UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: John on September 22, 2012, 08:59:38 PM
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Someone raised an interesting point today as to how many doors there were into the farmhouse. I can find several as shown below. Could one of them be the access to the staircase which goes up to the first floor office?
(http://i.imgur.com/tEeAR.jpg)
Front door - East aspect.
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(http://i.imgur.com/Fxlfn.jpg)
Rear doors - South aspect
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(http://i.imgur.com/Vu0jt.jpg)
Rear doors - North aspect
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Here is another shot of the rear door from the north aspect.
(http://i.imgur.com/SPKaq.jpg)
and again...
(http://i.imgur.com/y4A4R.jpg)
This photo actually shows 3 doors, can anyone confirm this?
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I make that 7 external doors in total which is incredible. What do you think?
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I make that 7 external doors in total which is incredible. What do you think?
I think you may have been referring to my post about doors in the White House Farm plans thread.
According to Wilkes there was a vestibule just inside the Back Door to the Back Kitchen, and I think the stair to the upper office (the one in the photo of Nevill's den with the straight flight and winders at the bottom) led off from it.
I tried to post a rough plan of it that I did a day or so ago but it wouldn't upload... is there a limit on the jpg size you can upload?
See the combined photo below in relation to your latest question...,
The Coal Shed has two entrances i.e. blue doors on opposite sides of the house, and is sealed off from the main building.
In the last photo (3) I may be wrong but looking at the plan the blue door could be sealed off altogether from the house.
Why do you think there are three doors here?..... I see only the one blue door, with an opening (window perhaps) of some sort on the left and a white timber post supporting the open porch roof above.
I think there were only two entrances to the house, i.e. the Front Door (into the main hall) and the Back Door (into the back kitchen).
I'll give it a bit more thought and post again when I've more time.
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Thank you for taking the time to look at this Myster. What I think brought this question to the surface was the mystery as to where the stairs to the 1st floor office originated? You know the ones which can just be seen in the cubby hole in the downstairs office.
Do you think theses stairs are accessed by an external door on the north side of the house?
If you use imgur.com you can attach any jpeg irrespective of file size.
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Though there may well be seven external doors I think it was established that none of them had been used for anyone to enter the property that night, with the front door bolted shut from the inside (though did this apply to all external doors as well?). This was I suppose another pointer to show that whoever committed the crime must have been still inside the house and an important part of Bamber's alibi (until it was pointed out that he knew a way of getting in and out through the downstairs toilet window, and he even admitted using this method to get some documents from WHF not long after the murders).
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Though there may well be seven external doors I think it was established that none of them had been used for anyone to enter the property that night, with the front door bolted shut from the inside (though did this apply to all external doors as well?). This was I suppose another pointer to show that whoever committed the crime must have been still inside the house and an important part of Bamber's alibi (until it was pointed out that he knew a way of getting in and out through the downstairs toilet window, and he even admitted using this method to get some documents from WHF not long after the murders).
I agree goatboy. He might have been better faking a break in rather than attempting to put the blame at Sheila's door. (Sorry about that). All that nonsense about a hit man running about the house after the police were on site is also utter crap. The police had the house surrounded from the start so anyone inside could not have escaped undetected.
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Though there may well be seven external doors I think it was established that none of them had been used for anyone to enter the property that night, with the front door bolted shut from the inside (though did this apply to all external doors as well?). This was I suppose another pointer to show that whoever committed the crime must have been still inside the house and an important part of Bamber's alibi (until it was pointed out that he knew a way of getting in and out through the downstairs toilet window, and he even admitted using this method to get some documents from WHF not long after the murders).
I agree goatboy. He might have been better faking a break in rather than attempting to put the blame at Sheila's door. (Sorry about that). All that nonsense about a hit man running about the house after the police were on site is also utter crap. The police had the house surrounded from the start so anyone inside could not have escaped undetected.
Jeremy hated Sheila and was extremely jealous of her and her flat in London while he had to sit on a tractor every day and be bossed around by Neville and sometimes the Boutflours. Jeremy always wanted more and that was his undoing in the end. When the twins came along he saw his inheritance dwindling the older they got. He was suspicious that Nev and June had changed part of their wills in favour of Sheila and he was right. When it was muted that Sheila and the boys come to stay long term that was it.....Jeremy had had enough. It was time for action.
He had an opportunity to kill them all on a previous occasion but he bottled out at the last minute. It was now or never he told Mugford and he was right.
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I couldnīt imagine one person standing outside that house in the middle of the night, then entering through a window knowing you were going to kill FIVE people. Daunting - verging on impossible.
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I couldnīt imagine one person standing outside that house in the middle of the night, then entering through a window knowing you were going to kill FIVE people. Daunting - verging on impossible.
hello abs. Maybe daunting but never impossible. It takes a certain type of psychopath to do what he did but do it he did. He knew the place inside out abs and he thought he knew Julie Mugford. He was sorely mistaken. Had it not been for Julies crucial testimony he would have got away with it.
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I couldnīt imagine one person standing outside that house in the middle of the night, then entering through a window knowing you were going to kill FIVE people. Daunting - verging on impossible.
hello abs. Maybe daunting but never impossible. It takes a certain type of psychopath to do what he did but do it he did. He knew the place inside out abs and he thought he knew Julie Mugford. He was sorely mistaken. Had it not been for Julies crucial testimony he would have got away with it.
That's true Mark but Bamber was suspected by both the police and all the remaining relatives before Julie came forward. Julie coming forward just confirmed the suspicions of many!
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In my mind it seems close to impossible. Three grown ups and two children - it seems a LOT, so much could go wrong.
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I couldnīt imagine one person standing outside that house in the middle of the night, then entering through a window knowing you were going to kill FIVE people. Daunting - verging on impossible.
hello abs. Maybe daunting but never impossible. It takes a certain type of psychopath to do what he did but do it he did. He knew the place inside out abs and he thought he knew Julie Mugford. He was sorely mistaken. Had it not been for Julies crucial testimony he would have got away with it.
That's true Mark but Bamber was suspected by both the police and all the remaining relatives before Julie came forward. Julie coming forward just confirmed the suspicions of many!
Very true but they would never have been able to convince a jury without julies say so. She laid it out for them. The pre planning that had gone on for months. The fake burglary and robbery at the caravan park. The tranquillisers she got for him. The lie about why the ladies bicycle was at his house in Goldhanger. The make up and the pretence at the funeral. I could go on and on.
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In my mind it seems close to impossible. Three grown ups and two children - it seems a LOT, so much could go wrong.
But abs So much did go wrong it was far from the perfect crime. The rifle was under powered. Nev was able to fight back and nearly got to the kitchen phone. One shot didn't kill sheila as it missed her brain. He lost a glove in the struggle and had to clean up after him. There is lots more but you get the picture?
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In my mind it seems close to impossible. Three grown ups and two children - it seems a LOT, so much could go wrong.
Bamber was a regular cannabis smoker... the two main side effects, relaxation and euphoria may have given him enough bravado to carry it out.
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In my mind it seems close to impossible. Three grown ups and two children - it seems a LOT, so much could go wrong.
Bamber was a regular cannabis smoker... the two main side effects, relaxation and euphoria may have given him enough bravado to carry it out.
That's a good point. Was he on something that night? Anne Eaton says in her statement that his pupils were dilated.
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In my mind it seems close to impossible. Three grown ups and two children - it seems a LOT, so much could go wrong.
Bamber was a regular cannabis smoker... the two main side effects, relaxation and euphoria may have given him enough bravado to carry it out.
That's a good point. Was he on something that night? Anne Eaton says in her statement that his pupils were dilated.
I don't know as it's only guesswork on my part.... after spending all day on his tractor, he may have used it to wind down.
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In my mind it seems close to impossible. Three grown ups and two children - it seems a LOT, so much could go wrong.
But abs So much did go wrong it was far from the perfect crime. The rifle was under powered. Nev was able to fight back and nearly got to the kitchen phone. One shot didn't kill sheila as it missed her brain. He lost a glove in the struggle and had to clean up after him. There is lots more but you get the picture?
I get the picture, sure - this would have taken time. Where was Sheila during all this time? Just quietly waiting in line to get killed?
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In my mind it seems close to impossible. Three grown ups and two children - it seems a LOT, so much could go wrong.
But abs So much did go wrong it was far from the perfect crime. The rifle was under powered. Nev was able to fight back and nearly got to the kitchen phone. One shot didn't kill sheila as it missed her brain. He lost a glove in the struggle and had to clean up after him. There is lots more but you get the picture?
I get the picture, sure - this would have taken time. Where was Sheila during all this time? Just quietly waiting in line to get killed?
Hallo, abs. I still wonder if Sheila had taken strong painkillers, I'm not sure if toxicology tested for these. She had an IUD and, in those days at least, they could cause heavy and painful periods. She had obviously bled heavily enough to have to soak some clothing in a bucket. It's possible that she took strong painkillers to help her sleep (is that why her handbag had been emptied on the bed?) and that was why she was drowsy and compliant when JB (or whoever) pulled her out of bed and into her parents' room.
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In my mind it seems close to impossible. Three grown ups and two children - it seems a LOT, so much could go wrong.
But abs So much did go wrong it was far from the perfect crime. The rifle was under powered. Nev was able to fight back and nearly got to the kitchen phone. One shot didn't kill sheila as it missed her brain. He lost a glove in the struggle and had to clean up after him. There is lots more but you get the picture?
I get the picture, sure - this would have taken time. Where was Sheila during all this time? Just quietly waiting in line to get killed?
Probably waiting patiently in her room while hero Jeremy chased away the intruder except there wasn't an intruder. The rest is history. Sheila probably never knew that Nevill and the twins were also dead but she probably saw June.
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I hope to God, Sheila didn't know her babies were dead, I can't imagine what if, if she did. That would be too awful.
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In my mind it seems close to impossible. Three grown ups and two children - it seems a LOT, so much could go wrong.
But abs So much did go wrong it was far from the perfect crime. The rifle was under powered. Nev was able to fight back and nearly got to the kitchen phone. One shot didn't kill sheila as it missed her brain. He lost a glove in the struggle and had to clean up after him. There is lots more but you get the picture?
I get the picture, sure - this would have taken time. Where was Sheila during all this time? Just quietly waiting in line to get killed?
Hallo, abs. I still wonder if Sheila had taken strong painkillers, I'm not sure if toxicology tested for these. She had an IUD and, in those days at least, they could cause heavy and painful periods. She had obviously bled heavily enough to have to soak some clothing in a bucket. It's possible that she took strong painkillers to help her sleep (is that why her handbag had been emptied on the bed?) and that was why she was drowsy and compliant when JB (or whoever) pulled her out of bed and into her parents' room.
Hi shon, I donīt think she was on painkillers. The toxicology report doesnīt mention such in any case. Besides, they would have had to be some heavy duty ones to pacify her during THIS! Furthermore Sheilaīs stomach contents show that she had been up at some point during the night earing - which contradicts deep sleep so close to being up. I am speculating - guess we all are more or less, we donīt know what happened.
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In my mind it seems close to impossible. Three grown ups and two children - it seems a LOT, so much could go wrong.
But abs So much did go wrong it was far from the perfect crime. The rifle was under powered. Nev was able to fight back and nearly got to the kitchen phone. One shot didn't kill sheila as it missed her brain. He lost a glove in the struggle and had to clean up after him. There is lots more but you get the picture?
I get the picture, sure - this would have taken time. Where was Sheila during all this time? Just quietly waiting in line to get killed?
Hallo, abs. I still wonder if Sheila had taken strong painkillers, I'm not sure if toxicology tested for these. She had an IUD and, in those days at least, they could cause heavy and painful periods. She had obviously bled heavily enough to have to soak some clothing in a bucket. It's possible that she took strong painkillers to help her sleep (is that why her handbag had been emptied on the bed?) and that was why she was drowsy and compliant when JB (or whoever) pulled her out of bed and into her parents' room.
Hi shon, I donīt think she was on painkillers. The toxicology report doesnīt mention such in any case. Besides, they would have had to be some heavy duty ones to pacify her during THIS! Furthermore Sheilaīs stomach contents show that she had been up at some point during the night earing - which contradicts deep sleep so close to being up. I am speculating - guess we all are more or less, we donīt know what happened.
We certainly don't. I wish we had a doctor on here. I'm wondering, IF she took painkillers, would they have slowed down her digestion? Or did she eat before taking painkillers, to avoid them upsetting her stomach?
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Thank you for taking the time to look at this Myster. What I think brought this question to the surface was the mystery as to where the stairs to the 1st floor office originated? You know the ones which can just be seen in the cubby hole in the downstairs office.
Do you think theses stairs are accessed by an external door on the north side of the house?
If you use imgur.com you can attach any jpeg irrespective of file size.
Short answer No..... you enter the dark-brown Back Door into a small hallway.., on the right a door to the kitchen with the Aga..., on the left a door to the Laundry although no door is drawn on Bamber's plan..., next to it on the left a door into Nevill's den/Back Office (this is the room where the photo looking back into the hallway was taken..., you can just make out a chair and coat rack on the back wall) and looking straight ahead in the hallway the bottom of the stairs which give access to the Upper Office. So access to this staircase is entirely internal.
(http://i.imgur.com/xSxs3.jpg)
The question I put in an earlier thread was whether there was open access to the bedroom passage from the Upper Office, or whether it was closed off to keep the two functions, residential and commercial separate.
Obviously if it was open then this staircase could have been used by the assailant to get to the first floor without disturbing the family or the dog, rather than having to use the main hall stair where risk of detection would be greater.
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Is that a photo of the actual stairs Myster? Where did you get that one from?
I will have a look at what you describe when I get back to the office.
Thanks for posting it. 8((()*/
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Is that a photo of the actual stairs Myster? Where did you get that one from?
I will have a look at what you describe when I get back to the office.
Thanks for posting it. 8((()*/
No, it's one off the internet, just amended by me but it depicts which way I think the stairs are built.
If you look at the large cubby-hole picture, you can just make out the winders turning down to the right.., I know its difficult to make out at first.
In Nevill's den picture you can see underside of the straight flight cutting through a small clerestory window, so the staircase must butt against an outside wall.
If it still isn't clear I'll redraw the plan and post it when finished.