Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?

[faithlilly]

I think he's already damaged his reputation as has Richard, Horton... Another govt critic who is a corbyn supporter.  He's been caught out by the tweet he made on 23 Jan... Something I'd already pointed out. 
It's not really possible to simply compare countries figures as they are collected in different ways... It's wrong to start drawing conclusions at such an early stage and I think like you... These two are just bad loser Tory [ censored word ]

No these are men who are respected by their peers and have headed world renowned organisations. One ill-advised tweet doesn’t change that.

And if it’s not really possible to compare countries why mention Spain and Germany ?

[Carana]

Spain’s deaths per million of population is far higher than the UK’s.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

I had thought that as well. However, worldometers - at least until very recently - only recorded deaths notified and posted by https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk

An example:
Department of Health and Social Care
@DHSCgovuk
·
2h
As of 9am 21 April, 535,342 tests have concluded, with 18,206 tests on 20 April.

397,670 people have been tested of which 129,044 tested positive.

As of 5pm on 20 April, of those hospitalised in the UK who tested positive for coronavirus, 17,337 have sadly died.

---

That didn't take into account deaths in care homes or even private residences. Numbers from some other countries do, including "suspected" ones. 

Seems like comparing apples, oranges and cubes of cheese for the moment.

I find it really confusing.

[Venturi Swirl]

I had thought that as well. However, worldometers - at least until very recently - only recorded deaths notified and posted by https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk

An example:
Department of Health and Social Care
@DHSCgovuk
·
2h
As of 9am 21 April, 535,342 tests have concluded, with 18,206 tests on 20 April.

397,670 people have been tested of which 129,044 tested positive.

As of 5pm on 20 April, of those hospitalised in the UK who tested positive for coronavirus, 17,337 have sadly died.

---

That didn't take into account deaths in care homes or even private residences. Numbers from some other countries do, including "suspected" ones. 

Seems like comparing apples, oranges and cubes of cheese for the moment.

I find it really confusing.

No, I think the deaths recorded by country on this website are all limited to deaths recorded in hospitals.

[Mr Gray]

No these are men who are respected by their peers and have headed world renowned organisations. One ill-advised tweet doesn’t change that.

And if it’s not really possible to compare countries why mention Spain and Germany ?

Because you and your experts are comparing. Where is your evidence that these men are now respected by their peers...it reminds of the fact it takes 10 years to build a reputaion and 5 minites to lose it

[Mr Gray]

No these are men who are respected by their peers and have headed world renowned organisations. One ill-advised tweet doesn’t change that.

And if it’s not really possible to compare countries why mention Spain and Germany ?

Professor John Ashton CBE....could you explain who respects this man apart from you. In 2014 he was forced to step down after calling someone ..."c**t", and another an "onanist...on twitter...he doesnt seem to have been heard of since 2014 until now.

that really puts his comments into perspective

[faithlilly]

Professor John Ashton CBE....could you explain who respects this man apart from you. In 2014 he was forced to step down after calling someone ..."c**t", and another an "onanist...on twitter...he doesnt seem to have been heard of since 2014 until now.

that really puts his comments into perspective

You do know that the Faculty for Public Health welcomed Ashton back as president in September 2014, don’t you and he carried on in the role until 2016 ?

A little more information on this exceptional man.

http://www.festivalofpublichealth.co.uk/keynotespeakers/pastkeynotespeakers/professorjohnashtoncbe/

Professor John Ashton CBE
President of the Faculty of Public Health
Professor John Ashton CBE, formerly North West Regional Director of Public Health and Regional Medical Officer from 1993 – 2006 and Director of Public Health and County medical Officer for Cumbria from 2006- 2013 has been elected President of the Faculty of Public Health of the Royal Colleges of Physicians from 2013 – 2016 was born in Liverpool in 1947.

He was educated at Quarry Bank High School in Liverpool, the University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne Medical School and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. He specialised in psychiatry, general practice, family planning and reproductive medicine before entering Public Health in 1976.

John worked in Newcastle and Northumberland, Hampshire and London before returning to Liverpool and the North West in 1983. For two years he was a councillor on Hampshire County Council.

John Ashton is well known for his work on Planned Parenthood and healthy cities and for his personal advocacy for Public Health. He was a member of the British delegation to Macedonia during the Kosovo emergency and played a prominent role in resolving the fuel dispute. He has been prominent in the fight for justice for the 96 victims of the Hillsborough football disaster.

John holds chairs in the Liverpool medical School, Liverpool John Moore’s University, the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine, Manchester Medical School, the Valencia Institute of Public Health in Spain, the Universities of Central Lancashire, Lancaster and Cumbria.

He is the author of many scientific papers: articles and chapters in books and of several books including “The New Public Health” which has been the standard textbook on Public Health.


And it would appear Jeremy Hunt agreed with Ashton’s observations on QT which of course were spot on.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8108091/Public-health-expert-Professor-John-Ashton-claims-UK-government-lost-control-coronavirus.html

[faithlilly]

Because you and your experts are comparing. Where is your evidence that these men are now respected by their peers...it reminds of the fact it takes 10 years to build a reputaion and 5 minites to lose it

‘Me and my experts’ were comparing ? Then why join in if there’s no comparison to be made ?

[Mr Gray]

‘Me and my experts’ were comparing ? Then why join in if there’s no comparison to be made ?

What I see is poeple with a chip on their shoulder who are angry that Corbyn and the Labour party were trounced at the election. One of the reasons Boris won was the sheer incompetence of Corbyn and his supporters. Starmer looks better... I hope I'm right

[Carana]

No, I think the deaths recorded by country on this website are all limited to deaths recorded in hospitals.

If you mean on worldometers, not necessarily.

France 21 April: 2667 new cases and 531 new deaths
If you go to the source document, of the cumulative total of 20,796 deaths, only 12,900 died in hospital.
https://www.gouvernement.fr/info-coronavirus/carte-et-donnees

The FT removed non-hospital deaths for France due to the apples and oranges issue. Their graph now states 12,900 for France as those were the hospital ones.
https://www.ft.com/coronavirus-latest

Belgium appears to have a very high death rate, but that seems to include all settings and even suspected cases.
https://www.info-coronavirus.be/en/news/collection-data/

I'm looking at Spain and Italy, but I'm not sure that I've found all the relevant pages.

[Mr Gray]

If you mean on worldometers, not necessarily.

France 21 April: 2667 new cases and 531 new deaths
If you go to the source document, of the cumulative total of 20,796 deaths, only 12,900 died in hospital.
https://www.gouvernement.fr/info-coronavirus/carte-et-donnees

The FT removed non-hospital deaths for France due to the apples and oranges issue. Their graph now states 12,900 for France as those were the hospital ones.
https://www.ft.com/coronavirus-latest

Belgium appears to have a very high death rate, but that seems to include all settings and even suspected cases.
https://www.info-coronavirus.be/en/news/collection-data/

I'm looking at Spain and Italy, but I'm not sure that I've found all the relevant pages.

So the claim that teh Uk is on track to have the most deaths does not seem to be supported by the evidence...what does that say for the corbyn supporter who made it

[faithlilly]

What I see is poeple with a chip on their shoulder who are angry that Corbyn and the Labour party were trounced at the election. One of the reasons Boris won was the sheer incompetence of Corbyn and his supporters. Starmer looks better... I hope I'm right

Not sure why you keep bringing Corbyn into the discussion...I suspect he’s your Amaral of politics....like you though I hope Starmer has more success getting into government than Corbyn...the last thing we need is another incompetent Tory government.

[faithlilly]

So the claim that teh Uk is on track to have the most deaths does not seem to be supported by the evidence...what does that say for the corbyn supporter who made it

It says you really need to read more widely. The Financial Times today.

https://www.ft.com/content/67e6a4ee-3d05-43bc-ba03-e239799fa6ab


UK coronavirus deaths more than double official figure according to FT study | Free to read

[Mr Gray]

It says you really need to read more widely. The Financial Times today.

https://www.ft.com/content/67e6a4ee-3d05-43bc-ba03-e239799fa6ab


UK coronavirus deaths more than double official figure according to FT study | Free to read

I dont need to read anything i already know. I was aware some time ago the daily figures related to hospital deaths. as Carana pointed out other countries figures may well be similarly counted. Just another stick with which  to beat a govt you hate....if it wasnt this it would be something else

[Carana]

If this is correct, there may have been around 41,000 COVID-related deaths in the UK so far.

https://www.ft.com/content/67e6a4ee-3d05-43bc-ba03-e239799fa6ab

[Mr Gray]

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