UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => The Disappearance of Portuguese youngster Joana Cipriano (8) from the village of Figueira, near Portimão, Algarve, on 12 September 2004. => Topic started by: carlymichelle on October 22, 2018, 02:19:25 PM
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Didnt her mother kill her???
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Didnt her mother kill her???
Both the mother and the uncle separately confessed to killing Joana but early on the police were desperate to find the child and that is why they did what they did to them out of sheer exasperation. One has to remember that at that point the child could have been injured and dying so urgency was needed. What the police did was unethical but necessary imo. And before anyone shouts police brutality I must point out that this happens in every country in the world to a greater or lesser extent.
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Both the mother and the uncle separately confessed to killing Joana but early on the police were desperate to find the child and that is why they did what they did to them out of sheer exasperation. One has to remember that at that point the child could have been injured and dying so urgency was needed. What the police did was unethical but necessary imo. And before anyone shouts police brutality I must point out that this happens in every country in the world to a greater or lesser extent.
Joana disappeared on 12th September. How many days had lapsed during which she could have been injured & dying before Leonor & Joao were tortured to ascertain where Joana was? Even to the uninitiated of Portuguese police methods, your excuse for their actions seems rather "frivolous" IMO.
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didnt her mother kill her???
She was convicted for it in a country where the legal system rules that information obtained under duress is inadmissible.
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Joana disappeared on 12th September. How many days had lapsed during which she could have been injured & dying before Leonor & Joao were tortured to ascertain where Joana was? Even to the uninitiated of Portuguese police methods, your excuse for their actions seems rather "frivolous" IMO.
Amaral sued Correia regarding the torture of cipriano claiming she, was tortured to extract a confession... Amaral never challenged this claim
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Joana disappeared on 12th September. How many days had lapsed during which she could have been injured & dying before Leonor & Joao were tortured to ascertain where Joana was? Even to the uninitiated of Portuguese police methods, your excuse for their actions seems rather "frivolous" IMO.
your excuse for their actions seems rather "frivolous" IMO.
What are you on about here..............
Portuguese police methods........
At least they are still alive............
People die here in uk police custody ..........frequently.......
for far less.............imo
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I was totally gobsmacked when I was finally able to read the initial judgement (which picks up on points in the investigation) and the initial trial. That it ever came to court is beyond my comprehension, whether the mother and / or brother are in fact guilty of some action that resulted in her (as yet unproven) death or not.
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I'm not disputing the fact that evidence obtained under duress is inadmissible. My concern is that people can be browbeaten, or threatened, into denying it, just as some will falsely claim duress. There were no CCTV recordings of interrogations back then (a recommendation for audio recordings of arguido interviews was only introduced many years later), and would therefore be difficult to establish either way, unless medical treatment were sought.
I can think of at least two key moments (aside from the "slippery stairs" incident) involving the police in which CCTV recordings would have been useful. One concerns what actually transpired during Leonor's first detention and the conditions under which she was held; the other concerns the circumstances leading up to João's "chopping-up" "confession".
I have suspicions about both, but have found no way of verifying them either way. Nor have I been able to ascertain whether their legal counsel ever did either.
A third involves a certain lawyer who freely admitted bluffing João into believing that other convicts were going to kill him unless João agreed to a confession.
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I'm not disputing the fact that evidence obtained under duress is inadmissible. My concern is that people can be browbeaten, or threatened, into denying it, just as some will falsely claim duress. There were no CCTV recordings of interrogations back then (a recommendation for audio recordings of arguido interviews was only introduced many years later), and would therefore be difficult to establish either way, unless medical treatment were sought.
I can think of at least two key moments (aside from the "slippery stairs" incident) involving the police in which CCTV recordings would have been useful. One concerns what actually transpired during Leonor's first detention and the conditions under which she was held; the other concerns the circumstances leading up to João's "chopping-up" "confession".
I have suspicions about both, but have found no way of verifying them either way. Nor have I been able to ascertain whether their legal counsel ever did either.
A third involves a certain lawyer who freely admitted bluffing João into believing that other convicts were going to kill him unless João agreed to a confession.
"If you have evidence the codes were not adhered to let's see it".
It would appear there is no evidence then. Just suspicion based on hearsay.
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"If you have evidence the codes were not adhered to let's see it".
It would appear there is no evidence then. Just suspicion based on hearsay.
Did the defendant ever claim to have been tortured?
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Did the defendant ever claim to have been tortured?
Are you talking about Leonor ?
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Are you talking about Leonor ?
The one who was charged. Did she claim to being tortured?
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"If you have evidence the codes were not adhered to let's see it".
It would appear there is no evidence then. Just suspicion based on hearsay.
I'm not sure where to look for evidence.
Re the Leonor issue: I couldn't find anything apart from a CdaM article stating that Leonor had been seen late at night after her interrogation, pending her arraignment the following morning. I did find a vague reference to blood on a seat, from memory in one of the judgements, but which didn't appear to have been investigated, apart from having been attriuted to "menstrual blood". I could hunt back to find where I already pointed that out, but it would take time. That explanation could be true, or might not be. Even if it is, the question that it raised for me was what her detention conditions over that interrogation period actually were. It's not clear for how much time she had a lawyer present, aside from signing on the dotted line.
Re the João issue: in an in-depth interview with Leandro (way before the Madeleine case) cf the sub-forum, Leandro found his behaviour odd that day (Leandro was present to provide the keys to the house). That could be because João was facing up to the enormity of what he had done, or it could equally be because he'd been threatened, beaten, or whatever, to coerce a confession. There's no way of knowing from what I've been able to find in what's readily online.
In this case, the case files aren't online, only the judgements and - largely - CdaM tabloid articles to go on.
As I've mentioned numerous times before (on the sub-forum), I've come across assertions in the judgements that left me wondering whether I was on a different planet. For example, unless I've misunderstood, it could be taken as fact that as most kids return home, she therefore did as well.
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Did the defendant ever claim to have been tortured?
She was taken from a day of "non-formal" interviews at the police station to hospital.
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The one who was charged. Did she claim to being tortured?
Yes
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I'm not sure where to look for evidence.
Re the Leonor issue: I couldn't find anything apart from a CdaM article stating that Leonor had been seen late at night after her interrogation, pending her arraignment the following morning. I did find a vague reference to blood on a seat, from memory in one of the judgements, but which didn't appear to have been investigated, apart from having been attriuted to "menstrual blood". I could hunt back to find where I already pointed that out, but it would take time. That explanation could be true, or might not be. Even if it is, the question that it raised for me was what her detention conditions over that interrogation period actually were. It's not clear for how much time she had a lawyer present, aside from signing on the dotted line.
Re the João issue: in an in-depth interview with Leandro (way before the Madeleine case) cf the sub-forum, Leandro found his behaviour odd that day (Leandro was present to provide the keys to the house). That could be because João was facing up to the enormity of what he had done, or it could equally be because he'd been threatened, beaten, or whatever, to coerce a confession. There's no way of knowing from what I've been able to find in what's readily online.
In this case, the case files aren't online, only the judgements and - largely - CdaM tabloid articles to go on.
As I've mentioned numerous times before (on the sub-forum), I've come across assertions in the judgements that left me wondering whether I was on a different planet. For example, unless I've misunderstood, it could be taken as fact that as most kids return home, she therefore did as well.
And there was absolutely no proof that Joana did return home, but a strange camper van with a man in it that had been there a couple of days. This vanished as Joana did. According to reports it was found abandoned in nearby Praia de Luz, which was only 7 miles away.
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And there was absolutely no proof that Joana did return home, but a strange camper van with a man in it that had been there a couple of days. This vanished as Joana did. According to reports it was found abandoned in nearby Praia de Luz, which was only 7 miles away.
Please provide cites.
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Please provide cites.
Cites:
Not in any particular order and not honed as i would have preferred for posting. I just haven't the energy
1) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8393.msg418844#msg418844
Three webpages I have mentioned in the above post supporting Leonor and Joana ... and NONE WILL OPEN
2) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9278.msg457613#msg457613
The above post already points out that I have noticed everything about the white and brown camper-van has been wiped, between posts 1) and 2)
3) Re: Portuguese judicial secrecy law and its impact on the Madeleine case.
« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2017, 05:41:37 PM » Posted by SIL
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Quote from: sadie on August 03, 2017, 04:36:26 PM
In the past 5 years I have only been in the Algarve for less than a fortnight total but I have been there twice!
BTW, the little brown camper van that was noticed in Figueira before Joana vanished, also vanished and was found dumped in Praia de Luz.
Of course everyone was aware of what happened in the Joana Cipriano case .... and how her mother was tortured to near blindness.
SIL Nope to part I have bolded. I had never heard of it until posters repeatedly dragged it onto this forum rather than the JC forum.
And believe it or not, not everyone has heard of the Madeleine McCann case.
We have holidayed in Portugal many a time, both before and after Madeleine's disappearance, but until we actually moved here, I could not have told you where Luz (Lagos) or Luz (Tavira) are. And since I have no interest in the Cipriano case, I don't know where Figueira is.
Strangely my original actual post, as in the quote above, has been wiped. Why is that ?
4) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1229.msg55566#msg55566
5) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6044.msg222976#msg222976.
Brietta quoting the family of Joana Cipriano, mentioning the camper van and its German registration. The man had short, curly brown hair and was about 40 years old. The van was found on farmland at Praia da Luz
6) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2853.msg98254#msg98254
Six cites there, slarti, none of which were challenged the veracity of the camper-van, until you came along !
And why were they never challenged? Because websites opened then that CONFIRMED what I WAS POSTING ... and people had read them
There are various excuses for why these websites no longer open, but I find it sinister.
Contrary to transparency and Justice.
By now you should know that I tell the truth. Twisting and lying is not for me.
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Cites:
Not in any particular order and not honed as i would have preferred for posting. I just haven't the energy
1) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8393.msg418844#msg418844
Three webpages I have mentioned in the above post supporting Leonor and Joana ... and NONE WILL OPEN
2) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9278.msg457613#msg457613
The above post already points out that I have noticed everything about the white and brown camper-van has been wiped, between posts 1) and 2)
3) Re: Portuguese judicial secrecy law and its impact on the Madeleine case.
« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2017, 05:41:37 PM » Posted by SIL
• Quote
Quote from: sadie on August 03, 2017, 04:36:26 PM
SIL
Strangely my original actual post, as in the quote above, has been wiped. Why is that ?
4) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1229.msg55566#msg55566
5) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6044.msg222976#msg222976.
Brietta quoting the family of Joana Cipriano, mentioning the camper van and its German registration. The man had short, curly brown hair and was about 40 years old. The van was found on farmland at Praia da Luz
6) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2853.msg98254#msg98254
Six cites there, slarti, none of which were challenged the veracity of the camper-van, until you came along !
And why were they never challenged? Because websites opened then that CONFIRMED what I WAS POSTING ... and people had read them
There are various excuses for why these websites no longer open, but I find it sinister.
Contrary to transparency and Justice.
By now you should know that I tell the truth. Twisting and lying is not for me.
So you have no cites, just links to where you and your colleagues mention this camper van.
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So you have no cites, just links to where you and your colleagues mention this camper van.
2:48pm UK, Monday May 12, 2008
ALEX WATTS, SKY NEWS ONLINE.
The family of a girl who vanished just seven miles from the Portuguese resort where Madeleine McCann disappeared are convinced the cases are connected. Joana was last seen near church
On the day of Madeleine's fifth birthday, Joana Cipriano's relatives have urged detectives to investigate links between the two disappearances - saying there are too many disturbing similarities for the evidence to be ignored.
Joana, eight, was sent to buy some groceries from a village store near her home in Figueira, at around 8pm on September 12, 2004. She bought a tin of tuna and some milk from the Ofelia store, and was last seen by a neighbour walking back near the village church, some 200 yards from her home. Joana never returned and, like the McCanns, her mother Leonor mounted a campaign to find her. Like them, she and her brother Joao became suspects.
The case, which ended with the pair being sentenced to 21 years, made Portuguese legal history - it was the first murder trial where a body was never found. Police officers are due to go on trial later this year for allegedly beating and torturing Leonor to make her confess. Joana's relatives told Sky News Online the pair are innocent and believe whoever took the girl is also behind Madeleine's disappearance, seven miles away in Praia da Luz. The family, who do not want to be named, said: "This sort of thing doesn't happen in Portugal - child abductions are very rare. Whoever took Joana took Madeleine too, the distance is too small. And the police ignored everything we told them, they just wanted to solve the case quickly. They didn't look at any of the things we told them about." They said the most crucial bit of evidence was a white and brown camper van, parked near Joana's home in the days before she was abducted.
The vehicle, with German number plates, disappeared around the time she vanished. They added: "There was a man living in there, but he hardly left the van. A week later the van was found abandoned in farmland in Praia da Luz. We told the police to investigate it, but they didn't listen to us." She said the man had short, curly brown hair and was about 40 years old. A suspect in the Madeleine case, spotted acting suspiciously near the apartment where she vanished on May 3 last year, was described as between 35 and 40, with long, straggly hair.
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2:48pm UK, Monday May 12, 2008
ALEX WATTS, SKY NEWS ONLINE.
The family of a girl who vanished just seven miles from the Portuguese resort where Madeleine McCann disappeared are convinced the cases are connected. Joana was last seen near church
On the day of Madeleine's fifth birthday, Joana Cipriano's relatives have urged detectives to investigate links between the two disappearances - saying there are too many disturbing similarities for the evidence to be ignored.
Joana, eight, was sent to buy some groceries from a village store near her home in Figueira, at around 8pm on September 12, 2004. She bought a tin of tuna and some milk from the Ofelia store, and was last seen by a neighbour walking back near the village church, some 200 yards from her home. Joana never returned and, like the McCanns, her mother Leonor mounted a campaign to find her. Like them, she and her brother Joao became suspects.
The case, which ended with the pair being sentenced to 21 years, made Portuguese legal history - it was the first murder trial where a body was never found. Police officers are due to go on trial later this year for allegedly beating and torturing Leonor to make her confess. Joana's relatives told Sky News Online the pair are innocent and believe whoever took the girl is also behind Madeleine's disappearance, seven miles away in Praia da Luz. The family, who do not want to be named, said: "This sort of thing doesn't happen in Portugal - child abductions are very rare. Whoever took Joana took Madeleine too, the distance is too small. And the police ignored everything we told them, they just wanted to solve the case quickly. They didn't look at any of the things we told them about." They said the most crucial bit of evidence was a white and brown camper van, parked near Joana's home in the days before she was abducted.
The vehicle, with German number plates, disappeared around the time she vanished. They added: "There was a man living in there, but he hardly left the van. A week later the van was found abandoned in farmland in Praia da Luz. We told the police to investigate it, but they didn't listen to us." She said the man had short, curly brown hair and was about 40 years old. A suspect in the Madeleine case, spotted acting suspiciously near the apartment where she vanished on May 3 last year, was described as between 35 and 40, with long, straggly hair.
Interesting misty. Do you have an actual link to the story?
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Interesting misty. Do you have an actual link to the story?
The original no longer seems to be online. I copied it from a post here:- https://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=178077&page=11
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So you have no cites, just links to where you and your colleagues mention this camper van.
Quite often there is nothing left of the original article as you yourself noted when explaining the situation to Sadie ...
Quote
Your understanding of how the internet works is lacking. It is a volatile environment, when a site has a tidy up they will remove pages and areas that have not been accessed for a while or are in their minds no longer required. Sites are removed on a regular basis, people have to pay for web hosting and will not continue to do so just for the benefit of other users.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7275.msg498452#msg498452
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The original no longer seems to be online. I copied it from a post here:- https://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=178077&page=11
There is a myriad of information which has vanished from the internet to be preserved either in archives of some kind or copied from the original to blogs much as "Gerry McCann's Blog" was erased by the owner but preserved for posterity by Pamalam.
Newspaper and News Channels also erase a lot ... we are all familiar with 401 etc.
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So you have no cites, just links to where you and your colleagues mention this camper van.
I have taken a lot of time and sorted out 6 samples of where the camper-van was mentioned in posts in various places on this forum. No-one ever questioned their veracity at the various times, because they had seen a number of articles mentioning the camper van near Joanas home. And they knew what i was saying had been well reported. Same articles, now, in a sinister way IMO deleted.
Anyway, Misty bless her, has found the same suitable cite for you, number 5 on my list, and she managed to find the source. Thank you misty.
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There is a myriad of information which has vanished from the internet to be preserved either in archives of some kind or copied from the original to blogs much as "Gerry McCann's Blog" was erased by the owner but preserved for posterity by Pamalam.
Newspaper and News Channels also erase a lot ... we are all familiar with 401 etc.
The internet isn't as reliable as it was made out to be by all accounts. It's a bit like rewriting history imo.
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2:48pm UK, Monday May 12, 2008
ALEX WATTS, SKY NEWS ONLINE.
The family of a girl who vanished just seven miles from the Portuguese resort where Madeleine McCann disappeared are convinced the cases are connected. Joana was last seen near church
On the day of Madeleine's fifth birthday, Joana Cipriano's relatives have urged detectives to investigate links between the two disappearances - saying there are too many disturbing similarities for the evidence to be ignored.
Joana, eight, was sent to buy some groceries from a village store near her home in Figueira, at around 8pm on September 12, 2004. She bought a tin of tuna and some milk from the Ofelia store, and was last seen by a neighbour walking back near the village church, some 200 yards from her home. Joana never returned and, like the McCanns, her mother Leonor mounted a campaign to find her. Like them, she and her brother Joao became suspects.
The case, which ended with the pair being sentenced to 21 years, made Portuguese legal history - it was the first murder trial where a body was never found. Police officers are due to go on trial later this year for allegedly beating and torturing Leonor to make her confess. Joana's relatives told Sky News Online the pair are innocent and believe whoever took the girl is also behind Madeleine's disappearance, seven miles away in Praia da Luz. The family, who do not want to be named, said: "This sort of thing doesn't happen in Portugal - child abductions are very rare. Whoever took Joana took Madeleine too, the distance is too small. And the police ignored everything we told them, they just wanted to solve the case quickly. They didn't look at any of the things we told them about." They said the most crucial bit of evidence was a white and brown camper van, parked near Joana's home in the days before she was abducted.
The vehicle, with German number plates, disappeared around the time she vanished. They added: "There was a man living in there, but he hardly left the van. A week later the van was found abandoned in farmland in Praia da Luz. We told the police to investigate it, but they didn't listen to us." She said the man had short, curly brown hair and was about 40 years old. A suspect in the Madeleine case, spotted acting suspiciously near the apartment where she vanished on May 3 last year, was described as between 35 and 40, with long, straggly hair.
Yes, I found that...
“Joana's relatives told Sky News Online .... The family, who do not want to be named”
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Yes, I found that...
“Joana's relatives told Sky News Online .... The family, who do not want to be named”
Don't know about you ... but I have many relatives ... if any spoke to the press and didn't wish their name mentioned ... how would I or anyone else know who that anonymous person might be?
I don't think it is quite as risible as you seem to think.
I imagine that like me, the Ciprianos had an extended family not all of whom even share the same family name.
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Don't know about you ... but I have many relatives ... if any spoke to the press and didn't wish their name mentioned ... how would I or anyone else know who that anonymous person might be?
I don't think it is quite as risible as you seem to think.
I imagine that like me, the Ciprianos had an extended family not all of whom even share the same family name.
You missed the point, the family of the defendant originated the story of the Camper Van.
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Yes, I found that...
“Joana's relatives told Sky News Online .... The family, who do not want to be named”
Various reports were in a number of places before they were wiped. And many on here will have seen them.
The family have every right to report what they saw, and to keep their names out of the papers.
They may not have the same surname as Cipriano or Guereira ( Joanas blood fathers name, IIRC) or Silva .... and prefer not to be associated in the publics eye with the dreadful things, not proven, pumped out about their relatives Leonor and Joao Cipriano.
Being aware of the way that the local PJ operate, they probably would be in fear of the Police knowing that they had released the facts about the van.
How do you think Amaral and Cristovao would have reacted to having their erm..carefully sorted theory undermined ?
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You missed the point, the family of the defendant originated the story of the Camper Van.
So? They were witnesses to it.
Despite it being brought to the publics knowledge, did you ever see anyone say that they were lying ?
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So? They were witnesses to it.
Despite it being brought to the publics knowledge, did you ever see anyone say that they were lying ?
Why shouldn't they report it, if they felt the PJ were ignoring it ? Ignoring it in order to drop the blame on Leonor and Joao?
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So? They were witnesses to it.
Despite it being brought to the publics knowledge, did you ever see anyone say that they were lying ?
You make an assumption that they were telling the truth.
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Various reports were in a number of places before they were wiped. And many on here will have seen them.
The family have every right to report what they saw, and to keep their names out of the papers.
They may not have the same surname as Cipriano or Guereira ( Joanas blood fathers name, IIRC) or Silva .... and prefer not to be associated in the publics eye with the dreadful things, not proven, pumped out about their relatives Leonor and Joao Cipriano.
Being aware of the way that the local PJ operate, they probably would be in fear of the Police knowing that they had released the facts about the van.
How do you think Amaral and Cristovao would have reacted to having their erm..carefully sorted theory undermined ?
Hogwash Sadie. When will you ever accept the reality that the Cipriano duo are guilty by their own free admission? Continually inventing excuses for this miserable pair does your own credibility no favours imo.
The accepted fact that Leonor was beaten around the head with a large cardboard tube or that João Cipriano was roughed up a bit is neither here nor there. It makes no difference to the confessions.
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Hogwash Sadie. When will you ever accept the reality that the Cipriano duo are guilty by their own free admission? Continually inventing excuses for this miserable pair does your own credibility no favours imo.
Nothing Free about it.
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2:48pm UK, Monday May 12, 2008
ALEX WATTS, SKY NEWS ONLINE.
The family of a girl who vanished just seven miles from the Portuguese resort where Madeleine McCann disappeared are convinced the cases are connected. Joana was last seen near church
On the day of Madeleine's fifth birthday, Joana Cipriano's relatives have urged detectives to investigate links between the two disappearances - saying there are too many disturbing similarities for the evidence to be ignored.
Joana, eight, was sent to buy some groceries from a village store near her home in Figueira, at around 8pm on September 12, 2004. She bought a tin of tuna and some milk from the Ofelia store, and was last seen by a neighbour walking back near the village church, some 200 yards from her home. Joana never returned and, like the McCanns, her mother Leonor mounted a campaign to find her. Like them, she and her brother Joao became suspects.
The case, which ended with the pair being sentenced to 21 years, made Portuguese legal history - it was the first murder trial where a body was never found. Police officers are due to go on trial later this year for allegedly beating and torturing Leonor to make her confess. Joana's relatives told Sky News Online the pair are innocent and believe whoever took the girl is also behind Madeleine's disappearance, seven miles away in Praia da Luz. The family, who do not want to be named, said: "This sort of thing doesn't happen in Portugal - child abductions are very rare. Whoever took Joana took Madeleine too, the distance is too small. And the police ignored everything we told them, they just wanted to solve the case quickly. They didn't look at any of the things we told them about." They said the most crucial bit of evidence was a white and brown camper van, parked near Joana's home in the days before she was abducted.
The vehicle, with German number plates, disappeared around the time she vanished. They added: "There was a man living in there, but he hardly left the van. A week later the van was found abandoned in farmland in Praia da Luz. We told the police to investigate it, but they didn't listen to us." She said the man had short, curly brown hair and was about 40 years old. A suspect in the Madeleine case, spotted acting suspiciously near the apartment where she vanished on May 3 last year, was described as between 35 and 40, with long, straggly hair.
A bit slow on the uptake there imo.
53 weeks plus to catch on is hardly the speed of greased lightning is it?
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Nothing Free about it.
She sent a letter via her lawyer admitting her part in it. If that isn't free I give up. To clarify, João admitted killing the girl and Leonor admitted to being culpable in the ruse which followed. The only thing I personally disagree with was the sentencing. He should have got 20+ years for murder given that he had already served a sentence for attempted murder but the mother should have got less than 10 years and been paroled mid way. Had she not lied at the beginning she would be a free woman by now but she did it to protect her monster of a brother. None of this is Amaral's fault by the way, he did a good job in putting these two away.
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She sent a letter via her lawyer admitting her part in it. If that isn't free I give up. To clarify, João admitted killing the girl and Leonor admitted to being culpable in the ruse which followed. The only thing I personally disagree with was the sentencing. He should have got 20+ years for murder given that he had already served a sentence for attempted murder but the mother should have got less than 10 years and been paroled mid way. Had she not lied at the beginning she would be a free woman by now but she did it to protect her monster of a brother. None of this is Amaral's fault by the way, he did a good job in putting these two away.
You have a Cite for this letter?
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She sent a letter via her lawyer admitting her part in it. If that isn't free I give up. To clarify, João admitted killing the girl and Leonor admitted to being culpable in the ruse which followed. The only thing I personally disagree with was the sentencing. He should have got 20+ years for murder given that he had already served a sentence for attempted murder but the mother should have got less than 10 years and been paroled mid way. Had she not lied at the beginning she would be a free woman by now but she did it to protect her mouth of a brother. None of this is Amaral's fault by the way, he did a good job in putting these two away.
Hmmm. That lawyer...
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She sent a letter via her lawyer admitting her part in it. If that isn't free I give up. To clarify, João admitted killing the girl and Leonor admitted to being culpable in the ruse which followed. The only thing I personally disagree with was the sentencing. He should have got 20+ years for murder given that he had already served a sentence for attempted murder but the mother should have got less than 10 years and been paroled mid way. Had she not lied at the beginning she would be a free woman by now but she did it to protect her mouth of a brother. None of this is Amaral's fault by the way, he did a good job in putting these two away.
i think based on the fact there is no real evidence againsrt her apart from the confession supposedly beaten out of her...she may well be innocent
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She sent a letter via her lawyer admitting her part in it. If that isn't free I give up. To clarify, João admitted killing the girl and Leonor admitted to being culpable in the ruse which followed. The only thing I personally disagree with was the sentencing. He should have got 20+ years for murder given that he had already served a sentence for attempted murder but the mother should have got less than 10 years and been paroled mid way. Had she not lied at the beginning she would be a free woman by now but she did it to protect her mouth of a brother. None of this is Amaral's fault by the way, he did a good job in putting these two away.
she was jailed for 20 yeras for a crime she may well not have committed. The only way she will be released early is to show remorse...admit to a crime she has not committed...there is your answer
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She sent a letter via her lawyer admitting her part in it. If that isn't free I give up. To clarify, João admitted killing the girl and Leonor admitted to being culpable in the ruse which followed. The only thing I personally disagree with was the sentencing. He should have got 20+ years for murder given that he had already served a sentence for attempted murder but the mother should have got less than 10 years and been paroled mid way. Had she not lied at the beginning she would be a free woman by now but she did it to protect her mouth of a brother. None of this is Amaral's fault by the way, he did a good job in putting these two away.
I never heard of this letter.
Could we have a cite please Angelo
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i think based on the fact there is no real evidence againsrt her apart from the confession supposedly beaten out of her...she may well be innocent
How do you know that?
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How do you know that?
because I read the trial details when they were available....because it was discussed at length...there was no real evidence....it was claimed there was blood on the walls and the fridge...none was tested.....yet the proven facts stated joannas blood was found in the fridge.....the portuguese seem to think proven facts dont actually have to be proven
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because I read the trial details when they were available....because it was discussed at length...there was no real evidence....it was claimed there was blood on the walls and the fridge...none was tested.....yet the proven facts stated joannas blood was found in the fridge.....the portuguese seem to think proven facts dont actually have to be proven
I suspect the fact that blood was found was enough. Although we can't even be sure of that.
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I suspect the fact that blood was found was enough. Although we can't even be sure of that.
Enough for Amaral and Cristovao, but it shoukldn't have been enough for any self respecting Court. Why didn't Leonors lawyer, Joao Grade question that ? Why didn't he demand that the blood be properly tested ? It could even have been none human, such as pigs blood.
Why didn't Grade question that Leonor and Joao Cipriano had killed Joana based upon Amarals assertion that she had come across them having sex together. Nobody saw it....... No proof of that.
Why didn't Grade question Amarals assertion that Joana had been cut up and fed to the pigs. Nobody saw it....... No proof of that.
Why didn't Grade make more fuss about the Torturing of Leonor?
Why didn't Grade challenge ? ........................ I could go on
In fact, why was Joao Grade allowed in that Court after being found carrying drugs into prison ? Amaral was, of course, the head druugs cop in the Algarve region. Was he the one who let Grade off being charged fior that?
And Joao Grade and Amaral were buddies. Grade attended Amarals ?50th birthday bash and according to the media offered to train Amaral as a Lawyer.
Now was that a "CONFLICT OF INTERESTS " or not ?
I make absolutely no accusations, but think people should be aware of these things to weigh it up in their own minds
No wonder that one of the three judges refused to acknowledge the verdict.
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A bit slow on the uptake there imo.
53 weeks plus to catch on is hardly the speed of greased lightning is it?
Perhaps no-one in Portugal was interested in a case which had already been "solved"? There have been many reports of witnesses in the McCann case whose evidence was ignored by both the PJ & the Portuguese media as is was contrary to the narrative at the time.
All IMO.
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because I read the trial details when they were available....because it was discussed at length...there was no real evidence....it was claimed there was blood on the walls and the fridge...none was tested.....yet the proven facts stated joannas blood was found in the fridge.....the portuguese seem to think proven facts dont actually have to be proven
Which has already been stated, by another poster, was only what was printed in the tabloids and interpollations thereof.
Did you obtain the actual trial transcripts and have them translated?
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Which has already been stated, by another poster, was only what was printed in the tabloids and interpollations thereof.
Did you obtain the actual trial transcripts and have them translated?
Then the other poster is wrong....
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html?m=1
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2969.0
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Then the other poster is wrong....
Why did you not correct her at the time?
So I take it you did not have the court transcripts translated and are working from Portuguese tabloid reports you translated into Googlish.
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You have a Cite for this letter?
Your friend Marcos Aragão Correia drafted and delivered her letter clarifying what occurred.
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/01/translation-of-leonor-ciprianos.html?m=1
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/sitebuilderpictures/aragaojoanaconfession.jpg)
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I never heard of this letter.
Could we have a cite please Angelo
I seriously suggest you read up on that case again Sadie because this is basic stuff.
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Your friend Marcos Aragão Correia drafted and delivered her letter clarifying what occurred.
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/01/translation-of-leonor-ciprianos.html?m=1
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/sitebuilderpictures/aragaojoanaconfession.jpg)
What purpose do you think that alternative "confession" served during the trial of the PJ Inspectors?
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What purpose do you think that alternative "confession" served during the trial of the PJ Inspectors?
Leonor Cipriano was appealing her conviction so was trying to come clean as to what really happened. The judges didn't buy it though.
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Leonor Cipriano was appealing her conviction so was trying to come clean as to what really happened. The judges didn't buy it though.
I'm not quite understanding you. The new "confession" was delivered to the Faro court during the trial of the PJ Inspectors. How could it have affected any appeal she was making?
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Your friend Marcos Aragão Correia drafted and delivered her letter clarifying what occurred.
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/01/translation-of-leonor-ciprianos.html?m=1
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/sitebuilderpictures/aragaojoanaconfession.jpg)
This letter is not signed. How does it make Leonor a murderer?
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So you don’t accept the ruling of the Portuguese court then? Interesting...
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So you don’t accept the ruling of the Portuguese court then? Interesting...
One of The Judges didn't either.
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This letter is not signed. How does it make Leonor a murderer?
She claimed latterly in that letter to have been an accomplice after the event.
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She claimed latterly in that letter to have been an accomplice after the event.
So was Joana to be sold? Did Leonor agree to her being killed at the time? How did she become an accomplice after the event?
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i think based on the fact there is no real evidence againsrt her apart from the confession supposedly beaten out of her...she may well be innocent
As usual you have got things totally back to front. Leonor Cipriano confessed to 'accidentally' killing the child prior to being remanded in custody. She did so in an effort to protect her delinquent brother whom she knew would be locked up for a very long time if his involvement in that most unfortunate event were ever discovered.
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So was Joana to be sold? Did Leonor agree to her being killed at the time? How did she become an accomplice after the event?
I think you should read her letter.
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As usual you have got things totally back to front. Leonor Cipriano confessed to 'accidentally' killing the child prior to being remanded in custody. She did so in an effort to protect her delinquent brother whom she knew would be locked up for a very long time if his involvement in that most unfortunate event were ever discovered.
But surely, Leonor's brother killed Joana accidentally? If any of this tripe is to be believed.
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I think you should read her letter.
I did read her letter. And The Trial Transcript. Neither of which are even remotely related.
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As usual you have got things totally back to front. Leonor Cipriano confessed to 'accidentally' killing the child prior to being remanded in custody. She did so in an effort to protect her delinquent brother whom she knew would be locked up for a very long time if his involvement in that most unfortunate event were ever discovered.
It's claimed she confessed I've seen no real evidence she confessed until beaten.... There is also no real evidence to support the claims made by the prosecution. As I explained having been found guilty and given 20 yrs she cannot get parole unless she admits to the crime... Si she has no choice...
As I said... The prosecution claimed joannas blood was in the fridge... But the blood was never tested... I think there's a really strong chance she is innocent
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It's claimed she confessed I've seen no real evidence she confessed until beaten.... There is also no real evidence to support the claims made by the prosecution. As I explained having been found guilty and given 20 yrs she cannot get parole unless she admits to the crime... Si she has no choice...
As I said... The prosecution claimed joannas blood was in the fridge... But the blood was never tested... I think there's a really strong chance she is innocent
How could Joana's blood be in the fridge if she was killed elsewhere.
Another Badly Told Story.
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How could Joana's blood be in the fridge if she was killed elsewhere.
Another Badly Told Story.
According to the court she was dismembered and kept in the fridge..... Again... No evidence to support the claim
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But surely, Leonor's brother killed Joana accidentally? If any of this tripe is to be believed.
I believe he only admitted to disposing of the remains and that is what he was convicted of. Leonor for her part alleges he killed her when a trafficking deal went awry.
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It's claimed she confessed I've seen no real evidence she confessed until beaten.... There is also no real evidence to support the claims made by the prosecution. As I explained having been found guilty and given 20 yrs she cannot get parole unless she admits to the crime... Si she has no choice...
As I said... The prosecution claimed joannas blood was in the fridge... But the blood was never tested... I think there's a really strong chance she is innocent
Remember the "I hit her head off the kitchen door frame" admission by Leonor Cipriano...then again never mind as you're obviously out to obfuscate the facts.
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According to the court she was dismembered and kept in the fridge..... Again... No evidence to support the claim
Just the perpetrators videoed confession but hey ho, let's not let a minor detail like that get in the way.
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Remember the "I hit her head off the kitchen door frame" admission by Leonor Cipriano...then again never mind as you're obviously out to obfuscate the facts.
I know nothing about this case but wonder why the poster is being attacked as opposed to the post?
By a moderator I might add
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I know nothing about this case but wonder why the poster is being attacked as opposed to the post?
By a moderator I might add
Could the word obfuscate be a clue?
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Could the word obfuscate be a clue?
A clue to what, someone's ego?
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Could the word obfuscate be a clue?
I'm simply stating facts... Facts it seems you cannot counter
She was beaten badly... No real evidence to support the claims of the prosecution.
Her only way of getting out of prison is to admit to the crime and show remorse... So she has no choice... I'm quite convinced this is a misscarrige of justice
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Could the word obfuscate be a clue?
Perhaps as you know so much about the case you could list a couple of pieces of evidence
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I'm simply stating facts... Facts it seems you cannot counter
She was beaten badly... No real evidence to support the claims of the prosecution.
Her only way of getting out of prison is to admit to the crime and show remorse... So she has no choice... I'm quite convinced this is a misscarrige of justice
Do you have the medical report of her injuries after she was examined by a doctor?
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Perhaps as you know so much about the case you could list a couple of pieces of evidence
All been done previously. Leonor claimed to have killed the child accidentally and that is why she was remanded in custody. The torture came days later while she was in custody. I really think you need to brush up on the facts again.
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Do you have the medical report of her injuries after she was examined by a doctor?
Do hospitals give out that information on patients?
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Do you have the medical report of her injuries after she was examined by a doctor?
What I know is the PJ claimed she fell down the stairs... So they admit they were present when the injuries happened.... The court decided they were not telling the truth
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Do hospitals give out that information on patients?
Posters appear to think they have the details of the court case, you would assume it is mentioned there?
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What I know is the PJ claimed she fell down the stairs... So they admit they were present when the injuries happened.... The court decided they were not telling the truth
So no medical basis for the badly beaten up?
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Posters appear to think they have the details of the court case, you would assume it is mentioned there?
It was and it said her injuries were not consistent with falling down stairs
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So no medical basis for the badly beaten up?
The court accepted she had been beaten... The PJ admitted they were there when the injuries happened
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The court accepted she had been beaten... The PJ admitted they were there when the injuries happened
I have read a lot about this supposed beating last night and found nothing where any of the PJ admit they were there Davel. Do you have a cite for that?
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The court accepted she had been beaten... The PJ admitted they were there when the injuries happened
But no evidence.
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I have read a lot about this supposed beating last night and found nothing where any of the PJ admit they were there Davel. Do you have a cite for that?
You need to read my post a little more carefully... The PJ say her injuries, were caused when she threw herself down the stairs... So they admit they were there when the injuries happened... But he injuries were consistent with a beating
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But no evidence.
Her condition is proof she was injured... PJ claimed she fell down the stairs... Judge decided they were lying.
The court concluded that António Nunes Cardoso falsified a document, which reported the fall on the stairs of Leonor Cipriano. The sentence for Cardoso was aggravated, given his position as a police officer, "of whom is required to fight the crime."
From morais site
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/05/cirpriano-casepj-inspectors-accused-at.html?m=1
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You need to read my post a little more carefully... The PJ say her injuries, were caused when she threw herself down the stairs... So they admit they were there when the injuries happened... But he injuries were consistent with a beating
Davel I have read you post carefully. You were quite explicit IMO.
The court accepted she had been beaten... The PJ admitted they were there when the injuries happened
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Davel I have read you post carefully. You were quite explicit IMO.
The court accepted she had been beaten... The PJ admitted they were there when the injuries happened
The PJ said the injuries were caused by a fall down the stairs...they claimed to have witnessed it... Therefore they admit to being present when the injuries happened
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The PJ said the injuries were caused by a fall down the stairs...they claimed to have witnessed it... Therefore they admit to being present when the injuries happened
Where did they claim to have witnessed it? That is what I want the cite for Davel. I haven't seen anywhere, where it says this.
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Where did they claim to have witnessed it? That is what I want the cite for Davel. I haven't seen anywhere, where it says this.
This had all been gone over before... The PJ claimed she had thrown herself down the stairs in the PJ offices... How would
They know if they had not witnessed it...
Goncalo Amaral was found guilty of false testimony because he upheld, under oath - five months after the 'events' - the version that he had been given by his subordinates, i.e. that Leonor Cipriano had been injured when she tried to commit suicide by throwing herself over the railing of the stairs inside the PJ building in Faro.
From the link already provided
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This had all been gone over before... The PJ claimed she had thrown herself down the stairs in the PJ offices... How would
They know if they had not witnessed it...
Someone told them? Who is "they" by the way?
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Someone told them? Who is "they" by the way?
Who told them
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Who told them
You made the claim you back it up Davel.
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You made the claim you back it up Davel.
I already have
The defense’s version sustains that Leonor Cipriano confessed her will to commit suicide and that when she went to the toilet she threw herself off the stairs at the Polícia Judiciária in Faro.
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Nothing those who advocate for the Cipriano's can say will ever change the fact that they killed Joana in what can only be seen as a despicable crime. Even before the murder Joana was abandoned to strangers to care for while the mother went off with various men. It was only when Leandro Silva came latterly on the scene and took up with Leonora that the child attained some stability.
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Nothing those who advocate for the Cipriano's can say will ever change the fact that they killed Joana in what can only be seen as a despicable crime. Even before the murder Joana was abandoned to strangers to care for while the mother went off with various men. It was only when Leandro Silva came latterly on the scene and took up with Leonora that the child attained some stability.
I can say I think she is probably innocent.. And you haven't been able to give one piece of real evidence... Because there isn't any
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I can say I think she is probably innocent.. And you haven't been able to give one piece of real evidence... Because there isn't any
You can think whatever you like, it's your credibility at stake. I prefer to state the facts as recorded and they clearly show that she might not be guilty of murder but of a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice and perjury.
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I already have
The defense’s version sustains that Leonor Cipriano confessed her will to commit suicide and that when she went to the toilet she threw herself off the stairs at the Polícia Judiciária in Faro.
Maybe she did for all we know.
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Nothing those who advocate for the Cipriano's can say will ever change the fact that they killed Joana in what can only be seen as a despicable crime. Even before the murder Joana was abandoned to strangers to care for while the mother went off with various men. It was only when Leandro Silva came latterly on the scene and took up with Leonora that the child attained some stability.
Why are you so convinced there has been no miscarriage of justice in this case? Do you believe the evidence gathering and subsequent court case were above reproach?
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It never ceases to amaze how much interest this case attracts on the forum simply because of Gonçalo Amaral's involvement.
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It never ceases to amaze how much interest this case attracts on the forum simply because of Gonçalo Amaral's involvement.
It has very little to do with his involvement and everything to do with the way the case was handled, evidence (not) gatherered and evaluated and the treatment of the suspects and trial.
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It never ceases to amaze how much interest this case attracts on the forum simply because of Gonçalo Amaral's involvement.
Exactly John. If it hadn't been for his involvement we would not be sitting here discussing this.
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Exactly John. If it hadn't been for his involvement we would not be sitting here discussing this.
Nor would anyone give a toss for the Ciprianos.
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Nor would anyone give a toss for the Ciprianos.
We wouldn't have heard about them. I certainly don't give a toss about that murderous pair even now though.
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I think the fact that two young girls went missing without trace in a sparsely populated backwater of Portugal within a year or two of each other is more than a little noteworthy, again nothing to do with Amaral’s involvement.
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I think the fact that two young girls went missing without trace in a sparsely populated backwater of Portugal within a year or two of each other is more than a little noteworthy, again nothing to do with Amaral’s involvement.
So do you think the Ciprianos both independently and on several occasions admitted being involved in Joana's disappearance just for the hell of it? Or was Madeleine's disappearance 2½ years later merely an unfortunate coincidence?
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So do you think the Ciprianos both independently and on several occasions admitted being involved in Joana's disappearance just for the hell of it? Or was Madeleine's disappearance 2½ years later merely an unfortunate coincidence?
I think they were coerced through violence and threats of violence ...I think if they had done what they were supposed to have done thebpolice would have found some evidence..
Bit they found none
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So do you think the Ciprianos both independently and on several occasions admitted being involved in Joana's disappearance just for the hell of it? Or was Madeleine's disappearance 2½ years later merely an unfortunate coincidence?
I don’t think the Cipriano have a combined iq of much more than 150 therefore I think it’s possible that in order to put the case to bed swiftly it’s possible that they were coerced or incentivised to admit to their part in her disappearance. It wouldn’t be the first time this sort if thing has happened, people of low intelligence are particularly susceptible to miscarriages of justice.
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I think they were coerced through violence and threats of violence ...I think if they had done what they were supposed to have done thebpolice would have found some evidence..
Bit they found none
That is completely false and extremely disingenuous. There is a lot of evidence in the Joana case from the sighting of her returning home to the blood residues found on the doorframe, walls, floor, shoes etc. Your denial is diabolical imo.
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I don’t think the Cipriano have a combined iq of much more than 150 therefore I think it’s possible that in order to put the case to bed swiftly it’s possible that they were coerced or incentivised to admit to their part in her disappearance. It wouldn’t be the first time this sort if thing has happened, people of low intelligence are particularly susceptible to miscarriages of justice.
Smart enough to concoct a story though later retracted. Leonor's lawyer Marcos Correia believed her otherwise he wouldn't have got her to admit what she did latterly. Could it have been a case of her initially being coerced by her more intelligent brother but once away from his control she changed her story?
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I'm not quite understanding you. The new "confession" was delivered to the Faro court during the trial of the PJ Inspectors. How could it have affected any appeal she was making?
Bumped for Angelo.
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Bumped for Angelo.
Sorry Misty, I missed your post.
Leonor was convicted of murder. She wanted to appeal that conviction to something like conspiracy after the fact and assisting an offender but it never happened. It has nothing to do with Amaral and his colleagues.
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Sorry Misty, I missed your post.
Leonor was convicted of murder. She wanted to appeal that conviction to something like conspiracy after the fact and assisting an offender but it never happened. It has nothing to do with Amaral and his colleagues.
Leonor Cipriano amending testimony and says daughter was killed by uncle
January 16, 2009, 13:05
Leonor Cipriano changed her testimony concerning the disappearance of her daughter, in Portimão on the 12th of September 2004. In a witness statement that she signed at the prison of Odemira yesterday, Leonor Cipriano accuses her brother, João Manuel Domingos Cipriano, of being the author of the child’s death.
Beforehand, they intended to simulate an abduction and to send the child to Spain, in exchange for money. This process did not work according to plan and ended up being transformed into a homicide that was carried out by the child’s uncle.
The Public Ministry accuses the child’s mother and uncle of being the authors of Joana’s death and of entertaining an incestuous relationship and that Joana’s body, which remains missing, was dismembered.
Leonor Cipriano’s lawyer will make a statement this afternoon, after the testimony, which is eight pages long, is delivered at the Court of Faro.
This revelation is made on the day of the trial of alleged aggressions against Leonor Cipriano by Polícia Judiciária inspectors.
Joana’s mother, Leonor Cipriano, and her uncle, João Cipriano, have been condemned by the Supreme Court of Justice to 16 years in prison each, over the crimes of homicide and concealment of the child’s cadaver.
source: Lusa, 16.01.2009
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It was nothing to do with her appeal. What purpose do you think Leonor's fresh "confession" served during the trial of the 5 PJ Inspectors accused of torture? It didn't show Leonor in a good light.
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Leonor Cipriano amending testimony and says daughter was killed by uncle
January 16, 2009, 13:05
Leonor Cipriano changed her testimony concerning the disappearance of her daughter, in Portimão on the 12th of September 2004. In a witness statement that she signed at the prison of Odemira yesterday, Leonor Cipriano accuses her brother, João Manuel Domingos Cipriano, of being the author of the child’s death.
Beforehand, they intended to simulate an abduction and to send the child to Spain, in exchange for money. This process did not work according to plan and ended up being transformed into a homicide that was carried out by the child’s uncle.
The Public Ministry accuses the child’s mother and uncle of being the authors of Joana’s death and of entertaining an incestuous relationship and that Joana’s body, which remains missing, was dismembered.
Leonor Cipriano’s lawyer will make a statement this afternoon, after the testimony, which is eight pages long, is delivered at the Court of Faro.
This revelation is made on the day of the trial of alleged aggressions against Leonor Cipriano by Polícia Judiciária inspectors.
Joana’s mother, Leonor Cipriano, and her uncle, João Cipriano, have been condemned by the Supreme Court of Justice to 16 years in prison each, over the crimes of homicide and concealment of the child’s cadaver.
source: Lusa, 16.01.2009
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It was nothing to do with her appeal. What purpose do you think Leonor's fresh "confession" served during the trial of the 5 PJ Inspectors accused of torture? It didn't show Leonor in a good light.
So you are saying that the letter contained in this this link, previously supplied by Angelo https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/01/translation-of-leonor-ciprianos.html? where she starts her letter with
I the undersigned Leonor Maria Domingos Cipriano, inmate number 34 at the Prison of Odemira, today the 15th of January 2009, confess and swear that this is the entire truth that I know about the disappearance of my daughter Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro
Was actually made in October 2004, really?
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So you are saying that the letter contained in this this link, previously supplied by Angelo https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/01/translation-of-leonor-ciprianos.html? where she starts her letter with
I the undersigned Leonor Maria Domingos Cipriano, inmate number 34 at the Prison of Odemira, today the 15th of January 2009, confess and swear that this is the entire truth that I know about the disappearance of my daughter Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro
Was actually made in October 2004, really?
No, not at all. This "fresh" confession was purportedly written out by Leonor's new lawyer, Marcos Aragão Correia, in Jan 2009 at the time the 5 PJ inspectors were on trial. Apparently she could barely write, so I would question whether or not she could read what was written in any of her statements when ratifying & signing.
I'm just trying to establish what significance this new testimony has to that trial, not an appeal, as far as Angelo is concerned.
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My mistake, I was recalling from memory. Her reason for allegedly coming clean at that point was that she was preparing the way for early release.
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My mistake, I was recalling from memory. Her reason for allegedly coming clean at that point was that she was preparing the way for early release.
I'm still not understanding what relevance this confession had to the torture trial. What was Correia hoping to achieve on Leonor's behalf?
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No, not at all. This "fresh" confession was purportedly written out by Leonor's new lawyer, Marcos Aragão Correia, in Jan 2009 at the time the 5 PJ inspectors were on trial. Apparently she could barely write, so I would question whether or not she could read what was written in any of her statements when ratifying & signing.
I'm just trying to establish what significance this new testimony has to that trial, not an appeal, as far as Angelo is concerned.
I believe you are correct that Leonor didn't write the statement herself as the signatures at the bottom of the page are in a different hand to the bulk of the writing. However I do not believe that she was unaware of what was written on those pages and therefore presumably agreed with what was there.
What motives would Marcos Aragão Correia, her own lawyer, have for making her sign a confession implicating her in the murder of her daughter?
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I believe you are correct that Leonor didn't write the statement herself as the signatures at the bottom of the page are in a different hand to the bulk of the writing. However I do not believe that she was unaware of what was written on those pages and therefore presumably agreed with what was there.
What motives would Marcos Aragão Correia, her own lawyer, have for making her sign a confession implicating her in the murder of her daughter?
I think Leonor was merely confessing to complicity in attempting to obtain remuneration by permitting Joana to be illegally adopted by a foreign couple but the deal went wrong. Like you, I am at a loss to understand why Correia would want to introduce a new confession, years after the original one, into the torture trial. It just doesn't make any sense but I don't know what was said in court about it in 2009.
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I very much doubt that Leonor's 3 years of schooling (cf supposedly a fact in the judgement) would have enabled her to dictate such prose. (In contrast, João's "confession" was a few sentences scribbled on paper after Correia (by his own admission bluffed him into believing that gangsters / other convicts would torture/murder him if he didn't "confess".
The only plausible explanation I can think of is that he may have believed that by getting her to "confess" to simply being an accomplice, she could get early release for time already served. If that was indeed his intention, it backfired rather badly.
I'm afraid I can't take any of the "confessions" seriously as I find the circumstances around all of them to be suspicious and there is no evidence to back them up.
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That is completely false and extremely disingenuous. There is a lot of evidence in the Joana case from the sighting of her returning home to the blood residues found on the doorframe, walls, floor, shoes etc. Your denial is diabolical imo.
Angelo, the only sighting was of her returning in the direction of home from the village. None of the blood residues (some were animal as well) were identified as hers. Even if a speck had been hers, kids scrape their knees all the time - there would have to be more than that to cause justified suspicion of such a horrific crime. The "forensic" people didn't even wave a torch around until over 10 days later.
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I very much doubt that Leonor's 3 years of schooling (cf supposedly a fact in the judgement) would have enabled her to dictate such prose. (In contrast, João's "confession" was a few sentences scribbled on paper after Correia (by his own admission bluffed him into believing that gangsters / other convicts would torture/murder him if he didn't "confess".
The only plausible explanation I can think of is that he may have believed that by getting her to "confess" to simply being an accomplice, she could get early release for time already served. If that was indeed his intention, it backfired rather badly.
I'm afraid I can't take any of the "confessions" seriously as I find the circumstances around all of them to be suspicious and there is no evidence to back them up.
Why would the Ciprianos' lawyer try to get them both to confess though Carana. It doesn't make sense.
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Why would the Ciprianos' lawyer try to get them both to confess though Carana. It doesn't make sense.
He wasn't representing João, as far as I know, just Leonor.
In view of the time already spent in jail, he may have thought that "confessing" to a lesser crime would get her out.
The judges didn't buy the new version, and all she got was an extra sentence. I've no idea whether that was the thinking or not, but if it was, it certainly backfired.
For a long time, I'd simply gone off tabloid media reports, as that was all I could find, and had assumed that they were indeed guilty of a horrendous crime and that the only issue was whether torture had occurred or not. Then I was able to read the judgements (which refers to the alleged facts in the case) and... my jaw dropped. Aside from the various confessions, I couldn't find anything to substantiate what had supposedly happened to her.
I was also gobsmacked by reading the passage that as kids usually do get back home, it could therefore be taken as a common sense fact that she did as well. I think that's when I sat up and wondered what the hell was going on.
I also noticed that the tabloids (pro-PJ) had been whipping up the public into frenzy mode very early on (when the Faro boys took over from the original Portimão PJ team). I can understand the public reaction (similar to the awful Baby P case in the UK), but in the Cipriano case, I simply couldn't find any evidece to back up the "confessions".
If they are guilty of somehow causing her death (if she is dead), I don't see what supports the scenario presented by the prosecution. If there is no robust counter-evidence to refute allegations, the allegations seem to be accepted as "undisputed facts". If there is no robust defence counsel, then who can do the donkey work to find any?
Neither is there any evidence that I've been able to find to support the confessions presented by Leonor's latest lawyer.
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https://www.portugalresident.com/2019/03/12/tragic-joanas-uncle-out-of-jail-after-15-years/
By portugalresident 2019-03-12
Just weeks since the mother of ‘murdered Algarve eight-year-old Joana Cipriano’ left Odemira jail to live with a former inmate in Évora, the child’s uncle – jointly condemned with his sister for Joana’s murder – has been freed on conditional bail after serving 15 years behind bars.
According to reports, João – who at one point admitted to cutting Joana’s body up and feeding it to pigs – now claims he is innocent and that his niece is still alive.
Joana’s body “has never been found”, recalls tabloid Correio da Manhã today in a story that suggests João’s mother Florinda is refusing to take her son in.
The paper claims the convicted murderer was intent on “building a new life in the house of his mother in Silves”.
But this may not be possible. Florinda has reportedly told the paper: “No one is coming to live with me. I don’t want to know about these people…”
CM suggests Florinda was referring to both her children, despite the fact that her daughter appears to be settled in Évora and also claiming that she is ‘innocent’ of any involvement in Joana’s disappearance (click here).
This has always been a dismal story which shocked the Algarve to its core in 2004.
Three years later another ‘missing child’ hit the headlines, and to a large extent the tragedy of little Joana Cipriano’s disappearance was pushed to one side.
natasha.donn@algarveresident.com
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