Author Topic: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?  (Read 109536 times)

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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #255 on: March 31, 2020, 11:32:57 PM »
The thing with Sweden is fascinating.  They are adopting the strategy that Boris and Cummings first mooted weeks ago, the “herd immunity” thing (only they’re not calling it that but the principle is the same) and they have a centre left government.  Their strategy so far appears to have been widely supported by the Swedes and it is the far right of the political spectrum that are calling for a more draconian clampdown.  Quite the opposite here, with the loudest critics of our government’s initial less authoritarian approach coming from the far left. 

There’s no way of knowing yet how it’s going to pan out for Sweden (who have the lowest hospital bed to population ratio in the EU) but if they come out of this relatively unscathed it will certainly raise questions about whether the lockdown here was strictly necessary or if the government’s initial instincts weren’t the right ones after all. 

More here
https://unherd.com/2020/03/all-eyes-on-the-swedish-coronavirus-experiment/
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #256 on: April 01, 2020, 12:25:16 AM »
No. It’s help in a crisis. From our government, we may pay the money back at some point later. If it were socialism it would be someone else’s money.
Having read through some of the posts on this subject I find the socialists approach quite laughable.
We, in the UK have companies like McLaren, Williams and Mercedes Benz making ventilators. In the USA Trimp has ordered GM to make them, they didn’t offer. He basically told them they should do this.
I am an unemployed man with a mortgage. I despise your socialism because it has never worked, society does not move forward with socialism.

So whose else’s money would it be ?

Not sure what point you’re  ventilator remark was supposed to be making.

Capitalism has ruled the roost for the last ten years in this country and to be fair if you are an unemployed man with a mortgage it hasn’t been great to you. Your lack of forward movement is stark never mind society’s.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2020, 12:36:40 AM by Faithlilly »
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #257 on: April 01, 2020, 12:31:28 AM »
Some interesting tweets from Robert Peston tonight.


.@michaelgove said just now that the difficulty in increasing number of #COVID19 tests was due to a shortage of the relevant "chemcial reagents". Well I've just talked to the Chemical Industries Association, which represents the UK's very substantial chemicals industry. It...

has contacted its members, and they've said there is no shortage of the relevant reagents. So the Association has now been in touch with @michaelgove's office to find out what he means, because it is stumped. The Association also points out there was an industry chat with...

a business minister today, who made no attempt to find out if there was a supply problem for the vital ingredients of Covid19 testing kits. So this question of why there aren't enough tests for the virus is an even bigger mystery.  Also, if it turns out there is a shortage...

these manufacturers are more than happy to increase their production. But they need to be asked, which has not happened. PS It was Labour MP @Bill_Esterson who initially spotted this gap between what Gove said and what the industry believes to be true.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Mortis

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #258 on: April 01, 2020, 12:53:13 AM »
So whose else’s money would it be ?

Not sure what point you’re  ventilator remark was supposed to be making.

Capitalism has ruled the roost for the last ten years in this country and to be fair if you are an unemployed man with a mortgage it hasn’t been great to you. Your lack of forward movement is stark never mind society’s.
Money? Sell more gold?
Ventilators?
We have companies including Formula1 motor racing manufacturers who will make the machines, at cost. They have offered help, they will help. In the YSA no one helps, they have been told they have to help. I didn’t mention Dyson. I know you didn’t either.
Capitalism? No, it hasn’t bern great for me. I am 59, 60 within 6 months and I know for certain that I will never be able to retire. So how would socialism be better?
The minimum wage? That is actually a maximum wage, employers only need to pay £8.50 p.a. for a basic warehouse job inspite of the fact that I can speak good English and I am able to work alone or in a team.The

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #259 on: April 01, 2020, 02:10:20 AM »
Money? Sell more gold?
Ventilators?
We have companies including Formula1 motor racing manufacturers who will make the machines, at cost. They have offered help, they will help. In the YSA no one helps, they have been told they have to help. I didn’t mention Dyson. I know you didn’t either.
Capitalism? No, it hasn’t bern great for me. I am 59, 60 within 6 months and I know for certain that I will never be able to retire. So how would socialism be better?
The minimum wage? That is actually a maximum wage, employers only need to pay £8.50 p.a. for a basic warehouse job inspite of the fact that I can speak good English and I am able to work alone or in a team.The

Sell more gold. Wouldn’t it be our gold ?

Still not getting what you’re getting at re-ventilators.

Socialism ? Well for you it certainly couldn’t be any worse.

Your last point...well that’s capitalism for you.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Mortis

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #260 on: April 01, 2020, 10:06:30 AM »
I assume you remember the last time the gold was sold. Why would it be ok to just sell the gold?
The rates are low. We shouldn’t sell out.
The ventilator issue is people with millions in cash, lots of  backing and brains putting themselves forward to help in a situation.They don’t have to, they can so they do.  In The USA no one offered, they were ordered to help.
Capitalism working well, here at least.
The minimum wage was instigated and put into place by the (alleged) murder, war monger (*)
And cottaging expert, you know the one who said he was  going to rub their right wing noses in multiculturalism.
I despise that man, he was the last word in utter reprehensibility. Charles Lynton my arse, or rather not my arse

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #261 on: April 01, 2020, 11:19:34 AM »
I assume you remember the last time the gold was sold. Why would it be ok to just sell the gold?
The rates are low. We shouldn’t sell out.
The ventilator issue is people with millions in cash, lots of  backing and brains putting themselves forward to help in a situation.They don’t have to, they can so they do.  In The USA no one offered, they were ordered to help.
Capitalism working well, here at least.
The minimum wage was instigated and put into place by the (alleged) murder, war monger (*)
And cottaging expert, you know the one who said he was  going to rub their right wing noses in multiculturalism.
I despise that man, he was the last word in utter reprehensibility. Charles Lynton my arse, or rather not my arse

Damn that Labour government for not wanting you to work for a pittance !!
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #262 on: April 01, 2020, 03:52:41 PM »
A reader’s comment in today’s Times with which I wholeheartedly agree (as do dozens of other readers judging by the number of likes it has received:

“Time for a rant, brought on do doubt by self isolating. Apparently we should have taken draconian measures 5 weeks ago. However then there were just dozens of positive cases and very few deaths, this is not China, or Russia, or even South Korea or Singapore, countries where Draconian measures can be forced on people or the Goverments can be considered illiberal. If Boris Johnson had enforced the measures he did last Monday, 4 weeks earlier the population would have ignored them, and the main stream media would have crucified him and the Government for introducing “over the top” measures that would create Civil Unrest.
  The advice of the medical and scientific community was not for such measures, and the Civil Liberties groups would be demanding in the High Court that the Legislation was illegal, and may have found the Court sympathetic.
 Now let us move on to testing, Politicians have appeared to be too optimistic about the pace of testing, but they did not pick their prophecies out of thin air, they would have been given estimates they had from the Civil Service, who had received it from the health service and their purchasing staff. Ok  the buck stops with the Government but they have not tried to deliberately deceive the public, probably somebody down the line made a miscalculation or was trying to cover their ass.
  We are where we are the vast majority of people in all parts of society are doing their very best in a situation where there is no precedent. Undoubtedly there are people in Politics, the Media and even the NHS who are prioritising their own Agendas, but now is the time to pull together, not to look for scapegoats”.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2020, 06:45:54 PM by Vertigo Swirl »
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #263 on: April 01, 2020, 06:45:09 PM »
It would appear that the same criticisms being laid at the government’s door here, are being laid at the door of Macron and his government in France.  In fact I doubt there is a country anywhere in the world where the government hasn’t come in for criticism of its handling of the crisis (except for those countries where criticism of the state is outlawed).
It’s natural to want to apportion blame but it’s also understandable when governments don’t do everything exactly right in a fast-moving crisis of such huge proportions.  More understanding and cooperation and less point-scoring and conspiracy theorising is needed from everyone to help us get through this, imo.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/coronavirus-conspiracies-france-riven-with-fear-and-distrust-as-the-virus-death-toll-soars-mx9fswws3
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #264 on: April 02, 2020, 01:08:37 AM »
As a Conservative government when the Telegraph start asking questions you know that you are in trouble.

Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #265 on: April 02, 2020, 11:52:08 AM »
Who’d have thought that we’d have to leave it to Piers Morgan of all people that hold the government’s feet to the fire.

 https://youtu.be/JLrMfhSCZio
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #266 on: April 03, 2020, 07:40:47 AM »
The testing issue has become the main weapon in the arsenal of those with a political agenda to try and bring down the government IMO.  I really don’t see the point in mass testing to see if you have the virus now because you could test negative today, doesn’t mean you won’t have caught it by tomorrow.  The anti-gen test is far more useful but reliable tests in large quantity simply don’t seem to exist. 

Is bringing down the government, fostering unrest and rebellion at a time of such a crisis really a very good idea?

Coronavirus: Row over testing could distract from real fight, says Calderwood
Scotland's chief medical officer said mass testing only stopped the spread of coronavirus at early stages
Scotland's chief medical officer said mass testing only stopped the spread of coronavirus at early stages
JEFF J MITCHELL//PA
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Scotland’s chief medical officer has said that relentless public focus on testing people for coronavirus risks becoming a “distraction” because it will not substantially halt the spread.

Catherine Calderwood said it was “a fallacy” that mass testing with current kit would halt the epidemic. She echoed the views of Jonathan Van-Tam, the English deputy chief medical officer, who said that testing was a “side issue”.

Governments on both sides of the border have been criticised for the low level of testing on NHS staff.

There was confusion in Scotland yesterday as confirmed deaths rocketed from 76 to 126, but this was put down to late reporting due to difficulties contacting families, forcing a rethink about the way the Scottish government reports figures in future.

Dr Calderwood has urged the public to pay little heed to the political infighting over testing, saying she had been warning “for several weeks now about the distraction that the focus on testing may become”.


At a briefing in Edinburgh she said: “The testing is extremely useful, but it is only going to be positive for a short window of 48 to 72 hours while somebody has symptoms, because there need to be a certain amount of virus in that person for that to be effective.”
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #267 on: April 03, 2020, 12:44:43 PM »
From Stephen Bush political editor of the New Statesman.


The reason why tests matter so much - and why the United Kingdom's lagging testing capacity is so important - is that in the immediate short-term, the prevent hospitals becoming vectors of contagion. Without adequate testing, asymptomatic patients and hospital staff will be infecting other patients and staff - with deadly consequences for staff and patients, and with the potential to overload the NHS' capacity.

Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #268 on: April 03, 2020, 03:41:56 PM »
It’s these twerps that are adding fuel to the fire and to whom little wannabe know-it-all internet experts look up to with their constant harping on:

We don’t need ‘gotcha’ journalism now
The media carrying on as normal during a health crisis is less public service, more public nuisance
BY DOUGLAS MURRAY

Robert Peston. Credit: Alex Broadway/Getty
Douglas Murray
Douglas Murray is a best-selling author and award-winning journalist based in London.
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April 3, 2020

DouglasKMurray

April 3, 2020
Filed under:
Debate   Cathy NewmanCoronavirusCOVID-19JournalismMedia biasRobert Peston
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We live in the age of the omniscient anchor. Not that the news-frontmen and women are really omniscient, of course, but in Britain and (even more so) in America there is a type of presenter who is held up — and certainly held themselves up — as though the world and everything in it was really rather simple. All answers had one source — and that source is them.

Blessed with the power to dilate at length on the solutions to all problems, when they bother to ask a question you can tell by the narrowing of the eyes that they already knew the answer and are only asking the in the hope that the interrogee does not.

How blessed we were to have such beings. And how much the current crisis has exposed them.

Take Cathy Newman. During the present crisis the Channel 4 anchor has continued to try her usual journalistic schtick in a situation with no appetite for it. Seeking to remain rude as well as relevant, she tweeted following a Downing Street press conference in the middle of last month that “Today all the talk from the amigos is about ramping up testing.”

I suppose it is fine to use a derogatory and demeaning name for the Prime Minister if you really must, but why deride the country’s two leading experts on the virus in the same way?

What had these medical experts done that allowed Newman to dismiss them in such a silly and inaccurate manner? And weren’t people like Newman precisely the sort who spent recent years pretending that Michael Gove once said that this country had “had enough of experts” and that this unfinished sentence was the vital lens through which one might understand the ignorance and absurdity of the masses. I digress — as did Newman, who went on: “A few days ago it was all about limiting it to those already ill. Big change.”

Of course, what Newman was doing here is what a large number of journalists – most prominently Piers Morgan – have been trying to do since the corona pandemic began, which is to continue playing the same games that the media has become obsessed with in recent years.

Political games of their own invention. Not just ‘gotcha’ journalism, but a journalism which has invented a set of tropes to keep any story running for as long as possible. Among the most popular is the ‘U-turn’. It is impossible to chart precisely when the U-turn became such a common journalistic device, or when this morally-neutral action became a synonym for something disgraceful.

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As all drivers will know, a U-turn is in fact a handy little manoeuvre. When driving down a road at the end of which you see a wall there are a couple of options before you. One might (a) continue driving towards the wall, proud that you have not altered your initial principles or compromised yourself in any way, or (b) One might perform a U-turn and continue on with the day.

So it is with governments. If, in the midst of an unprecedented public health crisis the government decides — based on the latest expert advice — that it should change its thinking, then this is not necessarily some great scandal, even if some redundant parts of the media continue to shout ‘Gotcha!’ as they spot the ‘U-turn’.

Others continue to pretend that there is no situation so complex that they cannot land on the nub of the matter in super-quick time. Of all the people left exposed for having played this game none has been shown up so badly as Robert Peston.

Ordinarily Peston is to be found on ITV, presenting a show whose viewers are generally treated to some second or third-rate figure like Emily Thornberry attempting to demonstrate why they should be Prime Minister. It is unwatchable stuff, even for political obsessives.

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Well-remunerated though the job may be, however, there is a price to pay for fronting these programmes. One is the feeling that since you are up there you must be up there for a reason, and that although you don’t always feel like you know much you must do — or you wouldn’t be up there, would you?

I know a journalist who was once introduced by accident as an ‘aviation expert’ on a programme and had that momentary flicker “Well if I’m being introduced as an aviation expert then I must in fact be an aviation expert.”

Since the beginning of this crisis Peston has been attempting, less successfully than Piers Morgan it must be said, to show himself to be the one who still knows the crucial questions to ask. No area of oversight or ignorance can ever be conceded or otherwise admitted to. Why does Britain do less testing than Germany? Why does [insert country name] have better provisions than [insert other country name]? On and on it goes, not to get to any truth but to play the old game that journalists of Peston’s generation and ilk have been playing for years.

Deprived of any story that would allow them to be Bernstein and Woodward, they had to make do instead with showing that they knew more than, say, Chris Grayling and could by constant interruption expose such a person as not being sufficiently on top of their brief.

What is so beautiful about Peston’s interview this week with Deputy Chief Medical Officer Jonathan Van Tam is that even when he is shown up Peston cannot shut up. Because his primary goal is to ensure that he does not come out of it looking bad, or as though he doesn’t know what he is talking about.  Each time he opens his mouth it is clear once again that he is trying to ‘gotcha’ the Deputy Chief Medical Officer based on information that he, Peston, has clearly crammed up on only minutes earlier.

Even now, after the interview has gone viral, Peston is trying to mop up on social media in a way that is positively Newman-esque — by pretending that he is a victim. “I was slightly taken aback at the ferocity of the Deputy Chief Medical Officer’s response,” he declared.

People can judge for themselves whether van Tam was ferocious or just calm and patient, but the ego will not let it go, and so he continued: “Just to be clear, I do understand the difference between an antibody and an antigen test. What I wanted to gauge was whether this rapid antibody test could help solve the problem of insufficient PCR (antigen) testing capacity. This was not an unreasonable line of inquiry, in…”

And on he went.

It is tempting to say that this is an unprecedented situation and so the media is doing the best it can — but that isn’t the case. Instead the same style of journalism has been on display and been revealed to be vapid.

After the killing of Qassem Soleimani in January there was a noisy if less virulent outbreak of the same problem. Presenters and pundits who had barely if ever heard of the Iranian general filled the airwaves with their golden insights.

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“Was this a Franz Ferdinand moment?” was the sort of ‘clever’ question they asked repeatedly. No it clearly wasn’t, but the charade carried on regardless, with the presumption that nobody would remember next week, and besides which, something else would come along soon.

As indeed it has.

Of course there is, and must be, a place in every society for people asking awkward questions. But asking awkward, difficult questions is a different thing from asking the wrong questions, or asking questions which are ill-informed. And perhaps, during an epidemic unprecedented in our lifetimes, and in which very difficult decisions must be made based on highly complex scientific calculations, that kind of gotcha journalism is no longer a public service but a public nuisance.

Journalism is at a difficult enough juncture, and there are many people in the trade who know a great deal. But the whole profession would be enormously helped if its most prominent representatives stopped giving off the impression of thinking that the primary problem with real experts is that they don’t listen to journalists enough.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #269 on: April 03, 2020, 04:13:38 PM »
Another of Mr Murray’s opinions.

‘Conditions for Muslims in Europe must be made harder across the board: Europe must look like a less attractive proposition... From long before we were first attacked it should have been made plain that people who come into Europe are here under our rules and not theirs … Where a mosque has become a centre of hate it should be closed and pulled down. If that means that some Muslims don't have a mosque to go to, then they'll just have to realise that they aren't owed one.[61][62][63]’

Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?