Author Topic: Madeleine McCann...burglars don't steal children but do they??  (Read 44899 times)

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Offline John

Madeleine McCann...burglars don't steal children but do they??
« on: January 19, 2014, 01:43:57 AM »
Mark Williams-Thomas downplays pending arrests in Madeleine case

Mark Williams-Thomes, "Burglars don't abduct children!"

The expected arrests in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann that British media are calling imminent are being "overplayed," according to a former police detective with extensive experience of high-profile investigations.

"This isn't a major breakthrough. This is a significant piece of information about three individuals who need to be eliminated (from police investigations)," Mark Williams Thomas, who has won awards for his investigative reporting, said Tuesday.

"Burglars don't abduct children," Mr Thomas said. "Child abusers abduct, paedophiles abduct, but if you are in an area burglarising a house looking for items you are not looking to take a child. In terms of who these individuals are, they are likely to be questioned about what they may have seen as witnesses," he said.

"I doubt very much they will be viewed as suspects," Mr Thomas said. "To call them 'suspects' at this point is overplaying it by far."
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Late Monday, several media outlets in the United Kingdom, including the Guardian and Daily Mirror, citing an unidentified spokesman for Kate and Gerry McCann -- Madeleine's parents -- reported that police in Portugal were ready to arrest and interview "key suspects" connected to alleged robberies in the area where the then 3-year-old Madeleine was taken in the case that has captivated global attention for years.

British investigators, who last year re-launched their own investigation into Madeleine's 2007 disappearance from a resort in Portugal, confirmed Monday they sent a letter of request to Portuguese authorities but would not elaborate on its contents.

Two of the burglaries took place in April 2007 in the apartment block where the McCann family was staying, ABC reported from London. In both of the April burglaries, entry was gained via a window. One theory is that Madeleine was also abducted after access to the family's vacation rental was gained through a window.

However, Mr Thomas, who as a police officer specialised in child protection cases, said Tuesday, "These individuals may have information but as far as a breakthrough? No." More importantly, he said, they need to be ruled out.

"What happens now is very much down to what the authorities in Portugal decide to do next," he said.



www.smh.com.au/world/expert-downplays-pending-arrests-in-madeleine-mccann-case-20140115-hv8kb.html
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 04:48:12 AM by Mr Moderator »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

icabodcrane

  • Guest
Re: Madeleine McCann...burglars don't steal children but do they??
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2014, 02:04:00 AM »
Expert downplays pending arrests in Madeleine case

Mark Williams-Thomes, "Burglars don't abduct children!"


www.smh.com.au/world/expert-downplays-pending-arrests-in-madeleine-mccann-case-20140115-hv8kb.html

We don't really need  'experts'   to tell us what we already know,  do we  ? 

Burglars  'burgle'

Child abductors  'abduct' 

The interchanging of the two,  as though such interchanging was a logical assumption to make,   is more  than baffling  ...  it's nonsense

In propaganda terminology it is refered to as  false syllogism

Offline colombosstogey

Re: Madeleine McCann...burglars don't steal children but do they??
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2014, 07:14:26 AM »
Absolutely and in spite of having been requested to support that claim, the believers chose to ignore it and go on spreading the myth.

Now heres a thing.

Mrs Fenn allegedly said she disturbed a burglar in her flat just before the McCanns arrived on holiday.

Carol Tranmer came to Portugal to look at property. Now IF she knew her aunt had been visited by a burglar wouldnt you think she would STAY WITH HER aunt in the flat to make sure she was safe, rather then stay somewhere else? Staying in PDL would not have put her off her search for property...

I find it very ODD she did not do so, or mention it....

I think ALL these burglaries, are just a load of Who Shot John.

Even the guy on the interview with Eamonn Holmes looked surprised about all the burglaries......

Like I have said before they are pretty rare in residential areas....

PDL must be one of the unluckiest places on the planet for burlgaries......

I live in a town with known druggeys about and the only things that get stolen, are bikes, and stuff out of cars, and occasionally someone gets into a house or garden shed, but its not an everyday occurrence and we dont even have a police station now lol....just rely on Neighbourhood Watch.

Offline Eleanor

Re: Madeleine McCann...burglars don't steal children but do they??
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2014, 09:10:49 AM »
We don't really need  'experts'   to tell us what we already know,  do we  ? 

Burglars  'burgle'

Child abductors  'abduct' 

The interchanging of the two,  as though such interchanging was a logical assumption to make,   is more  than baffling  ...  it's nonsense

In propaganda terminology it is refered to as  false syllogism

Don't be silly.  Burglars will steal anything if the price is right.  And who better able to break in to anywhere?

Offline j.rob

Re: Madeleine McCann...burglars don't steal children but do they??
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2014, 10:48:26 AM »
I am hoping that the police are loosely using the word 'burglars' to cover a host of circumstances. While I firmly believe that the McCanns and their friends know what happened to Madeleine and were complicit it it, it is not impossible that other people were involved. I think they had a maximum of 48 hours in which to line their ducks in a row. While involving other people is risky, it could have the advantage of setting up a few patsies, in the event that the plan unravels. Those who are already known criminals, for instance, might come in handy for all sorts of reasons.

We have already seen how the MCanns distance themselves from any responsibility for what happened that night. 'If there was an accident and she died....why would that be our fault' are not exactly the words of a responsible parent. It may be there were other people around in the (criminal) world who were able and willing to assist - for a price of course. Covering up a disappearance/accident/death and promoting an abduction theory with all of the logistics that go with it is not a one-man job.

The unknown bogey-man who steals children from their beds at night is a powerful when they have been tucked up safe and sound is a deeply evocative figure and strikes fear into many a parent's heart.

But he is largely a mythical figure, best left to folklore and fairy tales.

Offline jassi

Re: Madeleine McCann...burglars don't steal children but do they??
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2014, 11:10:48 AM »
Don't be silly. Burglars will steal anything if the price is right. And who better able to break in to anywhere?

I don't think they would steal a small child on spec, though. They would want a buyer in advance, which would take a certain amount of forward planning.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Eleanor

Re: Madeleine McCann...burglars don't steal children but do they??
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2014, 11:29:52 AM »
I don't think they would steal a small child on spec, though. They would want a buyer in advance, which would take a certain amount of forward planning.

Precisely.  But ideal for the job once they had a buyer, or had been approached.  They break in, pick thing up and then sell them on. Some of them wouldn't care if it was a child.  And much more lucrative of course.

Cariad

  • Guest
Re: Madeleine McCann...burglars don't steal children but do they??
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2014, 11:50:27 AM »
I am hoping that the police are loosely using the word 'burglars' to cover a host of circumstances. While I firmly believe that the McCanns and their friends know what happened to Madeleine and were complicit it it, it is not impossible that other people were involved. I think they had a maximum of 48 hours in which to line their ducks in a row. While involving other people is risky, it could have the advantage of setting up a few patsies, in the event that the plan unravels. Those who are already known criminals, for instance, might come in handy for all sorts of reasons.

We have already seen how the MCanns distance themselves from any responsibility for what happened that night. 'If there was an accident and she died....why would that be our fault' are not exactly the words of a responsible parent. It may be there were other people around in the (criminal) world who were able and willing to assist - for a price of course. Covering up a disappearance/accident/death and promoting an abduction theory with all of the logistics that go with it is not a one-man job.

The unknown bogey-man who steals children from their beds at night is a powerful when they have been tucked up safe and sound is a deeply evocative figure and strikes fear into many a parent's heart.

But he is largely a mythical figure, best left to folklore and fairy tales.

The problem with this is that the more people who know, the less chance there is of keeping it secret.

Also, do Doctors have criminal connections?

I think that any big conspiracy would've fallen to pieces by now. The only way you could trust someone to keep their mouth shut is if they had just as much to lose as you. This raises problems with the tapas 7 too of course. The only involvement I can really imagine for them is fabricating a checking system that never took place.

I think it's highly significant the Matthew Oldfields 9.30 check has been dropped since crime watch. 

Estuarine

  • Guest
Re: Madeleine McCann...burglars don't steal children but do they??
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2014, 01:35:38 PM »
I don't think they would steal a small child on spec, though. They would want a buyer in advance, which would take a certain amount of forward planning.

Agree totally. Burglars in those sort of places (holiday resorts) are usually semi pros or enthusiastic amateurs who are doing it for a living. Very few burglars are caught because they don't take too many risks. They are after goods that can be nicked and shifted easily then just as easily converted to folding stuff. The notion of nicking a kid or a Van Gogh on spec is beyond belief.
If it is done to order it needs more than a few days planning.

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Madeleine McCann...burglars don't steal children but do they??
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2014, 04:41:31 PM »
No one has come up with any precedent that a disturbed burglary turned into a child abduction.....

Offline jassi

Re: Madeleine McCann...burglars don't steal children but do they??
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2014, 04:46:28 PM »
Just fantasy land, where someone has introduced the idea as a satisfactory way of explaining the open window
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Estuarine

  • Guest
Re: Madeleine McCann...burglars don't steal children but do they??
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2014, 04:48:35 PM »
No one has come up with any precedent that a disturbed burglary turned into a child abduction.....


Maybe there isn't one  @)(++(*

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Madeleine McCann...burglars don't steal children but do they??
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2014, 05:03:36 PM »

Maybe there isn't one  @)(++(*

Well quite!


Just fantasy land, where someone has introduced the idea as a satisfactory way of explaining the open window

Even without an open window shutter etc, the idea has no legs to stand on IMO,no evidence, no precedent,no logic...but thats not surprising, just more straw clutching

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Madeleine McCann...burglars don't steal children but do they??
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2014, 05:51:30 PM »
No one has come up with any precedent that a disturbed burglary turned into a child abduction.....

Not exactly.

However, I just want to return to some of Heriberto Janosch's ideas for a moment because I think they deserve elaboration.

As far as I understand the material he linked for us, it demonstrates how many crimes come to be miscategorised. That miscategorisation skews the statistics and gives us false pictures of how criminals of various descriptions actually operate.

Consider this hypothetical scenario similar to some of those in the academic papers Heriberto references: A woman, sleeping alone, wakes in the night to find a stranger walking though her home. He enters her bedroom and sexually assaults her. He then knocks her out, pocketing some some expensive jewelry she has left lying on her dressing table by the window, and leaves.

When the woman comes to, she reports the incident to the police:  the breaking an entering; the assualts; the missing jewelry. But how specifically does she present events to the police? A burglar raped me?  A rapist stole my jewelry?

It's hard to say which was which. Many rapes take place in homes, the would-be attacker having stalked his target , finally entering the victim's private property when he knows she'll be alone. Now who's to say such a man would not also think of lifting something small and portable of value, like jewellery or cash, given the opportunity and if he was very hard up?

How would we classify that event? The man is not a burglar as we understand the term, yet he did enter a property illegally and steal. On the other hand, he's not a rapist plain and simple as he has committed other major crimes as well.

Alternatively, the intruder could have been a professional burglar who had spied on the woman's property, noting that she often left jewelry lying out. When he entered the property and began to take things, his sense of power overcame him and he decided to overwhelm her physically as well.

Going back to Heriberto Janosch, his material is explaining that the crime statistics that are compiled with regard to such events are problematic. Sometimes the above event could be recorded as a rape, sometimes as a burglary, and sometimes both. Depending on the exact circumstances of such a case, it may or may not be easy for police or victims to determine exactly the motive or purpose of the crimes. Are the direction of the police investigations in these cases prejudiced according to common and sometimes outdated conceptions of burglars, rapists - or not?

But regardless of how things are reported, investigated and categorised in each individual case, taking these cases a whole there is a recognition in psychology that the the criminal can be flexible. A 'burglar', in other words, could be a 'rapist', sometimes at the scene of the same crime and sometimes separately. (He may steal from a property, for example, on a given occasion, and also intend to rape someone in the home, but leave before doing so having been disturbed, and vice versa).

This is only one crude example that I am citing; there are obviously many others involving all different types of crime. But the point is that criminals are 'flexible'.

Whoever first used the phrase 'burglary gone wrong' in the Madeleine case has created a great deal of confusion, because that phrase implies a cat burglar entering a property for credit cards or cash and leaving with the daughter instead.

That is obviously a ridiculous idea, and absolutely not what Heriberto and others have in mind.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 05:54:45 PM by Sherlock Holmes »

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Madeleine McCann...burglars don't steal children but do they??
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2014, 06:01:19 PM »
Not exactly.

However, I just want to return to some of Heriberto Janosch's ideas for a moment because I think they deserve elaboration.

As far as I understand the material he linked for us, it demonstrates how many crimes come to be miscategorised. That miscategorisation skews the statistics and gives us false pictures of how criminals of various descriptions actually operate.

Consider this hypothetical scenario similar to some of those in the academic papers Heriberto references: A woman, sleeping alone, wakes in the night to find a stranger walking though her home. He enters her bedroom and sexually assaults her. He then knocks her out, pocketing some some expensive jewelry she has left lying on her dressing table by the window, and leaves.

When the woman comes to, she reports the incident to the police:  the breaking an entering; the assualts; the missing jewelry. But how specifically does she present events to the police? A burglar raped me?  A rapist stole my jewelry?

It's hard to say which was which. Many rapes take place in homes, the would-be attacker having stalked his target , finally entering the victim's private property when he knows she'll be alone. Now who's to say such a man would not also think of lifting something small and portable of value, like jewellery or cash, given the opportunity and if he was very hard up?

How would we classify that event? The man is not a burglar as we understand the term, yet he did enter a property illegally and steal. On the other hand, he's not a rapist plain and simple as he has committed other major crimes as well.

Alternatively, the intruder could have been a professional burglar who had spied on the woman's property, noting that she often left jewelry lying out. When he entered the property and began to take things, his sense of power overcame him and he decided to overwhelm her physically as well.

Going back to Heriberto Janosch, his material is explaining that the crime statistics that are compiled with regard to such events are problematic. Sometimes the above event could be recorded as a rape, sometimes as a burglary, and sometimes both. Depending on the exact circumstances of such a case, it may or may not be easy for police or victims to determine exactly the motive or purpose of the crimes. Are the direction of the police investigations in these cases prejudiced according to common and sometimes outdated conceptions of burglars, rapists - or not?

But regardless of how things are reported, investigated and categorised in each individual case, taking these cases a whole there is a recognition in psychology that the the criminal can be flexible. A 'burglar', in other words, could be a 'rapist', sometimes at the scene of the same crime and sometimes separately. (He may steal from a property, for example, on a given occasion, and also intend to rape someone in the home, but leave before doing so having been disturbed, and vice versa).

This is only one crude example that I am citing; there are obviously many others involving all different types of crime. But the point is that criminals are 'flexible'.

Whoever first used the phrase 'burglary gone wrong' in the Madeleine case has created a great deal of confusion, because that phrase implies a cat burglar entering a property for credit cards or cash and leaving with the daughter instead.

That is obviously a ridiculous idea, and absolutely not what Heriberto and others have in mind.

None of these involved abduction though did they of adults or children? I dare say if someone reported a burglary and their child was stolen  it would be reported and documented