Author Topic: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.  (Read 20312 times)

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Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
« Reply #150 on: October 30, 2018, 10:48:37 PM »
The statements taken from the majority Portuguese speaking witnesses were essentially OK IMO, it would only be those taken from non-Portuguese speaking persons that would have issues if it ever came to a court hearing.

But you would think all statements should have been taken from the beginning to a standard that they could be used "in accordance with the relevant laws and court procedures".

They ended up with the crazy situation of one of the translators becoming an arguido.

Try looking at the English rules for witness statements, it is not so dissimilar.
Once you have grasped how the process works you will begin to understand how irrelevant some of this argument has become.

When you can produce a witness statement as evidence in court
To be admissible in court, evidence must be relevant to a fact which has to be proved, or disproved.
Nothing proves itself, and every fact, and document relied upon in court must be proved by admissible evidence.
When you cannot produce a witness statement as evidence
A written witness statement is not admissible on its own as evidence at trial if the defence do not agree with the evidence that has been written within it.

How the statement is used in court
The statement will be read out at the hearing, only if it has been agreed by both the
prosecution and defence. This allows for evidence to be given without having to call
the witness to attend. If there is no agreement, the statement will not be read out in court.
A witness may refer to specific documents in a statement and these documents or items of evidence will be ‘produced’ as exhibits in the case. Any document or object referred to as anexhibit and identified in the statement will be treated as if it has been produced by the person who made the statement.


For what happens in Portugal see CCP 78/87 Articles 128 onwards.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
« Reply #151 on: October 31, 2018, 07:14:43 AM »
Try looking at the English rules for witness statements, it is not so dissimilar.
Once you have grasped how the process works you will begin to understand how irrelevant some of this argument has become.

When you can produce a witness statement as evidence in court
To be admissible in court, evidence must be relevant to a fact which has to be proved, or disproved.
Nothing proves itself, and every fact, and document relied upon in court must be proved by admissible evidence.
When you cannot produce a witness statement as evidence
A written witness statement is not admissible on its own as evidence at trial if the defence do not agree with the evidence that has been written within it.

How the statement is used in court
The statement will be read out at the hearing, only if it has been agreed by both the
prosecution and defence. This allows for evidence to be given without having to call
the witness to attend. If there is no agreement, the statement will not be read out in court.
A witness may refer to specific documents in a statement and these documents or items of evidence will be ‘produced’ as exhibits in the case. Any document or object referred to as anexhibit and identified in the statement will be treated as if it has been produced by the person who made the statement.


For what happens in Portugal see CCP 78/87 Articles 128 onwards.

From the cps website


Any witness statement taken from a person who has difficulty in speaking or understanding English should be recorded in the foreign language and signed by the witness. It should include the declaration prescribed in section 9(2)(b) Criminal Justice Act 1967 or section 102(2

Things are quite different  in the uk

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/interpreters
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 07:20:01 AM by Davel »

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
« Reply #152 on: October 31, 2018, 10:27:01 AM »
From the cps website


Any witness statement taken from a person who has difficulty in speaking or understanding English should be recorded in the foreign language and signed by the witness. It should include the declaration prescribed in section 9(2)(b) Criminal Justice Act 1967 or section 102(2

Things are quite different  in the uk

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/interpreters
I think Alice is saying it doesn't matter how the statements are taken as they are unlikely to have contributed to the case.
I disagree, for if the witness was to give evidence in court the statement is often the source of the questions so it needs to be accurate.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 11:21:47 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
« Reply #153 on: October 31, 2018, 12:39:31 PM »
From the cps website


Any witness statement taken from a person who has difficulty in speaking or understanding English should be recorded in the foreign language and signed by the witness. It should include the declaration prescribed in section 9(2)(b) Criminal Justice Act 1967 or section 102(2

Things are quite different  in the uk

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/interpreters

You are quoting how the statement is taken.
I was stating how it may used which is the only relevant criterion.
It matters not how it was taken given it complied with the procedures required by the specific country.
Are you suggesting The Home Office do not know waht they are on about in this context?
Definition of an ‘admissible witness statement’
To be admissible (allowed) in court section 9 of the Criminal Justice Act (CJA) 1967
states for a witness statement to be used as evidence in any criminal proceeding, other than committal proceedings, it must:

be a formal written document of a person

be a set of facts relating to a certain event, or events

be signed by the person who makes it, to confirm that the contents of the
document are true, this is known as a statement of truth

have had a copy served on the other parties before the trial
If all of the above apply, the witness does not always need to attend the trial to give oral evidence. But once they have made a written statement they may be called on to attend court and give their evidence in person. The jury do not see witness statements so the evidence contained in them will either be read out by counsel or be given oraly by the person who has given the statement

It sure screws things up for armchair tecs but in the real world the processes are not dissimilar in many countries.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
« Reply #154 on: October 31, 2018, 12:51:12 PM »
You are quoting how the statement is taken.
I was stating how it may used which is the only relevant criterion.
It matters not how it was taken given it complied with the procedures required by the specific country.
Are you suggesting The Home Office do not know waht they are on about in this context?
Definition of an ‘admissible witness statement’
To be admissible (allowed) in court section 9 of the Criminal Justice Act (CJA) 1967
states for a witness statement to be used as evidence in any criminal proceeding, other than committal proceedings, it must:

be a formal written document of a person

be a set of facts relating to a certain event, or events

be signed by the person who makes it, to confirm that the contents of the
document are true, this is known as a statement of truth

have had a copy served on the other parties before the trial
If all of the above apply, the witness does not always need to attend the trial to give oral evidence. But once they have made a written statement they may be called on to attend court and give their evidence in person. The jury do not see witness statements so the evidence contained in them will either be read out by counsel or be given oraly by the person who has given the statement

It sure screws things up for armchair tecs but in the real world the processes are not dissimilar in many countries.

The only armchair  techs who it screws up are the sceptics who have used discrepancies  in the, statements as evidence if guilt.... Thanks for pointing it out

Offline G-Unit

Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
« Reply #155 on: October 31, 2018, 01:23:26 PM »
The only armchair  techs who it screws up are the sceptics who have used discrepancies  in the, statements as evidence if guilt.... Thanks for pointing it out

Some supporters became quite fond of a certain archiving dispatch, but not all understood what it's actual significance was.
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Ignore and break the rules
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Offline Sunny

Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
« Reply #156 on: October 31, 2018, 01:26:36 PM »
The only armchair  techs who it screws up are the sceptics who have used discrepancies  in the, statements as evidence if guilt.... Thanks for pointing it out

In your opinion of course Davel.
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
« Reply #157 on: October 31, 2018, 03:59:02 PM »
Some supporters became quite fond of a certain archiving dispatch, but not all understood what it's actual significance was.

I would say most if not all here did

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
« Reply #158 on: October 31, 2018, 05:22:55 PM »
The only armchair  techs who it screws up are the sceptics who have used discrepancies  in the, statements as evidence if guilt.... Thanks for pointing it out

You appear to have ducked the point.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
« Reply #159 on: October 31, 2018, 05:24:35 PM »
I think Alice is saying it doesn't matter how the statements are taken as they are unlikely to have contributed to the case.
I disagree, for if the witness was to give evidence in court the statement is often the source of the questions so it needs to be accurate.

I am not saying that at all.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
« Reply #160 on: October 31, 2018, 05:49:43 PM »
I would say most if not all here did

So most supporters became quite fond of a certain archiving dispatch, but not all understood what it's actual significance was.?
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
« Reply #161 on: October 31, 2018, 06:04:58 PM »
"but in the real world the processes are not dissimilar in many countries"  what does that mean?  Are the processes similar or different in many countries?

Google "dissimilar"
"dissimilar

adjective
not the same; different.
"a collection of dissimilar nations lacking overall homogeneity"

"but in the real world the processes are not dissimilar [not the same] in many countries"

Not not is a double negative becomes positive i.e. "not not the same" becomes "the same".

"but in the real world the processes are "the same" in many countries"

Alice is this what you meant? ".... but in the real world the processes are "the same" in many countries"
 

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John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
« Reply #162 on: October 31, 2018, 06:11:21 PM »
You appear to have ducked the point.
I found it a good point though.    What we object to is the statements in Portuguese being signed off as being correct by non-Portuguese speaking witnesses.  That is the unnatural point. 
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 06:14:33 PM by Robittybob1 »
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
« Reply #163 on: October 31, 2018, 06:34:16 PM »
So most supporters became quite fond of a certain archiving dispatch, but not all understood what it's actual significance was.?

Do you have a cite not all understood... From the posts I've seen everyone understood it perfectly

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Madeleine McCann: Mari Luz Cortes connection, fact and fiction.
« Reply #164 on: October 31, 2018, 06:58:53 PM »
I found it a good point though.    What we object to is the statements in Portuguese being signed off as being correct by non-Portuguese speaking witnesses.  That is the unnatural point.

That is just tough, it is part of the process. By your logic anyone who cannot speak the language of the proceedings would be precluded from making a statement. You seem to be looking for Reds under the bed.

If the statement is not signed by the person making it then it is inadmissible in any court proceedings.


"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey