Apartment Key

[ShiningInLuz]

Cruciform keys are common in Portugal, and we had one on several visits to Spain.

Therefore, there is a common need for replacement keys.  Which in turn means there is a common need for a cruciform key cutter.

On line, it appears to be more commonly referred to as a cross key, and technically as an E111 key cutter.

It retails for a little over €300.

Where is the nearest key cutter to the OC?  Look a little further up the high street (Rua Direita) and there is an odds-and-ends shop that does key cutting now.

Did it do cruciform key cutting in 2007?  I don't know, nor do I care.  I have no doubt that 7-8 mins away in Lagos there would have been a cruciform key cutter in 2007, given that the key type is so common.

From what I can see re the cleaners' statements, they were given keys at the start of the day and handed them back at the end of the day.  I could not find any requirement to hand them back if they went off-site during a lunch break.

Key control appears to have been a weak security point.  MW staff would place cots in the apartments of MW clients who needed them, so they must have been given access to keys.

That makes the people with access to keys as - OC 24hr reception, cleaners, repair men, MW staff placing cots, staff doing check-ins on the MW bus from Faro to the OC.

[Alice Purjorick]

Cruciform keys are common in Portugal, and we had one on several visits to Spain.

Therefore, there is a common need for replacement keys.  Which in turn means there is a common need for a cruciform key cutter.

On line, it appears to be more commonly referred to as a cross key, and technically as an E111 key cutter.

It retails for a little over €300.

Where is the nearest key cutter to the OC?  Look a little further up the high street (Rua Direita) and there is an odds-and-ends shop that does key cutting now.

Did it do cruciform key cutting in 2007?  I don't know, nor do I care.  I have no doubt that 7-8 mins away in Lagos there would have been a cruciform key cutter in 2007, given that the key type is so common.

From what I can see re the cleaners' statements, they were given keys at the start of the day and handed them back at the end of the day.  I could not find any requirement to hand them back if they went off-site during a lunch break.

Key control appears to have been a weak security point. MW staff would place cots in the apartments of MW clients who needed them, so they must have been given access to keys.

That makes the people with access to keys as - OC 24hr reception, cleaners, repair men, MW staff placing cots, staff doing check-ins on the MW bus from Faro to the OC.

Taking it from the top: part of the objective of the business is to provide accommodation. Keys are handed out to perfect strangers as a function of that business i.e the people who are your customers.
Do we know for certain there was a not sign /sign out procedure for tradespersons ?

[sadie]

Cruciform keys are common in Portugal, and we had one on several visits to Spain.

Therefore, there is a common need for replacement keys.  Which in turn means there is a common need for a cruciform key cutter.

On line, it appears to be more commonly referred to as a cross key, and technically as an E111 key cutter.

It retails for a little over €300.

Where is the nearest key cutter to the OC?  Look a little further up the high street (Rua Direita) and there is an odds-and-ends shop that does key cutting now.

Did it do cruciform key cutting in 2007?  I don't know, nor do I care.  I have no doubt that 7-8 mins away in Lagos there would have been a cruciform key cutter in 2007, given that the key type is so common.

From what I can see re the cleaners' statements, they were given keys at the start of the day and handed them back at the end of the day.  I could not find any requirement to hand them back if they went off-site during a lunch break.

Key control appears to have been a weak security point.  MW staff would place cots in the apartments of MW clients who needed them, so they must have been given access to keys.

That makes the people with access to keys as - OC 24hr reception, cleaners, repair men, MW staff placing cots, staff doing check-ins on the MW bus from Faro to the OC.

Thank you SIL.

Let us not forget that somewhere we have learned that one of the OC staff (a maintenance man?  Cant rermember) lost some OC keys.

Nor should we ignore the fact that someone could have easily cast a new key uising a toy soldier lead casting kit.  As a kid I used to watch a schoolboy friend regularly cast dozens of soldiers

[ShiningInLuz]

Taking it from the top: part of the objective of the business is to provide accommodation. Keys are handed out to perfect strangers as a function of that business i.e the people who are your customers.
Do we know for certain there was a not sign /sign out procedure for tradespersons ?

We don't need to do the fandango.

Most hotels etc. use key cards because they provide better security.  The access code gets changed when a customer checks out.  The point is the OC used old-fashioned physical keys that are as cheap as chips to copy. 

What to do when one gets lost?  Just cut a copy.

[ShiningInLuz]

Thank you SIL.

Let us not forget that somewhere we have learned that one of the OC staff (a maintenance man?  Cant rermember) lost some OC keys.

Nor should we ignore the fact that someone could have easily cast a new key uising a toy soldier lead casting kit.  As a kid I used to watch a schoolboy friend regularly cast dozens of soldiers

Re bold.  No we most certainly have not.  That is a myth.  The PJ Files contains not a single mention of the loss of keys to block 5. 

The origin of this myth is a tabloid report perhaps 7 years on, where someone who admits to disliking the man (Tiago da Silva?) decides to fit him up with a tale of him losing all the keys to block 5.

[John]

Re bold.  No we most certainly have not.  That is a myth.  The PJ Files contains not a single mention of the loss of keys to block 5. 

The origin of this myth is a tabloid report perhaps 7 years on, where someone who admits to disliking the man (Tiago da Silva?) decides to fit him up with a tale of him losing all the keys to block 5.

Not sure about losing keys but there is a statement in the files from an OC Garden handyman who stated that the keys were readily accessible to staff at any time.

MIGUEL GONCALVES DA COSTA PALMA - Maintenance Worker

The keys to the living quarters and apartments that are under the responsibility of the Ocean Club, and are kept inside a safe in the Maintenance Garage, the access code to the safe is known by all maintenance workers.
The keys are only taken from the safe when it is necessary to carry out a service, in this case a service request exists, which is registered in the name of the maintenance worker and indicates the time spent and which is given to the Director of Maintenance Services, Mrs. Silvia.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MIGUEL-PALMA.htm

[slartibartfast]

Thank you SIL.

Let us not forget that somewhere we have learned that one of the OC staff (a maintenance man?  Cant rermember) lost some OC keys.

Nor should we ignore the fact that someone could have easily cast a new key uising a toy soldier lead casting kit.  As a kid I used to watch a schoolboy friend regularly cast dozens of soldiers

A bit soft, at least they wouldn't need a furnace.

[sadie]

A bit soft, at least they wouldn't need a furnace.

Yep, soft and malleable, but frazed up they would easily do a one off door unlock if the lock was in good oiled condition imo

[Alice Purjorick]

We don't need to do the fandango.

Most hotels etc. use key cards because they provide better security.  The access code gets changed when a customer checks out.  The point is the OC used old-fashioned physical keys that are as cheap as chips to copy. 

What to do when one gets lost?  Just cut a copy.

That's all fine and dandy but Apartment 5A was not part of an hotel. It was privately owned.

I am not into fandangos old stick. New Fangled Tangos were more my bag.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akZm0rU-UnE

[ShiningInLuz]

That's all fine and dandy but Apartment 5A was not part of an hotel. It was privately owned.

I am not into fandangos old stick. New Fangled Tangos were more my bag.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akZm0rU-UnE

It definitely wasn't part of 'an hotel' (sic) or a hotel.

It had a key that was old technology and easy and cheap to copy.

The rest is unimportant.

[Alice Purjorick]

It definitely wasn't part of 'an hotel' (sic) or a hotel.

It had a key that was old technology and easy and cheap to copy.

The rest is unimportant.

Why would anyone copy a key when they can buy one of these ?:
https://www.sks.co.uk/locksmith-tools/lock-picks/cruciform-picks.

[ShiningInLuz]

Why would anyone copy a key when they can buy one of these ?:
https://www.sks.co.uk/locksmith-tools/lock-picks/cruciform-picks.

Personally, I'd nip up to the store and cough up the €5 to 10€ for a copy that opens the lock in zero seconds, but that is just me.  Perhaps you would prefer to fumble at the door for however long.

[Robittybob1]

The door latch is designed not to allow the door to blow shut and lock yourself out without the key.  To close the door from the outside you need the key.  So if Madeleine left by the front door she only had to pull the latch open and leave.  But the door could not be shut behind her.  So if it was shut properly when Kate did her check someone had closed it from the inside after Madeleine had left.  That sequence is pretty dam important.

[Alice Purjorick]

Personally, I'd nip up to the store and cough up the €5 to 10€ for a copy that opens the lock in zero seconds, but that is just me.  Perhaps you would prefer to fumble at the door for however long.

How did you obtain the original key from which the copy was cut ? 

[misty]

The door latch is designed not to allow the door to blow shut and lock yourself out without the key.  To close the door from the outside you need the key.  So if Madeleine left by the front door she only had to pull the latch open and leave.  But the door could not be shut behind her.  So if it was shut properly when Kate did her check someone had closed it from the inside after Madeleine had left.  That sequence is pretty dam important.

The first lock is on a spring so it can be closed from the outside by simply pulling it shut and it could blow shut. To double lock it, a key is required. Whether single locked or double locked, a key is required outside to open the door.
If the first lock was not on a spring then the credit card trick could not be used (Amaral's obstacle in that method was a strategically placed screw).
No doubt Alice will correct me if I'm wrong from an 'ospitable 'otel  in 'arrow.