Documentaries & Articles for Discussion

[pathfinder73]

Part 4

At the time we did it, it was not irresponsible!” Gerry snaps. It is the one subject on which he is quite defensive, arguing first one way, then conceding the opposite: “Of course we feel guilty about not having been there, and that is just something we have to deal with for the rest of our lives. You are not asking anything we don’t think about on a daily basis. We live this 24 hours a day.” His lips twist as he struggles for composure. “But I can’t talk to you about the details of what happened. I live under threat from the Portuguese—if I do talk—of two years’ imprisonment.” He smiles grimly. “It seems to be the same sentence as disposing of a child’s body.”

The mayor of tiny Praia da Luz, Manuel Domingues Borba, announced just a few weeks ago that he for one “would never leave my children sleeping alone and go to dinner in a foreign country.” The McCanns, in his opinion, are “guilty of negligence at the very least.” The Portuguese police, under chief Alípio Ribeiro, are reviewing the case. Some of their detectives, I am told, will likely be flying to Britain soon to re-interview the McCanns, although no official request has yet been made. Should the McCanns actually be charged and tried, their legal strategy will be to focus, in part, on what they claim is the unreliability of evidence turned up by the dogs and to try to move the trial to Britain from Portugal. The McCanns live in perpetual limbo. There is no exit.

By early January there was more bad news: Correio da Manhã, a Portuguese newspaper, claimed that the Policia Judiciária were about to deliver an interim report suggesting the McCanns were “prime suspects” after all, who could have accidentally killed Madeleine and then disposed of her body. Or, the report added, perhaps the child was in fact abducted. In other words, eight months after the little girl vanished, the police still know nothing.

Lately, word has leaked out that the McCanns feel abandoned even by Gordon Brown, once their close ally. Their spokesman doesn’t quite deny this. “That was one of our backers who said it. We would never be that impolitic,” he says. “But it is true that we have requested a meeting with the prime minister to show him the strength of our case, to explain Kate and Gerry’s innocence—and yet all we’ve been offered is a medium-level-consular meeting, which we rejected.”

Occasionally their $1,200-an-hour lawyer Angus McBride, whose salary is defrayed by Virgin founder Sir Richard Branson, Scottish businessman Stephen Winyard, and Brian Kennedy, a multi-millionaire rugby-team owner, drops in on the British tabloids to protest headlines such as portuguese paper smear: “kate killed madeleine as gerry played tennis.”

For Kate, this is all too much. At nights, as her mother recently informed one newspaper, she awakes and thinks Madeleine has come home. While her husband and I talk, she ducks into the local Catholic church, unable, despite her earlier resolve, to face a single question.

Kate is fragile, I say to Gerry.

“That is undoubtedly true,” he concedes. “It’s very difficult to describe this situation. One month, three months, five months, five and a half months. And I know now that, probably, the chances of getting Madeleine back are slim. You know, it’s difficult. Very difficult.” He swallows hard. “You might never see her again. But still you have the hope. Still.”

On Sunday he will join his despairing wife in church, even though, as Gerry puts it, “I am not the most religious person in the world.” The whole McCann family is going to church more often, for that matter, even his skeptical older brother.

“What would you do when you’re desperate?” says John. “You start to ask the big questions again: Why does this happen?”

And?

“And,” he says wearily, “I think there’s probably still no God.”

Judy Bachrach is a Vanity Fair contributing editor.

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2008/02/mccanns200802

[pegasus]

Jornal da Tarde 09/08/2007 video
https://youtu.be/r_mAQvclYAc
From 20 seconds to 29 seconds what is happening?

[stephen25000]

Now who said this...................

' "She just said, 'Help me, please help me'. She said, 'We've been searching all night until 4.30am, and then everybody left us'. At that stage there was only one police officer at the door. They didn't know what to do. So I phoned GMTV." '

 

[misty]

Now who said this...................

' "She just said, 'Help me, please help me'. She said, 'We've been searching all night until 4.30am, and then everybody left us'. At that stage there was only one police officer at the door. They didn't know what to do. So I phoned GMTV." '

 

Someone who lived in the same street as Brown's brother. Your point is.....?

[Anna]

There were police there all night after the crime scene police left at about 4.30am.
after this time, IIRC Kate asked Fiona to keep an eye on the twins, while she and Gerry went out searching together.

Emma knight
Quite a bit later that night I remember the police asking everyone to leave the apartment. I received a call from John informing me that he had arranged for another apartment for the McCanns. I went to reception and helped Lyndsey to move the two cots to the new apartment

The McCanns went to the new apartment and I remember seeing Kate and Mrs Payne seated on the sofa, each holding one of the twins. I left the new apartment at 04.30 in the morning after instructions from John Hill. I was the last to leave, the police had already left, but I left my number saying that I was available for anything that might be needed.

New apartment was The Paynes apartment for that night, I think. It was in the morning that they moved to the new apartment.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post112.html#p112

[pathfinder73]

There were police there all night after the crime scene police left at about 4.30am.
after this time, IIRC Kate asked Fiona to keep an eye on the twins, while she and Gerry went out searching together.

Emma knight
Quite a bit later that night I remember the police asking everyone to leave the apartment. I received a call from John informing me that he had arranged for another apartment for the McCanns. I went to reception and helped Lyndsey to move the two cots to the new apartment

The McCanns went to the new apartment and I remember seeing Kate and Mrs Payne seated on the sofa, each holding one of the twins. I left the new apartment at 04.30 in the morning after instructions from John Hill. I was the last to leave, the police had already left, but I left my number saying that I was available for anything that might be needed.

New apartment was The Paynes apartment for that night, I think. It was in the morning that they moved to the new apartment.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post112.html#p112

DP and Gerry went out searching between 3 and 4am. They went to the beach and reported to be seen by the church.

Kate and Gerry didn't go out until after 5am when nearly everyone was asleep in PDL. It was still cold and dark when they left the Payne's apartment according to Fiona. They were seen at around 7am by an officer in a nearby street.

[mercury]

The Mccans as a couple searched after daybreak, as evidenced by the police saying they spotted them out, not during the night. Kate did no search at all before then, her husband went out s for a bit, again as evidenced by police when they were asked by her m for directions to the church,

Though, she did tell the world 5 years after the event that she went out running down the streets shortly after the events, but not before her book was published, in all the interviews given in media. Odd that, considering the flack she got for so long that she did not search at all.

[misty]

When were the 2nd set of phones given to the McCanns?
By the 2nd night, the world & his brother were watching the parents. I doubt there was any place they went without being trailed by a reporter.

[pegasus]

@misty they were both delivered to DP at the police station in Portimao on May 4th

[misty]

@misty they were both delivered to DP at the police station in Portimao on May 4th

Thank you, Pegasus. I did know that - hence I cannot understand Pathfinder's insistence on tracking phones which they didn't have on the night of the 3rd. By the time the parents returned from the police station on the 4th, every movement was undoubtedly being scrutinised.

[pegasus]

Thank you, Pegasus. I did know that - hence I cannot understand Pathfinder's insistence on tracking phones which they didn't have on the night of the 3rd. By the time the parents returned from the police station on the 4th, every movement was undoubtedly being scrutinised.

The phones tracked in the published files include all 9 group mobiles but not the two extra mobiles. But the fact they were delivered to a police station is a big clue they are not covert!  Also there is no published tracking of another mobile which was provided by police to deal with ransomers.

[pathfinder73]

Gonçalo Amaral, former coordinator of the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, launches a new book with a compilation of essays on crime in Portugal, signed by several specialists in the matter.
Coordinated by Gonçalo Amaral himself, “Justice and Delinquency” is a compilation of opinions, proposals, solutions and analysis written by judges, lawyers, prosecutors, a criminal investigation coordinator, a journalist and a psychologist.
Among the authors of “Justice and Delinquency” are: Rui Rangel (Judge), Maria dos Santos Ribeiro (Judge), Maria Clara Oliveira (Prosecutor), Marta Daniela Seixas (Deputy Prosecutor), Paulo Sargento (psychologist and university professor), Hernâni Carvalho (journalist and psychologist), and the lawyer Manuel Augusto Meireis.
The former coordinator of the Judicial Police (PJ), author of “Maddie, the truth of the lie” (“Maddie, l’enquête interdite”, the French version available in Belgium and France), will present his new book “Justice and Delinquency” on 25 June 2009, at the bookshop “Alethea” in Lisbon.

[pathfinder73]

The phones tracked in the published files include all 9 group mobiles but not the two extra mobiles. But the fact they were delivered to a police station is a big clue they are not covert!  Also there is no published tracking of another mobile which was provided by police to deal with ransomers.

They need to be investigated. If they aren't in the PJ files then they didn't know about them.

01:00:40 Male knocks at the door, DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room.
 01:02:37 DC MESSIAH re-enters the room.
 1485 "You thought we'd finished didn't you.'
 Reply "I know.'
1485 "(Laughs)'
 Reply "Not quite.'
1485 "Not quite, no. Not long now to go. Okay, I'm just gonna go over these, this phone issue again.'
 Reply "Yeah, yeah.'
1485 "I just, there's just some areas that I've been asked to point out, or been asked to speak to you about.'
 Reply "Yeah.'
1485 "Who lent you these phones that SA had organised for you''
 Reply "Err I mean, S brother err is a gentleman called Nand N's wife N had got friends out in the Algarve and they were just you know basic people who were just willing to help us in whatever capacity it was, whether we wanted a room for the night or anything and they asked is there anything we can do, err whether they could do, and err and that was, you know, that was one thing we said well actually you know err Kate's phone's nearly ran out, we're sat, we don't know how long we're gonna be at the Police Station you know could, you know, can they, you know is there any way of getting phones to us just so that you know, we can, for communication. Err and err so that was, that was a capacity really err of people.'
01:04:02 1485 "And where were these phones, when did these phones arrive''
 Reply "Err when did we get the phones' When we were at the Police Station, err you know as, you know I just asked whether I could just pop downstairs there was someone who's brought us phones and they said yeah, so I quickly popped downstairs, got the phones, and took them back into the Police Station. Err I can't remember if there was any power in them when we opened them up but err so then that was, you know, so the phones were just, you know because we hadn't got any other, anything there, so.'
1485 "And what phones were they' Do you remember what sort of, what make they were''
 Reply "Err they were Samsung phones, err and I think they were Vodaphone SIM cards. Err the actual model, I can't tell you the Samsung phone but they were, something like the Samsung three hundred, something like that.'
1485 "Yeah, how many phones were there''
 Reply "There was, there was two err and we ended up, err again, we ended up keeping one and Kate and Gerry had one, I think we gave the second one to Kate and Gerry as well after a while but we were err you know because they'd got credit put on to them so we were just using those phones rather than run up the expense of our own phones.'
1485 "Yeah.'
 01:05:33 Reply "So err yeah.'
1485 "So the two phones, you've kept one and gave one to Kate and Gerry''
 Reply "Kate and Gerry yeah.'
1485 "And do you have the numbers of those phones in your phone''
 Reply "I don't, no, no.'
1485 "Where are these phones now''
 Reply "Err as far as I am aware that they, you know, remained in Portugal, again''
1485 "With whom''
 Reply "With Kate and Gerry.'
1485 "So Kate and Gerry took possession of that second phone which you had''
 Reply "Well, they certainly kept the first one, the second one, the second one, sorry, no I think that's rubbish. I think I, I may well have got the, I might have got the second phone. Actually I've got a sneaky feeling when I got home I tried the UK SIM card in it and it didn't work so I could well have got the second phone.'
1485 "So is it likely that this second phone is at your home address''
 Reply "Err that is a strong possibility.'
1485 "So two Samsung phones.'
 Reply "Yeah, yeah.'
1485 "One is, to your knowledge, still with Kate and Gerry.'
 Reply "Yeah.'
 1485 "The other one you may well have at your home address.'
 Reply "Yeah, yeah.'
1485 "Did you use the phones often''
 Reply "Not''
1485 "In Portugal''
 Reply "Not a great deal no, no, it was, it was, first of all you know we didn't have any numbers in them already and then with being a Portuguese phone you know it was just a bit more difficult so we, if we ever used them, I mean which wasn't often, we'd perhaps call Kate and Gerry using the Portuguese phone, but it wasn't a kind of religious oh we'll just use the, that Portuguese phone to err you know establish communication.'
1485 "Yeah.'
 01:07:23 Reply "Err you know and the other reason that we, we had the, one of the phones is because Fiona didn't have a phone either so you know, so it's like she had the use of the other phone as well.'
1485 "Right, so out of the two of you then, who predominantly used that phone''
 Reply "I'd say Fiona.'
1485 "Fiona''
 Reply "Yeah.'
1485 "And has it been used since it's been in the UK''
 Reply "No.'
1485 "Okay, okay.'
 Reply "And I'm just trying to think you know how much, you know the, the, I can't remember you know obviously we were there for four weeks after but when the actual credit ran out, because I remember the credit running out and not being able to actually put anymore on even though it's supposed to be quite straight forward but again, you know whether that was after, you know, three weeks of being out there or whatever I can't remember.'
1485 "Yeah, how many times do you think you topped it up then''
 Reply "I don't, I don't think we did, I don't think I did. I don't think I could work out how to do it to be honest.'
1485 "So when both of them arrived both of them had credit on them''
 Reply "They put, I think they put, I think err I think they put forty pound credit or forty euros, you know, which seemed to last a lot longer than the amount of credit we were (inaudible) we were using our own err mobile phones.'
 1485 "Just wait there a second I'll just (inaudible).'
 Reply "Okay.'
 01:08:40 DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room.
 01:09:00 DC MESSIAH re-enters the interview room.
1485 "All done.'
 Reply "Okay.'
1485 "The phone, is it likely that I could collect it when I take you home''
 Reply "I can certainly have a look for it and I can give you, I mean if you, if you wanted to have my other mobile phone with all the numbers in and you know if you can access text messages on that you're welcome to have that phone.'
1485 "Okay, do you know where you'd be able to put your hand on it if you''
 Reply "Err the Samsung one, again, there was a Vodaphone bag that was knocking around, and that would be where it is if err I can find it. Fiona might know.'
1485 "Okay, perhaps you could give her a call or something.'
 Reply "Yeah, yeah.'
1485 "Alright then, it's now sixteen forty on this date.'
 01:09:48 The interview ceased at 1640 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.
 SIGNATURE (Sgd)
 SLS

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

[Brietta]

They need to be investigated. If they aren't in the PJ files then they didn't know about them.

01:00:40 Male knocks at the door, DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room.
 01:02:37 DC MESSIAH re-enters the room.
 1485 "You thought we'd finished didn't you.'
 Reply "I know.'
1485 "(Laughs)'
 Reply "Not quite.'
1485 "Not quite, no. Not long now to go. Okay, I'm just gonna go over these, this phone issue again.'
 Reply "Yeah, yeah.'
1485 "I just, there's just some areas that I've been asked to point out, or been asked to speak to you about.'
 Reply "Yeah.'
1485 "Who lent you these phones that SA had organised for you''
 Reply "Err I mean, S brother err is a gentleman called Nand N's wife N had got friends out in the Algarve and they were just you know basic people who were just willing to help us in whatever capacity it was, whether we wanted a room for the night or anything and they asked is there anything we can do, err whether they could do, and err and that was, you know, that was one thing we said well actually you know err Kate's phone's nearly ran out, we're sat, we don't know how long we're gonna be at the Police Station you know could, you know, can they, you know is there any way of getting phones to us just so that you know, we can, for communication. Err and err so that was, that was a capacity really err of people.'
01:04:02 1485 "And where were these phones, when did these phones arrive''
 Reply "Err when did we get the phones' When we were at the Police Station, err you know as, you know I just asked whether I could just pop downstairs there was someone who's brought us phones and they said yeah, so I quickly popped downstairs, got the phones, and took them back into the Police Station. Err I can't remember if there was any power in them when we opened them up but err so then that was, you know, so the phones were just, you know because we hadn't got any other, anything there, so.'
1485 "And what phones were they' Do you remember what sort of, what make they were''
 Reply "Err they were Samsung phones, err and I think they were Vodaphone SIM cards. Err the actual model, I can't tell you the Samsung phone but they were, something like the Samsung three hundred, something like that.'
1485 "Yeah, how many phones were there''
 Reply "There was, there was two err and we ended up, err again, we ended up keeping one and Kate and Gerry had one, I think we gave the second one to Kate and Gerry as well after a while but we were err you know because they'd got credit put on to them so we were just using those phones rather than run up the expense of our own phones.'
1485 "Yeah.'
 01:05:33 Reply "So err yeah.'
1485 "So the two phones, you've kept one and gave one to Kate and Gerry''
 Reply "Kate and Gerry yeah.'
1485 "And do you have the numbers of those phones in your phone''
 Reply "I don't, no, no.'
1485 "Where are these phones now''
 Reply "Err as far as I am aware that they, you know, remained in Portugal, again''
1485 "With whom''
 Reply "With Kate and Gerry.'
1485 "So Kate and Gerry took possession of that second phone which you had''
 Reply "Well, they certainly kept the first one, the second one, the second one, sorry, no I think that's rubbish. I think I, I may well have got the, I might have got the second phone. Actually I've got a sneaky feeling when I got home I tried the UK SIM card in it and it didn't work so I could well have got the second phone.'
1485 "So is it likely that this second phone is at your home address''
 Reply "Err that is a strong possibility.'
1485 "So two Samsung phones.'
 Reply "Yeah, yeah.'
1485 "One is, to your knowledge, still with Kate and Gerry.'
 Reply "Yeah.'
 1485 "The other one you may well have at your home address.'
 Reply "Yeah, yeah.'
1485 "Did you use the phones often''
 Reply "Not''
1485 "In Portugal''
 Reply "Not a great deal no, no, it was, it was, first of all you know we didn't have any numbers in them already and then with being a Portuguese phone you know it was just a bit more difficult so we, if we ever used them, I mean which wasn't often, we'd perhaps call Kate and Gerry using the Portuguese phone, but it wasn't a kind of religious oh we'll just use the, that Portuguese phone to err you know establish communication.'
1485 "Yeah.'
 01:07:23 Reply "Err you know and the other reason that we, we had the, one of the phones is because Fiona didn't have a phone either so you know, so it's like she had the use of the other phone as well.'
1485 "Right, so out of the two of you then, who predominantly used that phone''
 Reply "I'd say Fiona.'
1485 "Fiona''
 Reply "Yeah.'
1485 "And has it been used since it's been in the UK''
 Reply "No.'
1485 "Okay, okay.'
 Reply "And I'm just trying to think you know how much, you know the, the, I can't remember you know obviously we were there for four weeks after but when the actual credit ran out, because I remember the credit running out and not being able to actually put anymore on even though it's supposed to be quite straight forward but again, you know whether that was after, you know, three weeks of being out there or whatever I can't remember.'
1485 "Yeah, how many times do you think you topped it up then''
 Reply "I don't, I don't think we did, I don't think I did. I don't think I could work out how to do it to be honest.'
1485 "So when both of them arrived both of them had credit on them''
 Reply "They put, I think they put, I think err I think they put forty pound credit or forty euros, you know, which seemed to last a lot longer than the amount of credit we were (inaudible) we were using our own err mobile phones.'
 1485 "Just wait there a second I'll just (inaudible).'
 Reply "Okay.'
 01:08:40 DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room.
 01:09:00 DC MESSIAH re-enters the interview room.
1485 "All done.'
 Reply "Okay.'
1485 "The phone, is it likely that I could collect it when I take you home''
 Reply "I can certainly have a look for it and I can give you, I mean if you, if you wanted to have my other mobile phone with all the numbers in and you know if you can access text messages on that you're welcome to have that phone.'
1485 "Okay, do you know where you'd be able to put your hand on it if you''
 Reply "Err the Samsung one, again, there was a Vodaphone bag that was knocking around, and that would be where it is if err I can find it. Fiona might know.'
1485 "Okay, perhaps you could give her a call or something.'
 Reply "Yeah, yeah.'
1485 "Alright then, it's now sixteen forty on this date.'
 01:09:48 The interview ceased at 1640 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.
 SIGNATURE (Sgd)
 SLS

Oh ... I see ... we are still on about the phones.

Wonder why it is that despite having access to all that information SY have given it a body swerve and have concentrated on the phone pings of people who were in the vicinity at the time and may have had the opportunity and the motive to snatch a child and whose phones were not given the same attention the preferred suspects' phones were given.
There are arguidos in this case ... not the people you would like them to be ... but worth waiting to see how the evidence against them works out or is dismissed.

[DCI]

The phones tracked in the published files include all 9 group mobiles but not the two extra mobiles. But the fact they were delivered to a police station is a big clue they are not covert!  Also there is no published tracking of another mobile which was provided by police to deal with ransomers.

No mobile was provided to Kate and Gerry to deal with ransomers. The phone calls were all made to the PJ. The emails from someone saying they knew where Madeliene was, also went to the PJ first.