Has Scotland Yard dodged a bullet in the Maddie case?

[Mr Gray]

“So you are attesting that the Portuguese police are deliberately trying to scupper Scotland Yard's enquiry just to save face?”

Is a simple question to Davel in light of his posts in this thread.

I don't think the PJ are, actively  trying to scupper the SY investigation but I think they are doing the bare minimum to assist SY... I seem to remember resentment initially at the presence of the UK police

[Brietta]

I don't think the PJ are, actively  trying to scupper the SY investigation but I think they are doing the bare minimum to assist SY... I seem to remember resentment initially at the presence of the UK police

I think you are right that initially there may have been a bit of friction if press reports from the time are to be believed.

But in my opinion one of the benefits of the present investigations although not joint ones has been the obvious breakdown of barriers between the Policia Judiciaria and Scotland Yard.
As a result it is my opinion that should any sort of international cooperation of any kind be required between Portugal and England or any other national policing agency in the future it will benefit from a better joint understanding of each others' working arrangements.

[jassi]

Less likely to happen if UK withdraws from the European justice system post Brexit.  IMO

[Brietta]

Less likely to happen if UK withdraws from the European justice system post Brexit.  IMO

Good comment not really for discussion on this thread ... but certainly something which should have been given a lot more consideration than it was ... the Irish border being another 😢

[G-Unit]

I think you are right that initially there may have been a bit of friction if press reports from the time are to be believed.

But in my opinion one of the benefits of the present investigations although not joint ones has been the obvious breakdown of barriers between the Policia Judiciaria and Scotland Yard.
As a result it is my opinion that should any sort of international cooperation of any kind be required between Portugal and England or any other national policing agency in the future it will benefit from a better joint understanding of each others' working arrangements.

The Policia Judiciarua had experience of working with other countries before the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. Glen Pounder was well known to Amaral from his work in the area of drug trafficking.
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/07LISBON1388_a.html

It was to Pounder that Amaral turned in the beginning;


It is urgent to know who this couple is, as well as their friends, what do they do, what problems do they have in the UK, have they ever mistreated their children, has a neighbour, family, friend or anyone else noted any inappropriate behaviour? What is their profession? Full time? Has anyone suffered depression? Is the marriage relationship healthy? Are they involved in any serious litigation? Does anyone hold a grudge against them? Why?...

These questions were delivered to the UK-Portuguese police liaison [on 4 May] who GA has worked with for years, Glen Power, asking him to forward the request, which the team considered "essential to the investigation" and waited for the response.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id121.htm

As far as I know none of these questions were answered. Perhaps Pounder was too busy investigating boats seen in visions?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BOATS_VISION.htm

[xtina]

The Policia Judiciarua had experience of working with other countries before the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. Glen Pounder was well known to Amaral from his work in the area of drug trafficking.
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/07LISBON1388_a.html

It was to Pounder that Amaral turned in the beginning;


It is urgent to know who this couple is, as well as their friends, what do they do, what problems do they have in the UK, have they ever mistreated their children, has a neighbour, family, friend or anyone else noted any inappropriate behaviour? What is their profession? Full time? Has anyone suffered depression? Is the marriage relationship healthy? Are they involved in any serious litigation? Does anyone hold a grudge against them? Why?...

These questions were delivered to the UK-Portuguese police liaison [on 4 May] who GA has worked with for years, Glen Power, asking him to forward the request, which the team considered "essential to the investigation" and waited for the response.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id121.htm

As far as I know none of these questions were answered. Perhaps Pounder was too busy investigating boats seen in visions?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BOATS_VISION.htm

Wouldnt you have thought ....these questions were vital to being answered ...

especially in a missing child case...

[Alice Purjorick]

I think you are right that initially there may have been a bit of friction if press reports from the time are to be believed.

But in my opinion one of the benefits of the present investigations although not joint ones has been the obvious breakdown of barriers between the Policia Judiciaria and Scotland Yard.
As a result it is my opinion that should any sort of international cooperation of any kind be required between Portugal and England or any other national policing agency in the future it will benefit from a better joint understanding of each others' working arrangements.

"On 29 May 2000, the EU Council of Ministers adopted the Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters (2000 MLA Convention)
The objective of this Convention is to encourage and modernise cooperation between judicial and law enforcement authorities within the European Union as well as in Norway and Iceland by supplementing provisions in existing legal instruments and facilitating their application".

Seems like someone beat you to the punch by a few years.
If in your opinion it hasn't happened then we have a choice of two alternatives.
The whole of the Eurojust/MLA convention has been wasting its time for eighteen years or your opinion /judgement is wanting.
Faites vos jeux.

[Mr Gray]

The Policia Judiciarua had experience of working with other countries before the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. Glen Pounder was well known to Amaral from his work in the area of drug trafficking.
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/07LISBON1388_a.html

It was to Pounder that Amaral turned in the beginning;


It is urgent to know who this couple is, as well as their friends, what do they do, what problems do they have in the UK, have they ever mistreated their children, has a neighbour, family, friend or anyone else noted any inappropriate behaviour? What is their profession? Full time? Has anyone suffered depression? Is the marriage relationship healthy? Are they involved in any serious litigation? Does anyone hold a grudge against them? Why?...

These questions were delivered to the UK-Portuguese police liaison [on 4 May] who GA has worked with for years, Glen Power, asking him to forward the request, which the team considered "essential to the investigation" and waited for the response.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id121.htm

As far as I know none of these questions were answered. Perhaps Pounder was too busy investigating boats seen in visions?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BOATS_VISION.htm

Or perhaps they were answerred

[Angelo222]

You have quoted it but dont seem to undersatnd it...SY have done a lot of research but is limited re the investiagation as they cannot mount  a proper investigation in portugal

Certainly they can, all it requires is boots on the ground.  The cannot go out formally questioning people on their own but there are many things they can do just like Redwood did. ILOR's are a waste of time basically, nothing can beat having a crew out there liaising with the PJ on the ground.

I have no doubt whatsoever that the ordinary Portuguese cops would do all they could to assist SY but sitting in an office in London was never going to be enough.  It was just a sham imo.

[Mr Gray]

Certainly they can, all it requires is boots on the ground.  The cannot go out formally questioning people on their own but there are many things they can do just like Redwood did. ILOR's are a waste of time basically, nothing can beat having a crew out there liaising with the PJ on the ground.

I have no doubt whatsoever that the ordinary Portuguese cops would do all they could to assist SY but sitting in an office in London was never going to be enough.  It was just a sham imo.

You don't seem to understand the basics.... SY can't turn up in Portugal and question people

[Alice Purjorick]

Certainly they can, all it requires is boots on the ground.  The cannot go out formally questioning people on their own but there are many things they can do just like Redwood did. ILOR's are a waste of time basically, nothing can beat having a crew out there liaising with the PJ on the ground.

I have no doubt whatsoever that the ordinary Portuguese cops would do all they could to assist SY but sitting in an office in London was never going to be enough.  It was just a sham imo.

The Council of The European Union manual on JIT's does not share your view.

"Indeed, a JIT can quite properly be formed with members from two or more
Member States when nobody works outside their own Member State". [Section 5 page EN8]

Also
https://www.app.college.police.uk/app-content/investigations/european-investigations/#cps
the bits on the ILO and CPS are particularly interesting.

The MLA system hs been going for 18 years. The EU has 28 member states. Remove the McCann case from the equation then how much bother has there been between member states in criminal cross border cases?
I don't know but does anyone else?

[Angelo222]

The Council of The European Union manual on JIT's does not share your view.

"Indeed, a JIT can quite properly be formed with members from two or more
Member States when nobody works outside their own Member State". [Section 5 page EN8]

Also
https://www.app.college.police.uk/app-content/investigations/european-investigations/#cps
the bits on the ILO and CPS are particularly interesting.

The MLA system hs been going for 18 years. The EU has 28 member states. Remove the McCann case from the equation then how much bother has there been between member states in criminal cross border cases?
I don't know but does anyone else?

Sitting in an office in London certainly can be considered as partaking in a JIT but it is ineffective.  Undertaking an investigation by proxy is a total waste of time and resources. SY obviously have no real leads otherwise they would have been back to Portugal to follow them up.

As for the thread theme, SY have sidestepped the question very nicely for now.

[jassi]

Ms Dick can probably claim that they have no more resources to devote to this, but the case remains open, so they cannot release any details.

[slartibartfast]

Not in my opinion.  Nothing simple about it, and impossible to answer without Libelling The Portuguese Police.

You can’t libel the police.

[slartibartfast]

Do you know why there was no JIT despite Scotland Yard wanting one?


Also, is there the slightest chance we might progress this and other threads without the constant sniping at and parsing of Davel's posts?
In my opinion it is beginning to look like a campaign of harassment which I'm sure it can't be ... but I for one am finding it all so predictable, tiresome and distracting that as a moderator I think it should cease forthwith.
Don't you?

What has a JIT got to do with anything. Davel was asked a question which for some unknown reason 2 “senior” moderators feel they have to protect him from. Again it is a simple yes/no question.