Myths revealed in the Madeleine McCann case

[gilet]

We know from the statements given by the others that when Kate arrived back at the tapas bar at 10pm she uttered the words, "She's gone Gerry, Madeleine's gone".

The full text of the interview conducted by DC 1485 MESSIAH with Fiona Payne as follows...

1485
'And what did she say when she came back''
 
Reply
' 'She's gone Gerry, Madeleine's gone', I'm hundred per cent about that'.
 
 
1485
'And we've discussed how she looked, she looked shocked and'.
 
Reply
'She was just frantic'.
 
 
1485
'Frantic. Were you shocked by her words''
 
Reply
'Absolutely, I mean I didn't, it was so sort of out of context of the evening and the holiday, initially it was, it, I mean it was just pure, you know, the words sinking in, the shock, the horror of what, what that might mean and I know those are her first words, I know there's been a lot of reported since about people saying, you know, they've taken her and she did say those things but they were, you know, later as far as I'm aware, I didn't hear anything suggesting anyone had taken her at that point and initially, you know, the, the hope and the automatic response was really that, that she had wandered away, erm, you know, I, pretty soon after, I was hearing the words, you know, they've taken her and that the window was open, the shutter was open, erm, and all that that implied, but those weren't her first words and her first implication wasn't that'.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

 
Could "She's gone Gerry, Madeleine's gone"  mean she had died ?
 
Why would Kate have gone back to the tapas bar to tell Gerry that when surely a frantic parent would have yelled and screamed at the top of their voice ?....

People do the oddest things when in a state of panic.

[John]

I have seen claimed that Madeleine's toothbrush disappeared and that this was yet another conspiracy to defeat the ends of justice by denying investigators a source of material containing DNA.

Can I have your views on this please?

[debunker]

I have seen claimed that Madeleine's toothbrush disappeared and that this was yet another conspiracy to defeat the ends of justice by denying investigators a source of material containing DNA.

Can I have your views on this please?

McCann files site has no reference to toothbrush.

FRom memory the problem was that the children shared toiletry items and it could not be assured that Amelie and Sean's DNA  was not there.

[gilet]

I have seen claimed that Madeleine's toothbrush disappeared and that this was yet another conspiracy to defeat the ends of justice by denying investigators a source of material containing DNA.

Can I have your views on this please?

I have not seen any reference to this toothbrush in the files. I may be wrong because the documents are extremely lengthy but it is my opinion that this has probably come from one of the myriad false news reports from mid 2007.

If anyone can quote a source for the claim I would be grateful.

[debunker]

Probably an Anti myth

[John]

There was a blatant malicious claim that the McCanns disposed of Madeleine's toothbrush for whatever reason so we have to find the source for this and if false discredit it.

[icabodcrane]

There was a blatant malicious claim that the McCanns disposed of Madeleine's toothbrush for whatever reason so we have to find the source for this and if false discredit it.

I don't remember reading anything about a toothbrush,  but I do recall reading somewhere that Gerry McCann went back to Rothley to collect a pillow case of Madeleine's  (  in order to provide dna )

...  that must be a myth, surely ? 

I mean how could there be no dna from a child who had been in that apartment for almost a week  ?   

[gilet]

There was a blatant malicious claim that the McCanns disposed of Madeleine's toothbrush for whatever reason so we have to find the source for this and if false discredit it.

I don't remember reading anything about a toothbrush,  but I do recall reading somewhere that Gerry McCann went back to Rothley to collect a pillow case of Madeleine's  (  in order to provide dna )

...  that must be a myth, surely ? 

I mean how could there be no dna from a child who had been in that apartment for almost a week  ?

There almost certainly was DNA from Madeleine in the apartment. However what was required was a reference sample which could be shown not to be contaminated in any way by other family members DNA.  If for example one of the others had lain on the bed with her for a story perhaps the pillowcase in PDL would not suffice or maybe one of the twins had accidentally used her toothbrush. It isn't always easy especially in a strange environment to ensure that toddlers use the correct one.

[icabodcrane]

There was a blatant malicious claim that the McCanns disposed of Madeleine's toothbrush for whatever reason so we have to find the source for this and if false discredit it.

I don't remember reading anything about a toothbrush,  but I do recall reading somewhere that Gerry McCann went back to Rothley to collect a pillow case of Madeleine's  (  in order to provide dna )

...  that must be a myth, surely ? 

I mean how could there be no dna from a child who had been in that apartment for almost a week  ?

There almost certainly was DNA from Madeleine in the apartment. However what was required was a reference sample which could be shown not to be contaminated in any way by other family members DNA.  If for example one of the others had lain on the bed with her for a story perhaps the pillowcase in PDL would not suffice or maybe one of the twins had accidentally used her toothbrush. It isn't always easy especially in a strange environment to ensure that toddlers use the correct one.

So Gerry McCann  did  go back to Leicester to collect a pillow case ?   (  an  'uncontaminated' one ) 

Unlike you,  I don't  find that to be of little significance   ...  I find it quite remarkable that there was  nothing in that apartment that was unique to Madeleine

What about her worn clothes  for instance ...  they weren't shared were they ?  ...  or the bobble that was in her hair in that last photo  (  there are always a few hairs left on a bobble ) 

[gilet]

There was a blatant malicious claim that the McCanns disposed of Madeleine's toothbrush for whatever reason so we have to find the source for this and if false discredit it.

I don't remember reading anything about a toothbrush,  but I do recall reading somewhere that Gerry McCann went back to Rothley to collect a pillow case of Madeleine's  (  in order to provide dna )

...  that must be a myth, surely ? 

I mean how could there be no dna from a child who had been in that apartment for almost a week  ?

There almost certainly was DNA from Madeleine in the apartment. However what was required was a reference sample which could be shown not to be contaminated in any way by other family members DNA.  If for example one of the others had lain on the bed with her for a story perhaps the pillowcase in PDL would not suffice or maybe one of the twins had accidentally used her toothbrush. It isn't always easy especially in a strange environment to ensure that toddlers use the correct one.

So Gerry McCann  did  go back to Leicester to collect a pillow case ?   (  an  'uncontaminated' one ) 

Unlike you,  I don't  find that to be of little significance   ...  I find it quite remarkable that there was  nothing in that apartment that was unique to Madeleine

What about her worn clothes  for instance ...  they weren't shared were they ?  ...  or the bobble that was in her hair in that last photo  (  there are always a few hairs left on a bobble )

Sorry where did I suggest that I found it of little significance? I think you are making a presumption about my post there and not sticking to the content.

I cannot comment on why nothing in the apartment was used as I simply do not know. There is nothing in the files that I have seen to suggest a reason why the PJ resorted to having Gerry McCann collect a sample for them from Rothley. To be honest it smacks of complete incompetence on their part to me. I simply cannot imagine any situation where any UK police force would resort to such a strange measure.

[icabodcrane]

There was a blatant malicious claim that the McCanns disposed of Madeleine's toothbrush for whatever reason so we have to find the source for this and if false discredit it.

I don't remember reading anything about a toothbrush,  but I do recall reading somewhere that Gerry McCann went back to Rothley to collect a pillow case of Madeleine's  (  in order to provide dna )

...  that must be a myth, surely ? 

I mean how could there be no dna from a child who had been in that apartment for almost a week  ?

There almost certainly was DNA from Madeleine in the apartment. However what was required was a reference sample which could be shown not to be contaminated in any way by other family members DNA.  If for example one of the others had lain on the bed with her for a story perhaps the pillowcase in PDL would not suffice or maybe one of the twins had accidentally used her toothbrush. It isn't always easy especially in a strange environment to ensure that toddlers use the correct one.

So Gerry McCann  did  go back to Leicester to collect a pillow case ?   (  an  'uncontaminated' one ) 

Unlike you,  I don't  find that to be of little significance   ...  I find it quite remarkable that there was  nothing in that apartment that was unique to Madeleine

What about her worn clothes  for instance ...  they weren't shared were they ?  ...  or the bobble that was in her hair in that last photo  (  there are always a few hairs left on a bobble )

Sorry where did I suggest that I found it of little significance? I think you are making a presumption about my post there and not sticking to the content.

I cannot comment on why nothing in the apartment was used as I simply do not know. There is nothing in the files that I have seen to suggest a reason why the PJ resorted to having Gerry McCann collect a sample for them from Rothley. To be honest it smacks of complete incompetence on their part to me. I simply cannot imagine any situation where any UK police force would resort to such a strange measure.

Perhaps you are being a bit presumptuos yourself when you suggest the lack of dna belonging to Madeleine being in the apartment was a reflection on the  'complete incompetence'  of the police

It may be the case that dna  specific and unique to Madeleine wasn't available because her clothes had been washed shortly after her disappearance for some reason

[gilet]

There was a blatant malicious claim that the McCanns disposed of Madeleine's toothbrush for whatever reason so we have to find the source for this and if false discredit it.

I don't remember reading anything about a toothbrush,  but I do recall reading somewhere that Gerry McCann went back to Rothley to collect a pillow case of Madeleine's  (  in order to provide dna )

...  that must be a myth, surely ? 

I mean how could there be no dna from a child who had been in that apartment for almost a week  ?

There almost certainly was DNA from Madeleine in the apartment. However what was required was a reference sample which could be shown not to be contaminated in any way by other family members DNA.  If for example one of the others had lain on the bed with her for a story perhaps the pillowcase in PDL would not suffice or maybe one of the twins had accidentally used her toothbrush. It isn't always easy especially in a strange environment to ensure that toddlers use the correct one.

So Gerry McCann  did  go back to Leicester to collect a pillow case ?   (  an  'uncontaminated' one ) 

Unlike you,  I don't  find that to be of little significance   ...  I find it quite remarkable that there was  nothing in that apartment that was unique to Madeleine

What about her worn clothes  for instance ...  they weren't shared were they ?  ...  or the bobble that was in her hair in that last photo  (  there are always a few hairs left on a bobble )

Sorry where did I suggest that I found it of little significance? I think you are making a presumption about my post there and not sticking to the content.

I cannot comment on why nothing in the apartment was used as I simply do not know. There is nothing in the files that I have seen to suggest a reason why the PJ resorted to having Gerry McCann collect a sample for them from Rothley. To be honest it smacks of complete incompetence on their part to me. I simply cannot imagine any situation where any UK police force would resort to such a strange measure.

Perhaps you are being a bit presumptuos yourself when you suggest the lack of dna belonging to Madeleine being in the apartment was a reflection on the  'complete incompetence'  of the police

It may be the case that dna  specific and unique to Madeleine wasn't available because her clothes had been washed shortly after her disappearance for some reason

My comment does not relate simply to the absence of potential reference DNA and is not in any way as presumptuous as you suggest when read as a whole.  I state clearly that I am not commenting on the lack of such potential reference material because I do not know why there was none and I prefer to rely on facts rather than guesswork such as your stab at the washing idea.

The main thrust of the comment which you have completely ignored is that the incompetence shown by the PJ in having the father of a missing child who they clearly suspected of involvement in the disappearance the to go to Rothley to collect samples on their behalf. I do not believe any UK force would have done that. They would have used local police to handle the job.

[icabodcrane]

There was a blatant malicious claim that the McCanns disposed of Madeleine's toothbrush for whatever reason so we have to find the source for this and if false discredit it.

I don't remember reading anything about a toothbrush,  but I do recall reading somewhere that Gerry McCann went back to Rothley to collect a pillow case of Madeleine's  (  in order to provide dna )

...  that must be a myth, surely ? 

I mean how could there be no dna from a child who had been in that apartment for almost a week  ?

There almost certainly was DNA from Madeleine in the apartment. However what was required was a reference sample which could be shown not to be contaminated in any way by other family members DNA.  If for example one of the others had lain on the bed with her for a story perhaps the pillowcase in PDL would not suffice or maybe one of the twins had accidentally used her toothbrush. It isn't always easy especially in a strange environment to ensure that toddlers use the correct one.

So Gerry McCann  did  go back to Leicester to collect a pillow case ?   (  an  'uncontaminated' one ) 

Unlike you,  I don't  find that to be of little significance   ...  I find it quite remarkable that there was  nothing in that apartment that was unique to Madeleine

What about her worn clothes  for instance ...  they weren't shared were they ?  ...  or the bobble that was in her hair in that last photo  (  there are always a few hairs left on a bobble )

Sorry where did I suggest that I found it of little significance? I think you are making a presumption about my post there and not sticking to the content.

I cannot comment on why nothing in the apartment was used as I simply do not know. There is nothing in the files that I have seen to suggest a reason why the PJ resorted to having Gerry McCann collect a sample for them from Rothley. To be honest it smacks of complete incompetence on their part to me. I simply cannot imagine any situation where any UK police force would resort to such a strange measure.

Perhaps you are being a bit presumptuos yourself when you suggest the lack of dna belonging to Madeleine being in the apartment was a reflection on the  'complete incompetence'  of the police

It may be the case that dna  specific and unique to Madeleine wasn't available because her clothes had been washed shortly after her disappearance for some reason

My comment does not relate simply to the absence of potential reference DNA and is not in any way as presumptuous as you suggest when read as a whole.  I state clearly that I am not commenting on the lack of such potential reference material because I do not know why there was none and I prefer to rely on facts rather than guesswork such as your stab at the washing idea.

The main thrust of the comment which you have completely ignored is that the incompetence shown by the PJ in having the father of a missing child who they clearly suspected of involvement in the disappearance the to go to Rothley to collect samples on their behalf. I do not believe any UK force would have done that. They would have used local police to handle the job.

When did Gerry make the trip to Rothley to collect the pillow case  ...  do you know  ?

If it was before the UK's top criminal profiler,  Lee Rainbow,  had made his report,  then it would be the case that the McCanns were not  'suspect'   at that time

Lee Rainbow expressed concerns about the inconsistancies in Gerry McCann's statments and suggested the parents involvement  (  in a homicide )  should be investigated with the same vigour as the abductor theory had been investigated up to that point

The implication being, that until the top British criminal profiler suggested otherwise,  the McCanns had not been treated as  suspects at all

[Eleanor]

I have seen claimed that Madeleine's toothbrush disappeared and that this was yet another conspiracy to defeat the ends of justice by denying investigators a source of material containing DNA.

Can I have your views on this please?

I don't know what happened to Madeleine's toothbrush, if in fact she had one with her.  It has only ever been discussed on Forums.
The important point was that any of Madeleine's DNA found in the appartment could likely have been contaminated by other members of the family, or even toothpaste.  Try getting DNA around toothpaste.

This is why Gerry went back to UK to get Madeleine's pillow case which only she will have slept on, or at least this is probable.  Gerry had a policeman with him at that time.

The supposed lack of a toothbrush pertaining only to Madeleine was just another stick with which to beat The McCanns, so they must be dirty people.  No one has ever know how many toothbrushes The McCanns took with them.

[gilet]

Gerry McCann was in Rothley on 21 May 2007. On that evening he added his own yellow ribbon to the ones in the square in the village.

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/around-yorkshire/local-stories/emotional_return_as_maddy_s_father_adds_his_ribbon_to_sea_of_yellow_1_2456130

To add to the Amaral information regarding the doubts being cast on the McCanns by the PJ as early as 4th May, there is a news report from Diario de Noticias on 5th May 2007 which states inter alia:

"The disappearance of Madeleine McCann, the English three-year-old child that was on holidays in Lagos, "is a very badly told story", a source from the Polícia Judiciária in Portimão has confided to DN. The statement reflects the authorities' doubts concerning the "confused" depositions that were given by the witnesses yesterday, throughout the day."