, Portugal on Thursday 3rd May 2007; and
2B.1.2 To procure that Madeleine's abduction is thoroughly investigated and that her abductors, as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them, are identified and brought to Justice.
2B.2 If the above objects are fulfilled then the objects of the Foundation shall be to pursue such purposes in similar cases arising in the United Kingdom, Portugal or elsewhere.

Winding up
2F. If any property remains after the Foundation has been wound up or dissolved and the debts and liabilities have been satisfied it may not be paid to or distributed among the members of the Foundation, but must be given to some other institution or institutions with similar objects. The institution or institutions to benefit shall be chosen by the Directors at or before the time of winding up or dissolution.

That seems perfectly reasonable to me but it does not say surplus funds will be given to Missing Children.
The caveat of if on 2B.2 and 2F should be noted.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on July 03, 2015, 02:58:38 PM
As 2B1.1  might never be fulfilled, it is  possible that no charity will benefit.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on July 03, 2015, 03:45:26 PM
So, if someone wrote a book accusing you of drugging your child,   disposing of her body and lying to the police you would be quite happy to let that book containing all of that circulate all around the world,   really?

Well according to the judge's decision, anyone else could have written the same book and there would have been no problem.  She decided that Gonçalo Amaral was not allowed to do so because he was a retired policeman.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on July 03, 2015, 04:07:22 PM
Well according to the judge's decision, anyone else could have written the same book and there would have been no problem.  She decided that Gonçalo Amaral was not allowed to do so because he was a retired policeman.

Not even ANY retired policeman, but one who had kudos by virtue of having been its coordinator for the first few months and who used that former status to boost his credibility and thus better sell his theory.

His pal Cristovão did the same after he'd "resigned" from active PJ service... but the Ciprianos had been convicted, were dirt poor, and were unlikely to have been able to contest the contents of that book, even if they'd been aware of its existence.

To this day, some people believe that the police hadn't been contacted until two days after her disappearance. That's untrue. But then, according to the summary in English of his book, her well-known beating took place in prison. If that had been the case, why invent the slippery staircase saga?

A fact that has not certainly not often been publicised is that he was subject to PJ disciplinary action way before the torture case came to trial. No one mentions that... why not?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on July 03, 2015, 04:11:40 PM
Well according to the judge's decision, anyone else could have written the same book and there would have been no problem.  She decided that Gonçalo Amaral was not allowed to do so because he was a retired policeman.


I'm not sure whether a journalist / media editor would have had the case dismissed, either. PT media law does have points on limits.




Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on July 03, 2015, 04:18:23 PM
Well according to the judge's decision, anyone else could have written the same book and there would have been no problem.  She decided that Gonçalo Amaral was not allowed to do so because he was a retired policeman.

If the judiciary of your country would allow most people to write an account of distortion, disinformation and lies (as Amaral did!) and get away with it that reflects extreme discredit on the judiciary of your country.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on July 03, 2015, 04:30:55 PM
Or simply a different view on law
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on July 03, 2015, 04:44:08 PM
Or simply a different view on law

Well, arguments did appear to arrive at a stalemate until towards the end of the arguments.

What's not clear is whether other arguments / legislation may have been used had the case been different.

Perhaps, in general terms, it's perfectly ok for your neighbour to accuse you of stealing and microwaving your neighbours' babies for breakfast in Portugal. With the fear of potential vigilante action in the middle of the night for those who assumed that it was true.

You wouldn't mind, would you?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 03, 2015, 05:57:17 PM
Well, arguments did appear to arrive at a stalemate until towards the end of the arguments.

What's not clear is whether other arguments / legislation may have been used had the case been different.

Perhaps, in general terms, it's perfectly ok for your neighbour to accuse you of stealing and microwaving your neighbours' babies for breakfast in Portugal. With the fear of potential vigilante action in the middle of the night for those who assumed that it was true.

You wouldn't mind, would you?

Whilst maybe not at the scale of the larger than life image you paint it happened in Bristol.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 03, 2015, 08:36:02 PM
So, if someone wrote a book accusing you of drugging your child,   disposing of her body and lying to the police you would be quite happy to let that book containing all of that circulate all around the world,   really?

The Mccanns left it doing exactly that for almost a year before they launched their very expensive lawsuit. By then sales had dried up.

 &%+((£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 03, 2015, 09:02:45 PM
For Ferryman



http://portugalresident.com/maddie-cop-launches-appeal-against-mccann’s-record-damages-‘win’-of-€500000

independent enough for you?

 &%54%

PS You will need to highlight the whole link and then paste in your browser. For some reason it is not c & p'ing in full here
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on July 04, 2015, 07:03:07 AM
For Ferryman



http://portugalresident.com/maddie-cop-launches-appeal-against-mccann’s-record-damages-‘win’-of-€500000

independent enough for you?

 &%54%

PS You will need to highlight the whole link and then paste in your browser. For some reason it is not c & p'ing in full here

Natasha Donn?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 04, 2015, 02:01:15 PM
Natasha Donn?

What?

You have been given three pieces of evidence now that an appeal has been lodged, about tme you apologised and accepted the fact that yes, it has been,then we can all move on
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on July 04, 2015, 02:47:21 PM
What?

You have been given three pieces of evidence now that an appeal has been lodged, about tme you apologised and accepted the fact that yes, it has been,then we can all move on

I repeat

Natasha Donn???  !

I want proper evidence Amaral has been granted leave to appeal.

To put flesh on my objection, Natasha Donn lends credence to the work of phoney criminal "profiler" Pat Brown:

http://www.jornal123.com/en/Articles/2-1520/American_Criminal_Profiler_probes_McCann_mystery
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on July 04, 2015, 05:53:21 PM
I repeat

Natasha Donn???  !

I want proper evidence Amaral has been granted leave to appeal.

To put flesh on my objection, Natasha Donn lends credence to the work of phoney criminal "profiler" Pat Brown:

http://www.jornal123.com/en/Articles/2-1520/American_Criminal_Profiler_probes_McCann_mystery

Perhaps a nice British newspaper can convince you;

Mr Amaral’s legal team have leave to appeal the award.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/11568725/Madeleine-McCanns-parents-awarded-357k-in-Portuguese-libel-case.html
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 04, 2015, 05:59:24 PM
Perhaps a nice British newspaper can convince you;

Mr Amaral’s legal team have leave to appeal the award.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/11568725/Madeleine-McCanns-parents-awarded-357k-in-Portuguese-libel-case.html

I am sure ferryman can now look forward to the next stage.

 @)(++(*@)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on July 04, 2015, 06:08:39 PM
I am sure ferryman can now look forward to the next stage.

 @)(++(*@)(++(*

I just hope he remembers that the question has been answered because I'm pretty sure it's been answered previously on the thread.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on July 04, 2015, 06:19:38 PM
Perhaps a nice British newspaper can convince you;

Mr Amaral’s legal team have leave to appeal the award.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/11568725/Madeleine-McCanns-parents-awarded-357k-in-Portuguese-libel-case.html

The Daily Telegraph report, written hard on the heels of the McCanns' first-round victory, merely confirms that Amaral had the option of lodging an appeal.

It doesn't actually say that he had and, indeed, that close to conclusion of the first round he (then!) couldn't have.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 04, 2015, 08:15:22 PM
The Daily Telegraph report, written hard on the heels of the McCanns' first-round victory, merely confirms that Amaral had the option of lodging an appeal.

It doesn't actually say that he had and, indeed, that close to conclusion of the first round he (then!) couldn't have.

Does that mean, pages later, you still don't accept that one has been filed?

Does it mean you think the court docket is a forgery, that both Amaral and the said Portugal Resident journalist are both lying? You could include the blogger Astro in that list as well if you like. I really cannot understand where you are coming from on this issue.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on July 04, 2015, 09:38:34 PM
Does that mean, pages later, you still don't accept that one has been filed?

Does it mean you think the court docket is a forgery, that both Amaral and the said Portugal Resident journalist are both lying? You could include the blogger Astro in that list as well if you like. I really cannot understand where you are coming from on this issue.

You know, I know, we all know the appeal has been filed. I don't intend to take part in this foolish discussion any more.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2015, 07:22:36 AM
You know, I know, we all know the appeal has been filed. I don't intend to take part in this foolish discussion any more.

There is no appeal yet...amaral has filed an application citing his grounds. The court will then decide an appeal is allowed
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 05, 2015, 07:46:16 AM
There is no appeal yet...amaral has filed an application citing his grounds. The court will then decide an appeal is allowed


Wrong.

There will be an appeal.

Try comprehending what you have read on here.

It has been explained.



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2015, 08:12:22 AM

Wrong.

There will be an appeal.

Try comprehending what you have read on here.

It has been explained.

If he has grounds...there will be an appeal
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 05, 2015, 08:16:38 AM
If he has grounds...there will be an appeal

Read again.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2015, 08:21:38 AM
Read again.

I don't need to read anything..it's basic law
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 05, 2015, 08:23:00 AM
I don't need to read anything..it's basic law

Read what Montclair said.

it's all there.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on July 05, 2015, 08:52:59 AM
Does anyone know what happened when Amaral appealed against his criminal conviction re Leonor Cipriano? 

Was that accepted by the Judge at the first attempt, or did he have to go to a higher court to get the appeal heard?  Was it actually heard at all - or was it not allowed to be heard?    All I know is that it failed - whether it failed to be heard or was heard and then thrown out -  I don't know.

Anyone got any info on this?   It might give us a clue as to how these things work in practise - although I realise  that his previous failed appeal was in a Criminal court and so might not apply to this appeal.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2015, 09:33:54 AM
Does anyone know what happened when Amaral appealed against his criminal conviction re Leonor Cipriano? 

Was that accepted by the Judge at the first attempt, or did he have to go to a higher court to get the appeal heard?  Was it actually heard at all - or was it not allowed to be heard?    All I know is that it failed - whether it failed to be heard or was heard and then thrown out -  I don't know.

Anyone got any info on this?   It might give us a clue as to how these things work in practise - although I realise  that his previous failed appeal was in a Criminal court and so might not apply to this appeal.


Im sure Montclair will know all the details.... Or not
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on July 05, 2015, 09:45:09 AM
Does anyone know what happened when Amaral appealed against his criminal conviction re Leonor Cipriano? 

Was that accepted by the Judge at the first attempt, or did he have to go to a higher court to get the appeal heard?  Was it actually heard at all - or was it not allowed to be heard?    All I know is that it failed - whether it failed to be heard or was heard and then thrown out -  I don't know.

Anyone got any info on this?   It might give us a clue as to how these things work in practise - although I realise  that his previous failed appeal was in a Criminal court and so might not apply to this appeal.

It seems that the appeal went through, but the court upheld the ruling.


18 March 2011

The Appellate Court of Évora did not approve the appeals of the two Judiciary Police officers who were convicted in Leonor Cipriano’s trial and decided to maintain the ruling made at the court of first instance...

https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/10/31/evoras-court-upheld-the-pj-officers-convictions/


Joana Case: Court keeps sentences on former pj inspectors

The Évora Court refuted the existence of "unconstitutionality and nullity" in judgment which upheld the conviction of former inspectors of the Judicial Police (PJ) in the case of attacks on Leonor Cipriano, Joana's mother of child missing in the Algarve in 2004.

On 18 March this year, the Court of Appeal upheld the conviction of former PJ inspector Gonçalo Amaral and António Nunes Cardoso, with suspended sentences, the Court of Faro in 2009, but the latter former agent requested "clarification and reform of judgment. "

According to judicial sources, the Évora Court understood that "lacks reason," the application of António Nunes Cardoso, sentenced to two years and three months imprisonment with suspended sentence for the crime of document forgery. Understand yet the appellate court that the appeal of Évora "surpasses fully the scope allowed to a request for clarification or adduction of errors, oversights, or obscurities nonentities."

In the decision of the resources of the former inspectors, reported on 18 March 2011, the Court / Relation also maintained the sentence of one year and six months in prison for the crime of making false allegations, suspended on probation, applied to Gonçalo Amaral, former coordinator of the Criminal Investigation Department in Portimão.

http://www.dn.pt/inicio/portugal/interior.aspx?content_id=1882361&page=-1&success=1
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on July 05, 2015, 09:54:10 AM
It seems that the appeal went through, but the court upheld the ruling.


18 March 2011

The Appellate Court of Évora did not approve the appeals of the two Judiciary Police officers who were convicted in Leonor Cipriano’s trial and decided to maintain the ruling made at the court of first instance...

https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/10/31/evoras-court-upheld-the-pj-officers-convictions/


Joana Case: Court keeps sentences on former pj inspectors

The Évora Court refuted the existence of "unconstitutionality and nullity" in judgment which upheld the conviction of former inspectors of the Judicial Police (PJ) in the case of attacks on Leonor Cipriano, Joana's mother of child missing in the Algarve in 2004.

On 18 March this year, the Court of Appeal upheld the conviction of former PJ inspector Gonçalo Amaral and António Nunes Cardoso, with suspended sentences, the Court of Faro in 2009, but the latter former agent requested "clarification and reform of judgment. "

According to judicial sources, the Évora Court understood that "lacks reason," the application of António Nunes Cardoso, sentenced to two years and three months imprisonment with suspended sentence for the crime of document forgery. Understand yet the appellate court that the appeal of Évora "surpasses fully the scope allowed to a request for clarification or adduction of errors, oversights, or obscurities nonentities."

In the decision of the resources of the former inspectors, reported on 18 March 2011, the Court / Relation also maintained the sentence of one year and six months in prison for the crime of making false allegations, suspended on probation, applied to Gonçalo Amaral, former coordinator of the Criminal Investigation Department in Portimão.

http://www.dn.pt/inicio/portugal/interior.aspx?content_id=1882361&page=-1&success=1

Thanks for that info Carana. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on July 05, 2015, 09:57:04 AM
Does anyone know what happened when Amaral appealed against his criminal conviction re Leonor Cipriano? 

Was that accepted by the Judge at the first attempt, or did he have to go to a higher court to get the appeal heard?  Was it actually heard at all - or was it not allowed to be heard?    All I know is that it failed - whether it failed to be heard or was heard and then thrown out -  I don't know.

Anyone got any info on this?   It might give us a clue as to how these things work in practise - although I realise  that his previous failed appeal was in a Criminal court and so might not apply to this appeal.

I think this says that his appeal was heard and rejected ....

http://www.dn.pt/inicio/portugal/interior.aspx?content_id=1882361

Carana beat me to the punch, I see ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on July 05, 2015, 10:01:46 AM
Thanks for that info Carana.

It would be interesting to find the court ruling on that.

I'm not sure what was thought to be unconstitutional.

The basis of the appeal appears to have been that there elements that had been errors or elements that have been overlooked, etc. It clearly didn't work, though. As the sentences were upheld, it couldn't have gone to the Supreme Court, so that was the end of that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on July 05, 2015, 10:04:43 AM
I think this says that his appeal was heard and rejected ....

http://www.dn.pt/inicio/portugal/interior.aspx?content_id=1882361

Carana beat me to the punch, I see ....

Thanks Ferryman.   I'm assuming that Amaral accepted the first rejection - and did not choose to take it further - although from what I have read here - he could have done.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on July 05, 2015, 10:33:34 AM
Thanks Ferryman.   I'm assuming that Amaral accepted the first rejection - and did not choose to take it further - although from what I have read here - he could have done.

I don't think so. In theory, if the appellate ruling is identical, then it can't go to the Supreme Court.

There are a few confusing instances of where there appear to have been more than appeal, but I'm not aware of the full circumstances. Possibly slightly different rulings, and counter appeals dragging on.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on July 21, 2015, 09:52:00 AM
There seems to be confirmation now that Amaral's appeal has been filed and replied to by the McCanns;

Dr Correia told us: “You are right. Gonçalo Amaral made an appeal on 15th June, and we replied on 13th July”. - See more at: http://portugalresident.com/brits-send-maddie-cop%E2%80%99s-appeal-fund-to-%E2%82%AC50000#sthash.xHhk1RNg.dpuf

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 21, 2015, 06:25:33 PM
Thanks GU, hopefully that puts an end to previous arguments. Interestng article

Brits send Maddie cop’s appeal fund to €50,000

The wave of public support for former PJ investigator Gonçalo Amaral has hit a new record this week, with over €50,000 now amassed to help him fight his appeal over the €500,000-plus damages awarded against him in the long-running civil action taken out by the parents of Madeleine McCann.

But as supporters shared the news, calling it a victory for “people who put their heads above the parapet”, an internet campaign trying to prove “there is no appeal” and that Amaral is simply raising money under false pretences is trying to gather steam.

In a bid to establish the true picture, the Resident has been in touch with the offices of Isabel Duarte and Ricardo Correia, the lawyers acting for the McCanns.

Dr Correia told us: “You are right. Gonçalo Amaral made an appeal on 15th June, and we replied on 13th July”.

As to the length of time this appeal is likely to take, he was unsure.

“It is an appeal that goes up in the ranking of the courts”, he told us, adding it would take “at least a month”.

And as to why no lay person has been able to access these details via Portugal’s judicial website, CITIUS, he explained:

“You aren’t able to get details unless you have a password and a log-in”.

As a lawyer, you “don’t see any lawyer’s cases, just your own”, he added, which explains why anyone trying to research this case and where it stands will only ever find screenshots.

With the August judicial holiday almost upon us, the chances of Amaral’s appeal being heard before October look slim - but in the meantime, the online appeal to help him pay legal costs is ongoing.

Intriguingly, this appeal that has joined over 2,000 people - many of them giving small amounts every week - has been virtually ignored by mainstream media.

No one is sure why it is being ignored, but certainly the truth is that anyone who publicises it will then find themselves vilified online.

As a legal expert agreed, “it is a curious mark of this case that anyone who does not comply with the accepted storyline will find him or herself being insulted, harassed and generally abused. I can see a story there, actually”.

It is indeed a story. And as the expert warned: “You do realise that the minute you stop this rumour, they will find another one to bug you with, don’t you?”

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on July 21, 2015, 06:45:49 PM
Has someone been reading this thread?  @)(++(*

But as supporters shared the news, calling it a victory for “people who put their heads above the parapet”, an internet campaign trying to prove “there is no appeal” and that Amaral is simply raising money under false pretences is trying to gather steam.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on July 21, 2015, 06:47:37 PM
Has someone been reading this thread?  @)(++(*

But as supporters shared the news, calling it a victory for “people who put their heads above the parapet”, an internet campaign trying to prove “there is no appeal” and that Amaral is simply raising money under false pretences is trying to gather steam.

Some people are so desperate that they'll try anything  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 21, 2015, 06:52:57 PM
Has someone been reading this thread?  @)(++(*

But as supporters shared the news, calling it a victory for “people who put their heads above the parapet”, an internet campaign trying to prove “there is no appeal” and that Amaral is simply raising money under false pretences is trying to gather steam.

Possibly, but any journo following developments will have a butcher's at all the brighter, and , err, darker ,corners of the net.Wouldn't be doing their job properly if they didn't. Informed and impartial is the name of the game.Some Britsh press could learn a thing or two off the "banana republic" 's media!

LOL

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 21, 2015, 07:12:18 PM
Has someone been reading this thread?  @)(++(*

But as supporters shared the news, calling it a victory for “people who put their heads above the parapet”, an internet campaign trying to prove “there is no appeal” and that Amaral is simply raising money under false pretences is trying to gather steam.

If these people were so sure of the mccanns winning the appeal, they wouldn't be trying this stupidity.

Well, it takes all sorts. 8(*(
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on July 21, 2015, 07:16:06 PM
If these people were so sure of the mccanns winning the appeal, they wouldn't be trying this stupidity.

Well, it takes all sorts. 8(*(

Actually ... it is Mr Amaral whose appeal may be heard ... so in those circumstances it would be for him to win or lose it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 21, 2015, 07:21:08 PM
Actually ... it is Mr Amaral whose appeal may be heard ... so in those circumstances it would be for him to win or lose it.

I stand corrected.

However, of course, if Amaral wins, the McCanns lose.

Bye bye to the award.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on July 21, 2015, 07:22:45 PM
Actually ... it is Mr Amaral whose appeal may be heard ... so in those circumstances it would be for him to win or lose it.

May be heard? Will be examined along with the reply filed by the McCann's lawyers.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on July 21, 2015, 07:38:11 PM
May be heard? Will be examined along with the reply filed by the McCann's lawyers.

Any idea why the journalist did not approach Mr Amaral's lawyer for her information but had to rely instead on the Drs McCann lawyers?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 21, 2015, 07:41:52 PM
Any idea why the journalist did not approach Mr Amaral's lawyer for her information but had to rely instead on the Drs McCann lawyers?

Does it matter ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on July 21, 2015, 07:44:36 PM
Any idea why the journalist did not approach Mr Amaral's lawyer for her information but had to rely instead on the Drs McCann lawyers?

From what I gather, it was to confirm with the McCanns' lawyers whether they had filed a response to Amaral's appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 21, 2015, 07:46:26 PM
Does it matter ?

It's a joke Stephen. First, some on here question the fact that Mr Amaral appealed, they said he hadn't, and said they want official sources, which were given, IE in the form of a court receipt and also his own words, AND a news article, but still wouldn't believe it, now, its confirmed by the Mccanns lawyers, they say, well.....why wasn't Amaral asked ?

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on July 21, 2015, 07:51:33 PM
From what I gather, it was to confirm with the McCanns' lawyers whether they had filed a response to Amaral's appeal.

Thanks Carana.

I don't have a great deal of confidence in a journalist who can't count.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 21, 2015, 07:51:58 PM
It's a joke Stephen. First, some on here question the fact that Mr Amaral appealed, they said he hadn't, and said they want official sources, which were given, IE in the form of a court receipt and also his own words, AND a news article, but still wouldn't believe it, now, its confirmed by the Mccanns lawyers, they say, well.....why wasn't Amaral asked ?

 @)(++(*

Judging by comments elsewhere, some people are getting very irate, or as I would prefer to call it, s####### bricks. 8)--))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on July 21, 2015, 08:02:41 PM
Thanks Carana.

I don't have a great deal of confidence in a journalist who can't count.

I doubt that we'll hear much more about it until chicken-flu season starts again. A bit of a dead duck for the moment.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 21, 2015, 08:21:32 PM
It's a joke Stephen. First, some on here question the fact that Mr Amaral appealed, they said he hadn't, and said they want official sources, which were given, IE in the form of a court receipt and also his own words, AND a news article, but still wouldn't believe it, now, its confirmed by the Mccanns lawyers, they say, well.....why wasn't Amaral asked ?

 @)(++(*

We need to establish that Sr Amaral is a ne'er do well conman who is dipping the pockets of the poor sucker GBP  8(0(*
Well in my book Sr Amaral must be a complete T'pot if he is dipping the GBP for only £35 grand; I would have made worth my while. I guess those who are putting it forward as a serious proposition is well are doing it for a gag; for Christ's sake get real or tell it to the marines because the bleeding sailors will not believe it.
 *&*%£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 21, 2015, 08:35:41 PM
Judging by comments elsewhere, some people are getting very irate, or as I would prefer to call it, s####### bricks. 8)--))

must be silly people because I can't see any reason to get irate about anythng at all here, but maybe I'm stupid etc
 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 21, 2015, 08:36:57 PM
I doubt that we'll hear much more about it until chicken-flu season starts again. A bit of a dead duck for the moment.

When does the chicken flu start? Just so I can book an appointment with docs to be sure to be sure
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on July 21, 2015, 08:38:09 PM
Any idea why the journalist did not approach Mr Amaral's lawyer for her information but had to rely instead on the Drs McCann lawyers?

why don't you 'ask the journalist' Brietta. No use asking me.  8(>((
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 21, 2015, 08:38:54 PM
must be silly people because I can't see any reason to get irate about anythng at all here, but maybe I'm stupid etc
 @)(++(*

Take a look at the other places Mercury.

They're not too happy. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on July 21, 2015, 08:40:58 PM
Take a look at the other places Mercury.

They're not too happy. 8)-)))

I'd rather not because when I do I get this uncontrollable urge to spray myself with domestos and neither practices are "good"

 @)(++(*

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 21, 2015, 09:24:23 PM
Thank you Anna. We are just pleased because Amaral's appeal has been confirmed as filed. After pages of posters doubting his word that he had filed his appeal, it is now confirmed by an impeccable source.

I only recall one poster doubting that the appeal had been filed
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 21, 2015, 09:37:14 PM
I only recall one poster doubting that the appeal had been filed

Really, so who was that ?  8**8:/:
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 21, 2015, 10:36:19 PM
Really, so who was that ?  8**8:/:

see if you can remember...certainly g is wrong in thinking there were many posters questioning if the appeal had been filed...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 21, 2015, 11:06:55 PM
As  yet we don't know whether he is appealing against the verdict or the sentence.....his statement in Portuguese did not make it clear...that's the problem with translations
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on July 21, 2015, 11:15:21 PM
As  yet we don't know whether he is appealing against the verdict or the sentence.....his statement in Portuguese did not make it clear...that's the problem with translations

If only the Portuguese press in general would break their extraordinary silence on giving out information on a personage who we are told is loved to bits ... seems he may have lost his newsworthiness or we might have a clearer picture of what was happening.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 22, 2015, 08:37:54 AM
So we await for the appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on July 22, 2015, 09:11:37 AM
So we await for the appeal.

I think we may be almost exactly where we were at the start of the thread.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on August 04, 2015, 10:24:49 AM
So the appeal fund stands on the cusp of 36 grand.

How much will he actually need, and for what?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on August 04, 2015, 08:27:35 PM
So the appeal fund stands on the cusp of 36 grand.

How much will he actually need, and for what?

That's the $50m question ferryman.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on August 04, 2015, 08:31:04 PM
So the appeal fund stands on the cusp of 36 grand.

How much will he actually need, and for what?
For what ?
Lawyers' fees for appeal process, and if that fails, more lawyer fees to take it higher, one would  presume.(I would guess there might be other various expenses involved)
How much?
No idea what they charge.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on August 04, 2015, 08:37:03 PM
That's the $50m question ferryman.

700,000 should cover it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on August 04, 2015, 11:42:39 PM
Everyne knows you hate Amaral but there is no way any appeal for legal help will attract supporters to donate that much, they are not as stupid to go fund the Mccanns are they? even IF this was Amarals evil cunning plan

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on August 06, 2015, 03:56:26 PM
700,000 should cover it.

I think the award will be reduced substantially on appeal since such an award was unprecedented in Portugal but as they say, time will tell.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on August 06, 2015, 04:12:22 PM
I think the award will be reduced substantially on appeal since such an award was unprecedented in Portugal but as they say, time will tell.

Not true.

The position is that far the most common libel actions in Portuguese law are criminal libel actions where damage awards are nominal.

In Portuguese civil libel actions (much rarer in Portugal) there is no limit to the size of the award, save for any limit that might be determined by the nature of the claim.

Here, we are talking about a book that raised substantial sums in sales (in vast numbers) across countries of Europe.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on August 06, 2015, 06:13:51 PM
Not true.

The position is that far the most common libel actions in Portuguese law are criminal libel actions where damage awards are nominal.

In Portuguese civil libel actions (much rarer in Portugal) there is no limit to the size of the award, save for any limit that might be determined by the nature of the claim.

Here, we are talking about a book that raised substantial sums in sales (in vast numbers) across countries of Europe.

What are these vast numbers then ?

Is that more than the Summers and Swan 'effort' ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on August 06, 2015, 11:12:47 PM
Not true.


Here, we are talking about a book that raised substantial sums in sales (in vast numbers) across countries of Europe.

and which the Mccanns said to, we'll have that, though they were devastated by it, and which caused them so suffer from depression and anxiety

How do you square that circle?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: sadie on August 07, 2015, 10:03:10 PM
and which the Mccanns said to, we'll have that, though they were devastated by it, and which caused them so suffer from depression and anxiety

How do you square that circle?
They stopped him
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on August 07, 2015, 10:25:51 PM
That was not an answer to my question. As for stopping anything, that is debatable.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on August 08, 2015, 06:08:58 AM
They stopped him


Too late. They waited a year before trying to ban his book. It was on sale in many countries and the ban only applied to Portugal, then it was overturned. More copies were sold due to the publicity generated. You can ban a book, but you can't erase the thoughts of those who read it. Suing him just gave his thesis more publicity and more integrity. It suggested to some that he had hit a nerve.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on August 08, 2015, 07:23:44 AM

Too late. They waited a year before trying to ban his book. It was on sale in many countries and the ban only applied to Portugal, then it was overturned. More copies were sold due to the publicity generated. You can ban a book, but you can't erase the thoughts of those who read it. Suing him just gave his thesis more publicity and more integrity. It suggested to some that he had hit a nerve.

very few in the Uk have heard about the book..AFAIAC....they had no choice but to sue...no choice at all
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on August 08, 2015, 08:01:58 AM
very few in the Uk have heard about the book..AFAIAC....they had no choice but to sue...no choice at all

NOPE.

No, it was about two things, REVENGE and MONEY.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on August 08, 2015, 08:17:44 AM
NOPE.

No, it was about two things, REVENGE and MONEY.

we all have our opinions
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on August 08, 2015, 08:25:09 AM
If Amaral had stopped at The Book then I doubt that The McCanns would have bothered to sue.  But he went on and on and on, getting worse by the week, and into outright accusations.  Until it became obvious that he wasn't going to stop.  In fact I think he wanted to be sued to encourage sales and even to write yet another Book.
It doesn't appear to have occurred to him that The Portuguese Courts would sequester his money and his assets.  But then if he hadn't had such a bad record with debts, then they might not have done.  He probably thought that his debt history would never come out.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on August 08, 2015, 09:02:09 AM

Too late. They waited a year before trying to ban his book. It was on sale in many countries and the ban only applied to Portugal, then it was overturned. More copies were sold due to the publicity generated. You can ban a book, but you can't erase the thoughts of those who read it. Suing him just gave his thesis more publicity and more integrity. It suggested to some that he had hit a nerve.

If the book had been a factual account of events ... the Drs McCann would have been behind bars.  The proof that it is a tissue of lies and innuendo lies in the fact they are walking free and have been able initially to continue the search for Madeleine which had been abandoned ... and eventually by dint of untiringly keeping up the pressure on her behalf ... succeeded in having the case into her disappearance officially re-opened.

In the interim Mr Amaral, until very recently, had carved out an enviable standard of living as a result of becoming a media personality on the back of a book about a missing child giving details of ...

It is risible that this mercenary individual has built a following on the myth that he 'sacrificed' his career and family to enable 'justice for Madeleine'.
No-one has done more to obstruct the search for her due to incompetence and greed.

That SY and the PJ are still working through some of the witnesses and the people who were in the vicinity when Madeleine vanished shows that there was work still to be done in an investigation which had been pushed in the entirely wrong direction.

That the Portuguese courts have found in favour of her parents in this matter should tell people something.

That Mr Amaral's star appears to be on the wane in Portugal as a result of that and the renewed efforts being put into the search for Madeleine is another factor worth consideration.

I think a person who single handedly had such a malign influence on the search for Madeleine McCann ... was bound to "hit a nerve" with the people who were doing all that was humanly possible to look for her.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on August 08, 2015, 09:15:12 AM
Whether or not Amaral's antics affected the search can only be a matter of opinion since we don't know who might to might not have reported information.
But that isn't really the point.  Amaral did Libel The McCanns and he did cause them great distress.
The amount is only commensurate to how much he made in what was a Civil Case.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on August 08, 2015, 10:28:20 AM
NOPE.

No, it was about two things, REVENGE and MONEY.

Can I ask you a question Stephen?    Would you be happy to let a book circulate saying that you drugged your child then covered up her death,  then hid her body and said she had been abducted?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on August 08, 2015, 10:46:24 AM
Can I ask you a question Stephen?    Would you be happy to let a book circulate saying that you drugged your child then covered up her death,  then hid her body and said she had been abducted?

2  Salient points.

First, mccann was willing to forgive a fictional abductor.

Second, the nature of Madeleine's disappearance is undetermined.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on August 08, 2015, 12:24:54 PM
2  Salient points.

First, mccann was willing to forgive a fictional abductor.

Second, the nature of Madeleine's disappearance is undetermined.

as usual you have not answered the question...if the crime is undetermined then amaral has no right to say the parents done it
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 08, 2015, 12:27:48 PM
as usual you have not answered the question...if the crime is undetermined then amaral has no right to say the parents done it

That's very true davel, that's why it is a thesis.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on August 08, 2015, 12:48:15 PM
That's very true davel, that's why it is a thesis.

Was Amaral purporting a Thesis when he said, several times, that The McCanns disposed of the body of their Daughter?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 08, 2015, 12:52:44 PM
Was Amaral purporting a Thesis when he said, several times, that The McCanns disposed of the body of their Daughter?

That was a contention.  Despite what Mr Amaral might write or say, there is no way he can know for sure what happened to Maddie.  Only those involved directly in her disappearance, assuming such a person or persons exist, can know the answer to that mystery.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on August 08, 2015, 01:04:07 PM
That's very true davel, that's why it is a thesis.

it wasn't a thesis...he said he could prove maddie died in that apartment...his book was called the "truth"
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on August 08, 2015, 01:05:16 PM
That was a contention.  Despite what Mr Amaral might write or say, there is no way he can know for sure what happened to Maddie.  Only those involved directly in her disappearance, assuming such a person or persons exist, can know the answer to that mystery.

but amaral did claim he knew for sure....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 08, 2015, 01:22:16 PM
but amaral did claim he knew for sure....

Well he's wrong.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on August 08, 2015, 01:26:27 PM
as usual you have not answered the question...if the crime is undetermined then amaral has no right to say the parents done it

The facts are the facts.

Crime unknown, ONLY TO THOSE WHO REMOVED MADELEINE.

That has yet to be determined.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on August 08, 2015, 01:30:23 PM
That was a contention.  Despite what Mr Amaral might write or say, there is no way he can know for sure what happened to Maddie.  Only those involved directly in her disappearance, assuming such a person or persons exist, can know the answer to that mystery.

Sorry, what do you mean by "A Contention?"  Amaral did state it categorically, so it ceased to be A Thesis.

One would be hard pushed to find legal cause in his book, despite the frequent and proven lies.  It's what happened after the book that drove The McCanns.
For just how long were they supposed to go on putting up with this?  The ghastly man was on a roll.  It just got worse and worse.
He was begging to be sued.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on August 08, 2015, 01:32:17 PM
The facts are the facts.

Crime unknown, ONLY TO THOSE WHO REMOVED MADELEINE.

That has yet to be determined.

So, in your opinion, how did Amaral prove that The McCanns done it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on August 08, 2015, 01:35:16 PM
That was a contention.

But one that the average reader might take to be fact, based on the "we, policemen, experts..." type of statements.

How many people would bother to question his team's understanding of DNA, for example? A casual reading makes it sound as if he knew what he was talking about. Ditto concerning the significance of the dogs' alerts, and numerous lost-in-confusion issues.

My main objection is not that he wrote a book, was the lead in a "documentary" and was on every media outlet that would have him, nor even that he made a substantial amount of money in the process.

My main gripe is that he presented himself as an "expert" in order to defend his "honour", when he could have taken a step back from it and most probably would still have had a best-seller without the need to push his hypothesis as "what really happened" to the equivalent of those who assume that anything in a tabloid is substantiated fact.

I also think that a more humble attitude could have done a lot to push Portugal foward in terms of the limited resources at hand.

As an example, there was an interview with Lennie Harper (Haut de la Garenne). He openly admitted that he was faced with a massive situation that he had tried to deal with the best he could at the time. How far that's true or not, I don't know, but at least he more or less admitted that he was out of his depth and got side-tracked.

Well, we're all human and make mistakes. Personally, I prefer reading an account of someone who can admit to them, rather than insisting that mysterious and unsubstantiated conspiracies prevented them from proving the "truth", particularly when it concerns a missing child.



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 08, 2015, 01:54:08 PM
Sorry, what do you mean by "A Contention?"  Amaral did state it categorically, so it ceased to be A Thesis.

One would be hard pushed to find legal cause in his book, despite the frequent and proven lies.  It's what happened after the book that drove The McCanns.
For just how long were they supposed to go on putting up with this?  The ghastly man was on a roll.  It just got worse and worse.
He was begging to be sued.

Amaral didn't lose the latest action because he was proven to be wrong, he lost it because he caused unnecessary suffering to Kate and Gerry McCann.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 08, 2015, 01:58:31 PM
But one that the average reader might take to be fact, based on the "we, policemen, experts..." type of statements.

How many people would bother to question his team's understanding of DNA, for example? A casual reading makes it sound as if he knew what he was talking about. Ditto concerning the significance of the dogs' alerts, and numerous lost-in-confusion issues.

My main objection is not that he wrote a book, was the lead in a "documentary" and was on every media outlet that would have him, nor even that he made a substantial amount of money in the process.

My main gripe is that he presented himself as an "expert" in order to defend his "honour", when he could have taken a step back from it and most probably would still have had a best-seller without the need to push his hypothesis as "what really happened" to the equivalent of those who assume that anything in a tabloid is substantiated fact.

I also think that a more humble attitude could have done a lot to push Portugal foward in terms of the limited resources at hand.

As an example, there was an interview with Lennie Harper (Haut de la Garenne). He openly admitted that he was faced with a massive situation that he had tried to deal with the best he could at the time. How far that's true or not, I don't know, but at least he more or less admitted that he was out of his depth and got side-tracked.

Well, we're all human and make mistakes. Personally, I prefer reading an account of someone who can admit to them, rather than insisting that mysterious and unsubstantiated conspiracies prevented them from proving the "truth", particularly when it concerns a missing child.

I have a feeling he pushed the envelope in order to promote the book but he went too far imo.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on August 08, 2015, 02:00:48 PM
Amaral didn't lose the latest action because he was proven to be wrong, he lost it because he caused unnecessary suffering to Kate and Gerry McCann.

Because he was wrong.  How can he have caused unnecessary suffering if he was right?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on August 08, 2015, 02:01:34 PM
I have a feeling he pushed the envelope in order to promote the book but he went too far imo.

I agree.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on August 08, 2015, 02:59:09 PM
Amaral didn't lose the latest action because he was proven to be wrong, he lost it because he caused unnecessary suffering to Kate and Gerry McCann.

He lost it because he was proven to be wrong.

On innumerable counts.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on August 08, 2015, 03:20:42 PM
He lost it because he was proven to be wrong.

On innumerable counts.

Not sure about that, although you are not wrong.  But the fact is that Amaral did lose.  But never mind, we have acres of time to hash it all out.

On the day that I half understand Portuguese Law then I will let you all know.  I only wish that I could have some faith in it.

I truly believe that if The Judiciary had chosen to indict The McCanns then they would have been convicted, because the whole system is crap.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on August 08, 2015, 04:22:44 PM
So, in your opinion, how did Amaral prove that The McCanns done it?

Done what ?


His contention was that it was accidental death and not the mccanns 'dunnit'.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on August 08, 2015, 04:26:13 PM
Amaral accused them of heinous crimes of which they are innocent.

That's why he lost the libel trial.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 08, 2015, 04:37:02 PM
Amaral accused them of heinous crimes of which they are innocent.

That's why he lost the libel trial.

I thought he was shafted because he used privileged information ?
Rather for how he obtained information not for what he said?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on August 08, 2015, 04:39:54 PM
Done what ?


His contention was that it was accidental death and not the mccanns 'dunnit'.

Well someone had to have hidden Madeleine's body.  Or do you think the Abductor did that?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on August 08, 2015, 04:40:05 PM
Amaral accused them of heinous crimes of which they are innocent.

That's why he lost the libel trial.

I am afraid to remind you ferryman, it has not been determined who committed the crime or crimes in this case, as regards Madeleine's disappearance.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on August 08, 2015, 04:40:57 PM
I thought he was shafted because he used privileged information ?
Rather for how he obtained information not for what he said?

And that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on August 08, 2015, 04:44:49 PM
And that.

Using privileged information was a criminal violation for which he was not punished.

He lost the libel trial because he told proven untruths (by the bucket-load) that lowered the reputation of the McCanns.

That's what libel is, statements proven to be untrue that lower reputation ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 08, 2015, 04:45:45 PM
And that.
I thought that Jose Publico could have said whatever it was without fear of reprisal ?
That seemed to be thrust of several posts on here from "those who shall be knelt before".
You mean that was so much hogwash?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on August 08, 2015, 04:46:51 PM
Well someone had to have hidden Madeleine's body.  Or do you think the Abductor did that?

That Eleanor is unknown.

and you are more than well aware of my view on the abduction scenario...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on August 08, 2015, 04:48:55 PM
Using privileged information was a criminal violation for which he was not punished.

He lost the libel trial because he told proven untruths (by the bucket-load) that lowered the reputation of the McCanns.

That's what libel is, statements proven to be untrue that lower reputation ....

Where does it say in the court documents it was alibel trial ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on August 08, 2015, 04:56:13 PM
Well someone had to have hidden Madeleine's body.  Or do you think the Abductor did that?

That Eleanor is unknown.

and you are more than well aware of my view on the abduction scenario...

I am indeed, Stephen.  But do allow me to patronise you.  At least you do come up with some good stuff now and again.

And your opinion is every bit as valid as that of anyone else.

If only you and Davel would stop trying to rip chunks out of the intellect of each other.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on August 08, 2015, 05:16:56 PM
I am indeed, Stephen.  But do allow me to patronise you.  At least you do come up with some good stuff now and again.

And your opinion is every bit as valid as that of anyone else.

If only you and Davel would stop trying to rip chunks out of the intellect of each other.

If davel would have the grace to admit when he is wrong, there be no issue.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 08, 2015, 06:21:19 PM
Using privileged information was a criminal violation for which he was not punished.

He lost the libel trial because he told proven untruths (by the bucket-load) that lowered the reputation of the McCanns.

That's what libel is, statements proven to be untrue that lower reputation ....

You still haven't grasped the nettle yet ferryman.  It wasn't a libel trial and his thesis hasn't been proved wrong no matter how much you wish it.  The recent trial was for damages suffered by the McCanns pursuant to the publication and distribution of Amaral's book and DVD.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on August 08, 2015, 06:27:24 PM
You still haven't grasped the nettle yet ferryman.  It wasn't a libel trial and his thesis hasn't been proved wrong no matter how much you wish it.  The recent trial was for damages suffered by the McCanns pursuant to the publication and distribution of Amaral's book and DVD.

I suspect you've been reading too many of Anne Guide's transcripts ....

A former Portuguese police chief has been ordered to pay the parents of Madeleine McCann €500,000 (£357,953) in libel damages after accusing them of faking their daughter’s abduction.

Gonçalo Amaral, who led the botched police search for the three-year-old in 2007, has been on trial at Lisbon’s Palace of Justice over claims he made in a book about Madeleine’s disappearance.

Gerry and Kate McCann told the trial last year of their “devastation, desperation, anxiety and pain” at being accused by Amaral of hiding their daughter’s body.


Kate and Gerry McCann criticise former police chief who led hunt for Madeleine
 Read more
In a lengthy ruling on Tuesday, Amaral was found guilty of libelling the pair and ordered to pay them €250,000 (£179,170) each in damages, plus €106,000 (£76,000) in interest. The judge also banned further sale of his book, the Truth of the Lie.

The ruling comes days before the eighth anniversary of Madeleine’s disappearance on Sunday. She vanished from her parents’ holiday apartment in Praia da Luz on the evening of Thursday 3 May 2007, triggering the biggest missing persons investigation for decades.

The McCanns said after Tuesday’s verdict that they were delighted with the judge’s ruling and stressed that the action was never about money.


In a statement issued by their family spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, they said: “We are delighted with the judge’s verdict today. We want to emphasise the action was never about money. It was entirely focused on the effect of the libels on our other children and the damage that was done to the search for Madeleine.


“A lot has changed in the six years since we launched the action and we are pleased that there is still an active investigation in both Portugal and the UK. We would like to remind people that there is still an innocent little girl who is missing and that those responsible for her abduction remain at large.”

Advertisement

A renewed Scotland Yard inquiry, launched in 2011, has so far failed to make a significant breakthrough. In the past year, detectives have carried out fresh ground searches and interviews with witnesses in the Algarve resort.

Kate and Gerry, who were originally seeking €1.25m (almost £900,000) in compensation from Amaral, said the damage caused by the retired officer’s book was exacerbated because it could stop people coming forward with information if they believed his assertion that Madeleine was dead. However, the judge’s 52-page ruling said €500,000 compensation was “adequate and proportional” to the damage caused by the allegations.

Amaral’s book, which was a bestseller in Portugal, was particularly controversial because it was released just three days after the Portuguese attorney general’s office decided to shelve the search in July 2008.

The court said it was not proven that the allegations made in the book “contributed to hindering, in any way, the course of the investigation” into Madeleine’s disappearance.

Isabel Duarte, the McCanns’ lawyer, declined to comment on the libel result but said she had sent Kate and Gerry a copy of the ruling.

Giving evidence in the libel trial last year, Kate McCann told how her son asked if she had hidden his missing sister’s body after hearing Amaral’s claims. She said she and Gerry had taken advice from a child psychologist on how to answer questions asked by Sean, nine, and his twin sister Amelie.

Kate added: “They know Mr Amaral has written a book and about the documentary. They obviously don’t know the detail. We had advice from a child psychologist. He told us to let the twins lead the conversation so if they ask a question try to answer it honestly. I believe what’s in Mr Amaral’s book and the documentary is very distressing to adults. To a child it could be very, very damaging.”


Describing the moment Sean asked her about Amaral’s claims, Kate said: “Sean asked me: ‘Mr Amaral said you hid Madeleine, didn’t he?’ It was October last year. I just said: ‘He did. He said a lot of silly things.’”

She told the judge, Maria de Melo e Castro, that Amaral’s claims were even more damaging because they could prevent potential witnesses from coming forward with information if they believed his insistence that Madeleine is dead.

Amaral, who was dropped from the Madeleine investigation after several blunders, vowed earlier last year to countersue the McCanns. Writing on Facebook, he said he would launch “a lawsuit against the McCann couple and others to be compensated for enormous damage they caused me – moral, professional and financial”.

He added: “The time to judicially react to those who put my privacy, intimacy, freedom of expression and opinion and survival at stake is approaching. They have tried to assassinate me civilly. But due to the support and solidarity of all of you, they were not successful.”

In October last year, the McCanns were awarded £55,000 in libel damages from the publisher of the Sunday Times over an article which alleged that the couple deliberately hindered the search for their daughter.

That settlement came six years after the couple negotiated a £550,000 payment to Madeleine’s fund from Express Newspapers over a series of defamatory articles in the Daily Express, Sunday Express and the Daily Star.


http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/apr/28/madeleine-mccann-parents-win-libel-damages-goncalo-amaral-trial
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 08, 2015, 06:41:56 PM
The British Press including the Guardian whose article you posted didn't have the first notion what the civil action was about.  Stephen is 100% correct when he points out that not once during proceedings were they ever referred to as libel. It is unfortunate that the trial reports referred to proceedings as a libel trial because in the true sense of the words that was not what it was.

The McCanns sued for damages in order to compensate them for the stress and suffering they had experienced following publication of Mr Amaral's book.  This was how the judge herself explained it when she interrupted Gerry McCann during his testimony.

The claims in Amaral's book have been neither proven nor discredited.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on August 08, 2015, 06:44:00 PM
The British Press including the Guardian whose article you posted didn't have the first notion what the civil action was about.

I think it's you and others of your persuasion who don't have the first notion ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 08, 2015, 06:47:16 PM
The British Press including the Guardian whose article you posted didn't have the first notion what the civil action was about.

I think it's you and others of your persuasion who don't have the first notion ....

You are wrong in your interpretation and everyone knows it just as you were wrong when you claimed the AG had 'cleared' the parents.

Amaral now has the opportunity to appeal the amount of the damages award made against him and I for one wish him every success.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on August 08, 2015, 07:02:54 PM
You are wrong in your interpretation and everyone knows it just as you were wrong when you claimed the AG had 'cleared' the parents.

Amaral now has the opportunity to appeal the amount of the damages award made against him and I for one wish him every success.

Nope.

Right on every count.

Except that I never claimed the Portuguese prosecutors "cleared" the parents.

They didn't need to.

The McCanns were never charged with anything.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on August 08, 2015, 07:28:24 PM
Because he was wrong.  How can he have caused unnecessary suffering if he was right?


It's possible in PT (albeit with exceptions).

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4530.msg212874#msg212874
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 08, 2015, 07:46:24 PM
Nope.

Right on every count.

Except that I never claimed the Portuguese prosecutors "cleared" the parents.

They didn't need to.

The McCanns were never charged with anything.

Until such time as Maddie's fate has been determined they will always remain suspect.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 08, 2015, 07:48:23 PM
Because he was wrong.  How can he have caused unnecessary suffering if he was right?

Whether Amaral was correct in his thesis is as yet undetermined.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on August 08, 2015, 08:08:15 PM
I thought he was shafted because he used privileged information ?
Rather for how he obtained information not for what he said?

From what I gather from the a quo judge, it was primarily the use / abuse of his former position that seems to have been the issue.

As a former officer he had certain duties, including to shut up about a case he was involved in: the McCanns have the right to the presumption of innocence (which they have always had) and even if a case had come to court, his spoutings could have prejudiced the right to a fair trial.

His argument is that he was technically a "free citizen" three days after the AG report and even if it transgressed police regulations, the transgression was a minor matter compared to his constitutional right to freedom of expression.

PT law seems to be changing all the time... They seem to be moving towards greater freedom of the press to expose corruption / greater accountability in the public sphere in practice, yet accusations made by simple citizens is still a bit of a foggy area.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on August 08, 2015, 09:28:55 PM
Until such time as Maddie's fate has been determined they will always remain suspect.

But they are not suspects Angelo.  The police forces of two countries have ruled them out of the investigation.  They do not believe Amaral's 'thesis' because there is no evidence to support it - and the wishful thinking of a small group of people in a little corner of the internet will not change that fact.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on August 08, 2015, 09:40:12 PM
But they are not suspects Angelo.  The police forces of two countries have ruled them out of the investigation.  They do not believe Amaral's 'thesis' because there is no evidence to support it - and the wishful thinking of a small group of people in a little corner of the internet will not change that fact.

Yet they pick abduction and nothing else with no evidence that would stand up in court.

Very clever.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 08, 2015, 10:23:47 PM
But they are not suspects Angelo.  The police forces of two countries have ruled them out of the investigation.  They do not believe Amaral's 'thesis' because there is no evidence to support it - and the wishful thinking of a small group of people in a little corner of the internet will not change that fact.

I said they will remain suspect, not suspects ie until such time as Maddie's fate is known they will always be surrounded by suspicion.

There isn't an iota of evidence to support an abduction either.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on August 08, 2015, 10:36:37 PM
I said they will remain suspect, not suspects ie until such time as Maddie's fate is known they will always be surrounded by suspicion.

There isn't an iota of evidence to support an abduction either.

I don't know what is worse for them, the mystery of their daughters disappearance or the realisation that so many people view them as culpable.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on August 09, 2015, 08:47:26 AM
That would depend on how much of a mystery her disappearance is to them.

I'm sure that they had no inkling of how their actions would result in such public vilification.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on August 09, 2015, 09:02:44 AM
That would depend on how much of a mystery her disappearance is to them.

I'm sure that they had no inkling of how their actions would result in such public vilification.

Vilification by some...and an incredible amount of support from others
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 03, 2015, 04:05:03 PM
More grinding of teeth about to begin.

'Confirmation that the appeal has been accepted by the Appellate Court has been received today from the lawyer. Once again, thank you so very much to everyone who has made a contribution. We will keep you informed.'


http://pjga.blogspot.nl/2015/09/confirmation.html?m=1


So the case goes on and on..............
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 04, 2015, 03:15:24 AM
The appeal court has agreed to hear Mr Amaral's appeal
http://pjga.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2015, 07:20:38 AM
The appeal court has agreed to hear Mr Amaral's appeal
http://pjga.blogspot.com/
So again he talks of appeal against the sentence rather than the judgement
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2015, 07:35:35 AM
So again he talks of appeal against the sentence rather than the judgement

Where does it say sentence ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 04, 2015, 07:44:11 AM
Most odd that there is no announcement of the joyous news on the gofundme blog.

One contributor has made reference to it, but that's it ....

Ms Baulch, these days, seems to be writing blogs .....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on September 04, 2015, 07:47:42 AM
Most odd that there is no announcement of the joyous news on the gofundme blog.

One contributor has made reference to it, but that's it ....

Ms Baulch, these days, seems to be writing blogs .....

He obviously needs a PR person for quantity and timing of news and stories.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2015, 07:48:18 AM
Most odd that there is no announcement of the joyous news on the gofundme blog.

One contributor has made reference to it, but that's it ....

Ms Baulch, these days, seems to be writing blogs .....

Yes Ms Baulch seems to have turned her back on amaral
Wonder why
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2015, 07:50:45 AM
Yes Ms Baulch seems to have turned her back on amaral
Wonder why


and how did you come to that deduction ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 04, 2015, 08:05:17 AM

and how did you come to that deduction ?

Her name is completely wiped from the gofundme site
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 04, 2015, 08:06:42 AM
He obviously needs a PR person for quantity and timing of news and stories.

Does he also need reliable news to impart?

Who runs gofundme?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2015, 08:09:52 AM
Her name is completely wiped from the gofundme site

So what.

The appeal has been granted.

Are you pleased ferryman, justice is being served ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2015, 08:33:14 AM
So what.

The appeal has been granted.

Are you pleased ferryman, justice is being served ?

I'm pleased I have been proved right again
As I pointed out amarals right to appeal was not automatic when sceptics were claims he already had the right to appeal
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2015, 08:37:00 AM
I'm pleased I have been proved right again
As I pointed out amarals right to appeal was not automatic when sceptics were claims he already had the right to appeal

Irrelevant.

The word was 'accepted', not  'granted'.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on September 04, 2015, 08:51:14 AM
Yes Ms Baulch seems to have turned her back on amaral
Wonder why

Maybe she is uncomfortable with the false claim - being made daily on that site  - regarding the number of people who have donated to his fund.     Every donation is added onto the total  as a 'new person' and ignores the fact that many are actually from the same people making repeat donations.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2015, 08:54:28 AM
Maybe she is uncomfortable with the false claim - being made daily on that site  - regarding the number of people who have donated to his fund.     Every donation is added onto the total  as a 'new person' and ignores the fact that many are actually from the same people making repeat donations.

So what is the problem if people donate more than once.

That's up to them.

Have people donated to the mccanns more than once ?

Anyway, the key point, the appeal is accepted.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on September 04, 2015, 08:59:36 AM
So what is the problem if people donate more than once.

That's up to them.

Have people donated to the mccanns more than once ?

Anyway, the key point, the appeal is accepted.

I have no problem with people donating more than once.  I do have a problem with disinformation deliberately being peddled to the public.

It's dishonest IMO.





Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2015, 09:23:53 AM
I have no problem with people donating more than once.  I do have a problem with disinformation deliberately being peddled to the public.

It's dishonest IMO.

So people who donated to the mccanns fund not knowing what the money was being used for certainly have the right to say it was dishonest.

Would you not agree ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on September 04, 2015, 09:32:00 AM
So people who donated to the mccanns fund not knowing what the money was being used for certainly have the right to say it was dishonest.

Would you not agree ?

Still desperately trying to change the subject I see.   

The evidence of the lie being purported on that site is there for everyone to see.   

Why do you think it is being allowed to remain - when AFAIK it would be a simple task to correct it?

Any ideas?


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2015, 09:35:10 AM
Still desperately trying to change the subject I see.   

The evidence of the lie being purported on that site is there for everyone to see.   

Why do you think it is being allowed to remain - when AFAIK it would be a simple task to correct it?

Any ideas?

The real problem you have is with people donating to Amaral.

Everything else is a red herring.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on September 04, 2015, 09:52:29 AM
The real problem you have is with people donating to Amaral.

Everything else is a red herring.

The real problem you have is that you can't deny the fact that the total number of people claimed to be individual donators - (when we all know many of them are  'repeat' donators)  - means the 'total' claimed is completely untrue.   The true total is considerably lower than that number IMO.

Hence your attempts to deflect and your refusal to make any comments on that fact.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 04, 2015, 10:42:38 AM
It seems to be the way the site works, rather than a deliberate move by anyone using it. It keeps count of donations rather than donators. It assumes that each donation is made by a different person. You can hardly blame the users for the way the site works.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on September 04, 2015, 10:49:17 AM
It seems to be the way the site works, rather than a deliberate move by anyone using it. It keeps count of donations rather than donators. You can hardly blame the users for the way the site works.

When a false total of people who have donated is being quoted elsewhere - then I do think they should correct it.    Surely it doesn't take rocket science to change 'people' to 'donations'  or remove the lie altogether.   So why haven't they done that? 

Could it be they are happy in the knowledge that it looks as if far more people are donating than really are?

Who knows.

(bye for now)

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 04, 2015, 11:18:14 AM
When a false total of people who have donated is being quoted elsewhere - then I do think they should correct it.    Surely it doesn't take rocket science to change 'people' to 'donations'  or remove the lie altogether.   So why haven't they done that? 

Could it be they are happy in the knowledge that it looks as if far more people are donating than really are?

Who knows.

(bye for now)

Why should 'Gofundme' change the way the site works? Does it matter how many people have donated? What matters is that the target has been exceeded and the costs can be met, surely That was the point of the exercise.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2015, 12:07:56 PM
Why should 'Gofundme' change the way the site works? Does it matter how many people have donated? What matters is that the target has been exceeded and the costs can be met, surely That was the point of the exercise.

It's important to point out that the organisers of this fund are lying
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2015, 12:13:22 PM
It's important to point out that the organisers of this fund are lying

Nope.

What is clearly obvious though, is that you and others take every chance you get to denigrate Amaral and those that support him.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 04, 2015, 12:30:51 PM
It's important to point out that the organisers of this fund are lying

Lying about what precisely?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 04, 2015, 12:44:20 PM
It's important to point out that the organisers of this fund are lying

All the Gofundme pages are the same. At the top it says 'raised by x people' and lower down it says 'x donations'. The two figures are the same.

It isn't due to anyone lying in my opinion, it's due to the way Gofundme is set up. Unless people have proof that the fundraisers have control over what their page says in this respect they should stop making accusations.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on September 04, 2015, 12:51:54 PM
All the Gofundme pages are the same. At the top it says 'raised by x people' and lower down it says 'x donations'. The two figures are the same.

It isn't due to anyone lying in my opinion, it's due to the way Gofundme is set up. Unless people have proof that the fundraisers have control over what their page says in this respect they should stop making accusations.

Agreed, could well be libellous.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 04, 2015, 02:47:38 PM
When a false total of people who have donated is being quoted elsewhere - then I do think they should correct it.    Surely it doesn't take rocket science to change 'people' to 'donations'  or remove the lie altogether.   So why haven't they done that? 

Could it be they are happy in the knowledge that it looks as if far more people are donating than really are?

Who knows.

(bye for now)

How many donated in this very large group?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGQBw8RXIAAzOgi.jpg)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 04, 2015, 05:48:01 PM
How many donated in this very large group?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGQBw8RXIAAzOgi.jpg)
One.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 04, 2015, 06:10:19 PM
How many donated in this very large group?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGQBw8RXIAAzOgi.jpg)

One person (almost certainly from no police force) who felt compelled to propagate that lie.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 04, 2015, 06:11:31 PM
One.

That's the concise version of what I've just posted.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2015, 06:23:43 PM
One person (almost certainly from no police force) who felt compelled to propagate that lie.

I presume you can prove that is a lie ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on September 04, 2015, 06:28:43 PM
Restrictions on the Private Life of a Police Officer

Members must abstain from any activity which is likely to interfere with the impartial discharge of duty or likely to give rise to the impression that the activity may do so. Police officers are also required not to take any active part in politics.

http://glospolfed.org.uk/rules-and-regs/restrictions-on-the-private-life-of-a-police-officer/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 04, 2015, 06:38:41 PM
Restrictions on the Private Life of a Police Officer

Members must abstain from any activity which is likely to interfere with the impartial discharge of duty or likely to give rise to the impression that the activity may do so. Police officers are also required not to take any active part in politics.

http://glospolfed.org.uk/rules-and-regs/restrictions-on-the-private-life-of-a-police-officer/

I would be appalled if I discovered that serving police officers were interfering in any way whatsoever in an active investigation ... particularly one involving a child missing overseas.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2015, 06:40:50 PM
Restrictions on the Private Life of a Police Officer

Members must abstain from any activity which is likely to interfere with the impartial discharge of duty or likely to give rise to the impression that the activity may do so. Police officers are also required not to take any active part in politics.

http://glospolfed.org.uk/rules-and-regs/restrictions-on-the-private-life-of-a-police-officer/

This not a political case, is it ?

and if officers are not involved in the case, why shouldn't they give an opinion ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 04, 2015, 06:42:09 PM
Pretty much the only positive thing to say about that squalid stunt is that it was, at least, transparent.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on September 04, 2015, 06:45:05 PM
Under whose orders was this case reopened. Stephen?

There are lots of rules that a police officer must abide by.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2015, 06:50:37 PM
Under whose orders was this case reopened. Stephen?

There are lots of rules that a police officer must abide by.


Madeleine's disappearance is not a political issue.

David Cameron after 'guidance' from R. Brooks gave orders to SY.

So where Anna does it say, and enshrined in law, that police officers can't comment on this or other cases ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on September 04, 2015, 07:14:40 PM

Madeleine's disappearance is not a political issue

David Cameron after 'guidance' from R. Brooks gave orders to SY.

So where Anna does it say, and enshrined in law, that police officers can't comment on this or other cases ?

Believe what you wish to believe Stephen. I know what I know.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2015, 07:21:27 PM
Lying about what precisely?
UPDATE #24
2 MONTHS AGO





22
22 people like this update£32,675!!

 Fantastic support has been shown to Gonçalo Amaral via your comments and shares! Just one donation away from 2,000 donors. Thank you all so much for continuing to support Snr Amaral.


do you need it any clearer or do YOU wish to perpetuate a lie. This was posted 2 months ago on the site by LB

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2015, 07:22:09 PM
Believe what you wish to believe Stephen. I know what I know.

Tell me one thing Anna.

Do you actually believe all members of the police force, say in the UK believe the mccanns story ?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on September 04, 2015, 07:32:31 PM
Tell me one thing Anna.

Do you actually believe all members of the police force, say in the UK believe the mccanns story ?

That's like asking me. if I believe that no-one in the UK is racial. However it is against the law to act upon it.



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 04, 2015, 07:33:00 PM
Tell me one thing Anna.

Do you actually believe all members of the police force, say in the UK believe the mccanns story ?

There isn't a "story" to "believe"

There is their, strictly factual, account of events, with any errors accounted for by genuine memory lapses that are entirely predictable and normal by anyone in their stressful situation.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2015, 07:34:06 PM
That's like asking me. if I believe that no-one in the UK is racial. However it is against the law to act upon it.

Where does it state in UK law police officers can't express opinions on cases they are not involved in ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2015, 07:36:43 PM
There isn't a "story" to "believe"

There is their, strictly factual, account of events, with any errors accounted for by genuine memory lapses that are entirely predictable and normal by anyone in their stressful situation.

That ferryman is a matter of opinion.

A situation for which they hold responsibility for.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 04, 2015, 07:46:19 PM
Tell me one thing Anna.

Do you actually believe all members of the police force, say in the UK believe the mccanns story ?

I would be very worried if there are any who do ... in my opinion it would mean we are being exposed to officers who do not understand rules of evidence.

There again, it takes all sorts and as we know there are police officers who are a disgrace to the uniform.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 04, 2015, 07:56:54 PM
UPDATE #24
2 MONTHS AGO





22
22 people like this update£32,675!!

 Fantastic support has been shown to Gonçalo Amaral via your comments and shares! Just one donation away from 2,000 donors. Thank you all so much for continuing to support Snr Amaral.


do you need it any clearer or do YOU wish to perpetuate a lie. This was posted 2 months ago on the site by LB

Cheers; but the "counting" story has been done to death. Most sensible folk would read that as 2000 donations.
Any road oop me duck I would have thought the only relevant thing was 'ow much seein' as 'ow that's what counts in the long run.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2015, 08:00:25 PM
I would be very worried if there are any who do ... in my opinion it would mean we are being exposed to officers who do not understand rules of evidence.

There again, it takes all sorts and as we know there are police officers who are a disgrace to the uniform.

Dear oh dear.


I've heard some cobblers in my time but that takes the biscuit.

 8(*(
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 04, 2015, 08:04:04 PM
Cheers; but the "counting" story has been done to death. Most sensible folk would read that as 2000 donations.
Any road oop me duck I would have thought the only relevant thing was 'ow much seein' as 'ow that's what counts in the long run.

                                  You may see donations ... I see donors.  Funny that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2015, 08:06:15 PM
                                  You may see donations ... I see donors.  Funny that.

and how many repeat donations to the mccanns get.

This criticism of the fund for Amaral's legal expenses is becoming increasingly ridiculous.

IMHO of course? 8)-)))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 04, 2015, 08:09:11 PM
and how many repeat donations to the mccanns get.

This criticism of the fund for Amaral's legal expenses is becoming increasingly ridiculous.

IMHO of course? 8)-)))

Precisely the situation regarding the fully audited fund which had to be set up to finance the search for a missing little girl who no-one in authority was looking for.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 04, 2015, 08:18:52 PM
Precisely the situation regarding the fully audited fund which had to be set up to finance the search for a missing little girl who no-one in authority was looking for.

I think both the PJ and the UK police might disagree with you. Who wasn't investigating when the fund was launched on 16th May, thirteen days after her disappearance?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2015, 08:20:27 PM
I think both the PJ and the UK police might disagree with you. Who wasn't investigating when the fund was launched on 16th May, thirteen days after her disappearance?

Indeed.

One gets the impression, setting up the fund was with a long term in mind.

As to the 'search'….......
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2015, 08:21:21 PM
I think both the PJ and the UK police might disagree with you. Who wasn't investigating when the fund was launched on 16th May, thirteen days after her disappearance?

I would think the mccanns realised very early on how inept the PJ were and that they would need to organise things themselves
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2015, 08:24:52 PM
Cheers; but the "counting" story has been done to death. Most sensible folk would read that as 2000 donations.
Any road oop me duck I would have thought the only relevant thing was 'ow much seein' as 'ow that's what counts in the long run.

Then they cannot read and that explains why some posters don't understand the evidence
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2015, 08:40:26 PM
I would think the mccanns realised very early on how inept the PJ were and that they would need to organise things themselves

I think it was very obvious early on how inept the mccanns were at taking care of their children.

IMO of course.

The PJ weren't perfect and neither are SY.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 04, 2015, 08:52:32 PM
I would think the mccanns realised very early on how inept the PJ were and that they would need to organise things themselves

They were certainly amazingly perceptive. They were criticising the Portuguese authorities on 3/4th May 2007. It was almost as if they made their minds up before the Portuguese police even got to the Ocean Club.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2015, 08:55:34 PM
They were certainly amazingly perceptive. They were criticising the Portuguese authorities on 3/4th May 2007. It was almost as if they made their minds up before the Portuguese police even got to the Ocean Club.

Obviously the mccanns are infaliable and knew how to conduct an investigation into a missing child. 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 04, 2015, 09:36:22 PM
I would think the mccanns realised very early on how inept the PJ were and that they would need to organise things themselves

Perhaps by now they realise that it's not so easy as it looks. Loads of money spent and nothing achieved.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2015, 09:44:34 PM
Perhaps by now they realise that it's not so easy as it looks. Loads of money spent and nothing achieved.

I think they are much happier with SY involved
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on September 04, 2015, 10:43:13 PM
Restrictions on the Private Life of a Police Officer

Members must abstain from any activity which is likely to interfere with the impartial discharge of duty or likely to give rise to the impression that the activity may do so. Police officers are also required not to take any active part in politics.

http://glospolfed.org.uk/rules-and-regs/restrictions-on-the-private-life-of-a-police-officer/

I think you will find that police officers are very supportive of other police officers who have hit problems. What you seem to be suggesting is that it would illegal for the police federation paid for by policemen to assist a police officer in trouble.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 04, 2015, 10:47:38 PM
Restrictions on the Private Life of a Police Officer

Members must abstain from any activity which is likely to interfere with the impartial discharge of duty or likely to give rise to the impression that the activity may do so. Police officers are also required not to take any active part in politics.

http://glospolfed.org.uk/rules-and-regs/restrictions-on-the-private-life-of-a-police-officer/

One of the issues surrounding the McCann v Amaral case concerns whether restrictions as a police officer were void as soon as he had officially left or not.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on September 04, 2015, 10:51:57 PM
One of the issues surrounding the McCann v Amaral case concerns whether restrictions as a police officer were void as soon as he had officially left or not.

I don't think England and Wales rules necessarily apply to Portuguese police. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on September 04, 2015, 10:55:02 PM
Restrictions on the Private Life of a Police Officer

Members must abstain from any activity which is likely to interfere with the impartial discharge of duty or likely to give rise to the impression that the activity may do so. Police officers are also required not to take any active part in politics.

http://glospolfed.org.uk/rules-and-regs/restrictions-on-the-private-life-of-a-police-officer/

I am not clear what is being talked about here. Are you saying no policeman as a private citizen can offer opinion on open cases? because, if so, that has certainly not been the case in this case. There has been a stream of retired Brit police offering their tuppence.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on September 04, 2015, 10:59:18 PM
I am not clear what is being talked about here. Are you saying no policeman as a private citizen can offer opinion on open cases? because, if so, that has certainly not been the case in this case. There has been a stream of retired Brit police offering their tuppence.

I don't recall retired police officers being mentioned, Mercury. As to the quote it was information in response to another post, but you will have to read back for that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on September 04, 2015, 11:03:46 PM
I think you will find that police officers are very supportive of other police officers who have hit problems. What you seem to be suggesting is that it would illegal for the police federation paid for by policemen to assist a police officer in trouble.

I was suggesting nothing. Are you a police officer?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on September 04, 2015, 11:14:13 PM
I don't recall retired police officers being mentioned, Mercury. As to the quote it was information in response to another post, but you will have to read back for that.

Right. I guess I will have to read back then instead of just being told what it was about, No probs.
Unless some other kind soul can do a quick précis lol


 8**8:/:

ETA, forget it, found it thanks.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on September 04, 2015, 11:17:42 PM
I was suggesting nothing. Are you a police officer?

You were quoting so I assume you felt it relevant to the discussion about police donating to GA fund. N.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on September 04, 2015, 11:24:27 PM
You were quoting so I assume you felt it relevant to the discussion about police donating to GA fund. N.

It was a long way back and something to do with a police team. Slarti. I am trying to find it now.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on September 04, 2015, 11:28:35 PM
Here you go

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6269.msg269437#msg269437
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 05, 2015, 12:00:50 AM
... Police officers are also required not to take any active part in politics ...
http://glospolfed.org.uk/rules-and-regs/restrictions-on-the-private-life-of-a-police-officer/
Some people went hundreds of miles to ensure that an ex-policeman was prevented from taking an active part in local politics.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 05, 2015, 06:50:50 AM
Here you go

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6269.msg269437#msg269437

I would like to know the difference between police officers donating to a Fund and Leicestershire police wearing 'Find Madeleine' wristbands and providing a link on their website to the Find Madeleine website?  Both suggest bias.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on September 05, 2015, 07:01:05 AM
Here you go

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6269.msg269437#msg269437

 &%+((£

Anna, that is this thread?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 05, 2015, 09:11:06 AM
Seems the mccanns aren't too happy.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/463136/New-slap-face-Maddie-parents-Cop-wins-fight-libel-case-appeal
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 05, 2015, 09:25:51 AM
Seems the mccanns aren't too happy.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/463136/New-slap-face-Maddie-parents-Cop-wins-fight-libel-case-appeal

How exasperating for them. The man should have rolled over and paid up without a fight like the UK newspapers did. Who does he think he is?   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on September 05, 2015, 09:33:06 AM
How exasperating for them. The man should have rolled over and paid up without a fight like the UK newspapers did. Who does he think he is?   @)(++(*

(a)  IMO no 'source close to the McCanns' would make any comments to a newspaper.

(b)  Is it your opinion that the McCanns didn't know Amaral was going to appeal - or that their lawyer hasn't already explained all the possible eventualities to them?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 05, 2015, 09:33:53 AM
How exasperating for them. The man should have rolled over and paid up without a fight like the UK newspapers did. Who does he think he is?   @)(++(*

Well according to the mirror, probably one of those nasty sardine munchers.  8)--))

Actually sardines are quite nice barbecued with a chilli sauce. ?{)(**
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2015, 09:35:15 AM
How exasperating for them. The man should have rolled over and paid up without a fight like the UK newspapers did. Who does he think he is?   @)(++(*

Yes he should have done... Like Bennett
If he had he may have kept some of his money
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 05, 2015, 09:35:18 AM
(a)  IMO no 'source close to the McCanns' would make any comments to a newspaper.

(b)  Is it your opinion that the McCanns didn't know Amaral was going to appeal - or that their lawyer hasn't already explained all the possible eventualities to them?

How would you know  there are no 'sources' close to the mccanns ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2015, 09:38:35 AM
How would you know  there are no 'sources' close to the mccanns ?

The correct spelling is sauces
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 05, 2015, 09:45:53 AM
(a)  IMO no 'source close to the McCanns' would make any comments to a newspaper.

(b)  Is it your opinion that the McCanns didn't know Amaral was going to appeal - or that their lawyer hasn't already explained all the possible eventualities to them?

a. Do UK newspapers tell lies then  iyo? How absolutely disgraceful!

b. They may have thought they had defeated him initially. His assets were frozen so he had no funds to appeal with. I expect it was quite exasperating to see the bulk of the money for his appeal being raised by UK people. That was a bit of a slap in the face, wasn't it? Of course it was only 'trolls', but who'd have thought that they (the dregs of society according to some) would have been able to raise the amount they did?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on September 05, 2015, 09:46:50 AM
How would you know  there are no 'sources' close to the mccanns ?


Common sense.     Everyone ''close to the McCanns'' will be well aware of the pitfalls of talking to the press.   IMO they would run a mile first before talking to any reporter - let alone one from the STAR. 



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on September 05, 2015, 09:48:58 AM
&%+((£

Anna, that is this thread?

Anna was simply reminding members of the rules pertaining to Police Officers, which she had previously posted on this Thread.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 05, 2015, 09:52:10 AM
The correct spelling is sauces

 8(*( 8(*( 8(*(
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 05, 2015, 09:53:21 AM

Common sense.     Everyone ''close to the McCanns'' will be well aware of the pitfalls of talking to the press.   IMO they would run a mile first before talking to any reporter - let alone one from the STAR.

Of course benice.

So that would just be likes sources close to the PJ and Amaral then ? 8)--))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2015, 09:53:56 AM
a. Do UK newspapers tell lies then  iyo? How absolutely disgraceful!

b. They may have thought they had defeated him initially. His assets were frozen so he had no funds to appeal with. I expect it was quite exasperating to see the bulk of the money for his appeal being raised by UK people. That was a bit of a slap in the face, wasn't it? Of course it was only 'trolls', but who'd have thought that they (the dregs of society according to some) would have been able to raise the amount they did?

The mccanns would be well aware that amaral would appeal
They would have been fully expecting it
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 05, 2015, 09:54:53 AM

Common sense.     Everyone ''close to the McCanns'' will be well aware of the pitfalls of talking to the press.   IMO they would run a mile first before talking to any reporter - let alone one from the STAR.

One man's common sense is another man's nonsense.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 05, 2015, 09:56:51 AM
The mccanns would be well aware that amaral would appeal
They would have been fully expecting it

In your opinion, unless you have inside knowledge?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2015, 09:59:08 AM
In your opinion, unless you have inside knowledge?
No not my opinion
Everyone knew apart from you it seems that amaral would appeal and the case could drag on for years
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 05, 2015, 10:01:25 AM
Yes he should have done... Like Bennett
If he had he may have kept some of his money

I may be wrong, but i think it was lack of funds which defeated Bennett. I'm not saying he would have won if he had funds, but he stopped because he didn't, I think.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on September 05, 2015, 10:04:06 AM
a. Do UK newspapers tell lies then  iyo? How absolutely disgraceful!

b. They may have thought they had defeated him initially. His assets were frozen so he had no funds to appeal with. I expect it was quite exasperating to see the bulk of the money for his appeal being raised by UK people. That was a bit of a slap in the face, wasn't it? Of course it was only 'trolls', but who'd have thought that they (the dregs of society according to some) would have been able to raise the amount they did?

I'm sure the McCanns are well aware of how the Portuguese legal system grinds along by now - and their lawyer will have spelled it out to them anyway IMO.

I have no idea what the McCanns think of the fund.   Maybe they are glad to see the 'pity me' excuse of ''It's not fair - I'd love to appeal but I'm just too poverty stricken '  -  removed from the equation.

If Amaral is in a position (because of the fund) to carry out his stated intention of sueing not only the McCanns but their friends too - then I can't wait to see what his grounds will be for sueing people.
Any ideas?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 05, 2015, 10:05:15 AM
I'm sure the McCanns are well aware of how the Portuguese legal system grinds along by now - and their lawyer will have spelled it out to them anyway IMO.

I have no idea what the McCanns think of the fund.   Maybe they are glad to see the 'pity me' excuse of ''It's not fair - I'd love to appeal but I'm just too poverty stricken '  -  removed from the equation.

If Amaral is in a position (because of the fund) to carry out his stated intention of sueing not only the McCanns but their friends too - then I can't wait to see what his grounds will be for sueing people.
Any ideas?

and don't forget the Supreme Court, and The European Court of Human Rights......................
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 05, 2015, 10:13:32 AM
and don't forget the Supreme Court, and The European Court of Human Rights......................

LOL

Maybe his supporters should consider organising bequests...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 05, 2015, 10:17:13 AM
LOL

Maybe his supporters should consider organising bequests...

You may be laughing now Carana, but don't bet on the outcome this time.

In his last appeal against the mccanns, he won.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on September 05, 2015, 10:19:59 AM
You may be laughing now Carana, but don't bet on the outcome this time.

In his last appeal against the mccanns, he won.

Only to lose that one later.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 05, 2015, 10:22:07 AM
Only to lose that one later.

We shall see what happens in about a years time.

meanwhile the legal bills continue to accrue.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 05, 2015, 10:42:42 AM
No not my opinion
Everyone knew apart from you it seems that amaral would appeal and the case could drag on for years

Does that mean 'everyone' knew that he was going to have the funds needed to appeal? I believe the appeal will be heard on 7th October. Quite quick, eh?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 05, 2015, 10:49:20 AM
I'm sure the McCanns are well aware of how the Portuguese legal system grinds along by now - and their lawyer will have spelled it out to them anyway IMO.

I have no idea what the McCanns think of the fund.   Maybe they are glad to see the 'pity me' excuse of ''It's not fair - I'd love to appeal but I'm just too poverty stricken '  -  removed from the equation.

If Amaral is in a position (because of the fund) to carry out his stated intention of sueing not only the McCanns but their friends too - then I can't wait to see what his grounds will be for sueing people like Diana Webster for instance.

Any ideas?

No comment on the truthfulness or otherwise of UK newspapers then? You did suggest they lied.

I would think Amaral is concentrating on his appeal at the moment and not thinking too far ahead. His friends seem to have enough in the fund to pay for that. One step at a time is how detectives proceed I expect.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 05, 2015, 10:58:46 AM
Does that mean 'everyone' knew that he was going to have the funds needed to appeal? I believe the appeal will be heard on 7th October. Quite quick, eh?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 05, 2015, 11:06:15 AM
Only to lose that one later.

Do you mean when the lower court re-instated the book ban rejected by the higher court? The higher court that this appeal may also reach eventually?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 05, 2015, 11:08:24 AM


Is that the date of the hearing? Maybe it is. The letter said that that was when it was going to be sent to the appeals court, but I can't see why it wouldn't have been forwarded immediately.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2015, 11:10:32 AM
I'm sure the McCanns are well aware of how the Portuguese legal system grinds along by now - and their lawyer will have spelled it out to them anyway IMO.

I have no idea what the McCanns think of the fund.   Maybe they are glad to see the 'pity me' excuse of ''It's not fair - I'd love to appeal but I'm just too poverty stricken '  -  removed from the equation.

If Amaral is in a position (because of the fund) to carry out his stated intention of sueing not only the McCanns but their friends too - then I can't wait to see what his grounds will be for sueing people.
Any ideas?

Any idea how the McCanns are funding the ongoing litigation ?  Seems stopping Amaral damaging the search for Madeleine can't now be used as a justification for using the fund as the judge said that that wasn't the case. Are the reports we have seen over the last few days about the McCanns moving money linked ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 05, 2015, 11:11:31 AM
Does that mean 'everyone' knew that he was going to have the funds needed to appeal? I believe the appeal will be heard on 7th October. Quite quick, eh?
Yes looks like the first stage at least will be on 7th October.

"Elaborado em 02-09-2015 ...
Mais fica notificado de que os autos vão ser remetidos ao Tribunal de Relação de Lisboa, em 10.7.2015"

"Written on 02-09-2015 ...
Furthermore it is notified that the case will be referred to the Court of Appeal of Lisbon, on 07-10-2015"

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3gMr83taymg/VehXJW2voXI/AAAAAAAAADI/6GrhuXoRxhM/s1600/Notificacao.jpg
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 05, 2015, 11:17:03 AM
Any idea how the McCanns are funding the ongoing litigation ?  Seems stopping Amaral damaging the search for Madeleine can't now be used as a justification for using the fund as the judge said that that wasn't the case. Are the reports we have seen over the last few days about the McCanns moving money linked ?

The judge found that it couldn't be proven that he had damaged the search. Nuance.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 05, 2015, 11:17:54 AM
Is that the date of the hearing? Maybe it is. The letter said that that was when it was going to be sent to the appeals court, but I can't see why it wouldn't have been forwarded immediately.

I don't know, Carana. Maybe i read it wrong?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on September 05, 2015, 11:22:12 AM
Do you mean when the lower court re-instated the book ban rejected by the higher court? The higher court that this appeal may also reach eventually?

The Book is certainly Banned at the moment.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 05, 2015, 11:26:09 AM
I don't know, Carana. Maybe i read it wrong?

I don't know, either. I can't think of any further steps that would delay it being transmitted once the judge had given the ok - so maybe it's just a strange way of formulating it.

It's only going to be three judges poring over it with laptops and coffee in any case (AFAIK). I'm not even sure if lawyers need to be present if it's just examining submitted documents.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 05, 2015, 11:29:10 AM
and don't forget the Supreme Court, and The European Court of Human Rights......................

This case will go nowhere near the European Court of Human Rights ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 05, 2015, 11:30:38 AM
I wish to apologise to everyone for making a wrong prediction about 12 weeks ago.
Here it is
"And I am sure nobody will have any objection if the gofundme total raised increases to £40K when the Sun Mirror Mail Telegraph Guardian Times Independent BBC ITV and Sky all finally end their recent silence about it?..."
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6269.msg246251#msg246251

In fact the gofundme total is now approaching £40K without any help at all from the Sun Mirror Mail Telegraph Guardian Times Independent BBC ITV and Sky.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 05, 2015, 11:30:38 AM
This case will go nowhere near the European Court of Human Rights ....


We shall see on that one.

Then again if Amaral wins his appeal, it won't be necessary. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2015, 11:31:07 AM
The judge found that it couldn't be proven that he had damaged the search. Nuance.

No nuance Carana.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 05, 2015, 11:40:07 AM
I wish to apologise to everyone for making a wrong prediction about 12 weeks ago.
Here it is
"And I am sure nobody will have any objection if the gofundme total raised increases to £40K when the Sun Mirror Mail Telegraph Guardian Times Independent BBC ITV and Sky all finally end their recent silence about it?..."
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6269.msg246251#msg246251

In fact the gofundme total is now approaching £40K without any help at all from the Sun Mirror Mail Telegraph Guardian Times Independent BBC ITV and Sky.

That's very honourable pegasus. I wonder if ferryman will follow your lead?

 Reply #1601 on: June 11, 2015, 09:40:04 AM »
Quote
That's a big if.

Even though it's possible to do far more, it shouldn't be necessary to have to do more than compare that part of the prosecutors' report which makes plain the McCanns are not guilty of any crime with the final chapter of Amaral's book, to scupper all Amaral's hopes of an appeal ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 05, 2015, 11:41:02 AM
What are the possible outcomes?

1. The ruling will be upheld as is (in which case I'm not sure what the exceptions would be in order to appeal to the Supreme Court).

2. Some points are found in his favour, which may enable him to swan off with some - or even most - of his money.

3. The ruling is overturned, in which case the McCanns will no doubt appeal.


Any other variations?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 05, 2015, 11:43:15 AM
No nuance Carana.

Who are the respondents in the appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 05, 2015, 11:58:49 AM
What are the possible outcomes?

1. The ruling will be upheld as is (in which case I'm not sure what the exceptions would be in order to appeal to the Supreme Court).

2. Some points are found in his favour, which may enable him to swan off with some - or even most - of his money.

3. The ruling is overturned, in which case the McCanns will no doubt appeal.


Any other variations?

Seems to cover most of it.

Whoever loses this appeal, will undoubtably appeal as well.

So on and on it will go...........................
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 05, 2015, 12:14:28 PM
Seems to cover most of it.

Whoever loses this appeal, will undoubtably appeal as well.

So on and on it will go...........................

Not necessarily.

In the event of No. 2 (a partial concession), both parties may decide to call it quits, depending on what any new ruling will actually state.

No. 3 (having the ruling overturned) might ironically end up being the worst provisional financial outcome for him.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 05, 2015, 12:15:46 PM
No nuance Carana.


Of course there's a nuance.  There can be no question that a book of lies sold across countries of Europe, declaring that Madeleine is definitely dead, that her parents dunit and know she's dead, that same said parents caused her death, hid her body, fabricated an 'abduction' and launched a fraudulent 'appeal' in their (dead) daughter's name, will have harmed the search for Madeleine.

Established,  beyond all doubt. 

But 'proving' it, or perhaps more accurately, quantifying it, was the tricky bit.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 05, 2015, 12:18:48 PM
Not necessarily.

In the event of No. 2 (a partial concession), both parties may decide to call it quits, depending on what any new ruling will actually state.

No. 3 (having the ruling overturned) might ironically end up being the worst provisional financial outcome for him.

We shall see.

However, if the mccanns lose their appeal, their egos will result in an appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 05, 2015, 12:26:42 PM
The judge found that it couldn't be proven that he had damaged the search. Nuance.

George Mparrbe rides again methinks! He would have said:
What you has to understand in dis case is when de judge say not proven what she really mean is dat she tink he dunnit but will not put it in her judgement.

Yeah that makes sense George.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 05, 2015, 12:27:28 PM
Some people went hundreds of miles to ensure that an ex-policeman was prevented from taking an active part in local politics.

We have discussed this on the Forum before, Pegasus, the paranoia which precipitated this obsession ignored local conditions and the fact he was not just an ex-policeman but one who carried a considerable amount of baggage with him.

The Portuguese have been making great inroads into dealing with the corruption of inspectors and local government.

The result of the appeal will be interesting nonetheless. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 05, 2015, 12:33:35 PM
We have discussed this on the Forum before, Pegasus, the paranoia which precipitated this obsession ignored local conditions and the fact he was not just an ex-policeman but one who carried a considerable amount of baggage with him.

The Portuguese have been making great inroads into dealing with the corruption of inspectors and local government.

The result of the appeal will be interesting nonetheless.

It is far from unique to Portugal.

I wonder how many people have confidence in the police  in the UK.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 05, 2015, 12:36:12 PM
a. Do UK newspapers tell lies then  iyo? How absolutely disgraceful!

b. They may have thought they had defeated him initially. His assets were frozen so he had no funds to appeal with. I expect it was quite exasperating to see the bulk of the money for his appeal being raised by UK people. That was a bit of a slap in the face, wasn't it? Of course it was only 'trolls', but who'd have thought that they (the dregs of society according to some) would have been able to raise the amount they did?

Indeed it might have been truly amazing to the Portuguese that the bulk of the money was raised by UK people for his appeal ... had they been the slightest bit interested.

Doesn't it make you wonder why there was not the same resonance among Portuguese sceptics as among British sceptics.

Perhaps some in Portugal are busy covering their tracks ... and others have seen the light being closer to the source.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 05, 2015, 12:40:58 PM
If the abductor currently being investigated by SY and the PJ hadn't stolen Madeleine McCann from her bed, Mr Amaral would not currently be making an appeal ... well not regarding this case, at least.

The perpetrator /s of the crime bear the responsibility ... not the victims.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 05, 2015, 12:44:47 PM
Indeed it might have been truly amazing to the Portuguese that the bulk of the money was raised by UK people for his appeal ... had they been the slightest bit interested.

Doesn't it make you wonder why there was not the same resonance among Portuguese sceptics as among British sceptics.

Perhaps some in Portugal are busy covering their tracks ... and others have seen the light being closer to the source.
The gofundme page is in English. Most people in Portugal speak Portuguese.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 05, 2015, 12:46:40 PM
George Mparrbe rides again methinks! He would have said:
What you has to understand in dis case is when de judge say not proven what she really mean is dat she tink he dunnit but will not put it in her judgement.

Yeah that makes sense George.

The PT system would have required countering evidence... What evidence do you think could have been produced?

- Part of the hysteria preceded his book, some of which was the result of leaks under his tenure. Convenient.

- Paiva testified that Amaral's book hadn't stopped the PJ from continuing to investigate leads. Hardly surpising, as he was the desk officer. However, no one asked him which leads he'd actually followed up on.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 05, 2015, 12:48:59 PM
The PT system would have required countering evidence... What evidence do you think could have been produced?

- Part of the hysteria preceded his book, some of which was the result of leaks under his tenure. Convenient.

- Paiva testified that Amaral's book hadn't stopped the PJ from continuing to investigate leads. Hardly surpising, as he was the desk officer. However, no one asked him which leads he'd actually followed up on.

Hysteria ?

You don't have to read Amaral's book, not to believe in the mccanns story of abduction.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 05, 2015, 12:56:04 PM
We shall see.

However, if the mccanns lose their appeal, their egos will result in an appeal.

I think they have already 'won' as far as the perception of world opinion is concerned where it is agreed that the verdict of the libel trial proved that the accusation that they had anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance is a false one.

That is reinforced by the current investigation being carried out by SY and the PJ.

I'm not as certain as you are that this appeal is going to be the success for Mr Amaral which you hope for ... and the last thing in the world he may want subsequently is the scrutiny of a European court ... bearing in mind Amnesty International opinions on another missing child case with which he had an involvement.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 05, 2015, 01:00:19 PM
Hysteria ?

You don't have to read Amaral's book, not to believe in the mccanns story of abduction.

Set the "parents-left-them-alone" issue, for a moment: what else contributed to the dunnit mental conviction aside from PJ garbled leaks, during his tenure,  prior to - but reinforced by - the spoutings of the erstwhile senior officer in the case?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 05, 2015, 01:00:42 PM
The gofundme page is in English. Most people in Portugal speak Portuguese.

      How much have the Portuguese sceptics contributed towards the (Portuguese) fund for legal expenses?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on September 05, 2015, 01:03:11 PM
      How much have the Portuguese sceptics contributed towards the (Portuguese) fund for legal expenses?

Not a lot.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 05, 2015, 01:03:28 PM
      How much have the Portuguese sceptics contributed towards the (Portuguese) fund for legal expenses?

I've never understood why a separate appeal was established in the first place.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 05, 2015, 01:17:46 PM
      How much have the Portuguese sceptics contributed towards the (Portuguese) fund for legal expenses?
It's because the gofundme format is much better at fundraising than having a seperate website.
If there was a gofundme page in Portuguese language it would have many donators IMO.
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 05, 2015, 01:18:52 PM
Set the "parents-left-them-alone" issue, for a moment: what else contributed to the dunnit mental conviction aside from PJ garbled leaks, during his tenure,  prior to - but reinforced by - the spoutings of the erstwhile senior officer in the case?

Read around.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 05, 2015, 02:33:24 PM
It's because the gofundme format is much better at fundraising than having a seperate website.
If there was a gofundme page in Portuguese language it would have many donators IMO.

              Perhaps if Portimao PT contact Ms Baulch ... she might be able to advise.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 05, 2015, 03:07:21 PM
The PT system would have required countering evidence... What evidence do you think could have been produced?

- Part of the hysteria preceded his book, some of which was the result of leaks under his tenure. Convenient.

- Paiva testified that Amaral's book hadn't stopped the PJ from continuing to investigate leads. Hardly surpising, as he was the desk officer. However, no one asked him which leads he'd actually followed up on.

The judge ruled that the plaintiffs claim the book impeded the search was not proven.
Owt else dinna matter.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 05, 2015, 03:42:34 PM
It's because the gofundme format is much better at fundraising than having a seperate website.
If there was a gofundme page in Portuguese language it would have many donators IMO.

Why?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2015, 05:31:46 PM

Of course there's a nuance.  There can be no question that a book of lies sold across countries of Europe, declaring that Madeleine is definitely dead, that her parents dunit and know she's dead, that same said parents caused her death, hid her body, fabricated an 'abduction' and launched a fraudulent 'appeal' in their (dead) daughter's name, will have harmed the search for Madeleine.

Established,  beyond all doubt. 

But 'proving' it, or perhaps more accurately, quantifying it, was the tricky bit.

It can't be established without being proven and there, as they say, is the rub !!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on September 05, 2015, 11:40:58 PM
It's because the gofundme format is much better at fundraising than having a seperate website.
If there was a gofundme page in Portuguese language it would have many donators IMO.

The GFM format is only more effective when it is Facebook verified. Why didn't one of the PJGA administrators put their own name behind it to promote the cause in both Portugal & the rest of the world?
As Ms Baulch is no longer the account holder, do contributors have any idea where their donations are even going now?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 05, 2015, 11:51:50 PM
The GFM format is only more effective when it is Facebook verified. Why didn't one of the PJGA administrators put their own name behind it to promote the cause in both Portugal & the rest of the world?
As Ms Baulch is no longer the account holder, do contributors have any idea where their donations are even going now?
£38,325 = effective
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on September 06, 2015, 12:01:27 AM
£38,325 = effective

It's only effective if the money has reached the correct destination.
Perhaps a statement from Ms Baulch about why she was "sold down the river" would be in order, just to clarify matters for the contributors.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 06, 2015, 12:23:39 AM
It's only effective if the money has reached the correct destination.
Perhaps a statement from Ms Baulch about why she was "sold down the river" would be in order, just to clarify matters for the contributors.
I challenge you to name any other fund associated with this case that gives you any indication at all how much it has received this year?
Or to name any other fund in this case which accurately states what its objects are?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on September 06, 2015, 12:29:30 AM
I challenge you to name any other fund associated with this case that gives you any indication at all how much it has received this year?
Or to name any other fund in this case which accurately states what its objects are?

Missing People?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 06, 2015, 12:43:11 AM
Aren't people interested who they are sending money to?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on September 06, 2015, 12:47:36 AM
Aren't people interested who they are sending money to?

SO who are they sending it to that means Mr Amaral or his defence team is not getting it...and do you seriously think Mr Amaral  who is a qualified lawyer and his lawyers would have been sending thank you messages if they weren't getting a penny? what are you on? Making mountains out of, well, less than molehills, not sure what a smaller thing than a molehill is though, but fits better

there been no reason to suspect anything improper going on here UNLIKE the "Madeleine Fund" but small minds will pour over as vultures over a mere 30k for someone trying to defend themselves against a Goliath  instead of 5 million plus K because they don't like the bloke!

 @)(++(*

Ps what your astute and probing mind might have selected to think about might have been why the Mccanns asked the courts IE to freeze all his money and assets this NOT enabling him to even have the ability to mount any defence to them! Despicable at best don't you think? Hardly fair and just...but then we know the Mccanns are vexatious litigants...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on September 06, 2015, 12:56:35 AM
Ok, but how about naming a fund associated only with this case, that states its aims accurately, and gives you any indication how much it has received this year?
 PJGA and PJGA gofundme qualify. Any others?.

SY/Operation Grange?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on September 06, 2015, 01:37:41 AM
SY/Operation Grange?
@)(++(*

You make me laugh misty despite me disagreeing with you in issues, Gnite

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on September 06, 2015, 09:38:46 AM
Aren't people interested who they are sending money to?

I think you would need to ask them about that. Clearly people are happy to donate, there is no coercion involved.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 06, 2015, 01:47:33 PM
I think you would need to ask them about that. Clearly people are happy to donate, there is no coercion involved.


People seemed delighted to dig into their pockets for Mr Amaral's appeal fund ... and that is their right.

It is also the right of people to donate to Madeleine's fund if that is what they wish to do ... and I cannot see how sceptics think one is fine and the other suspect ... and go on about Madeleine's fund interminably.

At least in the beginning Ms Baulch was a visible link and it may be due to her effort that to date £38000+ has been raised in contributions.  Whether or not "Portimao PC" will have the same resonance remains to  be seen.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 06, 2015, 02:01:52 PM

People seemed delighted to dig into their pockets for Mr Amaral's appeal fund ... and that is their right.

It is also the right of people to donate to Madeleine's fund if that is what they wish to do ... and I cannot see how sceptics think one is fine and the other suspect ... and go on about Madeleine's fund interminably.

At least in the beginning Ms Baulch was a visible link and it may be due to her effort that to date £38000+ has been raised in contributions.  Whether or not "Portimao PC" will have the same resonance remains to  be seen.

What have you suggested about the way  that donations to Amaral's fund  have taken place ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 07, 2015, 08:16:07 AM
Question for any legal eagles

Could you explain what this sentence means, please?


The general rule is that the appeal does not suspend the proceedings unless the appealing party pays a deposit or presents a bank guarantee.




8. Appeal

8.1 Grounds for appeal

The general rule is that a party may appeal to the court of second instance (“Tribunal da Relação”) when the value of the lawsuit is higher than EUR5,000 and the decision is unfavourable to the appealing party in an amount higher than EUR2,500.01 (Cf. Article 629 of the CPC). The court of second instance decides both on legal and factual issues.

A party may appeal to the Supreme Court when the value of the lawsuit is higher than EUR30,000 and the decision is unfavourable to the appealing party in an amount higher than EUR15,000.01.

The Supreme Court only rules on legal issues and, in most cases, cannot revoke the second instance judgment concerning the proven facts.

In most cases the parties cannot move to the Supreme Court if the first and the second instance courts have issued identical decisions with similar grounds.

The general rule is that the appeal does not suspend the proceedings unless the appealing party pays a deposit or presents a bank guarantee.



PS


Ahhh


Artigo 647.º (art.º 692.º CPC 1961)
Efeito da apelação
1 - A apelação tem efeito meramente devolutivo, exceto nos casos previstos nos números seguintes.
2 - A apelação tem efeito suspensivo do processo nos casos previstos na lei.
3 - Tem efeito suspensivo da decisão a apelação:
a) Da decisão que ponha termo ao processo em ações sobre o estado das pessoas;
b) Da decisão que ponha termo ao processo nas ações referidas nas alíneas a) e b) do n.º 3 do artigo 629.º e nas que respeitem à posse ou à propriedade de casa de habitação;
c) Do despacho de indeferimento do incidente processado por apenso;
d) Do despacho que indefira liminarmente ou não ordene a providência cautelar;
e) Das decisões previstas nas alíneas e) e f) do n.º 2 do artigo 644.º;
f) Nos demais casos previstos por lei.
4 - Fora dos casos previstos no número anterior, o recorrente pode requerer, ao interpor o recurso, que a apelação tenha efeito suspensivo quando a execução da decisão lhe cause prejuízo considerável e se ofereça para prestar caução, ficando a atribuição desse efeito condicionada à efetiva prestação da caução no prazo fixado pelo tribunal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 07, 2015, 08:45:18 AM
Question for any legal eagles

Could you explain what this sentence means, please?


The general rule is that the appeal does not suspend the proceedings unless the appealing party pays a deposit or presents a bank guarantee.




8. Appeal

8.1 Grounds for appeal

The general rule is that a party may appeal to the court of second instance (“Tribunal da Relação”) when the value of the lawsuit is higher than EUR5,000 and the decision is unfavourable to the appealing party in an amount higher than EUR2,500.01 (Cf. Article 629 of the CPC). The court of second instance decides both on legal and factual issues.

A party may appeal to the Supreme Court when the value of the lawsuit is higher than EUR30,000 and the decision is unfavourable to the appealing party in an amount higher than EUR15,000.01.

The Supreme Court only rules on legal issues and, in most cases, cannot revoke the second instance judgment concerning the proven facts.

In most cases the parties cannot move to the Supreme Court if the first and the second instance courts have issued identical decisions with similar grounds.

The general rule is that the appeal does not suspend the proceedings unless the appealing party pays a deposit or presents a bank guarantee.



PS


Ahhh


Artigo 647.º (art.º 692.º CPC 1961)
Efeito da apelação
1 - A apelação tem efeito meramente devolutivo, exceto nos casos previstos nos números seguintes.
2 - A apelação tem efeito suspensivo do processo nos casos previstos na lei.
3 - Tem efeito suspensivo da decisão a apelação:
a) Da decisão que ponha termo ao processo em ações sobre o estado das pessoas;
b) Da decisão que ponha termo ao processo nas ações referidas nas alíneas a) e b) do n.º 3 do artigo 629.º e nas que respeitem à posse ou à propriedade de casa de habitação;
c) Do despacho de indeferimento do incidente processado por apenso;
d) Do despacho que indefira liminarmente ou não ordene a providência cautelar;
e) Das decisões previstas nas alíneas e) e f) do n.º 2 do artigo 644.º;
f) Nos demais casos previstos por lei.
4 - Fora dos casos previstos no número anterior, o recorrente pode requerer, ao interpor o recurso, que a apelação tenha efeito suspensivo quando a execução da decisão lhe cause prejuízo considerável e se ofereça para prestar caução, ficando a atribuição desse efeito condicionada à efetiva prestação da caução no prazo fixado pelo tribunal.

I didn't know what "suspensive" meant ... while having a look I found this which mirrors an explanation of the appeals process given to us either by you of Jean Pierre.

 
**Snip
In most jurisdictions, the court of appeal is not at liberty to reverse any decision of the lower court (either a verdict from a jury or judge), even if they disagree with the verdict. The issue to be resolved is not whether the jury or judge was wrong, but whether the conclusions were reasonable. A lower court’s findings of fact cannot be reversed on appeal unless the appealing party, (the appellant), demonstrates that a reasonable basis does not exist for the finding of the trial court and the finding is clearly wrong. Thus, a court of appeal will usually defer to the trial court regarding factual findings and not reverse the decision unless it is manifestly erroneous.

This is also true with respect to the determination of fault. An appellate court will generally not disturb a lower court’s allocation of fault between the parties unless it too is clearly wrong or manifestly erroneous.

An appellate court will review a lower court’s determination of law without giving the deference it gives to issues of fact. Thus, unlike factual determinations, if the court of appeals disagrees with the lower court’s application of law, it can reverse the decision.
http://www.medicalmalpracticelouisiana.com/legal-process/what-are-appeals-and-when-are-they-filed
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 07, 2015, 09:00:45 AM
I didn't know what "suspensive" meant ... while having a look I found this which mirrors an explanation of the appeals process given to us either by you of Jean Pierre.

 
**Snip
In most jurisdictions, the court of appeal is not at liberty to reverse any decision of the lower court (either a verdict from a jury or judge), even if they disagree with the verdict. The issue to be resolved is not whether the jury or judge was wrong, but whether the conclusions were reasonable. A lower court’s findings of fact cannot be reversed on appeal unless the appealing party, (the appellant), demonstrates that a reasonable basis does not exist for the finding of the trial court and the finding is clearly wrong. Thus, a court of appeal will usually defer to the trial court regarding factual findings and not reverse the decision unless it is manifestly erroneous.

This is also true with respect to the determination of fault. An appellate court will generally not disturb a lower court’s allocation of fault between the parties unless it too is clearly wrong or manifestly erroneous.

An appellate court will review a lower court’s determination of law without giving the deference it gives to issues of fact. Thus, unlike factual determinations, if the court of appeals disagrees with the lower court’s application of law, it can reverse the decision.
http://www.medicalmalpracticelouisiana.com/legal-process/what-are-appeals-and-when-are-they-filed

So, only where the higher court considers the lower court has screwed up on points of law wiill it reverse the decision of the lower court (uphold an appeal).

As discussed before, Amaral has an automatic right to lodge an appeal, but not an automatic right to expect that it will be allowed, or even heard ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 07, 2015, 09:20:39 AM
So, only where the higher court considers the lower court has screwed up on points of law wiill it reverse the decision of the lower court (uphold an appeal).

As discussed before, Amaral has an automatic right to lodge an appeal, but not an automatic right to expect that it will be allowed, or even heard ....

Different jurisdiction (USA) but it looks like very similar jurisprudence to me.  I don't think Mr Amaral had any choice but to appeal if he wanted to retain any of the money he made from his book on Madeleine McCann. 

I think it is as more learned posters have said, not an appeal about the Judge's decision but about the amount of the award.  So even if Mr Amaral's appeal is allowed and he goes on to win a reduction in the amount awarded against him (which I think is unlikely) ... the money is all that will be in his favour ... his reputation remains in tatters and his lucrative career as a media pundit will have probably received a blow from which it cannot recover.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 07, 2015, 09:28:47 AM
Different jurisdiction (USA) but it looks like very similar jurisprudence to me.  I don't think Mr Amaral had any choice but to appeal if he wanted to retain any of the money he made from his book on Madeleine McCann. 

I think it is as more learned posters have said, not an appeal about the Judge's decision but about the amount of the award.  So even if Mr Amaral's appeal is allowed and he goes on to win a reduction in the amount awarded against him (which I think is unlikely) ... the money is all that will be in his favour ... his reputation remains in tatters and his lucrative career as a media pundit will have probably received a blow from which it cannot recover.

Now that's a classic.

 @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 07, 2015, 09:43:09 AM
Different jurisdiction (USA) but it looks like very similar jurisprudence to me.  I don't think Mr Amaral had any choice but to appeal if he wanted to retain any of the money he made from his book on Madeleine McCann. 

I think it is as more learned posters have said, not an appeal about the Judge's decision but about the amount of the award.  So even if Mr Amaral's appeal is allowed and he goes on to win a reduction in the amount awarded against him (which I think is unlikely) ... the money is all that will be in his favour ... his reputation remains in tatters and his lucrative career as a media pundit will have probably received a blow from which it cannot recover.

Good summary.

Do the people blindly pouring money into his gofundme account know?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 07, 2015, 09:49:57 AM
Now that's a classic.

 @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

I've submitted myself to a wee bit of reading in the attempt to be informed about events;  from that I have reached particular conclusions.

You may have reached different conclusions but with all due respect you appear to have nothing to support them.  Nice of you to think my reasoning can be rather 'classic' at times, so thanks for that.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 07, 2015, 09:57:37 AM
For what its worth, my thoughts on the news of Amaral's appeal are as follows:

Under Portuguese law, Amaral has a right to appeal the decision of the court, as is right and proper.

There are three possibilities:




The wording of the court documents that the appeal does not stay the decision. To understand this one need to consider the differences between English civil law and European civil law.

In simple terms:

In England, one must seek permission to appeal. If granted, then execution of the decision of the lower count is suspended until the appeal is heard.

In Europe, including Portugal, the right to appeal is automatic. But execution of the decision is not suspended.

There is a logic in this if you look for it.

In England, one must demonstrate pretty sound grounds for an appeal, and it is therefore logical that the judgement is suspended until the appeal is heard.

In Europe, the right to appeal is automatic (although one must show the grounds upon which the appeal is based - not a very high hurdle). But judgement is not suspended - this is to prevent a losing party using the appeals process to "kick the can down the road" for a few months.
_________

What does it mean for this case? Under English law Amaral would have had to show specific grounds for his appeal. And if granted the court decision to ban the book and DVD may have been suspended.

Under Portuguese law, the appeal is in effect a matter of course, and in the meantime the decision to ban book and DVD sales holds.

Hope this helps!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 07, 2015, 10:04:53 AM
So, only where the higher court considers the lower court has screwed up on points of law wiill it reverse the decision of the lower court (uphold an appeal).

As discussed before, Amaral has an automatic right to lodge an appeal, but not an automatic right to expect that it will be allowed, or even heard ....

Providing that the formalities have been fulfilled, it would seem difficult to refuse an appeal.

In Portugal, an appeal can be based on a dispute of fact and / or law.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on September 07, 2015, 10:17:49 AM
I've submitted myself to a wee bit of reading in the attempt to be informed about events;  from that I have reached particular conclusions.

You may have reached different conclusions but with all due respect you appear to have nothing to support them.  Nice of you to think my reasoning can be rather 'classic' at times, so thanks for that.

I don't believe that the law practices in Louisiana USA apply to the country of Portugal. AFAIK, any higher court here can reverse the decision of a lower court. Just recently, a woman had been acquitted of killing her husband's grandmother but a higher court reversed the verdict and convicted her. This decision has now been appealed by the defendant. From this example, you can see, in Portugal, someone can be acquitted and the public prosecutor can appeal the acquittal. This is not allowed in the USA.

Jean-Pierre: Thanks for the info. I believe however that the judge stated in her verdict that the application of the book ban and subsequent fines would only be carried out once all appeals had been exhausted (transito em julgado). Correct me if I am wrong.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 07, 2015, 10:18:29 AM
I've submitted myself to a wee bit of reading in the attempt to be informed about events;  from that I have reached particular conclusions.

You may have reached different conclusions but with all due respect you appear to have nothing to support them.  Nice of you to think my reasoning can be rather 'classic' at times, so thanks for that.

You are merely giving your expected views based on your bias and your dislike of Amaral.

and before you say it, I don't worship Amaral, and he made some mistakes. However, no one as far as I can see has disproved the accidental death hypothesis.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 07, 2015, 10:31:31 AM
I don't believe that the law practices in Louisiana USA apply to the country of Portugal. AFAIK, any higher court here can reverse the decision of a lower court. Just recently, a woman had been acquitted of killing her husband's grandmother but a higher court reversed the verdict and convicted her. This decision has now been appealed by the defendant. From this example, you can see, in Portugal, someone can be acquitted and the public prosecutor can appeal the acquittal. This is not allowed in the USA.

Jean-Pierre: Thanks for the info. I believe however that the judge stated in her verdict that the application of the book ban and subsequent fines would only be carried out once all appeals had been exhausted (transito em julgado). Correct me if I am wrong.

AFAIK Montclair The book ban was effective immediately.

The money judgement - well, the funds currently held by the court are more than sufficient to meet the judgement, so no need to ring fence any further assets.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 07, 2015, 10:57:52 AM
I don't believe that the law practices in Louisiana USA apply to the country of Portugal. AFAIK, any higher court here can reverse the decision of a lower court. Just recently, a woman had been acquitted of killing her husband's grandmother but a higher court reversed the verdict and convicted her. This decision has now been appealed by the defendant. From this example, you can see, in Portugal, someone can be acquitted and the public prosecutor can appeal the acquittal. This is not allowed in the USA.

Jean-Pierre: Thanks for the info. I believe however that the judge stated in her verdict that the application of the book ban and subsequent fines would only be carried out once all appeals had been exhausted (transito em julgado). Correct me if I am wrong.


From what I think I've understood is that terms of reparation don't have to be executed until the end of the appeals process (unless there are exceptional circumstances, which may be subject to other annexe proceedings).

The book / DVD ban may be a separate issue. That would require double-checking on his licensing agreement again and whether the others (publishers, etc.) are active participants or not.

Amaral's main issue is about attempting to be able to keep his substantial financial gains (or a proportion of them).

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on September 07, 2015, 11:24:37 AM

Is there not a fine to be imposed if The Court Directives are not adhered to?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 07, 2015, 12:33:47 PM
I don't believe that the law practices in Louisiana USA apply to the country of Portugal. AFAIK, any higher court here can reverse the decision of a lower court. Just recently, a woman had been acquitted of killing her husband's grandmother but a higher court reversed the verdict and convicted her. This decision has now been appealed by the defendant. From this example, you can see, in Portugal, someone can be acquitted and the public prosecutor can appeal the acquittal. This is not allowed in the USA.

Jean-Pierre: Thanks for the info. I believe however that the judge stated in her verdict that the application of the book ban and subsequent fines would only be carried out once all appeals had been exhausted (transito em julgado). Correct me if I am wrong.

Thank you Montclair.  Yes the case to which you refer was a strange one indeed ... it will be interesting indeed to find out what the outcome will be.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 07, 2015, 12:50:08 PM
You are merely giving your expected views based on your bias and your dislike of Amaral.

and before you say it, I don't worship Amaral, and he made some mistakes. However, no one as far as I can see has disproved the accidental death hypothesis.

I find it extraordinary that you think opinions must be formed because of animus to an individual.  I have strong opinions concerning Mr Amaral actions ... about the man personally I have no particular feeling of dislike, for the simple reason I don't need to have one.

His actions do not impinge in any way on me or my family ... nor do I know a great deal about him personally ... so why would I dislike a person I do not know.
I would appreciate it if you would refrain from reiterating that I have any personal feeling of animosity towards the man, as I do not, it is his actions and the consequences of those that I criticise.  Maybe a little 'grown up' debate is in order here.

Is there any particular reason you can give for the adulation surrounding Mr Amaral which gives him one might say a cult status if the comments attached to his fund to appeal the decision of the Portuguese Court are anything to go by?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 07, 2015, 01:25:22 PM
I find it extraordinary that you think opinions must be formed because of animus to an individual.  I have strong opinions concerning Mr Amaral actions ... about the man personally I have no particular feeling of dislike, for the simple reason I don't need to have one.

His actions do not impinge in any way on me or my family ... nor do I know a great deal about him personally ... so why would I dislike a person I do not know.
I would appreciate it if you would refrain from reiterating that I have any personal feeling of animosity towards the man, as I do not, it is his actions and the consequences of those that I criticise.  Maybe a little 'grown up' debate is in order here.

Is there any particular reason you can give for the adulation surrounding Mr Amaral which gives him one might say a cult status if the comments attached to his fund to appeal the decision of the Portuguese Court are anything to go by?

You give your opinions all the time, along with a great deal of copying and pasting material.

You frequently give your opinions of other posters and have this rather quaint idea that only mccann supporters have a moral standpoint on this case.

As to cult status, I see that with the following the mccanns have from certain parties.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 07, 2015, 01:37:03 PM
You give your opinions all the time, along with a great deal of copying and pasting material.

You frequently give your opinions of other posters and have this rather quaint idea that only mccann supporters have a moral standpoint on this case.

As to cult status, I see that with the following the mccanns have from certain parties.

As do we all, Stephen, including your good self.  This is a forum and its really rather the whole point.

If nobody expressed an opinion, then it would be a pretty dull place!  8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 07, 2015, 01:46:57 PM
As do we all, Stephen, including your good self.  This is a forum and its really rather the whole point.

If nobody expressed an opinion, then it would be a pretty dull place!  8(0(*

Very true JP.

What I have a problem with is those who deny their opinions on the case aren't biased by their stance.

That doesn't include you, as you are clear in your views.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 07, 2015, 01:48:13 PM
It appears to have been referred to the higher court.

What the appeals court will make of it remains to be seen.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 07, 2015, 01:58:15 PM
It appears to have been referred to the higher court.

What the appeals court will make of it remains to be seen.

Where did you see that Carana ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 07, 2015, 02:00:48 PM
It appears to have been referred to the higher court.

What the appeals court will make of it remains to be seen.

We will just have to be patient ... although I think it appears to be progressing quite speedily taking the recess into consideration ... so maybe not too long to wait.
Maybe by that time we will know what the latest ILOR is all about too.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 07, 2015, 02:05:37 PM
Where did you see that Carana ?


That's my understanding of the recent document posted on the PJGA site:

The right to appeal appears to have been granted by the lower court, which now goes to the appeals court to consider.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 07, 2015, 02:10:43 PM

That's my understanding of the recent document posted on the PJGA site:

The right to appeal appears to have been granted by the lower court, which now goes to the appeals court to consider.

Link here

http://pjga.blogspot.nl/2015/09/confirmation.html

"the case proceedings will be sent to the Tribunal da Relação de Lisboa on the 10.07.2015."

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 07, 2015, 02:19:04 PM
Link here

http://pjga.blogspot.nl/2015/09/confirmation.html

"the case proceedings will be sent to the Tribunal da Relação de Lisboa on the 10.07.2015."

Yes. That's what I've gathered as well.

A pending question is what is actually meant by it only being sent to the appeals tribunal a month from now... unless that's an obscure way of wording that that is the date on which it will be considered by a venerable triumvirate over laptops and coffee.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 07, 2015, 02:26:34 PM
Yes. That's what I've gathered as well.

A pending question is what is actually meant by it only being sent to the appeals tribunal a month from now... unless that's an obscure way of wording that that is the date on which it will be considered by a venerable triumvirate over laptops and coffee.

God knows. 

But I imagine it will be sent over in a month and then tabled for hearing a few weeks later.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 07, 2015, 02:39:13 PM
I believe there is a backlog of cases in Portugal.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on September 07, 2015, 03:00:14 PM
I believe there is a backlog of cases in Portugal.

ORLY.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 07, 2015, 03:03:55 PM
God knows. 

But I imagine it will be sent over in a month and then tabled for hearing a few weeks later.

The PT postal services can't be that impaired, surely?

Would this appeals "hearing" involve anyone other than the judges poring over documents already submitted?

If not, 7 October might be when three judges have a moment to confer.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 07, 2015, 03:52:00 PM
The PT postal services can't be that impaired, surely?

Would this appeals "hearing" involve anyone other than the judges poring over documents already submitted?

If not, 7 October might be when three judges have a moment to confer.

I have no idea.  It may well be that it takes a month to collate the case and prepare for the court to consider it.

And then a few weeks for the consideration of the written evidence, followed by an announcement at end of this year / beginning of next year.

So don't hold your breath. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on September 07, 2015, 04:07:37 PM
@Jean-Pierre
What would happen to the frozen assets if Amaral filed to be declared bankrupt now?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 07, 2015, 04:08:39 PM
I have no idea.  It may well be that it takes a month to collate the case and prepare for the court to consider it.

And then a few weeks for the consideration of the written evidence, followed by an announcement at end of this year / beginning of next year.

So don't hold your breath.

Have you seen the written evidence in your perusal of the first-instance court ruling?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 07, 2015, 04:13:17 PM
Have you seen the written evidence in your perusal of the first-instance court ruling?

I have seen the first instance ruling.

Which bits are you referring to, FM?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 07, 2015, 04:25:30 PM
I have seen the first instance ruling.

Which bits are you referring to, FM?

The written submissions, which I have always assumed not to have been revealed on line?

ETA: I have always tended to assume that that made available on line (of the whole judgment) is a comparatively small segment, and that that the bulk of the judgment is, in fact, contained in written submissions.

Am I wrong about that?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 07, 2015, 04:34:26 PM
The written submissions, which I have always assumed not to have been revealed on line?

ETA: I have always tended to assume that that made available on line (of the whole judgment) is a comparatively small segment, and that that the bulk of the judgment is, in fact, contained in written submissions.

Am I wrong about that?

Happily not.  I get enough reading matter as part of the daily grind.  ?{)(**

The judgement is actually pretty comprehensive and gives the jist of the reasons behind the judgement. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 07, 2015, 04:37:30 PM
Thank you ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 09, 2015, 10:44:19 AM
For what its worth, my thoughts on the news of Amaral's appeal are as follows:

Under Portuguese law, Amaral has a right to appeal the decision of the court, as is right and proper.

There are three possibilities:

  • That the appeal count will agree the original verdict in which case no further appeals will be allowed

    That the appeal court modify the verdict, in which either party can appeal.

    That the appeal count overturn the original verdict, in which either party can appeal (probably the McCanns)



The wording of the court documents that the appeal does not stay the decision. To understand this one need to consider the differences between English civil law and European civil law.

In simple terms:

In England, one must seek permission to appeal. If granted, then execution of the decision of the lower count is suspended until the appeal is heard.

In Europe, including Portugal, the right to appeal is automatic. But execution of the decision is not suspended.

There is a logic in this if you look for it.

In England, one must demonstrate pretty sound grounds for an appeal, and it is therefore logical that the judgement is suspended until the appeal is heard.

In Europe, the right to appeal is automatic (although one must show the grounds upon which the appeal is based - not a very high hurdle). But judgement is not suspended - this is to prevent a losing party using the appeals process to "kick the can down the road" for a few months.
_________

What does it mean for this case? Under English law Amaral would have had to show specific grounds for his appeal. And if granted the court decision to ban the book and DVD may have been suspended.

Under Portuguese law, the appeal is in effect a matter of course, and in the meantime the decision to ban book and DVD sales holds.

Hope this helps!

I have a doubt about something though.

The terms of reparation aren't enforceable until the final ruling is pronounced (trânsito em julgado), are they?

I confess I'm having trouble deciphering the details of Art. 647 below, but the gist seems to be along the lines of something you'd originally found that I didn't understand at the time either:

The general rule is that the appeal does not suspend the proceedings unless the appealing party pays a deposit or presents a bank guarantee.'

FWIW, my understanding at the moment is that there could be confusion: what could be suspended in some circumstances is the decision to grant the appeal request.

The bank guarantee is to make sure that the appellant isn't mucking about, but has a genuine cause for concern that needs time to be validated prior to appeal referral.

If that's correct, the "execution of the judgement" doesn't refer to the execution of the terms of reparation, but to the a quo court's ruling to refer the case upwards.

In Amaral's appeal, nothing new of earth-shattering importance had suddenly come to light, and the a quo court hadn't summarily dismissed his request... so there was no reason to suspend the decision to pass it up.

Artigo 647.º (art.º 692.º CPC 1961)
Efeito da apelação
1 - A apelação tem efeito meramente devolutivo, exceto nos casos previstos nos números seguintes.
2 - A apelação tem efeito suspensivo do processo nos casos previstos na lei.
3 - Tem efeito suspensivo da decisão a apelação:
a) Da decisão que ponha termo ao processo em ações sobre o estado das pessoas;
b) Da decisão que ponha termo ao processo nas ações referidas nas alíneas a) e b) do n.º 3 do artigo 629.º e nas que respeitem à posse ou à propriedade de casa de habitação;
c) Do despacho de indeferimento do incidente processado por apenso;
d) Do despacho que indefira liminarmente ou não ordene a providência cautelar;
e) Das decisões previstas nas alíneas e) e f) do n.º 2 do artigo 644.º;
f) Nos demais casos previstos por lei.
4 - Fora dos casos previstos no número anterior, o recorrente pode requerer, ao interpor o recurso, que a apelação tenha efeito suspensivo quando a execução da decisão lhe cause prejuízo considerável e se ofereça para prestar caução, ficando a atribuição desse efeito condicionada à efetiva prestação da caução no prazo fixado pelo tribunal.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 09, 2015, 11:49:03 AM
I have a doubt about something though.

The terms of reparation aren't enforceable until the final ruling is pronounced (trânsito em julgado), are they?

I confess I'm having trouble deciphering the details of Art. 647 below, but the gist seems to be along the lines of something you'd originally found that I didn't understand at the time either:

The general rule is that the appeal does not suspend the proceedings unless the appealing party pays a deposit or presents a bank guarantee.'

FWIW, my understanding at the moment is that there could be confusion: what could be suspended in some circumstances is the decision to grant the appeal request.

The bank guarantee is to make sure that the appellant isn't mucking about, but has a genuine cause for concern that needs time to be validated prior to appeal referral.

If that's correct, the "execution of the judgement" doesn't refer to the execution of the terms of reparation, but to the a quo court's ruling to refer the case upwards.

In Amaral's appeal, nothing new of earth-shattering importance had suddenly come to light, and the a quo court hadn't summarily dismissed his request... so there was no reason to suspend the decision to pass it up.

Artigo 647.º (art.º 692.º CPC 1961)
Efeito da apelação
1 - A apelação tem efeito meramente devolutivo, exceto nos casos previstos nos números seguintes.
2 - A apelação tem efeito suspensivo do processo nos casos previstos na lei.
3 - Tem efeito suspensivo da decisão a apelação:
a) Da decisão que ponha termo ao processo em ações sobre o estado das pessoas;
b) Da decisão que ponha termo ao processo nas ações referidas nas alíneas a) e b) do n.º 3 do artigo 629.º e nas que respeitem à posse ou à propriedade de casa de habitação;
c) Do despacho de indeferimento do incidente processado por apenso;
d) Do despacho que indefira liminarmente ou não ordene a providência cautelar;
e) Das decisões previstas nas alíneas e) e f) do n.º 2 do artigo 644.º;
f) Nos demais casos previstos por lei.
4 - Fora dos casos previstos no número anterior, o recorrente pode requerer, ao interpor o recurso, que a apelação tenha efeito suspensivo quando a execução da decisão lhe cause prejuízo considerável e se ofereça para prestar caução, ficando a atribuição desse efeito condicionada à efetiva prestação da caução no prazo fixado pelo tribunal.


A fair point Carana.  However, the proceedings in question are the decision by the lower court.

In practice, the ban on the Book and DVD hold, and the court are already holding more than enough money to pay the damages and court fees owing. 

So these will remain in place until the appeal is heard. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 09, 2015, 01:24:34 PM
A fair point Carana.  However, the proceedings in question are the decision by the lower court.

In practice, the ban on the Book and DVD hold, and the court are already holding more than enough money to pay the damages and court fees owing. 

So these will remain in place until the appeal is heard.


LOL I'm still confused.

Yes, the proceedings concern the decision by the lower court - it's the lower court that has to stamp the referral. The question is which decision is referred to in Art. 647 et al.

The book / DVD / derivative products saga seems to be history. Amaral doesn't hold the copyright licence anyway.

If the decision referred to the execution of the first instance judgement concerning terms of reparation, Amaral's frozen assets would have had to have been handed over to the McCanns... which doesn't make sense until the appeals process has come to its final conclusion.

Maybe I'm missing something...

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 09, 2015, 03:11:19 PM

LOL I'm still confused.

Yes, the proceedings concern the decision by the lower court - it's the lower court that has to stamp the referral. The question is which decision is referred to in Art. 647 et al.

The book / DVD / derivative products saga seems to be history. Amaral doesn't hold the copyright licence anyway.

If the decision referred to the execution of the first instance judgement concerning terms of reparation, Amaral's frozen assets would have had to have been handed over to the McCanns... which doesn't make sense until the appeals process has come to its final conclusion.

Maybe I'm missing something...

No wonder you are confused!

Right, lets try.

Article 647.

Paragraph 1 applies - no suspensive effect.

Unless

Paragraph two applies - to suspend the judgement (you need to refer to paragraph 4 for this).

Or paragraph three applies - to suspend the judgement due to one or more of specific provisions-

Probably section (d) The order dismissing outright or not to order the injunction;

This needs consideration of paragraph 4 - Where the provisions state that if the judgement is not suspended pending the appeal "would cause considerable damage and offer to provide a guarantee and the granting of this conditional effect to the effective deposit the bond within the time allowed".

In other words the appeal does not have a suspensive effect unless not to suspend it would cause considerable damage, in which case the applicant may offer to lodge a guarantee (i.e. hard cash) with the court in lieu.  As you said earlier - to make sure they are not mucking about. 

For this to apply, Amaral's lawyer would have needed to ask the court to suspend the judgement.  It does look from the wordings as though he did not make such a request.  Hmmm.



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 09, 2015, 03:23:57 PM
No wonder you are confused!

Right, lets try.

Article 647.

Paragraph 1 applies - no suspensive effect.

Unless

Paragraph two applies - to suspend the judgement (you need to refer to paragraph 4 for this).

Or paragraph three applies - to suspend the judgement due to one or more of specific provisions-

Probably section (d) The order dismissing outright or not to order the injunction;

This needs consideration of paragraph 4 - Where the provisions state that if the judgement is not suspended pending the appeal "would cause considerable damage and offer to provide a guarantee and the granting of this conditional effect to the effective deposit the bond within the time allowed".

In other words the appeal does not have a suspensive effect unless not to suspend it would cause considerable damage, in which case the applicant may offer to lodge a guarantee (i.e. hard cash) with the court in lieu.  As you said earlier - to make sure they are not mucking about. 

For this to apply, Amaral's lawyer would have needed to ask the court to suspend the judgement.  It does look from the wordings as though he did not make such a request.  Hmmm.

The only part of that which has penetrated (I think) is that apparently the Judgement has not been appealed ... which leaves only the amount of the award to be argued about.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 09, 2015, 03:36:20 PM
The only part of that which has penetrated (I think) is that apparently the Judgement has not been appealed ... which leaves only the amount of the award to be argued about.

Sorry - no.  The nature of the appeal is unknown.

It appears that the judgement has not been suspended while the appeal is in process.

In practice this means that Amaral cannot publish or sell his book or DVD.  The court is already holding the dosh.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 09, 2015, 03:38:08 PM
No wonder you are confused!

Right, lets try.

Article 647.

Paragraph 1 applies - no suspensive effect.

Unless

Paragraph two applies - to suspend the judgement (you need to refer to paragraph 4 for this).

Or paragraph three applies - to suspend the judgement due to one or more of specific provisions-

Probably section (d) The order dismissing outright or not to order the injunction;

This needs consideration of paragraph 4 - Where the provisions state that if the judgement is not suspended pending the appeal "would cause considerable damage and offer to provide a guarantee and the granting of this conditional effect to the effective deposit the bond within the time allowed".

In other words the appeal does not have a suspensive effect unless not to suspend it would cause considerable damage, in which case the applicant may offer to lodge a guarantee (i.e. hard cash) with the court in lieu.  As you said earlier - to make sure they are not mucking about. 

For this to apply, Amaral's lawyer would have needed to ask the court to suspend the judgement.  It does look from the wordings as though he did not make such a request.  Hmmm.

I find this funny. I think we've got wires crossed at the moment on this.

It's academic anyway, as it's gone the "meramente devolutivo" route - i.e. para 1.

I was trying to work out why some people are wondering why he didn't apply for a suspension - and I can't find anything to support why he would have wanted to.

They may have assumed that applying for a suspension might have meant that he didn't need to hand over his gains.... but a) that doesn't appear to be what a potential suspension concerns, and b) even the complex PT system isn't going to make compensation change hands every time one party lodges an appeal.

One possibility might have been if the accruing interest could have have benefited from a moratorium via a "suspension"... but that wouldn't apply as the suspension concept simply appears to concern staying the referral pending clarification of issues, which doesn't appear to be the case in this instance.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 09, 2015, 03:43:34 PM
The only part of that which has penetrated (I think) is that apparently the Judgement has not been appealed ... which leaves only the amount of the award to be argued about.

Don't think so, Brietta.

You have to have some grounds in order to dispute the amount. How do you do that without disputing either points of fact or law on which the ruling is based?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 09, 2015, 03:44:51 PM
Sorry - no.  The nature of the appeal is unknown.

It appears that the judgement has not been suspended while the appeal is in process.

In practice this means that Amaral cannot publish or sell his book or DVD.  The court is already holding the dosh.

Thanks JP.  I've got it now. 
Will just have to be patient ... look forward to you keeping us up to speed when you do know what is happening in court ... very simple language please with me in mind though.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 09, 2015, 03:53:05 PM
Don't think so, Brietta.

You have to have some grounds in order to dispute the amount. How do you do that without disputing either points of fact or law on which the ruling is based?

It is going to be a lot messier than I had thought, Carana, and more time consuming which is a great pity.

I'm just going to watch you and JP discuss what happens when it happens and pick up what is going on from there.

Expect to be asked for clarifications of what is happening because quite simply I haven't a clue about the law.  It may be Just but imo it isn't logical.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 09, 2015, 04:15:58 PM
It is going to be a lot messier than I had thought, Carana, and more time consuming which is a great pity.

I'm just going to watch you and JP discuss what happens when it happens and pick up what is going on from there.

Expect to be asked for clarifications of what is happening because quite simply I haven't a clue about the law.  It may be Just but imo it isn't logical.

I'm not a lawyer, btw. I'm just trying to peer into the mysteries of PT law out of curiosity.

There is a logic, but not as we know it.

(Cue Twilight Zone).

Here's a puzzle that took me a while to work out: you could be convicted of murder and be serving a life sentence, yet still be an arguido.

There's a logic.... Seriously.

What's the answer to the puzzle?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 09, 2015, 04:27:58 PM
It is going to be a lot messier than I had thought, Carana, and more time consuming which is a great pity.

I'm just going to watch you and JP discuss what happens when it happens and pick up what is going on from there.

Expect to be asked for clarifications of what is happening because quite simply I haven't a clue about the law.  It may be Just but imo it isn't logical.

I am going to make a prediction here - a veritable hostage to fortune.

I think it will be quite straightforward and not very messy.  I predict that the appeal will agree with the original verdict.

My reasoning? The appeal can only overturn the verdict on the grounds of proven facts or points of law.  Assuming that the proven facts are not in dispute (having been covered during the trial) so that leaves points of law.  The verdict turned on Amarals requirement to keep his trap shut about cases he was involved in, and in particular not to make accusations about named people involved.  And this is pretty much a universal feature of police and judicial services. 

The verdict was actually quite balanced - something to the McCanns and bit left over for Amaral's creditiors.   

I expect this aspect to be wrapped up by Christmas, and then he can whine about taking the case to the ECHR......     

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 09, 2015, 04:28:09 PM
I'm not a lawyer, btw. I'm just trying to peer into the mysteries of PT law out of curiosity.

There is a logic, but not as we know it.

(Cue Twilight Zone).

Here's a puzzle that took me a while to work out: you could be convicted of murder and be serving a life sentence, yet still be an arguido.

There's a logic.... Seriously.

What's the answer to the puzzle?

An arguido in another unrelated case?

That won't be correct ... it is Anna and Pegasus who solve the puzzles, I'm rubbish at it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 09, 2015, 04:35:46 PM
An arguido in another unrelated case?

That won't be correct ... it is Anna and Pegasus who solve the puzzles, I'm rubbish at it.

Nope. Same case. Someone is in jail serving life (or rather the maximum sentence), yet that person can still be an arguido.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 09, 2015, 04:36:36 PM
I am going to make a prediction here - a veritable hostage to fortune.

I think it will be quite straightforward and not very messy.  I predict that the appeal will agree with the original verdict.

My reasoning? The appeal can only overturn the verdict on the grounds of proven facts or points of law.  Assuming that the proven facts are not in dispute (having been covered during the trial) so that leaves points of law.  The verdict turned on Amarals requirement to keep his trap shut about cases he was involved in, and in particular not to make accusations about named people involved.  And this is pretty much a universal feature of police and judicial services. 

The verdict was actually quite balanced - something to the McCanns and bit left over for Amaral's creditiors.   

I expect this aspect to be wrapped up by Christmas, and then he can whine about taking the case to the ECHR......   

I think that would be a fair result and one to be hoped for (remember the 14-18 war was to be over by Christmas too).  But fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 09, 2015, 04:48:17 PM
I am going to make a prediction here - a veritable hostage to fortune.

I think it will be quite straightforward and not very messy.  I predict that the appeal will agree with the original verdict.

My reasoning? The appeal can only overturn the verdict on the grounds of proven facts or points of law.  Assuming that the proven facts are not in dispute (having been covered during the trial) so that leaves points of law.  The verdict turned on Amarals requirement to keep his trap shut about cases he was involved in, and in particular not to make accusations about named people involved.  And this is pretty much a universal feature of police and judicial services. 

The verdict was actually quite balanced - something to the McCanns and bit left over for Amaral's creditiors.   

I expect this aspect to be wrapped up by Christmas, and then he can whine about taking the case to the ECHR......   


You forgot the Supreme Court, naughty boy!


Seriously... I think his main point of contention will be whether the judicial service shut up clause applied to him or not, once retired (there are some waffly bits concerning expectations of retired staff) and, if it did, whether it's of the same hierarchical nature as his right to freedom of expression.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 09, 2015, 04:54:00 PM
I am going to make a prediction here - a veritable hostage to fortune.

I think it will be quite straightforward and not very messy.  I predict that the appeal will agree with the original verdict.

My reasoning? The appeal can only overturn the verdict on the grounds of proven facts or points of law.  Assuming that the proven facts are not in dispute (having been covered during the trial) so that leaves points of law.  The verdict turned on Amarals requirement to keep his trap shut about cases he was involved in, and in particular not to make accusations about named people involved.  And this is pretty much a universal feature of police and judicial services. 

The verdict was actually quite balanced - something to the McCanns and bit left over for Amaral's creditiors.   

I expect this aspect to be wrapped up by Christmas, and then he can whine about taking the case to the ECHR......   
IMO it is not impossible that Mr Amaral's opponents will concede before the appeal is decided.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 09, 2015, 04:58:26 PM
IMO it is not impossible that Mr Amaral's opponents will concede before the appeal is decided.

Why?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 09, 2015, 05:07:03 PM
IMO it is not impossible that Mr Amaral's opponents will concede before the appeal is decided.
Concede what??!  That they'd made a terrible mistake and that Amaral wasn't a rotter after all?!  I don't think so somehow!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 09, 2015, 05:20:42 PM
Concede what??!  That they'd made a terrible mistake and that Amaral wasn't a rotter after all?!  I don't think so somehow!
A spokesperson recently emphasised the importance of having huge chunks of money ready to immediately finance a private search in case SY fail to solve the case. Every thousand pounds spent on lawyers on this libel case is a thousand pounds less available for that possible future search.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 09, 2015, 05:31:41 PM
A spokesperson recently emphasised the importance of having huge chunks of money ready to immediately finance a private search in case SY fail to solve the case. Every thousand pounds spent on lawyers on this libel case is a thousand pounds less available for that possible future search.

It is good to have a contingency plan, but I am hopeful it will not be needed if as seems probable the PJ and SY investigations are bearing fruit.  Also any future family search is unlikely to be on the scale of the previous ones.

I think Mr Amaral could have salvaged a measure of dignity by accepting the judgement of the court and concentrating on getting his life back on track by foregoing his right to appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 09, 2015, 05:42:33 PM
A spokesperson recently emphasised the importance of having huge chunks of money ready to immediately finance a private search in case SY fail to solve the case. Every thousand pounds spent on lawyers on this libel case is a thousand pounds less available for that possible future search.

Ok. I think I see your point, even though I don't agree with it.

Shutting him up may now be less important than it was.

This saga started before the Met had agreed to take a review, let alone open an investigation. Whether the Met decision influenced the PT authorities or not, they reopened the investigation as well.

Prior to the (re)opening of the investigation, the message was that there was no point looking for this missing child. And some people keep regurgitating either his words of (non) wisdom, or PJ leaks during his tenure.

What's a few thousand pounds to take this to its conclusion? Not only for Madeleine, but for others who are influenced by the nonsensical opinions of so-called "experts"?


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 09, 2015, 05:52:30 PM
It is good to have a contingency plan, but I am hopeful it will not be needed if as seems probable the PJ and SY investigations are bearing fruit.  Also any future family search is unlikely to be on the scale of the previous ones.

I think Mr Amaral could have salvaged a measure of dignity by accepting the judgement of the court and concentrating on getting his life back on track by foregoing his right to appeal.

He made more money (if he gets to keep it) in under two years than the average working person would be able to save in a lifetime. All on the back of dismissing a missing child as potentially findable, when he didn't even understand the evidence.

I doubt that he'll give that up without a fight.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on September 09, 2015, 06:13:36 PM
He made more money (if he gets to keep it) in under two years than the average working person would be able to save in a lifetime. All on the back of dismissing a missing child as potentially findable, when he didn't even understand the evidence.

I doubt that he'll give that up without a fight.

That has really upset me, yet again.  But there you go.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 09, 2015, 06:15:53 PM
A spokesperson recently emphasised the importance of having huge chunks of money ready to immediately finance a private search in case SY fail to solve the case. Every thousand pounds spent on lawyers on this libel case is a thousand pounds less available for that possible future search.
Perhaps the McCanns' supporters should start a legal aid fund for them then then. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 09, 2015, 07:23:57 PM
I am going to make a prediction here - a veritable hostage to fortune.

I think it will be quite straightforward and not very messy.  I predict that the appeal will agree with the original verdict.

My reasoning? The appeal can only overturn the verdict on the grounds of proven facts or points of law.  Assuming that the proven facts are not in dispute (having been covered during the trial) so that leaves points of law.  The verdict turned on Amarals requirement to keep his trap shut about cases he was involved in, and in particular not to make accusations about named people involved.  And this is pretty much a universal feature of police and judicial services. 

The verdict was actually quite balanced - something to the McCanns and bit left over for Amaral's creditiors.   

I expect this aspect to be wrapped up by Christmas, and then he can whine about taking the case to the ECHR......   

an excellent and totally logical post
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 09, 2015, 10:11:41 PM
Perhaps the McCanns' supporters should start a legal aid fund for them then then.
There is a difference between donating money to defend people accused in a criminal case (which is the situation RB and others anticipated and offered money for in Sept 2007), and donating money to pay for initiating a libel case and pursuing it for 6 or more years, probably at a cost of hundreds of thousands.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 09, 2015, 10:26:29 PM
Ok. I think I see your point, even though I don't agree with it.

Shutting him up may now be less important than it was.

This saga started before the Met had agreed to take a review, let alone open an investigation. Whether the Met decision influenced the PT authorities or not, they reopened the investigation as well.

Prior to the (re)opening of the investigation, the message was that there was no point looking for this missing child. And some people keep regurgitating either his words of (non) wisdom, or PJ leaks during his tenure.

What's a few thousand pounds to take this to its conclusion? Not only for Madeleine, but for others who are influenced by the nonsensical opinions of so-called "experts"?
Good post. The dilemma for the directors of MFLNSUL is this: the moment SY opened their investigation, the argument which goes something like "suing Amaral is actually searching, because his book stops people searching" became much less convincing.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on September 09, 2015, 10:33:49 PM
Good post. The dilemma for the directors of MFLNSUL is this: the moment SY opened their investigation, the argument which goes something like "suing Amaral is actually searching, because his book stops people searching" became much less convincing.
Even before that their argument was weak for many reasons why have been gone over before and never possible to substantiate
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 09, 2015, 10:53:46 PM
Good post. The dilemma for the directors of MFLNSUL is this: the moment SY opened their investigation, the argument which goes something like "suing Amaral is actually searching, because his book stops people searching" became much less convincing.

Even now that the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance is embedded in a very active police investigation there are those who agitate constantly about the costs and personnel who they think could be better used elsewhere.

The same people agitated constantly against the review undertaken which revealed the information that enabled the reopening of Madeleine's case. The same people who pulled every trick in the book to impede her parents continuing the search for her after the case was archived 2008 and to impede their efforts to have her case looked at and reopened.

The Drs McCann have pulled off something which is little short of a miracle with the reopening of Madeleine's case ... all the time having the added burden of Mr Amaral's book and Mr Amaral's supporters to contend with.

The libel action was begun in 2009.  Madeleine's case was not reopened till 2013.  It is facile to suggest that having fought a successful fight on their daughter's behalf concerning so many issues that they should step back from the mark now.

Maybe it is about time for Mr Amaral to play his ace since this action begins and ends with his actions.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 09, 2015, 11:05:03 PM
Even before that their argument was weak for many reasons why have been gone over before and never possible to substantiate
IMO it could be reasonably justified as "aiding the search" originally.
That's important because search is one of the fund's two stated objects.
IMO that justification became a bit weaker when SY formally opened their full investigation.
And then I imagine 2nd Sept 2015 may have been a convenient waypoint at which to cautiously reconsider this question - Can contesting the appeal be reasonably considered to be aiding the search?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on September 09, 2015, 11:14:36 PM
IMO it could be reasonably justified as "aiding the search" originally.
That's important because search is one of the fund's two stated objects.
IMO that justification became a bit weaker when SY formally opened their full investigation.
And then I imagine 2nd Sept 2015 may have been a convenient waypoint at which to cautiously reconsider this question - Can contesting the appeal be reasonably considered to be aiding the search?

Suing Amaral IMO never "aided the search", it can be argued it hindered it
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 10, 2015, 06:21:12 AM
Suing Amaral IMO never "aided the search", it can be argued it hindered it

Amaral didn't harm the search, the judge said so. He didn't libel the children, the judge said so. He 'damaged' the McCanns, that's what the judge found. Now that the clause of 'supporting the family' is no longer one of the Fund's aims, I would think paying any money out to lawyers or the courts for this case would be hard to justify.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 10, 2015, 06:51:15 AM
Amaral didn't harm the search, the judge said so. He didn't libel the children, the judge said so. He 'damaged' the McCanns, that's what the judge found. Now that the clause of 'supporting the family' is no longer one of the Fund's aims, I would think paying any money out to lawyers or the courts for this case would be hard to justify.

I think the judge concluded that a sufficient causal link between harm to the search and Amaral's spoutings (in book, video and interviews) had not been demonstrated.

Vastly different from the (bogus) claim that harm to the search had been "disproved".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 10, 2015, 07:47:20 AM
I think the judge concluded that a sufficient causal link between harm to the search and Amaral's spoutings (in book, video and interviews) had not been demonstrated.

Vastly different from the (bogus) claim that harm to the search had been "disproved".

The onus was upon those claiming that Amaral's views harmed the search to prove it. They couldn't. That makes it an unsupported allegation. As they can't prove that the search was harmed, they can't use that as a reason for spending Fund money on the appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 10, 2015, 07:52:28 AM
The onus was upon those claiming that Amaral's views harmed the search to prove it. They couldn't. That makes it an unsupported allegation. As they can't prove that the search was harmed, they can't use that as a reason for spending Fund money on the appeal.

Some things ought to be so self-evident, they shouldn't stand in need of proof.

How can someone (the former lead detective in the shelved investigation) write a book, sold in droves across countries of Europe, saying theMcCannsdunit,cocealedacrime,andlauchedafraudulent'appeal'intheirdeaddaughter'sname and that not harm the search for Madeleine?

As it stands, I am slow to be critical of the learned Portuguese judge, because I think she set the tenor of her judgment so as to make it difficult for Amaral to sustain an appeal.

If that's right, then I applaud that ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 07:54:08 AM
The onus was upon those claiming that Amaral's views harmed the search to prove it. They couldn't. That makes it an unsupported allegation. As they can't prove that the search was harmed, they can't use that as a reason for spending Fund money on the appeal.

they can...and they have...amaral seems to think the judge was wrong on other issues so was the judge right re the search
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 08:04:43 AM
Some things ought to be so self-evident, they shouldn't stand in need of proof.

How can someone (the former lead detective in the shelved investigation) write a book, sold in droves across countries of Europe, saying theMcCannsdunit,cocealedacrime,andlauchedafraudulent'appeal'intheirdeaddaughter'sname and that not harm the search for Madeleine?

As it stands, I am slow to be critical of the learned Portuguese judge, because I think she set the tenor of her judgment so as to make it difficult for Amaral to sustain an appeal.

If that's right, then I applaud that ....

.............and your opinion is of no value whatsoever, and entirely predictable.

She gave her interpretation of the law.

Now let's see what happens next time. 8)--))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 10, 2015, 08:26:39 AM
they can...and they have...amaral seems to think the judge was wrong on other issues so was the judge right re the search

They have indeed, but it can't be justified. Are you saying the judge was wrong? Oh dear, perhaps she was wrong about her legal opinions too?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on September 10, 2015, 09:21:17 AM
The onus was upon those claiming that Amaral's views harmed the search to prove it. They couldn't. That makes it an unsupported allegation. As they can't prove that the search was harmed, they can't use that as a reason for spending Fund money on the appeal.

I don't know how they could say that an ex police officer in charge of the disappearance of Madeleine who wrote a book saying that Madeleine was dead that the McCann's had faked an abduction and hidden her body,  didn't harm the search for Madeleine.

How many people would think 'well that's it,  Madeleine's dead,  it couldn't have been her I saw'   and didn't report what they may or might have seen?

The fact that they couldn't PROVE it is another matter,  how can you prove something like that?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 10, 2015, 09:53:53 AM
I don't know how they could say that an ex police officer in charge of the disappearance of Madeleine who wrote a book saying that Madeleine was dead that the McCann's had faked an abduction and hidden her body,  didn't harm the search for Madeleine.

How many people would think 'well that's it,  Madeleine's dead,  it couldn't have been her I saw'   and didn't report what they may or might have seen?

The fact that they couldn't PROVE it is another matter,  how can you prove something like that?

In a court of law proof has to be provided, opinion doesn't count. What the judge concluded was that the McCanns were unable to provide that proof.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 10, 2015, 10:04:52 AM
I don't know how they could say that an ex police officer in charge of the disappearance of Madeleine who wrote a book saying that Madeleine was dead that the McCann's had faked an abduction and hidden her body,  didn't harm the search for Madeleine.

How many people would think 'well that's it,  Madeleine's dead,  it couldn't have been her I saw'   and didn't report what they may or might have seen?

The fact that they couldn't PROVE it is another matter,  how can you prove something like that?

With enormous difficulty.

Paiva stated that the book hadn't hindered the continued investigation (he shared Amaral's view before the book was published, so it didn't actually change anything).

The judge found it was hard to quantify any change in public opinion, but what's not taken into account is the amount of damage created by half-baked leaks from his team prior to the publication.

The book and the DVD are only the tip of the iceberg - how many times have he and his pals been on TV shows and in every rag that will publish their "expert" opinions? Each time reinforces the idea that the child isn't worth looking for in one way or another.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 10, 2015, 10:26:29 AM
Some things ought to be so self-evident, they shouldn't stand in need of proof.

How can someone (the former lead detective in the shelved investigation) write a book, sold in droves across countries of Europe, saying theMcCannsdunit,cocealedacrime,andlauchedafraudulent'appeal'intheirdeaddaughter'sname and that not harm the search for Madeleine?

As it stands, I am slow to be critical of the learned Portuguese judge, because I think she set the tenor of her judgment so as to make it difficult for Amaral to sustain an appeal.

If that's right, then I applaud that ....

I thought the original injunction judgement was quite well thought out and balanced, but then compare that to the Supreme Court ruling...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 10, 2015, 07:59:46 PM
I was hunting for something different, but I came across this again (undated, so I'm not sure if it's the latest).

Penal code.

It concerns someone who discovers and reveals confidential information as a result of their professional work, and it's aggravated if it's used in exchange for a reward or enrichment.

ARTIGO 195.º
(Violação de segredo)

Quem, sem consentimento, revelar segredo alheio de que tenha tomado conhecimento em razão do seu estado, ofício, emprego, profissão ou arte é punido com pena de prisão até 1 ano ou com pena de multa até 240 dias.

ARTIGO 197.º
(Agravação)

As penas previstas nos artigos 190.º a 195.º são elevadas de um terço nos seus limites mínimo e máximo se o facto for praticado:
a) Para obter recompensa ou enriquecimento, para o agente ou para outra pessoa, ou para causar prejuízo a outra pessoa ou ao Estado; ou
b) Através de meio de comunicação social.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 10, 2015, 09:10:56 PM
I was hunting for something different, but I came across this again (undated, so I'm not sure if it's the latest).

Penal code.

It concerns someone who discovers and reveals confidential information as a result of their professional work, and it's aggravated if it's used in exchange for a reward or enrichment.

ARTIGO 195.º
(Violação de segredo)

Quem, sem consentimento, revelar segredo alheio de que tenha tomado conhecimento em razão do seu estado, ofício, emprego, profissão ou arte é punido com pena de prisão até 1 ano ou com pena de multa até 240 dias.

ARTIGO 197.º
(Agravação)

As penas previstas nos artigos 190.º a 195.º são elevadas de um terço nos seus limites mínimo e máximo se o facto for praticado:
a) Para obter recompensa ou enriquecimento, para o agente ou para outra pessoa, ou para causar prejuízo a outra pessoa ou ao Estado; ou
b) Através de meio de comunicação social.

What does using the means of social communication mean?  Is that reference to the internet or can it be taken as TV and radio?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 09:20:29 PM
I thought the original injunction judgement was quite well thought out and balanced, but then compare that to the Supreme Court ruling...

I suggest you wait for the appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 10, 2015, 09:41:10 PM
I thought the original injunction judgement was quite well thought out and balanced, but then compare that to the Supreme Court ruling...

The perils of ex-parte rulings ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 10, 2015, 10:13:55 PM
What does using the means of social communication mean?  Is that reference to the internet or can it be taken as TV and radio?

It's normally translated as media, in context, meaning traditional media. Some of these laws may predate the recent concept of "social media", so I'm not sure about that.

http://www.linguee.com/english-portuguese/search?query=meio+de+comunica%C3%A7%C3%A3o+social
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 10, 2015, 10:54:26 PM
It's normally translated as media, in context, meaning traditional media. Some of these laws may predate the recent concept of "social media", so I'm not sure about that.

http://www.linguee.com/english-portuguese/search?query=meio+de+comunica%C3%A7%C3%A3o+social

Thanks Carana ... however if that link to the penal code is applicable to him and my reading of it says it well may be, it is probably a good idea for him to try to keep the appeal process going for a few years to postpone the severe penalties of disseminating confidential information gained in his position as a public servant.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 11, 2015, 07:46:55 AM
Thanks Carana ... however if that link to the penal code is applicable to him and my reading of it says it well may be, it is probably a good idea for him to try to keep the appeal process going for a few years to postpone the severe penalties of disseminating confidential information gained in his position as a public servant.

Depending on what the bit below means, I think that may have already been dealt with.


Criminal investigation officers, retired for various reasons of disciplinary penalty application, retain special rights, being holders of an identification card for recognition of their quality and the rights they enjoy [paragraphs 1 and and 2 of article 149 of the Organic Law of the Judicial Police and Ordinance No. 96/2002 of 31 January].

The statute of the retirement [approved by Decree-Law 498/72 of 9 December] establishes, from its original wording in the respective artº 74, paragraph 1, that
the retired, apart from his right to a retirement pension, remains bound to the civil service, keeping the titles and the category of the position he held and the rights and duties that do not depend on being in activity.


http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 11, 2015, 05:21:04 PM
I was reading Amaral's Nova Gente interview again.

It certainly gives an indication as to what his appeal arguments are likely to be.

In his view:

- He wasn't being tried for the crime of defamation, but for an offence of opinion.

- There is no direct link between his book / documentary and any damage to the McCanns.

- He merely reported the "truth".

- No duty of confidentiality should negate his right to freedom of expression to defend his good name and professional dignity against defamation and injustice.

http://pjga.blogspot.com/2015/05/nova-gente-interview-with-goncalo-amaral_15.html
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 11, 2015, 05:48:08 PM
I was reading Amaral's Nova Gente interview again.

It certainly gives an indication as to what his appeal arguments are likely to be.

In his view:

- He wasn't being tried for the crime of defamation, but for an offence of opinion.

- There is no direct link between his book / documentary and any damage to the McCanns.

- He merely reported the "truth".

- No duty of confidentiality should negate his right to freedom of expression to defend his good name and professional dignity against defamation and injustice.

http://pjga.blogspot.com/2015/05/nova-gente-interview-with-goncalo-amaral_15.html

Interesting take ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 11, 2015, 06:07:50 PM
Interesting take ....

CdaM tried that in the Murat case, but the appeal judges didn't agree.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 11, 2015, 06:17:13 PM
CdaM tried that in the Murat case, but the appeal judges didn't agree.

The advantage the McCanns have over Murat is that Murat couldn't disprove the allegation against him by the paper.

The McCanns have been able to disprove, at least a very large number, of specific allegations against them.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 11, 2015, 06:54:23 PM
The advantage the McCanns have over Murat is that Murat couldn't disprove the allegation against him by the paper.

The McCanns have been able to disprove, at least a very large number, of specific allegations against them.

But that would be an issue in a UK court (if ever such a case would have even got that far), not necessarily in PT. And the judge didn't want to even want to know about dogs, DNA or anything else. Not her remit.


It's not about whether any specific details were true or not, but what damage the book and documentary caused directly and to whom. At the same time, as the Murat appeal case demonstrated, there is a certain liberty in terms of appreciation under the rules of common sense (or whatever the term actually is).

I can sort of understand throwing out damage to the twins, as the judge ruled that any damage would have been indirect.

The saddest of all (IMO), was that the damage to the search for Madeleine wasn't accepted due to the lack of demonstrable evidence. And the fact that so many negative leaks, many of which weren't even based in reality, were allowed to happen during his tenure is neither here nor there, in terms of this trial.

On the other hand... the judge does appear to have considered the matter in depth.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 11, 2015, 07:09:09 PM
But that would be an issue in a UK court (if ever such a case would have even got that far), not necessarily in PT. And the judge didn't want to even want to know about dogs, DNA or anything else. Not her remit.

That's the issue all over the world where there are libel laws.

Only difference is where burden of proof lies.

No point in libel laws otherwise.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 11, 2015, 07:38:34 PM
That's the issue all over the world where there are libel laws.

Only difference is where burden of proof lies.

No point in libel laws otherwise.

The burden of proof is part of the issue, but not the only one. And it doesn't relate to proving whether x, y, or z detail was materially true or not, but the damage caused by an ex-police officer who promoted his interpretation of selected details in the files as being the "truth", particularly at a time when a more balanced view by the prosecutor, who had reviewed all the files available had come to a much more nuanced conclusion, and the fact that by insisting on his view was denying the McCanns their right to the presumption of innocence in the criminal activities that he continually attributes to them.

I still have trouble accepting the idea that he hasn't at least contributed to damaging the search for the most important person in this case... I wonder if that could be an issue considered by the appeal judges or not.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 11, 2015, 07:52:05 PM
The burden of proof is part of the issue, but not the only one. And it doesn't relate to proving whether x, y, or z detail was materially true or not, but the damage caused by an ex-police officer who promoted his interpretation of selected details in the files as being the "truth", particularly at a time when a more balanced view by the prosecutor, who had reviewed all the files available had come to a much more nuanced conclusion, and the fact that by insisting on his view was denying the McCanns their right to the presumption of innocence in the criminal activities that he continually attributes to them.

I still have trouble accepting the idea that he hasn't at least contributed to damaging the search for the most important person in this case... I wonder if that could be an issue considered by the appeal judges or not.

Provided someone can prove beyond doubt she was alive at the time of the books publication and thereafter I guess.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 11, 2015, 08:44:20 PM
Provided someone can prove beyond doubt she was alive at the time of the books publication and thereafter I guess.

Why would anyone have to prove beyond doubt that she was alive at the time of the book's publication?

There was no evidence that she'd died. It's not even as if she'd disappeared in a plane crash in an ocean.

Even if she had died, who would call in with concerns about Uncle Peter/ Pieter/ Pedro's strange behaviour or odd items found in his home if it were assumed that the parents had disposed of her?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 11, 2015, 08:48:54 PM
Still reading through the Nova Gente interview...

This was the bit I'd remembered about his view on the hierarchy of his rights versus any administrative infringement:

I am a free man, and like any other citizen in this country, I have the right to express my opinions. I was a Criminal Investigation coordinator, a policeman, and there is no reserve duty, a functional or merely instrumental thing, from the exercise of a profession, that superimposes a fundamental right and freedom of expression. To state that the duty of reserve limits freedom of expression for life, or even during the exercise of the profession of policeman, is to elevate that duty, which is merely administrative, above freedom of expression and fundamental rights, consecrated in the Constitution of the Portuguese Republic, in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and on the European Convention of Human Rights.

I think I can see a few problems with that argument...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 11, 2015, 09:39:27 PM
Why would anyone have to prove beyond doubt that she was alive at the time of the book's publication?

There was no evidence that she'd died. It's not even as if she'd disappeared in a plane crash in an ocean.

Even if she had died, who would call in with concerns about Uncle Peter/ Pieter/ Pedro's strange behaviour or odd items found in his home if it were assumed that the parents had disposed of her?

I would have thought the Portuguese judiciary would take note of wording in the archiving process in this respect. With the case archived there is no one looking anyway in any official capacity. So you are faced with proving there was a coordinated "unofficial" search which was impeded by the book content.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on September 11, 2015, 10:51:39 PM
Thanks Carana ... however if that link to the penal code is applicable to him and my reading of it says it well may be, it is probably a good idea for him to try to keep the appeal process going for a few years to postpone the severe penalties of disseminating confidential information gained in his position as a public servant.

his book was published after the files were released so how could he be responsible for disseminating confidentialinformation it's a an oxymoron at best and further confirmed by the vexatious complaint by the Duarte woman which got thrown out of court..nice try though
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 12, 2015, 06:44:36 AM
his book was published after the files were released so how could he be responsible for disseminating confidentialinformation it's a an oxymoron at best and further confirmed by the vexatious complaint by the Duarte woman which got thrown out of court..nice try though

It does seem a fine line the judge is drawing here. Because the book was published just three days after the PJ Files were released, the judge decided the information was confidential when Amaral used it to write his book. Clearly that's true.

The question then is can a policeman use confidential information gained through his job to write something down which he keeps to himself? If no-one knows what he's written then I guess he can do that because no-one knows. If the PJ Files hadn't been released and Amaral as a result hadn't published his book no-one would have known what was in it.

So Amaral did use confidential information to write the book, but it wasn't confidential when he published the book. A fine line.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 12, 2015, 07:16:13 AM
his book was published after the files were released so how could he be responsible for disseminating confidentialinformation it's a an oxymoron at best and further confirmed by the vexatious complaint by the Duarte woman which got thrown out of court..nice try though

No, it's not.  Proof reads of early drafts of the text will have been seen by third-parties well in advance of publication date.

That breached Portuguese secrecy.

As would Amaral's access to material as not (then) a serving officer, or at any rate, not on the Madeleine case.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 12, 2015, 07:55:42 AM
I would have thought the Portuguese judiciary would take note of wording in the archiving process in this respect. With the case archived there is no one looking anyway in any official capacity. So you are faced with proving there was a coordinated "unofficial" search which was impeded by the book content.

OK, I see your idea.

What we don't know is how viable any of the leads that landed on desk officer Paiva's desk actually were. No doubt a number of them would have been of the nutty variety, but what effort was put into any plausible ones?

If potentially serious leads had been ignored or had just involved getting a GNR officer to pop over to see if there was any "sign of the minor", it would still be difficult to attribute inaction to the book as Paiva shared Amaral's theory anyway.

If some of those leads came in from the public, then not everyone believed that she was dead, but a number would have come in from the PIs, and no one will ever know how many more might have come in. Some of the potentially-linked assault cases only came to light as a result of the Crimewatch appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2015, 08:05:02 AM
OK, I see your idea.

What we don't know is how viable any of the leads that landed on desk officer Paiva's desk actually were. No doubt a number of them would have been of the nutty variety, but what effort was put into any plausible ones?

If potentially serious leads had been ignored or had just involved getting a GNR officer to pop over to see if there was any "sign of the minor", it would still be difficult to attribute inaction to the book as Paiva shared Amaral's theory anyway.

If some of those leads came in from the public, then not everyone believed that she was dead, but a number would have come in from the PIs, and no one will ever know how many more might have come in. Some of the potentially-linked assault cases only came to light as a result of the Crimewatch appeal.

Perhaps you should learn to realize people came to the conclusion Madeleine was dead without the influence Paiva or Amaral.

If some want to believe she was and is still alive, so be it.

However, not one sighting , or one lead has led anywhere.

As to your 'might have come in', that is speculation and no more than that.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 12, 2015, 08:09:34 AM
I've no doubt groundless prejudices might have taken a hold of some people's souls from a very early stage, yes.

And?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 09:05:41 AM
Perhaps you should learn to realize people came to the conclusion Madeleine was dead without the influence Paiva or Amaral.

If some want to believe she was and is still alive, so be it.

However, not one sighting , or one lead has led anywhere.

As to your 'might have come in', that is speculation and no more than that.

as there is no proof maddie is dead it is pure speculation to say she is
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on September 12, 2015, 09:09:51 AM
The same with  other people who are missing,but  presumed dead, I suppose.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2015, 09:12:44 AM
The same with  other people who are missing,but  presumed dead, I suppose.

Indeed.

I wonder if some people still believe Lord Lucan is still alive ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 09:16:13 AM
Indeed.

I wonder if some people still believe Lord Lucan is still alive ?

As Ihave told you many times the belief is that Maddie MAY still be alive not that she is...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 12, 2015, 09:22:15 AM
Time will tell.


Carana, do you think this case will ever be solved ?

I've no idea. The police seem to think there's still a reasonable chance, so I'll go with that.

Some cases never get solved as we all know, but others eventually do. Sometimes there's a breakthrough through direct investigative work, and sometimes there's a lucky break that pops up out of seemingly nowhere.

Some missing kid cases have been solved years later, because one kid managed to escape, or because of an investigation into a newer case.

One cold murder case (I can't remember in which country now) was eventually solved when a family was clearing out the attic of an elderly relative who'd died. They came across a suitcase of stuff they were about to throw out when one of them suddenly thought that the contents were odd and called the police.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2015, 09:23:24 AM
It would be interesting to get a coherent reply from mccann supporters who believe that Madeleine is alive, that after 8 plus years of unparalleled publicity this case has received, where she would be.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 09:27:56 AM
It would be interesting to get a coherent reply from mccann supporters who believe that Madeleine is alive, that after 8 plus years of unparalleled publicity this case has received, where she would be.

which McCann supporters have said maddie IS still alive...I certainly haven't
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2015, 09:29:53 AM
Indeed.

I wonder if some people still believe Lord Lucan is still alive ?

If alive Bingham would be eighty years old ~ pity Sandra Rivett wasn't given the opportunity to reach a similar serene old age.

Since there is not a shred of evidence that Madeleine is dead ... there is the probability that she remains a live, findable child.
Of the two options ~ I prefer the latter ~ and I wish the PJ and SY all speed in finding out what happened to her.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 12, 2015, 09:39:39 AM
The same with  other people who are missing,but  presumed dead, I suppose.

In the meantime, the families are living in limbo, rollercoasting between accepting that their loved one may indeed be dead and that glimmer of hope in the absence of concrete evidence and the knowledge of cases in which someone else's loved one is found alive.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 12, 2015, 09:48:21 AM
his book was published after the files were released so how could he be responsible for disseminating confidentialinformation it's a an oxymoron at best and further confirmed by the vexatious complaint by the Duarte woman which got thrown out of court..nice try though

Erm... I think you'll find that the judge did note that there was a breach of judicial secrecy.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 12, 2015, 10:08:40 AM
It does seem a fine line the judge is drawing here. Because the book was published just three days after the PJ Files were released, the judge decided the information was confidential when Amaral used it to write his book. Clearly that's true.

The question then is can a policeman use confidential information gained through his job to write something down which he keeps to himself? If no-one knows what he's written then I guess he can do that because no-one knows. If the PJ Files hadn't been released and Amaral as a result hadn't published his book no-one would have known what was in it.

So Amaral did use confidential information to write the book, but it wasn't confidential when he published the book. A fine line.

When he left, he must have taken documents with him, or arranged to get hold of a copy. While quite possibly against police rules, if he kept them under lock and key while he wrote his draft, then presumably that wouldn't be a breach of secrecy as such.

There was most definitely a breach of secrecy, however. It's impossible to have a book edited, proof-read, police photos photoshopped, the contents laid out, printed and on the shelves in three days.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 12, 2015, 10:54:42 AM
When he left, he must have taken documents with him, or arranged to get hold of a copy. While quite possibly against police rules, if he kept them under lock and key while he wrote his draft, then presumably that wouldn't be a breach of secrecy as such.

There was most definitely a breach of secrecy, however. It's impossible to have a book edited, proof-read, police photos photoshopped, the contents laid out, printed and on the shelves in three days.

If I was given to speculation I might think the PJ, having taken so much flack from the media, co-operated with Amaral so he could write the book. Perhaps that would explain why no action was taken against Amaral by them. Are you suggesting that police photos used in the book were manipulated to show something they didn't show originally?

I don't know how long it takes for the steps you have outlined, but an author can get a contract with a publisher based on a proposal and a few sample pages for a work of non-fiction. A non-fiction book can be written after the contract is signed. The next step is copy-editing (finding and correcting typos, etc.) I suppose it's possible that could be done in a day if Amaral worked alongside the copy editor. Printing on the second day and delivery overnight to the bookshops. All ready for launch on third day. I'm not saying it happened like that, but can anyone prove it didn't?
http://blog.nathanbransford.com/2009/08/how-book-gets-published.html

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 11:29:29 AM
If I was given to speculation I might think the PJ, having taken so much flack from the media, co-operated with Amaral so he could write the book. Perhaps that would explain why no action was taken against Amaral by them. Are you suggesting that police photos used in the book were manipulated to show something they didn't show originally?

I don't know how long it takes for the steps you have outlined, but an author can get a contract with a publisher based on a proposal and a few sample pages for a work of non-fiction. A non-fiction book can be written after the contract is signed. The next step is copy-editing (finding and correcting typos, etc.) I suppose it's possible that could be done in a day if Amaral worked alongside the copy editor. Printing on the second day and delivery overnight to the bookshops. All ready for launch on third day. I'm not saying it happened like that, but can anyone prove it didn't?
http://blog.nathanbransford.com/2009/08/how-book-gets-published.html

Amaral does not seem to have supplied any defence to his breach of secrecy so the 3 day idea is a non starter
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 12, 2015, 01:36:17 PM
If I was given to speculation I might think the PJ, having taken so much flack from the media, co-operated with Amaral so he could write the book. Perhaps that would explain why no action was taken against Amaral by them. Are you suggesting that police photos used in the book were manipulated to show something they didn't show originally?

I don't know how long it takes for the steps you have outlined, but an author can get a contract with a publisher based on a proposal and a few sample pages for a work of non-fiction. A non-fiction book can be written after the contract is signed. The next step is copy-editing (finding and correcting typos, etc.) I suppose it's possible that could be done in a day if Amaral worked alongside the copy editor. Printing on the second day and delivery overnight to the bookshops. All ready for launch on third day. I'm not saying it happened like that, but can anyone prove it didn't?
http://blog.nathanbransford.com/2009/08/how-book-gets-published.html

Erm, there is no way that a book can go from a vague draft to on the shelves in three days.

No, the illustrations of police file photos would have been rendered via the use of a photoshop filter to convey an "artist's impression", to avoid the "reproduction prohibited" issue.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2015, 03:47:51 PM
Erm, there is no way that a book can go from a vague draft to on the shelves in three days.

No, the illustrations of police file photos would have been rendered via the use of a photoshop filter to convey an "artist's impression", to avoid the "reproduction prohibited" issue.

Either that or Mr Amaral has a photographic memory and is a remarkably good artist into the bargain ... maybe we will find out at his appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2015, 04:02:45 PM
Still waiting to hear some logical possibilities of Madeleine's whereabouts, if she was alive. &%+((£

P.S.  The mccanns and some of their supporters, keep stating she is a 'findable  living  child'.

Yet not one has come with a logical scenario as to where she would be.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 04:10:52 PM
Still waiting to hear some logical possibilities of Madeleine's whereabouts, if she was alive. &%+((£

why should anyone wish to play your game of speculation...totally pointless
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 04:19:14 PM
why should anyone wish to play your game of speculation...totally pointless
At least we don't need to speculate about whether Mr Amaral's supporters will provide sufficient funds to pay his lawyer.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2015, 04:32:31 PM
At least we don't need to speculate about whether Mr Amaral's supporters will provide sufficient funds to pay his lawyer.

Which would that be, Pegasus, past or present ... even those who may be future and not out of law school yet.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 12, 2015, 04:50:26 PM
Which would that be, Pegasus, past or present ... even those who may be future and not out of law school yet.

                                           @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 04:53:01 PM
Which would that be, Pegasus, past or present ... even those who may be future and not out of law school yet.
Good point. And what about paying lawyers who are still in nappies.
I can't predict whether the current PJGA fundraising support for Mr Amaral will continue that long.
But also I can't imagine the directors of a fund, which nowhere in its two objects has any mention of fighting libel cases, paying for the multiple portuguese and brit lawyers on the other side.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2015, 04:53:58 PM
                                           @)(++(*

I feel sure the mcanns and their supporters could enjoy legal proceedings for years to come.  8)--))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 12, 2015, 06:11:11 PM
At least we don't need to speculate about whether Mr Amaral's supporters will provide sufficient funds to pay his lawyer.

I am intrigued as to why you seem to be so obsessed with commenting on his fund.  Yes he may have sufficient funds to pay his lawyer.

And your point is?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 07:00:30 PM
Kate could simply write another book if money was tight...I'm sure it would be a best seller
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2015, 07:06:36 PM
I am intrigued as to why you seem to be so obsessed with commenting on his fund.  Yes he may have sufficient funds to pay his lawyer.

And your point is?
I guess the point is that Amaral is hugely popular with a large and devoted following ready to support him in any and every way, or something.  Just don't ask why this popularity isn't so evident in his native country.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 03:26:15 AM
I guess the point is that Amaral is hugely popular with a large and devoted following ready to support him in any and every way, or something.  Just don't ask why this popularity isn't so evident in his native country.
Which is greater do you think? Donations from Portuguese public to PJGA, or donations from UK public to MF?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 08:45:00 AM
Which is greater do you think? Donations from Portuguese public to PJGA, or donations from UK public to MF?

Depends how you define greater?

Do you mean which is financially higher?

Or do you mean which is more noble?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 13, 2015, 09:41:35 AM
Which is greater do you think? Donations from Portuguese public to PJGA, or donations from UK public to MF?
without subjecting the Fund to forensic analysis I'm unable to state for certain but from what I have seen of the donors and comments left most of them seem to be from non-PT nationals.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on September 13, 2015, 09:58:11 AM
Depends how you define greater?

Do you mean which is financially higher?

Or do you mean which is more noble?

A very subjective opinion I'm sure you'd agree.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on September 13, 2015, 01:11:31 PM
Which is greater do you think? Donations from Portuguese public to PJGA, or donations from UK public to MF?

There is no need for donations to the FMF at present as the police are actively investigating.
Amaral, on the other hand, needs far more money than his supporters will ever donate to get out of his self-inflicted financial mess.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 13, 2015, 01:16:38 PM
There is no need for donations to the FMF at present as the police are actively investigating.
Amaral, on the other hand, needs far more money than his supporters will ever donate to get out of his self-inflicted financial mess.

Just as well because after sending £££ on lawyers to fight liaible claims, who would want to donate? They do not promote transperancy as was promised with their accounts. Would they really be using the money to 'find Madeliene'
If two poloce forces couldn't?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 05:21:56 PM
There is no need for donations to the FMF at present as the police are actively investigating.
Amaral, on the other hand, needs far more money than his supporters will ever donate to get out of his self-inflicted financial mess.
Mr Mitchell on Sept 2nd clearly explained the need to have huge amounts of money ready now to finance the future search. So I think the fund would disagree that there is no need for donations - and this is proven by the fact their donation page is open today - how can they have money ready for the future search if no-one donates?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 17, 2015, 04:50:47 PM
   

MATTERS TO BE DECIDED

In view of the requests made, the decision on the merits essentially depends on the answer to the following question :

- Are the book written by the defendant Goncalo Amaral, the adaptation of this book for the audiovisual documentary and the interview given by the same defendant illicit /anti-juridical according to article 484° of the Civil Procedure Code ?

In response attempt will travel the following discussion levels :
(snip)

The Civil Procedure Code has been difficult to pin down as it has been through major revisons with a sand-blast through it all. I'm not even sure if this is the relevant one, but it makes more sense than a diferent (older) article bearing the same number:


  Artigo 484.º (art.º 586.º CPC 1961)
Relatório pericial   
1 - O resultado da perícia é expresso em relatório, no qual o perito ou peritos se pronunciam fundamentadamente sobre o respetivo objeto.

2 - Tratando-se de perícia colegial, se não houver unanimidade, o discordante apresenta as suas razões.
3 - Se o juiz assistir à inspeção e o perito puder de imediato pronunciar-se, o relatório é ditado para a ata.

http://www.pgdlisboa.pt/leis/lei_busca_assunto_diploma.php?buscajur=484&artigo_id=&pagina=1&ficha=1&nid=1959&tabela=leis&diplomas=&artigos=
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 22, 2015, 08:08:32 AM
The judge declined to find it 'proved' that a book accusing them of knowing Madeleine was dead, causing her death, covering up the "fact" of her death and fabricating an "abduction" didn't harm the search for Madeleine.

Even the judge didn't get everything right.

But I think she might well have couched her judgment so as to make it difficult for Amaral to sustain an appeal.

I would applaud that if so.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 22, 2015, 08:21:39 AM
The judge declined to find it 'proved' that a book accusing them of knowing Madeleine was dead, causing her death, covering up the "fact" of her death and fabricating an "abduction" didn't harm the search for Madeleine.

Even the judge didn't get everything right.

But I think she might well have couched her judgment so as to make it difficult for Amaral to sustain an appeal.

I would applaud that if so.

you are absolutely right...by allowing only the veru strong points which may be impossible to successfully appeal the judge has made amaral's appeal very difficult....what a smart move
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on September 22, 2015, 08:25:31 AM
The judge declined to find it 'proved' that a book accusing them of knowing Madeleine was dead, causing her death, covering up the "fact" of her death and fabricating an "abduction" didn't harm the search for Madeleine.

Even the judge didn't get everything right.

But I think she might well have couched her judgment so as to make it difficult for Amaral to sustain an appeal.

I would applaud that if so.

I think you may have mangled your negatives there?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 22, 2015, 08:34:08 AM
The judge declined to find it 'proved' that a book accusing them of knowing Madeleine was dead, causing her death, covering up the "fact" of her death and fabricating an "abduction" didn't harm the search for Madeleine.

Even the judge didn't get everything right.

But I think she might well have couched her judgment so as to make it difficult for Amaral to sustain an appeal.

I would applaud that if so.

Of course you would applaud if that was true.

However, you better wait for the appeal, hadn't you. 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on September 22, 2015, 10:31:22 AM
Simply amazing to see that the fund is now at £ 47.000,00!!! Two donations of £ 4.000,00 each were made this morning.

The comment for the first donation is as follows:

De um grupo anónimo de funcionários de empresas e do meio legal que estão estupefactos com o que aconteceu. Portugal e a Grã-Bretanha são velhos aliados, mas os McCann e os tablóides britânicos tentaram separar-nos. Todos vemos perfeitamente aquilo que estão a tentar fazer, congelando os bens do Dr Amaral para o impedir de se defender, enquanto usam os milhões que lhes foram doados pelo público para o processar. Isto não é justiça. Isto está errado. Os McCann perderam 5 das suas 7 pretensões, mas a imprensa britânica não o reportou, nem tão-pouco reportou as palavras duras utilizadas pela juíza em relação às suas supostas 'provas'. Têm de pagar 60% das custas, mas a imprensa britânica não o reportou. Esta pequena doação destina-se a assegurar que este venenoso acto de ódio não seja bem sucedido. Acreditamos que um dia a verdade será contada, embora seja improvável que sejam os pais a fazê-lo.


Translation:

From a group of company workers and of the legal system who are stupefied with what has happened. Portugal and Great Britain are old allies, but the McCanns and the British tabloids have tried to separate us. We all see perfectly what they are trying to do, freezing Dr. Amaral's assets in order to keep him from defending himself, while they use the millions that were donated by the public to sue him. This is not justice. This is wrong. The McCanns lost 5 of their 7 claims, but the British press hasn't reported it, neither did they report the harsh words used by the judge in relation to their presumed "proof". They must pay 60% of the costs, but the British press has not reported it. This small donation is to ensure that this venomous act of hate will not succeed. We believe that one day the truth will be told, although it will be improbable that it will be the parents who will do it.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 22, 2015, 10:42:00 AM
Simply amazing to see that the fund is now at £ 47.000,00!!! Two donations of £ 4.000,00 each were made this morning.

The comment for the first donation is as follows:

De um grupo anónimo de funcionários de empresas e do meio legal que estão estupefactos com o que aconteceu. Portugal e a Grã-Bretanha são velhos aliados, mas os McCann e os tablóides britânicos tentaram separar-nos. Todos vemos perfeitamente aquilo que estão a tentar fazer, congelando os bens do Dr Amaral para o impedir de se defender, enquanto usam os milhões que lhes foram doados pelo público para o processar. Isto não é justiça. Isto está errado. Os McCann perderam 5 das suas 7 pretensões, mas a imprensa britânica não o reportou, nem tão-pouco reportou as palavras duras utilizadas pela juíza em relação às suas supostas 'provas'. Têm de pagar 60% das custas, mas a imprensa britânica não o reportou. Esta pequena doação destina-se a assegurar que este venenoso acto de ódio não seja bem sucedido. Acreditamos que um dia a verdade será contada, embora seja improvável que sejam os pais a fazê-lo.


Translation:

From a group of company workers and of the legal system who are stupefied with what has happened. Portugal and Great Britain are old allies, but the McCanns and the British tabloids have tried to separate us. We all see perfectly what they are trying to do, freezing Dr. Amaral's assets in order to keep him from defending himself, while they use the millions that were donated by the public to sue him. This is not justice. This is wrong. The McCanns lost 5 of their 7 claims, but the British press hasn't reported it, neither did they report the harsh words used by the judge in relation to their presumed "proof". They must pay 60% of the costs, but the British press has not reported it. This small donation is to ensure that this venomous act of hate will not succeed. We believe that one day the truth will be told, although it will be improbable that it will be the parents who will do it.

Excellent news.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on September 22, 2015, 10:44:21 AM
you are absolutely right...by allowing only the veru strong points which may be impossible to successfully appeal the judge has made amaral's appeal very difficult....what a smart move

The judge wasn't that smart. According to many people in the legal system, her points are quite easy to appeal. Let's just wait and see.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 22, 2015, 10:45:57 AM
The judge wasn't that smart. According to many people in the legal system, her points are quite easy to appeal. Let's just wait and see.

Who, exactly, are these people, and where are their quotes?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 22, 2015, 10:46:06 AM
The judge wasn't that smart. According to many people in the legal system, her points are quite easy to appeal. Let's just wait and see.
Who are these people and where can we read their reasons for believing the appeal will be an easy ride?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 22, 2015, 10:46:22 AM
Who, exactly, are these people, and where are their quotes?
Snap! 8((()*/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 22, 2015, 10:52:34 AM
Simply amazing to see that the fund is now at £ 47.000,00!!! Two donations of £ 4.000,00 each were made this morning.

The comment for the first donation is as follows:

De um grupo anónimo de funcionários de empresas e do meio legal que estão estupefactos com o que aconteceu. Portugal e a Grã-Bretanha são velhos aliados, mas os McCann e os tablóides britânicos tentaram separar-nos. Todos vemos perfeitamente aquilo que estão a tentar fazer, congelando os bens do Dr Amaral para o impedir de se defender, enquanto usam os milhões que lhes foram doados pelo público para o processar. Isto não é justiça. Isto está errado. Os McCann perderam 5 das suas 7 pretensões, mas a imprensa britânica não o reportou, nem tão-pouco reportou as palavras duras utilizadas pela juíza em relação às suas supostas 'provas'. Têm de pagar 60% das custas, mas a imprensa britânica não o reportou. Esta pequena doação destina-se a assegurar que este venenoso acto de ódio não seja bem sucedido. Acreditamos que um dia a verdade será contada, embora seja improvável que sejam os pais a fazê-lo.


Translation:

From a group of company workers and of the legal system who are stupefied with what has happened. Portugal and Great Britain are old allies, but the McCanns and the British tabloids have tried to separate us. We all see perfectly what they are trying to do, freezing Dr. Amaral's assets in order to keep him from defending himself, while they use the millions that were donated by the public to sue him. This is not justice. This is wrong. The McCanns lost 5 of their 7 claims, but the British press hasn't reported it, neither did they report the harsh words used by the judge in relation to their presumed "proof". They must pay 60% of the costs, but the British press has not reported it. This small donation is to ensure that this venomous act of hate will not succeed. We believe that one day the truth will be told, although it will be improbable that it will be the parents who will do it.

Some people's stupidity is simply mind-blowing ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 22, 2015, 11:00:41 AM
Some people's stupidity is simply mind-blowing ....

You mean like supporting parents who repeatedly left their children in danger ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 22, 2015, 11:03:44 AM
You mean like supporting parents who repeatedly left their children in danger ?

I think they need lots of support...but there again I'm a decent human being
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 22, 2015, 11:04:23 AM
Some people's stupidity is simply mind-blowing ....
@)(++(*  this is either an act of utter delusion or sly deceit, it's hard to decide which. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 22, 2015, 11:09:30 AM
Soooo, it had been noted that donations to the fund recently had slowed to a trickle, there had been some eyebrows raised here and elsewhere at the lack of homegrown PT support for Amaral's fund, then - low and behold - two massive donations, allegedly from a bunch of (anonymous) PT nationals. 

I smell a great big rat....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 22, 2015, 11:16:56 AM
Soooo, it had been noted that donations to the fund recently had slowed to a trickle, there had been some eyebrows raised here and elsewhere at the lack of homegrown PT support for Amaral's fund, then - low and behold - two massive donations, allegedly from a bunch of (anonymous) PT nationals. 

I smell a great big rat....

What you should say is eyebrows raised by mccann supporters.

So how are donations to the mccann fund doing these days ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 11:17:54 AM
@)(++(*  this is either an act of utter delusion or sly deceit, it's hard to decide which.
Yes that's the answer - in order to deceive people into thinking someone has donated £8K, a deluded person has donated £8K. A cunning plan if ever there was one.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 22, 2015, 11:24:00 AM
It's interesting.

They've got £47,000

If Amaral's lawyer charges £200 an hour £40,000 would buy 200 hours of his time (roughly 8 24-hour days).

How much time is needed to prepare a defence that consists of: the McCanns should have got less than they got cos they weren't with Madeleine when she was abducted?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2015, 11:27:54 AM
Soooo, it had been noted that donations to the fund recently had slowed to a trickle, there had been some eyebrows raised here and elsewhere at the lack of homegrown PT support for Amaral's fund, then - low and behold - two massive donations, allegedly from a bunch of (anonymous) PT nationals. 

I smell a great big rat....

I did too ... but I am sure we must be mistaken as will no doubt be proven by two events ...
Anyway it will no doubt quiet some of the unrest which arose in the ranks when the fund started by Ms Baulch was transferred to Portimao.
Anyway ... roll on the appeal ... apparently there is plenty of money in the kitty to pay for it or so we are told.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 22, 2015, 11:31:13 AM
I think they need lots of support...but there again I'm a decent human being

Decent human beings don't recklessly endanger their children.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on September 22, 2015, 11:32:51 AM
It's interesting.

They've got £47,000

If Amaral's lawyer charges £200 an hour £40,000 would buy 200 hours of his time (roughly 8 24-hour days).

How much time is needed to prepare a defence that consists of: the McCanns should have got less than they got cos they weren't with Madeleine when she was abducted?

Do you have any idea what is in Gonçalo Amaral's appeal? Why do you assume that he is only contesting the amount awarded?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2015, 11:33:32 AM
What you should say is eyebrows raised by mccann supporters.

So how are donations to the mccann fund doing these days ?

Madeleine's Fund is dedicated to looking for Madeleine ... remember her?  the missing child.

At the moment there is no requirement for her parents to raise money for that ... as the people who have the legal right and the legal powers to do that are currently so doing.

Why do you persist in asking such an unnecessary question ... what point are you trying to make?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 22, 2015, 11:34:36 AM
The judge wasn't that smart. According to many people in the legal system, her points are quite easy to appeal. Let's just wait and see.

are these the same people who were saying that amaral had won his case and the McCanns wouldn't get a penny
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 22, 2015, 11:36:35 AM
Yes that's the answer - in order to deceive people into thinking someone has donated £8K, a deluded person has donated £8K. A cunning plan if ever there was one.
It's not very cunning, most people with sense can see through it.  You withdraw money from the fund you control and then you channel it back into the fund again - recycling donations to make it look like you have more support than you actually do. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 22, 2015, 11:36:54 AM
Madeleine's Fund is dedicated to looking for Madeleine ... remember her?  the missing child.

At the moment there is no requirement for her parents to raise money for that ... as the people who have the legal right and the legal powers to do that are currently so doing.

Why do you persist in asking such an unnecessary question ... what point are you trying to make?

Whose actions resulted in her going missing  ?


 and trying giving an accurate answer, since the cause of her 'disappearance' remains unresolved no matter how many times you cry abduction.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 22, 2015, 11:37:34 AM
Do you have any idea what is in Gonçalo Amaral's appeal? Why do you assume that he is only contesting the amount awarded?

my reason because in his statement he said he was contesting the sentence rather than the judgement...perhaps he is just sloppy with his words...who knows
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 22, 2015, 11:37:45 AM
It's interesting.

They've got £47,000

If Amaral's lawyer charges £200 an hour £40,000 would buy 200 hours of his time (roughly 8 24-hour days).

How much time is needed to prepare a defence that consists of: the McCanns should have got less than they got cos they weren't with Madeleine when she was abducted?
Why aren't these professional lawyer types who support Ammy giving him their time for free rather than coughing up £8k to pay some other lawyer type...?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2015, 11:38:37 AM
Yes that's the answer - in order to deceive people into thinking someone has donated £8K, a deluded person has donated £8K. A cunning plan if ever there was one.

Even you must admit, Pegasus, all such suspicions could easily be allayed by independent auditing and publication of the accounts.

If all is above board and transparent ... there can be no valid objection to that??????
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on September 22, 2015, 11:38:52 AM
Madeleine's Fund is dedicated to looking for Madeleine ... remember her?  the missing child.

At the moment there is no requirement for her parents to raise money for that ... as the people who have the legal right and the legal powers to do that are currently so doing.

Why do you persist in asking such an unnecessary question ... what point are you trying to make?

Quite a strange post when talking about the trial, thinking about the funding of the McCann's legal costs?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 11:42:22 AM
June 11 ....And I am sure nobody will have any objection if the gofundme total raised increases to £40K ...(snip)
Tick.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 22, 2015, 11:42:58 AM
Quite a strange post when talking about the trial, thinking about the funding of the McCann's legal costs?

the McCanns have put a lot of money themselves into the fund...enough to cover the legal cost several times over. Wasn't their latest payment from the Times given straight to charity
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2015, 11:45:55 AM
Whose actions resulted in her going missing  ?


 and trying giving an accurate answer, since the cause of her 'disappearance' remains unresolved no matter how many times you cry abduction.

Are you yet again ignoring the criminal actions of the person who abducted Madeleine McCann in your eagerness to castigate her parents?

It is attitudes such as that which have led to Mr Amaral's current appeal against his failed defence of the libels perpetrated against the Drs McCann ... after the long legal route to this point.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2015, 11:49:43 AM
Why aren't these professional lawyer types who support Ammy giving him their time for free rather than coughing up £8k to pay some other lawyer type...?

Good question, Alfred.

Mr Amaral's popularity in Portugal apparently doesn't stretch to that extent ... else why the constant appeals for funding over the years and the alleged fall outs and parting of the ways for alleged non-payment from time to time.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 22, 2015, 11:53:28 AM
Are you yet again ignoring the criminal actions of the person who abducted Madeleine McCann in your eagerness to castigate her parents?

It is attitudes such as that which have led to Mr Amaral's current appeal against his failed defence of the libels perpetrated against the Drs McCann ... after the long legal route to this point.


Dear, dear, dear.

When has it proven there was an abduction ?

Keep to the facts.

Not your mantra.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 22, 2015, 11:53:40 AM
Simply amazing to see that the fund is now at £ 47.000,00!!! Two donations of £ 4.000,00 each were made this morning.

The comment for the first donation is as follows:

De um grupo anónimo de funcionários de empresas e do meio legal que estão estupefactos com o que aconteceu. Portugal e a Grã-Bretanha são velhos aliados, mas os McCann e os tablóides britânicos tentaram separar-nos. Todos vemos perfeitamente aquilo que estão a tentar fazer, congelando os bens do Dr Amaral para o impedir de se defender, enquanto usam os milhões que lhes foram doados pelo público para o processar. Isto não é justiça. Isto está errado. Os McCann perderam 5 das suas 7 pretensões, mas a imprensa britânica não o reportou, nem tão-pouco reportou as palavras duras utilizadas pela juíza em relação às suas supostas 'provas'. Têm de pagar 60% das custas, mas a imprensa britânica não o reportou. Esta pequena doação destina-se a assegurar que este venenoso acto de ódio não seja bem sucedido. Acreditamos que um dia a verdade será contada, embora seja improvável que sejam os pais a fazê-lo.


Translation:

From a group of company workers and of the legal system who are stupefied with what has happened. Portugal and Great Britain are old allies, but the McCanns and the British tabloids have tried to separate us. We all see perfectly what they are trying to do, freezing Dr. Amaral's assets in order to keep him from defending himself, while they use the millions that were donated by the public to sue him. This is not justice. This is wrong. The McCanns lost 5 of their 7 claims, but the British press hasn't reported it, neither did they report the harsh words used by the judge in relation to their presumed "proof". They must pay 60% of the costs, but the British press has not reported it. This small donation is to ensure that this venomous act of hate will not succeed. We believe that one day the truth will be told, although it will be improbable that it will be the parents who will do it.

this statement does not sound as though it comes from a group of legal workers but more like someone who has been following the case for some time...I'm surprised they missed out "dogs don't lie"
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2015, 11:56:07 AM
Quite a strange post when talking about the trial, thinking about the funding of the McCann's legal costs?

The strange post is not mine but the one to which I am responding ... which raised the subject of Madeleine's fund which you may note from my response I mention nothing in relation to legal costs but only the costs of looking for Madeleine.

Why have you put the interpretation on it that it is in reference to her parents' legal costs?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on September 22, 2015, 11:57:37 AM
the McCanns have put a lot of money themselves into the fund...enough to cover the legal cost several times over. Wasn't their latest payment from the Times given straight to charity

Once it is in the fund, it isn't their money.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on September 22, 2015, 12:00:49 PM
The strange post is not mine but the one to which I am responding ... which raised the subject of Madeleine's fund which you may note from my response I mention nothing in relation to legal costs but only the costs of looking for Madeleine.

Why have you put the interpretation on it that it is in reference to her parents' legal costs?

Maybe something to do with the thread title and you stating the reason behind MF.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 12:04:19 PM
Why aren't these professional lawyer types who support Ammy giving him their time for free rather than coughing up £8k to pay some other lawyer type...?
Because it is more effective to use the best lawyer for the job.
Also because people work more efficiently if they don't have to live on nothing while they are doing it.
This is why you will find that all the law firms and the PR individual and companies used by the other side are paid.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 22, 2015, 12:05:44 PM
Do you have any idea what is in Gonçalo Amaral's appeal? Why do you assume that he is only contesting the amount awarded?

There's nothing else he can contest.

(One of Amaral's sacked) lawyers admitted libel (on Amaral's behalf) when he asked if proceedings could be in camera to protect Madeleine lest Madeleine be alive.

If you doubt that, refresh yourself on the final chapter of Amaral's book ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2015, 12:06:00 PM
Once it is in the fund, it isn't their money.

Yet despite that knowledge they chose to direct the profits from a best seller ... not into their private accounts as they were entitled to do ... but into Madeleine's Fund.

Moneys awarded from litigation both to them and their friends was paid into Madeleine's Fund. 

That they were able to donate the damages awarded to them for the libel perpetrated by the Sunday Times to two charities was only because at long last Madeleine's case had been officially reopened.

They did not have to do that ... but the money was theirs to do with as they wished ... and that was how they chose to use it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 22, 2015, 12:10:04 PM
Because it is more effective to use the best lawyer for the job.
Also because people work more efficiently if they don't have to live on nothing while they are doing it.
This is why you will find that all the law firms and the PR individual and companies used by the other side are paid.
Has Amaral got the best lawyer?  He's certainly got though a few of them in his time.  And - ever heard of "pro bono"?  If Amaral is destitute, but with masses of support from the legal community and a dead cert to win his appeal, I would have thought they'd be queuing up round the block to help him for free.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 12:10:56 PM
Madeleine's Fund is dedicated to looking for Madeleine ... remember her?  the missing child.

At the moment there is no requirement for her parents to raise money for that ... as the people who have the legal right and the legal powers to do that are currently so doing.

Why do you persist in asking such an unnecessary question ... what point are you trying to make?
MFLNSU Ltd is dedicated to looking for Madeleine AND ensuring any perp is caught
(there used to be a 3rd aim but that was removed years ago)

Mr Mitchell's statement on 2nd Sept 2015 makes it clear IMO that donations to MF are as important now as they ever have been.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2015, 12:17:38 PM
Maybe something to do with the thread title and you stating the reason behind MF.

I responded to a post.

I would be very much obliged if you would refrain from putting words into my mouth or into my posts which were not there in the first instance ... or could even be loosely assumed to be my intended meaning.

Do you do this with other posters or am I uniquely in your sights?

Agreed that at the moment the discussion is the opaque and unaudited Amaral Fund for his appeal against the Portuguese judge's ruling against him.
The transparent and audited Madeleine Fund season really doesn't begin until December through to early January ... however I don't see that particular post you have picked on as making any connection with the Drs McCann legal costs and fail to see how you make that connection.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 12:29:36 PM
Yet despite that knowledge they chose to direct the profits from a best seller ... not into their private accounts as they were entitled to do ... but into Madeleine's Fund.

Moneys awarded from litigation both to them and their friends was paid into Madeleine's Fund. 

That they were able to donate the damages awarded to them for the libel perpetrated by the Sunday Times to two charities was only because at long last Madeleine's case had been officially reopened.

They did not have to do that ... but the money was theirs to do with as they wished ... and that was how they chose to use it.
Yes and that choice was put in black and white on page 393 of the book.
"all royalties earned from sales of this book will be donated to Madeleine's Fund"

Therefore it is impossible for any royalties from the book to be donated into any other fund or account.
The "other account" mentioned by Mr Mitchell on 02/09/2015 must get its money from some other source, not book royalties.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2015, 12:29:56 PM
MFLNSU Ltd is dedicated to looking for Madeleine AND ensuring any perp is caught
(there used to be a 3rd aim but that was removed years ago)

Mr Mitchell's statement on 2nd Sept 2015 makes it clear IMO that donations to MF are as important now as they ever have been.

Was that statement actually made on September 2nd 2015 ... or was it a much earlier one?  At the moment there is every hope that the present investigations will reach a positive conclusion ... but whatever, there can be no argument that for the time being people can be very relaxed about Madeleine's Fund.

The same cannot be said about the rather flagging funding for Mr Amaral's appeal until the good news (if there actually was a large donation) ~ less than good news though if as some have suggested some redistributive accounting has occurred instead .

Publishing the accounts would address that suggestion.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 22, 2015, 12:34:02 PM
Soooo, it had been noted that donations to the fund recently had slowed to a trickle, there had been some eyebrows raised here and elsewhere at the lack of homegrown PT support for Amaral's fund, then - low and behold - two massive donations, allegedly from a bunch of (anonymous) PT nationals. 

I smell a great big rat....

What are you suggesting, Alfred? 

I am sure these donations are absolutely genuine and above board.  And I am equally certain that when the independently audited accounts of the Amaral fund are released this will show that all the figures tie up between Amaral's fund, Go Fund Me and the legal costs, and there is no evidence of any recycling of donations.

May I also commend the two donors for having managed to make their Portuguese donations equal exactly £4000 - but why oh why donate via the GoFundMe site.  The cost of doing so is at least £400 - (5%) and if the money was collected in euros and converted to GBP, there would be an exchange rate cost typically of 1% to 2%.  (an extra £80 to £160).

Whereas if they had simply made the donation directly via the BPI - Banco Português de Investimento, Sete Rios, Lisboa, there would have been no charge and no exchange costs and Amaral could have been £500 quid better off. 

I am sure there is a simple explanation for this.     

 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on September 22, 2015, 12:46:21 PM
Has Amaral got the best lawyer?  He's certainly got though a few of them in his time.  And - ever heard of "pro bono"?  If Amaral is destitute, but with masses of support from the legal community and a dead cert to win his appeal, I would have thought they'd be queuing up round the block to help him for free.

Goncalo Amaral was always going to get some sort of legal representation for his appeal.  I don't understand why some people can't see this.  So all of this donating to his Fund is just a statement against The McCanns.

That's okay.  It won't make a scrap of difference to the outcome.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 22, 2015, 12:49:57 PM
What are you suggesting, Alfred? 

I am sure these donations are absolutely genuine and above board.  And I am equally certain that when the independently audited accounts of the Amaral fund are released this will show that all the figures tie up between Amaral's fund, Go Fund Me and the legal costs, and there is no evidence of any recycling of donations.

May I also commend the two donors for having managed to make their Portuguese donations equal exactly £4000 - but why oh why donate via the GoFundMe site.  The cost of doing so is at least £400 - (5%) and if the money was collected in euros and converted to GBP, there would be an exchange rate cost typically of 1% to 2%.  (an extra £80 to £160).

Whereas if they had simply made the donation directly via the BPI - Banco Português de Investimento, Sete Rios, Lisboa, there would have been no charge and no exchange costs and Amaral could have been £500 quid better off. 

I am sure there is a simple explanation for this.   

and of course all cardholder not present payments...such as these are not guaranteed to be paid
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 22, 2015, 12:55:04 PM
What are you suggesting, Alfred? 

I am sure these donations are absolutely genuine and above board.  And I am equally certain that when the independently audited accounts of the Amaral fund are released this will show that all the figures tie up between Amaral's fund, Go Fund Me and the legal costs, and there is no evidence of any recycling of donations.

May I also commend the two donors for having managed to make their Portuguese donations equal exactly £4000 - but why oh why donate via the GoFundMe site.  The cost of doing so is at least £400 - (5%) and if the money was collected in euros and converted to GBP, there would be an exchange rate cost typically of 1% to 2%.  (an extra £80 to £160).

Whereas if they had simply made the donation directly via the BPI - Banco Português de Investimento, Sete Rios, Lisboa, there would have been no charge and no exchange costs and Amaral could have been £500 quid better off. 

I am sure there is a simple explanation for this.   
I'm sure you're right J-P, nice one.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on September 22, 2015, 01:04:36 PM
What are you suggesting, Alfred? 

I am sure these donations are absolutely genuine and above board.  And I am equally certain that when the independently audited accounts of the Amaral fund are released this will show that all the figures tie up between Amaral's fund, Go Fund Me and the legal costs, and there is no evidence of any recycling of donations.

May I also commend the two donors for having managed to make their Portuguese donations equal exactly £4000 - but why oh why donate via the GoFundMe site.  The cost of doing so is at least £400 - (5%) and if the money was collected in euros and converted to GBP, there would be an exchange rate cost typically of 1% to 2%.  (an extra £80 to £160).

Whereas if they had simply made the donation directly via the BPI - Banco Português de Investimento, Sete Rios, Lisboa, there would have been no charge and no exchange costs and Amaral could have been £500 quid better off. 

I am sure there is a simple explanation for this.   

Let's try not to be too logical about this.  Especially as most of us really don't mind.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 22, 2015, 01:07:06 PM
https://www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA

http://portugalresident.com/appeal-to-raise-money-for-maddie-cop%E2%80%99s-legal-costs-gets-huge-cash-boost

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CPflKe5WsAAZZdV.jpg)

An anonymous group of employees of companies and legal means that are stunned by what happened. Portugal and Britain are old allies, but the McCanns and the British tabloids tried to separate us. All see perfectly what we are trying to do, freezing the assets of Dr Amaral to prevent him from defending himself, while using the millions they have been donated by the public to the process. This is not justice. This is wrong. The McCanns have lost 5 of their 7 pretensions, but the British press not reported, nor even reported the harsh words used by the judge in relation to his alleged 'evidence'. They have to pay 60% of costs, but the British press not reported. This small donation is intended to ensure that this venomous hatred act is not successful. We believe that one day the truth will be told, although it is unlikely to be parents to do so.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2015, 01:27:58 PM
https://www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA

http://portugalresident.com/appeal-to-raise-money-for-maddie-cop%E2%80%99s-legal-costs-gets-huge-cash-boost

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CPflKe5WsAAZZdV.jpg)

An anonymous group of employees of companies and legal means that are stunned by what happened. Portugal and Britain are old allies, but the McCanns and the British tabloids tried to separate us. All see perfectly what we are trying to do, freezing the assets of Dr Amaral to prevent him from defending himself, while using the millions they have been donated by the public to the process. This is not justice. This is wrong. The McCanns have lost 5 of their 7 pretensions, but the British press not reported, nor even reported the harsh words used by the judge in relation to his alleged 'evidence'. They have to pay 60% of costs, but the British press not reported. This small donation is intended to ensure that this venomous hatred act is not successful. We believe that one day the truth will be told, although it is unlikely to be parents to do so.

Brilliant ... when I'm making a charitable donation I like to ensure all the money is going where it should and not to a third party which is why I make a Gift Aid Declaration ... in this case, were I Portuguese living and working in Portugal, I would have paid it into the Portuguese bank account set up for that reason.

Seems legal workers in Portugal may have more money than sense in some cases and certainly no accountants within their ranks ... not to worry though ... it will all soon come out in the wash.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 22, 2015, 01:31:07 PM
Brilliant ... when I'm making a charitable donation I like to ensure all the money is going where it should and not to a third party which is why I make a Gift Aid Declaration ... in this case, were I Portuguese living and working in Portugal, I would have paid it into the Portuguese bank account set up for that reason.

Seems legal workers in Portugal may have more money than sense in some cases and certainly no accountants within their ranks ... not to worry though ... it will all soon come out in the wash.

In reality the majority of money going to charities is used to pay the salaries of those who do the fundraising.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 22, 2015, 01:56:00 PM
Brilliant ... when I'm making a charitable donation I like to ensure all the money is going where it should and not to a third party which is why I make a Gift Aid Declaration ... in this case, were I Portuguese living and working in Portugal, I would have paid it into the Portuguese bank account set up for that reason.

Seems legal workers in Portugal may have more money than sense in some cases and certainly no accountants within their ranks ... not to worry though ... it will all soon come out in the wash.

It doesn't actually say that this group of professionals from the business and legal world are Portuguese...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 22, 2015, 01:56:51 PM
why have they chosen to stay anonymous...something not right
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on September 22, 2015, 01:59:03 PM
why have they chosen to stay anonymous...something not right

Perhaps they prefer it to being abused on-line by all and sundry.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 22, 2015, 02:07:01 PM
I have no problem that this young English woman started an initiative to support someone she seems to admire... And everyone should be free to support whatever cause is close to their heart with their spare cash, but why didn't she simply promote the original fund via her social media contacts?

ETA: as J-P says, I'm sure there will be a simple explanation, but for the moment I don't quite understand it.

With lots of contributors donating £5 whenever they can afford it, is there any particular reason to give a percentage of that as a fee to gofundme as opposed to a direct transfer to the PT account?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on September 22, 2015, 02:21:51 PM
I don't understand the bit in bold and I most probably have misinterpreted it.

"There is no court date"? Does anyone know if this mean that there will be no public court case for the appeal, or lawyers required in court in the appeal or will it be a private hearing(s) ?
Is it just a matter of waiting for a decision from the ruling judges after they have investigated the ruling that awarded damages to the McCanns and compare arguments/ evidence?

Excerpt:-

As to the former PJ detective’s appeal against the ruling that effectively orders him to pay the McCann’s over €600,000 in damages, that is advancing now through the Appellate Court in Lisbon.

As a friend of the former detective’s explained, “it is not a public process. There is no court date.
“At some point, the judges reach a verdict and then they communicate that verdict to all parties. There is however no deadline. It may take weeks or months until we hear anything”.
natasha.donn@algarveresident.com
http://portugalresident.com/appeal-to-raise-money-for-maddie-cop%E2%80%99s-legal-costs-gets-huge-cash-boost
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 22, 2015, 02:28:09 PM
I don't understand the bit in bold and I most probably have misinterpreted it.

"There is no court date"? Does anyone know if this mean that there will be no public court case for the appeal, or lawyers required in court in the appeal or will it be a private hearing(s) ?
Is it just a matter of waiting for a decision from the ruling judges after they have investigated the ruling that awarded damages to the McCanns and compare arguments/ evidence?

Excerpt:-

As to the former PJ detective’s appeal against the ruling that effectively orders him to pay the McCann’s over €600,000 in damages, that is advancing now through the Appellate Court in Lisbon.

As a friend of the former detective’s explained, “it is not a public process. There is no court date.
“At some point, the judges reach a verdict and then they communicate that verdict to all parties. There is however no deadline. It may take weeks or months until we hear anything”.
natasha.donn@algarveresident.com
http://portugalresident.com/appeal-to-raise-money-for-maddie-cop%E2%80%99s-legal-costs-gets-huge-cash-boost


I'm not sure how a civil appeal hearing works in PT. It might just be judges sitting over coffee and laptops with either lawyers present or available when they find a time slot.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 22, 2015, 02:33:28 PM
Madeleine's Fund is dedicated to looking for Madeleine ... remember her?  the missing child.

At the moment there is no requirement for her parents to raise money for that ... as the people who have the legal right and the legal powers to do that are currently so doing.

Why do you persist in asking such an unnecessary question ... what point are you trying to make?

True but the "donate" buttons on the website remain in good working order (as of 15 minutes ago). So the website owners have a different view it would seem
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on September 22, 2015, 02:34:58 PM
Yep, got to be Brits doing this. Two donations of 4,000 Pounds each  within ten minutes?

But I really don't mind.  It won't affect the ultimate outcome.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on September 22, 2015, 02:40:54 PM

I'm not sure how a civil appeal hearing works in PT. It might just be judges sitting over coffee and laptops with either lawyers present or available when they find a time slot.

Thanks Carana.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 02:44:52 PM
I have no problem that this young English woman started an initiative to support someone she seems to admire... And everyone should be free to support whatever cause is close to their heart with their spare cash, but why didn't she simply promote the original fund via her social media contacts?

ETA: as J-P says, I'm sure there will be a simple explanation, but for the moment I don't quite understand it.

With lots of contributors donating £5 whenever they can afford it, is there any particular reason to give a percentage of that as a fee to gofundme as opposed to a direct transfer to the PT account?
Calculate MF's website costs in their first accounting year, as a percentage of MF's online donations, and you will find that gofundme's 5% fee is very reasonable in comparision.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on September 22, 2015, 02:45:52 PM
Yep, got to be Brits doing this. Two donations of 4,000 Pounds each  within ten minutes?

But I really don't mind.  It won't affect the ultimate outcome.

Or Yanks who've been scamming it all along. A wise man once told me to never believe everything you read or see on the internet.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 22, 2015, 02:51:25 PM
Or Yanks who've been scamming it all along. A wise man once told me to never believe everything you read or see on the internet.
Or even Yanks with Portuguese backgrounds...?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on September 22, 2015, 02:52:58 PM
I responded to a post.

I would be very much obliged if you would refrain from putting words into my mouth or into my posts which were not there in the first instance ... or could even be loosely assumed to be my intended meaning.

Do you do this with other posters or am I uniquely in your sights?

Agreed that at the moment the discussion is the opaque and unaudited Amaral Fund for his appeal against the Portuguese judge's ruling against him.
The transparent and audited Madeleine Fund season really doesn't begin until December through to early January ... however I don't see that particular post you have picked on as making any connection with the Drs McCann legal costs and fail to see how you make that connection.

Not uniquely no.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 02:55:11 PM
Yep, got to be Brits doing this. Two donations of 4,000 Pounds each  within ten minutes?

But I really don't mind.  It won't affect the ultimate outcome.
But Eleanor all donations at UK gofundme are accounted for in Pounds, even if the donor has a  Euro bank account.
And the fact that both donations are round numbers in Pounds may have the following explanation...
The max donation at US gofundme is IMO$50K, but what is the max donation at UK gofundme? Could it be £4K? That might explain the donation being split into two parts
... and might even indicate that this fundraising effort by the "Anônimo" group of people in Portugal is ongoing and there is more to come?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on September 22, 2015, 03:07:52 PM
Or Yan.ks who've been scamming it all along. A wise man once told me to never believe everything you read or see on the internet.

It's okay though.  Everyone must have the right to do as they please when it comes to spending their money.  And I don't really care if it is misguided, although only in my opinion.  And if The Internet has misguided them, then more fool them.  They will never get their money back, no matter what happens.

Personally, I believe that Goncalo Amaral will lose, but he was always going to Appeal.  Why should he not?  He has nothing more to lose.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on September 22, 2015, 03:12:45 PM
But Eleanor all donations at UK gofundme are accounted for in Pounds, even if the donor has a  Euro bank account.
And the fact that both donations are round numbers in Pounds may have the following explanation...
The max donation at US gofundme is IMO$50K, but what is the max donation at UK gofundme? Could it be £4K? That might explain the donation being split into two parts
... and might even indicate that this fundraising effort by the "Anônimo" group of people in Portugal is ongoing and there is more to come?

It could be so.  But why not to have done it sooner and individually?  Eight thousand Quid at the same time is a little hard to swallow.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 22, 2015, 03:17:57 PM
It could be so.  But why not to have done it sooner and individually?  Eight thousand Quid at the same time is a little hard to swallow.

If the donor has a euro bank account, then why use a site denominated in £ - with two sets of conversions costs.  And why use the GoFundMe site instead of just making a contribution to the Lisbon bank account? 

Unless they like the GoFundMe site so much they wanted to make a present of £400?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 22, 2015, 03:23:30 PM
Calculate MF's website costs in their first accounting year, as a percentage of MF's online donations, and you will find that gofundme's 5% fee is very reasonable in comparision.

Erm...

I'm not sure that I understand your comparison.

Someone has yet to explain to me where the 2007 Paypal fees were in the accounts. Under banking charges? Paypal isn't a bank.

Why not simply donate via a direct transfer to the original PJGA account? Wouldn't that make more available to Amaral for his legal fees? Particularly if the recent donations came from Euroland?



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on September 22, 2015, 03:27:15 PM
Maybe the donors didn't realise there was a charge.
Who cares anyway?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 22, 2015, 03:33:17 PM
If the donor has a euro bank account, then why use a site denominated in £ - with two sets of conversions costs.  And why use the GoFundMe site instead of just making a contribution to the Lisbon bank account? 

Unless they like the GoFundMe site so much they wanted to make a present of £400?

I don't understand it either.

£4,000 x 2 wasn't it, according to Montclair?

Simply amazing to see that the fund is now at £ 47.000,00!!! Two donations of £ 4.000,00 each were made this morning.


http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6269.msg274356#msg274356

Or was that a typo?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on September 22, 2015, 03:38:28 PM
Maybe the donors didn't realise there was a charge.
Who cares anyway?

Well certainly not me.  So we can agree on that.  But it isn't actually going to make any difference.  How much donated money Amaral might have won't win the case for him.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on September 22, 2015, 03:39:17 PM
Has Amaral got the best lawyer?  He's certainly got though a few of them in his time.  And - ever heard of "pro bono"?  If Amaral is destitute, but with masses of support from the legal community and a dead cert to win his appeal, I would have thought they'd be queuing up round the block to help him for free.

Is that why Isobel Duarte is acting in a pro bono capacity for the McCanns ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on September 22, 2015, 03:40:22 PM
Is that why Isobel Duarte is acting in a pro bono capacity for the McCanns ?

Is she?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lyall on September 22, 2015, 03:55:08 PM
why have they chosen to stay anonymous...something not right

Because they don't fancy having Sky News camping on their doorstep?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 22, 2015, 04:01:45 PM
Is that why Isobel Duarte is acting in a pro bono capacity for the McCanns ?

Are you getting your "pro bono" and "contingent fee" a bit mixed up?

Either way, the answer is no.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 22, 2015, 04:02:59 PM
Because they don't fancy having Sky News camping on their doorstep?
Why would they do that?  They weren't abusive trolls as well were they?  Sky has shown no interest in Gonc's fund as far as I'm aware...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 22, 2015, 04:04:35 PM
Is that why Isobel Duarte is acting in a pro bono capacity for the McCanns ?
I wasn't aware that she was - anyway, are you implying that (like Amaral) the McCanns are destitute?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lyall on September 22, 2015, 04:10:40 PM
Why would they do that?  They weren't abusive trolls as well were they?  Sky has shown no interest in Gonc's fund as far as I'm aware...

There's no doubt at least two of their TV faces are very much interested in all aspects of the case. Very wise to be anonymous imo.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 22, 2015, 04:33:15 PM
There's no doubt at least two of their TV faces are very much interested in all aspects of the case. Very wise to be anonymous imo.
That's just paranoid.  I haven't seen Sky doorsteppping any of the other fund donors who are not anonymous, have you?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lyall on September 22, 2015, 04:39:57 PM
That's just paranoid.  I haven't seen Sky doorsteppping any of the other fund donors who are not anonymous, have you?

You can never know what that organisation is planning, or what anyone else with a camera is planning too (e.g. Kleeman). This time last year who knew what they were about to do?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 22, 2015, 04:43:24 PM
That's just paranoid.  I haven't seen Sky doorsteppping any of the other fund donors who are not anonymous, have you?

Lawyers in prestigious PT or other Eurozone firms could have a) donated it directly and b) written it off as PR expenses...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 04:48:47 PM
If the donor has a euro bank account, then why use a site denominated in £ - with two sets of conversions costs.  And why use the GoFundMe site instead of just making a contribution to the Lisbon bank account? 

Unless they like the GoFundMe site so much they wanted to make a present of £400?
By donating £8000 to the Gofundme site instead of the PJGA site they have paid a 5% fee of about £400 but the added impact of their donation being publicised on Gofundme will within just a few days inspire extra donations from others which will total much more than £400. So it is a canny move.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 22, 2015, 04:51:43 PM
the McCanns have put a lot of money themselves into the fund...enough to cover the legal cost several times over. Wasn't their latest payment from the Times given straight to charity

Income of "The Fund Ltd" from inception to 31st March 2013 was £3.9MM. How much of this was donated Drs McCann and how much to date are their legal fees?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 22, 2015, 04:52:18 PM
By donating £8000 to the Gofundme site instead of the PJGA site they have paid a 5% fee of about £400 but the added impact of their donation being publicised on Gofundme will within just a few days inspire extra donations from others which will total much more than £400. So it is a canny move.

Has any attempt been made to calculate how much Amaral will need?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on September 22, 2015, 04:52:37 PM
By donating £8000 to the Gofundme site instead of the PJGA site they have paid a 5% fee of about £400 but the added impact of their donation being publicised on Gofundme will within just a few days inspire extra donations from others which will total much more than £400. So it is a canny move.

Does GoFundMe publicise non-Facebook verified account appeals?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 22, 2015, 04:52:51 PM
Because they don't fancy having Sky News camping on their doorstep?

why not...what a wonderful opportunity to tell the world the truth....masses of free publicity for amaral's cause...the donations would have rolled in...something very much not right here
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 22, 2015, 05:00:28 PM
By donating £8000 to the Gofundme site instead of the PJGA site they have paid a 5% fee of about £400 but the added impact of their donation being publicised on Gofundme will within just a few days inspire extra donations from others which will total much more than £400. So it is a canny move.

I gathered that.

But why not promote his PJGA fund instead in the first place? How many of his PT fan club glued to Dear Julia's matinée TV show understand English? And what would be the point of getting them to go via a UK site to redirect their spare cash back to PT?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on September 22, 2015, 05:04:34 PM
I gathered that.

But why not promote his PJGA fund instead in the first place? How many of his PT fan club glued to Dear Julia's matinée TV show understand English? And what would be the point of getting them to go via a UK site to redirect their spare cash back to PT?

What makes you think they are going via a UK site?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 22, 2015, 05:12:02 PM

We trust that Justice will be served.

Thank you.

 

Any money donated to this account, will be directly transferred to the PJGA account. Please help Goncalo.

https://www.gofundme.com/Legal-DefencePJGA


Well I suppose what's left will end up in the original fund, once the money has gone via the UK with a) a 5%+ fee, b) two FX transaction fees and c) if elderly PT supporters actually work out the English.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 22, 2015, 05:19:04 PM
What makes you think they are going via a UK site?

The English girl set it up, didn't she? Could she have set it up via a different country?

I don't see PT listed.

And what's the point when there was already a fund set up?



Is my country supported?

Supported countries and currencies include: United States of America ($USD), United Kingdom (£GBP), Canada ($CAD), Australia ($AUD), and some European Union countries that use the Euro as their official currency (€EUR).



USA & CANADA
UK ONLY
AUSTRALIA ONLY
FRANCE ONLY
INTERNATIONAL
Ireland, United Kingdom, Belgium, Finland,
Germany, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Spain, Italy, Austria
See Stripe for Ireland's Fees
CHARITIES ONLY

INTERNATIONAL
Ireland, United Kingdom, Belgium, Finland,
Germany, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Spain, Italy, Austria


What about taxes and stuff?

Unfortunately, we're unable to provide specific tax advice since everyone's situation is different. While this is by no means a guarantee, most donations on GoFundMe are simply considered to be 'personal gifts' which are not taxed as income in the US. Additionally, only donations made to a legally registered non-profit or charity may be considered eligible for donors to claim as a tax deduction. Again, every situation is different so please consult with a tax professional in your area.

Does it cost anything?

While it's free to create and share your online fundraising campaign, GoFundMe will deduct a 5% fee from each donation that you receive. Since our fee is deducted automatically, you'll never need to worry about being billed or owing us any money. A small processing fee of about 3% will also be deducted from each donation. Please see Pricing & Fees for more info.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on September 22, 2015, 05:20:41 PM
Is she?

I very much doubt it or indeed CR for that matter.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on September 22, 2015, 05:23:48 PM
Portugal Resident
Natasha Donn
September 22, 2015

Appeal to raise money for Maddie cop’s legal costs gets huge cash boost

An anonymous group of Portuguese “business and legal workers” have ploughed over €5,500 (£4000) into the online appeal, set up by a young single mother to raise money for beleaguered ex-Maddie cop Gonçalo Amaral. Amaral’s appeal against the €600,000 in damages awarded against him in the civil case taken out by the parents of missing Madeleine is due to be decided by Lisbon’s Appellate Court “any day now”.

The cash boost has brought the Legal Defence for Gonçalo Amaral to over €65,000 (£47,010).

Donated in the Portuguese language, the text claims to be from “an anonymous group of business and legal workers who are appalled by what has happened”.

It continues: “Portugal and Britain are old allies, but the McCanns and the British gutter press have tried to drive a wedge between us.

“We can all see what they are trying to do, freezing Dr Amaral’s assets to prevent him from defending himself, whilst using the donated millions to sue him.

“That is not justice. It is not right.

“The McCanns lost five out of the seven issues, but the British press has not reported that, nor the strong terms used by the judge against their so called ‘evidence’.

“They have to pay 60% of the costs, but the British press has not reported that” either, the text continues, stressing that “this small donation is to ensure that this act of hate and venom does not succeed”.

The donation - arriving in the legal fund early on Tuesday morning - has been widely shared on social media where a veritable avalanche of support for Amaral has accompanied him for the past eight years. But so far it has been ignored by the British mainstream media.

As to the former PJ detective’s appeal against the ruling that effectively orders him to pay the McCann’s over €600,000 in damages, that is advancing now through the Appellate Court in Lisbon.

As a friend of the former detective’s explained, “it is not a public process. There is no court date.

“At some point, the judges reach a verdict and then they communicate that verdict to all parties. There is however no deadline. It may take weeks or months until we hear anything”.

natasha.donn@algarveresident.com
http://portugalresident.com/appeal-to-r ... qNHsV.dpuf
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 22, 2015, 05:34:09 PM

It seems that they're no longer too keen on funding legal defence causes, either.

In 2015 GoFundMe announced that the site would no longer support legal defense funds on their platform. [16] The news came after the site suspended funding for the defense of Sweet Cakes by Melissa. a bakery that was fined for refusing to bake a cake for a same sex couple. [16]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoFundMe#cite_note-Sweetcakes-16
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 05:39:44 PM
Has any attempt been made to calculate how much Amaral will need?
I assume that his anticipated legal costs have been quite accurately estimated for various scenarios.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 22, 2015, 05:43:26 PM
Portugal Resident
Natasha Donn
September 22, 2015

Appeal to raise money for Maddie cop’s legal costs gets huge cash boost

An anonymous group of Portuguese “business and legal workers” have ploughed over €5,500 (£4000) into the online appeal, set up by a young single mother to raise money for beleaguered ex-Maddie cop Gonçalo Amaral. Amaral’s appeal against the €600,000 in damages awarded against him in the civil case taken out by the parents of missing Madeleine is due to be decided by Lisbon’s Appellate Court “any day now”.

The cash boost has brought the Legal Defence for Gonçalo Amaral to over €65,000 (£47,010).

Donated in the Portuguese language, the text claims to be from “an anonymous group of business and legal workers who are appalled by what has happened”.

It continues: “Portugal and Britain are old allies, but the McCanns and the British gutter press have tried to drive a wedge between us.

“We can all see what they are trying to do, freezing Dr Amaral’s assets to prevent him from defending himself, whilst using the donated millions to sue him.

“That is not justice. It is not right.

“The McCanns lost five out of the seven issues, but the British press has not reported that, nor the strong terms used by the judge against their so called ‘evidence’.

“They have to pay 60% of the costs, but the British press has not reported that” either, the text continues, stressing that “this small donation is to ensure that this act of hate and venom does not succeed”.

The donation - arriving in the legal fund early on Tuesday morning - has been widely shared on social media where a veritable avalanche of support for Amaral has accompanied him for the past eight years. But so far it has been ignored by the British mainstream media.

As to the former PJ detective’s appeal against the ruling that effectively orders him to pay the McCann’s over €600,000 in damages, that is advancing now through the Appellate Court in Lisbon.

As a friend of the former detective’s explained, “it is not a public process. There is no court date.

“At some point, the judges reach a verdict and then they communicate that verdict to all parties. There is however no deadline. It may take weeks or months until we hear anything”.

natasha.donn@algarveresident.com
http://portugalresident.com/appeal-to-r ... qNHsV.dpuf

Why are there two entries by "anonimo anonimo"? Is this a mistake or coincidence? One has a lower case "a" and the other upper case.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 05:51:22 PM
I gathered that.

But why not promote his PJGA fund instead in the first place? How many of his PT fan club glued to Dear Julia's matinée TV show understand English? And what would be the point of getting them to go via a UK site to redirect their spare cash back to PT?
Because the gofundme site is vastly better than the PJGA site.
Donations appear instantly, donators can publically state why they are donating, people can see others 'donations instantly, read why they donated, vote on them, and think "oh I see someone has just donated 8K, I have my card here I think I will donate twenty pounds". There is no such interaction on the PJGA or MFNSLUL sites.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lyall on September 22, 2015, 05:51:40 PM
why not...what a wonderful opportunity to tell the world the truth....masses of free publicity for amaral's cause...the donations would have rolled in...something very much not right here

Well you would say that wouldn't you?

Masses of free publicity? After last year nobody would trust them.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on September 22, 2015, 05:52:37 PM
Why are there two entries by "anonimo anonimo"? Is this a mistake or coincidence? One has a lower case "a" and the other upper case.

It is probably for record accuracy. Anonymous is Anonimo in Portuguese. One has written his message in English and the other in Portuguese.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 05:55:46 PM
Portugal Resident ...
10 out of 10 for the Portugal Resident.
Real journalism. Impartial reporting of what is happening.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on September 22, 2015, 05:56:15 PM
The English girl set it up, didn't she? Could she have set it up via a different country?

I don't see PT listed.

And what's the point when there was already a fund set up?



Is my country supported?

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What about taxes and stuff?

Unfortunately, we're unable to provide specific tax advice since everyone's situation is different. While this is by no means a guarantee, most donations on GoFundMe are simply considered to be 'personal gifts' which are not taxed as income in the US. Additionally, only donations made to a legally registered non-profit or charity may be considered eligible for donors to claim as a tax deduction. Again, every situation is different so please consult with a tax professional in your area.

Does it cost anything?

While it's free to create and share your online fundraising campaign, GoFundMe will deduct a 5% fee from each donation that you receive. Since our fee is deducted automatically, you'll never need to worry about being billed or owing us any money. A small processing fee of about 3% will also be deducted from each donation. Please see Pricing & Fees for more info.

LB is no longer running it. Who has the Stripe account been transferred to (the one that payments have to go through between GFM & PJGA - the same one which has card details of all its "customers").
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 06:00:00 PM
why not...what a wonderful opportunity to tell the world the truth....masses of free publicity for amaral's cause...the donations would have rolled in...something very much not right here
You seem to have forgotten Dave that the cause you are supporting is to prevent Mr Amaral and his supporters publicising their opinions
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2015, 06:17:54 PM
In reality the majority of money going to charities is used to pay the salaries of those who do the fundraising.

                                      Not the charities to which I give my active support.

If I contribute to a charity which is doing good work and also has paid employees ... that is my choice ... based on the fact their finances are transparent and subject to annual audit.  One can't be too careful when dealing with other peoples' money particularly solicited donations.

Then again ... it appears that donations to Mr Amaral's fund should not be subject to any transparency whatsoever ... because the people who demand to know how many paper clips Madeleine's Fund has used per annum seem to have declared Mr Amaral's Fund should be scrutiny free.

Actually I'm not too sure about that ... as anyone who has transferred funds or or received funds into their own bank accounts will attest.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 22, 2015, 06:18:45 PM
You seem to have forgotten Dave that the cause you are supporting is to prevent Mr Amaral and his supporters publicising their opinions

From publicising libel, you mean?

Quite different ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2015, 06:21:30 PM
It doesn't actually say that this group of professionals from the business and legal world are Portuguese...

Hmmm ... which would go some way to explaining why the donation was in Sterling and not Euros.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 22, 2015, 06:22:21 PM
Because the gofundme site is vastly better than the PJGA site.
Donations appear instantly, donators can publically state why they are donating, people can see others 'donations instantly, read why they donated, vote on them, and think "oh I see someone has just donated 8K, I have my card here I think I will donate twenty pounds". There is no such interaction on the PJGA or MFNSLUL sites.
Yes, it's far better for propaganda purposes and much easier to manipulate, I agree.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 22, 2015, 06:23:41 PM
You can never know what that organisation is planning, or what anyone else with a camera is planning too (e.g. Kleeman). This time last year who knew what they were about to do?
Do you think donating to the Fund would be construed by the GBP to be in the same league as being a spiteful troll then?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on September 22, 2015, 06:26:25 PM
No
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 22, 2015, 06:26:42 PM
Hmmm ... which would go some way to explaining why the donation was in Sterling and not Euros.

I could be wrong.  But I confess I thought all contributions were (at least recorded) in sterling rather than euros.

Of course, I will now go back and check and find I'm wrong ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 22, 2015, 06:27:41 PM
Because the gofundme site is vastly better than the PJGA site.
Donations appear instantly, donators can publically state why they are donating, people can see others 'donations instantly, read why they donated, vote on them, and think "oh I see someone has just donated 8K, I have my card here I think I will donate twenty pounds". There is no such interaction on the PJGA or MFNSLUL sites.

Why would that stop FB users from plugging the PJGA one and interacting there?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2015, 06:27:50 PM
True but the "donate" buttons on the website remain in good working order (as of 15 minutes ago). So the website owners have a different view it would seem

                                                              Did I suggest otherwise?

Is there any particular reason you think that people who wish to donate to Madeleine's Fund should not be able to do what they want to do with their own money?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2015, 06:30:55 PM
Not uniquely no.

           I am pleased to have your assurance on that as I was beginning to feel a tad 'pursued' of late.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 22, 2015, 06:32:09 PM
Given the Amaral Beer and Baccy fund is now 4 grand (ish) better off than it was, is it really of any consequence where it came from? Or for that matter is it of consequence where the donors claim it came from and who they claim to be?
Have they done anything illegal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 22, 2015, 06:33:50 PM
                                                              Did I suggest otherwise?

Is there any particular reason you think that people who wish to donate to Madeleine's Fund should not be able to do what they want to do with their own money?

Did I say anything to the contrary?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on September 22, 2015, 06:34:29 PM
Given the Amaral Beer and Baccy fund is now 4 grand (ish) better off than it was, is it really of any consequence where it came from? Or for that matter is it of consequence where the donors claim it came from and who they claim to be?
Have they done anything illegal?

Not at all, but why pass up the opportunity to critisise anything remotely Amarlish ?  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 22, 2015, 06:35:14 PM
I could be wrong.  But I confess I thought all contributions were (at least recorded) in sterling rather than euros.

Of course, I will now go back and check and find I'm wrong ....

Donations on the GFM appear to be required in £, unless there's an option somewhere. Even if there is, someone has to pay the FX.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 22, 2015, 06:43:02 PM
Given the Amaral Beer and Baccy fund is now 4 grand (ish) better off than it was, is it really of any consequence where it came from? Or for that matter is it of consequence where the donors claim it came from and who they claim to be?
Have they done anything illegal?
Dunno.  We don't even know if the Fund really IS better off, or if this donation has simply been recycled from earlier donations. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2015, 06:59:55 PM
Did I say anything to the contrary?

As if ... that would be to belie the unbiased approach you profess in all things McCann ... surely you were merely rejoicing that ...  "the donate buttons on the website (Madeleine McCann's) remain in good working order".

I am content that people who wish to are able to continue to make contributions to Madeleine's Fund ... just as there are those happy to contribute to Mr Amaral's Fund. But thanks for checking the status of Madeleine's Fund, anyway ... it is good to keep up to speed with these things.

 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 22, 2015, 07:34:06 PM
As if ... that would be to belie the unbiased approach you profess in all things McCann ... surely you were merely rejoicing that ...  "the donate buttons on the website (Madeleine McCann's) remain in good working order".

I am content that people who wish to are able to continue to make contributions to Madeleine's Fund ... just as there are those happy to contribute to Mr Amaral's Fund. But thanks for checking the status of Madeleine's Fund, anyway ... it is good to keep up to speed with these things.

You seem to be deflecting.
You said this did you not?
Madeleine's Fund is dedicated to looking for Madeleine ... remember her?  the missing child.

At the moment there is no requirement for her parents to raise money for that ... as the people who have the legal right and the legal powers to do that are currently so doing.

Why do you persist in asking such an unnecessary question ... what point are you trying to make?


"At the moment there is no requirement for her parents to raise money for that"[the search].

I was merely pointing out that whether or not there is a requirement for it, and you say there isn't, they are still raising money for it.
Why be so reticent about it.
It seems to bother you more than it does me.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 07:38:49 PM
As if ... that would be to belie the unbiased approach you profess in all things McCann ... surely you were merely rejoicing that ...  "the donate buttons on the website (Madeleine McCann's) remain in good working order".

I am content that people who wish to are able to continue to make contributions to Madeleine's Fund ... just as there are those happy to contribute to Mr Amaral's Fund. But thanks for checking the status of Madeleine's Fund, anyway ... it is good to keep up to speed with these things.
Keeping up to speed... the MFLNSU site on its "about" page says
"... To provide support, including financial assistance, to Madeleine's family."
Is that true or a fib?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on September 22, 2015, 08:18:36 PM
Gosh,all this spleen venting for a measly 45k for the defence of a vilified man just doing his job, but not a single question about the mllions running into and out of  the Maddie Fund and not shown transparently

SSDD
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 08:29:09 PM
Gosh,all this spleen venting for a measly 45k for the defence of a vilified man just doing his job, but not a single question about the mllions running into and out of  the Maddie Fund and not shown transparently

SSDD
BTW it's 47.23 K actually. And yes I've posed some questions about the opposite fund - like the mysterious third aim their website claims still exists.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on September 22, 2015, 08:32:05 PM
BTW it's 47.23 K actually. And yes I've posed some questions about it - like the mysterious third object they claim still exists.

Sorry Pegs, third object?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 08:34:26 PM
Sorry Pegs, third object?
"... To provide support, including financial assistance, to Madeleine's family."
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on September 22, 2015, 08:41:11 PM
"... To provide support, including financial assistance, to Madeleine's family."



Oh I see, objective!Yes.
Apparently IIRC  ths has been removed from the Funds aims/terms whatever they are called, don't know much about why and when or why it was there in the first place...maybe for thngs like travel expenses and the like, certainly NOT to bankroll them sueing people or using PR agencies to improve their reputations!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2015, 08:43:40 PM
You seem to be deflecting.
You said this did you not?
Madeleine's Fund is dedicated to looking for Madeleine ... remember her?  the missing child.

At the moment there is no requirement for her parents to raise money for that ... as the people who have the legal right and the legal powers to do that are currently so doing.

Why do you persist in asking such an unnecessary question ... what point are you trying to make?


"At the moment there is no requirement for her parents to raise money for that"[the search].

I was merely pointing out that whether or not there is a requirement for it, and you say there isn't, they are still raising money for it.
Why be so reticent about it.
It seems to bother you more than it does me.

I can start my response to your opening statement with "not in the slightest" ...
Similarly I can end it with "not in the slightest" ...

As for the bit in between ... I am singularly relaxed about it even if you profess not to set store, which begs the rhetorical (that means I know the answer so don't worry about answering) question ... why bother? 
The reason I'm content is that Madeleine McCann is being looked for by professionals and Mr Amaral's fund is progressing by leaps and bounds and we may soon have the result of his appeal.

I would be of the opinion that you may have different hopes from me about the desired outcomes ... c'est la vie ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on September 26, 2015, 01:22:55 AM
Just had a gander in Twitter and seen some McCann supporters  alledging that Mr Amaral is money  laundering via gofundme appeal


 *&*%£

very very very sad people, ah well, takes all sorts to make the world go around
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2015, 02:24:46 AM
Just had a gander in Twitter and seen some McCann supporters  alledging that Mr Amaral is money  laundering via gofundme appeal


 *&*%£

very very very sad people, ah well, takes all sorts to make the world go around
The fantastic things about the gfm appeal for pjga are:
1. Any organised attempts to post anti-Amaral comments there would face the interesting dilemma of having to donate at least five pounds per post towards Mr Amaral's legal expenses in order to do so.
2. Any organised attempts on other media to discredit that appeal (and there have been several before this childish money laundering allegation) simply result in a surge of donations to the appeal.

The irony is brilliant.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 26, 2015, 01:33:30 PM
The PJGA clearly states its single object - to pay legal expenses of Mr Amaral.
Why on earth would they spend money on anything else? That is their only aim.

Has any attempt been made to calculate how much money they will need?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on September 26, 2015, 01:40:50 PM
Has any attempt been made to calculate how much money they will need?

I think it would be dependent on what happens from here on in. If Amaral wins his appeal and the McCanns appeal that decision who knows how much time , or indeed money, this case will soak up before we see an end.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2015, 01:47:23 PM
Has any attempt been made to calculate how much money they will need?
I've never seen a calculation.
But both sides will have been given by their respective portuguese lawyers a fairly accurate estimate of what their legal costs are likely to be, for various scenarios.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: carlymichelle on September 26, 2015, 01:49:20 PM
I've never seen a calculation.
But both sides will have been given by their respective portuguese lawyers a fairly accurate estimate of what their legal costs are likely to be, in various scenarios.

to be honest i dont know why  mcann supporters  are  so upset  about people  raising money  for GA  the mcann  supporters  did it for the  mcanns     a  bit hypocritial i  think?  GA isnt  responsible for  whatever  did happen to maddie the  mcanns are   for their lack of childcare etc
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 26, 2015, 02:23:08 PM
to be honest i dont know why  mcann supporters  are  so upset  about people  raising money  for GA  the mcann  supporters  did it for the  mcanns     a  bit hypocritial i  think?  GA isnt  responsible for  whatever  did happen to maddie the  mcanns are   for their lack of childcare etc

No clue where you get the idea from that McCann supporters are upset.

Baffled as to what Amaral's grounds of appeal might be, perhaps.

But that's different ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 26, 2015, 02:32:36 PM
No clue where you get the idea from that McCann supporters are upset.

Baffled as to what Amaral's grounds of appeal might be, perhaps.

But that's different ....

The court clearly was not baffled as it allowed the appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 26, 2015, 02:41:41 PM
The court clearly was not baffled as they allowed the appeal.

appeal against what,...the judgement or the sentence
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 26, 2015, 02:46:23 PM
appeal against what,...the judgement or the sentence
l
Wait and see.

All will be unveiled in due course.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 26, 2015, 02:47:48 PM
appeal against what,...the judgement or the sentence

Who knows?
He would be able to appeal against either and both as he never admitted guilt.
Whatever the court found it acceptable.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 26, 2015, 02:50:20 PM
Who knows?
He would be able to appeal against either and both as he never admitted guilt.
Whatever the court found it acceptable.

So what was the appeal by one of Amaral's sacked lawyers that proceedings be in camera to "protect Madeleine lest Madeleine be alive" if not an admission of guilt (of libel)?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 26, 2015, 02:55:11 PM
So what was the appeal by one of Amaral's sacked lawyers that proceedings be in camera to "protect Madeleine lest Madeleine be alive" if not an admission of guilt (of libel)?

If he admitted guilt as in "entered a plea of guilty" he can only appeal against the sentence.
As for your question you answered it yourself.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on September 26, 2015, 10:22:06 PM
The fantastic things about the gfm appeal for pjga are:
1. Any organised attempts to post anti-Amaral comments there would face the interesting dilemma of having to donate at least five pounds per post towards Mr Amaral's legal expenses in order to do so.
2. Any organised attempts on other media to discredit that appeal (and there have been several before this childish money laundering allegation) simply result in a surge of donations to the appeal.

The irony is brilliant.

It is, it's all rather very silly, IMO, people so inclined  don't put themselves into the danger of getting severe sentences for getting caught for circa 40,000 euros which you can probably easily get by asking for a home improvement loan, get a great new kitchen and bathroom , maybe add nice new wooden floors throughout the house as well and  be inside the law

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 26, 2015, 10:26:57 PM
It is, it's all rather very silly, IMO, people so inclined  don't put themselves into the danger of getting severe sentences for getting caught for circa 40,000 euros which you can probably easily get by asking for a home improvement loan, get a great new kitchen and bathroom , maybe add nice new wooden floors throughout the house as well and  be inside the law

 @)(++(*

I'm just looking forward to amaral getting totally squashed...he's partially squashed now but the rest is on it's way...bless
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 26, 2015, 10:28:22 PM
I'm just looking forward to amaral getting totally squashed...he's partially squashed now but the rest is on it's way...bless

Ah, excellent christian values on display. 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on September 26, 2015, 11:00:31 PM
So what was the appeal by one of Amaral's sacked lawyers that proceedings be in camera to "protect Madeleine lest Madeleine be alive" if not an admission of guilt (of libel)?

Amaral presented a hypothesis/theory....he never said he had found this child's  body...a police theory is not libellous as confirmed by the appellant higher court when his book got unbanned a few years back
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 26, 2015, 11:23:47 PM
Amaral presented a hypothesis/theory....he never said he had found this child's  body...a police theory is not libellous as confirmed by the appellant higher court when his book got unbanned a few years back

I don't think the learned lady judge quite saw it that way ... hence the appeals for monetary gifts to fund Mr Amaral's appeal against her sentence.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on September 26, 2015, 11:38:32 PM
I don't think the learned lady judge quite saw it that way ... hence the appeals for monetary gifts to fund Mr Amaral's appeal against her sentence.

Don't you think she set the damages so high as to almost guarantee an appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 26, 2015, 11:53:46 PM
Don't you think she set the damages so high as to almost guarantee an appeal.

I read somewhere that the sum of the damages awarded are not as extraordinarily high in a civil case as we were led to believe.

I think whoever had lost the case there would have been an appeal. 

I do think there is a lot less pressure on the Drs McCann than there is on Mr Amaral.  They have achieved their aim ~ Madeleine's case has been reopened ~ and they have won their case for libel despite claims to the contrary.

They are still the losers insofar as they do not yet know what became of their little girl ~ but the least that can be hoped for there, is a positive outcome.
This appeal can't even be a minor irritant for them ~ far more important things going on for them at the moment.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on September 27, 2015, 12:19:45 AM
I don't think the learned lady judge quite saw it that way ... hence the appeals for monetary gifts to fund Mr Amaral's appeal against her sentence.

Did the learned judge state Amaral had committed libel?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on September 27, 2015, 01:20:40 AM
Did the learned judge state Amaral had committed libel?

We have gone through this so often before.  Mr Amaral was the defendant in a libel trial which he lost and damages were awarded against him to the pursuers.
What does that tell you?

He is now appealing against the judgement of the court.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 02:40:30 AM
We have gone through this so often before.  Mr Amaral was the defendant in a libel trial which he lost and damages were awarded against him to the pursuers.
What does that tell you?

He is now appealing against the judgement of the court.
According to someone called Anônimo Anônimo:
"... perderam 5 das suas 7 pretensões .... Têm de pagar 60% das custas ..."
which means something like lost 5 of the 7 points, have to pay 60% of costs
That can't be true can it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on September 27, 2015, 03:31:52 AM
We have gone through this so often before.  Mr Amaral was the defendant in a libel trial which he lost and damages were awarded against him to the pursuers.
What does that tell you?

He is now appealing against the judgement of the court.

You didn't answer my question
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 27, 2015, 09:14:49 AM
Amaral presented a hypothesis/theory....he never said he had found this child's  body...a police theory is not libellous as confirmed by the appellant higher court when his book got unbanned a few years back

That needs to be set in proper context.

If Amaral had confined his thoughts and theories to the process, the McCanns would not have been able to touch him, just as they can't touch Almeida for his interim report, because Almeida has never (so far as I am aware) discussed the content of that report outside the process.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on September 27, 2015, 09:16:05 AM
You didn't answer my question

The answer to your question is that there were various proven facts under this, generic, heading:

McCanns v. Gonçalo Amaral: Libel Trial - Judge's Ruling
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on September 27, 2015, 09:33:42 AM
The answer to your question is that there were various proven facts under this, generic, heading:

McCanns v. Gonçalo Amaral: Libel Trial - Judge's Ruling

INCLUDING NUMBERS 6 and 7. 8)--))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 27, 2015, 10:49:41 AM
According to someone called Anônimo Anônimo:
"... perderam 5 das suas 7 pretensões .... Têm de pagar 60% das custas ..."
which means something like lost 5 of the 7 points, have to pay 60% of costs
That can't be true can it?

It depends what "Anônimo Anônimo" *cough* is referring to:

- the claims on behalf of the twins were dismissed (any damage would be indirect)
- no tangible evidence that his spoutings had harmed the search (Paiva said he carried on processing new information; no evidence of a drop of public interest in the case (which I find a bit of an odd conclusion as the PT media lady had said that there were hundreds of articles following the publication / DVD... but largely upholding his theory)
- the proven gains turned out to be less than the original estmated amount.

- They were ordered to pay a higher percentage of costs (58%, from memory). It's not entirely clear whether that would be related to the injunction fees and / or hiring of AV equipment to view the film (which would be borne by the party requesting it).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 27, 2015, 11:01:15 AM
Amaral presented a hypothesis/theory....he never said he had found this child's  body...a police theory is not libellous as confirmed by the appellant higher court when his book got unbanned a few years back

Except for breaking:

- judicial secrecy, or perhaps more importantly in terms of damage, the timing of the launch;
- the duty not to blab about a case you were closely involved in, particularly when it makes a mockery of the judicial principle of the right to the presumption of innocence and the right to a fair trial.

And cherry-picking selected bits from an early phase, incorporating "hearsay", mangling and exaggerating the significance of numerous aspects and presenting it as expert opinion.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on September 27, 2015, 11:01:35 AM
That needs to be set in proper context.

If Amaral had confined his thoughts and theories to the process, the McCanns would not have been able to touch him, just as they can't touch Almeida for his interim report, because Almeida has never (so far as I am aware) discussed the content of that report outside the process.

If Amaral had not previously been a serving police officer and written the book with knowledge gleaned from that role then the judgement would not have gone against him. The judgement was not about the truth of his thesis but that his former role precluded him from writing the book at all.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 11:44:40 AM
It depends what "Anônimo Anônimo" *cough* is referring to:

- the claims on behalf of the twins were dismissed (any damage would be indirect)
- no tangible evidence that his spoutings had harmed the search (Paiva said he carried on processing new information; no evidence of a drop of public interest in the case (which I find a bit of an odd conclusion as the PT media lady had said that there were hundreds of articles following the publication / DVD... but largely upholding his theory)
- the proven gains turned out to be less than the original estmated amount.

- They were ordered to pay a higher percentage of costs (58%, from memory). It's not entirely clear whether that would be related to the injunction fees and / or hiring of AV equipment to view the film (which would be borne by the party requesting it).
"no tangible evidence that his spoutings had harmed the search"
If that's true then which of the two "objects" of the MF would be furthered by this libel case?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 27, 2015, 12:52:44 PM
"no tangible evidence that his spoutings had harmed the search"
If that's true then which of the two "objects" of the MF would be furthered by this libel case?

When the action began the fund still had 'supporting the family' as one of it's aims. That changed during the process. The only payout ordered was to the parents. If they win on appeal I expect the money will go into the Fund (less costs). If they lose the question then is should the costs be paid by the Fund?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 01:14:57 PM
When the action began the fund still had 'supporting the family' as one of it's aims. That changed during the process. The only payout ordered was to the parents. If they win on appeal I expect the money will go into the Fund (less costs). If they lose the question then is should the costs be paid by the Fund?
The lawyers and other legal costs of the libel case against Mr Amaral are presumably currently being paid by someone (unless the lawyers happy to do probono for their foreign clients for 6+ yrs?)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 27, 2015, 01:38:36 PM
When the action began the fund still had 'supporting the family' as one of it's aims. That changed during the process. The only payout ordered was to the parents. If they win on appeal I expect the money will go into the Fund (less costs). If they lose the question then is should the costs be paid by the Fund?

As we are told, the process isn't over...

Perhaps you truly believe that a former heroic expert insisting that the child is no longer potentially findable (alive or not), and no potential perp that you may know could in any way be involved (as the parents definitely dunnit) would not have hindered potentially useful information coming forward. And this was at a time when there was no live investigation.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 27, 2015, 01:42:31 PM
"no tangible evidence that his spoutings had harmed the search"
If that's true then which of the two "objects" of the MF would be furthered by this libel case?

The search and bringing the perp to justice. Insisting that she's dead, her parents are innit, at a time when there was no live investigation, hampered that, IMO, even if it couldn't be empirically proven to the judge's satisfaction.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on September 27, 2015, 02:07:52 PM
The search and bringing the perp to justice. Insisting that she's dead, her parents are innit, at a time when there was no live investigation, hampered that, IMO, even if it couldn't be empirically proven to the judge's satisfaction.

But that's the problem Carana. You say IYO that Amaral hampered the search. The evidence shows that many, many members of the public during the time the investigation was closed came forward with sightings etc ( even Duarte's claim that Pavia didn't follow up these signings proves this ). The available evidence does not prove your contention, in fact it proves the opposite so why do you still feel the opposite is true ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 02:20:13 PM
But that's the problem Carana. You say IYO that Amaral hampered the search. The evidence shows that many, many members of the public during the time the investigation was closed came forward with sightings etc ( even Duarte's claim that Pavia didn't follow up these signings proves this ). The available evidence does not prove your contention, in fact it proves the opposite so why do you still feel the opposite is true ?
Mr Amaral's book cannot possibly have impeded or prevented the ongoing very active search by both SY and the PJ.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on September 27, 2015, 02:22:55 PM
Mr Amaral's book cannot possibly have impeded or prevented the ongoing very active search by both SY and the PJ.

Or indeed the archived or private investigations.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 27, 2015, 03:58:28 PM
But that's the problem Carana. You say IYO that Amaral hampered the search. The evidence shows that many, many members of the public during the time the investigation was closed came forward with sightings etc ( even Duarte's claim that Pavia didn't follow up these signings proves this ). The available evidence does not prove your contention, in fact it proves the opposite so why do you still feel the opposite is true ?

"Sightings" by anyone was still guaranteed news sales for the media - whether it was by psychics or anyone else, or indeed genuine or invented by hacks with 15 mins. to produce something to fill space.

Some may not have taken much notice of his spoutings (I haven't said the contrary) in NZ, US, India, plus numerous "psychics", but those who might have genuinely have had potentially useful info would have connections with PdL - which is where she disappeared.

Some people may be either predisposed to the dunnit theory, or have been slowly led to that theory via selected translations of articles relating to the idea the X police force is one of the best in the world, then you / one could tend to believe that.

Once that has been "established", it's not that easy to stand back and reassess. Particularly, possibly, if you are local, someone connected to you has had business/ employment affected, someone in your family has been under suspicion before when it was clearly nothing to do with your loved ones and you were terrified of it happening again... you do have a suspicion but can't say anything for whatever reason...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on September 27, 2015, 04:12:02 PM
"Sightings" by anyone was still guaranteed news sales for the media - whether it was by psychics or anyone else, or indeed genuine or invented by hacks with 15 mins. to produce something to fill space.

Some may not have taken much notice of his spoutings (I haven't said the contrary) in NZ, US, India, plus numerous "psychics", but those who might have genuinely have had potentially useful info would have connections with PdL - which is where she disappeared.

Some people may be either predisposed to the dunnit theory, or have been slowly led to that theory via selected translations of articles relating to the idea the X police force is one of the best in the world, then you / one could tend to believe that.

Once that has been "established", it's not that easy to stand back and reassess. Particularly, possibly, if you are local, someone connected to you has had business/ employment affected, someone in your family has been under suspicion before when it was clearly nothing to do with your loved ones and you were terrified of it happening again... you do have a suspicion but can't say anything for whatever reason...

I'm sorry Carana I may be missing something but what have your last two paragraphs got to do with the possible implications of Amaral's book on the search for Madeleine ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on September 27, 2015, 04:39:46 PM
I'm sorry Carana I may be missing something but what have your last two paragraphs got to do with the possible implications of Amaral's book on the search for Madeleine ?

Establishing or reinforcing views to the detriment of the missing child?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lyall on September 27, 2015, 05:09:18 PM
If Amaral had not previously been a serving police officer and written the book with knowledge gleaned from that role then the judgement would not have gone against him. The judgement was not about the truth of his thesis but that his former role precluded him from writing the book at all.

%£&)**# That seems to be the situation, Faith.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on September 27, 2015, 05:19:56 PM
The lawyers and other legal costs of the libel case against Mr Amaral are presumably currently being paid by someone (unless the lawyers happy to do probono for their foreign clients for 6+ yrs?)

The MF paid for witnesses to travel to Portugal to give evidence. The Board seems to be in agreement that suing Amaral was the right thing to do because it harmed the search. Although this wasn't proven I don't suppose they have changed their minds. Account statement 2012-203;

'The Fund has covered expenses for witnesses giving evidence in a libel trial in Lisbon against Goncalo Amaral (former coordinator of the Portuguese investigator to find Madeleine). Mr Amaral published a book in 2008 and produced a documentary and DVD in 2009 which claimed Madeleine was dead and that her parents faked an abduction and concealed her body. This has caused vast damage to the search for Madeleine in Portugal (where it is most likely that information relating to Madeleine’s abduction and whereabouts will come from.) The Board felt that an attempt to halt this damage was vital in order to further the search for Madeleine hence taking this course of action.'
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 06:28:47 PM
The MF paid for witnesses to travel to Portugal to give evidence. The Board seems to be in agreement that suing Amaral was the right thing to do because it harmed the search. Although this wasn't proven I don't suppose they have changed their minds. Account statement 2012-203;

'The Fund has covered expenses for witnesses giving evidence in a libel trial in Lisbon against Goncalo Amaral (former coordinator of the Portuguese investigator to find Madeleine). Mr Amaral published a book in 2008 and produced a documentary and DVD in 2009 which claimed Madeleine was dead and that her parents faked an abduction and concealed her body. This has caused vast damage to the search for Madeleine in Portugal (where it is most likely that information relating to Madeleine’s abduction and whereabouts will come from.) The Board felt that an attempt to halt this damage was vital in order to further the search for Madeleine hence taking this course of action.'
To be fair that is indeed transparency - the directors said what they were doing and the reasoning behind it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on October 03, 2015, 10:02:23 PM
Is 7 October the date set for the appeal hearing?  I've seen it banded around.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on October 03, 2015, 10:08:15 PM
Is 7 October the date set for the appeal hearing?  I've seen it banded around.

That's what I've heard too Mercury.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on October 03, 2015, 10:36:28 PM
Is 7 October the date set for the appeal hearing?  I've seen it banded around.
Yes Oct 7, but is that when the decision is made, or just the start of a long process?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on October 03, 2015, 10:41:09 PM
Thanks FL

Pegasus, someone knowledgable will hopefully come and tell us, but in this case the appeal hearings/decisions thereafter haven't taken that long have they?, it's the tme in between appeal and hearing that can do

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on October 03, 2015, 10:56:27 PM
Thanks FL

Pegasus, someone knowledgable will hopefully come and tell us, but in this case the appeal hearings/decisions thereafter haven't taken that long have they?, it's the tme in between appeal and hearing that can do
If so then I expect a stock of pink articles is at the ready, just in case.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on October 03, 2015, 11:00:04 PM
If so then I expect a stock of pink articles is at the ready, just in case.

Pinky himself is probably fed up by now, as he has been for a few years, don't expect him going in blustering his guts  away to sky to demanding that the PJs heads are knocked together!! It's obvious he wants a quiet life, he's not been on telly for ages and ages, thank god lol

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on October 03, 2015, 11:09:40 PM
Pinky himself is probably fed up by now, as he has been for a few years, don't expect him going in blustering his guts  away to sky to demanding that the PJs heads are knocked together!!
Previously prepared press prose appeared on the day it became known the appeal would be heard.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on October 03, 2015, 11:11:44 PM
The judge from the civil court will be sending all of the paperwork to the appeals court on 7 October. There will be no public hearing and no witnesses will be heard by the 3 judges of the appeals court. They will study the appeals, the counter appeals and the judge's verdict and then they will announce their decision. When? No one knows.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on October 03, 2015, 11:13:25 PM
Previously prepared press prose appeared on the day it became known the appeal would be heard.

According to Portuguese law, the right to appeal is always guaranteed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on October 03, 2015, 11:14:52 PM
The judge from the civil court will be sending all of the paperwork to the appeals court on 7 October. There will be no public hearing and no witnesses will be heard by the 3 judges of the appeals court. They will study the appeals, the counter appeals and the judge's verdict and then they will announce their decision. When? No one knows.

Thanks Montclair.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on October 03, 2015, 11:50:07 PM
According to Portuguese law, the right to appeal is always guaranteed.
Yes you are right Montclair, my apologies, and I see you did point this out long ago. However I was just noting the coincidence between the day that the Oct 7 date became known, and the day when the "setting aside money for the search" article appeared.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on October 03, 2015, 11:52:38 PM
Yes you are right Montclair, my apologies, and I see you did point this out long ago. However I was just noting the coincidence between the day that the Oct 7 date became known, and the day when the "setting aside money for the search" article appeared.

Why would the Mccanns say in public when their accounts are not in public what they are doing with their money..

Thank you Montclair for the explanation, so basically does that mean it will take as long as the judges take in discussing it? Rather than long other procedures?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on October 05, 2015, 05:31:01 PM
By the end of the day Amaral's fund should reach £50,000 thanks in no small part to the wonderful publicity it received in Jerry Lawton's article today in the Star.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on October 05, 2015, 05:34:26 PM
Certainly an noticeable  boost today.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on October 05, 2015, 06:08:49 PM
Why would the closure of Madeleine McCann's account on social media be a reason to boost Mr Amaral's funding appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on October 05, 2015, 06:10:36 PM
Why would the closure of Madeleine McCann's account on social media be a reason to boost Mr Amaral's funding appeal?

It wasn't. The article was.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 05, 2015, 06:13:10 PM
Why would the closure of Madeleine McCann's account on social media be a reason to boost Mr Amaral's funding appeal?
Any publicity the Fund gets is an excuse for the same old bunch of trolls to dig into their pockets for the umpteenth time in order to give the impression that thousands of new donors have been turned on to it.  It's extraordinarily pitiful to watch. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on October 05, 2015, 06:17:32 PM
Hey Alfie, I thought you were going to lighten up.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on October 05, 2015, 06:47:56 PM
Any publicity the Fund gets is an excuse for the same old bunch of trolls to dig into their pockets for the umpteenth time in order to give the impression that thousands of new donors have been turned on to it.  It's extraordinarily pitiful to watch.

NO.

Just SOUR GRAPES.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on October 05, 2015, 07:32:43 PM
Due to the publicity today, the fund is now £ 50.030,--. The McCanns must be ever so exasperated now.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on October 05, 2015, 07:33:33 PM
Furious is the favoured word  ?{)(**

A few tempers will be frayed tonight, no doubt.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 05, 2015, 07:58:48 PM
Due to the publicity today, the fund is now £ 50.030,--. The McCanns must be ever so exasperated now.
How much has been taken out of this fund already do we know?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on October 05, 2015, 10:24:22 PM
How much has been taken out of this fund already do we know?

Did you donate ? If not then it's none of your business.........or at least that's what you tell us about the 'fund'.

Anyway excellent news and well done again to Jerry Lawton.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on October 05, 2015, 10:46:33 PM
According to Portuguese law, the right to appeal is always guaranteed.

Not true.

The right to appeal is more liberally interpreted than (for example) in English law, but it is not automatic.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 05, 2015, 10:56:08 PM
Nicolas Bernoulli was the first person to state the St Petersburg Paradox. His brother Daniel came up with a resolution to it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 05, 2015, 11:21:37 PM
Did you donate ? If not then it's none of your business.........or at least that's what you tell us about the 'fund'.

Anyway excellent news and well done again to Jerry Lawton.
I donated £5 actually, so I think I have every right to question it. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on October 05, 2015, 11:28:02 PM
I donated £5 actually, so I think I have every right to question it.

Of course you did Alfie !!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on October 05, 2015, 11:28:27 PM
I donated £5 actually, so I think I have every right to question it.

What happened when you asked for a refund?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on October 06, 2015, 09:55:25 AM
Not true.

The right to appeal is more liberally interpreted than (for example) in English law, but it is not automatic.

If the appellant fulfills the 4 bureaucratic conditions, the appeal goes automatically to the higher court. There are no other conditions. The lower court judge can't say, "I find your arguments weak and irrelevant, so I won't send them to the appeals court". You seem to be the only one here who does not understand how the law works here in Portugal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on October 06, 2015, 10:15:02 AM
If the appellant fulfills the 4 bureaucratic conditions, the appeal goes automatically to the higher court. There are no other conditions. The lower court judge can't say, "I find your arguments weak and irrelevant, so I won't send them to the appeals court". You seem to be the only one here who does not understand how the law works here in Portugal.
 
Not the only one.  I seem to recall Jean-Pierre was surprised that he managed to squeeze out an appeal that was accepted.

Still, I'm sure Amaral's (present) lawyer will have great success in persuading learned judges of a higher court that directly accusing a couple against whom Portuguese prosecutors could find no evidence of any wrong-doing of causing the death of their own daughter, covering up the "fact" of her death and launching a fraudulent "fund" in their (dead) daughter's name is not libel.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on October 06, 2015, 10:55:31 AM
 
Not the only one.  I seem to recall Jean-Pierre was surprised that he managed to squeeze out an appeal that was accepted.

Still, I'm sure Amaral's (present) lawyer will have great success in persuading learned judges of a higher court that directly accusing a couple against whom Portuguese prosecutors could find no evidence of any wrong-doing of causing the death of their own daughter, covering up the "fact" of her death and launching a fraudulent "fund" in their (dead) daughter's name is not libel.

Are you for real? Jean-Pierre said;

 September 07, 2015, 09:57:37 AM »
For what its worth, my thoughts on the news of Amaral's appeal are as follows:

Under Portuguese law, Amaral has a right to appeal the decision of the court, as is right and proper.

There are three possibilities:

That the appeal count will agree the original verdict in which case no further appeals will be allowed

That the appeal court modify the verdict, in which either party can appeal.

That the appeal count overturn the original verdict, in which either party can appeal (probably the McCanns)



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on October 06, 2015, 10:58:55 AM
Are you for real? Jean-Pierre said;

 September 07, 2015, 09:57:37 AM »
For what its worth, my thoughts on the news of Amaral's appeal are as follows:

Under Portuguese law, Amaral has a right to appeal the decision of the court, as is right and proper.

There are three possibilities:

That the appeal count will agree the original verdict in which case no further appeals will be allowed

That the appeal court modify the verdict, in which either party can appeal.

That the appeal count overturn the original verdict, in which either party can appeal (probably the McCanns)


Seems perfectly straightforward to me. The appeal is underway and all we have to do is wait for the result.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on October 06, 2015, 12:04:58 PM
Are you for real? Jean-Pierre said;

 September 07, 2015, 09:57:37 AM »
For what its worth, my thoughts on the news of Amaral's appeal are as follows:

Under Portuguese law, Amaral has a right to appeal the decision of the court, as is right and proper.

There are three possibilities:

That the appeal count will agree the original verdict in which case no further appeals will be allowed

That the appeal court modify the verdict, in which either party can appeal.

That the appeal count overturn the original verdict, in which either party can appeal (probably the McCanns)

Jean-Pierre didn't dispute Amaral's right to lodge an appeal.

He was surprised the appeal lodged was accepted (for consideration by the higher court).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on October 06, 2015, 01:56:59 PM
Jean-Pierre didn't dispute Amaral's right to lodge an appeal.

He was surprised the appeal lodged was accepted (for consideration by the higher court).

i know that the much admired (by some) OxfordBloo thought there were no grounds for an appeal, but I can't find where Jean-Pierre said what you are alleging. i'm sure you can find the post you're referring to though.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on October 06, 2015, 02:00:52 PM
Are you for real? Jean-Pierre said;

 September 07, 2015, 09:57:37 AM »
For what its worth, my thoughts on the news of Amaral's appeal are as follows:

Under Portuguese law, Amaral has a right to appeal the decision of the court, as is right and proper.

There are three possibilities:

That the appeal count will agree the original verdict in which case no further appeals will be allowed

That the appeal court modify the verdict, in which either party can appeal.

That the appeal count overturn the original verdict, in which either party can appeal (probably the McCanns)

I think, what we miss, in our discussion of this point is the middle stage in a 3-stage process (of appeal).

If one party is dissatisfied with the outcome of the first stage of a litigation dispute (even as a victor) yes, there is automatic recourse to apply for leave to appeal.

That's the first stage.

The second stage is that said (submitted) grounds are either accepted or rejected.

I think the bar for acceptance of those grounds is lower in Portugal than in UK, but still, there is a bar.

Jean-Pierre was of the view that Amaral's (lodged) appeal would come under the bar and be rejected.

Seemingly, it made it over the bar and was accepted.

But to be clear, there is a distinction between automatic right to lodge grounds of appeal and the supposition that grounds lodged will be accepted.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on October 06, 2015, 02:44:21 PM
I think, what we miss, in our discussion of this point is the middle stage in a 3-stage process (of appeal).

If one party is dissatisfied with the outcome of the first stage of a litigation dispute (even as a victor) yes, there is automatic recourse to apply for leave to appeal.

That's the first stage.

The second stage is that said (submitted) grounds are either accepted or rejected.

I think the bar for acceptance of those grounds is lower in Portugal than in UK, but still, there is a bar.

Jean-Pierre was of the view that Amaral's (lodged) appeal would come under the bar and be rejected.

Seemingly, it made it over the bar and was accepted.

But to be clear, there is a distinction between automatic right to lodge grounds of appeal and the supposition that grounds lodged will be accepted.

No cite?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 06, 2015, 03:43:22 PM

Seems perfectly straightforward to me. The appeal is underway and all we have to do is wait for the result.

When has anything been straightforward in this case?
There appear to be two flags in the ground on this.
1 He has submitted an application to appeal which has been accepted and is being payed for in part by funds raised through a GoFundMe page.
2 There are no grounds for appeal so he is telling porkies and the GoFundMeAmaral set up is hooky.

Take your pick  8(0(*




Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on October 06, 2015, 04:59:45 PM
No cite?

Scroll down to the 6th post in this link:

Mod: Links to other fora is not allowed
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on October 07, 2015, 11:18:52 AM
So I wasn't allowed the link before.

Try this one:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6269.msg245147#msg245147
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on October 07, 2015, 12:53:40 PM
So I wasn't allowed the link before.

Try this one:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6269.msg245147#msg245147

So he and OxfordBloo were both wrong it appears. We shall see what the appeal court decides. If they agree with the lower court it's the end of the process. If they disagree with the lower court the saga continues. What seems clear is that none of us can predict what will happen next.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on October 07, 2015, 02:11:06 PM
I think, what we miss, in our discussion of this point is the middle stage in a 3-stage process (of appeal).

If one party is dissatisfied with the outcome of the first stage of a litigation dispute (even as a victor) yes, there is automatic recourse to apply for leave to appeal.

That's the first stage.

The second stage is that said (submitted) grounds are either accepted or rejected.

I think the bar for acceptance of those grounds is lower in Portugal than in UK, but still, there is a bar.

Jean-Pierre was of the view that Amaral's (lodged) appeal would come under the bar and be rejected.

Seemingly, it made it over the bar and was accepted.

But to be clear, there is a distinction between automatic right to lodge grounds of appeal and the supposition that grounds lodged will be accepted.

You still don't or don't want to understand! His appeal was sent to the higher court because the process complied with the 4 bureaucratic conditions: the crime or whatever can be appealed according to the law, the fees are paid, the person who files the appeal is the one concerned and the appeal is filed within the time limit. That is ALL!!! No one decides whether the arguments given are valid enough to go to a higher court. It is just not done like this in Portugal. The right to appeal is automatic and it is the higher court which will judge the arguments or grounds. There is no intermediary phase as you state. This is not England.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on October 07, 2015, 02:19:37 PM
You still don't or don't want to understand! His appeal was sent to the higher court because the process complied with the 4 bureaucratic conditions: the crime or whatever can be appealed according to the law, the fees are paid, the person who files the appeal is the one concerned and the appeal is filed within the time limit. That is ALL!!! No one decides whether the arguments given are valid enough to go to a higher court. It is just not done like this in Portugal. The right to appeal is automatic and it is the higher court which will judge the arguments or grounds. There is no intermediary phase as you state. This is not England.

However, the appeal must have substance, and challenge either proven facts or specific points of law.

(Jean-Pierre)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on October 07, 2015, 02:23:49 PM
You still don't or don't want to understand! His appeal was sent to the higher court because the process complied with the 4 bureaucratic conditions: the crime or whatever can be appealed according to the law, the fees are paid, the person who files the appeal is the one concerned and the appeal is filed within the time limit. That is ALL!!! No one decides whether the arguments given are valid enough to go to a higher court. It is just not done like this in Portugal. The right to appeal is automatic and it is the higher court which will judge the arguments or grounds. There is no intermediary phase as you state. This is not England.

Thanks, Montclair.
So the question " Will the appeal be accepted" as discussed by many, a short time ago, was a waste of time, really?
If these basic conditions(as your post) are met, then it would automatically to be accepted by Portuguese law. It is now up to the court, to decide and rule on its findings. Is that correct?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on October 07, 2015, 02:48:04 PM
However, the appeal must have substance, and challenge either proven facts or specific points of law.

(Jean-Pierre)

Just my opinion, but I find this 'proven fact' quite strange;

13. Because of the statements made by defendant Gonçalo Amaral in the book, in the documentary and in the interview to Correio  da Manhã, authors Kate McCann and Gerald McCann suffer permanent anguish, insomnia, lack of appetite, anxiety and irritability, preoccupation and indefinable fear?

       Proved.

      The judge adds that this psychological state is predates the book launch, the documentary and the interview and was not caused by them. Nonetheless, it is not unreasonable to believe that the book, the documentary and the interview had an effect on the couple, i.e. It had an effect but that is to be expected.

Firstly, there is no medical evidence as to the McCann's state of mind. Insomnia? Do they need sleeping pills? Anxiety? Are they on medication for that? How can the judge say that these conditions existed when there was no expert evidence given? She assumes they existed, and says they weren't caused by Amaral. The best she can say is that what he did 'had an effect' (she believes?). That all seems quite imprecise to me.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on October 07, 2015, 02:55:26 PM
Just my opinion, but I find this 'proven fact' quite strange;

13. Because of the statements made by defendant Gonçalo Amaral in the book, in the documentary and in the interview to Correio  da Manhã, authors Kate McCann and Gerald McCann suffer permanent anguish, insomnia, lack of appetite, anxiety and irritability, preoccupation and indefinable fear?

       Proved.

      The judge adds that this psychological state is predates the book launch, the documentary and the interview and was not caused by them. Nonetheless, it is not unreasonable to believe that the book, the documentary and the interview had an effect on the couple, i.e. It had an effect but that is to be expected.

Firstly, there is no medical evidence as to the McCann's state of mind. Insomnia? Do they need sleeping pills? Anxiety? Are they on medication for that? How can the judge say that these conditions existed when there was no expert evidence given? She assumes they existed, and says they weren't caused by Amaral. The best she can say is that what he did 'had an effect' (she believes?). That all seems quite imprecise to me.

It all seems plain common sense to me.

I guess that's where we differ.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on October 07, 2015, 05:06:40 PM
i know that the much admired (by some) OxfordBloo thought there were no grounds for an appeal, but I can't find where Jean-Pierre said what you are alleging. i'm sure you can find the post you're referring to though.

accuracy please..oxford bloo said the only grounds for appeal as far as he could see was on the level of damages...amaral has stated he is appealing the sentence........so that seems to fit
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on October 07, 2015, 06:05:08 PM
It all seems plain common sense to me.

I guess that's where we differ.

Well it would, wouldn't it. Most courts don't rely on 'common sense', they insist on evidence before they say something is proved.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on October 07, 2015, 06:13:05 PM
accuracy please..oxford bloo said the only grounds for appeal as far as he could see was on the level of damages...amaral has stated he is appealing the sentence........so that seems to fit

OxfordBloo said so very much;


OxfordBloo
Guest

Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2015, 02:00:50 PM »
Quote
Quote from: davel on May 01, 2015, 01:58:10 PM
so you think his request for appeal will be refused

I cannot see what his grounds for appeal could possibly be. *&*%£ *&*%£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on October 07, 2015, 06:47:15 PM
OxfordBloo said so very much;


OxfordBloo
Guest

Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2015, 02:00:50 PM »
Quote
Quote from: davel on May 01, 2015, 01:58:10 PM
so you think his request for appeal will be refused

I cannot see what his grounds for appeal could possibly be. *&*%£ *&*%£

You sceptics are very good at taking things out of context
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 07, 2015, 06:49:53 PM
You sceptics are very good at taking things out of context

Aw goo on then, give us the full quote so we can see the full context then revise our views if we think it is appropriate.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on October 07, 2015, 06:53:24 PM
OxfordBloo said so very much;


OxfordBloo
Guest

Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2015, 02:00:50 PM »
Quote
Quote from: davel on May 01, 2015, 01:58:10 PM
so you think his request for appeal will be refused

I cannot see what his grounds for appeal could possibly be. *&*%£ *&*%£

Quote
Quote from: OxfordBloo on May 02, 2015, 08:31:58 AM
One can only appeal if one has grounds.

One can only appeal to the ECHR if it is a matter of Human Rights- it is not a Supreme Court, only a Tribunal interpreting the European Convention.

Legal Costs also build on each side. In Portugal I understand that lawyers fees are paid by each side and there are rarely costs awarded against one side alone.

I can see no easy grounds for appeal- appeals are not automatic and require permission.

I understand that the McCanns are indemnified for their legal costs a d Amaral is not.

I think it may be over bar the shouting.

Oxford Blue .....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on October 07, 2015, 08:27:28 PM
Oxford Blue .....

Wrong again then.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on October 07, 2015, 08:32:41 PM
Wrong again then.

Bodes ill for Amaral's chances in the appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on October 07, 2015, 08:46:17 PM
Bodes ill for Amaral's chances in the appeal.

Rubbish. OxfordBloo got it wrong.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on October 07, 2015, 08:50:12 PM
Bodes ill for Amaral's chances in the appeal.

I do  hope he wins his appeal - it'll make you so cross  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on October 07, 2015, 10:33:52 PM
Just my opinion, but I find this 'proven fact' quite strange;

13. Because of the statements made by defendant Gonçalo Amaral in the book, in the documentary and in the interview to Correio  da Manhã, authors Kate McCann and Gerald McCann suffer permanent anguish, insomnia, lack of appetite, anxiety and irritability, preoccupation and indefinable fear?

       Proved.

      The judge adds that this psychological state is predates the book launch, the documentary and the interview and was not caused by them. Nonetheless, it is not unreasonable to believe that the book, the documentary and the interview had an effect on the couple, i.e. It had an effect but that is to be expected.

Firstly, there is no medical evidence as to the McCann's state of mind. Insomnia? Do they need sleeping pills? Anxiety? Are they on medication for that? How can the judge say that these conditions existed when there was no expert evidence given? She assumes they existed, and says they weren't caused by Amaral. The best she can say is that what he did 'had an effect' (she believes?). That all seems quite imprecise to me.

The bit that I've highlighted in blue is the "common experience" leeway in PT law.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on October 07, 2015, 10:45:33 PM
I find that Oxford Bloo correctly drilled down to the basic issues in the a quo court ruling.

On the other hand, I agree with Montclair that an appeal process was likely to be accepted.

It's simply not the same system.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on October 07, 2015, 11:02:25 PM
I find that Oxford Bloo correctly drilled down to the basic issues in the a quo court ruling.

On the other hand, I agree with Montclair that an appeal process was likely to be accepted.

It's simply not the same system.

I agree, he helped me to understand the ruling, but he wasn't right about the appeal process.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on October 13, 2015, 05:40:55 PM
Just posted on gofundme:

£10
Paul Rees
3 hours ago
Tenner Tuesday. May the presiding appeal judges see how nonsensical the amount awarded was, given the farcical statements of the witnesses who undermined the McCanns' position with almost every word they uttered. Incomprehensible and just plain wrong.


Well, well.

I wonder if we have a clue of the basis of Amaral's appeal?

 

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on October 13, 2015, 05:45:32 PM
Just posted on gofundme:

£10
Paul Rees
3 hours ago
Tenner Tuesday. May the presiding appeal judges see how nonsensical the amount awarded was, given the farcical statements of the witnesses who undermined the McCanns' position with almost every word they uttered. Incomprehensible and just plain wrong.


Well, well.

I wonder if we have a clue of the basis of Amaral's appeal?

Why would he know?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on October 13, 2015, 05:46:52 PM
Why would he know?

Why wouldn't he?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on October 13, 2015, 05:50:58 PM
Why wouldn't he?

Well, as far as I know he has no special relationship with Amaral. He's just giving his hopes for the appeal as he donates.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on October 13, 2015, 05:58:14 PM
Well, as far as I know he has no special relationship with Amaral. He's just giving his hopes for the appeal as he donates.

The formulation of Amaral's defence and the output on internet message boards does seem to show a causal relation.

A single example will suffice.  It was first mooted on message boards that the McCanns might not be able to bring a legal action in the name of their missing daughter, Madeleine.

And that tack was adopted by Amaral's legal team, but, (as we know) fell flat.

Odd, because Madeleine's name definitely featured in actions brought in respect of the injunction ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on October 13, 2015, 07:11:42 PM
The formulation of Amaral's defence and the output on internet message boards does seem to show a causal relation.

A single example will suffice.  It was first mooted on message boards that the McCanns might not be able to bring a legal action in the name of their missing daughter, Madeleine.

And that tack was adopted by Amaral's legal team, but, (as we know) fell flat.

Odd, because Madeleine's name definitely featured in actions brought in respect of the injunction ....

Why not let the appeal court do it's job ?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 13, 2015, 05:54:01 PM
So what became of Amaral's confirmed appeal?

Does anyone know?

ETA:

Against the libel verdict in favour of the McCanns ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on November 13, 2015, 05:58:20 PM
So what became of Amaral's confirmed appeal?

Does anyone know?

ETA:

Against the libel verdict in favour of the McCanns ....

As you well know the word libel was not mentioned once in the court proceedings.  The McCanns sought and won damages because of the injury Mr Amaral caused to their reputations.

Personally I cannot see how any judge could come to that decision without knowing the truth surrounding Madeleine's disappearance.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 13, 2015, 06:00:23 PM
As you well know the word libel was not mentioned once in the court proceedings.  It was a damages case.

Amaral's support site...who have paid his lawyer...based in Portugal...refer to it as a Libel trial
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 13, 2015, 06:06:00 PM
Amaral's support site...who have paid his lawyer...based in Portugal...refer to it as a Libel trial

Quite so.

Damage is awarded in respect of something (specified).  That might be libel, slander, nuisance or some other (uk) tort.

Don't know whether civil violations are called the same in Portugal, but broadly the same principles apply.

http://www.inbrief.co.uk/claim-preparations/the-law-of-tort.htm
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on November 13, 2015, 06:27:02 PM
Amaral's support site...who have paid his lawyer...based in Portugal...refer to it as a Libel trial

Totally irrelevant.  As previously pointed out several times to those who don't like it, the words libel and defamation (difamação) do not appear anywhere in the official Portuguese judgement.  That's good enough for me!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 13, 2015, 06:33:10 PM
Totally irrelevant.  As previously pointed out several times to those who don't like it, the words libel and defamation (difamação) do not appear anywhere in the official Portuguese judgement.  That's good enough for me!

Why would you expect them to?

As has also been pointed out, damage is never paid in its own right.

It is always paid in respect of something.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 13, 2015, 06:35:50 PM
Why would you expect them to?

As has also been pointed out, damage is never paid in its own right.

It is always paid in respect of something.

This trial should never had occurred as Angelo quote rightly stated, as the cause of Madeleine's disappearance remains unknown
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on November 13, 2015, 06:54:58 PM
Why would you expect them to?

As has also been pointed out, damage is never paid in its own right.

It is always paid in respect of something.

Its clear for anyone to see, the judgement did not seek to prove defamation.  It will be an eye opener however as to what the appeal court make of it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 13, 2015, 06:57:18 PM
Its clear for anyone to see, the judgement did not seek to prove defamation.  It will be an eye opener however as to what the appeal court make of it.
What were the damages awarded for?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 13, 2015, 07:11:59 PM
As you well know the word libel was not mentioned once in the court proceedings.  The McCanns sought and won damages because of the injury Mr Amaral caused to their reputations.

Personally I cannot see how any judge could come to that decision without knowing the truth surrounding Madeleine's disappearance.

I guess if you think of it as happening in the UK, it was as if Redwood retired then wrote a book saying they had done it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 13, 2015, 10:03:26 PM
I guess if you think of it as happening in the UK, it was as if Redwood retired then wrote a book saying they had done it.

Well, thats never going to happen

 @)(++(*

unless he publishes shortly before he dies or if the Mccanns are ever found out to be actually involved (thats if he ever thought it in the first place)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on November 14, 2015, 03:02:24 AM
What were the damages awarded for?

They were a claim for damages made by the McCanns as compensation for the embarrassment and trauma suffered by them following the publication of Mr Amaral's book and dvd.   Defamation does not feature once in the case.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 14, 2015, 08:26:21 AM
They were a claim for damages made by the McCanns as compensation for the embarrassment and trauma suffered by them following the publication of Mr Amaral's book and dvd.   Defamation does not feature once in the case.
do the words "embarrassment" and "trauma" feature in the ruling then?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on November 14, 2015, 10:24:24 AM
do the words "embarrassment" and "trauma" feature in the ruling then?

Not as such but since you fail to understand the case I wanted to respond in terms you could understand my dear fellow.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 14, 2015, 10:43:30 AM
So no news of Amaral's appeal against the libel decision in favour of the McCanns, then?

Thought not ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 14, 2015, 10:47:45 AM
So no news of Amaral's appeal against the libel decision in favour of the McCanns, then?

Thought not ....

Has the appeal result been given ? 8)-)))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on November 14, 2015, 11:28:14 AM
So no news of Amaral's appeal against the libel decision in favour of the McCanns, then?

Thought not ....

Such an important matter requires careful thought and consideration ferryman, you wouldn't want them to come to the wrong conclusion would you.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 14, 2015, 11:58:56 AM
So no news of Amaral's appeal against the libel decision in favour of the McCanns, then?

Thought not ....

AH  HERE IT IS...

So no news of Amaral's appeal against the libel decision in favour of the McCanns, then?

Thought not ....

was there a libel case in Portugal?

IF there was a discision it would be to most peoples astonishment because I do no recall a libel case taking place.

The only court case I recall was for pursuit of money claimed by Kate n Gerry and in their three children's names, ( the fate of one was/is unknown).

They cliamed the books content hurt them and caused them ain and suffering. The judge did ask if it was worse than their child being  missing and  well, the answer was yes. make of that what you will.

However, the judgement was that some of the contents of the book would have caused some upset for the parents.

On that  note it is worth remembering:
 IF the parents are innocent of hiding their daughters body, they would quite rightly be raging beyond belief.
IF  the parents did make  their daughter disappear, they would be raging to be under suspicion because they tried so hard to hide /cover up their involvement; so either way they were going to be 'affected' by the book.

On another note:  their reputation was in tatters in the eyes of many anyway, once the truth came out about their behaviour.

Now we have to look at the luvvies comments because they seem to be of the opinion that Amarals book content as indeed causing more pain than their daughters disappearance. Amaral proved that they enjoyed a 'celebrity lifestyle' which they would never have had if their daughter had not 'disappeared'... and to claim money on behalf of their 'missing' daughter saying his book affected her was/IS an abomination,  and a measure of their greed and love of money. I would feel Their daughter's plight and their involvment of it ( leaving her alone every night) would have caused  little Maddie much more pain- but the luvvies will no doubt disagree.
   
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 14, 2015, 01:50:06 PM
Not as such but since you fail to understand the case I wanted to respond in terms you could understand my dear fellow.
but by your logic because the word "libel" does not feature in the judgment it wasn't a libel trial, so what was it then?  Damages were awarded for what breach of the law?  Is it against the law to cause embarrassment?  Is there a specific law against causing trauma to another? Trauma as a result of what specific cause or action?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 14, 2015, 02:59:40 PM
Has anyone a copy of the original writ? That will state what the damages are for.
But perm anything you like form this lot:
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/damages
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 14, 2015, 03:04:08 PM

AH  HERE IT IS...

was there a libel case in Portugal?

IF there was a discision it would be to most peoples astonishment because I do no recall a libel case taking place.

The only court case I recall was for pursuit of money claimed by Kate n Gerry and in their three children's names, ( the fate of one was/is unknown).

They cliamed the books content hurt them and caused them ain and suffering. The judge did ask if it was worse than their child being  missing and  well, the answer was yes. make of that what you will.

However, the judgement was that some of the contents of the book would have caused some upset for the parents.

On that  note it is worth remembering:
 IF the parents are innocent of hiding their daughters body, they would quite rightly be raging beyond belief.
IF  the parents did make  their daughter disappear, they would be raging to be under suspicion because they tried so hard to hide /cover up their involvement; so either way they were going to be 'affected' by the book.

On another note:  their reputation was in tatters in the eyes of many anyway, once the truth came out about their behaviour.

Now we have to look at the luvvies comments because they seem to be of the opinion that Amarals book content as indeed causing more pain than their daughters disappearance. Amaral proved that they enjoyed a 'celebrity lifestyle' which they would never have had if their daughter had not 'disappeared'... and to claim money on behalf of their 'missing' daughter saying his book affected her was/IS an abomination,  and a measure of their greed and love of money. I would feel Their daughter's plight and their involvment of it ( leaving her alone every night) would have caused  little Maddie much more pain- but the luvvies will no doubt disagree.
   

What dross is this?

If learned Portuguese judges had found Amaral's book to be true, or at the very least, not proven untrue, they would have invited the McCanns to poke their suffering, and would have found in favour of Amaral.

They didn't, because they found huge swathes of Amaral's book to be proven untrue, and to traduce the reputations of the McCanns.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on November 14, 2015, 03:17:39 PM
What dross is this?

If learned Portuguese judges had found Amaral's book to be true, or at the very least, not proven untrue, they would have invited the McCanns to poke their suffering, and would have found in favour of Amaral.

They didn't, because they found huge swathes of Amaral's book to be proven untrue, and to traduce the reputations of the McCanns.

Not true ferryman.  Only Maddie and the perp(s) if there was(were) one(any) know the truth even now.  A judge cannot be expected to rule on the truthfulness of a book when even the cops are mystified.

Could be the courts are delaying coming to a conclusion in the hope that Britain's finest once and for all solve the mystery.  l wouldn't hold my breath though.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 14, 2015, 04:15:39 PM
Has anyone a copy of the original writ? That will state what the damages are for.
But perm anything you like form this lot:
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/damages


Admitting that I know nothing about Portuguese law, the damages awarded in this case seem more like punitive damages to me. Rather than compensating the McCanns the judge seemed to be punishing Amaral for using his position and failing to uphold the presumption of innocence which that position required of him.

punitive damages, which are awarded not to compensate a plaintiff for injury suffered but to penalize a defendant for particularly egregious, wrongful conduct.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 14, 2015, 05:34:17 PM


Admitting that I know nothing about Portuguese law, the damages awarded in this case seem more like punitive damages to me. Rather than compensating the McCanns the judge seemed to be punishing Amaral for using his position and failing to uphold the presumption of innocence which that position required of him.

punitive damages, which are awarded not to compensate a plaintiff for injury suffered but to penalize a defendant for particularly egregious, wrongful conduct.

I tend to agree. Damages for the children were tossed out by the judge.
Anyway it wasn't about the money:
Speaking today, their Portuguese lawyer Isabel Duarte said: “It was never about the money. It was about stopping awful lies being printed, which hindered the search for Madeleine.”
Then:
"She[the judge] concluded 14 facts had not been proven, ruling Amaral’s statement in his book had not led to Portuguese police halting their search for Madeleine".

I guess all will be revealed in due course, with respect to Sr Amaral's appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 14, 2015, 05:41:08 PM


Admitting that I know nothing about Portuguese law, the damages awarded in this case seem more like punitive damages to me. Rather than compensating the McCanns the judge seemed to be punishing Amaral for using his position and failing to uphold the presumption of innocence which that position required of him.

punitive damages, which are awarded not to compensate a plaintiff for injury suffered but to penalize a defendant for particularly egregious, wrongful conduct.
That being the case what grounds do you think he has for appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 14, 2015, 09:13:00 PM
That being the case what grounds do you think he has for appeal?

No idea, but when the book ban was overturned the Supreme Court said Amaral's right to freedom of expression 'trumped' the McCanns right to a good reputation.

The judge didn't expressly contradict the Supreme Court ruling. She said Amaral broke Judicial secrecy and took advantage of his position by using the contents of the files to write his book. She assumed (probably correctly) that he wrote the book while the files were still secret. Will the appeal court agree? We shall have to wait and see.

The judge's second point was that he was supposed, as a retired senior police officer, to uphold the presumption of innocence. Another point for the appeal court to ponder.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on November 14, 2015, 09:57:40 PM
No idea, but when the book ban was overturned the Supreme Court said Amaral's right to freedom of expression 'trumped' the McCanns right to a good reputation.

The judge didn't expressly contradict the Supreme Court ruling. She said Amaral broke Judicial secrecy and took advantage of his position by using the contents of the files to write his book. She assumed (probably correctly) that he wrote the book while the files were still secret. Will the appeal court agree? We shall have to wait and see.

The judge's second point was that he was supposed, as a retired senior police officer, to uphold the presumption of innocence. Another point for the appeal court to ponder.

I should think the appeal will revolve around the fact that he published after he left.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on November 16, 2015, 09:59:41 PM


Admitting that I know nothing about Portuguese law, the damages awarded in this case seem more like punitive damages to me. Rather than compensating the McCanns the judge seemed to be punishing Amaral for using his position and failing to uphold the presumption of innocence which that position required of him.

punitive damages, which are awarded not to compensate a plaintiff for injury suffered but to penalize a defendant for particularly egregious, wrongful conduct.

That is that way I read it too going by the comments the judge herself related in her very lengthy Judgement.  In particular, I don't think she is too enthused by the idea of police officers and especially senior officers using knowledge gleamed whilst in post for personal gain regardless of the circumstances.  It will be interesting to see if the Appeal Court feels the same.  My own view is that they will uphold the Judgement but reduce the fine and then it's off to the Supreme Court for more of the same.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 16, 2015, 10:04:57 PM
I should think the appeal will revolve around the fact that he published after he left.
It seems the law forbids him from doing this...his previous form seems to show he had little respect for the law
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on November 16, 2015, 10:15:32 PM
I tend to agree. Damages for the children were tossed out by the judge.
Anyway it wasn't about the money:
Speaking today, their Portuguese lawyer Isabel Duarte said: “It was never about the money. It was about stopping awful lies being printed, which hindered the search for Madeleine.”
Then:
"She[the judge] concluded 14 facts had not been proven, ruling Amaral’s statement in his book had not led to Portuguese police halting their search for Madeleine".

I guess all will be revealed in due course, with respect to Sr Amaral's appeal.

The difficulty for both sides is that the truth of what happened to Madeleine McCann is yet undetermined. Several scenarios are still as valid today as they were in 2007, Scotland Yard have failed miserably to take this case forward despite the small fortune spent on it.

If the mystery of her disappearance could be resolved then this civil case could be properly concluded as well.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on November 16, 2015, 10:20:47 PM
The judge's second point was that he was supposed, as a retired senior police officer, to uphold the presumption of innocence. Another point for the appeal court to ponder.

I totally agree.  8((()*/

However, there were goings on in the case which have yet to be explored in a court of law.  I would like to see all the facts surrounding what went on tested in Court.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 16, 2015, 10:41:32 PM
I don't know whether breaking judicial secrecy was a criminal offense, but the McCann's lawyer seemed to think it was. If so, no action has been taken against him. Does that mean that the judge in the 'libel' trial was wrong?

That matter was raised by the McCanns' representative, Isabel Duarte, who is going to file a criminal action against Gonçalo Amaral over breaching the judicial secrecy.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PE-PA.htm
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 16, 2015, 10:44:20 PM
I totally agree.  8((()*/

However, there were goings on in the case which have yet to be explored in a court of law.  I would like to all the facts surrounding what went on tested in Court.

The facts are that amaral abused his position as a police officer.....that's it
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 16, 2015, 10:49:06 PM
I should think the appeal will revolve around the fact that he published after he left.

remember the judge ruled that the McCanns have the right to be presumed innocent....I don't see how amaral can deny them that
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on November 16, 2015, 11:07:36 PM
The facts are that amaral abused his position as a police officer.....that's it

Not quite, he had the right to defend himself against plots.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 16, 2015, 11:09:36 PM
Not quite, he had the right to defend himself against plots.

he had no right to deny the mccanns the presumption of innocence...that's a fact
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 16, 2015, 11:10:15 PM
Not quite, he had the right to defend himself against plots.
what plots?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 16, 2015, 11:24:54 PM
I don't know whether breaking judicial secrecy was a criminal offense, but the McCann's lawyer seemed to think it was. If so, no action has been taken against him. Does that mean that the judge in the 'libel' trial was wrong?

That matter was raised by the McCanns' representative, Isabel Duarte, who is going to file a criminal action against Gonçalo Amaral over breaching the judicial secrecy.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PE-PA.htm

Criminal action (or none) is a separate matter.

The McCanns brought a civil libel action against Amaral and won.

I think Amaral's rantings in the wake of that victory (for the McCanns) that Madeleine disappeared because the McCanns left the children is highly significant.

It suggests he has abandoned theMcCannsdunsomethingtoMadeleineandcovereditup, as does the plea of one of his (sacked) lawyers that proceedings be in camera to protect Madeleine lest Madeleine be alive.

All strongly suggestive that Amaral admitted libel, and has only the size of the award (in favour of the McCanns) to dispute ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 16, 2015, 11:32:36 PM
Criminal action (or none) is a separate matter.

The McCanns brought a civil libel action against Amaral and won.

I think Amaral's rantings in the wake of that victory (for the McCanns) that Madeleine disappeared because the McCanns left the children is highly significant.

It suggests he has abandoned theMcCannsdunsomethingtoMadeleineandcovereditup, as does the plea of one of his (sacked) lawyers that proceedings be in camera to protect Madeleine lest Madeleine be alive.

All strongly suggestive that Amaral admitted libel, and has only the size of the award (in favour of the McCanns) to dispute ...

I agree...it is only the size of the award that is in question...amaral denied the McCanns their human right......enshrined in European law...to be presumed innocent.... the Portuguese justice system then tried to further deprive them further of their rights...their right to silence and non incrimination....and amaral talks about his rights
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 17, 2015, 12:03:34 AM
Gonçalo Amaral is interviewed by Porto Canal - 14.03.2014

Q: Do you regret anything?

“I would do exactly the same [today that I did then], with a small difference: I would not leave the Polícia Judiciária. It could be a problem for the Polícia Judiciária. I did think about it then, shall I leave or not, if I stay with the police I’m a problem for the police, or if I leave, I have all of the other problems.”

“I don’t regret what I did, I did it with conviction, I did it to defend the investigation model, what a criminal investigation is supposed to be. Earlier, you spoke about the politically correct, the politically correct policeman. It is my understanding that criminal investigations cannot be politically correct, because they can’t be concerned with politics. And what happened, and continues to happen, is that we have to be politically correct, subordinate to the English power. That happens, it happened on the 2nd of October [of 2007] at the Lisbon Treaty, there were discussions between José Sócrates, then prime minister, and Gordon Brown, the English prime minister, who told the newspapers that he had asked the Portuguese prime minister about the [Maddie] case. So even before that it was already a political case. And when politics intrude into a criminal investigation, nothing will end well, whether the criminal investigation relates to a homicide, a burglary, a disappearance, or corruption.”

“Going back to the beginning of the question, I don’t have any regrets. I don’t have regrets because although principles and values don’t fill the fridge, I feel rich in another way.”

Q: Were you removed from your post and sidelined until you left the Judiciary Police because you were too close to finding the truth?

“No, no. I left the investigation, I was removed from the investigation because the case had to be dominated politically. Just that. Because I opposed the archiving. I told directors in the Police directly that I did not agree with the archiving. They suggested to me, they told me that there are processes, there are investigations that do not end, that have no result. And that I shouldn’t do a lot. That I should consider the case had ended. I always opposed that. That is why I left the investigation, not because I was close to anything. I don’t see my leaving as being the result of someone fearing anything. The question was that the case is political. Only politics. It’s politics that is driving this matter. When politics enters the investigations, when investigations are politically correct, we get nowhere.”

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic21993.html

THE DISMISSAL: END OF A CAMPAIGN OF DEFAMATION AND INSULTS.

At the Forum, where we attend the ceremony presided over by the government representative for the province of Huelva, I meet some friends and acquintances. It is shortly after 2pm, in the middle of lunch, that I receive the news. The National Director has sent a fax to the Portimão DIC: in it, he stipulates the end of my assignment and requests my return to Faro. Today, October 2nd, is my 48th birthday; this is not the present I wanted, but one that I was expecting. Basically, this brings to an end a campaign of defamation and insults that I have been the target of since the start of the case, the whole thing orchestrated and amplified by the British media. The strategy is simple: call into question the investigation and those who lead it and, at the same time, present Portugal as a Third-World country with a legal system and police force worthy of the Middle Ages.

According to a British correspondent, the Prime Minister personally called Stuart Prior to ask for confirmation of my dismissal. Why would the head of the British government be interested in a lowly Portuguese official? We refuse to believe the rumours going around, according to which the signing of the Treaty of Lisbon was dependent on my dismissal. Rumours, of course, nothing more. I cannot help but think that for the first time in its history, the judiciary police has dismissed a simple official from his post because of external pressure. Those wise words addressed by the Marquis of Pombal to his English ally in the year of Our Lord 1759 seem far removed: “I will never accord to you any more than I owe you.”
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on November 17, 2015, 04:25:39 AM
I agree...it is only the size of the award that is in question...amaral denied the McCanns their human right......enshrined in European law...to be presumed innocent.... the Portuguese justice system then tried to further deprive them further of their rights...their right to silence and non incrimination....and amaral talks about his rights

Do you not think the parents of a missing infant have a moral obligation to assist police regardless of the consequences to themselves or where that cooperation might lead?  Do the rights of a parent supercede that of a missing child?

Just curious to know?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 17, 2015, 07:48:04 AM
Do you not think the parents of a missing infant have a moral obligation to assist police regardless of the consequences to themselves or where that cooperation might lead?  Do the rights of a parent supercede that of a missing child?

Just curious to know?
In a perfect world yes...but if you look at what the PJ did to cipriano ....when you realise that all the PJ wanted to do was pin the crime on the McCanns...then what the mccanns did was absolutely right
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on November 17, 2015, 08:05:00 AM
Do you not think the parents of a missing infant have a moral obligation to assist police regardless of the consequences to themselves or where that cooperation might lead?  Do the rights of a parent supercede that of a missing child?

Just curious to know?


IMO the parents had a moral obligation to their daughter to ensure that everything possible was being done to find her and that the perpetrator was put behind bars - and had no obligation - moral or otherwise - to assist the police to pin the crime on an innocent person thus abandoning Madeleine and leaving the real criminal out there free to do the same again.

In this case the police were trying to pin the crime on the McCanns who knew that they were not the perpetrators - so why on earth would they do anything to assist Amaral and co to allow the real criminal to keep his freedom and bring the search for Madeleine to a premature end.

Therefore IMO by exercising her right - Kate was also exercising Madeleine's right to be searched for by removing the risk of having her case wrongly closed.

I notice that although sceptics are keen to persecute Kate McCann  for exercising her rights over the 48 questions - they rarely mention the questions themselves.    Could it be that like me they wonder how refusing to answer questions like ....Q16.  'What does  ''we let her down' mean'' - could possibly hamper the investigation?

Maybe we should have a thread and discuss the 48 questions individually  - which IMO were designed purely to get answers from Kate which they could then choose to interpret as evidence of a motive - whether they were or not.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 17, 2015, 08:29:12 AM

IMO the parents had a moral obligation to their daughter to ensure that everything possible was being done to find her and that the perpetrator was put behind bars - and had no obligation - moral or otherwise - to assist the police to pin the crime on an innocent person thus abandoning Madeleine and leaving the real criminal out there free to do the same again.

In this case the police were trying to pin the crime on the McCanns who knew that they were not the perpetrators - so why on earth would they do anything to assist Amaral and co to allow the real criminal to keep his freedom and bring the search for Madeleine to a premature end.

Therefore IMO by exercising her right - Kate was also exercising Madeleine's right to be searched for by removing the risk of having her case wrongly closed.

I notice that although sceptics are keen to persecute Kate McCann  for exercising her rights over the 48 questions - they rarely mention the questions themselves.    Could it be that like me they wonder how refusing to answer questions like ....Q16.  'What does  ''we let her down' mean'' - could possibly hamper the investigation?

Maybe we should have a thread and discuss the 48 questions individually  - which IMO were designed purely to get answers from Kate which they could then choose to interpret as evidence of a motive - whether they were or not.

Personally, I would omit 9 letters from that (otherwise) exemplary post: IMO (repeated twice).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 17, 2015, 08:54:11 AM
Personally, I would omit 9 letters from that (otherwise) exemplary post: IMO (repeated twice).

Exemplary post ?

 8)-)))


Well that's a matter of opinion.

As a reminder to both of you.

Crime unknown and certainly no evidence has been found of an abductor, let alone proof.

As to abandoning Madeleine, that is what her parents did with her and her siblings for 5 nights. Socializing came first, not childcare.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 17, 2015, 09:14:26 AM
The title of the thread is, in a sense, correct.

It is the size of damages awarded to the McCanns (in respect of proven and established libel) that Amaral is appealing.

Nothing else.

There's nothing else he can appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 17, 2015, 09:24:39 AM
The title of the thread is, in a sense, correct.

It is the size of damages awarded to the McCanns (in respect of proven and established libel) that Amaral is appealing.

Nothing else.

There's nothing else he can appeal.

I suggest you wait for the appeals court's decision.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 17, 2015, 09:59:38 AM

IMO the parents had a moral obligation to their daughter to ensure that everything possible was being done to find her and that the perpetrator was put behind bars - and had no obligation - moral or otherwise - to assist the police to pin the crime on an innocent person thus abandoning Madeleine and leaving the real criminal out there free to do the same again.

In this case the police were trying to pin the crime on the McCanns who knew that they were not the perpetrators - so why on earth would they do anything to assist Amaral and co to allow the real criminal to keep his freedom and bring the search for Madeleine to a premature end.

Therefore IMO by exercising her right - Kate was also exercising Madeleine's right to be searched for by removing the risk of having her case wrongly closed.

I notice that although sceptics are keen to persecute Kate McCann  for exercising her rights over the 48 questions - they rarely mention the questions themselves.    Could it be that like me they wonder how refusing to answer questions like ....Q16.  'What does  ''we let her down' mean'' - could possibly hamper the investigation?

Maybe we should have a thread and discuss the 48 questions individually  - which IMO were designed purely to get answers from Kate which they could then choose to interpret as evidence of a motive - whether they were or not.

The parents made some judgements immediately.

1. Their daughter had been abducted.

Despite the above conviction, neither of them took responsibility for informing the Ocean Club or the Police. Instead they left that to others and concentrated on telephoning numerous people in the UK to tell them about it.

2. The Portuguese authorities weren't responding correctly.

Again, this was communicated to friends and relatives in the UK. As the parents stayed mostly in their apartment I have no idea how they knew exactly what the Portuguese authorities were or were not doing.

The parents may have been correct about the abduction, but there was no obvious evidence to support that scenario. If the child was abducted it is often the case that they are abandoned nearby shortly afterwards; dead or alive. Given the equal possibility of woke and wandered due to the open patio door the PJ did the correct thing imo. They asked the GNR to concentrate on searching for the child locally. At the same time the Pj began to interview as many people as possible who might have seen something or who might know something.

Had the parents allowed the police to do their job without interference they could have claimed the moral high ground when the investigation failed to pinpoint the crime or the perpetrator. By seriously interfering with the investigation from the beginning they may themselves have prevented the investigation from succeeding.





Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on November 17, 2015, 10:03:52 AM
The title of the thread is, in a sense, correct.

It is the size of damages awarded to the McCanns (in respect of proven and established libel) that Amaral is appealing.

Nothing else.

There's nothing else he can appeal.

I tend to agree with you Ferryman - although while Leonora Cipriano remains incarcerated without even a hint of at least a retrial - then nothing would suprise me when it comes to the workings of the Portuguese legal system.



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on November 17, 2015, 10:31:11 AM
The parents made some judgements immediately.

1. Their daughter had been abducted.

Despite the above conviction, neither of them took responsibility for informing the Ocean Club or the Police. Instead they left that to others and concentrated on telephoning numerous people in the UK to tell them about it.

2. The Portuguese authorities weren't responding correctly.

Again, this was communicated to friends and relatives in the UK. As the parents stayed mostly in their apartment I have no idea how they knew exactly what the Portuguese authorities were or were not doing.

The parents may have been correct about the abduction, but there was no obvious evidence to support that scenario. If the child was abducted it is often the case that they are abandoned nearby shortly afterwards; dead or alive. Given the equal possibility of woke and wandered due to the open patio door the PJ did the correct thing imo. They asked the GNR to concentrate on searching for the child locally. At the same time the Pj began to interview as many people as possible who might have seen something or who might know something.

Had the parents allowed the police to do their job without interference they could have claimed the moral high ground when the investigation failed to pinpoint the crime or the perpetrator. By seriously interfering with the investigation from the beginning they may themselves have prevented the investigation from succeeding.

As far as the McCanns were concerned the open shutters and window could only mean one thing and that is that someone had entered their apartment and taken Madeleine.   They would have been abnormal NOT to have had  that as their first thought.

As far as they knew the police had been called and they were anxiously waiting for them to arrive - and then wondering why they hadn't.     They were not to know that the reception staff decided to wait for instructions from their Manager - I presume in accordance with the Missing children protocol.

The PJ left - saying they would return at 9.00 the following day.  That would never happen in the UK - and would obviously worry them to death.      Their main complaint after that was that they were being told nothing.  To be kept in the dark at such a time would be excrutiating for them.

The McCanns had no power to stop the PJ from doing anything.   To claim that they interfered is simply not true IMO.  They did what they thought was best whilst in a shocked and traumatised state -  and would not know that advertising a missing child was forbidden in Portugal  - as that is the complete opposite of what would happen in the UK.  AS it happens a description of Madeleine - including her eye defect was made public at the request of Amaral on the 5th May.

If the worst thing  imaginable had happened to my family when I was abroad - I would be desperate to talk to my family back home. 

It's so easy to be wise after the event especially when you were not the people who had just been plunged into every parent's worst nightmare and unlike yourself  - did not have the 20/20 vision of hindsight.


   





Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on November 17, 2015, 12:55:39 PM
The title of the thread is, in a sense, correct.

It is the size of damages awarded to the McCanns (in respect of proven and established libel) that Amaral is appealing.

Nothing else.

There's nothing else he can appeal.

In your dreams ferryman. In my opinion the judge was wrong to accept non professional utterings and semantics as to the McCanns suffering.  The entire thing was a circus and proved nothing.  Let's hope the Appeal Court see sense.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 17, 2015, 01:50:17 PM
As far as the McCanns were concerned the open shutters and window could only mean one thing and that is that someone had entered their apartment and taken Madeleine.   They would have been abnormal NOT to have had  that as their first thought.

As far as they knew the police had been called and they were anxiously waiting for them to arrive - and then wondering why they hadn't.     They were not to know that the reception staff decided to wait for instructions from their Manager - I presume in accordance with the Missing children protocol.

The PJ left - saying they would return at 9.00 the following day.  That would never happen in the UK - and would obviously worry them to death.      Their main complaint after that was that they were being told nothing.  To be kept in the dark at such a time would be excrutiating for them.

The McCanns had no power to stop the PJ from doing anything.   To claim that they interfered is simply not true IMO.  They did what they thought was best whilst in a shocked and traumatised state -  and would not know that advertising a missing child was forbidden in Portugal  - as that is the complete opposite of what would happen in the UK.  AS it happens a description of Madeleine - including her eye defect was made public at the request of Amaral on the 5th May.

If the worst thing  imaginable had happened to my family when I was abroad - I would be desperate to talk to my family back home. 

It's so easy to be wise after the event especially when you were not the people who had just been plunged into every parent's worst nightmare and unlike yourself  - did not have the 20/20 vision of hindsight. 

There are two possibilities in this case. Either the parents told the truth or they didn't. For some their story and behaviour was so strange that it wasn't believable. Others spend their time arguing that their story and behaviour wasn't strange at all.

So who is more likely to have got it right? The grandmother couldn't believe it when she was told that her grandchildren had been left  alone in an unlocked apartment every night. Those who wrote supportive articles in the press expressed surprise that children were left in an unlocked apartment that was clearly vulnerable. The authorities looked. listened and had immediate doubts about what they were being told. Experts from the UK mentioned 'staging' and others pointed out that the child was not in the usual age range for abduction and that the parents should be investigated.

It seems to me that denying that problems exist with the story owes more to wishful thinking than to an unbiased assessment of what was said and done.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 17, 2015, 03:09:48 PM
There are two possibilities in this case. Either the parents told the truth or they didn't. For some their story and behaviour was so strange that it wasn't believable. Others spend their time arguing that their story and behaviour wasn't strange at all.

So who is more likely to have got it right? The grandmother couldn't believe it when she was told that her grandchildren had been left  alone in an unlocked apartment every night. Those who wrote supportive articles in the press expressed surprise that children were left in an unlocked apartment that was clearly vulnerable. The authorities looked. listened and had immediate doubts about what they were being told. Experts from the UK mentioned 'staging' and others pointed out that the child was not in the usual age range for abduction and that the parents should be investigated.

It seems to me that denying that problems exist with the story owes more to wishful thinking than to an unbiased assessment of what was said and done.
a totally biased and inaccurate post..

what authorities had immediate doubts about what they were being told
the staging comment was in a documentary that also said an abductor could have been in and out of the apartment within a minute

It is perfectly normal for the parents to be investigated ...as the needhams were...
you forgot to say SY have said the parents are not suspects and that it is their opinion that maddie was taken in a criminal act by a stranger
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 17, 2015, 03:46:42 PM
a totally biased and inaccurate post..

what authorities had immediate doubts about what they were being told
the staging comment was in a documentary that also said an abductor could have been in and out of the apartment within a minute

It is perfectly normal for the parents to be investigated ...as the needhams were...
you forgot to say SY have said the parents are not suspects and that it is their opinion that maddie was taken in a criminal act by a stranger

Talk is irrelevant, proof is what counts. No way would LP let the McCanns get access to their files because they have not cleared themselves. You think not answering questions clears them  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 17, 2015, 03:48:03 PM
Talk is irrelevant, proof is what counts. No way would LP let the McCanns get access to their files because they have not cleared themselves. You think not answering questions clears them  @)(++(*

clears them of what
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 17, 2015, 03:48:36 PM
clears them of what

Involvement in the disappearance.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 17, 2015, 03:50:44 PM
Involvement in the disappearance.

who is accusing them
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 17, 2015, 03:52:24 PM
who is accusing them

Nobody is accusing them but they have not been cleared in an unsolved case. If they asked for all the files they would not get them.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 17, 2015, 04:29:30 PM
Nobody is accusing them but they have not been cleared in an unsolved case. If they asked for all the files they would not get them.

so no one's accusing them...looks like they're in the clear then
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 17, 2015, 07:05:11 PM
so no one's accusing them...looks like they're in the clear then

Let's see what the judges say in the appeal.

This case should never have happened, with the crime remaining unknown.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 17, 2015, 07:28:33 PM
and what of Madeleine's rights dave ?

How did the mccanns protect hers ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 17, 2015, 07:31:50 PM
and what of Madeleine's rights dave ?

How did the mccanns protect hers ?

it shows you don't understand the trial...what has that to do with the trial
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 17, 2015, 07:40:55 PM
it shows you don't understand the trial...what has that to do with the trial

The mccanns weren't on trial dave.

They failed to prove many of their claims.

As has happened before, the court of appeal can overthrow the decision of the previous judge.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 17, 2015, 07:43:23 PM
The mccanns weren't on trial dave.

They failed to prove many of their claims.

As has happened before, the court of appeal can overthrow the decision of the previous judge.

amaral is penniless...destitute  and broken...and as far as I am concerned regarding his other actions too...he deserves it
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 17, 2015, 07:46:04 PM
amaral is penniless...destitute  and broken...and as far as I am concerned regarding his other actions too...he deserves it

That's your opinion.

As far as I am concerned, that's what the mccanns deserve for all they have done.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 17, 2015, 07:49:16 PM
That's your opinion.

As far as I am concerned, that's what the mccanns deserve for all they have done.

then we can agree to disagree
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 17, 2015, 08:06:19 PM
amaral is penniless...destitute  and broken...and as far as I am concerned regarding his other actions too...he deserves it

Both sides maintain it was never about money it was about truth.
On that basis either or both parties will be happy to wind up in an impecunious state provided the truth is revealed to the world.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 17, 2015, 08:10:43 PM
Both sides maintain it was never about money it was about truth.
On that basis either or both parties will be happy to wind up in an impecunious state provided the truth is revealed to the world.

what truth do you expect this trial to reveal...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 17, 2015, 08:16:00 PM
what truth do you expect this trial to reveal...

I have no idea.
I merely said that as both sides proclaim it is not about money but truth, they will be positively ecstatic if they wind up skint as long as the truth is revealed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 17, 2015, 08:17:12 PM
they were suspects

Not when the book was published.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 17, 2015, 08:19:09 PM
I have no idea.
I merely said that as both sides proclaim it is not about money but truth, they will be positively ecstatic if they wind up skint as long as the truth is revealed.

I have never heard the McCanns say the trial is about truth...they have said it is about the search
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2015, 01:12:36 AM
It's remarkable that a few people have exerted so much effort so pointlessly in a desperate attempt to discredit a fund that is totally honest, has only one object, which is clearly stated, and reserves 100% of donors' money exclusively for that object.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2015, 01:41:34 AM
PJGA has only one object. It never creatively interprets that one object to spend money on other things. And it never pays PR companies.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on November 18, 2015, 01:56:30 AM
PJGA has only one object. It never creatively interprets that one object to spend money on other things. And it never pays PR companies.

We have no idea what it pays for, merely what it states on a blogspot run by anonymous people.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2015, 03:53:07 AM
We have no idea what it pays for, merely what it states on a blogspot run by anonymous people.
Sargento doesn't sound very anonymous IMO
And PJGA state clearly exactly what their single object is.
BTW can you even tell me how many "objects" that other fund based in the UK has?
Is it 2 or 3 ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 18, 2015, 07:35:41 AM
Sargento doesn't sound very anonymous IMO
And PJGA state clearly exactly what their single object is.
BTW can you even tell me how many "objects" that other fund based in the UK has?
Is it 2 or 3 ?


what was it you said.....a few exerting so much effort to discredit a fund...absolutely pointless
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on November 18, 2015, 08:12:45 AM
It's remarkable that a few people have exerted so much effort so pointlessly in a desperate attempt to discredit a fund that is totally honest, has only one object, which is clearly stated, and reserves 100% of donors' money exclusively for that object.

How can it be described as 'totally honest' when it allowed a false claim regarding the no. of people who had donated to the fund to remain in full view of the public on it's site - with no attempts made to correct it or explain it.

IMO If the McCanns had done that  - sceptics would be down on them like a ton of bricks to point out how dishonest they were and claiming they were deliberately conning the public into thinking they had far more supporters than they actually did.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on November 18, 2015, 10:46:16 AM
There are no checks and balances on any fund set up to assist Mr Amaral in his endeavours for the simple reason any appeals for financial assistance were not set up to be accountable to the general public.

Madeleine's Fund is fully accountable.

If you think otherwise ... I am sure you can take legal steps to remedy the situation ...
Surprising that those whose annual calendar tends to ignore Christmas and New Year in preference to salivating over the release date of the Madeleine Fund accounts haven't already done so.

Wonder why that may be?

Anyway I look forward with anticipation to the day when the promised transparency of Mr Amaral's fund becomes apparent ... or is it already so transparent some of us can see right through it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2015, 02:01:36 PM

what was it you said.....a few exerting so much effort to discredit a fund...absolutely pointless
On the MFLNSUL official website does it or does it not state that the fund provides financial support to the family?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on November 18, 2015, 03:03:31 PM

Last time we discussed that 'issue' I made a reply to you, you did not respond.

It is still there.

Have a look.

Please accept my humble apologies Stephen.

many posts under the bridge since then. 

Perhaps you would be kind enough to repost it?  or provide a link?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2015, 03:07:07 PM
How can it be described as 'totally honest' when it allowed a false claim regarding the no. of people who had donated to the fund to remain in full view of the public on it's site - with no attempts made to correct it or explain it.

IMO If the McCanns had done that  - sceptics would be down on them like a ton of bricks to point out how dishonest they were and claiming they were deliberately conning the public into thinking they had far more supporters than they actually did.
"allowed a false claim regarding the no, of people who had donated ..."
Let's look at your allegation in detail Benice.
Take a look at any other gfm uk appeal.
Can you show me a single appeal where the  "raised by xx people" figure is correct to your high standards?
Why have you criticised only Leanne's appeal for this feature and not criticised the thousands of others with the same feature?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on November 18, 2015, 05:11:41 PM
"allowed a false claim regarding the no, of people who had donated ..."
Let's look at your allegation in detail Benice.
Take a look at any other gfm uk appeal.
Can you show me a single appeal where the  "raised by xx people" figure is correct to your high standards?
Why have you criticised only Leanne's appeal for this feature and not criticised the thousands of others with the same feature?

If the same thing is happening on other sites then they too are guilty of giving false information to the public,

It's not a matter of standards high or otherwise.   Either something is a true fact or it isn't.   AFAIK it's not common practise on such sites for such a large number of people to keep making multiple donations to the same fund.    In  my experience most people make one donation and that's that. 

The one and only purpose of that 'feature' is to show the public how many people have supported the fund.   I presume that is because people are interested in knowing the level of the support from the public for a particular person.       

 In the case of Amaral's fund that is not what  has happened.     As a result  of the large amount of people constantly making repeat donations the total gave a completely erroneous impression of the level of support IMO.

If the 'feature' could have been changed from 'the number of people'  to 'the number of donations made' -  or failing that - a message stating the true facts about the total being shown on that page, then that would have been fine by me.   But IMO that was not done because the total shows more people donating than actually did.   A screenshot recently posted asking a person to split their one donation into several smaller donations would appear to support my opinion.

My main reason for pointing this out is because  - without a single shadow of a doubt imo  - if the McCanns had allowed the same situation to prevail on Kate's fund raising site -  they would have been accused of being dishonest and making false claims - faster than a speeding bullet. 

AIMHO


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2015, 05:27:11 PM
If the same thing is happening on other sites then they too are guilty of giving false information to the public,

It's not a matter of standards high or otherwise.   Either something is a true fact or it isn't.   AFAIK it's not common practise on such sites for such a large number of people to keep making multiple donations to the same fund.    In  my experience most people make one donation and that's that. 

The one and only purpose of that 'feature' is to show the public how many people have supported the fund.   I presume that is because people are interested in knowing the level of the support from the public for a particular person.       

 In the case of Amaral's fund that is not what  has happened.     As a result  of the large amount of people constantly making repeat donations the total gave a completely erroneous impression of the level of support IMO.

If the 'feature' could have been changed from 'the number of people'  to 'the number of donations made' -  or failing that - a message stating the true facts about the total being shown on that page, then that would have been fine by me.   But IMO that was not done because the total shows more people donating than actually did.   A screenshot recently posted asking a person to split their one donation into several smaller donations would appear to support my opinion.

My main reason for pointing this out is because  - without a single shadow of a doubt imo  - if the McCanns had allowed the same situation to prevail on Kate's fund raising site -  they would have been accused of being dishonest and making false claims - faster than a speeding bullet. 

AIMHO
The "raised by xxx people" counter is completely outside of the control of each appeal's organiser.
Do you realise that you seem to be accusing tens of thousands of honest gfmappeals of dishonesty by your standards? Every gfmappeal has the same counter Benice, please check for yourself. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 18, 2015, 05:30:58 PM
The "raised by xxx people" counter is completely outside of the control of each appeal's organiser.
Do you realise that you seem to be accusing tens of thousands of honest gfmappeals of dishonesty by your standards? Every gfmappeal has the same counter Benice, please check for yourself.

Im fairly sure there have been claims made where the number of donations has been misrepresented as the number of donators
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2015, 05:49:57 PM
Im fairly sure there have been claims made where the number of donations has been misrepresented as the number of donators
Davel if you had done the easy check I suggested you would realise you are making completely unfair allegations against tens of thousands of honest appeal organisers.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 18, 2015, 05:54:20 PM
Davel if you had done the easy check I suggested you would realise you are making completely unfair allegations against tens of thousands of honest appeal organisers.

no I'm not...we have discussed this before and I am well aware of the point you are making
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2015, 05:58:41 PM
The very best allegation that Mr Amaral's attackers could concoct against LB's honest appeal turns out to be an allegation that was made without the attackers doing the few seconds of research which would have saved them posting it and making no-one but themselves smell like elderberries and if people continue to make the allegation I intend to taunt them some more.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2015, 06:08:09 PM
no I'm not...we have discussed this before and I am well aware of the point you are making
IMO criticising how a counter is worded is potkettle coming from those who were happy with with a 50% error when counting up to two.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 18, 2015, 06:09:42 PM
IMO criticising how a counter is worded is potkettle coming from those who were happy with with a 50% error when counting up to two.

I'm not not criticising how it's worded I'm criticising those who have deliberately misrepresented it
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 18, 2015, 06:17:38 PM
The very best allegation that Mr Amaral's attackers could concoct against LB's honest appeal turns out to be an allegation that was made without the attackers doing the few seconds of research which would have saved them posting it and making no-one but themselves smell like elderberries and if people continue to make the allegation I intend to taunt them some more.
What has happened is that Amaral's supporters have exploited the way GFM's page and stats are presented in order to make it appear that Amaral has more support than he actually has.  That is a fact, and you can taunt me all you like, nothing changes that fact. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2015, 06:20:24 PM
I'm not not criticising how it's worded I'm criticising those who have deliberately misrepresented it
So you're claiming someone deliberately misrepresented it. Where? Do you have a link?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 18, 2015, 06:20:49 PM
What has happened is that Amaral's supporters have exploited the way GFM's page and stats are presented in order to make it appear that Amaral has more support than he actually has.  That is a fact, and you can taunt me all you like, nothing changes that fact.

absolutely correct
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2015, 06:23:52 PM
What has happened is that Amaral's supporters have exploited the way GFM's page and stats are presented in order to make it appear that Amaral has more support than he actually has.  That is a fact, and you can taunt me all you like, nothing changes that fact.
Do you have a link to any webpage where Amaral supporters exploit that?
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 18, 2015, 06:28:36 PM
Do you have a link to any webpage where Amaral supporters exploit that?
The GoFundMe page has all the evidence you require.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 18, 2015, 06:34:49 PM
There would not appear to be too many golfers around here!
"It is not how that matters; it is how many".
How many people contributed is irrelevant as is the number of contributions. Sr Amaral got his dosh and submitted his appeal which was allowed; job jobbed.
So neither protagonist having landed a knock out blow in round one we await the result of round two.
Score for round one 10:9.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2015, 06:39:23 PM
The GoFundMe page has all the evidence you require.
Can you post a link to any page where Amaral suppoters exploit the way a counter works?
Seems to me it is only Amaral attackers who exploit it - they can't find anything dodgy at all with PJGA so they resort to criticising a counter which was not written by LB nor by PJGA.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 18, 2015, 06:43:02 PM
There would not appear to be too many golfers around here!
"It is not how that matters; it is how many".
How many people contributed is irrelevant as is the number of contributions. Sr Amaral got his dosh and submitted his appeal which was allowed; job jobbed.
So neither protagonist having landed a knock out blow in round one we await the result of round two.
Score for round one 10:9.
How many is relevant if you're wanting to give the impression that your hard up hero has huge international support.  Of course, we know that in the case of Amaral this is not so, hence the desperation on the part of a few hundred sad individuals to make multiple donations in order to boost their hero's ego and to make themselves feel that they are part of a very important and growing justice movement - haw! haw!. 

Not only that, but the GoFundMe comments facility for donations was used by a number of rabid propagandists to post links to "sceptic" facebook pages, blogs and to disseminate "facts" about the case, but quite who they believed they were reaching out to via this method of muck spreading is unclear as, from what I could see, they were simply preaching to the converted.  All rather pathetic, if you ask me, which you didn't.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 18, 2015, 06:44:52 PM
Can you post a link to any page where Amaral suppoters exploit the way a counter works?
Seems to me it is only Amaral attackers who exploit it - they can't find anything dodgy at all with PJGA so they resort to criticising a counter which was not written by LB nor by PJGA.
I don't know what you're asking for - as I said already - all the evidence to support what I said was there clear as day on the page itself.  I reckon that's the main reason it was pulled as it all looked as hokey as hell.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2015, 06:47:03 PM
(snip) ... Sr Amaral got his dosh and submitted his appeal which was allowed; job jobbed...(snip)
Yes that's the important thing.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2015, 06:57:22 PM
I don't know what you're asking for - as I said already - all the evidence to support what I said was there clear as day on the page itself.  I reckon that's the main reason it was pulled as it all looked as hokey as hell.
Can you quote a single sentence from an Amaral supporter which exploits the way the counter works?
IMO you are not criticising LB or PJGA or Mr Amaral, you seem to be criticising on tens of thousands of appeal organisers all with same feature.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 18, 2015, 06:59:44 PM
How many is relevant if you're wanting to give the impression that your hard up hero has huge international support.  Of course, we know that in the case of Amaral this is not so, hence the desperation on the part of a few hundred sad individuals to make multiple donations in order to boost their hero's ego and to make themselves feel that they are part of a very important and growing justice movement - haw! haw!. 

Not only that, but the GoFundMe comments facility for donations was used by a number of rabid propagandists to post links to "sceptic" facebook pages, blogs and to disseminate "facts" about the case, but quite who they believed they were reaching out to via this method of muck spreading is unclear as, from what I could see, they were simply preaching to the converted.  All rather pathetic, if you ask me, which you didn't.

What was the original objective do you suppose ?
Seemingly it was to raise a shedful of moolah to be able to submit an appeal. Say he needed 50 grand. That can arrive in one contribution of 50k from one person or 50,000 x 1 contributions from 200 people pretending to be 50,000 the net result is the same.
Objective achieved the job's a goodun how information was used may be under the arm in your opinion but it is neither illegal nor against the rules.
It then goes on to round two.
Live with it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 18, 2015, 07:05:55 PM
What was the original objective do you suppose ?
Seemingly it was to raise a shedful of moolah to be able to submit an appeal. Say he needed 50 grand. That can arrive in one contribution of 50k from one person or 50,000 x 1 contributions from 200 people pretending to be 50,000 the net result is the same.
Objective achieved the job's a goodun how information was used may be under the arm in your opinion but it is neither illegal nor against the rules.
It then goes on to round two.
Live with it.
Of course being the suspicious type I very much doubt £50k was actually raised - the way GoFundMe works you could easily recycle money to give the impression that more was raised than it actually was, even at a percentage cost to the overall actual total.  And then of course, there were the fake donors, such as the Sun journo, Jim Gamble, a bunch of Met officers etc.  The whole thing stinks like a 10 day old sardine, but of course none of this is of any interest whatsoever to the likes of you, is it...? Of course not!
Meantime, I'm struggling to live with it...but it's hard. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 18, 2015, 07:07:53 PM
Can you quote a single sentence from an Amaral supporter which exploits the way the counter works?
IMO you are not criticising LB or PJGA or Mr Amaral, you seem to be criticising on tens of thousands of appeal organisers all with same feature.
The fact that the same individuals clearly donated over and over again, week in week out in small amounts exploits the way the page works, to give the impression of more support than there actually is.  If you disagree, then your prerogative, your entitled to your opinion, but to a sceptic like me, it stinks.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 18, 2015, 07:08:52 PM
Off topic old son the thread is about Sr Amarals confirmation he will appeal.
Start a thread about Sr Amaral's support perceived or otherwise.
I think the customary response to such orders is - "who made you a Mod"? 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2015, 07:13:03 PM
Here's a question - does Amaral enjoy massive support for his appeal both here and in his own country?  If so, please provide the evidence.
Some portuguese people have donated money to pay Mr Amarals legal costs in this libel case.

Has any member of the GBP has knowingly donated a halfpenny to pay the other side's legal costs of launching the case or of the current appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 18, 2015, 07:18:02 PM
Can you post a link to any page where Amaral suppoters exploit the way a counter works?
Seems to me it is only Amaral attackers who exploit it - they can't find anything dodgy at all with PJGA so they resort to criticising a counter which was not written by LB nor by PJGA.

The worst thing about the gofundeme page for me was the amount of lies in the posts. What we are all interested in I would have thought is the truth
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2015, 07:25:37 PM
The fact that the same individuals clearly donated over and over again, week in week out in small amounts exploits the way the page works, to give the impression of more support than there actually is.  If you disagree, then your prerogative, your entitled to your opinion, but to a sceptic like me, it stinks.
OK let's do a repeat donation frequency comparision between the GFMPJGA appeal and the MFLNSUL appeal oh sorry cancel that, the donation history and amounts there are so highly transparent I can't see them.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 18, 2015, 07:27:46 PM
The worst thing about the gofundeme page for me was the amount of lies in the posts. What we are all interested in I would have thought is the truth

No.

You and your fellows interest, is simply defending the mccanns.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2015, 07:38:00 PM
The worst thing about the gofundeme page for me was the amount of lies in the posts. What we are all interested in I would have thought is the truth
Agreed and a few of of the most unpleasant comments got me briefly wondering could they be by some anti-Amaral maniper posing as supporters to devalue the whole appeal in the press's eyes. Unlikely but if so the irony would be they had to pay at least a fiver a time and their money is being put to good use.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 18, 2015, 07:51:12 PM
Agreed and a few of of the most unpleasant comments got me briefly wondering could they be by some anti-Amaral maniper posing as supporters to devalue the whole appeal in the press's eyes. Unlikely but if so the irony would be they had to pay at least a fiver a time and their money is being put to good use.

you should remember that Baulch would have been able to remove any post she didn't like.......I think they were all genuine amaral supporters
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 18, 2015, 08:43:39 PM
(https://jacalynmcnamara.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/much-ado.jpg)

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on November 18, 2015, 11:14:34 PM
Of course being the suspicious type I very much doubt £50k was actually raised - the way GoFundMe works you could easily recycle money to give the impression that more was raised than it actually was, even at a percentage cost to the overall actual total.  And then of course, there were the fake donors, such as the Sun journo, Jim Gamble, a bunch of Met officers etc.  The whole thing stinks like a 10 day old sardine, but of course none of this is of any interest whatsoever to the likes of you, is it...? Of course not!
Meantime, I'm struggling to live with it...but it's hard. @)(++(*

Straw clutching 101.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on November 18, 2015, 11:15:57 PM
OK let's do a repeat donation frequency comparision between the GFMPJGA appeal and the MFLNSUL appeal oh sorry cancel that, the donation history and amounts there are so highly transparent I can't see them.

Very true.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 18, 2015, 11:23:07 PM
I think the customary response to such orders is - "who made you a Mod"?

I suppose the customary answer to that could be "Roger Daltrey".
But me nah never owned a Lambretta with a squirrel's tail flying off a whip aerial at the back; more sort of a hard rock heavy metal greaser me.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 18, 2015, 11:49:07 PM
Of course being the suspicious type I very much doubt £50k was actually raised - the way GoFundMe works you could easily recycle money to give the impression that more was raised than it actually was, even at a percentage cost to the overall actual total.  And then of course, there were the fake donors, such as the Sun journo, Jim Gamble, a bunch of Met officers etc.  The whole thing stinks like a 10 day old sardine, but of course none of this is of any interest whatsoever to the likes of you, is it...? Of course not!
Meantime, I'm struggling to live with it...but it's hard. @)(++(*

You may well be right but as I posted before:

"Sr Amaral got his dosh and submitted his appeal which was allowed; job jobbed.
So neither protagonist having landed a knock out blow in round one we await the result of round two.
Score for round one 10:9".


Why would the emboldened bit be of interest to me? There have been weird folk around who have done weird things since long before the narrow confines of "The McCann Box" were arbitrarily created. No doubt it will continue long after the "McCann Box" is closed. If I allowed myself to break out in a muck sweat about all of it I would have crawled in a hole and pulled it in after me long before I heard the name McCann, excluding Les McCann of course.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 19, 2015, 01:31:45 AM
Of course being the suspicious type I very much doubt £50k was actually raised - the way GoFundMe works you could easily recycle money to give the impression that more was raised than it actually was, even at a percentage cost to the overall actual total.  (snip)
Pure wishful invention by you unless you have any evidence. And what would be the point? PJGA are not there to do PR. The aim of the GFM appeal was to raise enough money to ensure Mr Amaral could appeal. And it worked perfectly because it meant he could afford a lawyer and the appeal was filed and very soon the result of the appeal will be announced.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 08:09:20 AM
Pure wishful invention by you unless you have any evidence. And what would be the point? PJGA are not there to do PR. The aim of the GFM appeal was to raise enough money to ensure Mr Amaral could appeal. And it worked perfectly because it meant he could afford a lawyer and the appeal was filed and very soon the result of the appeal will be announced.

You say very soon!

Do you have an exact date?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 19, 2015, 08:11:07 AM
pegasus, Slarti and possibly Alice seem to be in a state of denial regarding the purpose of this Fund.  Of secondary importance was raising money for the hard-up hero, clearly its primary objective was as a point scoring exercise and propaganda vehicle.  If you can't see that, then that's because you choose not to.  Your choice.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 19, 2015, 08:13:17 AM
I suppose the customary answer to that could be "Roger Daltrey".
But me nah never owned a Lambretta with a squirrel's tail flying off a whip aerial at the back; more sort of a hard rock heavy metal greaser me.
to paraphrase John Lennon, you're more of a mocker then, right? 8)--))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on November 19, 2015, 08:16:44 AM
pegasus, Slarti and possibly Alice seem to be in a state of denial regarding the purpose of this Fund.  Of secondary importance was raising money for the hard-up hero, clearly its primary objective was as a point scoring exercise and propaganda vehicle.  If you can't see that, then that's because you choose not to.  Your choice.

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 19, 2015, 08:20:42 AM
pegasus, Slarti and possibly Alice seem to be in a state of denial regarding the purpose of this Fund.  Of secondary importance was raising money for the hard-up hero, clearly its primary objective was as a point scoring exercise and propaganda vehicle.  If you can't see that, then that's because you choose not to.  Your choice.

absolutely true...Pegasus has admitted that the posts supporting the donations were often based on lies and in some cases extreme
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 19, 2015, 08:21:08 AM
@)(++(*

 @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 19, 2015, 08:42:47 AM
It seems to me that people donated to Amaral's fund for various reasons. Some believed his thesis, others just disbelieved the McCanns, some were annoyed at being called trolls by the media, some were disgusted that the media didn't report honestly (they all printed Kate McCann's quote saying it was about the search and the children, did any report that none of the money awarded was for those items?). Some people donated because they saw it as unfair that Amaral didn't have the money needed for his defense.

Whatever the reasons, enough was raised for the appeal to be filed, which was the point of the exercise. One clear objective achieved.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 09:00:11 AM
I repeat my question: do we know when Amaral's appeal will be heard?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 19, 2015, 09:09:18 AM
It seems to me that people donated to Amaral's fund for various reasons. Some believed his thesis, others just disbelieved the McCanns, some were annoyed at being called trolls by the media, some were disgusted that the media didn't report honestly (they all printed Kate McCann's quote saying it was about the search and the children, did any report that none of the money awarded was for those items?). Some people donated because they saw it as unfair that Amaral didn't have the money needed for his defense.

Whatever the reasons, enough was raised for the appeal to be filed, which was the point of the exercise. One clear objective achieved.
his thesis was based on lies
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 19, 2015, 09:15:33 AM
@)(++(*
Apparently it is against forum rules to make posts whose sole objective is to goad.  Your last two posts to me have been rude / goading.  As you are a mod and should be setting an example to the rest of us, I trust you will reflect upon the error of your ways, and delete your two last posts to me.  Yours in anticipation, Alfred.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 19, 2015, 09:16:59 AM
absolutely true...Pegasus has admitted that the posts supporting the donations were often based on lies and in some cases extreme
Pegasus and many others were also extremely put out when the media seemed to ignore this fund - a clear indication that it was as much about propaganda and PR spin as anything else.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 19, 2015, 09:39:07 AM
Pegasus and many others were also extremely put out when the media seemed to ignore this fund - a clear indication that it was as much about propaganda and PR spin as anything else.

Hypocrite.

What have the mccanns and their cohorts being doing for the last 8 plus years
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 09:39:54 AM
his thesis was based on lies

It was.

Amaral didn't even know (or, more likely, chose to try to deceive people into believing otherwise!) that the enquiry was a murder enquiry.

That the enquiry was a murder enquiry is explicit from Mark Harrison's reports.

It is also explicit from Mark Harrison's reports that he was instructed by the PJ to investigate that Madeleine had been murdered.

Yet, according to Amaral, Harrison switched the enquiry into one for a little girl assumed dead.

And according to Amaral, no one talked about murder.

All lies.

And all reasons why Amaral will lose his appeal (if one has been lodged).

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 09:43:43 AM
Hypocrite.

What have the mccanns and their cohorts being doing for the last 8 plus years

Searching for Madeleine.

And I hope the board abuse will be punished.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 19, 2015, 09:44:04 AM
It was.

Amaral didn't even know (or, more likely, chose to try to deceive people into believing otherwise!) that the enquiry was a murder enquiry.

That the enquiry was a murder enquiry is explicit from Mark Harrison's reports.

It is also explicit from Mark Harrison's reports that he was instructed by the PJ to investigate that Madeleine had been murdered.

Yet, according to Amaral, Harrison switched the enquiry into one for a little girl assumed dead.

And according to Amaral, no one talked about murder.

All lies.

And all reasons why Amaral will lose his appeal (if one has been lodged).

This is why I believe the appeal is against the sentence....the amount of damages. That might also explain why the funding appeal has been wound down.....if the second court agrees with the damages I can't see amaral can take the case any further....the ECHR would not rule on the level of damages
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 19, 2015, 09:48:08 AM
Searching for Madeleine.

And I hope the board abuse will be punished.

So you've been searching have you ferryman ?

On a keyboard, by chance ?

and don't think for one moment, people can't see through the propaganda on the mccanns behalf.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 19, 2015, 09:49:10 AM
It was.

Amaral didn't even know (or, more likely, chose to try to deceive people into believing otherwise!) that the enquiry was a murder enquiry.

That the enquiry was a murder enquiry is explicit from Mark Harrison's reports.

It is also explicit from Mark Harrison's reports that he was instructed by the PJ to investigate that Madeleine had been murdered.

Yet, according to Amaral, Harrison switched the enquiry into one for a little girl assumed dead.

And according to Amaral, no one talked about murder.

All lies.

And all reasons why Amaral will lose his appeal (if one has been lodged).

Dear oh dear. &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 09:58:40 AM
Dear oh dear. &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+

This report considers solely the possibility that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body is concealed within the areas previously searched by Police in Zone 1 around Praia Da Luz. Other scenarios or possibilities may on request be considered and be subject of a further report.

(Mark Harrison)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 19, 2015, 10:04:17 AM
This report considers solely the possibility that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body is concealed within the areas previously searched by Police in Zone 1 around Praia Da Luz. Other scenarios or possibilities may on request be considered and be subject of a further report.

(Mark Harrison)

May I remind you ferryman, the crime remains unknown, just as it was then.

No matter how you try to perpeyuate THE STORY OF ABDUCTION,k it remains unknown, and the original team COULD NOT FIND EVIDENCE OF ABDUCTION.

No change on that either.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 10:15:30 AM
May I remind you ferryman, the crime remains unknown, just as it was then.

No matter how you try to perpeyuate THE STORY OF ABDUCTION,k it remains unknown, and the original team COULD NOT FIND EVIDENCE OF ABDUCTION.

No change on that either.

Which part of the fact that Mark Harrison was instructed by the PJ to investigate that Madeleine had been murdered are you erroneously quibbling about, and why?

Do you dispute the fact that Harrison, himself, reached no definitive conclusion about what happened to Madeleine?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 19, 2015, 10:17:27 AM
Which part of the fact that Mark Harrison was instructed by the PJ to investigate that Madeleine had been murdered are you erroneously quibbling about, and why?

Do you dispute the fact that Harrison, himself, reached no definitive conclusion about what happened to Madeleine?

What part do you not understand ferryman ?

The crime remains 'unknown'.


Meanwhile, what searching have you done for Madeleine ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 19, 2015, 10:20:30 AM
Which part of the fact that Mark Harrison was instructed by the PJ to investigate that Madeleine had been murdered are you erroneously quibbling about, and why?

Do you dispute the fact that Harrison, himself, reached no definitive conclusion about what happened to Madeleine?

So they were searching on the beach for a murdered child. So what? She could have been murdered.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 10:26:08 AM
So they were searching on the beach for a murdered child. So what? She could have been murdered.

The so what is that Amaral lied that no one talked out about murder

And (more seriously) he lied that Harrison turned the investigation into one for a little girl assumed dead.

Harrison did no such thing (on either count).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 19, 2015, 10:32:13 AM
The so what is that Amaral lied that no one talked out about murder

And (more seriously) he lied that Harrison turned the investigation into one for a little girl assumed dead.

Harrison did no such thing (on either count).

This thread is about Amaral's appeal.

and all you want to do is attack him for patently obvious reasons.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 10:42:09 AM
This thread is about Amaral's appeal.

and all you want to do is attack him for patently obvious reasons.

And your problem with my explanation of why Amaral is likely to lose his appeal is, what?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Moderator on November 19, 2015, 11:34:05 AM
Sensible posts please.

MM
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 19, 2015, 11:34:58 AM
And your problem with my explanation of why Amaral is likely to lose his appeal is, what?

Leave that to the court.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 19, 2015, 11:41:55 AM
Leave that to the court.

then leave the McCanns to the court
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 19, 2015, 11:43:12 AM
And your problem with my explanation of why Amaral is likely to lose his appeal is, what?

Your explanation has absolutely nothing to do with the judge's ruling, so nothing of what you referred to will be considered by the appeal court.

They will consider the ruling which said that Amaral broke judicial secrecy and that he ignored the presumption of innocence which, as an ex policeman, he was supposed to uphold.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 19, 2015, 11:47:15 AM
The so what is that Amaral lied that no one talked out about murder

And (more seriously) he lied that Harrison turned the investigation into one for a little girl assumed dead.

Harrison did no such thing (on either count).

A girl vanishes and after 3 months there's still no trace. What do you think the police think happened to her? Harrison's report was written before the dogs were deployed - 23/07/2007.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 19, 2015, 11:48:37 AM
Your explanation has absolutely nothing to do with the judge's ruling, so nothing of what you referred to will be considered by the appeal court.

They will consider the ruling which said that Amaral broke judicial secrecy and that he ignored the presumption of innocence which, as an ex policeman, he was supposed to uphold.

you are presuming he has appealed the judgement and not the sentence...which we do not know...but he does talk of appealing the sentence in his statement
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 19, 2015, 12:22:12 PM
A girl vanishes and after 3 months there's still no trace. What do you think the police think happened to her? Harrison's report was written before the dogs were deployed - 23/07/2007.

Recommended by;

"It was British police who said they must consider not only abduction but homicide as well."

The NPIA provided a checklist of what should be done, advising the Portuguese police to include the McCanns in their inquiry and take new forensics at their holiday apartment in Praia da Luz.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id308.html

Requested by;

The reconnaissance undertaken and this report has been completed at the direct request and benefit of Guillhemino Encamacao the Algarve Regional Director of the Portuguese Judicial Police
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 19, 2015, 12:30:27 PM
Recommended by;

"It was British police who said they must consider not only abduction but homicide as well."

The NPIA provided a checklist of what should be done, advising the Portuguese police to include the McCanns in their inquiry and take new forensics at their holiday apartment in Praia da Luz.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id308.html

Requested by;

The reconnaissance undertaken and this report has been completed at the direct request and benefit of Guillhemino Encamacao the Algarve Regional Director of the Portuguese Judicial Police
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

It is interesting the UK police recommended looking at abduction and homicide.....no mention of an accident and cover up
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on November 19, 2015, 12:51:27 PM
Apparently it is against forum rules to make posts whose sole objective is to goad.  Your last two posts to me have been rude / goading.  As you are a mod and should be setting an example to the rest of us, I trust you will reflect upon the error of your ways, and delete your two last posts to me.  Yours in anticipation, Alfred.

Since you are making wild claims with no evidence, I think my response was fairly mild.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on November 19, 2015, 12:52:02 PM
Slipping Off topic, Guys?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 19, 2015, 01:11:21 PM
It is interesting the UK police recommended looking at abduction and homicide.....no mention of an accident and cover up

Get real. You don't cover up accidents but caught perps usually say that it was.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 01:15:46 PM
A girl vanishes and after 3 months there's still no trace. What do you think the police think happened to her? Harrison's report was written before the dogs were deployed - 23/07/2007.

And there was me paying you the (comparative) compliment of assuming you'd read the files (and Amaral's book) ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 01:41:24 PM
Your explanation has absolutely nothing to do with the judge's ruling, so nothing of what you referred to will be considered by the appeal court.

They will consider the ruling which said that Amaral broke judicial secrecy and that he ignored the presumption of innocence which, as an ex policeman, he was supposed to uphold.

So you think that the outright untruths (at most charitable); lies (at probably more accurate) Amaral has told that lower the reputation of the McCanns are irrelevant?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 19, 2015, 01:47:24 PM
So you think that the outright untruths (at most charitable); lies (at probably more accurate) Amaral has told that lower the reputation of the McCanns are irrelevant?

The truth or otherwise of Amaral's thesis was not considered in the judge's ruling, so it is irrelevant as you have been told many times.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 01:54:54 PM
The truth or otherwise of Amaral's thesis was not considered in the judge's ruling, so it is irrelevant as you have been told many times.

Amaral's lies (at most damning)/inaccuracies (at most charitable) that traduce reputation are deeply relevant to a libel trial.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on November 19, 2015, 02:11:12 PM
Best to wait and see what the appeal judge decides, I think.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 19, 2015, 02:21:04 PM
Best to wait and see what the appeal judge decides, I think.

and wait and see what Grange says rather than speculating about the parents role
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 19, 2015, 02:32:54 PM
Amaral's lies (at most damning)/inaccuracies (at most charitable) that traduce reputation are deeply relevant to a libel trial.

Crime undetermined ferryman.

Remember that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on November 19, 2015, 02:35:25 PM
and wait and see what Grange says rather than speculating about the parents role

Indeed, its all a question of wait and see.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 19, 2015, 02:39:03 PM
Amaral's lies (at most damning)/inaccuracies (at most charitable) that traduce reputation are deeply relevant to a libel trial.

Please provide a cite showing what the judge said about Amaral's 'lies'.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 19, 2015, 02:44:45 PM
And there was me paying you the (comparative) compliment of assuming you'd read the files (and Amaral's book) ...

They have to cover all possibilities but you can't accuse anybody of murder without evidence and Amaral has never done so. When has Amaral said it was murder? Of course they investigate the possibility.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 02:46:39 PM
Please provide a cite showing what the judge said about Amaral's 'lies'.

Probably in written submissions.

Instead I will cite an example of (one of) Amaral's lies:

After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz.

(More in an edit) ...

Penultimate sentence and paragraph of Harrison's final report.

I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz. (See my second report entitled “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine”).

Spot the lie.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 02:55:28 PM
They have to cover all possibilities but you can't accuse anybody of murder without evidence and Amaral has never done so. When has Amaral said it was murder? Of course they investigate the possibility.

Amaral said (in an interview to the Spanish El Mundo magazine) no one talked about murder.

Amaral either lied or was incompetent ...

Quote
Q - What do you think could have happened that night?

A - Both the British and Portuguese police, and even the prosecutor, who has already changed his mind, thought the same.. I We talked about death by others, not murder In the room, blood and cadaver odour was found just below a window where a sofa was. The father was talking to a friend just outside that window for a while. The girl was not a heavy sleeper, that's what the parents said. Perhaps she heard her father and climbed to the sofa below the window. But the parents, for the girl not to go out, moved it away from the wall. Madeleine could have fallen.

(Goncalo Amaral, El Mundo)

So which is it? 

Was Amaral incompetent?

Or did he lie?

Fourth article down:

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id165.html
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 19, 2015, 03:22:34 PM
Amaral said (in an interview to the Spanish El Mundo magazine) no one talked about murder.

Amaral either lied or was incompetent ...

(Goncalo Amaral, El Mundo)

So which is it? 

Was Amaral incompetent?

Or did he lie?

Fourth article down:

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id165.html

Crime undetermined ferryman.

Your fixation with Amaral knows no bounds. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 19, 2015, 03:54:43 PM
pegasus, Slarti and possibly Alice seem to be in a state of denial regarding the purpose of this Fund.  Of secondary importance was raising money for the hard-up hero, clearly its primary objective was as a point scoring exercise and propaganda vehicle. If you can't see that, then that's because you choose not to.  Your choice.

You may be right, however I have given it no more thought than: "The donations accompanied by funny names and purporting to be possibly from someone else etc are doubtless from the type of person who writes to the local rag or national press and signs themselves R.Sole, Alf Huckett or Don Kiddick". I treat them with the same sort of suspicion. The first suspicion has to be, did they mean it as some subversive plot or did they do it just to see if it would get through? In this instance five euros is five euros whatever the motive. As for who has most support out of Drs McCann and Sr Amaral I don't care, can't see its relevance to a case at law, can't see a way of measuring it accurately and generally don't give a rat's ass about a popularity poll faked or otherwise between the two protagonists.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 19, 2015, 05:23:42 PM
You may be right, however I have given it no more thought than: "The donations accompanied by funny names and purporting to be possibly from someone else etc are doubtless from the type of person who writes to the local rag or national press and signs themselves R.Sole, Alf Huckett or Don Kiddick". I treat them with the same sort of suspicion. The first suspicion has to be, did they mean it as some subversive plot or did they do it just to see if it would get through? In this instance five euros is five euros whatever the motive. As for who has most support out of Drs McCann and Sr Amaral I don't care, can't see its relevance to a case at law, can't see a way of measuring it accurately and generally don't give a rat's ass about a popularity poll faked or otherwise between the two protagonists.
Fairy Snuff.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 19, 2015, 06:09:54 PM
Amaral said (in an interview to the Spanish El Mundo magazine) no one talked about murder.

Amaral either lied or was incompetent ...

(Goncalo Amaral, El Mundo)

So which is it? 

Was Amaral incompetent?

Or did he lie?

Fourth article down:

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id165.html

GA: I do not believe that the parents killed her.

Q - So, what are we talking about?

A - About an accident. The child could have fallen from a sofa, could have had an accident with Calpol (a sleeping pill (sic: solution)). We never had access to the girl's medical history, so we don't know whether she was healthy or not. We can only speculate. There are many very strange details.
 
Q - What do you think could have happened that night?

A - Both the British and Portuguese police, and even the prosecutor, who has already changed his mind, thought the same. We talked about death by others, not murder. In the room, blood and cadaver odour was found just below a window where a sofa was. The father was talking to a friend just outside that window for a while. The girl was not a heavy sleeper, that's what the parents said. Perhaps she heard her father and climbed to the sofa below the window. But the parents, for the girl not to go out, moved it away from the wall. Madeleine could have fallen.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 06:34:05 PM
GA: I do not believe that the parents killed her.

Q - So, what are we talking about?

A - About an accident. The child could have fallen from a sofa, could have had an accident with Calpol (a sleeping pill (sic: solution)). We never had access to the girl's medical history, so we don't know whether she was healthy or not. We can only speculate. There are many very strange details.
 
Q - What do you think could have happened that night?

A - Both the British and Portuguese police, and even the prosecutor, who has already changed his mind, thought the same. We talked about death by others, not murder. In the room, blood and cadaver odour was found just below a window where a sofa was. The father was talking to a friend just outside that window for a while. The girl was not a heavy sleeper, that's what the parents said. Perhaps she heard her father and climbed to the sofa below the window. But the parents, for the girl not to go out, moved it away from the wall. Madeleine could have fallen.

Mark Harrison was tasked to investigate that Madeleine had been murdered  ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 19, 2015, 06:55:47 PM
Probably in written submissions.

Instead I will cite an example of (one of) Amaral's lies:

After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz.

(More in an edit) ...

Penultimate sentence and paragraph of Harrison's final report.

I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz. (See my second report entitled “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine”).

Spot the lie.

The judge's comments i asked for. If you are arguing that the judge's ruling was about Amaral's lies you should be able to provide details of what she said.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 07:01:46 PM
The judge's comments i asked for. If you are arguing that the judge's ruling was about Amaral's lies you should be able to provide details of what she said.

We don't see written submissions on line.

We do know that Santos made a plea that proceedings be in camera to protect Madeleine lest Madeleine be alive.

Seeing as he was Amaral's lawyer, and seeing as Amaral alleges that Kate and Gerry caused her death and covered up the alleged 'fact' of her death, that is highly significant.

As is the fact that Harrison was tasked, by the PJ, to investigate that Madeleine had been 'murdered', contrary to the claim of Amaral that Harrison (himself) turned the investigation into one for a little girl assumed dead.

I'm unclear why you think, in a libel trial, that Amaral's lies don't matter?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 19, 2015, 07:47:30 PM
We don't see written submissions on line.

We do know that Santos made a plea that proceedings be in camera to protect Madeleine lest Madeleine be alive.

Seeing as he was Amaral's lawyer, and seeing as Amaral alleges that Kate and Gerry caused her death and covered up the alleged 'fact' of her death, that is highly significant.

As is the fact that Harrison was tasked, by the PJ, to investigate that Madeleine had been 'murdered', contrary to the claim of Amaral that Harrison (himself) turned the investigation into one for a little girl assumed dead.

I'm unclear why you think, in a libel trial, that Amaral's lies don't matter?

I can only comment on what the judge said. Your opinion means nothing. We're all entitled to an opinion, but the judge decided he wasn't entitled to disseminate his. truth or otherwise didn't come into it. Wisely, because no-one knows what happened to the child.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 07:49:09 PM
I can only comment on what the judge said. Your opinion means nothing. We're all entitled to an opinion, but the judge decided he wasn't entitled to disseminate his. truth or otherwise didn't come into it. Wisely, because no-one knows what happened to the child.

The judge commented that the McCanns are innocent ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 19, 2015, 07:55:52 PM
The judge commented that the McCanns are innocent ...

Too simplistic and misrepresenting what occurred

IMO what the judge probably meant was more " knowing they are innocent".....insert rest of the sentence/question asked

In any case she would be in no position to state their innocence as a given when no one in the judicio/pj capacity had hitherto....., which makes my interpretation probably right
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 19, 2015, 07:57:13 PM
Mark Harrison was tasked to investigate that Madeleine had been murdered  ....

Yes that could be by a predator. Ricardo Paiva revealed in court who first thought it could be and he didn't say Goncalo Amaral.

"We welcome Mark Harrison, a specialist in murder, and the search for missing persons and victims of natural disasters. National advisor to the British police, he is well known for his exceptional professional experience. He has already participated in dozens of international criminal investigations.

His work consists of defining new strategies for research. He gets to work immediately, supported by the Portuguese PJ and the investigators from Leicester and Scotland Yard." (TOTL)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 08:04:12 PM
Too simplistic and misrepresenting what occurred

IMO what the judge probably meant was more " knowing they are innocent".....insert rest of the sentence/question asked

In any case she would be in no position to state their innocence as a given when no one in the judicio/pj capacity had hitherto....., which makes my interpretation probably right

Re-read the archiving dispatch ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 19, 2015, 08:12:47 PM
Re-read the archiving dispatch ....

I have read it a few times, no where does it say the parents are innocent, as many state, as an absolute fact that can be repeated by police, judges, media, ad infinitum
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 08:31:27 PM
I have read it a few times, no where does it say the parents are innocent, as many state, as an absolute fact that can be repeated by police, judges, media, ad infinitum

In both the Napoleonic code and (our own) adversarial system, absence of intent means no crime can be committed
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 19, 2015, 08:56:27 PM
In both the Napoleonic code and (our own) adversarial system, absence of intent means no crime can be committed

Pretty irrelevant least because all  they have been suspected of is occultation of a body, where there cannot not be intent...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 08:59:23 PM
Pretty irrelevant least because all  they have been suspected of is occultation of a body, where there cannot not be intent...

How do you hide a body without intent?

And since the McCanns were accused of murder ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 19, 2015, 09:06:14 PM
How do you hide a body without intent?

And since the McCanns were accused of murder ....

- That is what I said, you cant not have intent and
- No one accused them of murder... Please dont repeat your Harrison thing and your personal interpretation then pass it off as fact,  heard it all before
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 09:23:30 PM
- That is what I said, you cant not have intent and
- No one accused them of murder... Please dont repeat your Harrison thing and your personal interpretation then pass it off as fact,  heard it all before

My Harrison thing?

I am repeating what's written in the files.

Read Harrison's terms of reference.

He was handed a brief, by the PJ, to investigate that Madeleine had been murdered and did so.

Harrison's own, personal, conclusion was inconclusive.  He formed no firm opinion about what might have happened to Madeleine.

He also stressed that no inference could be drawn from the reactions of the dogs.

It's all in the files ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 19, 2015, 09:26:50 PM
TOTL

Mark Harrison reads up on the statements and interviews from the principal witnesses – including, of course, those of the parents and friends -, all the analyses, simulations, hypotheses and cross-checking already carried out. He carries out a reconnaissance on the ground, by helicopter and then on foot. He paces the streets and the access roads to Vila da Luz and compares them to the diagrams created in the course of the investigation. Nothing is left to chance: measurement and timing of possible routes between buildings, apartments and restaurants; analyses, with the help of the best specialists, of weather, geological and maritime factors in relation to the investigation; consultation with the best forensic anthropologist in the country, who indicates for us what would be the actual state of the body in the hypothesis of death occurring on May 3rd; study of the region’s natural carrion predators. All the research already conducted by hundreds of people – GNR, civil defence, firemen and other volunteers – is re-examined in detail and re-analysed.

After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz. He praises the quality of the work carried out by the Portuguese authorities in trying to find the little girl alive. According to him, the time has come to redirect the searches in order to find, this time, a body hidden in the surrounding area.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 19, 2015, 09:34:23 PM
The judge commented that the McCanns are innocent ...

That's not what we're talking about. Please provide details of the judge's comments on Amaral's 'lies'.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 09:38:07 PM
TOTL

Mark Harrison reads up on the statements and interviews from the principal witnesses – including, of course, those of the parents and friends -, all the analyses, simulations, hypotheses and cross-checking already carried out. He carries out a reconnaissance on the ground, by helicopter and then on foot. He paces the streets and the access roads to Vila da Luz and compares them to the diagrams created in the course of the investigation. Nothing is left to chance: measurement and timing of possible routes between buildings, apartments and restaurants; analyses, with the help of the best specialists, of weather, geological and maritime factors in relation to the investigation; consultation with the best forensic anthropologist in the country, who indicates for us what would be the actual state of the body in the hypothesis of death occurring on May 3rd; study of the region’s natural carrion predators. All the research already conducted by hundreds of people – GNR, civil defence, firemen and other volunteers – is re-examined in detail and re-analysed.

After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz. He praises there is nothe quality of the work carried out by the Portuguese authorities in trying to find the little girl alive. According to him, the time has come to redirect the searches in order to find, this time, a body hidden in the surrounding area.

I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz. (See my second report entitled “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine”).

Mark Harrison

Are you (slowly) starting to understand why Amaral will lose the libel trial?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on November 19, 2015, 09:43:10 PM
I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz. (See my second report entitled “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine”).

Mark Harrison

Are you (slowly) starting to understand why Amaral will lose the libel trial?

When will you ever understand that this has never been a libel trial?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 09:45:53 PM
When will you ever understand that this has never been a libel trial?

Next, you will be re-iterating that the woman at the libel trial who said most of Amaral's book was made up was being facetious. 

Welcome back, by the way ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 19, 2015, 09:58:55 PM
My Harrison thing?

I am repeating what's written in the files.

Read Harrison's terms of reference.

He was handed a brief, by the PJ, to investigate that Madeleine had been murdered and did so.

Harrison's own, personal, conclusion was inconclusive.  He formed no firm opinion about what might have happened to Madeleine.

He also stressed that no inference could be drawn from the reactions of the dogs.

It's all in the files ....

Yes, it IS your Harrison Amaral ""thing"
FACT remains Amaral or anyne else never accused the Mccanns of murder, its all in your imagnation
Anyway, off topic ...lets wait and see how the appeal (that you said could not or would not happen) pans out hey?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 10:07:12 PM
Yes, it IS your Harrison Amaral ""thing"
FACT remains Amaral or anyne else never accused the Mccanns of murder, its all in your imagnation
Anyway, off topic ...lets wait and see how the appeal (that you said could not or would not happen) pans out hey?

The conclusion of a murder enquiry was 3 arguidos, the McCanns and Robert Murat:

Re Visiting Previously Searched Areas.

In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination.


(Mark Harrison)

ETA: Harrison offered to consider other possibilities or scenarios on request.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 19, 2015, 10:15:22 PM
Ferryman you sound like a stuck record, and not a single person supports your view, nuff said, youre entitled to your opinion but you are NOT entited to pass it off as fact, im out of this so called theory, its boring
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 19, 2015, 10:23:31 PM
Ferryman you sound like a stuck record, and not a single person supports your view, nuff said, youre entitled to your opinion but you are NOT entited to pass it off as fact, im out of this so called theory, its boring

I haven't expressed a view.

I've stated facts.

But my rapidly dwindling stamina won't allow me to keep this up.

So I'll leave you to it ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 19, 2015, 10:40:37 PM
- That is what I said, you cant not have intent and
- No one accused them of murder... Please dont repeat your Harrison thing and your personal interpretation then pass it off as fact,  heard it all before

Would that be Harrison thing or Harrison Thyng?
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=harrison+thyng

 8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 23, 2015, 09:51:27 PM
I haven't expressed a view.

I've stated facts.

But my rapidly dwindling stamina won't allow me to keep this up.

So I'll leave you to it ...

Facts can be manipulated...there is no connection that I can see between Amaral asking Harrison to investigating a murder scenario and where a body might be and accusing their parents of a murder which is what you  are trying to push
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 23, 2015, 09:55:30 PM
Would that be Harrison thing or Harrison Thyng?
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=harrison+thyng

 8(0(*

Less honourable I guess
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 23, 2015, 10:05:56 PM
Facts can be manipulated...there is no connection that I can see between Amaral asking Harrison to investigating a murder scenario and where a body might be and accusing their parents of a murder which is what you  are trying to push

Indeed Merc,  It was always going to be a discussion that police feared Maddie may be dead, so it was not unusual to look at ways of searching for a body. This death could have been at the hands of  an 'abductor' rather than accusing parents of murder. ppft.  Mind you we have to look at something else in this spiders web of a story. I AM OF THE OPINION that A dead child would not be a good marketing ploy to bring in money for a fund now would it? Hence why  there will be no talk of death  IMO. AND no talk of a child of 3 comming to harm due to her parents behaviour.  Amaral has all this in his court to argue his case at a review or retrial or whatever route is taken.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on November 24, 2015, 11:23:44 AM
It is instructive to contrast the preface to the report prepared by Mark Harrison, (4th Paragraph) where he says that "this report solely considers the possibility that Madeleine has been murdered......etc.....other scenarios or possibilites may on request be considered an be the subject of a further report

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id293.html

and Amaral's interpretation

except from his book

"After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz. He praises the quality of the work carried out by the Portuguese authorities in trying to find the little girl alive. According to him, the time has come to redirect the searches in order to find, this time, a body hidden in the surrounding area."

http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.blogspot.co.uk/search?updated-max=2009-06-08T14:18:00-07:00&max-results=1

Ch 16, Para 4

So lets see

The PJ Coordinator commissions a report solely to consider the possibility that Madeleine has been murdered and her her body concealed.

Mark Harrison produces the report, saying that this only deals with one possibility and other scenarios or possibilities can be considered on request.

Amaral then takes that report as expert evidence that Madeleine has been murdered and her body concealed etc.

_______

Words fail me.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 24, 2015, 01:32:13 PM
Ooops
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 24, 2015, 01:33:36 PM


Ooops I got it wrong again dad. Watch this space!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 24, 2015, 01:35:55 PM
It is instructive to contrast the preface to the report prepared by Mark Harrison, (4th Paragraph) where he says that "this report solely considers the possibility that Madeleine has been murdered......etc.....other scenarios or possibilites may on request be considered an be the subject of a further report

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id293.html

and Amaral's interpretation

except from his book

"After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz. He praises the quality of the work carried out by the Portuguese authorities in trying to find the little girl alive. According to him, the time has come to redirect the searches in order to find, this time, a body hidden in the surrounding area."

http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.blogspot.co.uk/search?updated-max=2009-06-08T14:18:00-07:00&max-results=1

Ch 16, Para 4

So lets see

The PJ Coordinator commissions a report solely to consider the possibility that Madeleine has been murdered and her her body concealed.

Mark Harrison produces the report, saying that this only deals with one possibility and other scenarios or possibilities can be considered on request.

Amaral then takes that report as expert evidence that Madeleine has been murdered and her body concealed etc.

_______

Words fail me.

Then there there were the concluding words of Harrison's final report:


I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz. (See my second report entitled “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine”).

And Amaral in his El Mundo interview: we talked about death by others, not murder ...

Quite ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 24, 2015, 01:42:22 PM
It is instructive to contrast the preface to the report prepared by Mark Harrison, (4th Paragraph) where he says that "this report solely considers the possibility that Madeleine has been murdered......etc.....other scenarios or possibilites may on request be considered an be the subject of a further report

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id293.html

and Amaral's interpretation

except from his book

"After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz. He praises the quality of the work carried out by the Portuguese authorities in trying to find the little girl alive. According to him, the time has come to redirect the searches in order to find, this time, a body hidden in the surrounding area."

http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.blogspot.co.uk/search?updated-max=2009-06-08T14:18:00-07:00&max-results=1

Ch 16, Para 4

So lets see

The PJ Coordinator commissions a report solely to consider the possibility that Madeleine has been murdered and her her body concealed.

Mark Harrison produces the report, saying that this only deals with one possibility and other scenarios or possibilities can be considered on request.

Amaral then takes that report as expert evidence that Madeleine has been murdered and her body concealed etc.

_______

Words fail me.

Why do words fail you?.
Change the names to Joe Bloggs and Jim Crudd who have been having a legal todo. Each writes a book to put his side. Joe will write to show himself in the best light and Jim in the worst light according to what line each is attempting to peddle. Ditto with it the Jim and Joe way around. No surprises there.

This is interesting though:
Madeleine McCann Search Decision Support Document

"The reconnaissance undertaken and this report has been completed at the direct request and benefit of Guillhemino Encamacao the Algarve Regional Director of the Portuguese Judicial Police"
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
No mention by name of Boogah Man I that I can see.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 24, 2015, 02:05:02 PM
Why do words fail you?.
Change the names to Joe Bloggs and Jim Crudd who have been having a legal todo. Each writes a book to put his side. Joe will write to show himself in the best light and Jim in the worst light according to what line each is attempting to peddle. Ditto with it the Jim and Joe way around. No surprises there.

This is interesting though:
Madeleine McCann Search Decision Support Document

"The reconnaissance undertaken and this report has been completed at the direct request and benefit of Guillhemino Encamacao the Algarve Regional Director of the Portuguese Judicial Police"
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
No mention by name of Boogah Man I that I can see.

As I've understood it, by Portuguese law, you've hit on something that, by Portuguese law, Amaral might have been able to use in his defence, but for one thing.

What you outline is what is, I believe, referred to in Portuguese law as to s/he who is willing, no harm can come, which enunciates precisely that principle: Kate wrote her book and Amaral his.

That creates a situation of annulment of the usual rules of libel.

However, what spoils it for Amaral is that he was demonstrated to have breached secrecy by publishing details of his book before secrecy was lifted.

Otherwise, he wouldn't have lost (at least the first round).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on November 24, 2015, 02:49:34 PM
Why do words fail you?.
Change the names to Joe Bloggs and Jim Crudd who have been having a legal todo. Each writes a book to put his side. Joe will write to show himself in the best light and Jim in the worst light according to what line each is attempting to peddle. Ditto with it the Jim and Joe way around. No surprises there.

This is interesting though:
Madeleine McCann Search Decision Support Document

"The reconnaissance undertaken and this report has been completed at the direct request and benefit of Guillhemino Encamacao the Algarve Regional Director of the Portuguese Judicial Police"
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
No mention by name of Boogah Man I that I can see.

More pertinent, Alice, would be to change the names to Detective Inspector Joe Bloggs, and Mr and Mrs Jim Crudd whose case his he has been investigating.  He uses a report as part of his book accusing them of criminal activity even though the case hasnot resulted in an arrest, let alone a conviction. 

It comes to light that the report only covers a very specific scenario yet he has based most of his "case" against Mr and Mrs Crudd on the conclusions reached in that report - Both ploce case and his book. 

Ex Detective Inspector Joe Bloggs is left with egg on face and a hefty bill. 
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 24, 2015, 04:01:56 PM
More pertinent, Alice, would be to change the names to Detective Inspector Joe Bloggs, and Mr and Mrs Jim Crudd whose case his he has been investigating.  He uses a report as part of his book accusing them of criminal activity even though the case hasnot resulted in an arrest, let alone a conviction. 

It comes to light that the report only covers a very specific scenario yet he has based most of his "case" against Mr and Mrs Crudd on the conclusions reached in that report - Both ploce case and his book. 

Ex Detective Inspector Joe Bloggs is left with egg on face and a hefty bill. 
 

The other party has the real hefty bill.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on November 24, 2015, 04:19:07 PM
The other party has the real hefty bill.

That goes without saying of course.  Never one to miss an opportunity, eh, Stephen. 

Its sad though that the Ex Cop chose to compound the parents anguish by writing his libelous book. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 24, 2015, 04:21:21 PM
That goes without saying of course.  Never one to miss an opportunity, eh, Stephen. 

Its sad though that the Ex Cop chose to compound the parents anguish by writing his libelous book.

Nope, anymore than you.

As to the parents anguish,  crime remains unknown.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on November 24, 2015, 04:28:54 PM
Nope, anymore than you.

As to the parents anguish,  crime remains unknown.

Well given that over the past 7 years, and Portugal's finest doing their damdest to pin something on Madeleines parents (not to mention a veritable host of the most highly qualified internet investigators) and failing, I suggest whoever did the crime it aint them. 

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 24, 2015, 04:37:53 PM
Well given that over the past 7 years, and Portugal's finest doing their damdest to pin something on Madeleines parents (not to mention a veritable host of the most highly qualified internet investigators) and failing, I suggest whoever did the crime it aint them.

You don't know that.

Besides, no else is in the frame.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 24, 2015, 04:38:17 PM
More pertinent, Alice, would be to change the names to Detective Inspector Joe Bloggs, and Mr and Mrs Jim Crudd whose case his he has been investigating.  He uses a report as part of his book accusing them of criminal activity even though the case hasnot resulted in an arrest, let alone a conviction. 

It comes to light that the report only covers a very specific scenario yet he has based most of his "case" against Mr and Mrs Crudd on the conclusions reached in that report - Both ploce case and his book. 

Ex Detective Inspector Joe Bloggs is left with egg on face and a hefty bill. 
 

Liberally seasoned with words like hypothesis and plausible scenario.
Maybe he will get the shaft who knows. My point remains, do you seriously expect either book to be anything other than an exercise to show the author in the best light and the opposing party in the worst light?
I don't, and would take the contents of either book with bushels of salt on that basis.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 24, 2015, 04:44:22 PM
Liberally seasoned with words like hypothesis and plausible scenario.
Maybe he will get the shaft who knows. My point remains, do you seriously expect either book to be anything other than an exercise to show the author in the best light and the opposing party in the worst light?
I don't, and would take the contents of either book with bushels of salt on that basis.

amaral does not talk about hyoptheses...he says Maddie died in the apartment.....ne says maddie's body was in the hire car...he states these things as facts
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 24, 2015, 04:56:26 PM
amaral does not talk about hyoptheses...he says Maddie died in the apartment.....ne says maddie's body was in the hire car...he states these things as facts

Not according to the link J-P posted.
Either you are wrong and the link is hookey or vicky verky.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on November 24, 2015, 05:27:02 PM
Not according to the link J-P posted.
Either you are wrong and the link is hookey or vicky verky.

He says that too.  Full of theories he is.  The Harrison episode is a good example of his hopelessly muddled thinking.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 24, 2015, 05:40:52 PM
Not according to the link J-P posted.
Either you are wrong and the link is hookey or vicky verky.
Chapter 22:

Quote
The conclusions my team and I have arrived at are the following:

1. The minor, Madeleine McCann died inside apartment 5A of the Ocean Club in Vila da Luz, on the night of May 3rd 2007;

No hypothesis mentioned.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 24, 2015, 09:40:59 PM
He says that too.  Full of theories he is.  The Harrison episode is a good example of his hopelessly muddled thinking.

The appellate court decided his conclusions / interpretations were logically and solidly built based on the evidence, so whats your problem? Do you know better than the judges?

They also said the archiving report by the public prosecutor was not written in stone.

There is such a thing in this world called having a different opinion.....the alternative is fascism, despotism and the rest.....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 24, 2015, 09:47:18 PM
The appellate court decided his conclusions / interpretations were logically and solidly built based on the evidence, so whats your problem? Do you know better than the judges?

They also said the archiving report by the public prosecutor was not written in stone.

There is such a thing in this world called having a different opinion.....the alternative is fascism, despotism and the rest.....
  there's also something called libel
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 24, 2015, 10:18:13 PM
He says that too.  Full of theories he is.  The Harrison episode is a good example of his hopelessly muddled thinking.

It is not unusual for detectives to have various theories, it is part of the job piecing things together. Motive, means and opportunity. Basic but brilliant.

Amarals book was not declared libelous. And one can only wonder why  'grieving parents' who's daughter could have been suffering unspeakable torture/abuse ( mental, physical, sexual) had the time and foresight to put so much energy into this case. The money they spent/the travel from the 'fund'  TO look for their daughter.
 Apart from their apparent love of fame and fortune of which they had in abundance. Which is evidenced in their behaviour.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 24, 2015, 10:41:15 PM
Chapter 22:

No hypothesis mentioned.

Try reading the whole book Alf, it is strewn with caveats. Which was the point of my post.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 24, 2015, 10:50:44 PM
Try reading the whole book Alf, it is strewn with caveats. Which was the point of my post.
So I can disregard the conclusion then (which is unequivocal), is that what you're telling me?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 24, 2015, 11:12:39 PM
So I can disregard the conclusion then (which is unequivocal), is that what you're telling me?

The part of the "conclusion" you quote was actually postulated by DCI Andy in his usual all round The Wrekin syntax.
There are ten points to the summary and conclusion in Sr Amarals book why skint yourself on just one bit?. I guess counting is not your long suit.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 25, 2015, 05:46:50 PM
242 pages and almost 7 months since the opening post of this thread, and still no official confirmation of Amaral's appeal.

Why is that?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on November 25, 2015, 05:50:19 PM
242 pages and almost 7 months since the opening post of this thread, and still no official confirmation of Amaral's appeal.

Why is that?

I don't suppose anyone official posts on here.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 25, 2015, 05:51:43 PM

The part of the "conclusion" you quote was actually postulated by DCI Andy in his usual all round The Wrekin syntax.
There are ten points to the summary and conclusion in Sr Amarals book why skint yourself on just one bit?. I guess counting is not your long suit.

Hang on a minute.

Davel said that Amaral stated as fact that Madeleine died in the apartment.

You said "not according to the link provided"

I posted proof from his idiotic book that he DID state as FACT that Madeleine died in the apartment.

You claimed it was just a hypothesis.

I proved it was part of his conclusion, no equivocation.

I can count thanks, and I can count on you to muddy the waters as usual.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on November 25, 2015, 05:56:03 PM
Hang on a minute.

Davel said that Amaral stated as fact that Madeleine died in the apartment.

You said "not according to the link provided"

I posted proof from his idiotic book that he DID state as FACT that Madeleine died in the apartment.

You claimed it was just a hypothesis.

I proved it was part of his conclusion, no equivocation.

I can count thanks, and I can count on you to muddy the waters as usual.

In the UK we have...

Quote
The 'honest opinion' defence will replace the 'fair comment' defence when the Defamation Act 2013 comes into force.

It can be used as a defence to defamation claims if the defendant can show (i) that the statement in question was an opinion, (ii) that within the statement there was an apparent basis to the opinion and (iii) the statement is one that an honest person could have held.

A person claiming defamation can defeat this defence if they can demonstrate that the author of the statement complained about did not hold the opinion.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 25, 2015, 06:00:13 PM
In the UK we have...
Thanks but that is totally irrelevant to the point I was making in my post, in response to Alice.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 25, 2015, 06:33:58 PM
Hang on a minute.

Davel said that Amaral stated as fact that Madeleine died in the apartment.

You said "not according to the link provided"

I posted proof from his idiotic book that he DID state as FACT that Madeleine died in the apartment.

You claimed it was just a hypothesis.

I proved it was part of his conclusion, no equivocation.

I can count thanks, and I can count on you to muddy the waters as usual.

Davel said    "he [Amaral] states these things as facts".
He doesn't not. He says "The conclusions my team and I have arrived at are the following:".
As no one can prove one way or another what happened what is any conclusion other than a hypothesis at this junction as yer might say.
Muddy Waters cool dude.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 25, 2015, 06:37:09 PM
Davel said    "he [Amaral] states these things as facts".
He doesn't not. He says "The conclusions my team and I have arrived at are the following:".
As no one can prove one way or another what happened what is any conclusion other than a hypothesis at this junction as yer might say.
Muddy Waters cool dude.
You are categorically wrong.  On the subject of the death in the apartment, Amaral concludes that Madeleine died there because of his firm belief in the accuracy of the dog alerts.  No hypothesis, no equivocation.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 25, 2015, 07:37:18 PM
You are categorically wrong.  On the subject of the death in the apartment, Amaral concludes that Madeleine died there because of his firm belief in the accuracy of the dog alerts.  No hypothesis, no equivocation.

If memory serves right, he does hedge it slightly, with words such as probably, which certainly in terms of English libel law, mitigates the libel not one jot.

All ought to be bad news for Amaral's appeal ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 25, 2015, 07:44:17 PM
If memory serves right, he does hedge it slightly, with words such as probably, which certainly in terms of English libel law, mitigates the libel not one jot.

All ought to be bad news for Amaral's appeal ....

If you are going to use English law (not sure why)  you may as well at least acknowledge it has come closer to current Portuguese law vis a vis as Slarti posted above

The 'honest opinion' defence will replace the 'fair comment' defence when the Defamation Act 2013 comes into force.

It can be used as a defence to defamation claims if the defendant can show (i) that the statement in question was an opinion, (ii) that within the statement there was an apparent basis to the opinion and (iii) the statement is one that an honest person could have held.

A person claiming defamation can defeat this defence if they can demonstrate that the author of the statement complained about did not hold the opinion.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 25, 2015, 08:41:28 PM
If you are going to use English law (not sure why)  you may as well at least acknowledge it has come closer to current Portuguese law vis a vis as Slarti posted above

The 'honest opinion' defence will replace the 'fair comment' defence when the Defamation Act 2013 comes into force.

It can be used as a defence to defamation claims if the defendant can show (i) that the statement in question was an opinion, (ii) that within the statement there was an apparent basis to the opinion and (iii) the statement is one that an honest person could have held.

A person claiming defamation can defeat this defence if they can demonstrate that the author of the statement complained about did not hold the opinion.
Per

Just give an example of this defence being used
I believe Bennett thought of using it and was advised to put his house on the market and declare himself homeless
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 25, 2015, 09:01:43 PM
Amaral will win his appeal...good stuff....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 25, 2015, 09:07:40 PM
Amaral will win his appeal...good stuff....

So you are quoting English libel law to come to the conclusion that amaral will win his not libel case in a Portuguese court .....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on November 25, 2015, 10:56:34 PM
So you are quoting English libel law to come to the conclusion that amaral will win his not libel case in a Portuguese court .....

Strange how various supporters have been using English Libel laws to suggest GA is guilty of libel in PT and now his defence in English Libel Law is shown it is suddenly not applicable because the current damages trial is in PT.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 25, 2015, 11:09:38 PM
Strange how various supporters have been using English Libel laws to suggest GA is guilty of libel in PT and now his defence in English Libel Law is shown it is suddenly not applicable because the current damages trial is in PT.

Where I come from it's described as "wanting your bun and your ha'penny"  8(>((
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 25, 2015, 11:14:56 PM
Strange how various supporters have been using English Libel laws to suggest GA is guilty of libel in PT and now his defence in English Libel Law is shown it is suddenly not applicable because the current damages trial is in PT.
even stranger how most sceptics are adamant this case is nothing whatsoever to do with libel, so what are you on about anyway?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on November 25, 2015, 11:35:35 PM
It isn't really rocket science, the trial was held in Portugal and the word difamação (defamation) wasn't used once.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 26, 2015, 07:59:44 AM
Strange how various supporters have been using English Libel laws to suggest GA is guilty of libel in PT and now his defence in English Libel Law is shown it is suddenly not applicable because the current damages trial is in PT.

the point of my post is that mercury was doing this so I don't know which supporters you are talking about
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 26, 2015, 08:01:05 AM
It isn't really rocket science, the trial was held in Portugal and the word difamação (defamation) wasn't used once.

and others might say ..if it walks like a duck....it is described by the Portuguese press as a defemation trial....but what would they know. What looks good for the McCanns is that amaral has broken specific Portuguese laws that look quite clear cut...it may well be his appeal is against his sentence rather than the actual judgement
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 26, 2015, 08:26:56 AM
and others might say ..if it walks like a duck....it is described by the Portuguese press as a defemation trial....but what would they know. What looks good for the McCanns is that amaral has broken specific Portuguese laws that look quite clear cut...it may well be his appeal is against his sentence rather than the actual judgement

Why not simply wait for the judgement and any subsequent appeals ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 26, 2015, 08:28:23 AM
Why not simply wait for the judgement and any subsequent appeals ?

why not simply wait for the judgement re maddie rather than spending every day slagging off the parents
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 26, 2015, 08:30:45 AM
why not simply wait for the judgement re maddie rather than spending every day slagging off the parents

What judgement in reference to her ?

and you enjoy slagging off Amaral, and other posters who don't follow your line.

Hypocrite or what ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 26, 2015, 09:12:55 AM
the point of my post is that mercury was doing this so I don't know which supporters you are talking about

No, sunshne, get it right, it was ferryman who invoked english libel law for some unfathomable reason....

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 26, 2015, 11:16:37 AM
No, sunshne, get it right, it was ferryman who invoked english libel law for some unfathomable reason....

Try again.

Slartibarfast (post number 3622 of this thread) who introduced English libel law into the discussion.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on November 26, 2015, 12:12:25 PM
Try again.

Slartibarfast (post number 3622 of this thread) who introduced English libel law into the discussion.

Since you keep stating it was libel you can only be referring to English Law because libel has been legally discounted in Portugal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on November 26, 2015, 04:13:32 PM
Since you keep stating it was libel you can only be referring to English Law because libel has been legally discounted in Portugal.

                                     What are the damages awarded for then?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on November 26, 2015, 06:52:57 PM
                                     What are the damages awarded for then?

Well it wasn't libel.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 26, 2015, 07:26:16 PM
Well it wasn't libel.
then tell us what the damages were awarded for.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 26, 2015, 08:45:27 PM
Not libel
As decreed by the judges at the appelate court years ago...to think a lower court could overrride a higher court is silly
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 26, 2015, 09:20:55 PM
Not libel
As decreed by the judges at the appelate court years ago...to think a lower court could overrride a higher court is silly

where did the appellate court state it was considering libel...it didn't
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Co
Post by: mercury on November 26, 2015, 09:38:32 PM
where did the appellate court state it was considering libel...it didn't

Seeing as the mccanns action was a libel writ and the lower courts decision was overturned its as simple as abc...you dont have to be  einstein lol, whch obviously you  are not by any stretch.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Co
Post by: Mr Gray on November 26, 2015, 09:46:49 PM
Seeing as the mccanns action was a libel writ and the lower courts decision was overturned its as simple as abc...you dont have to be  einstein lol, whch obviously you  are not by any stretch.

so the mccanns action is now a libel writ...the appellate court did not even consider libel...I'm not Einstein...he died some years ago
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Co
Post by: mercury on November 26, 2015, 09:53:24 PM
so the mccanns action is now a libel writ...the appellate court did not even consider libel...I'm not Einstein...he died some years ago
No, it is not NOW, it always has been, the very fact that the upper court threw out the lower courts decision is testament to the fact they had no case in any way shape or form

Yes you are not einstein even though you attempt to portray yourself as him or something  similar...millions of miles away always, its an insult to the man at best
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Co
Post by: Mr Gray on November 26, 2015, 10:01:38 PM
No, it is not NOW, it always has been, the very fact that the upper court threw out the lower courts decision is testament to the fact they had no case in any way shape or form

Yes you are not einstein even though you attempt to portray yourself as him or something  similar...millions of miles away always, its an insult to the man at best

well they have no case according to yet have been awarded an absolute fortune...think you are mistaken.....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Co
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 26, 2015, 10:19:18 PM
well they have no case according to yet have been awarded an absolute fortune...think you are mistaken.....

Yes they can rejoice, jump for joy, be happy and smug but still ...erm wait a minute did someone mention how happy Maddie would be at her paretns doing ALLA this for her? or does her body lie alone someplace? 

but at least her parents have been awared lots of cash  wheyyyyyyyyyyyy heyyyyyyyyyyy whoope de doops. Gosh money they would never have made without their daughter disappearing...um, oh, yeah.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Co
Post by: Mr Gray on November 26, 2015, 10:23:01 PM
Yes they can rejoice, jump for joy, be happy and smug but still ...erm wait a minute did someone mention how happy Maddie would be at her paretns doing ALLA this for her? or does her body lie alone someplace? 

but at least her parents have been awared lots of cash  wheyyyyyyyyyyyy heyyyyyyyyyyy whoope de doops. Gosh money they would never have made without their daughter disappearing...um, oh, yeah.

what an absolutely ridiculous reply
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Co
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 26, 2015, 10:30:30 PM
what an absolutely ridiculous reply

You think?  You all became so smug, and happy for the very sad and hurt couple, but you yourself mentioned the  large amount of money as if this was something brilliant and to celebrate a victory, are you saying they don't want it now? Oh ok. 8(>((
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Co
Post by: Brietta on November 27, 2015, 12:43:05 AM
Yes they can rejoice, jump for joy, be happy and smug but still ...erm wait a minute did someone mention how happy Maddie would be at her paretns doing ALLA this for her? or does her body lie alone someplace? 

but at least her parents have been awared lots of cash  wheyyyyyyyyyyyy heyyyyyyyyyyy whoope de doops. Gosh money they would never have made without their daughter disappearing...um, oh, yeah.

Isn't it lucky Mr Amaral will be enabled to fund the damages awarded to the Drs McCann from the profits he made on the back of a missing little girl and the pillorying of her parents in what some promote as the non-libellous book he authored about them.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 27, 2015, 02:09:10 AM
Does anyone know on what date MFLNSU Ltd stopped funding Duarte legal expenses?
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on November 27, 2015, 02:23:09 AM
Does anyone know on what date MFLNSU Ltd stopped funding Duarte legal expenses?
 

Does anyone know if PJGA have actually paid any of Amaral's legal expenses?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 27, 2015, 02:37:04 AM
Does anyone know if PJGA have actually paid any of Amaral's legal expenses?
PJGA have stated that they have.
What else would they do with the money raised - their one and only object, clearly stated, is to pay Mr Amaral's legal expenses.
Meanwhile it is a complete mystery who is now paying Sra Duarte - MFLNSU Ltd are no longer doing so - and it's not even in their stated objects - so who is?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on November 27, 2015, 02:52:16 AM
PJGA have stated that they have.
What else would they do with the money raised - their one and only object, clearly stated, is to pay Mr Amaral's legal expenses.
Meanwhile it is a complete mystery who is now paying Sra Duarte - MFLNSU Ltd are no longer doing so - and it's not even in their stated objects - so who is?

Maybe the McCanns are paying her bill themselves? Portuguese lawyers can't be that expensive if Amaral has met all his costs with money to spare.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 27, 2015, 10:14:15 AM
Not libel
As decreed by the judges at the appelate court years ago...to think a lower court could overrride a higher court is silly

Good grief!

Is there really still confusion over the (entirely separate and unrelated) dispute over the injunction and the libel trial, concluded (in favour of the McCanns) last April?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 27, 2015, 10:36:13 AM
Good grief!

Is there really still confusion over the (entirely separate and unrelated) dispute over the injunction and the libel trial, concluded (in favour of the McCanns) last April?

Round 1 10:9 McCann:Amaral
Round 2 ?
Round 3 ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on November 27, 2015, 02:36:03 PM
PJGA have stated that they have.
What else would they do with the money raised - their one and only object, clearly stated, is to pay Mr Amaral's legal expenses.
Meanwhile it is a complete mystery who is now paying Sra Duarte - MFLNSU Ltd are no longer doing so - and it's not even in their stated objects - so who is?

Could you just provide a cite for where the McCanns have made an appeal for money to fund their legal fees for the action against Amaral?  Thanks.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 27, 2015, 02:41:50 PM
Round 1 10:9 McCann:Amaral
Round 2 ?
Round 3 ?

I shan't quibble with the questionmarks ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 27, 2015, 03:02:37 PM
I shan't quibble with the questionmarks ....

You don't think round one was scored 10:9 then?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 27, 2015, 03:04:16 PM
You don't think round one was scored 10:9 then?

I incline to the view that the gap was a little wider than that ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 27, 2015, 03:18:06 PM
I incline to the view that the gap was a little wider than that ....

I don't see anyone was knocked down or even had a mandatory "standing eight count" so no points to be deducted.
In the end it was who would you rather have been in the ring?  Ten to them and nine to other geezer.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 27, 2015, 03:57:58 PM
Round 1 10:9 McCann:Amaral
Round 2 ?
Round 3 ?

from what I can see the only action amaral won was the one the mccanns did not contend
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 27, 2015, 04:10:00 PM
from what I can see the only action amaral won was the one the mccanns did not contend

I am only talking about the "libel trial". What are you talking about ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 27, 2015, 04:19:10 PM
I am only talking about the "libel trial". What are you talking about ?

the mccanns won the libel trial
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 27, 2015, 04:23:57 PM
the mccanns won the libel trial
There is one round, at least, to go in that fight.
After round one the score is 10:9 in favour of McCann.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 27, 2015, 04:28:45 PM
There is one round, at least, to go in that fight.
After round one the score is 10:9 in favour of McCann.

bit like saying you came second in a boxing match
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 27, 2015, 04:39:31 PM
I am only talking about the "libel trial". What are you talking about ?

The action named 5 people. Two of them got a payout, three didn't. It also mentioned harm done to the search for Madeleine - not proven.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 27, 2015, 04:49:44 PM
The action named 5 people. Two of them got a payout, three didn't. It also mentioned harm done to the search for Madeleine - not proven.

so it seems to you the mccanns lost the trial about 8 to 2...makes you wonder why amaral is apppealing
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 27, 2015, 04:51:45 PM
The action named 5 people. Two of them got a payout, three didn't. It also mentioned harm done to the search for Madeleine - not proven.

Amaral didn't libel Madeleine  or the twins ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 27, 2015, 04:55:13 PM
the mccanns won the libel trial

On how many counts did they fail to win in court ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 27, 2015, 05:09:51 PM
Amaral didn't libel Madeleine  or the twins ....

Seems team McCann need telling about that;

In a statement issued by their family spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, they said: “We are delighted with the judge’s verdict today. We want to emphasise the action was never about money. It was entirely focused on the effect of the libels on our other children and the damage that was done to the search for Madeleine.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/apr/28/madeleine-mccann-parents-win-libel-damages-goncalo-amaral-trial
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 27, 2015, 05:12:05 PM
Seems team McCann need telling about that;

In a statement issued by their family spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, they said: “We are delighted with the judge’s verdict today. We want to emphasise the action was never about money. It was entirely focused on the effect of the libels on our other children and the damage that was done to the search for Madeleine.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/apr/28/madeleine-mccann-parents-win-libel-damages-goncalo-amaral-trial
that doesn't claim the children were libelled, only that they were damaged by the libels their parents suffered.  I thought you were supposed to be reasonably intelligent?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 27, 2015, 05:14:48 PM
that doesn't claim the children were libelled, only that they were damaged by the libels their parents suffered.  I thought you were supposed to be reasonably intelligent?

How were their 'other' children damaged then? what about the 'search' comment?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 27, 2015, 05:15:36 PM
On how many counts did they fail to win in court ?

what absolute tosh your post is...it was a victory for the mccanns...record damages...the book banned...and you think it was a successs for amaral
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 27, 2015, 05:16:38 PM
How were their 'other' children damaged then? what about the 'search' comment?

so you don't understand how the twins would be damaged by libel against their parents
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 27, 2015, 05:17:03 PM
How were their 'other' children damaged then? what about the 'search' comment?
well, let's see.  Imagine you're a child and you read that your parents hid your sister's body and lied about it to all and sundry.  Then imagine your school friends got hold of this story and teased you about it, now would that cause you any damage to you as a child, or do you think they should have grown a thicker skin and just manned up to it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 27, 2015, 05:18:28 PM
How were their 'other' children damaged then? what about the 'search' comment?
RE: the "search" comment, Kate and Gerry believed that the search for Madeleine was damaged by Amaral's propaganda campaign against them.  That is a reasonablr belief to hold in my view.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 27, 2015, 05:23:24 PM
bit like saying you came second in a boxing match

The bout is not over yet.
McCann won round one; based on pro boxing scoring it was 10:9.
Round 2 in progress.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 27, 2015, 05:25:07 PM
that doesn't claim the children were libelled, only that they were damaged by the libels their parents suffered.  I thought you were supposed to be reasonably intelligent?

Thank you Alfred.

But I suspect that some people would find it hard to understand that putting it about that the McCanns killed their elder sister, then covered up her death and fabricated an abduction would have an effect on the twins .....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 27, 2015, 05:25:20 PM
so it seems to you the mccanns lost the trial about 8 to 2...makes you wonder why amaral is apppealing

Because he can?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 27, 2015, 05:27:08 PM
so you don't understand how the twins would be damaged by libel against their parents

G-Unit clearly doesn't.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 27, 2015, 05:33:08 PM
Does anyone have a copy of the original writ?
As I recall the damages sought were roughly split:
Madeleine 250k; Sean & Amelie 90K each;Kate & Gerry 250k each.
With side dishes of how the contents of the book had damaged the search for Madeleine and caused some harm to her parents.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on November 27, 2015, 05:55:35 PM
Thank you Alfred.

But I suspect that some people would find it hard to understand that putting it about that the McCanns killed their elder sister, then covered up her death and fabricated an abduction would have an effect on the twins .....

So who says they killed her?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on November 27, 2015, 06:26:19 PM
Seems team McCann need telling about that;

In a statement issued by their family spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, they said: “We are delighted with the judge’s verdict today. We want to emphasise the action was never about money. It was entirely focused on the effect of the libels on our other children and the damage that was done to the search for Madeleine.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/apr/28/madeleine-mccann-parents-win-libel-damages-goncalo-amaral-trial

Why would Clarence Mitchell say that about the children and the search? The judge stated in her decision that it was not proven that the book had harmed the other children nor had it harmed the search for Madeleine. Talk about out and out lying.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 27, 2015, 06:36:30 PM
Why would Clarence Mitchell say that about the children and the search? The judge stated in her decision that it was not proven that the book had harmed the other children nor had it harmed the search for Madeleine. Talk about out and out lying.

the judge stated it had not been proven...not that the search hadnt been harmed...that is a fact
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on November 27, 2015, 06:39:00 PM
the judge stated it had not been proven...not that the search hadnt been harmed...that is a fact

That's the same as someone being found not guilty and people saying that they may be?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 27, 2015, 06:39:59 PM
That's the same as someone being found not guilty and people saying that they may be?

you mean like OJ Simpson
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 27, 2015, 06:46:37 PM
Thank you Alfred.

But I suspect that some people would find it hard to understand that putting it about that the McCanns killed their elder sister, then covered up her death and fabricated an abduction would have an effect on the twins .....

Do you think the money their parents may get will make the children feel better? Banning the book doesn't help, because  Amaral isn't the only one saying their parents were involved either.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 27, 2015, 06:49:47 PM
Do you think the money their parents may get will make the children feel better? Banning the book doesn't help, because  Amaral isn't the only one saying their parents were involved either.
Money was never the most important thing...stopping the lies was and the mcccanns have been totally successful in stopping amaral and stripping him of his ill gotten gains
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 27, 2015, 06:57:02 PM
Money was never the most important thing...stopping the lies was and the mcccanns have been totally successful in stopping amaral and stripping him of his ill gotten gains
The book is obtainable on that tinternet and Sr Amaral has appealed. No lasting result yet.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 27, 2015, 06:59:11 PM
The book is obtainable on that tinternet and Sr Amaral has appealed. No lasting result yet.

never said there was a lasting result...would you not agree that amaral must feel totally humiliated by the judgement of his own countries court
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 27, 2015, 07:08:23 PM
never said there was a lasting result...would you not agree that amaral must feel totally humiliated by the judgement of his own countries court

Why? the "bill" started at £1.2MM and it's now down to £500k. There was the issue that the book impeded the search the judge said it didn't. Sr Amaral was given leave to appeal. So far so good.
I would be p****d off that I didn't get a KO in round one but still the fight goes on. See what the scorecards say at the end of the bout. Had he started the court case and lost then maybe he would feel humiliated but he's there by invitation at the behest of others.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 27, 2015, 07:12:20 PM
Why? the "bill" started at £1.2MM and it's now down to £500k. There was the issue that the book impeded the search the judge said it didn't. Sr Amaral was given leave to appeal. So far so good.
I would be p****d off that I didn't get a KO in round one but still the fight goes on. See what the scorecards say at the end of the bout. Had he started the court case and lost then maybe he would feel humiliated but he's there by invitation at the behest of others.

the judge never said the book did not harm the search.......but I'm a stickler for accuracy and detail
amaral invited the mccanns to sue him...so the mccanns are there at his request
I can see why sceptics such as yourself try to spin the result...it must be devastating for amaral
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 27, 2015, 07:35:09 PM
the judge never said the book did not harm the search.......but I'm a stickler for accuracy and detail
amaral invited the mccanns to sue him...so the mccanns are there at his request
I can see why sceptics such as yourself try to spin the result...it must be devastating for amaral

Why ? he hasn't lost anything yet.
It may be devastating in due course depending on the final score.
Your speculation is it must be devastating for him because you want it to be. That is just your unsubstantiated opinion.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 27, 2015, 07:45:36 PM
So who says they killed her?

Goncalo Amaral.

In summary, that's why he lost the libel trial
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 27, 2015, 08:03:04 PM
Good grief!

Is there really still confusion over the (entirely separate and unrelated) dispute over the injunction and the libel trial, concluded (in favour of the McCanns) last April?

The judge said to Gerald Mccann that the case was not about establishng if the book contents were true or not but only to establsh if the defendant's right to freedom of expression impeded on the plaintiffs' rights....so how is it a libel trial if the issue of truth of statements was not a relevant factor?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 27, 2015, 08:06:36 PM
The judge said to Gerald Mccann that the case was not about establishng if the book contents were true or not but only to establsh if the defendant's right to freedom of expression impeded on the plaintiffs' rights....so how is it a libel trial if the issue of truth of statements was not a relevant factor?

I'm quite certain the judge didn't confuse proceedings over the injunction (which is what you describe above) with the libel trial (which she presided over).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 27, 2015, 08:12:04 PM
I'm quite certain the judge didn't confuse proceedings over the injunction (which is what you describe above) with the libel trial (which she presided over).

Not sure what you mean. Read towards the end.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4746.0
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 27, 2015, 08:17:01 PM
Not sure what you mean. Read towards the end.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4746.0

That's Anne Guide's summary, isn't it?

Didn't she get somewhat muddled with Alan Pike's testimony to the court?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on November 27, 2015, 08:21:29 PM
Goncalo Amaral.

In summary, that's why he lost the libel trial

Please provide a cite for that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 27, 2015, 08:23:18 PM
That's Anne Guide's summary, isn't it?

Didn't she get somewhat muddled with Alan Pike's testimony to the court?

Oh right, so the goalpostshave changed, not to worry then.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 27, 2015, 08:30:26 PM
Why ? he hasn't lost anything yet.
It may be devastating in due course depending on the final score.
Your speculation is it must be devastating for him because you want it to be. That is just your unsubstantiated opinion.

what has he lost as yet...access to his own money......his own countries court has supported the mccannns...fact...
if you don't think he's devastated you are a banana
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 27, 2015, 08:44:29 PM
what has he lost as yet...access to his own money......his own countries court has supported the mccannns...fact...
if you don't think he's devastated you are a banana

The case isn't over yet.

The McCann's have nothing but ongoing legal bills, as I predicted.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 27, 2015, 08:45:40 PM
The case isn't over yet.

The McCann's have nothing but ongoing legal bills, as I predicted.

and amaral lost as I predicted..
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 27, 2015, 08:51:54 PM
and amaral lost as I predicted..

The case isn't over.

How many points in court, did the McCann's fail to prove ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 27, 2015, 08:52:56 PM
Please provide a cite for that.

It does not exist.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 27, 2015, 08:55:25 PM
The case isn't over.

How many points in court, did the McCann's fail to prove ?

He lost that hearing as I predicted
Has he appealed against the judgement or the sentence
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 27, 2015, 08:57:59 PM
He lost that hearing as I predicted
Has he appealed against the judgement or the sentence

Answer the question.

How many points did the McCann's fail to prove ?

They have of course received NOTHING as regards money.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 27, 2015, 09:05:42 PM
Please provide a cite for that.

I'm not repeating the libel over here.

But read chapter 4 of his book in conjunction with the summary.

The clear inference is that there was an overdose of calpol causing a "tragic accident" (falling off a sofa) and death.

If he'd left it at "falling off a sofa" (for which there is zero evidence) at least he wouldn't have accused the McCanns of killing Madeleine.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 27, 2015, 09:09:24 PM
I'm not repeating the libel over here.

But read chapter 4 of his book in conjunction with the summary.

The clear inference is that there was an overdose of calpol causing a "tragic accident" (falling off a sofa) and death.

If he'd left it at "falling off a sofa" (for which there is zero evidence) at least he wouldn't have accused the McCanns of killing Madeleine.

He didn't ferryman.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on November 27, 2015, 09:19:52 PM
I'm not repeating the libel over here.

But read chapter 4 of his book in conjunction with the summary.

The clear inference is that there was an overdose of calpol causing a "tragic accident" (falling off a sofa) and death.

If he'd left it at "falling off a sofa" (for which there is zero evidence) at least he wouldn't have accused the McCanns of killing Madeleine.

No, doesn't cut it. In fact that is your inference.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 27, 2015, 09:22:38 PM
No, doesn't cut it. In fact that is your inference.

What doesn't "cut" what?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 27, 2015, 09:44:16 PM
I'm not repeating the libel over here.

But read chapter 4 of his book in conjunction with the summary.

The clear inference is that there was an overdose of calpol causing a "tragic accident" (falling off a sofa) and death.

If he'd left it at "falling off a sofa" (for which there is zero evidence) at least he wouldn't have accused the McCanns of killing Madeleine.

To play devils advocate, how are you in any position to state it IS libel? Rather than you just  believe it is.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 27, 2015, 09:54:03 PM
To play devils advocate, how are you in any position to state it IS libel? Rather than you just  believe it is.

There is zero evidence to support any of it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 27, 2015, 09:57:05 PM
There is zero evidence to support any of it.

Bit like the abduction? What evidence would there be of it anyway, rhetorical question.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on November 27, 2015, 09:59:22 PM

What doesn't "cut" what?

It means you are adding 2 + 2 and making sure the answer is 5 because it suits your preconceptions. You take a paragraph in chapter 4 and a conclusion in chapter 22 and create a libel all by yourself.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 27, 2015, 10:09:21 PM
It means you are adding 2 + 2 and making sure the answer is 5 because it suits your preconceptions. You take a paragraph in chapter 4 and a conclusion in chapter 22 and create a libel all by yourself.

Nope.

Amaral did that, not me.

That's (one!) of the reasons why he lost the libel trial.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on November 27, 2015, 10:13:52 PM
Nope.

Amaral did that, not me.

That's (one!) of the reasons why he lost the libel trial.

Let's have the cite you seem to think exists.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 27, 2015, 10:21:27 PM
Let's have the cite you seem to think exists.

You've had the cites.

You may not have understood the cites, but that's different ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 27, 2015, 11:04:03 PM
Could you just provide a cite for where the McCanns have made an appeal for money to fund their legal fees for the action against Amaral?  Thanks.

They didnt have to, they could spend all ther donations and libel payments and book revenues as they wished



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 27, 2015, 11:06:46 PM
what has he lost as yet...access to his own money......his own countries court has supported the mccannns...fact...
if you don't think he's devastated you are a banana

His funds were sequestered before this trial started.
His country's own courts have yet to finish ruling.
I am a banana?
You would appear not to be as well educated as you would have us all believe if your vocabulary is such that you can only find puerile comments to make.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on November 27, 2015, 11:45:00 PM
Oh dear.  It seems it a case of 'and some fell on stony ground' in your case, Alice.

The banana reference related to one Hislop I.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 27, 2015, 11:49:38 PM
Could you just provide a cite for where the McCanns have made an appeal for money to fund their legal fees for the action against Amaral?  Thanks.
Yes. Source is the directors' report for the year ended 31 March 2010
"... we have ... continued to pay for legal representation ... to obtain an injunction banning Mr Amaral from ..."
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on November 28, 2015, 12:07:57 AM
Yes. Source is the directors' report for the year ended 31 March 2010
"... we have ... continued to pay for legal representation ... to obtain an injunction banning Mr Amaral from ..."

Where havevthe mccanns or their supporters made an appeal for funds to pay for their legal fees?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 28, 2015, 12:09:51 AM
Yes. Source is the directors' report for the year ended 31 March 2010
"... we have ... continued to pay for legal representation ... to obtain an injunction banning Mr Amaral from ...
They had the  luxury of saying if they wanted to kit was from libel payments not donations.not that it was proved
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 28, 2015, 02:46:31 AM
They had the  luxury of saying if they wanted to kit was from libel payments not donations.not that it was proved
They accepted donations to fund searching and spent some of that money on obtaining an injunction against the book because they said the book was harming the search.
"... we have ... continued to pay for legal representation ... to obtain an injunction banning Mr Amaral from ..."
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 28, 2015, 08:18:32 AM
His funds were sequestered before this trial started.
His country's own courts have yet to finish ruling.
I am a banana?
You would appear not to be as well educated as you would have us all believe if your vocabulary is such that you can only find puerile comments to make.
the banana reference was made by Ian Hislop...educated at Oxford...if he's not well educated then I'm a banana
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 29, 2015, 01:29:21 AM
I hope Mr Amaral wins his appeal
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 29, 2015, 11:21:51 AM
Oh dear.  It seems it a case of 'and some fell on stony ground' in your case, Alice.

The banana reference related to one Hislop I.
Is he one of Sr Amaral's aides?
No comment from you on the rest of the post then J-P ? on that basis one must assume you have have no argument with it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 29, 2015, 12:11:20 PM
Is he one of Sr Amaral's aides?
No comment from you on the rest of the post then J-P ? on that basis one must assume you have have no argument with it.

No he's a very well educated TV personality but as he has never been on coronation st it seems neither you or any of the sceptic community have heard of him
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 29, 2015, 12:26:01 PM
No he's a very well educated TV personality but as he has never been on coronation st it seems neither you or any of the sceptic community have heard of him

As you can find nothing sensible to say I presume you agree with rest of the post as well?
Like Amaral's country's courts remain in deliberation among other things.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 29, 2015, 01:08:28 PM
As you can find nothing sensible to say I presume you agree with rest of the post as well?
Like Amaral's country's courts remain in deliberation among other things.

we don't know...we know he has appealed...but against the sentence or the judgement. The wording judgement shows to me he has little grounds for appeal...but it seems appeal is automatic even if there is little or no chance of success
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 29, 2015, 01:13:52 PM
we don't know...we know he has appealed...but against the sentence or the judgement. The wording judgement shows to me he has little grounds for appeal...but it seems appeal is automatic even if there is little or no chance of success
Will we ever know if his appeal was unsuccessful I wonder...?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on November 29, 2015, 01:30:52 PM
Will we ever know if his appeal was unsuccessful I wonder...?

Oh I'm sure Miss Duarte will have it all over the internet in double quick time.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 29, 2015, 04:23:19 PM
Oh I'm sure Miss Duarte will have it all over the internet in double quick time.
good to know we can rely on someone to keep us informed 😊
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on November 29, 2015, 04:28:50 PM
good to know we can rely on someone to keep us informed 😊

Absolutely!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on November 29, 2015, 04:30:08 PM
Absolutely!

I wonder if it will be similar to last time.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on November 29, 2015, 04:31:20 PM
I wonder if it will be similar to last time.

Depends on the result I suppose.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 29, 2015, 04:33:12 PM
Depends on the result I suppose.

Let's hope amaral is stopped once and for all. Despite his posturing it seems he may have nowhere else to go if this verdict is unfavourable to him...as I expect it to be
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 29, 2015, 05:45:33 PM
Let's hope amaral is stopped once and for all. Despite his posturing it seems he may have nowhere else to go if this verdict is unfavourable to him...as I expect it to be

Let's hope ?

Who exactly are you speaking for ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 29, 2015, 10:51:42 PM
Where havevthe mccanns or their supporters made an appeal for funds to pay for their legal fees?
By setting up the MFLNSU official website asking for donations to fund searching.

Part of those donations received as a result of that appeal to fund searching were used on the legal costs of obtaining the injunction against Mr Amaral (source: CH = Companies House) and also to pay for witnesses to fly out to Lisbon (source: CH).
This was quite reasonably treated as complying with the "searching" objective, the argument was that the book (and film) were preventing searching taking place (source: CH)

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on November 29, 2015, 11:02:58 PM
By setting up the MFLNSU official website asking for donations to fund searching.

Part of those donations received as a result of that appeal to fund searching were used on the legal costs of obtaining the injunction against Mr Amaral (source: CH = Companies House) and also to pay for witnesses to fly out to Lisbon (source: CH).
This was quite reasonably treated as complying with the "searching" objective, the argument was that the book (and film) were preventing searching taking place (source: CH)

And now the Portuguese judge has said the book and documentary didn't harm the search I wonder what will be the justification for using the fund now ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 29, 2015, 11:06:23 PM
And now the Portuguese judge has said the book and documentary didn't harm the search I wonder what will be the justification for using the fund now ?

the Portuguese judge never said the book didn't harm the search...you will find I am 100% right as usual
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on November 29, 2015, 11:11:09 PM
And now the Portuguese judge has said the book and documentary didn't harm the search I wonder what will be the justification for using the fund now ?

How much time had elapsed between the original writ being issued & the judge making her decision? What period of time do you think any decision was based on?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 29, 2015, 11:28:52 PM
And now the Portuguese judge has said the book and documentary didn't harm the search I wonder what will be the justification for using the fund now ?
To be fair IMO the fund is not now financing this legal case.
While they were funding it they stated so clearly (source CH).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 29, 2015, 11:45:38 PM
To be fair IMO the fund is not now financing this legal case.
While they were funding it they stated so clearly (source CH).

Who is fundng it iyo? The fact that the open part of the accounts do not mention it is not really testament is it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on November 29, 2015, 11:47:21 PM
To be fair IMO the fund is not now financing this legal case.
While they were funding it they stated so clearly (source CH).

Did they ? So who do you think was financing their litigation when it wasn't specifically stated that the fund was ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on November 29, 2015, 11:52:04 PM
How much time had elapsed between the original writ being issued & the judge making her decision? What period of time do you think any decision was based on?

The judge said the book had never damaged  the search. Not when the writ was issued, not when their PIs were 'investigating', not when SY took over, never, so yet again I'm not sure what your point is misty
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on November 29, 2015, 11:59:56 PM
The judge said the book had never damaged  the search. Not when the writ was issued, not when their PIs were 'investigating', not when SY took over, never, so yet again I'm not sure what your point is misty

Was her view an overall view of a 5 year period or specifically related to the position regarding the lack of police involvement at the time the writ was issued?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on November 30, 2015, 12:03:30 AM
Was her view an overall view of a 5 year period or specifically related to the position regarding the lack of police involvement at the time the writ was issued?

The lack of police involvement was nothing to do with the book misty so I'm not entirely sure what you mean.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on November 30, 2015, 12:14:52 AM
The lack of police involvement was nothing to do with the book misty so I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

Did the book not epitomise why there was a lack of police involvement at that particular time & thus emphasize why further searching would prove fruitless?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on November 30, 2015, 12:28:33 AM
Did the book not epitomise why there was a lack of police involvement at that particular time & thus emphasize why further searching would prove fruitless?

There was a lack of police involvement because the case was archived which had nothing to do with the book or Amaral. I'm f that was the case then Rebelo would be just as culpable.

I think you've got things a little mixed up in your head misty. The judge stated that the book had not damaged the search AT ALL, not simply when the writ was issued. I think you may have to go back to the trial transcripts and read them again as you seem to be rather confused.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on November 30, 2015, 01:01:58 AM
Did they ?
Yes I already gave an example where they clearly stated they were paying
"... we have ... continued to pay for legal representation ... to obtain an injunction banning Mr Amaral from ..." (source: accounts for year 2009-2010 you can read at CH site)
So who do you think was financing their litigation when it wasn't specifically stated that the fund was ?
I don't know who is paying now.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 30, 2015, 08:11:26 AM
There was a lack of police involvement because the case was archived which had nothing to do with the book or Amaral. I'm f that was the case then Rebelo would be just as culpable.

I think you've got things a little mixed up in your head misty. The judge stated that the book had not damaged the search AT ALL, not simply when the writ was issued. I think you may have to go back to the trial transcripts and read them again as you seem to be rather confused.
I believe the actual wording was NOT PROVEN, rather than a categorical rejection that the book had damaged the search.  No doubt you will correct me if I'm wrong....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 30, 2015, 08:17:35 AM
Yes I already gave an example where they clearly stated they were paying
"... we have ... continued to pay for legal representation ... to obtain an injunction banning Mr Amaral from ..." (source: accounts for year 2009-2010 you can read at CH site)I don't know who is paying now.

For the financial year March 2013- March 2014 they paid £ 13,256 for hotels, subsistence and travel. The directors say this was for witnesses to attend the trial in Portugal. The expenditure is justified because 'Amaral's book and video caused vast damage to the search for Madeleine in Portugal'. There was an amount of £ 8,402 for legal fees and expenses which could also relate to the trial, but it doesn't say so.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id501.html
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on November 30, 2015, 08:17:56 AM
Yes I already gave an example where they clearly stated they were paying
"... we have ... continued to pay for legal representation ... to obtain an injunction banning Mr Amaral from ..." (source: accounts for year 2009-2010 you can read at CH site)I don't know who is paying now.

Your concern over how the McCanns are going to pay their lawyers is very touching.  So let me reassure you that you really do not need to worry. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 30, 2015, 08:22:27 AM
For the financial year March 2013- March 2014 they paid £ 13,256 for hotels, subsistence and travel. The directors say this was for witnesses to attend the trial in Portugal. The expenditure is justified because 'Amaral's book and video caused vast damage to the search for Madeleine in Portugal'. There was an amount of £ 8,402 for legal fees and expenses which could also relate to the trial, but it doesn't say so.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id501.html

the fund is none of your business
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on November 30, 2015, 08:28:08 AM
the fund is none of your business

Not strictly correct.  The fund is in the form of a limited company, and as such members of the public have a legitimate concern as to the financial results as reported.

But it is the responsibility of the directors to run the company, and report accordingly.  Members of the public have no say in this, unless they are shareholders or directors.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 30, 2015, 08:28:23 AM
Your concern over how the McCanns are going to pay their lawyers is very touching.  So let me reassure you that you really do not need to worry.

How would you know ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 30, 2015, 08:28:54 AM
the McCcanns have raised this money....Kates book...the libel payouts. there is a lot of talk about freedom on this forum and it seems that's all it is...talk. its up to the mccanns how they spend the fund...as long as they keep within the aims...either mind your own business or inform the relevant authorities
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 30, 2015, 08:31:33 AM
the McCcanns have raised this money....Kates book...the libel payouts. there is a lot of talk about freedom on this forum and it seems that's all it is...talk. its up to the mccanns how they spend the fund...as long as they keep within the aims...either mind your own business or inform the relevant authorities


They have raised this money ?

Interesting choice of terms, since their behaviour is the reason this case came to the public attention.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 30, 2015, 08:31:40 AM
Not strictly correct.  The fund is in the form of a limited company, and as such members of the public have a legitimate concern as to the financial results as reported.

But it is the responsibility of the directors to run the company, and report accordingly.  Members of the public have no say in this, unless they are shareholders or directors.

it is no business of anyone on here...I run a ltd company....that's no ones business either
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 30, 2015, 08:41:52 AM
For reference purposes.


https://www.gov.uk/running-a-limited-company
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 30, 2015, 08:56:59 AM
it is no business of anyone on here...I run a ltd company....that's no ones business either

Accounts filed at Company's House are available to the public. Anyone can download, read and comment on them. It's the price you pay for limited liability. To keep your accounts private you have to be a sole trader or partnership and accept liability in full.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 30, 2015, 09:10:22 AM
Accounts filed at Company's House are available to the public. Anyone can download, read and comment on them. It's the price you pay for limited liability. To keep your accounts private you have to be a sole trader or partnership and accept liability in full.

still doesn't make it any of your business...but you seem to have delved deep into their lives....quite unnatural in my opinion
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 30, 2015, 09:18:56 AM
still doesn't make it any of your business...but you seem to have delved deep into their lives....quite unnatural in my opinion

Yet you are doing exactly the same. 8(>((
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 30, 2015, 09:22:07 AM
Yet you are doing exactly the same. 8(>((

no I'm not...gunit has told me a lot about kate's registration and experience that I have never seen before...how did gunit know kate had not done 3 yrs GP training....very odd
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 30, 2015, 09:30:29 AM
the McCcanns have raised this money....Kates book...the libel payouts. there is a lot of talk about freedom on this forum and it seems that's all it is...talk. its up to the mccanns how they spend the fund...as long as they keep within the aims...either mind your own business or inform the relevant authorities

Once the money is in "The Fund's" bank account it belongs to the limited company. Consequently it is the responsibility of the company directors how the funds are used. Drs McCann are but two of the directors and could conceivably be outvoted by the rest.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 30, 2015, 09:31:15 AM
Once the money is in "The Fund's" bank account it belongs to the limited company. Consequently it is the responsibility of the company directors how the funds are used. Drs McCann are but two of the directors and could conceivably be outvoted by the rest.

have they been outvoted
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 30, 2015, 09:32:20 AM
it is no business of anyone on here...I run a ltd company....that's no ones business either

I would love to be a fly on the wall when you tried to tell The Registrar that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 30, 2015, 09:34:05 AM
have they been outvoted

That does not address the issue.
It is up to the board of directors NOT the McCanns.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 30, 2015, 09:34:54 AM
I would love to be a fly on the wall when you tried to tell The Registrar that.

so I need to say no ones business on here....as long as I stick to the rules it is no ones business...what I see on here is a lot of interfering busybodies
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 30, 2015, 09:35:54 AM
That does not address the issue.
It is up to the board of directors NOT the McCanns.

of course it is...so why are posters on here only criticising the mccanns and not the other directors
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 30, 2015, 09:50:28 AM
of course it is...so why are posters on here only criticising the mccanns and not the other directors

You posted it is up the McCanns how The Fund money is spent.
I was pointing out you were wrong to make that assertion. It is the responsibility of the board of of directors collectively not just two of them.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on November 30, 2015, 09:56:56 AM
I believe the actual wording was NOT PROVEN, rather than a categorical rejection that the book had damaged the search.  No doubt you will correct me if I'm wrong....

If it could have been proven the McCanns would have proved it, surely ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 30, 2015, 09:57:05 AM
so I need to say no ones business on here....as long as I stick to the rules it is no ones business...what I see on here is a lot of interfering busybodies

It is the business of The Registrar period. He has the authority to check up on you. If you are running a limited company, as you say, I would suggest it might be in your interests to determine precisely what your responsibilities and liabilities are before you get much older.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 30, 2015, 09:59:39 AM
If it could have been proven the McCanns would have proved it, surely ?
It does make one wonder what the difference is in practical terms.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 30, 2015, 10:03:08 AM
It does make one wonder what the difference is in practical terms.
As you are something of a pedant when it comes to the written word (particularly when that word is written by a member of the McCann supporter community) surely you can see that there is some practical difference between the following two assertions:

The judge stated that the book had not damaged the search AT ALL

The judge stated that damage to the search caused by the book was UNPROVEN.



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on November 30, 2015, 10:14:22 AM
If it could have been proven the McCanns would have proved it, surely ?

I never thought the McCanns would be able to prove that part of their claim - as even if enormous damage was done - how could it be quantified?

However it was 'not proven' and therefore the situation remains the same - i.e. that no-one knows whether it caused damage or not   - which is not the same as the claim being made that the Judge said the book had not damaged the search at all.
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 30, 2015, 10:22:16 AM
If it could have been proven the McCanns would have proved it, surely ?

nope...it isn't that simple. It seemed it couldn't be proved that OJ murdered his wife...does that mean he didn't
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 30, 2015, 10:23:57 AM
It is the business of The Registrar period. He has the authority to check up on you. If you are running a limited company, as you say, I would suggest it might be in your interests to determine precisely what your responsibilities and liabilities are before you get much older.

I know exactly what my responsibilities are...I've been doing it long enough..it really isn't rocket science
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 30, 2015, 10:49:51 AM
As you are something of a pedant when it comes to the written word (particularly when that word is written by a member of the McCann supporter community) surely you can see that there is some practical difference between the following two assertions:

The judge stated that the book had not damaged the search AT ALL

The judge stated that damage to the search caused by the book was UNPROVEN.

By jove he's got it!;  I think he's got it.
When I have recovered from the shock I will respond properly.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 30, 2015, 12:44:33 PM
still doesn't make it any of your business...but you seem to have delved deep into their lives....quite unnatural in my opinion

Looking at a company's accounts doesn't involve delving into anyone's lives. It involves looking at the accounts of a limited company which is a legal entity in it's own right, but it's not a person.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 30, 2015, 01:23:37 PM
Looking at a company's accounts doesn't involve delving into anyone's lives. It involves looking at the accounts of a limited company which is a legal entity in it's own right, but it's not a person.

How are you aware Kate didn't complete GP training and doesn't have a licence to practice
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 30, 2015, 02:28:07 PM
How are you aware Kate didn't complete GP training and doesn't have a licence to practice

I used my intelligence and found out using information freely available online to the general public. I expect you, with your superior intelligence, could do the same.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 30, 2015, 02:43:39 PM
I used my intelligence and found out using information freely available online to the general public. I expect you, with your superior intelligence, could do the same.

I find it strange you have delved so deeply into Kates career
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 30, 2015, 02:55:05 PM
I find it strange you have delved so deeply into Kates career

Well bearing in mind your support of the mccanns, and your 'claims' about them, your reply to G-Unit, is peculiar to say the least.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 30, 2015, 02:56:53 PM
Kate is on the GP's register, but not currently licensed to practice, no doubt because she has chosen another career path, but if she were to (choose to!) update her training, no doubt she could resume her medical career.

It's all a question of career choices, nothing else.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 30, 2015, 02:58:51 PM
As you are something of a pedant when it comes to the written word (particularly when that word is written by a member of the McCann supporter community) surely you can see that there is some practical difference between the following two assertions:

The judge stated that the book had not damaged the search AT ALL

The judge stated that damage to the search caused by the book was UNPROVEN.

The words are different but the practical outcome was to toss the claim out. So debate all you like about what she said, her judgement left no doubt what she meant.

The proceedings were about the terms of the writ, which if we are to believe the full judgment did not mention "search".

The issue being judged was :
 “The 3rd claimant [MM] was deprived of the just and appropriate investigation of her disappearance”. For which damages in the sum of five hundred thousand Euro were sought.
The ruling was:
“It was not proven that because of the defendant Goncalo Amaral's statements in the book, the documentary and the interview with the Correio da Manha, the Judicial Police had ceased to collect information and to investigate the disappearance of Madeleine McCann”
The consequence was:
“To fully dismiss the requests, made in the same action, by the claimants MADELEINE MCCANN, SEAN MICHAEL MCCANN and AMELIE EVE MCCANN against the defendant GONCALO AMARAL and of those claims acquit the defendant”. Do not pass go do not collect 700 grand.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on November 30, 2015, 02:59:21 PM
I used my intelligence and found out using information freely available online to the general public. I expect you, with your superior intelligence, could do the same.

I am puzzled too, about who Gunit apparently "knows" that Kate didn't complete her GP training. 

Given that she was listed on the GP Register when it was introduced. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 30, 2015, 02:59:41 PM
Kate is on the GP's register, but not currently licensed to practice, no doubt because she has chosen another career path, but if she were to (choose to!) update her training, no doubt she could resume her medical career.

It's all a question of career choices, nothing else.

How about as a child minder ? 8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on November 30, 2015, 03:00:33 PM
Kate is on the GP's register, but not currently licensed to practice, no doubt because she has chosen another career path, but if she were to (choose to!) update her training, no doubt she could resume her medical career.

It's all a question of career choices, nothing else.

I wouldn't called being unemployed a career path.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 30, 2015, 03:01:19 PM
I wouldn't called being unemployed a career path.

Well, I feel ferryman thinks it is.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 30, 2015, 03:04:46 PM
By jove he's got it!;  I think he's got it.
When I have recovered from the shock I will respond properly.
I got that you're only here to take the piss out of McCann supporters a long time ago - what made you think I only just got it?!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on November 30, 2015, 03:07:22 PM
Well, I feel ferryman thinks it is.

Perhaps it's his chosen 'career path' too?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 30, 2015, 03:09:44 PM
I am puzzled too, about who Gunit apparently "knows" that Kate didn't complete her GP training. 

Given that she was listed on the GP Register when it was introduced.

G-Unit has taken the fact that Kate is not (currently) licensed to practise (true!) as "evidence", even "proof?", (it isn't!) that Kate didn't complete her GP training.

Kate's licence to practise has just lapsed because she has chosen another career path.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on November 30, 2015, 03:13:10 PM
G-Unit has taken the fact that Kate is not (currently) licensed to practise (true!) as "evidence", even "proof?", (it isn't!) that Kate didn't complete her GP training.

Kate's licence to practise has just lapsed because she has chosen another career path.

What career pathos that ferryman ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 30, 2015, 03:13:31 PM
I wouldn't called being unemployed a career path.
Does she sign on then?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 30, 2015, 03:16:01 PM
Perhaps it's his chosen 'career path' too?

Well he does spend it seems the majority of the time defending the McCann's.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on November 30, 2015, 03:16:47 PM
Does she sign on then?

Does she have a job ?

unemployed
ʌnɪmˈplɔɪd,-ɛm-/
adjective
(of a person) without a paid job but available to work.
"I was unemployed for three months"
synonyms:   jobless, out of work, out of a job, not working, between jobs, workless, unwaged, unoccupied, idle; More
(of a thing) not in use.
"you have to put your left foot under the clutch when it is unemployed"
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 30, 2015, 03:19:21 PM
Does she have a job ?
Yes, she is a housewife I believe, who does unpaid voluntary charity work for Missing People in her spare time, when she's not being an author and spear-heading the campaign to get her daughter back.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on November 30, 2015, 03:22:02 PM
Yes, she is a housewife I believe, who does unpaid voluntary charity work for Missing People in her spare time, when she's not being an author and spear-heading the campaign to get her daughter back.

Does she have work that pays her a wage, because if not she is unemployed by any definition of the word ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 30, 2015, 03:23:27 PM
Yes, she is a housewife I believe, who does unpaid voluntary charity work for Missing People in her spare time, when she's not being an author and spear-heading the campaign to get her daughter back.

What campaign would that be.

Nothing is happening.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 30, 2015, 03:24:34 PM
Does she have work that pays her a wage, because if not she is unemployed by any definition of the word ?
So, anyone who doesn't get paid a wage is unemployed are they?  Interesting... So JK Rowling is unemployed then?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 30, 2015, 03:25:45 PM
Unemployment occurs when people are without work and actively seeking work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on November 30, 2015, 03:27:15 PM
What campaign would that be.

Nothing is happening.

Be fair Stephen. Their Facebook page doesn't run itself.......erm sorry scrub that, she doesn't run that either, does she ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on November 30, 2015, 03:28:18 PM
Does she have a job ?

unemployed
ʌnɪmˈplɔɪd,-ɛm-/
adjective
(of a person) without a paid job but available to work.
"I was unemployed for three months"
synonyms:   jobless, out of work, out of a job, not working, between jobs, workless, unwaged, unoccupied, idle; More
(of a thing) not in use.
"you have to put your left foot under the clutch when it is unemployed"

Ambassador for Missing people.

Maybe that was unpaid?

Not sure.

http://opnlp.com/news/kate-mccann-to-launch-nationwide-campaign-to-find-missing-people.php
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 30, 2015, 03:31:02 PM
Be fair Stephen. Their Facebook page doesn't run itself.......erm sorry scrub that, she doesn't run that either, does she ?

Of course not. £4%4£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 30, 2015, 08:08:41 PM
I am puzzled too, about who Gunit apparently "knows" that Kate didn't complete her GP training. 

Given that she was listed on the GP Register when it was introduced.

Locum GP's are required to be on the GP's register. If you can find a three year opportunity for studying between Kate leaving her job as an anesthetist and April 2007 be my guest. Janet Kennedy said she didn't return to work after having Madeleine, then they had a year in Amsterdam, then she had a year off after having the twins in February 2005.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANNET-KENNEDY.htm

Specialist training in general practice - this stage takes around three years to complete and is split between supervised training in a GP practice and working in a hospital. You can specialise in a number of medical fields, including general medicine, paediatrics, cardiology and palliative medicine. - See more at: https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advice/planning/jobprofiles/Pages/doctor-gp.aspx#sthash.ZYHdYj9O.dpuf

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 30, 2015, 08:12:49 PM
Locum GP's are required to be on the GP's register. If you can find a three year opportunity for studying between Kate leaving her job as an anesthetist and April 2007 be my guest. Janet Kennedy said she didn't return to work after having Madeleine, then they had a year in Amsterdam, then she had a year off after having the twins in February 2005.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANNET-KENNEDY.htm

Specialist training in general practice - this stage takes around three years to complete and is split between supervised training in a GP practice and working in a hospital. You can specialise in a number of medical fields, including general medicine, paediatrics, cardiology and palliative medicine. - See more at: https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advice/planning/jobprofiles/Pages/doctor-gp.aspx#sthash.ZYHdYj9O.dpuf

why is any of this important
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on November 30, 2015, 09:20:32 PM
why is any of this important

None of your business!

Sorry, mods, but that's what he tends to say to me.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 30, 2015, 09:28:12 PM
None of your business!

Sorry, mods, but that's what he tends to say to me.

 @)(++(*

I wouldnt worry about the mods, they have Davels number, not yours...he breaks the rules alot of the time, you do not

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 30, 2015, 09:44:36 PM
None of your business!

Sorry, mods, but that's what he tends to say to me.

so its not important
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on November 30, 2015, 09:51:09 PM
so its not important

No, its none of your business and you dont have any license whatsoever to change posters posts meanings
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 30, 2015, 10:05:07 PM
Locum GP's are required to be on the GP's register. If you can find a three year opportunity for studying between Kate leaving her job as an anesthetist and April 2007 be my guest. Janet Kennedy said she didn't return to work after having Madeleine, then they had a year in Amsterdam, then she had a year off after having the twins in February 2005.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANNET-KENNEDY.htm

Specialist training in general practice - this stage takes around three years to complete and is split between supervised training in a GP practice and working in a hospital. You can specialise in a number of medical fields, including general medicine, paediatrics, cardiology and palliative medicine. - See more at: https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advice/planning/jobprofiles/Pages/doctor-gp.aspx#sthash.ZYHdYj9O.dpuf

so you cant think of a reason why this is important...doesn't surprise me at all
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on December 01, 2015, 01:17:58 AM
(snip)... The issue being judged was :
 “The 3rd claimant [MM] was deprived of the just and appropriate investigation of her disappearance”. For which damages in the sum of five hundred thousand Euro were sought.
The ruling was:
“It was not proven that because of the defendant Goncalo Amaral's statements in the book, the documentary and the interview with the Correio da Manha, the Judicial Police had ceased to collect information and to investigate the disappearance of Madeleine McCann”
The consequence was:
“To fully dismiss the requests, made in the same action, by the claimants M... MCCANN, S... MCCANN and A... MCCANN against the defendant G... AMARAL and of those claims acquit the defendant”.
 ...(snip)
Surely you cannot be claiming that those legal proceedings which some supposedly expert paid lawyers initiated on behalf of 3 minors all completely failed?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on December 01, 2015, 01:47:49 AM
Surely you cannot be claiming that those legal proceedings which some supposedly expert paid lawyers initiated on behalf of 3 minors all completely failed?

I wonder what the judge would have decided about the search if that part of the writ had been dealt with back in 2010?
The book was banned.
The book was unbanned.
The book was banned again.
The investigation wasn't proven to be harmed by the book.
Award the parents of the libellous/non-libellous book record damages.
Civil justice -Portuguese style. It's akin to a soap opera.

Had the McCanns not had substantial funds/influence at their disposal, the search for Madeleine would have completely ceased well before the archiving process.
The book, in hindsight, actually did the McCanns a favour. It enabled the world to see what a pig's ear Amaral & his team had made of the original PJ investigation & why the case against the McCanns was based on lies & misrepresentations. It was a massive own goal - unless its true purpose was to prevent any case reaching trial should the perpetrator(s) ever be determined.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 07:32:25 AM
I wonder what the judge would have decided about the search if that part of the writ had been dealt with back in 2010?
The book was banned.
The book was unbanned.
The book was banned again.
The investigation wasn't proven to be harmed by the book.
Award the parents of the libellous/non-libellous book record damages.
Civil justice -Portuguese style. It's akin to a soap opera.

Had the McCanns not had substantial funds/influence at their disposal, the search for Madeleine would have completely ceased well before the archiving process.
The book, in hindsight, actually did the McCanns a favour. It enabled the world to see what a pig's ear Amaral & his team had made of the original PJ investigation & why the case against the McCanns was based on lies & misrepresentations. It was a massive own goal - unless its true purpose was to prevent any case reaching trial should the perpetrator(s) ever be determined.

How wrong can you get.

The investigation was far from perfect, just as the SY one is, in the latter even less so, as it has only looked at avenue.

More people are now aware that the abduction lacks credence, as there is no evidence to back it up.

The succession of 'images' of abductors has become increasingly laughable.

People have seen the mccanns employ incompetents to 'search' for them.

They have also seen a large amount of tax payers money go down the drain.

They have also seen the mccanns claiming leaving children by themselves as exhibiting 'responsible parenting skills'.

What is truly laughable is the mccanns story, their changing and inconsistent accounts, and their pursuit of revenge and money which is quite sickening.

IMHO of couirse.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 01, 2015, 08:18:03 AM
I wonder what the judge would have decided about the search if that part of the writ had been dealt with back in 2010?
The book was banned.
The book was unbanned.
The book was banned again.
The investigation wasn't proven to be harmed by the book.
Award the parents of the libellous/non-libellous book record damages.
Civil justice -Portuguese style. It's akin to a soap opera.

Had the McCanns not had substantial funds/influence at their disposal, the search for Madeleine would have completely ceased well before the archiving process.
The book, in hindsight, actually did the McCanns a favour. It enabled the world to see what a pig's ear Amaral & his team had made of the original PJ investigation & why the case against the McCanns was based on lies & misrepresentations. It was a massive own goal - unless its true purpose was to prevent any case reaching trial should the perpetrator(s) ever be determined.

That's an interesting perspective.

I'm not sure I entirely agree.

Certainly, those (such as you and me) who read the book objectively and properly took away that impression.

Trouble is, I suspect those who simply read the book and believed were (probably) in the majority -- of a huge audience. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on December 01, 2015, 08:54:34 AM
That's an interesting perspective.

I'm not sure I entirely agree.

Certainly, those (such as you and me) who read the book objectively and properly took away that impression.

Trouble is, I suspect those who simply read the book and believed were (probably) in the majority -- of a huge audience.

You don't seem to realise that Amaral's book wasn't significant to many. I was able to spot the McCann's strange reactions and utterances for myself, for example. Even if the book had never been written people would still not believe their story. Even if they win this appeal people will not believe their story.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 01, 2015, 09:04:31 AM
You don't seem to realise that Amaral's book wasn't significant to many. I was able to spot the McCann's strange reactions and utterances for myself, for example. Even if the book had never been written people would still not believe their story. Even if they win this appeal people will not believe their story.

They didn't tell a 'story'. 

They told the truth.

Not (necessarily) the unvarnished truth, because memory is fallible, and their recollection of a complex and fast-moving sequence of events (necessarily and inevitably) is not going to be perfect. 

More, that disparity and imperfection (in recollection of events) will be magnified by translations and re-translations, and by statements taken in reported, rather than verbatim, form ....

But the truth to the best of their ability and the best of their recollection.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 01, 2015, 09:44:39 AM
Surely you cannot be claiming that those legal proceedings which some supposedly expert paid lawyers initiated on behalf of 3 minors all completely failed?

Of course not!
I am only copying and pasting from the judgement details displayed on this very forum. It's up to individuals to bend it to suit their own argument  8(>((
Mind you the terms "dismiss the request" and "acquit the defendant" don't leave much room for manouvre.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 01, 2015, 09:52:13 AM
I wonder what the judge would have decided about the search if that part of the writ had been dealt with back in 2010?
The book was banned.
The book was unbanned.
The book was banned again.
The investigation wasn't proven to be harmed by the book.
Award the parents of the libellous/non-libellous book record damages.
Civil justice -Portuguese style. It's akin to a soap opera.

Had the McCanns not had substantial funds/influence at their disposal, the search for Madeleine would have completely ceased well before the archiving process.
The book, in hindsight, actually did the McCanns a favour. It enabled the world to see what a pig's ear Amaral & his team had made of the original PJ investigation & why the case against the McCanns was based on lies & misrepresentations. It was a massive own goal - unless its true purpose was to prevent any case reaching trial should the perpetrator(s) ever be determined.

It wasn't dealt with in 2010 so why bother wondering ?
"If the dog hadn't stopped running he would have caught the hare"  ?{)(**
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on December 01, 2015, 10:25:22 AM
They didn't tell a 'story'. 

They told the truth.

Not (necessarily) the unvarnished truth, because memory is fallible, and their recollection of a complex and fast-moving sequence of events (necessarily and inevitably) is not going to be perfect. 

More, that disparity and imperfection (in recollection of events) will be magnified by translations and re-translations, and by statements taken in reported, rather than verbatim, form ....

But the truth to the best of their ability and the best of their recollection.

So people's stories are by definition false? I wonder where you got that impression?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 01, 2015, 11:33:00 AM
You don't seem to realise that Amaral's book wasn't significant to many. I was able to spot the McCann's strange reactions and utterances for myself, for example. Even if the book had never been written people would still not believe their story. Even if they win this appeal people will not believe their story.
you are wrong to say people will not believe their story...some will and some won't. We have no way of knowing the numbers but from personal experience their version of events is believed by most poeple
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 11:40:06 AM
you are wrong to say people will not believe their story...some will and some won't. We have no way of knowing the numbers but from personal experience their version of events is believed by most poeple


Well from personal experience I can say that while some people feel sympathy for a missing child, they don't believe their story.

Many others just don't believe them , per se.

Some others don't give a monkeys about this case.

Mind you my father believes them, then again he thinks Tony Blair is an upstanding man and a Socialist.  8(*(
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 01, 2015, 11:52:26 AM

Well from personal experience I can say that while some people feel sympathy for a missing child, they don't believe their story.

Many others just don't believe them , per se.

Some others don't give a monkeys about this case.

Mind you my father believes them, then again he thinks Tony Blair is an upstanding man and a Socialist.  8(*(

very strange...almost without exception everyone I have discussed the case believes maddie was abducted
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 11:56:32 AM
very strange...almost without exception everyone I have discussed the case believes maddie was abducted

Not really dave.

Those I have discussed it with are made aware of the known facts, and what the mccanns did.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 01, 2015, 11:59:01 AM

Well from personal experience I can say that while some people feel sympathy for a missing child, they don't believe their story.

Many others just don't believe them , per se.

Some others don't give a monkeys about this case.

Mind you my father believes them, then again he thinks Tony Blair is an upstanding man and a Socialist.  8(*(

Maybe you need to get out more.  8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 01, 2015, 11:59:11 AM
very strange...almost without exception everyone I have discussed the case believes maddie was abducted

Therefore some believed she wasn't abducted.
How many did you discuss the case with and how many thought she wasn't abducted?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 01, 2015, 12:03:29 PM
Not really dave.

Those I have discussed it with are made aware of the known facts, and what the mccanns did.

now I understand...they doubt the mccanns once you have given them your one sided view of your distorted facts...such as the dogs recovered human remains...now I understand
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 12:04:08 PM
Maybe you need to get out more.  8(0(*

Nah, unlike you you it seems, i do get out, and don't stick my head in the sand. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 12:05:52 PM
now I understand...they doubt the mccanns once you have given them your one sided view of your distorted facts...such as the dogs recovered human remains...now I understand

No dave, I do give them the known FACTS.

Unlike you.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 01, 2015, 12:07:25 PM
No dave, I do give them the known FACTS.

Unlike you.

yes ...as you have already said...the dogs recovered human remains...you give them the facts according to you...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 12:08:43 PM
yes ...as you have already said...the dogs recovered human remains...you give them the facts according to you...

No dave, I didn't tell them that.

You enjoy making things up, just like the mccanns. ?{)(**
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 01, 2015, 12:50:56 PM
No dave, I didn't tell them that.

You enjoy making things up, just like the mccanns. ?{)(**

no...you told us that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 12:57:59 PM
no...you told us that.

No dave, I didn't.

You should stick to the truth dave.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 01, 2015, 01:05:51 PM
No dave, I didn't.

You should stick to the truth dave.

you did ...have you forgotten...there was quite a discussion about it
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on December 01, 2015, 01:11:49 PM
No dave, I do give them the known FACTS.

Unlike you.

You said 'what they did'  now I wonder what you are telling others I can give a guess 'they left their children alone to go drinking'   'they didn't search'    'they were laughing and joking days after Madeleine went missing'   'they had a celebrity life style zooming around the countries,  wallowing in their fame'   etc. etc.    Am I right?

They probably just agreed with you because they were bored silly by your obsession with the McCann's.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 01:17:43 PM
you did ...have you forgotten...there was quite a discussion about it

Wrong dave.


In my discussions with other people, just the known facts.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 01:19:37 PM
You said 'what they did'  now I wonder what you are telling others I can give a guess 'they left their children alone to go drinking'   'they didn't search'    'they were laughing and joking days after Madeleine went missing'   'they had a celebrity life style zooming around the countries,  wallowing in their fame'   etc. etc.    Am I right?

They probably just agreed with you because they were bored silly by your obsession with the McCann's.


Do you enjoy typing childish posts.

As to obsession Lace, that's why you are on here.

P.S. This case is hardly the focal point of my life, unlike you of course.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on December 01, 2015, 01:43:06 PM

Can we please attempt to get back ON TOPIC and leave the personal comment out of posts? Thank You
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 01, 2015, 03:53:10 PM
Wrong dave.


In my discussions with other people, just the known facts.

Not a very long conversation, then. 

"Madeleine is Missing"
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 01, 2015, 04:27:29 PM
Most as in?  are you going to give us ball park figure or is this your version of collating facts?  Most in the world? most in the western hemisphere?. How many people have you spoken to about this case, and what is the actual figure which covers the 'most'= majority.


If the judgement of the "libel trial"*posted on this forum is anywhere near accurate
The judge said the book didn't add anything that was not already in the released files.
She also found the following to be proved facts:
6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].
7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].


* The judge said: "In our view, the issue, in this trial, is the exercise of the right of opinion by the defendant in that context".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 01, 2015, 04:29:49 PM
If the judgement of the "libel trial"*posted on this forum is anywhere near accurate
The judge said the book didn't add anything that was not already in the released files.
She also found the following to be proved facts:
6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].
7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].


* The judge said: "In our view, the issue, in this trial, is the exercise of the right of opinion by the defendant in that context".

Then it is not accurate
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 01, 2015, 04:34:04 PM
Then it is not accurate

Do us all a favour then; get hold of the one you think is accurate and have John post it in lieu of the one he has already posted.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on December 01, 2015, 04:34:24 PM
How wrong can you get.

The investigation was far from perfect, just as the SY one is, in the latter even less so, as it has only looked at avenue.

More people are now aware that the abduction lacks credence, as there is no evidence to back it up.

The succession of 'images' of abductors has become increasingly laughable.

People have seen the mccanns employ incompetents to 'search' for them.

They have also seen a large amount of tax payers money go down the drain.

They have also seen the mccanns claiming leaving children by themselves as exhibiting 'responsible parenting skills'.

What is truly laughable is the mccanns story, their changing and inconsistent accounts, and their pursuit of revenge and money which is quite sickening.

IMHO of couirse.


Any chance of your opinion on the yo-yoing Portuguese civil justice system which can't seem to form any sort of consistent opinion about the contents of the book, its effect on public opinion & its effect on the McCann family?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 01, 2015, 04:35:26 PM
Most as in?  are you going to give us ball park figure or is this your version of collating facts?  Most in the world? most in the western hemisphere?. How many people have you spoken to about this case, and what is the actual figure which covers the 'most'= majority.

Amaral was used as a cash cow a bit like their daughter. they saw a great marketing ploy and grabbed it. no judge has found amaral guilty of telling lies in his book...hmmm funny that.


most as in my personal experience as it says in the post...your post is libellous but no doubt will be allowed to stay
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on December 01, 2015, 04:36:34 PM
Most as in?  are you going to give us ball park figure or is this your version of collating facts?  Most in the world? most in the western hemisphere?. How many people have you spoken to about this case, and what is the actual figure which covers the 'most'= majority.

Amaral was used as a cash cow a bit like their daughter. they saw a great marketing ploy and grabbed it. no judge has found amaral guilty of telling lies in his book...hmmm funny that.

I believe davel said 'there is no way of knowing the numbers'   in his post.

As to cash cow that is exactly what Madeleine was to Amaral.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 01, 2015, 04:38:08 PM
Do us all a favour then; get hold of the one you think is accurate and have John post it in lieu of the one he has already posted.

rather a silly post...as all three statements you have made are not true then it can hardly be an accurate statement of the judgement...it doesn't take much to work that out
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 04:39:36 PM
rather a silly post...as all three statements you have made are not true then it can hardly be an accurate statement of the judgement...it doesn't take much to work that out

It is from the court files, as you well know.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 01, 2015, 04:41:34 PM
It is from the court files, as you well know.

no it isn't
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 04:43:03 PM
no it isn't

Well, prove us wrong.

With unadulterated cites.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 01, 2015, 04:44:32 PM
Well, prove us wrong.

With unadulterated cites.

there is no proof that the dogs detected cadaver odour.......cite Martin Grime
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 01, 2015, 04:46:13 PM
Well, prove us wrong.

With unadulterated cites.

it's from an unofficial translation of the court judgement...fact...no cite needed
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 04:46:50 PM
there is no proof that the dogs detected cadaver odour.......cite Martin Grime

What counts dave is what is in the court documents and not what is swirling around in your head.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2015, 04:47:55 PM
it's from an unofficial translation of the court judgement...fact...no cite needed

 *&*%£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 01, 2015, 04:49:17 PM
rather a silly post...as all three statements you have made are not true then it can hardly be an accurate statement of the judgement...it doesn't take much to work that out

I have only done a copy and paste job from one of John's posts on The Libel Trial Proceedings Thread.
Now is your chance to shine: by implication you have said the translation of the judgement, on this site, is not accurate. Post the one that meets with your approval. That is a simple enough task for a man of your calibre.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 01, 2015, 04:52:20 PM

Any chance of your opinion on the yo-yoing Portuguese civil justice system which can't seem to form any sort of consistent opinion about the contents of the book, its effect on public opinion & its effect on the McCann family?

AND who are you to mock another countries justice system- who do you think you are exactly? What has this justice system ever done to you personally? Or do you just hate because the McCanns tell you to?

...but anyway regards the contents of the book. who are these people who's opinion changed due to the book? name and shame or are you just surmising? 

The affect on th McCann family would have been devastating:
1. if they were guilty they would be horrified to be found out.
2. if they did not hide their daughters body after a claimed accident- they would also be horrified at such an accusation.  either way they were going to be affected.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on December 01, 2015, 05:03:15 PM
AND who are you to mock another countries justice system- who do you think you are exactly? What has this justice system ever done to you personally? Or do you just hate because the McCanns tell you to?

...but anyway regards the contents of the book. who are these people who's opinion changed due to the book? name and shame or are you just surmising? 

The affect on th McCann family would have been devastating:
1. if they were guilty they would be horrified to be found out.
2. if they did not hide their daughters body after a claimed accident- they would also be horrified at such an accusation.  either way they were going to be affected.

I was asking Stephen for an on-topic response to my previous post, rather than his usual ten thousandth plus stock response of "no evidence of abduction etc etc".
Your rudeness has been noted.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 01, 2015, 05:09:30 PM
I have only done a copy and paste job from one of John's posts on The Libel Trial Proceedings Thread.
Now is your chance to shine: by implication you have said the translation of the judgement, on this site, is not accurate. Post the one that meets with your approval. That is a simple enough task for a man of your calibre.

and I have explained exactly why it is not accurate...cadaver odour was never proved
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 01, 2015, 05:13:52 PM
I was asking Stephen for an on-topic response to my previous post, rather than his usual ten thousandth plus stock response of "no evidence of abduction etc etc".
Your rudeness has been noted.

My Rudeness?  You are the one questioning the integrity of another country justice system. and for the ten thousandth plus times please show evidence of said abduction that stephen  is quite right to ask. or is that aslo being 'rude'.

Bad manners asking Kate to answer questions about her missing daughter  is also up their I guess...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 01, 2015, 05:34:03 PM
My Rudeness?  You are the one questioning the integrity of another country justice system. and for the ten thousandth plus times please show evidence of said abduction that stephen  is quite right to ask. or is that aslo being 'rude'.

Bad manners asking Kate to answer questions about her missing daughter  is also up their I guess...

Miss Taken - well it would appear that there is a foundation for critisism of the Portuguese Justice System. 

http://www.algarvedailynews.com/news/4994-portugal-s-justice-system-is-the-slowest-in-europe
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 01, 2015, 05:46:02 PM
and I have explained exactly why it is not accurate...cadaver odour was never proved

The judge would seem to disagree with you.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 01, 2015, 05:49:30 PM
Miss Taken - well it would appear that there is a foundation for critisism of the Portuguese Justice System. 

http://www.algarvedailynews.com/news/4994-portugal-s-justice-system-is-the-slowest-in-europe

Yes you saw it here first...
"A well run and efficient justice system is one of the key parameters that foreign investors look at when deciding where to set up shop. Currently, with Portugal at the very bottom of the list for timely resolution of cases, many will be opting for other EC countries.

but then... maybe the reasons are explained,

"Again, on the plus side the system in Portugal was judged as ‘having independence.’ = no political lobbying?

The ‘Justice in the Union Scoreboard’ showed that in 2013 no judge was transferred to other functions without his or her consent, except due to disciplinary action or reorganisation.  This is used as a sign of health in any justice system.

oh dear fish blown right out of the water.

 So what was this bad, nasty justice system comment about ? were you, Misty or the McCanns GOING TO open up a business in Portugal but didn;t like the independance or the Judges not being shafted if crims do not like them?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 01, 2015, 05:54:07 PM
http://algarvedailynews.com/news/6539-portugal-s-justice-system-is-worse-than-a-year-ago
Portugal's justice system is 'worse than a year ago' 
 

 Created: 31 August 2015
 
   





 
dacruzIn September 2014, the launch of the new CITIUS court case processing system failed spectacularly on take-off and remained inoperable for 44 days, while the media reported on recrimination, back-biting and zero progress in clearing the backlog of cases built up from years of inefficiency and official indifference.

The judicial reform programme, far from reforming anything, turned a poor system into a showcase of what was wrong with Portugal’s antiquated justice delivery system noted already for understaffed courts and slow justice, but now with a computer software that had failed to work and was making things worse, not better.

Many court cases vanished into a cyber black hole, other live cases were designated as pending and the massive backlog of cases rose rather than decreased, causing distress and misery for those citizens waiting for their day in court.

The head of the union of prosecutors today said, "Justice is worse today than a year ago."

In a press conference held today, António Ventinhas, president of the union of prosecutors said of the justice system that the old problems had stayed but new ones have been added with a lack of staff, judges and with a computer system that does notdo what it was supposed to do.

Ventinhas said the resulting chaos after the launch of CITIUS was due to a lack of financial resources, to which he could have added, ‘training and management.’ He did point out that the lack of planning meant that a year later the country still does not have the necessary courts, the required number of judges and the number of staff required to run the system. He added that the money spent on the computer system has not been effective.

For Ventrinhas, the blame lies squarely with the Minister of Justice, Paula Teixeira da Cruz (pictured) whose management skills have been tested to the full and found early on to be lacking.
 
The head of the Bar Association, Elina Fraga, commented that the reform of the judicial map simply has detered citizens from seeing justice and that CITIUS still does not work as it should be working.

More concerning there still is no explanation from the minister for the failure of CITIUS.

A report is promised ‘next month’ but is unlikely to be published before the general election on October 4th. One of the reasons for the delay in the report is that the Minister of Justice did not commission it until a full eight months after the failure of the computer system for which she resolutely refused to take the blame, despite being in charge.

The report anyway will be light on detail as rather conveniently, the CITIUS computer problems preclude a detailed analysis of the judicial reform as no statistical data on pending or completed cases can be pulled from the system.

The justice system is in a mess, those working in it are stressed and lack resources, the public are less able to access the system due to travel and cost constraints, the new computer system failed to work and still does not function as specified, the report into the failure of CITIUS has been delayed by the person responsible and the chances of justice within a plaintiff’s lifetime are as remote as ever, if not more so.

The Minister in charge has the full backing of the Prime Minister.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 01, 2015, 05:56:29 PM
"Portugal's justice system "slow, expensive and difficult to comprehend" "

http://algarvedailynews.com/news/4676-initial-report-on-portugal-s-justice-system-makes-depressing-reading

You can say that again!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on December 01, 2015, 06:01:07 PM
Yes you saw it here first...
"A well run and efficient justice system is one of the key parameters that foreign investors look at when deciding where to set up shop. Currently, with Portugal at the very bottom of the list for timely resolution of cases, many will be opting for other EC countries.

but then... maybe the reasons are explained,

"Again, on the plus side the system in Portugal was judged as ‘having independence.’ = no political lobbying?

The ‘Justice in the Union Scoreboard’ showed that in 2013 no judge was transferred to other functions without his or her consent, except due to disciplinary action or reorganisation.  This is used as a sign of health in any justice system.

oh dear fish blown right out of the water.

 So what was this bad, nasty justice system comment about ? were you, Misty or the McCanns GOING TO open up a business in Portugal but didn;t like the independance or the Judges not being shafted if crims do not like them?


I wasn't aware "inconsistent" had the same definition as "bad, nasty" so clearly my education must be lacking.
Perhaps if would actually address the points in my original post rather than trying to goad me with one of your many profiles the forum would be a better place for it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 01, 2015, 06:02:01 PM
Miss Taken - well it would appear that there is a foundation for critisism of the Portuguese Justice System. 

http://www.algarvedailynews.com/news/4994-portugal-s-justice-system-is-the-slowest-in-europe

The time taken to resolve the civil cases analysed between 2010 and 2012 was so great that the classification for Portugal was almost off the scale with members of the public having to undergo waits of between 900 and 1,100 days before cases were concluded.

The McCanns' dispute with Amaral has certainly exceeded 1,000 days and (according to some) is still unconcluded ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 01, 2015, 06:08:20 PM
http://algarvedailynews.com/news/6539-portugal-s-justice-system-is-worse-than-a-year-ago
Portugal's justice system is 'worse than a year ago' 
 

 Created: 31 August 2015
 
   





 
dacruzIn September 2014, the launch of the new CITIUS court case processing system failed spectacularly on take-off and remained inoperable for 44 days, while the media reported on recrimination, back-biting and zero progress in clearing the backlog of cases built up from years of inefficiency and official indifference.

The judicial reform programme, far from reforming anything, turned a poor system into a showcase of what was wrong with Portugal’s antiquated justice delivery system noted already for understaffed courts and slow justice, but now with a computer software that had failed to work and was making things worse, not better.

Many court cases vanished into a cyber black hole, other live cases were designated as pending and the massive backlog of cases rose rather than decreased, causing distress and misery for those citizens waiting for their day in court.

The head of the union of prosecutors today said, "Justice is worse today than a year ago."

In a press conference held today, António Ventinhas, president of the union of prosecutors said of the justice system that the old problems had stayed but new ones have been added with a lack of staff, judges and with a computer system that does notdo what it was supposed to do.

Ventinhas said the resulting chaos after the launch of CITIUS was due to a lack of financial resources, to which he could have added, ‘training and management.’ He did point out that the lack of planning meant that a year later the country still does not have the necessary courts, the required number of judges and the number of staff required to run the system. He added that the money spent on the computer system has not been effective.

For Ventrinhas, the blame lies squarely with the Minister of Justice, Paula Teixeira da Cruz (pictured) whose management skills have been tested to the full and found early on to be lacking.
 
The head of the Bar Association, Elina Fraga, commented that the reform of the judicial map simply has detered citizens from seeing justice and that CITIUS still does not work as it should be working.

More concerning there still is no explanation from the minister for the failure of CITIUS.

A report is promised ‘next month’ but is unlikely to be published before the general election on October 4th. One of the reasons for the delay in the report is that the Minister of Justice did not commission it until a full eight months after the failure of the computer system for which she resolutely refused to take the blame, despite being in charge.

The report anyway will be light on detail as rather conveniently, the CITIUS computer problems preclude a detailed analysis of the judicial reform as no statistical data on pending or completed cases can be pulled from the system.

The justice system is in a mess, those working in it are stressed and lack resources, the public are less able to access the system due to travel and cost constraints, the new computer system failed to work and still does not function as specified, the report into the failure of CITIUS has been delayed by the person responsible and the chances of justice within a plaintiff’s lifetime are as remote as ever, if not more so.

The Minister in charge has the full backing of the Prime Minister.

The reason being AN IT SYSTEM fail...

" the launch of the new CITIUS court case processing system failed spectacularly on take-off and remained inoperable for 44 days, while the media reported on recrimination, back-biting and zero progress in clearing the backlog of cases built up from years of inefficiency and official indifference".

The same can be said for our own 'justice' system and the NHS partnerships all f***ked; Due to over paid IT staff who have not got A clue.

So there you have it folks... none of this has hampered the search for Maddie OR interfered with the running of Kate N Gerrys  (Illness brought on by a book).

Nice try guys... nice try.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 01, 2015, 06:20:28 PM
The time taken to resolve the civil cases analysed between 2010 and 2012 was so great that the classification for Portugal was almost off the scale with members of the public having to undergo waits of between 900 and 1,100 days before cases were concluded.

The McCanns' dispute with Amaral has certainly exceeded 1,000 days and (according to some) is still unconcluded ....

It has gone to appeal, so of course it is unconcluded....??
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 01, 2015, 06:22:53 PM
It has gone to appeal, so of course it is unconcluded....??

Cases take between 900-1,100 days to conclude (meaning with all appeals heard and a definitive conclusion finally reached).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 01, 2015, 06:24:54 PM
The reason being AN IT SYSTEM fail...

" the launch of the new CITIUS court case processing system failed spectacularly on take-off and remained inoperable for 44 days, while the media reported on recrimination, back-biting and zero progress in clearing the backlog of cases built up from years of inefficiency and official indifference".

The same can be said for our own 'justice' system and the NHS partnerships all f***ked; Due to over paid IT staff who have not got A clue.

So there you have it folks... none of this has hampered the search for Maddie OR interfered with the running of Kate N Gerrys  (Illness brought on by a book).

Nice try guys... nice try.
Yes, the IT system make a poor system worse.  Try reading the article properly. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 01, 2015, 06:39:03 PM
Cases take between 900-1,100 days to conclude (meaning with all appeals heard and a definitive conclusion finally reached).

Well obviously there is something about this case that is taking double the amount of time....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 01, 2015, 06:40:42 PM
Well obviously there is something about this case that is taking double the amount of time....

Amaral's prevarications and delays?

Possibly ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 01, 2015, 06:47:20 PM
Amaral's prevarications and delays?

Possibly ...

Yes of course, or the plaintiffs' trying to strike an out of court settlement...possibly!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 01, 2015, 07:24:43 PM
Yes of course, or the plaintiffs' trying to strike an out of court settlement...possibly!

the majority of civil cases are settled out of court.  Trying to reach agreement without court action is strongly encouraged as it speeds up the process and does not use valuable court time. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 01, 2015, 07:29:35 PM
the majority of civil cases are settled out of court.  Trying to reach agreement without court action is strongly encouraged as it speeds up the process and does not use valuable court time.

But in itself a delaying mechanism, and more so if it fails
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on December 01, 2015, 07:33:41 PM
the majority of civil cases are settled out of court.  Trying to reach agreement without court action is strongly encouraged as it speeds up the process and does not use valuable court time.

That is precisely the course of action recommended by the judge in the case of the action brought against New Order by one of its former band members.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/12025791/Blue-Monday-for-New-Order-as-Peter-Hook-sues-them-for-many-millions-of-pounds.html

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 01, 2015, 07:48:36 PM
That is precisely the course of action recommended by the judge in the case of the action brought against New Order by one of its former band members.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/12025791/Blue-Monday-for-New-Order-as-Peter-Hook-sues-them-for-many-millions-of-pounds.html

And the crux of the question really is, what are the Mccans doing with all the millions they have made and hoping to make....there is no way way they are all being spent directly on "search fees" as Gerald tells the world.....he must think we are all mugs
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 01, 2015, 08:21:58 PM
And the crux of the question really is, what are the Mccans doing with all the millions they have made and hoping to make....there is no way way they are all being spent directly on "search fees" as Gerald tells the world.....he must think we are all mugs

According to last published figures, spent 76% of it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 01, 2015, 08:35:42 PM
According to last published figures, spent 76% of it.

Isn't it great to be able to check on published figures (nearly time for the agitation of the lateness of publication of this year's is it not?)

One thing certain sure ... we won't have any problems worrying about the publication of Mr Amaral's accounts.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 01, 2015, 08:39:00 PM
According to last published figures, spent 76% of it.

That cannot possibly be right, not on any month of sundays!!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 01, 2015, 08:51:38 PM


There was (apparently) a contribution to the Amaral's fund from the Metropolitan Police ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on December 01, 2015, 08:58:07 PM
There was (apparently) a contribution to the Amaral's fund from the Metropolitan Police ...

Probably to cover the cost of this years PJGA Christmas party
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 01, 2015, 09:06:26 PM
That cannot possibly be right, not on any month of sundays!!

Well I didn't want to be too controversial by saying all of the public contributions and then some. About 200 grand some.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 01, 2015, 09:06:40 PM
There was (apparently) a contribution to the Amaral's fund from the Metropolitan Police ...

Oh really? Well do excuse me for not knowing...stil, the comparison between the two funds is nothng but a pantomime  act....at best
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 01, 2015, 09:22:35 PM
Oh really? Well do excuse me for not knowing...stil, the comparison between the two funds is nothng but a pantomime  act....at best

Correct ... one is audited ... the other is not.

The same people who insist on transparency for one are insistent the other remains secretive.  So absolutely no comparison whatsoever.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 01, 2015, 09:25:17 PM
Correct ... one is audited ... the other is not.

The same people who insist on transparency for one are insistent the other remains secretive.  So absolutely no comparison whatsoever.
One NEEDS to be audited, the other doesnt, why does it bother you so  much, millions versus a few thousand, oh i know....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 01, 2015, 09:40:42 PM
One NEEDS to be audited, the other doesnt, why does it bother you so  much, millions versus a few thousand, oh i know....

That sums attitudes up very well indeed.  One has been legally set up to be open and above board ... the other has been set up to be in private hands and as inscrutable as Confucius.

It bothers me not at all ... but arrant hypocrisy should not pass unremarked.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 01, 2015, 09:56:20 PM
That sums attitudes up very well indeed.  One has been legally set up to be open and above board ... the other has been set up to be in private hands and as inscrutable as Confucius.

It bothers me not at all ... but arrant hypocrisy should not pass unremarked.

Even if audited it still remains secret, did you just not GET that bit???
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 01, 2015, 10:30:18 PM
Correct ... one is audited ... the other is not.

The same people who insist on transparency for one are insistent the other remains secretive.  So absolutely no comparison whatsoever.

Well, actually there is an other difference. One party owning a fund due to their negligence in losing their daughter? and claiming to be transparent but isn't; is not the same as another party trying to find the said missing child which the other party lost.  One has the higher  of moral high grounds my dear. ALSO it wasn't Amaral himself who set up his account unlike the party who lost the child.   I bet you are glad I unconfused that for you or in other plain speak.. Is that clear enough!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on December 02, 2015, 12:09:50 PM
Well, actually there is an other difference. One party owning a fund due to their negligence in losing their daughter? and claiming to be transparent but isn't; is not the same as another party trying to find the said missing child which the other party lost.  One has the higher  of moral high grounds my dear. ALSO it wasn't Amaral himself who set up his account unlike the party who lost the child.   I bet you are glad I unconfused that for you or in other plain speak.. Is that clear enough!

The fund was set up because something had to be done with the money people were sending to the McCanns.   They could have just put it into their own private bank account and said thankyou very much.   But they didn't.

IMO the word 'moral' cannot be attributed with any credibility to a corrupt cop with a criminal record to prove it.





Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 02, 2015, 08:47:22 PM
In about a month, I will resurrect this thread again (if it needs resurrecting) to ask what news (if any) there is of Amaral's appeal ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 02, 2015, 08:47:35 PM
my point is that the person who bleats on about his human rights covered up the savage beating of a suspect in police custody...and posters think he is honourable because they do not realise this is true
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 02, 2015, 08:54:49 PM
my point is that the person who bleats on about his human rights covered up the savage beating of a suspect in police custody...and posters think he is honourable because they do not realise this is true

So? do you believe that he is not entitled to fair representation at law because he committed perjury several years ago and has discharged his sentence in that respect ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 02, 2015, 08:57:26 PM
So? do you believe that he is not entitled to fair representation at law because he committed perjury several years ago and has discharged his sentence in that respect ?

absolutely not but I think his supporters should be aware of the true facts of his conviction and the lies told about his actions and his views exposed
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 02, 2015, 09:04:02 PM
absolutely not but I think his supporters should be aware of the true facts of his conviction and the lies told about his actions and his views exposed
So do I . But  that is not necessarily your interpretation of what happened and your posting of same.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 02, 2015, 09:11:46 PM
So do I . But  that is not necessarily your interpretation of what happened and your posting of same.

You will find that it is not my interpretation that is in question but the absolute lies told by amaral supporters
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 02, 2015, 09:15:58 PM
You will find that it is not my interpretation that is in question but the absolute lies told by amaral supporters

There have been lies on both sides dave.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on December 02, 2015, 09:17:47 PM
You will find that it is not my interpretation that is in question but the absolute lies told by amaral supporters

Your outlook on things is quite simplistic sometimes, isn't it? As far as I know there is no-one on this forum who unequivocally supports Amaral.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 02, 2015, 09:18:49 PM
There have been lies on both sides dave.

so you make excuses for the lies....maddies blood found in the hire car with a pefect dna match
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 02, 2015, 09:20:05 PM
so you make excuses for the lies....maddies blood found in the hire car with a pefect dna match

Who is making excuses dave.

Like I said LIES have been told on both sides.

It has become part of the propaganda war.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on December 02, 2015, 09:36:27 PM
are you surprised...do you find it unbelievable

No, just interested in what the post said.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 02, 2015, 09:39:53 PM
In Portugal there is a burden of prove to disprove allegations that lower reputation for them to be libellous.

That's the only difference, UK/Portugal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on December 02, 2015, 09:42:17 PM
In Portugal there is a burden of prove to disprove allegations that lower reputation for them to be libellous.

That's the only difference, UK/Portugal.

A significant difference.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 02, 2015, 09:44:12 PM
You will find that it is not my interpretation that is in question but the absolute lies told by amaral supporters

Perhaps you would be so kind as to enumerate these including appropriate links as required by forum rules.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 02, 2015, 09:46:30 PM
Perhaps you would be so kind as to enumerate these including appropriate links as required by forum rules.

as I said a poster on here claiming amaral had been cleared and his conviction annulled ...a Portuguese poster
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 03, 2015, 07:32:31 AM
Your outlook on things is quite simplistic sometimes, isn't it? As far as I know there is no-one on this forum who unequivocally supports Amaral.

it is you who has a simplistic approach to the evidence....simply interpreting it in a way that supports your view...I have never said anyone unequivocally supports amaral.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on December 03, 2015, 09:33:51 AM
it is you who has a simplistic approach to the evidence....simply interpreting it in a way that supports your view...I have never said anyone unequivocally supports amaral.

You said Amaral supporters told lies. I don't see any Amaral supporters so are you referring to elsewhere on the internet? Where are the lies? Cites?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on December 03, 2015, 10:17:50 AM
You said Amaral supporters told lies. I don't see any Amaral supporters so are you referring to elsewhere on the internet? Where are the lies? Cites?

Davel may be referring to Luz - a Portuguese poster who posted this lie on this forum.

Quote
But you forget that the, now THIN, Inspector and his colleagues have been acquitted, since the murderer of her daughter was found and tried as a liar. And convicted for another 7 moths in prison for that.
If there was no crime how could he and his colleagues be culpable?!!! Only in your tiny thinny heads.
ReplyQuoteNotify
Unquote

IIRC Requests for confirmation that Amaral had been acquitted - and his sentence quashed - went unanswered.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 03, 2015, 10:29:01 AM
as I said a poster on here claiming amaral had been cleared and his conviction annulled ...a Portuguese poster

We seem to have gone from the plural you posted originally down to a singular?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 03, 2015, 10:38:06 AM
Davel may be referring to Luz - a Portuguese poster who posted this lie on this forum.

Quote
But you forget that the, now THIN, Inspector and his colleagues have been acquitted, since the murderer of her daughter was found and tried as a liar. And convicted for another 7 moths in prison for that.
If there was no crime how could he and his colleagues be culpable?!!! Only in your tiny thinny heads.
ReplyQuoteNotify
Unquote

IIRC Requests for confirmation that Amaral had been acquitted - and his sentence quashed - went unanswered.

I am referring to Luz.....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 03, 2015, 10:39:48 AM
We seem to have gone from the plural you posted originally down to a singular?

I'm just giving one example...there are others...but what is the point when the discussion we ahd re the judgement was removed in totality even though there were no abusive posts.....its pointless having any discussion when something like that happens
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 03, 2015, 10:41:32 AM
You said Amaral supporters told lies. I don't see any Amaral supporters so are you referring to elsewhere on the internet? Where are the lies? Cites?

on this forum...member LUZ  around the 9th august 2013...the posts are easy to find..absolute lies
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 03, 2015, 11:31:14 AM
Cobblers.

It is Madeleine and her siblings badly tragedy by the mccanns and no one else.

You are here only to defend the parents, and attack those who don't believe their storytelling.

The Drs McCann are key witnesses in the crime against their daughter.

In common with all witnesses who could be loosely considered to be making a pro McCann affirmation in Madeleine McCann's case they have been subject to ridicule, derision and generally traduced.

Mr Smith's uncorroborated and mistaken identification of Smithman has entered the lexicon as has Eddie's uncorroborated barking in 5A.

Weighed against the volumes of evidence gathered in this case ... these are small substitute for the defamation of the Drs McCann.

This is a matter recognised by the Portuguese courts and it remains to be seen how well or badly Goncalo Amaral's appeal may go ... it seems we will have some time to wait for the answer to that, but in the interim it is recognised world wide that the Drs McCann have won their libel case.

If you type in "libel" in Google translate you will get "difamação" ... which is the word the Portuguese press and bloggers are using in relation to the judgement. (if anyone wants a cite for that just Google it like I did ... some of the blogs are quite interesting and not all one sided)
My reading of that is that it is a situation recognised not only by the world's press but also by the Portuguese press, so it just remains to be seen what the appeal judges make of it all.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on December 03, 2015, 11:45:16 AM
The Drs McCann are key witnesses in the crime against their daughter.

In common with all witnesses who could be loosely considered to be making a pro McCann affirmation in Madeleine McCann's case they have been subject to ridicule, derision and generally traduced.

Mr Smith's uncorroborated and mistaken identification of Smithman has entered the lexicon as has Eddie's uncorroborated barking in 5A.

Weighed against the volumes of evidence gathered in this case ... these are small substitute for the defamation of the Drs McCann.

This is a matter recognised by the Portuguese courts and it remains to be seen how well or badly Goncalo Amaral's appeal may go ... it seems we will have some time to wait for the answer to that, but in the interim it is recognised world wide that the Drs McCann have won their libel case.

If you type in "libel" in Google translate you will get "difamação" ... which is the word the Portuguese press and bloggers are using in relation to the judgement. (if anyone wants a cite for that just Google it like I did ... some of the blogs are quite interesting and not all one sided)
My reading of that is that it is a situation recognised not only by the world's press but also by the Portuguese press, so it just remains to be seen what the appeal judges make of it all.

First question to Amaral after the verdict in: Nova Gente, 15.05.2015, paper edition

''What was your reaction when you found out that the verdict from the court was unfavourable to you in the defamation suit that the McCanns filed against you? ''


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on December 03, 2015, 11:53:08 AM
on this forum...member LUZ  around the 9th august 2013...the posts are easy to find..absolute lies

how is that relevant to present members and present discussions? 

















Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 03, 2015, 01:11:23 PM
The Drs McCann are key witnesses in the crime against their daughter.

In common with all witnesses who could be loosely considered to be making a pro McCann affirmation in Madeleine McCann's case they have been subject to ridicule, derision and generally traduced.

Mr Smith's uncorroborated and mistaken identification of Smithman has entered the lexicon as has Eddie's uncorroborated barking in 5A.

Weighed against the volumes of evidence gathered in this case ... these are small substitute for the defamation of the Drs McCann.

This is a matter recognised by the Portuguese courts and it remains to be seen how well or badly Goncalo Amaral's appeal may go ... it seems we will have some time to wait for the answer to that, but in the interim it is recognised world wide that the Drs McCann have won their libel case.

If you type in "libel" in Google translate you will get "difamação" ... which is the word the Portuguese press and bloggers are using in relation to the judgement. (if anyone wants a cite for that just Google it like I did ... some of the blogs are quite interesting and not all one sided)
My reading of that is that it is a situation recognised not only by the world's press but also by the Portuguese press, so it just remains to be seen what the appeal judges make of it all.

You can type until you are blue in the face, it won'y change the fact that the crime is unknown and SY have found nothing.

As to the mccanns, they and only them are responsible for what happened, until proven otherwise.

As to mccann supporters being victims of abuse. Some of them are quote happy to dish it out, though you of course have frequently denied it happens.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on December 03, 2015, 02:00:24 PM
You can type until you are blue in the face, it won'y change the fact that the crime is unknown and SY have found nothing.

As to the mccanns, they and only them are responsible for what happened, until proven otherwise.

As to mccann supporters being victims of abuse. Some of them are quote happy to dish it out, though you of course have frequently denied it happens.

Are you saying the McCann's are responsible for Madeleine's disappearance Stephen?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 03, 2015, 02:09:39 PM
You can type until you are blue in the face, it won'y change the fact that the crime is unknown and SY have found nothing.

As to the mccanns, they and only them are responsible for what happened, until proven otherwise.

As to mccann supporters being victims of abuse. Some of them are quote happy to dish it out, though you of course have frequently denied it happens.

It may have escaped your notice but this thread is not about your vacuous repetition of "the crime is unknown and SY have found nothing".
In the first instance Scotland Yard and the Policia Judiciaria have decided 'the crime' is abduction ... and you ma dame do not have a scooby about the SY investigation.  Which makes it very silly to pontificate.

The thread actually concerns Mr Amaral's libel or defamation of the Drs McCann for which they raised an action in the Portuguese courts.
The Drs McCann have won their case and have had damages awarded to them.

Mr Amaral has raised an appeal (he is appealing the judgement because he lost the difamação case) ... which we think may be against the amount awarded.  Or who knows? 

However it appears his (famous) hat may be on a very shaky peg ... it is proven in a Portuguese court that he has denied the Drs McCann their human rights, which may rather impede his further progress to the European Court to uphold his.

By the way ... I did not refer to "McCann supporters" in my post.  My referral was to independent witnesses being ridiculed because their testament doesn't fit the thesis.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 03, 2015, 02:34:34 PM
It may have escaped your notice but this thread is not about your vacuous repetition of "the crime is unknown and SY have found nothing".
In the first instance Scotland Yard and the Policia Judiciaria have decided 'the crime' is abduction ... and you ma dame do not have a scooby about the SY investigation.  Which makes it very silly to pontificate.

The thread actually concerns Mr Amaral's libel or defamation of the Drs McCann for which they raised an action in the Portuguese courts.
The Drs McCann have won their case and have had damages awarded to them.

Mr Amaral has raised an appeal (he is appealing the judgement because he lost the difamação case) ... which we think may be against the amount awarded.  Or who knows? 

However it appears his (famous) hat may be on a very shaky peg ... it is proven in a Portuguese court that he has denied the Drs McCann their human rights, which may rather impede his further progress to the European Court to uphold his.

By the way ... I did not refer to "McCann supporters" in my post.  My referral was to independent witnesses being ridiculed because their testament doesn't fit the thesis.

The vacuous realm is yours.

Type as much as you like.

It means nothing.

As to denying the mccanns their human rights , what about Madeleine's, which the mccanns clearly ignored..
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 03, 2015, 02:37:37 PM
Are you saying the McCann's are responsible for Madeleine's disappearance Stephen?

Would she have disappeared if they were there taking care of her and her siblings ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on December 03, 2015, 02:43:45 PM
Would she have disappeared if they were there taking care of her and her siblings ?

Who knows,  children have been taken from their bed whilst the parents were in their bedroom.   Indeed children had been assaulted in their beds in the are where the McCann's were staying,  it would have been just as easy for the abductor to have taken one of those children.

The thing is,  in the statement regarding the McCann's leaving the children,  it stated that they could not and were not expected to foresee the outcome and that there was no 'intent'.

You don't believe an abduction,  but the person I believe to be responsible is the abductor.  Whether the children were left alone with the door open,  this person had no right to go in and take Madeleine.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 03, 2015, 02:45:15 PM
how is that relevant to present members and present discussions?

if you follow the thread back you will understand
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 03, 2015, 02:49:24 PM
Who knows,  children have been taken from their bed whilst the parents were in their bedroom.   Indeed children had been assaulted in their beds in the are where the McCann's were staying,  it would have been just as easy for the abductor to have taken one of those children.

The thing is,  in the statement regarding the McCann's leaving the children,  it stated that they could not and were not expected to foresee the outcome and that there was no 'intent'.

You don't believe an abduction,  but the person I believe to be responsible is the abductor.  Whether the children were left alone with the door open,  this person had no right to go in and take Madeleine.


I predicted SY would find nothing and that is how it remains.

So I ask you, what evidence is there of abduction that can't be explained by other possibilities ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Anna on December 03, 2015, 03:21:02 PM
Please stay with the topic


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 03, 2015, 03:23:27 PM

I predicted SY would find nothing and that is how it remains.

So I ask you, what evidence is there of abduction that can't be explained by other possibilities ?

they have found enough to say the mccanns are not suspects
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 03, 2015, 03:40:07 PM
they have found enough to say the mccanns are not suspects

Clever that.

Didn't know the crime.

 8)-)))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on December 03, 2015, 04:06:52 PM

TOPIC.  No more warnings.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 04, 2015, 10:26:31 PM
they have found enough to say the mccanns are not suspects

Cite for that categorical descriptive  statement?


Oh hang on, my apologies, it is off topic, but then again your post remains in here so presumably  it is not off topic, or is it? Confusing hey?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 05, 2015, 01:21:30 AM
Cite for that categorical descriptive  statement?


Oh hang on, my apologies, it is off topic, but then again your post remains in here so presumably  it is not off topic, or is it? Confusing hey?

It is entirely on-topic, because if the McCanns are not suspects (they are not!) and Amaral wrote a book saying the McCannsdunsomethingdreadfultoMadeleineandcovereditup (he did!) then what is the basis of Amaral's appeal (in the libel trial, concluded in April)?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 05, 2015, 12:23:47 PM
It is entirely on-topic, because if the McCanns are not suspects (they are not!) and Amaral wrote a book saying the McCannsdunsomethingdreadfultoMadeleineandcovereditup (he did!) then what is the basis of Amaral's appeal (in the libel trial, concluded in April)?

He could appeal against the judgement or the sentence.
As the sentence is automatic from the judgment ie the restoration of equity ie he has taken from him any monies earned as a result of his "crime" then it would follow he has appealed against the judgement.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 05, 2015, 08:48:04 PM
It is entirely on-topic, because if the McCanns are not suspects (they are not!) and Amaral wrote a book saying the McCannsdunsomethingdreadfultoMadeleineandcovereditup (he did!) then what is the basis of Amaral's appeal (in the libel trial, concluded in April)?

They were declared not to be persons of interest in a specifc context at a specific time, fed up of typng it....never  that SY have cleared them...totally different ballpark...as for Amarals appeal, and the ciurt case,  it has absolutely zilch, nada, zero to what Redwood said, to think so is to be livng on cloud cuckoo land
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 05, 2015, 09:09:53 PM
They were declared not to be persons of interest in a specifc context at a specific time, fed up of typng it....never  that SY have cleared them...totally different ballpark...as for Amarals appeal, and the ciurt case,  it has absolutely zilch, nada, zero to what Redwood said, to think so is to be livng on cloud cuckoo land

Indeed they are not persons of interest.  However it is worthwhile quoting the whole sentence just for the sake of total clarity and accuracy ...

“Neither her parents or any of the members of the group that were with her are either persons of interest or suspects”  ~ DCI Andy Redwood
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 05, 2015, 09:14:36 PM
Indeed they are not persons of interest.  However it is worthwhile quoting the whole sentence just for the sake of total clarity and accuracy ...

“Neither her parents or any of the members of the group that were with her are either persons of interest or suspects”  ~ DCI Andy Redwood

You changed the meanng of my post as well as choosing to ignore it


 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 05, 2015, 09:22:25 PM
You changed the meanng of my post as well as choosing to ignore it


 @)(++(*

You said something about the McCanns not being cleared, which is perfectly true.

The McCanns were never charged with anything, and hence don't need to be 'cleared' ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 05, 2015, 09:26:59 PM
You said something about the McCanns not being cleared, which is perfectly true.

The McCanns were never charged with anything, and hence don't need to be 'cleared' ....

You and others have posted several times they have been exonerated/cleared, so bit late for the semantics/backtracking

And


Suspect status is a volatile business
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 05, 2015, 10:36:05 PM
You and others have posted several times they have been exonerated/cleared, so bit late for the semantics/backtracking

And


Suspect status is a volatile business

Not since Jean-Pierre corrected me that to be 'exonerated' you first have to be charged.

I took on board the legal correction ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 05, 2015, 11:01:02 PM
Not since Jean-Pierre corrected me that to be 'exonerated' you first have to be charged.

I took on board the legal correction ....
always wondered why you and others were
concerned about legal matters when they were never topics of discussion
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 05, 2015, 11:07:21 PM
always wondered why you and others were
concerned about legal matters when they were never topics of discussion

On a thread inviting discussion on the (dubious) contention that Amaral has 'confirmed' he will appeal the libel decision (in favour of the McCanns) to a higher court?

Why would that not be the topic of discussion?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 05, 2015, 11:13:26 PM
On a thread inviting discussion on the (dubious) contention that Amaral has 'confirmed' he will appeal the libel decision (in favour of the McCanns) to a higher court?

Why would that not be the topic of discussion?

Oh my apologies then.I WAS referring to people turninvg  discussions of the  case in generl to a legal one when the discussion were nothing about the law which makes me think..the mccanns were afraid of the law


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 06, 2015, 12:02:34 AM
Oh my apologies then.I WAS referring to people turninvg  discussions of the  case in generl to a legal one when the discussion were nothing about the law which makes me think..the mccanns were afraid of the law

Why should the Drs McCann fear the law.  Any legal action they have been forced to take has been justified by a successful track record of favourable judgements.

Mr Amaral on the other hand has an abysmal record in the Portuguese law courts.  He has a criminal conviction.  He has lost civil cases some of which were brought against him and some of which he pursued which is perhaps part and parcel of his parlous financial state when costs awarded against him are considered.

Worth pointing out that it is the McCann success in a Portuguese court which is the subject of his appeal ... which is the subject of this thread.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 06, 2015, 12:14:20 AM
Why should the Drs McCann fear the law.  Any legal action they have been forced to take has been justified by a successful track record of favourable judgements.

Mr Amaral on the other hand has an abysmal record in the Portuguese law courts.  He has a criminal conviction.  He has lost civil cases some of which were brought against him and some of which he pursued which is perhaps part and parcel of his parlous financial state when costs awarded against him are considered.

Worth pointing out that it is the McCann success in a Portuguese court which is the subject of his appeal ... which is the subject of this thread.

You mean having 58% of the claim booted out was successful?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 06, 2015, 12:24:51 AM
Why should the Drs McCann fear the law.

Err

My post  was concerning about talking about the case in general and certain people bringing in the

LAW

If they were not worried about it they  wouldnt have done so!!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 06, 2015, 01:07:08 AM
Err

My post  was concerning about talking about the case in general and certain people bringing in the

LAW

If they were not worried about it they  wouldnt have done so!!

Oh ... I didn't realise you were speaking about the time they were bound by the Portuguese official secrecy law the breaking of which has a two year jail sentence as a consequence.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 06, 2015, 01:12:45 AM
You mean having 58% of the claim booted out was successful?

Successful enough to be recognised worldwide as a victory in the Drs McCann libel action and successful enough to force Mr Amaral to appeal it if he wishes to keep hold of the money he made out of writing about the case of a missing child which was botched from start to finish on his watch.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 06, 2015, 01:15:07 AM
Oh ... I didn't realise you were speaking about the time they were bound by the Portuguese official secrecy law the breaking of which has a two year jail sentence as a consequence.

You have lost the plot.......do read back and find it

The law seems to be a thorn in their  THEIR side,and from the start,  no one on the internet discussing a child missing  mystery had that on their minds, hmmmm...interesting isnt it
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 06, 2015, 12:01:30 PM
Successful enough to be recognised worldwide as a victory in the Drs McCann libel action and successful enough to force Mr Amaral to appeal it if he wishes to keep hold of the money he made out of writing about the case of a missing child which was botched from start to finish on his watch.

Maybe you had better let us know the definition of "worldwide" upon which you rely in this instance.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 06, 2015, 02:01:05 PM
Maybe you had better let us know the definition of "worldwide" upon which you rely in this instance.


It certainly does appear that not only do you have a particular difficulty with 'worldwide' you are unfamiliar with 'difamação' which translates as libel and features in the Portuguese press discussing the judgement against Mr Amaral and his subsequent appeal against it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 06, 2015, 02:05:14 PM
You mean having 58% of the claim booted out was successful?
If having 58% of the claim booted out resulting in record damages of nearly £400k is not deemed a success in your book, it doesn't follow that everyone else (including the McCanns) would view this result as anything less than a positive result.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 06, 2015, 02:39:52 PM

It certainly does appear that not only do you have a particular difficulty with 'worldwide' you are unfamiliar with 'difamação' which translates as libel and features in the Portuguese press discussing the judgement against Mr Amaral and his subsequent appeal against it.

So you believe that the populations of China and the Indian subcontinent have an active interest in this case and  report upon it assiduously in their media?

Wasn't "difamação" a jazz number written and played by Horace Silver and his quintet ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 06, 2015, 02:46:45 PM
So you believe that the populations of China and the Indian subcontinent have an active interest in this case and  report upon it assiduously in their media?

Wasn't "difamação" a jazz number written and played by Horace Silver and his quintet ?
Worldwide doesn't mean the entire world's population last time I looked.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 06, 2015, 02:49:58 PM
If having 58% of the claim booted out resulting in record damages of nearly £400k is not deemed a success in your book, it doesn't follow that everyone else (including the McCanns) would view this result as anything less than a positive result.

Were it my claim, which it isn't of course, my view would be so far so good. Given that the potential return will exceed my outlay if the appeal court do not uphold the appeal. But then I am just a mercenary old git who believes claims like this are mostly about money. One can measure it up the totem pole as it were.
The record damages are a function of the sales of Sr Amaral's book. If you read the judgement it was about restoring equity.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 06, 2015, 02:52:50 PM
Were it my claim, which it isn't of course, my view would be so far so good. Given that the potential return will exceed my outlay if the appeal court do not uphold the appeal. But then I am just a mercenary old git who believes claims like this are mostly about money. One can measure it up the totem pole as it were.
The record damages are a function of the sales of Sr Amaral's book. If you read the judgement it was about restoring equity.

were it my claim I would be more than happy with the result....the judge also highlighted the McCanns right to be declared innocent
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 06, 2015, 02:58:22 PM
were it my claim I would be more than happy with the result....the judge also highlighted the McCanns right to be declared innocent

Were you working for me and submitted a claim for £1.2MM and came back with 400k telling me it was a brilliant result you would be looking for a new job.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 06, 2015, 03:00:35 PM
Were you working for me and submitted a claim for £1.2MM and came back with 400k telling me it was a brilliant result you would be looking for a new job.
It's all about the money, money, money for you though, innit bruv?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on December 06, 2015, 03:27:27 PM
It's all about the money, money, money for you though, innit bruv?

You said it buster !
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 06, 2015, 04:00:27 PM
You said it buster !
So you agree that Alice is only interested in the money?  OK - fair enough.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 06, 2015, 04:23:32 PM
It's all about the money, money, money for you though, innit bruv?

When damages are being sought as compensation what other way is there of judging success other than the quantum of the award ?
Claims against G & P, TVI and whoever were dismissed. Claims for £700k were dismissed leaving £400k in the pot subject to appeal. Winner of the appeals scoops the pot. That hasn't happened yet has it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on December 06, 2015, 04:27:22 PM
When damages are being sought as compensation what other way is there of judging success other than the quantum of the award ?
Claims against G & P, TVI and whoever were dismissed. Claims for £700k were dismissed leaving £400k in the pot subject to appeal. Winner of the appeals scoops the pot. That hasn't happened yet has it?

You could be forgiven for thinking that the McCann's lost the fundamental claims in the case but won the money (so far).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 06, 2015, 04:33:40 PM
You could be forgiven for thinking that the McCann's lost the fundamental claims in the case but won the money (so far).

yes I'm sure amaral is chuffed to pieces...the book is also banned...and has amaral been told to shut up as well
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 06, 2015, 04:35:03 PM
When damages are being sought as compensation what other way is there of judging success other than the quantum of the award ?
Claims against G & P, TVI and whoever were dismissed. Claims for £700k were dismissed leaving £400k in the pot subject to appeal. Winner of the appeals scoops the pot. That hasn't happened yet has it?
£400k is a large sum of money by most people's standards.  By Portuguese standards it is an unprecedentedly large damages award. If they had been awarded token damages then I agree it would have not been such a successful outcome, however £400k is not a token by any measure.  But, as far as the McCanns are concerned they have made it clear it's not solely about the money, but about the moral victory over a man they feel has wronged them and their daughter, so in that respect it was a great success.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 06, 2015, 04:35:39 PM
yes I'm sure amaral is chuffed to pieces...the book is also banned...and has amaral been told to shut up as well
yeah, and that as well 8((()*/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 06, 2015, 05:21:03 PM
yeah, and that as well 8((()*/

Too late for that. The book is already out there in Internet land as with the video.

As to his views on the case, easily found.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 06, 2015, 06:04:18 PM
Too late for that. The book is already out there in Internet land as with the video.

As to his views on the case, easily found.

Quite correct ... there is indeed a tremendous amount of absolute rubbish floating around on the internet.  The trick for most discerning users is to avoid it like the plague it is.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 06, 2015, 06:19:22 PM
Quite correct ... there is indeed a tremendous amount of absolute rubbish floating around on the internet.  The trick for most discerning users is to avoid it like the plague it is.

The rule for discerning viewers of all the material on the internet as regards this case, if they are interested, which in reality is probably a very small number now, would be to conclude from both sides, what is fact and what is fiction.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 06, 2015, 06:54:35 PM
£400k is a large sum of money by most people's standards.  By Portuguese standards it is an unprecedentedly large damages award. If they had been awarded token damages then I agree it would have not been such a successful outcome, however £400k is not a token by any measure.  But, as far as the McCanns are concerned they have made it clear it's not solely about the money, but about the moral victory over a man they feel has wronged them and their daughter, so in that respect it was a great success.

You weren't listening Alfred.
The damages are based on restoring equity, according to the judgement. ie the money gained by Sr Amaral as result of his abusing his position as a civil servant when writing the book, has to be returned such that he has not profited from his abuse of position.
Were it a success the claims made for the children would not have been dismissed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 06, 2015, 06:57:32 PM
You weren't listening Alfred.
The damages are based on restoring equity, according to the judgement. ie the money gained by Sr Amaral as result of his abusing his position as a civil servant when writing the book, has to be returned such that he has not profited from his abuse of position.
Were it a success the claims made for the children would not have been dismissed.
If it keeps you quiet then yeah, it was a resounding failure for the McCanns - is that better?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 06, 2015, 08:37:52 PM
If it keeps you quiet then yeah, it was a resounding failure for the McCanns - is that better?

No because it was not a resounding failure either.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 06, 2015, 08:42:16 PM
No because it was not a resounding failure either.


seeing as in Portugal most believe the mccanns are guilty as amaral claimed...according to shining luz who lives there...it is a tremendous result
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 06, 2015, 08:44:00 PM

seeing as in Portugal most believe the mccanns are guilty as amaral claimed...according to shining luz who lives there...it is a tremendous result

They haven't received a penny.

Merely escalating legal bills.

Shame.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 06, 2015, 10:27:46 PM
It was never about the money......it is said


If that were true,

1) why did they wait for it go become a best seller and not want to stop the search harm from day of publication but waited a year
2) why did they claim interest on top of the 1.2 million from 2009


 &%+((£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on December 06, 2015, 10:37:24 PM
They haven't received a penny.
Merely escalating legal bills. ...
Yes legal costs since early 2008 IMO and not a cent to show for it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 06, 2015, 10:50:12 PM
Yes legal costs since early 2008 IMO and not a cent to show for it.

They must know dirt cheap lawyers then as Geryy tells us the vast majority of the fund has gone directly on search fees...exact words
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 06, 2015, 10:56:03 PM
No because it was not a resounding failure either.
Well from now on I'm going to adopt the position that it was a resounding failure just for the joy of having you contradict me. 8)--))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on December 06, 2015, 10:59:59 PM
They must know dirt cheap lawyers then as Geryy tells us the vast majority of the fund has gone directly on search fees...exact words
IMO the preparations (with associated legal costs) to take civil action against Mr Amaral were possibly already being made in the first quarter of 2008.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 06, 2015, 11:05:14 PM
IMO the preperations (with associated legal costs) to take civil action against Mr Amaral were possibly already being made in the first quarter of 2008.

No doubt for vexatious litigants or people who threaten to sue at every opportunity
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on December 06, 2015, 11:22:19 PM
IMO the preparations (with associated legal costs) to take civil action against Mr Amaral were possibly already being made in the first quarter of 2008.

You think someone from the publishers had leaked details of Amaral's draft manuscript at that stage? I'm shocked.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 06, 2015, 11:36:51 PM
Well from now on I'm going to adopt the position that it was a resounding failure just for the joy of having you contradict me. 8)--))

Why not just adopt a position which reflects what it [the judgement] really is ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on December 07, 2015, 12:25:12 AM
You think someone from the publishers had leaked details of Amaral's draft manuscript at that stage? I'm shocked.
No, just interpreting legalese in accounts Misty.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on December 07, 2015, 01:47:50 AM
No, just interpreting legalese in accounts Misty.

How can you make that interpretation from the accounts? Amaral was still a serving officer in the first half of 2008. On what basis would they have been preparing to sue him?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 07, 2015, 08:08:41 AM
Why not just adopt a position which reflects what it [the judgement] really is ?
Because you will argue that white is black and it gets very tedious.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 07, 2015, 09:32:43 AM
Because you will argue that white is black and it gets very tedious.

I think the whole deal is pretty straightforward.
Try this angle:
In no country can a lower court overturn the ruling of a higher court. Once that is accepted things start to drop into place.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 07, 2015, 09:37:25 AM
I think the whole deal is pretty straightforward.
Try this angle:
In no country can a lower court overturn the ruling of a higher court. Once that is accepted things start to drop into place.
Yeah, whatever you say - you're absolutely right, totally agree 100%. 8@??)(
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 07, 2015, 11:10:59 AM
I think the whole deal is pretty straightforward.
Try this angle:
In no country can a lower court overturn the ruling of a higher court. Once that is accepted things start to drop into place.

And that is clearly not happening in this case, is it?

So I cannot see why you even bothered to mention it. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 07, 2015, 11:53:57 AM
And that is clearly not happening in this case, is it?

So I cannot see why you even bothered to mention it.

Fair enough, if you can't see why.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 07, 2015, 12:09:11 PM
Fair enough, if you can't see why.

I assume you are not conflating two different cases.

The ex parte injunction was, and subsequent appeals, was one case.  The supreme court simply overturned the ex parte injunction and restored the status quo. 

The libel trial over Amaral's book, documentary etc was a completely separate case, and the outcome (damages of E 500k, interest no further sales of the book, video etc).   

So there is no question of any ruling being "overturned".

Sorry to burst your bubble. 

   
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 07, 2015, 12:37:43 PM
Mention of "ex-parte" brings Alice out in a cold sweat, for some reason.

No clue why.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 07, 2015, 01:22:53 PM
Mention of "ex-parte" brings Alice out in a cold sweat, for some reason.

No clue why.

To be perfectly honest, it brings me out in palpitations.  Whilst I accept it has its uses, its a device which goes against the whole idea of justice. 

It is at best a short term measure, and no substitute for an actual trial. 

Which is why appeals are often successful.    As in this case. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on December 07, 2015, 01:33:45 PM
The Daily Express has published today on page 21 a clarification regarding the damages trial. I can only write transcript of what the apology stated:

"Amplifications and Clarifications

Gonçalo Amaral -Correction

On the 29 April 2015 we published a headline on the front page which said "Maddy detective did lie about death cover up claim". We would like to make it clear that there was no determination by the court that Mr. Amaral lied. In fact the court ruled that Mr. Amaral had breached the McCanns' right to reputation and ordered him to pay damages to them."
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 07, 2015, 01:59:19 PM
Mention of "ex-parte" brings Alice out in a cold sweat, for some reason.

No clue why.

Not a cold sweat rather fits of laughter at the way it is drawn by some posters like a Colt 45 in a western movie in the belief others don't know what it means. Or maybe Excalibur @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 07, 2015, 02:04:11 PM
I assume you are not conflating two different cases.

The ex parte injunction was, and subsequent appeals, was one case.  The supreme court simply overturned the ex parte injunction and restored the status quo. 

The libel trial over Amaral's book, documentary etc was a completely separate case, and the outcome (damages of E 500k, interest no further sales of the book, video etc).   

So there is no question of any ruling being "overturned".

Sorry to burst your bubble. 

 

That's OK. No problem  8(0(*

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 07, 2015, 02:43:17 PM
The Daily Express has published today on page 21 a clarification regarding the damages trial. I can only write transcript of what the apology stated:

"Amplifications and Clarifications

Gonçalo Amaral -Correction

On the 29 April 2015 we published a headline on the front page which said "Maddy detective did lie about death cover up claim". We would like to make it clear that there was no determination by the court that Mr. Amaral lied. In fact the court ruled that Mr. Amaral had breached the McCanns' right to reputation and ordered him to pay damages to them."

If Sr Amaral did not lie why do you think the court penalised him?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on December 07, 2015, 02:57:37 PM
The Daily Express has published today on page 21 a clarification regarding the damages trial. I can only write transcript of what the apology stated:

"Amplifications and Clarifications

Gonçalo Amaral -Correction

On the 29 April 2015 we published a headline on the front page which said "Maddy detective did lie about death cover up claim". We would like to make it clear that there was no determination by the court that Mr. Amaral lied. In fact the court ruled that Mr. Amaral had breached the McCanns' right to reputation and ordered him to pay damages to them."

Well I never!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 07, 2015, 03:08:15 PM
The Daily Express has published today on page 21 a clarification regarding the damages trial. I can only write transcript of what the apology stated:

"Amplifications and Clarifications

Gonçalo Amaral -Correction

On the 29 April 2015 we published a headline on the front page which said "Maddy detective did lie about death cover up claim". We would like to make it clear that there was no determination by the court that Mr. Amaral lied. In fact the court ruled that Mr. Amaral had breached the McCanns' right to reputation and ordered him to pay damages to them."

That is a good find Montclair.  with the usual "red top" caveat, it is interesting to note that the court ruled on the McCanns right to reputation, which means of course the trial was a defamation one "in this instance Libel".   

And rather gives the lie to those who argue that this was NOT a libel trial. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 07, 2015, 03:22:47 PM
The Daily Express has published today on page 21 a clarification regarding the damages trial. I can only write transcript of what the apology stated:

"Amplifications and Clarifications

Gonçalo Amaral -Correction

On the 29 April 2015 we published a headline on the front page which said "Maddy detective did lie about death cover up claim". We would like to make it clear that there was no determination by the court that Mr. Amaral lied. In fact the court ruled that Mr. Amaral had breached the McCanns' right to reputation and ordered him to pay damages to them."

Easy mistake to make
So it was another case he was found guilty of lying
This one was about libel
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 07, 2015, 03:27:26 PM
I think the whole deal is pretty straightforward.
Try this angle:
In no country can a lower court overturn the ruling of a higher court. Once that is accepted things start to drop into place.

 @)(++(* @)(++(*

Couldn't help it
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 07, 2015, 03:46:37 PM
That is a good find Montclair.  with the usual "red top" caveat, it is interesting to note that the court ruled on the McCanns right to reputation, which means of course the trial was a defamation one "in this instance Libel".   

And rather gives the lie to those who argue that this was NOT a libel trial.

There is no doubt about it in the Portuguese press.  It seems only foreigners posting on fora don't understand why the Drs McCann have been awarded damages.


Justiça portuguesa condena inspetor do caso Madeleine por difamação
Gonçalo Amaral publicou livro onde acusava pais por morte de menina.
Madeleine desapareceu em maio de 2007 de quarto de hotel em Portugal.

Portuguese Justice condemns Madeleine case inspector for defamation
Gonçalo Amaral published book in which he accused parents for girl's death. 
Madeleine disappeared in May 2007 hotel room in Portugal.

http://g1.globo.com/mundo/noticia/2015/04/justica-portuguesa-condena-inspetor-do-caso-madeleine-por-difamacao.htm
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on December 07, 2015, 04:30:06 PM
There is no doubt about it in the Portuguese press.  It seems only foreigners posting on fora don't understand why the Drs McCann have been awarded damages.


Justiça portuguesa condena inspetor do caso Madeleine por difamação
Gonçalo Amaral publicou livro onde acusava pais por morte de menina.
Madeleine desapareceu em maio de 2007 de quarto de hotel em Portugal.

Portuguese Justice condemns Madeleine case inspector for defamation
Gonçalo Amaral published book in which he accused parents for girl's death.
Madeleine disappeared in May 2007 hotel room in Portugal.

http://g1.globo.com/mundo/noticia/2015/04/justica-portuguesa-condena-inspetor-do-caso-madeleine-por-difamacao.htm

Quote
We would like to make it clear that there was no determination by the court that Mr. Amaral lied.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 07, 2015, 04:33:31 PM
If Amaral didn't lie, then he told the truth, yes?  So, it's true that Madeleine died in the apartment is it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 07, 2015, 04:45:38 PM
The judge uses the words "hypothesis" and "thesis" quite liberally when referring to Sr Amaral's book in her judgement.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 07, 2015, 04:48:00 PM
The judge uses the words "hypothesis" and "thesis" quite liberally when referring to Sr Amaral's book in her judgement.
That's as maybe.  Amaral stated it was a fact that Madeleine died in the apartment however.

So, in Portugal I can hypothesise in a best selling book that the Prime Minister is a paedophile and make all sorts of un proven allegations about him / her and not be called a liar can I?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on December 07, 2015, 05:53:38 PM
The newspaper called Amaral a liar but until we know what happened to Madeleine we don't know if he's right or wrong.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 07, 2015, 06:07:30 PM
The newspaper called Amaral a liar but until we know what happened to Madeleine we don't know if he's right or wrong.
If and when it is confirmed that Madeleine was abducted by a stranger will the McCanns be able to sue Amaral for libel (again)?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 07, 2015, 06:11:54 PM
The newspaper called Amaral a liar but until we know what happened to Madeleine we don't know if he's right or wrong.

There is certainly no dispute Amaral is a liar.

Unless information, either hitherto unknown that is unearthed, or known to the present enquiry but not in the public domain, demonstrates otherwise, he is also wrong.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 07, 2015, 06:13:50 PM
If and when it is confirmed that Madeleine was abducted by a stranger will the McCanns be able to sue Amaral for libel (again)?

I would say not.

But by the (il)logic of some on this board, yes ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 07, 2015, 06:31:05 PM



The red top may have got the headline wrong ... then what is new there?

However the determination of the Portuguese court had already been made. 

The ruling concerned the amount of the award to be made to the injured parties ... that it was a substantial one underlines the seriousness of the offence in the judge's opinion.

It will be interesting to find out how the appeal judges will look at it ... if we all live that long. 


Gonçalo Amaral condenado a pagar 500 mil euros ao casal McCann
Gonçalo Amaral ordered to pay 500,000 euros to the couple McCann


**Snip
O ex-inspector da Polícia Judiciária (PJ) Gonçalo Amaral foi condenado a pagar 500 mil euros aos pais de Madeleine McCann, por danos causados com a publicação do livro intitulado "Maddie: A Verdade da Mentira", disse hoje à agência Lusa a advogada do casal britânico.

The former Inspector of Judicial Police (PJ) Gonçalo Amaral was ordered to pay 500,000 euros to the parents of Madeleine McCann, for damages caused by the publication of the book titled "Maddie: The Truth of the Lie", he said today the agency Lusa the lawyer British couple.

**Snip
Além deste pagamento, o tribunal decretou ainda a proibição da venda e de novas edições do livro, proibindo ainda novas edições do DVD, assim como a venda dos direitos de autor do livro e do DVD.

O tribunal já tinha dado como provado que o livro do ex-inspector da PJ Gonçalo Amaral causara danos aos pais de Madeleine McCann.

In addition to this payment, the court also decreed a ban on the sale and new editions of the book, even prohibiting new editions of the DVD, as well as selling copyright book and DVD.

The court had already given as proved that the book of former PJ inspector Gonçalo Amaral had caused damages to the parents of Madeleine McCann.
http://www.sol.pt/noticia/388832/gon%C3%A7alo-amaral-condenado-a-pagar-500-mil-euros-ao-casal-mccann


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 07, 2015, 06:51:54 PM

The red top may have got the headline wrong ... then what is new there?

However the determination of the Portuguese court had already been made. 

The ruling concerned the amount of the award to be made to the injured parties ... that it was a substantial one underlines the seriousness of the offence in the judge's opinion.

It will be interesting to find out how the appeal judges will look at it ... if we all live that long. 


Gonçalo Amaral condenado a pagar 500 mil euros ao casal McCann
Gonçalo Amaral ordered to pay 500,000 euros to the couple McCann


**Snip
O ex-inspector da Polícia Judiciária (PJ) Gonçalo Amaral foi condenado a pagar 500 mil euros aos pais de Madeleine McCann, por danos causados com a publicação do livro intitulado "Maddie: A Verdade da Mentira", disse hoje à agência Lusa a advogada do casal britânico.

The former Inspector of Judicial Police (PJ) Gonçalo Amaral was ordered to pay 500,000 euros to the parents of Madeleine McCann, for damages caused by the publication of the book titled "Maddie: The Truth of the Lie", he said today the agency Lusa the lawyer British couple.

**Snip
Além deste pagamento, o tribunal decretou ainda a proibição da venda e de novas edições do livro, proibindo ainda novas edições do DVD, assim como a venda dos direitos de autor do livro e do DVD.

O tribunal já tinha dado como provado que o livro do ex-inspector da PJ Gonçalo Amaral causara danos aos pais de Madeleine McCann.

In addition to this payment, the court also decreed a ban on the sale and new editions of the book, even prohibiting new editions of the DVD, as well as selling copyright book and DVD.

The court had already given as proved that the book of former PJ inspector Gonçalo Amaral had caused damages to the parents of Madeleine McCann.
http://www.sol.pt/noticia/388832/gon%C3%A7alo-amaral-condenado-a-pagar-500-mil-euros-ao-casal-mccann

All thanks to them exhibiting 'responsible parenting skills' I presume.

Meanwhile the mccanns have not received a penny, but continue to accrue legal bills.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 07, 2015, 06:59:22 PM
All thanks to them exhibiting 'responsible parenting skills' I presume.

Meanwhile the mccanns have not received a penny, but continue to accrue legal bills.

the fact that the judge awarded damages against amaral means the judge felt amaral was the cause of the damage
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 07, 2015, 07:04:39 PM
the fact that the judge awarded damages against amaral means the judge felt amaral was the cause of the damage

Let's try again.

Who's actions led to the disappearance of Madeleine ?

It wasn't Amaral.

Don't bother saying abductor.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 07, 2015, 07:06:00 PM
the fact that the judge awarded damages against amaral means the judge felt amaral was the cause of the damage

Any ideas why she dismissed everything else in writ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 07, 2015, 07:07:31 PM
Any ideas why she dismissed everything else in writ?

nope
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 07, 2015, 07:25:29 PM
Let's try again.

Who's actions led to the disappearance of Madeleine ?

It wasn't Amaral.

Don't bother saying abductor.

damages were awarded by the judge against amaral because the judge felt amaral caused damage
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 07, 2015, 07:40:05 PM
All thanks to them exhibiting 'responsible parenting skills' I presume.

Meanwhile the mccanns have not received a penny, but continue to accrue legal bills.

Is that an admission that the damages awarded to the Drs McCann are because Mr Amaral lost his defence of their libel action?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 07, 2015, 07:44:36 PM
Is that an admission that the damages awarded to the Drs McCann are because Mr Amaral lost his defence of their libel action?

It was the opinion of one judge.

None of this would have happened if the peeps mccann had taken care of their children.

Madeleine suffered the consequences of their actions.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 07, 2015, 07:52:13 PM
damages were awarded by the judge against amaral because the judge felt amaral caused damage

To their reputation, not to "the search" and libel cannot be determinedd can it ? without knowing the truth, which no one seems to, bizarre
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on December 07, 2015, 07:54:43 PM
There is certainly no dispute Amaral is a liar.

Unless information, either hitherto unknown that is unearthed, or known to the present enquiry but not in the public domain, demonstrates otherwise, he is also wrong.

Apparently not, or the newspaper would not have retracted it's statement saying he was. Perhaps you should qualify your post by adding IMO?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 07, 2015, 07:56:29 PM
To their reputation, not to "the search" and libel cannot be determinedd can it ? without knowing the truth, which no one seems to, bizarre

you do not need to determine the truth to determine libel...that's quite basic
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 07, 2015, 07:58:08 PM
you do not need to determine the truth to determine libel...that's quite basic

and what happens if Amaral was correct in saying Madeleine had an accident in the apartment and subsequently died ? 8)-)))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 07, 2015, 08:02:53 PM
you do not need to determine the truth to determine libel...that's quite basic

Oh really? Do explain then ....this is going to be interesting

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 07, 2015, 08:22:53 PM
Oh really? Do explain then ....this is going to be interesting

But firstly, are you suggesting that until Madeleine's fate is determined, the question of the libel of the McCanns by Amaral cannot be settled?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 07, 2015, 08:25:18 PM
Apparently not, or the newspaper would not have retracted it's statement saying he was. Perhaps you should qualify your post by adding IMO?

Why?

You don't seriously think Amaral contradicted and corrected Prior on interpretation of forensics, do you?

And seeing as the American equipment STU100 has a purpose not remotely to do with detecting cadavers, we can definitively rule out that (according to Amaral!) this equipment, that would have confirmed the death of Madeleine, was blocked by customs [and so not used by the enquiry] ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Admin on December 07, 2015, 08:51:28 PM
Lets not stray too far from the topic theme please.

Admin
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 07, 2015, 08:59:39 PM
Lets not stray too far from the topic theme please.

Admin


In (I admit) a roundabout sort of way, it is on-topic, because we are being asked to accept Amaral's word that he has confirmed (ahem) the 'damages' decision to the higher court.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 07, 2015, 09:12:54 PM
But firstly, are you suggesting that until Madeleine's fate is determined, the question of the libel of the McCanns by Amaral cannot be settled?

I am asking how someone can be libelled when libel = defamation by false statements and there is not a benchmark even to start with to determine if those statements are true or false..I am not really that bothered,just curious
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 07, 2015, 09:18:48 PM
I am asking how someone can be libelled when libel = defamation by false statements and there is not a benchmark even to start with to determine if those statements are true or false..I am not really that bothered,just curious

what you are showing is you do not understand the law of libel...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 07, 2015, 09:21:26 PM
what you are showing is you do not understand the law of libel....first you need to check your definition of libel which is wrong

Can you tell me Dave when it was determined how Madeleine disappeared from the apartment.

and no conjecture , by the way.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 07, 2015, 09:22:22 PM
what you are showing is you do not understand the law of libel....first you need to check your definition of libel which is wrong

enlighten us all then instead of just making the thrust of your post "you do not understand...you are wrong" etc etc..
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 07, 2015, 09:22:50 PM
Can you tell me Dave when it was determined how Madeleine disappeared from the apartment.

and no conjecture , by the way.

another one who does not understand the law of libel
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 07, 2015, 09:23:06 PM
I am asking how someone can be libelled when libel = defamation by false statements and there is not a benchmark even to start with to determine if those statements are true or false..I am not really that bothered,just curious

Not a bench-mark?

Compare Amaral's assessment of what Mark Harrison said with his report (for example).

Is that not a bench mark?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 07, 2015, 09:23:56 PM
enlighten us all then instead of just making the thrust of your post "you do not understand...you are wrong" etc etc..

simply...if you accuse the mccanns of covering up Maddie's death...that is libel unless you can prove it is true
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 07, 2015, 09:25:43 PM
another one who does not understand the law of libel

The truth of Madeline's disappearance has not been ascertained.

Meanwhile you will say anything in defence of the McCann's.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 07, 2015, 09:29:35 PM
The truth of Madeline's disappearance has not been ascertained.

Meanwhile you will say anything in defence of the McCann's.

Just as you will say anything in defence of Amaral.

Stalemate.

Until the relative merits of statements made are more carefully considered ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 07, 2015, 09:30:37 PM
The truth of Madeline's disappearance has not been ascertained.

Meanwhile you will say anything in defence of the McCann's.

we are talking about libel...and what it means...the fact that the truth re maddie has not been proved is no defence
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 07, 2015, 09:31:34 PM
Just as you will say anything in defence of Amaral.

Stalemate.

Until the relative merits of statements made are more carefully considered ...

The difference being with me, is that I know Amaral made mistakes.

Now ferryman, what mistakes did the McCann's make ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 07, 2015, 09:32:13 PM
we are talking about libel...and what it means...the fact that the truth re maddie has not been proved is no defence

and what if Madeleine dried in the apartment Dave ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 07, 2015, 09:32:58 PM
The difference being with me, is that I know Amaral made mistakes.

Now ferryman, what mistakes did the McCann's make ?

You first.

What mistakes do you consider Amaral made?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 07, 2015, 09:34:06 PM
and what if Madeleine dried in the apartment Dave ?

we are talking about libel...you obviously don't understand the law
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 07, 2015, 09:35:44 PM
we are talking about libel...you obviously don't understand the law

I understand the law.

I have seen people who have used this tactic of claiming libel to escape justice.

eg.   Jeffrey Archer.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 07, 2015, 09:36:15 PM
and what if Madeleine dried in the apartment Dave ?

What if Amaral's "abductor" (who would then be her murderer) murdered her in the apartment before taking her body away, you mean?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 07, 2015, 09:37:51 PM
simply...if you accuse the mccanns of covering up Maddie's death...that is libel unless you can prove it is true

Oh really? So nothing at all on the plaintiffs to prove it is false? Well well....

In Portugal IIRC it is different......if it is an honestly held opinion it cannot be libel

Let us not forget the crux....it was a hypothesis.....legitimately made by a police force whe job it was go do that very thing...as I said, bizarre
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 07, 2015, 09:38:16 PM
What if Amaral's "abductor" (who would then be her murderer) murdered her in the apartment before taking her body away, you mean?

What abductor ferryman ?

CRIME UNKNOWN.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 07, 2015, 09:40:05 PM
Oh really? So nothing at all on the plaintiffs to prove it is false? Well well....

In Portugal IIRC it is different......if it is an honestly held opinion it cannot be libel

Let us not forget the crux....it was a hypothesis.....legitimately made by a police force whe job it was go do that very thing...as I said, bizarre

I don't think anyone on here really understands Portuguese libel law...you are just repeating gossip basically...it seems  amaral has been judged to have defamed the McCanns
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 07, 2015, 09:51:19 PM
I don't think anyone on here really understands Portuguese libel law...you are just repeating gossip basically...it seems  amaral has been judged to have defamed the McCanns

Which gossip is that then? That I am repeating??

Must leave you to babble for a while, be back soon!!!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 07, 2015, 10:11:18 PM
The Daily Express has published today on page 21 a clarification regarding the damages trial. I can only write transcript of what the apology stated:

"Amplifications and Clarifications

Gonçalo Amaral -Correction

On the 29 April 2015 we published a headline on the front page which said "Maddy detective did lie about death cover up claim". We would like to make it clear that there was no determination by the court that Mr. Amaral lied. In fact the court ruled that Mr. Amaral had breached the McCanns' right to reputation and ordered him to pay damages to them."

this is not a declaration that amaral did not lie.....it is a statement saying there was no determination by the court...he obviously did lie
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 07, 2015, 10:36:35 PM
nope

That is uncommonly reserved of you.
I find it "interesting" that all of the claim was booted out except "damages" awarded to the Drs McCann which were the amount Sr Amaral profited by behaving illicitly with respect to his former employment, some of which obligations carried forward into his retirement.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 07, 2015, 10:56:59 PM
That is uncommonly reserved of you.
I find it "interesting" that all of the claim was booted out except "damages" awarded to the Drs McCann which were the amount Sr Amaral profited by behaving illicitly with respect to his former employment, some of which obligations carried forward into his retirement.

it seems no one really understands Portuguese libel law.....Oxford Bloo seemed to have a decent understanding...before being driven off the forum by the mob....From what he said I don't see amaral has any grounds for a successful appeal
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 07, 2015, 11:11:02 PM
It really is quite simple.

By saying in his book that Madeleine died in the apartment and the McCanns covered it up by hiding her body, Amaral was accusing the McCanns of committing a criminal offence and the McCanns brought an action for libel.

Had he not been a former police officer and coordinator of the investigation, he may have been able to use the defence of honestly held opinion.  (but had he not been a police officer nobody would have taken any notice of his book).

However, he was, and the court quite rightly found against him as far as the McCanns claim was concerned.  And awarded money compensation in respect of their claim, and has also prevented further sales of distribution of the book and video. 

For those who ask how a claim for defamation can succeed until Madeleine's fate is known - under law (and this applies to Portugal and to England) everyone is innocent until proven to be guilty, and you cannot accuse someone of committing a crime without facing consequences.  Amaral did so, and breached their rights to a good name.   

The case in question is quite separate from the case of the ex parte injunction, and subsequent appeals.  Therefore this is not a case of a lower court overturning the judgement of a higher court - it is a different case.

For those who say, well its the opinion of one judge  - it is the opinion of a Portuguese Court.  This cannot be shrugged off lightly by those who are disappointed with the verdict.

We shall, of course, have to see what the verdict of the appeal is.   My opinion is we are entering the end game for Amaral.  But who knows.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 08, 2015, 07:55:07 AM
It really is quite simple.

By saying in his book that Madeleine died in the apartment and the McCanns covered it up by hiding her body, Amaral was accusing the McCanns of committing a criminal offence and the McCanns brought an action for libel.

Had he not been a former police officer and coordinator of the investigation, he may have been able to use the defence of honestly held opinion.  (but had he not been a police officer nobody would have taken any notice of his book).

However, he was, and the court quite rightly found against him as far as the McCanns claim was concerned.  And awarded money compensation in respect of their claim, and has also prevented further sales of distribution of the book and video. 

For those who ask how a claim for defamation can succeed until Madeleine's fate is known - under law (and this applies to Portugal and to England) everyone is innocent until proven to be guilty, and you cannot accuse someone of committing a crime without facing consequences.  Amaral did so, and breached their rights to a good name.   

The case in question is quite separate from the case of the ex parte injunction, and subsequent appeals.  Therefore this is not a case of a lower court overturning the judgement of a higher court - it is a different case.

For those who say, well its the opinion of one judge  - it is the opinion of a Portuguese Court.  This cannot be shrugged off lightly by those who are disappointed with the verdict.

We shall, of course, have to see what the verdict of the appeal is.   My opinion is we are entering the end game for Amaral.  But who knows.

A very good explanation of the libel trial
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 08, 2015, 09:26:17 AM
A very good explanation of the libel trial

I suggest you wait for the result of the appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 08, 2015, 09:28:31 AM
I suggest you wait for the result of the appeal.

you can suggest all you like...makes no difference to me
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 08, 2015, 09:36:02 AM
you can suggest all you like...makes no difference to me

That reply makes no sense.

You regularly comment on his appeal.

So you are clearly concerned.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 08, 2015, 11:39:00 AM
Why did the judge say ?:
"A first conclusion is that if the book is about an hypothetical checking of the facts or about the opinion of the author on how the evidence collected in the investigation should be read, one shouldn't speak of falsehood, untrue facts, and it doesn't make sense, without a better understanding, to discuss the "exceptio veritatis"

Why did she dismiss all claims except that which applied to Sr Amaral's former office and obligations that went with it even after he ceased to hold that office?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 08, 2015, 01:04:59 PM
That reply makes no sense.

You regularly comment on his appeal.

So you are clearly concerned.

it makes perfect sense but you don't understand..I'm not concerned...another false assumption by you...I am interested
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on December 08, 2015, 01:16:56 PM
Why did the judge say ?:
"A first conclusion is that if the book is about an hypothetical checking of the facts or about the opinion of the author on how the evidence collected in the investigation should be read, one shouldn't speak of falsehood, untrue facts, and it doesn't make sense, without a better understanding, to discuss the "exceptio veritatis"

Why did she dismiss all claims except that which applied to Sr Amaral's former office and obligations that went with it even after he ceased to hold that office?

She couldn't prove he lied. He couldn't prove he spoke the truth. We will find out in due course whether her interpretation of the obligations of a retired detective were correct or not.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 08, 2015, 01:26:54 PM
Why did the judge say ?:
"A first conclusion is that if the book is about an hypothetical checking of the facts or about the opinion of the author on how the evidence collected in the investigation should be read, one shouldn't speak of falsehood, untrue facts, and it doesn't make sense, without a better understanding, to discuss the "exceptio veritatis"

Why did she dismiss all claims except that which applied to Sr Amaral's former office and obligations that went with it even after he ceased to hold that office?

She struck out the claims which related to Madeleine, and the twins, as they did not suffer damage to reputation.

She admitted the claims in respect of KM and GM, as they had suffered damage

As I said above, under Portuguese Law, an honestly held belief may be a valid defense against an action for libel as can right to freedom of expression.  However, by virtue of his position as a former police officer, Amaral was obliged to keep his mouth shut.

 
Amaral based his defense on his right to freedom of expression, (art 37, 1 and 2) forgetting both (art 37, 3 and 4) 

If you want to get technical about it, this was resolving the tension between Article 484 of the civil code (Article 484 - Who affirms or spreads a fact capable of harming the credit or good name of any individual or collective person, is liable for damages.) and article 37 of the constitution paragraphs 1 and 2.

And yes Stephen, we will see what the appeal holds. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 08, 2015, 01:40:08 PM
She struck out the claims which related to Madeleine, and the twins, as they did not suffer damage to reputation.

She admitted the claims in respect of KM and GM, as they had suffered damage

As I said above, under Portuguese Law, an honestly held belief may be a valid defense against an action for libel as can right to freedom of expression.  However, by virtue of his position as a former police officer, Amaral was obliged to keep his mouth shut.

 
Amaral based his defense on his right to freedom of expression, (art 37, 1 and 2) forgetting both (art 37, 3 and 4) 

If you want to get technical about it, this was resolving the tension between Article 484 of the civil code (Article 484 - Who affirms or spreads a fact capable of harming the credit or good name of any individual or collective person, is liable for damages.) and article 37 of the constitution paragraphs 1 and 2.

And yes Stephen, we will see what the appeal holds.

The judge also dismissed the claims against the other three defendants.
She also said with specific reference to Sr Amaral:
 "The means of obtaining evidence and the evidence referred to in the book are those of the criminal investigation and most of the facts that the book is concerned with (as well as those referred to in the documentary and interview), when related to the criminal investigation, are mostly facts that occurred or are documented in the investigation (n° 80 of the proved facts).

In our view, the issue, in this trial, is the exercise of the right of opinion by the defendant in that context".

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 08, 2015, 01:48:22 PM
The judge also dismissed the claims against the other three defendants.
She also said with specific reference to Sr Amaral:
 "The means of obtaining evidence and the evidence referred to in the book are those of the criminal investigation and most of the facts that the book is concerned with (as well as those referred to in the documentary and interview), when related to the criminal investigation, are mostly facts that occurred or are documented in the investigation (n° 80 of the proved facts).

In our view, the issue, in this trial, is the exercise of the right of opinion by the defendant in that context".


Did she?  You might want to check your facts on this one. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 08, 2015, 02:06:05 PM
The judge also dismissed the claims against the other three defendants.
She also said with specific reference to Sr Amaral:
 "The means of obtaining evidence and the evidence referred to in the book are those of the criminal investigation and most of the facts that the book is concerned with (as well as those referred to in the documentary and interview), when related to the criminal investigation, are mostly facts that occurred or are documented in the investigation (n° 80 of the proved facts).

In our view, the issue, in this trial, is the exercise of the right of opinion by the defendant in that context".


Might I suggest you go to the original Portuguese source for material for your posts and place no reliance at all on the interpretations you are using. Google translate might not be perfect ... but it does give a fairly reasonable idea which at least enables information right from the horse's mouth.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 08, 2015, 03:53:10 PM
Might I suggest you go to the original Portuguese source for material for your posts and place no reliance at all on the interpretations you are using. Google translate might not be perfect ... but it does give a fairly reasonable idea which at least enables information right from the horse's mouth.

I am looking at both.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 08, 2015, 03:54:22 PM
I am looking at both.

but you are only quoting from one
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 08, 2015, 03:56:14 PM
Did she?  You might want to check your facts on this one.

Well you can always post a translated version of the judgement that meets with your approval so we can see.
I have asked others to do so but they have failed dismally to do so.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 08, 2015, 04:11:04 PM
Well you can always post a translated version of the judgement that meets with your approval so we can see.
I have asked others to do so but they have failed dismally to do so.

You have claimed that all of the claims against the other three defendants have been dismissed.   Can you offer a cite for that?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2015, 04:24:18 PM
She struck out the claims which related to Madeleine, and the twins, as they did not suffer damage to reputation.

She admitted the claims in respect of KM and GM, as they had suffered damage

As I said above, under Portuguese Law, an honestly held belief may be a valid defense against an action for libel as can right to freedom of expression.  However, by virtue of his position as a former police officer, Amaral was obliged to keep his mouth shut.

 
Amaral based his defense on his right to freedom of expression, (art 37, 1 and 2) forgetting both (art 37, 3 and 4) 

If you want to get technical about it, this was resolving the tension between Article 484 of the civil code (Article 484 - Who affirms or spreads a fact capable of harming the credit or good name of any individual or collective person, is liable for damages.) and article 37 of the constitution paragraphs 1 and 2.

And yes Stephen, we will see what the appeal holds.

Interesting.

He may not have libelled Madeleine or the twins.  But he certainly (at the very least heedlessly risked) damaging the twins; also Madeleine (if she is found alive) by straining the relationship of trust between parents and siblings.  |f the twins actually come to think that Mummy and Daddy did something nefarious to their older sister; or even are culpable by neglect for what happened to her (perhaps, actually, more likely).

In that sense, I suppose (at least part of) proceedings could be thought of as a damages trial, with the damages element struck out by the judge, and just libel left ...

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on December 08, 2015, 04:31:35 PM
Is it possible to libel a child, or does the law only apply to adults ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2015, 04:40:25 PM
Is it possible to libel a child, or does the law only apply to adults ?

Interesting question.

Don't see why the law shouldn't apply to children, although the extent of damage to reputation may not be the same as for an adult.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 08, 2015, 05:27:48 PM
Is it possible to libel a child, or does the law only apply to adults ?

I've never really given it much thought before and have no idea what the legal situation might be.  The age of criminal responsibility in Scotland is eight years and in the rest of the UK ten (I think).

However Police Scotland have reported children as young as three for criminal offences, so everything is possible. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-27614288
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 08, 2015, 05:31:56 PM
I've never really given it much thought before and have no idea what the legal situation might be.  The age of criminal responsibility in Scotland is eight years and in the rest of the UK ten (I think).

However Police Scotland have reported children as young as three for criminal offences, so everything is possible. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-27614288

I'm sure you can libel a child...but the twins were not libelled
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 08, 2015, 05:49:39 PM
I'm sure you can libel a child...but the twins were not libelled

If you think about it logically I am sure you must be able to and I agree that no-one libelled the twins ... however I am firmly of the opinion that belief in and promotion of Mr Amaral's theory damaged the search for Madeleine.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2015, 06:12:19 PM
If you think about it logically I am sure you must be able to and I agree that no-one libelled the twins ... however I am firmly of the opinion that belief in and promotion of Mr Amaral's theory damaged the search for Madeleine.

It damaged the search for Madeleine.

But it didn't damage the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance, because the investigation was shelved before the book was made available to the public.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on December 08, 2015, 06:52:08 PM
If you think about it logically I am sure you must be able to and I agree that no-one libelled the twins ... however I am firmly of the opinion that belief in and promotion of Mr Amaral's theory damaged the search for Madeleine.

Opinion means nothing. Not proven.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 08, 2015, 07:18:20 PM
You have claimed that all of the claims against the other three defendants have been dismissed.   Can you offer a cite for that?

Well you can look at the translation on here. If you think like others it is suspect then look at the Portuguese document on Pamalam and translate it on google translate yourself. At the time of the judgement a google translate version was posted on here.
The other three defendants were not ordered to pay out a plug nickel in compensation.
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 08, 2015, 08:11:50 PM
Well you can look at the translation on here. If you think like others it is suspect then look at the Portuguese document on Pamalam and translate it on google translate yourself. At the time of the judgement a google translate version was posted on here.
The other three defendants were not ordered to pay out a plug nickel in compensation.

This one will do fine

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm


McCanns original requests of the court in respect of the other three defendants:

The claimants argued that the 2nd defendant is the publisher of the book "Maddie The Truth of the Lie", the 3rd defendant is the producer of the program / documentary that was broadcast by the 4th TV channel which explores and holds the exclusivity for Portugal .Based on the same facts and grounds they requested :

I. The ban on the sale and order to gather, for destruction , the books and videos "Maddie - The Truth of the Lie" that still remained in bookstores or other retail points, warehouses, naming their mandatory (Dra Duarte) as faithful depository, all defendants having to be notified for that recollection ;
 
Page 05

II. The prohibition to all defendants to implement, even on the Web, new editions of the book or video or other books and/or videos that defend the same thesis and are intended to be commercialised or divulged in Portugal,

III. The prohibition to all defendants to transfer onerously or freely, in any way, the publishing rights or copyright on the book's or the video's contents, or other books and videos about the same theme, to be published anywhere in the world,

IV. The prohibition to all defendants and by any means, including the Web, to cite, analyse or comment, expressed or implied, oral or written, parts of the book or video that defend the thesis of the death of the 3rd claimant or of the concealment of her body, in any part of the world,

V. The prohibition to all defendants and by any means, including the Web, to provide or reproduce comment, opinion or interview where this thesis is defended or could be inferred,

VI. The prohibition to all defendants to transfer, publish and provide statements, photographs or other documentation related to the book, video or the thesis, by any possible means, including the Web,

VI (sic). The sentence for the defendants to publish the convicting judgement, in extract, at their own expense, for two consecutive days, in one of the most widely read newspapers in Portugal and one of the most widely read daily newspapers in the UK and, as well, to publish such a convicting judgement, in extract and only once, in one of the most widely read weekly magazines in Portugal and in the United Kingdom, at the choice of the claimants, in the 15 days immediately following the Res Judicata (1)
VII. The sentence for the defendants to pay a deterrent penalty for the circumstances mentioned of an amount not less than 100.000 € for each act of non-compliance of the prohibitions or of order of seizing the books and videos,

VII (sic). The sentence for the defendants to pay the costs of the trial, including the fees of the claimants'

The judgement of the court:

 V. judge partly proceeding the demands expressed in the attached action by the claimants KATE MARIE HEALY MCCANN and GERALD PATRICK MCCANN against the defendants GONCALO AMARAL, GUERRA&PAZ,EDITORES,SA and VC–VALENTIM DE CARVALHO-FILMES, AUDIOVISUAIS, SA, and to that extent :
a) prohibit the defendants Goncalo Amaral and Guerra&Paz Editores, SA of selling the book Maddie – A Verdade da Mentira and condemn them to collect, for delivery to the claimants, within sixty (60) days after the res judicata (definitive sentence), the copies of this book that still remain in book-stores, other retail outlets, and warehouses.
 
Page 51

b) prohibit the defendants Goncalo Amaral and Guerra&Paz Editores, SA of executing new editions of the same book.

c) prohibit the defendant VC–Valentim de Carvalho-Filmes, Audiovisuais, SA of executing new editions of the DVD Maddie – A Verdade da Mentira,

d) prohibit the defendants Goncalo Amaral, Guerra&Paz Editores, SA and VC–Valentim de Carvalho-Filmes, Audiovisuais, SA, respectively, of transferring, onerously or freely, any form of copyright and rights for book and DVD publication,

e) condemn each of these defendants, to the penalty payment of 50.000 € for each breach of the above prohibitions.

VI. Over the remaining part, dismiss the requests made in the action attached by the claimants KATE MARIE HEALY MACCANN and GERALD PATRICK MACCANN against the defendants GONÇALO AMARAL, GUERRA&PAZ, EDITORES, SA and VC–VALENTIM DE CARVALHO-FILMES, AUDIOVISUAIS, SA and of the same claims acquit the defendants.

VII. Fully dismiss the claims made in the attached action against the defendant TVI-INDEPENDENT TELEVISION, SA, and of those claims acquit the defendant.

__________________






Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 08, 2015, 09:07:04 PM
but you are only quoting from one

Mainly because Google Translate tends to translate into Neo Melanesian* rather than English.

*That's PCspeke for Pidgin
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 08, 2015, 09:19:30 PM
So Funny how all the people who complain about translation errors left right and centre actually quote from the "amateurish" translated files all the time to back up their arguments

Hypocritics r us



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on December 08, 2015, 09:46:26 PM
So Funny how all the people who complain about translation errors left right and centre actually quote from the "amateurish" translated files all the time to back up their arguments

Hypocritics r us

No, Mercury - the amateurish translated files are all any of us have to use. He who pretends otherwise is the hypocrite.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 08, 2015, 09:47:59 PM
So Funny how all the people who complain about translation errors left right and centre actually quote from the "amateurish" translated files all the time to back up their arguments

Hypocritics r us

Who has been complaining about translation errors?  Do enlighten me, please. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on December 08, 2015, 11:02:05 PM
1. Mr Anthony Bennett complained to the Independent Press Standards Organisation that the Daily Express had breached Clause 1 (Accuracy) of the Editors’ Code of Practice in a front-page headline “Maddy: Detective did lie about death cover-up”, published on 29 April 2015.

2. The front-page headline referred to an article on page 11 with the headline “McCanns win £428,000 over police chief’s slurs”.

. The newspaper accepted that the headline on the front page was inaccurate, and agreed that the truth of Mr Amaral’s claims were not examined during the trial. However, it did not accept that the front page headline represented a significant inaccuracy because the article itself did not report that the detective had lied, and was an accurate interpretation of the judgment. It said the headline had been written by a sub-editor who, in summarising the position of the Portuguese court, had made an assumption that the decision had been based on the truth of Mr Amaral’s claims, which is usually the case in English libel law.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 09, 2015, 12:17:44 AM
Misty/JP

Not only have a handful of people here complained about the translated files "that they use and quote" so are ingrates anyway but on top of that they say the orignal portuguese translations by the official interpretors are also unreliable , so YES I mantain the charge of HYPOCRISY...and these people have no right whatsoever in lieu  of this  to ever state anything  or quote anything from the PJ Files, ok now?

!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on December 09, 2015, 12:25:46 AM
Misty/JP

Not only have a handful of people here complained about the translated files "that they use and quote" so are ingrates anyway but on top of that they say the orignal portuguese translations by the official interpretors are also unreliable , so YES I mantain the charge of HYPOCRISY...and these people have no right whatsoever in lieu  of this  to ever state anything  or quote anything from the PJ Files, ok now?

!

Far better we all rely on media reports derived from "a source close to the investigation", don't you agree?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 09, 2015, 12:33:37 AM
Far better we all rely on media reports derived from "a source close to the investigation", don't you agree?

Sigh!
One cannot state the pj files are unreliable at source and also with translation and then quote them in defence of any argument you make !!

As for newspaper articles, both countries media can never be the bastion of truth!


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on December 09, 2015, 12:45:29 AM
Sigh!
One cannot state the pj files are unreliable at source and also with translation and then quote them in defence of any argument you make !!

As for newspaper articles, both countries media can never be the bastion of truth!

Maybe you are beginning to understand why the McCanns had to spend so much money on getting the files properly translated, why SY had to spend so much time re-interviewing English-speaking witnesses, why TTOTL had to be properly translated.......that is reality, Mercury. The rest of us are just involved in a (sophisticated?) game on the internet whilst the police do a proper job.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 09, 2015, 12:58:29 AM
Maybe you are beginning to understand why the McCanns had to spend so much money on getting the files properly translated, why SY had to spend so much time re-interviewing English-speaking witnesses, why TTOTL had to be properly translated.......that is reality, Mercury. The rest of us are just involved in a (sophisticated?) game on the internet whilst the police do a proper job.

Oooh great swerve!

As for the Mccanns spending their fund money on translation...now thats real funny...the  translators now are on the long list of people to blame, wonderful...even if the translations were faultless they would have had no choe whatsoever and would have HAD to get them professionally translated

As for uk police reinterviewing anyone and the reason being badly translated pj files you are having a massive laugh there, I would say nice try bit it was quite a bad one

Th real question here is why SY had to get the files translated themselves and not use the professionally translated ones the Mccanns  had done!!

 &%+((£
Off now




Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on December 09, 2015, 09:03:19 AM
Far better we all rely on media reports derived from "a source close to the investigation", don't you agree?

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 09, 2015, 10:37:32 AM
Fascinating.

So we have the lovely Alice claiming that the action against the other three defendants had been dismissed by the Court.  On the rather curious basis that "The other three defendants were not ordered to pay out a plug nickel in compensation."

If one actually reads the judgement, then financial compensation was not a part of the McCanns requests in respect of the other three defendants.

It turns out that most of the requests by the Mccanns have been granted by the court.  Ooops!

So then we have an odd, off topic post from dear Faith, about Tony Bennett's correspondence with the Express.

And finally, a series of posts from Mercury calling fellow posters hypocrites for quoting from translations .

To wit "Not only have a handful of people here complained about the translated files "that they use and quote" so are ingrates anyway but on top of that they say the orignal portuguese translations by the official interpretors are also unreliable , so YES I mantain the charge of HYPOCRISY...and these people have no right whatsoever in lieu  of this  to ever state anything  or quote anything from the PJ Files, ok now?"

__________________
 
What are we to make of it?  The realisation that the Court ranted most of the McCann's requests in respect of the other three defendants seems to have caused some real disquiet in the ranks of Amaral's Acolytes.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 09, 2015, 11:08:51 AM
Fascinating.

So we have the lovely Alice claiming that the action against the other three defendants had been dismissed by the Court.  On the rather curious basis that "The other three defendants were not ordered to pay out a plug nickel in compensation."

If one actually reads the judgement, then financial compensation was not a part of the McCanns requests in respect of the other three defendants.

It turns out that most of the requests by the Mccanns have been granted by the court.  Ooops!

So then we have an odd, off topic post from dear Faith, about Tony Bennett's correspondence with the Express.

And finally, a series of posts from Mercury calling fellow posters hypocrites for quoting from translations.

To wit "Not only have a handful of people here complained about the translated files "that they use and quote" so are ingrates anyway but on top of that they say the orignal portuguese translations by the official interpretors are also unreliable , so YES I mantain the charge of HYPOCRISY...and these people have no right whatsoever in lieu  of this  to ever state anything  or quote anything from the PJ Files, ok now?"

__________________
 
What are we to make of it?  The realisation that the Court ranted most of the McCann's requests in respect of the other three defendants seems to have caused some real disquiet in the ranks of Amaral's Acolytes. 


Since when was 500k most of 1.2MM ?
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 09, 2015, 11:25:07 AM
Since when was 500k most of 1.2MM ?
Perhaps you could at least have the good grace to  acknowledge your "mistake" with regard the other defendants, or does good grace elude you today, Alice dear?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 09, 2015, 11:26:35 AM
Fascinating.

So we have the lovely Alice claiming that the action against the other three defendants had been dismissed by the Court.  On the rather curious basis that "The other three defendants were not ordered to pay out a plug nickel in compensation."

If one actually reads the judgement, then financial compensation was not a part of the McCanns requests in respect of the other three defendants.

It turns out that most of the requests by the Mccanns have been granted by the court.  Ooops!

So then we have an odd, off topic post from dear Faith, about Tony Bennett's correspondence with the Express.

And finally, a series of posts from Mercury calling fellow posters hypocrites for quoting from translations.

To wit "Not only have a handful of people here complained about the translated files "that they use and quote" so are ingrates anyway but on top of that they say the orignal portuguese translations by the official interpretors are also unreliable , so YES I mantain the charge of HYPOCRISY...and these people have no right whatsoever in lieu  of this  to ever state anything  or quote anything from the PJ Files, ok now?"

__________________
 
What are we to make of it?  The realisation that the Court granted most of the McCann's requests in respect of the other three defendants seems to have caused some real disquiet in the ranks of Amaral's Acolytes. 


There is apparently some internet speculation that all has been revealed about the appeal to one who is quite renowned in some circles ~ but the timescale within which the revelation was promised to be passed down has come and gone.

Nothing new about that ... but perhaps a certain apprehension has been born.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 09, 2015, 11:34:31 AM
Perhaps you could at least have the good grace to  acknowledge your "mistake" with regard the other defendants, or does good grace elude you today, Alice dear?


Good grace eludes me all the time Alf because I am actually what Bill Wyman called Chuck Berry  ?{)(**
Not until I have made sure the other party is in fact correct in all they say  8(>((
But the comment about when was 500k considered to be most of 1.2MM still stands?
For example Alf do you believe that 500k is more than 50% of 1.2MM? So if it isn't ?
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 09, 2015, 11:38:22 AM

Good grace eludes me all the time Alf because I am actually what Bill Wyman called Chuck Berry  ?{)(**
Not until I have made sure the other party is in fact correct in all they say  8(>((
But the comment about when was 500k considered to be most of 1.2MM still stands?
For example Alf do you believe that 500k is more than 50% of 1.2MM? So if it isn't ?
Which part of what JP has quoted to you from the court ruling do you doubt?  As for your comment, we have already had this discussion, and it has no bearing on your claim that the other three defendants got off scot-free. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on December 09, 2015, 11:39:48 AM

Good grace eludes me all the time Alf because I am actually what Bill Wyman called Chuck Berry  ?{)(**
Not until I have made sure the other party is in fact correct in all they say  8(>((
But the comment about when was 500k considered to be most of 1.2MM still stands?
For example Alf do you believe that 500k is more than 50% of 1.2MM? So if it isn't ?

The Case wasn't just about money.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 09, 2015, 11:58:58 AM
The Case wasn't just about money.

Yes we know.

REVENGE.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 09, 2015, 12:02:29 PM
The Case wasn't just about money.

One could point out that money was the Genesis of this case as saving money was the reason Maddie was put at risk in the first place.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 09, 2015, 12:07:46 PM
One could point out that money was the Genesis of this case as saving money was the reason Maddie was put at risk in the first place.
Really?  Did the McCanns and their friends give that as the reason for doing their own checks or are you simply casting slurs on them all for the fun of it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 09, 2015, 12:10:35 PM
Really?  Did the McCanns and their friends give that as the reason for doing their own checks or are you simply casting slurs on them all for the fun of it?

You are defending the indefensible.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on December 09, 2015, 12:13:49 PM
One could point out that money was the Genesis of this case as saving money was the reason Maddie was put at risk in the first place.

If they were that tight-fisted - no way IMO would they have given up their 5 'free' brekkies and instead preferred to incur the extra expense of buying their breakfasts from the supermarket - rather than make the walk to the restaurant.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 09, 2015, 12:24:17 PM

Good grace eludes me all the time Alf because I am actually what Bill Wyman called Chuck Berry  ?{)(**
Not until I have made sure the other party is in fact correct in all they say  8(>((
But the comment about when was 500k considered to be most of 1.2MM still stands?
For example Alf do you believe that 500k is more than 50% of 1.2MM? So if it isn't ?

Evidently. 

If you read my post, you will see that it was confined to the case against the other three defendants.  And of course the McCann's claim only related to the publication and distribution of the book and DVD, and there was no financial claim in relation to the other three defendants. 

However, you do raise an interesting point over the original claim, which was:   


Payment to each of them of damages with a global value not inferior to 1.2 million Euros , being 500.000 Euros to the 3rd claimant (MBM), 100.000 Euros each for the 4th (SMM) and 5th (AEM) claimants and 250.000 Euros each for the 1st (KM) and 2nd (GM) claimants.

In the event, the court struck out the claims in respect of Madeleine and the twins, and this is probably reasonable.  It is impossible to quantify what damage has been caused.

But the claims in respect of GM and KM have been granted in full. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 09, 2015, 12:49:16 PM
Evidently. 

If you read my post, you will see that it was confined to the case against the other three defendants.  And of course the McCann's claim only related to the publication and distribution of the book and DVD, and there was no financial claim in relation to the other three defendants. 

However, you do raise an interesting point over the original claim, which was:   


Payment to each of them of damages with a global value not inferior to 1.2 million Euros , being 500.000 Euros to the 3rd claimant (MBM), 100.000 Euros each for the 4th (SMM) and 5th (AEM) claimants and 250.000 Euros each for the 1st (KM) and 2nd (GM) claimants.

In the event, the court struck out the claims in respect of Madeleine and the twins, and this is probably reasonable.  It is impossible to quantify what damage has been caused.

But the claims in respect of GM and KM have been granted in full.

Can you remind d us all of what payments have been made ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on December 09, 2015, 01:11:53 PM
Evidently. 

If you read my post, you will see that it was confined to the case against the other three defendants.  And of course the McCann's claim only related to the publication and distribution of the book and DVD, and there was no financial claim in relation to the other three defendants. 

However, you do raise an interesting point over the original claim, which was:   


Payment to each of them of damages with a global value not inferior to 1.2 million Euros , being 500.000 Euros to the 3rd claimant (MBM), 100.000 Euros each for the 4th (SMM) and 5th (AEM) claimants and 250.000 Euros each for the 1st (KM) and 2nd (GM) claimants.

In the event, the court struck out the claims in respect of Madeleine and the twins, and this is probably reasonable.  It is impossible to quantify what damage has been caused.

But the claims in respect of GM and KM have been granted in full.

Thankyou Jean-Pierre.   I for one really appreciate your explanatory posts - which make this case so much easier to understand.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 09, 2015, 01:37:10 PM
Can you remind d us all of what payments have been made ?

None to the Madeleine fund, of course.  (Do bear in mind that the money is still under the court's control, though).

Given that the case is still at the appeal stage, this must be a contender for "stupid question of year" award.   
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 09, 2015, 01:48:40 PM
None to the Madeleine fund, of course.  (Do bear in mind that the money is still under the court's control, though).

Given that the case is still at the appeal stage, this must be a contender for "stupid question of year" award.

I was being sarcastic.

Then again, you are rarely on the ball.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 09, 2015, 04:00:45 PM
I was being sarcastic.

Then again, you are rarely on the ball.

You wish.   8(0(* 8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 09, 2015, 04:15:51 PM
You wish.   8(0(* 8(0(*


Not on your nelly %£5&%
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 09, 2015, 04:28:52 PM
Yes we know.

REVENGE.

Oh dear Stephen.  Your hate goggles have been getting all fogged up with bile again. 

If the McCanns motive had been revenge, they would have brought an article 180 action.   
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 09, 2015, 04:52:07 PM
Oh dear Stephen.  Your hate goggles have been getting all fogged up with bile again. 

If the McCanns motive had been revenge, they would have brought an article 180 action.

There is no 'oh dear' about it.

The McCann's wanted revenge against Amaral and that is well known.

Why do you deny it ?

As to bile, ask Kate McCann and her reference to 'f##### to####', and let's not forget 'Tweedledum and Tweedledee'.

However, I'm too polite to say what I really think of the McCann's on here. £4%4%

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 09, 2015, 07:16:52 PM
There is no 'oh dear' about it.

The McCann's wanted revenge against Amaral and that is well known.

Why do you deny it ?

As to bile, ask Kate McCann and her reference to 'f##### to####', and let's not forget 'Tweedledum and Tweedledee'.

However, I'm too polite to say what I really think of the McCann's on here. £4%4%

I would love to say what I really think about you...but you are so sensitive you run to the mods
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 09, 2015, 10:29:12 PM
Which part of what JP has quoted to you from the court ruling do you doubt?  As for your comment, we have already had this discussion, and it has no bearing on your claim that the other three defendants got off scot-free.
From Google translate of the judgement. Anne Guedes translation is pretty similar:
VI. Judge over the rest of unfounded the claims made in the action attached by the authors KATE MARIE PATRICK HEALY McCann and Gerald McCann against the defendants GONÇALO AMARAL, WAR & PEACE, EDITORS, SA and VC - OAK-FILM VALENTINE, AUDIOVISUAL, SA and same acquit the defendants.
VII. Judging fully rejected the claims made in the attached action against TVI defendant - INDEPENDENT TELEVISION, SA, the same acquitting the defendant.

VII is clear enough. I leave it to the “experts” to have a dreadfully esoteric discussion about what VI means but it is fairly obvious.

But none of it was about the money. Apparently the only person in Portugal who cannot talk about and support Sr Amaral’s thesis is he. The entire nation and it’s dog seemingly can:

The prohibitions required under paragraphs d), e) and f) of action of petitionary attached, beyond the scope of this action and are Disproportionate. It is not illegal to retain the support of the thesis que Madeleine McCann died a smaller apartment in Praia da Luz and his body was hidden by parents. The scope of action is the claim by the defendant Goncalo Amaral, in the book, the interview and documentary, in concrete terms in Which it did, this same thesis.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 09, 2015, 10:39:26 PM
From Google translate of the judgement. Anne Guedes translation is pretty similar:
VI. Judge over the rest of unfounded the claims made in the action attached by the authors KATE MARIE PATRICK HEALY McCann and Gerald McCann against the defendants GONÇALO AMARAL, WAR & PEACE, EDITORS, SA and VC - OAK-FILM VALENTINE, AUDIOVISUAL, SA and same acquit the defendants.
VII. Judging fully rejected the claims made in the attached action against TVI defendant - INDEPENDENT TELEVISION, SA, the same acquitting the defendant.

VII is clear enough. I leave it to the “experts” to have a dreadfully esoteric discussion about what VI means but it is fairly obvious.

But none of it was about the money. Apparently the only person in Portugal who cannot talk about and support Sr Amaral’s thesis is he. The entire nation and it’s dog seemingly can:

The prohibitions required under paragraphs d), e) and f) of action of petitionary attached, beyond the scope of this action and are Disproportionate. It is not illegal to retain the support of the thesis que Madeleine McCann died a smaller apartment in Praia da Luz and his body was hidden by parents. The scope of action is the claim by the defendant Goncalo Amaral, in the book, the interview and documentary, in concrete terms in Which it did, this same thesis.
what are you understanding  "retain the support ôf the thesis que" to mean, out of interest?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 09, 2015, 10:50:26 PM
From Google translate of the judgement. Anne Guedes translation is pretty similar:
VI. Judge over the rest of unfounded the claims made in the action attached by the authors KATE MARIE PATRICK HEALY McCann and Gerald McCann against the defendants GONÇALO AMARAL, WAR & PEACE, EDITORS, SA and VC - OAK-FILM VALENTINE, AUDIOVISUAL, SA and same acquit the defendants.
VII. Judging fully rejected the claims made in the attached action against TVI defendant - INDEPENDENT TELEVISION, SA, the same acquitting the defendant.

VII is clear enough. I leave it to the “experts” to have a dreadfully esoteric discussion about what VI means but it is fairly obvious.

But none of it was about the money. Apparently the only person in Portugal who cannot talk about and support Sr Amaral’s thesis is he. The entire nation and it’s dog seemingly can:

The prohibitions required under paragraphs d), e) and f) of action of petitionary attached, beyond the scope of this action and are Disproportionate. It is not illegal to retain the support of the thesis que Madeleine McCann died a smaller apartment in Praia da Luz and his body was hidden by parents. The scope of action is the claim by the defendant Goncalo Amaral, in the book, the interview and documentary, in concrete terms in Which it did, this same thesis.

of course it is not illegal...ie it is not acriminal offence...whether it is libellous is another question...as to the world and his dog........perhaps because the world and his dog have not been sued for libel..in the same way that Bennett has to now keep his mouth shut whilst the world and his dog can say what they like on the net....it's quite simple really
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 09, 2015, 11:56:17 PM
From Google translate of the judgement. Anne Guedes translation is pretty similar:
VI. Judge over the rest of unfounded the claims made in the action attached by the authors KATE MARIE PATRICK HEALY McCann and Gerald McCann against the defendants GONÇALO AMARAL, WAR & PEACE, EDITORS, SA and VC - OAK-FILM VALENTINE, AUDIOVISUAL, SA and same acquit the defendants.
VII. Judging fully rejected the claims made in the attached action against TVI defendant - INDEPENDENT TELEVISION, SA, the same acquitting the defendant.

VII is clear enough. I leave it to the “experts” to have a dreadfully esoteric discussion about what VI means but it is fairly obvious.

But none of it was about the money. Apparently the only person in Portugal who cannot talk about and support Sr Amaral’s thesis is he. The entire nation and it’s dog seemingly can:

The prohibitions required under paragraphs d), e) and f) of action of petitionary attached, beyond the scope of this action and are Disproportionate. It is not illegal to retain the support of the thesis que Madeleine McCann died a smaller apartment in Praia da Luz and his body was hidden by parents. The scope of action is the claim by the defendant Goncalo Amaral, in the book, the interview and documentary, in concrete terms in Which it did, this same thesis.
__________________________

(I see that in fact the claims against TV1 were dropped - mainly because they provided a disclaimer in 44 and 45 before broadcast which provided them with a good defence - well spotted Alice)


So Alice - are you saying that the snipped part of the judgement above, and in particular VI fully supports your view that the other three defendants (GONÇALO AMARAL, WAR & PEACE, EDITORS, SA and VC - OAK-FILM VALENTINE, AUDIOVISUAL, SA and TV1) all got off scott free? 

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 10, 2015, 03:51:15 PM
__________________________

(I see that in fact the claims against TV1 were dropped - mainly because they provided a disclaimer in 44 and 45 before broadcast which provided them with a good defence - well spotted Alice)


So Alice - are you saying that the snipped part of the judgement above, and in particular VI fully supports your view that the other three defendants (GONÇALO AMARAL, WAR & PEACE, EDITORS, SA and VC - OAK-FILM VALENTINE, AUDIOVISUAL, SA and TV1) all got off scott free?

I never used the term scot(t) free that was Alfred then you.

Your proposition is that the case was a resounding success for the McCanns and they got most of what they claimed.
My proposition is it wasn't and they didn't. So far they have yet to hold on to what has been awarded.
The judges apportionment of court costs would not appear to reflect your view.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 10, 2015, 04:03:53 PM
I never used the term scot(t) free that was Alfred then you.

Your proposition is that the case was a resounding success for the McCanns and they got most of what they claimed.
My proposition is it wasn't and they didn't. So far they have yet to hold on to what has been awarded.
The judges apportionment of court costs would not appear to reflect your view.


The judges apportionment of costs would


the ruling was a disaster for amaral...and a resounding success for the McCanns....it really is that simple
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 10, 2015, 05:13:34 PM

the ruling was a disaster for amaral...and a resounding success for the McCanns....it really is that simple


Do you think by regularly repeating that, that everyone will agree with you ?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 10, 2015, 05:31:18 PM

the ruling was a disaster for amaral...and a resounding success for the McCanns....it really is that simple
I agree.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 10, 2015, 09:19:55 PM

the ruling was a disaster for amaral...and a resounding success for the McCanns....it really is that simple

I guess, since Amaral is appealing (verb, not adjective) and the McCanns aren't, that's, kind of, the proof ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 10, 2015, 10:28:47 PM
what are you understanding  "retain the support ôf the thesis que" to mean, out of interest?

Err like errm I don't know cos accordion to your cohort  (now there's a posh word) I is intellekchally challenged an' anyway whatever I post you will probably post:
 @)(++(*
in reply as is your wont (anuvver posh word)
So let's not bovver eh chief ? I have had my fun, time to move on 8(0(*.

p.s it's google translate which you lot prefer to Ann Guedes' translation, que ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 11, 2015, 10:58:13 AM
I'm with JP in thinking that things may not all be going to plan in Mr Amaral's life at the moment.  Then what's new ... if you take a cursory look he seems to have made a car crash out of everything he has had anything to do with ... one can only hope he is as successful with his appeal as he is with everything else he touches.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 11, 2015, 11:20:52 AM
I'm with JP in thinking that things may not all be going to plan in Mr Amaral's life at the moment.  Then what's new ... if you take a cursory look he seems to have made a car crash out of everything he has had anything to do with ... one can only hope he is as successful with his appeal as he is with everything else he touches.

...and if he wins the appeal, what then of the mccanns.

Oh yes, more legal bills...........................................................
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 11, 2015, 11:21:03 AM
The Lisbon appeal court is taking its time over this latest decision, could it be they were hoping our boys in blue would have made a wonderful breakthrough by now?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2015, 11:42:56 AM
The Lisbon appeal court is taking its time over this latest decision, could it be they were hoping our boys in blue would have made a wonderful breakthrough by now?

Absolutely not
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 11, 2015, 11:46:40 AM
Absolutely not

The Lisbon court will be extremely interested in what the police come up with in relation to the claimed abduction. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on December 11, 2015, 12:28:11 PM
The Lisbon court will be extremely interested in what the police come up with in relation to the claimed abduction.

Why?  What have the police findings got to do with a Not Libel Trial.  Amaral still broke the terms of his employment and denied The McCanns the right to innocent until proven guilty.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2015, 12:32:46 PM
The Lisbon court will be extremely interested in what the police come up with in relation to the claimed abduction.
The Lisbon court is independent and will make its own decision based on the facts of the case
It would be highly insulted that you should think it is waiting on SY
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 11, 2015, 12:34:51 PM
The Lisbon appeal court is taking its time over this latest decision, could it be they were hoping our boys in blue would have made a wonderful breakthrough by now?

Davel is quite correct, Angelo.  The appeal court will be sticking to its remit of considering points of law and the evidence presented at the original trial, and the grounds that Dr Amaral has given for his appeal against the decision.   

[ moderated ]
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Admin on December 11, 2015, 01:06:11 PM
Davel is quite correct, Angelo.  The appeal court will be sticking to its remit of considering points of law and the evidence presented at the original trial, and the grounds that Dr Amaral has given for his appeal against the decision.   
.
[ moderated ]

The Court has also to take into account live police investigations and act accordingly.  An example of this would be if Madeleine were found.  The Court would then have to refer the case back to the original judge to make appropriate changes to her judgement taking into account the claims made by both parties to the damages lawsuit.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 11, 2015, 01:14:27 PM
The Court has also to take into account live police investigations and act accordingly.  An example of this would be if Madeleine were found.  The Court would then have to refer the case back to the original judge to make appropriate changes to her judgement taking into account the claims made by both parties to the damages lawsuit.
Such as...?  How would Madeleine being found alter the damages judgement?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Admin on December 11, 2015, 01:17:31 PM
Such as...?  How would Madeleine being found alter the damages judgement?

That would depend on what was found, whether she was alive or dead and many other factors.  The Court of First Instance has made its decision taking into account many factors.  A breakthrough in the investigation to discover what befell Madeleine could very well alter one or more of those factors.  The CoFI judge would then be asked to review her Judgement.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 11, 2015, 01:25:25 PM
That would depend on what was found, whether she was alive or dead and many other factors.  The Court of First Instance has made its decision taking into account many factors.  A breakthrough in the investigation to discover what befell Madeleine could very well alter one or more of those factors.  The CoFI judge would then be asked to review her Judgement.

Are you suggesting that the appeal will be deferred or delayed pending completion of the police investigation and madeleines fate determined?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on December 11, 2015, 01:31:29 PM

Even if the Police found Madeleine it wouldn't affect the outcome of The Trial Appeal.

Or would The Appeal Court up the damages?  I don't think so.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2015, 01:47:24 PM
That would depend on what was found, whether she was alive or dead and many other factors.  The Court of First Instance has made its decision taking into account many factors.  A breakthrough in the investigation to discover what befell Madeleine could very well alter one or more of those factors.  The CoFI judge would then be asked to review her Judgement.

I am pointing out that the court will not be waiting for any news from SY......
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on December 11, 2015, 01:49:20 PM
Indeed, even the law can't wait that long.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Admin on December 11, 2015, 01:50:37 PM
Are you suggesting that the appeal will be deferred or delayed pending completion of the police investigation and madeleines fate determined?

No but should evidence come to light before the CoA make their decision, that evidence could have an impact on the original decision.  That said, regardless of when the case is determined, assuming for a moment it ever will be, I foresee other lawsuits being pursued by the innocent party or parties.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2015, 01:55:09 PM
No but should evidence come to light before the CoA make their decision, that evidence could have an impact on the original decision.  That said, regardless of when the case is determined, assuming for a moment it ever will be, I foresee other lawsuits being pursued by the innocent party or parties.

Will amaral be able to appeal again if he loses
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Admin on December 11, 2015, 02:00:13 PM
Members are reminded to consider carefully what they post and in which threads.  A lot of irrelevant postings have been removed recently along with several posts which were a clear breach of our rules.  Removing this material is a thankless and time consuming task for editors and moderators so please desist.

Admin
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Admin on December 11, 2015, 02:04:01 PM
Will amaral be able to appeal again if he loses

There are various options available to him.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2015, 02:16:28 PM
There are various options available to him.
.
I'm not sure there is
What options are you referring to
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 11, 2015, 02:30:29 PM
.
I'm not sure there is
What options are you referring to

Unless I have misunderstood Jean-Pierre's posts, if the court hearing the present appeal rules the same as the court of first instance, the McCanns will be outright winners.

I have misunderstood?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 11, 2015, 02:33:43 PM
There are various options available to him.

The legal position is that if the appeal court agrees the verdict of the first court then judgement becomes final.  No further appeal would be allowed and he would have to pay up.

If the court of second instance disagrees then the appeal may proceed to the Supreme Court.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 11, 2015, 02:37:35 PM
The legal position is that if the appeal court agrees the verdict of the first court then judgement becomes final.  No further appeal would be allowed and he would have to pay up.

If the court of second instance disagrees then the appeal may proceed to the Supreme Court.

I haven't ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2015, 02:38:47 PM
The legal position is that if the appeal court agrees the verdict of the first court then judgement becomes final.  No further appeal would be allowed and he would have to pay up.

If the court of second instance disagrees then the appeal may proceed to the Supreme Court.

That is precisely as I understood it
No other options
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 11, 2015, 02:44:19 PM
judgement would become final and payment due.  As the money is apparently held in court it would be quick.

But thinking of amarals options in that eventuality - he has often mentioned a counter claim against the mccanns and that remains possible.  Although I struggle to think on what grounds.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on December 11, 2015, 04:17:12 PM
judgement would become final and payment due.  As the money is apparently held in court it would be quick.

But thinking of amarals options in that eventuality - he has often mentioned a counter claim against the mccanns and that remains possible.  Although I struggle to think on what grounds.

That is more or less a fair summation.  If the appeal is upheld  and Mr Amaral wins and sees his assets unfrozen after six years of litigation the McCanns can also appeal. That would involve an appeal to the Supreme Court, and then even to the Constitutional Court.

Should Amaral lose the fight he could raise a case against Portuguese justice in the European Court of Human Rights on the basis of freedom of expression.  Whatever happens it could be years before the matter is fully resolved.

There is also every possibility that Amaral could raise his own civil proceedings against the McCanns.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 11, 2015, 04:21:21 PM
That is more or less a fair summation.  If the appeal is upheld  and Mr Amaral wins and sees his assets unfrozen after six years of litigation the McCanns can also appeal. That would involve an appeal to the Supreme Court, and then even to the Constitutional Court.

Should Amaral lose the fight he could raise a case against Portuguese justice in the European Court of Human Rights on the basis of freedom of expression.  Whatever happens it could be years before the matter is fully resolved.

There is also every possibility that Amaral could raise his own civil proceedings against the McCanns.
On what basis?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2015, 04:45:59 PM
That is more or less a fair summation.  If the appeal is upheld  and Mr Amaral wins and sees his assets unfrozen after six years of litigation the McCanns can also appeal. That would involve an appeal to the Supreme Court, and then even to the Constitutional Court.

Should Amaral lose the fight he could raise a case against Portuguese justice in the European Court of Human Rights on the basis of freedom of expression.  Whatever happens it could be years before the matter is fully resolved.

There is also every possibility that Amaral could raise his own civil proceedings against the McCanns.

this case is not about freedom of expression...its about amaral breaking a Portuguese law relating to not allowing the McCanns the presumption of innocence ...which they are guaranteed under European law...that's why I don't think he has a case to take to Europe. Secondly I don't think an appeal to the European court could over ride the Portuguese judgement and amaral would be forced to pay damages...in the hope that his European appeal would see the money returned
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on December 11, 2015, 05:04:26 PM
On what basis?

It wouldn't be appropriate for me to publish this information on a public forum.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2015, 05:09:40 PM
It wouldn't be appropriate for me to publish this information on a public forum.

I think we are all aware of the facts in this case...amaral is toast as I have said before...if he had a case against the McCanns he would have started things by now...if you can't give any details your comments can only be viewed as pure speculation. You have posted several times that you could not see how the judge could make a judgement when Maddie's fate was not known...you were wrong on that so unfortunately your track record is not too good
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 11, 2015, 05:10:53 PM
this case is not about freedom of expression...its about amaral breaking a Portuguese law relating to not allowing the McCanns the presumption of innocence ...which they are guaranteed under European law...that's why I don't think he has a case to take to Europe. Secondly I don't think an appeal to the European court could over ride the Portuguese judgement and amaral would be forced to pay damages...in the hope that his European appeal would see the money returned

You obviously haven't read the judgement then.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 11, 2015, 05:11:19 PM
It wouldn't be appropriate for me to publish this information on a public forum.
What information are you talking about?  I'm only asking your  opinion re: what possible reason Amaral could have for suing the McCanns.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 11, 2015, 05:12:23 PM
I think we are all aware of the facts in this case...amaral is toast as I have said before...if he had a case against the McCanns he would have started things by now...if you can't give any details your comments can only be viewed as pure speculation. You have posted several times that you could not see how the judge could make a judgement when Maddie's fate was not known...you were wrong on that so unfortunately your track record is not too good

John is correct, any judgement could be overturned when the truth comes out. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2015, 05:13:35 PM
You obviously haven't read the judgement then.

I have...do you not understand that one of the major reason for damages was the presumption of innocence issue...you got  a lot wrong yesterday.....it seems you are wrong again today
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2015, 05:17:07 PM
John is correct, any judgement could be overturned when the truth comes out.  Take care with your bitchy comments davel, you are already on a warning.

John did claim exactly as I posted...so his track record is not too good...what is wrong with taht
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 11, 2015, 05:19:46 PM
It wouldn't be appropriate for me to publish this information on a public forum.

Of course.  (Touches nose knowingly)

Come off it john.  This isn't the first time you've tried the secret squirrel stuff. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2015, 05:20:08 PM
The McCanns were entitled to the presumption of innocence when they had not been tried and found guilty...the judgement was clear on that....in the very unlikely situation that the McCanns were subsequently found guilty...at the time amaral made his comments they were entitled to be presumed innocent
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 11, 2015, 05:25:25 PM
The McCanns were entitled to the presumption of innocence when they had not been tried and found guilty...the judgement was clear on that....in the very unlikely situation that the McCanns were subsequently found guilty...at the time amaral made his comments they were entitled to be presumed innocent
Indeed.  Surely Amaral's actions over the last few years have ensured that in such an event of the McCanns being charged with a crime in Portugal they could never expect a fair trial anyway.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on December 11, 2015, 05:25:38 PM
Of course.  (Touches nose knowingly)

Come off it john.  This isn't the first time you've tried the secret squirrel stuff.

Actually much of it isn't secret and has been discussed at length previously.  Let's just say Amaral isn't the only one who has questions to answer.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on December 11, 2015, 05:27:35 PM
The McCanns were entitled to the presumption of innocence when they had not been tried and found guilty...the judgement was clear on that....in the very unlikely situation that the McCanns were subsequently found guilty...at the time amaral made his comments they were entitled to be presumed innocent

Didn't the Attorney General state that they had lost the opportunity to establish (confirmar) that innocence?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2015, 05:29:31 PM
Actually much of it isn't secret and has been discussed at length previously.  Let's just say Amaral isn't the only one who has questions to answer.

lets just say that is just your opinion

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2015, 05:32:31 PM
Didn't the Attorney General state that they had lost the opportunity to establish (confirmar) that innocence?

they are under no obligation to do that and as I have pointed out before...it would be basically impossible ....Barry George after two full trials has been unable to confirm his innocence...it was  a ridiculous suggestion
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 11, 2015, 05:32:37 PM
Didn't the Attorney General state that they had lost the opportunity to establish (confirmar) that innocence?
Really John, how many times has this been gone over and explained?!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 11, 2015, 05:34:09 PM
The stuff about an appeal to the ECHR is straight out of the Bennett legal expertise.  He tried that in his own case. 

The ECHR has made it clear that it is not to be seen as a sort of super court of appeal for disgruntled litigants and amaral simply does not have a case.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2015, 05:35:09 PM
The stuff about an appeal to the ECHR is straight out of the Bennett legal expertise.  He tried that in his own case. 

The ECHR has made it clear that it is not to be seen as a sort of super court of appeal for disgruntled litigants and amaral simply does not have a case.  Sorry.


precisely
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 11, 2015, 05:37:59 PM
Didn't the Attorney General state that they had lost the opportunity to establish (confirmar) that innocence?

demonstrate sounds much more plausible to me.

I am more than willing to give the prosecutors benefit of doubt that they are not fascist, particularly in light of what else they say in their report, and of what else has come to light from files we read on line, many given via the agency of proven fraudster Levy.

The files are a useful guide, but they are no more than that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2015, 05:48:38 PM
For the benefit of angelo...

In this case, the claimants Kate and Gerald MacCann never ceased to benefit from this presumption of innocence and from the imperative of behaviour that this presumption places on national judicial and justice authorities and all the civil servants and agents.

This is obviously from the judgement which made  a major point that amaral had a responsibility as a justice authority agent to respect the presumption of innocence
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on December 11, 2015, 05:52:52 PM
demonstrate sounds much more plausible to me.

I am more than willing to give the prosecutors benefit of doubt that they are not fascist, particularly in light of what else they say in their report, and of what else has come to light from files we read on line, many given via the agency of proven fraudster Levy.

The files are a useful guide, but they are no more than that.

Yes, demonstrate is an excellent translation, I will go with that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on December 11, 2015, 05:54:11 PM
For the benefit of angelo...

In this case, the claimants Kate and Gerald MacCann never ceased to benefit from this presumption of innocence and from the imperative of behaviour that this presumption places on national judicial and justice authorities and all the civil servants and agents.

This is obviously from the judgement which made  a major point that amaral had a responsibility as a justice authority agent to respect the presumption of innocence

The presumption of innocence and being technically innocent are probably mutually exclusive.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2015, 05:59:03 PM
The presumption of innocence and being technically innocent are probably mutually exclusive.

that would imply that all accused are guilty...which fits in well with the amaral school of justice
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 11, 2015, 08:15:20 PM
that would imply that all accused are guilty...which fits in well with the amaral school of justice

So you co-operate and answer police questions to prove your innocent. By not answering questions don't expect to be cleared as suspects in an unsolved case. If you are not helping but hindering the police investigation then it's stupid to think otherwise.

1. On May 3 2007, around 22:00, when you entered the apartment, what did you see? What did you do? Where did you look? What did you touch?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 11, 2015, 09:14:55 PM
So you co-operate and answer police questions to prove your innocent. By not answering questions don't expect to be cleared as suspects in an unsolved case. If you are not helping but hindering the police investigation then it's stupid to think otherwise.

1. On May 3 2007, around 22:00, when you entered the apartment, what did you see? What did you do? Where did you look? What did you touch?

To begin there is never a requirement to prove innocence.

Second, certain elements of the Pj (far from all, but certainly the ones who interviewed the McCanns, and Kate in particular) were out to get them, with ridiculous, loaded, questions.

Kate did the wisest thing and clammed up.

No one should have blamed Gerry if he'd chosen to do the same.

The prosecutors presided over it all with wise eyes and adjudicated judiciously.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 11, 2015, 09:24:52 PM
So you co-operate and answer police questions to prove your innocent. By not answering questions don't expect to be cleared as suspects in an unsolved case. If you are not helping but hindering the police investigation then it's stupid to think otherwise.

1. On May 3 2007, around 22:00, when you entered the apartment, what did you see? What did you do? Where did you look? What did you touch?

WOW!  took them ages to get round to asking that one ... how many months after ? ? ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2015, 09:31:38 PM
Can you imagine what would have happened if the mccanns had answered all questions and thus proved their innocence...would posters on here have accepted them as innocent
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Admin on December 11, 2015, 09:37:12 PM
Can you imagine what would have happened if the mccanns had answered all questions and thus proved their innocence...would posters on here have accepted them as innocent

That's a big assumption davel, would answering all the questions have proved them innocent?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2015, 09:40:22 PM
That's a big assumption davel, would answering all the questions have proved them innocent?

absolutely not...that's why the statement was so ridiculous...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 11, 2015, 09:54:15 PM
WOW!  took them ages to get round to asking that one ... how many months after ? ? ?

That doesn't matter. SY are asking witnesses questions 8 years later.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 11, 2015, 10:43:21 PM
WOW!  took them ages to get round to asking that one ... how many months after ? ? ?

wow! Took loads of witnesses to get round to speaking to police or media  about what they saw...how many months/years after?



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 12, 2015, 12:27:50 AM
That doesn't matter. SY are asking witnesses questions 8 years later.

They say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit ... so having failed with that one allow me put it to you as simply as I can.

It is my opinion that if Dr McCann had not already been asked that specific question ... the police were somewhat remiss in their duty.
The ideal time would have been immediately after Madeleine's disappearance when things were still fresh in her mind.  Or even when she was still a witness while under lengthy questioning prior to being constituted arguida ... when she would have been obliged to answer.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 12, 2015, 12:35:17 AM
Can you imagine what would have happened if the mccanns had answered all questions and thus proved their innocence...would posters on here have accepted them as innocent

Gerry answered all his questions and is considered guilty by some ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 12, 2015, 02:14:29 AM
They say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit ... so having failed with that one allow me put it to you as simply as I can.

It is my opinion that if Dr McCann had not already been asked that specific question ... the police were somewhat remiss in their duty.
The ideal time would have been immediately after Madeleine's disappearance when things were still fresh in her mind.  Or even when she was still a witness while under lengthy questioning prior to being constituted arguida ... when she would have been obliged to answer.

Tannerman seen carrying a child close to the crime scene was the first suspect not the McCanns. They were leaving Portugal after being accused of involvement in August. They left the next day after both being declared arguidos.

It is absolutely right that we are subject to the same high standards of investigation as anyone else. Kate and I have, and will continue to assist the police in every possible way. GM Blog Day 96 - 07/08/2007

 @)(++(*

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 12, 2015, 06:23:07 AM
Tannerman seen carrying a child close to the crime scene was the first suspect not the McCanns. They were leaving Portugal after being accused of involvement in August. They left the next day after both being declared arguidos.

It is absolutely right that we are subject to the same high standards of investigation as anyone else. Kate and I have, and will continue to assist the police in every possible way. GM Blog Day 96 - 07/08/2007

 @)(++(*

Gerry did talk alot of sh it didnt he from the start to the end, have to give him a medal for trying though he often put his foot in it poor dear, lol
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 13, 2015, 09:40:23 AM
Well, where to start


-they were made to look utterly stupid judging by the pathetic performance of some of their "witnesses"
- they had a claim trashed even before hearing
- most of their claims were denied
- most of their claims remain unproven
- their action will have a bad pr effect either way

- the whole trial will always go down as a money grabbng exercise, by them, confirmed by the very fact they waited a whole  year to sue...€€€€€€€€€€

Interesting

Which claims were denied?

And who is appealing the result?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 13, 2015, 09:43:13 AM
Interesting

Which claims were denied?

And who is appealing the result?

Read the judgement
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 13, 2015, 09:45:44 AM
Interesting that the media reported the judgement as a huge success for the McCanns - are they all ignorant of the facts?  Or are they all part of Team McCann, or what?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on December 13, 2015, 09:52:20 AM
Interesting that the media reported the judgement as a huge success for the McCanns - are they all ignorant of the facts?  Or are they all part of Team McCann, or what?

They accepted Team McCann's statement that 'it was about harming the search' and none of them pointed out that the judge found that point not proven, so take your pick. Ignorant, scared of Carter Ruck, supportive, could be any of them given the state of our media these days.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 13, 2015, 09:52:27 AM
Interesting that the media reported the judgement as a huge success for the McCanns - are they all ignorant of the facts?  Or are they all part of Team McCann, or what?

Well, there's a surprise. The UK media has NOT questioned the mccanns version of events since the express libel trial, regardless of the fact, that abduction scenario is at ground zero. Mind you, they have made more people aware of the other possibilities in the meantime, including Amaral's book.

So how many points did the mccanns FAIL to prove, e.g. the book did not impede the search ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 13, 2015, 10:01:35 AM
Read the judgement

I have of course read the judgement. Which is why I am puzzled about your statement that the case was a "car crash" for the McCanns.

Their claims met in full as far as Amaral and two of the defendants are concerned. 

If it was such a car crash, why did Amaral need a fund to cover the costs of his appeal?



 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 13, 2015, 10:02:02 AM
Interesting that the media reported the judgement as a huge success for the McCanns - are they all ignorant of the facts?  Or are they all part of Team McCann, or what?

No it is not interesting at all, its just the same ole...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 13, 2015, 10:03:29 AM
I have of course read the judgement. Which is why I am puzzled about your statement that the case was a "car crash" for the McCanns.

Their claims met in full as far as Amaral and two of the defendants are concerned. 

If it was such a car crash, why did Amaral need a fund to cover the costs of his appeal?





 



Which claims fell then ?

The mccanns were unable to prove several critical claims .
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 13, 2015, 10:05:17 AM
I have of course read the judgement. Which is why I am puzzled about your statement that the case was a "car crash" for the McCanns.

Their claims met in full as far as Amaral and two of the defendants are concerned. 

If it was such a car crash, why did Amaral need a fund to cover the costs of his appeal?



 

Claims NOT met in full JP
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 13, 2015, 10:08:04 AM
They accepted Team McCann's statement that 'it was about harming the search' and none of them pointed out that the judge found that point not proven, so take your pick. Ignorant, scared of Carter Ruck, supportive, could be any of them given the state of our media these days.
if the judgement really was a car crash verdict for the McCanns and the media had reported it as such, how would that have been a) unsupportive or b) subject to a potential legal threat?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 13, 2015, 10:20:08 AM
Neither Amaral's book nor video will see light of day again and Amaral isn't appealing that.

Amaral has been ordered to pay the McCanns compensation and he is appealing that.

True that a book published after the investigation was archived was deemed not to have harmed the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance.

No real surprise there

That Amaral is appealing clearly indicates he is not happy.

That the McCanns are not clearly indicates they are (at least with the outcome of the trial)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 13, 2015, 10:25:01 AM
Claims NOT met in full JP

Oh dear, are you really such an innocent in the way of the world, and especially the legal world?

In a complex civil case where there are numerous claims, it is vanishingly rare for all of the claims to be met in full.  (In cases which are so clear cut, then it is usually settled out of court.)

So if your definition of "car crash" is "all claims not met in full" then best of luck to you. 

In fairness, I do realise that it is your mission to support Amaral in every possible way, but maybe try to keep somewhere within the realms of reality?  This is not Haverns or some of the other places - it is a forum where all shades of opinion are promoted. 



 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 13, 2015, 10:30:27 AM
if the judgement really was a car crash verdict for the McCanns and the media had reported it as such, how would that have been a) unsupportive or b) subject to a potential legal threat?

Exactly.

They would have been reporting "the truth" (as G-Unit sees it) ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 13, 2015, 10:34:00 AM
Neither Amaral's book nor video will see light of day again and Amaral isn't appealing that.

Amaral has been ordered to pay the McCanns compensation and he is appealing that.

True that a book published after the investigation was archived was deemed not to have harmed the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance.

No real surprise there

That Amaral is appealing clearly indicates he is not happy.

That the McCanns are not clearly indicates they are (at least with the outcome of the trial)

You do exist in dreamland.

The book is already on the internet as is the video.

The mccanns have yet to get a penny.

Meanwhile let's what John comes up with. *&*%£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 13, 2015, 10:47:43 AM
You do exist in dreamland.

The book is already on the internet as is the video.

The mccanns have yet to get a penny.

Meanwhile let's what John comes up with. *&*%£

Er.... Right.  The secret stuff that he cant reveal on a public forum?   8(0(*

Well, I suppose anything to give you "hope" in these dark days, eh?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on December 13, 2015, 11:02:02 AM
Oh dear, are you really such an innocent in the way of the world, and especially the legal world?

In a complex civil case where there are numerous claims, it is vanishingly rare for all of the claims to be met in full.  (In cases which are so clear cut, then it is usually settled out of court.)

So if your definition of "car crash" is "all claims not met in full" then best of luck to you. 

In fairness, I do realise that it is your mission to support Amaral in every possible way, but maybe try to keep somewhere within the realms of reality?  This is not Haverns or some of the other places - it is a forum where all shades of opinion are promoted.

Oh dear....if you have issues take them up where they belong and dont use me as a punchbag, ta, your last paragraph is laughable at best...get a grip
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 13, 2015, 11:09:35 AM
Oh dear....if you have issues take them up where they belong and dont use me as a punchbag, ta, your last paragraph is laughable at best...get a grip

Nobody is using you as a punchbag.  Least of all me.

When you make stupid statements such as "the case of a "car crash" for the McCanns and are then unable to respond to a reasonable request for an explanation (barring "read the judgement"), then you can expect a bit of good natured mickey taking. 

If I have hurt your feelings, then I sincerely apologise
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on December 13, 2015, 11:18:39 AM
if the judgement really was a car crash verdict for the McCanns and the media had reported it as such, how would that have been a) unsupportive or b) subject to a potential legal threat?

I never said that the verdict was a car crash for the McCanns. I was referring to the fact that they didn't challenge the McCann's 'spinned' version of their win. Not one reported the truth of the verdict; that the McCann's won damages for themselves, but not for their children or for the 'harm to the search'. Team McCann may have been telling the truth as they saw it when they said the case was about the harm caused to the search and the libeling of the children, but that's not why they won a pay out.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 13, 2015, 11:30:44 AM
I never said that the verdict was a car crash for the McCanns. I was referring to the fact that they didn't challenge the McCann's 'spinned' version of their win. Not one reported the truth of the verdict; that the McCann's won damages for themselves, but not for their children or for the 'harm to the search'. Team McCann may have been telling the truth as they saw it when they said the case was about the harm caused to the search and the libeling of the children, but that's not why they won a pay out.

I don't think libelling the children was part of the claim.....much as you don't want to accept it...the verdict was a resounding victory for the McCanns and a disaster for amaral
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 13, 2015, 12:14:55 PM
I don't think libelling the children was part of the claim.....much as you don't want to accept it...the verdict was a resounding victory for the McCanns and a disaster for amaral

Amaral's book will never see light of day (at least in any retail shop, perhaps, free on the internet).  Neither his video.

He would be a brave (foolhardy) man to continue appearances on television to talk about it.

Since Amaral's assets are frozen, he may not have too many options about delaying payment of damages to the McCanns.

It's difficult to see what consolation Amaral can take from the fallout of events in May.

His appeal (if such he has) is against the damages award.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on December 13, 2015, 12:21:47 PM
Amaral's book will never see light of day (at least in any retail shop, perhaps, free on the internet).  Neither his video.

He would be a brave (foolhardy) man to continue appearances on television to talk about it.

Since Amaral's assets are frozen, he may not have too many options about delaying payment of damages to the McCanns.

It's difficult to see what consolation Amaral can take from the fallout of events in May.

His appeal (if such he has) is against the damages award.

If Amaral loses the McCanns will still have to pay over 50% of the costs which could possibly, I assume, erode significantly the damages awarded to them.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 13, 2015, 12:24:39 PM
Amaral's book will never see light of day (at least in any retail shop, perhaps, free on the internet).  Neither his video.

He would be a brave (foolhardy) man to continue appearances on television to talk about it.

Since Amaral's assets are frozen, he may not have too many options about delaying payment of damages to the McCanns.

It's difficult to see what consolation Amaral can take from the fallout of events in May.

His appeal (if such he has) is against the damages award.

It has already seen the light of day, and both are freely available.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 13, 2015, 12:26:33 PM
If Amaral loses the McCanns will still have to pay over 50% of the costs which could possibly, I assume, erode significantly the damages awarded to them.

early damage limitation
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 13, 2015, 12:31:08 PM
early damage limitation

Hardly.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 13, 2015, 12:41:21 PM
Amaral has been punished for writing a book of lies that will never see light of day again.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 13, 2015, 12:43:23 PM
Amaral has been punished for writing a book of lies that will never see light of day again.


It is available, FREELY , on the net.

Yet you know that already. 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on December 13, 2015, 01:10:11 PM
See my post 4218 (above) ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on December 13, 2015, 01:59:27 PM
I am told Gonçalo is currently writing another book about his experiences post coordinator.  Should be an interesting read.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 13, 2015, 02:20:34 PM
I never said that the verdict was a car crash for the McCanns. I was referring to the fact that they didn't challenge the McCann's 'spinned' version of their win. Not one reported the truth of the verdict; that the McCann's won damages for themselves, but not for their children or for the 'harm to the search'. Team McCann may have been telling the truth as they saw it when they said the case was about the harm caused to the search and the libeling of the children, but that's not why they won a pay out.
I believe the past tense of spin is spun, but that's by the by.  The papers reported the truth in as much as the verdict was a resounding success for the McCanns and that Amaral was ordered to make the largest ever payout in PT legal history for a case of this kind.  The detail that you are harping on is of little interest or consequence to the average punter, much as you would wish it to be otherwise.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 13, 2015, 02:33:45 PM
Amaral has been punished for writing a book of lies that will never see light of day again.

That is correct provided he loses his appeal.
Mind you if he loses it only cuts off a source income for Sr Amaral which was the objective of the ruling. The offending work is splattered all over the net and 250,000 copies are in circulation somewhere so his word is about for anyone who wishes to read it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 13, 2015, 02:38:24 PM
That is correct provided he loses his appeal.
Mind you if he loses it only cuts off a source income for Sr Amaral which was the objective of the ruling. The offending work is splattered all over the net and 250,000 copies are in circulation somewhere so his word is about for anyone who wishes to read it.

I think the important words are...for anyone who wishes to read it
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 13, 2015, 03:41:05 PM
I think the important words are...for anyone who wishes to read it

Probably, but the net result of the trial,so far, is that Sr Amaral may not profit from the book and video but the thesis is at large and quoted by the press which provides a larger circulation than the book sales.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 13, 2015, 04:44:30 PM
Probably, but the net result of the trial,so far, is that Sr Amaral may not profit from the book and video but the thesis is at large and quoted by the press which provides a larger circulation than the book sales.

I would say he and his thesis has been fairly well discredited outside of Portugal
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 13, 2015, 05:09:23 PM
I would say he and his thesis has been fairly well discredited outside of Portugal

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating ... it will be interesting to see if after the dust settles on the appeal ... Mr Amaral's presence as a pundit on Portuguese television holds the same sway.

Could be a nice little earner down the drain ... having Google read (LOL) some of the comments in the Portuguese press after the announcement of the judgement ... there are a lot of people in Portugal none too impressed by him.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 13, 2015, 05:10:21 PM
The proof of the pudding will be in the eating ... it will be interesting to see if after the dust settles on the appeal ... Mr Amaral's presence as a pundit on Portuguese television holds the same sway.

Could be a nice little earner down the drain ... having Google read (LOL) some of the comments in the Portuguese press after the announcement of the judgement ... there are a lot of people in Portugal none too impressed by him.
Oh, but he's a national hero in Portugal isn't he?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on December 13, 2015, 06:19:28 PM
Oh, but he's a national hero in Portugal isn't he?

There are a lot of highly intelligent people in Portugal who have had the advantage over us of not requiring the terms of the judgement to be translated.

May I say from the comments I have worked my way through there are many who as a matter of honour deplore the disregard for the law which Mr Amaral has shown by walking rough shod over the rights of the individual, whatever they think of the Drs McCann.
There is also a resonance of the judge's opinion on the abuse of his official position.

It remains to be seen if the appeal judges concur ... I think there is an excellent chance they will.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on January 14, 2016, 02:57:07 AM
The Court of Appeal in Lisbon is certainly taking its time in making a decision in the McCann damages case but with so much at stake literally I suppose it was inevitable.  Hopefully the next few weeks will see this issue resolved.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on January 14, 2016, 08:39:00 AM
The Court of Appeal in Lisbon is certainly taking its time in making a decision in the McCann damages case but with so much at stake literally I suppose it was inevitable.  Hopefully the next few weeks will see this issue resolved.

Why is that certain?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 20, 2016, 10:34:32 PM
Oh, but he's a national hero in Portugal isn't he?

I don't belive  he is a 'national hero' anywhere. However , I think it is important to point out to the small minded skeptic [ censored word ]s here that Many people may not have read his book , or belives in his thesis, but they were/are outraged that he was denied freedom of expression to write a book about subject matter he had experience of.

Not to mention the disgusting way in which the McCanns set about getting the book banned, and their belated belief that the whole family including their 'missing daughter' were harmed by the contents of the said book. ( at the same time claiming being 'abducted' she came to no harm at all).. fantastic stuff.

It is also worth mentioning, that this behaviour did change the minds of many I spoke to at least, why they went after the co ordinator to get the book banned -it has  reverse psychology for many.  And then the pursuit of money just wreeks of ambulance chasing behaviour, even though they claimed they did not know the fate of their daughter, and it wasn't about the money!
________________________________________________________________________________________

So what will we know in a few weeks John?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on January 20, 2016, 11:00:27 PM
Goncalo Amaral once claimed in an interview that he was surprised when the McCanns raised the damages action against him one year after the book had been published.  Could it be that he sorely underestimated the issue at stake?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 20, 2016, 11:13:54 PM
Goncalo Amaral once claimed in an interview that he was surprised when the McCanns raised the damages action against him one year after the book had been published.  Could it be that he sorely underestimated the issue at stake?

Issue at stake ? The McCanns reputation? that is what this is about. nothing more> nothing less, well a million quid as well but that wasn't an issue. (chuckles)

Oh I took that to be him wondering why it took a whole year for them to use  the law. I mean, the book was about what he knew about the case along with some insight he had,his opinions etc. good ole detective story if you will.

What did you mean by this John? "Hopefully the next few weeks will see this issue resolved".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on January 20, 2016, 11:56:47 PM
Issue at stake ? The McCanns reputation? that is what this is about. nothing more> nothing less, well a million quid as well but that wasn't an issue. (chuckles)

Oh I took that to be him wondering why it took a whole year for them to use  the law. I mean, the book was about what he knew about the case along with some insight he had,his opinions etc. good ole detective story if you will.

What did you mean by this John? "Hopefully the next few weeks will see this issue resolved".

The Court of Appeal in Lisbon is certainly taking its time in making a decision in the McCann damages case but with so much at stake literally I suppose it was inevitable.  Hopefully the next few weeks will see this issue resolved.

A decision in the damages case appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 21, 2016, 11:27:11 AM
Goncalo Amaral once claimed in an interview that he was surprised when the McCanns raised the damages action against him one year after the book had been published.  Could it be that he sorely underestimated the issue at stake?

I don't imagine either side expected it to be entering it's eighth year.

Ah ! well a-day ! what evil looks
Had I from old and young !
Instead of the cross, the Albatross
About my neck was hung.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 21, 2016, 07:41:48 PM
I don't imagine either side expected it to be entering it's eighth year.

Ah ! well a-day ! what evil looks
Had I from old and young !
Instead of the cross, the Albatross
About my neck was hung.


Very poignant Alice.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 21, 2016, 08:32:17 PM
Goncalo Amaral once claimed in an interview that he was surprised when the McCanns raised the damages action against him one year after the book had been published.  Could it be that he sorely underestimated the issue at stake?

At one point he seemed to be in favour of it... something about enticing bulls into a ring in order to fight. Or something.

Not sure I could find the reference to this so many years later.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on January 21, 2016, 08:55:04 PM
At one point he seemed to be in favour of it... something about enticing bulls into a ring in order to fight. Or something.

Not sure I could find the reference to this so many years later.

Amaral did say, "Bring it on.  I want them to sue me."  And so they did.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 21, 2016, 10:00:25 PM
Amaral did say, "Bring it on.  I want them to sue me."  And so they did.
What 's that saying - be careful what you wish for?  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on January 21, 2016, 10:26:44 PM
What 's that saying - be careful what you wish for?  @)(++(*

Oh, I think it was a bit more serious than that.  Like, You and whose bleeidin army?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 21, 2016, 10:28:29 PM
Amaral did say, "Bring it on.  I want them to sue me."  And so they did.

Quote
'Target was hit, Gonçalo Amaral was convicted'... Marcos Aragão Correia, Leonor Cipriano's Lawyer
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 21, 2016, 10:32:59 PM
Quote
'Target was hit, Gonçalo Amaral was convicted'... Marcos Aragão Correia, Leonor Cipriano's Lawyer

is there a credible source for this?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on January 21, 2016, 10:37:05 PM
Quote
'Target was hit, Gonçalo Amaral was convicted'... Marcos Aragão Correia, Leonor Cipriano's Lawyer

And then Amaral lost his case against Correia.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 21, 2016, 11:20:02 PM

Q: Are you hoping the McCanns will sue you?


A: Yes! (here he gave a Portugese metaphor about a bullfight, something about having to first entice the bull into the middle of the ring before the fight can start).

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/25MAY9/GONCALO_AMARAL_05_05_2009.htm
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on January 22, 2016, 12:19:22 AM
Q: Are you hoping the McCanns will sue you?


A: Yes! (here he gave a Portugese metaphor about a bullfight, something about having to first entice the bull into the middle of the ring before the fight can start).

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/25MAY9/GONCALO_AMARAL_05_05_2009.htm

Perhaps he assumed they didn't have enough money to sue him ? I'm sure he never imagined that they would stoop so low as to use the fund set up to find their daughter to bankroll their reputation litigation against him.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on January 22, 2016, 09:00:04 AM
Perhaps he assumed they didn't have enough money to sue him ? I'm sure he never imagined that they would stoop so low as to use the fund set up to find their daughter to bankroll their reputation litigation against him.

How low do you think they stooped Faith  -  when they put hundreds of thousands of £s of their own money into the fund and gave thousands of £s to charity  - money which they were perfectly entitled to put into their own private bank accounts had they so wished?


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on January 22, 2016, 09:13:13 AM
Perhaps he assumed they didn't have enough money to sue him ? I'm sure he never imagined that they would stoop so low as to use the fund set up to find their daughter to bankroll their reputation litigation against him.

So he was bluffing then, in your opinion?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 09:18:23 AM
How low do you think they stooped Faith  -  when they put hundreds of thousands of £s of their own money into the fund and gave thousands of £s to charity  - money which they were perfectly entitled to put into their own private bank accounts had they so wished?

Ah the 'poor me' mccann mantra.

Entitled to benice ?

Why should the mccanns be entitled to anything ?

Their behaviour triggered this whole case .

By the way , what happened to the money from the serialization rights in the sun ?

The mccanns also got into financial difficulties very quickly after Madeleine disappeared, hence the fund was used to pay 2 mortgage payments, before it was repaid. Before that, both were working, now only gerry mccann is.

Mmm.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on January 22, 2016, 09:52:42 AM
How low do you think they stooped Faith  -  when they put hundreds of thousands of £s of their own money into the fund and gave thousands of £s to charity  - money which they were perfectly entitled to put into their own private bank accounts had they so wished?

it is not their 'own money' if it has been raised by telling potential donators that the money is going to the fund as it was with the book. Looking at their own Facebook page you can see how many people bought the book because they assumed they were aiding the search for a little girl.

If the McCanns are being honest and transparent about the money being donated why isn't there one single solitary word about paying libel lawyers in the fund's aims ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on January 22, 2016, 10:17:01 AM
it is not their 'own money' if it has been raised by telling potential donators that the money is going to the fund as it was with the book. Looking at their own Facebook page you can see how many people bought the book because they assumed they were aiding the search for a little girl.

If the McCanns are being honest and transparent about the money being donated why isn't there one single solitary word about paying libel lawyers in the fund's aims ?

As a donator myself and also someone who bought  Kate's book  - I have no objection whatsoever in their using the fund to expose the lies, half truths, lies by omission and spiteful innuendo made against them and their friends in Amarals book.   I'm pleased to know I helped in some small way. 

Strange how some people defend Amarals right to defend HIS reputation and to sue those who he thinks have besmirched it  - but object to the victims of his book having the same right to defend theirs and also their genuine belief that his book damaged the search for their daughter.

Where does it say in the Fund that the compensation for libel awarded to the McCanns and their friends i.e. some £850,000 must be put into the fund?   



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 22, 2016, 10:52:31 AM
As a donator myself and also someone who bought  Kate's book  - I have no objection whatsoever in their using the fund to expose the lies, half truths, lies by omission and spiteful innuendo made against them and their friends in Amarals book.   I'm pleased to know I helped in some small way. 

Strange how some people defend Amarals right to defend HIS reputation and to sue those who he thinks have besmirched it  - but object to the victims of his book having the same right to defend theirs and also their genuine belief that his book damaged the search for their daughter.

Where does it say in the Fund that the compensation for libel awarded to the McCanns and their friends i.e. some £850,000 must be put into the fund?

It doesn't but once the money is in the fund it no longer belongs to the Drs McCann and their friends, it belongs to the limited company and may only be spent how the articles of association and so on say.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2016, 11:25:13 AM
It doesn't but once the money is in the fund it no longer belongs to the Drs McCann and their friends, it belongs to the limited company and may only be spent how the articles of association and so on say.

The main purpose is to help find Madeleine. A former head of the investigation insists that she is dead, without proof, at every opportunity and is therefore not worth searching for.

The fact that empirical proof of the extent of damage couldn't be proven to the court's satisfaction is neither here nor there.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 11:30:13 AM
The main purpose is to help find Madeleine. A former head of the investigation insists that she is dead, without proof, at every opportunity and is therefore not worth searching for.

The fact that empirical proof of the extent of damage couldn't be proven to the court's satisfaction is neither here nor there.

I don't accept that, bearing in mind how little was spent on the search, which from memory is about 13%.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on January 22, 2016, 11:42:35 AM
it is not their 'own money' if it has been raised by telling potential donators that the money is going to the fund as it was with the book. Looking at their own Facebook page you can see how many people bought the book because they assumed they were aiding the search for a little girl.

If the McCanns are being honest and transparent about the money being donated why isn't there one single solitary word about paying libel lawyers in the fund's aims ?

The fund states that the money was to be used in the search for Madeleine and to help the parents.

If someone comes along and writes a book saying the child is dead and the parents are responsible for hiding her body.   Then the money [as it is there to help the family]   can use it in order to stop the accusations being made as the public will assume the child is dead and there is no need to continue to search for her or give any information regarding where she may be.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on January 22, 2016, 11:50:13 AM
The main purpose is to help find Madeleine. A former head of the investigation insists that she is dead, without proof, at every opportunity and is therefore not worth searching for.

The fact that empirical proof of the extent of damage couldn't be proven to the court's satisfaction is neither here nor there.

There must be loads of people who read his book and as a result of doing that agreed with him - especially as he deliberately left out the fact that he'd never met Kate or spoken to either Kate or Gerry.  Those readers thought they were getting a first hand account - when nothing could be further from the truth.

Unfortunately as there was no way to quantify the numbers who were convinced by his book - then proving it was not possible and so was not accepted by the court.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 11:52:36 AM
There must be loads of people who read his book and as a result of doing that agreed with him - especially as he deliberately left out the fact that he'd never met Kate or spoken to either Kate or Gerry.  Those readers thought they were getting a first hand account - when nothing could be further from the truth.

Unfortunately as there was no way to quantify the numbers who were convinced by his book - then proving it was not possible and so was not accepted by the court.

Then why should people accept kate mccanns version of events in her book ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2016, 11:56:35 AM
I don't accept that, bearing in mind how little was spent on the search, which from memory is about 13%.

You might want to search for the source of that assessment and have a look at what was taken into account.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 22, 2016, 11:59:51 AM
The fund states that the money was to be used in the search for Madeleine and to help the parents.

If someone comes along and writes a book saying the child is dead and the parents are responsible for hiding her body.   Then the money [as it is there to help the family]   can use it in order to stop the accusations being made as the public will assume the child is dead and there is no need to continue to search for her or give any information regarding where she may be.

It may say that on the website but the Articles of Association held at Companies House do not mention helping the parents. It was changed in 2011:
Objects
2B. The objects of the Foundation are:
2B.1.1 To secure the safe return to her family of Madeleine McCann who was abducted in Praia da Luz, Portugal on Thursday 3rd May 2007; and
2B.1.2 To procure that Madeleine's abduction is thoroughly investigated and that her abductors, as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them, are identified and brought to Justice.
2B.2 If the above objects are fulfilled then the objects of the Foundation shall be to pursue such purposes in similar cases arising in the United Kingdom, Portugal or elsewhere.


"The Fund" since inception has had a gross income in excess of £4.3MM; its assets at April 2015 were £750k ish.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 12:01:27 PM
You might want to search for the source of that assessment and have a look at what was taken into account.

Does that include staying at five star hotels and first class accomodation Carana ?


I wonder if people donating to the fund expected that ?

Hardly essential expenses.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2016, 12:40:36 PM
Does that include staying at five star hotels and first class accomodation Carana ?


I wonder if people donating to the fund expected that ?

Hardly essential expenses.

How many times have either of them stayed at "five star hotels"? And where is it stated that it was "first class accommodation?"

I remember one media rumpus over one short visit to Lisbon by Gerry at a 5-star hotel back in Jan 2009. I've just checked that one and today's best deal is £75 (and we are now 7 years later).

What do you find excessive, even at 2016 prices?

NB:

Have you checked the source and attributed costs of the "13%" yet?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 12:46:28 PM
How many times have either of them stayed at "five star hotels"? And where is it stated that it was "first class accommodation?"

I remember one media rumpus over one short visit to Lisbon by Gerry at a 5-star hotel back in Jan 2009. I've just checked that one and today's best deal is £75 (and we are now 7 years later).

What do you find excessive, even at 2016 prices?

NB:

Have you checked the source and attributed costs of the "13%" yet?

Indeed I have.

Some time ago.

If I recall correctly, from

Enid O'Dowds breakdown of the funds accounts.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2016, 12:51:14 PM
Indeed I have.

Some time ago.

Enid O'Dowds breakdown of the funds accounts.

OK. So what did it say to substantiate that only "13%" had been spent on searching then?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 12:54:38 PM
OK. So what did it say to substantiate that only "13%" had been spent on searching then?


This has been gone through numerous times before.

Look her up in reference to the mccanns.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2016, 01:04:05 PM


This has been gone through numerous times before.

Look her up in reference to the mccanns.

Oh go on, Stephen.... just a little tiny citiepoo? With a reference as to what that may have been based on?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on January 22, 2016, 01:12:07 PM
How many times have either of them stayed at "five star hotels"? And where is it stated that it was "first class accommodation?"

I remember one media rumpus over one short visit to Lisbon by Gerry at a 5-star hotel back in Jan 2009. I've just checked that one and today's best deal is £75 (and we are now 7 years later).

What do you find excessive, even at 2016 prices?

NB:

Have you checked the source and attributed costs of the "13%" yet?
Remember you need to multiply that cost per room by 2 (2 hotel rooms).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 01:15:38 PM
Oh go on, Stephen.... just a little tiny citiepoo? With a reference as to what that may have been based on?

This has been discussed extensively on here before.

However, if you believe you have the facts and figures, independently audited of course, to show how much the mccanns have spent on 'searching', please show them.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2016, 01:34:02 PM
This has been discussed extensively on here before.

However, if you believe you have the facts and figures, independently audited of course, to show how much the mccanns have spent on 'searching', please show them.

Hmmm. I wasn't the person making the allegation that only "13%" had been spent on searching...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2016, 01:50:55 PM
Remember you need to multiply that cost per room by 2 (2 hotel rooms).

Why?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 01:54:32 PM
Hmmm. I wasn't the person making the allegation that only "13%" had been spent on searching...

Are you totally incapable on reading up on this, on this forum or elsewhere ?

Well here's one link to help you on your way.

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/02/only-13-of-money-was-spent-looking-for.html


I await any independent forensic audit to show the claims of 13% are wrong.

Don't bother with the mccann supporting sites and blogs on this.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 02:02:21 PM
by Enid O’Dowd FCA, giving her opinion after analysis of the 'fund'.

http://mccannfundfraud.info/2010/02/a-forensic-examination-of-the-company-accounts/


THE CHOICE TO READ THE LINK IS YOURS.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2016, 02:32:29 PM
Are you totally incapable on reading up on this, on this forum or elsewhere ?

Well here's one link to help you on your way.

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/02/only-13-of-money-was-spent-looking-for.html


I await any independent forensic audit to show the claims of 13% are wrong.

Don't bother with the mccann supporting sites and blogs on this.

Enid O'Dowd didn't seriously cite a tabloid article by Levy as an authoritative source, did she?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 02:38:15 PM
Enid O'Dowd didn't seriously cite a tabloid article by Levy as an authoritative source, did she?

I presume you know what is meant by FCA ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2016, 02:38:40 PM
by Enid O’Dowd FCA, giving her opinion after analysis of the 'fund'.

http://mccannfundfraud.info/2010/02/a-forensic-examination-of-the-company-accounts/


THE CHOICE TO READ THE LINK IS YOURS.

Could you extract the bit that refers to only "13%" without having to wade through the whole thing?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 02:41:35 PM
Could you extract the bit that refers to only "13%" without having to wade through the whole thing?

Read the extract.

I feel sure you are capable of doing that.

By the way, there are numerous other references to that quantity.

Just use Google. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2016, 02:58:08 PM
Read the extract.

I feel sure you are capable of doing that.

By the way, there are numerous other references to that quantity.

Just use Google. 8((()*/

That doesn't answer my question concerning your allegation... surely it would be simple to extract what that was based on and post it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 03:00:47 PM
That doesn't answer my question concerning your allegation... surely it would be simple to extract what that was based on and post it?

The links are there, can't you read ?

and by the way, links to the figure quoted are widely available.

Yet you seem to be ignoring them
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on January 22, 2016, 03:03:43 PM
That doesn't answer my question concerning your allegation... surely it would be simple to extract what that was based on and post it?

It is a definitive statement.

It therefore requires a definitive answer.

I am beginning to suspect it is yet another unsupported slur passed from forum to forum until it becomes "fact". 
An appropriate cite will allay that suspicion.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 03:06:05 PM
It is a definitive statement.

It therefore requires a definitive answer.

I am beginning to suspect it is yet another unsupported slur passed from forum to forum until it becomes "fact". 
An appropriate cite will allay that suspicion.

Look up Enid O'Dowd.

She has no axe to grind.

Her analysis is widely available on the internet.

If you are saying otherwise, that is a lie.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2016, 03:06:25 PM
The links are there, can't you read ?

and by the way, links to the figure quoted are widely available.

Yet you seem to be ignoring them

What is the problem with posting a cite?

I try to, when possible.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on January 22, 2016, 03:06:56 PM
The links are there, can't you read ?

and by the way, links to the figure quoted are widely available.

Yet you seem to be ignoring them

Unnessasarily rude response to a civil request for a cite.  As required by forum rules. 

Grow up Stephen. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 03:09:11 PM
Unnessasarily rude response to a civil request for a cite.  As required by forum rules. 

Grow up Stephen.


Don't be stupid.

The cite has been provided.

Why are you and your fellows ignoring it.

Is it because it doesn't fit the mccann mantra ?

As to rudeness jp, don't preach with your history.


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id405.html
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2016, 03:10:32 PM
Look up Enid O'Dowd.

She has no axe to grind.

Her analysis is widely available on the internet.

If you are saying otherwise, that is a lie.

Hang on, Stephen... You made the allegation about the "13%" issue. Does that feature in Enid O'Dowd's analysis or not?

Simple question.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 03:13:43 PM
Hang on, Stephen... You made the allegation about the "13%" issue. Does that feature in Enid O'Dowd's analysis or not?

Simple question.

Read it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2016, 03:22:33 PM
Read it.

Is there a particular reason why I would have to wade through the whole thing to substantiate your allegation of the origin of the "13%" issue?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on January 22, 2016, 03:40:17 PM
Look up Enid O'Dowd.

She has no axe to grind.

Her analysis is widely available on the internet.

If you are saying otherwise, that is a lie.

This Enid o'dowd.  A completely impartial commentator on the case is she? 

And no connection with any of the 'sceptic community' then?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 22, 2016, 03:45:30 PM
Here is the relevant passage from Stephen's link - lol.

Quote
Percentage of money received spent on search for Madeleine

It has been stated in the media, probably inaccurately, that only 13% of expenditure for this period related to searching for Madeleine. However, it is not clear what this percentage actually is because some of the cost headings require clarification, in particular legal and professional fees.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2016, 03:47:24 PM
@ Stephen, the "13%" was raised in the press at a point in time.

Perhaps it simply stayed in your memory as verified fact? 

Everyone has memories of "facts" which may or may not be accurate (myself included)... hardly surprising in a case that has been discussed over such a long time.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2016, 04:00:27 PM
Here is the relevant passage from Stephen's link - lol.


Thanks, Alfie.

Quote

    Percentage of money received spent on search for Madeleine

    It has been stated in the media, probably inaccurately, that only 13% of expenditure for this period related to searching for Madeleine. However, it is not clear what this percentage actually is because some of the cost headings require clarification, in particular legal and professional fees.


Do forensic analyses by chartered accountants normally rely on the tabloids for their information?

She does say that it is "probably inaccurate"... but isn't the remit of a forensic analysis to examine the actual accounts in detail, as opposed to waving a vague doubt based on tabloid analysis?

Or perhaps I'm missing something...



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2016, 04:23:50 PM
Ia this the same Enid O'Dowd who travelled from wherever expecting to give evidence to support Bennett concerning the Madeleine Fund at his trial on a charge of contempt of court?

Or are one or both different people with identical names in the same court room on the same date over an issue concerning the same missing child?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 22, 2016, 04:30:12 PM
Ia this the same Enid O'Dowd who travelled from wherever expecting to give evidence to support Bennett concerning the Madeleine Fund at his trial on a charge of contempt of court?

Or are they both different people with identical names in the same court room on the same date over an issue concerning the same missing child?
Yes it's the same person - no axe to grind whatsoever, no sirree bob.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on January 22, 2016, 04:31:45 PM
Ia this the same Enid O'Dowd who travelled from wherever expecting to give evidence to support Bennett concerning the Madeleine Fund at his trial on a charge of contempt of court?

Or are they both different people with identical names in the same court room on the same date over an issue concerning the same missing child?

I think it must be a completely different O'Dowd, Carana.

The one Stephen is referring to here

"Look up Enid O'Dowd.

She has no axe to grind."

Cannot possibly be the one who is a mate of Bennetts and a member of his site.  Definitely not. Oh dear me no.  Just a co-incidence.   *&*%£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 05:03:17 PM
.. and of course no mccann supporter on here has an axe to grind either on behalf of the mccanns.

As to Ms. O'Dowd, exemplary in her work and no one has contermanded her analysis of the accounts.

and we have yet to here from any mccann source an independently audited figure of the money spent on 'searching'. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2016, 05:06:45 PM
.. and of course no mccann supporter on here has an axe to grind either on behalf of the mccanns.

As to Ms. O'Dowd, exemplary in her work and no one has contermanded hee analysis of the accounts.

and we have yet to here from any mccann source teal independently audited figures of the money spent on 'searching'. 8)-)))

I'm still back to the same question, Stephen... what substantiates the "13%" allegation?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 05:09:59 PM
I'm still back to the same question, Stephen... what substantiates the "13%" allegation?

As I said that comes from the articles I have read.

Why haven't the mccanns given a precise breakdown of the money spent in 'searching' and of course verifiable ?

They promised full and open accounts.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on January 22, 2016, 05:35:30 PM
.. and of course no mccann supporter on here has an axe to grind either on behalf of the mccanns.

As to Ms. O'Dowd, exemplary in her work and no one has contermanded her analysis of the accounts.

and we have yet to here from any mccann source an independently audited figure of the money spent on 'searching'. 8)-)))

Stephen - you made the statement, so it is up to you to provide evidence.  You portrayed Enid O'dowd as someone with no axe to grind - really?. 

Having read her "analysis", my opinion differs from yours - in my view the "analysis" reeks of bias, and she is of course a mate of Bennetts and called by him as a witness in his court case so hardly unbiased.

1/10 for effort.  8(0(* 

As has been pointed out - even the "no axe to grind" FCA that you have cited says "  It has been stated in the media, probably inaccurately, that only 13% of expenditure for this period related to searching for Madeleine. However, it is not clear what this percentage actually is because some of the cost headings require clarification, in particular legal and professional fees"

So - where did the 13% claim come from?  Or do you wish to withdraw it? 

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 05:57:13 PM
Stephen - you made the statement, so it is up to you to provide evidence.  You portrayed Enid O'dowd as someone with no axe to grind - really?. 

Having read her "analysis", my opinion differs from yours - in my view the "analysis" reeks of bias, and she is of course a mate of Bennetts and called by him as a witness in his court case so hardly unbiased.

1/10 for effort.  8(0(* 

As has been pointed out - even the "no axe to grind" FCA that you have cited says "  It has been stated in the media, probably inaccurately, that only 13% of expenditure for this period related to searching for Madeleine. However, it is not clear what this percentage actually is because some of the cost headings require clarification, in particular legal and professional fees"

So - where did the 13% claim come from?  Or do you wish to withdraw it?

I will not withdraw that figure as it is given on numerous internet articles, as any search will reveal.

As to biased, O'Dowd is no more biased against the mccanns than you are biased in favour of them.

So JP how much of the funds have the mccanns spent on searching ? 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2016, 06:01:07 PM
I will not withdraw that figure as it is given on numerous internet articles, as any search will reveal.

As to biased, O'Dowd is no more biased against the mccanns than you are biased in favour of them.

So JP how much of the funds have the mccanns spent on searching ? 8**8:/:

So this "13%" wasn't actually the result of a forensic analysis then?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 06:25:30 PM
So this "13%" wasn't actually the result of a forensic analysis then?

Ask Ms. O'Dowd.

Now Carana how much of the fund have the mccanns spent searching ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 22, 2016, 06:38:24 PM
Ask Ms. O'Dowd.

Now Carana how much of the fund have the mccanns spent searching ?
you said it was 13%, why are you asking Carana?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on January 22, 2016, 06:38:53 PM
Ask Ms. O'Dowd.

Now Carana how much of the fund have the mccanns spent searching ?

Stephen - you made the statement.  It's up to you to back it up or withdraw it.

If you want your views to be taken seriously that is. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 07:09:16 PM
Stephen - you made the statement.  It's up to you to back it up or withdraw it.

If you want your views to be taken seriously that is.

Well I never.

Never seen that line before from a mccann supporter.

I have no intention of withdrawing that figure.

I did not make it up.

It is easily found by an Internet search.

Unlike of course amy independently verified figures from the mccanns demonstrating the among or percentage of the fund spent on the so called search.

As to being taken seriously JP,  do you really think I take you or other mccann supporters seriously, who day by day type the pro-mccann mantra on this forum ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 22, 2016, 07:14:42 PM
Well I never.

Never seen that line before from a mccann supporter.

I have no intention of withdrawing that figure.

I did not make it up.

It is easily found by an Internet search.

Unlike of course amy independently verified figures from the mccanns demonstrating the among or percentage of the fund spent on the so called search.

As to being taken seriously JP,  do you really think I take you or other mccann supporters seriously, who day by day type the pro-mccann mantra on this forum ?
So despite Enid O'Dowd (someone you appear to believe is very credible) doubting the accuracy of 13% you accept it as fact do you?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 07:30:40 PM
So despite Enid O'Dowd (someone you appear to believe is very credible) doubting the accuracy of 13% you accept it as fact do you?

The figure could well be correct.

I did not make the figure up. It has been circulating for some time.

All the mccann have to do, is as they promised, give full and open accounts of the fund.

O'Dowd's breakdown of the 'fund' does make some interesting reading.

It doesn't take much, does it ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on January 22, 2016, 07:33:29 PM
Well I never.

Never seen that line before from a mccann supporter.

I have no intention of withdrawing that figure.

I did not make it up.

It is easily found by an Internet search.

Unlike of course amy independently verified figures from the mccanns demonstrating the among or percentage of the fund spent on the so called search.

As to being taken seriously JP,  do you really think I take you or other mccann supporters seriously, who day by day type the pro-mccann mantra on this forum ?

Oh dear Stephen - I've got to hand it to you.  By citing Enid o'dowd you have successfully disproved your own statement about the '13%' - absolute genius!!

Can't wait for the next one.   8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 07:34:57 PM
Oh dear Stephen - I've got to hand it to you.  By citing Enid o'dowd you have successfully disproved your own statement about the '13%' - absolute genius!!

Can't wait for the next one.   8(0(*

She neither confirmed or dismissed the figure.

Now jp, what percentage of the fund has been spent on 'searching' ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 07:40:28 PM
...and just to help you a little further.

http://frommybigdesk.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/mccanns-spent-only-13-of-madeleine-fund.html

The "Madeleine," Fund received nearly 3 million Euros from private donors, but the accounts do not explain where all the money has gone and do not even mention payments on the McCanns' mortgage or mobile phones.
See the original Madeleine Fund accounts (in English) on the SOS Madeleine McCann web site.

The fund, "Leaving No Stone Unturned Limited," created by Kate and Gerry McCann, nine days after Madeleine's disappearance from the apartment in Praia da Luz, received, up to March 2008, nearly three million Euros in donations, but only 13.3% of the money has been squandered, the couple say, in the investigations to find their daughter.

The Madeleine Fund accounts from May 2007 to March 2008 were only disclosed after TVI touched on a few aspects of the use to which the McCanns put the money, in the programme "As Tardes da Julia."

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2016, 07:45:57 PM
...and just to help you a little further.

http://frommybigdesk.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/mccanns-spent-only-13-of-madeleine-fund.html

The "Madeleine," Fund received nearly 3 million Euros from private donors, but the accounts do not explain where all the money has gone and do not even mention payments on the McCanns' mortgage or mobile phones.
See the original Madeleine Fund accounts (in English) on the SOS Madeleine McCann web site.

The fund, "Leaving No Stone Unturned Limited," created by Kate and Gerry McCann, nine days after Madeleine's disappearance from the apartment in Praia da Luz, received, up to March 2008, nearly three million Euros in donations, but only 13.3% of the money has been squandered, the couple say, in the investigations to find their daughter.

The Madeleine Fund accounts from May 2007 to March 2008 were only disclosed after TVI touched on a few aspects of the use to which the McCanns put the money, in the programme "As Tardes da Julia."


 LOL

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 07:50:48 PM

 LOL


Here's two letters to describe the effectiveness of the 'search'.

FC


Now how much did the mccanns spend on 'searching' then ?

I'm still waiting an answer.

I have given cites, whilst you and the rest of your compatriots have given two more letters of the alphabet. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2016, 08:05:27 PM

Here's two letters to describe the effectiveness of the 'search'.

FC


Now how much did the mccanns spend on 'searching' then ?

I'm still waiting an answer.

I have given cites, whilst you and the rest of your compatriots have given two more letters of the alphabet. 8)-)))

I'm not sure what FC means... Football Club? Or something rude?

You have tried, Stephen, I'll grant you that.

It was a sensationalist anti-McCann headline at the time which seems to have lasted as "fact".

What is the 13% meant to include?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 08:12:13 PM
I'm not sure what FC means... Football Club? Or something rude?

You have tried, Stephen, I'll grant you that.

It was a sensationalist anti-McCann headline at the time which seems to have lasted as "fact".

What is the 13% meant to include?

I'm still waiting for the figures for what the mccanns spent on searching ?

Something tells me you or the others can't answer that one, and of course independently verified.

FC represents the 'standard' of the mccann searches.

It's not too hard to work out.

and it's not rude, merely descriptive. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 22, 2016, 08:17:18 PM
This is drifting off topic, however:
Does it really matter whether or not it was 13% spent on searching ?. One could argue quite convincingly that all expenditure was on searching as that is the primary objective of the company and there appear to be no objections raised by the auditors i the reports published.
Without doubt “The Fund”  has spent ca £3.3MM in an attempt to achieve the following objectives.
2B.1.1 To secure the safe return to her family of Madeleine McCann who was abducted in Praia da Luz, Portugal on Thursday 3rd May 2007; and
2B.1.2 To procure that Madeleine's abduction is thoroughly investigated and that her abductors, as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them, are identified and brought to Justice.


So why not have a review of what has been achieved after eight and a bit years and lobbing out £3.3MM?.
Including but not limited to:
How many of the stated objectives have been achieved?
Does progress thus far represent value for money?
What is the estimated level of funding to achieve any outstanding objectives?.
How will this funding be raised?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2016, 08:35:37 PM
This is drifting off topic, however:
Does it really matter whether or not it was 13% spent on searching ?. One could argue quite convincingly that all expenditure was on searching as that is the primary objective of the company and there appear to be no objections raised by the auditors i the reports published.
Without doubt “The Fund”  has spent ca £3.3MM in an attempt to achieve the following objectives.
2B.1.1 To secure the safe return to her family of Madeleine McCann who was abducted in Praia da Luz, Portugal on Thursday 3rd May 2007; and
2B.1.2 To procure that Madeleine's abduction is thoroughly investigated and that her abductors, as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them, are identified and brought to Justice.


So why not have a review of what has been achieved after eight and a bit years and lobbing out £3.3MM?.
Including but not limited to:
How many of the stated objectives have been achieved?
Does progress thus far represent value for money?
What is the estimated level of funding to achieve any outstanding objectives?.
How will this funding be raised?


You're not suggesting that the board of directors don't consider such questions, are you?


Getting an investigation reopened in Portugal seems to have required somewhat more effort than a "stamp on a letter" (as Amaral et al., asserted at one point).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on January 22, 2016, 09:26:48 PM
...and just to help you a little further.

http://frommybigdesk.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/mccanns-spent-only-13-of-madeleine-fund.html

The "Madeleine," Fund received nearly 3 million Euros from private donors, but the accounts do not explain where all the money has gone and do not even mention payments on the McCanns' mortgage or mobile phones.
See the original Madeleine Fund accounts (in English) on the SOS Madeleine McCann web site.

The fund, "Leaving No Stone Unturned Limited," created by Kate and Gerry McCann, nine days after Madeleine's disappearance from the apartment in Praia da Luz, received, up to March 2008, nearly three million Euros in donations, but only 13.3% of the money has been squandered, the couple say, in the investigations to find their daughter.

The Madeleine Fund accounts from May 2007 to March 2008 were only disclosed after TVI touched on a few aspects of the use to which the McCanns put the money, in the programme "As Tardes da Julia."

You are actually citing Jill Havern, and Duarte Levy as impartial sources Stephen?   

A small piece of advice for you - when you are in a hole - STOP DIGGING!

 *&*%£ *&*%£ *&*%£



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 22, 2016, 09:35:34 PM
You are actually citing Jill Havern, and Duarte Levy as impartial sources Stephen?   

A small piece of advice for you - when you are in a hole - STOP DIGGING!

 *&*%£ *&*%£ *&*%£


Well as you are part of the pro mccann group on here, I treat your comments with the merit they deserve. 6&%5%

Yet you and the rest of your clan can't provide a real breakdown of how much money has been spent on 'searching'.

The mere fact that the 'searchers' could not organize a piss up in a brewery, as become a hallmark of the last few years.

I've seen a group of your fellows  trying to give an impartial breakdown of accounts  %£5&% %£5&% %&5%£

That was truly dire, but I'm sure you back them to the hilt.


Now I await a witty riposte.

 8((()*/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 22, 2016, 09:49:50 PM
Oh dear Stephen - I've got to hand it to you.  By citing Enid o'dowd you have successfully disproved your own statement about the '13%' - absolute genius!!

Can't wait for the next one.   8(0(*

Known in debate as a genetic fallacy.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 22, 2016, 09:57:06 PM
Known in debate as a genetic fallacy.

not really...more self contradiction
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on January 22, 2016, 09:58:59 PM
Known in debate as a genetic fallacy.

It shows a rare talent.  8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 22, 2016, 10:03:37 PM

You're not suggesting that the board of directors don't consider such questions, are you?


Getting an investigation reopened in Portugal seems to have required somewhat more effort than a "stamp on a letter" (as Amaral et al., asserted at one point).

Of course not!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on January 22, 2016, 10:24:30 PM
The fund states that the money was to be used in the search for Madeleine and to help the parents.

If someone comes along and writes a book saying the child is dead and the parents are responsible for hiding her body.   Then the money [as it is there to help the family]   can use it in order to stop the accusations being made as the public will assume the child is dead and there is no need to continue to search for her or give any information regarding where she may be.

Then why not be transparent about the fact ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2016, 10:39:36 PM
Of course not!

I didn't think so, but it was worth clarifying just in case it gives someone the idea to start yet a new petition to launch yet another full public inquiry with powers to summon witnesses...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 22, 2016, 10:57:09 PM
I didn't think so, but it was worth clarifying just in case it gives someone the idea to start yet a new petition to launch yet another full public inquiry with powers to summon witnesses...

I thought it might make a topic that didn't include a percentage and whether or not the "forensic accountant" was Boy George's mum  8(0(*. The latter could have a few legs in it I suppose.
At least we know the gross amount spent so there is no guesswork about it. Maybe that's why it will not take off ?{)(**
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on January 22, 2016, 11:14:00 PM
I thought it might make a topic that didn't include a percentage and whether or not the "forensic accountant" was Boy George's mum  8(0(*. The latter could have a few legs in it I suppose.
At least we know the gross amount spent so there is no guesswork about it. Maybe that's why it will not take off ?{)(**

The other problem is that it covers the period to 31st March 2008 - during which the pj were investigating, the mccanns were aguidos etc etc.  the Scope for private investigating was a bit limited.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on January 23, 2016, 02:10:36 AM
The fund states that the money was to be used in the search for Madeleine and to help the parents...(snip)
The aim "To provide support, including financial assistance, to Madeleine’s family" was removed by a special amendment many years ago, it is an ex-aim, it no longer exists.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 23, 2016, 09:15:03 AM
It shows a rare talent.  8(0(*

I was of course referring to your argument.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 23, 2016, 09:27:56 AM
I was of course referring to your argument.

We can take no responsibility for Jean's genes. 8)--))
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 23, 2016, 12:59:32 PM
The other problem is that it covers the period to 31st March 2008 - during which the pj were investigating, the mccanns were aguidos etc etc.  the Scope for private investigating was a bit limited.

That is just delineation for the sake of it.
It has no impact on "the company" having been set up to investigate what befell Madeleine McCann and to bring those responsible to justice. Broadly speaking all company costs are to those ends. Who did what with which and to whom is interesting and has the potential to generate n to the power of lots in posts but it will not alter £3.3MM ish having been spent on the company's objectives.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on January 23, 2016, 01:02:40 PM
We can take no responsibility for Jean's genes. 8)--))

Haha - that's really rather good.   8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on January 31, 2016, 10:42:56 PM
So basically are we all agreed that from the completely legal but rather brief accounts at CH it is impossible for anyone but a psychic to get any idea of how much income was recieved or how much was spent?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on February 01, 2016, 12:15:16 AM
So basically are we all agreed that from the completely legal but rather brief accounts at CH it is impossible for anyone but a psychic to get any idea of how much income was recieved or how much was spent?

I wonder at your continued beating of this particular drum and your exoneration of the totally opaque Goncalo Amaral Fund.  The published accounts of Madeleine's Fund ... a fund which has enabled and sustained the search for a missing child over the years no-one else was looking for her ... provide a legal summation and provide an indication of exactly what remains in the kitty.

The unpublished accounts of Goncalo Amaral's Fund ... a fund which has sustained six years of litigation ... remains entirely secretive about "how much income was received or how much was spent" and how much remains in the kitty.


Extract from the PJGA Manifesto
published on 11.06.2009

“The book “Maddie: A Verdade da Mentira” was subject to an injunction that sought not only the suspension of sales of the book and the DVD that was based on it, but also of any and all divulgation of the thesis that is defended by Dr. Gonçalo Amaral, author of the book and former Judiciary Police coordinator, about the ‘Madeleine McCann’ case.

Through this action, a ban was imposed not merely on the written work, but on an entire line of thought: the expression of an opinion, based on the facts of a police investigation; a rational, responsible, mature decision.

Nonetheless, said injunction was merely the tip of an iceberg. In the main action that it refers to, Madeleine’s parents seek to extort the sum of 1.2 million Euros from Dr. Gonçalo Amaral – an astronomical amount that is out of any proportion, both legal, and ethical.

A second injunction succeeded in apprehending belongings and professional income from the defendant, stifling his capacity to respond in financial terms, given the fact that judicial and process costs are indexed to the value that is demanded through the main action. In this manner, stripped of his freedom of expression and economically asphyxiated, the siege on a Man who, at huge personal and family cost, seeks nothing more than the reopening of a judicial process, in order to conclude an investigation that so many consider has been cut off halfway through, closes in.”

The Legal Defence Fund/Solidarity Account was constituted to support Gonçalo Amaral in his struggle to regain his inalienable Right to Freedom of Expression as consecrated in the Portuguese Republic’s Constitution exclusively through the payment of judicial expenses and whenever it is proved necessary.

Cheques or donations made out personally to Gonçalo Amaral and/or to his family members are not accepted, and will be returned.

Financial resources that are deemed excessive in the future will be delivered to a social institution, dedicated to support children in need.

More information at Press Release – Defence Fund and Charter of Principles.



Madeleine McCann's case has been reopened ... nothing at all to do with Mr Amaral's efforts.  All to do with the unprecedented efforts of Madeleine's much traduced parents.

**Quote
Amaral answers to the McCanns: exclusive interview to Portuguese newspaper "The Crime":

"I did what I could to help find Maddie, but, I made some mistakes".

The former PJ coordinator considers that "a cop is not obliged to obtain results", but to do the best he can. And he claims convinced that he is going to win the case which opposes him against the British couple about the injunction on his book. "Don´t underestimate me", he warns.**

Question: Don´t you think you had the obligation of finding little Maddie, just like the couple says?

Answer: A cop is not obliged to obtain results. He is obliged to do the best he can. That is what I and my Portuguese and British colleagues have done. With mistakes, I admit. I have already made the self-critic of the investigation in the book "The truth of lie".

Question: If mistakes were not made in the investigation, would it be possible to find the girl alive?

Answer: Maybe the girl could have been found. I cannot say more because of the injunction.
 **


Everyone makes mistakes but if he did the best he could it was a pretty poor show particularly if he admits to mistakes ... following the wrong thesis possibly one ... if his answer that the "girl could have been found" is anything to go by.

Probably the best plan of action would be to await the conclusion of his appeal against the award made against him for defamation.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on February 01, 2016, 12:34:02 AM
The initial injunction against Amaral's book was overturned and the McCanns, I think, got the bill. Now it's been banned by the defamation judge will they still have to pay that first legal bill or will the latest judgement change the first one?

Of course Amaral's fund is not in his name, it's just for his benefit. He has received none of the money and has no control over it. It is used only for legal fees, so we know where it goes.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on February 01, 2016, 08:17:33 AM
The initial injunction against Amaral's book was overturned and the McCanns, I think, got the bill. Now it's been banned by the defamation judge will they still have to pay that first legal bill or will the latest judgement change the first one?

Of course Amaral's fund is not in his name, it's just for his benefit. He has received none of the money and has no control over it. It is used only for legal fees, so we know where it goes.

That all sounds very simple and straightforward G - so why the decision NOT to publish what must be the equally 'simple and straightforward' accounts?   Maybe there is a good reason - but I for one can't think what it could be.

It seems discourteous to the donators to keep them completely in the dark - and even more discourteous not to even offer an explanation for that decision. 


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on February 01, 2016, 08:25:08 AM
That all sounds very simple and straightforward G - so why the decision NOT to publish what must be the equally 'simple and straightforward' accounts?   Maybe there is a good reason - but I for one can't think what it could be.

It seems discourteous to the donators to keep them completely in the dark - and even more discourteous not to even offer an explanation for that decision.

I don't think they actually want an explanation.  They are much more interested in demanding explanations from The McCanns.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on February 01, 2016, 09:26:00 AM
That all sounds very simple and straightforward G - so why the decision NOT to publish what must be the equally 'simple and straightforward' accounts?   Maybe there is a good reason - but I for one can't think what it could be.

It seems discourteous to the donators to keep them completely in the dark - and even more discourteous not to even offer an explanation for that decision.

I know more about it than I do about a certain other fund. Impressive to see someone say they have enough, I think;

Since it was started on April 29, 2015, by Leanne Baulch, the gofundme page dedicated to Gonçalo Amaral's defence has collected donations in excess of 50 thousand pounds. These funds have been transferred to the bank account that is held by Dr Paulo Sargento and other friends of Mr Amaral. Less than half of this amount has been spent on legal expenses for the defence of Gonçalo Amaral.

The Paypal account that is associated to the bank account has received over 6 thousand euro during the same period. Donations totaling a smaller amount have also been made directly to the bank account.

We believe that it is time to close the gofundme page, as the bank account currently stands at an amount that seems largely sufficient to face eventual future expenses.

As we await the verdict of the Appellate Court of Lisbon on the appeal that has been filed by Mr Amaral's lawyer, the remaining funds will be kept in the bank account. They will be used if necessary in the future. Any unused funds will, as we stated in 2009, be donated to a Portuguese children's charity.
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 01, 2016, 10:04:08 AM
I know more about it than I do about a certain other fund. Impressive to see someone say they have enough, I think;

Since it was started on April 29, 2015, by Leanne Baulch, the gofundme page dedicated to Gonçalo Amaral's defence has collected donations in excess of 50 thousand pounds. These funds have been transferred to the bank account that is held by Dr Paulo Sargento and other friends of Mr Amaral. Less than half of this amount has been spent on legal expenses for the defence of Gonçalo Amaral.

The Paypal account that is associated to the bank account has received over 6 thousand euro during the same period. Donations totaling a smaller amount have also been made directly to the bank account.

We believe that it is time to close the gofundme page, as the bank account currently stands at an amount that seems largely sufficient to face eventual future expenses.

As we await the verdict of the Appellate Court of Lisbon on the appeal that has been filed by Mr Amaral's lawyer, the remaining funds will be kept in the bank account. They will be used if necessary in the future. Any unused funds will, as we stated in 2009, be donated to a Portuguese children's charity.

It rather looks a though they think the case is over
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on February 01, 2016, 10:04:55 AM
I know more about it than I do about a certain other fund. Impressive to see someone say they have enough, I think;

Since it was started on April 29, 2015, by Leanne Baulch, the gofundme page dedicated to Gonçalo Amaral's defence has collected donations in excess of 50 thousand pounds. These funds have been transferred to the bank account that is held by Dr Paulo Sargento and other friends of Mr Amaral. Less than half of this amount has been spent on legal expenses for the defence of Gonçalo Amaral.

The Paypal account that is associated to the bank account has received over 6 thousand euro during the same period. Donations totaling a smaller amount have also been made directly to the bank account.

We believe that it is time to close the gofundme page, as the bank account currently stands at an amount that seems largely sufficient to face eventual future expenses.

As we await the verdict of the Appellate Court of Lisbon on the appeal that has been filed by Mr Amaral's lawyer, the remaining funds will be kept in the bank account. They will be used if necessary in the future. Any unused funds will, as we stated in 2009, be donated to a Portuguese children's charity.


I don't know who made that statement but without being able to see into the future how can anyone predict that the fund is now adequate to cover Amaral's ''future expenses'' ?

Sorry doesn't work for me G - because it still doesn't explain why they have decided not to publish the accounts.

It's not as if that would be a complicated exercise IMO.

I'm surprised  that you apparently have no problem at all in fully trusting the statement you posted.    What happened to ''Assume nothing, Believe nobody, Check everything'' ?   If ever there was a situation to justify that 'philosophy'  I would have thought this was it?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 01, 2016, 10:19:40 AM
One fund claiming to be transparent isn't, another making no such claims isn't. Now which one has a problem?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on February 01, 2016, 10:37:37 AM
One fund claiming to be transparent isn't, another making no such claims isn't. Now which one has a problem?

IMO Starti your post is off topic - as this isn't a comparison between two unrelated funds. 

Can you think of a reason WHY a decision has been taken by Amaral and his friends NOT to publish their accounts?

I can't.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 01, 2016, 10:43:27 AM
IMO Starti your post is off topic - as this isn't a comparison between two unrelated funds. 

Can you think of a reason WHY a decision has been taken by Amaral and his friends NOT to publish their accounts?

I can't.

Why do you need to know about a fund used for Amaral's legal needs ?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on February 01, 2016, 11:08:23 AM
Why do you need to know about a fund used for Amaral's legal needs ?

I don't.

I'm trying to think of a reason why a decision NOT to publish simple accounts was taken - and a statement issued instead.    Can you think of one?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 01, 2016, 11:09:46 AM
I don't.

I'm trying to think of a reason why a decision NOT to publish simple accounts was taken - and a statement issued instead.    Can you think of one?


Is the registered in the UK ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 01, 2016, 11:31:47 AM
I don't.

I'm trying to think of a reason why a decision NOT to publish simple accounts was taken - and a statement issued instead.    Can you think of one?

If there is no legal requirement to publish the accounts I wouldn't. That simple.
From the statement posted one can reasonably interpolate that the value of the "beer and baccy" fund is ca 60k Euros, the fund organiser has decided that is enough to meet the objective and has closed the inlet valve. Any surplus will be given to charity. What more do you need to know until the fund is closed?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on February 01, 2016, 01:42:20 PM
I don't.

I'm trying to think of a reason why a decision NOT to publish simple accounts was taken - and a statement issued instead.    Can you think of one?

You first have to demonstrate that the idea of publishing accounts was discussed and rejected.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Benice on February 01, 2016, 05:39:55 PM
You first have to demonstrate that the idea of publishing accounts was discussed and rejected.

I find it hard to believe that such a natural course of action as publishing simple and straightforward accounts for the benefit of those people who have donated -  would not have occurred to the people managing the accounts.   It seems the courteous thing to do IMO and also would have the added advantage of there being no room left for criticism.

If it was a difficult/expensive exercise to achieve - then I could at least understand that thinking to some extent -  but IMO that's not the case.    TBH I'm surprised that Amaral has not insisted that the accounts be published.  And I still can't think of a reason why they haven't been.  Can you?

IIRC the only reason given so far is that there is no legal requirement to do so.  That seems rather churlish to me.  (from memory so am happy to be corrected if necessary),


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on February 01, 2016, 07:05:32 PM
I find it hard to believe that such a natural course of action as publishing simple and straightforward accounts for the benefit of those people who have donated -  would not have occurred to the people managing the accounts.   It seems the courteous thing to do IMO and also would have the added advantage of there being no room left for criticism.

If it was a difficult/expensive exercise to achieve - then I could at least understand that thinking to some extent -  but IMO that's not the case.    TBH I'm surprised that Amaral has not insisted that the accounts be published.  And I still can't think of a reason why they haven't been.  Can you?

IIRC the only reason given so far is that there is no legal requirement to do so.  That seems rather churlish to me.  (from memory so am happy to be corrected if necessary),

I think it would be simplicity itself.  Particularly as we are told the money has been sought for one reason and one reason only ... the payment of legal fees.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on February 01, 2016, 07:41:50 PM
I find it hard to believe that such a natural course of action as publishing simple and straightforward accounts for the benefit of those people who have donated -  would not have occurred to the people managing the accounts.   It seems the courteous thing to do IMO and also would have the added advantage of there being no room left for criticism.

If it was a difficult/expensive exercise to achieve - then I could at least understand that thinking to some extent -  but IMO that's not the case.    TBH I'm surprised that Amaral has not insisted that the accounts be published.  And I still can't think of a reason why they haven't been.  Can you?

IIRC the only reason given so far is that there is no legal requirement to do so.  That seems rather churlish to me.  (from memory so am happy to be corrected if necessary),

AFAIK none the people who donated have expressed a desire to see details of what has been paid out.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on February 01, 2016, 07:45:15 PM
One fund claiming to be transparent isn't, another making no such claims isn't. Now which one has a problem?

You.

The McCanns' fund is transparent.

Just as it says on the tin.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on February 01, 2016, 07:46:29 PM
AFAIK none the people who donated have expressed a desire to see details of what has been paid out.

Has Enid O'Something donated? If so, when would this have been?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 01, 2016, 07:53:10 PM
You.

The McCanns' fund is transparent.

Just as it says on the tin.

Really, since when has it been transparent ?

Cite.

Next, another question I have asked before, where did the money from the serialization rights of the book in the sun go to ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on February 01, 2016, 08:07:54 PM
Has Enid O'Something donated? If so, when would this have been?

It would be interesting to see Ms O'Dowd carry out a forensic analysis of the Amaral account.

She has of the McCann ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 01, 2016, 08:11:34 PM
You.

The McCanns' fund is transparent.

Just as it says on the tin.

What was the income and expenditure last FY then?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on February 01, 2016, 08:24:52 PM
I'm (slowly) getting the hang of this, I think.

If it's in the file and Amaral states it, the McCanns can't touch him: hence the mantra of Amaral (and those who support him), it's all in the files.

But is it?

And what about stuff in the files, but contradicted by other stuff also in the files?

And what about half-truths?

It's in the files that Eddie scented death all over the place.

It's also in the files (both Grime and Harrison) that no evidential reliability can be placed on the reactions of the dogs.

What's the status of that one?

Amaral says Harrison turned the investigation into one for a little girl assumed dead.

That is a blatant lie (more pertinently, not in the files).  Amaral should lose the libel case outright on that point alone.

We can't definitively judge, but we can confidently predict that Amaral did not contradict and correct Prior on the forensic results.  If he (Amaral) did not, that is an assertion of Amaral's not in the files.

Amaral makes reference to the STU 100 and there is also reference to it in the files.  But Grime's reference makes plain he is not talking about the PdL investigation at all, while Amaral claims it was (used in the investigation).

And since Amaral's claim of its use is at variance with its actual use, we can be sure Amaral was lying.  Still, the key point; reference in the file, context bogus.

Does Amaral get away with that one?

So far as I am aware, there is no reference (at all!) in the file to the McCanns' fund.

Yet Amaral says it is fraudulent. 

What on earth is the basis of Amaral's appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on February 01, 2016, 08:27:32 PM
What was the income and expenditure last FY then?

I'm not an accountant and I don't know how to read accounts.

But those who can (and whose opinions I trust) tell me it's all in apple-pie order.

Perhaps Jean-Pierre would be a better one to answer that (for example, there are doubtless several others).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 01, 2016, 08:40:26 PM
I'm not an accountant and I don't know how to read accounts.

But those who can (and whose opinions I trust) tell me it's all in apple-pie order.

Perhaps Jean-Pierre would be a better one to answer that (for example, there are doubtless several others).


The only way they can do that is look at the P & L. It wasn't filed at companies house so the only way to know what is in it is to be on the inside as it were. Are you saying you know someone in "The Fund's" organisation or suggesting that J-P is part of "The Fund" or knows someone who is?.
I rather think not.

One bit of transparency is that up to FY 2014/2015 "The Fund had spent £3.3MM and come up empty handed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on February 01, 2016, 08:56:37 PM
I'm not an accountant and I don't know how to read accounts.

But those who can (and whose opinions I trust) tell me it's all in apple-pie order.

Perhaps Jean-Pierre would be a better one to answer that (for example, there are doubtless several others).

The balance sheet shows a slightly smaller total than the previous year. Can we assume they have spent a very small amount during the year? No we can't. They could have taken in thousands and spent it all plus a little bit. The accounts filed comply with the legal minimum requirements. They are not transparent by any stretch of the imagination.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 01, 2016, 09:50:49 PM
You.

The McCanns' fund is transparent.

Just as it says on the tin.

No it isn't.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 02, 2016, 03:48:31 AM
I'm not an accountant and I don't know how to read accounts.

But those who can (and whose opinions I trust) tell me it's all in apple-pie order.

Perhaps Jean-Pierre would be a better one to answer that (for example, there are doubtless several others).
It's the smallest apple-pie I ever saw Ferryman :)
Basically it contains just one number.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on February 02, 2016, 09:22:10 AM
I'm (slowly) getting the hang of this, I think.

If it's in the file and Amaral states it, the McCanns can't touch him: hence the mantra of Amaral (and those who support him), it's all in the files.

But is it?

And what about stuff in the files, but contradicted by other stuff also in the files?

And what about half-truths?

It's in the files that Eddie scented death all over the place.

It's also in the files (both Grime and Harrison) that no evidential reliability can be placed on the reactions of the dogs.

What's the status of that one?

Amaral says Harrison turned the investigation into one for a little girl assumed dead.

That is a blatant lie (more pertinently, not in the files).  Amaral should lose the libel case outright on that point alone.

We can't definitively judge, but we can confidently predict that Amaral did not contradict and correct Prior on the forensic results.  If he (Amaral) did not, that is an assertion of Amaral's not in the files.

Amaral makes reference to the STU 100 and there is also reference to it in the files.  But Grime's reference makes plain he is not talking about the PdL investigation at all, while Amaral claims it was (used in the investigation).

And since Amaral's claim of its use is at variance with its actual use, we can be sure Amaral was lying.  Still, the key point; reference in the file, context bogus.

Does Amaral get away with that one?

So far as I am aware, there is no reference (at all!) in the file to the McCanns' fund.

Yet Amaral says it is fraudulent. 

What on earth is the basis of Amaral's appeal?


     
Proven Facts in the Civil Trial: English Translation, 21 January 2015

Articles 27 and 28 – The answer to the question faces, firstly, the problem of dichotomy between "facts that have been ascertained in the inquiry" and "facts that are equally part of the inquiry". If one understood as facts that have been ascertained in the investigation those that, with rigour and according to procedural-penal dogmatism, resulted from the investigation, it is believed that only one would deserve that qualification – the disappearance of Madeleine MacCann. Everything that is part of the investigation, apart from that fact, is indicia, means of evidence, means of obtaining evidence and theses or hypotheses of fact, which is normal for an inquiry that has been archived due to a lack of evidence. Thus it is understood that, when one places side by side "facts that have been ascertained in the inquiry" and those that "are part of the inquiry" one is referring to the means of obtaining evidence, the means of evidence and indicia that make up the investigation itself and that are documented in the inquiry. Thus, from the reading of the book and the viewing of the documentary it is concluded that defendant Gonçalo Amaral uses, in his affirmations, mostly facts that did indeed take place and are documented in the inquiry (in the version that is available in this process). Some of the facts that were used are not complete (for example, from the report about Martin Smith's deposition – in the inquiry, page 1606 of Volume 6) – the part where the witness states that the person that he saw carrying a child in his arms did not do it "in a comfortable manner, showing a lack of habitude") and others that are contained in the book and in the documentary have not been included in the inquiry (v.g. the instructions that he gave to the picket when he heard about the disappearance – page 37 of the book; the statement attributed to the parents that the apartment showed break-in signs – page 44 of the book; Kate MacCann's discomfort over the speed of the car – page 55 of the book; the hypothesis of a reconstruction of events discussed in mid-May – page 94 of the book; the "informal" identification of Robert Murat by Jane Tanner – page 108).
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id505.html
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on February 02, 2016, 04:42:12 PM
I find this fascinating:


Lisbon Appeals Court Ruling 19 Oct 2010

PORTUGUESE COURT  PAGES 11 TO 20
 II - Legal basis and Reasons
The following facts were proved:


(...)

25 - Curricular articles were divulged on the Internet relating to the First Defendant, that spoke of him as a correct, structured, sociably adept man, namely to perform political roles.


 http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/court_docs.htm

Technically true, as some pro-Amaral sites have posters whose avatars involve a halo around his head and make numerous comments as to what a hero he is.... oh and GASP day and whatever else is invented.


However, that doesn't take into account the broader reality of his suspended criminal sentence over his involvement in the Cipriano torture trial.





Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 03, 2016, 02:46:45 AM
These accounts are the finest in the district.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on February 04, 2016, 09:37:12 PM
These accounts are the finest in the district.

*chortles*

and *chortles also* at the hubris or something not even close to  half magnanimous in thinking their last remaining 750k is going to make a difference.....and as IF any sane person would believe that in the first place......sad

They even had their own sister blabbing to the press that they were so hard up money  wise because they had to fund the search as well as run  their household....LooooooL ...i guess dear pat forgot the millions donated, bless



http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/madeleine-mccanns-aunt-explains-why-she-has-joined-1079005
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on February 05, 2016, 07:11:26 PM
These accounts are the finest in the district.

LOL, You've just lost all credibility as a serious poster!   ?{)(**
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2016, 07:16:46 PM
These accounts are the finest in the district.

Which district?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on February 05, 2016, 07:20:31 PM
I guess it all boils down to a question of what was found proved.

If it was found proved that those statements had been made, then fair enough.

If it was found proved that the statements were true then there is something seriously awry.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2016, 07:31:08 PM
I guess it all boils down to a question of what was found proved.

If it was found proved that those statements had been made, then fair enough.

If it was found proved that the statements were true then there is something seriously awry.

It was not within the remit of the judge to examine the veracity of anything in fhe files.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 06, 2016, 12:30:02 AM
It was not within the remit of the judge to examine the veracity of anything in fhe files.

so what the hell is happening with amaral's appeal.....not a very good advert for portuguese justice
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 06, 2016, 02:05:23 AM
Which district?
The Thurmond Street  district.
The ch accounts are the finest in the district because they are so clean.
Uncontaminated by details like income and expenditure.
They contain as much detail as there is cheese in a completely out-of-stock cheese shop.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 06, 2016, 02:45:56 AM
so what the hell is happening with amaral's appeal.....not a very good advert for portuguese justice
How many weeks since the appeal was lodged? Compare with the 40 odd weeks it took to come up with a bit of paper containing essentially just one number
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 06, 2016, 07:24:05 AM
The Thurmond Street  district.
The ch accounts are the finest in the district because they are so clean.
Uncontaminated by details like income and expenditure.
They contain as much detail as there is cheese in a completely out-of-stock cheese shop.

Very good.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 06, 2016, 08:33:32 AM
The Thurmond Street  district.
The ch accounts are the finest in the district because they are so clean.
Uncontaminated by details like income and expenditure.
They contain as much detail as there is cheese in a completely out-of-stock cheese shop.
yet still more crumbs to examine than those left by the mysterious disappearing Gonc Fund... &%+((£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on February 06, 2016, 12:18:57 PM
The Thurmond Street  district.
The ch accounts are the finest in the district because they are so clean.
Uncontaminated by details like income and expenditure.
They contain as much detail as there is cheese in a completely out-of-stock cheese shop.

Ha ha excellent. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on February 06, 2016, 01:08:25 PM
yet still more crumbs to examine than those left by the mysterious disappearing Gonc Fund... &%+((£

A "forensic examination" even.

Surely capable of turning up the icing on the cake ... after years of practice.   
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on February 07, 2016, 01:55:03 AM
A "forensic examination" even.

Surely capable of turning up the icing on the cake ... after years of practice.

When the mccanns publish their accounts as transparently as a charity which they promised but failed spectacularly to do, then you can criticise anyone elses accounts even if they never promised transparency...and to foam at the mouth at 50k versus 5 million is a total desperate  joke in any case LOL!!! and that ncludes the mccanns who their "pal" says are "exasperated" tough titties time! And how can anyne claiming a million be exasperated by a 50k donation lol...insane people?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 07, 2016, 02:13:53 AM
yet still more crumbs to examine than those left by the mysterious disappearing Gonc Fund... &%+((£
The MF accounts contain only one number, that's all.
The available figures for the gonc fund contain more than one number.
Therefore the figures provided by the gonc fund are certainly more detailed than than the MF accounts.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 07, 2016, 02:32:34 AM
Expenditure?
Normally sir yes, but today the van broke down.
Income?
Sorry, it got a bit runny and the cat's eaten it.
(bouzouki music playing in the background)

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on February 07, 2016, 02:49:21 AM
Expenditure?
Normally sir yes, but today the van broke down.
Income?
Sorry, it got a bit runny and the cat's eaten it.
(bouzouki music playing in the background)

Other company records filed at Company House don't give a breakdown of the Income & Expenditure online. I believe you have to pay for that (we pay £1000+ each year just for our unaudited accounts to be prepared & submitted to CH by our accountant - why should anyone else get that info for free?)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 07, 2016, 03:14:09 AM
But Misty I think your CH accounts give a total income figure and total expenditure figure.
MF this year don't.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on February 07, 2016, 03:30:34 AM
But Misty I think your CH accounts give a total income figure and total expenditure figure.
MF this year don't.

The returns submitted by the accountant do give breakdowns, as you say, but the only information available to the public is the cash in the bank, the assets & the liabilities. The gross/net turnover is not shown, or the amount of Corporation Tax we pay, nor do I think that is something which should be available other than to people who may wish to trade with us. Our accounts are probably more complex than LNSU.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on February 07, 2016, 03:34:37 AM
It wasnt their money they were soending, it was the publics.....ergo they had no RIGHT go hide anything
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on February 07, 2016, 03:49:44 AM
It wasnt their money they were soending, it was the publics.....ergo they had no RIGHT go hide anything

Pity you don't view the other "fund" in the same manner. Do you know how much PJGA raised in Holland & Germany?

Since OG was launched, I would imagine there has been precious little donated to the FMF by the general public. Most of the funding has probably come from private backers.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 07, 2016, 03:57:39 AM
The returns submitted by the accountant do give breakdowns, as you say, but the only information available to the public is the cash in the bank, the assets & the liabilities. The gross/net turnover is not shown, or the amount of Corporation Tax we pay, nor do I think that is something which should be available other than to people who may wish to trade with us. Our accounts are probably more complex than LNSU.
MF in latest CH filing does not state total income (in previous years it did).
So really all we can do is guess what its income is. 

In contrast, the gonc fund stated clearly its income, breaking it down into the two sources.

So the gonc fund informs its donators far better than MF does.
And BTW the gonc fund does not make its donators wait 9 months for info.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 07, 2016, 04:05:08 AM
Pity you don't view the other "fund" in the same manner. Do you know how much PJGA raised in Holland & Germany?

Since OG was launched, I would imagine there has been precious little donated to the FMF by the general public. Most of the funding has probably come from private backers.
Surely a non-profit company implementing the GGC should tell you the income total not leave you to "imagine" or guess it Misty?

The Gonc fund tells its donators what its income is (and exactly what it is spent on).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on February 07, 2016, 04:16:39 AM
Surely a non-profit company implementing the GGC should tell you the income total not leave you to "imagine" or guess it Misty?

The Gonc fund tells its donators what its income is (and exactly what it is spent on).

Is there not a facility to purchase the details any interested party may require on the relevant website?

And please - the PJGA does not tell all its donators what its income & expenditure is - or I would have been told.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 07, 2016, 07:50:18 AM
Why is it that mccann supporters are quite happy for the mccanns to have a fund which can pay their legal expenses, but not Amaral ?

Tough question. &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on February 07, 2016, 07:58:29 AM
Why is it that mccann supporters are quite happy for the mccanns to have a fund which can pay their legal expenses, but not Amaral ?

Tough question. &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+

Good Moaning, Stephen.  You and me both.  Personally, I don't much care what either side does with their Funds.  But how much longer do we have to wait for a decision?  The suspense is killing me.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on February 07, 2016, 08:03:48 AM
Good Moaning, Stephen.  You and me both.  Personally, I don't much care what either side does with their Funds.  But how much longer do we have to wait for a decision?  The suspense is killing me.

Was that a typo?

 *&*%£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on February 07, 2016, 08:07:57 AM
Why is it that mccann supporters are quite happy for the mccanns to have a fund which can pay their legal expenses, but not Amaral ?

Tough question. &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+

Not tough at all Stephen.  And as usual with your 'pronouncements' not even true. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 07, 2016, 08:11:57 AM
Not tough at all Stephen.  And as usual with your 'pronouncements' not even true.

I should have said most mccann supporters, other than that, quite accurate.

Do remember,  the views of mccann supporters are quite 'visible' on certain sites as regards Amaral.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 07, 2016, 08:13:55 AM
Good Moaning, Stephen.  You and me both.  Personally, I don't much care what either side does with their Funds.  But how much longer do we have to wait for a decision?  The suspense is killing me.

This sounds like an episode of 'Allo 'Allo.

I fail shirley we shall newt swoon. &%5y%
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on February 07, 2016, 08:16:01 AM
Was that a typo?

 *&*%£

No.  Just my ghastly French pronunciation.  Allo Allo.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on February 07, 2016, 08:40:27 AM
Other company records filed at Company House don't give a breakdown of the Income & Expenditure online. I believe you have to pay for that (we pay £1000+ each year just for our unaudited accounts to be prepared & submitted to CH by our accountant - why should anyone else get that info for free?)

In order to work out how much tax you owe your accountant has to produce a profit and loss account. There's no other way to do it. A profit and loss account shows the totals of everything received and spent during the year.

You should examine that to make sure you are making a decent profit and to identify areas of overspending which could be adjusted to give you a better profit margin in the future.

Your accountant may not file the P & L with CH but he should give it to you in his report, along with the Balance Sheet. The P & L has to be filed with the Inland Revenue so they can check the Tax and NI calculations. If they decide to inspect your figures they will visit and ask to see all the evidence used to produce the totals. That's why you have to keep it all for six years, they can query the figures at any time during that period.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on February 07, 2016, 08:46:14 AM
The returns submitted by the accountant do give breakdowns, as you say, but the only information available to the public is the cash in the bank, the assets & the liabilities. The gross/net turnover is not shown, or the amount of Corporation Tax we pay, nor do I think that is something which should be available other than to people who may wish to trade with us. Our accounts are probably more complex than LNSU.

I doubt if you promised you were going to be transparent whatever the cost.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on February 07, 2016, 08:51:30 AM

Wandering Off Topic.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 08, 2016, 02:20:28 AM
Is there not a facility to purchase the details any interested party may require on the relevant website?

And please - the PJGA does not tell all its donators what its income & expenditure is - or I would have been told.
PJGA certainly does tell donators how much income it recieves.
In period 29 Apr 2015 to 21 Oct PJGA recieved >£50K through GFM and >E6K through PP.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on February 08, 2016, 02:39:18 AM
PJGA certainly does tell donators how much income it recieves.
In period 29 Apr 2015 to 21 Oct PJGA recieved >£50K through GFM and >E6K through PP.

LOL 6 months out of 6 years. What about the rest of the money donated - how much did that amount to? They're still promoting the Paypal button on Twitter about 50 times a day.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 08, 2016, 07:19:36 AM
LOL 6 months out of 6 years. What about the rest of the money donated - how much did that amount to? They're still promoting the Paypal button on Twitter about 50 times a day.

You really can't stomach that people have donated to Amaral's legal expenses.

I believe it has been stated any money left after the appeals process, will go to charity.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on February 08, 2016, 07:57:57 AM
You really can't stomach that people have donated to Amaral's legal expenses.

I believe it has been stated any money left after the appeals process, will go to charity.

Oh dear Stephen - It seems that all this 'objection' to amarals defence fund is all in your head.  Most sensible people see that a properly funded defence is essential to justice. 

Some however are concerned about the apparent double standards as regards transparency.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 08, 2016, 08:03:04 AM
Oh dear Stephen - It seems that all this 'objection' to amarals defence fund is all in your head.  Most sensible people see that a properly funded defence is essential to justice. 

Some however are concerned about the apparent double standards as regards transparency.

I anticipated that entirely predictable reply.

Sensible people do believe Amaral's fund is essential for justice.

However, I wasn't talking about sensible people.

As to transparency, tell that to the mccanns.

Oh, by the way, what happened to the money the mccanns received from serialization rights in the 'sun' ?

As to justice in this case, that would be the mccanns getting their just desserts for child neglect.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 08, 2016, 08:12:53 AM
I anticipated that entirely predictable reply.

Sensible people do believe Amaral's fund is essential for justice.

However, I wasn't talking about sensible people.

As to transparency, tell that to the mccanns.

Oh, by the way, what happened to the money the mccanns received from serialization rights in the 'sun' ?

I would say no one on this forum begrudges the donations to amaral's fund...the last thing we would want is posters claiming he has been denied justice...we want to savour the moment
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 08, 2016, 08:33:14 AM
It is quite remarkable that some people who want to see justice served, only compassion for the mccanns.

When of course the mccanns are responsible for setting in motion the chain of events leading to Madeleine's disappearance, and the clear hatred for Amaral seethes from their typing.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on February 08, 2016, 04:03:10 PM
I would say no one on this forum begrudges the donations to amaral's fund...the last thing we would want is posters claiming he has been denied justice...we want to savour the moment

The judge made her ruling based on Mr Amaral's breach of the Portuguese Constitution article 32(2) as well as his professional misconduct as a former public servant ... so as far as I am concerned, if people want to throw their money to be used for defending that it is entirely up to them.

The failure to recognise that anyone who wishes to make a donation to Madeleine's fund is similarly entitled to do what they wish with their money ... is I find, mind bending.

What on earth is holding up notification of the result of his appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on February 08, 2016, 11:23:07 PM
Either Portuguese justice is moving as slowly as usual or they are thinking very deeply about the case. If it's the latter, then it perhaps isn't quite such an obvious and simple case as some seem to believe. There's the view of the judge that it was right to ban the book again, thereby overturning a supreme Court decision. I bet that's caused some head scratching.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on February 08, 2016, 11:28:26 PM
Either Portuguese justice is moving as slowly as usual or they are thinking very deeply about the case. If it's the latter, then it perhaps isn't quite such an obvious and simple case as some seem to believe. There's the view of the judge that it was right to ban the book again, thereby overturning a supreme Court decision. I bet that's caused some head scratching.

Why?

The supreme court ruled on the right of free speech versus the right to reputation (both guaranteed by the Portuguese constitution).  Something had to give, and the McCanns' right to a good name gave ....

The ruling in the libel judgment was that Amaral was guilty of libel.

He might have gotten away with statements that lower reputation if they had been contained uncontradicted in the files.

They didn't.

So Amaral lost.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: blonk on February 08, 2016, 11:39:37 PM
Either Portuguese justice is moving as slowly as usual or they are thinking very deeply about the case. If it's the latter, then it perhaps isn't quite such an obvious and simple case as some seem to believe. There's the view of the judge that it was right to ban the book again, thereby overturning a supreme Court decision. I bet that's caused some head scratching.
The Portuguese justice system is an international joke (as confirmed time and again by international assessors)  - and the McCann v Amaral case has been the most deplorable of utter farces.

So far, it's taken them 6 years and 8 months and still they're way off a final verdict.

We've all been witness to this unending saga of judicial incompetence - and basically it's all about a bloke who wrote a book about a shelved investigation, the vast majority of which had been made public anyway by means of a handy and free DVD!

It's a very true saying that 'justice delayed is justice denied' - to both sides in this case   
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on February 08, 2016, 11:50:18 PM
Why?

The supreme court ruled on the right of free speech versus the right to reputation (both guaranteed by the Portuguese constitution).  Something had to give, and the McCanns' right to a good name gave ....

The ruling in the libel judgment was that Amaral was guilty of libel.

He might have gotten away with statements that lower reputation if they had been contained uncontradicted in the files.

They didn't.

So Amaral lost.

If you can't see a contradiction there that's fine. I can. Supreme Court; freedom of speech trumps the right to reputation. Libel judge; Right to reputation trumps the right to freedom of speech. That wasn't her actual ruling, but the effect of her ruling was to curtail his freedom of speech.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 08, 2016, 11:57:59 PM
In the period 29 Apr 2015 to 21 Oct 2015 PJGA recieved >£50K through GFM and >E6K through PP.
I compliment PJGA on their transparent reporting to donaters.
What was MF's income in the same period?
Even supporters can only imagine or guess.
Because MF haven't released any figures at all for that period, and possibly won't until late Dec 2016.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on February 09, 2016, 12:04:52 AM
The Portuguese justice system is an international joke (as confirmed time and again by international assessors)  - and the McCann v Amaral case has been the most deplorable of utter farces.

So far, it's taken them 6 years and 8 months and still they're way off a final verdict.

We've all been witness to this unending saga of judicial incompetence - and basically it's all about a bloke who wrote a book about a shelved investigation, the vast majority of which had been made public anyway by means of a handy and free DVD!

It's a very true saying that 'justice delayed is justice denied' - to both sides in this case   

Very true.Six years ago a quick decision might have been relevant. At this stage everyone who wants to has read the book. Everyone who wants to has read the files on which the book is (mostly) based. Whatever the outcome no-one wins really.

If the McCanns were trying to clean up their reputations that hasn't happened. For those who believe in them their reputations were never tarnished anyway and for those who don't the final judgement won't change their minds. I suppose they'll enjoy having his money, if they get it and telling the newspapers how it 'wasn't about the money' and it'll all be used for 'the search' (unless they have to pay lawyers to sue someone else, of course).

At this stage I expect Amaral has become accustomed to being poorer than he expected, so the money will be no loss. I think his faith in Portuguese justice system will be dented and he cares about that, rather misguidedly in my opinion.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on February 09, 2016, 12:19:42 AM
In the period 29 Apr 2015 to 21 Oct 2015 PJGA recieved >£50K through GFM and >E6K through PP.
I compliment PJGA on their transparent reporting to donaters.
What was MF's income in the same period?
Even supporters can only imagine or guess.
Because MF haven't released any figures at all for that period, and possibly won't until late Dec 2016.
PJGA  reported on sums of money donated which were publicly available on the GFM site. Precious little else.
The amount required by the FMF is unquantifiable as the administrators of the fund have no idea how much expenditure may or may not be required in the future.
Amaral's needs, on the other hand, are quantifiable & current donations are destined for a Portuguese. charity if the PJGA  statement is anything to go by. Why is the appeal still running? And why did someone want to raise £300,000 for the man last year?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 09, 2016, 07:22:10 AM
If you can't see a contradiction there that's fine. I can. Supreme Court; freedom of speech trumps the right to reputation. Libel judge; Right to reputation trumps the right to freedom of speech. That wasn't her actual ruling, but the effect of her ruling was to curtail his freedom of speech.

the supreme court did not take libel into account as it had not been proved...there is absolutely no contradictions between the two judgements
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 09, 2016, 07:24:25 AM
Very true.Six years ago a quick decision might have been relevant. At this stage everyone who wants to has read the book. Everyone who wants to has read the files on which the book is (mostly) based. Whatever the outcome no-one wins really.

If the McCanns were trying to clean up their reputations that hasn't happened. For those who believe in them their reputations were never tarnished anyway and for those who don't the final judgement won't change their minds. I suppose they'll enjoy having his money, if they get it and telling the newspapers how it 'wasn't about the money' and it'll all be used for 'the search' (unless they have to pay lawyers to sue someone else, of course).

At this stage I expect Amaral has become accustomed to being poorer than he expected, so the money will be no loss. I think his faith in Portuguese justice system will be dented and he cares about that, rather misguidedly in my opinion.

I think amaral will be totally devastated if the judgement goes against him which I am sure it will
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on February 09, 2016, 08:07:33 AM
If you can't see a contradiction there that's fine. I can. Supreme Court; freedom of speech trumps the right to reputation. Libel judge; Right to reputation trumps the right to freedom of speech. That wasn't her actual ruling, but the effect of her ruling was to curtail his freedom of speech.

Amaral does not have a right to spread disinformation and lies, either by Portuguese libel laws or the Portuguese constitution.

Lies he told:

Harrison changed the enquiry to one for a little girl assumed dead (oh no he did not)

Prior contradicted and 'corrected' Prior on interpretation of the forensic results and Prior berated the FSS on the PJ's powers of arrest.

We can confidently predict that's a lie.

The Scent Transfer Unit detects cadaver odour.  It detects (and stores) scents of living people.

The McCanns set up a fraudulent fund.  The fund is not mentioned at all in the files, and there's no evidence it is fraudulent.

Madeleine died in the apartment (says Amaral).  On what evidence?

Grime and Harrison both say no evidential reliability can be placed on the reactions of the dogs.

All reasons why Amaral's book is not based on the files and why he is likely to lose his appeal (if he hasn't already).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 09, 2016, 08:18:46 AM
Amaral does not have a right to spread disinformation and lies, either by Portuguese libel laws or the Portuguese constitution.

Lies he told:

Harrison changed the enquiry to one for a little girl assumed dead (oh no he did not)

Prior contradicted and 'corrected' Prior on interpretation of the forensic results and Prior berated the FSS on the PJ's powers of arrest.

We can confidently predict that's a lie.

The Scent Transfer Unit detects cadaver odour.  It detects (and stores) scents of living people.

The McCanns set up a fraudulent fund.  The fund is not mentioned at all in the files, and there's no evidence it is fraudulent.

Madeleine died in the apartment (says Amaral).  On what evidence?

Grime and Harrison both say no evidential reliability can be placed on the reactions of the dogs.

All reasons why Amaral's book is not based on the files and why he is likely to lose his appeal (if he hasn't already).

Crime remains undetermined ferryman, no matter how much you may fantasize about abduction.

It does not make abduction real.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 09, 2016, 08:22:04 AM
Crime remains undetermined ferryman, no matter how much you may fantasize about abduction.

It does not make abduction real.


this thread is about the court case......
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 09, 2016, 08:26:31 AM
Amaral does not have a right to spread disinformation and lies, either by Portuguese libel laws or the Portuguese constitution.

Lies he told:

Harrison changed the enquiry to one for a little girl assumed dead (oh no he did not)

Prior contradicted and 'corrected' Prior on interpretation of the forensic results and Prior berated the FSS on the PJ's powers of arrest.

We can confidently predict that's a lie.

The Scent Transfer Unit detects cadaver odour.  It detects (and stores) scents of living people.

The McCanns set up a fraudulent fund.  The fund is not mentioned at all in the files, and there's no evidence it is fraudulent.

Madeleine died in the apartment (says Amaral).  On what evidence?

Grime and Harrison both say no evidential reliability can be placed on the reactions of the dogs.

All reasons why Amaral's book is not based on the files and why he is likely to lose his appeal (if he hasn't already).

Amaral's theory of accidental death remains as plausible as any other scenario.

It hasn't been disproved.

The forensic results neither confirmed or dismissed it.

There is certainly NO FORENSIC EVIDENCE of abduction.

and this remains entirely relevant to this thread and the appeal.

After all, but for the mccanns actions, this thread along with the rest, would not exist.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on February 09, 2016, 09:20:17 AM
Amaral does not have a right to spread disinformation and lies, either by Portuguese libel laws or the Portuguese constitution.

Lies he told:

Harrison changed the enquiry to one for a little girl assumed dead (oh no he did not)

Prior contradicted and 'corrected' Prior on interpretation of the forensic results and Prior berated the FSS on the PJ's powers of arrest.

We can confidently predict that's a lie.

The Scent Transfer Unit detects cadaver odour.  It detects (and stores) scents of living people.

The McCanns set up a fraudulent fund.  The fund is not mentioned at all in the files, and there's no evidence it is fraudulent.

Madeleine died in the apartment (says Amaral).  On what evidence?

Grime and Harrison both say no evidential reliability can be placed on the reactions of the dogs.

All reasons why Amaral's book is not based on the files and why he is likely to lose his appeal (if he hasn't already).

There has been no ruling on the truth or otherwise of the book. It wasn't banned because it was judged untruthful, much as you'd like to think so.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on February 09, 2016, 09:48:28 AM
There has been no ruling on the truth or otherwise of the book. It wasn't banned because it was judged untruthful, much as you'd like to think so.

Amaral could get away with lies so long as those lies were reflected in what's written in the files; or more pertinently not contradicted in the files.

Hence, he will not get away with saying Eddie 'scented death' all over the place, because although it is written in the files (that he did, Almeida) Harrison and Grime both say he didn't.

And Amaral will not get away with saying Harrison changed the enquiry to one for a little girl assumed dead because that is a lie (contradicted by Harrison himself).

And Harrison will only get away with saying he contradicted Prior on the forensic results if there is a report (somewhere) which says that; also that Prior rang the FSS to berate them on the PJ's powers of arrest if (again) there is a report indicating that (not in the publicly released files) ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 09, 2016, 09:56:20 AM
Amaral could get away with lies so long as those lies were reflected in what's written in the files; or more pertinently not contradicted in the files.

Hence, he will not get away with saying Eddie 'scented death' all over the place, because although it is written in the files (that he did, Almeida) Harrison and Grime both say he didn't.

And Amaral will not get away with saying Harrison changed the enquiry to one for a little girl assumed dead because that is a lie (contradicted by Harrison himself).

And Harrison will only get away with saying he contradicted Prior on the forensic results if there is a report (somewhere) which says that; also that Prior rang the FSS to berate them on the PJ's powers of arrest if (again) there is a report indicating that (not in the publicly released files) ....


It was not up to Harrison or Grime to say Eddie scented death or not.

It is the job of the forensic department to evaluate any evidence collected.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on February 09, 2016, 10:00:23 AM


It was not up to Harrison or Grime to say Eddie scented death or not.

It is the job of the forensic department to evaluate any evidence collected.


It was Amaral who lied (in his book) that Harrison and Grime did say those things.

It's why Amaral will lose the libel trial ....

If he hasn't already.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 09, 2016, 10:05:18 AM


It was Amaral who lied (in his book) that Harrison and Grime did say those things.

It's why Amaral will lose the libel trial ....

If he hasn't already.

Amaral made mistakes.

However, the biggest mistake in this case is the mccanns saying they exhibited 'responsible parenting skills'.

Without which, we would not be on here now.

Nothing to do with Amaral, whom you you clearly hate, as do the mccanns.

yet other people purport the same theory as he does, yet the mccanns don't take them to court.

Why is that ?

Perhaps they thought he was an easy target.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on February 09, 2016, 10:07:22 AM
Amaral made mistakes.

However, the biggest mistake in this case is the mccanns saying they exhibited 'responsible parenting skills'.

Without which, we would not be on here now.

Nothing to do with Amaral, whom you you clearly hate, as do the mccanns.

yet other people purport the same theory as he does, yet the mccanns don't take them to court.

Why is that ?

Perhaps they thought he was an easy target.

It was an English barrister (specialising in family law) who said the McCanns actions were 'within bounds of responsible parenting'.

But then what do barristers who specialise in family law know ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 09, 2016, 10:10:28 AM
It was an English barrister (specialising in family law) who said the McCanns actions were 'within bounds of responsible parenting'.

But then what do barristers who specialise in family law know ...

So the barrister said it was quite OK to go out drinking and leave your children unsafe and in unlocked accomodation ?

How many cases as this Barrister won ?

Meanwhile police in the UK have arrested people for less.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on February 09, 2016, 10:11:43 AM
Lawyers generally say what their clients pay them to say.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 09, 2016, 10:15:39 AM
Lawyers generally say what their clients pay them to say.

Indeed.

Hardly likely to say they are guilty of crime in all neglect leading global to the loss of a child.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 09, 2016, 11:00:50 AM
It was an English barrister (specialising in family law) who said the McCanns actions were 'within bounds of responsible parenting'.

But then what do barristers who specialise in family law know ...

Do you have his/her name and the precise quotation ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 09, 2016, 11:08:34 AM
Do you have his/her name and the precise quotation ?

Any connection to Carter-Ruck I wonder ? &%+((£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on February 09, 2016, 11:14:17 AM
Probably not. They are more into libel and reputation management.

It might even have been a 'spokesman' saying what a lawyer said, rather than the lawyer himself
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 09, 2016, 11:16:32 AM
Probably not. They are more into libel and reputation management.

It might even have been a 'spokesman' saying what a lawyer said, rather than the lawyer himself

It could well be Jassi.

I hardly think any Barrister would say it's perfectly OK to go out drinking, and leave 3 children under the age of 4 by themselves.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 09, 2016, 11:38:51 AM
Do you have his/her name and the precise quotation ?
The incident is covered on p124 of Kate's book.   The barrister is not named, but from wearing a bow tie, braces and a Panama hat, I assume the barrister is male.  His expertise is not covered.  There was also a paralegal from the International Family Law Group.  AFAIK, barristers do not work within such groups, but it could be the barrister got hoiked in as IFLG had used his services before.

The 'well within the bounds of reasonable parenting' is attributed to said barrister by Kate in her book.

There is nothing to indicate whether he was applying English law or Portuguese law.  As we know, the McCanns were not charged with negligence in either Portugal or England.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 09, 2016, 11:55:16 AM


It was not up to Harrison or Grime to say Eddie scented death or not.

It is the job of the forensic department to evaluate any evidence collected.
Then why did grime give an opinion...and why did the pj ask him if the alerts were to cadaver
And tell us what the forensic dept said
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 09, 2016, 12:00:18 PM
It could well be Jassi.

I hardly think any Barrister would say it's perfectly OK to go out drinking, and leave 3 children under the age of 4 by themselves.

a barrister would want more facts than that...which is what he had
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 09, 2016, 12:02:33 PM
Do you have his/her name and the precise quotation ?
The precise quotation of what the barrister professionally advised is "well within the bounds of reasonable parenting" and the source is KM book page 124. IMO the name is certainly not impossible to find.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on February 09, 2016, 12:20:39 PM
So basically what we have is a hearsay statement of what was said by an unidentified person.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 09, 2016, 12:30:23 PM
So basically what we have is a hearsay statement of what was said by an unidentified person.

Yup.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on February 09, 2016, 12:36:27 PM
The precise quotation of what the barrister professionally advised is "well within the bounds of reasonable parenting" and the source is KM book page 124. IMO the name is certainly not impossible to find.

A paralegal from Leicester who worked for the IFLG flew out to PdL on 11th May with a barrister. The topics discussed over the weekend included the 'responsible parenting' issue, applying for Ward of Court status for the child and the setting up of the 'fighting fund'. The fund was incorporated very quickly and launched on 16th.

The first report I can find saying the patio doors were left open is 13th May. Up until then it was believed the apartment had been secured. No wonder they wanted reassurance about their parenting practices.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-454466/Madeleines-parents-left-patio-doors-unlocked.html
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 09, 2016, 01:00:13 PM
a barrister would want more facts than that...which is what he had
Indeed davel, the professional legal advice quoted in KM book p124 was not given from the office in London - it was given in PDL on May12/13, after the advisor had viewed the walking distance and visibility from the tapas restaurant table to the child bedroom (at carpark end of apartment 5A).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 09, 2016, 01:03:15 PM

It was Amaral who lied (in his book) that Harrison and Grime did say those things.

It's why Amaral will lose the libel trial ....

If he hasn't already.

Grime didn't say the dogs didn't scent death.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 09, 2016, 01:15:02 PM
So basically what we have is a hearsay statement of what was said by an unidentified person.

It would seem that way.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 09, 2016, 01:33:17 PM
So basically what we have is a hearsay statement of what was said by an unidentified person.
Fairly reliable hearsay of what was said (and presumably written) by an un-identified professional.

To be fair to the professional, the words ""well within the bounds of reasonable parenting" must have originally been in a longer carefully written sentence, so it is possible that by quoting those selected words verbatim (p124 KM book) without quoting the rest of the sentence verbatim, the exact meaning may have become changed, for example by omitting the conditional or qualifying part of the sentence, which surely any barrister would have included?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on February 09, 2016, 01:34:14 PM
It would seem that way.

  ... and what does it matter?

      ... and in what way does it relate to the Amaral appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 09, 2016, 01:41:04 PM
  ... and what does it matter?

      ... and in what way does it relate to the Amaral appeal?
Good point. Has the phrase "well within the bounds of reasonable parenting" been mentioned by either side in the legal case and its appeals?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 09, 2016, 01:42:45 PM
  ... and what does it matter?

      ... and in what way does it relate to the Amaral appeal?


Well it doesn't make it a fact now does it?
My original response was to ferryman's post 4363 where he mentions the matter.
If you are concerned about it not being related take it up with ferryman.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 09, 2016, 02:03:30 PM
Grime didn't say the dogs didn't scent death.

and he didn't say they did...amaral said they did...amaral lied
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 09, 2016, 03:29:08 PM
(snip)  ... and in what way does it relate to the Amaral appeal?
Because the advice to claim responsible parenting, the advice to start a fund, and the advice to do ward of court, all came in one parcel.
The early advice to start the fund is what caused that fund to come into existence, and later partly finance suing Mr Amaral. And did the early advice to do ward of court later enable the missing child to sue Mr Amaral?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on February 09, 2016, 03:36:42 PM
Good point. Has the phrase "well within the bounds of reasonable parenting" been mentioned by either side in the legal case and its appeals?

Why would it be?

Again...

The judge's job was to examine a civil case, not a criminal one (which had never come to court).

The judge didn't want to know whether the dogs were reliable or not, either. Not her job.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 09, 2016, 03:41:55 PM
Why would it be?

Again...

The judge's job was to examine a civil case, not a criminal one (which had never come to court).
This ongoing court case would never have happened IMO had it not not been for that very early parcel of legal advice, because that caused the fund to be started and the ward of court to be obtained, both of which directly enabled the court case.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on February 09, 2016, 03:46:32 PM
This ongoing court case would never have happened IMO had it not not been for that very early parcel of legal advice, because that caused the fund to be started and the ward of court to be obtained, both of which directly enabled the court case.

Which bit of legal advice led to the creation of the fund?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on February 09, 2016, 03:49:01 PM
Lawyers generally say what their clients pay them to say.

Very true jassi.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on February 09, 2016, 03:55:25 PM
Why would it be?

Again...

The judge's job was to examine a civil case, not a criminal one (which had never come to court).

The judge didn't want to know whether the dogs were reliable or not, either. Not her job.

I'm (slowly) beginning to understand that, now.

The judge compared what was written in the book with what was written in the files.

If they matched, Amaral could say it (true or not).

In that sense, the judge did not adjudicate on what was 'true' or 'not true', just whether it was faithful to the files.

Unsure of the status of stuff in the files, but contradicted by other stuff, also in the files.

It's in the files that Eddie 'scented death' all over the place; also in the files (Grime and Harrison) that no evidential reliability could be placed on the dogs' reactions.

Where does Amaral stand on that one?

Amaral said Harrison changed the direction of the investigation into one for a little girl assumed dead and buried (in close vicinity to PdL), an outright distortion (of the files).  Harrison formed no fixed conclusion, but proffered the opinion that if death had occurred, it was most likely Madeleine's remains had been jettisoned into the sea ....

Amaral claimed the Scent Transfer Unit is a device for detecting death scent.  It is used for trapping and storing scents of living people.

Amaral's conclusion diametrically contradicts the conclusion of the Portuguese prosecutors.

I've no clue how the court that overruled the injunction concluded Amaral's book is based on the files.

It is plain common sense that Martin Smith agreed to produce an efit only because he had changed his mind about the man the Smiths all saw being Gerry.

And so on.

Amaral is up against it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 09, 2016, 04:04:19 PM
We shall see.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on February 09, 2016, 04:08:46 PM
It is plain common sense that Martin Smith agreed to produce an efit only because he had changed his mind about the man the Smiths all saw being Gerry.

In the absence of a statement by Mr Smith that is pure speculation on your part.  Mr Smith has never declared publicly that he changed his mind.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 09, 2016, 04:16:42 PM
I'm (slowly) beginning to understand that, now.

The judge compared what was written in the book with what was written in the files.

If they matched, Amaral could say it (true or not).

In that sense, the judge did not adjudicate on what was 'true' or 'not true', just whether it was faithful to the files.

Unsure of the status of stuff in the files, but contradicted by other stuff, also in the files.

It's in the files that Eddie 'scented death' all over the place; also in the files (Grime and Harrison) that no evidential reliability could be placed on the dogs' reactions.

Where does Amaral stand on that one?

Amaral said Harrison changed the direction of the investigation into one for a little girl assumed dead and buried (in close vicinity to PdL), an outright distortion (of the files).  Harrison formed no fixed conclusion, but proffered the opinion that if death had occurred, it was most likely Madeleine's remains had been jettisoned into the sea ....

Amaral claimed the Scent Transfer Unit is a device for detecting death scent.  It is used for trapping and storing scents of living people.

Amaral's conclusion diametrically contradicts the conclusion of the Portuguese prosecutors.

I've no clue how the court that overruled the injunction concluded Amaral's book is based on the files.

It is plain common sense that Martin Smith agreed to produce an efit only because he had changed his mind about the man the Smiths all saw being Gerry.

And so on.

Amaral is up against it.

Were you present at every meeting between Amaral and Harrison?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on February 09, 2016, 04:46:40 PM
Were you present at every meeting between Amaral and Harrison?

It would have been irrelevant if anyone had been.

It's a civil case, not a criminal one.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 09, 2016, 05:21:42 PM
It would have been irrelevant if anyone had been.

It's a civil case, not a criminal one.

So in your view it would be irrelevant if Harrison had said to Amaral, "you need to look for a body close by".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 09, 2016, 05:32:00 PM
I'm (slowly) beginning to understand that, now.

The judge compared what was written in the book with what was written in the files.

If they matched, Amaral could say it (true or not).

In that sense, the judge did not adjudicate on what was 'true' or 'not true', just whether it was faithful to the files.

Unsure of the status of stuff in the files, but contradicted by other stuff, also in the files.

It's in the files that Eddie 'scented death' all over the place; also in the files (Grime and Harrison) that no evidential reliability could be placed on the dogs' reactions.

Where does Amaral stand on that one?

Amaral said Harrison changed the direction of the investigation into one for a little girl assumed dead and buried (in close vicinity to PdL), an outright distortion (of the files).  Harrison formed no fixed conclusion, but proffered the opinion that if death had occurred, it was most likely Madeleine's remains had been jettisoned into the sea ....

Amaral claimed the Scent Transfer Unit is a device for detecting death scent.  It is used for trapping and storing scents of living people.

Amaral's conclusion diametrically contradicts the conclusion of the Portuguese prosecutors.

I've no clue how the court that overruled the injunction concluded Amaral's book is based on the files.

It is plain common sense that Martin Smith agreed to produce an efit only because he had changed his mind about the man the Smiths all saw being Gerry.

And so on.

Amaral is up against it.

Yes it is becoming clear now
So when in proved facts it states the dog alerted to cadaver
It is a proven fact it is in the files
No more
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on February 09, 2016, 06:15:00 PM
So in your view it would be irrelevant if Harrison had said to Amaral, "you need to look for a body close by".

In the civil case at hand, yes

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on February 09, 2016, 06:17:32 PM
Yes it is becoming clear now
So when in proved facts it states the dog alerted to cadaver
It is a proven fact it is in the files
No more


Yes, that's all it means: someone wrote a book stating that the moon was made of green cheese, and she went to check if that was actually mentioned in the files.

The fact that others questioned wheher the moon really was made of green cheese or Gouda is neither here nor there.

ETA: There are exceptions in the "proven facts", some clearly could easily be proven,: e.g, that the McCanns were married (a certificate could easily prove that).

However, the veracity of the allegations in the files are not her problem.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on February 09, 2016, 06:51:24 PM
I'm (slowly) beginning to understand that, now.

The judge compared what was written in the book with what was written in the files.

If they matched, Amaral could say it (true or not).

In that sense, the judge did not adjudicate on what was 'true' or 'not true', just whether it was faithful to the files.

Unsure of the status of stuff in the files, but contradicted by other stuff, also in the files.

It's in the files that Eddie 'scented death' all over the place; also in the files (Grime and Harrison) that no evidential reliability could be placed on the dogs' reactions.

Where does Amaral stand on that one?

Amaral said Harrison changed the direction of the investigation into one for a little girl assumed dead and buried (in close vicinity to PdL), an outright distortion (of the files).  Harrison formed no fixed conclusion, but proffered the opinion that if death had occurred, it was most likely Madeleine's remains had been jettisoned into the sea ....

Amaral claimed the Scent Transfer Unit is a device for detecting death scent.  It is used for trapping and storing scents of living people.

Amaral's conclusion diametrically contradicts the conclusion of the Portuguese prosecutors.

I've no clue how the court that overruled the injunction concluded Amaral's book is based on the files.

It is plain common sense that Martin Smith agreed to produce an efit only because he had changed his mind about the man the Smiths all saw being Gerry.

And so on.

Amaral is up against it.

The judge wasn't interested in that, she was interested in only two things.

1. Did Amaral breach Judicial secrecy.(by writing his book before the case files were released)
2. Was he bound (by virtue of being a retired policeman) to uphold the presumption of innocence of the couple.

Her conclusions were yes and yes.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 09, 2016, 07:19:26 PM
Which bit of legal advice led to the creation of the fund?
This is the advice which caused the fund to be created
"... told us that we needed to set up a 'fighting' fund. They would devise the objectives ..."
Source: page 125 KM book (an excellent and honest source)
That fund later went on to pay, in part, the expenses of suing Mr Amaral.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on February 09, 2016, 07:52:29 PM
The judge wasn't interested in that, she was interested in only two things.

1. Did Amaral breach Judicial secrecy.(by writing his book before the case files were released)
2. Was he bound (by virtue of being a retired policeman) to uphold the presumption of innocence of the couple.

Her conclusions were yes and yes.

She was interested in to what extent Amaral's book reflected what was written in the files.

Anything that deviated from what was written in the files (and lowered the McCanns' reputation) counted against him in the libel trial.

The judge was not interested (it was not her place to judge) in whether the files, themselves, represented truth or untruth.

But where Amaral's book, matched against what is written in the files, was concerned, that was the judge's benchmark.  Points (of Amaral's book) that deviated from what was written in the files (and lowered the reputations of the McCanns) counted against Amaral in the judgement.

There was shed-loads ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 09, 2016, 07:56:10 PM
She was interested in to what extent Amaral's book reflected what was written in the files.

Anything that deviated from what was written in the files (and lowered the McCanns' reputation) counted against him in the libel trial.

The judge was not interested (it was not her place to judge) in whether the files, themselves, represented truth or untruth.

But where Amaral's book, matched against what is written in the files, was concerned, that was the judge's benchmark.  Points (of Amaral's book) that deviated from what was written in the files (and lowered the reputations of the McCanns) counted against Amaral in the judgement.

There was shed-loads ....

and hers was just one opinion, subject to appeal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on February 09, 2016, 08:01:57 PM
So in your view it would be irrelevant if Harrison had said to Amaral, "you need to look for a body close by".

Harrison's reports make plain he formed no such conclusion.

The penultimate sentence of his (final) report indicates he formed a tentative view that if Madeleine was dead -- if -- (a crucial proviso!) it was most likely her body was jettisoned in the sea.

Amaral's book is grossly at variance with Harrison's conclusion in a way that maligns the McCanns.

On that basis (alone) Amaral should lose the libel trial.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 09, 2016, 08:03:06 PM
Who paid the legal expenses of starting this civil case in 2008?

It was the many ordinary kind people who donated to Madeleine's Fund Leaving No Stone Unturned Limited 

"Chairman's statement for the year ended 31 March 2009 ....... We have: ........ paid for legal representation for Kate, Gerry, S... and A..... in Portugal, enabling them to obtain an injunction, banning Mr Amaral from repeating his fabricated claims about Madeleine's abduction ........"

(I corrected 2 typos which were in the original document)

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on February 09, 2016, 08:12:53 PM
I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz. (See my second report entitled “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine”).

Mark Harrison.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on February 09, 2016, 08:18:02 PM
Who paid the legal expenses of starting this civil case in 2008?

It was the many ordinary kind people who donated to Madeleine's Fund Leaving No Stone Unturned Limited 

"Chairman's statement for the year ended 31 March 2009 ....... We have: ........ paid for legal representation for Kate, Gerry, S... and A..... in Portugal, enabling them to obtain an injunction, banning Mr Amaral from repeating his fabricated claims about Madeleine's abduction ........"

(I corrected 2 typos which were in the original document)

My eyes glaze over at accountancy.

However, have you taken into account the payouts from various newspapers?


 Wednesday 19 March 2008 08.20 GMT
Last modified on Friday 8 January 2016 15.47 GMT


The Daily Express and Daily Star carried unprecedented front page apologies to Gerry and Kate McCann today for publishing more than 100 articles on the disappearance of their daughter, Madeleine, some of which suggested the couple were involved in her death .

After being threatened with legal action over the articles dating back almost 11 months to when their daughter first went missing, the newspapers, owned by Richard Desmond, also agreed to pay out what it called "a very substantial sum".

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2008/mar/19/dailyexpress.dailystar
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: blonk on February 09, 2016, 08:30:34 PM
In the absence of a statement by Mr Smith that is pure speculation on your part.  Mr Smith has never declared publicly that he changed his mind.

I have to agree with 'ferryman' here and respectfully suggest that it is far from 'speculation' that Martin Smith 'changed his mind'.

Surely it is obvious that he did for these among the following reasons:

1. He was publicly quoted in the media in 2008 as supporting the abduction, asking people to help in the search for Madeleine and look for the abductor (forget the exact quote)

2. He agreed as early as December 2007 or January 2008 to speak to Brian Kennedy and Metodo 3, knowing that they were acting for the McCanns

3. He clearly subsequently agreed to at least put his name to the two e-fits (whatever doubts I and not a few others have about his capacity to do so, a year after the event

4. Almost certainly he consented to the McCanns suggesting twice, within the May 2009 Channel 4 'Mockumentary, strongly suggesting that Smithman and Tannerman were one and the same   

5. Again he must be presumed to have consented to an audio summary of his evidence being placed on the McCanns' website in May 2009 (and it's still there today, 7 years later)

6. His evidence was used by Kate McCann again in 7 pages of her book, 'madeleine' (May 2011) to advance the case that Smithman and Tannerman were one and the same, and finally

7. His two admitted meetings with DCI Andy Redwood, one in 2012 and the other in 2013, must again be taken as presumed, if not proactive, co-operation with BBC Crimewatch, who in their show of 14 October 2013 made the two efits, quote, 'the centre of our focus'.

The only way in which you can argue @ John that he did not willingly 'change his mind' would be to suggest that he has been threatened, or otherwise forced, to change his mind.

(I leave out from this post all the many obvious issues that arise from his controversial evidence, given 4.5 months after the event, that he was '60% to 80% sure' it was Gerry McCann that he had seen 4.5 months earlier, based basically on his claim that Gerry was carrying Sean over his shoulder the same way as the man he alleged that he'd seen)           
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 09, 2016, 08:35:41 PM
I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz. (See my second report entitled “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine”).

Mark Harrison.
Also by MH (Processos IX p2227)
"In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed"
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 09, 2016, 08:39:10 PM
if a member of "Team McCann" had attempted to threaten or force me to do something I didn't want to do, I would have gone straight to the newspapers with it - what a scoop for them!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on February 09, 2016, 08:45:19 PM
I have to agree with 'ferryman' here and respectfully suggest that it is far from 'speculation' that Martin Smith 'changed his mind'.

Surely it is obvious that he did for these among the following reasons:

1. He was publicly quoted in the media in 2008 as supporting the abduction, asking people to help in the search for Madeleine and look for the abductor (forget the exact quote)

2. He agreed as early as December 2007 or January 2008 to speak to Brian Kennedy and Metodo 3, knowing that they were acting for the McCanns

3. He clearly subsequently agreed to at least put his name to the two e-fits (whatever doubts I and not a few others have about his capacity to do so, a year after the event

4. Almost certainly he consented to the McCanns suggesting twice, within the May 2009 Channel 4 'Mockumentary, strongly suggesting that Smithman and Tannerman were one and the same   

5. Again he must be presumed to have consented to an audio summary of his evidence being placed on the McCanns' website in May 2009 (and it's still there today, 7 years later)

6. His evidence was used by Kate McCann again in 7 pages of her book, 'madeleine' (May 2011) to advance the case that Smithman and Tannerman were one and the same, and finally

7. His two admitted meetings with DCI Andy Redwood, one in 2012 and the other in 2013, must again be taken as presumed, if not proactive, co-operation with BBC Crimewatch, who in their show of 14 October 2013 made the two efits, quote, 'the centre of our focus'.

The only way in which you can argue @ John that he did not willingly 'change his mind' would be to suggest that he has been threatened, or otherwise forced, to change his mind.

(I leave out from this post all the many obvious issues that arise from his controversial evidence, given 4.5 months after the event, that he was '60% to 80% sure' it was Gerry McCann that he had seen 4.5 months earlier, based basically on his claim that Gerry was carrying Sean over his shoulder the same way as the man he alleged that he'd seen)           

Presumably SY had not told MS at the time of his meetings with them that Tannerman had been identified.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on February 09, 2016, 08:51:51 PM
Also by MH (Processos IX p2227)
"In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed"

Before the inspections, though.

What I cite is the penultimate sentence of Harrison's third report (after he had witnessed all the inspections).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 09, 2016, 08:54:07 PM
My eyes glaze over at accountancy.

However, have you taken into account the payouts from various newspapers?


 Wednesday 19 March 2008 08.20 GMT
Last modified on Friday 8 January 2016 15.47 GMT


The Daily Express and Daily Star carried unprecedented front page apologies to Gerry and Kate McCann today for publishing more than 100 articles on the disappearance of their daughter, Madeleine, some of which suggested the couple were involved in her death .

After being threatened with legal action over the articles dating back almost 11 months to when their daughter first went missing, the newspapers, owned by Richard Desmond, also agreed to pay out what it called "a very substantial sum".

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2008/mar/19/dailyexpress.dailystar
In the financial year ending 31 March 2009, there was no partition of the limited company's money into "money donated by ordinary people to be spent on actual searching" and "money obtained by threatening civil legal action, to be spent on initiating civil legal action abroad".

Money donated by ordinary people was in part used to pay the legal expenses of obtaining the injunction against
Mr Amaral.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on February 09, 2016, 08:55:30 PM
Also by MH (Processos IX p2227)
"In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed"

It MAY suggest... that's one possibility. What are the others?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on February 09, 2016, 08:59:03 PM
In the financial year ending 31 March 2009, there was no partition of the limited company's money into "money donated by ordinary people to be spent on actual searching" and "money obtained by threatening civil legal action, to be spent on initiating civil legal action abroad".

Money donated by ordinary people was in part used to pay the legal expenses of obtaining the injunction against
Mr Amaral.

When was this payout actually made? Is the fiscal year of major importance?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 09, 2016, 09:19:50 PM
(snip)... have you taken into account the payouts from various newspapers? ... (snip)
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2008/mar/19/dailyexpress.dailystar
The payouts from newspapers were all spent on actual search Carana
 
chairman's statement year ending 31 Mar 2008:
"... the Express Group ... substantial cash donation ... has enabled us to continue our search for Madeleine..."   

chairman's statement year ending 31 Mar 2009:
"... other newspapers followed suit with accompanying donations ... this has enabled us to continue our search for Madeleine..."

The proceeds from newspapers were spent on search, therefore the costs of getting the injunction against Mr A was paid from ordinary donations?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 09, 2016, 09:51:23 PM
It MAY suggest... that's one possibility. What are the others?
Another possibility might be that an absorbent object, which had been in sufficient contact with a body outside the property, had then been brought into the property, and had sufficient contact with some part of the property (a shelf, a floor, etc) and then the object was removed from the property?

My main point is that the NPIA expert uses the phrase "dead body scent", but probably some posters would claim there is no such thing?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 09, 2016, 09:55:37 PM
Another possibility might be that an absorbent object, which had been in sufficient contact with a body outside the property, had then been brought into the property, and had sufficient contact with some part of the property (a shelf, a floor, etc) and then the object was removed from the property?

My main point is that the NPIA expert uses the phrase "dead body scent", but probably some posters would claim there is no such thing?

Careful, you will upset the cynophobes.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 09, 2016, 10:01:01 PM
Careful, you will upset the cynophobes.

I think this is one of the main things that seperate the sceptics from supporters...sceptics think the alerts have some significance...supporters having a better understanding...do not
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 09, 2016, 10:08:22 PM
Careful, you will upset the cynophobes.
This comment is designed to goad supporters, is it not?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 09, 2016, 10:10:37 PM
This comment is designed to goad supporters, is it not?

It depends if they consider themselves cynophobes?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 09, 2016, 10:11:06 PM
This comment is designed to goad supporters, is it not?

I think it reveals a certain mentality
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 09, 2016, 10:11:50 PM
It depends if they consider themselves cynophobes?

then you do not understand the meaning of the word
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 09, 2016, 10:17:39 PM
It depends if they consider themselves cynophobes?

On balance i think I will simply report it as goading...John has asked for better behaviour on here posts and its a shame as a mod you are not willing to comply
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 09, 2016, 10:18:21 PM
then you do not understand the meaning of the word

Oh I do.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 09, 2016, 10:19:14 PM
Oh I do.

then you have used it in an insulting manner which is unacceptable behaviour





 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 09, 2016, 10:30:56 PM
then you have used it in an insulting manner which is unacceptable behaviour

No just pointing out the truth. Some people are scared of the dogs, admittedly only in this context.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 09, 2016, 10:36:23 PM
No just pointing out the truth. Some people are scared of the dogs, admittedly only in this context.

Your reasoning is very poor.....I haven't seen anyone on here whom is scared of the dogs...certainly not me...you are wrong and quoting opinion as fact...what I see on here are posters who don't understand the alerts .... it seems you are one of them...the only phobia I suffer from is dumasaphobia
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 09, 2016, 10:41:34 PM
No just pointing out the truth. Some people are scared of the dogs, admittedly only in this context.

That's why wee gerry mccann mentioned them in the trial.

Perhaps he should have taken up the advice he gave to Sandra. 8)-)))

In essence, the judge told him to shut up.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 09, 2016, 10:42:07 PM
Your reasoning is very poor.....I haven't seen anyone on here whom is scared of the dogs...certainly not me...you are wrong and quoting opinion as fact...what I see on here are posters who don't understand the alerts .... it seems you are one of them...the only phobia I suffer from is dumasaphobia

I understand the alerts, you however seem to believe that the most likely cause of the alerts is the one that should be discounted and ignored.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 09, 2016, 10:43:38 PM
That's why wee gerry mccann mentioned them in the trial.

Perhaps he should have taken up the advice he gave to Sandra. 8)-)))

anyone who has followed the case and the debate understands why Gerry mentioned them..the judge reassured him they were of no importance
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 09, 2016, 10:44:36 PM
I understand the alerts, you however seem to believe that the most likely cause of the alerts is the one that should be discounted and ignored.

I suspect you do not understand the alerts...what do the alerts tell us
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 09, 2016, 10:50:44 PM
I suspect you do not understand the alerts...what do the alerts tell us


the alerts tell us nothing...they tell us maddie may have died in the apartment but give us no indication how likely that is...we already knew that so the alerts tell us nothing...please critique that perfect logic if you can
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 09, 2016, 10:53:32 PM
It depends if they consider themselves cynophobes?
You clearly believe such people post on this forum otherwise you wouldn't have made the comment, ergo it was clearly designed to goad, not only that but it was a cheap shot at all McCann supporters, none of whom have a clinical phobia of dogs as far as I'm aware.  Perhaps you were just trying to show off with you new big word.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 09, 2016, 10:54:42 PM
You clearly believe such people post on this forum otherwise you wouldn't have made the comment, ergo it was clearly designed to goad, not only that but it was a cheap shot at all McCann supporters, none of whom have a clinical phobia of dogs as far as I'm aware.  Perhaps you were just trying to show off with you new big word.


I much prefer...dumasaphobia
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 09, 2016, 10:56:25 PM
No just pointing out the truth. Some people are scared of the dogs, admittedly only in this context.
Insulting claptrap.  Why can we not be critical of the dog alerts without being labeled scared of dogs?  The alerts are ancient history, what's to be scared of?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on February 09, 2016, 10:56:40 PM

I much prefer...dumasaphobia

Fear of Alexandre Dumas ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 09, 2016, 11:00:42 PM
You clearly believe such people post on this forum otherwise you wouldn't have made the comment, ergo it was clearly designed to goad, not only that but it was a cheap shot at all McCann supporters, none of whom have a clinical phobia of dogs as far as I'm aware.  Perhaps you were just trying to show off with you new big word.

Tell that to the McCanns, I'm sure they will listen to your advice. 8)--))

If of no importance to the McCanns, they would not have continued to diss them.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 09, 2016, 11:00:49 PM
Fear of Alexandre Dumas ?

of course not....love the Count...love the idea of revenge served cold...love poetry too
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 09, 2016, 11:02:09 PM
Tell that to the McCanns, I'm sure they will listen to your advice. 8)--))

If of no importance to the McCanns, they would not have continued to diss them.

if you understood then you would understand ...It is quite simple
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 09, 2016, 11:04:35 PM
Tell that to the McCanns, I'm sure they will listen to your advice. 8)--))

If of no importance to the McCanns, they would not have continued to diss them.
The only importance of the dog alerts is as a weapon in the on-going battle of words between numpties like us on internet chatrooms.  In the real world those alerts were consigned to the dog bowl of history eons ago.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: blonk on February 09, 2016, 11:13:36 PM
Presumably SY had not told MS at the time of his meetings with them that Tannerman had been identified.
Oh to have been a fly on the wall when Redwood met Martin Smith.

I wouldn't really like to have Martin Smith as a witness on my side though:

Does nothing for 13 days...

Then the moment Murat is made an arguido his son rings up and says 'Dad was I dreaming or did we see someone carrying a child on the same day as Madeleine went missing?'...

Then, to quote, "We all remembered that we had the same recollection'...

4.5 months later he again delays (11 days this time) before telling the police: "I saw Gerry on the telly carrying Sean - I'm sure it's the same man - well, about 60% to 80% anyway..."

Just months later he's singing from the McCanns' hymn sheet...

And has been ever since...

And he's given us efits of two quite different-looking men...

Very, very strange
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on February 09, 2016, 11:25:39 PM
I think this is one of the main things that seperate the sceptics from supporters...sceptics think the alerts have some significance...supporters having a better understanding...do not

Spot-on.  And forum mores and prohibitions preclude comment of (just) critique of the way the dogs were handled ...

No. No one fears the dogs.  We just wonder whether the McCanns would, ever, have been constituted arguido/a if the dogs had been handled properly.

I fear we are wandering off-topic, though.

Amaral's appeal.

Is there any news of it?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on February 10, 2016, 12:31:28 AM
Oh to have been a fly on the wall when Redwood met Martin Smith.

I wouldn't really like to have Martin Smith as a witness on my side though:

Does nothing for 13 days...

Then the moment Murat is made an arguido his son rings up and says 'Dad was I dreaming or did we see someone carrying a child on the same day as Madeleine went missing?'...

Then, to quote, "We all remembered that we had the same recollection'...

4.5 months later he again delays (11 days this time) before telling the police: "I saw Gerry on the telly carrying Sean - I'm sure it's the same man - well, about 60% to 80% anyway..."

Just months later he's singing from the McCanns' hymn sheet...

And has been ever since...

And he's given us efits of two quite different-looking men...

Very, very strange

In your opinion, do you think the Smith family would have been so prepared to reproduce those e-fits for the police if they had known Tannerman had most likely been identified & eliminated?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on February 10, 2016, 01:37:02 AM
Spot-on.  And forum mores and prohibitions preclude comment of (just) critique of the way the dogs were handled ...

No. No one fears the dogs.  We just wonder whether the McCanns would, ever, have been constituted arguido/a if the dogs had been handled properly.

I fear we are wandering off-topic, though.

Amaral's appeal.

Is there any news of it?

Forum mores and prohibitions are JUST what  is needed for people like YOU who libel police officers professinaism knowledge and experience when you are not in any position whatsoever to do so ,and further go on to accuse/imply/denigrate with made up crap and allegations of fraud, doctoring cvs, lying etc, we know who the joke and fraud is here

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on February 10, 2016, 01:44:27 AM
The payouts from newspapers were all spent on actual search Carana
 
chairman's statement year ending 31 Mar 2008:
"... the Express Group ... substantial cash donation ... has enabled us to continue our search for Madeleine..."   

chairman's statement year ending 31 Mar 2009:
"... other newspapers followed suit with accompanying donations ... this has enabled us to continue our search for Madeleine..."

The proceeds from newspapers were spent on search, therefore the costs of getting the injunction against Mr A was paid from ordinary donations?

They can "blend" meanings statements and facts, so anything spent on anything is a search for / aids the search for their kid

Even if they had used ALL the  near 1m libel money (theirs and tapas7) to sue Amaral  they could pass it off.....as aiding the search?..well...not to everyone obviously
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2016, 08:26:37 AM

Please can we start the day without Insults and Off Topic Posts.  Thank You.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: blonk on February 10, 2016, 09:55:43 AM
In your opinion, do you think the Smith family would have been so prepared to reproduce those e-fits for the police if they had known Tannerman had most likely been identified & eliminated?
This is one of very many questions about the actions of the Smiths which can only be answered by, at best, an educated guess.

For example, why did it take 13 days to report their sighting?

Did Martin Smith honestly believe it was Gerry McCann he saw on Thursday 3 May?

Were the family really capable of drawing up those two detailed e-fits of different-looking men, one whole year after they'd only seen his partially-hidden face for a few seconds at most in the dark, and all told the police in Portimao on 26 May 2007 that they'd never be able to recognise him if they saw him again?

Why within the space of less than 4 months (Sep 07 to Jan 08) did Martin Smith switch from saying it was Gerry McCann he saw carrying away a child, to actively working with the McCann Team?

To answer your question, some time in early 2008 Martin Smith committed himself to the McCann cause, and has allowed the McCanns ever since early 2009 to make full use of the sighting as they saw fit - but without reproducing the efits.

I don't think it matters one whit whether Martin Smith knew or didn't know that Redwood was planning to say that Tannerman was actually Crecheman.

He is sticking to his story that he and his family really did see someone (dressed remarkably like Wojchiech Krokowski) with a child in pink pyjamas at about 10pm on 3 May - and that the man looked like two different men as revealed on the efits. He probably has no view on Tannerman/Smithman

It all seems deeply mysterious to me
     
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2016, 10:00:23 AM
This is one of very many questions about the actions of the Smiths which can only be answered by, at best, an educated guess.

For example, why did it take 13 days to report their sighting?

Did Martin Smith honestly believe it was Gerry McCann he saw on Thursday 3 May?

Were the family really capable of drawing up those two detailed e-fits of different-looking men, one whole year after they'd only seen his partially-hidden face for a few seconds at most in the dark, and all told the police in Portimao on 26 May 2007 that they'd never be able to recognise him if they saw him again?

Why within the space of less than 4 months (Sep 07 to Jan 08) did Martin Smith switch from saying it was Gerry McCann he saw carrying away a child, to actively working with the McCann Team?

To answer your question, some time in early 2008 Martin Smith committed himself to the McCann cause, and has allowed the McCanns ever since early 2009 to make full use of the sighting as they saw fit - but without reproducing the efits.

I don't think it matters one whit whether Martin Smith knew or didn't know that Redwood was planning to say that Tannerman was actually Crecheman.

He is sticking to his story that he and his family really did see someone (dressed remarkably like Wojchiech Krokowski) with a child in pink pyjamas at about 10pm on 3 May - and that the man looked like two different men as revealed on the efits. He probably has no view on Tannerman/Smithman

It all seems deeply mysterious to me
   

If you wish to discuss Martin Smith will you please take the discussion to an appropriate Thread, or start a new one.  Thank You.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 11, 2016, 05:11:18 AM
Oh to have been a fly on the wall when Redwood met Martin Smith.

I wouldn't really like to have Martin Smith as a witness on my side though:

Does nothing for 13 days...

Then the moment Murat is made an arguido his son rings up and says 'Dad was I dreaming or did we see someone carrying a child on the same day as Madeleine went missing?'...

Then, to quote, "We all remembered that we had the same recollection'...

4.5 months later he again delays (11 days this time) before telling the police: "I saw Gerry on the telly carrying Sean - I'm sure it's the same man - well, about 60% to 80% anyway..."

Just months later he's singing from the McCanns' hymn sheet...

And has been ever since...

And he's given us efits of two quite different-looking men...

Very, very strange
IMO neither of the 2 efits is by MS.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on February 11, 2016, 06:47:56 AM
One e-fit by Martin Smith and another by his wife.

What's strange about that?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on February 11, 2016, 09:20:01 AM
The only importance of the dog alerts is as a weapon in the on-going battle of words between numpties like us on internet chatrooms.  In the real world those alerts were consigned to the dog bowl of history eons ago.

Agreed.

In the Matthews case, the UK police checked out potential innocent explanations and eventually discovered the reason, which had nothing to do with the child.

If a certain coordinator had been in charge, the child could have been assumed murdered and the extended family members charged with the usual menu of crimes. Meanwhile a living little girl was holed up waiting to be rescued...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 11, 2016, 09:39:28 AM
Agreed.

In the Matthews case, the UK police checked out potential innocent explanations and eventually discovered the reason, which had nothing to do with the child.

If a certain coordinator had been in charge, the child could have been assumed murdered and the extended family members charged with the usual menu of crimes. Meanwhile a living little girl was holed up waiting to be rescued...

You would have thought with the resources available, the McCanns would have uncovered the innocent explanation in this case.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 11, 2016, 09:40:32 AM
You would have thought with the resources available, the McCanns would have uncovered the innocent explanation in this case.

they have
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 11, 2016, 09:42:57 AM
they have

Go on then?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 11, 2016, 09:55:13 AM
Go on then?

the alerts are unreliable
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 11, 2016, 09:57:56 AM
It is abundantly clear, if the 'alerts' didn't worry the mccanns and some of their supporters, then they wouldn't keep on about them.

YET THEY DO.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 11, 2016, 10:06:09 AM
It is abundantly clear, if the 'alerts' didn't worry the mccanns and some of their supporters, then they wouldn't keep on about them.

YET THEY DO.

that is your assumption.....and it is wrong...the alerts are totally meaningless as I have explained on many occasions
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 11, 2016, 10:30:10 AM
abusive post...reported

is it not against forum rules to call posters liars...what is the forum coming to when mods call posters liars

It's against the rules if not true. I said they could have identified an innocent reason, you said they had, then you said the alerts are unreliable which is not an innocent explanation. We can only assume you lied, unless of course you made a mistake.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 11, 2016, 10:32:09 AM
It's against the rules if not true. I said they could have identified an innocent reason, you said they had, then you said the alerts are unreliable which is not an innocent explanation. We can only assume you lied, unless of course you made a mistake.

Gerry has said the alerts are extremely unreliable......that is an innocent expalnation......you are are a liar as I have not lied
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 11, 2016, 10:40:04 AM
Gerry has said the alerts are extremely unreliable......that is an innocent expalnation......you are are a liar as I have not lied

It's not an explanation at all.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on February 11, 2016, 10:41:32 AM
It is abundantly clear, if the 'alerts' didn't worry the mccanns and some of their supporters, then they wouldn't keep on about them.

YET THEY DO.



The possibility that she did indeed die in 5A can't be excluded 100% at this time, irrespective of what actually prompted Eddie to react and what he may have reacted to.

Even if it had been found that a bloodied band-aid had been left around for a while and had been picked up by the cleaning lady, it might be a "satisfactory explanation" of an alert (and other incidents that had taken place over time could plausibly explain others), it still wouldn't totally exclude the possibility that she had died there.

The bottom line is still that the dogs are an asset (tool) to help the police find evidence... but none was found.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 11, 2016, 10:46:19 AM


The possibility that she did indeed die in 5A can't be excluded 100% at this time, irrespective of what actually prompted Eddie to react and what he may have reacted to.

Even if it had been found that a bloodied band-aid had been left around for a while and had been picked up by the cleaning lady, it might be a "satisfactory explanation" of an alert (and other incidents that had taken place over time could plausibly explain others), it still wouldn't totally exclude the possibility that she had died there.

The bottom line is still that the dogs are an asset (tool) to help the police find evidence... but none was found.


something I have been saying for  along time but some posters cannot accept the truth...bopth the mccanns and those supporting them understand this and that is why the alerts are of absolutely no concern

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 11, 2016, 12:13:53 PM

something I have been saying for  along time but some posters cannot accept the truth...bopth the mccanns and those supporting them understand this and that is why the alerts are of absolutely no concern

Do you think Operation Grange has been a waste of time and money? They are looking for a body and using dogs just like Amaral did in 2007. Nothing has changed and there's has been no updates about new forensic tests.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on February 11, 2016, 12:19:58 PM
Do you think Operation Grange has been a waste of time and money? They are looking for a body and using dogs just like Amaral did in 2007. Nothing has changed and there's has been no updates about new forensic tests.

Op Grange may have had intelligence to verify. Or were simply checking out a potential dumping area that hadn't been explored before. Who knows?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on February 11, 2016, 12:44:43 PM
Gerry has said the alerts are extremely unreliable......that is an innocent expalnation......you are are a liar as I have not lied

If they can, defense lawyers will produce evidence of innocence in court. If they can't, they will try to discredit prosecution evidence of guilt. Gerry McCann's lawyers intended to use the evidence presented by the lawyers in the Zapata case should the McCanns be charged. The Zapata lawyers had no evidence of innocence, so they used the 'unreliability' argument to convince the Judge that the cadaver dog alerts were of no use. They were successful, but we now know the dogs were right.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 11, 2016, 02:39:07 PM
If they can, defense lawyers will produce evidence of innocence in court. If they can't, they will try to discredit prosecution evidence of guilt. Gerry McCann's lawyers intended to use the evidence presented by the lawyers in the Zapata case should the McCanns be charged. The Zapata lawyers had no evidence of innocence, so they used the 'unreliability' argument to convince the Judge that the cadaver dog alerts were of no use. They were successful, but we now know the dogs were right.

How embarrassing picking proven NOT to be unreliable dogs in the Zapata case.

"Zapata said in that statement he went to the family's home on Indian Trace on the morning of Oct. 11, 1976, to discuss things with his estranged wife and wound up in an argument which escalated and became violent. He said he took a draftsman's weight out of a drawer and struck his wife in the head, then strangled her, first with his hands and then with a cord, to make sure she was dead. After cleaning up her blood, he rolled his wife into a tent, then drove to the rural area east of Madison where he dumped her body in a wooded area he believes along what is now Reiner Road.

Later, he bought a piece of property in Juneau County and used a U-Haul trailer to take the body from the woods and dump it on his new property in Juneau County, covering it with loads of dirt. The body stayed there for some 24 years. In 2001, after he had remarried and retired from state work, he decided to move to Nevada. Before making that move, he retrieved the body again, this time putting it in a rented storage locker in Sun Prairie.

Zapata's plans began to unravel in late 2004, when Peggy Weekly, a longtime friend of Jeanette's, contacted the Madison Police department to ask whatever had become of the investigation into her friend's disappearance. That led detectives to review the old case and, by August of 2006, they were satisfied they had enough evidence to convict Eugene of first-degree murder.

Detectives had two prongs of new evidence that wasn't available in 1976: cadaver sniffing dogs which appeared to show that Zapata had kept the body in various homes he, his children and his new wife lived in while in Madison, at the Sun Prairie storage locker and at the Juneau County landfill. They also had a set of detailed notes Zapata kept of his wife's whereabouts and with whom she was associating in the days when the couple was estranged.

But that was not enough to convict Zapata. Last Fall, jurors deliberated for some four days before telling Dane County Circuit Court Judge Patrick Fiedler they were hopelessly deadlocked: 10 wanting to convict and one holding out for an acquittal with one juror undecided.

Prosecutors said they would bring Zapata to trial again but instead reached a plea bargain. He agreed to plead to the far lesser charge of reckless homicide and face a maximum of five years in prison. With time off for good behavior, allowed under 1976 law, he will serve about three years and one month before being freed.

Part of that deal called for Zapata to make a complete and truthful confession to detectives and, Assistant District Attorney Robert Kaiser said, he has done that.

As they renewed their investigation, Zapata said, he went to the Sun Prairie storage center, cut up the remains of the body, put it into plastic bags and put them in a dumpster at the Juneau County Landfill."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1972541/posts
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on February 11, 2016, 04:49:32 PM
How embarrassing picking proven NOT to be unreliable dogs in the Zapata case.

"Zapata said in that statement he went to the family's home on Indian Trace on the morning of Oct. 11, 1976, to discuss things with his estranged wife and wound up in an argument which escalated and became violent. He said he took a draftsman's weight out of a drawer and struck his wife in the head, then strangled her, first with his hands and then with a cord, to make sure she was dead. After cleaning up her blood, he rolled his wife into a tent, then drove to the rural area east of Madison where he dumped her body in a wooded area he believes along what is now Reiner Road.

Later, he bought a piece of property in Juneau County and used a U-Haul trailer to take the body from the woods and dump it on his new property in Juneau County, covering it with loads of dirt. The body stayed there for some 24 years. In 2001, after he had remarried and retired from state work, he decided to move to Nevada. Before making that move, he retrieved the body again, this time putting it in a rented storage locker in Sun Prairie.

Zapata's plans began to unravel in late 2004, when Peggy Weekly, a longtime friend of Jeanette's, contacted the Madison Police department to ask whatever had become of the investigation into her friend's disappearance. That led detectives to review the old case and, by August of 2006, they were satisfied they had enough evidence to convict Eugene of first-degree murder.

Detectives had two prongs of new evidence that wasn't available in 1976: cadaver sniffing dogs which appeared to show that Zapata had kept the body in various homes he, his children and his new wife lived in while in Madison, at the Sun Prairie storage locker and at the Juneau County landfill. They also had a set of detailed notes Zapata kept of his wife's whereabouts and with whom she was associating in the days when the couple was estranged.

But that was not enough to convict Zapata. Last Fall, jurors deliberated for some four days before telling Dane County Circuit Court Judge Patrick Fiedler they were hopelessly deadlocked: 10 wanting to convict and one holding out for an acquittal with one juror undecided.

Prosecutors said they would bring Zapata to trial again but instead reached a plea bargain. He agreed to plead to the far lesser charge of reckless homicide and face a maximum of five years in prison. With time off for good behavior, allowed under 1976 law, he will serve about three years and one month before being freed.

Part of that deal called for Zapata to make a complete and truthful confession to detectives and, Assistant District Attorney Robert Kaiser said, he has done that.

As they renewed their investigation, Zapata said, he went to the Sun Prairie storage center, cut up the remains of the body, put it into plastic bags and put them in a dumpster at the Juneau County Landfill."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1972541/posts

The dogs alerted to the storage locker highlighted above.

On April 13, 2005, police left a message for Eugene Zapata with his wife in Nevada. The next day, the locker’s key was returned to U-Store Mini Storage in Sun Prairie. The empty locker remained locked until Aug. 10 and 11 when police opened it.

Dogs detected the scent of decomposing or decomposed human remains inside and around the locker

Husband Prime Suspect in 1976 Case (WI Cold Case Re-Opened)
Wisconsin State Journal ^ | December 16, 2005 | Lisa Schuetz
Posted on 12/16/2005, 8:01:45 PM by Diana in Wisconsin
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on February 11, 2016, 05:05:17 PM
How is the Zapata case related to Amaral's appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on February 11, 2016, 05:29:58 PM
How is the Zapata case related to Amaral's appeal?

It's obvious, isn't it?

Rather than (as widely touted I think!,) being the McCanns' trump-card,  the Zapata case will be Amaral's trump card, the deciding factor in reserving the legal tide in the libel trial and that will see Amaral, after all, triumph ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 11, 2016, 06:30:34 PM
I understand the alerts, you however seem to believe that the most likely cause of the alerts is the one that should be discounted and ignored.

and you are assuming that the most likely cause of the alerts is a cadaver...there is absolutely no proof that is the case
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on February 11, 2016, 06:32:27 PM
It's obvious, isn't it?

Rather than (as widely touted I think!,) being the McCanns' trump-card,  the Zapata case will be Amaral's trump card, the deciding factor in reserving the legal tide in the libel trial and that will see Amaral, after all, triumph ....

After the long, long wait ... is the Ace not really the A but the Z ??   A truly cunning plan.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on February 11, 2016, 06:39:03 PM
I understand the alerts, you however seem to believe that the most likely cause of the alerts is the one that should be discounted and ignored.

Think?

That the alerts should be ignored is both what the law says and what common sense decrees ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on February 11, 2016, 06:48:21 PM
If they can, defense lawyers will produce evidence of innocence in court. If they can't, they will try to discredit prosecution evidence of guilt. Gerry McCann's lawyers intended to use the evidence presented by the lawyers in the Zapata case should the McCanns be charged. The Zapata lawyers had no evidence of innocence, so they used the 'unreliability' argument to convince the Judge that the cadaver dog alerts were of no use. They were successful, but we now know the dogs were right.
They could have drawn on numerous examples of unreliability in this area, Zampo the cadaver dog for one.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on February 11, 2016, 08:39:28 PM
They could have drawn on numerous examples of unreliability in this area, Zampo the cadaver dog for one.

Eddie in Jersey could be another.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 11, 2016, 10:22:59 PM
Think?

That the alerts should be ignored is both what the law says and what common sense decrees ....

The law says they can't be used as evidence, not ignored.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 11, 2016, 10:34:31 PM
The law says they can't be used as evidence, not ignored.

could you provide a cite where the law states they cannot be ignored
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 11, 2016, 10:37:29 PM
could you provide a cite where the law states they cannot be ignored

When you provide one that says they should be, which is what is being claimed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 11, 2016, 10:40:06 PM
When you provide one that says they should be, which is what is being claimed.
The law says they can't be used as evidence, not ignored.


this is your claim...can you substantiate it...the answer is no
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 11, 2016, 10:49:01 PM
The law says they can't be used as evidence, not ignored.

your post accusing me of lying has been removed,,that speaks volumes
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 11, 2016, 10:50:42 PM
The law says they can't be used as evidence, not ignored.


this is your claim...can you substantiate it...the answer is no

ferryman stated
Quote
alerts should be ignored is ... what the law says
so up to him to substantiate.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 11, 2016, 10:57:14 PM
ferryman stated  so up to him to substantiate.

the alerts have no value...if you do not realise that then you do not understand the alerts
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 11, 2016, 10:59:34 PM
ferryman stated  so up to him to substantiate.


the alerts are ignored by the courts...i thought everyone was aware of that
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on February 12, 2016, 12:03:02 AM
The only importance of the dog alerts is as a weapon in the on-going battle of words between numpties like us on internet chatrooms.  In the real world those alerts were consigned to the dog bowl of history eons ago.
...and Mr R employed two welsh cadaver dogs and ground-penetrating radar to dupe us numpties into imagining he was searching for something cadaver dogs and ground-penetrating radar search for - a cunning plan indeed!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on February 12, 2016, 12:44:53 AM
...and Mr R employed two welsh cadaver dogs and ground-penetrating radar to dupe us numpties into imagining he was searching for something cadaver dogs and ground-penetrating radar search for - a cunning plan indeed!

... and a VRD from Yorkshire was deployed on the Orkney island of Sanday and found human remains.  The same dog was used in Jersey and found nothing.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on February 12, 2016, 09:39:40 AM
ferryman stated  so up to him to substantiate.

Uncorroborated alerts are ignored.

That's the law
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on February 12, 2016, 09:41:38 AM
The law says they can't be used as evidence, not ignored.

Ignored by a court of law.

Because they can't be used as evidence.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on February 12, 2016, 09:43:51 AM

Any chance of a decision anytime soon?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on February 12, 2016, 01:14:13 PM
It's obvious, isn't it?

Rather than (as widely touted I think!,) being the McCanns' trump-card,  the Zapata case will be Amaral's trump card, the deciding factor in reserving the legal tide in the libel trial and that will see Amaral, after all, triumph ....

LOL

I somewhat doubt that as the judge found that ascertaining whether what was in the criminal case files was "true" or not was beyond her remit.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on February 12, 2016, 01:40:01 PM
Ignored by a court of law.

Because they can't be used as evidence.

I have no idea whether it would have been admitted as evidence in a PT criminal court or not. There doesn't appear to have been a precedent as they didn't have those dogs. On the other hand, any evidence not prohibited can be presented.

I find it quite possible that it would have been... but then it would be up to the judges / jury to actually read and take account of the caveat.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on February 12, 2016, 02:49:36 PM
Just need to wait a bit longer to see how that is going to pan out.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Admin on March 01, 2016, 10:49:23 AM
Just need to wait a bit longer to see how that is going to pan out.

Here we are on the 1st March 2016 and not a whisper from the appeal court in Lisbon.  Clearly they are struggling to bring closure to this case and still maintain some credibility.  The pressures on the Judges must be huge.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on March 01, 2016, 10:53:02 AM
Here we are on the 1st March 2016 and not a whisper from the appeal court in Lisbon.  Clearly they are struggling to bring closure to this case and still maintain some credibility.  The pressures on the Judges must be huge.

Or perhaps there are simply a lot of appeal cases to wade through?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on March 01, 2016, 10:53:36 AM
Here we are on the 1st March 2016 and not a whisper from the appeal court in Lisbon.  Clearly they are struggling to bring closure to this case and still maintain some credibility.  The pressures on the Judges must be huge.

I would imagine that if they were simply  rubber stamping the lower court judge's decision we would have heard by now.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on March 01, 2016, 06:13:33 PM
Here we are on the 1st March 2016 and not a whisper from the appeal court in Lisbon.  Clearly they are struggling to bring closure to this case and still maintain some credibility.  The pressures on the Judges must be huge.

I think the courts are under pressure, but simply due to number of cases.  So its a case of patience.  Decision should be sometime this year, ish.

a brief quote from Chambers and Partners website:

"On the basis of historic evidence, it is estimated that the second instance courts take on average between six months and one year to decide an appeal, and that the Supreme Court will take on average three to six months to issue a final decision."

http://www.chambersandpartners.com/guide/practice-guides/location/241/6617/1422-200

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on March 12, 2016, 01:41:27 PM
I think the courts are under pressure, but simply due to number of cases.  So its a case of patience.  Decision should be sometime this year, ish.

a brief quote from Chambers and Partners website:

"On the basis of historic evidence, it is estimated that the second instance courts take on average between six months and one year to decide an appeal, and that the Supreme Court will take on average three to six months to issue a final decision."

http://www.chambersandpartners.com/guide/practice-guides/location/241/6617/1422-200

The first-instance decision was handed down on 28 April 2015.

So we aren't all that far from 11 months since then.

Shouldn't be that much longer ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 12, 2016, 02:09:40 PM
The first-instance decision was handed down on 28 April 2015.

So we aren't all that far from 11 months since then.

Shouldn't be that much longer ....

I can scarcely contain my curiosity................... 6&%5%
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on March 12, 2016, 02:16:54 PM
The first-instance decision was handed down on 28 April 2015.

So we aren't all that far from 11 months since then.

Shouldn't be that much longer ....

Good God, has it been that long?  Doesn't the time fly when one is having fun.

However, what redress after the decision has been made, for either party?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on March 12, 2016, 02:19:58 PM
I can scarcely contain my curiosity................... 6&%5%

Me neither.

Whatever the outcome of the appeal, it will only be about whether he had the legal right to write / narrate what he did (and even then in only his book, "documentary" and one article).

Even if the case is overturned and he wins the appeal, it would not mean that whatever he said / wrote is accurate in terms of what happened to the child... just that he had the right to express his view, however garbled his understanding appears to be.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on March 12, 2016, 02:23:00 PM
Good God, has it been that long?  Doesn't the time fly when one is having fun.

However, what redress after the decision has been made, for either party?

If the appeal-court decision precisely replicates the decision of the court of first-instance, that's it.

The decision of the court of first instance will be final and binding and will be irrevocably enforced.

The McCanns will have won.

And Amaral will have lost.

And GofundmeGocalo?

Heaven only knows.

Will quietly implode, I guess ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on March 12, 2016, 02:39:09 PM
Me neither.

Whatever the outcome of the appeal, it will only be about whether he had the legal right to write / narrate what he did (and even then in only his book, "documentary" and one article).

Even if the case is overturned and he wins the appeal, it would not mean that whatever he said / wrote is accurate in terms of what happened to the child... just that he had the right to express his view, however garbled his understanding appears to be.

I think it will be simply down to how much money was awarded.  The Judge didn't leave much room for anything else.

If Portuguese Law allows for any old person to say what they like, then the only other redress is against the person who said it, and from where they got their information, and under what circumstances.
I thought that The Judge made that quite plain.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on March 12, 2016, 02:44:06 PM
If the appeal-court decision precisely replicates the decision of the court of first-instance, that's it.

The decision of the court of first instance will be final and binding and will be irrevocably enforced.

The McCanns will have won.

And Amaral will have lost.

And GofundmeGocalo?

Heaven only knows.

Will quietly implode, I guess ....

Thank You for that.  I have almost lost the plot on this one.

But what happens if The Court of Appeal reduces the amount of Damages?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on March 12, 2016, 02:46:44 PM
Thank You for that.  I have almost lost the plot on this one.

But what happens if The Court of Appeal reduces the amount of Damages?


If the finding is identical that would seem to be the end of the road.

If the findings are different, there may be an avenue to send the case up to the Supreme Court.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on March 12, 2016, 02:53:47 PM
Thank You for that.  I have almost lost the plot on this one.

But what happens if The Court of Appeal reduces the amount of Damages?

Logically, if the level of damage is reduced, the McCanns would have the option of appealing the reduction.

Conversely, if they are increased, I suppose Amaral could appeal the increase.

Scope for (potential) extension of court proceedings on either side, I suppose .....

My guess is maintenance of the status quo is what the McCanns will be hoping for.

They have already indicated they are more than happy with the verdict of first-instance.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on March 12, 2016, 02:54:55 PM
I think it will be simply down to how much money was awarded.  The Judge didn't leave much room for anything else.

If Portuguese Law allows for any old person to say what they like, then the only other redress is against the person who said it, and from where they got their information, and under what circumstances.
I thought that The Judge made that quite plain.

AFAIK, it will be about whether he had the legal right, in view of his former position, to state what he did, when he did, and present it as fact.

His appeal is likely to be that he was technically free from any former professional obligations to shut up. There does seem to be a grey area over when this shut up period may be considered to have ended.

On the other hand, it's impossible to launch a book, ready to go on sale, 3 days after the archiving despatch had been made public without those involved in the publishing industry being aware of the contents. *

That is likely to be part of the issue... and if there are no precedents, it may be complicated.

* ETA: he therefore breached the confidentiality regulation while he was still a serving officer.

His objection is likely to be that this breach is of a lower order (an administrative offence) than his constitutional right to full freedom of speech.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on March 12, 2016, 03:06:50 PM

If the finding is identical that would seem to be the end of the road.

If the findings are different, there may be an avenue to send the case up to the Supreme Court.

Sh*t.  I did think so.  Although hardly really important.  But it might suggest a different level culpability.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on March 12, 2016, 03:11:17 PM
Sh*t.  I did think so.  Although hardly really important.  But it might suggest a different level culpability.

Normally, an appeal to the SC would be about interpretations of law.

An exception to a regular appeal (prior to an SC review) would be a criminal trial involving a jury, which is not the case here. The reasoning being that a jury trial is supposed to provide an additional layer of "objectivity".
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on March 12, 2016, 03:21:07 PM
Sh*t.  I did think so.  Although hardly really important.  But it might suggest a different level culpability.


As it's a civil case, there may be some latitude over the extent of the damages awarded.

Even if the damages end up amounting to a token €10k (as opposed to the much higher amount), it still doesn't mean that he was 90% correct, although I expect that that is how it would be portrayed to the gullible.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on March 12, 2016, 03:28:36 PM
Normally, an appeal to the SC would be about interpretations of law.

An exception to a regular appeal (prior to an SC review) would be a criminal trial involving a jury, which is not the case here. The reasoning being that a jury trial is supposed to provide an additional layer of "objectivity".

Don't know what to say about that.  I understand perfectly an Interpretation of Law, albeit always only an Opinion.

But did Amaral, or did he not abuse his role?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on March 12, 2016, 03:44:31 PM
Don't know what to say about that.  I understand perfectly an Interpretation of Law, albeit always only an Opinion.

But did Amaral, or did he not abuse his role?

AFAIK, that is what the case is about.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on March 12, 2016, 03:50:12 PM
Reading back, what I said isn't quite clear.

AFAIK, In a criminal trial, involving a jury, the process skips the simple appeal to jump straight over to the SC.

It appears irrelevant in this case in any event.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on March 12, 2016, 09:29:18 PM
AFAIK, it will be about whether he had the legal right, in view of his former position, to state what he did, when he did, and present it as fact.

His appeal is likely to be that he was technically free from any former professional obligations to shut up. There does seem to be a grey area over when this shut up period may be considered to have ended.

On the other hand, it's impossible to launch a book, ready to go on sale, 3 days after the archiving despatch had been made public without those involved in the publishing industry being aware of the contents. *

That is likely to be part of the issue... and if there are no precedents, it may be complicated.

* ETA: he therefore breached the confidentiality regulation while he was still a serving officer.

His objection is likely to be that this breach is of a lower order (an administrative offence) than his constitutional right to full freedom of speech.

It was said at the time of the preliminary injunction five years ago that the McCanns intended to file a criminal complaint against Amaral for breaking Judicial secrecy.  I read somewhere that the PJ interviewed him about it, but nothing seems to have come of it.

Madeleine McCann's parents are to lodge a complaint with Portuguese police claiming that former detective Goncalo Amaral broke his country's strict judicial secrecy laws.
http://news.sky.com/story/752000/mccanns-to-claim-ex-cop-broke-secrecy-laws

I suppose the question arising is if a judge in a civil case can issue a judgement on a criminal matter.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on March 12, 2016, 10:51:09 PM
It was said at the time of the preliminary injunction five years ago that the McCanns intended to file a criminal complaint against Amaral for breaking Judicial secrecy.  I read somewhere that the PJ interviewed him about it, but nothing seems to have come of it.

Madeleine McCann's parents are to lodge a complaint with Portuguese police claiming that former detective Goncalo Amaral broke his country's strict judicial secrecy laws.
http://news.sky.com/story/752000/mccanns-to-claim-ex-cop-broke-secrecy-laws

I suppose the question arising is if a judge in a civil case can issue a judgement on a criminal matter.

No idea whether such a complaint was ever actually filed, nor if so by whom, nor what the result was.

I'm not quite sure what to make of this from the ruling:


Criminal investigation officers, retired for various reasons of disciplinary penalty application, retain special rights, being holders of an identification card for recognition of their quality and the rights they enjoy [paragraphs 1 and and 2 of article 149 of the Organic Law of the Judicial Police and Ordinance No. 96/2002 of 31 January].

The statute of the retirement [approved by Decree-Law 498/72 of 9 December] establishes, from its original wording in the respective artº 74, paragraph 1, that
the retired, apart from his right to a retirement pension, remains bound to the civil service, keeping the titles and the category of the position he held and the rights and duties that do not depend on being in activity.

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm

That sounds as if he'd been "encouraged to explore other career opportunities", but it's not quite clear. If so, that would pre-date the issue over the publication of his book.

But there's also this (below) and I can't work out what it's about as it doesn't actually say. He seems to have won a partial appeal against PJ disciplinary measures and something concerning a €500 fine.


Polícia Judiciária
Aviso (extrato) n.o 11666/2013
Nos termos e para os efeitos do disposto no n.o 3 do artigo 25 do Regulamento Disciplinar da Polícia Judiciária publicado no Decreto-Lei n.o 196/94 de 21 de julho, na impossibilidade, confirmada, de proceder à notificação pessoal, por ausência, em parte incerta, notifica-se o Coordenador de Investigação Criminal, na situação de aposentado, Licenciado Gonçalo de Sousa Amaral, que por despacho da Ministra da Justiça, de 26 de agosto de 2013, foi concedido provimento parcial do recurso hierárquico por si interposto do ato recorrido consubstanciado no despacho do Diretor Nacional Adjunto, de 30 de junho de 2010, tendo a pena disciplinar de multa no montante de 500,00 € sido mantida e a suspensão na sua execução sido reduzida de dois para o período mínimo de um ano, começando esta a produzir efeitos decorridos 15 dias após a publicação deste aviso no Diário da República.
6 de setembro de 2013. — Pela Diretora da Unidade, João Prata Augusto.
207241913

Google gibberish I'm afraid.
Judiciary Police
Notice (extract) No 11666/2013
Under the terms and for the purposes of paragraph 3 of Article 25 of the Judicial Police Disciplinary Regulations published in Decree-Law 196/94 of July 21, the impossibility, confirmed, proceeding to personal service, by absence, in part uncertain, notify the Coordinator of Criminal Investigation, the retired situation, Licensed Gonçalo de Sousa Amaral, who by order of the Minister of Justice of 26 August 2013, was granted partial approval of the administrative appeal brought by the defendant itself act embodied in the order of the Deputy National Director of 30 June 2010, having the disciplinary penalty fine in the amount of € 500.00 been maintained and the suspension in its execution been reduced to two for the minimum period of one year, starting this to take effect after 15 days after publication of this notice in the Official Gazette.
September 6, 2013 - For the Director of the Unit, John Silver Augustus.

Not sure if this is the correct link or not:

http://legislacaoportuguesa.com/aviso-extrato-n-o-116662013-d-r-n-o-180-parte-c-serie-ii-de-2013-09-18/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on March 12, 2016, 11:03:48 PM
It was said at the time of the preliminary injunction five years ago that the McCanns intended to file a criminal complaint against Amaral for breaking Judicial secrecy.  I read somewhere that the PJ interviewed him about it, but nothing seems to have come of it.

Madeleine McCann's parents are to lodge a complaint with Portuguese police claiming that former detective Goncalo Amaral broke his country's strict judicial secrecy laws.
http://news.sky.com/story/752000/mccanns-to-claim-ex-cop-broke-secrecy-laws

I suppose the question arising is if a judge in a civil case can issue a judgement on a criminal matter.

Iirc it was thrown out of court
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on March 12, 2016, 11:14:35 PM
Iirc it was thrown out of court

Not sure about that. I can't think what else a PJ disciplinary measure dating back to 30 June 2010 could be about (if indeed that's the starting date and not some mid-point concerning something else).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on March 12, 2016, 11:18:34 PM
Not sure about that. I can't think what else a PJ disciplinary measure dating back to 30 June 2010 could be about (if indeed that's the starting date and not some mid-point concerning something else).

Well let us know when you find out so far its not hit the headlines..this and one other was theown out with a flea ear, ask mrs duarte
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on March 12, 2016, 11:55:28 PM
Well let us know when you find out so far its not hit the headlines..this and one other was theown out with a flea ear, ask mrs duarte

Why would a €500 disciplinary fine hit the headlines? I agree that it's not the sort of thing any of his fans would rush to translate, but that's a different matter.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on March 13, 2016, 09:14:22 AM
Not sure about that. I can't think what else a PJ disciplinary measure dating back to 30 June 2010 could be about (if indeed that's the starting date and not some mid-point concerning something else).

If it was to do with Judicial Secrecy the penalty of 500 Euros would suggest it's a fairly minor offence. The Supreme Court ignored it in the first book banning carry-on. Then along comes a Judge who uses it as one of the main points of her judgement.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on March 13, 2016, 09:30:35 AM
If it was to do with Judicial Secrecy the penalty of 500 Euros would suggest it's a fairly minor offence. The Supreme Court ignored it in the first book banning carry-on. Then along comes a Judge who uses it as one of the main points of her judgement.

It wouldn't have been relevant to the injunction, I wouldn't have thought, but would explain a separate complaint, if one was ever filed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on March 13, 2016, 09:58:37 AM
It wouldn't have been relevant to the injunction, I wouldn't have thought, but would explain a separate complaint, if one was ever filed.

It was mentioned during the injunction hearings, so Isabel Duarte thought it was relevant. If Amaral breached Judicial secrecy to write his book it would have been very relevant, surely?

The deputy director of a popular Portuguese tabloid that distributed a DVD based on a documentary that claimed Madeleine McCann died tragically in a holiday apartment in the Algarve in May 2007 denied in court last week (February 10) that judicial secrecy had been broken.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id309.html Algarve Resident.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on March 13, 2016, 10:39:28 AM
Not sure about that. I can't think what else a PJ disciplinary measure dating back to 30 June 2010 could be about (if indeed that's the starting date and not some mid-point concerning something else).

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2010/01/attempt-to-breach-secrecy-of-justice.html

Whats this all about then?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on March 13, 2016, 01:31:43 PM
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2010/01/attempt-to-breach-secrecy-of-justice.html

Whats this all about then?

What is what about?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on March 13, 2016, 02:57:21 PM
AFAIK, it will be about whether he had the legal right, in view of his former position, to state what he did, when he did, and present it as fact.

His appeal is likely to be that he was technically free from any former professional obligations to shut up. There does seem to be a grey area over when this shut up period may be considered to have ended.

On the other hand, it's impossible to launch a book, ready to go on sale, 3 days after the archiving despatch had been made public without those involved in the publishing industry being aware of the contents. *

That is likely to be part of the issue... and if there are no precedents, it may be complicated.

* ETA: he therefore breached the confidentiality regulation while he was still a serving officer.

His objection is likely to be that this breach is of a lower order (an administrative offence) than his constitutional right to full freedom of speech.

I think  (now!) what the judge meant when she said she is not interested in questions of truth or untruth is that it was not her job to test the truth (or otherwise!) of the files themselves.

Her job was to test to what extent Amaral's book reflects what is written in the files.

If it's in the files, Amaral can say it (and not be touched in libel) even if it is demeaning to the McCanns.

A complication is that stuff written in the files is contradicted by other stuff, also written in the files.

It is written in the files (Almeida!) that Eddie scented death all over the place.

And it is written in the files (Grime and Harrison) that no incriminating inference can be drawn from the reactions of the dogs.

So does that entitle Amaral to say Eddie scented death?

Or doesn't it?

In my view, it ought not.

Amaral completely misrepresented the role of Harrison (as written in the files).

That ought to be a very big black mark.

And Amaral's last chapter contradicts the archiving dispatch.

That should be the biggest black mark of all ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on March 13, 2016, 06:58:07 PM
(snip) ... Polícia Judiciária
Aviso (extrato) n.o 11666/2013
Nos termos e para os efeitos do disposto no n.o 3 do artigo 25 do Regulamento Disciplinar da Polícia Judiciária publicado no Decreto-Lei n.o 196/94 de 21 de julho, na impossibilidade, confirmada, de proceder à notificação pessoal, por ausência, em parte incerta, notifica-se o Coordenador de Investigação Criminal, na situação de aposentado, Licenciado Gonçalo de Sousa Amaral, que por despacho da Ministra da Justiça, de 26 de agosto de 2013, foi concedido provimento parcial do recurso hierárquico por si interposto do ato recorrido consubstanciado no despacho do Diretor Nacional Adjunto, de 30 de junho de 2010, tendo a pena disciplinar de multa no montante de 500,00 € sido mantida e a suspensão na sua execução sido reduzida de dois para o período mínimo de um ano, começando esta a produzir efeitos decorridos 15 dias após a publicação deste aviso no Diário da República.
6 de setembro de 2013. — Pela Diretora da Unidade, João Prata Augusto.
http://legislacaoportuguesa.com/aviso-extrato-n-o-116662013-d-r-n-o-180-parte-c-serie-ii-de-2013-09-18/
Carana the small amount 500 euro suggests this might be just a matter of a lawyer missing a deadline to register as assistant (in which event the registration fee is doubled to about 500 euro)???
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on March 13, 2016, 07:12:40 PM
Carana the small amount 500 euro suggests this might be just a matter of a lawyer missing a deadline to register as assistant (in which event the registration fee is doubled to about 500 euro)???

I don't think so, Pegasus. It seems to concern a disciplinary action from the deputy head of the PJ against which he'd appealed to a higher level.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on March 13, 2016, 07:16:30 PM
Carana the small amount 500 euro suggests this might be just a matter of a lawyer missing a deadline to register as assistant (in which event the registration fee is doubled to about 500 euro)???

Do you mean about a thousand euros?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on March 13, 2016, 07:30:17 PM
Do you mean about a thousand euros?
I read a similar trivial thing about Joana case where a fee of of 200+ euro ??? for a lawyer to register as assistante  was doubled for being late but sorry I lost the link Ferryman
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on March 13, 2016, 07:55:42 PM
What is what about?

Did the mccanns/duarte win a case aganst amaral for breaking the secrecy of justice laws?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on March 13, 2016, 08:12:45 PM
Did the mccanns/duarte win a case aganst amaral for breaking the secrecy of justice laws?

I've no idea whether a court case was ever intended over it or not. Duarte may simply have complained to the PJ, which might explain the sanction.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on March 13, 2016, 08:18:24 PM
I've no idea whether a court case was ever intended over it or not. Duarte may simply have complained to the PJ, which might explain the sanction.

Thats what my link showed, i remember reading abut it elsewhere as well, so yes, it was intended
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on March 14, 2016, 01:04:19 PM
(snip)....
http://legislacaoportuguesa.com/aviso-extrato-n-o-116662013-d-r-n-o-180-parte-c-serie-ii-de-2013-09-18/
The sum of 500 euros is obviously far to small to be a fine for breach of secrecy. For example, in another case the same amount is is simply the total of the fee for lawyer to file as assistant and a fine for doing it late. Translated of Correio Da Manha 25 10 2008  "The Lawyers’ Order was fined over approximately 200 euros because it failed to pay the amount of judicial expenses to become an assistant in the process, within the deadlines. According to what CM was able to establish with a judicial source, it wasn’t until yesterday morning, when the trial was scheduled to begin, that the payment was made. Thus, the constitution as an assistant cost the double amount: almost 500 euros, including the fine"
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on March 14, 2016, 01:17:44 PM
The sum of 500 euros is obviously far to small to be a fine for breach of secrecy. For example, in another case the same amount is is simply the total of the fee for lawyer to file as assistant and a fine for doing it late. Translated of Correio Da Manha 25 10 2008  "The Lawyers’ Order was fined over approximately 200 euros because it failed to pay the amount of judicial expenses to become an assistant in the process, within the deadlines. According to what CM was able to establish with a judicial source, it wasn’t until yesterday morning, when the trial was scheduled to begin, that the payment was made. Thus, the constitution as an assistant cost the double amount: almost 500 euros, including the fine"

This fine appears to have been the result of a partially successful appeal against - presumably a higher sanction - based on one issued by the PJ.

How could this be the result of a fine imposed in a civil case?

It also mentions a "suspension in the execution..." - I can't work out whether that relates to a suspension in the sense of a staggered payment of the fine or to a suspension in the sense of a different sanction (PJ sanctions can seemingly carry on through the legal process for years after the officer in question has left service - cf Cristóvão)

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6269.msg314616#msg314616
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on March 14, 2016, 01:38:54 PM
@ Pegasus,

There is a confusing issue.

I find it highly unlikely that there would have been a "regular" court case concerning the breach of judicial secrecy. There is, however, a system for dealing with offences relating to the PJ.

There is a whole hierarchy involved in PJ sanctions depending on the gravity, and the sanctions have an escalating range of consequences.

This one appears to have been issued by the deputy head of the PJ (which corresponds to one of the lower levels of santions). The more serious the offence, the higher the decision-making body - which makes sense.

This one was decreed by the deputy national director, whereas booting Amaral off the case was a decision by the national director (Ribeiro, at the time).

However, a sanction decreed by the PJ isn't necessarily the end of the legal process. Again, see Cristóvão re the Joana case in which he got a 120-day suspension from the PJ disciplinary unit, but which appears to have been a separate issue to the torture trial.



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on March 14, 2016, 01:54:16 PM
@ Pegasus,

There is a confusing issue.

I find it highly unlikely that there would have been a "regular" court case concerning the breach of judicial secrecy. There is, however, a system for dealing with offences relating to the PJ.

There is a whole hierarchy involved in PJ sanctions depending on the gravity, and the sanctions have an escalating range of consequences.

This one appears to have been issued by the deputy head of the PJ (which corresponds to one of the lower levels of santions). The more serious the offence, the higher the decision-making body - which makes sense.

This one was decreed by the deputy national director, whereas booting Amaral off the case was a decision by the national director (Ribeiro, at the time).

However, a sanction decreed by the PJ isn't necessarily the end of the legal process. Again, see Cristóvão re the Joana case in which he got a 120-day suspension from the PJ disciplinary unit, but which appears to have been a separate issue to the torture trial.
Here is law 196/94, in which the relevant part is article 25 item 3
http://dre.tretas.org/dre/60685/
Much too complicated for me. More interesting is why political figures were still involved in the PDL investigation during the early arguido period from 7 Sept to 2 Oct.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on March 14, 2016, 02:13:34 PM
Here is law 196/94, in which the relevant part is article 25 item 3
http://dre.tretas.org/dre/60685/
Much too complicated for me. More interesting is why political figures were still involved in the PDL investigation during the early arguido period from 7 Sept to 2 Oct.

Thanks for that link to the PJ disciplinary regulations, as I'd only had a jpeg version of it.

25 item 3 only appears to concern the process in the event that there is no clear means of personally delivering a judicial notice to someone.

3 - No caso de impossibilidade confirmada de notificação pessoal, a decisão punitiva é publicada, por extracto, no Diário da República, 2.ª série, começando a produzir efeitos decorridos 15 dias após essa publicação.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on March 14, 2016, 02:29:34 PM
Thanks for that link to the PJ disciplinary regulations, as I'd only had a jpeg version of it.

25 item 3 only appears to concern the process in the event that there is no clear means of personally delivering a judicial notice to someone.

3 - No caso de impossibilidade confirmada de notificação pessoal, a decisão punitiva é publicada, por extracto, no Diário da República, 2.ª série, começando a produzir efeitos decorridos 15 dias após essa publicação.

So publishing a decision in DdaR legally has the same effect as notifying the person directly.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on March 14, 2016, 04:29:32 PM
Thanks for that link to the PJ disciplinary regulations, as I'd only had a jpeg version of it.

25 item 3 only appears to concern the process in the event that there is no clear means of personally delivering a judicial notice to someone.

3 - No caso de impossibilidade confirmada de notificação pessoal, a decisão punitiva é publicada, por extracto, no Diário da República, 2.ª série, começando a produzir efeitos decorridos 15 dias após essa publicação.


Don't know if this is relevant or not ... I remember reading that at one stage Mr Amaral had no fixed abode, probably before he moved back into his father's house after his marriage break-up. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 14, 2016, 09:43:28 PM
Don't know if this is relevant or not ... I remember reading that at one stage Mr Amaral had no fixed abode, probably before he moved back into his father's house after his marriage break-up.

b....r all to do with this case.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on March 14, 2016, 11:58:17 PM
Don't know if this is relevant or not ... I remember reading that at one stage Mr Amaral had no fixed abode, probably before he moved back into his father's house after his marriage break-up.
That may be the solution Brietta - no response to a letter sent old address? But do the dates match?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on March 15, 2016, 12:41:42 AM
That may be the solution Brietta - no response to a letter sent old address? But do the dates match?

No idea of the date, Pegasus or even where I read it and what the context was.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on March 15, 2016, 06:33:02 AM
No idea of the date, Pegasus or even where I read it and what the context was.

Are you thinking of the Amaral v Aragão saga? If so, that was in 2012.


Lusa News Agency, April 18, 2012
According to the Court, Gonçalo Amaral refused to give his current address, giving as his residence the address of the PSP of Olivais headquarters in Lisbon.

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2012/04/defamation-of-goncalo-amaral-by-marcos.html

That doesn't seem to fit datewise (the PJ deputy national director's despatch dates back to 30 June 2010). The other issue is that, AFAIK, if this fine related to a regular court process, the notice would have been issued by the court, not the MoJ concerning an appeal against a PJ sanction.

ETA: And re the Aragão case, he did give an address: the PSP HQ in Lisbon.





Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on March 15, 2016, 07:32:08 AM
Reading those regulations again, I think what happened is that the fine had been suspended for three years and upon appeal he got it reduced to one year.

... A pena disciplinar de multa no montante de 500,00 € sido mantida e a suspensão na sua execução sido reduzida de dois para o período mínimo de um ano, começando esta a produzir efeitos decorridos 15 dias após a publicação deste aviso no Diário da República.

If this does indeed relate to the breach concerning the publication of the book, then yes, it does seem quite light, but then in the interest of proportionality, it would have been considered less serious than the reasons that led to getting booted if that is what this means: "Criminal investigation officers, retired for various reasons of disciplinary penalty application, retain special rights..."
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on March 29, 2016, 05:21:51 PM
So yesterday marked the 11th month since the decision of the court of first instance.

What news of Amaral's appeal?

What news of gofundme justice goncalo?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 29, 2016, 05:52:17 PM
So yesterday marked the 11th month since the decision of the court of first instance.

What news of Amaral's appeal?

What news of gofundme justice goncalo?

On the basis that neither side is turning handsprings and a whoopin' an' a hollerin' I  would lay my purse on there being no news on either score at present
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on March 29, 2016, 05:59:25 PM
On the basis that neither side is turning handsprings and a whoopin' an' a hollerin' I  would lay my purse on there being no news on either score at present

The McCanns have declared themselves very pleased with the result (of the court of first-instance).

That Amaral has appealed would tend to indicate he is less pleased ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 29, 2016, 06:04:42 PM
The McCanns have declared themselves very pleased with the result (of the court of first-instance).

That Amaral has appealed would tend to indicate he is less pleased ....

Yes they are very pleased in trying to obtain more money.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on March 29, 2016, 06:09:53 PM
Yes they are very pleased in trying to obtain more money.

Is that, perhaps, a tacit admission (of characteristically ill-grace) that the McCanns are outright winners at first-instance?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 29, 2016, 06:12:39 PM
Is that, perhaps, a tacit admission (of characteristically ill-grace) that the McCanns are outright winners at first-instance?

They have yet to receive a penny.

They certainly did not succeed by quite a margin in all their claims.

Let's just wait for the appeal judgement.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on March 29, 2016, 06:27:48 PM
The McCanns have declared themselves very pleased with the result (of the court of first-instance).

That Amaral has appealed would tend to indicate he is less pleased ....

Is that news?
I thought you asked for news?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on March 29, 2016, 06:31:05 PM
Screenshot of the website of the fund which financed launching this case against Mr Amaral.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on March 29, 2016, 07:35:40 PM
Is that news?
I thought you asked for news?

I have provided a recap (on events to date).

Is there an update?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on April 14, 2016, 09:30:38 AM
So we fast approach the first anniversary of the decision of the court-instance in the libel trial (in exactly a fortnight from today).

What news of Amaral's appeal?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 14, 2016, 09:34:49 AM
So we fast approach the first anniversary of the decision of the court-instance in the libel trial (in exactly a fortnight from today).

What news of Amaral's appeal?

it does seem very strange
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on April 14, 2016, 10:06:35 AM

Perhaps they are calculating some sort of increase of The Damages.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on April 14, 2016, 10:20:11 AM
So we fast approach the first anniversary of the decision of the court-instance in the libel trial (in exactly a fortnight from today).

What news of Amaral's appeal?

There's no news as to what the PJ investigators are doing. There's no news as to what Operation Grange are doing. Why the fixation with what the appeal court is doing?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 14, 2016, 10:22:42 AM
There's no news as to what the PJ investigators are doing. There's no news as to what Operation Grange are doing. Why the fixation with what the appeal court is doing?

So the appeal is more complicated than expected, or simply delayed in the Portuguese system.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on April 14, 2016, 10:23:17 AM
It the 1st anniversary coming up, perhaps the McCann could organise an event to mark the occasion.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 14, 2016, 10:24:01 AM
There's no news as to what the PJ investigators are doing. There's no news as to what Operation Grange are doing. Why the fixation with what the appeal court is doing?

fixation.....I think interest would be a more accurate word
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on April 14, 2016, 10:28:26 AM
It the 1st anniversary coming up, perhaps the McCann could organise an event to mark the occasion.

Depositing quite a large cheque into the Madeleine Appeal Fund sounds like a fair idea.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 14, 2016, 10:31:26 AM
Depositing quite a large cheque into the Madeleine Appeal Fund sounds like a fair idea.

In your opinion and a few others........
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on April 14, 2016, 10:42:47 AM
I thought there was a time limit on appeals to the Portuguese courts, if so this one seems to be exceeding it.

Anyone have any ideas?  Is the delay the norm, or is this unusual?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on April 14, 2016, 10:58:26 AM
I thought there was a time limit on appeals to the Portuguese courts, if so this one seems to be exceeding it.

Anyone have any ideas?  Is the delay the norm, or is this unusual?

Jean-Pierre said, upstream of this thread, that appeals generally take 10 months to a year to be heard from the first-instance court.

If that's right, then there should be news of some kind very soon
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: parapono on April 14, 2016, 11:00:17 AM
The appeal was made last September. See PJGA. Appeals take from six months up to a year. So no delay at all.
Edited to correct the date. It was on the 2nd of September 2015.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on April 14, 2016, 11:04:48 AM
The appeal was made last October. Appeals take from six months up to a year. So no delay at all.

If the appeal was only lodged last October, then Amaral was too late.

He had 40 calendar days (from the point of the issue of the decision of the court of first instance) to lodge it, which would have been some point in June.

October would have been way too late ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on April 14, 2016, 11:09:46 AM
The appeal was made 2nd of September 2015. Appeals take from six months up to a year. So no delay at all.

Thanks Ferryman and thanks to you too Parapono ... so we could be talking from any time now until 2nd of September 2016.
So until then ... no delay.



Good to have you posting ... a belated welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 14, 2016, 11:10:23 AM
If the appeal was only lodged last October, then Amaral was too late.

He had 40 calendar days (from the point of the issue of the decision of the court of first instance) to lodge it, which would have been some point in June.

October would have been way too late ...

Why do you bother with that.

You know it was, and it was explained to you some time ago, on this forum.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on April 14, 2016, 11:12:59 AM
Why do you bother with that.

You know it was, and it was explained to you some time ago, on this forum.

Know what was?

And know what convoluted formula of words passed as an explanation?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 14, 2016, 11:14:00 AM
Know what was?

And know what convoluted formula of words passed as an explanation?

If you doubt it, check with the Portuguese appeal court.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: parapono on April 14, 2016, 11:15:39 AM
I stand corrected. I posted the wrong date. On the PJGA twitter account an copy of the original receipt can be found .
The date is 2nd of September 2015.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: parapono on April 14, 2016, 11:21:33 AM
Thanks Ferryman and thanks to you too Parapono ... so we could be talking from any time now until 2nd of September 2016.

So until then ... no delay.

Good to have you posting ... a belated welcome to the forum.
Thanks for the welcome:-)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 14, 2016, 11:21:45 AM
The appeal was made last September. See PJGA. Appeals take from six months up to a year. So no delay at all.
Edited to correct the date. It was on the 2nd of September 2015.

on what basis do you make the claim that appeals take 6 months to a year...how accurate is it
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: parapono on April 14, 2016, 11:24:43 AM
on what basis do you make the claim that appeals take 6 months to a year...how accurate is it

See Jean-Pierre's post further up on this thread please.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 14, 2016, 11:26:31 AM
See Jean-Pierre's post further up on this thread please.

your estimate is quite different...so please...where did you get your information from...is it accurate
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on April 14, 2016, 11:28:57 AM
If the appeal was only lodged last October, then Amaral was too late.

He had 40 calendar days (from the point of the issue of the decision of the court of first instance) to lodge it, which would have been some point in June.

October would have been way too late ...

Parapono has amended post ... date when appeal lodged was 2nd of September 2015.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on April 14, 2016, 11:34:24 AM
PT has been overhauling the management of their judicial system, with quite a few hiccups along the way. There has also been a massive backlog in civil appeals cases to deal with (dating back years), plus the fact that appeals seem to be accepted far more easily than in other jurisdictions.

This might take some time...



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on April 14, 2016, 11:51:14 AM
Parapono has amended post ... date when appeal lodged was 2nd of September 2015.

I had overlooked that the clock (on when an appeal decision is announced) starts ticking from the point that it is submitted, not from when the decision of the court of first-instance is handed down.

Still, Amaral had 40 calendar days (from when the first-instance judgement was made) to lodge his appeal.

End of April until the end of June would have been (roughly) 30 days, then he'd have had until about 10 July to submit his appeal.

2nd September would have been way too late.

So if he got his appeal in on time, the time-frame (for a decision) would be within the next couple of months
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 14, 2016, 11:55:49 AM
I had overlooked that the clock (on when an appeal decision is announced) starts ticking from the point that it is submitted, not from when the decision of the court of first-instance is handed down.

Still, Amaral had 40 calendar days (from when the first-instance judgement was made) to lodge his appeal.

End of April until the end of June would have been (roughly) 30 days, then he'd have had until about 10 July to submit his appeal.

2nd September would have been way too late.

So if he got his appeal in on time, the time-frame (for a decision) would be within the next couple of months

As I said, contact the Portuguese Appeal Court.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 14, 2016, 12:01:14 PM
PT has been overhauling the management of their judicial system, with quite a few hiccups along the way. There has also been a massive backlog in civil appeals cases to deal with (dating back years), plus the fact that appeals seem to be accepted far more easily than in other jurisdictions.

This might take some time...

That is why I questioned parapono....i don't think we have any idea when this decision will be made...everything is just guesswork
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on April 14, 2016, 12:35:02 PM
I'd have to go wading through the civil process code again.

From memory, there are strict deadlines for submitting an appeal and the notification of acceptance / rejection.

Offhand, I can't remember whether there is a legal deadline for a verdict.

I'll have a look.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 17, 2016, 10:15:24 AM
For those concerned about Amaral's fund.

http://laidbareblog.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/dear-[ censored word ]s-of-fund-for-amaral.html
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on April 17, 2016, 10:31:52 AM
For those concerned about Amaral's fund.

http://laidbareblog.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/dear-[ censored word ]-of-fund-for-amaral.html

Sorry, the page you were looking for in this blog does not exist.

Hmmmm!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 17, 2016, 11:07:59 AM
Sorry, the page you were looking for in this blog does not exist.

Hmmmm!

Incorrect ferryman, as per usual.

Go on Amazon,


Words blocked by filter on here. &%+((£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on April 17, 2016, 11:13:51 AM
Incorrect ferryman, as per usual.

Go on Amazon,


Words blocked by filter on here. &%+((£

Obscenity blocked by filter.

This board gets most things right ...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on April 17, 2016, 11:22:01 AM

I can't get that Blog Page either.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on April 17, 2016, 11:41:23 AM
For anyone in any doubt about GFM/Stripe/Portugal, here is a Portuguese resident who set up a GFM appeal on 23/3/2016 for a genuine Portuguese charity.....supported by an account in Holland.

https://www.gofundme.com/roscofoundation
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 17, 2016, 11:44:18 AM
Obscenity blocked by filter.

This board gets most things right ...


The 'obscenity' as you call it ferryman, is your opinion of Amaral.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on April 17, 2016, 01:14:05 PM
Sorry, the page you were looking for in this blog does not exist.

Hmmmm!
http://bit.ly/1XCKt5y
Totally bonkers, first time I've seen TB accused of being anti-Amaral, but contains some info about how web payments work.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on April 17, 2016, 02:27:28 PM
What the organisers if amarals defense fund do with the money is of no particular concern to me personally but I know a few people have raised questions, as they are entitled to do. 

There are undoubtedly some curious things - a few of the donations were odd - a couple of examples:

apparently a group of anonymous met police donated exactly £1000. 

A donation of £8000 was made twice a few days apart.



Any questions about the fund could be very easily laid to rest by publishing the bank statements showing monies in and monies out.   Why has this not been done?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 17, 2016, 02:43:10 PM
What the organisers if amarals defense fund do with the money is of no particular concern to me personally but I know a few people have raised questions, as they are entitled to do. 

There are undoubtedly some curious things - a few of the donations were odd - a couple of examples:

apparently a group of anonymous met police donated exactly £1000. 

A donation of £8000 was made twice a few days apart.



Any questions about the fund could be very easily laid to rest by publishing the bank statements showing monies in and monies out.   Why has this not been done?

Has a full and total breakdown of
fun the mccanns accounts been given, including funds from serialisation rights and other articles in the media ?

and if they have made money, how many PEOPLE can claim to have made money from the disappearance of their own child ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on April 17, 2016, 03:03:17 PM
Has a full and total breakdown of
fun the mccanns accounts been given, including funds from serialisation rights and other articles in the media ?

and if they have made money, how many PEOPLE can claim to have made money from the disappearance of their own child ?

Somewhat off topic Stephen - this thread is concerned with amarals appeal.  And the funding of that appeal is of course pertinent.  But an expected attempt to deflect the argument.

The mccanns fund has been formally audited by a specialist firm of chartered accountants.  I am not suggesting that amarals defence fund goes that far - just publishing a copy of the bank statement will do.  Showing dates, credits and debits.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on April 17, 2016, 03:04:51 PM
What the organisers if amarals defense fund do with the money is of no particular concern to me personally but I know a few people have raised questions, as they are entitled to do. 

There are undoubtedly some curious things - a few of the donations were odd - a couple of examples:

apparently a group of anonymous met police donated exactly £1000. 

A donation of £8000 was made twice a few days apart.



Any questions about the fund could be very easily laid to rest by publishing the bank statements showing monies in and monies out.   Why has this not been done?
That £1000 pound donation stated it was from "an anonymous but very large group of brit police officers". IMO it is obviously not from an actual police force, but is probably from a national association.
Re the 2 donations of £8000 from a non-police inter-national group of people, I suggest GFM have a maximum allowed amount per donation, and the donation of £16000 was split into two simply because it exceeded that maximum.
These donations were genuine, documented and processed by a professional and highly-regarded company, there is nothing dodgy about them at all.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on April 17, 2016, 03:28:10 PM
That £1000 pound donation stated it was from "an anonymous but very large group of brit police officers". IMO it is obviously not from an actual police force, but is probably from a national association.
Re the 2 donations of £8000 from a non-police inter-national group of people, I suggest GFM have a maximum allowed amount per donation, and the donation of £16000 was split into two simply because it exceeded that maximum.
These donations were genuine, documented and processed by a professional and highly-regarded company, there is nothing dodgy about them at all.

A donation from a 'national association'.  Really?  So why anonymous?  And this would have to be agreed, voted, etc etc.  You are having a larf.

I have no problem with Gofundme.  They simply provide a service and by all account quite efficiently.  It's what happens at the 'receiver' end that interests me.  That is when Gofundme have paid out to the bank account.  Simply publishing a copy of the bank account statement would clear this up. 

It makes me wonder what is so difficult..,,,,
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on April 17, 2016, 04:15:10 PM
A donation from a 'national association'.  Really?  So why anonymous?  And this would have to be agreed, voted, etc etc.  You are having a larf.

I have no problem with Gofundme.  They simply provide a service and by all account quite efficiently.  It's what happens at the 'receiver' end that interests me.  That is when Gofundme have paid out to the bank account.  Simply publishing a copy of the bank account statement would clear this up. 

It makes me wonder what is so difficult..,,,,
It's good that you are not disputing that someone did donate £1000.
And someone did donate £16000.
Can't be denied really because GFM certainly processed and documented those donations.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on April 17, 2016, 04:34:58 PM
It's good that you are not disputing that someone did donate £1000.
And someone did donate £16000.
Can't be denied really because GFM certainly processed and documented those donations.

Rather like they processed a donation from the Sun Newspaper?
Do you know why, when LB name was removed from the GFM appeal, the account location was shown as Portimao but the PJGA BPI branch account is located in Lisbon?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 17, 2016, 04:54:10 PM
A donation from a 'national association'.  Really?  So why anonymous?  And this would have to be agreed, voted, etc etc.  You are having a larf.

I have no problem with Gofundme.  They simply provide a service and by all account quite efficiently.  It's what happens at the 'receiver' end that interests me.  That is when Gofundme have paid out to the bank account.  Simply publishing a copy of the bank account statement would clear this up. 

It makes me wonder what is so difficult..,,,,


Is it done for every GoFundMe account that is set up?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on April 17, 2016, 05:23:29 PM
It's good that you are not disputing that someone did donate £1000.
And someone did donate £16000.
Can't be denied really because GFM certainly processed and documented those donations.

Well this is curious -

Posted by PORTUGALPRESS on September 22, 2015
An anonymous group of Portuguese “business and legal workers” have ploughed over €11,000 (£8000) into the online appeal set up by a young single mother to raise money for beleaguered ex-Maddie cop Gonçalo Amaral. Amaral’s appeal against the €600,000 in damages awarded against him in the civil case taken out by the parents of missing Madeleine is due to be decided by Lisbon’s Appellate Court “any day now”.
The cash boost has brought the Legal Defence for Gonçalo Amaral to over €65,000 (£47,010).

It raises a couple of questions. 

Why was it donated in two identical tranches a few minutes apart.

And if it was coming from a group Portuguese business and legal workers, in Euros, why was it donated via GoFundMe and not just paid into the PJGA directly? 

By the way, I have no doubt that donations were processed through GoFundMe.  It is what happens at the other end which raises some questions,  Very easily answered by publishing a bank statement as a courtesy to those who donated and who would like to see where their money has gone. 



Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 17, 2016, 05:32:19 PM
Somewhat off topic Stephen - this thread is concerned with amarals appeal.  And the funding of that appeal is of course pertinent.  But an expected attempt to deflect the argument.

The mccanns fund has been formally audited by a specialist firm of chartered accountants.  I am not suggesting that amarals defence fund goes that far - just publishing a copy of the bank statement will do.  Showing dates, credits and debits.

The point of Amaral's fund is very clear. To provide money for his legal defence against the mccanns, and any excess in due course to go to charity.

As to the mccanns accounts,  everything but clear, but definitely relevant and certainly not deflection.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on April 17, 2016, 05:32:46 PM
Rather like they processed a donation from the Sun Newspaper?
Do you know why, when LB name was removed from the GFM appeal, the account location was shown as Portimao but the PJGA BPI branch account is located in Lisbon?
It's not rocket science, the person administering the PJGA GFM appeal lived in Portimao, and the PJGA bank account is at a bank in Lisbon. And the MF company registered address is in a city where none of its directors live. And the registered addresses of some of its directors are places they do not live. This is all normal banking/legal stuff Misty - nothing suspicious at all.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 17, 2016, 05:35:24 PM
It's not rocket science, the person administering the PJGA GFM appeal lived in Portimao, and the PJGA bank account is at a bank in Lisbon. And the MF company registered address is in a city where none of its directors live.
And the registered address of at least one of its directors is in a city 100 miles from where they live. This is all normal banking/legal stuff Misty - nothing suspicious at all.

It is abundantly clear, as per normal, that the supporters are trying any avenue they can to imply the Amaral fund is non kosher. 

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on April 17, 2016, 05:38:53 PM
It's not rocket science, the person administering the PJGA GFM appeal lived in Portimao, and the PJGA bank account is at a bank in Lisbon. And the MF company registered address is in a city where none of its directors live. And the registered addresses of some of its directors are places they do not live. This is all normal banking/legal stuff Misty - nothing suspicious at all.

So Sargento no longer administers the fund?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on April 17, 2016, 05:43:23 PM
(snip) everything but clear (snip)
At least you can't accuse the latest accounts of being over-cluttered with details.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 17, 2016, 05:46:01 PM
At least you can't accuse the latest accounts of being over-cluttered with details.

Indeed Pegasus.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on April 17, 2016, 05:50:29 PM
It is abundantly clear, as per normal, that the supporters are trying any avenue they can to imply the Amaral fund is non kosher.
Even having a bank account in a capital city is now questioned.
 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 17, 2016, 06:00:23 PM
In a variation on the old Benedictine Monastery joke:
It looks like it is Brother Goncalo's turn in the barrel again.......................... &%+((£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: misty on April 17, 2016, 06:13:33 PM
Even having a bank account in a capital city is now questioned.

The BPI account has always been there. That is not in question.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 17, 2016, 06:20:54 PM
Even having a bank account in a capital city is now questioned.

It is getting ridiculous.

It has become a total obsession by some mccann supporters to attack Amaral at every turn.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on April 17, 2016, 06:25:24 PM
So Sargento no longer administers the fund?
Mr Sargento is a strong supporter of Mr Amaral and therefore I assume he is still very much involved in PJGA.
I doubt that anyone has disembarked from this ship since it was launched.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on April 17, 2016, 06:26:09 PM
Even having a bank account in a capital city is now questioned.

There seems to be a bit of a blind spot here, Pegasus.  Madeleine's Fund which is audited and published is scrutinised and criticised to the nth degree.  Whereas Mr Amaral's fund is not subject to the same criteria or any criteria at all.  To a disinterested observer that would appear to be double standards.

It would be very simple to issue a statement of money in ... and without prejudice to the minutia of the way in which Mr Amaral chooses to spend it on his legal appeal ~ a note of his outgoings.

Apart from any other consideration ... when the fund runs low, his backers would know it was time to dig deep yet again.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 17, 2016, 06:29:07 PM
There seems to be a bit of a blind spot here, Pegasus.  Madeleine's Fund which is audited and published is scrutinised and criticised to the nth degree.  Whereas Mr Amaral's fund is not subject to the same criteria or any criteria at all.  To a disinterested observer that would appear to be double standards.

It would be very simple to issue a statement of money in ... and without prejudice to the minutia of the way in which Mr Amaral chooses to spend it on his legal appeal ~ a note of his outgoings.

Apart from any other consideration ... when the fund runs low, his backers would know it was time to dig deep yet again.

The mccanns accounts are from open and give base details.

Amaral's fund is there solely for legal expenses, and excess from which I believe will be donated to charity.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on April 17, 2016, 06:30:56 PM
There seems to be a bit of a blind spot here, Pegasus.  Madeleine's Fund which is audited and published is scrutinised and criticised to the nth degree.  Whereas Mr Amaral's fund is not subject to the same criteria or any criteria at all.  To a disinterested observer that would appear to be double standards.

It would be very simple to issue a statement of money in ... and without prejudice to the minutia of the way in which Mr Amaral chooses to spend it on his legal appeal ~ a note of his outgoings.

Apart from any other consideration ... when the fund runs low, his backers would know it was time to dig deep yet again.

In context, Brietta's use of the word disinterested is absolutely semantically correct, meaning, impartial, or free of bias.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on April 17, 2016, 06:43:00 PM
In context, Brietta's use of the word disinterested is absolutely semantically correct, meaning, impartial, or free of bias.
The remit of the auditors is only to confirm that the accounts meet the legal requirements
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on April 17, 2016, 06:46:57 PM
The mccanns accounts are from open and give base details.

Amaral's fund is there solely for legal expenses, and excess from which I believe will be donated to charity.


You are a fair minded person, Stephen.

Reverse the situation.

fund (a) ... publishes accounts and is audited. It is criticised and scrutinised (forensically?)
fund (b) ... neither publishes or audits. It is not scrutinised forensically, it is not scrutinised at all neither is it criticised.

Now if fund (b) were Madeleine's and fund (a) were Amaral's ~ how fair would you consider it to malign fund (a) while being relaxed about fund (b)?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 17, 2016, 06:53:59 PM
It is getting ridiculous.

It has become a total obsession by some mccann supporters to attack Amaral at every turn.

no one on here is obsessed.....stop the insults
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 17, 2016, 06:59:04 PM

You are a fair minded person, Stephen.

Reverse the situation.

fund (a) ... publishes accounts and is audited. It is criticised and scrutinised (forensically?)
fund (b) ... neither publishes or audits. It is not scrutinised forensically, it is not scrutinised at all neither is it criticised.

Now if fund (b) were Madeleine's and fund (a) were Amaral's ~ how fair would you consider it to malign fund (a) while being relaxed about fund (b)?

When was Amaral's fund set up ?

What was Amaral's fund set up for, and of course it wasn't done by him?

Who set up the Madeleine fund, and for what purpose ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on April 17, 2016, 07:16:30 PM
The mccanns accounts are from open and give base details.

Amaral's fund is there solely for legal expenses, and excess from which I believe will be donated to charity.

It is rather curious that the very same people who denigrate the McCanns at every turn grumble against just criticism of the person who has (principally) persecuted them for having the temerity to stand up against injustice, defend their reputation against calumny and (above all) try to find their daughter ....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 17, 2016, 07:20:35 PM
It is rather curious that the very same people who denigrate the McCanns at every turn grumble against just criticism of the person who has (principally) persecuted them for having the temerity to stand up against injustice, defend their reputation against calumny and (above all) try to find their daughter ....

I'm afraid typing cliches won't help you ferryman.

Most people have seen through that act along time ago.

The injustice was against Madeleine, and many hold the mccanns responsible for that.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 17, 2016, 07:37:58 PM
I'm afraid typing cliches won't help you ferryman.

Most people have seen through that act along time ago.

The injustice was against Madeleine, and many hold the mccanns responsible for that.

and many don't
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 17, 2016, 07:39:50 PM
and many don't


Many, in the land of never. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 17, 2016, 07:42:50 PM

Many, in the land of never. 8(0(*

try to remember your opinion is not fact...the McCanns have a lot of support...imo
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 17, 2016, 07:46:31 PM
try to remember your opinion is not fact...the McCanns have a lot of support...imo

Where ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on April 17, 2016, 07:48:15 PM
The remit of the auditors is only to confirm that the accounts meet the legal requirements

You may need to brush at a bit on your company law.  8(0(*

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/part/16/chapter/3/crossheading/duties-and-rights-of-auditors

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on April 17, 2016, 07:51:09 PM
Which fund paid for the Jan 2009 trip to Lisbon and the associated legal costs?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on April 17, 2016, 07:51:50 PM
You may need to brush at a bit on your company law.  8(0(*

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/part/16/chapter/3/crossheading/duties-and-rights-of-auditors

Nope, Peggy was right.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on April 17, 2016, 07:55:22 PM
Nope, Peggy was right.

I think you may need to explain that comment.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on April 17, 2016, 07:58:43 PM
You may need to brush at a bit on your company law.  8(0(*

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/part/16/chapter/3/crossheading/duties-and-rights-of-auditors
I posted an abbreviation of that, Jean.
Can you tell me, are the auditors responsible for guaranteeing that all expenditure has been solely to further the stated "objects"?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on April 17, 2016, 08:12:22 PM
I posted an abbreviation of that, Jean.
Can you tell me, are the auditors responsible for guaranteeing that all expenditure has been solely to further the stated "objects"?

Thanks - yes I just saw that. 

Not guarantee - that would require forensic analysis.  However, the auditors can call on any records, and if they have doubts as to the integrity of the accounting records they can qualify the accounts. 

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on April 17, 2016, 08:35:17 PM
Thanks - yes I just saw that. 

Not guarantee - that would require forensic analysis.  However, the auditors can call on any records, and if they have doubts as to the integrity of the accounting records they can qualify the accounts.

Nothing to do with the company objects?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on April 17, 2016, 08:55:12 PM
I posted an abbreviation of that, Jean.
Can you tell me, are the auditors responsible for guaranteeing that all expenditure has been solely to further the stated "objects"?

No. That would be the responsibility of the directors.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on April 17, 2016, 08:56:33 PM
I'm afraid typing cliches won't help you ferryman.

Most people have seen through that act along time ago.

The injustice was against Madeleine, and many hold the mccanns responsible for that.

Kate McCann did say that they had let her down. 
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on April 17, 2016, 09:10:57 PM
I think you may need to explain that comment.
Especially as I don't know the first thing about auditing.
I'm just curious which of the "objects" the Jan 2009 trip was for.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on April 17, 2016, 09:21:36 PM
There are a number of threads which address the No Stone Unturned company, and associated accounting.

This thread is dedicated to Amarals appeal.  And the funding of that is pertinent to the subject of this thread.

I am certainly not suggesting that debate about the McCanns fund, or financial arrangements, should be supressed.

I am intrigued that certain posters seem to object so strongly to a suggestion that the Amaral defence fund should be subject to any scrutiny.  What I would like to see is a bank statement, covering the period where the GoFundMe fundraising was in operation. 

What is the problem with providing this information?

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on April 17, 2016, 09:31:22 PM
There are a number of threads which address the No Stone Unturned company, and associated accounting.

This thread is dedicated to Amarals appeal.  And the funding of that is pertinent to the subject of this thread.

I am certainly not suggesting that debate about the McCanns fund, or financial arrangements, should be supressed.

I am intrigued that certain posters seem to object so strongly to a suggestion that the Amaral defence fund should be subject to any scrutiny.  What I would like to see is a bank statement, covering the period where the GoFundMe fundraising was in operation. 

What is the problem with providing this information?

As a fund, Amaral's never promised to be transparent and was for one purpose only.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on April 17, 2016, 09:40:56 PM
There are a number of threads which address the No Stone Unturned company, and associated accounting.

This thread is dedicated to Amarals appeal.  And the funding of that is pertinent to the subject of this thread.

I am certainly not suggesting that debate about the McCanns fund, or financial arrangements, should be supressed.

I am intrigued that certain posters seem to object so strongly to a suggestion that the Amaral defence fund should be subject to any scrutiny.  What I would like to see is a bank statement, covering the period where the GoFundMe fundraising was in operation. 

What is the problem with providing this information?
Good idea for PJGA and also why don't MF publish their bank records too? So the many donators will be able to see exactly how much was paid to M3 and to that other company (information which is rather difficult to find in uninformative CH accounts)
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on April 17, 2016, 10:02:32 PM
As a fund, Amaral's never promised to be transparent and was for one purpose only.

Fair enough.  In that case there will always be a big question mark over the "defence fund".  I am beginning to smell a big rat.    ?{)(**
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on April 17, 2016, 10:05:09 PM
Fair enough.  In that case there will always be a big question mark over the "defence fund".  I am beginning to smell a big rat.    ?{)(**

It would be a bigger rat if it promised to be transparent and wasn't.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 17, 2016, 10:19:20 PM
I reckon those who can smell the jolly old Siberian hamster and have all this compelling evidence (ha ha) that something untoward is going on should stop whingeing about it on here and behave like the upholders of justice they say they are and report it to the appropriate authorities complete with dossier of evidence.  ?{)(**
Well it would be a little more constructive wouldn't it Billy?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on April 17, 2016, 10:39:07 PM
I reckon those who can smell the jolly old Siberian hamster and have all this compelling evidence (ha ha) that something untoward is going on should stop whingeing about it on here and behave like the upholders of justice they say they are and report it to the appropriate authorities complete with dossier of evidence.  ?{)(**
Well it would be a little more constructive wouldn't it Billy?

Given the money in question was in the form of gifts, I do not think there is anything illegal going on.  So nowt reportable.  Just an interesting observation of double standards.  I shall say no more about it.   ?{)(**
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 17, 2016, 11:22:11 PM
Given the money in question was in the form of gifts, I do not think there is anything illegal going on.  So nowt reportable.  Just an interesting observation of double standards.  I shall say no more about it.   ?{)(**

As in each party is doing the minimum it is required to by law?, apart from the audit by "The Fund" which is no great shakes. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Don't say you are doing something else though.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on April 17, 2016, 11:26:20 PM
Fair enough.  In that case there will always be a big question mark over the "defence fund".  I am beginning to smell a big rat.    ?{)(**
You speak of rats but have so far not come up with any Jean, and anyway you certainly can't claim that Sr Amaral went on a trip to London to meddle in the Bournemouth election (and as it turned out there was no need anyway). PJGA is squeaky clean, there are no rats for you to find.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on April 18, 2016, 02:06:09 AM
As in each party is doing the minimum it is required to by law?, apart from the audit by "The Fund" which is no great shakes. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Don't say you are doing something else though.

I don't think either fund is a matter of any great interest, Alice.

Of interest is the pejorative treatment meted out to one but no questions asked about the other ~ and the complete failure to recognise that sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

If there is a fund set up to pay for Mr Amaral's lawyers, no-one need lose any sleep over it except for those who were infighting over it. Just found some of the controversy while browsing something entirely different.  LOL Misty should set up in business with a crystal ball ... she predicted as much and the posts are probably still on this thread.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on April 18, 2016, 09:46:36 AM
It is getting ridiculous.

It has become a total obsession by some mccann supporters to attack Amaral at every turn.

Oh the irony.


Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on April 18, 2016, 10:02:56 AM

Off Topic and Pointless Posts will be removed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 18, 2016, 10:06:25 AM
Oh the irony.

The irony is in your court, as per normal.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 18, 2016, 10:39:51 AM
I don't think either fund is a matter of any great interest, Alice. I would tend to agree

Of interest is the pejorative treatment meted out to one but no questions asked about the other ~ and the complete failure to recognise that sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.If you set yourselves up like two bunches of kids in the playground pretending they are at Wembley what do you expect?

If there is a fund set up to pay for Mr Amaral's lawyers, no-one need lose any sleep over it except for those who were infighting over it. Just found some of the controversy while browsing something entirely different.  LOL Misty should set up in business with a crystal ball ... she predicted as much and the posts are probably still on this thread.Oooh do tell  ?{)(**
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Brietta on April 18, 2016, 11:33:42 AM
I don't think either fund is a matter of any great interest, Alice. I would tend to agree

Of interest is the pejorative treatment meted out to one but no questions asked about the other ~ and the complete failure to recognise that sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.If you set yourselves up like two bunches of kids in the playground pretending they are at Wembley what do you expect?

If there is a fund set up to pay for Mr Amaral's lawyers, no-one need lose any sleep over it except for those who were infighting over it. Just found some of the controversy while browsing something entirely different.  LOL Misty should set up in business with a crystal ball ... she predicted as much and the posts are probably still on this thread.Oooh do tell  ?{)(**


I don't think either fund is a matter of any great interest, Alice. I would tend to agree
Sometimes great minds think alike :)

Of interest is the pejorative treatment meted out to one but no questions asked about the other ~ and the complete failure to recognise that sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.If you set yourselves up like two bunches of kids in the playground pretending they are at Wembley what do you expect?
Would it be considered childish of me to suggest that one gang started it?

If there is a fund set up to pay for Mr Amaral's lawyers, no-one need lose any sleep over it except for those who were infighting over it. Just found some of the controversy while browsing something entirely different.  LOL Misty should set up in business with a crystal ball ... she predicted as much and the posts are probably still on this thread.Oooh do tell  ?{)(**

My lips are sealed ...  £4%4£ ... but it seems to have been a good going spat for all that
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 18, 2016, 11:40:26 AM

I don't think either fund is a matter of any great interest, Alice. I would tend to agree
Sometimes great minds think alike :)

Of interest is the pejorative treatment meted out to one but no questions asked about the other ~ and the complete failure to recognise that sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.If you set yourselves up like two bunches of kids in the playground pretending they are at Wembley what do you expect?
Would it be considered childish of me to suggest that one gang started it?

If there is a fund set up to pay for Mr Amaral's lawyers, no-one need lose any sleep over it except for those who were infighting over it. Just found some of the controversy while browsing something entirely different.  LOL Misty should set up in business with a crystal ball ... she predicted as much and the posts are probably still on this thread.Oooh do tell  ?{)(**

My lips are sealed ...  £4%4£ ... but it seems to have been a good going spat for all that

I have a theory about that but posting it would be akin to volunteering to be "Bulldog", in that both sides will pile in  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: John on April 23, 2016, 07:43:38 PM
Former UK Ambassador Craig Murray confirms that Met Police did donate to the Gonçalo Amaral appeal fund.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 08:06:50 PM
Former UK Ambassador Craig Murray confirms that Met Police did donate to the Gonçalo Amaral appeal fund.

#Disciplinary charges[edit]
Some of the embassy staff were sacked in July 2003 while Murray was away on holiday. They were reinstated after he expressed his outrage to the FCO. Later during the same holiday he was recalled to London for disciplinary reasons. He was confronted with 18 charges on 21 August 2003. These included "hiring dolly birds [pretty young women] for above the usual rate" for the visa department, although Murray said that the department had an all-male staff, and Murray was accused of granting British visas to Uzbek women in exchange for sex in his office.[10] The FCO gave him a week to resign and told him that discussing the charges would be a violation of the Official Secrets Act 1989.[10]

He collapsed during a medical check in Tashkent on 2 September 2003 and was airlifted to St Thomas Hospital in London. After an FCO internal inquiry conducted by Tony Crombie, Head of the FCO's Overseas Territories Department, all but two of the charges (being drunk at work and misusing the embassy's Land Rover) were dropped. The charges were leaked to the press in October 2003.[15]



seems like a pretty reliable source John
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 08:09:51 PM
Another person smeared for speaking out against the McCanns.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 08:12:19 PM
Another person smeared for speaking out against the McCanns.

these charges were in 2003....
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 08:13:28 PM
these charges were in 2003....

Yes, but brought to light again now, by you, just after Murray wrote his blog.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on April 23, 2016, 08:13:32 PM
Former UK Ambassador Craig Murray confirms that Met Police did donate to the Gonçalo Amaral appeal fund.

Oh my oh my oh my, well, there you go
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 08:16:17 PM
Yes, but brought to light again now, by you, just after Murray wrote his blog.

Following the United Kingdom Parliamentary expenses scandal, Murray stood for election in the July 2009 Norwich North by-election under the slogan "Put an honest man into Parliament".[30] He polled 953 votes (2.77%) putting him in sixth place out of twelve candidates.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 08:18:12 PM
Is  that relevant to anything?

I have to say your researchers have been very busy.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 08:23:42 PM
Is  that relevant to anything?

I have to say your researchers have been very busy.

it took me 1 min on google from a wiki site...when poeple have so much of a poor history it can be found very quickly
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 08:24:45 PM
it took me 1 min on google from a wiki site...when poeple have so much of a poor history it can be found very quickly

Maybe, but 999 out of 1000 wouldn't even bother.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on April 23, 2016, 08:26:42 PM
The pertinent thing here is loads of SY officers donated...hang on...they must all be TROLLS

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 08:36:55 PM
these charges were in 2003....

It doesn't mean dave that members of SY didn't donate to Amaral's fund.

 8**8:/:

So how does that make you feel , that members of SY think the abduction is a total crock of BS.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 08:38:02 PM
It doesn't mean dave that members of SY didn't donate to Amaral's fund.

 8**8:/:

So how does that make you feel , that members of SY think the abduction is a total crock of BS.

And it doesn't mean that they did
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2016, 08:40:02 PM
Why are so many people offended by what is being done to Amaral?  Isn't this what Free Speech is all about?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 08:40:07 PM
And it doesn't mean that they did

They have dave.


I already knew. £4%4%
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 08:41:38 PM
Why are so many people offended by what is being done to Amaral?  Isn't this what Free Speech is all about?

As I said Eleanor, If the mccanns and co., have done what I think they have, they will regret it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 08:41:58 PM
Maybe, but 999 out of 1000 wouldn't even bother.
. But I'm interested in the truth and want to see how reliable any evidence is
So drunk at work and offering visas for sex
Should I be a little careful on believing what he says
I would say yes
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 08:44:51 PM
You just like to spread the dirt on someone who critised the McCann - no other reason to highlight it.
It has no relevance to the McCann case at all,
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 08:45:37 PM
. But I'm interested in the truth and want to see how reliable any evidence is
So drunk at work and offering visas for sex
Should I be a little careful on believing what he says
I would say yes

It's too late dave.

The secret is out.

Members of SY and other police donated to Amaral's fund.

....and dave, I already knew that. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 08:45:57 PM
As I said Eleanor, If the mccanns and co., have done what I think they have, they will regret it.

i think you are misguided about what the McCanns do ...you think posters on here are working for them for a start
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2016, 08:46:08 PM
As I said Eleanor, If the mccanns and co., have done what I think they have, they will regret it.

But only if what you think, Stephen.  And nothing to support that in nine years.

Meanwhile, we all know what Amaral was up to.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: faithlilly on April 23, 2016, 08:46:33 PM
Why are so many people offended by what is being done to Amaral?  Isn't this what Free Speech is all about?

So you're an advocate of free speech now are you Eleanor ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 08:47:10 PM
i think you are misguided about what the McCanns do ...you think posters on here are working for them for a start


Can you prove they aren't ?  Do you know them all personally?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 08:47:14 PM
It's too late dave.

The secret is out.

Members of SY and other police donated to Amaral's fund.

....and dave, I already knew that. 8((()*/

not really important...we all know some police are not that bright don't we
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 08:49:15 PM

Can you prove they aren't ?  Do you know them all personally?

well I have been accused of doing such...of knowing the mccanns ..of being in love with kate...and I know all that is rubbish
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2016, 08:49:45 PM
So you're an advocate of free speech now are you Eleanor ?

When it comes with the required responsibilities.  Personally, I think it is best kept schtum.  But do carry on if you must.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 08:51:11 PM
not really important...we all know some police are not that bright don't we

Are you talking about the heads of Operation Grange dave ?

That's naughty
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 08:52:30 PM
Are you talking about the heads of Operation Grange dave ?

That's naughty

No, that one was let go.  He was thick.  The current one is supposed to be clever.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 08:54:28 PM


There is no one on this forum who knows or is working for the mccanns...unless you can provide proof...which you cannot...then that is the position
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 23, 2016, 08:58:57 PM
i have been  reading  GA  will be on portugese tv with 4 of the  former  pjs with him?? 8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2016, 08:59:17 PM
There is no one on this forum who knows or is working for the mccanns...unless you can provide proof...which you cannot...then that is the position

This is sounding like some sort of gross paranoia to me.  But who can prove otherwise?  So let's go along with it.

The McCann Supporters on this Forum are all working for The McCanns.  So bloody what.  Now what?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 23, 2016, 09:01:11 PM
Get 'em Gonçalo ‏@abuseofpower  11m11 minutes ago
Amaral & 4 PJ officers who worked on #mccann case being interviewed on  Portuguese TV at 11.30 tonight & he is going to "tell everything."
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 09:01:35 PM
i have been  reading  GA  will be on portugese tv with 4 of the  former  pjs with him?? 8(0(*

Excellent.

More good news.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2016, 09:01:46 PM
i have been  reading  GA  will be on portugese tv with 4 of the  former  pjs with him?? 8(0(*

Oh God.  Not in his pyjamas.  I don't think I can handle that.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 09:02:10 PM
Get 'em Gonçalo ‏@abuseofpower  11m11 minutes ago
Amaral & 4 PJ officers who worked on #mccann case being interviewed on  Portuguese TV at 11.30 tonight & he is going to "tell everything."

Excellent timing.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 09:05:21 PM
You're getting paranoid.

You can be rest assured I have the PM, and a safe copy.
as I said no proof..not even any evidence...we already know you have completely misinterpreted something else that was said at levenson..we have just had a quote from  a british ambassador...and look at what a closer look at that has produced
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 09:05:51 PM
Oh God.  Not in his pyjamas.  I don't think I can handle that.

Well, miles better than gerry mccann in his jammies. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 09:06:40 PM
Well, miles better than gerry mccann in his jammies. @)(++(*

Shouldn't that be jemmies ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 23, 2016, 09:06:57 PM
Well, miles better than gerry mccann in his jammies. @)(++(*

or in speedos 8)><( @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 09:07:52 PM
Excellent timing.

no doubt they will tell us dogs dont lie and the dogs have never been wrong in 200 cases
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 09:08:04 PM
as I said no proof..not even any evidence...we already know you have completely misinterpreted something else that was said at levenson..we have just had a quote from  a british ambassador...and look at what a closer look at that has produced

Don't worry dave.

It's too late.

People know.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 09:08:45 PM
Shouldn't that be jemmies ?

Oh, you're too cruel.  *&*%£
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 09:09:16 PM
no doubt they will tell us dogs dont lie and the dogs have never been wrong in 200 cases

Dream on.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 09:11:08 PM
Dream on.

lets see what rubbish...and it will be rubbish...they come out with
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on April 23, 2016, 09:11:57 PM
It is rumoured it will be on CMTV
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 09:12:20 PM
Get 'em Gonçalo ‏@abuseofpower  11m11 minutes ago
Amaral & 4 PJ officers who worked on #mccann case being interviewed on  Portuguese TV at 11.30 tonight & he is going to "tell everything."

we already know..everything
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 23, 2016, 09:12:56 PM
lets see what rubbish...and it will be rubbish...they come out with

5  police officers    cant be  wrong  davel
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 09:13:12 PM
It is rumoured it will be on CMTV

and others. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 09:14:20 PM
lets see what rubbish...and it will be rubbish...they come out with

You mean, like the 'abduction' ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: mercury on April 23, 2016, 09:14:30 PM
It is rumoured it will be on CMTV

Should be  interesting, indeed

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 23, 2016, 09:15:03 PM
and others. 8((()*/

 8)-))) its been a  bad  week for the mcanns  and supporters hasent  it
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 09:15:13 PM
You mean, like the 'abduction' ?
   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2016, 09:15:35 PM
5  police officers    cant be  wrong  davel

Five?  As many as that.  Oh My.  Have you got their names?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 09:15:58 PM
5  police officers    cant be  wrong  davel
if they are portuguese and colleagues of amaral not only can they be wrong...they are wrong...as anyone will see when they produce their "evidence"
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 09:16:08 PM
8)-))) its been a  bad  week for the mcanns  and supporters hasent  it

Yep.

It is going to get worse.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 09:17:22 PM
I think it would be better to see what evidence...we know there is none...they produce to support their case
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 23, 2016, 09:18:56 PM
or in speedos 8)><( @)(++(*

get rid of the s  8(0(*
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 23, 2016, 09:20:00 PM
get rid of the s  8(0(*
speedo are very disturbing  lol especally on middle aged  men  @)(++(*

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 09:20:32 PM
I think it would be better to see what evidence...we know there is none...they produce to support their case


I'm sure you won't believe it, whatever it is .
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on April 23, 2016, 09:21:21 PM
Would it be mathematically correct to  describe them as a handful of PJ Davel?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 23, 2016, 09:21:39 PM

thats what happens  jassi  when you  refuse to have an open mind isnt  it   or when  you idolise  people so much that  you cant  see reality
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 09:22:31 PM
Would it be mathematically correct to refer to describe them as a handful of PJ Davel?

 @)(++(* 8((()*/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 09:22:36 PM

I'm sure you won't believe it, whatever it is .

I will assess it and then decide its worth...as I said it will probably be dogs dont lie and not wrong in 200 cases
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2016, 09:22:51 PM
speedo are very disturbing  lol especally on middle aged  men  @)(++(*

Good God.  Someone call The Vice Squad.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 09:23:55 PM
Would it be mathematically correct to  describe them as a handful of PJ Davel?

I think kates description is more accurate
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 09:43:17 PM
I think kates description is more accurate

No, it's far more applicable To 2 other people.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on April 27, 2016, 07:48:45 PM
26 Apr 2016
Statement
Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral (PJGA) was set up by a group of his friends on 1 November, 2009, in response to the decision by Gerry & Kate McCann to take legal action against Gonçalo Amaral and others.

The McCanns sought not only to suspend sales of the book “Maddie: A Verdade da Mentira”, but to demand the sum of €1,2 million from Dr. Amaral.

A second injunction succeeded in freezing Dr. Amaral's assets and income, denying him the opportunity to defend himself in court.

On 20 November 2009, a defence fund was launched. Its purpose was to help enable Dr. Amaral to fight the legal action that was brought against him by the McCanns.

The fund has remained at all times independent of Dr Amaral. It is beyond reach of any compensation claim. Any funds remaining after all legal expenses are met are to be donated to a Portuguese children's charity.

In April 2015, as the legal action dragged on and costs were becoming difficult to handle, an approach was made to the friends who created PJGA, suggesting that a GoFundMe page be launched to generate additional funds.

PJGA cooperated with Leanne Baulch, who fronted this part of the appeal, to bring this to being on 29 April 2015.

Let us be clear: all donations made to the GoFundMe page, minus the commission deducted automatically by GoFundMe, were paid directly into the one bank account that has been held by friends of Dr Amaral since PJGA was created.

Leanne, having successfully promoted the GoFundMe page, handed over its control to the group of friends who coordinate PJGA, for personal reasons that are unrelated to the legal action. We are hugely grateful for her initiative.

On 21 October 2015, when it was considered that sufficient funds had been raised, it was decided the GoFundMe page would be closed on 28 October 2015.

The fund has been able to support Dr Amaral in his successful appeal against the McCanns' actions and at this moment contains adequate funds for a sound legal defence should the case be brought to Supreme Court. PJGA will continue to support Dr Amaral's legal costs should this happen. The PJGA legal defence fund remains open.

For the purpose of clarity, the suggestions of impropriety by anyone connected with the defence fund are false.

The group of friends and Mr Amaral himself remain eternally grateful for your support in allowing a man to defend himself in court and for justice to prevail.

We will endeavour to keep you informed as and when we receive further information regarding the re-appeal.
http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 27, 2016, 07:51:53 PM
26 Apr 2016
Statement
Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral (PJGA) was set up by a group of his friends on 1 November, 2009, in response to the decision by Gerry & Kate McCann to take legal action against Gonçalo Amaral and others.

The McCanns sought not only to suspend sales of the book “Maddie: A Verdade da Mentira”, but to demand the sum of €1,2 million from Dr. Amaral.

A second injunction succeeded in freezing Dr. Amaral's assets and income, denying him the opportunity to defend himself in court.

On 20 November 2009, a defence fund was launched. Its purpose was to help enable Dr. Amaral to fight the legal action that was brought against him by the McCanns.

The fund has remained at all times independent of Dr Amaral. It is beyond reach of any compensation claim. Any funds remaining after all legal expenses are met are to be donated to a Portuguese children's charity.

In April 2015, as the legal action dragged on and costs were becoming difficult to handle, an approach was made to the friends who created PJGA, suggesting that a GoFundMe page be launched to generate additional funds.

PJGA cooperated with Leanne Baulch, who fronted this part of the appeal, to bring this to being on 29 April 2015.

Let us be clear: all donations made to the GoFundMe page, minus the commission deducted automatically by GoFundMe, were paid directly into the one bank account that has been held by friends of Dr Amaral since PJGA was created.

Leanne, having successfully promoted the GoFundMe page, handed over its control to the group of friends who coordinate PJGA, for personal reasons that are unrelated to the legal action. We are hugely grateful for her initiative.

On 21 October 2015, when it was considered that sufficient funds had been raised, it was decided the GoFundMe page would be closed on 28 October 2015.

The fund has been able to support Dr Amaral in his successful appeal against the McCanns' actions and at this moment contains adequate funds for a sound legal defence should the case be brought to Supreme Court. PJGA will continue to support Dr Amaral's legal costs should this happen. The PJGA legal defence fund remains open.

For the purpose of clarity, the suggestions of impropriety by anyone connected with the defence fund are false.

The group of friends and Mr Amaral himself remain eternally grateful for your support in allowing a man to defend himself in court and for justice to prevail.

We will endeavour to keep you informed as and when we receive further information regarding the re-appeal.
http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/

Thanks for that G-Unit. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 27, 2016, 08:08:12 PM
And that no doubt really rankles with you - that they provided the where withal for Amaral to defend his case.

The mccann supporters have yet to get over, let alone comprehend the importance and implications of last week's judgement.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 27, 2016, 08:14:36 PM
And that no doubt really rankles with you - that they provided the where withal for Amaral to defend his case.

#doesn't  rankle me at all... I would be shocked of these people actually had something genuine to say rather than the lies they believe,,,,it reinforces the weakness of the arguments used by those who attack the mccanns
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 27, 2016, 08:16:24 PM
#doesn't  rankle me at all... I would be shocked of these people actually had something genuine to say rather than the lies they believe,,,,it reinforces the weakness of the arguments used by those who attack the mccanns

The weakness is the abduction thesis.

Gone nowhere, for very obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on April 27, 2016, 08:18:03 PM
The weakness is the abduction thesis.

Gone nowhere, for very obvious reasons.


Indeed. Obvious from the beginning that it would be a dead-end.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 27, 2016, 08:19:37 PM
The mccann supporters have yet to get over, let alone comprehend the importance and implications of last week's judgement.

some of us are quite intelligent and understand exactly what is hapenning
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 27, 2016, 08:20:32 PM
The weakness is the abduction thesis.

Gone nowhere, for very obvious reasons.

could you tell me why the abduction thesis is a weakness...do you think amarals body in  a coffin is more likely
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on April 27, 2016, 08:27:07 PM
the fund was supported by people who had been misled ...who had been fed and believed lies.....that is an absolute fact proved by the comments on the site...

there is no evidence the abduction is a myth,,,just your opinion again

No-one cares what the supporters or the MSM  think, davel. Whatever their reasons, people donated to give a man his day in court. The judgement justifies what they did. Without it he may not have been able to appeal and a flawed judgement would have stood.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 27, 2016, 08:29:52 PM
some of us are quite intelligent and understand exactly what is hapenning

The intelligent ones among us can see the mccanns have lost big time, and the abduction thesis is dead in the water.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on April 27, 2016, 08:52:50 PM
The intelligent ones among us can see the mccanns have lost big time, and the abduction thesis is dead in the water.

How do you reach that conclusion Stephen?  The trial was concerned solely with amarals right to freedom of speech.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on April 27, 2016, 08:53:11 PM
some of us are quite intelligent and understand exactly what is hapenning

Some of you don't seem to have grasped what's happened, Amaral won his appeal, all the points raised by the first judge were refuted and the McCann's legal action against Amaral was deemed unfounded (without merit).
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 27, 2016, 08:54:53 PM
The intelligent ones among us can see the mccanns have lost big time, and the abduction thesis is dead in the water.

'Dead in the water'  7pm... next weeks CM special.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: ferryman on April 27, 2016, 08:57:51 PM
How do you reach that conclusion Stephen?  The trial was concerned solely with amarals right to freedom of speech.

Together with the suggestion (I believe found by Carana, although certainly not suggested by her) that (apparently) while a police officer can't breach judicial secrecy, a civilian (as Amaral became after exiting service with the police) can.

Was it something like that?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 27, 2016, 08:59:27 PM
Some of you don't seem to have grasped what's happened, Amaral won his appeal, all the points raised by the first judge were refuted and the McCann's legal action against Amaral was deemed unfounded (without merit).
so who exactly hasn't understood that
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: jassi on April 27, 2016, 09:01:45 PM
It seems not so much a issue of understanding , more an issue of accepting the verdict
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on April 27, 2016, 09:02:20 PM
amarals appeal for funds was supported by lies... i think that is quite important

Amaral didn't appeal for funds. Leanne Baulch did it on his behalf, and very successfully too. There are those on both sides who haven't grasped the finer points of the case, but they all know who they believe in and support.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: slartibartfast on April 28, 2016, 06:56:15 AM
Mod: Note, accusing GA of telling lies is libellous and will be removed.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 28, 2016, 07:39:37 AM


Watch the Saturday night program.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 28, 2016, 07:40:51 AM
Watch the Saturday night program.

if you want to contradict what I am saying with evidence please do....my comments support my statements
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 28, 2016, 07:43:00 AM
if you want to contradict what I am saying with evidence please do....my comments support my statements

Let's start with a rather key point.

The mccanns said at the start the apartment was locked, which then became unlocked.

Now which is the lie ?

Typing in bold won't help.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on April 28, 2016, 07:47:51 AM
Together with the suggestion (I believe found by Carana, although certainly not suggested by her) that (apparently) while a police officer can't breach judicial secrecy, a civilian (as Amaral became after exiting service with the police) can.

Was it something like that?

There are two issues, FM.

One is judicial secrecy, i.e. not divulging the contents of the investigation until they were formally made public (which he most certainly breached in the publishing process).

The other is the duty of confidentiality or "reserve". No serving PJ officer is allowed to comment on cases without official authorization (and even then it's normally the national PJ director). The issue is whether that rule still applies in retirement.

The current appeal ruling has said that it doesn't apply.

The a quo judge thought differently.

 Under the Disciplinary Regulation of the Judicial Police, the duty of confidentiality is one of the general duties of the members of the Judicial Police [cf. art 5-e of the Regulation approved by Decree-Law No. 196/94, of July 21]. ( 28 )

Alongside this general duty of confidentiality, the Organic Law of the Judicial Police requires from the civil servants working in the Judicial Police a duty of reserve, prescribing that

(...) they cannot make public disclosures related to lawsuits or matter of reserved nature other than what is provided for in this law on public information and preventive actions among the population and also the provisions of the criminal procedure law [art 12-2]. ( 29 )

Even so the statements, when admissible,
(…) are subjects to prior authorisation provided by the national director or the national deputy directors, at risk of disciplinary proceedings, maintaining the eventual criminal liability [art 12-3]. ( 30 ) The duty of reserve is a functional requirement common to magistrates and organs of criminal police. As an example, in the case of the magistrates of the Public Ministry, the ordinary law postulates that this duty will remain after retirement, establishing the article 148-7 of the Statute that retired judges must respect the reserve required by their condition.

It is a duty that is essential to the preservation of public confidence in the institutions of the administration of justice. The duty of reserve protects the purposes of the criminal action, but also the physical and moral integrity, the freedom and the dignity of those concerned by that action.
 
Page 43

The criminal investigation officers, retired for various reasons of disciplinary penalty application, retain special rights, being holders of an identification card for recognition of their quality and the rights they enjoy [paragraphs 1 and and 2 of article 149 of the Organic Law of the Judicial Police and Ordinance No. 96/2002 of 31 January].

The statute of the retirement [approved by Decree-Law 498/72 of 9 December] establishes, from its original wording in the respective artº 74, paragraph 1, that
the retired, apart from his right to a retirement pension, remains bound to the civil service, keeping the titles and the category of the position he held and the rights and duties that do not depend on being in activity.

According to the notice of the Attorney General Department's advisory Council on February 16, 2006 (Esteves Remedio, in www.ministeriopublico.pt )
the legal relationship of retirement is, compared to the legal relationship of public employment, a relationship less intense where there is a blurring of the ties between the retired and the Administration, translated in the reduction of rights and duties. There is even so a "bond to the civil service", which materialises in conserving the titles and the position of the function exercised and the rights and duties that are not dependent on activity status "(emphasis added). The same note concluded that "the retired remains subject to duties of private conduct translated in particular in the abstention of practice of facts integrators of crimes that have a relevant connection with the functions previously carried out and thus affect actually the functioning of the service or in a serious way the dignity and the prestige of the function or of the Administration (idem).

Bearing in mind that legal mosaic, how to solve the conflict in this case between the rights of the claimants Gerald and Kate McCann to their good name and reputation and the defendant Goncalo Amaral's right to his opinion as resorting to freedom of expression he's entitled to ?


It appears that the conflict should be solved with the fact data that are present from the outset and that reveal the special condition of the defendant in front of the criminal investigation, condition that he capitalises in the book, the interview and the documentary.

http://gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 28, 2016, 07:48:36 AM
if what amaral says is true then I would be calling for the arrest of the Mccanns...the fact is...it isn't..it is lies...but poeple have believed him and use these supposed facts...which are lies...to accuse the mccanns..

if my truly accurate posts are removed then the truth is being censored

Can you remind me when the accidental death scenario was ruled out ?

.....and as SY detectives and other officers have donated to Amaral, it brings to a close that all of SY support the abduction.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 28, 2016, 07:48:45 AM
John has suggested we have  a thread to discuss the book....i think this would be a very good idea
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 28, 2016, 07:49:48 AM
There are two issues, FM.

One is judicial secrecy, i.e. not divulging the contents of the investigation until they were formally made public (which he most certainly breached in the publishing process).

The other is the duty of confidentiality or "reserve". No serving PJ officer is allowed to comment on cases without official authorization (and even then it's normally the national PJ director). The issue is whether that rule still applies in retirement.

The current appeal ruling has said that it doesn't apply.

The a quo judge thought differently.

 Under the Disciplinary Regulation of the Judicial Police, the duty of confidentiality is one of the general duties of the members of the Judicial Police [cf. art 5-e of the Regulation approved by Decree-Law No. 196/94, of July 21]. ( 28 )

Alongside this general duty of confidentiality, the Organic Law of the Judicial Police requires from the civil servants working in the Judicial Police a duty of reserve, prescribing that

(...) they cannot make public disclosures related to lawsuits or matter of reserved nature other than what is provided for in this law on public information and preventive actions among the population and also the provisions of the criminal procedure law [art 12-2]. ( 29 )

Even so the statements, when admissible,
(…) are subjects to prior authorisation provided by the national director or the national deputy directors, at risk of disciplinary proceedings, maintaining the eventual criminal liability [art 12-3]. ( 30 ) The duty of reserve is a functional requirement common to magistrates and organs of criminal police. As an example, in the case of the magistrates of the Public Ministry, the ordinary law postulates that this duty will remain after retirement, establishing the article 148-7 of the Statute that retired judges must respect the reserve required by their condition.

It is a duty that is essential to the preservation of public confidence in the institutions of the administration of justice. The duty of reserve protects the purposes of the criminal action, but also the physical and moral integrity, the freedom and the dignity of those concerned by that action.
 
Page 43

The criminal investigation officers, retired for various reasons of disciplinary penalty application, retain special rights, being holders of an identification card for recognition of their quality and the rights they enjoy [paragraphs 1 and and 2 of article 149 of the Organic Law of the Judicial Police and Ordinance No. 96/2002 of 31 January].

The statute of the retirement [approved by Decree-Law 498/72 of 9 December] establishes, from its original wording in the respective artº 74, paragraph 1, that
the retired, apart from his right to a retirement pension, remains bound to the civil service, keeping the titles and the category of the position he held and the rights and duties that do not depend on being in activity.

According to the notice of the Attorney General Department's advisory Council on February 16, 2006 (Esteves Remedio, in www.ministeriopublico.pt )
the legal relationship of retirement is, compared to the legal relationship of public employment, a relationship less intense where there is a blurring of the ties between the retired and the Administration, translated in the reduction of rights and duties. There is even so a "bond to the civil service", which materialises in conserving the titles and the position of the function exercised and the rights and duties that are not dependent on activity status "(emphasis added). The same note concluded that "the retired remains subject to duties of private conduct translated in particular in the abstention of practice of facts integrators of crimes that have a relevant connection with the functions previously carried out and thus affect actually the functioning of the service or in a serious way the dignity and the prestige of the function or of the Administration (idem).

Bearing in mind that legal mosaic, how to solve the conflict in this case between the rights of the claimants Gerald and Kate McCann to their good name and reputation and the defendant Goncalo Amaral's right to his opinion as resorting to freedom of expression he's entitled to ?


It appears that the conflict should be solved with the fact data that are present from the outset and that reveal the special condition of the defendant in front of the criminal investigation, condition that he capitalises in the book, the interview and the documentary.

http://gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm

A good place to start is last weeks court judgement.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on April 28, 2016, 08:01:17 AM
There are two issues, FM.

One is judicial secrecy, i.e. not divulging the contents of the investigation until they were formally made public (which he most certainly breached in the publishing process).

The other is the duty of confidentiality or "reserve". No serving PJ officer is allowed to comment on cases without official authorization (and even then it's normally the national PJ director). The issue is whether that rule still applies in retirement.

The current appeal ruling has said that it doesn't apply.

The a quo judge thought differently.

 Under the Disciplinary Regulation of the Judicial Police, the duty of confidentiality is one of the general duties of the members of the Judicial Police [cf. art 5-e of the Regulation approved by Decree-Law No. 196/94, of July 21]. ( 28 )

Alongside this general duty of confidentiality, the Organic Law of the Judicial Police requires from the civil servants working in the Judicial Police a duty of reserve, prescribing that

(...) they cannot make public disclosures related to lawsuits or matter of reserved nature other than what is provided for in this law on public information and preventive actions among the population and also the provisions of the criminal procedure law [art 12-2]. ( 29 )

Even so the statements, when admissible,
(…) are subjects to prior authorisation provided by the national director or the national deputy directors, at risk of disciplinary proceedings, maintaining the eventual criminal liability [art 12-3]. ( 30 ) The duty of reserve is a functional requirement common to magistrates and organs of criminal police. As an example, in the case of the magistrates of the Public Ministry, the ordinary law postulates that this duty will remain after retirement, establishing the article 148-7 of the Statute that retired judges must respect the reserve required by their condition.

It is a duty that is essential to the preservation of public confidence in the institutions of the administration of justice. The duty of reserve protects the purposes of the criminal action, but also the physical and moral integrity, the freedom and the dignity of those concerned by that action.
 
Page 43

The criminal investigation officers, retired for various reasons of disciplinary penalty application, retain special rights, being holders of an identification card for recognition of their quality and the rights they enjoy [paragraphs 1 and and 2 of article 149 of the Organic Law of the Judicial Police and Ordinance No. 96/2002 of 31 January].

The statute of the retirement [approved by Decree-Law 498/72 of 9 December] establishes, from its original wording in the respective artº 74, paragraph 1, that
the retired, apart from his right to a retirement pension, remains bound to the civil service, keeping the titles and the category of the position he held and the rights and duties that do not depend on being in activity.

According to the notice of the Attorney General Department's advisory Council on February 16, 2006 (Esteves Remedio, in www.ministeriopublico.pt )
the legal relationship of retirement is, compared to the legal relationship of public employment, a relationship less intense where there is a blurring of the ties between the retired and the Administration, translated in the reduction of rights and duties. There is even so a "bond to the civil service", which materialises in conserving the titles and the position of the function exercised and the rights and duties that are not dependent on activity status "(emphasis added). The same note concluded that "the retired remains subject to duties of private conduct translated in particular in the abstention of practice of facts integrators of crimes that have a relevant connection with the functions previously carried out and thus affect actually the functioning of the service or in a serious way the dignity and the prestige of the function or of the Administration (idem).

Bearing in mind that legal mosaic, how to solve the conflict in this case between the rights of the claimants Gerald and Kate McCann to their good name and reputation and the defendant Goncalo Amaral's right to his opinion as resorting to freedom of expression he's entitled to ?


It appears that the conflict should be solved with the fact data that are present from the outset and that reveal the special condition of the defendant in front of the criminal investigation, condition that he capitalises in the book, the interview and the documentary.

http://gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm

Overturned.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on April 28, 2016, 08:05:24 AM
Overturned.

Does the appeal ruling mention the breach of judicial secrecy issue? I can't find it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 28, 2016, 08:10:24 AM
Does the appeal ruling mention the breach of judicial secrecy issue? I can't find it.

If the material was already out there Carana in the media and on the internet, there was no breach.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on April 28, 2016, 08:15:08 AM
If the material was already out there Carana in the media and on the internet, there was no breach.

Amazing feat of technology then. Editing, proof-reading, photoshopping official photos as line drawings, layout, printing and distribution in 3 days...

The files weren't released on 21 July, that's just when the AG announced the archival. The files weren't released to journalists until 4 August.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 28, 2016, 09:19:44 AM
Amazing feat of technology then. Editing, proof-reading, photoshopping official photos as line drawings, layout, printing and distribution in 3 days...

The files weren't released on 21 July, that's just when the AG announced the archival. The files weren't released to journalists until 4 August.

You are still not getting it.

I wasn't referring to the 'files', I was referring to the information already out in the public arena prior to the book being released.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on April 28, 2016, 09:22:55 AM
You are still not getting it.

I wasn't referring to the 'files', I was referring to the information already out in the public arena prior to the book being released.

The information in the public domain,  didn't accuse the McCann's,  there was no evidence at all,  apart from the 100% DNA headline that came from Portugal,   where did that come from I wonder.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 28, 2016, 09:25:44 AM
The information in the public domain,  didn't accuse the McCann's,  there was no evidence at all,  apart from the 100% DNA headline that came from Portugal,   where did that come from I wonder.

Has it ever occurred to you, that people looking at the events and what the mccanns did, for example in setting up a fund so quickly, not bothering to search, etc., etc., raised more than just suspicions of what really happened in Portugal ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on April 28, 2016, 09:29:41 AM
You are still not getting it.

I wasn't referring to the 'files', I was referring to the information already out in the public arena prior to the book being released.

Oh, Ok. Like all the half-garbled leaks fluttering from PJ windows under a certain coordinator's watch?

Quite clever, really.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on April 28, 2016, 09:30:30 AM
Does the appeal ruling mention the breach of judicial secrecy issue? I can't find it.

I'll post it again then;

Nonetheless, it is understood, in the decision under appeal, that because the 1st appellant, Gonçalo Amaral, was, until October 2, 2007, the coordinator of the criminal investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, he was, after his retirement on the 1st of July, 2008, subject to the duties of secrecy and reserve that are imposed to the employees that serve the Polícia Judiciária.

And, under such terms, although the introductory note in the book invokes personal reasons, in a situation of conflict with the rights to a good name and reputation of the subjects of the appeal, the appellant [Gonçalo Amaral] could not benefit, faced with the results of the investigation, of a broad and full freedom of expression – and thus his conduct would be unlawful, under article 484 of the Civil Code.

From what was above said about this matter, it is clearly understood that such argumentation cannot be sustained.......

 it is hardly understandable that an employee, even more a retired one, would have to keep said duties of secrecy and reserve, thus being limited in the exercise of his right to an opinion, concerning the interpretation of facts that were already made public by the judiciary authority, and widely debated (in fact, largely by initiative of the intervenients themselves) in the national and international media.
http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on April 28, 2016, 09:31:59 AM
Has it ever occurred to you, that people looking at the events and what the mccanns did, for example in setting up a fund so quickly, not bothering to search, etc., etc., raised more than just suspicions of what really happened in Portugal ?

I am very aware that there are people who prefer to believe lies and myths circulating on the internet rather than reading the Police files Stephen.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 28, 2016, 09:34:49 AM
I am very aware that there are people who prefer to believe lies and myths circulating on the internet rather than reading the Police files Stephen.

Such is the 'abduction' claim.

Totally unproven and without a shred of evidence to support it.

As to leaks on the internet, the mccanns, Mitchell and  others have been doing that as well.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on April 28, 2016, 09:40:10 AM
Such is the 'abduction' claim.

Totally unproven and without a shred of evidence to support it.

As to leaks on the internet, the mccanns, Mitchell and  others have been doing that as well.

There doesn't have to be proof of an abduction,  just enough time for it to have taken place.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 28, 2016, 09:41:25 AM
There doesn't have to be proof of an abduction,  just enough time for it to have taken place.

That applies to accidental death.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on April 28, 2016, 09:48:31 AM
I'll post it again then;

Nonetheless, it is understood, in the decision under appeal, that because the 1st appellant, Gonçalo Amaral, was, until October 2, 2007, the coordinator of the criminal investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, he was, after his retirement on the 1st of July, 2008, subject to the duties of secrecy and reserve that are imposed to the employees that serve the Polícia Judiciária.

And, under such terms, although the introductory note in the book invokes personal reasons, in a situation of conflict with the rights to a good name and reputation of the subjects of the appeal, the appellant [Gonçalo Amaral] could not benefit, faced with the results of the investigation, of a broad and full freedom of expression – and thus his conduct would be unlawful, under article 484 of the Civil Code.

From what was above said about this matter, it is clearly understood that such argumentation cannot be sustained.......

 it is hardly understandable that an employee, even more a retired one, would have to keep said duties of secrecy and reserve, thus being limited in the exercise of his right to an opinion, concerning the interpretation of facts that were already made public by the judiciary authority, and widely debated (in fact, largely by initiative of the intervenients themselves) in the national and international media.
http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/


Thanks, I'd seen that. My understanding is that that concerns his apparent right to comment on a case that he was involved with once retired.

It doesn't seem to mention the issue of breaching judicial secrecy: the files hadn't been made public at the time of the publishing process and he signed his book contract back in March. Even seasoned authors would have an editor, let alone a first-time one. Who photoshopped the photos from the files? Who did the layout?

If that's considered just a minor illicit act, then ok. But it seems to have been glossed over...
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Angelo222 on April 28, 2016, 09:52:24 AM
Members have already been warned of the consequences of posting goading or sniping comments. Please take note!!
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on April 28, 2016, 10:16:44 AM

Thanks, I'd seen that. My understanding is that that concerns his apparent right to comment on a case that he was involved with once retired.

It doesn't seem to mention the issue of breaching judicial secrecy: the files hadn't been made public at the time of the publishing process and he signed his book contract back in March. Even seasoned authors would have an editor, let alone a first-time one. Who photoshopped the photos from the files? Who did the layout?

If that's considered just a minor illicit act, then ok. But it seems to have been glossed over...

It does mention secrecy. What other kind of secrecy apart from the judicial kind do you think they were referring to?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Montclair on April 28, 2016, 10:29:56 AM
It seems some people, who used their real names on the GoFundMe page when making a donation, have been doorstepped by journalists.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 28, 2016, 10:31:34 AM
It seems some people, who used their real names on the GoFundMe page when making a donation, have been doorstepped by journalists.

Doesn't that break the Data Protection Act ?
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 28, 2016, 10:33:02 AM
It seems some people, who used their real names on the GoFundMe page when making a donation, have been doorstepped by journalists.

So some more of the martin bunt kind of journalism then.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on April 28, 2016, 10:34:37 AM
The information in the public domain,  didn't accuse the McCann's,  there was no evidence at all,  apart from the 100% DNA headline that came from Portugal,   where did that come from I wonder.

Not from the PJ I imagine;

After exhausting all leads suggesting Madeleine was abducted, police are now working on the theory she suffered an accident or was killed inside the flat.
They have confirmed that the parents are not suspects. Two specialist British sniffer dogs, one with the ability to find small traces of blood and the other a "victim" dog who can detect human remains, were brought in a fortnight ago.
 Alípio Ribeiro, national director of the PJ, said that detectives were "far from throwing light on the case".
He added: "Despite the fact that new elements have appeared in the investigation we still do not know where they will lead us."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1560443/Madeleine-sniffer-dogs-detect-scent-of-body.html
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on April 28, 2016, 10:35:01 AM
It does mention secrecy. What other kind of secrecy apart from the judicial kind do you think they were referring to?

My understanding is that there are two issues associated with this concept of judicial secrecy:

One is whether a former PJ officer has the right to comment on a case that they were involved in, particularly an unresolved one, once retired. Associated with that is the right to the presumption of innocence: much of the legal mumbo-jumbo concerns the right to a fair trial once charged. However, although they never were charged, his assertions accuse them of various criminal acts - with no proof.

The other is sharing contents of the files with his publishers before the files were made available to the media. It may be considered to be a minor breach, but one nonetheless. And I can't find any specific mention of this in the appeal ruling.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on April 28, 2016, 10:58:10 AM
Not from the PJ I imagine;

After exhausting all leads suggesting Madeleine was abducted, police are now working on the theory she suffered an accident or was killed inside the flat.
They have confirmed that the parents are not suspects. Two specialist British sniffer dogs, one with the ability to find small traces of blood and the other a "victim" dog who can detect human remains, were brought in a fortnight ago.
 Alípio Ribeiro, national director of the PJ, said that detectives were "far from throwing light on the case".
He added: "Despite the fact that new elements have appeared in the investigation we still do not know where they will lead us."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1560443/Madeleine-sniffer-dogs-detect-scent-of-body.html

quote -  They have confirmed the parents are not suspects  unquote    Until Amaral misunderstands the DNA and devises his theory based on it.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on April 28, 2016, 01:47:58 PM
quote -  They have confirmed the parents are not suspects  unquote    Until Amaral misunderstands the DNA and devises his theory based on it.

It's common for police to say people aren't suspects when they are. It's called lulling them into a false sense of security. I would imagine that's even more important when dealing with people from another country who can clear off whenever they wish.

Did the calling in of the dogs create suspicion or did suspicion lead to the dogs being used? I rather think the second option, which suggests they confirmed investigator's suspicions, they didn't create them.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Lace on April 28, 2016, 01:53:10 PM
It's common for police to say people aren't suspects when they are. It's called lulling them into a false sense of security. I would imagine that's even more important when dealing with people from another country who can clear off whenever they wish.

Did the calling in of the dogs create suspicion or did suspicion lead to the dogs being used? I rather think the second option, which suggests they confirmed investigator's suspicions, they didn't create them.

I think the dogs created suspicion,  that Amaral didn't understand the forensic report and went on to establish his theory based on what he thought was correct.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: pegasus on April 28, 2016, 02:02:46 PM
It's common for police to say people aren't suspects when they are.... (snip)
Yes here is an example from a case in South London before it was solved
"Scotland Yard ... confirmed X was being quizzed as a witness not a suspect"

And from a Cambs case before it was solved.
"The officer explained to Y that he was not a suspect"

In both those cases, the "not a suspect" person has since won unlimited free all-season holiday accommodation.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 28, 2016, 07:51:20 PM
Yes here is an example from a case in South London before it was solved
"Scotland Yard ... confirmed X was being quizzed as a witness not a suspect"

And from a Cambs case before it was solved.
"The officer explained to Y that he was not a suspect"

In both those cases, the "not a suspect" person has since won unlimited free all-season holiday accommodation.


Sometimes this is masked by ' They are helping us with our enquiries'


There seems to be some sort of angst about judicial secrecy regarding Amaral.

Both sides were leaking  stories-The McCANNS were the first by involving the media immediately,traipsing all over the town interfering with possible witnesses,trying for headline grabbing news  and what they got was Sardine munchers etc...
The McCANNS also broke the law by employing an illegal PI company or three to 'investigate'.

The fact about Amaral revealing information too early is laughable really, and had NOTHING to do with hurting the family with all sorts of suffering cause by this book. Which is what the initial claim was about- they stuck that wee bit on after a failed attempt to sue him at first.

So that is more about a criminal act and not under civil law I would guess. So If you feel so enraged, and some really do, then perhaps you should bring this to the attention of the police or CPS equivalent.

 But ,anyway the supreme court are aware and have mentioned it, and didn't see fit to have him arrested and have his finger nails removed for his evilness.
Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: Carana on April 28, 2016, 09:05:04 PM
We have a thread about private investigators in PT somewhere.

I have never found anything in the legal code that stipulates that they are illegal. There are loads of PT-based ones advertising as any 2-second google search will show.

What would be illegal is using illegal means to obtain information / violating privacy and / or obstructing the course of justice.

Title: Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
Post by: G-Unit on April 28, 2016, 10:02:31 PM
We have a thread about private investigators in PT somewhere.

I have never found anything in the legal code that stipulates that they are illegal. There are loads of PT-based ones advertising as any 2-second google search will show.

What would be illegal is using illegal means to obtain information / violating privacy and / or obstructing the course of justice.

I think'obstructing the course of justice' was the problem. Interfering with a live criminal investigation would come under that heading.