Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?

[faithlilly]

LOL.  I just KNEW you’d reject this poll.

Then you were right.

[faithlilly]

And this is still true nine days later.  We had our first case of Coronavirus the same day as Spain and and day after Italy and yet their deaths per million are much, much higher than ours.  The Netherlands had their first case a month or so after us and their deaths per million are more than double ours.  The measure of the government’s effectiveness versus other European governments will be this statistic above all others, IMO.   

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Do you really think how many deaths there has been in each country is a true reflection of how the top politicians in each country have dealt with the virus ? Really ?

[faithlilly]

For anyone interested in reading an unbiased, unhysterical, non-political, non-judgemental assessment of the data (obviously that doesn’t  include Faithlilly) then this is an excellent article, and it’s not written by Matt Chorley either but an actual expert!

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/The-evidence-on-Covid-19-is-not-as-clear-as-we-think

Thank you....a very interesting article and much appreciated. It does not alter the fact however that many experts of equal standing disagree with him on several points, , experts you can’t simply dismiss as biased, hysterical, political or judgemental.

One point he did make forcibly was that no solid conclusions could be drawn from differing death rates in different countries.....so not a good indicator of political competency or good judge as you appear to think.

[Venturi Swirl]

#172.

That’s one of your posts.  Next!

[Venturi Swirl]

Then you were right.

Well I can read you like a book #justsayin

[Venturi Swirl]

Do you really think how many deaths there has been in each country is a true reflection of how the top politicians in each country have dealt with the virus ? Really ?

Yes, I think it is a good indicator of how effectively governments have responded to the crisis but do tell me why you think it isn’t. 

[Venturi Swirl]

Thank you....a very interesting article and much appreciated. It does not alter the fact however that many experts of equal standing disagree with him on several points, , experts you can’t simply dismiss as biased, hysterical, political or judgemental.

One point he did make forcibly was that no solid conclusions could be drawn from differing death rates in different countries.....so not a good indicator of political competency or good judge as you appear to think.

He may be right but at the moment it’s the best indicator we have and until there has been a worldwide effort to really drill down into the figures and understand whether or not variations are caused by the different ways in which deaths are recorded it will have to do.  Either anomalous countries like Germany are dramatically under-recording deaths by Covid or countries like ours are attributing more deaths to Covid than are strictly accurate.  Whichever way you look at it this disease is not as lethal as we were first led to believe and certainly the UK’s trajectory of the disease does not stand out as dramatically worse (in fact on balance it’s better than several others) which in turn suggests that our government has made no more of a shit show of this than govts in France, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Spain and Italy. 

As I’ve said all along,  now is not the time to pour withering scorn, contempt and hatred upon those who are working their arses off and doing their best in unchartered territories.  Of course mistakes are going to be made, these are human beings and a bit of kindness and understanding wouldn’t go amiss but it seems supplies of both are in very short demand from people like yourself who are desperate to use this crisis to push their political agenda.  I find that sickening tbh.  Thank God there was no internet during WWII, imagine the crowing leftie Tory Bashers thinking they were managing the war themselves from the sidelines every time there was a cock-up -would that have been helpful to Churchill, to have a bunch of know-it-all armchair generals harrumphing their disgust at every decision he took?

[Venturi Swirl]

Why are you so sure that you are right ? Did you see Richard Horton,  editor-in-chief of the medical journal The Lancet tear Robert Jenrick’s claims regarding PPE etc to pieces on Question Time ? Expert after expert have exposed the government’s handling of the crisis as nothing short of incompetent. Why do you think that you know better ?

This Richard Horton?

richard horton
@richardhorton1
·
24 Jan
A call for caution please. Media are escalating anxiety by talking of a “killer virus” + “growing fears”. In truth, from what we currently know, 2019-nCoV has moderate transmissibility and relatively low pathogenicity. There is no reason to foster panic with exaggerated language

Was he busy begging the government to stockpile PPE and ventilators on 24th Jan?  No, he was busy downplaying the threat.

[faithlilly]

That’s one of your posts.  Next!

Here you go.

‘I get the feeling that the more deaths there are in this country, the happier those seeking to make political capital out of this crisis will be.  They don’t want the government to do a good job managing it, they decided on Day One that they would be rubbish and have been desperately shrieking “I told you so” on a daily basis.  The time for smug recriminations is later, in the meantime we should all be on the same side, pulling together and be doing our best to minimise the blaming, the hysteria  and negativity as well as the spread of the virus.  Even Labour’s Top Brass recognise this (apart from Corbyn who simply couldn’t resist an “I told you so” himself).’

To me that certainly sounded to me that you think your opinion is correct.

So who do you think is seeking to make political capital ?

The scientists who have maligned the government’s handling of the crisis ?
The health care professionals who have constantly criticised the government for their lack of preparedness?
The nurses who have had to start a crowdfunding page just to fund vital PPE equipment for themselves ?

Who ?

[faithlilly]

Yes, I think it is a good indicator of how effectively governments have responded to the crisis but do tell me why you think it isn’t.

Then the consultant in the Spectator piece you posted last night seems to disagree.

[faithlilly]

He may be right but at the moment it’s the best indicator we have and until there has been a worldwide effort to really drill down into the figures and understand whether or not variations are caused by the different ways in which deaths are recorded it will have to do.  Either anomalous countries like Germany are dramatically under-recording deaths by Covid or countries like ours are attributing more deaths to Covid than are strictly accurate.  Whichever way you look at it this disease is not as lethal as we were first led to believe and certainly the UK’s trajectory of the disease does not stand out as dramatically worse (in fact on balance it’s better than several others) which in turn suggests that our government has made no more of a shit show of this than govts in France, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Spain and Italy. 

As I’ve said all along,  now is not the time to pour withering scorn, contempt and hatred upon those who are working their arses off and doing their best in unchartered territories.  Of course mistakes are going to be made, these are human beings and a bit of kindness and understanding wouldn’t go amiss but it seems supplies of both are in very short demand from people like yourself who are desperate to use this crisis to push their political agenda.  I find that sickening tbh.  Thank God there was no internet during WWII, imagine the crowing leftie Tory Bashers thinking they were managing the war themselves from the sidelines every time there was a cock-up -would that have been helpful to Churchill, to have a bunch of know-it-all armchair generals harrumphing their disgust at every decision he took?

I think now is exactly the time to to hold the government to account because next week, next month when their negligent decisions have cost the lives of untold Britons it’ll be too late.

[faithlilly]

This Richard Horton?

richard horton
@richardhorton1
·
24 Jan
A call for caution please. Media are escalating anxiety by talking of a “killer virus” + “growing fears”. In truth, from what we currently know, 2019-nCoV has moderate transmissibility and relatively low pathogenicity. There is no reason to foster panic with exaggerated language

Was he busy begging the government to stockpile PPE and ventilators on 24th Jan?  No, he was busy downplaying the threat.

Was this when Johnson was failing to convene a Cobra meeting or was he still on his Caribbean freebie ?

https://youtu.be/fmQD8U_vCSk

[Venturi Swirl]

Here you go.

‘I get the feeling that the more deaths there are in this country, the happier those seeking to make political capital out of this crisis will be.  They don’t want the government to do a good job managing it, they decided on Day One that they would be rubbish and have been desperately shrieking “I told you so” on a daily basis.  The time for smug recriminations is later, in the meantime we should all be on the same side, pulling together and be doing our best to minimise the blaming, the hysteria  and negativity as well as the spread of the virus.  Even Labour’s Top Brass recognise this (apart from Corbyn who simply couldn’t resist an “I told you so” himself).’

To me that certainly sounded to me that you think your opinion is correct.

So who do you think is seeking to make political capital ?

The scientists who have maligned the government’s handling of the crisis ?
The health care professionals who have constantly criticised the government for their lack of preparedness?
The nurses who have had to start a crowdfunding page just to fund vital PPE equipment for themselves ?

Who ?

You.  And all the other the know-it-all lefties on the internet.  And anyone who has (to use your word - do you actually know what it means?) maligned the government.  Constructive criticism from those in positions of authority within the NHS I don’t have a problem with, they obviously don’t want people to die, unlike those who seem to get a great deal of “I told you so” enjoyment from a mounting death toll. 

Answer me this (you won’t, you will deflect, I predict) - which outcome do you most hope for -

That government actions successfully halt the spread of the disease and the death toll falls far short of the 20000 expected, the Tories standing in the polls remains high until the next election which they win
OR
The death toll soars past the 20,000 expected and the government’s actions are widely condemned in a public inquiry which costs them the next election.

? 

[Venturi Swirl]

Then the consultant in the Spectator piece you posted last night seems to disagree.

What’s a better indicator then of government performance against other world governments?

[Venturi Swirl]

Was this when Johnson was failing to convene a Cobra meeting or was he still on his Caribbean freebie ?

https://youtu.be/fmQD8U_vCSk

Whataboutery at its finest.