Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Lisbon Libel Trial Daily Reports and Judgements => Topic started by: John on April 19, 2016, 12:58:48 PM
Title: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 19, 2016, 12:58:48 PM
Gonçalo Amaral has today won his appeal against Kate and Gerry McCann in the recent damages case. The unanimous decision by three judges absolves the appellants of any damages claimed by the plaintiffs and awards all costs against the plaintiffs.
This is a translation of numbers 3 and 4 of the Appellate Court of Lisbon's decision in the case that has been filed by the McCann family against Gonçalo Amaral and others.
Acknowledgment to ASTRO for translation.
3. Under articles 635, number 4, and 639, number 1, of the Civil Process Code, the matter of the appeal is delimited by the appellant’s conclusions.
The matter subject to decision is thus essentially centred on the evaluation of the alleged wrongfulness and the responsibility that derives from it, imputed to the 1st defendant [Gonçalo Amaral], now the appellant, of the publication, by the 2nd and the 3rd defendants, equally appellants, of the works at stake.
As far as personality rights are concerned, article 26, number 1, of the Constitution states that everyone has a right to a good name and reputation and to the protection of the intimacy of private and family life.
The same fundamental law protects, with equal dignity, freedom of expression, by stating under number 1 of article 37 that everyone has a right to express and to publicise their thoughts in words, image or by any other means, as well as the right to inform, to inform oneself and to be informed, without impediment or discrimination.
And also, under number 2 of article 38, freedom of press, by consecrating freedom of expression and of creation by journalists and their collaborators.
Number 2 of article 18 establishes, in the case of conflict between fundamental rights, that any legal restrictions to those rights must be limited to whatever is necessary in order to safeguard other rights or interests that are constitutionally protected.
On the other hand, in ordinary law, article 70 of the Civil Code consecrates, as a principle, that the law protects individuals against any illicit offence or threat to offend their physical or moral integrity, while article 80 of the same diploma states that everyone must respect someone else’s intimacy of private life.
Whenever there is a collision of rights that are equal or of the same kind, the holders must, under number 1 of article 335, cede as necessary in order for all of them to produce their effect equally, without greater damage for any one of them – while (under number 2 of the same article), if the rights are not equal or are of different species, the one that is considered superior must prevail.
Therefore, and as the dominant jurisprudence understands the matter:
“One of the limits to the freedom of information, which therefore is not an absolute right, is the safeguard of the right to a good name. Journalists, the media, are bound by ethical and deontological duties, and duties of rigour and objectivity.
- The media have the right, the social function, of spreading news and giving critical or non-critical opinions, and it is important that they do so with respect for the truth and for someone else’s intangible rights, as are personality rights.
- The right to honour, in a broader sense, and the right to freedom of press and of opinion are traditional areas of conflict.
- Criticism has a boundary in the rights of its targets, but it remains legitimate if it is sharp, steely, as long as it is not injurious, because so often therein lies the style of the author.
- To criticise implies to reproach, fault-finding that is aired in the media only stops being legitimate as a manifestation of individual freedom when it expresses objective antijuricity, violating rights that are extremely personal and which effect, in a more or less lasting manner according to men’s memory, assets that need to be preserved as are the rights here at stake, to honour, to a good name and to a social standing” (decision by the Superior Court, dated 20/1/2010, www.dgsi.pt)
In the case at hand, apart from the reporting of the facts that are part of the inquiry into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, an analysis of the book and of the rest of the published material finds that the now 1st appellant [Gonçalo Amaral] therein sustains the thesis that an abduction did not take place, but rather the accidental death of the child, followed by a cover-up – through the concealment of her cadaver and the simulation of that crime – by plaintiffs Gerald and Kate McCann, now the subjects of the appeal.
It results from the aforementioned publication that the means of evidence and the indicia that it reports to are, essentially, those referred to and documented in the respective criminal enquiry.
Nevertheless, the exposed thesis, that the child died accidentally and that fact was concealed by the parents, who have broadcast, in order to deceive, the hypothesis of an abduction, is not new – the same is equally contained in the report which is mentioned under number 9 of the proven facts, determining the arguido constitution of said subjects of appeal [Kate and Gerry McCann], and was, after a copy of the inquiry was made public, published in the media (numbers 65 and 66 of proven facts).
As was stated in the decision, from this Section, concerning the appended injunction, the 1st appellant [Gonçalo Amaral], wanted, through this book – because the institution to which he was bound did not allow him to reply to attacks against his pride and honour, as a professional of the criminal investigation police – to expose his vision of the facts, and therefore the publication of said book has to be considered a legitimate exercise of the right to an opinion.
And because from the proved matter results that – apart from it being about facts that have been profusely published in the inquiry and even publicised through an initiative of the Republic’s Prosecutor General’s Office – it was the subjects of the appeal themselves [Kate and Gerry McCann] who, benefiting from an easy access, multiplied themselves in interviews and interventions in national and international media, one must conclude that it was them who, voluntarily, limited their rights to reservation and to the intimacy of private life.
By proceeding in this manner, they opened the way for anyone to equally express an opinion about the case, contradicting their thesis – without losing their right to exercise a legitimate, and constitutionally consecrated, right to an opinion and a freedom of expression of thought.
On the other hand, we cannot see how the right of the subjects of this appeal [Kate and Gerry McCann] to benefit, following their constitution as arguidos, from the guarantees of the penal process – including the right to a fair investigation and the right to freedom and safety – may be offended by the contents of a book which, in its essence, describes and interprets facts that are part of an inquiry whose contents have been published.
Nothing opposes that, although they have not been deemed sufficient to lead to a criminal charge, said facts are subject to diverse appreciation, namely in a work of literary nature.
Therefore, and because it is contained within consecrated rights, namely under numbers 37 and 38 of the Constitution, the publication at stake must be considered lawful.
Nonetheless, it is understood, in the decision under appeal, that because the 1st appellant, Gonçalo Amaral, was, until October 2, 2007, the coordinator of the criminal investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, he was, after his retirement on the 1st of July, 2008, subject to the duties of secrecy and reserve that are imposed to the employees that serve the Polícia Judiciária.
And, under such terms, although the introductory note in the book invokes personal reasons, in a situation of conflict with the rights to a good name and reputation of the subjects of the appeal, the appellant [Gonçalo Amaral] could not benefit, faced with the results of the investigation, of a broad and full freedom of expression – and thus his conduct would be unlawful, under article 484 of the Civil Code.
From what was above said about this matter, it is clearly understood that such argumentation cannot be sustained.
In effect, and independently of the reasons invoked by the appellant for the publication, it is hardly understandable that an employee, even more a retired one, would have to keep said duties of secrecy and reserve, thus being limited in the exercise of his right to an opinion, concerning the interpretation of facts that were already made public by the judiciary authority, and widely debated (in fact, largely by initiative of the intervenients themselves) in the national and international media.
In the absence of its primordial presupposition it must therefore be concluded against the previous decision, due to the lack of precedence of any of the requests that have been formulated by the current subjects of the appeal [Kate and Gerry McCann] – while the re-appreciation of the matter of fact that had been secondarily requested remains impaired.
4. From the above mentioned, it is agreed, in accordance with both appeals, to revoke the appealed decision and, considering the action against them to be unfounded, to acquit the appealing plaintiffs of the totality of the requests. The costs, in both instances [courts] are to be paid by the appealed subjects [Kate and Gerry McCann].
2867
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 19, 2016, 01:16:41 PM
in simple terms they found the mcanns didnt have a case against GA and the mccans also have to pay his court fees etc
What do you mean 'in simple terms' that's abuse carly, something you go on about all the time.
I am aware of what went on in the Court and that everything was poured over making sheets and sheets of the proceedings. So what exactly have they found to be wrong with what the Judge decided?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 19, 2016, 02:43:58 PM
I must say its good to see people power beating the MSM at their own game.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 19, 2016, 02:45:01 PM
Out of principle, I'm sure they will appeal. Amaral will have to hope his supporters have very deep pockets.
If they have leave to appeal they don't really have a great deal of choice but Sr Amaral will not need much dosh if the McCanns appeal. He just sits tight and does not even have to turn up in court. He needs a brief to turn up on the day of the appeal just in case. The cost will be to the McCanns for their brief to enter the grounds for the appeal and appear before the judge(s).
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 19, 2016, 02:54:01 PM
Which court is this going to be ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on April 19, 2016, 02:56:06 PM
if you are referring to amaral I think you are totally wrong....much of what he has said has been shown to be lies
If the appeal decision is shown to be as reported, new ground rules will need to be observed in comments about him. As has already been mentioned, he may decide to pursue those posting on the Internet for libel.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 19, 2016, 02:59:48 PM
The Supreme Court ? It could be it will come down to dosh. ie can they afford it? Would you take it on on a conditional fee basis? I would want a wedge up front the client having just lost the previous round. I would imagine it will need a bit of cute (expensive) legal tap dancing to find grounds for appeal now.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on April 19, 2016, 03:00:39 PM
And just to clarify "RR apelantes" = GA et al "AA apelados" = GM et al
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 19, 2016, 03:01:29 PM
If the appeal decision is shown to be as reported, new ground rules will need to be observed in comments about him. As has already been mentioned, he may decide to pursue those posting on the Internet for libel.
he would be in his right to do so wouldnt he?? especally certian forums and facebook groups
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 19, 2016, 03:04:30 PM
he would be in his right to do so wouldnt he?? especally certian forums and facebook groups
There will be a lot of folk "hull down" having severe bouts of ring twitter if that is true.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on April 19, 2016, 03:08:47 PM
Where are those who insisted that the lower court judge's decision was watertight and that there was no way that GA as well as the others who appealed could win?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 19, 2016, 03:09:35 PM
If the appeal decision is shown to be as reported, new ground rules will need to be observed in comments about him. As has already been mentioned, he may decide to pursue those posting on the Internet for libel.
Why? Libellous posts about the McCanns have been permitted on here ever since I've posted.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 19, 2016, 03:12:59 PM
Where are those who insisted that the lower court judge's decision was watertight and that there was no way that GA as well as the others who appealed could win?
Let's wait for the translation. Apparently the 3 judges have refuted the evidence provided by the McCann court witnesses. Perhaps Pegasus would elaborate.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 19, 2016, 03:14:43 PM
Could this have anything to do with the pointless 'Police hope to find Madeleine alive' story? Are we going to see 'McCanns lose libel trial appeal' stories next? &%+((£
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 19, 2016, 03:16:49 PM
Could this have anything to do with the pointless 'Police hope to find Madeleine alive' story? Are we going to see 'McCanns lose libel trial appeal' stories next? &%+((£
@)(++(* and pigs might fly
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 19, 2016, 03:20:31 PM
Where are those who insisted that the lower court judge's decision was watertight and that there was no way that GA as well as the others who appealed could win?
I'm still here: I was under the impression that as a modern democracy Portuguese judges would consider there was value in upholding Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights. If Mr Amaral has indeed won his appeal it would appear I have been wrong in that assumption.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 19, 2016, 03:22:46 PM
This Judgement, if true, has nothing to do with any culpability of The McCanns. It will be simply Portuguese Law on The Freedom of Speech.
So let's not get precious about who has the right to Libel. No one has that right.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 19, 2016, 03:23:26 PM
I'm still here: I was under the impression that as a modern democracy Portuguese judges would consider there was value in upholding Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights. If Mr Amaral has indeed won his appeal it would appear I have been wrong in that assumption.
There is no doubt about the decision, the appeal court has revoked the judgement of the lower court and absolved the appellant of any costs claimed by the plaintiffs. Amaral has now a case for seeking damages. This could prove to be extremely costly for the McCanns.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 19, 2016, 03:24:57 PM
Could this have anything to do with the pointless 'Police hope to find Madeleine alive' story? Are we going to see 'McCanns lose libel trial appeal' stories next? &%+((£
Why are stories about hope pointless? Just today, police have arrested someone in connection with the unsolved murder of Rikki Neave more than 20 years ago, which may well bring relief to his family.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 19, 2016, 03:26:00 PM
There is no doubt about the decision, the appeal court has revoked the judgement of the lower court and absolved the appellant of any costs claimed by the plaintiffs. Amaral has now a case for seeking damages.
i hope he does john people have said terrible things about him online and all he did was do his job he also lost his house etc didnt he?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 19, 2016, 03:30:15 PM
There is no doubt about the decision, the appeal court has revoked the judgement of the lower court and absolved the appellant of any costs claimed by the plaintiffs. Amaral has now a case for seeking damages. This could prove to be extremely costly for the McCanns.
then portuguese justice is a disgrace...it cannot be right to accuse people of such crimes and lie about the evidence collected
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 19, 2016, 03:31:31 PM
There is no doubt about the decision, the appeal court has revoked the judgement of the lower court and absolved the appellant of any costs claimed by the plaintiffs. Amaral has now a case for seeking damages. This could prove to be extremely costly for the McCanns.
#damages for what exactly
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on April 19, 2016, 03:32:21 PM
I'm still here: I was under the impression that as a modern democracy Portuguese judges would consider there was value in upholding Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights. If Mr Amaral has indeed won his appeal it would appear I have been wrong in that assumption.
Why? did someone not receive a fair trial then? I recall about a twelve month ago the trial was viewed as fair and the Boogah Man received his just desserts (going by posts on here). What has changed ? there has been no new trial just three judges ruling they disagreed with the original trial verdict.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 19, 2016, 03:33:36 PM
BREAKING NEWS: Portuguese detective WINS his appeal against libel defeat to Madeleine McCann's parents and will NOT have to pay them €500,000 damages
By Gerard Couzens for MailOnline
Published: 00:29 EST, 20 April 2016 | Updated: 00:47 EST, 20 April 2016
View comments
Portuguese detective Goncalo Amaral has won his appeal against his court libel defeat to Madeleine McCann's parents.
The former police chief was ordered to pay Kate and Gerry McCann €500,000 in damages in April last year after accusing them of faking their daughter's abduction.
But today he posted a copy of the 16-page judgement overturning the original decision on an Internet blog. Former Portuguese police chief Goncalo Amaral (pictured) has won his appeal over a court libel loss against Madeleine McCann's parents and won't have to pat them €500,000 in damages, it was reported today +4
Former Portuguese police chief Goncalo Amaral (pictured) has won his appeal over a court libel loss against Madeleine McCann's parents and won't have to pat them €500,000 in damages, it was reported today
The last page of the document, signed by three appeal judges and dated April 19, confirmed the original ruling was being revoked.
Amaral lost his long-running libel battle over his controversial 2008 book claiming the McCanns had faked missing daughter Madeleine's abduction after she died in their Algarve holiday apartment. RELATED ARTICLES
He was also ordered to pay interest after a Lisbon judge ruled he had overstepped freedom of speech limits in The Truth Of The Lie.
After the verdict, the McCanns announced they would plough 'every penny' of the payout into the hunt for their daughter, who was three years old when she vanished on May 3, 2007.
Madeleine McCann's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, speak to the media outside court in in Lisbon during their libel action against Amaral in July 2014
But Amaral's appeal, which he confirmed the following month, thwarted their hopes of spending the money.
Clarence Mitchell, spokesman for the McCanns, was unavailable this afternoon afternoon.
Isabel Duarte, the Portuguese lawyer who represented the couple over the libel case, was said by her office to be in court and unavailable.
Amaral could also be immediately contacted.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3547951/Portuguese-detective-WINS-appeal-against-libel-defeat-Madeleine-McCann-s-parents-NOT-pay-500-000-damages.html#ixzz46HgLSPn1 Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 19, 2016, 03:51:32 PM
"Clarence Mitchell, spokesman for the McCanns, was unavailable." @)(++(*
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 19, 2016, 03:53:34 PM
Would you elaborate, please, as we do not have the benefit of a translation.
its right here
BREAKING NEWS: Portuguese detective WINS his appeal against libel defeat to Madeleine McCann's parents and will NOT have to pay them €500,000 damages
By Gerard Couzens for MailOnline
Published: 00:29 EST, 20 April 2016 | Updated: 00:47 EST, 20 April 2016
View comments
Portuguese detective Goncalo Amaral has won his appeal against his court libel defeat to Madeleine McCann's parents.
The former police chief was ordered to pay Kate and Gerry McCann €500,000 in damages in April last year after accusing them of faking their daughter's abduction.
But today he posted a copy of the 16-page judgement overturning the original decision on an Internet blog. Former Portuguese police chief Goncalo Amaral (pictured) has won his appeal over a court libel loss against Madeleine McCann's parents and won't have to pat them €500,000 in damages, it was reported today +4
Former Portuguese police chief Goncalo Amaral (pictured) has won his appeal over a court libel loss against Madeleine McCann's parents and won't have to pat them €500,000 in damages, it was reported today
The last page of the document, signed by three appeal judges and dated April 19, confirmed the original ruling was being revoked.
Amaral lost his long-running libel battle over his controversial 2008 book claiming the McCanns had faked missing daughter Madeleine's abduction after she died in their Algarve holiday apartment. RELATED ARTICLES
Previous 1 Next
Undated family handout file photo of Madeleine McCann. Detectives still hope that Madeleine could be found alive, despite the drastic scaling back of the police investigation into her disappearance. PRESS ASSOCIATION Photo. Issue date: Monday April 18, 2016. The little girl went missing from a holiday apartment in Portugal in 2007 when she was three, and despite efforts by police there and a British investigation launched in 2011, no progress has been made in finding her. See PA story POLICE Portugal. Photo credit should read: PA/PA Wire NOTE TO EDITORS: This handout photo may only be used in for editorial reporting purposes for the contemporaneous illustration of events, things or the people in the image or facts mentioned in the caption. Reuse of the picture may require further permission from the copyright holder. Madeleine McCann detectives believe the missing youngster... Mandatory Credit: Photo by Piers Allardyce/REX/Shutterstock (4767850ab)\nKatie Hopkins\nLGBT Awards, Landmark Hotel, London, Britain - 24 Apr 2015\n\n KATIE HOPKINS: We'll never know what really happened to...
Share this article Share
He was also ordered to pay interest after a Lisbon judge ruled he had overstepped freedom of speech limits in The Truth Of The Lie.
After the verdict, the McCanns announced they would plough 'every penny' of the payout into the hunt for their daughter, who was three years old when she vanished on May 3, 2007. Madeleine McCann's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, speak to the media outside court in in Lisbon during their libel action against Amaral in July 2014 +4
Madeleine McCann's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, speak to the media outside court in in Lisbon during their libel action against Amaral in July 2014
But Amaral's appeal, which he confirmed the following month, thwarted their hopes of spending the money.
Clarence Mitchell, spokesman for the McCanns, was unavailable this afternoon afternoon.
Isabel Duarte, the Portuguese lawyer who represented the couple over the libel case, was said by her office to be in court and unavailable.
Amaral could also be immediately contacted.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3547951/Portuguese-detective-WINS-appeal-against-libel-defeat-Madeleine-McCann-s-parents-NOT-pay-500-000-damages.html#ixzz46HgLSPn1 Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 19, 2016, 03:59:36 PM
This is a translation of numbers 3 and of the Appellate Court of Lisbon's decision in the case that has been filed by the McCann family against Gonçalo Amaral and others.
This blog would like to express its heartfelt gratitude to every one of you who have supported Gonçalo Amaral through this case. It is not over; but this is, without doubt, a significant and relevant decision that boosts our confidence in the Portuguese Courts and in a system that may be excruciatingly slow but ultimately serves its purpose of performing Justice.
Thank you.
http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 19, 2016, 04:01:32 PM
I feel we must all be delighted that a decision has been finally reached. ?{)(**
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 19, 2016, 04:03:23 PM
#yes...damages for what...and would any judgement by a portuguese court be enforceable against assets in the UK
Losses incurred as a consequence of the McCann's legal actions.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 19, 2016, 04:05:56 PM
Madeleine McCann's Parents Lose Lisbon Libel Case on Appeal
LISBON, Portugal — A lawyer for the parents of missing British girl Madeleine McCann say an appeals court in Portugal has overturned the libel conviction of a former Portuguese detective who published a book alleging they were involved in their daughter's disappearance.
Lisbon lawyer Isabel Duarte tells The Associated Press she was notified Tuesday of the court's decision to uphold Goncalo Amaral's appeal against the order to pay Kate and Gerry McCann 500,000 euros ($568,000) in compensation. Duarte said she intended to fight the decision at the Supreme Court.
Amaral was part of the police investigation into Madeleine's disappearance from a vacation home in Portugal's Algarve region in May 2007, days before her fourth birthday. In 2008 he published his book about the case called "The Truth of the Lie."
think the mcanns and supporters underestimated the power of the internet didnt they?
They and the mccanns did not see this one coming.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on April 19, 2016, 04:18:15 PM
Daily Mail http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3547951/Portuguese-detective-WINS-appeal-against-libel-defeat-Madeleine-McCann-s-parents-NOT-pay-500-000-damages.html
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 19, 2016, 04:18:47 PM
Clearly the appeal judges took the view that the facts in the case were already public knowledge and formed a substantial part of the Archiving Report. They also accepted that the McCanns themselves were partly responsible for the promotion of the thesis.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on April 19, 2016, 04:20:47 PM
"Clarence Mitchell, spokesman for the McCanns, was unavailable this afternoon"
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 19, 2016, 04:22:05 PM
Portuguese detective who claimed McCanns faked Maddie's disappearance after she died in apartment wins libel appeal
Goncolo Amaral wrote a damning book 'The Truth of the Lie' in 2008, in which he blamed the McCanns for covering up Maddie's death
A PORTUGUESE detective who wrote a book claiming the McCanns faked Maddie's disappearance after she died in their holiday apartment has won a libel appeal against her parents.
Goncalo Amaral was ordered to pay Kate and Gerry McCann half a million euros in libel damages in April last year after accusing them of faking their daughter's abduction in an explosive book.
It was today reported three appeal judges ruled in the former Portuguese police chief's favour, meaning he will not have to pay out the cash.
Goncalo launched an appeal a month after losing his long-running libel battle over the controversial 2008 book.
In 'The Truth of the Lie', he said the McCanns faked Madeleine's abduction after she died in their holiday apartment.
He was ordered to pay interest after a Lisbon judge ruled he overstepped freedom of speech limits.
The McCanns announced after the verdict they would plough “every penny” of the payout into the hunt for their daughter, three when she vanished on May 3 2007.
Amaral’s appeal thwarted their hopes of spending the money.
Clarence Mitchell, spokesman for the McCanns, was unavailable this afternoon.
Isabel Duarte, the Portuguese lawyer who represented the couple over the libel case, was said by her office to be in court and unavailable.
Amaral could also not be immediately contacted.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 19, 2016, 04:28:23 PM
Losses incurred as a consequence of the McCann's legal actions.
are you sure he has a case .......and are any damages awarded by a portuguese court enforceable against assets in the UK...do you really know the answers to these questions
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on April 19, 2016, 04:32:17 PM
are you sure he has a case .......and are any damages awarded by a portuguese court enforceable against assets in the UK...do you really know the answers to these questions
So would it make more sense to do it in an English court Davel?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 19, 2016, 04:34:00 PM
are you sure he has a case .......and are any damages awarded by a portuguese court enforceable against assets in the UK...do you really know the answers to these questions
What would stop him suing in this country should he so wish? I can imagine a queue forming to take his business; England and Wales defamation law being generally in favour of the plaintiff 'n' all.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 19, 2016, 04:34:47 PM
Sorry Peggy we crossed
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 19, 2016, 04:35:39 PM
are you sure he has a case .......and are any damages awarded by a portuguese court enforceable against assets in the UK...do you really know the answers to these questions
They can't have it both ways so if Gonçalo does as he stated he would do and pursue a damages action then regardless of where the McCanns reside they will have to comply with any Order made by a Portuguese court. No doubt Sra Duarte and Ricardo Alfonso will lodge a further appeal to the Supreme Court so this could rumble on much further.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 19, 2016, 04:36:38 PM
are you sure he has a case .......and are any damages awarded by a portuguese court enforceable against assets in the UK...do you really know the answers to these questions
Likely not, but it would be a PR home goal if they refused to pay what they owed.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 19, 2016, 04:40:27 PM
Brunty is on the ball now on Sky News.
McCann lawyer Isabel Duarte confirms she will appeal decision to the Supreme Court in Lisbon.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 19, 2016, 04:43:31 PM
They can't have it both ways so if Gonçalo does as he stated he would do and pursue a damages action then regardless of where the McCanns reside they will have to comply with any Order made by a Portuguese court. No doubt Sra Duarte and Ricardo Alfonso will lodge a further appeal to the Supreme Court so this could rumble on much further.
If he pursued a damages claim he would have to reveal details of all the financial assistance he's received during the period in question...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 19, 2016, 04:44:16 PM
If he pursued a damages claim he would have to reveal details of all the financial assistance he's received during the period in question...
He would.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 19, 2016, 04:46:32 PM
If Amaral is allowed to say whatever he likes, shouldn't The McCanns be afforded the same?
Just asking.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 19, 2016, 04:48:42 PM
McCann are 'disappointed but not surprised' after Portuguese cop wins libel appeal
Isabel Duarte, the McCanns' Portuguese lawyer, said she was "disappointed" but not surprised by the appeal decision.
She said Madeleine's parents instructed her to launch an appeal of their own, to be decided by Portugal's Supreme Court.
She confirmed: “I have just learnt that the three appeal court judges have decided to overturn the original decision in favour of my clients. It was a unanimous decision. The original decision has been revoked.
“I and the McCanns are obviously disappointed but I am not surprised because one of the judges ruled in favour of a previous appeal overturning a ban on the book.
“This decision was an appreciation of the law and not the facts.
“We can appeal to the Supreme Court which we will do as we have instructions from our clients.
“My understanding from reading the appeal ruling is that the judges have decided Amaral was entitled to write a book the court calls a literary book.
“The court is basically saying he had the right to express his opinions.
“We obviously hope the appeal will succeed.
“The McCanns never received any compensation money after the original decision although the money was deposited at the court so there is no money to return to Gonzalo Amaral."
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 19, 2016, 04:48:48 PM
They can't have it both ways so if Gonçalo does as he stated he would do and pursue a damages action then regardless of where the McCanns reside they will have to comply with any Order made by a Portuguese court. No doubt Sra Duarte and Ricardo Alfonso will lodge a further appeal to the Supreme Court so this could rumble on much further.
as I said...is an order by a portuguese court ...in a civil case...enforceable in the uk. I doubt very much....do you really know
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: faithlilly on April 19, 2016, 05:07:11 PM
McCann lawyer Isabel Duarte confirms she will appeal decision to the Supreme Court in Lisbon.
I'm not sure how the McCanns will be able to justify spending even more of the fund money appealing this decision. After all even the initial decision said the book had not harmed the search.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 19, 2016, 05:10:48 PM
I'm not sure how the McCanns will be able to justify spending even more of the fund money appealing this decision. After all even the initial decision said the book had not harmed the search.
I don't see they have a great deal of choice; they have to go to the end of the line or have a very convincing reason for not doing so. It is after all not about the money but their good name etc. As I posted the other day, but a mod didn't like it: "Man who ride tiger cannot choose when to dismount"
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 19, 2016, 05:22:32 PM
I don't know how these things work, but the McCanns at this moment owe for all the costs. Will they have to pay up before they can launch an appeal? After all, the amount owing will rise if they lose again. Will the courts take any action to safeguard the amount they owe just as they acted to freeze Amaral's assets?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on April 19, 2016, 05:24:05 PM
McCann lawyer Isabel Duarte confirms she will appeal decision to the Supreme Court in Lisbon.
According to Diário de Notícias, Isabel Duarte said that she would appeal to the Tribunal Suprême because the McCanns asked her to. I'm sure that she realises that it would be hopeless to do so. IIRC, in 2010, when the couple appealed to the SC, their appeal was immediately rejected.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 19, 2016, 05:24:41 PM
This is just the first appeal. Unless I've missed something the McCanns can appeal to the Supreme Court.
The appeal that the experts said was either not taking place or had no chance of success. This was according to the experts "good night Goncalo". Funny old world innit. Supreme Court and ECHR to go. It could rival The McLibel trial for time elapsed. 10 years then another 10 for that one. That I should live that long, oi vey !
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 19, 2016, 05:28:10 PM
This is just the first appeal. Unless I've missed something the McCanns can appeal to the Supreme Court.
So I believe, but we at least one stage nearer the end, which has got to be good.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 19, 2016, 05:39:15 PM
I notice the ones who are happy about Amaral the man who has stated that Madeleine is dead are the same ones who were not happy about the report from SY saying they hope to find Madeleine alive, says it all really.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 19, 2016, 05:39:45 PM
Does anyone know what grounds there might be for an appeal?
'Experts' were quick to come forward and state why Amaral wouldn't be able to appeal, so presumably these same experts will have an opinion on this next level of appeal.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 19, 2016, 05:43:14 PM
I don't know how these things work, but the McCanns at this moment owe for all the costs. Will they have to pay up before they can launch an appeal? After all, the amount owing will rise if they lose again. Will the courts take any action to safeguard the amount they owe just as they acted to freeze Amaral's assets?
Actual court costs are pretty much PAYG. The McCanns will owe Dra Duarte something but we don't know how that is divvied up, and they now owe for Sr Amarals legal costs unless it is overturned by the next appeal. It is doubtful they will pay anything until the final appeal is done and dusted. There is potential for the belt to come off in a quite spectacular manner.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 19, 2016, 05:43:55 PM
as I said...is an order by a portuguese court ...in a civil case...enforceable in the uk. I doubt very much....do you really know
Do you mean concerning this current appeal?
“The McCanns never received any compensation money after the original decision although the money was deposited at the court so there is no money to return to Gonzalo Amaral." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/19/madeleine-mccann-portuguese-detective-wins-appeal-against-order/
It's not clear whether the amount will still by kept by the court if the McCanns lodge a Supreme Court appeal... as a final appeal could go the other way.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 19, 2016, 05:45:22 PM
Does anyone know what grounds there might be for an appeal?
'Experts' were quick to come forward and state why Amaral wouldn't be able to appeal, so presumably these same experts will have an opinion on this next level of appeal.
I don't think they thought that far ahead.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 19, 2016, 05:46:59 PM
Had it not been for Leanne Baulch and others in the UK Amaral may not have been able to appeal and the McCanns would have achieved their objectives.
The Supreme Court has found against them previously so it will be quite a gamble to go there again because they have nothing new to bring to the process as far as I know.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 19, 2016, 05:49:25 PM
Does anyone know what grounds there might be for an appeal?
'Experts' were quick to come forward and state why Amaral wouldn't be able to appeal, so presumably these same experts will have an opinion on this next level of appeal.
What about writing his book whilst still employed by the Police?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 19, 2016, 05:49:49 PM
What an absolute disgrace that a court supports the defamation of an innocent couple in this way
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 19, 2016, 05:52:43 PM
I notice the ones who are happy about Amaral the man who has stated that Madeleine is dead are the same ones who were not happy about the report from SY saying they hope to find Madeleine alive, says it all really.
What I find particularly funny is that last time out the judge booted out 60% of the claim and awarded court costs against the McCanns in a 60:40 split. This was dressed up, on this very forum, as a major victory by the McCanns and anyone who didn't see that was ESN, didn't understand the evidence, was lacking in empathy or a terrorist supporter (delete as applicable). Sr Amaral's appeal and fund raising was portrayed as somekind of confidence trick and anyone who could not see that was (see above for detail). Well now the appeal court has booted out the remaining 40% and awarded costs against the McCanns. So as it sits they are empty handed. I find it funny that the "experts" had it so wrong. I am glad I am not as clever as them. I look forward however to the explanation of how this is really another major victory for the McCanns I am too dim to see.
Madeleine's fate was a tragedy; we don't know what happened but it is probable she died in 2007.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 19, 2016, 06:04:24 PM
Is there any way the mccanns funds can now be seized by the court as Amaral's were ?
Now that would be a taste of their own medicine.
Can't see that happening unfortunately.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 19, 2016, 06:05:56 PM
Does anyone know what grounds there might be for an appeal?
'Experts' were quick to come forward and state why Amaral wouldn't be able to appeal, so presumably these same experts will have an opinion on this next level of appeal.
What?
The present joint enquiry thinks there might be a chance of finding Madeleine alive and Amaral wrote a book saying she is definitely dead and the McCannsdunit.
Says everything ....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 19, 2016, 06:09:06 PM
I notice the ones who are happy about Amaral the man who has stated that Madeleine is dead are the same ones who were not happy about the report from SY saying they hope to find Madeleine alive, says it all really.
Amaral was entitled to express his opinion. At the moment that's official. People are pleased that he won't have to pay half a million Euros for that, regardless of what his opinion was.
People would be very pleased if Madeleine was found alive, they just aren't convinced that it's going to happen. Particularly as SY seem to have no idea where to look.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 19, 2016, 06:12:07 PM
Actual court costs are pretty much PAYG. The McCanns will owe Dra Duarte something but we don't know how that is divvied up, and they now owe for Sr Amarals legal costs unless it is overturned by the next appeal. It is doubtful they will pay anything until the final appeal is done and dusted. There is potential for the belt to come off in a quite spectacular manner.
Meanwhile a nice little earner for Duarte regardless of the outcome.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 19, 2016, 06:12:40 PM
The present joint enquiry thinks there might be a chance of finding Madeleine alive and Amaral wrote a book saying she is definitely dead and the McCannsdunit.
Says everything ....
This has all been dealt with before - are there any new grounds?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 19, 2016, 06:15:18 PM
If the appeal decision is shown to be as reported, new ground rules will need to be observed in comments about him. As has already been mentioned, he may decide to pursue those posting on the Internet for libel.
Why?
The adulterer who stole from his own brother, covered for PJ colleagues who beat the cr*p out of Leonor Cipriano and wrote a book about an investigation he coordinated into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann remains the adulterer who stole from his own brother, covered for PJ colleagues who beat the cr*p out of Leonor Cipriano and wrote a book about an investigation he coordinated into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann ....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 19, 2016, 06:17:35 PM
dont deny it you love gerry and kate because in your eyes they are educated and wonderful where as people without bias see them for what they are davel you have been almost stalkish and your agressiveness on this forum has not gone unnoticed
Basically davel was gloating that Amaral would be destroyed by the appeal.
He hasn't the [moderated] to admit the truth, but that doesn't surprise me in the least.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 19, 2016, 06:18:40 PM
The adulterer who stole from his own brother, covered for PJ colleagues who beat the cr*p out of Leonor Cipriano and wrote a book about an investigation he coordinated into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann remains the adulterer who stole from his own brother, covered for PJ colleagues who beat the cr*p out of Leonor Cipriano and wrote a book about an investigation he coordinated into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann ....
Are you putting that forward as a ground for appeal? @)(++(*
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Angelo222 on April 19, 2016, 06:19:06 PM
Let's see what Amaral's lawyers say in due course.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 19, 2016, 06:27:18 PM
3. Under articles 635, number 4, and 639, number 1, of the Civil Process Code, the matter of the appeal is delimited by the appellant’s conclusions.
The matter subject to decision is thus essentially centred on the evaluation of the alleged wrongfulness and the responsibility that derives from it, imputed to the 1st defendant [Gonçalo Amaral], now the appellant, of the publication, by the 2nd and the 3rd defendants, equally appellants, of the works at stake.
As far as personality rights are concerned, article 26, number 1, of the Constitution states that everyone has a right to a good name and reputation and to the protection of the intimacy of private and family life.
The same fundamental law protects, with equal dignity, freedom of expression, by stating under number 1 of article 37 that everyone has a right to express and to publicise their thoughts in words, image or by any other means, as well as the right to inform, to inform oneself and to be informed, without impediment or discrimination.
And also, under number 2 of article 38, freedom of press, by consecrating freedom of expression and of creation by journalists and their collaborators.
Number 2 of article 18 establishes, in the case of conflict between fundamental rights, that any legal restrictions to those rights must be limited to whatever is necessary in order to safeguard other rights or interests that are constitutionally protected.
On the other hand, in ordinary law, article 70 of the Civil Code consecrates, as a principle, that the law protects individuals against any illicit offence or threat to offend their physical or moral integrity, while article 80 of the same diploma states that everyone must respect someone else’s intimacy of private life.
Whenever there is a collision of rights that are equal or of the same kind, the holders must, under number 1 of article 335, cede as necessary in order for all of them to produce their effect equally, without greater damage for any one of them – while (under number 2 of the same article), if the rights are not equal or are of different species, the one that is considered superior must prevail.
Therefore, and as the dominant jurisprudence understands the matter:
“One of the limits to the freedom of information, which therefore is not an absolute right, is the safeguard of the right to a good name. Journalists, the media, are bound by ethical and deontological duties, and duties of rigour and objectivity.
- The media have the right, the social function, of spreading news and giving critical or non-critical opinions, and it is important that they do so with respect for the truth and for someone else’s intangible rights, as are personality rights.
- The right to honour, in a broader sense, and the right to freedom of press and of opinion are traditional areas of conflict.
- Criticism has a boundary in the rights of its targets, but it remains legitimate if it is sharp, steely, as long as it is not injurious, because so often therein lies the style of the author.
- To criticise implies to reproach, fault-finding that is aired in the media only stops being legitimate as a manifestation of individual freedom when it expresses objective antijuricity, violating rights that are extremely personal and which effect, in a more or less lasting manner according to men’s memory, assets that need to be preserved as are the rights here at stake, to honour, to a good name and to a social standing” (decision by the Superior Court, dated 20/1/2010, www.dgsi.pt)
In the case at hand, apart from the reporting of the facts that are part of the inquiry into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, an analysis of the book and of the rest of the published material finds that the now 1st appellant [Gonçalo Amaral] therein sustains the thesis that an abduction did not take place, but rather the accidental death of the child, followed by a cover-up – through the concealment of her cadaver and the simulation of that crime – by plaintiffs Gerald and Kate McCann, now the subjects of the appeal.
It results from the aforementioned publication that the means of evidence and the indicia that it reports to are, essentially, those referred to and documented in the respective criminal enquiry.
Nevertheless, the exposed thesis, that the child died accidentally and that fact was concealed by the parents, who have broadcast, in order to deceive, the hypothesis of an abduction, is not new – the same is equally contained in the report which is mentioned under number 9 of the proven facts, determining the arguido constitution of said subjects of appeal [Kate and Gerry McCann], and was, after a copy of the inquiry was made public, published in the media (numbers 65 and 66 of proven facts).
As was stated in the decision, from this Section, concerning the appended injunction, the 1st appellant [Gonçalo Amaral], wanted, through this book – because the institution to which he was bound did not allow him to reply to attacks against his pride and honour, as a professional of the criminal investigation police – to expose his vision of the facts, and therefore the publication of said book has to be considered a legitimate exercise of the right to an opinion.
And because from the proved matter results that – apart from it being about facts that have been profusely published in the inquiry and even publicised through an initiative of the Republic’s Prosecutor General’s Office – it was the subjects of the appeal themselves [Kate and Gerry McCann] who, benefiting from an easy access, multiplied themselves in interviews and interventions in national and international media, one must conclude that it was them who, voluntarily, limited their rights to reservation and to the intimacy of private life.
By proceeding in this manner, they opened the way for anyone to equally express an opinion about the case, contradicting their thesis – without losing their right to exercise a legitimate, and constitutionally consecrated, right to an opinion and a freedom of expression of thought.
On the other hand, we cannot see how the right of the subjects of this appeal [Kate and Gerry McCann] to benefit, following their constitution as arguidos, from the guarantees of the penal process – including the right to a fair investigation and the right to freedom and safety – may be offended by the contents of a book which, in its essence, describes and interprets facts that are part of an inquiry whose contents have been published.
Nothing opposes that, although they have not been deemed sufficient to lead to a criminal charge, said facts are subject to diverse appreciation, namely in a work of literary nature.
Therefore, and because it is contained within consecrated rights, namely under numbers 37 and 38 of the Constitution, the publication at stake must be considered lawful.
Nonetheless, it is understood, in the decision under appeal, that because the 1st appellant, Gonçalo Amaral, was, until October 2, 2007, the coordinator of the criminal investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, he was, after his retirement on the 1st of July, 2008, subject to the duties of secrecy and reserve that are imposed to the employees that serve the Polícia Judiciária.
And, under such terms, although the introductory note in the book invokes personal reasons, in a situation of conflict with the rights to a good name and reputation of the subjects of the appeal, the appellant [Gonçalo Amaral] could not benefit, faced with the results of the investigation, of a broad and full freedom of expression – and thus his conduct would be unlawful, under article 484 of the Civil Code.
From what was above said about this matter, it is clearly understood that such argumentation cannot be sustained.
In effect, and independently of the reasons invoked by the appellant for the publication, it is hardly understandable that an employee, even more a retired one, would have to keep said duties of secrecy and reserve, thus being limited in the exercise of his right to an opinion, concerning the interpretation of facts that were already made public by the judiciary authority, and widely debated (in fact, largely by initiative of the intervenients themselves) in the national and international media.
In the absence of its primordial presupposition it must therefore be concluded against the previous decision, due to the lack of precedence of any of the requests that have been formulated by the current subjects of the appeal [Kate and Gerry McCann] – while the re-appreciation of the matter of fact that had been secondarily requested remains impaired.
4. From the above mentioned, it is agreed, in accordance with both appeals, to revoke the appealed decision and, considering the action against them to be unfounded, to acquit the appealing plaintiffs of the totality of the requests. The costs, in both instances [courts] are to be paid by the appealed subjects [Kate and Gerry McCann].
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 19, 2016, 06:27:22 PM
What libel? It isn't libel if what you say is true, he did convince people that Madeleine was dead and didn't need searching for.
For goodness sake people can and did make up their own minds about the case without Amaral, who need I remind you was only involved in the case for 3 months as coordinator, and other members of the PJ shared his views.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 19, 2016, 06:40:08 PM
The mood changed in Portugal as soon as they were made arguido's, are you saying that his book didn't change anyone's mind about the McCann's? It set everything going. IMO
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 19, 2016, 06:52:01 PM
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 19, 2016, 07:02:33 PM
Oh no! tic toc has changed sides @)(++(*
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 19, 2016, 07:04:12 PM
jassi i find it highly unlikley that if the mcanns appeal they will win the portugese court has found in his favour so wouldnt it be risky forthe mcanns to start this again??( sorry thinking out loud lol)
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 19, 2016, 07:04:34 PM
The status quo remains until the final appeal is heard.
Any appeal made by the parents does not suspend this decision and Guerra & Paz have already announced that the book will be out on the shelves for sale by next week.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 19, 2016, 07:42:40 PM
Any appeal made by the parents does not suspend this decision and Guerra & Paz have already announced that the book will be out on the shelves for sale by next week.
Excellent.
Good to hear.
Now will the McCann's have to reimburse Amaral and the publishers for any copies of the book which have been destroyed ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 19, 2016, 07:43:34 PM
She [Isabel Duarte] said Madeleine's parents had instructed her to launch an appeal of their own which will be decided by Portugal's Supreme Court.
Whatever Amaral's rhetoric, the status quo remains until the final appeal is heard.
I already answered your previous post that the court decision is not suspended by any appeal made by the McCanns and that Guerra & Paz have announced that they will be putting the book back in the shops for sale.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 19, 2016, 08:25:07 PM
I already answered your previous post that the court decision is not suspended by any appeal made by the McCanns and that Guerra & Paz have announced that they will be putting the book back in the shops for sale.
i heard as soon as next week and it will sell like hotcakes 8)--))
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 19, 2016, 08:27:20 PM
I already answered your previous post that the court decision is not suspended by any appeal made by the McCanns and that Guerra & Paz have announced that they will be putting the book back in the shops for sale.
Has the court also unfrozen Amaral's assets?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 19, 2016, 08:33:35 PM
If it's true that his book can go on sale again, then it would seem logical that his assets are unfrozen as well.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 19, 2016, 08:35:50 PM
GA has every right to have it unfrozen i would imagine??
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 19, 2016, 08:47:37 PM
Appeal court judges reject McCanns' ‘libel win’
Almost a year to the day that former PJ detective Gonçalo Amaral learnt that the parents of missing Madeleine McCann had successfully sued him over his book “The Truth of the Lie”, three appeal court judges have ruled that there is essentially no case to answer.
Ferreira de Almeida, Catarina Manso and Alexandrina Branquinho have unanimously overturned the ruling of a lower court, freeing Amaral from a €500,000 bill for damages and another €106,000 in legal costs.
The McCanns are “almost certain” to appeal - but the fact that the judges were united over their 16-page decision speaks volumes.
For further details, see our printed edition, out on Thursday morning.
Almost a year to the day that former PJ detective Gonçalo Amaral learnt that the parents of missing Madeleine McCann had successfully sued him over his book “The Truth of the Lie”, three appeal court judges have ruled that there is essentially no case to answer.
Ferreira de Almeida, Catarina Manso and Alexandrina Branquinho have unanimously overturned the ruling of a lower court, freeing Amaral from a €500,000 bill for damages and another €106,000 in legal costs.
The McCanns are “almost certain” to appeal - but the fact that the judges were united over their 16-page decision speaks volumes.
For further details, see our printed edition, out on Thursday morning.
I predict the Supreme Court will uphold this decision if asked to rule on it. Portuguese society holds their right to free speech a long fought for privilege.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 19, 2016, 08:54:38 PM
I predict the Supreme Court will uphold this decision if asked to rule on it. Portuguese society holds their right to free speech a long fought for privilege.
What does "free-speech" have to do with the dissemination of the content of Amaral's book?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 19, 2016, 09:39:21 PM
What does "free-speech" have to do with the dissemination of the content of Amaral's book?
Overly exaggerated,as well as misrepresented, as per norm,the judges have decided, thats it,accept it
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 19, 2016, 09:44:02 PM
If the assets are unfrozen, we can expect to see a generous cheque being publicly donated to a children's charity as soon as.... plus the closure of PJGA & no further Crowdfunding appeals.....is that correct?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 19, 2016, 09:44:40 PM
If the assets are unfrozen, we can expect to see a generous cheque being publicly donated to a children's charity as soon as.... plus the closure of PJGA & no further Crowdfunding appeals.....is that correct?
Probably not before it's known if an appeal will be allowed. There was talk of the remnants of the PJGA fund being donated, but not sure why anything else should be.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on April 19, 2016, 09:46:22 PM
The judges also pointed out the injustice of the amount of the compensation awarded, considering the financial position of the parties.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 19, 2016, 09:46:28 PM
If the assets are unfrozen, we can expect to see a generous cheque being publicly donated to a children's charity as soon as.... plus the closure of PJGA & no further Crowdfunding appeals.....is that correct?
legally it would be his money??? he can do what he wants with it??
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 19, 2016, 09:47:13 PM
If the assets are unfrozen, we can expect to see a generous cheque being publicly donated to a children's charity as soon as.... plus the closure of PJGA & no further Crowdfunding appeals.....is that correct?
If my understanding is correct, the assets will remain frozen until the final appeal is heard.
If (please God!) Madeleine were to be found alive (aside from being joyous news) it would be interesting to see how that development would affect a decision in (separate) proceedings that Amaral should be allowed to say (in a book) that she died at her parents' hands ....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 19, 2016, 09:51:47 PM
Madeleine McCann’s parents 'seething' as police chief wins libel appeal against them
20:55, 19 Apr 2016 Updated 20:56, 19 Apr 2016 By Martin Fricker
Goncalo Amaral has won his appeal against an earlier ruling where he had to pay the McCann family £360,000 and £76,000 in interest
404 shares
Getty Kate and Gerry McCann Kate and Gerry McCann are said to be 'seething' at the court ruling
Madeleine McCann’s parents are “seething” after an ex-cop who led the bungled hunt for their daughter won a libel appeal against them.
Goncalo Amaral was ordered to pay Kate and Gerry McCann £360,000 and £76,000 in interest last year after claiming in a book that they were responsible for her death and faked her abduction.
The decision means Amaral’s book, ‘The Truth of the Lie’, which is banned in the UK, could potentially go on sale in Portugal again.
Kate and Gerry originally sued over two defamatory allegations.
The first was that they were responsible for Maddie's death and the second that they faked her abduction, which they sued for libel and won the case.
The appeal judges found the earlier judge had overstepped the limits of Amaral’s freedom of expression.
PA Madeleine McCann Madeleine McCann vanished while on a family holiday in 2007
The judges said the decision did not mean what he claimed was true, merely that it was his his “opinion”.
The couple, who fought a long-running court battle with the former police chief, vowed to spend “every penny” on the hunt for Madeleine.
Read more: Police chief wins appeal over libel loss against Madeleine McCann's parents
Amaral, the officer tasked with finding the three-year-old in 2007, put those plans on hold by lodging an appeal last May.
And it emerged three appeal judges had ruled in his favour - meaning the McCanns may never receive a penny.
Amaral’s lawyer Miguel Cruz Rodrigues said: “This decision not only means my client hasn’t got to pay the 500,000 Euros to Madeleine McCann’s parents but equally importantly also allows him to express his freedom of speech and the chance to republish his book.”
PA Madeleine McCann Goncalo Amaral's book about Madeleine McCann's disappearance may potentially be able to go on sale again
Editor Guerra e Paz are expected to rush out new copies so they can hit the shelves next week, netting Amaral a potential fortune.
The devastating blow came just 24 hours after one of Britain’s most senior police officers said Madeleine can still be found alive.
Amaral posted a 16-page judgement overturning the original Lisbon court judgement on an internet blog.
The final page - signed by three Tribunal da Relacao judges and dated April 19 - confirmed the ruling was being revoked.
Read more: Madeleine McCann can still be found alive, says top cop
They said that Amaral had a right to express his opinions in the 2008 book ‘The Truth of the Lie’.
The judges also said the McCanns paved the way for people to express their opinions” by giving newspaper and TV interviews themselves.
The allegations are merely Amaral's opinion and not fact and he won his appeal on a legal point surrounding his right to freedom of expression.
Reuters Goncalo Amaral Former police inspector Goncalo Amaral may never have to pay the McCann's a penny
Kate and Gerry have now instructed lawyers to take their legal fight to Portugal’s Supreme Court.
If that final ruling goes against them, they will receive no damages from the man they blame for botching the police investigation.
A source close to the couple from Rothley, Leics, said: “They are seething over the ruling.
“It just drags on and on. As yet they’ve still not received a penny from him in libel damages.
“The timing couldn’t be any worse, just a few weeks away from the anniversary of Madeleine’s disappearance.”
PA Kate and Gerry McCann Kate and Gerry McCann will now take their fight to Portugal's Supreme Court
They began their legal battle with Amaral in 2009 after he penned the book accusing them of being responsible for Madeleine’s death.
The former Portuguese police chief claimed his his opinion they faked her abduction after she died in their Praia da Luz holiday apartment.
‘The Truth of the Lie’ is currently banned from sale in the UK but was a best-seller in Portugal.
More than 120,000 copies were sold before it was removed from the shelves after the McCanns won an injunction.
A documentary based on the book was broadcast by Portuguese station TVI in April 2009 and was watched by 2.2million viewers.
Amaral was thrown off the Madeleine investigation after publicly criticising British police involved in the long-running case.
Click to play Play 0:00 / 1:24 Fullscreen Mute
Kate and Gerry’s lawyer Isabel Duarte said she was “disappointed” but not surprised by the appeal decision.
She said: “The three appeal court judges decided to overturn the original decision in favour of my clients.
“It was a unanimous decision. The original decision has been revoked. I and the McCanns are obviously disappointed.
“I am not surprised because one of the judges ruled in favour of a previous appeal overturning a ban on the book.
“We can appeal to the Supreme Court which we will do as we have instructions from our clients.”
Reuters Portuguese former police chief Goncalo Amaral Portuguese former police chief Goncalo Amaral
It is understood the Supreme Court could take until next year to issue the final ruling.
A spokesman for the McCanns said: “The process is not over yet and they will lodge an appeal in the country’s Supreme Court.
“It is a matter for Kate and Gerry’s lawyers to deal with.”
Madeleine’s parents both gave evidence in the libel trial in Lisbon - which ended in victory for them last April.
After Amaral was given permission to appeal, he said: “We are in the face of a mere battle in a war that is far from over.”
Reacting to those comments, the McCanns said the ongoing legal battle caused them “anguish”.
PA Gerry and Kate McCann speak with journalists at the court in Lisbon Gerry and Kate McCann speak with journalists at the court in Lisbon back in 2014
A source close to the couple, from Rothley, Leics, said: “Kate and Gerry are exasperated by this.
“Civil proceedings against Mr Amaral have already been going on for six years. It just drags on and on, and causes them even more anguish.”
Madeleine, who would turn 13 next month, vanished from her parents’ holiday apartment on the Algarve in 2007.
Kate and Gerry were dining with friends at a poolside tapas restaurant in the Ocean Club complex at the time.
The youngster’s twin siblings Amelie and Sean, who are now 11, were sleeping in the same room.
Kate, a GP, said earlier this year that she thinks her eldest daughter, who would turn 13 next month, is still in the Algarve.
PA Madeleine McCann in an Everton Football shirt. Madeleine McCann in an Everton Football shirt.
But despite a massive police investigation in Portugal and a four-year probe by British cops, she has never been found.
Her parents were dismayed last year when the Scotland Yard investigation into her disappearance was scaled back.
But they were given a boost on Monday when Det Chief Supt Duthie insisted the £12m probe is “ongoing”.
He said: “There is ongoing work. There is always a possibility that we will find Madeleine and we hope that we will find her alive.
“That’s what we want and that’s what the family and the public want and that is why the Home Office continue to fund it.
“There is work that needs to be done still,” added the head of Scotland Yard’s Homicide and Major Crime Command. DailyMirror
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 19, 2016, 09:52:21 PM
Unless he has personal control of them, it's not an issue to concern him. If others control this money, it will be for them to determine what happens to it.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on April 19, 2016, 10:01:14 PM
if you suggest Maddie died in the apartment and her parents covered up her death..then that is libel
Obviously not in PT.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 19, 2016, 10:04:27 PM
@)(++(* why does ferryman keep talking about the final appeal this was it!!! who knows if a supreme court one will go ahead not to mention the mcanns have to pay GA and the courts he owes them nothing
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 19, 2016, 10:07:39 PM
The judges also pointed out the injustice of the amount of the compensation awarded, considering the financial position of the parties.
Absolutely, never in the realms of Portuguese justice has such a ridiculous amount been awarded in damages, I really don't know what Judge Maria de Melo e Castro was thinking to be honest.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on April 19, 2016, 10:12:52 PM
Absolutely, never in the realms of Portuguese justice has such a ridiculous amount been awarded in damages, I really don't know what Judge Maria de Melo e Castro was thinking to be honest.
Ensuring an appeal was allowed?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 19, 2016, 10:17:30 PM
Absolutely, never in the realms of Portuguese justice has such a ridiculous amount been awarded in damages, I really don't know what Judge Maria de Melo e Castro was thinking to be honest.
I thought her whole judgment was based on Sr Amaral not being allowed to profit from privileged information and so his gains should be taken away? She basically threw everything else out.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 19, 2016, 10:18:17 PM
Absolutely, never in the realms of Portuguese justice has such a ridiculous amount been awarded in damages, I really don't know what Judge Maria de Melo e Castro was thinking to be honest.
Untrue.
Financial compensation is limited in criminal libel; unlimited in civil (which the McCanns' action was).
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 19, 2016, 10:18:54 PM
How is John confused? It doesnt matter, what is relevant is the judges decreed it was a ridiculous amount of money awarded.
John has confused criminal libel (where monetary awards are, indeed, modest) with civil libel (the McCanns' action) where there are no prescribed limits (on financial compensation).
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 19, 2016, 10:42:21 PM
Even in civil proceedings these amounts are unheard of.
Untrue.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on April 19, 2016, 10:44:16 PM
Did the decision by MF to finance the obtaining of the 2009 injunction increase the amount of searching that has been done in the six and a half years since then?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 19, 2016, 10:44:24 PM
I think Kate and Gerry will get a lot of support from the british public after this disgraceful verdict from the portuguese court...just wait and see
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 19, 2016, 10:54:54 PM
Obviously the appeal court doesn't agree with you.
That is not an objective verdict.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on April 19, 2016, 11:05:35 PM
"Chairman's statement for the year ending 31 March 2009 ... We have ... paid for legal representation ... in Portugal, enabling them to obtain an injunction banning Mr Amaral from repeating his fabricated claims ... "
Source: Companies House (I've snipped some names out of fairness, also corrected a spelling error)
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 19, 2016, 11:05:53 PM
I'm sure you can spot the irony (not quite the right word, since irony implies humour) of the present, joint, enquiry holding hope of, yet, finding Madeleine alive and a separate decision in civil proceedings that Amaral is entitled to assert that Madeleine is dead, and even, that her parents know she is dead, caused her death, concealed her remains and launched a fabricated 'appeal' in their (dead!) daughter's name.
Can't you?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on April 19, 2016, 11:12:07 PM
I'm sure you can spot the irony (not quite the right word, since irony implies humour) of the present, joint, enquiry holding hope of, yet, finding Madeleine alive and a separate decision in civil proceedings that Amaral is entitled to assert that Madeleine is dead, and even, that her parents know she is dead, caused her death, concealed her remains and launched a fabricated 'appeal' in their (dead!) daughter's name.
Can't you?
The problem being that nobody knows what happened to Madeleine which renders all theories valid even now.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 19, 2016, 11:14:27 PM
They went extremely low from early 2007 meanng theyd lost the argument from the start,oh well, same old same old, must go now, soent too long on here already
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 19, 2016, 11:15:31 PM
The Portuguese prosecutors, who ruled that there was no case for the McCanns to answer (for one).
Scotland Yard for another ....
Yes, on evidence which existed at the archive. The prosecutors also stated that the McCanns had lost the opportunity to demostrate what they claimed happened.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 19, 2016, 11:24:49 PM
no it doesn't John..you are totally wrong...certain scenarios have been ruled out
Is that the reason it's unsolved?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 19, 2016, 11:25:44 PM
...
clarrie was here in australia last week or a few weeks ago most ignored him 8(0(*
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on April 19, 2016, 11:26:04 PM
It says alot when one of the more intellectual posts has been a comment on the size of a detective's bottom. Back to serious discussion - is the book now be allowed to be marketed in the UK (BTW I don't agree with everything in it)
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 19, 2016, 11:26:44 PM
Yes, on evidence which existed at the archive. The prosecutors also stated that the McCanns had lost the opportunity to demostrate what they claimed happened.
It's never necessary to demonstrate innocence ...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 19, 2016, 11:30:46 PM
It's all very well having a laugh but name calling will not be tolerated.
Back to reasoned debate please. TY
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 19, 2016, 11:34:47 PM
It says alot when one of the more intellectual posts has been a comment on the size of a detective's bottom. Back to serious discussion - is the book now be allowed to be marketed in the UK (BTW I don't agree with everything in it)
I sincerely hope so.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 19, 2016, 11:38:10 PM
It says alot when one of the more intellectual posts has been a comment on the size of a detective's bottom. Back to serious discussion - is the book now be allowed to be marketed in the UK (BTW I don't agree with everything in it)
are you serious...words fail me... how little you understand libel if you think a portuguese judgement allows the book to be sold in the UK
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on April 19, 2016, 11:44:31 PM
CONTROVERSIAL. In the book "Maddie: The Truth of the Lie", Gonçalo Amaral defends that the parents of British girl were involved in the case
luis faustino Former inspector PJ feels morally and financially harmed by the fact that his book about Maddie's disappearance have been withdrawn from the market. The High Court gave him reason Tuesday Hugo Franco
Hugo Franco
Gonçalo Amaral passes the counterattack after the Lisbon Court of the relationship absolve the case against the McCanns. The judges judges consider that the former Inspector of Judicial Police does not have to pay 500,000 euros in damages and may re-sell in stores his book "Maddie: The Truth of the Lie" and a documentary issued by TVI, revoking the decision the Civil Court of Lisbon.
The ratio considers that Gonçalo Amaral has exercised his right to opinion, not being obliged to secrecy to be retired.
In the book, the author argues that Maddie's parents were involved in the disappearance and concealment of the child's corpse, removing the abduction theory.
To continue reading the article, click here (Free access: just use the code that is on the cover of the magazine and the Express can use the Express app - iOS and Android - to photograph the code and access will be granted soon.)
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 20, 2016, 06:49:03 AM
MOD NOTE Please be civil to each other and stick to the topic. Thanks!
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 07:32:51 AM
A fascist state which highly values freedom of opinion and expression? That's a new one.
A hallmark of a fascist state is one that supports the 'right' to accuse without foundation, which is precisely what Amaral's book does ...
Worse, it accuses in the face of foundation that directly confounds or contradicts the central tenets of the case.
How much more stark can it get than that the present (joint) enquiry holds out hope of finding Madeleine alive, when Amaral's book accuses the McCanns of direct involvement in Madeleine's death, knowing she is dead, covering up the 'fact' of her death and launching a fraudulent 'fund' in their (dead!) daughter's name.
Fascist and obscene (which is, of course, tautological, because everything fascist is, by definition, obscene) ...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 07:36:16 AM
A hallmark of a fascist state is one that supports the 'right' to accuse without foundation, which is precisely what Amaral's book does ...
Worse, it accuses in the face of foundation that directly confounds or contradicts the central tenets of the case.
How much more stark can it get than that the present (joint) enquiry holds out hope of finding Madeleine alive, when Amaral's book accuses the McCanns of direct involvement in Madeleine's death, knowing she is dead, covering up the 'fact' of her death and launching a fraudulent 'fund' in their (dead!) daughter's name.
Fascist and obscene (which is, of course, tautological, because everything fascist is, by definition, obscene ...
You were quite happy with the last verdict and the one involving Cipriano.
Portugal is a DEMOCRACY.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 20, 2016, 07:39:34 AM
A fascist state which highly values freedom of opinion and expression? That's a new one.
a fascist state that allows a policeman to libel two innocent parents but when a journalist criticised a politician...he was I believe jailed...that sort of fascist state
Defamation and libel are criminal offenses under Articles 180 and 181 of the penal code, and penalties are increased by one half if the offended party is a public official. In May 2013, journalist Miguel Sousa Tavares was under investigation for a comment he made during an interview with Jornal de Negocios calling President Aníbal Cavaco Silva a clown. He faces up to three years in prison if found guilty
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 07:42:21 AM
You were quite happy with the last verdict and the one involving Cipriano.
Portugal is a DEMOCRACY.
ferryman { modified } would be thrilled if the mcanns won but now he is being a bitter person and a sore loser because his heros lost and the likes of ferry and davel must remember the mcanns left the children GA didnt
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 07:48:11 AM
How can the present joint enquiry hold out hope of finding Madeleine alive; Amaral write a book accusing the McCanns of direct involvement in Madeleine's death (and covering up the alleged 'fact' of her death) and this judgement be anything other than a hallmark of facism?
Answers on a postcard ...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 07:54:02 AM
Like it or loathe it, a judgement which upholds the right to accuse and traduce in the face of all known facts is a fascist judgement, nothing more or less ...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 20, 2016, 07:56:32 AM
Like it or loathe it, a judgement which upholds the right to accuse and traduce in the face of all known facts is a fascist judgement, nothing more or less ...
absolutely...a book written by a convicted liar
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 20, 2016, 07:57:42 AM
You do realize from the comments sections in the papers how much the mccanns are disliked, don't you.
You do realise that you are making yourself look a fool saying that the comments in the papers actually reflect what everyone thinks don't you?
They can spam all they like, actually half of them don't seem to understand what Amaral has won, a lot of them just say 'I wouldn't have left my children alone' the usual comments.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 08:11:12 AM
You do realise that you are making yourself look a fool saying that the comments in the papers actually reflect what everyone thinks don't you?
They can spam all they like, actually half of them don't seem to understand what Amaral has won, a lot of them just say 'I wouldn't have left my children alone' the usual comments.
Not in the slightest.
You are in a dream if you believe the mccanns have popular support.
It is you making a fool of yourself.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 20, 2016, 08:12:38 AM
You do realise that you are making yourself look a fool saying that the comments in the papers actually reflect what everyone thinks don't you?
They can spam all they like, actually half of them don't seem to understand what Amaral has won, a lot of them just say 'I wouldn't have left my children alone' the usual comments.
absolutely true
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on April 20, 2016, 08:14:15 AM
You are in a dream if you believe the mccanns have popular support.
It is you making a fool of yourself.
There are millions of people in this country alone Stephen, if you think some anti hate mob are speaking for everyone then you really need to get out more.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 08:14:50 AM
...
There is only burning injustice to see (in this latest judgement).
Any other perspective is blinkered, distorted and plain wrong ...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 08:15:22 AM
The mccanns are responsible for what happened in this case.
So you tell me then, where is Madeleine to be found ?
There you go, you mimic what they say in the comment page of the red tops 'I wouldn't leave my children alone, the McCann's are responsible' usual comments. DOH.
SY are investigating where Madeleine will be found Stephen wake up.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 08:20:57 AM
you seem to think this ruling affects what people can say in the uk...it doesn't
So will the mccanns sue Sky News and the 2 reviewers ?
By the way, I've recorded the newspaper review.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 08:29:51 AM
and lace since you cant search for youself heres your cite
The former police chief had previously been ordered to pay Kate and Gerry McCann £395,000 in damages in April last year after accusing them of faking their daughter's abduction.
The appeal decision now paves the way for Mr Amaral's book ‘The Truth of the Lie’ to be sold again in the shops in what would be a devastating setback for the McCanns.
Editor Guerra e Paz are expected to rush out new copies so they can hit the shelves next week, netting Amaral a potential fortune.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3547951/Portuguese-detective-WINS-appeal-against-libel-defeat-Madeleine-McCann-s-parents-NOT-pay-500-000-damages.html#ixzz46L[Name removed]CZpb Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on April 20, 2016, 08:30:02 AM
...
I think it is very different to when they "won" the last trial. The sceptics didn't go full on attack mode then.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 20, 2016, 08:31:25 AM
and lace since you cant search for youself heres your cite
The former police chief had previously been ordered to pay Kate and Gerry McCann £395,000 in damages in April last year after accusing them of faking their daughter's abduction.
The appeal decision now paves the way for Mr Amaral's book ‘The Truth of the Lie’ to be sold again in the shops in what would be a devastating setback for the McCanns.
Editor Guerra e Paz are expected to rush out new copies so they can hit the shelves next week, netting Amaral a potential fortune.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3547951/Portuguese-detective-WINS-appeal-against-libel-defeat-Madeleine-McCann-s-parents-NOT-pay-500-000-damages.html#ixzz46L[Name removed]CZpb Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
The McCann's had better get their appeal in quick then, I believe they are appealing to the Supreme Court.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 08:32:16 AM
There are millions of people in this country alone Stephen, if you think some anti hate mob are speaking for everyone then you really need to get out more.
I think you need to accept that many of those who believed the McCanns at first have changed their minds. The McCanns had tremendous support at the beginning but it has slowly disappeared. Kate's bike ride fundraiser demonstrated this because she struggled to reach her target and only reached it weeks after the event.
By comparison Amaral's fund, set up by Leanne Baulch exceeded it's target spectacularly. Not because everyone subscribed to his theory, not because they were duped and lied to by him but because many felt they had been duped and lied to by the McCanns.
They had begun to look like people who would countenance no dissent. If anyone questioned their version of events they were Carter-Rucked or they were labelled 'vile trolls' and 'sad inadequate people sitting in their bedrooms pouring out hate'. People began to own up to being trolls and being proud of it. They donated to Amaral's Fund as much to teach the McCanns a lesson as to help him. No-one knew if he would win, but they hoped he would and they made it possible for him to have that chance.
It now appears more than coincidental that the 'Madeleine may be alive' story emerged just before the 'McCanns lose appeal story'. A pattern has emerged over the years of encouraging stories being written just as discouraging stories are written. I wonder if they call DCS Duthie 'Mick'?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 08:54:09 AM
I think you need to accept that many of those who believed the McCanns at first have changed their minds. The McCanns had tremendous support at the beginning but it has slowly disappeared. Kate's bike ride fundraiser demonstrated this because she struggled to reach her target and only reached it weeks after the event.
By comparison Amaral's fund, set up by Leanne Baulch exceeded it's target spectacularly. Not because everyone subscribed to his theory, not because they were duped and lied to by him but because many felt they had been duped and lied to by the McCanns.
They had begun to look like people who would countenance no dissent. If anyone questioned their version of events they were Carter-Rucked or they were labelled 'vile trolls' and 'sad inadequate people sitting in their bedrooms pouring out hate'. People began to own up to being trolls and being proud of it. They donated to Amaral's Fund as much to teach the McCanns a lesson as to help him. No-one knew if he would win, but they hoped he would and they made it possible for him to have that chance.
It now appears more than coincidental that the 'Madeleine may be alive' story emerged just before the 'McCanns lose appeal story'. A pattern has emerged over the years of encouraging stories being written just as discouraging stories are written. I wonder if they call DCS Duthie 'Mick'?
8@??)( sums it up perfectly
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 08:57:23 AM
I think you need to accept that many of those who believed the McCanns at first have changed their minds. The McCanns had tremendous support at the beginning but it has slowly disappeared. Kate's bike ride fundraiser demonstrated this because she struggled to reach her target and only reached it weeks after the event.
By comparison Amaral's fund, set up by Leanne Baulch exceeded it's target spectacularly. Not because everyone subscribed to his theory, not because they were duped and lied to by him but because many felt they had been duped and lied to by the McCanns.
They had begun to look like people who would countenance no dissent. If anyone questioned their version of events they were Carter-Rucked or they were labelled 'vile trolls' and 'sad inadequate people sitting in their bedrooms pouring out hate'. People began to own up to being trolls and being proud of it. They donated to Amaral's Fund as much to teach the McCanns a lesson as to help him. No-one knew if he would win, but they hoped he would and they made it possible for him to have that chance.
It now appears more than coincidental that the 'Madeleine may be alive' story emerged just before the 'McCanns lose appeal story'. A pattern has emerged over the years of encouraging stories being written just as discouraging stories are written. I wonder if they call DCS Duthie 'Mick'?
8@??)( 8@??)(
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 09:04:40 AM
If, indeed, the present joint enquiry finds Madeleine alive and Amaral counter-sues, fascism will be alive-and-well in Portugal ....
There is no joint inquiry as you well know. Isn't it against the rules to post misinformation? 'Always the possibilty that we will find Madeleine' doesn't translate as 'We're hot on the heels of a perpetrator' as you seem to believe. We hope we find her alive' doesn't mean 'we think she is alive' either. You seemed quite happy with Portuguese justice after the initial judgement. Strange how people can change their minds about things.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 20, 2016, 09:09:27 AM
If, indeed, the present joint enquiry finds Madeleine alive and Amaral counter-sues, fascism will be alive-and-well in Portugal ....
Just picked this as a single example of something that is annoying me.
The idea that I live in a fascist country is nonsense, IMO. For those who want to categorise Portugal as a fascist country in its entirety, start providing some cites.
For those who wish to categorise this court decision as a fascist decision, stop asserting this and start providing some supporting evidence.
My personal background on this is that I believed the decision would be upheld but with the amount reduced. My recent visitor to Luz thought Amaral would win. So I 'lost' and my visitor 'won'.
For the record, I have left every single post on this describing Portugal as a fascist country intact, while deleting dozens. But I have had enough. If you wish to describe where I live as a fascist country, or the decision as a fascist decision, please do not be affronted if I choose to challenge your ideas, not as a Mod but merely as a commentator.
This is not directed at Ferryman in particular. It is a general message to those spraying 'fascist country' or 'fascist decision' about.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on April 20, 2016, 09:33:53 AM
Just picked this as a single example of something that is annoying me.
The idea that I live in a fascist country is nonsense, IMO. For those who want to categorise Portugal as a fascist country in its entirety, start providing some cites.
For those who wish to categorise this court decision as a fascist decision, stop asserting this and start providing some supporting evidence.
My personal background on this is that I believed the decision would be upheld but with the amount reduced. My recent visitor to Luz thought Amaral would win. So I 'lost' and my visitor 'won'.
For the record, I have left every single post on this describing Portugal as a fascist country intact, while deleting dozens. But I have had enough. If you wish to describe where I live as a fascist country, or the decision as a fascist decision, please do not be affronted if I choose to challenge your ideas, not as a Mod but merely as a commentator.
This is not directed at Ferryman in particular. It is a general message to those spraying 'fascist country' or 'fascist decision' about.
As a Portuguese citizen I applaud your comment. 8@??)(
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 20, 2016, 09:33:56 AM
Have you read the full decision ferryman?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on April 20, 2016, 09:40:41 AM
a fascist state that allows a policeman to libel two innocent parents but when a journalist criticised a politician...he was I believe jailed...that sort of fascist state
Defamation and libel are criminal offenses under Articles 180 and 181 of the penal code, and penalties are increased by one half if the offended party is a public official. In May 2013, journalist Miguel Sousa Tavares was under investigation for a comment he made during an interview with Jornal de Negocios calling President Aníbal Cavaco Silva a clown. He faces up to three years in prison if found guilty
You should keep up to date on this matter. Our petty, vain and arrogant ex-president made the complaint to the authorities (as Erdogan just did in Germany) and the courts had to look into it. Needless to say, the complaint was dropped, as the court ruled that MST was using his right to freedom of expression and opinion.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 20, 2016, 09:44:38 AM
The decision exists only in the Portuguese language at the moment, the translators are squirreling away as I type this. So until such time as it can be translated, opinion as to its merits or otherwise are merely speculative.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 20, 2016, 09:45:34 AM
Just picked this as a single example of something that is annoying me.
The idea that I live in a fascist country is nonsense, IMO. For those who want to categorise Portugal as a fascist country in its entirety, start providing some cites.
For those who wish to categorise this court decision as a fascist decision, stop asserting this and start providing some supporting evidence.
My personal background on this is that I believed the decision would be upheld but with the amount reduced. My recent visitor to Luz thought Amaral would win. So I 'lost' and my visitor 'won'.
For the record, I have left every single post on this describing Portugal as a fascist country intact, while deleting dozens. But I have had enough. If you wish to describe where I live as a fascist country, or the decision as a fascist decision, please do not be affronted if I choose to challenge your ideas, not as a Mod but merely as a commentator.
This is not directed at Ferryman in particular. It is a general message to those spraying 'fascist country' or 'fascist decision' about.
Well said. Looking at the way the story has been controlled in the UK is far more worrying imo than anything which has occurred in Portugal. It is only because of the internet that people have been able to examine both sides of the story.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on April 20, 2016, 09:46:55 AM
The decision exists only in the Portuguese language at the moment, the translators are squirreling away as I type this. So until such time as it can be translated, opinion as to its merits or otherwise are merely speculative.
I have read the acordão in Portuguese and it is a very complete and scathing decision, absolutely unforgiving, refuting all of the arguments in the lower court's verdict. Enjoyable reading.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 09:53:17 AM
Apparently, what we saw yesterday was the conclusion.
There is more to come.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 20, 2016, 09:58:55 AM
I have read the acordão in Portuguese and it is a very complete and scathing decision, absolutely unforgiving, refuting all of the arguments in the lower court's verdict. Enjoyable reading.
Why go to the bother of having a lower court? If three judges can do the job ... surely far more efficient and less time consuming just to let them get on with it.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 20, 2016, 09:59:17 AM
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 20, 2016, 10:00:18 AM
I have read the acordão in Portuguese and t is a very complete and scathing decision, absolutely unforgiving, refuting all of the arguments in the lower court's verdict. Enjoyable reading.
Enjoyable reading?
The present enquiry holds out hope of finding Madeleine alive.
Amaral wrote a book accusing her parents [edited], covering up the 'fact' of her death and launching a 'fraudulent' fund in their (dead!) daughter's name.
And this latest judgement supports his 'right' to do exactly that.
The judgemement ignores the Portuguese constitution, tramples rough-shod over remedies provided in Portuguese law for violation of basic human rights, and you found it 'enjoyable reading'?
[shakes head] ....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 20, 2016, 10:02:08 AM
The reason the McCanns took the case to a civil court was because they wanted money, lots of it.
Really? They took it to court as Amaral was stating that Madeleine was dead, they wanted their child to be searched for.
All the money was going into the fund for Madeleine.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 20, 2016, 10:03:12 AM
Interesting bit in the Guardian on Line:
"Duarte said she intended to fight the decision at the supreme court, though she had not yet assembled her legal arguments".
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 10:05:53 AM
police write books around the world about cases all the time why does GA writing a book upset them so much i have many true crime books by detectives on my kindle
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 20, 2016, 10:07:28 AM
Why go to the bother of having a lower court? If three judges can do the job ... surely far more efficient and less time consuming just to let them get on with it.
I think the clue lies in the name. Appeal court, where you can appeal against judgements.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 20, 2016, 10:18:26 AM
"Duarte said she intended to fight the decision at the supreme court, though she had not yet assembled her legal arguments".
IMO only after studying the appeal court judges' ruling would it be appropriate to assemble legal arguments ... so may be interesting but not extraordinary. Mr Amaral's legal team took a considerable amount of time to assemble their appeal arguments against the libel (hotly disputed that it was libel) case lost by him (now accepted as libel that he has won his appeal ... ).
Who are these judges anyway? We know that one has had dealings with this case some years ago ...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 20, 2016, 10:19:53 AM
police write books around the world about cases all the time why does GA writing a book upset them so much i have many true crime books by detectives on my kindle
That's the problem though isn't it, he wrote as fact what hadn't been proven to be fact, even the title of the book 'The Truth of the Lie' suggests he is telling the truth and that the McCann's lied.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 20, 2016, 10:21:03 AM
Just picked this as a single example of something that is annoying me.
The idea that I live in a fascist country is nonsense, IMO. For those who want to categorise Portugal as a fascist country in its entirety, start providing some cites.
For those who wish to categorise this court decision as a fascist decision, stop asserting this and start providing some supporting evidence.
My personal background on this is that I believed the decision would be upheld but with the amount reduced. My recent visitor to Luz thought Amaral would win. So I 'lost' and my visitor 'won'.
For the record, I have left every single post on this describing Portugal as a fascist country intact, while deleting dozens. But I have had enough. If you wish to describe where I live as a fascist country, or the decision as a fascist decision, please do not be affronted if I choose to challenge your ideas, not as a Mod but merely as a commentator.
This is not directed at Ferryman in particular. It is a general message to those spraying 'fascist country' or 'fascist decision' about.
My opinion is that portugal is a fascist country..am I allowed to hold that opinion or do I have to satisfy you that it is valid...who decided you were the judge on this. Amaral has accused the mccanns of crimes with no evidence to back his claims yet this is allowed..why is that
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 10:22:10 AM
My opinion is that portugal is a fascist country..am I allowed to hold that opinion or do I have to satisfy you that it is valid...who decided you were the judge on this. Amaral has accused the mccanns of crimes with no evidence to back his claims yet this is allowed..why is that
Note the word thesis.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 10:23:48 AM
My opinion is that portugal is a fascist country..am I allowed to hold that opinion or do I have to satisfy you that it is valid...who decided you were the judge on this. Amaral has accused the mccanns of crimes with no evidence to back his claims yet this is allowed..why is that
because he is allowed his opinon and since you were not there and he was you cant judge him
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 10:25:50 AM
Reports from Portugal that Amaral will contersue the mccanns for 'moral and financial losses'.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 10:26:05 AM
...
stephen dont you think this anger at GA winning is pathetic he did his police job police are allowed to gave their own opinion and police do and see things most people of the public couldnt begin to deal with
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 10:26:38 AM
stephen good for him they totally disrupted his and his families lives
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 20, 2016, 10:26:46 AM
I think you need to accept that many of those who believed the McCanns at first have changed their minds. The McCanns had tremendous support at the beginning but it has slowly disappeared. Kate's bike ride fundraiser demonstrated this because she struggled to reach her target and only reached it weeks after the event.
By comparison Amaral's fund, set up by Leanne Baulch exceeded it's target spectacularly. Not because everyone subscribed to his theory, not because they were duped and lied to by him but because many felt they had been duped and lied to by the McCanns.
They had begun to look like people who would countenance no dissent. If anyone questioned their version of events they were Carter-Rucked or they were labelled 'vile trolls' and 'sad inadequate people sitting in their bedrooms pouring out hate'. People began to own up to being trolls and being proud of it. They donated to Amaral's Fund as much to teach the McCanns a lesson as to help him. No-one knew if he would win, but they hoped he would and they made it possible for him to have that chance.
It now appears more than coincidental that the 'Madeleine may be alive' story emerged just before the 'McCanns lose appeal story'. A pattern has emerged over the years of encouraging stories being written just as discouraging stories are written. I wonder if they call DCS Duthie 'Mick'?
Kate McCann's bike ride fundraiser was for Missing People not for herself.
The appeal for Amaral deceived people, they called it 'Justice for Madeleine' some people [as they really don't follow the case] thought that somehow Amaral was going to have the McCann's arrested when he won his appeal, even now I read on twitter 'arrests soon then' really these people have no idea. That appeal Justice for Madeleine was even put out on Madeleine's birthday which was really disgusting. I read on one of the papers comment section that one poster was watching Richard Halls video's, so you have all the conspiracy groups commenting on there, plus the nasty groups just organised to abuse the McCann's. One person who has got a petition for SY with over a thousand signatures, all of those probably commented.
They don't represent the general public, they represent the mass who have made the Madeleine case their life ambition.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 20, 2016, 10:28:17 AM
stephen dont you think this anger at GA winning is pathetic he did his police job police are allowed to gave their own opinion and police do and see things most people of the public couldnt begin to deal with
I ask again carly if the book and Amaral's accusations were aimed at you would you just ignore it?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 20, 2016, 10:30:54 AM
stephen good for him they totally disrupted his and his families lives
Amaral disrupted his family life, the McCann's did nothing to cause their marriage break up it was all Amaral's own doing, stop listening to gossip.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 10:31:10 AM
I rather fancy that most of us wouldn't put ourselves in the position where anybody would feel the need to write a book about us, any more than we would feel the need to write a book defending our action in the first place.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 10:32:31 AM
I rather fancy that most of us wouldn't put ourselves in the position where anybody would feel the need to write a book about us, any more than we would feel the need to write a book defending our action in the first place.
jinx jassi i just wrote the same thing the mcanns started all this with GA and he won and the mcanns and their supporters dont like that fact simple
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 20, 2016, 10:35:47 AM
Why go to the bother of having a lower court? If three judges can do the job ... surely far more efficient and less time consuming just to let them get on with it.
You could say that about any legal system. In ours most cases are sorted in the lower courts. Can you imagine the costs associated with your idea? https://www.cps.gov.uk/victims_witnesses/going_to_court/court_case.html
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 10:38:32 AM
You could say that about any legal system. In ours most cases are sorted in the lower courts. Can you imagine the costs associated with your idea? https://www.cps.gov.uk/victims_witnesses/going_to_court/court_case.html
alice this has been a eye opener with mcann supporters reactions imo their true colours have came out
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 10:41:50 AM
IMO only after studying the appeal court judges' ruling would it be appropriate to assemble legal arguments ... so may be interesting but not extraordinary. Mr Amaral's legal team took a considerable amount of time to assemble their appeal arguments against the libel (hotly disputed that it was libel) case lost by him (now accepted as libel that he has won his appeal ... ).
Who are these judges anyway? We know that one has had dealings with this case some years ago ...
Well yesterday the appeal was being touted by some as a done deal. It was self evident to some of us, indeed posted though it may have been whooshed, that some fancy and expensive legal tap dancing would be necessary to come up with grounds for appeal. Who are the judges anyway? Again self evident; duly appointed officers of the Portuguese judiciary. I doubt even in Portugal they make a habit of dragging itinerants off the street to sit in judgement in the court of appeal. Though I have reason to believe some posters who consider themsleves in the know, believe just that.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 20, 2016, 10:44:52 AM
It certainly seems the case that supporters only like the law when it works in their favour, or rather, that of the McCanns.
So you would ignore his book if it was directed at you?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 10:45:27 AM
There is a phone in on LBC discussing the case now.
http://www.lbc.co.uk/
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 20, 2016, 10:46:51 AM
I really can't believe the hypocrisy on this forum.
If someone says something about someone else they complain to the mods, can you imagine if someone wrote a book about them saying they hid their child's body? To say that anyone on here would just let the book go on sale and say nothing or maybe 'it's just what he thinks, never mind' is just rubbish.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 10:49:26 AM
It is the hallmark of a fascist state that it suppresses the voice of the opposition whilst promoting the voice of the powers that be. One thing Amaral definitely is not is one of the powers that be. I doubt the McCanns are seen as the opposition.
Your model is totally wrong.
How would you describe a state in which there has apparently never been a single case of a 'miscarriage of justice' - or where a court finds that a defenceless woman has been tortured whilst in police custody, but who remains in prison without even a hint of a re-trial - (in fact actually has her sentence extended!) - while the perpetrators go unpunished? Does anyone actually believe that the PT police have never made mistake? Surely not.
IMO in the scheme of things Portugal is still a very young democracy - and still has some way to go before it shakes off all its old habits. It could start with reviewing the Secrecy Laws which imo have been regularly used and abused by elements of the PJ to influence public opinion - but who then simultaneously use that same law to suppress any attempt by anyone to 'voice opposition' to that abuse by threatening them with imprisonment if they do so.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 10:52:17 AM
Kate McCann's bike ride fundraiser was for Missing People not for herself.
The appeal for Amaral deceived people, they called it 'Justice for Madeleine' some people [as they really don't follow the case] thought that somehow Amaral was going to have the McCann's arrested when he won his appeal, even now I read on twitter 'arrests soon then' really these people have no idea. That appeal Justice for Madeleine was even put out on Madeleine's birthday which was really disgusting. I read on one of the papers comment section that one poster was watching Richard Halls video's, so you have all the conspiracy groups commenting on there, plus the nasty groups just organised to abuse the McCann's. One person who has got a petition for SY with over a thousand signatures, all of those probably commented.
They don't represent the general public, they represent the mass who have made the Madeleine case their life ambition.
It desn't matter what Kate was fundraising for. Her 'name' should have helped raise money easily with all the supposed support and sympathy she allegedly enjoys. It didn't.
How is it that those who support the McCanns insist that anyone who doesn't is 'deceived' and 'doesn't understand' the case? The inference being that only the supporters are capable of recognising truth and understanding the complexities of the case. I didn't see any evidence of this superior intellect when the supporter's were predicting that Amaral had no grounds to appeal and that he would lose if he was allowed to appeal. Whoops! Now it's all the fault of a 'fascist state'. Oh dear, talk about abuse.....
The supporters don't represent the general public either, don't forget.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 10:55:30 AM
Well yesterday the appeal was being touted by some as a done deal. It was self evident to some of us, indeed posted though it may have been whooshed, that some fancy and expensive legal tap dancing would be necessary to come up with grounds for appeal. Who are the judges anyway? Again self evident; duly appointed officers of the Portuguese judiciary. I doubt even in Portugal they make a habit of dragging itinerants off the street to sit in judgement in the court of appeal. Though I have reason to believe some posters who consider themsleves in the know, believe just that.
Fancy and expensive tap-dancing?
Let's see.
Amaral has a right to say anything that's in the files (true or not).
A complication is that stuff in the files is contradicted by other stuff, also, in the files.
So it's in the files (Almeida's interim report) that Eddie 'scented death' all over the place.
And it's in the files (Grime and Harrison) that no evidential reliability can be placed on the reactions of the dogs.
Does that entitle Amaral to say Eddie 'scented death' all over the place?
Or doesn't it?
It shouldn't, because there ought to be a general acceptance that Grime and Harrison have a clearer view (and more complete understanding) of what they are talking about than Almeida.
Amaral lied (about contradicting and correcting Prior on interpretation of the forensic results).
Amaral lied (about the role and pronouncements of Mark Harrison).
Amaral says Madeleine is dead when the present enquiry says she may be alive.
Amaral thinks calpol is a 'sleeping solution' (sedative). It is not.
Amaral's final chapter directly contradicts the conclusions of the Portuguese prosecutors (from the shelved enquiry).
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 20, 2016, 10:58:40 AM
such sorrow and devastation for people they dont know isnt normal imo
I would say I am quite normal and anyone who thinks I am not must have problems of their own
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 20, 2016, 11:00:54 AM
I really feeling like doin' a George Bush Sr here ?{)(** "Now read my lips"
"The Portuguese Court of Appeal has found in Sr Amaral's favour". What posters on here feel about it, me included, is bleedin' irrelevant. It makes no difference the judgement is what it is.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 20, 2016, 11:02:00 AM
so was i they have been openly hostile and agressive why do they care so much about people they appently dont know??
Why do you hold a man you don't know in such high esteem after he was deemed by his superiors to be a liability to the investigation of a missing child?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 11:02:11 AM
I really feeling like doin' a George Bush Sr here ?{)(** "Now read my lips"
"The Portuguese Court of Appeal has found in Sr Amaral's favour". What posters on here feel about it, me included, is bleedin' irrelevant. It makes no difference the judgement is what it is.
8@??)( exactly alice and it wont change and all the wailling and knashing of teeth wont either
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 11:02:44 AM
I really feeling like doin' a George Bush Sr here ?{)(** "Now read my lips"
"The Portuguese Court of Appeal has found in Sr Amaral's favour". What posters on here feel about it, me included, is bleedin' irrelevant. It makes no difference the judgement is what it is.
PRECISELY.
A judgement has been made.
The supporters were happy and gloating last time.
They need to get over it.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 20, 2016, 11:03:07 AM
Ex-police chief who claimed McCanns covered up Maddie's death by faking her disappearance 'to sue' couple
Goncalo Amaral announces legal action, with the McCanns already reeling from losing £430k in libel fees
THE EX-police chief who claimed "the McCanns covered up Maddie's death by faking her disappearance" has announced he is planning to sue the couple for compensation in a new blow for the couple.
Goncalo Amaral yesterday won an appeal against paying the Brit parents 500,000 euros (£430,000), after a year-long battle against their libel win over his explosive book 'Maddy,The Truth of the Lie'.
The former detective, who worked on the four-year-old's disappearance case in the opening days, claimed the McCanns "covered up Maddie's death by faking her disappearance" in the hurtful book.
Gerry and Kate previously won a libel case against the damning claims, but were heartbroken last night after this was overturned by three judges in an appeal.
The parents had planned to put the £430,000 into their Find Maddie fund.
Amaral's lawyer yesterday announced after the libel U-turn he would sue the McCanns for damages, claiming the couple’s long-running court fight had cost his client money and harmed his reputation.
Miguel Cruz Rodrigues told respected Portuguese daily Expresso: “We are going to advance with a compensation claim against the McCanns.
“My client has suffered years of prejudice and losses.”
He added today: “The Lisbon appeal court decision reinforces our aim to go for a claim against the McCanns for damages over what have been years of financial losses in which my client’s good name has been called into question.”
His claims came just hours after Guerra e Paz, editor of ‘The Truth of the Lie’, announced it would try to rush out new copies of Amaral’s book by next week.
The nightmare scenario for the McCanns paves the way for the book, which Kate McCann has described in court as “devastating and distressing” to go on sale throughout Europe.
The appeal judges said Amaral’s right to express his opinions overruled any duty of confidentiality he had as an ex-police chief heading the Madeleine McCann investigation once the case files, made available on the Internet by Portuguese authorities, were put into the public domain.
The retired detective, who was removed as head of the investigation into Madeleine’s May 3 2007 disappearance after criticising British detectives, had always denied defamation.
The judge concluded he played on his status as a long-serving police officer to present personal opinions and claims about the high-profile case as fact.
The McCanns’ Portuguese lawyer Isabel Duarte has already said she will fight the libel U-turn by appealing to the country’s Supreme Court.
She has 30 days to submit the appeal.
A friend of the couple said they were “seething” over the appeal ruling.
Spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: “The process is not over yet. It is a matter for Kate and Gerry’s lawyers to deal with.”
Ms Duarte said: “This decision was an appreciation of the law and not the facts.
“We can appeal to the Supreme Court which we will do as we have instructions from our clients.”
Amaral is understood to have earned 400,000 euros (£316,000) from his book before it was banned and a subsequent TV documentary.
He claimed in the book Madeleine, who was three when she disappeared from the McCanns’ Algarve holiday apartment, had died in the flat and they had faked her abduction to cover up the tragedy.
The book was released just three days after Gerry and Kate were told their status as arguidos or formal suspects had been lifted on July 21 2008.
The McCanns told the Lisbon court staging the Amaral libel trial in the summer of 2014 they were left “devastated and crushed” by his allegations.
Kate, 48, from Rothley, Leics, said Madeleine’s twin siblings Sean and Amelie, now 11, knew about Amaral’s allegations.
She told the court in July 2014 after applying to make a statement: “I believe that’s what's in Mr Amaral’s book and the documentary is very distressing to adults. To a child it could be very damaging.”
Asked by the judge how she felt after reading the book, she said: “I was devastated. It made me feel quite desperate because of the injustice I felt towards my daughter and our family as a whole.
“It was very painful to read and I felt sad for Madeleine. I also felt anxious and fearful because of the damage I felt it was doing in Portugal.”
She went on to accuse Amaral of “consistently smearing” her and Gerry and claimed they feared the book may have stopped people coming forward with information about their daughter’s whereabouts.
The ex-police chief always denied defamation, insisting what he wrote was based on case files which had already been made public.
Amaral’s lawyer Miguel Cruz Rodrigues claimed in court the McCanns had taken legal action against his client “to rid themselves of guilt for their negligent conduct” in leaving Madeleine and her siblings alone while they ate tapas with friends nearby.
He also claimed their lack of cooperation with the Portuguese police authorities had led to the archiving of the investigation in 2008.
Portuguese prosecutors reopened their probe into Madeleine McCann’s disappearance in May 2014.
Why do you hold a man you don't know in such high esteem after he was deemed by his superiors to be a liability to the investigation of a missing child?
He was case coordinator for 3 months.
He was removed after complaining about interference in the case.
Try to be accurate.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 20, 2016, 11:04:28 AM
Amaral has a right to say anything that's in the files (true or not).
A complication is that stuff in the files is contradicted by other stuff, also, in the files.
So it's in the files (Almeida's interim report) that Eddie 'scented death' all over the place.
And it's in the files (Grime and Harrison) that no evidential reliability can be placed on the reactions of the dogs.
Does that entitle Amaral to say Eddie 'scented death' all over the place?
Or doesn't it?
It shouldn't, because there ought to be a general acceptance that Grime and Harrison have a clearer view (and more complete understanding) of what they are talking about than Almeida.
Amaral lied (about contradicting and correcting Prior on interpretation of the forensic results).
Amaral lied (about the role and pronouncements of Mark Harrison).
Amaral says Madeleine is dead when the present enquiry says she may be alive.
Amaral thinks calpol is a 'sleeping solution' (sedative). It is not.
Amaral's final chapter directly contradicts the conclusions of the Portuguese prosecutors (from the shelved enquiry).
The lower court was NOT INTERESTED in arguments about the dogs when Gerry McCann tried to talk about them. I don't think it was interested in any of the other stuff you are going on about either. They belong on a thread about the contents of the book, not one about the appeal going Amaral's way.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 11:04:38 AM
they shouldnt get excited about a supreme court either after all they owe GA and the courts all the cort fees and the jury panel all agreed with each other
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 11:04:51 AM
Similar to the ones who perpetually spout Portugal is a fascist state, Grime is a charlatan and Amaral is ......well choose your expression, I expect don't you?
Strawman.
I said that this judgement has all the hallmarks of fascism.
I said that because it does.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 11:05:15 AM
Ex-police chief who claimed McCanns covered up Maddie's death by faking her disappearance 'to sue' couple
Goncalo Amaral announces legal action, with the McCanns already reeling from losing £430k in libel fees
THE EX-police chief who claimed "the McCanns covered up Maddie's death by faking her disappearance" has announced he is planning to sue the couple for compensation in a new blow for the couple.
Goncalo Amaral yesterday won an appeal against paying the Brit parents 500,000 euros (£430,000), after a year-long battle against their libel win over his explosive book 'Maddy,The Truth of the Lie'.
The former detective, who worked on the four-year-old's disappearance case in the opening days, claimed the McCanns "covered up Maddie's death by faking her disappearance" in the hurtful book.
Gerry and Kate previously won a libel case against the damning claims, but were heartbroken last night after this was overturned by three judges in an appeal.
The parents had planned to put the £430,000 into their Find Maddie fund.
Amaral's lawyer yesterday announced after the libel U-turn he would sue the McCanns for damages, claiming the couple’s long-running court fight had cost his client money and harmed his reputation.
Miguel Cruz Rodrigues told respected Portuguese daily Expresso: “We are going to advance with a compensation claim against the McCanns.
“My client has suffered years of prejudice and losses.”
He added today: “The Lisbon appeal court decision reinforces our aim to go for a claim against the McCanns for damages over what have been years of financial losses in which my client’s good name has been called into question.”
His claims came just hours after Guerra e Paz, editor of ‘The Truth of the Lie’, announced it would try to rush out new copies of Amaral’s book by next week.
The nightmare scenario for the McCanns paves the way for the book, which Kate McCann has described in court as “devastating and distressing” to go on sale throughout Europe.
The appeal judges said Amaral’s right to express his opinions overruled any duty of confidentiality he had as an ex-police chief heading the Madeleine McCann investigation once the case files, made available on the Internet by Portuguese authorities, were put into the public domain.
The retired detective, who was removed as head of the investigation into Madeleine’s May 3 2007 disappearance after criticising British detectives, had always denied defamation.
The judge concluded he played on his status as a long-serving police officer to present personal opinions and claims about the high-profile case as fact.
The McCanns’ Portuguese lawyer Isabel Duarte has already said she will fight the libel U-turn by appealing to the country’s Supreme Court.
She has 30 days to submit the appeal.
A friend of the couple said they were “seething” over the appeal ruling.
Spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: “The process is not over yet. It is a matter for Kate and Gerry’s lawyers to deal with.”
Ms Duarte said: “This decision was an appreciation of the law and not the facts.
“We can appeal to the Supreme Court which we will do as we have instructions from our clients.”
Amaral is understood to have earned 400,000 euros (£316,000) from his book before it was banned and a subsequent TV documentary.
He claimed in the book Madeleine, who was three when she disappeared from the McCanns’ Algarve holiday apartment, had died in the flat and they had faked her abduction to cover up the tragedy.
The book was released just three days after Gerry and Kate were told their status as arguidos or formal suspects had been lifted on July 21 2008.
The McCanns told the Lisbon court staging the Amaral libel trial in the summer of 2014 they were left “devastated and crushed” by his allegations.
Kate, 48, from Rothley, Leics, said Madeleine’s twin siblings Sean and Amelie, now 11, knew about Amaral’s allegations.
She told the court in July 2014 after applying to make a statement: “I believe that’s what's in Mr Amaral’s book and the documentary is very distressing to adults. To a child it could be very damaging.”
Asked by the judge how she felt after reading the book, she said: “I was devastated. It made me feel quite desperate because of the injustice I felt towards my daughter and our family as a whole.
“It was very painful to read and I felt sad for Madeleine. I also felt anxious and fearful because of the damage I felt it was doing in Portugal.”
She went on to accuse Amaral of “consistently smearing” her and Gerry and claimed they feared the book may have stopped people coming forward with information about their daughter’s whereabouts.
The ex-police chief always denied defamation, insisting what he wrote was based on case files which had already been made public.
Amaral’s lawyer Miguel Cruz Rodrigues claimed in court the McCanns had taken legal action against his client “to rid themselves of guilt for their negligent conduct” in leaving Madeleine and her siblings alone while they ate tapas with friends nearby.
He also claimed their lack of cooperation with the Portuguese police authorities had led to the archiving of the investigation in 2008.
Portuguese prosecutors reopened their probe into Madeleine McCann’s disappearance in May 2014.
Ex-police chief who claimed McCanns covered up Maddie's death by faking her disappearance 'to sue' couple
Goncalo Amaral announces legal action, with the McCanns already reeling from losing £430k in libel fees
THE EX-police chief who claimed "the McCanns covered up Maddie's death by faking her disappearance" has announced he is planning to sue the couple for compensation in a new blow for the couple.
Goncalo Amaral yesterday won an appeal against paying the Brit parents 500,000 euros (£430,000), after a year-long battle against their libel win over his explosive book 'Maddy,The Truth of the Lie'.
The former detective, who worked on the four-year-old's disappearance case in the opening days, claimed the McCanns "covered up Maddie's death by faking her disappearance" in the hurtful book.
Gerry and Kate previously won a libel case against the damning claims, but were heartbroken last night after this was overturned by three judges in an appeal.
The parents had planned to put the £430,000 into their Find Maddie fund.
Amaral's lawyer yesterday announced after the libel U-turn he would sue the McCanns for damages, claiming the couple’s long-running court fight had cost his client money and harmed his reputation.
Miguel Cruz Rodrigues told respected Portuguese daily Expresso: “We are going to advance with a compensation claim against the McCanns.
“My client has suffered years of prejudice and losses.”
He added today: “The Lisbon appeal court decision reinforces our aim to go for a claim against the McCanns for damages over what have been years of financial losses in which my client’s good name has been called into question.”
His claims came just hours after Guerra e Paz, editor of ‘The Truth of the Lie’, announced it would try to rush out new copies of Amaral’s book by next week.
The nightmare scenario for the McCanns paves the way for the book, which Kate McCann has described in court as “devastating and distressing” to go on sale throughout Europe.
The appeal judges said Amaral’s right to express his opinions overruled any duty of confidentiality he had as an ex-police chief heading the Madeleine McCann investigation once the case files, made available on the Internet by Portuguese authorities, were put into the public domain.
The retired detective, who was removed as head of the investigation into Madeleine’s May 3 2007 disappearance after criticising British detectives, had always denied defamation.
The judge concluded he played on his status as a long-serving police officer to present personal opinions and claims about the high-profile case as fact.
The McCanns’ Portuguese lawyer Isabel Duarte has already said she will fight the libel U-turn by appealing to the country’s Supreme Court.
She has 30 days to submit the appeal.
A friend of the couple said they were “seething” over the appeal ruling.
Spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: “The process is not over yet. It is a matter for Kate and Gerry’s lawyers to deal with.”
Ms Duarte said: “This decision was an appreciation of the law and not the facts.
“We can appeal to the Supreme Court which we will do as we have instructions from our clients.”
Amaral is understood to have earned 400,000 euros (£316,000) from his book before it was banned and a subsequent TV documentary.
He claimed in the book Madeleine, who was three when she disappeared from the McCanns’ Algarve holiday apartment, had died in the flat and they had faked her abduction to cover up the tragedy.
The book was released just three days after Gerry and Kate were told their status as arguidos or formal suspects had been lifted on July 21 2008.
The McCanns told the Lisbon court staging the Amaral libel trial in the summer of 2014 they were left “devastated and crushed” by his allegations.
Kate, 48, from Rothley, Leics, said Madeleine’s twin siblings Sean and Amelie, now 11, knew about Amaral’s allegations.
She told the court in July 2014 after applying to make a statement: “I believe that’s what's in Mr Amaral’s book and the documentary is very distressing to adults. To a child it could be very damaging.”
Asked by the judge how she felt after reading the book, she said: “I was devastated. It made me feel quite desperate because of the injustice I felt towards my daughter and our family as a whole.
“It was very painful to read and I felt sad for Madeleine. I also felt anxious and fearful because of the damage I felt it was doing in Portugal.”
She went on to accuse Amaral of “consistently smearing” her and Gerry and claimed they feared the book may have stopped people coming forward with information about their daughter’s whereabouts.
The ex-police chief always denied defamation, insisting what he wrote was based on case files which had already been made public.
Amaral’s lawyer Miguel Cruz Rodrigues claimed in court the McCanns had taken legal action against his client “to rid themselves of guilt for their negligent conduct” in leaving Madeleine and her siblings alone while they ate tapas with friends nearby.
He also claimed their lack of cooperation with the Portuguese police authorities had led to the archiving of the investigation in 2008.
Portuguese prosecutors reopened their probe into Madeleine McCann’s disappearance in May 2014.
I really can't believe the hypocrisy on this forum.
If someone says something about someone else they complain to the mods, can you imagine if someone wrote a book about them saying they hid their child's body? To say that anyone on here would just let the book go on sale and say nothing or maybe 'it's just what he thinks, never mind' is just rubbish.
That is in the official police files and they were never cleared. You don't get cleared by not cooperating with the police.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 20, 2016, 11:08:53 AM
The lower court was NOT INTERESTED in arguments about the dogs when Gerry McCann tried to talk about them. I don't think it was interested in any of the other stuff you are going on about either. They belong on a thread about the contents of the book, not one about the appeal going Amaral's way.
In a libel trial, Amaral's (firmly established) misrepresentations of truth (also lies, if he knew them to be untrue; incompetence, if he didn't) don't matter?
If that's so (and the evidence of this ruling tends to suggest it might be) the next logical step (for Portugal) would be wholesale abolition of its libel laws, together with removal (from its constitution) of that provision that defends the right of citizens to a good name.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 11:12:02 AM
"My client's good name has been called into question."
So has that of The McCanns. Stalemate, anyone? Sauce for the goose and all that.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 11:13:13 AM
My opinion is that portugal is a fascist country..am I allowed to hold that opinion or do I have to satisfy you that it is valid...who decided you were the judge on this. Amaral has accused the mccanns of crimes with no evidence to back his claims yet this is allowed..why is that
You are free to publish your opinion on here, subject to the forum rules.
T'would be nice if those claiming Portugal is a fascist country actually backed up that assertion with some evidence.
Or am I permitted to assert that England is a (insert your insult here) country, without supporting such a claim?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 11:20:44 AM
Amaral stated it as fact when nothing had been proven and in fact SY are searching for a child they hope will still be alive.
He also said 100% DNA of Madeleine found, which was a complete lie.
PRELIMINARY RESULTS
PREPARATION FOR THE INTERROGATIONS
Analyses of the residues collected following the visit by the dogs is entrusted to the English Forensic Science Service laboratory. To avoid any leaks of information, Stuart Prior, a senior officer with Leicestershire police, is responsible for liaison between the laboratory and José Freitas of Scotland Yard. The latter, who is with us, in Portimão, is passing on any relevant reports.
We confidently wait for the evaluation reports from FSS. A few days after the samples are sent, we are informed that the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns’ car shows a significant match – 50% – with Gerald’s, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children. We telephone the public minister to pass on this initial result and wait for the follow-up to the analyses and definite conclusions But the laboratory takes its time.
Read more Chapter 18 TOTL
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 11:25:37 AM
There is a phone in on LBC discussing the case now.
http://www.lbc.co.uk/
I listened in Stephen, laughed when he said it draws in very strange people, apparently the person before had accused him of being 'in on it' see what I mean when I say these people will look and sound very very silly to the general public?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 20, 2016, 11:27:51 AM
This game is played by local Portuguese rules, not local British ones ... so work it out, please.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 11:27:58 AM
so let me put this out here now GA will be allowed to sell truth of the lies from next week he is going to sue gerry and kate they have to pay his and their own court fees etc??? also they wont get his money they wanted is that about right
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 20, 2016, 11:28:09 AM
Analyses of the residues collected following the visit by the dogs is entrusted to the English Forensic Science Service laboratory. To avoid any leaks of information, Stuart Prior, a senior officer with Leicestershire police, is responsible for liaison between the laboratory and José Freitas of Scotland Yard. The latter, who is with us, in Portimão, is passing on any relevant reports.
We confidently wait for the evaluation reports from FSS. A few days after the samples are sent, we are informed that the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns’ car shows a significant match – 50% – with Gerald’s, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children. We telephone the public minister to pass on this initial result and wait for the follow-up to the analyses and definite conclusions But the laboratory takes its time.
Read more Chapter 18 TOTL
That is absolute rubbish!!!! The only blood found to be Gerry's was on the key fob.
The swab in the boot of the car was a mix of three even five people.
Do you still believe this? have you read the forensic report?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 20, 2016, 11:28:24 AM
Would you care to give the precise dates from start to finish ?
I note you don't dispute that he was removed for objecting to interference in the case.
You know the dates - and even you can't make them total only 3 months. He objected via the press. Was that not inviting public scrutiny, contrary to Secrecy Laws?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 11:28:57 AM
I listened in Stephen, laughed when he said it draws in very strange people, apparently the person before had accused him of being 'in on it' see what I mean when I say these people will look and sound very very silly to the general public?
Everything in context Lace.
I recall when Mr. O'Brien said some time ago on LBC when he stated people were jealous of kate mccanns beauty.
8)--))
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 20, 2016, 11:29:35 AM
You know the dates - and even you can't make them total only 3 months. He objected via the press. Was that not inviting public scrutiny, contrary to Secrecy Laws?
I don't know the exact dates.
Perhaps you can remind me.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 11:34:08 AM
John would not allow amaral to post his views on here as they would be libellous and therefore against forum rules
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 11:40:25 AM
Everyone has the right to a good name, according to Portugal. Even Cops and Robbers. Everyone except The McCanns it seems. So what is Amaral going to sue them for? The same as he did? That should be interesting.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 11:41:02 AM
Everyone has the right to a good name, according to Portugal. Even Cops and Robbers. Everyone except The McCanns it seems. So what is Amaral going to sue them for? The same as he did? That should be interesting.
Let's see what happens.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 11:41:14 AM
If we leave the EU, I have heard that wee will withdraw from the European convention of human rights.
We wouldn't be having this conversation if the libel trial had been held in England or almost any other country in the civilised world.
The trial was held in Portugal. The verdict was delivered in Portugal. The appeal was heard in Portugal. The appeal against the verdict of the lower court was upheld in Portugal.
The appeal against that will be heard or not as the case may be ... in Portugal.
Absolutely nothing at all to do with whether or not we leave Europe ... Portugal has no plans to leave as far as I know. I think the European Court of Human Rights might very well be quite 'right on' as far as section 6 is concerned; certainly more so than the appeal court judges in Portugal seem to be.
The fat lady has not sung yet.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 11:42:50 AM
We wouldn't be having this conversation if the libel trial had been held in England or almost any other country in the civilised world.
The trial was held in Portugal. The verdict was delivered in Portugal. The appeal was heard in Portugal. The appeal against the verdict of the lower court was upheld in Portugal.
The appeal against that will be heard or not as the case may be ... in Portugal.
Absolutely nothing at all to do with whether or not we leave Europe ... Portugal has no plans to leave as far as I know. I think the European Court of Human Rights might very well be quite 'right on' as far as section 6 is concerned; certainly more so than the appeal court judges in Portugal seem to be.
The fat lady has not sung yet.
You seem very angry Brietta.
Why is that I wonder ?
Any appeal of course has to be accepted for transfer to the Supreme Court.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 11:43:53 AM
Everyone has the right to a good name, according to Portugal. Even Cops and Robbers. Everyone except The McCanns it seems. So what is Amaral going to sue them for? The same as he did? That should be interesting.
Loss of earning, perhaps. Didn't he have all his assets frozen?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 20, 2016, 11:44:03 AM
How would you describe a state in which there has apparently never been a single case of a 'miscarriage of justice' - or where a court finds that a defenceless woman has been tortured whilst in police custody, but who remains in prison without even a hint of a re-trial - (in fact actually has her sentence extended!) - while the perpetrators go unpunished? Does anyone actually believe that the PT police have never made mistake? Surely not.
IMO in the scheme of things Portugal is still a very young democracy - and still has some way to go before it shakes off all its old habits. It could start with reviewing the Secrecy Laws which imo have been regularly used and abused by elements of the PJ to influence public opinion - but who then simultaneously use that same law to suppress any attempt by anyone to 'voice opposition' to that abuse by threatening them with imprisonment if they do so.
There are flaws, left right and centre, in how Portugal works.
There are flaws, left right and centre, in how England works. Which does not make England a fascist state.
I have no issue in saying what is wrong with Portugal. I have no issue in saying what is wrong with Luz. I'd just like it to be accurate.
For those interested, the 3rd Luz triathlon is up on Saturday.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 20, 2016, 11:44:14 AM
so let me put this out here now GA will be allowed to sell truth of the lies from next week he is going to sue gerry and kate they have to pay his and their own court fees etc??? also they wont get his money they wanted is that about right
Pretty much! But you will note how the supporters are now delighting in talking about irrelevancies to avoid the main issue. The original judgement against Sr Amaral has been turned over by three appeal court judges and Dra Duarte is yet to work out whether she has adequate grounds of appeal. The defence by the supporters is the implication that Portugal is a banana republic without a real judicial system so somehow it does not really count. But remind me where the case was being tried and whose judicial system has primacy...............?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 11:47:29 AM
Pretty much! But you will note how the supporters are now delighting in talking about irrelevancies to avoid the main issue. The original judgement against Sr Amaral has been turned over by three appeal court judges and Dra Duarte is yet to work out whether she has adequate grounds of appeal. The defence by the supporters is the implication that Portugal is a banana republic without a real judicial system so somehow it does not really count. But remind me where the case was being tried and whose judicial system has primacy...............?
i just find it really ironic they started this what 6 years ago and now are the losers in everything @)(++(* karmas a you know what 8)-)))
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 20, 2016, 11:52:59 AM
Any appeal of course has to be accepted for transfer to the Supreme Court.
I have stated the facts ... if you can refute them, fine ... it seems you cannot.
I have said in my post that the appeal is not a done deal yet.
Once I would have rejected out of hand your suggestion that the appeal would not have been accepted by the Supreme Court as I had certain expectations of the Portuguese legal system working within a modern democracy.
I really don't think that anymore and I am probably not the only observer taking note of the implication here.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 11:53:19 AM
I have stated the facts ... if you can refute them, fine ... it seems you cannot.
I have said in my post that the appeal is not a done deal yet.
Once I would have rejected out of hand your suggestion that the appeal would not have been accepted by the Supreme Court as I had certain expectations of the Portuguese legal system working within a modern democracy.
I really don't think that anymore and I am probably not the only observer taking note of the implication here.
We shall see what happens.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 11:56:07 AM
Is it known how long the McCanns have to submit their case to the Supreme Court?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 11:57:42 AM
i just find it really ironic they started this what 6 years ago and now are the losers in everything @)(++(* karmas a you know what 8)-)))
Goading again are we carly?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 20, 2016, 11:59:30 AM
Was there ever a version of TTOTL published in English for worldwide sale? Certainly other versions were banned, but only for short periods of time & in certain countries.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 11:59:45 AM
By the precedent of Amaral, about the next 5 years?
I was meaning the time window of opportunity to apply, not how long it might drag on 8)--))
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 20, 2016, 12:00:21 PM
All who are glad Amaral has won must all agree with his book, and therefore believe Madeleine to be dead, a child who could be out there waiting to be found. Thank god SY are searching for her.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 20, 2016, 12:00:58 PM
i just find it really ironic they started this what 6 years ago and now are the losers in everything @)(++(* karmas a you know what 8)-)))
Karma for the parents of a missing child, who wanted the book banned because it stated Madeleine was dead and so no one would be looking out for her. Don't think you care about that child carly. SY do and hope to find her alive.
Karma? don't think so.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 20, 2016, 12:04:21 PM
Loss of earning, perhaps. Didn't he have all his assets frozen?
If his book is republished and sells lots of copies he will be able to take those sales as a baseline to estimate how much he lost during the period of the ban, I would imagine. Then we have such things as stress caused to himself and his family. He, unlike the McCanns may even have medical evidence of the effects of the case on his health. Kate's 'depression' was never medically diagnosed.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 12:08:08 PM
All who are glad Amaral has won must all agree with his book, and therefore believe Madeleine to be dead, a child who could be out there waiting to be found. Thank god SY are searching for her.
Where are they searching Lace ?
You of course realize they don't know what happened to her and you are merely typing cliches.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 20, 2016, 12:08:43 PM
Pretty much! But you will note how the supporters are now delighting in talking about irrelevancies to avoid the main issue. The original judgement against Sr Amaral has been turned over by three appeal court judges and Dra Duarte is yet to work out whether she has adequate grounds of appeal. The defence by the supporters is the implication that Portugal is a banana republic without a real judicial system so somehow it does not really count. But remind me where the case was being tried and whose judicial system has primacy...............?
The judgment of the appeal-court judges is badly flawed, not least because the innocence of the McCanns (of any criminally culpable act) is not in question, and Amaral's book accuses them of some very serious crimes.
This judgement is a licence for anyone to write anything, call it their 'opinion' and be exempt from consequence. That is manifestly and flagrantly unjust.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 20, 2016, 12:15:52 PM
All who are glad Amaral has won must all agree with his book, and therefore believe Madeleine to be dead, a child who could be out there waiting to be found. Thank god SY are searching for her.
As one of those who are allegedly the better informed and more intelligent group that is rather a simplistic view. Amaral expressed his opinion of what happened in his book, as did Kate McCann in her book. Both had the right to express their opinions in print as far as I'm concerned. That opinion has absolutely no connection with my opinion on the contents of either book.
Madeleine McCann's fate is unknown. Scotland Yard are trying to find out what happened. I see no signs of them 'searching' either for remains or for a living girl. It seems to be a desk exercise now by four people. They may get lucky and have a breakthrough and if they do and the trail leads to Portugal they will present their findings to the Portuguese who will decide what to do about it.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 20, 2016, 12:16:23 PM
The attitude of the press seems to be changing. McCann still sells copy if dressed up right; smelly bin men are so yesterdays news. One fears the Portuguese judgement will breathe life back into it.
The judgment of the appeal-court judges is badly flawed, not least because the innocence of the McCanns (of any criminally culpable act) is not in question, and Amaral's book accuses them of some very serious crimes.
This judgement is a licence for anyone to write anything, call it their 'opinion' and be exempt from consequence. That is manifestly and flagrantly unjust.
I suspect that Portugal might live to regret this decision.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 12:17:14 PM
There is talk in the papers of Amaral suing the McCanns on various grounds. Would this be in a British or Portuguese court? If he won in the latter and they refused to pay up, this would be a huge PR coup for Amaral and reflect very negatively on the McCanns.
Would he be likely to have any success in a UK court?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 20, 2016, 12:20:13 PM
As one of those who are allegedly the better informed and more intelligent group that is rather a simplistic view. Amaral expressed his opinion of what happened in his book, as did Kate McCann in her book. Both had the right to express their opinions in print as far as I'm concerned. That opinion has absolutely no connection with my opinion on the contents of either book.
Madeleine McCann's fate is unknown. Scotland Yard are trying to find out what happened. I see no signs of them 'searching' either for remains or for a living girl. It seems to be a desk exercise now by four people. They may get lucky and have a breakthrough and if they do and the trail leads to Portugal they will present their findings to the Portuguese who will decide what to do about it.
Amaral lied in his book, there was no 100% DNA found of Madeleine's.
Can't you see why they sued him though? Would you let someone let alone the co-ordinator of the case write a book which was damning you, drugging your children hiding her body, of course you wouldn't. I would have done exactly the same as the McCann's especially as it would be protecting my daughter from someone saying she was dead and therefore no one should search for her.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 20, 2016, 12:22:43 PM
You of course realize they don't know what happened to her and you are merely typing cliches.
Ask SY. You are forgetting that when Amaral's book came out it was only a year or so after Madeleine went missing and people were still phoning in with sightings, a very important time in the search, to be told Madeleine is dead.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 20, 2016, 12:22:59 PM
As one of those who are allegedly the better informed and more intelligent group that is rather a simplistic view. Amaral expressed his opinion of what happened in his book, as did Kate McCann in her book. Both had the right to express their opinions in print as far as I'm concerned. That opinion has absolutely no connection with my opinion on the contents of either book.
Madeleine McCann's fate is unknown. Scotland Yard are trying to find out what happened. I see no signs of them 'searching' either for remains or for a living girl. It seems to be a desk exercise now by four people. They may get lucky and have a breakthrough and if they do and the trail leads to Portugal they will present their findings to the Portuguese who will decide what to do about it.
Quite. There would appear to be little urgency in their approach - " we will go back to the HO in 6 months for more funding, etc", which would suggest that they have little expectation of finding a live Madeleine.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 20, 2016, 12:23:57 PM
I don't see how amaral can sue the mccanns for the fact that his book was banned...it was the court who banned the book...not the mccanns
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 20, 2016, 12:24:51 PM
There is talk in the papers of Amaral suing the McCanns on various grounds. Would this be in a British or Portuguese court? If he won in the latter and they refused to pay up, this would be a huge PR coup for Amaral and reflect very negatively on the McCanns.
Would he be likely to have any success in a UK court?
How can he sue in a UK court regarding an injunction issued by a Portuguese court?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 12:28:37 PM
He might not be suing over the injunction, he may have other grounds, though as I'm not a lawyer, I wouldn't want to suggest what they might be.
Like most things, it may become more clear in the fullness of time
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 12:32:01 PM
Amaral lied in his book, there was no 100% DNA found of Madeleine's.
Can't you see why they sued him though? Would you let someone let alone the co-ordinator of the case write a book which was damning you, drugging your children hiding her body, of course you wouldn't. I would have done exactly the same as the McCann's especially as it would be protecting my daughter from someone saying she was dead and therefore no one should search for her.
Have you read his book? Read Chapter 18 first - it doesn't say 100% match.
"During a more relaxed moment at one of these meetings, I come out with an ill-judged comment. Inopportune or undiplomatic, but this is my reasoning: thinking about the kinds of crime that may have been committed if the McCanns were involved in their daughter's disappearance, something occurs to me. If they were involved in one way or another, then a crime of fraud or abuse of trust is a possibility concerning the fund that was set up to finance the search for Madeleine. Donations have reached nearly 3 million Euros.
If such a crime exists, Portugal would not have jurisdiction to investigate and try it. The fund being legally registered in England, it would be our English colleagues who would deal with the case. Our English colleagues then realise a hard reality: the strong possibility that they would have a crime to investigate in their own country, with the McCann couple as the main suspects: a prospect that does not seem to appeal to them. I notice a sudden pallor in the faces of those British people present." (Chapter 18 TOTL)
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 20, 2016, 12:39:30 PM
He might not be suing over the injunction, he may have other grounds, though as I'm not a lawyer, I would want to suggest what they might be.
Like most things, it may become more clear in the fullness of time
In a UK libel trial, there is a facility which permits the defendant to apply for the right to damages, should any injunctions imposed subsequently be proven to have been incorrect. I do not know if this is the case in Pt. law.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 20, 2016, 12:39:40 PM
If his book is republished and sells lots of copies he will be able to take those sales as a baseline to estimate how much he lost during the period of the ban, I would imagine. Then we have such things as stress caused to himself and his family. He, unlike the McCanns may even have medical evidence of the effects of the case on his health. Kate's 'depression' was never medically diagnosed.
That is one way to look at it.
I am sure there may be those who will queue to buy another copy but it was a best seller in Portugal suggesting sales would have tailed off, so what potential was there for profit to be made from further sales?
If it is weighed against actual earnings from later titles authored by him that might reduce it even further. There is also perhaps a more discerning readership who prefer to read the facts rather than a threadbare thesis unable to suggest how the prime suggestion in it was accomplished. (coffin invasions and subsequent cremation ... probably won't cut the mustard ... then again it takes all sorts)
Should he decide to counter sue the McCanns his allegation of penury at their hands will require substantiation. (I would imagine this to be a requirement even of a Portuguese court). Many issues will almost certainly be raised in court and the gloves will be entirely off ; I think that might be a conversation with himself worth having, once the McCanns have their bite at the cherry by appealing the court decision ... should such a thing be allowed.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 12:40:38 PM
A sues B and the judgement is in A's favour. B has grounds for appeal and the right of appeal to a higher court which B exercises and B's appeal is upheld. Should A have grounds and the right of appeal to the highest court then A may exercise that right.
So far so good. What is wrong with that? The practice works in most countries and is accepted as the norm.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 20, 2016, 12:46:34 PM
Amaral lied in his book, there was no 100% DNA found of Madeleine's.
Can't you see why they sued him though? Would you let someone let alone the co-ordinator of the case write a book which was damning you, drugging your children hiding her body, of course you wouldn't. I would have done exactly the same as the McCann's especially as it would be protecting my daughter from someone saying she was dead and therefore no one should search for her.
All your arguments rest on your opinion that the McCanns are totally innocent. That's your non-negotiable starting point. If you come at it from a different starting point your arguments don't hold water. Someone who doesn't know if the McCanns are innocent or not can accept the possibility that their motives were not what they said they were. Lest we forget, the subject of 'drugging' was first raised by the parents to explain their comatose twins, not by the PJ.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 12:51:10 PM
Ask SY. You are forgetting that when Amaral's book came out it was only a year or so after Madeleine went missing and people were still phoning in with sightings, a very important time in the search, to be told Madeleine is dead.
Why do you continue to omit that other people had already concluded, independent of Amaral, that in all likelihood she was already dead.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 20, 2016, 12:54:56 PM
So, I say again, why should that be a problem? Who would want to do such a petty thing and for what reason?
I thought we were talking about the right to freedom of speech. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. That is what Portugal is saying. Reasons are irrelevant.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 12:57:52 PM
I thought we were talking about the right to freedom of speech. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. That is what Portugal is saying. Reasons are irrelevant.
Yes, so why is it a problem?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 01:00:45 PM
You challenge the right to the assumption of innocence?
Why is that?
Not at all - it was your dogmatic statement about insanity that I was commenting on.
Presumption of innocence applies only to a court of law. Individuals can think what they like.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: lordpookles on April 20, 2016, 01:40:47 PM
What I'm not clear on is what would happen here in the UK? For example, if a private individual not necessarily a detective published a book speculating and provided a thesis that for instance Michael Barrymore did commit a murder during that infamous pool party. Could said individual be prosecuted for libel or prosecuted for anything at all? Is it OK for one to give their opinion whilst admitting they may be wrong - ie something is stated as opinion, which is not the same as stating something as fact?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 20, 2016, 01:54:23 PM
What I'm not clear on is what would happen here in the UK? For example, if a private individual not necessarily a detective published a book speculating and provided a thesis that for instance Michael Barrymore did commit a murder during that infamous pool party. Could said individual be prosecuted for libel or prosecuted for anything at all? Is it OK for one to give their opinion whilst admitting they may be wrong - ie something is stated as opinion, which is not the same as stating something as fact?
Hi LP ... If you wish to test it, try posting such an opinion on the forum ...
(a) see if it is allowed to stand (b) or countdown how long it takes for it to be whooshed
I think (b) would be the order of the day.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 02:17:24 PM
you sceptics have some strange ideas...I doubt if anyone on this forum is seething...lashing out...or best of all...madly in love with Kate
I see it as a disappointing backward step into a bygone time.
The cast had a couple of changes since the last time round when Mr Amaral won his appeal ... the McCanns ~ Amaral ~ judge Catarina Arelo Manso ... but otherwise 'business as usual'.
Obviously it must be considered appropriate for the same judge to rule on the same case on two separate occasions in the matter of two different judgements ... however had she ruled in the McCann favour first time around, one can only imagine the scratching of heads at her appearance second time around.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 02:41:55 PM
I see it as a disappointing backward step into a bygone time.
The cast had a couple of changes since the last time round when Mr Amaral won his appeal ... the McCanns ~ Amaral ~ judge Catarina Arelo Manso ... but otherwise 'business as usual'.
Obviously it must be considered appropriate for the same judge to rule on the same case on two separate occasions in the matter of two different judgements ... however had she ruled in the McCann favour first time around, one can only imagine the scratching of heads at her appearance second time around.
Backward step ?
Why, as your views are clearly biased in this case, as are those on both sides of the fence.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 20, 2016, 02:58:42 PM
Have you read his book? Read Chapter 18 first - it doesn't say 100% match.
"During a more relaxed moment at one of these meetings, I come out with an ill-judged comment. Inopportune or undiplomatic, but this is my reasoning: thinking about the kinds of crime that may have been committed if the McCanns were involved in their daughter's disappearance, something occurs to me. If they were involved in one way or another, then a crime of fraud or abuse of trust is a possibility concerning the fund that was set up to finance the search for Madeleine. Donations have reached nearly 3 million Euros.
If such a crime exists, Portugal would not have jurisdiction to investigate and try it. The fund being legally registered in England, it would be our English colleagues who would deal with the case. Our English colleagues then realise a hard reality: the strong possibility that they would have a crime to investigate in their own country, with the McCann couple as the main suspects: a prospect that does not seem to appeal to them. I notice a sudden pallor in the faces of those British people present." (Chapter 18 TOTL)
He says 4 short of 100% in his book, but this is what hit the headlines -
DNA samples that are a "100 per cent match" to Madeleine McCann have been found in her parents' hire car and holiday apartment, it has been claimed.
That came from Portugal.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 20, 2016, 02:59:56 PM
I see it as a disappointing backward step into a bygone time.
The cast had a couple of changes since the last time round when Mr Amaral won his appeal ... the McCanns ~ Amaral ~ judge Catarina Arelo Manso ... but otherwise 'business as usual'.
Obviously it must be considered appropriate for the same judge to rule on the same case on two separate occasions in the matter of two different judgements ... however had she ruled in the McCann favour first time around, one can only imagine the scratching of heads at her appearance second time around.
Are you suggesting bias or what?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 03:01:05 PM
I see Amaral has given thanks to those who donated to the legal fund including police officers in the UK.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 03:01:12 PM
It's understandable that supporters are disappointed by the verdict. I don't see how it justifies vilifying a whole country, that's all. Just as I see no justification for suggesting those who don't support the McCanns are insane. That's where the desperation is evident; in ridiculous assertions.
No one is vilifying the whole country. But there is something seriously wrong with the Judiciary.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 03:19:13 PM
It's understandable that supporters are disappointed by the verdict. I don't see how it justifies vilifying a whole country, that's all. Just as I see no justification for suggesting those who don't support the McCanns are insane. That's where the desperation is evident; in ridiculous assertions.
Unfortunately, some of the supporters have regularly used that ploy of questioning the sanity of others.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 03:22:17 PM
No one is vilifying the whole country. But there is something seriously wrong with the Judiciary.
That is a matter of opinion.
Clearly you would not say that if the decision had gone in favour of the mccanns.
Perhaps that old adage of that you win some and you lose some, would be appropriate.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 03:37:16 PM
Quote
After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz. He praises the quality of the work carried out by the Portuguese authorities in trying to find the little girl alive. According to him, the time has come to redirect the searches in order to find, this time, a body hidden in the surrounding area.
Goncalo Amaral (Truth of the Lie)
Quote
I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz. (See my second report entitled “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine”).
(Penultimate sentence and paragraph of Harrison's third and final report)
Isabel Duarte ought to have to do literally no more than cite the above two paragraphs, one from Amaral's book, the other from the conclusion of Harrison's third and final report, to be sure that her clients ultimately prevail in their action against Amaral.
Oh, and this paragraph from Amaral's book:
Quote
The figures quoted in the report he hands over give us the shivers. The crimes, including those of a sexual nature, are committed by the parents in 84% of cases; 96% are perpetrated by friends and relatives. In only 4% of them is the murderer or abductor a total stranger to the victim. In this roundabout way, Mark Harrison points out that the guilty party may be a person close to Madeleine, and even her own parents. From now on, we have to explore this track, especially as the others have proved fruitless.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 20, 2016, 03:38:14 PM
What on earth has come over the UK press? Amaral has gone from being described as 'disgraced' or 'sacked' to a simple 'former detective' in most reports. Surely they don't forsee another massive libel payout? Or are they bidding to serialise his book when it's published in the UK?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 20, 2016, 03:41:01 PM
What on earth has come over the UK press? Amaral has gone from being described as 'disgraced' or 'sacked' to a simple 'former detective' in most reports. Surely they don't forsee another massive libel payout? Or are they bidding to serialise his book when it's published in the UK?
One of them, perhaps the Mirror used the word 'blundering' 8(0(*
Serialisation would be entertaining on several fronts
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 03:47:38 PM
What on earth has come over the UK press? Amaral has gone from being described as 'disgraced' or 'sacked' to a simple 'former detective' in most reports. Surely they don't forsee another massive libel payout? Or are they bidding to serialise his book when it's published in the UK?
DO you seriously believe the book could be published in the UK.....you show a complete ignorance of the libel laws here
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 20, 2016, 03:51:17 PM
Anyone who stands in anything short of outright condemnation of this latest decision of the Portuguese courts has fascist tendencies.
You do realise you're not making sense? Who has been trying to stamp out disagreement with their story? Who wants to restrict the freedom of the press? Who has tried to stop people expressing their opinions on the internet? Not the Portuguese Courts. They support freedom of speech and expression which is not a fascist tendency, quite the opposite.
Fascism; a way of organizing a society in which a government ruled by a dictator controls the lives of the people and in which people are not allowed to disagree with the government http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 03:54:40 PM
This latest decision (of the Portuguese courts) upholds the 'right' of any old Joe-Soap to spout anything they like that traduces maligns and denigrates without let, hindrance or fear of sanction, and without heed to the wider damage done, either to reputations or to the prospects of finding someone missing and sought.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 03:55:18 PM
What on earth has come over the UK press? Amaral has gone from being described as 'disgraced' or 'sacked' to a simple 'former detective' in most reports. Surely they don't forsee another massive libel payout? Or are they bidding to serialise his book when it's published in the UK?
He was not disgraced when given a suspended prison sentence and a conviction for covering up a serious crime?
He was not removed or 'sacked' from Madeleine's case?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 03:57:47 PM
This latest decision (of the Portuguese courts) upholds the 'right' of any old Joe-Soap to spout anything they like that traduces maligns and denigrates without let, hindrance or fear of sanction, and without heed to the wider damage done, either to reputations or to the prospects of finding someone missing and sought.
The mccanns messed up any reputation they had on the night of the 3 rd May 2007
I noted the mirror was still calling kate mccann a GP yesterday.
A complete lie.
She has no license to practice.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 03:59:02 PM
He was not disgraced when given a suspended prison sentence and a conviction for covering up a serious crime?
He was not removed or 'sacked' from Madeleine's case?
All water under the bridge. The British press can be so forgiving when they want to be
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 20, 2016, 03:59:31 PM
...
perhaps if posters such as you didn't act in such a way I wouldn't say it. First...the mccanns have not been turned over...an appeal is to be made. One of the judges who made the present judgement also overturned the banning of the book...which was overturned...the judgement could go all the way to the ECHR...
second...my intelligence is just a super today as it was last week
third...the book would be considered libellous in the UK
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 20, 2016, 04:06:51 PM
if it not here already: http://portugalresident.com/appeal-court-judges-reject-mccanns-%E2%80%98libel-win%E2%80%99
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 04:10:12 PM
DO you seriously believe the book could be published in the UK.....you show a complete ignorance of the libel laws here
Sorry, I couldn't resist that little joke. I knew what the reaction would be. @)(++(*
Still, who knows what may happen? The impossible (according to some) has happened in Portugal. The guy who didn't have a hope of being allowed to appeal was allowed to appeal. Then he won; another impossibility according to some. As few understand Portuguese law and legal processes their surprise is...........surprising. It seems the original judge didn't correctly interpret the matter of judicial secrecy, for example, so what hope UK people had of deciding if she was correct I don't know. Of course some didn't even understand what she based her judgement on.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 04:14:47 PM
Let him stamp his tiny foot of defiance. No one is paying any real attention.
When Amaral attributed to Harrison the assertion that Harrison had said Madeleine is definitely dead, was Amaral incompetent?
Or did Amaral lie?
When Amaral suggested Harrison hinted Madeleine's own parents (Kate and Gerry) might even be responsible (for Madeleine's death), was Amaral incompetent?
Or did Amaral lie?
All ways up, Amaral made assertions (purporting to be 'truth') that were actually untrue, and that traduced the reputations of Kate and Gerry:
PROVED!
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 04:16:12 PM
perhaps if posters such as you didn't act in such a way I wouldn't say it. First...the mccanns have not been turned over...an appeal is to be made. One of the judges who made the present judgement also overturned the banning of the book...which was overturned...the judgement could go all the way to the ECHR...
second...my intelligence is just a super today as it was last week
third...the book would be considered libellous in the UK
I don't suppose it's crossed anyone's mind that Portugal would rather have ECHR rule on this than have to do it themselves?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 04:17:48 PM
When Amaral attributed to Harrison the assertion that Harrison had said Madeleine is definitely dead, was Amaral incompetent?
Or did Amaral lie?
When Amaral suggested Harrison hinted Madeleine's own parents (Kate and Gerry) might even be responsible (for Madeleine's death), was Amaral incompetent?
Or did Amaral lie?
All ways up, Amaral made assertions (purporting to be 'truth') that were actually untrue, and that traduced the reputations of Kate and Gerry:
PROVED!
The nature of crime is undetermined.
Don't forget that when you type your mantra.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 20, 2016, 04:19:15 PM
Sorry, I couldn't resist that little joke. I knew what the reaction would be. @)(++(*
Still, who knows what may happen? The impossible (according to some) has happened in Portugal. The guy who didn't have a hope of being allowed to appeal was allowed to appeal. Then he won; another impossibility according to some. As few understand Portuguese law and legal processes their surprise is...........surprising. It seems the original judge didn't correctly interpret the matter of judicial secrecy, for example, so what hope UK people had of deciding if she was correct I don't know. Of course some didn't even understand what she based her judgement on.
Some didn't even know it was a libel trial ... until the appeal against the judgement was upheld ... then they seemed to cotton on.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 04:32:26 PM
What's wrong with us expressing our opinion on the slagging off the McCanns thread
Is there a specific one ? - then fine by me. I just thought this particular thread was getting filled up with irrelevant junk which makes it more difficult for people to catch up,
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 20, 2016, 04:37:40 PM
I don't suppose it's crossed anyone's mind that Portugal would rather have ECHR rule on this than have to do it themselves?
It certainly hadn't crossed mine, but now that you have raised the question it is certainly worth thinking about. Who knows how many internal problems it may solve when one remembers the many active and pending cases going through the Portuguese courts at the moment, the nature of them and the persons accused.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 20, 2016, 04:45:01 PM
Only if the lying is a component of the original case and the appeal. Now it would appear that the courts took all this into account so why are you so pissed off about it? Is it your money? are you, your friends and family involved? As no one knows what happened on May 3rd 2007 apart from the perps you seem to be rattled over events you are dreaming up in your own mind.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 04:46:48 PM
Only if the lying is a component of the original case and the appeal. Now it would appear that the courts took all this into account so why are you so pissed off about it? Is it your money? are you, your friends and family involved? As no one knows what happened on May 3rd 2007 apart from the perps you seem to be rattled over events you are dreaming up in your own mind.
Well said Alice. 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 04:47:36 PM
Moderation seems a bit on-sided today as well , but why am I surprised?
You might have to prove that. But you won't be able to. Or are you completely incapable of understanding that a Moderator's opinion is not reflected in their Moderating? Would it be if you were a Moderator?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 04:55:45 PM
Its not what you post as opinion that I'm commenting about, rather what you permit to remain, or not that others post.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 05:01:53 PM
That what this thread is about in case you hadn't noticed.
Exploration of why he won his appeal is invited by the topic-title, as is expressions of surprise (that he won his appeal) as well as fleshing out the reasons for that surprise ...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on April 20, 2016, 05:07:01 PM
When Amaral attributed to Harrison the assertion that Harrison had said Madeleine is definitely dead, was Amaral incompetent?
Or did Amaral lie?
When Amaral suggested Harrison hinted Madeleine's own parents (Kate and Gerry) might even be responsible (for Madeleine's death), was Amaral incompetent?
Or did Amaral lie?
All ways up, Amaral made assertions (purporting to be 'truth') that were actually untrue, and that traduced the reputations of Kate and Gerry:
PROVED!
We're you present at every conversation between Amaral and Harrison?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 05:07:16 PM
Exploration of why he won his appeal is invited by the topic-title, as is expressions of surprise (that he won his appeal) as well as fleshing out the reasons for that surprise ...
By introducing claims about insanity and fascism, you mean?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 20, 2016, 05:09:04 PM
We're you present at every conversation between Amaral and Harrison?
Can you provide a cite that any conversation ever took place between them?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 05:12:01 PM
You are all getting much leeway at the moment, although some of you don't seem to realise.
But, we will have no more accusations against Moderators, no matter their leanings. Any further accusations will result in Warnings. Probably from me, in case you wondered.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Angelo222 on April 20, 2016, 05:13:39 PM
Exploration of why he won his appeal is invited by the topic-title, as is expressions of surprise (that he won his appeal) as well as fleshing out the reasons for that surprise ...
I haven't read the full judgement but it appears to me that the three judges were of the view that Amaral did nothing wrong in espousing his thesis since it was based on the files.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 05:19:12 PM
I haven't read the full judgement but it appears to me that the three judges were of the view that Amaral did nothing wrong in espousing his thesis since it was based on the files.
In large (and significant) areas, Amaral's book is not based on the files. I've demonstrated a key example with my quotes above.
But it is far from the only example.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 20, 2016, 05:23:14 PM
Exploration of why he won his appeal is invited by the topic-title, as is expressions of surprise (that he won his appeal) as well as fleshing out the reasons for that surprise ...
**Snip We confidently wait for the evaluation reports from FSS. A few days after the samples are sent, we are informed that the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns' car shows a significant match - 50% - with Gerald's, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children. The Truth of the lie: Chapter 18: Goncalo Amaral
I remain incredulous that misinformation such as the above was printed in the first instance. It demonstrates the total misunderstanding of forensics and lack of knowledge of the senior investigating officer in charge of a missing child case.
I am doubly incredulous that the Portuguese courts in the name of freedom of expression have accepted that such inaccuracies supersede Article Six of the European Human Rights Act.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 05:30:24 PM
I haven't read the full judgement but it appears to me that the three judges were of the view that Amaral did nothing wrong in espousing his thesis since it was based on the files.
No one has seen the full judgement in English, but I doubt that there is much to discuss semantically.
Some of us are learning a huge amount about Portuguese Law, albeit in its infancy, but there is some obscure logic to it if you try to look at it from a different stance.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on April 20, 2016, 05:48:36 PM
The trial was about damages not libel, even if all of the newspapers said it was a libel trial.
This seems to be the problem. I can see the difference, but most people can't. Although it is a very fine line.
However, I am not three pleased about the decision of The Appeal Court because some damage was undoubtedly done. Even if only to the reputations of McCanns.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 06:10:12 PM
**Snip We confidently wait for the evaluation reports from FSS. A few days after the samples are sent, we are informed that the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns' car shows a significant match - 50% - with Gerald's, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children. The Truth of the lie: Chapter 18: Goncalo Amaral
I remain incredulous that misinformation such as the above was printed in the first instance. It demonstrates the total misunderstanding of forensics and lack of knowledge of the senior investigating officer in charge of a missing child case.
I am doubly incredulous that the Portuguese courts in the name of freedom of expression have accepted that such inaccuracies supersede Article Six of the European Human Rights Act.
Yep.
And Amaral contradicted (and corrected!) Stuart Prior on interpretation of the forensic results (apparently).
We don't see Stuart Prior's report ...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 06:13:00 PM
This seems to be the problem. I can see the difference, but most people can't. Although it is a very fine line.
However, I am not three pleased about the decision of The Appeal Court because some damage was undoubtedly done. Even if only to the reputations of McCanns.
Shame about that. Shall we ask them to reverse it for you?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 06:14:09 PM
This seems to be the problem. I can see the difference, but most people can't. Although it is a very fine line.
However, I am not three pleased about the decision of The Appeal Court because some damage was undoubtedly done. Even if only to the reputations of McCanns.
I'm among those who can't.
Could you explain?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 06:19:45 PM
I don't think we need a cite, Ferryman. Much as I understand your feelings, and mine. But I am not allowing emotion to govern me at the moment, certainly not in so far as Portuguese Law is concerned.
We just carry on supporting The McCanns, in so far as we are able.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 06:22:52 PM
It's a brain thing. It's there or it isn't. You can see it or you can't. I don't have to agree with it to see it. I guess that you have to be like me and see everyone's side of the story. Which is mostly half way down the middle. But only legally speaking.
My opinion on this is only legal. It does not in any way detract from my support of The McCanns. That is just another legal opinion.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: AerialHunter on April 20, 2016, 06:39:28 PM
This was always going to be the outcome. The sole job of policing anywhere is to protect the Judiciary and policing itself. An unsolved case has no interest for them. Amaral just saw an opportunity to write a book and put down his own thoughts as a police officer, if there was anything controversial it was only intended to spice things up and make it a bit more interesting, what other motive could he have. I see he now intends to sue in return because he has suffered losses because of the delay in releasing the book. The system is universal, it is the same anywhere, the unstoppable government controlled force will take a result, any result, it doesn't matter to anyone who goes down for anything. The system will win.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 20, 2016, 06:47:58 PM
MOD NOTE
Your point of view on this is fine. You are entitled to your opinion, and to express it.
But posts which break the forum rules will end up in the waste bucket. Start of. End of.
Try expressing your point of view in a civil manner.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 07:00:25 PM
I haven't read the full judgement but it appears to me that the three judges were of the view that Amaral did nothing wrong in espousing his thesis since it was based on the files.
See, based on the files.
Amaral says Eddie scented death all over the place.
That's in the files (Almeida's interim report)
But it's also in the files (both Grime and Harrison) that no incriminating inference can be made from the reactions of the dogs.
So .....
Can Amaral say it?
Or can't he?
It is in the files ....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 07:02:34 PM
Are these the files that you don't trust the translation of?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 20, 2016, 07:42:41 PM
Madeleine McCann’s parents threaten legal action on people caught selling Gonzalo Amaral's book in UK
Madeleine McCann’s parents have warned anyone caught selling ex-police chief Gonzalo Amaral's book in the UK would face legal action.
Kate and Gerry McCann already face fresh heartache after the cop who led the bungled hunt for their missing daughter said he plans to sue them.
Amaral is set to demand compensation from Gerry and Kate McCann after he won a libel court case appeal.
The 56-year-old claims the couple cost him money and harmed his reputation during the long-running legal battle .
Portuguese legal sources say the compensation bill could run into the “hundreds of thousands of Euros”.
Amaral was told pay the McCanns £360,000 after penning a book claiming they were responsible for Madeleine’s death.
The couple, from Rothley, Leics, vowed to spend “every penny” of the cash on the hunt for their missing daughter.
But those plans were put on hold last May when Amaral, the officer tasked with finding Madeleine, lodged an appeal.
Read more: Police chief to 'sue Madeleine McCann's parents for compensation
Kate and Gerry were left “seething” when three Portuguese appeal judges ruled in his favour on Monday.
They are taking the case to Portugal’s Supreme Court - which will have the final say on whether Amaral should pay damages.
The ex-officer’s lawyer Miguel Cruz Rodrigues announced plans to sue the McCanns just hours after the surprise libel U-turn.
He said: “We are going to advance with a compensation claim against the McCanns. My client has suffered years of prejudice and losses.”
Mr Rodrigues added Amaral has suffered “years of financial losses in which his good name has been called into question.”
Read more: Madeleine McCann can still be found alive, says top cop
A source close to Kate and Gerry accused him of waging a “relentless battle” against them.
The friend said: “It’s exasperating for them and they don’t need this on top of everything else. Mr Amaral has profited from their pain.
“It was never about them winning damages which will now be put on hold while they appeal. This could continue for years.”
The former police chief is hoping his banned book ‘The Truth of the Lie’ can go on sale throughout Europe.
Ex-GP Kate described it in court as “devastating and distressing” during the libel battle with Amaral.
Read more: Madeleine McCann’s parents 'seething' as police chief wins libel appeal against them
The Portuguese appeal judges said he had a right to express his opinions in the 2008 book.
They also said the McCanns paved the way for people to express their opinions” by giving media interviews themselves.
A spokesman for the couple warned anyone caught selling the book in the UK would face legal action.
Kate and Gerry began their legal battle with Amaral in 2009 after he penned the book.
He said they faked her abduction after she died in their Praia da Luz holiday apartment in May 2007.
‘The Truth of the Lie’ is currently banned from sale in the UK but was a best-seller in Portugal.
More than 120,000 copies were sold before it was removed from the shelves after the McCanns won an injunction.
Amaral was thrown off the Madeleine investigation after publicly criticising British police involved in the long-running case.
He denied defamation and claimed everything in the book was based on police and court files on the case, which have been made public.
Madeleine, who would turn 13 next month, vanished from her parents’ holiday apartment on the Algarve in 2007.
Kate and Gerry were dining with friends at a poolside tapas restaurant in the Ocean Club complex at the time.
The youngster’s twin siblings Amelie and Sean, who are now 11, were sleeping in the same room.
Kate, a GP, said earlier this year that she thinks her eldest daughter, who would turn 13 next month, is still in the Algarve.
But despite a massive police investigation in Portugal and a four-year probe by British cops, she has never been found.
Her parents were dismayed last year when the Scotland Yard investigation into her disappearance was scaled back.
But they were given a boost on Monday when Det Chief Supt Duthie insisted the £12m probe is “ongoing”.
He said: “There is ongoing work. There is always a possibility that we will find Madeleine and we hope that we will find her alive.
“That’s what we want and that’s what the family and the public want and that is why the Home Office continue to fund it.
“There is work that needs to be done still,” added the head of Scotland Yard’s Homicide and Major Crime Command.
The mccanns are going to be very disappointed as both the book and video are easily accessible on the net.
..and I feel sure after yesterday even more people will want to see what his thesis was.
Someone might want to tell the mccanns that.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 07:53:09 PM
Does that just mean that the book cannot be sold in UK, but people are free to read it ? Would that stop people from buying it from outside this country?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 07:56:29 PM
By decree of the McCanns via their bully boys Carter Ruck, no doubt.
Oh, so not by any court ruling, ok, thanks.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 08:06:37 PM
In England no one can get away with writing a book saying X dunit after a full and exhaustive enquiry has conclusively demonstrated that X didn't (do it!)
This (latest) court ruling on Amaral's book tends to suggest that in Portugal, you can.
I think England has the better balance ...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 08:09:22 PM
In England no one can get away with writing a book saying X dunit after a full and exhaustive enquiry has conclusively demonstrated that X didn't (do it!)
This (latest) court ruling on Amaral's book tends to suggest that in Portugal, you can.
I think England has the better balance ...
Haven't you got the message yet, the book and video are easily accessed on the net.
It's too late for the mccanns.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 08:12:41 PM
In England no one can get away with writing a book saying X dunit after a full and exhaustive enquiry has conclusively demonstrated that X didn't (do it!)
This (latest) court ruling on Amaral's book tends to suggest that in Portugal, you can.
I think England has the better balance ...
It was not concluded at all, if it was, none of this would be happening
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 08:50:56 PM
It was not concluded at all, if it was, none of this would be happening
It was concluded that the McCanns are innocent.
And a second enquiry was launched because, although the initial enquiry firmly established the innocence of the McCanns, it made little headway in establishing the identity of perpetrator(s) of crime(s) against Madeleine or finding her.
Hence the second enquiry ....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 08:51:10 PM
And a second enquiry was launched because, although the initial enquiry firmly established the innocence of the McCanns, it made little headway in establishing the identity of perpetrator(s) of crime(s) against Madeleine or finding her.
Hence the second enquiry ....
No FM, things are not as you portray them
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 08:54:04 PM
And a second enquiry was launched because, although the initial enquiry firmly established the innocence of the McCanns, it made little headway in establishing the identity of perpetrator(s) of crime(s) against Madeleine or finding her.
Hence the second enquiry ....
Innocent of what ferryman ?
The first investigation was shelved due to the lack of evidence.
The crime is unknown.
Stop trying to twist the truth.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 08:55:00 PM
Are you suggesting that Amaral's book can be published in English, in England? Find a Publisher. Ditto Scotland.
Is this censorship? That might be an interesting question.
I'm not suggesting anything. The McCanns view regarding publication of Amaral's book has never been tested in law because sellers/publishers have so far declined to take it to court. I was wondering whether separate writs would be required for England & Scotland.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 20, 2016, 09:04:38 PM
Your post is your personal interpretation of events and facts...eg no official bod has ever stated let alone concluded the mccanns are innocent
There was no need for any official bod to.
The McCanns were accused (but not charged) by the Portuguese arguido system then the status was dropped after a year-long investigation adduced no evidence against them.
Same for Robert Murat.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 09:11:24 PM
The McCanns were accused (but not charged) by the Portuguese arguido system then the status was dropped after a year-long investigation adduced no evidence against them.
Same for Robert Murat.
Not the same as being viewed as innocent, and yes, the case "requires" an official bod to state as much before you can alledge that they have been declared so
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 20, 2016, 09:19:24 PM
Entirely the same as being viewed as innocent; indeed, being innocent.
Then Amaral wrote a book accusing the McCanns of heinous crimes; not quite murder, but heinous crimes, the McCaanns (successfully) sued him for libel and now the Portuguese courts have decided he was, after all, entitled to make baseless accusations against the McCanns.
Most strange ....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 20, 2016, 09:30:55 PM
Entirely the same as being viewed as innocent; indeed, being innocent.
Then Amaral wrote a book accusing the McCanns of heinous crimes; not quite murder, but heinous crimes, the McCaanns (successfully) sued him for libel and now the Portuguese courts have decided he was, after all, entitled to make baseless accusations against the McCanns.
Most strange ....
What are the mccanns innocent of exactly ?
The crime unknown, if any.
No evidence that could stand up in court of what happened to Madeleine.
The mccanns remain in limbo.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 09:34:14 PM
Sorry if this has been posted already but it is reported that the McCanns have threatened anyone who sell the book in the UK with legal action.
What's news about that?
Always been the case, and will remain the case even if Portuguese courts decide irrevocably that Amaral's baseless accusations are not libel in Portugal
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 09:36:35 PM
Entirely the same as being viewed as innocent; indeed, being innocent.
Then Amaral wrote a book accusing the McCanns of heinous crimes; not quite murder, but heinous crimes, the McCaanns (successfully) sued him for libel and now the Portuguese courts have decided he was, after all, entitled to make baseless accusations against the McCanns.
Most strange ....
No it is not the same and No, thats not what the court decided, stop embroidering.....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 09:39:18 PM
Presumption of innocence. There is not an iota of evidence against the McCanns yet this (latest) court ruling suggests Amaral is entitled to make baseless accusations.
Most strange ....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 20, 2016, 09:47:27 PM
Well it hasnt for 9 or so years, its down to a) she is dead b) someone will confess about this c) her remains will be found d) she is in a dungeon held and not yet found e) with a loving criminal family
Im sure there are fs and gs and hs etc
None sound good and nothing the mccanns and their advisers have done has changed anything, so imo their spending a penny more down a black to date hole is stupid
And no police or pi investigation has yielded anything either...all bizarre
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 09:49:25 PM
...
I'm stating facts.
Expressions of opinion that deny fact are just that.
The Portuguese judiciary appears (disgracefully) to be on the brink of upholding the right of baseless opinion that traduces to hold sway.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 20, 2016, 09:50:25 PM
Presumption of innocence. There is not an iota of evidence against the McCanns yet this (latest) court ruling suggests Amaral is entitled to make baseless accusations.
Most strange ....
Brietta made the same mistake a short while ago, presumptiom of innocence (in a legal setting) i s not the same as innocence...and statng it as fact as you and others do
in a free thnking world setting, no one has any right to dictate thoughts...thats fascism dear not the fascism you davel and others talked about earlier
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 09:53:20 PM
intresting that the mcanns are still making threats even though they lost isnt it??
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 20, 2016, 09:53:46 PM
intresting that the mcanns are still making threats even though they lost isnt it??
Reputation management , but i think their reputation was shot from 3 may, maybe they could sue themselves hey? I think its disgusting they should even countenance wasting more of the fund for lawyers instead of putting the monies where they belong
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 09:59:14 PM
I'm not suggesting anything. The McCanns view regarding publication of Amaral's book has never been tested in law because sellers/publishers have so far declined to take it to court. I was wondering whether separate writs would be required for England & Scotland.
Probably.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 10:14:03 PM
Brietta made the same mistake a short while ago, presumptiom of innocence (in a legal setting) i s not the same as innocence...and statng it as fact as you and others do
in a free thnking world setting, no one has any right to dictate thoughts...thats fascism dear not the fascism you davel and others talked about earlier
Of course no one can dictate thoughts. But individuals can exercise autonomy not to accuse without foundation.
The Portuguese courts (disgracefully) appear on the brink of upholding Amaral's right to do precisely that.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 10:21:34 PM
Brietta made the same mistake a short while ago, presumptiom of innocence (in a legal setting) i s not the same as innocence...and statng it as fact as you and others do
in a free thnking world setting, no one has any right to dictate thoughts...thats fascism dear not the fascism you davel and others talked about earlier
Brietta doesn't make mistakes. Belay that Pipe.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 10:25:13 PM
Brietta made the same mistake a short while ago, presumptiom of innocence (in a legal setting) i s not the same as innocence...and statng it as fact as you and others do
in a free thnking world setting, no one has any right to dictate thoughts...thats fascism dear not the fascism you davel and others talked about earlier
You have totally lost me. However it is interesting to see that at least up until August 2014 Portugal were adhering to Article 6 of the ECHR ... wonder what happened to change that.
No doubt all may be revealed in the fullness of time.
Report on Portugal Section 1 Decisions of violation of Article 5 and 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) by Portugal in criminal proceedings over the last two years, as determined by the European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) The following sets out the number of violation decisions the ECtHR has made against Portugal under Articles 5 and 6, since April 2012 up to the date of this country report.
Overview of violation findings:
(b) Article 6
Right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty [Article 6 (2)] – no breaches.
Always been the case, and will remain the case even if Portuguese courts decide irrevocably that Amaral's baseless accusations are not libel in Portugal
What piece of legislation will they use ferryman ? Who will pay for the litigation ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 20, 2016, 10:51:36 PM
The McCanns lawyer said this about the appeal;
'This decision was an appreciation of the law and not the facts.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3547951/Portuguese-detective-WINS-appeal-against-libel-defeat-Madeleine-McCann-s-parents-NOT-pay-500-000-damages.html#ixzz46P9CNi8H Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
That's interesting because the Lower Court judgement was based on an appreciation of the law and not the facts. It stands to reason, therefore, that the Appeal Court followed the same path and rejected the lower court judge's 'appreciation of the law'.
If a Supreme Court appeal is lodged it looks like she will base it on the facts, then. I assume by that she means the proven and unproven facts listed by the first judge.
Some of those facts were rejected by the Supreme Court when they overturned the interim ban on Amaral's book in 2010, so it will be interesting to see what they decide if they are asked to reconsider them. This is what they said in 2010; The McCann couple alleges that Gonçalo Amaral's book, as well as the interviews that he gave about it, prompt "a serious and hardly reparable damage" to their family, especially to the twins, Sean and Amelie. They invoked damages to the protection of their private and family life and damages to their good name and their image rights.
"the contents of the book does not offend any of the applicants' fundamental rights. The exercise of its writing and publication is included in the constitutional rights that are ensured to everyone by the European Convention of Human Rights and by the Portuguese Republic's Constitution" http://www.mccannfiles.com/id344.html
I think the lady may have her work cut out trying to persuade the Supreme Court that they were mistaken, but you never know.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 20, 2016, 11:01:20 PM
You have totally lost me. However it is interesting to see that at least up until August 2014 Portugal were adhering to Article 6 of the ECHR ... wonder what happened to change that.
No doubt all may be revealed in the fullness of time.
Report on Portugal Section 1 Decisions of violation of Article 5 and 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) by Portugal in criminal proceedings over the last two years, as determined by the European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) The following sets out the number of violation decisions the ECtHR has made against Portugal under Articles 5 and 6, since April 2012 up to the date of this country report.
Overview of violation findings:
(b) Article 6
Right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty [Article 6 (2)] – no breaches.
There is nothing much to be lost about, my point was that you stated as a fact that the mccanns were innocent, when it is not an established fact, just a presumed as such right, just as i said to ferryman when making such statements
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 20, 2016, 11:03:08 PM
No, they did not, as he made his thesis from the police investigation, remember he was REMOVED in oct 07
The first enquiry was shelved in August 2008, with an archiving dispatch making plain there was no foundation or basis of accusation against the McCanns.
Then Amaral wrote a book saying TheMcCannsdunit.
And his right to say that appears on the brink of being upheld.
Disgraceful ....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 20, 2016, 11:12:05 PM
The first enquiry was shelved in August 2008, with an archiving dispatch making plain there was no foundation or basis of accusation against the McCanns.
Then Amaral wrote a book saying TheMcCannsdunit.
And his right to say that appears on the brink of being upheld.
Disgraceful ....
Yeah we heard you the first time about twenty pages ago.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 11:13:45 PM
The first enquiry was shelved in August 2008, with an archiving dispatch making plain there was no foundation or basis of accusation against the McCanns.
Then Amaral wrote a book saying TheMcCannsdunit.
And his right to say that appears on the brink of being upheld.
Disgraceful ....
The point we were discussing pages back was they were never really exonnerated...all else is bluster
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 11:19:21 PM
The point we were discussing pages back was they were never really exonnerated...all else is bluster
No, they weren't exonerated, because to be exonerated, you first need to be charged then tried.
They were accused via the arguido status, which was dropped (without charges being brought), then Amaral wrote a book saying theMcCannsdunit, and the Portuguese civil courts have ultimately upheld his right to do so, unless the McCanns successfully appeal.
Upholding the right (of a disgraced ex-police officer) to accuse without foundation is, really, not Portugal's finest hour
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 20, 2016, 11:19:37 PM
didnt someone once say people are jealous of kates boobs?? LOL @)(++(*
Dont thnk so lol
I get you Carly, dont fret, nothings changed in 9 years, the orignators of lies and abuse on mirror forums ie mccann supporters are still at it, and for what? They dug their own graves when they tried to dictate and shut debate and then jump to seriously nasty postings....i never seen the mccanns criticise any of them either
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 11:24:14 PM
Try to have some dignity if possible...sil and brietta manage it as mods, why cant you, youve had more practice lol
Are you allowed to abuse psters but in the same breath say no criticsm of mods is allowed, how hypocritical, maybe its time YOU went to bed, and reported btw
Tis time that you realised that I also have a right, and also some authority.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 20, 2016, 11:24:42 PM
No, they weren't exonerated, because to be exonerated, you first need to be charged then tried.
They were accused via the arguido status, which was dropped (without charges being brought), then Amaral wrote a book saying theMcCannsdunit, and the Portuguese civil courts have ultimately upheld his right to do so, unless the McCanns successfully appeal.
Upholding the right (of a disgraced ex-police officer) to accuse without foundation is, really, not Portugal's finest hour
Still doesnt make them innocent The pp also said another pp might have made a different decision As for exonnerated people here have said just that And i remind you the court said amaral worked off the investigation from may to october so NOT unfounded...the pp report did n ncoude every inch of the files either, give it up, youre wrong here
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 20, 2016, 11:26:07 PM
You can guess (that some, at present, unknown fact or set of circumstances) makes them guilty (of something culpable in respect of Madeleine).
I could guess that you have murdered someone or robbed a bank.
That's all it would be, a guess; (almost) certainly wrong.
Amaral appears on the brink of winning the right to traduce and malign without foundation.
And some folk find that a cause for celebration.
I find it most odd ....
A) you keep on about amaral, his whole team ended with a theory B) there was foundation C) youre not a bobby so wouldnt know D) cause for celebration is only about the mccanns strangehold over a mans life being crushed
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 11:37:33 PM
A) you keep on about amaral, his whole team ended with a theory B) there was foundation C) youre not a bobby so wouldnt know D) cause for celebration is only about the mccanns strangehold over a mans life being crushed
they were thrilled when the mcanns silenced GA were they not?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 11:39:15 PM
A) you keep on about amaral, his whole team ended with a theory B) there was foundation C) youre not a bobby so wouldnt know D) cause for celebration is only about the mccanns strangehold over a mans life being crushed
Do him and convicted bastinado torturer Almeida make a 'whole team'?
There was no foundation (to the accusations in Amaral's book)
None ....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 11:42:10 PM
Do him and convicted bastinado torturer Almeida make a 'whole team'?
There was no foundation (to the accusations in Amaral's book)
None ....
were just two policemen part of the nvestigation? Dont be so silly
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 20, 2016, 11:44:21 PM
According to the first Supreme Court ruling the 'abduction' was the McCann's 'theory', which they broadcast far and wide using the media, interviews and documentaries. That's why they saw no reason why Amaral shouldn't broadcast his 'theory' also. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id344.html
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 20, 2016, 11:46:00 PM
According to the first Supreme Court ruling the 'abduction' was the McCann's 'theory', which they broadcast far and wide using the media, interviews and documentaries. That's why they saw no reason why Amaral shouldn't broadcast his 'theory' also. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id344.html
Whom did the McCanns accuse by promoting abduction?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 11:47:42 PM
Kate committed thoughts to a private diary that were publicised by the PJ (who seized and read her diary)
And?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 20, 2016, 11:57:11 PM
In her notes dated July 18, almost two months after Maddie's disappearance and at a time when there are starting to appear indicia against the McCanns, Kate sounds disheartened and reinforces the accusations against Murat: "I had lots of hope that there would be progress in Murat's situation. I'm sure that he is involved and I feel like killing him, but I can't".
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id166.html
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 20, 2016, 11:57:16 PM
Kate committed thoughts to a private diary that were publicised by the PJ (who seized and read her diary)
Thank you FM Stolen and sold to the press?? Did she actually write that or is it more obfuscation? Whatever, if she was the author I think it incredibly mild if she suspected him of involvement in her daughter's disappearance.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: faithlilly on April 21, 2016, 12:03:12 AM
The books that the McCanns are going to sue over if they are sold in the UK. Where would the money be coming from for the litigation and under which law would they sue ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 21, 2016, 12:05:28 AM
You didnt answer the post, you cant go around calling people nasty little so and sos or telling them to be ashamed of themselves....i couldnt give two hoots about your "authority" besides NO ONE voted you in...lol You were hoisted onto this forum which resulted, remember? In a mass exodus of good posters, the FORUMS loss
8((()*/
Well, that was good, wasn't it. Some of the extremists departed. But most of them have since reinvented themselves.
But rest assured that no one will do to any other Moderator on this Forum anything near like what has been done to me.
I am as tough as old boots. Suck it up. it is not possible to get the better of me.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 21, 2016, 12:05:47 AM
police seize laptops and computers for crimes too
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 21, 2016, 12:07:19 AM
The books that the McCanns are going to sue over if they are sold in the UK. Where would the money be coming from for the litigation and under which law would they sue ?
UK libel (if Amaral were stupid enough to try to sell his book, certainly, England)
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 21, 2016, 12:15:38 AM
Whom did the McCanns accuse by promoting abduction?
An abductor who was known to the parents? That's a new idea. They may not have accused anyone but promotion of their theory led to hassle for innumerable people. Some of it was by the police, some instigated by the McCann's 'investigators'.
Robert Murat. Raymond Hewlett. That guy in Malta. Various families who had their children reported as being Madeleine. People who were reported as resembling all the various e-fits produced. Gail Coopers e-fit led to lots of sightings all over the UK. Did all those people have to contend with the police checking them out?
The McCanns and their 'investigators' tracked down and harassed witnesses. Those who didn't agree with their theory were silenced, reported to the police, and, in one well-known case, 'outed' to the press.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 21, 2016, 12:28:27 AM
Not forgetting mark warner staff who may have drugged madeleine
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 21, 2016, 12:30:11 AM
Any appeal to the supreme court has to be filed within 30 days. I predict that Duarte will be instructed to not appeal.
If something I've just read elsewhere is accurate, you may be right ....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 21, 2016, 01:00:09 AM
The former detective said Tuesday’s news was “a tremendous and important victory for the right to opinion, freedom of expression and democracy”.
He also said he was “fully aware” that the victory was only possible thanks to the support he has received, “from Portuguese citizens and other nationalities but principally from British subjects, including British police colleagues” - all of whom he thanks “from the bottom of my heart”.
- See more at: http://portugalresident.com/appeal-court-judges-reject-mccanns-%E2%80%98libel-win%E2%80%99#sthash.VmcpRljZ.0T9OLF3h.dpuf
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 21, 2016, 01:02:19 AM
The former detective said Tuesday’s news was “a tremendous and important victory for the right to opinion, freedom of expression and democracy”.
He also said he was “fully aware” that the victory was only possible thanks to the support he has received, “from Portuguese citizens and other nationalities but principally from British subjects, including British police colleagues” - all of whom he thanks “from the bottom of my heart”.
- See more at: http://portugalresident.com/appeal-court-judges-reject-mccanns-%E2%80%98libel-win%E2%80%99#sthash.VmcpRljZ.0T9OLF3h.dpuf
I'm sure retired ex-police officer Peter Mac was delighted ....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 21, 2016, 01:02:40 AM
Indeed, McCann lawyers tried to remove this judge (Catarina Manso), altogether. A legal source has calculated that the shenanigans “cost some two months of time, which explains why this decision took so long”. - See more at: http://portugalresident.com/appeal-court-judges-reject-mccanns-%E2%80%98libel-win%E2%80%99#sthash.VmcpRljZ.0T9OLF3h.dpuf
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 21, 2016, 01:03:50 AM
Indeed, McCann lawyers tried to remove this judge (Catarina Manso), altogether. A legal source has calculated that the shenanigans “cost some two months of time, which explains why this decision took so long”. - See more at: http://portugalresident.com/appeal-court-judges-reject-mccanns-%E2%80%98libel-win%E2%80%99#sthash.VmcpRljZ.0T9OLF3h.dpuf
It was like going on court (or into court in the McCanns case) in the best of 3 set tennis match with your opponent already awarded the first set.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 21, 2016, 01:11:45 AM
It was like going on court (or into court in the McCanns case) in the best of 3 set tennis match with your opponent already awarded the first set.
Good analogy ... if the situation had been reversed and one set was in the bag for the McCanns before setting foot on court I think Mr Amaral's support might have been shouting foul over that.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 21, 2016, 01:29:45 AM
I'm able to reach that page following the link ... but the sitemap takes me to 123.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on April 21, 2016, 02:18:17 AM
It's possible for some people to see a site and others not see it. (complicated lecture on dns caching and content caching omitted) Wait a day and the situation will probably be clear sorted.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on April 21, 2016, 02:21:42 AM
Back on topic, does anyone think that Mr Amaral will now initiate legal action? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3549374/Now-Portuguese-detective-vows-SUE-Madeleine-McCann-s-parents-years-prejudice-financial-losses-wins-libel-appeal-book.html
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 21, 2016, 02:30:44 AM
Back on topic, does anyone think that Mr Amaral will now initiate legal action? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3549374/Now-Portuguese-detective-vows-SUE-Madeleine-McCann-s-parents-years-prejudice-financial-losses-wins-libel-appeal-book.html
He'd be mad to launch any action in the UK imo. Is there a clause in Portuguese civil law which permits a defendant to be entitled to damages if an injunction has been proven to be wrongfully imposed?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 21, 2016, 02:45:50 AM
Back on topic, does anyone think that Mr Amaral will now initiate legal action? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3549374/Now-Portuguese-detective-vows-SUE-Madeleine-McCann-s-parents-years-prejudice-financial-losses-wins-libel-appeal-book.html
I think that could prove to be a very interesting exercise and depends very much on how much he values his financial privacy.
If claiming financial loss there will of course be very close scrutiny of all financial sources and resources held by Mr Amaral, perhaps even close relatives may have their financial affairs investigated.
It will become public how much disposable income he was able to amass over the period. For example what he earned from television appearances ... how much his friends received in monetary gifts appealed for on his behalf over six or seven years, those accounts will be scrutinised ... etc. etc.
So could turn into a bit of a financial minefield for him ... but entirely for him to think about before deciding what punitive action to take ...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 21, 2016, 02:52:30 AM
And The Hotel in Spain allegedly owned by his wife.
Ooops, sorry. His Ex Wife. If ever.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 21, 2016, 02:53:33 AM
He'd be mad to launch any action in the UK imo. Is there a clause in Portuguese civil law which permits a defendant to be entitled to damages if an injunction has been proven to be wrongfully imposed?
I wonder if he might have grounds to sue the Portuguese judiciary as well for that, Misty, they did have a hand in it after all.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 21, 2016, 03:12:33 AM
I wonder if he might have grounds to sue the Portuguese judiciary as well for that, Misty, they did have a hand in it after all.
Wouldn't judicial immunity apply?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 21, 2016, 07:28:12 AM
Why last night were there denials as to what kate mccann said in her diaries ?
It seems some people are quite happy to see her serialize the lack of her sexual desires published in the that glorious tabloid of truth called the sun, %&5%£, but far less so to be reminded of her thoughts on Robert Murat which are well known.
Likewise why ask for cites on that, when both guests to the forum, as well as posters can easily find it for themselves.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: xtina on April 21, 2016, 07:47:54 AM
who do they think they are .....how much have they got left in THEIR fund ....and wonder what the remainder of that will end up being spent on
at least money donated into G A fund.............. was well spent ..... 8@??)( 8@??)(
News UK News Madeleine Mccann Madeleine McCann’s parents threaten legal action on people caught selling Gonzalo Amaral's book in UK
I have found some posts by sil and slarti quite rude but have not complained. I think we have been asked not to criticise mods openly on the forum and am surprised your posts have not been removed
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 21, 2016, 07:55:32 AM
I have found some posts by sil and slarti quite rude but have not complained. I think we have been asked not to criticise mods openly on the forum and am surprised your posts have not been removed
You have openly criticized some Mods on the forum pages and everyone is supposed to be subject to the same rules, are they not.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 21, 2016, 07:56:52 AM
The first enquiry was shelved in August 2008, with an archiving dispatch making plain there was no foundation or basis of accusation against the McCanns.
Then Amaral wrote a book saying TheMcCannsdunit.
And his right to say that appears on the brink of being upheld.
Disgraceful ....
When they overturned the interim injunction against the book the Appeal Court said;
We thus reach a point where it seems to be important to stress the following: the indicative facts that led to the applicants’ constitution as arguidos within the inquiry were later on not valued by the Public Ministry’s Magistrates in order to lead to a criminal accusation, but those very same facts, seen through another prism and with another base, may lead to a different conclusion from that which was attained by those same Magistrates – those are indications that were deemed to be insufficient in terms of evidence in a criminal investigation, but they can be appreciated in a different way, in an interpretation that is legitimate to be published as a literary work, as long as said interpretation does not offend any fundamental rights of anyone involved – and we have written above already why we understand that said interpretation does not offend the applicants’ rights. http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2010/10/lisbon-appeals-court-ruling.html
edited to correct court name. G
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on April 21, 2016, 08:31:40 AM
When they overturned the interim injunction against the book the Supreme Court said;
We thus reach a point where it seems to be important to stress the following: the indicative facts that led to the applicants’ constitution as arguidos within the inquiry were later on not valued by the Public Ministry’s Magistrates in order to lead to a criminal accusation, but those very same facts, seen through another prism and with another base, may lead to a different conclusion from that which was attained by those same Magistrates – those are indications that were deemed to be insufficient in terms of evidence in a criminal investigation, but they can be appreciated in a different way, in an interpretation that is legitimate to be published as a literary work, as long as said interpretation does not offend any fundamental rights of anyone involved – and we have written above already why we understand that said interpretation does not offend the applicants’ rights. http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2010/10/lisbon-appeals-court-ruling.html
This was the decision of the Tribunal da Relação not the Supreme Court.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 21, 2016, 08:52:43 AM
This was the decision of the Tribunal da Relação not the Supreme Court.
/ Sorry, I looked for 'Supreme Court' and got that. I didn't realise that the injunction fight finished at the Appeal Court. I've corrected my post. The McCanns gave up and went no higher in that case then?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2016, 08:57:55 AM
i think the latest decision is a disgrace and reflects badly on portugal and the portuguese justice system...it will be interesting to see what happens next......
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 21, 2016, 09:11:21 AM
i think the latest decision is a disgrace and reflects badly on portugal and the portuguese justice system...it will be interesting to see what happens next......
Having read through the judgement, I would say it was an excellent analysis of what happened and demonstrated quite amply the hypocrisy of the mccanns using the media for their own ends, and, that any chance of the mccanns appealing to the Supreme Court successfully has gone out of the window.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 21, 2016, 09:11:53 AM
In her notes dated July 18, almost two months after Maddie's disappearance and at a time when there are starting to appear indicia against the McCanns, Kate sounds disheartened and reinforces the accusations against Murat: "I had lots of hope that there would be progress in Murat's situation. I'm sure that he is involved and I feel like killing him, but I can't".
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id166.html
Oh for gods sake, Robert Murat was made a person of interest, Kate McCann thought he had something to do with Madeleine's disappearance, this was a woman under severe stress about her missing daughter, she wrote down what she thought in a private diary. Can you not imagine for one moment what this woman was going through?
Afterwards of course Murat was cleared.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 21, 2016, 09:15:41 AM
Oh for gods sake, Robert Murat was made a person of interest, Kate McCann thought he had something to do with Madeleine's disappearance, this was a woman under severe stress about her missing daughter, she wrote down what she thought in a private diary. Can you not imagine for one moment what this woman was going through?
Afterwards of course Murat was cleared.
On what basis did kate mccann dare think Murat was involved ?
That says everything about the woman who placed all her three children in needless danger.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 21, 2016, 09:15:46 AM
Having read through the judgement, I would say it was an excellent analysis of what happened and demonstrated quite amply the hypocrisy of the mccanns using the media for their own ends, and, that any chance of the mccanns appealing to the Supreme Court successfully has gone out of the window.
It doesn't stray from the fact that Amaral started the hostility towards the McCann's, that he was writing his book whilst still a Police Officer, that details were leaked which shouldn't have been under Portuguese strict confidentiality law and that he lied in his book about the DNA and the fact the McCann's drugged their daughter. We'll see.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 21, 2016, 09:17:38 AM
On what basis did kate mccann dare think Murat was involved ?
That says everything about the woman who placed all her three children in needless danger.
The Portuguese police under Amaral's instructions made Murat an arguido, that was enough for Kate to dare think Murat was involved, because AMARAL did!!!!
The second part of your post has no bearing on this subject.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 21, 2016, 09:19:39 AM
i think the latest decision is a disgrace and reflects badly on portugal and the portuguese justice system...it will be interesting to see what happens next......
If the decision is in accordance with the Portuguese judicial system, then it is a good decision. If the decision is not in accordance with the Portuguese judicial system, then it is a bad decision.
Anyone with a decent knowledge of the Portuguese judicial system plus access to the 16 page judgement is in a position to determine whether it is or is not in accordance with the law. The rest of us can't.
One may like or dislike the judgement. But to go from a position of relative ignorance of both the system and the judgement to criticising the system is folly.
To criticise the entire country of Portugal on the basis of one judgement is ... well, do I really have to spell that out?
Has the full judgement been published anywhere yet?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 21, 2016, 09:22:02 AM
The Portuguese police under Amaral's instructions made Murat an arguido, that was enough for Kate to dare think Murat was involved, because AMARAL did!!!!
The second part of your post has no bearing on this subject.
On whose statements did the PJ suspect Murat ?
As to the second, THAT IS WHERE THE CASE STARTED, so every relevance.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 21, 2016, 09:25:43 AM
Which journalist Lace, and let's not forget Tanner.
As to abductor, in your dreams.
The case started when the mccanns left their children ALONE.
This journalist Stephen - He appears to have been first brought to the attention of Portugese investigators by Lori Campbell, a Sunday Mirror journalist, for no other reason than he appeared ‘suspicious’ and his behaviour reminded her of Ian Huntley. - See more at: http://madeleinemccann.org/blog/2014/04/20/robert-murat/#sthash.Lgptuk0B.dpuf
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Benice on April 21, 2016, 09:31:13 AM
You forgot to say what led Kate to have such thoughts at that time:-
Quote from Kates book
''The two officer talked openly about Robert Murat, who remained an arguido, and drip- fed us snippets of 'evidence' linking him to Madeleine's disappearance. Not enough, apparently, to arrest and charge him. In some ways I wish now they hadn't done this. It served only to colour my judgement of Murat. They told us for example about a newspaper clipping they'd seized from his house, an article entitled 'Lock up Your Daughters', which claimed that Casanova had been a paedaphile. It made us shudder. Back then we feared everything, and perhaps understandably, leaped to the worst conclusions without pausing to consider innocent explanations. unquote
Kate goes on to say that once she read the PJ files in detail she found nothing to implicate Murat and that the police never had any credible case against him. .
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 21, 2016, 09:34:05 AM
If the decision is in accordance with the Portuguese judicial system, then it is a good decision. If the decision is not in accordance with the Portuguese judicial system, then it is a bad decision.
Anyone with a decent knowledge of the Portuguese judicial system plus access to the 16 page judgement is in a position to determine whether it is or is not in accordance with the law. The rest of us can't.
One may like or dislike the judgement. But to go from a position of relative ignorance of both the system and the judgement to criticising the system is folly.
To criticise the entire country of Portugal on the basis of one judgement is ... well, do I really have to spell that out?
Has the full judgement been published anywhere yet?
Do you think the McCanns have any prospect of a fair hearing in a Portuguese court system which apparently cannot bring itself to even pay lip service to Article 6 (2) of the ECHR?
Goncalo Amaral's was judged to have violated the McCann's right to the presumption of innocence ... that has been overturned.
Looking at the wider implications, I think that unilateral precedent affects many more than the McCanns.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 21, 2016, 09:38:58 AM
This journalist Stephen - He appears to have been first brought to the attention of Portugese investigators by Lori Campbell, a Sunday Mirror journalist, for no other reason than he appeared ‘suspicious’ and his behaviour reminded her of Ian Huntley. - See more at: http://madeleinemccann.org/blog/2014/04/20/robert-murat/#sthash.Lgptuk0B.dpuf
Oh I know full well by Lori Campbell. So when did she see Huntley then ?
So would you also like to tell me what involvement she had with the mccanns as well ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 21, 2016, 09:40:54 AM
You forgot to say what led Kate to have such thoughts at that time:-
Quote from Kates book
''The two officer talked openly about Robert Murat, who remained an arguido, and drip- fed us snippets of 'evidence' linking him to Madeleine's disappearance. Not enough, apparently, to arrest and charge him. In some ways I wish now they hadn't done this. It served only to colour my judgement of Murat. They told us for example about a newspaper clipping they'd seized from his house, an article entitled 'Lock up Your Daughters', which claimed that Casanova had been a paedaphile. It made us shudder. Back then we feared everything, and perhaps understandably, leaped to the worst conclusions without pausing to consider innocent explanations. unquote
Kate goes on to say that once she read the PJ files in detail she found nothing to implicate Murat and that the police never had any credible case against him. .
More evidence of the "professionalism" of the Portuguese police as well as the eagerness to cherry pick anything in the attempt to excoriate particularly Kate McCann. F****** W****** being another example.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 21, 2016, 09:41:30 AM
You forgot to say what led Kate to have such thoughts at that time:-
Quote from Kates book
''The two officer talked openly about Robert Murat, who remained an arguido, and drip- fed us snippets of 'evidence' linking him to Madeleine's disappearance. Not enough, apparently, to arrest and charge him. In some ways I wish now they hadn't done this. It served only to colour my judgement of Murat. They told us for example about a newspaper clipping they'd seized from his house, an article entitled 'Lock up Your Daughters', which claimed that Casanova had been a paedaphile. It made us shudder. Back then we feared everything, and perhaps understandably, leaped to the worst conclusions without pausing to consider innocent explanations. unquote
Kate goes on to say that once she read the PJ files in detail she found nothing to implicate Murat and that the police never had any credible case against him. .
You do realize benice, that not everyone believes that everything kate mccann 'wrote' in the book is true.
After all, it was written after the event.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Benice on April 21, 2016, 09:41:49 AM
wasnt the diary part of the investigation and in the files?
I don't think so mercury. IIRC a PT Judge ruled that it should not have been taken by the PJ and should be returned to Kate and any copies destroyed. It would seem elements of the PJ ignored that direction from a Judge - and once again with no repercussions.
From memory so am happy to be corrected if necessary.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 21, 2016, 09:43:24 AM
More evidence of the "professionalism" of the Portuguese police as well as the eagerness to cherry pick anything in the attempt to excoriate particularly Kate McCann. F****** W****** being another example.
Well that phrase really did personify kate mccanns eloquence, and her inability to accept responsibility for her own actions.
Also, IMO of course it reflects narcissism , in her personality.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Benice on April 21, 2016, 09:53:14 AM
I think that could prove to be a very interesting exercise and depends very much on how much he values his financial privacy.
If claiming financial loss there will of course be very close scrutiny of all financial sources and resources held by Mr Amaral, perhaps even close relatives may have their financial affairs investigated.
It will become public how much disposable income he was able to amass over the period. For example what he earned from television appearances ... how much his friends received in monetary gifts appealed for on his behalf over six or seven years, those accounts will be scrutinised ... etc. etc.
So could turn into a bit of a financial minefield for him ... but entirely for him to think about before deciding what punitive action to take ...
If he is going to claim loss of income due to the actions of others - then how does that affect those people who have translated and distributed his book over the internet giving free access to it to millions of people?
How can anyone differentiate between those who didn't buy the book because it was withdrawn from sale - from those who didn't buy the book because they could read it for free on the internet?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 21, 2016, 09:56:10 AM
Do you think the McCanns have any prospect of a fair hearing in a Portuguese court system which apparently cannot bring itself to even pay lip service to Article 6 (2) of the ECHR?
Goncalo Amaral's was judged to have violated the McCann's right to the presumption of innocence ... that has been overturned.
Looking at the wider implications, I think that unilateral precedent affects many more than the McCanns.
You have said this before and I posed a question then which you did not answer so lets try again. Do you have evidence to suggest that this has not been a fair trial to date?
"Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights is a provision of the European Convention which protects the right to a fair trial. In criminal law cases and cases to determine civil rights it protects the right to a public hearing before an independent and impartial tribunal within reasonable time, the presumption of innocence, and other minimum rights for those charged in a criminal case (adequate time and facilities to prepare their defence, access to legal representation, right to examine witnesses against them or have them examined, right to the free assistance of an interpreter)".
As we are perpetually reminded by our resident barrack room solicitors this is a civil case not a criminal case.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: faithlilly on April 21, 2016, 10:03:55 AM
An update from the OFM website ( not yet on their Facebook page )
Updates
19 April, 2016 - Statement from Gerry and Kate Regarding Libel Case
We are disappointed with today’s ruling from the Portuguese Appellate Court. As we have said in the past, this action has never been about money. It has always been focused on the effects of the libels on our other children and the damage that has been done to the search for Madeleine.
We will continue to defend ourselves against this libel and the search for our daughter. We will be appealing to the Portuguese Supreme Court.
Madeleine is still missing and we will do everything we can to get her home.
Thank you for your continued support.
Gerry and Kate
Was not about the money !!! Have they no shame ?
' We will continue to defend ourselves against this libel and the search for our daughter. We will be appealing to the Portuguese Supreme Court.' Does this make any sense ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 21, 2016, 10:05:14 AM
i think the latest decision is a disgrace and reflects badly on portugal and the portuguese justice system...it will be interesting to see what happens next......
The original ruling rested solely on whether Amaral was entitled to the same freedom of speech as any other Portuguese citizen. The judge said he was not, because his freedom of speech was restricted due to his former position as a police officer, and his present position as a retired police officer.
The Appeal Court disagreed with her opinion and upheld his right to freedom of speech.
I see the decision as a triumph for freedom of speech and a defeat for those who seek to restrict it.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 21, 2016, 10:08:25 AM
An update from the OFM website ( not yet on their Facebook page )
Updates
19 April, 2016 - Statement from Gerry and Kate Regarding Libel Case
We are disappointed with today’s ruling from the Portuguese Appellate Court. As we have said in the past, this action has never been about money. It has always been focused on the effects of the libels on our other children and the damage that has been done to the search for Madeleine.
We will continue to defend ourselves against this libel and the search for our daughter. We will be appealing to the Portuguese Supreme Court.
Madeleine is still missing and we will do everything we can to get her home.
Thank you for your continued support.
Gerry and Kate
Was not about the money !!! Have they no shame ?
' We will continue to defend ourselves against this libel and the search for our daughter. We will be appealing to the Portuguese Supreme Court.' Does this make any sense ?
Remind us what Judge Emilia said about that!
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 21, 2016, 10:11:01 AM
It doesn't stray from the fact that Amaral started the hostility towards the McCann's, that he was writing his book whilst still a Police Officer, that details were leaked which shouldn't have been under Portuguese strict confidentiality law and that he lied in his book about the DNA and the fact the McCann's drugged their daughter. We'll see.
All the bolded bits are either your opinion, not facts, or his opinion which the Appeal Court said he was allowed to express. They were not interested in when he wrote the book, just when it became available which was after the official files were released.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2016, 10:16:51 AM
The original ruling rested solely on whether Amaral was entitled to the same freedom of speech as any other Portuguese citizen. The judge said he was not, because his freedom of speech was restricted due to his former position as a police officer, and his present position as a retired police officer.
The Appeal Court disagreed with her opinion and upheld his right to freedom of speech.
I see the decision as a triumph for freedom of speech and a defeat for those who seek to restrict it.
so if I call someone on here liar...without evidence to support it...you will back me 100%. no you won't...because you only believe in freedom of speech when it suits you...more freedom of hypocrisy
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 21, 2016, 10:18:18 AM
All the bolded bits are either your opinion, not facts, or his opinion which the Appeal Court said he was allowed to express. They were not interested in when he wrote the book, just when it became available which was after the official files were released.
Lace's post (to which you reply) is entirely factual.
If Amaral had kept his accusations confined to the process where he was fully entitled to make them, there would have been no action by the McCanns; indeed, no basis for them to bring an action.
And if Amaral had respected the rules of confidentiality imposed upon him by his position, (as Rebelo, largely, managed to do) the same.
Amaral abused his position, breached laws of secrecy to which he was subject and accused without foundation.
Those are the facts ...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 21, 2016, 10:39:41 AM
Didn't want a lawyer?
I don't suppose Murat's lawyer, Fransciso Pagarete, will sue you.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 21, 2016, 10:41:41 AM
...
I am part of no group acting on anyone's behalf.
My views are my own.
How about you ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 21, 2016, 10:41:57 AM
Well that phrase really did personify kate mccanns eloquence, and her inability to accept responsibility for her own actions.
Also, IMO of course it reflects narcissism , in her personality.
That is one interpretation of why she was inaudibly saying F****** W***** there are of course very many others given the circumstances of the occasion.
Speaking for myself ... I think she was remarkably restrained and not the least narcissistic, merely distraught at the realisation no one was interested in looking for her missing child.
Goncalo Amaral's theory of death, which the Portuguese court opined didn't harm the search for Madeleine seemed to be the only ball game in town, and her mother realised that she was now the focus of the inquiry and not her missing child. In the circumstances I think her restraint admirable.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 21, 2016, 10:46:11 AM
... i dont think people should become so emotionally involved it isnt healthy
It most certainly isn't, but the McCann case seems to have this effect on people, judging by some of the vitriolic posts that apparently appear on Twitter & Facebook.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 21, 2016, 10:47:41 AM
That is one interpretation of why she was inaudibly saying F****** W***** there are of course very many others given the circumstances of the occasion.
Speaking for myself ... I think she was remarkably restrained and not the least narcissistic, merely distraught at the realisation no one was interested in looking for her missing child.
Goncalo Amaral's theory of death, which the Portuguese court opined didn't harm the search for Madeleine seemed to be the only ball game in town, and her mother realised that she was now the focus of the inquiry and not her missing child. In the circumstances I think her restraint admirable.
You have your view, I have mine.
Restraint ?
She and her husband are responsible for this case .
...........and there lies the nutshell.
They are always blaming others, for their own failings.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 21, 2016, 10:48:04 AM
I don't suppose Murat's lawyer, Fransciso Pagarete, will sue you.
Maybe it is required however........
"He (RM) is the first suspect who will be declared arguido. As such, he benefits from certain rights, one of them being to remain silent. But he does not assert that right and responds to all questions put to him. Despite obvious nervousness, his statements are clear and precise." TOTL
"We believe that the main damage was caused by the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain unclarified."
Some lady journalist on the Sun and Clarence Mitchell likening RM's behaviour to that of Ian Huntley as I recall.
This morning, somewhere in one of the threads PF has posted a chunk of Goncalo Amaral's freedom of expression in which Mr Amaral appears to be claiming kudos for it. Who needs a mere journalist?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 21, 2016, 10:49:13 AM
Do you think the McCanns have any prospect of a fair hearing in a Portuguese court system which apparently cannot bring itself to even pay lip service to Article 6 (2) of the ECHR?
Goncalo Amaral's was judged to have violated the McCann's right to the presumption of innocence ... that has been overturned.
Looking at the wider implications, I think that unilateral precedent affects many more than the McCanns.
I have no expertise in the relevant parts of Portuguese law. I have no expertise in Article 6 (2) of the ECHR. And I have not seen the full judgement.
So I am not in a position to state whether the relevant sections are in accordance with Art 6 (2) or not.
If the McCanns' lawyer thinks Art 6 (2) has been breached, she does not appear to be saying so in public.
Personally, I will simply wait to see what develops.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 21, 2016, 10:51:04 AM
She and her husband are responsible for this case .
...........and there lies the nutshell.
They are always blaming others, for their own failings.
they never did take personal responsibility for whatever did happen on that holiday did they ie they never told parents dont leave children alone etc
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 21, 2016, 10:57:23 AM
...
As far as I can discover the whole Calpol question originated from an interview with Kate's father, which was 'embroidered' by the Sun. Carana wrote:
The Sun then ran with it and added “to help her sleep” in the quote:
The Sun (7 Sept) Mr Healy said: “I know Kate and Gerry would not harm Madeleine at all.
“Kate may have used Calpol (to help her sleep),
This, of course, got slightly more mangled in the Portuguese papers, in which the Grandad was alleged to have said Kate must have given Calpol [to help her to sleep]… A copy even ended up in the police files:
Critique (of this judgement, not the whole Portuguese judiciary, and certainly not the country of Portugal) is what is being expressed here.
Portugal is a democracy, worthy of the name, and with a judiciary (at its best) highly commendable (as exemplified by the judgement Amaral appealed).
But this latest judgement (that upholds the right to accuse and traduce without let, hindrance or sanction) is simply fascist.
I'm (genuinely) sorry if that offends you, SIL, because I have long respected you as a poster, I think you were an excellent choice as appointment of moderator and I believe (in your moderating) you have richly rewarded the faith placed in you.
I also understand a sense of nationalism (or pride in one's nation) to which, I think, we are all prone.
I admit (to my shame) that it took me far longer than it should have to admit the truth of the tragic death of Brazilian Jean Paul de Menezes, a Brazilian national, going about his lawful business as an electrician, (mis)identified by security forces as some terrorist and shot, dead, on a tube train at Stockwell Station.
That's nationalism!
It's not a pleasant trait.
It is one we can all be prone to, that leaves us with blind-spots where failings or short-comings on the part of the State we are a part of and to which feel some allegiance comes to light.
It seems that Amaral's right to abuse his former position as coordinator of an investigation he bungled to accuse and traduce a couple wrongly accused by that investigation is about to be upheld by the Portuguese courts.
That is a disgrace.
It is also fascist.
I have no issue with people querying the judgment.
Amaral's ability to publish, taking into account his prior position as head of the investigation, seems very odd to me. But if he has broken any laws or regulations, I would expect to see someone other than the McCanns bringing him to task on this.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 21, 2016, 11:02:33 AM
As far as I can discover the whole Calpol question originated from an interview with Kate's father, which was 'embroidered' by the Sun. Carana wrote:
The Sun then ran with it and added “to help her sleep” in the quote:
The Sun (7 Sept) Mr Healy said: “I know Kate and Gerry would not harm Madeleine at all.
“Kate may have used Calpol (to help her sleep),
This, of course, got slightly more mangled in the Portuguese papers, in which the Grandad was alleged to have said Kate must have given Calpol [to help her to sleep]… A copy even ended up in the police files:
Almeida read what The Sun wrote and recorded in his interim report that 'the child's grandfather' said Kate and Gerry used 'sedatives' with the children.
Read his report.
It's all in there.
Amaral picked up on that in his book.
And Morais wrote a vicious blog about 'calpol night'.
Incidentally, you have linked to a sound blog, written by Bren.
Read it carefully.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 21, 2016, 11:02:43 AM
This morning, somewhere in one of the threads PF has posted a chunk of Goncalo Amaral's freedom of expression in which Mr Amaral appears to be claiming kudos for it. Who needs a mere journalist?
Do you think a policeman isn't going to reconstruct Jane Tanner's statement of the route the man took?
You need a lot more than what one journalist thinks to make somebody a formal suspect.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 21, 2016, 11:05:31 AM
I have no issue with people querying the judgment.
Amaral's ability to publish, taking into account his prior position as head of the investigation, seems very odd to me. But if he has broken any laws or regulations, I would expect to see someone other than the McCanns bringing him to task on this.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2016, 11:11:41 AM
I think the whole judgement is odd. This case is not closed yet. What the court has done is given carte blanche to a police officer to make public statements abut an unsolved case. If the McCanns were ever arrested and tried in portugal how would this affect their chance of a fair trial...tin pot justice...imo...but that is what we have come to expect from portugal...again imo
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 21, 2016, 11:19:38 AM
I think the whole judgement is odd. This case is not closed yet. What the court has done is given carte blanche to a police officer to make public statements abut an unsolved case. If the McCanns were ever arrested and tried in portugal how would this affect their chance of a fair trial...tin pot justice...imo...but that is what we have come to expect from portugal...again imo
If this were to happen, it would be a criminal case, possibly without a jury, so any civil action and findings should have little influence on the decisions made by the judges involved.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Benice on April 21, 2016, 11:22:14 AM
they never did take personal responsibility for whatever did happen on that holiday did they ie they never told parents dont leave children alone etc
Are you being serious? What would you have said if they had said to the public 'don't leave your children alone'. Would you and all other sceptics be praising them for doing that - or pointing out that you didn't need that advice in the first place and what a damn cheek they had for suggesting that you did? Do tell.
After knowing what happened to Madeleine, any parent with reasonable intelligence could work it out for themselves that leaving children alone on holiday posed dangers which they may not have previously considered.
Prior to Madeleine's case -the last child to be abducted abroad was Ben Needham 16 years before. I doubt if that was uppermost in the McCanns or any other holidaymakers minds when they were deciding what childcare arrangements they were going to make whilst they went for their evening meal.
Those parents who ignored what happened to Madeleine and continued to sign on to listening services and use baby alarms whilst on holiday are far more deserving of criticism that the McCanns ever were IMO.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 21, 2016, 11:34:19 AM
Do you think a policeman isn't going to reconstruct Jane Tanner's statement of the route the man took?
You need a lot more than what one journalist thinks to make somebody a formal suspect.
I totally agree ... but that was not the context of the discussion regarding whose nose first started twitching in Robert Murat's direction and how awful Kate McCann was reported to have been about him in a confidential document the PJ were barred from reading ~ let alone leak to the press.
As you posted earlier ...
... I am about to make enquiries of the police officer on duty when the individual comes back from his walk and greets him as he passes.
- You know that man?
- Yes, he presented himself to the GNR on Friday morning and offered his services as an interpreter. He is of English origin but speaks good Portuguese. He's called Robert Murat.
As the law demands, all foreign people interviewed by the police must have the benefit of an interpreter. In this investigation, the considerable number of interviews we had to conduct in record time forced us to call on the services of volunteers.
- And this guy, you checked him out? No criminal record or trouble with the law?
- No, no, it's all OK, but I didn't know he lived here. It's true that his house is on the route taken by the abductor.
...
I immediately telephone the team to alert them. The Director of the Department of Criminal Investigation in Faro has to be involved in a meeting the same morning, where we will discuss the case of Robert Murat.
...
His behaviour starts to seriously intrigue us. He often makes reference to similar cases that happened in the United Kingdom and which he seems to know in detail. He displays suspicious curiosity and seeks to know more. He offers to help us identify possible suspects. He knows the workings of the Ocean Club and the habits of the holiday-makers very well. He even, allegedly, tried secretly to access the investigation files. ...
...
If it's him that's holding Madeleine, we must monitor all his contacts and places he has access to.
I've absolutely no problem whatsoever with a police officer doing his job. My problem is if he's not very good at it and once something checks out move on to the next logical step, and stop clutching at straws.
My other problem is that in Portugal he is free to use his freedom of expression to organise a kangaroo court with innocent people as his target.
If he had only labelled his book as the work of fiction it obviously is everyone could have been saved a great deal of trouble.
One person's freedom of expression supersedes another's right to a good name (I think that appears in the Portuguese constitution ~ the good name bit) and not to be traduced and libelled. I can't quite make sense of that ... have the appeal judges just rewritten the constitution?
{Brietta - I have shortened the extract of TOTL, but I think the meaning of your post has been preserved. SIL}
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 21, 2016, 11:41:08 AM
I have no expertise in the relevant parts of Portuguese law. I have no expertise in Article 6 (2) of the ECHR. And I have not seen the full judgement.
So I am not in a position to state whether the relevant sections are in accordance with Art 6 (2) or not.
If the McCanns' lawyer thinks Art 6 (2) has been breached, she does not appear to be saying so in public.
Personally, I will simply wait to see what develops.
I don't think there is anything else to do but await developments.
I do not have the exact wording of the original damages award ... however it was found that Goncalo Amaral had denied the McCanns the presumption of innocence ... the appeal court judges did not uphold that.
I await with interest more learned opinions than mine on that ruling. As a layman ... that is mine.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 21, 2016, 11:51:01 AM
MOD NOTE After an improvement, things seem to have gotten worse.
1. Please do not post large slabs of TOTL. The chapters in that book are short, and long excerpts could lead to copyright issues, and possibly other issues if the latest decision were to be challenged and overturned.
2. People in real life, on here as members, and elsewhere as it so happens, have the right to be treated with respect, whether they hold the same view as you or not.
I have just deleted a whole swathe of posts that constitute personal attacks on the McCanns, Mr Amaral, Clarence Mitchell, and quite a number of posters on this forum.
You can express your opinion freely without resorting to such attacks. In the event that you consider a post to break the rules, please flag it but do not otherwise respond to it. Or please just leave it and give me some time to catch up on the backlog of posts, and I will delete or modify as necessary.
Kindly settle down a bit. I'm getting to the stage where it might be easier to find out how to award naughty points.
If you stick within the forum rules, your post stays as you posted it. If you breach the rules, it doesn't.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on April 21, 2016, 12:15:25 PM
if Duarte does not file a supreme court appeal within 30 days, this particular private legal case will be closed.
I was referring to the investigation into maddie's disappearance. If amaral really thinks the parents are involved what has his book done to the chances of them getting a fair trial.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 21, 2016, 12:19:05 PM
MOD NOTE After an improvement, things seem to have gotten worse.
1. Please do not post large slabs of TOTL. The chapters in that book are short, and long excerpts could lead to copyright issues, and possibly other issues if the latest decision were to be challenged and overturned.
2. People in real life, on here as members, and elsewhere as it so happens, have the right to be treated with respect, whether they hold the same view as you or not.
I have just deleted a whole swathe of posts that constitute personal attacks on the McCanns, Mr Amaral, Clarence Mitchell, and quite a number of posters on this forum.
You can express your opinion freely without resorting to such attacks. In the event that you consider a post to break the rules, please flag it but do not otherwise respond to it. Or please just leave it and give me some time to catch up on the backlog of posts, and I will delete or modify as necessary.
Kindly settle down a bit. I'm getting to the stage where it might be easier to find out how to award naughty points.
If you stick within the forum rules, your post stays as you posted it. If you breach the rules, it doesn't.
Thanks.
8(0(* A timely warning indeed, Shining ... Mr Amaral will be anxious to exploit his opportunity and won't take kindly to anything which might affect that ... which includes free distribution his instrument of freedom of expression.
McCanns threaten “anyone selling Amaral’s book in UK” with legal action
Negotiating with his publishers today, the former detective confirmed to the Resident that “what the McCanns are doing is illegal. I am in talks with my publishers for a book in the English language, as there is as yet no publisher in the UK, the USA, Australia, New Zealand - not even Amazon - that is selling it.
"The McCanns will learn to respect the right to opinion and freedom of expression”, he added - stressing that “any version” of Truth of the Lie in English that can be found on the Internet is also illegal, as neither he nor Guerra e Paz publishers have given their authorisation to translations.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 21, 2016, 12:22:02 PM
I should think that publishing is easy in this digital age, it's getting the book distributed and sold that is the problem.
I suppose on-line purchase from outside of UK, followed by download in one of a number of formats would be legal, as would placing adverts for the book in UK papers.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 21, 2016, 12:35:22 PM
I was referring to the investigation into maddie's disappearance. If amaral really thinks the parents are involved what has his book done to the chances of them getting a fair trial.
That could in part be ameliorated by Portugal allowing any case to be tried in England and Wales, which would be permissible.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 21, 2016, 12:40:12 PM
8(0(* A timely warning indeed, Shining ... Mr Amaral will be anxious to exploit his opportunity and won't take kindly to anything which might affect that ... which includes free distribution his instrument of freedom of expression.
McCanns threaten “anyone selling Amaral’s book in UK” with legal action
Negotiating with his publishers today, the former detective confirmed to the Resident that “what the McCanns are doing is illegal. I am in talks with my publishers for a book in the English language, as there is as yet no publisher in the UK, the USA, Australia, New Zealand - not even Amazon - that is selling it.
"The McCanns will learn to respect the right to opinion and freedom of expression”, he added - stressing that “any version” of Truth of the Lie in English that can be found on the Internet is also illegal, as neither he nor Guerra e Paz publishers have given their authorisation to translations.
So where does that leave his supporters who have spent years giving out the link to his 'illegally' translated book - encouraging and enabling potentially millions of people on the internet to 'illegally' read it for free and so depriving him of income from it?
He's obviously not at all happy with those actions by his own supporters.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 21, 2016, 12:48:48 PM
So where does that leave his supporters who have spent years giving out the link to his 'illegally' translated book - encouraging and enabling potentially millions of people on the internet to 'illegally' read it for free and so depriving him of income from it?
He's obviously not at all happy with those actions by his own supporters.
Needs must when the devil drives (what ever that means). Now he can enforce his intellectual property rights he would be daft not to. He could of course do it as a polite request to his supporters and then go horse foot and guns for the others. I know what I would do. Best if some "supporters" catch the last train to the coast I would think.......................
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 21, 2016, 12:49:13 PM
So where does that leave his supporters who have spent years giving out the link to his 'illegally' translated book - encouraging and enabling potentially millions of people on the internet to 'illegally' read it for free and so depriving him of income from it?
He's obviously not at all happy with those actions by his own supporters.
How sad. Too bad. Tis done now.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 21, 2016, 12:53:05 PM
so if I call someone on here liar...without evidence to support it...you will back me 100%. no you won't...because you only believe in freedom of speech when it suits you...more freedom of hypocrisy
It doesn't matter how you see the judgement or what you think Amaral did wrong. The opinions that count are those of the Appeal Court judges and they overturned the judgement of the lower court judge.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 21, 2016, 01:08:16 PM
It would be ironic if he had to sue all those generous donators to the GFM appeal who quoted from his book in the comments section.
I'm not too sure how much profit remains to be made from it unless he intends to amend it to bring it into line with some semblance of reality ... shouldn't be too much of a problem for him. Apparently last time round he seemed to be able to write it and have it printed in the couple of days between the archiving of Madeleine's case and the book signing.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 21, 2016, 01:16:23 PM
Why ever not. It would be a smooth move. The Brits will then have to pay all the court costs and the Brits cannot scream foul at the result. Job's a goodun
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 21, 2016, 01:18:49 PM
Are you being serious? What would you have said if they had said to the public 'don't leave your children alone'. Would you and all other sceptics be praising them for doing that - or pointing out that you didn't need that advice in the first place and what a damn cheek they had for suggesting that you did? Do tell.
After knowing what happened to Madeleine, any parent with reasonable intelligence could work it out for themselves that leaving children alone on holiday posed dangers which they may not have previously considered.
Prior to Madeleine's case -the last child to be abducted abroad was Ben Needham 16 years before. I doubt if that was uppermost in the McCanns or any other holidaymakers minds when they were deciding what childcare arrangements they were going to make whilst they went for their evening meal.
Those parents who ignored what happened to Madeleine and continued to sign on to listening services and use baby alarms whilst on holiday are far more deserving of criticism that the McCanns ever were IMO.
Children under 5 should never be left home alone.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 21, 2016, 01:30:29 PM
Why ever not. It would be a smooth move. The Brits will then have to pay all the court costs and the Brits cannot scream foul at the result. Job's a goodun
No Evidence. Let alone Proof.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 21, 2016, 01:31:56 PM
I don't think you will find many who disagree with you ~ particularly not the McCanns. But on the occasion of this triumph for the freedom of expression in Portugal it is worth bearing in mind that a little girl remains a missing person and her parents are still looking for her.
As already posted ...
**snip We will continue to defend ourselves against this libel and the search for our daughter. We will be appealing to the Portuguese Supreme Court.
Madeleine is still missing and we will do everything we can to get her home.
Thank you for your continued support.
Gerry and Kate
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 21, 2016, 01:36:22 PM
Lace's post (to which you reply) is entirely factual.
If Amaral had kept his accusations confined to the process where he was fully entitled to make them, there would have been no action by the McCanns; indeed, no basis for them to bring an action.
And if Amaral had respected the rules of confidentiality imposed upon him by his position, (as Rebelo, largely, managed to do) the same.
Amaral abused his position, breached laws of secrecy to which he was subject and accused without foundation.
Those are the facts ...
I have revisited Lace's post and highlighted why her 'facts' need supporting.
In reply to your 'facts'; the Appeal Court did not take the view that a retired police officer was bound by the laws of secrecy. Until another judgement is made that is no longer a fact. They thought there was no problem with him having a theory based on the facts of the investigation, or with him publishing his theory in his book.
Quote from: Lace on Today at 09:15:46 AM It doesn't stray from the fact that Amaral started the hostility towards the McCann's, [Cite that he started it?] that he was writing his book whilst still a Police Officer, [Retired] that details were leaked which shouldn't have been under Portuguese strict confidentiality law [Cite that it was him wot did it]and that he lied in his book about the DNA and the fact the McCann's drugged their daughter. [Part of his theory?] We'll see.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 21, 2016, 02:04:16 PM
Stating incorrect DNA results cannot be deemed to be a Thesis.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 21, 2016, 02:17:36 PM
An update from the OFM website ( not yet on their Facebook page )
Updates
19 April, 2016 - Statement from Gerry and Kate Regarding Libel Case
We are disappointed with today’s ruling from the Portuguese Appellate Court. As we have said in the past, this action has never been about money. It has always been focused on the effects of the libels on our other children and the damage that has been done to the search for Madeleine.
We will continue to defend ourselves against this libel and the search for our daughter. We will be appealing to the Portuguese Supreme Court.
Madeleine is still missing and we will do everything we can to get her home.
Thank you for your continued support.
Gerry and Kate
Was not about the money !!! Have they no shame ?
' We will continue to defend ourselves against this libel and the search for our daughter. We will be appealing to the Portuguese Supreme Court.' Does this make any sense ?
Their claims for recompense for the effects of the libels on their other children and for the damage that has been done to the search for Madeleine were rejected by the lower court.
Did they ever read and understand that judgement? Perhaps they should because they seem to have either misunderstood it or been misinformed as to why they were awarded damages.
Spending yet more money on an appeal is surely inadvisable unless they understand why they won in the first court and why the judgement was overturned on appeal.
Unless they fully understand their position it may well end up being about money when they are asked to pay what they could end up owing for the costs relating to the overturned injunction, the costs of the two hearings so far, and, possibly, the costs of a Supreme Court appeal if they lose again.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 21, 2016, 02:25:55 PM
Their claims for recompense for the effects of the libels on their other children and for the damage that has been done to the search for Madeleine were rejected by the lower court.
Did they ever read and understand that judgement? Perhaps they should because they seem to have either misunderstood it or been misinformed as to why they were awarded damages.
Spending yet more money on an appeal is surely inadvisable unless they understand why they won in the first court and why the judgement was overturned on appeal.
Unless they fully understand their position it may well end up being about money when they are asked to pay what they could end up owing for the costs relating to the overturned injunction, the costs of the two hearings so far, and, possibly, the costs of a Supreme Court appeal if they lose again.
Judging by the comment on the website did they understand the most recent judgment? Reference is made to libel but no libel has been proved either in the first trial or this one.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 21, 2016, 02:55:57 PM
I have revisited Lace's post and highlighted why her 'facts' need supporting.
In reply to your 'facts'; the Appeal Court did not take the view that a retired police officer was bound by the laws of secrecy. Until another judgement is made that is no longer a fact. They thought there was no problem with him having a theory based on the facts of the investigation, or with him publishing his theory in his book.
Quote from: Lace on Today at 09:15:46 AM It doesn't stray from the fact that Amaral started the hostility towards the McCann's, [Cite that he started it?] that he was writing his book whilst still a Police Officer, [Retired] that details were leaked which shouldn't have been under Portuguese strict confidentiality law [Cite that it was him wot did it]and that he lied in his book about the DNA and the fact the McCann's drugged their daughter. [Part of his theory?] We'll see.
Police sources tell tabloid reporters that the DNA tests are a "100% match" and the media swiftly turn on the McCanns.
There, how about that? now to whom were the DNA results sent?
As for him being retired when he wrote his book, when did the book go in to be published? There was a bit about this in the court case and the Judge said he broke the secrecy laws.
He states his theory as the truth though doesn't he? what does 'The TRUTH of the Lie' mean? At the start of his video he says, 'Let me tell you what really happened'.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2016, 03:20:00 PM
Judging by the comment on the website did they understand the most recent judgment? Reference is made to libel but no libel has been proved either in the first trial or this one.
they just can't stop telling lies can they..it's almost pathological
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 21, 2016, 05:31:34 PM
I've read the full judgement.
I don't think there's too much doubt that Dr Amaral should keep the cork firmly in place inside the bottle.
This judgement glosses over/ignores/disregards that Amaral breached judicial secrecy in writing his book, and thus did not (contrary to the assertion of this judgement) create the 'free market place of exchange of ideas' to which this judgement (essentially) appeals: whereby Amaral and Kate and Gerry could exchange views, insults, opinions (and all the rest) without fear of legal reprisal (on either side).
Because it is clearly and unequivocally established that Amaral did breach judicial secrecy, that state (of virtual annulment of the usual rules of libel) simply doesn't apply.
I predict that Isabel will drive a coach-and-horses through this judgement.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 21, 2016, 05:42:58 PM
Police sources tell tabloid reporters that the DNA tests are a "100% match" and the media swiftly turn on the McCanns.
There, how about that? now to whom were the DNA results sent?
As for him being retired when he wrote his book, when did the book go in to be published? There was a bit about this in the court case and the Judge said he broke the secrecy laws.
He states his theory as the truth though doesn't he? what does 'The TRUTH of the Lie' mean? At the start of his video he says, 'Let me tell you what really happened'.
So are you saying that when someone said 'the police source' they actually meant 'Amaral'? How clever of you. If you're able to work that out, perhaps you tell me who 'a source close to the McCanns' is?
Whatever the judge of the lower court said has been overturned by the judges of the Appeal Court. Amaral did not break any secrecy laws.
I think the lie was the abduction story, the truth was what really happened to Madeleine.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 21, 2016, 05:44:48 PM
I don't think there's too much doubt that Dr Amaral should keep the cork firmly in place inside the bottle.
This judgement glosses over/ignores/disregards that Amaral breached judicial secrecy in writing his book, and thus did not (contrary to the assertion of this judgement) create the 'free market place of exchange of ideas' to which this judgement (essentially) appeals: whereby Amaral and Kate and Gerry could exchange views, insults, opinions (and all the rest) without fear of legal reprisal (on either side).
Because it is clearly and unequivocally established that Amaral did breach judicial secrecy, that state (of virtual annulment of the usual rules of libel) simply doesn't apply.
I predict that Isabel will drive a coach-and-horses through this judgement.
There are several points that I find odd in this ruling.
One to start with:
The point concerning how the publishers could have possibly turned around a raw manuscript and churned it into a book, complete with photoshopped line drawings of the original file photos and had the book laid out and printed and on sale within days without have broken judicial secrecy doesn't appear to have been addressed.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 21, 2016, 05:54:07 PM
There are several points that I find odd in this ruling.
One to start with:
The point concerning how the publishers could have possibly turned around a raw manuscript and churned it into a book, complete with photoshopped line drawings of the original file photos and had the book laid out and printed and on sale within days without have broken judicial secrecy doesn't appear to have been addressed.
Nothing to concern us, really, as it's all in the hands of lawyers.
We'll know within a month if an appeal has been submitted. If not, it will be of no importance.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 21, 2016, 06:03:38 PM
There are several points that I find odd in this ruling.
One to start with:
The point concerning how the publishers could have possibly turned around a raw manuscript and churned it into a book, complete with photoshopped line drawings of the original file photos and had the book laid out and printed and on sale within days without have broken judicial secrecy doesn't appear to have been addressed.
Was he being charged with having broken judicial secrecy ? if not it has no relevance. The issue was: were the files released before Sr Amarals book was on sale
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 21, 2016, 06:08:47 PM
Was he being charged with having broken judicial secrecy ? if not it has no relevance. The issue was: were the files released before Sr Amarals book was on sale
Wrong, on all counts.
The issue is whether Amaral breached judicial secrecy (in writing his book)
Amaral breached judicial secrecy (in writing his book).
Therefore the likelihood is that the supreme court will re-instate the decision of the first-instance court.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 21, 2016, 06:13:14 PM
I guess we need to wait and see if it goes that far.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 21, 2016, 06:18:57 PM
I don't think there's too much doubt that Dr Amaral should keep the cork firmly in place inside the bottle.
This judgement glosses over/ignores/disregards that Amaral breached judicial secrecy in writing his book, and thus did not (contrary to the assertion of this judgement) create the 'free market place of exchange of ideas' to which this judgement (essentially) appeals: whereby Amaral and Kate and Gerry could exchange views, insults, opinions (and all the rest) without fear of legal reprisal (on either side).
Because it is clearly and unequivocally established that Amaral did breach judicial secrecy, that state (of virtual annulment of the usual rules of libel) simply doesn't apply.
I predict that Isabel will drive a coach-and-horses through this judgement.
They've been saying that since 2010. They reported him to the PJ who didn't want to know. The Appeal Court threw it out this time too. The facts he used to support his theory were in the public domain, so were not secrets.
In effect, and independently of the reasons invoked by the appellant for the publication, it is hardly understandable that an employee, even more a retired one, would have to keep said duties of secrecy and reserve, thus being limited in the exercise of his right to an opinion, concerning the interpretation of facts that were already made public by the judiciary authority, and widely debated (in fact, largely by initiative of the intervenients themselves) in the national and international media. http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
Perhaps you can provide a cite to refute mine?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 21, 2016, 06:19:20 PM
Was he being charged with having broken judicial secrecy ? if not it has no relevance. The issue was: were the files released before Sr Amarals book was on sale
It's a civil case, so he wasn't actually "charged" with anything.
How on earth the entire publishing process (from initial writing to manuscript editing to "line drawings" of file photos, to layout, proof-reading, printing and distribution) could have been completed with a book for sale on the shelves within a few days without violating judicial secrecy is beyond my comprehension.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 21, 2016, 06:25:12 PM
The issue is whether Amaral breached judicial secrecy (in writing his book)
Amaral breached judicial secrecy (in writing his book).
Therefore the likelihood is that the supreme court will re-instate the decision of the first-instance court.
You believe that if you wish. The trial was about damage caused by the content of the book not breaking judicial secrecy. The damages have been ruled as zilch, nada, fa to steal your expressions. What do suppose the mechanism is for someone being found guilty of an offence with which he hasn't been charged while defending another charge. One of which is criminal and one of which is civil ? Try to think about it without names attached. As for your prediction well you are one nil down at present so there is no good track record there.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 21, 2016, 06:26:53 PM
It's a civil case, so he wasn't actually "charged" with anything.
How on earth the entire publishing process (from initial writing to manuscript editing to "line drawings" of file photos, to layout, proof-reading, printing and distribution) could have been completed with a book for sale on the shelves within a few days without violating judicial secrecy is beyond my comprehension.
Look up "Delay" in construction contract law. That may give you a clue how these things work.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2016, 06:28:11 PM
You believe that if you wish. The trial was about damage caused by the content of the book not breaking judicial secrecy. The damages have been ruled as zilch, nada, fa to steal your expressions. What do suppose the mechanism is for someone being found guilty of an offence with which he hasn't been charged while defending another charge. One of which is criminal and one of which is civil ? Try to think about it without names attached. As for your prediction well you are one nil down at present so there is no good track record there.
with respect in the circumstances one nil down is not statistically significant
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 21, 2016, 06:29:50 PM
They've been saying that since 2010. They reported him to the PJ who didn't want to know. The Appeal Court threw it out this time too. The facts he used to support his theory were in the public domain, so were not secrets.
In effect, and independently of the reasons invoked by the appellant for the publication, it is hardly understandable that an employee, even more a retired one, would have to keep said duties of secrecy and reserve, thus being limited in the exercise of his right to an opinion, concerning the interpretation of facts that were already made public by the judiciary authority, and widely debated (in fact, largely by initiative of the intervenients themselves) in the national and international media. http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
Perhaps you can provide a cite to refute mine?
The question of whether the Portuguese authorities choose to pursue (separate) criminal proceedings in respect of Amaral's breach of judicial secrecy is incidental to the key question of how Amaral's (undisputed) breach of judicial secrecy (in writing his book) affects the civil libel action brought by the McCanns.
If Amaral had, indeed, managed to write his book without breaching judicial secrecy (he did not!) chances are Amaral would have been outright winner at first instance and would be free to pile the commercial market with his book of lies.
Amaral breached judicial secrecy.
That is what makes a nonsense of this (latest) ruling, and why the McCanns are likely to win on (further) appeal to the Supreme Court.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 21, 2016, 06:36:44 PM
You believe that if you wish. The trial was about damage caused by the content of the book not breaking judicial secrecy. The damages have been ruled as zilch, nada, fa to steal your expressions. What do suppose the mechanism is for someone being found guilty of an offence with which he hasn't been charged while defending another charge. One of which is criminal and one of which is civil ? Try to think about it without names attached. As for your prediction well you are one nil down at present so there is no good track record there.
Amaral's breach (of judicial secrecy) is the key to (the nonsense) of the present ruling.
The question (of whether the Portuguese authorities choose to pursue separate criminal proceedings in respect of that breach, or whether they don't) we can ignore (here).
The key question is how the (proven and undisputed) breach affects the civil proceedings brought by the McCanns.
It affects those proceedings by meaning that Amaral breached his obligation to keep his mouth shut about confidential matters (in spreading his lies in his book).
Seems as if Amaral would have had carte blanche (to spread his lies) if only he hadn't breached judicial secrecy.
He breached judicial secrecy.
He didn't have that freedom.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 21, 2016, 06:36:50 PM
It's a civil case, so he wasn't actually "charged" with anything.
How on earth the entire publishing process (from initial writing to manuscript editing to "line drawings" of file photos, to layout, proof-reading, printing and distribution) could have been completed with a book for sale on the shelves within a few days without violating judicial secrecy is beyond my comprehension.
Presumably it wasn't considered relevant.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 21, 2016, 06:37:49 PM
Amaral's breach (of judicial secrecy) is the key to (the nonsense) of the present ruling.
The question (of whether the Portuguese authorities choose to pursue separate criminal proceedings in respect of that breach, or whether they don't) we can ignore (here).
The key question is how the (proven and undisputed) breach affects the civil proceedings brought by the McCanns.
It affects those proceedings by meaning that Amaral breached his obligation to keep his mouth shut about confidential matters (in spreading his lies in his book).
Seems as if Amaral would have had carte blanche (to spread his lies) if only he hadn't breached judicial secrecy.
He breached judicial secrecy.
He didn't have that freedom.
You'd be better telling the judges rather than us.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 21, 2016, 06:38:24 PM
The question of whether the Portuguese authorities choose to pursue (separate) criminal proceedings in respect of Amaral's breach of judicial secrecy is incidental to the key question of how Amaral's (undisputed) breach of judicial secrecy (in writing his book) affects the civil libel action brought by the McCanns.
If Amaral had, indeed, managed to write his book without breaching judicial secrecy (he did not!) chances are Amaral would have been outright winner at first instance and would be free to pile the commercial market with his book of lies.
Amaral breached judicial secrecy.
That is what makes a nonsense of this (latest) ruling, and why the McCanns are likely to win on (further) appeal to the Supreme Court.
Thinking about it, breaking judicial secrecy might not come under the civil appeal remit. If a complaint about that had indeed been filed (as a criminal offence), it might still be somewhere in the chain and not resolved at this time.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 21, 2016, 06:39:37 PM
The question of whether the Portuguese authorities choose to pursue (separate) criminal proceedings in respect of Amaral's breach of judicial secrecy is incidental to the key question of how (in writing his book) affects the civil libel action brought by the McCanns.
If Amaral had, indeed, managed to write his book without breaching judicial secrecy (he did not!) chances are Amaral would have been outright winner at first instance and would be free to pile the commercial market with his book of lies.
Amaral breached judicial secrecy.
That is what makes a nonsense of this (latest) ruling, and why the McCanns are likely to win on (further) appeal to the Supreme Court.
You are unable to provide a cite to support your assertion I take it? If so, you should not post it as a fact.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 21, 2016, 06:40:31 PM
The question of whether the Portuguese authorities choose to pursue (separate) criminal proceedings in respect of Amaral's breach of judicial secrecy is incidental to the key question of how Amaral's (undisputed) breach of judicial secrecy (in writing his book) affects the civil libel action brought by the McCanns.
If Amaral had, indeed, managed to write his book without breaching judicial secrecy (he did not!) chances are Amaral would have been outright winner at first instance and would be free to pile the commercial market with his book of lies.
Amaral breached judicial secrecy.
That is what makes a nonsense of this (latest) ruling, and why the McCanns are likely to win on (further) appeal to the Supreme Court.
This has already been pointed out by another poster. Gonçalo Amaral cannot be convicted of a "crime" for which he has not been charged. His hierarchy in the PJ never raised the issue of breach of judicial secrecy, so bringing this issue up in a civil hearing is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 21, 2016, 06:43:07 PM
This has already been pointed out by another poster. Gonçalo Amaral cannot be convicted of a "crime" for which he has not been charged. His hierarchy in the PJ never raised the issue of breach of judicial secrecy, so bringing this issue up in a civil hearing is irrelevant.
Was it filed? Even if it was, with everything going on in PT at the moment, the issue may not be on the top of the pile.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 21, 2016, 06:45:57 PM
This has already been pointed out by another poster. Gonçalo Amaral cannot be convicted of a "crime" for which he has not been charged. His hierarchy in the PJ never raised the issue of breach of judicial secrecy, so bringing this issue up in a civil hearing is irrelevant.
Nothing has been pointed out.
A non-sequitur (or red-herring) has been raised.
Because Amaral breached judicial secrecy, he does not have the freedom (to issue forth lies and traducement) he would otherwise have.
He may (or may not) be prosecuted in separate criminal proceedings.
That is irrelevant (to this discussion).
Because he breached judicial secrecy, he is accountable for the lies he issued forth in his book and in interviews.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 21, 2016, 06:56:07 PM
Thinking about it, breaking judicial secrecy might not come under the civil appeal remit. If a complaint about that had indeed been filed (as a criminal offence), it might still be somewhere in the chain and not resolved at this time.
It's six years since Duarte said she was going to file a complaint but I don't know if she did, they may have decided it would be more lucrative to sue, like they did with the UK newspapers.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2016, 06:59:36 PM
This has already been pointed out by another poster. Gonçalo Amaral cannot be convicted of a "crime" for which he has not been charged. His hierarchy in the PJ never raised the issue of breach of judicial secrecy, so bringing this issue up in a civil hearing is irrelevant.
no it isn't...just because you have not been found guilty in a criminal court for an offence does not mean a claim cannot be made in a civil court...as OJ Simpson found out
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 21, 2016, 06:59:36 PM
It's six years since Duarte said she was going to file a complaint but I don't know if she did, they may have decided it would be more lucrative to sue, like they did with the UK newspapers.
Not one of their better ideas when you consider how long this has dragged and with no apparent end in sight.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 21, 2016, 07:01:46 PM
What I don't understand is if the full files were already in the public domain when the book was published, why don't the contents of the book reflect the conclusion of the AG upon shelving?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 21, 2016, 07:02:59 PM
The question of whether the Portuguese authorities choose to pursue (separate) criminal proceedings in respect of Amaral's breach of judicial secrecy is incidental to the key question of how Amaral's (undisputed) breach of judicial secrecy (in writing his book) affects the civil libel action brought by the McCanns.
If Amaral had, indeed, managed to write his book without breaching judicial secrecy (he did not!) chances are Amaral would have been outright winner at first instance and would be free to pile the commercial market with his book of lies.
Amaral breached judicial secrecy.
That is what makes a nonsense of this (latest) ruling, and why the McCanns are likely to win on (further) appeal to the Supreme Court.
No chance.
If they half a brain they would stop now.
However, their arrogance knows no bounds.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 21, 2016, 07:12:23 PM
Breaching judicial secrecy wasn't the main issue: it was the timing of it all.
Differ slightly.
Breaching judicial secrecy was the main issue, but not from a perspective of (possible) criminal proceedings that issue from that breach: rather from the perspective that had he not breached judicial secrecy, he would, indeed, have carte-blanche to say whatever he wanted without let, hindrance or fear of any reprisal (criminal or civil) ....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 21, 2016, 07:15:42 PM
Please provide a cite to support your assertion or stop posting it as a fact.
From the judgement:
Quote
And, under such terms, although the introductory note in the book invokes personal reasons, in a situation of conflict with the rights to a good name and reputation of the subjects of the appeal, the appellant [Gonçalo Amaral] could not benefit, faced with the results of the investigation, of a broad and full freedom of expression – and thus his conduct would be unlawful, under article 484 of the Civil Code.
From what was above said about this matter, it is clearly understood that such argumentation cannot be sustained.
In effect, and independently of the reasons invoked by the appellant for the publication, it is hardly understandable that an employee, even more a retired one, would have to keep said duties of secrecy and reserve, thus being limited in the exercise of his right to an opinion, concerning the interpretation of facts that were already made public by the judiciary authority, and widely debated (in fact, largely by initiative of the intervenients themselves) in the national and international media.
That (from the judgement) is a straightforward denial of Amaral's (actual!) duty to observe the rules of secrecy his (former) position as co-ordinator of the investigation imposed upon him.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 21, 2016, 07:19:45 PM
You are omitting the 'hardly understandable'. which I think changes to meaning of the following text to the exact opposite of what you are claiming.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 21, 2016, 07:20:50 PM
What I don't understand is if the full files were already in the public domain when the book was published, why don't the contents of the book reflect the conclusion of the AG upon shelving?
At some point he said that it was based on the contents of the files up until he was taken off the case, and was too busy with his best-seller book promo tour to read the full files. But then, at times he added certain details in interviews that seemingly took place after he'd left.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 21, 2016, 07:24:20 PM
That (from the judgement) is a straightforward denial of Amaral's (actual!) duty to observe the rules of secrecy his (former) position as co-ordinator of the investigation imposed upon him.
You misunderstand I'm afraid.
In effect, and independently of the reasons invoked by the appellant for the publication, it is hardly understandable that an employee, even more a retired one, would have to keep said duties of secrecy and reserve, thus being limited in the exercise of his right to an opinion, concerning the interpretation of facts that were already made public by the judiciary authority, and widely debated (in fact, largely by initiative of the intervenients themselves) in the national and international media.
What they [3 judges btw] said is he didn't have to observe secrecy even if he was employed, but more so as he was retired. Particularly as those facts had been made public by the judiciary authority and had been debated by the media.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2016, 07:45:55 PM
In effect, and independently of the reasons invoked by the appellant for the publication, it is hardly understandable that an employee, even more a retired one, would have to keep said duties of secrecy and reserve, thus being limited in the exercise of his right to an opinion, concerning the interpretation of facts that were already made public by the judiciary authority, and widely debated (in fact, largely by initiative of the intervenients themselves) in the national and international media.
What they [3 judges btw] said is he didn't have to observe secrecy even if he was employed, but more so as he was retired. Particularly as those facts had been made public by the judiciary authority and had been debated by the media.
Who does the duty to shut up about a case you were involved in apply to then?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 21, 2016, 07:56:33 PM
Now wouldn't it be lovely to see all the mccanns assets seized as were Amaral's , including I believe his pension.
8)--))
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 21, 2016, 07:57:08 PM
NO ....It's you that is wrong John....thought I would have a look at my previous posts on this....looks like my prediction was absolutely correct
Amaral is basically bankrupt...both financially and morally. He has been humiliated totally by the court in his own country. He has a choice of handing all his money to the McCanns or appealing. The appeal won't cost him apenny because he has nothing. He can count on the financial support of a handful of misguided supporters and who knows...if an appeal is allowed he just may get a better result next time...and if he doesn't...he has lost nothing
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on April 21, 2016, 07:58:40 PM
IIRC, it was in January 2010, during the hearings for the injunction, the McCanns, accompanied by Dra Isabel Duarte, rushed to the court house in Oeiras (I think) to file a criminal complaint against Gonçalo Amaral for breach of judicial secrecy. The complaint was rejected by the Ministério Público. Since, ID did not succeed with the complaint she tried to slip it in the damages trial.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2016, 08:00:38 PM
IIRC, it was in January 2010, during the hearings for the injunction, the McCanns, accompanied by Dra Isabel Duarte, rushed to the court house in Oeiras (I think) to file a criminal complaint against Gonçalo Amaral for breach of judicial secrecy. The complaint was rejected away by the Ministério Público. Since, ID did not succeed with the complaint she tried to slip it in the damages trial.
And, clearly, has been rejected again.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 21, 2016, 08:02:45 PM
Of course we'd have been thrilled; and we are dismayed that ham-fisted and awry application of Portugal law has delayed confirmation of a another legal cheque-list the McCanns can tick off in their quest for truth, justice and the return of their daughter ....
Shouldn't that have been check? Maybe not..... @)(++(*
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 21, 2016, 08:04:44 PM
NO ....It's you that is wrong John....thought I would have a look at my previous posts on this....looks like my prediction was absolutely correct
Amaral is basically bankrupt...both financially and morally. He has been humiliated totally by the court in his own country. He has a choice of handing all his money to the McCanns or appealing. The appeal won't cost him apenny because he has nothing. He can count on the financial support of a handful of misguided supporters and who knows...if an appeal is allowed he just may get a better result next time...and if he doesn't...he has lost nothing
Not anymore.
You need a rapid dose of reality.
The mccanns lost big time in the Portuguese appeal court.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 21, 2016, 08:04:48 PM
Who does the duty to shut up about a case you were involved in apply to then?
I really don't know where these judges were coming from their attitude seems remarkably archaic with no understanding at all of the importance of publicising of a missing child.
My interpretation of the part of the decision I have read so far is that it reveals a total misconception about what it was the McCanns were doing when they made themselves available for interview with the press.
Apparently the efforts they made to publicise their missing child negated their rights and was looked upon as them expressing an opinion.
Which tit for tat in the eyes of the judges meant … they were pushing their theory of abduction, therefore Goncalo Amaral was entitled to write a book to promote his.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 21, 2016, 08:07:44 PM
Amaral is basically bankrupt...both financially and morally. He has been humiliated totally by the court in his own country. He has a choice of handing all his money to the McCanns or appealing. The appeal won't cost him apenny because he has nothing. He can count on the financial support of a handful of misguided supporters and who knows...if an appeal is allowed he just may get a better result next time...and if he doesn't...he has lost nothing
its on about pg 4 of the other thread.....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2016, 08:22:27 PM
NO ....It's you that is wrong John....thought I would have a look at my previous posts on this....looks like my prediction was absolutely correct
Amaral is basically bankrupt...both financially and morally. He has been humiliated totally by the court in his own country. He has a choice of handing all his money to the McCanns or appealing. The appeal won't cost him apenny because he has nothing. He can count on the financial support of a handful of misguided supporters and who knows...if an appeal is allowed he just may get a better result next time...and if he doesn't...he has lost nothing
Here again we have the use of the remarkable old english unit of measure - the handful. From the child's bed to the restaurant was only a "handful" of yards, and Mr Amaral has only a "handful" of supporters. What this unit lacks in scientific accuracy it more than makes up for in slipperyness and charisma. Perhaps we mathematicians could suggest it at the next CGPM as a welcome addition to to the boringly accurate SI system Davel?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 21, 2016, 08:23:28 PM
Amaral is basically bankrupt...both financially and morally. He has been humiliated totally by the court in his own country. He has a choice of handing all his money to the McCanns or appealing. The appeal won't cost him apenny because he has nothing. He can count on the financial support of a handful of misguided supporters and who knows...if an appeal is allowed he just may get a better result next time...and if he doesn't...he has lost nothing
its on about pg 4 of the other thread.....
Now let's see all your comments from the last court case.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 21, 2016, 08:24:17 PM
Here again we have the use of the remarkable old english unit of measure - the handful. From the child's bed to the restaurant was only a "handful" of yards, and Mr Amaral has only a "handful" of supporters. What this unit lacks in scientific accuracy it more than makes up for in slipperyness and charisma. Perhaps we mathematicians could suggest it at the next CGPM as a welcome addition to to the boringly accurate SI system Davel?
*&*%£
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 21, 2016, 08:24:35 PM
Amaral is basically bankrupt...both financially and morally. He has been humiliated totally by the court in his own country. He has a choice of handing all his money to the McCanns or appealing. The appeal won't cost him apenny because he has nothing. He can count on the financial support of a handful of misguided supporters and who knows...if an appeal is allowed he just may get a better result next time...and if he doesn't...he has lost nothing
its on about pg 4 of the other thread.....
Give a link.
If that post has been amended, it has no value.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2016, 08:26:19 PM
Then give the links to your other comments to the previous judgement and predictions of this one.
and on the same page I say although I am delighted with the judgement I realise the appeals could drag on for years...
I'm still delighted with the outcome...we all knew it could drag on with appeals...it's great that amaral has been humiliated by his own countries court
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2016, 08:35:58 PM
and on the same page I say although I am delighted with the judgement I realise the appeals could drag on for years...
I'm still delighted with the outcome...we all knew it could drag on with appeals...it's great that amaral has been humiliated by his own countries court
Now the mccanns are totally humiliated all around the world.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 21, 2016, 08:40:01 PM
the mcann supporters havent been very graceful in defeat have they?
Nah.
Gloat last time, bleat this time.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on April 21, 2016, 08:51:19 PM
Here's an opportunity to make a prediction Davel. Will Duarte lodge an appeal to the Supreme Court? Then, in less than 30 days time, we'll see if you were right. BTW my prediction is : No.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 21, 2016, 08:52:42 PM
i just read that portugal supreme courts will not even think about entertaining civil squabbles in this case 8)--))
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2016, 08:53:25 PM
When many were saying that amaral didn't have a chance...remember... I had the insight...intelligence...call it what you will...to realise he just might win his appeal
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 21, 2016, 08:53:40 PM
Here's an opportunity to make a prediction Davel. Will Duarte lodge an appeal to the Supreme Court? Then, in less than 30 days time, we'll see if you were right. BTW my prediction is : No.
What a question. Is he allowed to confer or ask a friend? @)(++(*
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2016, 08:55:41 PM
Here's an opportunity to make a prediction Davel. Will Duarte lodge an appeal to the Supreme Court? Then, in less than 30 days time, we'll see if you were right. BTW my prediction is : No.
I would say she will...but there again perhaps I have inside information
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2016, 08:56:30 PM
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 21, 2016, 08:58:05 PM
i wonder if what i read is true about portugese supreme court not dealign with civil cases??
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 21, 2016, 08:59:21 PM
@Pegasus Will Goncalo Amaral sue all those supporters who have posted free English translations of his book online, breaching copyright & depriving him of income?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 21, 2016, 09:01:02 PM
i wonder if what i read is true about portugese supreme court not dealign with civil cases??
It's not true, Carly.
http://countrystudies.us/portugal/82.htm *snipped* The Supreme Court of Justice is designated the "highest court of law," but "without prejudice to the jurisdiction of the Constitutional Court," and heads the court system that deals with civil and criminal cases. The courts of first instance (the first courts to try a case) are the municipal and district courts; the courts of second instance are, as a rule, courts of appeal. As of the early 1990s, there were four of these latter courts. The Supreme Court of Justice may serve as a court of first instance in some cases and as an appeals court in others.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 21, 2016, 09:09:49 PM
I suppose there is a difference between being able to hear an appeal and choosing to hear one.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 21, 2016, 09:13:28 PM
Google (has) provided the definitive answer on this one.
Not really . It says that the Supreme Court can hear civil cases, not that it invariably will hear them.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 21, 2016, 09:22:55 PM
Here's another link to the role of the Supreme Court. Perhaps one of Isa's friends could post it to her. http://www.lexadin.nl/wlg/courts/nofr/eur/lxctpor.htm
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 21, 2016, 09:23:42 PM
@Pegasus Will Goncalo Amaral sue all those supporters who have posted free English translations of his book online, breaching copyright & depriving him of income?
IMO he won't. I would recommend that Mr Amaral should release an online version of the book free. BTW I would also suggest that KM should release an online version of her book free.
Both authors wrote their books honestly and sincerely with the overriding aim of ensuring the case is solved. Therefore it would be absurd to act against their free availability online.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ChloeR on April 21, 2016, 09:50:28 PM
I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree here. Everything is about the money in this whole sorry story.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ChloeR on April 21, 2016, 09:51:47 PM
welcome chloe we are friendly here a few are a bit angry about the results though but dont worry about them
Thank you. I have read the forum for a few months now and delayed joining as it didn't seem the friendliest of places from the outside looking in. But I felt the need to join after the news about the appeal :)
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 21, 2016, 09:56:07 PM
Thank you. I have read the forum for a few months now and delayed joining as it didn't seem the friendliest of places from the outside looking in. But I felt the need to join after the news about the appeal :)
Welcome Chloe.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 21, 2016, 10:03:17 PM
That is the attitude of the mccanns and some of their supporters.
What goes around comes around. If they thought Amaral was going to submit they now know he'll never bow down to them. They got it right it's called a FIGHTING fund.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 21, 2016, 10:17:11 PM
Thank you. I have read the forum for a few months now and delayed joining as it didn't seem the friendliest of places from the outside looking in. But I felt the need to join after the news about the appeal :)
Welcome Chloe. It's not an easy forum but it's unique in that it reflects different opinions. The news about the appeal was seen as good news by lots of people.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 21, 2016, 10:24:39 PM
Welcome Chloe. Don't worry, its fairly well moderated so you wont get it descending to a twitter type level. But if anyone bullies you, just hit the report button. The vast majority of peple on here are capable of being civil and following the rules most of the time.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 21, 2016, 11:03:11 PM
I really don't know where these judges were coming from their attitude seems remarkably archaic with no understanding at all of the importance of publicising of a missing child.
My interpretation of the part of the decision I have read so far is that it reveals a total misconception about what it was the McCanns were doing when they made themselves available for interview with the press.
Apparently the efforts they made to publicise their missing child negated their rights and was looked upon as them expressing an opinion.
Which tit for tat in the eyes of the judges meant … they were pushing their theory of abduction, therefore Goncalo Amaral was entitled to write a book to promote his.
The problem with courts and judges is that they "do" law. That is usually a difficult thing for the average punter to grasp. The punter always wants to muddy the waters with things he thinks are relevant but aren't in the context of the matter being tried.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 21, 2016, 11:16:40 PM
the mcann supporters havent been very graceful in defeat have they?
That's because they see it as a major victory for the McCanns/it was dodgy offside call by the ref/the judges don't understand Portuguese law.....................delete as applicable. My favourite is "the Portuguese Judges do not understand Portuguese law"; kin priceless that one.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on April 21, 2016, 11:20:37 PM
That's because they see it as a major victory for the McCanns/it was dodgy offside call by the ref/the judges don't understand Portuguese law.....................delete as applicable. My favourite is "the Portuguese Judges do not understand Portuguese law"; kin priceless that one.
I have yet to see one of them post a valid basis for an appeal that has not already been examined in the case so far. Name calling of people, organisations and countries doesn't count.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 21, 2016, 11:24:14 PM
That's because they see it as a major victory for the McCanns/it was dodgy offside call by the ref/the judges don't understand Portuguese law.....................delete as applicable. My favourite is "the Portuguese Judges do not understand Portuguese law"; kin priceless that one.
Clearly they don't....how many times has one court overruled a decision taken by another court in the McCann trial alone?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 21, 2016, 11:30:31 PM
What? You mean pidgin and its now non pc to say that it should be called Neo Melanesian ?{)(**
Read Stephen's post again. :)
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 21, 2016, 11:44:49 PM
In the aftermath of their libel case defeat, the parents of missing Madeleine McCann are reported to be threatening people found selling the damning book "Truth of the Lie" that has been once again freed from censorship.
The UK’s Daily Mirror claims Kate and Gerry McCann “have warned anyone caught selling ex-police chief Gonzalo (sic) Amaral’s book in the UK would face legal action”.
But the story fails to address the fact that, right now, there is no legal basis for this tactic.
Amaral’s thesis will be returning to bookstores in Portugal next week as both he and his publishers Guerra e Paz have won the civil action lodged against them.
It is possible the McCann’s lawyers will argue that the appeal they claim to be lodging with Portugal’s Supreme Court could cover threats of legal action - but this is also debatable, say legal experts.
“The book is not held to be defamatory in any jurisdiction in the world”, said one - pointing out at the same time that an appeal to the Supreme Court in Portugal is equivalent to an appeal to the House of Lords in Great Britain.
“These courts only listen to cases involving important points of law, of general public importance”, he told us. “They are not interested in facts, nor minor squabbles - nor whether the Court of Appeal has made a good or bad decision.
“They are only interested if they have to clarify something which the substantive law has not made entirely clear”.
In other words, an appeal by the McCann’s to continue their action against former PJ coordinator Gonçalo Amaral “may not even be entertained”, said the source.
Be that as it may, the fallout from Tuesday’s decision is reverberating through the world’s media channels, particularly as Amaral has hit back almost immediately with the news that his lawyers will now be suing for compensation.
The bill “could run into the hundreds of thousands of euros”, writes the Mirror, explaining that Amaral is said to be suing for “years of financial losses in which his good name has been called into question”.
Negotiating with his publishers today, the former detective confirmed to the Resident that “what the McCanns are doing is illegal. I am in talks with my publishers for a book in the English language, as there is as yet no publisher in the UK, the USA, Australia, New Zealand - not even Amazon - that is selling it.
"The McCanns will learn to respect the right to opinion and freedom of expression”, he added - stressing that “any version” of Truth of the Lie in English that can be found on the Internet is also illegal, as neither he nor Guerra e Paz publishers have given their authorisation to translations.
natasha.donn@algarveresident.com
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 21, 2016, 11:48:17 PM
Jeez you are kidding. I have been out to the theatre and logged in here for a laugh on my return and just waded through 10 pages of yesterdays rubbish you lot have cut and pasted into today while I have been out. Well that's what it looks like.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 21, 2016, 11:50:54 PM
Jeez you are kidding. I have been out to the theatre and logged in here for a laugh on my return and just waded through 10 pages of yesterdays rubbish you lot have cut and pasted into today while I have been out. Well that's what it looks like.
oops im sorry 8)><( i reposted that article because it explains portugese legal experts dont think the appeal will happen me bad @)(++(*
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 21, 2016, 11:51:33 PM
Jeez you are kidding. I have been out to the theatre and logged in here for a laugh on my return and just waded through 10 pages of yesterdays rubbish you lot have cut and pasted into today while I have been out. Well that's what it looks like.
See post #1013. (I have my helpful hat on)
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 22, 2016, 12:28:13 AM
The problem with courts and judges is that they "do" law. That is usually a difficult thing for the average punter to grasp. The punter always wants to muddy the waters with things he thinks are relevant but aren't in the context of the matter being tried.
I've not had time to read through it and certainly have not studied it in any great depth. I must admit that the couple of introductory paragraphs I have glanced at have stunned me somewhat.
As you say ... "the problem with courts and judges is that they "do law" and that was exactly what I was expecting ... loads of 'legalese'.
That was exactly what I did not see.
Instead I found myself reading puerile drivel which looked as if it had been bussed in from a parallel universe. For example ...
quote As was stated in the decision, from this Section, concerning the appended injunction, the 1st appellant [Gonçalo Amaral], wanted, through this book – because the institution to which he was bound did not allow him to reply to attacks against his pride and honour, as a professional of the criminal investigation police – to expose his vision of the facts, and therefore the publication of said book has to be considered a legitimate exercise of the right to an opinion. end quote
The circumstances surrounding Madeleine McCann's disappearance ~ the conduct of which in almost any other jurisdiction would probably have been subject to an inquiry to find out what had gone wrong with the conduct of it ~ have become all about Goncalo Amaral's "pride and honour" which was allegedly under attack giving him the right to publicise his opinion.
A sudden image of duelling banjos flashed across my mind as I read.
I am incredulous at the little I have read of the judgement. I really didn't expect three learned judges to subscribe to thought processes of that type ... I cringe for them.
Onwards and upwards though ... maybe it will get better the more I read of it, but my introduction has been less than promising. There must surely be points of law in there somewhere ~ I'll let you know if I find any.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 22, 2016, 12:52:11 AM
I have yet to see one of them post a valid basis for an appeal that has not already been examined in the case so far. Name calling of people, organisations and countries doesn't count.
you don't seem to have noticed that amarals appeal was simply the same points revisited.......so the appeal will no doubt be ...the same points revisited
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 22, 2016, 07:58:53 AM
I have yet to see one of them post a valid basis for an appeal that has not already been examined in the case so far. Name calling of people, organisations and countries doesn't count.
The basis of appeal stands out a mile.
The appeal-court judge (in the judgement just handed down) improperly applied Portuguese law by ignoring that, in writing his book, Amaral breached the rules of judicial secrecy so that the state of to s/he who is willing, no harm can come (the principle the appeal judgement rests on) doesn't (or shouldn't) apply.
This appeal-court judge screwed up.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 08:07:23 AM
Have amaral's assets been unfrozen
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 08:09:29 AM
The appeal-court judge (in the judgement just handed down) improperly applied Portuguese law by ignoring that, in writing his book, Amaral breached the rules of judicial secrecy so that the state of to s/he who is willing, no harm can come (the principle the appeal judgement rests on) doesn't (or shouldn't) apply.
This appeal-court judge screwed up.
No they didn't.
It was 3 judges remember.
The ones screwing up were the mccanns, REMEMBER.
The judges got it just right and the mccanns got the medicine they have long deserved.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 08:11:05 AM
I mean it hasn't been announced.....so as yet it appears they have not...in that case not really any sort of victory. You would have to ask why the assets have not been released and the answer is simple
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 22, 2016, 08:16:55 AM
I mean it hasn't been announced.....so as yet it appears they have not...in that case not really any sort of victory. You would have to ask why the assets have not been released and the answer is simple
the book is going back on sale next week so i assume they will unlock his money
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 08:19:03 AM
the book is going back on sale next week so i assume they will unlock his money
you assume ...thats a mistake...the book was on sale before the last verdict whilst his assets were frozen. There does not seem to have been any decision on the frozen assets...strange for those who think amaral has won
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 08:20:06 AM
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 22, 2016, 08:35:00 AM
The grounds of appeal is blindingly obvious: misapplication of Portuguese law.
Simple as that.
So long as the judge at the Supreme Court, who hears the appeal, is as honest as the judge at the court of first instance, the McCanns will absolutely fine.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 22, 2016, 08:43:40 AM
The grounds of appeal is blindingly obvious: misapplication of Portuguese law.
Simple as that.
So long as the judge at the Supreme Court, who hears the appeal, is as honest as the judge at the court of first instance, the McCanns will absolutely fine.
ferryman i have never met anyone online like you ever you are so stubbon whos to say the appeal will be approved?? the portugese judges know their own laws
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 08:44:24 AM
The grounds of appeal is blindingly obvious: misapplication of Portuguese law.
Simple as that.
So long as the judge at the Supreme Court, who hears the appeal, is as honest as the judge at the court of first instance, the McCanns will absolutely fine.
The law was applied correctly.
That has already been explained to you and in the judgement to the mccanns.
Both you and they need to get your heads of the sand.
The Portuguese Justice System owes no debt to the mccanns.
The mccanns now have to pay the legal fees of all parties involved, and that is just the first step.
Don'yt bother denying that either, it's in the judgement.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 08:45:29 AM
ferryman i have never met anyone online like you ever you are so stubbon whos to say the appeal will be approved?? the portugese judges know their own laws
ferryman thinks he knows more of the Portuguese law than the Portuguese.
He's been googling too much.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 08:47:10 AM
Almost a year to the day that former PJ coordinator Gonçalo Amaral learnt that the parents of missing Madeleine McCann had successfully sued him over his book “The Truth of the Lie”, three appeal court judges have ruled that there is essentially no case to answer.
Ferreira de Almeida, Catarina Manso and Alexandrina Branquinho have unanimously overturned the ruling of a lower court, freeing Amaral from a €500,000 bill for damages and another €106,000 in legal costs.
The McCanns, who were originally suing Amaral for €1.2 million, are “almost certain” to appeal. But the fact that the judges were united over their 16-page decision speaks volumes.
The question, they explained, centres on “appreciating an alleged illegality”.
Amaral’s thesis - that Madeleine “was not abducted, but had died accidentally” and that her parents, knowing this, had “covered up” the facts using “the theory of kidnap to elude” was nothing new.
It came from evidence contained in police files on the case, and it was the basis for the couple being made “arguidos” in the original investigation.
The judges thus accepted Amaral’s contention that he wrote “Truth of the Lie” “to expose his vision of the facts”, saying that it followed that “publication of the said book has to be considered a legitimate exercise of the right to an opinion”.
But even more, the panel stated that it was the McCanns who “multiplied themselves in interviews and interventions in national and international media” to the point that “one must conclude that it was they who voluntarily limited their rights to reservation and the intimacy of private life”.
In very stilted legal jargon, the bottom line is that the judges basically rated Amaral’s right to an opinion on the same level as anyone else’s.
Picking up the story, the Daily Mail managed to speak to McCann defence lawyer Isabel Duarte who said both she and her clients were “obviously disappointed”.
Duarte added however that she was not surprised, as “one of the judges ruled in favour of a previous appeal overturning a ban on the book”.
Indeed, McCann lawyers tried to remove this judge (Catarina Manso), altogether. A legal source has calculated that the shenanigans “cost some two months of time, which explains why this decision took so long”.
As Público explains, copies of the “Truth of the Lie” can now once again go on sale (which television reports suggest will happen next week), as can the DVD film documentary, the property of Valentim de Carvalho Filmes and television station TVI.
The panel’s decision, Duarte told the Mail, was “an appreciation of the law and not the facts”.
“We can appeal to the Supreme Court which we will do as soon as we have instructions from our clients,” she said. “We obviously hope the appeal will succeed. The McCanns never received any compensation money after the original decision, although the money was deposited at the court.”
This is something Amaral will very likely be addressing with his own lawyers, as he has had his assets frozen since the McCanns launched their civil action seven years ago.
Day-to-day life for the former cop has not been easy in the interim, but he has been buoyed by support - much of it coming from the UK - which last year saw over £50,000 raised towards his legal costs via an appeal launched by a budding British criminology student.
Amaral’s stance throughout the ordeal has been to insist on his right to freedom of expression - though he has intimated that ‘when all this is over’, he may well be filing civil charges of his own.
Speaking to Nova Gente magazine last year, he said: “Each thing in its own time.”
It won’t only be the McCanns he plans to sue, “but their group of friends and other people and entities”, he said, stressing “there is an illicit action that was indeed performed, the neglect in guarding their children which caused direct damages to many people, not only myself”.
Members of the Ocean Club staff were fired, he said, “many of them unjustly, passing from mere employees and heads of their families to suspects in a criminal investigation when they had nothing to do with the matter”.
Coincidentally, Tuesday’s ‘news of the appeal result in Portugal’ came as papers in UK were highlighting remarks made by “the detective in charge of the search for Madeleine”, Detective Chief Superintendent Mick Duthie - a new name in the British-led inquiry - who said police “still believe Madeleine could be found alive”.
Glossing over the fact that British press has given the long-running probe by the Metropolitan Police until October before funding is pulled altogether (click here), Duthie told reporters that Operation Grange (so far costing British taxpayers in excess of £12 million) could be extended by additional funding, as there is “always a possibility that we will find Madeleine”.
Nevertheless, this week is one for the Amaral camp.
The former detective said Tuesday’s news was “a tremendous and important victory for the right to opinion, freedom of expression and democracy”.
He also said he was “fully aware” that the victory was only possible thanks to the support he has received, “from Portuguese citizens and other nationalities but principally from British subjects, including British police colleagues” - all of whom he thanks “from the bottom of my heart”.
“The victory belongs to those who believe in truth, honesty and the realisation of justice,” he concluded.
But, with social media buzzing and articles throughout the world’s press, there is no getting away from the fact that Tuesday’s news came just weeks before the ninth anniversary of three-year-old Madeleine’s baffling disappearance.
Despite all the millions spent, all the agony of lawsuits and strife, all the pain of all those involved, no one seems any closer to the hidden nugget that will finally lift the lid of this extraordinary mystery.
By NATASHA DONN natasha.donn@algarveresident.com
UPDATE WEDNESDAY: Expresso has revealed that Amaral's legal team does indeed intend to press ahead with a counter-suit against the McCanns.
“We are going to advance with a compensation claim against the McCanns", lawyer Miguel Cruz Rodrigues has told the paper. “My client has suffered years of prejudice and losses.”
Amaral will be seeking "damages for what have been years of financial losses" in which his "good name has been called into question,” said the lawyer.
- See more at: http://portugalresident.com/appeal-court-judges-reject-mccanns-%E2%80%98libel-win%E2%80%99#sthash.HAHHAXF7.V6u8JPwg.dpuf
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 09:06:14 AM
Duarte of course needs to be reminded there are very few facts in this case, as regards what happened to Madeleine.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 22, 2016, 09:08:14 AM
The appeal-court judge (in the judgement just handed down) improperly applied Portuguese law by ignoring that, in writing his book, Amaral breached the rules of judicial secrecy so that the state of to s/he who is willing, no harm can come (the principle the appeal judgement rests on) doesn't (or shouldn't) apply.
This appeal-court judge screwed up.
The Appeal Court judges are higher in the system that the judge of the lower court. There were three of them and their decision was unanimous. Suggesting that they 'screwed up' is ridiculous.
The McCanns appealed to the Supreme Court in the matter of the injunction banning Amaral's book. The Supreme Court didn't want to know. My opinion is that the same will apply this time also, unless their lawyers can come up with something spectacular;
Isabel Duarte said that she had lodged an appeal on November 5 against the Court of Appeal's ruling at the Supreme Court of Justice.
If the McCanns lost that appeal, she said, they would take the case to the international courts.
McCanns take Amaral book fight to the Supreme Court Algarve Resident By CHRIS GRAEME updated: 11-Nov-2010 18:58:56
The Supreme Court judges refused the request for an "exceptional review" of the Appeals Court's decision, which overturned the injunction that had been filed by Kate and Gerry McCann.
Sol Margarida Davim 18 March 2011
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id347.html
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 22, 2016, 09:28:42 AM
he doesnt have to justify it to mcann supporters either its his money
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 09:31:06 AM
he doesnt have to justify it to mcann supporters either its his money
The denial of what has happened by certain people is part of the continued mantra they type day by day, in a vain attempt to convince others that the mccanns haven't lost their case.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 22, 2016, 09:40:46 AM
The denial of what has happened by certain people is part of the continued mantra they type day by day, in a vain attempt to convince others that the mccanns haven't lost their case.
What does 'denial' have to do with objective analysis of the facts?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 09:41:12 AM
As the case was overturned, his assets would be automatically released.
his assets were not returned when the book ban was previously overturned,...remember...so we have not heard here that the assets have been returned...so no victory yet...your denial is expected
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 09:44:55 AM
What does 'denial' have to do with objective analysis of the facts?
because you are seeing what you want too see you wont face the truth that the mcanns lost the right to control GA selling his book he is going to be from as early as next week and a trial in the supreme court wont stop that
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 09:48:10 AM
his assets were not returned when the book ban was previously overturned,...remember...so we have not heard here that the assets have been returned...so no victory yet...your denial is expected
The mccanns have lost the civil case.
Meanwhile his assets will be increasing next week, with the re-release of the book and video.
You should be rejoicing that more people can know hisa side of the story and not the propaganda prevalent in the UK media for much of the last 7 years.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 22, 2016, 09:50:50 AM
Meanwhile his assets will be increasing next week, with the re-release of the book and video.
You should be rejoicing that more people can know hisa side of the story and not the propaganda prevalent in the UK media for much of the last 7 years.
after all no one likes censorship do they??
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 22, 2016, 09:51:18 AM
Meanwhile his assets will be increasing next week, with the re-release of the book and video.
You should be rejoicing that more people can know hisa side of the story and not the propaganda prevalent in the UK media for much of the last 7 years.
Why should anyone 'rejoice' that Amaral's clear and demonstrable lies can once more be legally read, to hinder the search for a missing little girl?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2016, 09:52:49 AM
Would anyone care to express an opinion on why The McCanns won the judgement at the first trial? The one that has just been overturned.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 09:53:41 AM
If certain people wrote certain things about you, I bet you'd suddenly be all for censorship, and I would be on your side, in standing up against abuse directed at you (or in favour of censorship)
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 09:57:00 AM
I'm afraid you have completely misunderstood, just as people did when giving their opinions on the appeal. Montclair seems to have had the most accurate view on that.
Taken from; Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
OxfordBloo; I cannot see what his grounds for appeal could possibly be.
Montclair; I have read the judge's decision, thank you very much. Her decision is her decision and there is no reason why it cannot be overturned. Her arguments are more or less the same as the ones used by the judge in February 2010 and that ruling was overturned by the Tribunal de Relação.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 22, 2016, 10:06:54 AM
...
Must have missed the posts.
If I'd spotted them, I certainly would have.
The moderators are pretty hot on this board, and would doubtless have removed abusive posts (rightly so)
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 22, 2016, 10:08:46 AM
I'm afraid you have completely misunderstood, just as people did when giving their opinions on the appeal. Montclair seems to have had the most accurate view on that.
Taken from; Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
OxfordBloo; I cannot see what his grounds for appeal could possibly be.
Montclair; I have read the judge's decision, thank you very much. Her decision is her decision and there is no reason why it cannot be overturned. Her arguments are more or less the same as the ones used by the judge in February 2010 and that ruling was overturned by the Tribunal de Relação.
Ignoring that Amaral breached judicial secrecy was an unpardonable blunder (by the appeal-court judges).
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 22, 2016, 10:12:56 AM
One thing should be clear to all - SY were searching for a body with British police dogs like in 2007 to nail the evil perps.
so they clearly were unsure that maddie was alive then and clearly didnt think so??
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 22, 2016, 10:18:34 AM
Amaral seeking damages 'his good name has been called into question' he was an 'arguido' at the time he was co-ordinator. I think his 'good name' had already been called into question.
Anyway, the same goes for him doesn't it, it was no one else's fault but his own that he messed up the case and got thrown off it.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 22, 2016, 10:20:34 AM
so they clearly were unsure that maddie was alive then and clearly didnt think so??
Actions speak louder than words.
"Police said they had also investigated more than 60 persons of interest. A total of 650 sex offenders have also been considered as well as reports of 8,685 potential sightings of Madeleine around the world.
Operation Grange, which was launched in 2011, will continue but will have the number of full time officers working on the case reduced from 29 to just four. Detectives have taken 1,338 statements and collected 1,027 exhibits, but a spokesman for the Metropolitan Police said: “While there remain lines of inquiry to follow, the vast majority of the work by Operation Grange has been completed.”
I'm afraid you have completely misunderstood, just as people did when giving their opinions on the appeal. Montclair seems to have had the most accurate view on that.
Taken from; Re: Gonçalo Amaral confirms he will appeal the damages decision to higher Court.
OxfordBloo; I cannot see what his grounds for appeal could possibly be.
Montclair; I have read the judge's decision, thank you very much. Her decision is her decision and there is no reason why it cannot be overturned. Her arguments are more or less the same as the ones used by the judge in February 2010 and that ruling was overturned by the Tribunal de Relação.
I'd forgotten about that short-lived 'expert' on Portuguese law. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 10:23:40 AM
Amaral seeking damages 'his good name has been called into question' he was an 'arguido' at the time he was co-ordinator. I think his 'good name' had already been called into question.
Anyway, the same goes for him doesn't it, it was no one else's fault but his own that he messed up the case and got thrown off it.
He was the case coordinator.
He did not mess up the case.
He was removed from the case after he complained of interference.
Try sticking to the facts.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 22, 2016, 10:23:55 AM
"Police said they had also investigated more than 60 persons of interest. A total of 650 sex offenders have also been considered as well as reports of 8,685 potential sightings of Madeleine around the world.
Operation Grange, which was launched in 2011, will continue but will have the number of full time officers working on the case reduced from 29 to just four. Detectives have taken 1,338 statements and collected 1,027 exhibits, but a spokesman for the Metropolitan Police said: “While there remain lines of inquiry to follow, the vast majority of the work by Operation Grange has been completed.”
Obviously they are going to reduce the officers working on the case if the bulk of the investigation has been completed, such as going through the files and following up statements etc.
They are now down to a dedicated four who are following their main lines of investigation.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 10:24:24 AM
Obviously they are going to reduce the officers working on the case if the bulk of the investigation has been completed, such as going through the files and following up statements etc.
They are now down to a dedicated four who are following their main lines of investigation.
Yeah, yeah, if you say so.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 10:26:07 AM
He was removed from the case after he complained of interference.
Try sticking to the facts.
He didn't have 5a secured as a crime scene, he didn't immediately get road blocks, he didn't understand the forensic results and then didn't like it when people told him to investigate other lines, he got very annoyed about that, as he couldn't have anyone telling him he could be wrong.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 10:28:04 AM
He didn't have 5a secured as a crime scene, he didn't immediately get road blocks, he didn't understand the forensic results and then didn't like it when people told him to investigate other lines, he got very annoyed about that, as he couldn't have anyone telling him he could be wrong.
So 1 man has all that power, amazing.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 22, 2016, 10:29:20 AM
He didn't have 5a secured as a crime scene, he didn't immediately get road blocks, he didn't understand the forensic results and then didn't like it when people told him to investigate other lines, he got very annoyed about that, as he couldn't have anyone telling him he could be wrong.
That crime scene was tampered with before the the GNR arrived nevermind the PJ. And who took ages to call the police?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 22, 2016, 10:30:53 AM
He was always de-bunking off, one way or the other. 8)--))
He joined another forum after he stamped out of here, but he lasted no time at all on there. I did wonder when the appeal verdict came out if he was going to return and give us his expert opinions once again.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 22, 2016, 10:32:49 AM
That crime scene was tampered with before the the GNR arrived nevermind the PJ. And who took ages to call the police?
They searched 5a for Madeleine, what would you do? Amaral should have sealed off 5a and not let it be rented out to holiday makers, it was a crime scene for gods sake.
The McCann's asked for the police to be called straight away, who knows why they weren't, probably because they had their own way of dealing with missing children and the person decided to let his boss decide what to do.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 22, 2016, 10:36:40 AM
You really are clueless aren't you. SY have searched in Portugal did you miss it?
Kate McCann actually said she didn't think Madeleine was a million miles away from Portugal, that IMO means she could be near Portugal not actually in it.
Do you think that the police should be tearing Portugal apart Stephen?
Past tense Lace.
The have found nothing.
You like SY are COMPLETELY CLUELESS.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 22, 2016, 10:37:37 AM
You really are clueless aren't you. SY have searched in Portugal did you miss it?
Kate McCann actually said she didn't think Madeleine was a million miles away from Portugal, that IMO means she could be near Portugal not actually in it.
Do you think that the police should be tearing Portugal apart Stephen?
A million miles would take here out of this world, so she could have been abducted by aliens, but not as far away as Alpha Centuri ?{)(**
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 22, 2016, 10:39:07 AM
it would have helped too if the mcanns had looked after their kids
If the McCann's had left every door open with an arrow pointing to Madeleine's bedroom, they would STILL be entitled to a full investigation into the disappearance. Just because they left their children, though they were cleared of neglect remember by the Portuguese, why should they expect nothing less of a thorough investigation and search for their child. Why should Madeleine not be given the same chances that any other missing child would have. That's like saying 'oh your parents left you alone, they don't deserve to have anyone searching for you so tough luck'.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 22, 2016, 10:42:05 AM
SY are not clueless,they know what happened that night.
Just to clarify, I have been told that Gonçalo Amaral's assets will only made available once the appeal has run its course and been rejected of course.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 22, 2016, 10:43:45 AM
They found nothing when they searched no, no dead body.
You really think you know better than experienced detectives don't you, as SY have said they are not going to give a running commentary to the public and rightly so.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 22, 2016, 10:44:23 AM
They searched 5a for Madeleine, what would you do? Amaral should have sealed off 5a and not let it be rented out to holiday makers, it was a crime scene for gods sake.
The McCann's asked for the police to be called straight away, who knows why they weren't, probably because they had their own way of dealing with missing children and the person decided to let his boss decide what to do.
Back up your statement that the McCanns asked for the police to be called straight away?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 22, 2016, 10:44:49 AM
The judges have clearly explained why the previous one was wrong.
just as the same judge explained how the banning of the book was wrong...a decision that was overturned...you cannot accept reality...it isn't over yet.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 22, 2016, 10:47:11 AM
Would anyone care to express an opinion on why The McCanns won the judgement at the first trial? The one that has just been overturned.
The judge based her judgement on just two points. That Amaral used privileged information in his book and that he ignored the presumption of innocence.
As I understand it the Appeal Court said there was no requirement for a retired police officer to observe judicial secrecy when the information had been released to the public and discussed in the media. Presumption of innocence applies only to suspects, I think.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 10:49:35 AM
If the McCann's had left every door open with an arrow pointing to Madeleine's bedroom, they would STILL be entitled to a full investigation into the disappearance. Just because they left their children, though they were cleared of neglect remember by the Portuguese, why should they expect nothing less of a thorough investigation and search for their child. Why should Madeleine not be given the same chances that any other missing child would have. That's like saying 'oh your parents left you alone, they don't deserve to have anyone searching for you so tough luck'.
There was a full investigation.
No trace of MADELEINE.
No evidence of abduction.
DO KEEP UP.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 22, 2016, 10:49:46 AM
Staggering isn't the word I would apply in his case.
Deluded is closer.
Tsk tsk Stevo one is not supposed to use the "d" word. I can understand the supporters getting it wrong but you? delude being a verb requiring a subject and an object and all that 8(0(*
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 10:51:24 AM
just as the same judge explained how the banning of the book was wrong...a decision that was overturned...you cannot accept reality...it isn't over yet.
You assume the case will go to the Supreme Court and there is no guarantee of that.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 22, 2016, 10:51:54 AM
just as the same judge explained how the banning of the book was wrong...a decision that was overturned...you cannot accept reality...it isn't over yet.
Indeed not. I believe there are 28 days left for them to lodge an appeal. Whether or not that appeal will actually take place will be announced in due course, so until then, we can only wait with interest.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 10:52:39 AM
SY are not clueless,they know what happened that night.
Just to clarify, I have been told that Gonçalo Amaral's assets will only made available once the appeal has run its course and been rejected of course.
So what do you believe SY think happened that night, other than Madeleine disappearing ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2016, 10:53:01 AM
The judge based her judgement on just two points. That Amaral used privileged information in his book and that he ignored the presumption of innocence.
As I understand it the Appeal Court said there was no requirement for a retired police officer to observe judicial secrecy when the information had been released to the public and discussed in the media. Presumption of innocence applies only to suspects, I think.
Thank you, G-Unit.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 22, 2016, 10:53:28 AM
Tsk tsk Stevo one is not supposed to use the "d" word. I can understand the supporters getting it wrong but you? delude being a verb requiring a subject and an object and all that 8(0(*
Naughty me.
I can think of alternative 'd' words.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 22, 2016, 10:54:47 AM
If the McCann's had left every door open with an arrow pointing to Madeleine's bedroom, they would STILL be entitled to a full investigation into the disappearance. Just because they left their children, though they were cleared of neglect remember by the Portuguese, why should they expect nothing less of a thorough investigation and search for their child. Why should Madeleine not be given the same chances that any other missing child would have. That's like saying 'oh your parents left you alone, they don't deserve to have anyone searching for you so tough luck'.
If the McCanns had done that I'm sure that they would have been considered accomplices!
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on April 22, 2016, 11:00:50 AM
They refused as Gerry said the Police had already been called [so he thought]
You said they asked. Read Matt and Fiona's statements. Fiona asked him to go and call them. Gerry should have been straight on the phone to police because within a few hours he's telling family it was a paedo gang. They said they knew she had been abducted straight away. Abduction by paedos were blamed from the start. And the police were called at 10:41. It doesn't add up!
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 11:05:04 AM
Would anyone care to express an opinion on why The McCanns won the judgement at the first trial? The one that has just been overturned.
The judge found in favour on one point. 60% of the claim was kicked out first time around hence the judge awarded 60% of court costs against the McCanns. The judge's contention was that Sr Amaral had profited from privileged information and that even when retired as a civil servant it was his duty to uphold the McCann's right to be considered innocent until proven guilty. As a result of this the amount he profited by was removed from him and given to the McCanns. Somewhere floating about on here there is the translation of the full original judgement. The present judgement seems to be based on Sr Amaral's right to freedom of speech overriding some arcane Portuguese civil service rule. Don't forget there has already been an attempt to "do him" for breaching secrecy and fell on it's duff.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 11:06:51 AM
The judge found in favour on one point. 60% of the claim was kicked out first time around hence the judge awarded 60% of court costs against the McCanns. The judge's contention was that Sr Amaral had profited from privileged information and that even when retired as a civil servant it was his duty to uphold the McCann's right to be considered innocent until proven guilty. As a result of this the amount he profited by was removed from him and given to the McCanns. Somewhere floating about on here there is he translation of the full original judgement. The present judgement seems to be based on Sr Amaral's right to freedom of speech overriding some arcane Portuguese cicil service rule. Don't forget there has already been an attempt to "do him" for breaching secrecy and fell on it's duff.
Yet the information was already in the public domain.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 11:15:53 AM
Amaral seeking damages 'his good name has been called into question' he was an 'arguido' at the time he was co-ordinator. I think his 'good name' had already been called into question.
Anyway, the same goes for him doesn't it, it was no one else's fault but his own that he messed up the case and got thrown off it.
This true. It is all reminiscent of the famous libel case between Peregrine Worsthorne and Andrew Neil. Good for a laugh for the spectators but an excruciating embarrassment for the protagonists.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 11:18:02 AM
Well her success rate to date is hardly outstanding.
Have you looked up reference sources on this ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 11:19:15 AM
Yet the information was already in the public domain.
Indeed and that seems to be the sticking point with some. The issue is whether or not the information was in the public domain before Sr Amaral's book was published not how long it took to write the book and set up printing presses. The key dates will be: When was the archiving report issue into the public domain. When was Sr Amaral's book on sale. QED
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 22, 2016, 11:32:44 AM
Indeed and that seems to be the sticking point with some. The issue is whether or not the information was in the public domain before Sr Amaral's book was published not how long it took to write the book and set up printing presses. The key dates will be: When was the archiving report issue into the public domain. When was Sr Amaral's book on sale. QED
Not a sticking-point at all.
The book was published after the files were released.
Breach of judicial secrecy (in preparing the book for publication) occurred before publication (and release to the general public) of the book.
The judge at the court of first-instance understood that, and that's why she handed down the judgement she did.
The appeal-court judges ignored that point.
Let us hope the court of further appeal (the Supreme Court) address and remedy that anomaly.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on April 22, 2016, 11:43:33 AM
It is simply staggering how many things you get wrong.
The only ones blowing a gasket are the mccanns and supporters like you.
tell me what I have got wrong...it will be a very short post..I predicted last May Amaral may well win this round but taht appeals would drag on...correct
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 11:51:37 AM
tell me what I have got wrong...it will be a very short post..I predicted last May Amaral may well win this round but taht appeals would drag on...correct
You said, maybe he would, or maybe he wouldn't.
Basically you said b....r all.
However, your hatred of Amaral IMO , is just like the mccanns.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 22, 2016, 11:59:49 AM
Montclaire is totally wrong and has nothing to support her statement
Not quite totally wrong. (Elements of) the PJ (but emphatically never the English contingent of the joint investigation) thought (back in September 2007) that the McCanns were guilty.
One of those elements was Almeida who, much later, around the time that he testified in the libel trial, recanted of that view.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 12:13:31 PM
The book was published after the files were released.
Breach of judicial secrecy (in preparing the book for publication) occurred before publication (and release to the general public) of the book.
The judge at the court of first-instance understood that, and that's why she handed down the judgement she did.
The appeal-court judges ignored that point.
Let us hope the court of further appeal (the Supreme Court) address and remedy that anomaly.
Judicial secrecy is not the issue being tried. The original judge made it quite clear in her judgment why she was ruling as she did and it had b***r all to do with judicial secrecy.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 12:20:40 PM
Judicial secrecy is not the issue being tried. The original judge made it quite clear in her judgment why she was ruling as she did and it had b***r all to do with judicial secrecy.
Having established that judicial secrecy had been breached, she tested the truth (or untruth) of the claims of Amaral's book with what is written in the files.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 12:24:04 PM
Having established that judicial secrecy had been breached, she tested the truth (or untruth) of the claims of Amaral's book with what is written in the files.
Well, the 3 judges have said different.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 22, 2016, 12:36:14 PM
Having established that judicial secrecy had been breached, she tested the truth (or untruth) of the claims of Amaral's book with what is written in the files.
The judge repeated pretty much what was said in the appeal judgement on the injunction;
the book that is at stake here, reproducing the contents of some of the case files, which also had an effect on the above mentioned final dispatch that was signed by two Public Ministry Magistrates.
In the book, we do not verify any reference to any facts that are not in that dispatch. http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2010/10/lisbon-appeals-court-ruling.html
From the libel' trial;
28. (Items 27 & 28) It is proved that the facts in the book and in the documentary, concerning the investigation, are mostly facts that took place in the investigation and are documented as such.
The Judge does note that some of the facts in the book are not complete, and some facts that are in the book are not in the case files, including Jane Tanner's alleged "informal" recognition of Robert Murat.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 22, 2016, 12:57:54 PM
The judge repeated pretty much what was said in the appeal judgement on the injunction;
the book that is at stake here, reproducing the contents of some of the case files, which also had an effect on the above mentioned final dispatch that was signed by two Public Ministry Magistrates.
In the book, we do not verify any reference to any facts that are not in that dispatch. http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2010/10/lisbon-appeals-court-ruling.html
From the libel' trial;
28. (Items 27 & 28) It is proved that the facts in the book and in the documentary, concerning the investigation, are mostly facts that took place in the investigation and are documented as such.
The Judge does note that some of the facts in the book are not complete, and some facts that are in the book are not in the case files, including Jane Tanner's alleged "informal" recognition of Robert Murat.
Joana Morais?
Anne Guides?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ChloeR on April 22, 2016, 01:03:11 PM
I have read 'Madeleine' and I have to say I was surprised how little of the book is actually about the poor girl.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 22, 2016, 01:07:40 PM
Are you surprised? She went missing very early on.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ChloeR on April 22, 2016, 01:09:18 PM
I bought the book expecting to find out more about Madeleine as a child though, as I expect a lot of people did. To find a few chapters about her and the rest about Kate and Gerry was a bit of a disappointment.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 22, 2016, 01:11:02 PM
I bought the book expecting to find out more about Madeleine as a child though, as I expect a lot of people did. To find a few chapters about her and the rest about Kate and Gerry was a bit of a disappointment.
The book might have been better titled as 'Life after Madeleine'
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 22, 2016, 01:26:24 PM
I'm unclear what the thoughts of a vile internet troll tell us about Amaral's appeal?
The troll don't matter old stick. Three appeal court judges upheld Sr Amaral's appeal and awarded rather a lot of costs against the McCanns That's all you need know for now.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 01:26:38 PM
I bought the book expecting to find out more about Madeleine as a child though, as I expect a lot of people did. To find a few chapters about her and the rest about Kate and Gerry was a bit of a disappointment.
I get the impression you are basically a sceptic so will tend to find fault with most of the McCanns actions
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 01:27:41 PM
The troll don't matter old stick. Three appeal court judges upheld Sr Amaral's appeal and awarded rather a lot of costs against the McCanns That's all you need know for now.
what we don't know is if that is the final judgement..may well not be
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 22, 2016, 01:28:45 PM
The troll don't matter old stick. Three appeal court judges upheld Sr Amaral's appeal and awarded rather a lot of costs against the McCanns That's all you need know for now.
Not quite.
I also need to know the basis of the appeal ...
I don't.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ChloeR on April 22, 2016, 01:38:21 PM
I get the impression you are basically a sceptic so will tend to find fault with most of the McCanns actions
I am a sceptic of the 'abduction theory' yes. I do not seek to find fault with the parents though, though it appears on here that is an impossible position to hold. Seems you either have to be firmly in one 'camp' or another with no grey areas. Sorry I don't fit into that.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 01:44:19 PM
Well, here's a little something for a Friday afternoon.
https://twitter.com/RussPLFC
I have heard rumours of this before.
2 nd Tweet down.
Read if you wish.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 22, 2016, 01:46:21 PM
I am a sceptic of the 'abduction theory' yes. I do not seek to find fault with the parents though, though it appears on here that is an impossible position to hold. Seems you either have to be firmly in one 'camp' or another with no grey areas. Sorry I don't fit into that.
Welcome to the forum, Chloe.
There are one or two posters who are entirely capable of presenting what could be considered an unbiased view being neither firmly in one camp or t'other.
It would be excellent were you to be in the same mould ... however, as long as you respect forum rules and other posters you will be fine as all points of view are acceptable here.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 22, 2016, 01:51:53 PM
he cant even say my name right can our dave @)(++(*
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 22, 2016, 01:52:40 PM
If you had read elsewhere, you would know of another ex-copper who donated to the fund, along with his friends still in the force.
police are family stephen the world over they are brothers/sisters they dont like their fellow police officers getting liabelled
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 22, 2016, 01:58:23 PM
If we go (way) back, why did one of Amaral's (sacked) lawyers plead that the case be held in camera to protect Madeleine lest Madeleine be alive if there was never (at that stage) any question that Amaral had not breached judicial secrecy in writing his book?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 22, 2016, 02:00:36 PM
If we go (way) back, why did one of Amaral's (sacked) lawyers plead that the case be held in camera to protect Madeleine lest Madeleine be alive if there was never (at that stage) any question that Amaral had not breached judicial secrecy in writing his book?
Oh I think he was 'playing the game' in the full knowledge that the McCanns would object.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 22, 2016, 02:01:07 PM
I am a sceptic of the 'abduction theory' yes. I do not seek to find fault with the parents though, though it appears on here that is an impossible position to hold. Seems you either have to be firmly in one 'camp' or another with no grey areas. Sorry I don't fit into that.
According to the supporters anyone who disagrees with any part of the McCann's story is part of an organised 'gang' of sceptics whose mission in life is to increase the suffering of the innocent parents of Madeleine McCann and to stop anyone looking for her.
As they often do, they've got it wrong. The non-supporters on here hold a variety of opinions about the case, they are not an organised group and do not wish to increase anyone's suffering or to stop anyone looking for or finding Madeleine.
I advise that you stand your ground and refuse to be pigeon-holed.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 22, 2016, 02:01:38 PM
Oh I think he was 'playing the game' in the full knowledge that the McCanns would object.
So everyone missed 'the elephant in the room' (that Amaral did not breach judicial secrecy and was at liberty to issue forth baseless accusations and lies with impunity) until the McCanns launched their appeal?
Interesting.
If true ....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 22, 2016, 02:08:00 PM
According to the supporters anyone who disagrees with any part of the McCann's story is part of an organised 'gang' of sceptics whose mission in life is to increase the suffering of the innocent parents of Madeleine McCann and to stop anyone looking for her.
As they often do, they've got it wrong. The non-supporters on here hold a variety of opinions about the case, they are not an organised group and do not wish to increase anyone's suffering or to stop anyone looking for or finding Madeleine.
I advise that you stand your ground and refuse to be pigeon-holed.
That is a rather sweeping statement G requires substantiation in the form of a cite or cites, thank you
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 22, 2016, 02:10:18 PM
According to the supporters anyone who disagrees with any part of the McCann's story is part of an organised 'gang' of sceptics whose mission in life is to increase the suffering of the innocent parents of Madeleine McCann and to stop anyone looking for her.
As they often do, they've got it wrong. The non-supporters on here hold a variety of opinions about the case, they are not an organised group and do not wish to increase anyone's suffering or to stop anyone looking for or finding Madeleine.
I advise that you stand your ground and refuse to be pigeon-holed.
could you provide some sort of cite for your claim that supporters claim there is an organised gang of sceptics...again you show you are not in touch with reality
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 22, 2016, 02:24:26 PM
Volunteer translators ferryman. Like the ones who translated the (selected) parts of the official files you're so fond of quoting. Without these people you would have nothing to quote from.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 02:28:46 PM
According to the supporters anyone who disagrees with any part of the McCann's story is part of an organised 'gang' of sceptics whose mission in life is to increase the suffering of the innocent parents of Madeleine McCann and to stop anyone looking for her.
As they often do, they've got it wrong. The non-supporters on here hold a variety of opinions about the case, they are not an organised group and do not wish to increase anyone's suffering or to stop anyone looking for or finding Madeleine.
I advise that you stand your ground and refuse to be pigeon-holed.
anyone who doesn't believe the McCanns version of events is by definition a McCann sceptic and belongs in the sceptic pigeonhole...just as supporters belong in the supporters pigeonhole
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 22, 2016, 02:29:59 PM
Gonçalo Amaral had been ordered to compensate Kate and Gerry McCann after his book alleged they were involved in their daughter’s disappearance Kate and Gerry McCann Kate and Gerry McCann took the decision in their stride, according to Lisbon lawyer Isabel Duarte. Photograph: Mario Cruz/EPA Staff and agencies Wednesday 20 April 2016 00.27 BST Last modified on Wednesday 20 April 2016 09.40 BST Share on Pinterest Share on LinkedIn Share on Google+ Shares 243 Save for later An appeals court in Portugal has overturned the libel conviction of a former Portuguese detective who published a book alleging the parents of Madeleine McCann were involved in their daughter’s disappearance, the parents’ lawyer said.
Lisbon lawyer Isabel Duarte told Associated Press she was notified of the court’s decision to uphold Gonçalo Amaral’s appeal against the order to pay Kate and Gerry McCann €500,000 (£394,000) in compensation. That ruling was handed down by a lower court in Lisbon a year ago, prompting Amaral to appeal.
Duarte said she intended to fight the decision at the supreme court, though she had not yet assembled her legal arguments.
Amaral was part of the police investigation into Madeleine’s disappearance from a holiday apartment in Portugal’s Algarve region in May 2007, days before her fourth birthday. In 2008 he published his book about the case called The Truth of the Lie.
Gonçalo Amaral poses with his book Facebook Twitter Pinterest Gonçalo Amaral poses with his book, whose title translates as The Truth of the Lies, during its 2008 launch in Lisbon. Photograph: Joao Henriques/AP The McCanns sought €1.2m in damages from Amaral, saying they were “totally destroyed” and “depressed” by Amaral’s allegations, and felt “ashamed” that they might appear to have been to blame for their daughter’s disappearance.
Amaral had argued in his defence that his claims stemmed from the police investigation and that Portuguese media had already reported the possibility that the parents might have played a role in Madeleine’s disappearance.
The appeals court “decided that [Amaral] had the right to do what he did,” said Duarte. “It said he can write what he wants. It absolved him, said he didn’t have to pay anything.”
The lawyer said the McCanns took the reversal in their stride after a long time battling in Portuguese courts. “They’re used to it,” Duarte said.
Portuguese police closed the case in 2008 because authorities had detected no crime, but British police are still looking into it.
Detective chief superintendent Mick Duthie told London’s Evening Standard on Monday that Scotland Yard’s probe was ongoing and officers still hoped to find her alive.
In April the Home Office granted the investigation, called Operation Grange, £95,000 to cover another six months of the inquiry. This came after the number of officers working on the operation was scaled down from 29 to four in October 2015.
Duthie, who is head of Scotland Yard’s homicide and major crime command, said: “There is ongoing work. There is always a possibility that we will find Madeleine and we hope that we will find her alive.
“That’s what we want and that’s what the family and the public want and that is why the Home Office continue to fund it. There is work that needs to be done still.”
I have underlined the key part from the report.
It ignores that Amaral breached judicial secrecy in writing his book (but not in releasing it for sale to the general public).
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 02:31:48 PM
Indeed and that seems to be the sticking point with some. The issue is whether or not the information was in the public domain before Sr Amaral's book was published not how long it took to write the book and set up printing presses. The key dates will be: When was the archiving report issue into the public domain. When was Sr Amaral's book on sale. QED
I'm not sure about this one. The book was written (introduction) as if the investigation was ongoing. Amaral writes about not wishing to interfere with an ongoing investigation.
I accept the book came out very shortly after the investigation closed, so I suspect a fair bit of positioning was in play.
I cannot see how references to the final archiving report or the drawings based on the forensic investigation in 5A on 4 May could possibly be in print in the time space between archival and book launch.
But this does not appear to be a point of relevance WRT the latest judgement.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 02:33:45 PM
I'm not sure about this one. The book was written (introduction) as if the investigation was ongoing. Amaral writes about not wishing to interfere with an ongoing investigation.
I accept the book came out very shortly after the investigation closed, so I suspect a fair bit of positioning was in play.
I cannot see how references to the final archiving report or the drawings based on the forensic investigation in 5A on 4 May could possibly be in print in the time space between archival and book launch.
But this does not appear to be a point of relevance WRT the latest judgement.
Exactly
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 22, 2016, 02:39:57 PM
It ignores that Amaral breached judicial secrecy in writing his book (but not in releasing it for sale to the general public).
What I see is that you have underlined a quote by Isabel Duarte and are trying to pass it off as part of the judgment. Why don't you provide us with a link to the translation of the 16 page judgment upon which you say you are relying.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 22, 2016, 02:55:44 PM
What I see is that you have underlined a quote by Isabel Duarte and are trying to pass it off as part of the judgment. Why don't you provide us with a link to the translation of the 16 page judgment upon which you say you are relying.
I have provided a link to the basis of the judgement, which is that Amaral can say anything he wants (to s/he who is willing, no harm can come).
That principle would, indeed, apply (under Portuguese law) if Amaral had not breached secrecy in assembling material for, and writing, his book -- before its release to the general public.
In writing his book (and preparing it for publication) Amaral breached judicial secrecy.
Therefore the principle does not apply.
Therefore Amaral should be held accountable for his lies.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 22, 2016, 02:57:39 PM
I'm not sure about this one. The book was written (introduction) as if the investigation was ongoing. Amaral writes about not wishing to interfere with an ongoing investigation.
I accept the book came out very shortly after the investigation closed, so I suspect a fair bit of positioning was in play.
I cannot see how references to the final archiving report or the drawings based on the forensic investigation in 5A on 4 May could possibly be in print in the time space between archival and book launch.
But this does not appear to be a point of relevance WRT the latest judgement.
It would only be a point of relevance, imo, were he being tried for a breach of judicial secrecy, which he is not, and then it would be flaky. The point at issue is was the information in the public domain other than by means of Sr Amarals book. At the time the writ was taken out nearly twelve months after the book first went on sale the answer is an undoubted yes. Added to which much of the stuff was in circulation before the book was published which was taken into consideration by the appeal judges:
Snippet from the Appeal Court Ruling with regard to the witness statements made by Michael Terrence Wright, Alan Robert Pike and Angus Keith McBride:
“Witness statements which show that, already before the publication of the book and documentary in question, there were theories and theses identical to those of GA circulating publicly, mainly on Internet, with the plaintiffs' full knowledge.
Whilst the feelings given as proven in the facts were true, being those of rage, despair, anguish, unrest or worry, namely with regard to what the twins might think, the truth is that these reasons already existed before any intervention on the part of the defendent. The same can be said with regard to the insomnia and lack of appetite.
The Court being obliged to take into consideration that the statements are all made by witnesses close to the plaintiffs (family member, psychologist and lawyer) and that, notably in their statements, they always end up in trying to undermine the theses previous to the book and documentary and, naturally, over-emphasising the impact of the latter on the plaintiffs’ state of mind.
This was the case especially of the witness Michael Terence Wright, who was in charge of the accompanying the plaintiffs after the disappearance of MBM, in the promotion of campaigns and in the monitoring of sites and information circulated on the Internet.
A witness whom, upon analysis, was discredited by the Court (and rightly so) for possessing handwritten organised notes in an almost perfect chronological order containing the topics of the replies to the questions he was asked during the final court session”.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 02:58:54 PM
any news on whether amarals assets are unfrozen...the silence is deafening...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 03:03:26 PM
I have provided a link to the basis of the judgement, which is that Amaral can say anything he wants (to s/he who is willing, no harm can come).
That principle would, indeed, apply (under Portuguese law) if Amaral had not breached secrecy in assembling material for, and writing, his book -- before its release to the general public.
In writing his book (and preparing it for publication) Amaral breached judicial secrecy.
Therefore the principle does not apply.
Therefore Amaral should be held accountable for his lies.
How do you the mccanns have told the truth ferryman ?
Well, of course you don't, do you.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 22, 2016, 03:03:37 PM
any news on whether amarals assets are unfrozen...the silence is deafening...
You know the answer to that. They stay frozen for at least another 28 days. Then the court rules. Why ask stupid questions ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 22, 2016, 03:03:55 PM
Probably on hold until it is seen if an appeal is going to go ahead. What is happening about the outstanding legal bill for the latest appeal? Will that be on hold as well or will the legal fraternity demand payment ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2016, 03:07:00 PM
I don't think Costs in Portugal are quite as onerous as else where.
Any body got any information on this?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 22, 2016, 03:07:40 PM
I have provided a link to the basis of the judgement, which is that Amaral can say anything he wants (to s/he who is willing, no harm can come).
That principle would, indeed, apply (under Portuguese law) if Amaral had not breached secrecy in assembling material for, and writing, his book -- before its release to the general public.
In writing his book (and preparing it for publication) Amaral breached judicial secrecy.
Therefore the principle does not apply.
Therefore Amaral should be held accountable for his lies.
No you haven't. You keep burbling your opinion and passing it off as fact.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 03:14:42 PM
Please don't twist my words again, Stephen. It's a very stupid thing to do.
I am not twisting your words Eleanor.
What do you honestly think the mccanns would do if the mccanns have to pay costs of all the parties involved, which they have to do at present, according to the latest judgement ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2016, 04:00:02 PM
So who thinks The McCanns would pay up just because they are honourably people.
I do not think they will pay up for that reason.
Mainly as, who would? They say the guy has ruined their lives, surely they will dig in their heels before paying anything. I know I wouldn't be happy about paying anything TO someone I was trying to sue..and if there was a way to get out of it I would. As would, I imagine a lot of others, including the McCanns.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 04:01:59 PM
What do you honestly think the mccanns would do if the mccanns have to pay costs of all the parties involved, which they have to do at present, according to the latest judgement ?
Yes you were twisting my words. Stephen.
I have absolutely no doubt that The McCanns would pay up if they ultimately lose. I have no idea of whether or not they will lose. I sincerely hope that they don't. But I have never seen anything to suggest that they are not honourable people.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 04:06:47 PM
Mainly as, who would? They say the guy has ruined their lives, surely they will dig in their heels before paying anything. I know I wouldn't be happy about paying anything TO someone I was trying to sue..and if there was a way to get out of it I would. As would, I imagine a lot of others, including the McCanns.
Not in my World.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2016, 04:09:05 PM
Would you pay up without question in the same situation?
They say the guy has hindered the search for their missing daughter. I disagree on that part but if thats what they think then why on earth would they hand over a considerable chunk of money, money that they have set aside apparently for the search for their missing daughter...pretty much TO the person they were trying to sue to begin with?
Nah, I'm nearly certain they will drag their heels. They may be MADE to pay up eventually but I cannot see them voluntarily doing so. Not in a million years. And I don't think they should be blamed for that, if it happens either.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 04:17:44 PM
Would you pay up without question in the same situation?
They say the guy has hindered the search for their missing daughter. I disagree on that part but if thats what they think then why on earth would they hand over a considerable chunk of money, money that they have set aside apparently for the search for their missing daughter...pretty much TO the person they were trying to sue to begin with?
Nah, I'm nearly certain they will drag their heels. They may be MADE to pay up eventually but I cannot see them voluntarily doing so. Not in a million years. And I don't think they should be blamed for that, if it happens either.
Of course I would pay up. But if you can't see why then I can't help you.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ChloeR on April 22, 2016, 04:19:57 PM
Of course I would pay up. But if you can't see why then I can't help you.
Fair enough. Good on you. It would leave too much of a bitter taste in my mouth to do so under the same circumstances. I can see why they may not want to do so, thats all.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 22, 2016, 04:22:39 PM
I'm bound to concede, I think I'd be in much the same camp as Chloe on this ...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 22, 2016, 04:23:23 PM
Fair enough. Good on you. It would leave too much of a bitter taste in my mouth to do so under the same circumstances. I can see why they may not want to do so, thats all.
On the other hand, it's not money that they actually earned, so perhaps easy come, easy go. They can probably rely on their handful of avid supporters to put hands into pockets and purses to help come up with the readies.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ChloeR on April 22, 2016, 04:27:57 PM
Perhaps the McCanns could move assets into other people's names to avoid paying up which is what I understand amaral has done What happened to his Jag Perhaps Montclair can help
Perhaps thats what they already are doing, with shifting the fund money around and all.
I know nothing about this jag business. I thought Amarals assets (the amount he was being sued for anyway) were frozen already and as such couldn't be sold/transferred/whatever?
Edit. Seems the post I replied to has been deleted...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 22, 2016, 04:35:47 PM
So far the McCanns are not being asked to pay anything to Sr Amaral. The judgement says Sr Amaral does not have to pay money to the McCanns and the McCanns have to pay a shedful of legal fees and court costs in Portugal. That is a court order enforceable by the court. Whether the court can I don't know but if they can you can bet they will. The law does not like people taking the piss out of it in whatever country.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 22, 2016, 04:37:51 PM
So far the McCanns are not being asked to pay anything to Sr Amaral. The judgement says Sr Amaral does not have to pay money to the McCanns and the McCanns have to pay a shedful of legal fees and court costs in Portugal. That is a court order enforceable by the court. Whether the court can I don't know but if they can you can bet they will. The law does not like people taking the piss out of it in whatever country.
Portuguese courts allowed Amaral to get away with doing precisely that for an inordinate length of time leading up to the present position.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2016, 04:38:44 PM
I'm bound to concede, I think I'd be in much the same camp as Chloe on this ...
Shocked I am, Ferryman. One might not agree with The Law, but The Law it is, nevertheless. And The McCanns did invoke this.
I just don't understand why anyone would refuse to pay. Presumably everyone expects Amaral to pay if he loses. I know that he is hog tied, but that is hardly the point.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2016, 04:39:49 PM
On the other hand, it's not money that they actually earned, so perhaps easy come, easy go. They can probably rely on their handful of avid supporters to put hands into pockets and purses to help come up with the readies.
What? Like Amaral's Supporters do you mean?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 22, 2016, 04:41:07 PM
Shocked I am, Ferryman. One might not agree with The Law, but The Law it is, nevertheless. And The McCanns did invoke this.
I just don't understand why anyone would refuse to pay. Presumably everyone expects Amaral to pay if he loses. I know that he is hog tied, but that is hardly the point.
I would have thought that was exactly the point. He has had his assets frozen so has no control over paying whatever the court decrees.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2016, 04:41:42 PM
Perhaps thats what they already are doing, with shifting the fund money around and all.
I know nothing about this jag business. I thought Amarals assets (the amount he was being sued for anyway) were frozen already and as such couldn't be sold/transferred/whatever?
Edit. Seems the post I replied to has been deleted...
Not by me. I am all for a Free For All at the moment. Although John probably won't agree.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2016, 04:43:25 PM
So far the McCanns are not being asked to pay anything to Sr Amaral. The judgement says Sr Amaral does not have to pay money to the McCanns and the McCanns have to pay a shedful of legal fees and court costs in Portugal. That is a court order enforceable by the court. Whether the court can I don't know but if they can you can bet they will. The law does not like people taking the piss out of it in whatever country.
Don't assume that The McCanns would. That would be Libel.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2016, 04:45:20 PM
So you think that Amaral would refuse if he could? What a very strange world in which some of you live.
I'm not saying he would, merely that he doesn't have the option. For a couple , for whom allegedly "it's not about the money", it struck me as a pretty vindictive action have all his assets frozen.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2016, 05:09:30 PM
I'm not saying he would, merely that he doesn't have the option. For a couple , for whom allegedly "it's not about the money", it struck me as a pretty vindictive action have all his assets frozen.
The Portuguese Court froze his assets. Amaral doesn't have a very good record for paying his debts. As The Inland Revenue, a Couple of Banks and his Brother could tell you. That is on his own head.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 22, 2016, 05:11:51 PM
I'm not saying he would, merely that he doesn't have the option. For a couple , for whom allegedly "it's not about the money", it struck me as a pretty vindictive action have all his assets frozen.
Vindictive?
Amaral has a slippery record where payment of debts is concerned.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 22, 2016, 05:12:03 PM
The Portuguese Court froze his assets. Amaral doesn't have a very good record for paying his debts. As The Inland Revenue, a Couple of Banks and his Brother could tell you. That is on his own head.
Of course they did, but I have no doubt that Isabel pressed hard for it 8(>((
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 22, 2016, 05:15:34 PM
Would you pay up without question in the same situation?
They say the guy has hindered the search for their missing daughter. I disagree on that part but if thats what they think then why on earth would they hand over a considerable chunk of money, money that they have set aside apparently for the search for their missing daughter...pretty much TO the person they were trying to sue to begin with?
Nah, I'm nearly certain they will drag their heels. They may be MADE to pay up eventually but I cannot see them voluntarily doing so. Not in a million years. And I don't think they should be blamed for that, if it happens either.
If Mr Amaral decides to proceed with his threat to sue the McCanns, it is a different ball game.
He doesn't just present an invoice and the money is put into his pocket.
The onus will be on him to prove his allegation with accounts of exactly what income he has lost: I would imagine that would be the procedure even for a Portuguese court.
I don't know how they will quantify losses for his legal fees as these have been covered by gifts sent to an account set up for that purpose. That will take a lot of close scrutiny before an assessment can be made.
I don't know how his earnings from television appearances ~ particularly those dealing with the McCann case ~ will be quantified.
If he is claiming financial loss ... the onus will be on him to prove that claim ... I for one would find that prospect almost as interesting as Pandora found the box which she opened. The question is in retrospect did she regret doing that?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 22, 2016, 05:56:49 PM
If Mr Amaral decides to proceed with his threat to sue the McCanns, it is a different ball game.
He doesn't just present an invoice and the money is put into his pocket.
The onus will be on him to prove his allegation with accounts of exactly what income he has lost: I would imagine that would be the procedure even for a Portuguese court.
I don't know how they will quantify losses for his legal fees as these have been covered by gifts sent to an account set up for that purpose. That will take a lot of close scrutiny before an assessment can be made.
I don't know how his earnings from television appearances ~ particularly those dealing with the McCann case ~ will be quantified.
If he is claiming financial loss ... the onus will be on him to prove that claim ... I for one would find that prospect almost as interesting as Pandora found the box which she opened. The question is in retrospect did she regret doing that?
I feel he would be foolish to pursue the McCanns in a UK court, tempting as it may be, unless he was bankrolled by a disgruntled newspaper, bent on revenge.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 22, 2016, 06:47:50 PM
I feel he would be foolish to pursue the McCanns in a UK court, tempting as it may be, unless he was bankrolled by a disgruntled newspaper, bent on revenge.
Of course he would not venture into a UK jurisdiction ... and why should he?
If he sues the McCann's for loss of earnings it will be in a Portuguese court ... but he will be expected to prove exactly how much the alleged losses are ... which will require transparency of his finances over the period for which he is making the claim.
He may be relaxed about that ... on the other hand he may not ... and there is also the possibility to be considered ... that he may not necessarily win any action he takes against the McCanns.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2016, 06:51:28 PM
Of course he would not venture into a UK jurisdiction ... and why should he?
If he sues the McCann's for loss of earnings it will be in a Portuguese court ... but he will be expected to prove exactly how much the alleged losses are ... which will require transparency of his finances over the period for which he is making the claim.
He may be relaxed about that ... on the other hand he may not ... and there is also the possibility to be considered ... that he may not necessarily win any action he takes against the McCanns.
It might be interesting to know how much Amaral spent before The Court put paid to his antics.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 22, 2016, 06:52:13 PM
Of course he would not venture into a UK jurisdiction ... and why should he?
If he sues the McCann's for loss of earnings it will be in a Portuguese court ... but he will be expected to prove exactly how much the alleged losses are ... which will require transparency of his finances over the period for which he is making the claim.
He may be relaxed about that ... on the other hand he may not ... and there is also the possibility to be considered ... that he may not necessarily win any action he takes against the McCanns.
Can he do that? They are not resident in Portugal, neither do they have any assets there, so how could a Portuguese court have any jurisdiction?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 06:56:55 PM
it is the portuguese court who decide amarals book should be banned...so its the court he will need to sue...a load of bluff and bluster
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on April 22, 2016, 07:08:54 PM
The McCanns don't have to pay the lawyers fees for the defendents, only the court costs.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2016, 07:10:40 PM
The McCanns don't have to pay the lawyers fees for the defendents, only the court costs.
Thank you for that.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 22, 2016, 07:10:50 PM
"Under the Brussels Regulation and Lugano Convention, a creditor can enforce a debt in another country if that country uses the regulation or convention. The Brussels Regulation includes all EU countries, except Denmark; and the Lugano Convention covers members of the European Free Trade Association".
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 07:10:59 PM
"Under the Brussels Regulation and Lugano Convention, a creditor can enforce a debt in another country if that country uses the regulation or convention. The Brussels Regulation includes all EU countries, except Denmark; and the Lugano Convention covers members of the European Free Trade Association".
#the debt has to be enforced by the country the defendant resides in...the defendant can contest it
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 07:14:07 PM
The action was bought by the mccanns in their quest for money.
oh dear...not a very educated answer ..the mccanns can't ban the book...it was the courts decision...any sensible person will see I have a very valid point
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 22, 2016, 07:18:28 PM
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on April 22, 2016, 07:27:24 PM
...
Here is an on-topic maths question for Davel - add the number of prime ministers who personally phoned GM in 2007, to the number of foreign secretaries who personally phoned GM in 2007, and what do you get?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 07:30:59 PM
... I took maths pure and applied with mechanics at both A and Special level around 1968... I have not used it since...don't expect me to remember all of it after almost 50 yrs
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 07:38:47 PM
...
Now back to topic.
Amaral has won the case and it will be difficult to justify an appeal to the Supreme Court.
Then I will await his cases for damages against the mccanns and those others who libelled him.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ChloeR on April 22, 2016, 07:41:04 PM
Of course he would not venture into a UK jurisdiction ... and why should he?
If he sues the McCann's for loss of earnings it will be in a Portuguese court ... but he will be expected to prove exactly how much the alleged losses are ... which will require transparency of his finances over the period for which he is making the claim.
He may be relaxed about that ... on the other hand he may not ... and there is also the possibility to be considered ... that he may not necessarily win any action he takes against the McCanns.
Indeed..its just back on the roundabout again isn't it. They pay his costs, he sues unsuccessfully, pays theirs, etc etc. Really its nothing buy another payday for the lawyers. I'm sure he is sick of all the court crap now, and honestly..whatever you believe happened to Madeleine.. the McCanns are still surely racked with guilt and going through hell anyway even without the endless court cases all of this. Time it was all left to rest really.
(court cases, not the search)
I also don't think he lost earnings through them at all tbh, if anything he has profited from the case given the income from the book. Yes his 'good name' may have been called into question but launching another case is just tit for tat rubbish I think.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 07:41:36 PM
So it seem that amaral has won this appeal but the McCanns have the right to appeal. Whether the court will allow that appeal is another question. Until then amaral's assets remain frozen...so he is not yet out of the woods.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2016, 07:41:44 PM
Okay. It's a draw between Davel and Stephen. Because I said so.
Now, what was The Topic?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 07:43:46 PM
Indeed..its just back on the roundabout again isn't it. They pay his costs, he sues unsuccessfully, pays theirs, etc etc. Really its nothi9ng buy another payday for the lawyers. I'm sure he is sick of all the court crap now, and honestly..whatever you believe happened to Madeleine.. the McCanns are still surely racked with guilt and going through hell anyway even without the endless court cases all of this. Time it was all left to rest really.
(court cases, not the search)
A post with some sense but how can it stop
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 07:44:10 PM
So it seem that amaral has won this appeal but the McCanns have the right to appeal. Whether the court will allow that appeal is another question. Until then amaral's assets remain frozen...so he is not yet out of the woods.
I believe that to be exactly the position at present.
Does anyone know whether the remaining 28 days are working days or calendar days ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2016, 07:48:28 PM
If Mr Amaral decides to proceed with his threat to sue the McCanns, it is a different ball game.
He doesn't just present an invoice and the money is put into his pocket.
The onus will be on him to prove his allegation with accounts of exactly what income he has lost: I would imagine that would be the procedure even for a Portuguese court.
I don't know how they will quantify losses for his legal fees as these have been covered by gifts sent to an account set up for that purpose. That will take a lot of close scrutiny before an assessment can be made.
I don't know how his earnings from television appearances ~ particularly those dealing with the McCann case ~ will be quantified.
If he is claiming financial loss ... the onus will be on him to prove that claim ... I for one would find that prospect almost as interesting as Pandora found the box which she opened. The question is in retrospect did she regret doing that?
I am sure he will have "gone to school on their putt" as it were and will leave well alone after suggesting he will not, just to give a few people a bit of ring twitter.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ChloeR on April 22, 2016, 07:55:10 PM
i wonder who will win the next round...and how many rounds there will be
Will this current chance of appeal not be the final round in this particular case? Or if the decision is changed can Amaral appeal again? If it can just be appealed endlessly its a bit of a joke as there will never be a conclusion
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 07:58:04 PM
Will this current chance of appeal not be the final round in this particular case? Or if the decision is changed can Amaral appeal again? If it can just be appealed endlessly its a bit of a joke as there will never be a conclusion
It does seem to drag on and on and on.
When one gets to be 70, there is some concern over if one will live to see the end. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2016, 08:01:18 PM
Will this current chance of appeal not be the final round in this particular case? Or if the decision is changed can Amaral appeal again? If it can just be appealed endlessly its a bit of a joke as there will never be a conclusion
my post was quite serious...does anyone know how many rounds there will be...perhaps Montclair could advise
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 22, 2016, 08:06:24 PM
Will this current chance of appeal not be the final round in this particular case? Or if the decision is changed can Amaral appeal again? If it can just be appealed endlessly its a bit of a joke as there will never be a conclusion
The Portuguese Supreme Court is more or less the last stop unless someone wants to try to have the case ruled on at the ECHR. It is not a given the ECHR will hear it anyway and it could drag on for another few years going that route. Both parties seem to be hell bent on self destruction imo.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 08:07:17 PM
The bottom line remains.
Amaral won the appeal.
The Supreme Court in Portugal, from what I have read and been told does not normally civil cases.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 08:08:37 PM
The Portuguese Supreme Court is more or less the last stop unless someone wants to try to have the case ruled on at the ECHR. It is not a given the ECHR will hear it anyway and it could drag on for another few years going that route. Both parties seem to be hell bent on self destruction imo.
I remember saying several years that this would go on for years.
Seems I was correct.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 08:10:13 PM
The Portuguese Supreme Court is more or less the last stop unless someone wants to try to have the case ruled on at the ECHR. It is not a given the ECHR will hear it anyway and it could drag on for another few years going that route. Both parties seem to be hell bent on self destruction imo.
agreed apart from the fact that I would say self preservation. The self destruction description is more apt to amaral.. He could have written a very similar book which did not expose himself to such a risk..an arrogant fool is a reasonable description...he was and felt untouchable...he isn't
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 08:11:38 PM
agreed apart from the fact that I would say self preservation. The self destruction description is more apt to amaral.. He could have written a very similar book which did not expose himself to such a risk..an arrogant fool is a reasonable description...he was and felt untouchable...he isn't
That is exactly the description I would give of the mccanns.
Arrogant and they thought they were invulnerable.
Right on the first, wrong on the second.
IMO of course.....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 22, 2016, 08:12:58 PM
I am sure he will have "gone to school on their putt" as it were and will leave well alone after suggesting he will not, just to give a few people a bit of ring twitter.
I wouldn't bet the mortgage on it Alice ... he has form for taking out expensive (for him) and ill advised defamation action against people he believes have insulted his honour.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 22, 2016, 08:21:58 PM
agreed apart from the fact that I would say self preservation. The self destruction description is more apt to amaral.. He could have written a very similar book which did not expose himself to such a risk..an arrogant fool is a reasonable description...he was and felt untouchable...he isn't
As far as this damages trial was concerned the McCanns started the juggernaut rolling but seem not to have appreciated it was always going to be the other guy who would be the one who decided when it stopped. imo What ever the result at the Supreme Court both parties would be well advised to give it neck at that point unless they want to waste another 10 years. The worst scenario for either side isn't bad. If the Macs lose out they shell out the remaining court costs and keep the change and can move on it wasn't their money anyway in the sense of manhours worked to obtain it. If Amaral loses he shells out from the sequestered funds so he is no worse off than he is now. No one said Cayman Islands did they? &%+((£
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 08:31:14 PM
As far as this damages trial was concerned the McCanns started the juggernaut rolling but seem not to have appreciated it was always going to be the other guy who would be the one who decided when it stopped. imo What ever the result at the Supreme Court both parties would be well advised to give it neck at that point unless they want to waste another 10 years. The worst scenario for either side isn't bad. If the Macs lose out they shell out the remaining court costs and keep the change and can move on it wasn't their money anyway in the sense of manhours worked to obtain it. If Amaral loses he shells out from the sequestered funds so he is no worse off than he is now. No one said Cayman Islands did they? &%+((£
amaral instigated it by challenging the mccanns to sue him...what a fool he was
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 08:46:10 PM
#I don't need to...you thanked parapono for some legal advice today yet you have no idea how reliable her advice is.. i have a good idea what your source is and is totally unreliable
Really ?
I didn't rely on just one source of information.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 22, 2016, 08:50:30 PM
Absolutely, but it gives the bookies something to work with when setting the odds.
It's all a bit of a gamble when you resort to the Law.
The McCanns did well against the UK newspapers. They paid up without a court battle. I think they expected Amaral to do the same;
It is not often the accusers ask to negotiate before a trial, but in this case it was so. TVmais found that, on the eve of Gonçalo Amaral's trial, the McCann couple's lawyers proposed a meeting in order to reach an extrajudicial settlement [out of court]. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id426.html
This time they had to go the whole way, Amaral being as determined as they were.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 22, 2016, 09:22:48 PM
Did the Tapas 7 get to court, or was theirs an out of court settlement as well?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 09:27:16 PM
The McCanns did well against the UK newspapers. They paid up without a court battle. I think they expected Amaral to do the same;
It is not often the accusers ask to negotiate before a trial, but in this case it was so. TVmais found that, on the eve of Gonçalo Amaral's trial, the McCann couple's lawyers proposed a meeting in order to reach an extrajudicial settlement [out of court]. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id426.html
This time they had to go the whole way, Amaral being as determined as they were.
it is quite normal for the accusers to seek an out of court settlement
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ChloeR on April 22, 2016, 09:30:21 PM
The McCanns did well against the UK newspapers. They paid up without a court battle. I think they expected Amaral to do the same;
It is not often the accusers ask to negotiate before a trial, but in this case it was so. TVmais found that, on the eve of Gonçalo Amaral's trial, the McCann couple's lawyers proposed a meeting in order to reach an extrajudicial settlement [out of court]. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id426.html
This time they had to go the whole way, Amaral being as determined as they were.
However, its not about money, or so we are told? @)(++(*
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 22, 2016, 09:32:48 PM
It will be if they lose . They won't be eager to pay out umpteen thousand in costs.
The Portuguese court order would have to be enforced by a uk court..would the McCanns challenge the award in the uk and would the uk court enforce it Who knows
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 22, 2016, 09:50:05 PM
The McCanns got it banned, overturned on Appeal, Supreme Court upheld the appeal.
And that has all happened, bar the second supreme court possible appeal, twice now. It all rsts if the supreme court a) bothers with it and b) if they do, whether they thnk the appeal court made a grave error in a point of law, as far as I understand it, but IIRC the appeal has t be based n a point of law to be heard in the frst place
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 22, 2016, 10:06:41 PM
If it wasnt they wouldnt have asked for the grossly offensive sum of 1.2m euros. the first judge gave them half, the hgher judges gave them zero.
I wonder how they reached that figure? They got E250k each. If it had been E250k each person that would have been 1.25m Euros. Was there a cut-price person at E200k, I wonder?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on April 22, 2016, 10:48:12 PM
I wonder how they reached that figure? They got E250k each. If it had been E250k each person that would have been 1.25m Euros. Was there a cut-price person at E200k, I wonder?
The breakdown is near the end of this article under the bolded heading what they are demanding
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id244.html
TORN APART BY HIS LIES Sunday Mirror (paper edition)
MADDIE PARENTS SUE COP FOR £1M BOOK PROFITS
EXCLUSIVE
By TOM WORDEN July 12, 2009
Kate and Gerry McCann are suing the police chief who bungled the investigation into their daughter's disappearance - and blamed them for her death - for £1million.
In a 36-page writ handed to the Sunday Mirror, they lay bare in painful detail how Gonçalo Amaral's accusations left them "totally destroyed" and caused them "irreparable" damage.
It also gives a harrowing insight into the day-to-day life in the McCann household as they struggle to cope without Madeleine.
The writ - which the Sunday Mirror has had translated from Portuguese - outlines how the couple both suffer from "permanent anxiety, insomnia, lack of appetite, irritability and an indefinable fear". It also says Kate McCann is "steeped in a deep and serious depression".
Disgraced former police Amaral has pocketed £ 1million writing a lurid book and making a documentary full of cruel lies about Madeliene and her parents. And now they are suing him for every penny of it.
He accuses them of accidentally killing their three-year-old daughter and then covering up her death.
Amaral, who was thrown off case after five months, has repeatedly claimed Madeleine died in the holiday apartment on Algarve. In his book The Truth About The Lie he spouts his absurd theory that the couple hid their daughter's body.
The lawsuit also highlights their fears for four-year-old twins Sean and Amelie when they start school later this year and begin to hear rumours that Madeleine is dead.
And it accuses Amaral of being a self-obsessed, manipulative money-grabber with no morals.
The couple, both 41, have hired Portuguese lawyer Isabel Duarte to sue Amaral for defamation and for breaching their human rights. Mrs Duarte, 54, said: "Somebody has to stop him and shut him up. He is a rich man now, earning millions from the distress of this family. We believe he has made up to 1.2million euros (£1million) from the book and the video. We want the court to punish him by taking at least that much from him."
The McCanns have a good case for defamation as they have already been cleared by Portugal's Attorney General. The case will go to trial in Lisbon next summer and Amaral, 49, could force the McCanns to take the stand. Madeleine is named with Kate and Gerry and the twins as a complainant in the lawsuit, lodged on June 24.
The McCanns, both doctors from Rothley, Leics, claim Amaral's repeated insistence that their daughter is dead has stopped people looking for her. The lawsuit states: "Madeleine has been deprived of the possibility of a fair and adequate investigation into her disappearance, putting her moral and physical integrity at serious risk."
It says Gerry and Kate have been "totally destroyed from a moral, social, ethical, emotional and family point of view, beyond the pain that the absence of their eldest daughter causes them".
The couple want a minimum of £430,000 in damages for Madeleine, which will be used to keep the search for her going. They also want a minimum of £215,000 each for them, and another £86,000 each for the twins. It is thought any money they get will go to the Maddie fund.
Amaral's book has sold around 330,000 copies worldwide. The father-of-three has become a celeb in Portugal, and has a new Jaguar.
The McCanns say his "sole objectives" in writing the book were "to earn a lot of money", using "lies".
It says the book and his 50-minute documentary, which has been shown twice on Portuguese TV, are "manipulative, perverse, false, destructive, defamatory, deeply damaging and therefore illegal".
Amaral was in charge of the 30 detectives looking for Madeleine after she vanished in May 2007 on a family holiday in Praia da Luz.
He was largely responsible for making the McCanns "arguidos" - suspects - four months after Madeleine vanished. But he was kicked off the case in October 2007 days after the Sunday Mirror revealed he was working as little as four hours a day and was enjoying long, boozy lunches.
He was removed from the case on his 48th birthday. Amaral took early retirement shortly afterwards, ending 27 years on the force.
He began writing his book, promoting it by travelling around Europe giving newspaper interviews.
It went on sale in a blaze of publicity in July last year - three days after the McCanns' "arguido" status was removed. Earlier this month Amaral was charged with torturing a witness during a separate missing child case. He faces jail if convicted.
WHAT THEY ARE DEMANDING
£430,000 damages for Madeleine which will be used to continue the search for her.
£215,000 for each parent for the emotional distress the book has caused them. They say they suffer 'permanent anxiety, insomnia, lack of appetite, irritability and an indefinable fear'. The writ also says Kate McCann is 'steeped in a deep and serious depression'.
£86,000 for each of their twins Sean and Amelie, who could hear his allegations when they start school in September.
HOW HE MADE HIS MONEY
£500,000 from the book which has sold 180,000 copies in Portugal alone.
£430,000 from the extra 150,000 books which have been sold in Brazil, France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Holland.
£100,000 for a TV documentary watched by one in five people in Portugal - 75,000 copies have sold on DVD.
*
What follows is the online version, complete with grammatical mistakes as they appeared at the time. The article was removed within a few hours of appearing online but is available in cached version:
TORN APART BY HIS LIES Sunday Mirror (cached article)
By Tom Worden 12/07/2009
EXCLUSIVE: MADDIE PARENTS SUE COP FOR £1M BOOK PROFITS
Kate and Gerry McCann are suing the police chief who bungled the investigation into their daughter's disappearance - and blamed them for her death - for £1million.
In a 36-page writ handed to the Sunday Mirror, they lay bare in painful detail how Gonçalo Amaral's accusations left them "totally destroyed" and caused them "irreparable" damage.
It also gives a harrowing insight into the day-to-day life in the McCann household as they struggle to cope without Madeleine.
The writ - which the Sunday Mirror has had translated from Portuguese - outlines how the couple both suffer from "permanent anxiety, insomnia, lack of appetite, irritability and an indefinable It also says Kate McCann is "in a deep and serious depression".
'Disgraced former police Amaral has pocketed £ 1million writing a lurid book and making documentary full of cruel about Madeliene and her And now they are suing him every penny of it.
He accuses them of accidentally killing their three-year-old daughter and then covering up her death.
Amaral, who was thrown off case after five months, repeatedly claimed Madeleine in the holiday apartment on Algarve. In his book The About The Lie he spouts his theory that the couple hid daughter's body.
The lawsuit also highlights fears for four-year-old twins and Amelie when they start later this year and begin to hear rumours that Madeleine is dead.
And it accuses Amaral of being a self-obsessed, manipulative money-grabber with no morals.
The couple, both 41, have hired Portuguese lawyer Isabel Duarte to sue Amaral for defamation and for breaching their human rights. Mrs Duarte, 54, said: "Somebody has to stop him and shut him up. He is a rich man now, earning millions from the distress of this family. We believe he has made up to 1.2million euros (£1million) from the book and the video. We want the court to punish him by taking at least that much from him."
The McCanns have a good case for defamation as they have already been cleared by Portugal's Attorney General. The case will go to trial in Lisbon next summer and Amaral, 49, could force the McCanns to take the stand. Madeleine is named with Kate and Gerry and the twins as a complainant in the lawsuit, lodged on June 24.
The McCanns, both doctors from Rothley, Leics, claim Amaral's repeated insistence that their daughter is dead has stopped people looking for her. The lawsuit states: "Madeleine has been deprived of the possibility of a fair and adequate investigation into her disappearance, putting her moral and physical integrity at serious risk."
It says Gerry and Kate have been "totally destroyed from a moral, social, ethical, emotional and family point of view, beyond the pain that the absence of their eldest daughter causes them".
The couple want a minimum of £430,000 in damages for Madeleine, which will be used to keep the search for her going. They also want a minimum of £215,000 each for them, and another £86,000 each for the twins. It is thought any money they get will go to the Maddie fund.
Amaral's book has sold around 330,000 copies worldwide. The fatherof-three has become a celeb in Portugal, and has a new Jaguar.
The McCanns say his "sole objectives" in writing the book were "to earn a lot of money", using "lies". It says the book and his 50-minute documentary, which has been shown twice on Portuguese TV, are "manipulative, perverse, false, destructive, defamatory, deeply damaging and therefore illegal".
Amaral was in charge of the 30 detectives looking for Madeleine after she vanished in May 2007 on a family holiday in Praia da Luz.
He was largely responsible for making the McCanns "arguidos" - suspects - four months after Madeleine vanished. But he was kicked off the case in October 2007 days after the Sunday Mirror revealed he was working as little as four hours a day and was enjoying long, boozy lunches.
He was removed from the case on his 48th birthday. Amaral took early retirement shortly afterwards, ending 27 years on the force.
He began writing his book, promoting it by travelling around Europe giving newspaper interviews.
It went on sale in a blaze of publicity in July last year - three days after the McCanns' "arguido" status was removed. Earlier this month Amaral was charged with torturing a witness during a separate missing child case. He faces jail if convicted.
What they are demanding
£430,000 damages for Madeleine which will be used to continue the search for her.
£215,000 for each parent for the emotional distress the book has caused them. They say they suffer 'permanent anxiety, insomnia, lack of appetite, irritability and an indefinable fear'. The writ also says Kate McCann is 'steeped in a deep and serious depression'.
£86,000 for each of their twins Sean and Amelie, who could hear his allegations when they start school in September.
How he made his money
£500,000 from the book which has sold 180,000 copies in Portugal alone.
£430,000 from the extra 150,000 books which have been sold in Brazil, France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Holland.
£100,000 for a TV documentary watched by one in five people in Portugal - 75,000 copies have sold on DVD.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 22, 2016, 10:56:49 PM
If they had asked for twenty million or one Euro it would not have made the slightest difference ... the appeal court judgement would have been exactly the same ... in my opinion.
Had the amount of the award offended the judges ... surely they had the power to reduce it.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on April 22, 2016, 11:03:47 PM
If they had asked for twenty million or one Euro it would not have made the slightest difference ... the appeal court judgement would have been exactly the same ... in my opinion.
Had the amount of the award offended the judges ... surely they had the power to reduce it.
Not convinced. I think the amount claimed and proof required must be linked.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 22, 2016, 11:15:20 PM
Not convinced. I think the amount claimed and proof required must be linked.
The amount claimed is an irrelevance. In today's terms in certain sections of society, such as successful authors, it would be considered a pittance.
It will be very interesting to see what Mr Amaral calculates his wounded honour is worth should he take legal action against the McCanns as he has threatened to do.
I wonder how many will criticise him however much he might claim ~ which in my opinion will not be a peppercorn.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 22, 2016, 11:42:35 PM
amaral instigated it by challenging the mccanns to sue him...what a fool he was
It's not a question of who started it. I would imagine there was a lack of appreciation of the difference between suing the press and suing an individual. The press don't want to go to court and their "business model" is based on out of court settlements because if pitched right the plaintiff cannot afford to take the risk of turning it down and going to court for more because if the sum is reduced by the court then the plaintiff is liable for any costs incurred by the defendant from the date the original offer was rejected. An individual cannot usually afford to do anything other than go the full trip through court or jack it in on day one. Amaral was never going to do anything other than the full trip. Stand on your dignity too much and the lawyers become richer while you become poorer.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 22, 2016, 11:50:32 PM
The breakdown is near the end of this article under the bolded heading what they are demanding
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id244.html
TORN APART BY HIS LIES Sunday Mirror (paper edition)
MADDIE PARENTS SUE COP FOR £1M BOOK PROFITS
EXCLUSIVE
By TOM WORDEN July 12, 2009
Kate and Gerry McCann are suing the police chief who bungled the investigation into their daughter's disappearance - and blamed them for her death - for £1million.
In a 36-page writ handed to the Sunday Mirror, they lay bare in painful detail how Gonçalo Amaral's accusations left them "totally destroyed" and caused them "irreparable" damage.
It also gives a harrowing insight into the day-to-day life in the McCann household as they struggle to cope without Madeleine.
The writ - which the Sunday Mirror has had translated from Portuguese - outlines how the couple both suffer from "permanent anxiety, insomnia, lack of appetite, irritability and an indefinable fear". It also says Kate McCann is "steeped in a deep and serious depression".
Disgraced former police Amaral has pocketed £ 1million writing a lurid book and making a documentary full of cruel lies about Madeliene and her parents. And now they are suing him for every penny of it.
He accuses them of accidentally killing their three-year-old daughter and then covering up her death.
Amaral, who was thrown off case after five months, has repeatedly claimed Madeleine died in the holiday apartment on Algarve. In his book The Truth About The Lie he spouts his absurd theory that the couple hid their daughter's body.
The lawsuit also highlights their fears for four-year-old twins Sean and Amelie when they start school later this year and begin to hear rumours that Madeleine is dead.
And it accuses Amaral of being a self-obsessed, manipulative money-grabber with no morals.
The couple, both 41, have hired Portuguese lawyer Isabel Duarte to sue Amaral for defamation and for breaching their human rights. Mrs Duarte, 54, said: "Somebody has to stop him and shut him up. He is a rich man now, earning millions from the distress of this family. We believe he has made up to 1.2million euros (£1million) from the book and the video. We want the court to punish him by taking at least that much from him."
The McCanns have a good case for defamation as they have already been cleared by Portugal's Attorney General. The case will go to trial in Lisbon next summer and Amaral, 49, could force the McCanns to take the stand. Madeleine is named with Kate and Gerry and the twins as a complainant in the lawsuit, lodged on June 24.
The McCanns, both doctors from Rothley, Leics, claim Amaral's repeated insistence that their daughter is dead has stopped people looking for her. The lawsuit states: "Madeleine has been deprived of the possibility of a fair and adequate investigation into her disappearance, putting her moral and physical integrity at serious risk."
It says Gerry and Kate have been "totally destroyed from a moral, social, ethical, emotional and family point of view, beyond the pain that the absence of their eldest daughter causes them".
The couple want a minimum of £430,000 in damages for Madeleine, which will be used to keep the search for her going. They also want a minimum of £215,000 each for them, and another £86,000 each for the twins. It is thought any money they get will go to the Maddie fund.
Amaral's book has sold around 330,000 copies worldwide. The father-of-three has become a celeb in Portugal, and has a new Jaguar.
The McCanns say his "sole objectives" in writing the book were "to earn a lot of money", using "lies".
It says the book and his 50-minute documentary, which has been shown twice on Portuguese TV, are "manipulative, perverse, false, destructive, defamatory, deeply damaging and therefore illegal".
Amaral was in charge of the 30 detectives looking for Madeleine after she vanished in May 2007 on a family holiday in Praia da Luz.
He was largely responsible for making the McCanns "arguidos" - suspects - four months after Madeleine vanished. But he was kicked off the case in October 2007 days after the Sunday Mirror revealed he was working as little as four hours a day and was enjoying long, boozy lunches.
He was removed from the case on his 48th birthday. Amaral took early retirement shortly afterwards, ending 27 years on the force.
He began writing his book, promoting it by travelling around Europe giving newspaper interviews.
It went on sale in a blaze of publicity in July last year - three days after the McCanns' "arguido" status was removed. Earlier this month Amaral was charged with torturing a witness during a separate missing child case. He faces jail if convicted.
WHAT THEY ARE DEMANDING
£430,000 damages for Madeleine which will be used to continue the search for her.
£215,000 for each parent for the emotional distress the book has caused them. They say they suffer 'permanent anxiety, insomnia, lack of appetite, irritability and an indefinable fear'. The writ also says Kate McCann is 'steeped in a deep and serious depression'.
£86,000 for each of their twins Sean and Amelie, who could hear his allegations when they start school in September.
HOW HE MADE HIS MONEY
£500,000 from the book which has sold 180,000 copies in Portugal alone.
£430,000 from the extra 150,000 books which have been sold in Brazil, France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Holland.
£100,000 for a TV documentary watched by one in five people in Portugal - 75,000 copies have sold on DVD.
*
What follows is the online version, complete with grammatical mistakes as they appeared at the time. The article was removed within a few hours of appearing online but is available in cached version:
TORN APART BY HIS LIES Sunday Mirror (cached article)
By Tom Worden 12/07/2009
EXCLUSIVE: MADDIE PARENTS SUE COP FOR £1M BOOK PROFITS
Kate and Gerry McCann are suing the police chief who bungled the investigation into their daughter's disappearance - and blamed them for her death - for £1million.
In a 36-page writ handed to the Sunday Mirror, they lay bare in painful detail how Gonçalo Amaral's accusations left them "totally destroyed" and caused them "irreparable" damage.
It also gives a harrowing insight into the day-to-day life in the McCann household as they struggle to cope without Madeleine.
The writ - which the Sunday Mirror has had translated from Portuguese - outlines how the couple both suffer from "permanent anxiety, insomnia, lack of appetite, irritability and an indefinable It also says Kate McCann is "in a deep and serious depression".
'Disgraced former police Amaral has pocketed £ 1million writing a lurid book and making documentary full of cruel about Madeliene and her And now they are suing him every penny of it.
He accuses them of accidentally killing their three-year-old daughter and then covering up her death.
Amaral, who was thrown off case after five months, repeatedly claimed Madeleine in the holiday apartment on Algarve. In his book The About The Lie he spouts his theory that the couple hid daughter's body.
The lawsuit also highlights fears for four-year-old twins and Amelie when they start later this year and begin to hear rumours that Madeleine is dead.
And it accuses Amaral of being a self-obsessed, manipulative money-grabber with no morals.
The couple, both 41, have hired Portuguese lawyer Isabel Duarte to sue Amaral for defamation and for breaching their human rights. Mrs Duarte, 54, said: "Somebody has to stop him and shut him up. He is a rich man now, earning millions from the distress of this family. We believe he has made up to 1.2million euros (£1million) from the book and the video. We want the court to punish him by taking at least that much from him."
The McCanns have a good case for defamation as they have already been cleared by Portugal's Attorney General. The case will go to trial in Lisbon next summer and Amaral, 49, could force the McCanns to take the stand. Madeleine is named with Kate and Gerry and the twins as a complainant in the lawsuit, lodged on June 24.
The McCanns, both doctors from Rothley, Leics, claim Amaral's repeated insistence that their daughter is dead has stopped people looking for her. The lawsuit states: "Madeleine has been deprived of the possibility of a fair and adequate investigation into her disappearance, putting her moral and physical integrity at serious risk."
It says Gerry and Kate have been "totally destroyed from a moral, social, ethical, emotional and family point of view, beyond the pain that the absence of their eldest daughter causes them".
The couple want a minimum of £430,000 in damages for Madeleine, which will be used to keep the search for her going. They also want a minimum of £215,000 each for them, and another £86,000 each for the twins. It is thought any money they get will go to the Maddie fund.
Amaral's book has sold around 330,000 copies worldwide. The fatherof-three has become a celeb in Portugal, and has a new Jaguar.
The McCanns say his "sole objectives" in writing the book were "to earn a lot of money", using "lies". It says the book and his 50-minute documentary, which has been shown twice on Portuguese TV, are "manipulative, perverse, false, destructive, defamatory, deeply damaging and therefore illegal".
Amaral was in charge of the 30 detectives looking for Madeleine after she vanished in May 2007 on a family holiday in Praia da Luz.
He was largely responsible for making the McCanns "arguidos" - suspects - four months after Madeleine vanished. But he was kicked off the case in October 2007 days after the Sunday Mirror revealed he was working as little as four hours a day and was enjoying long, boozy lunches.
He was removed from the case on his 48th birthday. Amaral took early retirement shortly afterwards, ending 27 years on the force.
He began writing his book, promoting it by travelling around Europe giving newspaper interviews.
It went on sale in a blaze of publicity in July last year - three days after the McCanns' "arguido" status was removed. Earlier this month Amaral was charged with torturing a witness during a separate missing child case. He faces jail if convicted.
What they are demanding
£430,000 damages for Madeleine which will be used to continue the search for her.
£215,000 for each parent for the emotional distress the book has caused them. They say they suffer 'permanent anxiety, insomnia, lack of appetite, irritability and an indefinable fear'. The writ also says Kate McCann is 'steeped in a deep and serious depression'.
£86,000 for each of their twins Sean and Amelie, who could hear his allegations when they start school in September.
How he made his money
£500,000 from the book which has sold 180,000 copies in Portugal alone.
£430,000 from the extra 150,000 books which have been sold in Brazil, France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Holland.
£100,000 for a TV documentary watched by one in five people in Portugal - 75,000 copies have sold on DVD.
Looking at it in the light of recent events ............................. ?{)(**
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 22, 2016, 11:52:53 PM
Sent away with flea in ear and zero cents
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 22, 2016, 11:57:40 PM
It's not a question of who started it. I would imagine there was a lack of appreciation of the difference between suing the press and suing an individual. The press don't want to go to court and their "business model" is based on out of court settlements because if pitched right the plaintiff cannot afford to take the risk of turning it down and going to court for more because if the sum is reduced by the court then the plaintiff is liable for any costs incurred by the defendant from the date the original offer was rejected. An individual cannot usually afford to do anything other than go the full trip through court or jack it in on day one. Amaral was never going to do anything other than the full trip. Stand on your dignity too much and the lawyers become richer while you become poorer.
I think it may be simpler than that.
One refers to British courts and one refers to Portuguese courts.
Robert Murat , Sergey Malinka and Michaela Walczuchs sued successfully and speedily in Britain for defamation ... I know that R Murat was awarded damages in Portugal ~ but only after having to go to appeal ~ from one media outlet.
Do you know how the other two did with the Portuguese courts?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on April 22, 2016, 11:59:13 PM
If they had asked for twenty million or one Euro it would not have made the slightest difference ... the appeal court judgement would have been exactly the same ... in my opinion.
Had the amount of the award offended the judges ... surely they had the power to reduce it.
The judges stated in the acordão that the amount of compensation of € 500.000 was unjust considering the different financial situations of the parties involved.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 23, 2016, 12:03:05 AM
The judges stated in the acordão that the amount of compensation of € 500.000 was unjust considering the different financial situations of the parties involved.
The McCanns couldn't pay their mortgage. Amaral had earned a million in a few months. I can see the disparity.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 23, 2016, 12:05:53 AM
One refers to British courts and one refers to Portuguese courts.
Robert Murat , Sergey Malinka and Michaela Walczuchs sued successfully and speedily in Britain for defamation ... I know that R Murat was awarded damages in Portugal ~ but only after having to go to appeal ~ from one media outlet.
Do you know how the other two did with the Portuguese courts?
I haven't a clue. Nor am I xenophobic enough to give a rats ass. The UK was used as a libel tourist resort until 2013 when the laws changed. Mr Armstrong sued the Sunday Times successfully in the UK for saying things about him that Greg LeMond had been yelling from the roof tops in the US without fear of action against him. Mr Armstrong of course had to return the money to the Sunday Times.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 23, 2016, 12:13:40 AM
I haven't a clue. Nor am I xenophobic enough to give a rats ass. The UK was used as a libel tourist resort until 2013 when the laws changed. Mr Armstrong sued the Sunday Times successfully in the UK for saying things about him that Greg LeMond had been yelling from the roof tops in the US without fear of action against him. Mr Armstrong of course had to return the money to the Sunday Times.
Is there a Godwin's law to describe the misuse of "xenophobia"? If there isn't, there should be.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 23, 2016, 12:36:31 AM
Is there a Godwin's law to describe the misuse of "xenophobia"? If there isn't, there should be.
It's funny you should say that. My perception of this site since I joined is that I could start a debate on the Euler-Bernoulii theory of beams under miscellaneous and in a few seconds it would be full of posts about what tossers Amaral, Grime and Eddie are etc. Unfortunately usually whenever Portugal is mentioned by supporters it is not in a good light and the childish manner in which it is done grates. So I say xenophobic rather than break forum rules with what I really think, expressed as would be my wont under the circumstances in terms used by a pirates parrot..... ?{)(**
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 23, 2016, 12:42:16 AM
The McCanns couldn't pay their mortgage. Amaral had earned a million in a few months. I can see the disparity.
OMG
The mccanns took two months mortgage payments from the fund early in 2007 and you are equating that with the difficulties they put him in for years?. Unbelieveable!!
@)(++(*
In the end they would never be in financial difficulty as the fund was set up to help "them" financially as one of its aims, so they alwayss had access to as much as they needed if they needed it, multi millions as it became!
One of the most bizarre posts I have ever read in here
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 23, 2016, 01:02:51 AM
The mccanns took two months mortgage payments from the fund early in 2007 and you are equating that with the difficulties they put him in for years?. Unbelieveable!!
@)(++(*
In the end they would never be in financial difficulty as the fund was set up to help "them" financially as one of its aims, so they alwayss had access to as much as they needed if they needed it, multi millions as it became!
One of the most bizarre posts I have ever read in here
I would ask you to consider who had the more ostentatious lifestyle at the time proceedings were issued before mocking my post.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 23, 2016, 01:08:00 AM
Patricia said: "It is so hard to watch Kate and Gerry push themselves constantly. When Madeleine first went missing, family and friends had to step in to help them pay the mortgage.
Read more at http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/madeleine-mccanns-aunt-explains-why-she-has-joined-1079005#g7qLgGXqI8pEP28R.99
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 23, 2016, 01:11:17 AM
I would ask you to consider who had the more ostentatious lifestyle at the time proceedings were issued before mocking my post.
My thnkng your post was ridiculous is not the same as mocking it,so please.... Ostentatious lfestyle has zilch imo to do what what you were saying...which is more or less amaral was rolling in money whilst the mccanns were almost destitute, well, that IS poppycock and especially as regards this court case, as the judges declared HIS fnancial situation was far far worst and they were not talking about 2007
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 23, 2016, 01:16:30 AM
Patricia said: "It is so hard to watch Kate and Gerry push themselves constantly. When Madeleine first went missing, family and friends had to step in to help them pay the mortgage.
Read more at http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/madeleine-mccanns-aunt-explains-why-she-has-joined-1079005#g7qLgGXqI8pEP28R.99
That article was ridiculous as well, her speaking about them havng to afford to run a campaign and a household, err, they had over a million in a couple of months of their fund launch, then they started sellng merchandise, plenty of money in fund to run a campaign, employ tom dick and harry PIs, pay 36k to set up a two bit website, etc. Although the context was people in financial hardship after a family member has gone mssng n a promtion for missing people charity, i think the mccanns were not a good example to flog the cause for
---------quote They are overwhelmed by trying to be breadwinners, investigators and parents. That's why I support the Missing Rights campaign. People need all the help they can get."
Madeleine was snatched from the Portuguese holiday resort of Praia da Luz in the Algarve on May 3, 2007, as Gerry and Kate dined nearby.
For the McCanns, there was a desperate need for funds to pay for legal advice and a worldwide search.
Patricia said: "It is so hard to watch Kate and Gerry push themselves constantly. When Madeleine first went missing, family and friends had to step in to help them pay the mortgage.
"Money is constantly tight but they have to keep going. They will never give up looking and that costs money. Families of the missing still need to pay bills while they search but there is no right to any financial help."
Unquote Read more at http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/madeleine-mccanns-aunt-explains-why-she-has-joined-1079005#cL4D7pc5j8Mk7jaU.99
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 23, 2016, 01:25:13 AM
My thnkng your post was ridiculous is not the same as mocking it,so please.... Ostentatious lfestyle has zilch imo to do what what you were saying...which is more or less amaral was rolling in money whilst the mccanns were almost destitute, well, that IS poppycock and especially as regards this court case, as the judges declared HIS fnancial situation was far far worst and they were not talking about 2007
He had a family home & a loan on a second property in millionaire development Cerro Azul, an ex-wife & child plus a new wife & child. His income had obviously supported that lifestyle, hadn't it - and that was before he banked the McCann enterprise money. All on a policeman's salary. So please - put the original amount claimed & the subsequent award in perspective, in relation to what the man made on the back of his 5 months in charge of the Madeleine investigation.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 23, 2016, 01:31:30 AM
He had a family home & a loan on a second property in millionaire development Cerro Azul, an ex-wife & child plus a new wife & child. His income had obviously supported that lifestyle, hadn't it - and that was before he banked the McCann enterprise money. All on a policeman's salary. So please - put the original amount claimed & the subsequent award in perspective, in relation to what the man made on the back of his 5 months in charge of the Madeleine investigation.
The mccanns are not entitled to others wealth, real or imagined...what they did with it and what they didnt..after all its not about the money at all is it?
I suspect the preciding judges also know what is what vis a vis the defendant and the plaintiffs financial situations better than you
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 23, 2016, 02:23:07 AM
The mccanns are not entitled to others wealth, real or imagined...what they did with it and what they didnt..after all its not about the money at all is it?
I suspect the preciding judges also know what is what vis a vis the defendant and the plaintiffs financial situations better than you
The presiding judge knew his financial state all too well, hence the freezing of assets. I think it's called living beyond your means.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2016, 07:31:45 AM
Amaral was sacked from the (shelved) investigation on 2nd October.
The Gaspar Statements surfaced (to the investigation Amaral was sacked from) on 24 October.
So if Amaral did not breach judicial secrecy (in writing his book) how did the Gaspar Statements surface in his book?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 23, 2016, 07:51:30 AM
Amaral's book hit the shops within days of the archiving.
Before that, there will have contracts signed with publishers, proof-reading of manuscripts and heaven knows what else.
Amaral may have avoided breaching secrecy in the timing of the books reaching the shops, but in preparing it for publication, he sure-as-hell breached secrecy.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 08:17:34 AM
I predict Isabel Duarte will drive a coach-and-horses through this (latest) judgement.
I predict she will fail miserably and they will be very fortunate to get a hearing, since the Supreme Court in Portugal does not usually deal with civil cases.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 08:19:27 AM
Amaral's book hit the shops within days of the archiving.
Before that, there will have contracts signed with publishers, proof-reading of manuscripts and heaven knows what else.
Amaral may have avoided breaching secrecy in the timing of the books reaching the shops, but in preparing it for publication, he sure-as-hell breached secrecy.
The material was already in the public arena.
Try reading Tuesdays judgement and understand it.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 08:22:31 AM
I would ask you to consider who had the more ostentatious lifestyle at the time proceedings were issued before mocking my post.
You should ask that of the mccanns who were both working prior to the holiday in Portugal, and rapidly got into financial problems, resulting in being bailed out by the fund and some of their backers.
Now of course, only one of them works. &%+((£
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2016, 08:22:42 AM
The judge who made the judgement Amaral appealed was incredibly amiss if she missed something as glaringly obvious (in Portuguese law) as that Amaral did not breach laws of secrecy (in writing his book) which (if he had, indeed, avoided that trap) would result in an effective annulment of the usual rules of libel.
In preparing the book for publication, Amaral assuredly breached judicial secrecy.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 08:24:53 AM
The judge who made the judgement Amaral appealed was incredibly amiss if she missed something as glaringly obvious (in Portuguese law) as that Amaral did not breach laws of secrecy (in writing his book) which (if he had, indeed, avoided that trap) would result in an effective annulment of the usual rules of libel.
In preparing the book for publication, Amaral assuredly breached judicial secrecy.
Read the judgement.
It would help.
This concerted effort to put a gloss on Tuesdays judgement, really won't wash.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 23, 2016, 08:26:18 AM
This concerted effort to put a gloss on Tuesdays judgement, really won't wash.
its called DENIAL
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2016, 08:26:24 AM
I think Amaral had The Gaspar Statements long before he was sacked, but what with all the mess he left behind, this would be impossible to prove.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 23, 2016, 08:26:33 AM
I would offer a word of caution to the McCanns given that the Portuguese judicial hierarchy appear to be on the side of free speech and at war with any attempt to stiffle it. Isabel Duarte will go home with her fee regardless of the coutcomes, win or lose. The only thing she might lose in taking this farcical legal action any further is a tad of credibility but the McCanns are facing ruin.
Let's not underestimate the damage that this latest ruling has now caused to the parents and the potential damage which a failed application to the Supreme Court could do to them. I fear they could be being badly advised as happened previously and we all know how that ended.
I have always said that they should settle this with Amaral out of court and I still hold to that.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 08:26:46 AM
The judge who made the judgement Amaral appealed was incredibly amiss if she missed something as glaringly obvious (in Portuguese law) as that Amaral did not breach laws of secrecy (in writing his book) which (if he had, indeed, avoided that trap) would result in an effective annulment of the usual rules of libel.
In preparing the book for publication, Amaral assuredly breached judicial secrecy.
Why do you insist on the breach of judicial secrecy? That ship sailed ages ago.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 08:30:56 AM
I would offer a word of caution to the McCanns given that the Portuguese judicial hierarchy appear to be on the side of free speech and at war with any attempt to stiffle it. Isabel Duarte will go home with her fee regardless of the coutcomes, win or lose. The only thing she might lose in taking this farcical legal action any further is a tad of credibility but the McCanns are facing ruin. Let's not underestimate the damage that this latest ruling hascnow caused to the parents and the potential damage which a/failed application to the Supreme Court could do to them. I fear they could be being badly advised as happened previously and we all know how that ended.
I share your concern for the blatant disregard of the McCanns human rights at the expense of amaral's right to free speech. As we all know free speech comes with responsibility and that is why free speech is NOT an absolute right. We do not have free speech on this forum for those reasons. If the Mccanns fail in portugal...which is not a given....they could take their case to the ECHR where i think their rights will carry more respect. i certainly would not give up if I were them
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 08:32:14 AM
I share your concern for the blatant disregard of the McCanns human rights at the expense of amaral's right to free speech. As we all know free speech comes with responsibility and that is why free speech is NOT an absolute right. We do not have free speech on this forum for those reasons. If the Mccanns fail in portugal...which is not a given....they could take their case to the ECHR where i think their rights will carry more respect. i certainly would not give up if I were them
The mccanns human rights ?
What about Madeleine's dave ?
What on earth do you think the mccanns did in jeopardizing their 3 children's ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 08:37:46 AM
What on earth do you think the mccanns did in jeopardizing their 3 children's ?
you are taking the debate off topic as usual...this trial is about the balance between the human rights of the mccanns and those of amaral...that's it...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 08:39:35 AM
you are taking the debate off topic as usual...this trial is about the balance between the human rights of the mccanns and those of amaral...that's it...
No the trial was all about the mccanns pursuit of money and revenge.
Don't try to kid anyone on that.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2016, 08:44:12 AM
The appeal court judges invoked to s/he who is willing, no harm can come.
That was a misapplication of Portuguese law (because Amaral breached judicial secrecy in writing it).
Or, if the case really is as open-and-shut as the appeal court judges portray it, the McCanns will not be granted leave to appeal (as they will have no grounds).
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 23, 2016, 08:49:25 AM
I think Amaral had The Gaspar Statements long before he was sacked, but what with all the mess he left behind, this would be impossible to prove.
That's the point really. We don't know why the PJ asked for the statements, it's perfectly possible they had mislaid them somehow. Either that or they didn't have the originals for some reason, just translated copies which they wanted to check against the originals. I thought that because of what it says at the beginning of the statements, the translations had been revised;
Final revised translation. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 08:52:18 AM
The appeal court judges invoked to s/he who is willing, no harm can come.
That was a misapplication of Portuguese law (because Amaral breached judicial secrecy in writing it).
Or, if the case really is as open-and-shut as the appeal court judges portray it, the McCanns will not be granted leave to appeal (as they will have no grounds).
There was no mis-application of Portuguese law.
The mccanns will make an even bigger mistake trying to take this to the Supreme Court.
and they will get the rancor they deserve.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 23, 2016, 08:53:11 AM
MOD NOTE
We seem to be getting back into the personal attacks scenario.
Kindly cease and desist.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 08:55:19 AM
The mccanns will make an even bigger mistake trying to take this to the Supreme Court.
and they will get the rancor they deserve.
they will be taking advice from someone who understands the law...they should carry on. The portuguese judgement is a disgrace...imo..and I feel sure the ECHR will agree if it has to go that far
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 09:02:21 AM
they will be taking advice from someone who understands the law...they should carry on. The portuguese judgement is a disgrace...imo..and I feel sure the ECHR will agree if it has to go that far
The mccanns and their supporters are going to be very disappointed.
It was never a disgrace.
The disgrace was the mccanns bringing the case to court in the first place, as a result of what they did.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 09:04:00 AM
Its a real pity that in all this mess a little girl is forgotten. How the hell will all of this find Madeleine?
no one is forgetting maddie.....you are totally wrong imo...as far as amaral is concerned she is dead and the death coverd up by her parents...how the hell will that view find maddie
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 09:09:33 AM
Unless there is a confession, she is not going to found - IMO.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 09:09:59 AM
We seem to be getting back into the personal attacks scenario.
Kindly cease and desist.
Thanks.
perhaps if the two posters who have had abusive posts removed this morning were named and shamed the same thin would not happen again tomorrow...and the next day. I have messaged John
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 09:14:54 AM
Unfortunately, I believe this will carry on for years, one or another.
and the mccanns in doing so will inevitably get further reaction to their vendetta against Amaral.
It will merely reinforce the perception they are not interested in finding Madeleine, just looking for money.
I shudder to think the impact this will have on their other 2 children in years to come.
wrong again..imo...this court case is completely seperate to the search which the Mccanns have driven forward themselves..
The effect on the twins will be worse if their parents are perceived as a pair of criminals ..as in amarals book...and that is why the court case should continue
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 09:15:31 AM
and again i think this may well be correct...or information from family or friends of the perp..or information from the public...that is why it is so important to establish amarals thesis is wrong
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 09:26:04 AM
It doesn't matter if Amaral is right or wrong, it will still all hinge on a confession - again IMO
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 23, 2016, 09:30:21 AM
The statements were attached to a memo dated 24th October. They were made to Leicestershire Police on 16th May. The memo says;
As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm
The PJ knew about them before 24th October or they wouldn't have been able to ask for them.
My understanding is that the PJ must have known about them (or even had received them) as well in order to request them. They could have simply been misfiled and a new copy requested.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 09:34:36 AM
no one is forgetting maddie.....you are totally wrong imo...as far as amaral is concerned she is dead and the death coverd up by her parents...how the hell will that view find maddie
If Amaral wins this libel action Madeleine will be forgotten, the principal reason why it is essential the McCanns prevail.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 09:42:18 AM
The judge who made the judgement Amaral appealed was incredibly amiss if she missed something as glaringly obvious (in Portuguese law) as that Amaral did not breach laws of secrecy (in writing his book) which (if he had, indeed, avoided that trap) would result in an effective annulment of the usual rules of libel.
In preparing the book for publication, Amaral assuredly breached judicial secrecy.
The Appeal Court rejected her argument.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 09:48:28 AM
Unless there is a confession, she is not going to found - IMO.
What I disagree with, Jassi, is that by continually asserting his conclusions in the way he has done, and assuming some unknown party was involved, why on earth confess? Whoever it was has got away with it - and could still be free to commit other crimes.
Would a former spouse, associate, neighbour or whoever bother to contact the police about potential suspicions if they were convinced that M was definitely dead and the mccannswhatdunnit?
In view of the PJ leaks, unredacted files all over the Internet, and hounding by the media and "armchair sleuths", who would feel comfortable that a confidential tip would remain confidential? Crimestoppers guarantees anonymity, but how many people have heard of it, particularly as the system isn't universally known?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 09:55:47 AM
What I disagree with, Jassi, is that by continually asserting his conclusions in the way he has done, and assuming some unknown party was involved, why on earth confess? Whoever it was has got away with it - and could still be free to commit other crimes.
Would a former spouse, associate, neighbour or whoever bother to contact the police about potential suspicions if they were convinced that M was definitely dead and the mccannswhatdunnit?
In view of the PJ leaks, unredacted files all over the Internet, and hounding by the media and "armchair sleuths", who would feel comfortable that a confidential tip would remain confidential? Crimestoppers guarantees anonymity, but how many people have heard of it, particularly as the system isn't universally known?
It is called the internet Carana.
These days material is leaked on the internet only too easily.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 10:04:13 AM
What I disagree with, Jassi, is that by continually asserting his conclusions in the way he has done, and assuming some unknown party was involved, why on earth confess? Whoever it was has got away with it - and could still be free to commit other crimes.
Would a former spouse, associate, neighbour or whoever bother to contact the police about potential suspicions if they were convinced that M was definitely dead and the mccannswhatdunnit?
In view of the PJ leaks, unredacted files all over the Internet, and hounding by the media and "armchair sleuths", who would feel comfortable that a confidential tip would remain confidential? Crimestoppers guarantees anonymity, but how many people have heard of it, particularly as the system isn't universally known?
I consider that Amaral's influence over the public view is inflated out of all proportion by those who don't like what he says.
I can't see a confession from the person responsible, unless a deathebed confession, but others close to that person might be subsequently wracked with guilt.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on April 23, 2016, 10:09:22 AM
I would offer a word of caution to the McCanns given that the Portuguese judicial hierarchy appear to be on the side of free speech and at war with any attempt to stiffle it. Isabel Duarte will go home with her fee regardless of the coutcomes, win or lose. The only thing she might lose in taking this farcical legal action any further is a tad of credibility but the McCanns are facing ruin.
Let's not underestimate the damage that this latest ruling has now caused to the parents and the potential damage which a failed application to the Supreme Court could do to them. I fear they could be being badly advised as happened previously and we all know how that ended.
I have always said that they should settle this with Amaral out of court and I still hold to that.
Why would Gonçalo Amaral ever want to settle this case out of court? That would have been the equivalent of giving in to their demands. It was good that he held out, something that the McCanns never expected, and a lot of information was able to be made public because the open hearings.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 23, 2016, 10:09:51 AM
What I disagree with, Jassi, is that by continually asserting his conclusions in the way he has done, and assuming some unknown party was involved, why on earth comarnfess? Whoever it was has got away with it - and could still be free to commit other crimes.
Would a former spouse, associate, neighbour or whoever bother to contact the police about potential suspicions if they were convinced that M was definitely dead and the mccannswhatdunnit?
In view of the PJ leaks, unredacted files all over the Internet, and hounding by the media and "armchair sleuths", who would feel comfortable that a confidential tip would remain confidential? Crimestoppers guarantees anonymity, but how many people have heard of it, particularly as the system isn't universally known?
I think most people (except the McCanns and their supporters) understand that Amaral offered his opinion of what happened, just as the McCanns and people such as Mark Williams-Thomas offered theirs.
Would a former spouse, associate, neighbour or whoever bother to contact the police about potential suspicions? I think they would if they thought it would lead to the case progressing. The information could support any of the theories which are on the table or help to disprove one of them.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2016, 10:14:45 AM
I think most people (except the McCanns and their supporters) understand that Amaral offered his opinion of what happened, just as the McCanns and people such as Mark Williams-Thomas offered theirs.
Would a former spouse, associate, neighbour or whoever bother to contact the police about potential suspicions? I think they would if they thought it would lead to the case progressing. The information could support any of the theories which are on the table or help to disprove one of them.
In your opinion, was Amaral's opinion incompetent?
Or did he lie?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: xtina on April 23, 2016, 10:16:04 AM
oh but it is ...............since the day the bucket was put in the foyer ......
they used it for protection ....and still are .....
wanting celebrity status ...to live a life they were not acustomed before all this
who do they think they are ....apart from being the ones who put the children in danger in the first place ....yet every one has to pay ...for the choice they made ....lives ruined in the prossess
they want the profit ....that TOTL has made
how come k mcc .is not back at work ...at least adding to the pot..or maybe she can't....
strange how all the support the mccs get ...no one seems to mention the twins ....and what all this must be doing to them....
G A .....was doing his job .........trying to get to the truth ........and for that 8@??)( 8@??)(
TOTL ....wrote by the detective on the case ....who suspected the mccs were involved ....and the millions spent ...to date ...has not proved him wrong.....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 10:17:39 AM
I think most people (except the McCanns and their supporters) understand that Amaral offered his opinion of what happened, just as the McCanns and people such as Mark Williams-Thomas offered theirs.
Would a former spouse, associate, neighbour or whoever bother to contact the police about potential suspicions? I think they would if they thought it would lead to the case progressing. The information could support any of the theories which are on the table or help to disprove one of them.
amaral has stated his opinion as fact and by doing so has defamed the McCanns....violating their human rights....the supreme court either corrects this or the ECHR will
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2016, 10:19:55 AM
Why would Gonçalo Amaral ever want to settle this case out of court? That would have been the equivalent of giving in to their demands. It was good that he held out, something that the McCanns never expected, and a lot of information was able to be made public because the open hearings.
The 'demand' to be left alone to try to find their daughter, whom they had been accused (admittedly by the investigation, not Amaral himself) of murdering
The 'demand' of a reasonable level of redress for being falsely accused (by Amaral) of responsibility for Madeleine's death, concealing her remains and launching a fraudulent fund in their (dead) daughter's name.
What is unreasonable about any of that?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 10:20:47 AM
Why would Gonçalo Amaral ever want to settle this case out of court? That would have been the equivalent of giving in to their demands. It was good that he held out, something that the McCanns never expected, and a lot of information was able to be made public because the open hearings.
I totally agree Montclair.
All the mccanns wanted Amaral's money and for him to be humiliated.
Well the boot is on the other foot now.
The mccann's arrogance has been their undoing.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 23, 2016, 10:22:50 AM
Why would Gonçalo Amaral ever want to settle this case out of court? That would have been the equivalent of giving in to their demands. It was good that he held out, something that the McCanns never expected, and a lot of information was able to be made public because the open hearings.
Agreed. It was never in his interest to give in to their demands. He wrote his book to show how the investigation was conducted and how it reached it's conclusions. It was written in reply to the criticisms, largely in the UK press, saying he was incompetent and lazy.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 10:28:14 AM
amaral has stated his opinion as fact and by doing so has defamed the McCanns....violating their human rights....the supreme court either corrects this or the ECHR will
You are going to be very disappointed, and the latter court has a very long waiting list.
Also, there is no guarantee they would hear a case for the mccanns, let alone uphold it.
By the way, what of Amaral's human rights dave ?
The mccanns have tried to destroy him, morally, personally and financially.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 10:29:46 AM
The 'demand' to be left alone to try to find their daughter, whom they had been accused (admittedly by the investigation, not Amaral himself) of murdering
The 'demand' of a reasonable level of redress for being falsely accused (by Amaral) of responsibility for Madeleine's death, concealing her remains and launching a fraudulent fund in their (dead) daughter's name.
What is unreasonable about any of that?
The use of the word 'demand' says it all. Most rational people would use 'request'.
Why should they need redress when 'it isn't about the money'?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 10:29:59 AM
oh but it is ...............since the day the bucket was put in the foyer ......
they used it for protection ....and still are .....
wanting celebrity status ...to live a life they were not acustomed before all this
who do they think they are ....apart from being the ones who put the children in danger in the first place ....yet every one has to pay ...for the choice they made ....lives ruined in the prossess
they want the profit ....that TOTL has made
how come k mcc .is not back at work ...at least adding to the pot..or maybe she can't....
strange how all the support the mccs get ...no one seems to mention the twins ....and what all this must be doing to them....
G A .....was doing his job .........trying to get to the truth ........and for that 8@??)( 8@??)(
TOTL ....wrote by the detective on the case ....who suspected the mccs were involved ....and the millions spent ...to date ...has not proved him wrong.....
Excellent post Xtina.
8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2016, 10:33:36 AM
The use of the word 'demand' says it all. Most rational people would use 'request'.
Oh Please, Dr Amaral, SIR, please, please do stop accusing us of killing our daughter, disposing of her remains and launching a fraudulent 'fund' in our (dead) daughter's name.
Please, please, PRETTY please
Is that how you think they should have gone about it?
If you had been similarly accused, is that how you would have gone about it?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 10:37:38 AM
Oh Please, Dr Amaral, SIR, please, please do stop accusing us of killing our daughter, disposing of her remains and launching a fraudulent 'fund' in our (dead) daughter's name.
Please, please, PRETTY please
Is that how you think they should have gone about it?
If you had been similarly accused, is that how you would have gone about it?
Oh pretty, pretty please, explain why the mccanns repeatedly and recklessly endangered their children.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 10:38:13 AM
You are going to be very disappointed, and the latter court has a very long waiting list.
Also, there is no guarantee they would hear a case for the mccanns, let alone uphold it.
By the way, what of Amaral's human rights dave ?
The mccanns have tried to destroy him, morally, personally and financially.
I'm not going to be disappointed I am merely an observer....the trial is about free speech and human rights...amaral has violated the mccanns human rights...thats it
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 10:40:10 AM
A less confrontational and dictatorial approach way well have produced better results - IMO
Their whole PR campaign was aimed at suppressing all other views and threatening anyone who openly disagreed with them.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 10:44:56 AM
I'm not going to be disappointed I am merely an observer....the trial is about free speech and human rights...amaral has violated the mccanns human rights...thats it
Wrong, in so may ways.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 10:55:32 AM
In your opinion, was Amaral's opinion incompetent?
Or did he lie?
All the theories are possible. All of them can be questioned, so his theory is no more incompetent than the theory put forward the McCanns or of Mark Williams-Thomas. Actually it's more competent than that of MWT because he made no attempt to explain the open window and shutters.
Lied about what exactly?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on April 23, 2016, 11:02:11 AM
All the theories are possible. All of them can be questioned, so his theory is no more incompetent than the theory put forward the McCanns or of Mark Williams-Thomas. Actually it's more competent than that of MWT because he made no attempt to explain the open window and shutters.
Lied about what exactly?
About what's in the files (and about what Amaral says are in the files).
Total misrepresentation of what Mark Harrison said (and did)
Claim to have corrected and contradicted Stuart Prior on interpretation of the forensic results.
Claim that Stuart Prior rang the FSS to berate them on the PJ's powers of arrest.
Claim that Eddie 'scented death' all over the place, when neither Harrison nor Grime said the same.
Claim that English police officers wore 'find Madeleine' ribbons.
That'll do.
Did he lie?
Or was he incompetent?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 23, 2016, 11:14:16 AM
nobody likes people dictating what they can read etc like mos t things it makes people want to read it more censorship doesnt work because of that if they had been more mature about this they would have ignored the book if it upset them so much imo
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 11:16:12 AM
Oh pretty, pretty please, explain why the mccanns repeatedly and recklessly endangered their children.
What has that got to do with Amaral writing a book based on what he thought had happened to Madeleine? Are you saying that because the McCann's left their children alone that it is only fair and right that a man can accuse them of drugging their children, staging an abduction, hiding their child's body, having all their friends lie for them, transport their child's body in a car weeks later !!! Please tell me what you would have done Stephen, he who runs to the mods every time someone calls you a nasty name.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 23, 2016, 11:25:52 AM
I think most people (except the McCanns and their supporters) understand that Amaral offered his opinion of what happened, just as the McCanns and people such as Mark Williams-Thomas offered theirs.
Would a former spouse, associate, neighbour or whoever bother to contact the police about potential suspicions? I think they would if they thought it would lead to the case progressing. The information could support any of the theories which are on the table or help to disprove one of them.
In my opinion there appears to be a fundamental misunderstanding in Portugal of the use of the media in a missing person case.
The three learned judges have missed the entire purpose of such media interviews ~ which in Britain are conducted under the auspices and control of the police ~ an assistance from which the McCanns did not benefit.
The learned judges seem to evidence a total failure of comprehension of the purpose of the McCann media appearances which I find extraordinary.
The reasoning behind the learned judges reaching the conclusion that the McCanns were therefore expressing an opinion and pushing their theory ... giving Mr Amaral the right to publish a book about his ... is I think an extraordinary conclusion to reach. It shows imo a totally different set of attitudes and thought processes regarding what to do in the event a child goes missing alien to most Western democracies, and leads one to wonder how any foreign national can expect a fair hearing in a civil case such as this one.
quote ~ "By proceeding in this manner, they opened the way for anyone to equally express an opinion about the case, contradicting their thesis – without losing their right to exercise a legitimate, and constitutionally consecrated, right to an opinion and a freedom of expression of thought." ~ end quote
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 11:27:16 AM
About what's in the files (and about what Amaral says are in the files).
Total misrepresentation of what Mark Harrison said (and did)
Claim to have corrected and contradicted Stuart Prior on interpretation of the forensic results.
Claim that Stuart Prior rang the FSS to berate them on the PJ's powers of arrest.
Claim that Eddie 'scented death' all over the place, when neither Harrison nor Grime said the same.
Claim that English police officers wore 'find Madeleine' ribbons.
That'll do.
Did he lie?
Or was he incompetent?
Why don't we ask the judge who ruled in favour of the McCanns?
28. (Items 27 & 28) It is proved that the facts in the book and in the documentary, concerning the investigation, are mostly facts that took place in the investigation and are documented as such.
Although;28. The Judge does note that some of the facts in the book are not complete, and some facts that are in the book are not in the case files, including Jane Tanner's alleged "informal" recognition of Robert Murat.
He knew things which didn't end up being documented in the files, it seems. That is perfectly possible.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 23, 2016, 11:29:08 AM
nobody likes people dictating what they can read etc like mos t things it makes people want to read it more censorship doesnt work because of that if they had been more mature about this they would have ignored the book if it upset them so much imo
So you would have ignored a book that accused you of drugging and hiding your child would you? Tell the truth of course you wouldn't.
He portrayed himself as the man who caught the McCann's out, but in reality he had misunderstood the forensic reports and devised a theory based on what he decided had happened.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 23, 2016, 11:30:14 AM
Why don't we ask the judge who ruled in favour of the McCanns?
28. (Items 27 & 28) It is proved that the facts in the book and in the documentary, concerning the investigation, are mostly facts that took place in the investigation and are documented as such.
Although;28. The Judge does note that some of the facts in the book are not complete, and some facts that are in the book are not in the case files, including Jane Tanner's alleged "informal" recognition of Robert Murat.
He knew things which didn't end up being documented in the files, it seems. That is perfectly possible.
FACTS they are not facts though are they? Nothing was proven otherwise the McCann's would have been arrested and charged.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 23, 2016, 11:32:09 AM
The judge who made the judgement Amaral appealed was incredibly amiss if she missed something as glaringly obvious (in Portuguese law) as that Amaral did not breach laws of secrecy (in writing his book) which (if he had, indeed, avoided that trap) would result in an effective annulment of the usual rules of libel.
In preparing the book for publication, Amaral assuredly breached judicial secrecy.
Explain precisely how that works then.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Angelo222 on April 23, 2016, 11:33:08 AM
no one is forgetting maddie.....you are totally wrong imo...as far as amaral is concerned she is dead and the death coverd up by her parents...how the hell will that view find maddie
You are assuming she is alive which I severely doubt. Even dead she needs to be found and given a proper burial.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 11:33:44 AM
In my opinion there appears to be a fundamental misunderstanding in Portugal of the use of the media in a missing person case.
The three learned judges have missed the entire purpose of such media interviews ~ which in Britain are conducted under the auspices and control of the police ~ an assistance from which the McCanns did not benefit.
The learned judges seem to evidence a total failure of comprehension of the purpose of the McCann media appearances which I find extraordinary.
The reasoning behind the learned judges reaching the conclusion that the McCanns were therefore expressing an opinion and pushing their theory ... giving Mr Amaral the right to publish a book about his ... is I think an extraordinary conclusion to reach. It shows imo a totally different set of attitudes and thought processes regarding what to do in the event a child goes missing alien to most Western democracies, and leads one to wonder how any foreign national can expect a fair hearing in a civil case such as this one.
quote ~ "By proceeding in this manner, they opened the way for anyone to equally express an opinion about the case, contradicting their thesis – without losing their right to exercise a legitimate, and constitutionally consecrated, right to an opinion and a freedom of expression of thought." ~ end quote
It really has nothing to do with a missing child, or indeed any other crime. It is the application of law according to that country. The fact that the application is different to UK is irrelevant - the Court sits in Portugal. A similar trial set in USA may well have a given a different result to that expected by a UK citizen
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 11:34:05 AM
Well you were up in arms about someone abusing another on this forum. What if that person had accused the poster of all that Amaral accused the McCann's of? and then wrote a book about it.
What did kate mccann say about Murat ?
There are two sides to every coin.
Time you realized that.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Angelo222 on April 23, 2016, 11:34:18 AM
Why don't we ask the judge who ruled in favour of the McCanns?
28. (Items 27 & 28) It is proved that the facts in the book and in the documentary, concerning the investigation, are mostly facts that took place in the investigation and are documented as such.
Although;28. The Judge does note that some of the facts in the book are not complete, and some facts that are in the book are not in the case files, including Jane Tanner's alleged "informal" recognition of Robert Murat.
He knew things which didn't end up being documented in the files, it seems. That is perfectly possible.
His video starts with 'let me tell you what REALLY happened' or similar, in other words he is saying what he thought happened is the truth, but it's not is it, otherwise he would have arrested the McCann's and charged them.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 11:35:11 AM
Well you were up in arms about someone abusing another on this forum. What if that person had accused the poster of all that Amaral accused the McCann's of? and then wrote a book about it.
You do know what a thesis is , don't you ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 23, 2016, 11:36:02 AM
It really has nothing to do with a missing child, or indeed any other crime. It is the application of law according to that country. The fact that the application is different to UK is irrelevant - the Court sits in Portugal. A similar trial set in USA may well have a given a different result to that expected by a UK citizen
That's just it jassi, some people are attempting to apply English law to Portugal and that just isn't logical. The onus is completely different in Portugal as is their laws on freedom of speech.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 23, 2016, 11:36:51 AM
His video starts with 'let me tell you what REALLY happened' or similar, in other words he is saying what he thought happened is the truth, but it's not is it, otherwise he would have arrested the McCann's and charged them.
The truth is neither you or I or Amaral know the truth and two former suspects did all they could to make dam sure that never changed.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 23, 2016, 11:39:23 AM
Why don't we ask the judge who ruled in favour of the McCanns?
28. (Items 27 & 28) It is proved that the facts in the book and in the documentary, concerning the investigation, are mostly facts that took place in the investigation and are documented as such.
Although;28. The Judge does note that some of the facts in the book are not complete, and some facts that are in the book are not in the case files, including Jane Tanner's alleged "informal" recognition of Robert Murat.
He knew things which didn't end up being documented in the files, it seems. That is perfectly possible.
Anne Guide's spin ....
Probably more like proved (that Amaral wrote these things in his book).
Comparison (of the content of Amaral's book) with the content of the files demonstrates precisely the factual discrepancies (one with another) I highlight.
What are thoughts on whether Amaral lied or was incompetent.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 23, 2016, 11:40:02 AM
FACTS they are not facts though are they? Nothing was proven otherwise the McCann's would have been arrested and charged.
No, they would have been arrested and charged if there was any physical evidence of an abduction or other theory- they were suspected,and questioned as I would expect as they claim to be the last KNOWN persons to have seen their daughter alive.
1 when Kate was with her 'angels' before bedtime 2 when Gerry saw his daughter 'sleeping'- on his last visit.
The last independent sighting of young Maddie was hours earlier...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 23, 2016, 11:41:16 AM
I consider that Amaral's influence over the public view is inflated out of all proportion by those who don't like what he says.
I can't see a confession from the person responsible, unless a deathebed confession, but others close to that person might be subsequently wracked with guilt.
Indeed.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 11:42:48 AM
No, they would have been arrested and charged if there was any physical evidence of an abduction or other theory- they were suspected,and questioned as I would expect as they claim to be the last KNOWN persons to have seen their daughter alive.
1 when Kate was with her 'angels' before bedtime 2 when Gerry saw his daughter 'sleeping'- on his last visit.
The last independent sighting of young Maddie was hours earlier...
No proof no facts.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 23, 2016, 11:43:29 AM
It really has nothing to do with a missing child, or indeed any other crime. It is the application of law according to that country. The fact that the application is different to UK is irrelevant - the Court sits in Portugal. A similar trial set in USA may well have a given a different result to that expected by a UK citizen
The quote is not mine ... it is a quote from the learned judges in explanation of their ruling on Goncalo Amaral's behalf.
It matters not what jurisdiction one would bring such a case to ... there are no guarantees as to outcome ... but in this case very interesting as to the reasoning behind how this particular one was reached.
The interpretation which has been put on the McCann's media appearances by the appeal court judges says rather a lot about them and the thought processes which enabled them to reach their lawful decision.
As we can see ... it is not Holy Writ ... it is their interpretation.
I haven't had time to read any further than that ... but it does give a flavour of things to come.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 23, 2016, 11:53:23 AM
Oh Please, Dr Amaral, SIR, please, please do stop accusing us of killing our daughter, disposing of her remains and launching a fraudulent 'fund' in our (dead) daughter's name.
Please, please, PRETTY please
Is that how you think they should have gone about it?
If you had been similarly accused, is that how you would have gone about it?
Kindly provide a cite as to Amaral accusing the McCanns of killing Madeleine or stop with this particular theme.
Unless my memory is ****, Amaral's theory revolves around Madeleine falling off the sofa and suffering accidental death.
Accidental death is not the same as killing.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 23, 2016, 11:54:30 AM
The quote is not mine ... it is a quote from the learned judges in explanation of their ruling on Goncalo Amaral's behalf.
It matters not what jurisdiction one would bring such a case to ... there are no guarantees as to outcome ... but in this case very interesting as to the reasoning behind how this particular one was reached.
The interpretation which has been put on the McCann's media appearances by the appeal court judges says rather a lot about them and the thought processes which enabled them to reach their lawful decision.
As we can see ... it is not Holy Writ ... it is their interpretation.
I haven't had time to read any further than that ... but it does give a flavour of things to come.
The same principle in two different trials. That should give a clue which way this is likely to go.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 23, 2016, 11:56:41 AM
Kindly provide a cite as to Amaral accusing the McCanns of killing Madeleine or stop with this particular theme.
Unless my memory is ****, Amaral's theory revolves around Madeleine falling off the sofa and suffering accidental death.
Accidental death is not the same as killing.
GA has never said the mcanns killed maddie imo ferryman saying he did say that is against the forum rules GA has said he will sue people/forums now and he is right to do so imo
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 11:58:44 AM
or evidence supporting the parents 'innocence' ...stale mate! The parents told a story,there is nothing to back up their claim about abduction.
exactly miss taken imo the suprme court wont go ahead but oh well its something for the supporters to cling too its been a bad week for them hasent it??
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 23, 2016, 12:10:33 PM
It's interesting that the judge in the lower court based her judgement on Amaral's alleged misdoing in relation to his previous occupation. His misdeeds were not recorded in the proven facts, they related mostly to the arrangements for selling the books and video and media interviews. Very few proven facts related to the McCanns and those that were were often qualified.
13. Because of the statements made by defendant Gonçalo Amaral in the book, in the documentary and in the interview to Correio da Manhã, authors Kate McCann and Gerald McCann suffer permanent anguish, insomnia, lack of appetite, anxiety and irritability, preoccupation and indefinable fear?
Proved.
Although she says proved, she then says;
13. The judge adds that this psychological state is predates the book launch, the documentary and the interview and was not caused by them.
14 Authors Kate McCann and Gerald McCann feel a deep shame and an indescribable ill-being because they are considered, by most people who know the theories of defendant Gonçalo Amaral, as having responsibility in the death of their daughter, being so cowardly that they have hidden her cadaver, simulating abduction, all of this to avoid criminal prosecution?
Proved
She then adds;
The Judge states that it is not possible to determine what most people who have read or seen Mr Amaral's thesis actually think.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 23, 2016, 12:11:47 PM
In chapter four of his book Mr Amaral goes on at some length about Calpol.
The effect of which on the Portuguese psyche was still reverberating in 2014.
**snip A Belfast couple whose daughter was seized by cops in Portugal because they gave her Calpol have opened up about their holiday hell after being told by police: “We don’t want another Madeleine McCann.” http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/maddie-mccann-police-took-our-baby-because-we-gave-her-calpol-belfast-couples-portugal-holiday-hell-30375896.html
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 23, 2016, 12:15:13 PM
Taken by a paedophile gang, wasn't it? - Of which OG have found no trace, I believe.
What the McCann's may have thought had happened to Madeleine is neither here nor there, distraught as they were, every scenario would have gone through their minds, or can you not understand what parents feel when their child disappears. No doubt the parents of Sarah Payne would have thought the same [sadly it was true]
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 23, 2016, 12:16:49 PM
Taken by a paedophile gang, wasn't it? - Of which OG have found no trace, I believe.
I recall that stirring a conversation with friends as to why he would claim that, there was one offered:
" If that child is found dead or alive , sexual abuse will most probably be evidenced imo, and one wonders if this is someone giving off hints to expect it to be found" another " I suspect the child is dead and sexual abuse would have taken place but not neccisarily by stranger peadofile gang it has hall marks of..." the conversation ceased. I asked the person of the second quote what they meant, they explained, and gave instances where this had similar markers but only offered it up as an opinion.
Makes a strange read to then hear the family claim she came to "no harm"- except the harm caused by the book!
I agree Sr Amaral never accused the parents of killing Maddie. That is a disgraceful slur.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2016, 12:17:50 PM
In my opinion there appears to be a fundamental misunderstanding in Portugal of the use of the media in a missing person case.
The three learned judges have missed the entire purpose of such media interviews ~ which in Britain are conducted under the auspices and control of the police ~ an assistance from which the McCanns did not benefit.
The learned judges seem to evidence a total failure of comprehension of the purpose of the McCann media appearances which I find extraordinary.
The reasoning behind the learned judges reaching the conclusion that the McCanns were therefore expressing an opinion and pushing their theory ... giving Mr Amaral the right to publish a book about his ... is I think an extraordinary conclusion to reach. It shows imo a totally different set of attitudes and thought processes regarding what to do in the event a child goes missing alien to most Western democracies, and leads one to wonder how any foreign national can expect a fair hearing in a civil case such as this one.
quote ~ "By proceeding in this manner, they opened the way for anyone to equally express an opinion about the case, contradicting their thesis – without losing their right to exercise a legitimate, and constitutionally consecrated, right to an opinion and a freedom of expression of thought." ~ end quote
I would have to disagree with you on this one, Brietta.
There was a McCann led PR/media campaign which breached Portuguese law (IMO) and which did not fit any UK model of police-led media relations. I believe it was both unfortunate and counter-productive.
On the topic of whether Portugal could learn a bit about the use of public appeals - I would agree with you that Portugal could learn a lesson from best practice elsewhere.
Trouble is, views have got so entrenched over the disappearance of Madeleine that I'm not sure that anyone is learning a lesson from it.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 23, 2016, 12:19:39 PM
It's interesting that the judge in the lower court based her judgement on Amaral's alleged misdoing in relation to his previous occupation. His misdeeds were not recorded in the proven facts, they related mostly to the arrangements for selling the books and video and media interviews. Very few proven facts related to the McCanns and those that were were often qualified.
13. Because of the statements made by defendant Gonçalo Amaral in the book, in the documentary and in the interview to Correio da Manhã, authors Kate McCann and Gerald McCann suffer permanent anguish, insomnia, lack of appetite, anxiety and irritability, preoccupation and indefinable fear?
Proved.
Although she says proved, she then says;
13. The judge adds that this psychological state is predates the book launch, the documentary and the interview and was not caused by them.
14 Authors Kate McCann and Gerald McCann feel a deep shame and an indescribable ill-being because they are considered, by most people who know the theories of defendant Gonçalo Amaral, as having responsibility in the death of their daughter, being so cowardly that they have hidden her cadaver, simulating abduction, all of this to avoid criminal prosecution?
Proved
She then adds;
The Judge states that it is not possible to determine what most people who have read or seen Mr Amaral's thesis actually think.
You are absolutely correct G.
The Judge mentioned his profession- judicial secrecy was out with her remit of that hearing. If something was to be done about Amaral breaking such law then it had more to do with police making a case against Sr Amaral and not people on a tinertnet forum. Has he been arrested for that heinous crime yet?
"authors Kate McCann and Gerald McCann suffer permanent anguish, insomnia, lack of appetite, anxiety and irritability, preoccupation and indefinable fear? " all this suffering whilst enjoying the good life and him working with very ill, vulnerable patients well I never!
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 12:25:43 PM
No evidence of anything no matter your bluster on abduction.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 23, 2016, 12:28:38 PM
When the last appeal was made to the Supreme Court Isabelle Duarte seems to have based it on this;
In the appeal, the lawyer argues that the Appellate Court “did not take into consideration facts that have never been questioned throughout the process” and stressed that “those elements were not analysed” by the higher judges, in order to annul the Civil Court of Lisbon’s decision after the injunction that was requested by Madeleine’s parents.
“The Appeallate Court did not take into account that the book was made to make money, to deepen the McCann couple’s pain and to damage the investigation”, stressed Isabel Duarte, who has not yet returned Gonçalo Amaral’s book to the publishers Guerra & Paz, for the former inspector’s work to return to bookshops. http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2010/11/mccanns-appeal-to-supreme-court-to.html
She seems to have a very questionable definition of a 'fact'. How on earth did she propose to prove what Amaral's intentions were? No wonder the Supreme Court rejected the application if that's what she thought was relevant. Even the judge in the 'libel' case didn't rely on any of those 'facts'.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on April 23, 2016, 12:36:02 PM
In chapter four of his book Mr Amaral goes on at some length about Calpol. The effect of which on the Portuguese psyche was still reverberating in 2014 (snip) http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/maddie-mccann-police-took-our-baby-because-we-gave-her-calpol-belfast-couples-portugal-holiday-hell-30375896.html
Some UK papers get the facts wrong about that Brietta. For factual accounts, without ridiculous spin and lies to discredit the excellent portuguese police, I suggest you consult TVI, or Publico, english translations of both are at http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-case-of-irish-baby-girl.html
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 23, 2016, 12:48:56 PM
The Judge mentioned his profession- judicial secrecy was out with her remit of that hearing. If something was to be done about Amaral breaking such law then it had more to do with police making a case against Sr Amaral and not people on a tinertnet forum. Has he been arrested for that heinous crime yet?
"authors Kate McCann and Gerald McCann suffer permanent anguish, insomnia, lack of appetite, anxiety and irritability, preoccupation and indefinable fear? " all this suffering whilst enjoying the good life and him working with very ill, vulnerable patients well I never!
When Gerry first returned to work he didn't have contact with patients at first, I believe;
It is planned that Dr McCann will be involved in direct contact with patients in clinic after one month.
After the New Year, "as long as we and he are happy with his progress", the heart specialist will return to clinical care, Dr Skehan said. http://www.standard.co.uk/news/gerry-mccann-returns-to-work-saying-he-is-not-expecting-any-significant-developments-in-the-hunt-for-6697318.html
He must be strong to do his job properly despite not eating or sleeping, being anxious, preoccupied and irritable. I bet he was a joy to be around. Mind you, he was able to function quite early on. Wednesday 16th May;
That day, Gerry played tennis with Seddo, David and the Mark Warner tennis coach. There was no way I could have done this. As well as being acutely aware that the last time I’d played tennis was the last day I’d seen Madeleine, I was far from ready to take part in anything that could be classified as pleasurable. Although I’d been for a run two days before, to me, as I’ve said, this seemed a necessity rather than a pleasure, and there is no doubt there was an element of self-punishment to it. All recreational activities seemed inappropriate, verging on disrespectful, and because they weren’t yet right for me, I found it hard to understand how Gerry could enjoy them, either. Kate McCann. Madeleine
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 23, 2016, 12:55:41 PM
I would have to disagree with you on this one, Brietta.
There was a McCann led PR/media campaign which breached Portuguese law (IMO) and which did not fit any UK model of police-led media relations. I believe it was both unfortunate and counter-productive.
On the topic of whether Portugal could learn a bit about the use of public appeals - I would agree with you that Portugal could learn a lesson from best practice elsewhere.
Trouble is, views have got so entrenched over the disappearance of Madeleine that I'm not sure that anyone is learning a lesson from it.
There is provision in the Portuguese Constitution for the secrecy laws to be considerably relaxed in cases of missing children to allow publicity. I cannot at the moment find the relevant article but it has been published on the forum some time in the past by Carana, I believe.
Mr Amaral could have requested permission from the magistrates to revoke the secrecy law ... he did not ... and that was the genesis of the McCann media campaign. They did what they knew the authorities should have been doing but were not.
The entrenched views regarding the McCanns have emanated from the many headed hydra spawned by one individual and proves the effectiveness of his campaign against the McCanns ... I have given another example of this phenomenon regarding the experience of a Belfast couple and calpol for their child.
Our differing opinions probably stem from many things ... but the way things are shaping up I think we may well be heading to the place where a disinterested view may settle things.
We are where we are because of a book which if the author had wished to express his freedom of expression could imo have achieved that without riding roughshod over the rights of others. Which leads one to wonder.
Do you think it is doubtful if the McCanns are allowed the right to a fair hearing in Portugal? Bearing in mind it is against the Portuguese Constitution (article 15, I think). If so that would be a sorry state of affairs.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 23, 2016, 01:02:05 PM
Some UK papers get the facts wrong about that Brietta. For factual accounts, without ridiculous spin and lies to discredit the excellent portuguese police, I suggest you consult TVI, or Publico, english translations of both are at http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-case-of-irish-baby-girl.html
Thank you but no thank you, Pegasus.
There is a full discussion on the forum about this and photographs which prove the absurdity of the claim that the little girl was thrown from a balcony into a pool.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 01:12:01 PM
There is provision in the Portuguese Constitution for the secrecy laws to be considerably relaxed in cases of missing children to allow publicity. I cannot at the moment find the relevant article but it has been published on the forum some time in the past by Carana, I believe.
Mr Amaral could have requested permission from the magistrates to invoke the secrecy law ... he did not ... and that was the genesis of the McCann media campaign. They did what they knew the authorities should have been doing but were not.
The entrenched views regarding the McCanns have emanated from the many headed hydra spawned by one individual and proves the effectiveness of his campaign against the McCanns ... I have given another example of this phenomenon regarding the experience of a Belfast couple and calpol for their child.
Our differing opinions probably stem from many things ... but the way things are shaping up I think we may well be heading to the place where a disinterested view may settle things.
We are where we are because of a book which if the author had wished to express his freedom of expression could imo have achieved that without riding roughshod over the rights of others. Which leads one to wonder.
Do you think it is doubtful if the McCanns are allowed the right to a fair hearing in Portugal? Bearing in mind it is against the Portuguese Constitution (article 15, I think). If so that would be a sorry state of affairs.
No doubt if they had won this appeal, you would have never considered whether the procedure was fair or not.
Prejudice clouds judgment -IMO
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 23, 2016, 01:14:00 PM
When Gerry first returned to work he didn't have contact with patients at first, I believe;
It is planned that Dr McCann will be involved in direct contact with patients in clinic after one month.
After the New Year, "as long as we and he are happy with his progress", the heart specialist will return to clinical care, Dr Skehan said. http://www.standard.co.uk/news/gerry-mccann-returns-to-work-saying-he-is-not-expecting-any-significant-developments-in-the-hunt-for-6697318.html
He must be strong to do his job properly despite not eating or sleeping, being anxious, preoccupied and irritable. I bet he was a joy to be around. Mind you, he was able to function quite early on. Wednesday 16th May;
That day, Gerry played tennis with Seddo, David and the Mark Warner tennis coach. There was no way I could have done this. As well as being acutely aware that the last time I’d played tennis was the last day I’d seen Madeleine, I was far from ready to take part in anything that could be classified as pleasurable. Although I’d been for a run two days before, to me, as I’ve said, this seemed a necessity rather than a pleasure, and there is no doubt there was an element of self-punishment to it. All recreational activities seemed inappropriate, verging on disrespectful, and because they weren’t yet right for me, I found it hard to understand how Gerry could enjoy them, either. Kate McCann. Madeleine
Mens sana in corpore sano a healthy mind in a healthy body
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 23, 2016, 01:18:54 PM
I'm sure that if they had won this appeal, you would have never considered whether the procedure was fair or not.
Prejudice clouds judgment -IMO
I fully expected the judgement against Mr Amaral to stand ~ I am disappointed it did not ~ so if I am to be considered prejudiced do you consider those currently rejoicing that it did not stand similarly prejudiced? Rhetorical question.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 01:23:54 PM
I fully expected the judgement against Mr Amaral to stand ~ I am disappointed it did not ~ so if I am to be considered prejudiced do you consider those currently rejoicing that it did not stand similarly prejudiced? Rhetorical question.
You are claiming it is unfair, which is more than mere disappointment.
If Amaral had lost, I wouldn't have been claiming it was unfair, even though I would have been mildly disappointed.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 23, 2016, 01:27:20 PM
Mens sana in corpore sano a healthy mind in a healthy body
...While His daughter was being attended to by Abducting Paedophiles...Yes it is best to play tennis, go jogging and do other non fun stuff, It must have been a huge burden to have to not enjoy doing what he used to enjoy doing but to keep doing it anyway because,well because.. Hm can someone help me out with this?
I was thinking if I disappear via abducting necrophiliacs,my children will have the sense to self harm by playing golf,Tennis,mountain climbing, running marathons and hating every bloody minute of it.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 23, 2016, 01:31:52 PM
There is provision in the Portuguese Constitution for the secrecy laws to be considerably relaxed in cases of missing children to allow publicity. I cannot at the moment find the relevant article but it has been published on the forum some time in the past by Carana, I believe.
Mr Amaral could have requested permission from the magistrates to revoke the secrecy law ... he did not ... and that was the genesis of the McCann media campaign. They did what they knew the authorities should have been doing but were not.
The entrenched views regarding the McCanns have emanated from the many headed hydra spawned by one individual and proves the effectiveness of his campaign against the McCanns ... I have given another example of this phenomenon regarding the experience of a Belfast couple and calpol for their child.
Our differing opinions probably stem from many things ... but the way things are shaping up I think we may well be heading to the place where a disinterested view may settle things.
We are where we are because of a book which if the author had wished to express his freedom of expression could imo have achieved that without riding roughshod over the rights of others. Which leads one to wonder.
Do you think it is doubtful if the McCanns are allowed the right to a fair hearing in Portugal? Bearing in mind it is against the Portuguese Constitution (article 15, I think). If so that would be a sorry state of affairs.
I believe the McCanns should be entitled to a fair hearing in Portugal. I am not clear what the Constitution says on this.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 01:34:24 PM
Is anybody claiming the McCanns can't get a fair hearing in Portugal due to a corrupt judiciary ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2016, 01:45:08 PM
Reading around, it would be quite amusing (were the subject-matter not so serious) to see 'Watcher' (on Amazon) make a complete prat of herself on the question of what, in a legal sense, publish means.
If person A makes a statement to person B (no matter what) than person A has published the statement (to person B). Simple as that.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 23, 2016, 01:47:08 PM
Reading around, it would be quite amusing (were the subject-matter not so serious) to see 'Watcher' (on Amazon) make a complete prat of herself on the question of what, in a legal sense, publish means.
If person A makes a statement to person B (no matter what) than person A has published the statement (to person B). Simple as that.
what goes on on amazon has nothing to do with this forum
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2016, 01:49:32 PM
what goes on on amazon has nothing to do with this forum
Does that apply to twitter posts like those by Craig Murray, brought to this forum?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2016, 01:57:45 PM
I can't think of one sensible thing to say at the moment. Gut reaction won't do. But I am trying really hard to see both sides of whatever logic there is. And there is some logic on both sides.
I think that The Court of Human Rights will have to sort this because no matter who wins the next round, the other party will object.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2016, 02:02:33 PM
I can't think of one sensible thing to say at the moment. Gut reaction won't do. But I am trying really hard to see both sides of whatever logic there is. And there is some logic on both sides.
I think that The Court of Human Rights will have to sort this because no matter who wins the next round, the other party will object.
I humbly beg to differ.
I think the basis on which Amaral was handed judgement in this, latest, court ruling is a pile of crock.
I find it hard to believe that the judge in the previous judgement (in favour of the McCanns) would have overlooked something as basic (in favour of Amaral) as that the McCanns had no right to redress because Amaral's book was published a few days after archiving.
I'm sure she would have fully considered that and rejected the claim (by the McCanns) if it applied.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 23, 2016, 02:02:50 PM
You are claiming it is unfair, which is more than mere disappointment.
If Amaral had lost, I wouldn't have been claiming it was unfair, even though I would have been mildly disappointed.
I was just reading the comments on this thread;
Re: Madeleine McCann's parents win €500k in damages against former police chief.
Lots of praise for the Portuguese Justice system from the supporters, not much criticism of it by the sceptics. The supporters seem to base their opinions solely on whether the McCanns gain or lose.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 02:07:16 PM
That's because the supporters are wedded to the McCanns in a way that the sceptics are not to Amaral. IMO
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 23, 2016, 02:09:38 PM
Re: Madeleine McCann's parents win €500k in damages against former police chief.
Lots of praise for the Portuguese Justice system from the supporters, not much criticism of it by the sceptics. The supporters seem to base their opinions solely on whether the McCanns gain or lose.
From a totally impartial point of view, what do you think of a system which allows the appeal court to overrule almost every decision on supposed points of law made by a judge in a lower court?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2016, 02:11:03 PM
Re: Madeleine McCann's parents win €500k in damages against former police chief.
Lots of praise for the Portuguese Justice system from the supporters, not much criticism of it by the sceptics. The supporters seem to base their opinions solely on whether the McCanns gain or lose.
Madeleine and the McCanns (equally between them) are the victims; Madeleine of an abductor, the McCanns, of losing a loved and treasured daughter; then being pursued in a vindictive and calculated manner by the man who bungled an investigation that culminated in them being accused of murdering their daughter.
What do you expect?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 02:11:12 PM
From a totally impartial point of view, what do you think of a system which allows the appeal court to overrule almost every decision on supposed points of law made by a judge in a lower court?
That's the purpose of an Appeal court. Otherwise why have one?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 23, 2016, 02:13:49 PM
Interesting you should think that, Alice. Do you think they will be refused leave to appeal?
I think an application will be made because the Drs McCann have no choice. Quite how the Supreme Court will deal with it is another matter. Courts at that level, in whatever country, are usually only concerned with major points of law, which may be confused in the broader sense, which require clarification, judgment and ruling by senior advocates. The only confusion on here is that we don't understand Portuguese law so we are really in no position to make a valid judgment on the ins and outs. Googling doesn't count ! For example the judicial secrecy bit. My understanding is that it is not a brick wall and to an extent at the discretion of the examining magistrate ie if he wants something "leaked" he has the authority to do it. Which imo puts it, as a crime, in the same bracket as in days gone by of not signing your driving licence. No one takes any notice unless you get lippy with the law then they do take notice.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 02:13:57 PM
Madeleine and the McCanns (equally between them) are the victims; Madeleine of an abductor, the McCanns, of losing a loved and treasured daughter; then being pursued in a vindictive and calculated manner by the man who bungled an investigation that culminated in them being accused of murdering their daughter.
What do you expect?
I can understand the McCanns being a tad upset about this, but why are others, such as yourself, so worked up on their behalf?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2016, 02:16:00 PM
I think the basis on which Amaral was handed judgement in this, latest, court ruling is a pile of crock.
I find it hard to believe that the judge in the previous judgement (in favour of the McCanns) would have overlooked something as basic (in favour of Amaral) as that the McCanns had no right to redress because Amaral's book was published a few days after archiving.
I'm sure she would have fully considered that and rejected the claim (by the McCanns) if it applied.
We can discuss this until the cows come home, but it won't make any difference at the moment.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2016, 02:17:03 PM
Re: Madeleine McCann's parents win €500k in damages against former police chief.
Lots of praise for the Portuguese Justice system from the supporters, not much criticism of it by the sceptics. The supporters seem to base their opinions solely on whether the McCanns gain or lose.
It is ever thus.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 23, 2016, 02:18:34 PM
I think an application will be made because the Drs McCann have no choice. Quite how the Supreme Court will deal with it is another matter. Courts at that level, in whatever country, are usually only concerned with major points of law, which may be confused in the broader sense, which require clarification, judgment and ruling by senior advocates. The only confusion on here is that we don't understand Portuguese law so we are really in no position to make a valid judgment on the ins and outs. Googling doesn't count ! For example the judicial secrecy bit. My understanding is that it is not a brick wall and to an extent at the discretion of the examining magistrate ie if he wants something "leaked" he has the authority to do it. Which imo puts it, as a crime, in the same bracket as in days gone by of not signing your driving licence. No one takes any notice unless you get lippy with the law then they do take notice.
This is true. Too much emotion going on around here. That will never solve anything In Law.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2016, 02:20:17 PM
I think an application will be made because the Drs McCann have no choice. Quite how the Supreme Court will deal with it is another matter. Courts at that level, in whatever country, are usually only concerned with major points of law, which may be confused in the broader sense, which require clarification, judgment and ruling by senior advocates. The only confusion on here is that we don't understand Portuguese law so we are really in no position to make a valid judgment on the ins and outs. Googling doesn't count ! For example the judicial secrecy bit. My understanding is that it is not a brick wall and to an extent at the discretion of the examining magistrate ie if he wants something "leaked" he has the authority to do it. Which imo puts it, as a crime, in the same bracket as in days gone by of not signing your driving licence. No one takes any notice unless you get lippy with the law then they do take notice.
Senior authorities can make public statements when warranted (e.g., to keep the peace).
Interminable leaks by the PJ or any other odd-bod in officialdom, which led to a media blitz of insinuated guilt throughout the investigation wouldn't be covered by that, as far as I'm aware.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 02:22:24 PM
That's the purpose of an Appeal court. Otherwise why have one?
I agree Appeal Courts are essential to justice. However, in this case, is the overturning of the conclusions made by the judge a reflection of the evidence submitted or a decision based on the judge's interpretation of the law?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 23, 2016, 02:27:35 PM
From a totally impartial point of view, what do you think of a system which allows the appeal court to overrule almost every decision on supposed points of law made by a judge in a lower court?
The first ruling was based on the judge's interpretation of the law. The three (senior) Appeal Court judges interpreted it differently.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 23, 2016, 02:37:34 PM
The first ruling was based on the judge's interpretation of the law. The three (senior) Appeal Court judges interpreted it differently.
The first ruling was based on the judge's interpretation of the evidence & then the application of law. The Supreme Court will only consider if the application of the law was correct.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2016, 02:38:15 PM
The point of whether Amaral should be held criminally accountable for his (unquestioned) breach of Portuguese secrecy laws is separate and distinct from the impact it has on the civil matter of the McCanns' action in libel against Amaral.
The fact that Amaral breached judicial secrecy in writing his book annuls the defence invoked on his behalf by the judges in the latest court ruling.
You might be hard pushed In Law to prove this absolutely.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 02:39:31 PM
The first ruling was based on the judge's interpretation of the evidence & then the application of law. The Supreme Court will only consider if the application of the law was correct.
The Portuguese Supreme Court Misty rarely deals with civil matters.
Last time the mccanns went to the Supreme Court, they lost.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 23, 2016, 02:39:41 PM
Senior authorities can make public statements when warranted (e.g., to keep the peace).
Interminable leaks by the PJ or any other odd-bod in officialdom, which led to a media blitz of insinuated guilt throughout the investigation wouldn't be covered by that, as far as I'm aware.
Exactly the point I am making. Transpose this trial into the UK and the equivalent is it is now being referred to The House of Lords in effect. How many people on here know enough about UK law to have an informed debate about the finer points of law which would be discussed by the senior advocates in the land on which the case's outcome would turn ? So extending that argument how many on here know enough about Romanesque law as applied in Portugal to have an informed debate if in Portugal it needs to be ruled on by their top advocates ? Puerile answers like the Portuguese are tossers and don't know what they are doing are indicative of how the maker of such comments would be incapable of making a valid judgement on much.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2016, 02:41:07 PM
All a matter of interpretation, don't you think. Truth is in the eye of the beholder, or something like that.
As far as I'm aware , no court in any country has yet declared the book to be libel .
In PT, it seems to be a no-man's land: the potential veracity of the facts hadn't been tested in court, but some were made public (others appear to be a hearsay understanding by an investigator who didn't understand English and who, by his own admission, appeared to have been in a bar at various crucial times).
For the moment, in the UK, it is not deemed wise to promote the idea that someone committed crimes without solid proof...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Angelo222 on April 23, 2016, 03:57:45 PM
The judge who determined the original case must be feeling somewhat undermined given the decision by three of Portugal's most senior judges to rubbish her ruling.
Seems she got it totally wrong.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 04:01:17 PM
The judge who determined the original case must be feeling somewhat undermined given the decision by three of Portugal's most senior judges to rubbish her ruling.
That must be the same for any judge who's decision was overruled. As I recall, she was quite a junior judge, so maybe needs to gain a bit more experience at this judging lark.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2016, 04:01:33 PM
The judge who determined the original case must be feeling somewhat undermined given the decision by three of Portugal's most senior judges to rubbish her ruling.
Seems she got it totally wrong.
The most senior judges (surely) would reside in the most senior court (the Supreme Court) which has not considered the matter.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 23, 2016, 04:08:45 PM
What is all this about in Amaral's book, there wasn't any blood found in the car and none of this is in the police files as far as I know, if it is can someone post it on here please -
We confidently wait for the evaluation reports from FSS. A few days after the samples are sent, we are informed that the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns’ car shows a significant match – 50% – with Gerald’s, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children. We telephone the public minister to pass on this initial result and wait for the follow-up to the analyses and definite conclusions But the laboratory takes its time.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 23, 2016, 04:11:04 PM
...While His daughter was being attended to by Abducting Paedophiles...Yes it is best to play tennis, go jogging and do other non fun stuff, It must have been a huge burden to have to not enjoy doing what he used to enjoy doing but to keep doing it anyway because,well because.. Hm can someone help me out with this?
I was thinking if I disappear via abducting necrophiliacs,my children will have the sense to self harm by playing golf,Tennis,mountain climbing, running marathons and hating every bloody minute of it.
Just research on civil cases and the Portuguese Supreme Court.
The details of civil cases are on the "Sessions Resolved" section in the link I provided - and that is just for 2016. It is no use googling Portuguese Supreme Court Civil cases, you have to use the correct Portuguese court title.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 23, 2016, 04:38:43 PM
What is all this about in Amaral's book, there wasn't any blood found in the car and none of this is in the police files as far as I know, if it is can someone post it on here please -
We confidently wait for the evaluation reports from FSS. A few days after the samples are sent, we are informed that the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns’ car shows a significant match – 50% – with Gerald’s, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children. We telephone the public minister to pass on this initial result and wait for the follow-up to the analyses and definite conclusions But the laboratory takes its time.
No, not in the files that I've seen.
Even if that were true, I'm still bewildered as to how he managed to jump to the assumption that the "blood" (never forensically corroborated) must have belonged to one of his children.
However 'unusual' some of his 'expert' interpretations of such 'facts' appear to be, according to the latest PT ruling, he appears to have the right to express them.
A problem is that many people don't even question these assertions and assume them to be an expert analysis...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 04:51:11 PM
The details of civil cases are on the "Sessions Resolved" section in the link I provided - and that is just for 2016. It is no use googling Portuguese Supreme Court Civil cases, you have to use the correct Portuguese court title.
As you are well aware, there is no guarantee this case will be accepted by the Supreme Court.
In a previous session there, the mccanns lost hands down.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: xtina on April 23, 2016, 04:56:44 PM
messages of support from those who donated to the fund......money that was so well spent...
Anônimo Anônimo £4,000
From a group of company workers and of the legal system who are stupefied with what has happened. Portugal and Great Britain are old allies, but the McCanns and the British tabloids have tried to separate us. We all see perfectly what they are trying to do, freezing Dr. Amaral's assets in order to keep him from defending himself, while they use the millions that were donated by the public to sue him. This is not justice. This is wrong. The McCanns lost 5 of their 7 claims, but the British press hasn't reported it, neither did they report the harsh words used by the judge in relation to their presumed "proof". They must pay 60% of the costs, but the British press has not reported it. This small donation is to ensure that this venomous act of hate will not succeed. We believe that one day the truth will be told, although it will be improbable that it will be the parents who will do it.
£1,000 MPS - MPS from an anonymous but very large group of Brit. police officers, outraged at the way in which an SIO has been treated. This strikes at the very basis of the way investigations whould be conducted, “Without Fear or Favour, Malice or ill will”. The world can clearly see where the malice and ill-will are in this case.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 23, 2016, 05:04:29 PM
Even if that were true, I'm still bewildered as to how he managed to jump to the assumption that the "blood" (never forensically corroborated) must have belonged to one of his children.
However 'unusual' some of his 'expert' interpretations of such 'facts' appear to be, according to the latest PT ruling, he appears to have the right to express them.
A problem is that many people don't even question these assertions and assume them to be an expert analysis...
I'm wondering if those judges even read the book and compared it to the Police Files, they said he was allowed to write what was in the files but that wasn't, and straight away people will think it was 'Madeleine's blood' especially coming from the co-ordinator of the case.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 23, 2016, 05:12:20 PM
As you are well aware, there is no guarantee this case will be accepted by the Supreme Court.
In a previous session there, the mccanns lost hands down.
4. From the above mentioned, it is agreed, in accordance with both appeals, to revoke the appealed decision and, considering the action against them to be unfounded, to acquit the appealing plaintiffs of the totality of the requests. The costs, in both instances [courts] are to be paid by the appealed subjects [Kate and Gerry McCann].
I wonder what "unfounded" means in this context? I wonder if it is like "vexatious" "frivolous" and "without merit"
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2016, 05:17:41 PM
I'm wondering if those judges even read the book and compared it to the Police Files, they said he was allowed to write what was in the files but that wasn't, and straight away people will think it was 'Madeleine's blood' especially coming from the co-ordinator of the case.
This worries me, although I am not sure if this is a Point in Law. Is something someone said ever a point in Portuguese Law?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 23, 2016, 05:23:43 PM
I'm wondering if those judges even read the book and compared it to the Police Files, they said he was allowed to write what was in the files but that wasn't, and straight away people will think it was 'Madeleine's blood' especially coming from the co-ordinator of the case.
Even though the former 'expert' coordinator apparently didn't understand the DNA results, there are enough elements in the files that make it clear that they meant little, one way or another.
Corte-Real (the head of the PT forensic institute) even explained the issue in GA's documentary, for heaven's sake.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 23, 2016, 05:31:08 PM
This worries me, although I am not sure if this is a Point in Law. Is something someone said ever a point in Portuguese Law?
In the a quo trial, there was an attempt to check the most salient points against the files. The a quo judge found that "a large part" / the "major part" was in there somewhere, but did not reflect the final analysis based on the totality of the files.
There were also a number of points that didn't appear in the files, but which the judge didn't get into questioning.
In any case, she'd stated from the outset that ascertaining the veracity was outside of the civil remit.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 23, 2016, 05:35:11 PM
I'm wondering if those judges even read the book and compared it to the Police Files, they said he was allowed to write what was in the files but that wasn't, and straight away people will think it was 'Madeleine's blood' especially coming from the co-ordinator of the case.
Do you have a cite for that. I cannot find it in the judgement. They did say this however which is a bit different:
"Nevertheless, the exposed thesis, that the child died accidentally and that fact was concealed by the parents, who have broadcast, in order to deceive, the hypothesis of an abduction, is not new – the same is equally contained in the report which is mentioned under number 9 of the proven facts, determining the arguido constitution of said subjects of appeal [Kate and Gerry McCann], and was, after a copy of the inquiry was made public, published in the media (numbers 65 and 66 of proven facts)".
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: xtina on April 23, 2016, 05:36:38 PM
Rua Segura is a TV program where criminal cases & current issues are debated on CMTV. In this episode the reconstruction made by CMTV [see CMTV 'Maddie Case Special'] about the night when Madeleine disappeared was shown, followed by a very short debate with Dr. Carlos Anjos, former PJ inspector and with Prof. Rui Pereira, the former Minister of Internal Affairs.
Anchor - This disappearance continues to be shrouded in mystery. Moving on to the next point, the Court of Appeals decision which revoked the sentence that obliged Gonçalo Amaral to pay half a million euro to the parents of Maddie McCann. Carlos, is this ruling a victory for Gonçalo Amaral? Is it also, in some way, a victory for the thesis defended by the former PJ inspector?
Carlos Anjos - No, I don't think so. I do think that it redresses some fairness, some justice. The arguments of the Court of Appeals in my view... I could not comprehend the decision of the 1st instance court. I have a better understanding of this decision, and I understand this decision because knowing the Maddie case as I know, I followed it at the time, and having read the book that Gonçalo wrote, there isn't much in that book that is not on the process. In other words, Gonçalo did an overview of the process, wrote the facts, he had worked on the process, and the only novelty that exists in the book and not on the process is that the process doesn't arrive to a conclusion about what happened to Maddie. It's not able to, that is, there is no proof to indicate that the McCanns were responsible for the death of their daughter. A process does not provide opinions, in a penal process or a criminal one we are limited to ascertain facts. Gonçalo has exactly that factual description of what was proven, the reconstitution of what happened, and then according to all of his knowledge of the process, and of all the information that was compiled throughout the process and with the declarations of the McCanns, he concludes in the book that what had happened was a determined situation: that the child had died earlier due to negligence or due to an accidental death and that the responsibility was of the McCanns, but that was already public knowledge. That was on the process and the process was public. That's why I don't understand the 1st instance court, because it's exactly what the Court of Appeals has now said, that there is nothing in Gonçalo's book that wasn't already public knowledge.
In the a quo trial, there was an attempt to check the most salient points against the files. The a quo judge found that "a large part" / the "major part" was in there somewhere, but did not reflect the final analysis based on the totality of the files.
There were also a number of points that didn't appear in the files, but which the judge didn't get into questioning.
In any case, she'd stated from the outset that ascertaining the veracity was outside of the civil remit.
So, we are back to what Amaral had a right to say without proof.
Might it have been different if it was a Criminal Prosecution?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 05:43:08 PM
I hope I am wrong but am beginning to think that the portuguese courts have no respect for the human rights of individuals and place more emphasis on supporting the police....hence the accusation of residual fascism. As Eleanor posted .. this case may go all the way to the ECHR who I am sure will respect the human rights of the McCanns. IMO amaral has abused his right to free speech and at the moment the portuguese court has supported him. Hopefully the supreme court will apply the law correctly.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 23, 2016, 05:51:48 PM
Do you have a cite for that. I cannot find it in the judgement. They did say this however which is a bit different:
"Nevertheless, the exposed thesis, that the child died accidentally and that fact was concealed by the parents, who have broadcast, in order to deceive, the hypothesis of an abduction, is not new – the same is equally contained in the report which is mentioned under number 9 of the proven facts, determining the arguido constitution of said subjects of appeal [Kate and Gerry McCann], and was, after a copy of the inquiry was made public, published in the media (numbers 65 and 66 of proven facts)".
Unless we're thinking of different things, no. 9 was nothing other than Tavares de Almeida's interim report.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 23, 2016, 05:51:56 PM
I hope I am wrong but am beginning to think that the portuguese courts have no respect for the human rights of individuals and place more emphasis on supporting the police....hence the accusation of residual fascism. As Eleanor posted .. this case may go all the way to the ECHR who I am sure will respect the human rights of the McCanns. IMO amaral has abused his right to free speech and at the moment the portuguese court has supported him. Hopefully the supreme court will apply the law correctly.
The Supreme Court probably will. But at what point any of them get off on messing about with Human Rights remains a nonsense.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 23, 2016, 06:05:06 PM
Unless we're thinking of different things, no. 9 was nothing other than Tavares de Almeida's interim report.
I think the point being made throughout the judgement is that "Amaral's Thesis" for want of a better expression is that the child died accidentally and the parents covered it up. As that was a proposition put forward by the investigation team, was in the subsequently released archive documents and had been made in the press at the time arguido status was conferred then it had been in the public domain well before Amarals book was published and as such even as a retired policeman on the case he was entitled to discuss it and write about it. The judgment as far as I can see imposes no stricture by way of "he can only say what is in the files".
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 23, 2016, 06:38:02 PM
I hope I am wrong but am beginning to think that the portuguese courts have no respect for the human rights of individuals and place more emphasis on supporting the police....hence the accusation of residual fascism. As Eleanor posted .. this case may go all the way to the ECHR who I am sure will respect the human rights of the McCanns. IMO amaral has abused his right to free speech and at the moment the portuguese court has supported him. Hopefully the supreme court will apply the law correctly.
I don't think the Portuguese Supreme Court will overturn this judgement by the Appeal Court given their previous decision in this case.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 06:40:39 PM
I think the point being made throughout the judgement is that "Amaral's Thesis" for want of a better expression is that the child died accidentally and the parents covered it up. As that was a proposition put forward by the investigation team, was in the subsequently released archive documents and had been made in the press at the time arguido status was conferred then it had been in the public domain well before Amarals book was published and as such even as a retired policeman on the case he was entitled to discuss it and write about it. The judgment as far as I can see imposes no stricture by way of "he can only say what is in the files".
the truth is amaral said this IS what happened...this is the TRUTH and the mccanns lied...whatever the law is in portugal this in breach of European law which also governs portugal...it will be very interesting to see how this develops.
Any action against the McCanns by amaral awarded in a portuguese court court would have to be enforced against assets in the UK by a UK court...the McCanns could challenge this ...would a UK court support the abuse by amaral.....I very much doubt it
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 06:41:48 PM
I think the point being made throughout the judgement is that "Amaral's Thesis" for want of a better expression is that the child died accidentally and the parents covered it up. As that was a proposition put forward by the investigation team, was in the subsequently released archive documents and had been made in the press at the time arguido status was conferred then it had been in the public domain well before Amarals book was published and as such even as a retired policeman on the case he was entitled to discuss it and write about it. The judgment as far as I can see imposes no stricture by way of "he can only say what is in the files".
Hmmm.
There wasn't just one investigation team throughout, though, and the second didn't come to the same conclusion, although that point often tends to get muffled under a carpet.
That initial "thesis" is in the early part of the files, but it wasn't given any further credibility as a result of investigations following his departure.
How did that "thesis" get leaked prior to the archival?
A further issue is about how some refer to the TdeA report (which I frankly find quite odd in terms of a police report) is often referred to as THE PJ report, when it wasn't. I've even seen it referred to as the FINAL report - which it most certainly wasn't.
Whether he was limited to the files or whether he was free to offer an opinion about little green men on Mars, why was his major defence that everything he stated was based on facts in the files?
This must be in English somewhere, but it took me long enough to even find this:
Contestou o réu, por impugnação, invocando, em síntese, que o livro não contém qualquer facto novo ou confidencial que não tenha sido objecto do inquérito criminal e sido amplamente divulgado pela Comunicação Social, que o mediatismo internacional do caso não foi por ele criado, mas pelos autores, sendo que a tese que o demandado sustenta no livro está ancorada no extenso e fundamentado relatório de investigação de um inspector -chefe da Polícia Judiciária constante do processo-crime.
Aduziu, ainda, que a acção constitui um atentado ao seu direito de opinião e à liberdade de expressão. Impugnou parcialmente a factualidade articulada e concluiu pela improcedência da acção.
P. 4 http://www.justpamalam.co.uk/jud/mccanns-v-amaral-judgment.pdf
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 06:46:00 PM
the truth is amaral said this IS what happened...this is the TRUTH and the mccanns lied...whatever the law is in portugal this in breach of European law which also governs portugal...it will be very interesting to see how this develops.
Any action against the McCanns by amaral awarded in a portuguese court court would have to be enforced against assets in the UK by a UK court...the McCanns could challenge this ...would a UK court support the abuse by amaral.....I very much doubt it
Any enforcement would be done at the behest of the Portuguese judiciary, as it they who would be out of pocket. At that stage, it probably wouldn't matter what the case was about, only that money was owed. Chance of success? - no idea.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 23, 2016, 06:49:37 PM
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 23, 2016, 06:49:55 PM
The McCanns weren't made arguidos as a result of TdeA's 'inspired' report - he didn't write it (or at least sign it, whoever actually wrote it) until 10 Sept. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 06:50:49 PM
Any enforcement would be done at the behest of the Portuguese judiciary, as it they who would be out of pocket. At that stage, it probably wouldn't matter what the case was about, only that money was owed. Chance of success? - no idea.
the judgement has to be enforced by a UK court...if it was just a rubber stamp there would be no need for the court to be involved,,,the defendant has a right to challenge the order...chance of success...who knows...
Amaral has been threatening to sue for years and he hasn't
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 06:53:14 PM
The right to free speech was not established to allow the defamation of innocent people...amaral is abusing his "right" to free speech and the courts are supporting him...imo... I think the ECHR would take a very different view
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 06:54:07 PM
the truth is amaral said this IS what happened...this is the TRUTH and the mccanns lied...whatever the law is in portugal this in breach of European law which also governs portugal...it will be very interesting to see how this develops.
Any action against the McCanns by amaral awarded in a portuguese court court would have to be enforced against assets in the UK by a UK court...the McCanns could challenge this ...would a UK court support the abuse by amaral.....I very much doubt it
Apologies.
Responded to the wrong post....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 23, 2016, 07:04:10 PM
'We'll do everything we can to get Maddie home': Kate and Gerry McCann vow to not let libel battle de-rail search for missing daughter.
Couple say they will continue to fight against ruling in Portuguese Supreme Court
Kate and Gerry McCann said they were disappointed with the ruling but vowed to keep up the search for Maddie.
THE PARENTS of Madeleine McCann yesterday vowed to “do everything we can to get her home” as they told of their disappointment at losing a battle over a £434,000 libel payout.
Kate and Gerry McCann said they would continue the fight against former Portuguese police chief Goncalo Amaral who claimed they faked their daughter’s abduction.
The couple said it was never about the money, which they would have used to continue the hunt for Maddie, but the damage it has had on the nine-year worldwide search and the crushing impact on 11-year-old twins Sean and Amelie.
Amaral, who won the major legal victory on Tuesday, now intends to sue the McCanns for libel.
In a new posting on the official Find Maddie website, heart doctor Gerry, 47, and ex-GP Kate, 48, state: “We are disappointed with today’s ruling from the Portuguese Appellate Court. As we have said in the past, this action has never been about money.
“It has always been focused on the effects of the libels on our other children and the damage that has been done to the search for Madeleine.”
The parents from Rothley, Leics., who face the agonising ninth anniversary of their daughter’s disappearance in less than two weeks, added: “We will continue to defend ourselves against this libel and the search for our daughter. We will be appealing to the Portuguese Supreme Court.
“Madeleine is still missing and we will do everything we can to get her home.”
The McCanns also took the time to thank their followers for their “continued support” in the update titled: “Statement from Gerry and Kate regarding libel case”.
Amaral, 57, was last year ordered to pay Kate and Gerry half a million euros in damages after he was ruled to have libelled them in his book The Truth of the Lie. But an appeal court in Lisbon overturned the ruling.
The former detective, who worked on the four-year-old's disappearance case in the opening days, claimed the McCanns "covered up Maddie's death by faking her disappearance".
He was taken off the case for criticising British police.
His book, which he made £286,000 from, is due back on the shelves in Portugal next week.
The McCanns now face a series of hefty legal bills to challenge the decision in Portugal’s Supreme Court.
Their fund was down to its last £750,000 in October, with few new cash donations coming in. The Home Office this month stepped in to provide £95,000 to maintain it for six months.
A source close to the McCanns said: “They are seething over the ruling and fear Mr Amaral may now repeat all the slurs. It just drags on and on.
“The timing couldn’t be any worse, just a few weeks away from the ninth anniversary of Madeleine’s disappearance.”
Madeleine vanished from a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz in May 2007.
Kate and Gerry McCann said they were disappointed with the ruling but vowed to keep up the search for Maddie.
THE PARENTS of Madeleine McCann yesterday vowed to “do everything we can to get her home” as they told of their disappointment at losing a battle over a £434,000 libel payout.
Kate and Gerry McCann said they would continue the fight against former Portuguese police chief Goncalo Amaral who claimed they faked their daughter’s abduction.
The couple said it was never about the money, which they would have used to continue the hunt for Maddie, but the damage it has had on the nine-year worldwide search and the crushing impact on 11-year-old twins Sean and Amelie.
Amaral, who won the major legal victory on Tuesday, now intends to sue the McCanns for libel.
In a new posting on the official Find Maddie website, heart doctor Gerry, 47, and ex-GP Kate, 48, state: “We are disappointed with today’s ruling from the Portuguese Appellate Court. As we have said in the past, this action has never been about money.
“It has always been focused on the effects of the libels on our other children and the damage that has been done to the search for Madeleine.”
The parents from Rothley, Leics., who face the agonising ninth anniversary of their daughter’s disappearance in less than two weeks, added: “We will continue to defend ourselves against this libel and the search for our daughter. We will be appealing to the Portuguese Supreme Court.
“Madeleine is still missing and we will do everything we can to get her home.”
The McCanns also took the time to thank their followers for their “continued support” in the update titled: “Statement from Gerry and Kate regarding libel case”.
Amaral, 57, was last year ordered to pay Kate and Gerry half a million euros in damages after he was ruled to have libelled them in his book The Truth of the Lie. But an appeal court in Lisbon overturned the ruling.
The former detective, who worked on the four-year-old's disappearance case in the opening days, claimed the McCanns "covered up Maddie's death by faking her disappearance".
He was taken off the case for criticising British police.
His book, which he made £286,000 from, is due back on the shelves in Portugal next week.
The McCanns now face a series of hefty legal bills to challenge the decision in Portugal’s Supreme Court.
Their fund was down to its last £750,000 in October, with few new cash donations coming in. The Home Office this month stepped in to provide £95,000 to maintain it for six months.
A source close to the McCanns said: “They are seething over the ruling and fear Mr Amaral may now repeat all the slurs. It just drags on and on.
“The timing couldn’t be any worse, just a few weeks away from the ninth anniversary of Madeleine’s disappearance.”
Madeleine vanished from a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz in May 2007.
Kate and Gerry McCann said they were disappointed with the ruling but vowed to keep up the search for Maddie.
THE PARENTS of Madeleine McCann yesterday vowed to “do everything we can to get her home” as they told of their disappointment at losing a battle over a £434,000 libel payout.
Kate and Gerry McCann said they would continue the fight against former Portuguese police chief Goncalo Amaral who claimed they faked their daughter’s abduction.
The couple said it was never about the money, which they would have used to continue the hunt for Maddie, but the damage it has had on the nine-year worldwide search and the crushing impact on 11-year-old twins Sean and Amelie.
Amaral, who won the major legal victory on Tuesday, now intends to sue the McCanns for libel.
In a new posting on the official Find Maddie website, heart doctor Gerry, 47, and ex-GP Kate, 48, state: “We are disappointed with today’s ruling from the Portuguese Appellate Court. As we have said in the past, this action has never been about money.
“It has always been focused on the effects of the libels on our other children and the damage that has been done to the search for Madeleine.”
The parents from Rothley, Leics., who face the agonising ninth anniversary of their daughter’s disappearance in less than two weeks, added: “We will continue to defend ourselves against this libel and the search for our daughter. We will be appealing to the Portuguese Supreme Court.
“Madeleine is still missing and we will do everything we can to get her home.”
The McCanns also took the time to thank their followers for their “continued support” in the update titled: “Statement from Gerry and Kate regarding libel case”.
Amaral, 57, was last year ordered to pay Kate and Gerry half a million euros in damages after he was ruled to have libelled them in his book The Truth of the Lie. But an appeal court in Lisbon overturned the ruling.
The former detective, who worked on the four-year-old's disappearance case in the opening days, claimed the McCanns "covered up Maddie's death by faking her disappearance".
He was taken off the case for criticising British police.
His book, which he made £286,000 from, is due back on the shelves in Portugal next week.
The McCanns now face a series of hefty legal bills to challenge the decision in Portugal’s Supreme Court.
Their fund was down to its last £750,000 in October, with few new cash donations coming in. The Home Office this month stepped in to provide £95,000 to maintain it for six months.
A source close to the McCanns said: “They are seething over the ruling and fear Mr Amaral may now repeat all the slurs. It just drags on and on.
“The timing couldn’t be any worse, just a few weeks away from the ninth anniversary of Madeleine’s disappearance.”
Madeleine vanished from a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz in May 2007.
I think the point being made throughout the judgement is that "Amaral's Thesis" for want of a better expression is that the child died accidentally and the parents covered it up. As that was a proposition put forward by the investigation team, was in the subsequently released archive documents and had been made in the press at the time arguido status was conferred then it had been in the public domain well before Amarals book was published and as such even as a retired policeman on the case he was entitled to discuss it and write about it. The judgment as far as I can see imposes no stricture by way of "he can only say what is in the files".
So your summary is that Amaral was given licence to re-cycle tittle-tattle?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 07:08:52 PM
Kate and Gerry McCann said they were disappointed with the ruling but vowed to keep up the search for Maddie.
THE PARENTS of Madeleine McCann yesterday vowed to “do everything we can to get her home” as they told of their disappointment at losing a battle over a £434,000 libel payout.
Kate and Gerry McCann said they would continue the fight against former Portuguese police chief Goncalo Amaral who claimed they faked their daughter’s abduction.
The couple said it was never about the money, which they would have used to continue the hunt for Maddie, but the damage it has had on the nine-year worldwide search and the crushing impact on 11-year-old twins Sean and Amelie.
Amaral, who won the major legal victory on Tuesday, now intends to sue the McCanns for libel.
In a new posting on the official Find Maddie website, heart doctor Gerry, 47, and ex-GP Kate, 48, state: “We are disappointed with today’s ruling from the Portuguese Appellate Court. As we have said in the past, this action has never been about money.
“It has always been focused on the effects of the libels on our other children and the damage that has been done to the search for Madeleine.”
The parents from Rothley, Leics., who face the agonising ninth anniversary of their daughter’s disappearance in less than two weeks, added: “We will continue to defend ourselves against this libel and the search for our daughter. We will be appealing to the Portuguese Supreme Court.
“Madeleine is still missing and we will do everything we can to get her home.”
The McCanns also took the time to thank their followers for their “continued support” in the update titled: “Statement from Gerry and Kate regarding libel case”.
Amaral, 57, was last year ordered to pay Kate and Gerry half a million euros in damages after he was ruled to have libelled them in his book The Truth of the Lie. But an appeal court in Lisbon overturned the ruling.
The former detective, who worked on the four-year-old's disappearance case in the opening days, claimed the McCanns "covered up Maddie's death by faking her disappearance".
He was taken off the case for criticising British police.
His book, which he made £286,000 from, is due back on the shelves in Portugal next week.
The McCanns now face a series of hefty legal bills to challenge the decision in Portugal’s Supreme Court.
Their fund was down to its last £750,000 in October, with few new cash donations coming in. The Home Office this month stepped in to provide £95,000 to maintain it for six months.
A source close to the McCanns said: “They are seething over the ruling and fear Mr Amaral may now repeat all the slurs. It just drags on and on.
“The timing couldn’t be any worse, just a few weeks away from the ninth anniversary of Madeleine’s disappearance.”
Madeleine vanished from a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz in May 2007.
You are claiming it is unfair, which is more than mere disappointment.
If Amaral had lost, I wouldn't have been claiming it was unfair, even though I would have been mildly disappointed.
I think the learned judges' decision was extraordinary and bizarre and as a result doubt that the McCanns would ever have a fair hearing in Portugal.
However it has long been predicted that the press have been awaiting a judgement in this case to start a media fest featuring the main players. Perhaps it was thought this would be a rerun of the calumnies of 2007 many of which are featured in Mr Amaral's book ~ but which they have had time to scrutinise and make comparisons with reality ~ so I think there will be more reasoned reporting.
I think we are going to see open season on everyone involved in this case ... and there is nothing more to be said about the McCanns that hasn't been said already ... so who does that leave?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 07:18:40 PM
I think the learned judges' decision was extraordinary and bizarre and as a result doubt that the McCanns would ever have a fair hearing in Portugal.
However it has long been predicted that the press have been awaiting a judgement in this case to start a media fest featuring the main players. Perhaps it was thought this would be a rerun of the calumnies of 2007 many of which are featured in Mr Amaral's book ~ but which they have had time to scrutinise and make comparisons with reality ~ so I think there will be more reasoned reporting.
I think we are going to see open season on everyone involved in this case ... and there is nothing more to be said about the McCanns that hasn't been said already ... so who does that leave?
Will anybody care?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 07:21:51 PM
I think the learned judges' decision was extraordinary and bizarre and as a result doubt that the McCanns would ever have a fair hearing in Portugal.
However it has long been predicted that the press have been awaiting a judgement in this case to start a media fest featuring the main players. Perhaps it was thought this would be a rerun of the calumnies of 2007 many of which are featured in Mr Amaral's book ~ but which they have had time to scrutinise and make comparisons with reality ~ so I think there will be more reasoned reporting.
I think we are going to see open season on everyone involved in this case ... and there is nothing more to be said about the McCanns that hasn't been said already ... so who does that leave?
unfortunately sun headlines have a habit of promising a lot but delivering little so we will have to wait and see
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 07:24:39 PM
I think the learned judges' decision was extraordinary and bizarre and as a result doubt that the McCanns would ever have a fair hearing in Portugal.
However it has long been predicted that the press have been awaiting a judgement in this case to start a media fest featuring the main players. Perhaps it was thought this would be a rerun of the calumnies of 2007 many of which are featured in Mr Amaral's book ~ but which they have had time to scrutinise and make comparisons with reality ~ so I think there will be more reasoned reporting.
I think we are going to see open season on everyone involved in this case ... and there is nothing more to be said about the McCanns that hasn't been said already ... so who does that leave?
Of course you do Brietta.
You back the mccanns 100%.
Tell me , have you ever criticized them for what they did in Portugal ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 23, 2016, 07:29:40 PM
Bad? The McCanns have had 60% booted out for all time and 40% booted out by the Appeal Court with the comment the claim was unfounded which may make appeal difficult. All court costs awarded against the McCanns, a shedful of bad publicity for them........yeah I'd say things were bad ?{)(**
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 23, 2016, 07:31:12 PM
Keeping up my Sesame Street simile; this weeks word is traduce 8(>((
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 07:34:28 PM
It's looking like fair game to me. If this is the right of Amaral then so shall it be for others. Silly man, he can't have it both ways. If he can traduce others by right of Portuguese Law, then what on earth did he expect?
For every action there will be a reaction.
and of course Eleanor, every time recently, the mccanns have a story in the press, it comes back at them.
Justice will be served.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 07:35:29 PM
Bad? The McCanns have had 60% booted out for all time and 40% booted out by the Appeal Court with the comment the claim was unfounded which may make appeal difficult. All court costs awarded against the McCanns, a shedful of bad publicity for them........yeah I'd say things were bad ?{)(**
#things are bad for the mccanns because they have lost their daughter...everything else is of little significance
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 23, 2016, 07:35:44 PM
the court said it hadnt been proved....not that it wasnt true...massive difference
If you read my post carefully I made no reference to whether it was true. True or false the original judge booted out 60% of the claim and divvied up the court costs 60/40 in favour of the defendants. That cannot be denied it's in the judgement.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 07:36:07 PM
Exactly the point I am making. Transpose this trial into the UK and the equivalent is it is now being referred to The House of Lords in effect. How many people on here know enough about UK law to have an informed debate about the finer points of law which would be discussed by the senior advocates in the land on which the case's outcome would turn ? So extending that argument how many on here know enough about Romanesque law as applied in Portugal to have an informed debate if in Portugal it needs to be ruled on by their top advocates ? Puerile answers like the Portuguese are tossers and don't know what they are doing are indicative of how the maker of such comments would be incapable of making a valid judgement on much.
In Britain ~ I include Scottish Law in this ~ there are very strict rules about what can and what cannot be reported and when it is allowed to be reported. This is all inclusive.
Any any breach of this is contempt of court and results in the imposition of severe penalties.
Portugal has "strict secrecy laws" and ... ... ?
One doesn't require to be expert in the finer points of law here and in Portugal to understand the basics.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 07:38:19 PM
If you read my post carefully I made no reference to whether it was true. True or false the original judge booted out 60% of the claim and divvied up the court costs 60/40 in favour of the defendants. That cannot be denied it's in the judgement.
if you read my post carefully you will see I didn't say you made any reference either way....I was clarifying the courts ruling
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 23, 2016, 07:38:36 PM
In Britain ~ I include Scottish Law in this ~ there are very strict rules about what can and what cannot be reported and when it is allowed to be reported. This is all inclusive.
Any any breach of this is contempt of court and results in the imposition of severe penalties.
Portugal has "strict secrecy laws" and ... ... ?
One doesn't require to be expert in the finer points of law here and in Portugal to understand the basics.
I think you are overlooking one basic fact which will negate your argument. Your starter for 10 .....find the fact.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 23, 2016, 07:44:33 PM
Their fund was down to its last £750,000 in October, with few new cash donations coming in. The Home Office this month stepped in to provide £95,000 to maintain it for six months.
Oh dear, the Sun still cant get the staff, lol
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 07:45:31 PM
I agree Appeal Courts are essential to justice. However, in this case, is the overturning of the conclusions made by the judge a reflection of the evidence submitted or a decision based on the judge's interpretation of the law?
Following this latest court decision, how much money is left in gofundmejusticegoncalo?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 23, 2016, 07:52:40 PM
In Britain ~ I include Scottish Law in this ~ there are very strict rules about what can and what cannot be reported and when it is allowed to be reported. This is all inclusive.
Any any breach of this is contempt of court and results in the imposition of severe penalties.
Portugal has "strict secrecy laws" and ... ... ?
One doesn't require to be expert in the finer points of law here and in Portugal to understand the basics.
Well Jane Tanner is obviously not well acquainted with even the basics as her inclusion in the pre-shelving Panorama shows.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on April 23, 2016, 08:07:20 PM
Their fund was down to its last £750,000 in October, with few new cash donations coming in. The Home Office this month stepped in to provide £95,000 to maintain it for six months.
I still think we should have a thread for mistakes-the-media-has-made.
Let me see. McCanns 'ring-fence' 75 G for search. OG funding is announced as 95K for 6 months. Roll it up without worrying about the details, and suddenly the Home Office has contributed 95K to the McCann fund. It's no wonder it is hard to get to the truth.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2016, 09:09:02 PM
I still think we should have a thread for mistakes-the-media-has-made.
Let me see. McCanns 'ring-fence' 75 G for search. OG funding is announced as 95K for 6 months. Roll it up without worrying about the details, and suddenly the Home Office has contributed 95K to the McCann fund. It's no wonder it is hard to get to the truth.
what about a thread for the mistakes amaral has made....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 23, 2016, 09:11:25 PM
Their fund was down to its last £750,000 in October, with few new cash donations coming in. The Home Office this month stepped in to provide £95,000 to maintain it for six months.
Oh dear, the Sun still cant get the staff, lol
Woops, sorry Mercury, I'm still about 5 pages behind.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on April 24, 2016, 06:55:31 AM
Mod:
In reporting posts, in order to prevent escalation of hostilities please make no comment about having made the report. This can be seen as goading.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 24, 2016, 07:23:16 AM
In reporting posts, in order to prevent escalation of hostilities please make no comment about having made the report. This can be seen as goading.
Perish the very suggestion that mods might make goading posts (such post 1639 of this thread) and all this genuflecting to these revered and esteemed moderators (whom John insists we must revere and adore is giving me fearful backache) ....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on April 24, 2016, 07:26:24 AM
Perish the very suggestion that mods might make goading posts (such post 1639 of this thread) and all this genuflecting to these revered and esteemed moderators (whom John insists we must revere and adore is giving me fearful backache) ....
You obviously still missed the point of the post.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 24, 2016, 07:36:19 AM
Following this latest court decision, how much money is left in gofundmejusticegoncalo?
Probably enough. That's why they closed it and said 'Thank you very much, we have enough for our needs'. I don't think you will ever hear a similar statement from the other party.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 24, 2016, 07:50:32 AM
Beyond doubt, huge swathes of his book and (I'm sure) his documentary (which I confess I've not seen) are factual inaccuracies, that denigrate, traduce and malign Kate and Gerry McCann.
The McCanns are innocent of anything culpable in the disappearance of their daughter.
The Portuguese prosecutors did not even find the 'neglect' allegation to be sustained (even though, I think, they underestimated the frequency of checks).
Woke and wandered (as a possible explanation of Madeleine's disappearance) was explored by the shelved investigation and dismissed.
Parental involvement (in anything culpable) was emphatically dismissed.
And yet Amaral has accused the McCanns:
Of knowing Madeleine is dead
Killing Madeleine (but before Stephen25000 gets excited) not murdering her.
Of transporting Madeleine dead to Huelva in Spain in the Renault Scenic.
Launching a fraudulent fund in their 'dead' daughter's name.
He has manipulated and twisted the reports of Mark Harrison
He has (almost certainly) misrepresented and maligned Stuart Prior.
He has twisted, mangled and misrepresented facts of an investigation he was allowed to head up for far too long.
And now he seems on the brink of being allowed to once more profit from these lies by resuming sale of his book.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 24, 2016, 07:59:51 AM
Beyond doubt, huge swathes of his book and (I'm sure) his documentary (which I confess I've not seen) are factual inaccuracies, that denigrate, traduce and malign Kate and Gerry McCann.
The McCanns are innocent of anything culpable in the disappearance of their daughter.
The Portuguese prosecutors did not even find the 'neglect' allegation to be sustained (even though, I think, they underestimated the frequency of checks).
Woke and wandered (as a possible explanation of Madeleine's disappearance) was explored by the shelved investigation and dismissed.
Parental involvement (in anything culpable) was emphatically dismissed.
And yet Amaral has accused the McCanns:
Of knowing Madeleine is dead
Killing Madeleine (but before Stephen25000 gets excited) not murdering her.
Of transporting Madeleine dead to Huelva in Spain in the Renault Scenic.
Launching a fraudulent fund in their 'dead' daughter's name.
He has manipulated and twisted the reports of Mark Harrison
He has (almost certainly) misrepresented and maligned Stuart Prior.
He has twisted, mangled and misrepresented facts of an investigation he was allowed to head up for far too long.
And now he seems on the brink of being allowed to once more profit from these lies by resuming sale of his book.
Apart from your fellow supporters ferryman, you repeated mantra is wasted.
People viewing the forum can look at the evidence themselves, and now they know that members of the SY team have donated to Amaral's fund.................
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 24, 2016, 08:17:49 AM
In reporting posts, in order to prevent escalation of hostilities please make no comment about having made the report. This can be seen as goading.
rather than addressing the victims of abusive posts could you address those who are making repeated abusive posts who now see the small amount of points against them as a badge of honour....Admin has clearly asked goading posts to stop and is clearly being ignored.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 24, 2016, 08:20:56 AM
any reports on the portuguese tv programme featuring amaral last night
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 24, 2016, 08:25:51 AM
Apart from your fellow supporters ferryman, you repeated mantra is wasted.
People viewing the forum can look at the evidence themselves, and now they know that members of the SY team have donated to Amaral's fund.................
i don't think we do know that SY members contributed...it is just a claim by a disgraced alcoholic former british ambassador
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 24, 2016, 08:29:49 AM
Beyond doubt, huge swathes of his book and (I'm sure) his documentary (which I confess I've not seen) are factual inaccuracies, that denigrate, traduce and malign Kate and Gerry McCann.
The McCanns are innocent of anything culpable in the disappearance of their daughter.
The Portuguese prosecutors did not even find the 'neglect' allegation to be sustained (even though, I think, they underestimated the frequency of checks).
Woke and wandered (as a possible explanation of Madeleine's disappearance) was explored by the shelved investigation and dismissed.
Parental involvement (in anything culpable) was emphatically dismissed.
And yet Amaral has accused the McCanns:
Of knowing Madeleine is dead
Killing Madeleine (but before Stephen25000 gets excited) not murdering her.
Of transporting Madeleine dead to Huelva in Spain in the Renault Scenic.
Launching a fraudulent fund in their 'dead' daughter's name.
He has manipulated and twisted the reports of Mark Harrison
He has (almost certainly) misrepresented and maligned Stuart Prior.
He has twisted, mangled and misrepresented facts of an investigation he was allowed to head up for far too long.
And now he seems on the brink of being allowed to once more profit from these lies by resuming sale of his book.
Perhaps he suffered from an inaccurate memory like the McCanns and their mates? Perhaps the book/files weren't properly translated? Perhaps being denigrated, traduced and maligned by the UK media didn't help?
Those who understand the language, including the judge in the lower court, didn't pick up on your list;
28. (Items 27 & 28) It is proved that the facts in the book and in the documentary, concerning the investigation, are mostly facts that took place in the investigation and are documented as such.
You can complain all you like, but it won't make an iota of difference. The Portuguese Judiciary are all agreed that he used the information in the official files to write his book and make the documentary.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 24, 2016, 08:42:00 AM
If the court case had been here instead of Portugal, the McCann's would have won as his book is libellous. How do you feel about that? Or is it ok to say that the McCann's would have been found negligent in the Uk for leaving their children.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 24, 2016, 08:42:15 AM
Perhaps he suffered from an inaccurate memory like the McCanns and their mates? Perhaps the book/files weren't properly translated? Perhaps being denigrated, traduced and maligned by the UK media didn't help?
Those who understand the language, including the judge in the lower court, didn't pick up on your list;
28. (Items 27 & 28) It is proved that the facts in the book and in the documentary, concerning the investigation, are mostly facts that took place in the investigation and are documented as such.
You can complain all you like, but it won't make an iota of difference. The Portuguese Judiciary are all agreed that he used the information in the official files to write his book and make the documentary.
Think you might be quoting from Anne Guides again.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 24, 2016, 08:43:28 AM
If the court case had been here instead of Portugal, the McCann's would have won as his book is libellous. How do you feel about that? Or is it ok to say that the McCann's would have been found negligent in the Uk for leaving their children.
In the UK the mccanns would have been arrested for what they did.
Get a grip lace.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 24, 2016, 08:43:36 AM
In the UK the mccanns would have been arrested for what they did.
Get a grip lace.
you really should stop posting your opinion as fact...the mccanns would not have been arrested...baby listining services are still alive and well...fact
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 24, 2016, 08:46:22 AM
you really should stop posting your opinion as fact...the mccanns would not have been arrested...baby listining services are still alive and well...fact
You really should spend some time in the real world.
They would have been arrested.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 24, 2016, 08:47:25 AM
You really should spend some time in the real world.
They would have been arrested.
i watched the GA interview online i cant understand portugese but there were lots of videos and pictures including the dogs GA was smiling and happy the whole time ?{)(**
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 24, 2016, 08:52:02 AM
In the UK the mccanns would have been arrested for what they did.
Get a grip lace.
So with the McCann's leaving the children alone, the British law is correct, with Amaral and his Libel the Portuguse are correct, selective aren't we Stephen.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 24, 2016, 09:04:42 AM
So with the McCann's leaving the children alone, the British law is correct, with Amaral and his Libel the Portuguse are correct, selective aren't we Stephen.
Your getting very upset.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 24, 2016, 09:19:17 AM
you really should stop posting your opinion as fact...the mccanns would not have been arrested...baby listining services are still alive and well...fact
I think the 'listening service' arguments are untested. If a child is ever hurt while being 'listened to' it may well turn out that the parents are still held responsible. I have been unable to discover if those offering this service are taking full responsibility for the safety of the child or not. Anyone using them would be well advised to check on that.
So, to get back to the McCanns. If they nipped to the pub for a meal in Rothley, leaving three children under 5 alone in an unlocked residence are you assuming that the Police would have said 'That's fine, you were popping back every half hour, nothing wrong with that'?
A father has told how his decision to leave his two-year-old daughter alone in the car for 10 minutes while he nipped to a nearby shop to buy Calpol almost led to his children being taken into care. Tim Haines, a family law advocate, was arrested and prosecuted for “wilful exposure of a child to risk of significant harm” and faced a year-long battle to stop his five children being taken into care. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11249091/Father-prosecuted-after-leaving-daughter-in-car-for-ten-minutes.html
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 24, 2016, 09:22:18 AM
I think the 'listening service' arguments are untested. If a child is ever hurt while being 'listened to' it may well turn out that the parents are still held responsible. I have been unable to discover if those offering this service are taking full responsibility for the safety of the child or not. Anyone using them would be well advised to check on that.
So, to get back to the McCanns. If they nipped to the pub for a meal in Rothley, leaving three children under 5 alone in an unlocked residence are you assuming that the Police would have said 'That's fine, you were popping back every half hour, nothing wrong with that'?
A father has told how his decision to leave his two-year-old daughter alone in the car for 10 minutes while he nipped to a nearby shop to buy Calpol almost led to his children being taken into care. Tim Haines, a family law advocate, was arrested and prosecuted for “wilful exposure of a child to risk of significant harm” and faced a year-long battle to stop his five children being taken into care. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11249091/Father-prosecuted-after-leaving-daughter-in-car-for-ten-minutes.html
I agree its untested and that is why stephen cannot claim they would have been arrested
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 24, 2016, 09:23:25 AM
I think the 'listening service' arguments are untested. If a child is ever hurt while being 'listened to' it may well turn out that the parents are still held responsible. I have been unable to discover if those offering this service are taking full responsibility for the safety of the child or not. Anyone using them would be well advised to check on that.
So, to get back to the McCanns. If they nipped to the pub for a meal in Rothley, leaving three children under 5 alone in an unlocked residence are you assuming that the Police would have said 'That's fine, you were popping back every half hour, nothing wrong with that'?
A father has told how his decision to leave his two-year-old daughter alone in the car for 10 minutes while he nipped to a nearby shop to buy Calpol almost led to his children being taken into care. Tim Haines, a family law advocate, was arrested and prosecuted for “wilful exposure of a child to risk of significant harm” and faced a year-long battle to stop his five children being taken into care. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11249091/Father-prosecuted-after-leaving-daughter-in-car-for-ten-minutes.html
Yes, good old British justice, Amaral would have lost his case here in the UK. So which justice do you support G-Unit?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 24, 2016, 10:11:59 AM
Yes, good old British justice, Amaral would have lost his case here in the UK. So which justice do you support G-Unit?
That's a big question, Lace. In a perfect world we would all agree on what justice is and how to achieve it. We don't live in a perfect world though; all judicial systems have faults. You can't condemn a country's system as a whole just because you don't agree with one of their decisions. Neither can you praise a country's system because you agree with another of their decisions. The supporters have done both in regard to Portugal.
The best any country can do, it seems, is to set up a system of laws, a police force to enforce them and a judiciary to judge cases brought before them. The system should be free of political interference and influence. After that you cross your fingers and hope. My opinion is that anyone with any sense will avoid getting embroiled in any legal system if at all possible. If you choose to go to law you have to accept that you may lose. If you use all the resources and appeals available and still lose you have to accept that the law as it stands can't help you.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 24, 2016, 10:12:57 AM
i have no problem with that...the forum used to be a free for all..it isn't now...admin wants the forum to be more civilised and I am all for that.....trying to justify repeated personal attacks by what is perceived to have happened in the past isn't going to work
Have you ever apologized to the people you have insulted ?
Even once ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 24, 2016, 10:18:58 AM
I agree its untested and that is why stephen cannot claim they would have been arrested
It is indeed, but the group didn't use a listening service so it's irrelevant. If the McCanns had done the same in Rothley as they did in Portugal I think they would have been in trouble had the police been called.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 24, 2016, 10:24:37 AM
That's a big question, Lace. In a perfect world we would all agree on what justice is and how to achieve it. We don't live in a perfect world though; all judicial systems have faults. You can't condemn a country's system as a whole just because you don't agree with one of their decisions. Neither can you praise a country's system because you agree with another of their decisions. The supporters have done both in regard to Portugal.
The best any country can do, it seems, is to set up a system of laws, a police force to enforce them and a judiciary to judge cases brought before them. The system should be free of political interference and influence. After that you cross your fingers and hope. My opinion is that anyone with any sense will avoid getting embroiled in any legal system if at all possible. If you choose to go to law you have to accept that you may lose. If you use all the resources and appeals available and still lose you have to accept that the law as it stands can't help you.
Well said 8((()*/
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 24, 2016, 10:28:39 AM
That's a big question, Lace. In a perfect world we would all agree on what justice is and how to achieve it. We don't live in a perfect world though; all judicial systems have faults. You can't condemn a country's system as a whole just because you don't agree with one of their decisions. Neither can you praise a country's system because you agree with another of their decisions. The supporters have done both in regard to Portugal.
The best any country can do, it seems, is to set up a system of laws, a police force to enforce them and a judiciary to judge cases brought before them. The system should be free of political interference and influence. After that you cross your fingers and hope. My opinion is that anyone with any sense will avoid getting embroiled in any legal system if at all possible. If you choose to go to law you have to accept that you may lose. If you use all the resources and appeals available and still lose you have to accept that the law as it stands can't help you.
amaral said he would exhaust all legal avenues...you cannot blame the mccanns for doing the same...ECHR
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 24, 2016, 11:17:36 AM
Yes, good old British justice, Amaral would have lost his case here in the UK. So which justice do you support G-Unit?
True, up until 2013 UK had the most draconian libel laws. Libel tourism was rife as a result. Our defamation laws received a major overhaul in 2013. Sr Amaral however was not tried in the UK, his appeal was heard under Portuguese law where the plaintiffs took the action. Amarals appeal was upheld under the system the plaintiffs sued under. As a point of interest the US Defamation Laws favour the defendant under the First Amendment.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 24, 2016, 11:25:29 AM
True, up until 2013 UK had the most draconian libel laws. Libel tourism was rife as a result. Our defamation laws received a major overhaul in 2013. Sr Amaral however was not tried in the UK, his appeal was heard under Portuguese law where the plaintiffs took the action. Amarals appeal was upheld under the system the plaintiffs sued under. As a point of interest the US Defamation Laws favour the defendant under the First Amendment.
Up until 2013 be damned.
Under identical circumstances today Amaral would be blown out of the water under English libel law certainly, (I'm pretty confident) under the laws of any country of the United Kingdom.
This decision (in favour of Amaral) is a disgrace.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 24, 2016, 11:50:18 AM
amaral said he would exhaust all legal avenues...you cannot blame the mccanns for doing the same...ECHR
Let's see what the Supreme Court have to say first, shall we? Despite the excited headlines, no-one has said anyone is actually going to the ECHR as yet. Duarte was asked and said;
When asked whether it could go all the way to Strasbourg, she replied: “Of course. I don’t know if that will happen but it is possible.”
Under identical circumstances today Amaral would be blown out of the water under English libel law certainly, (I'm pretty confident) under the laws of any country of the United Kingdom.
This decision (in favour of Amaral) is a disgrace.
The mccanns are the disgrace ferryman.
Not Amaral.
No Twisting will change that that.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 24, 2016, 12:20:07 PM
No translation yet.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 24, 2016, 12:23:30 PM
Should be good for a few thousand posts and a number of apoplectic fits on here when a translation does become available. 8(>((
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: xtina on April 24, 2016, 12:42:06 PM
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: xtina on April 24, 2016, 12:45:03 PM
This is the full transcription Of last night's interview with Goncalo Amaral on Tv Anchor - After CMTV screened a reconstitution about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, there were many reactions, that multiplied themselves, mainly because of the various contradictions in the witnesses’ statements.
Voiceover – The case dates back to the 3rd of May of 2007. Six years later, several inconsistencies and contradictions are counted, which contribute to the mystery surrounding the disappearance of Madeleine. After the screening of CMTV’s reconstruction relating to the little girl’s disappearance, there were many reactions that multiplied themselves, mainly about the various contradictions that were raised. One of the inconsistencies has to do with the time of the visit that was done by a friend of the McCann couple. David Payne would have met Gerry at 6.30 p.m., and only afterwards went to see Kate. Until today, it is not known how long the visit took: According to Gerry, Payne was at the location for over half an hour; according to Kate, the visit lasted little over 30 seconds. Gonçalo Amaral – This is a figure that, I use to say, that is enigmatic, and who was not well investigated. Not a lot is known about this person. Voiceover – A mysterious man with a profile that is linked to indications of inadequate behaviours towards children. He even used to bathe the daughters of the friends that he spent holidays with. To CMTV, Gonçalo Amaral and Francisco Moita Flores, former Judiciary Police inspectors, state that this is one of the gaps in the process. Moita Flores – It is strange, in a group of friends, that one friend bathes the other friends’ children. And that all of this is natural, and nobody questions this from the investigation’s point of view. Gonçalo Amaral – What weight did it have in the disappearance, if it had any weight at all, and what was going on there with that individual. One is this one, the 30 minutes or the 30 seconds, what he went there to do. The other one is the fact that he always cared to bathe the other people’s daughters. Voiceover – There is even a concrete episode, which took place on the island of Mallorca, in 2005. David Payne, in the company of Gerry McCann, would have been seen making obscene gestures, while referring to Maddie. Gonçalo Amaral – Then there is the other moment, that of the obscene gestures he made, in Spain, in Mallorca, where there is a denunciation in May 2007, ten days after the disappearance, by another doctor, who was also on holidays, who knows him and tells the English police about said obscene gestures in the presence of the father. Voiceover – For Eduardo Dâmaso, joint editor at Correio da Manhã, these indications should have been explored. Eduardo Dâmaso – All of those indications are much stronger to explore, that enigma that is installed within that group, than the thesis of the abductor. The feeling that I have is – Voiceover – Some statements by Gerry McCann are also contradictory. To the police, Maddie’s father told different versions about the way that he entered the Ocean Club apartment at 9 p.m. In a first statement, Gerry said he had entered through the front door; later, he changed the statement and said he had entered through the back window. Despite everything, the key was inside the apartment. For the former Judiciary Police inspector Carlos Anjos, the change in the depositions is an attempt by Gerry to adjust to the facts. Carlos Anjos – I think he has no certainty whatsoever. That is the big problem. And hence the difficulty, the contradictions they had, all of the contradictions they had, which were verbalised when they gave statements, even the changing of depositions… We at the police use to say that when the depositions start to be changed, it’s an attempt by the witness to adjust the deposition to the fact. Voiceover – Another inconsistency has to do with the visit of another friend of the couple to the Ocean Club apartment. Matthew Oldfield entered the room, looked to where Maddie and her siblings were. Later on, he said he wasn’t sure whether or not the little girl was in the apartment. Eduardo Dâmaso – We return to another aspect which, from my point of view, proves that all the indications that exist, which point towards an enigma that is installed within that group, is much stronger than what exists about the possibility of an abduction. Voiceover – Another question that remains unanswered is the place where Gerry was at 10 p.m. Two Tapas Bar employees said that Gerry was not at the restaurant. According to Gonçalo Amaral, there are only three moments that the authorities are able to locate in time. This is not one of them. Gonçalo Amaral – As far as accurate times are concerned, there are only three: The time at which they pick up Maddie from the crèche, which is at 5.30 p.m., the time of the payment at the restaurant by the Irish family, which is at 9.22 or 9.27 p.m., and the time of the phone call to GNR, which is at 10.47 p.m. From there on, nothing is certain. Voiceover - Contributing to the mystery of Gerry’s location at 10 p.m., a statement from a family of Irish tourists, four adults and five children, appears. According to the Smiths, that evening, the family left Kelly’s Bar and headed home at around 10 p.m. Five minutes later, Kate raises the alarm to the disappearance. At the same time, the family crosses ways with a man that carried a blonde child, aged approximately four, wearing a pink pyjama. Martin Smith, one of the group’s members, gives the police a detailed description. Four months later, already in the United Kingdom, the Smith family sees images of Gerry McCann carrying one of his children. When he sees the image on television, Martin remembers the same man that he had seen in Praia da, Luz. The denunciation was made to the Judiciary Police and the PJ decides to bring him to Portugal. At that time, Gonçalo Amaral, the coordinator, is removed from the investigation, and the new coordinator, Paulo Rebelo, considers that the trip of the Irishman to Portugal is useless. Six years later, Gonçalo Amaral remains certain that it is important to listen to the witnesses’ statement. Gonçalo Amaral – It makes all kind of sense to even bring him, and the family, it’s 3 or 4 people more, to Portugal, even to understand how long they took after leaving the Dolphins restaurant, how long they remained in Kelly’s bar, because there is no payment, the payment was not made with a card, we found out the exact time of the payment, not the exit from the restaurant, through the payment, because the payment was made with a bank card. At the bar, it was made in cash, so we don’t know. We don’t know how long they took having their drinks. We don’t know at what time the sighting takes place. It would have been around ten, a bit earlier, a bit later, at around that time, we don’t know exactly at what time it was. Voiceover – For the former Judiciary Police inspector, the question of the e-fit that appeared at the time ended up taking importance away from the deposition. Gonçalo Amaral – This family, which is not only one person, says that the person that they saw that night is a certain person. They say it is. Then they say it’s 80%. And then the e-fit – someone appears that looks like a certain person. While they never said it was a person that looked like Gerald McCann. The e-fit has that effect, the effect of evaluating the statement itself. Voiceover – These are contradictions and inconsistencies that remain unanswered to this day. And adding to all of these questions, a new issue appears That of the crime of exposure or abandonment [child endangerment], that would have been committed by Kate and Gerry McCann when they left Maddie alone during the night. Moita Flores – You can be absolutely certain that if this couple was Portuguese, the Public Ministry would have immediately triggered the child protection measures against them. Have no doubts about that. Because in our culture, this is not reasonable nor explainable. And I don’t know if I can even be explained under the light of the Anglo-Saxon culture. Rui Pereira – At the beginning, the McCanns were obviously suspected of a crime of exposure of abandonment. Obviously. It is evident that it was not easy to make them arguidos right away. Why? Because investigators are also human. And the most immediate sentiment that was experienced was that of a certain compassion towards the parents. Moita Flores – I understand, with some effort, but I understand that it’s a cultural trait that is different from ours, to leave children far away from the place where we are, and to enjoy ourselves until midnight, from 8.30, 9 p.m. until midnight. I find this hard to believe, for our Latin culture, in which the children are very directly controlled, I find this very difficult. Voiceover – For Carlos Anjos, all the participants in the case tried to find a way not to be implicated in this crime. Carlos Anjos – They all knew that they were at stake because of exposure and abandonment, and all of them somehow tried to find a story that would not harm them much, that would not mistreat them much in that situation. Voiceover – These are reactions that are raised after the exhibition of CMTV’s reconstruction about the disappearance of Maddie. A job that was never done by the Portuguese police. Gonçalo Amaral – The reconstruction was never done because one awaited the best moment. At the time when everything happened, one thought about the reconstruction, which is normal in such a situation. There were many journalists in Praia da, Luz, it was not convenient to do it at that time, due to the apparatus and the spectacle that would be given, it was almost as someone said, necessary to close the airspace to make a reconstruction. Moita Flores – This was decisive. And I don’t know how the police could do it, I understand the difficulties of this media circus that was built there, but it would have been necessary and decisive. Because as can be seen from this reconstruction, and one understands that it follows the statements from the participants in the process, one realises that it is full of contradictions. Voiceover – For Francisco Moita Flores, the reconstitution by CMTV is more accurate than the one that was shown by the English Crimewatch programme. Moita Flores – What CMTV just did, I saw the reconstitution that was made by Crimewatch and this one, and one understands that it is like day and night, in terms of accuracy. Gonçalo Amaral – One has more red wine and the other one shows empty glasses. Moita Flores – This one has the wine, it has the party, it has the disposition of the people, it has the relationship with the physical space, which is important. Voiceover – These are reactions that appear after the exhibition of the reconstitution of the moments before and after the disappearance of Madeleine, a case that still prompts much discussion. Carlos Anjos – This is the most verified case that I can recall in the history of criminal investigation. Countless CDs were made, they were distributed to all of the newspapers, to all of the detective agencies, to all of the policemen. And one thing is objective at this moment in time, just like Gonçalo said: Today we are exactly the same as when the case was closed. This is to say that we are, today, just like we were in 2007. The entire investigative community, that read the process from beginning to end, possibly all of us read it already, there was nobody who said – some have said that this or that could be done, but those are diligences that could hardly have any other result than the one that is there [in the case files]. Voiceover – The doubts remain. The uncertainties about what really happened to Madeleine McCann remain.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 24, 2016, 12:49:56 PM
I thought the program was an hour long? If so that can't be a full transcript
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 24, 2016, 01:07:13 PM
Thank you for posting the video's Pathfinder.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 24, 2016, 01:08:43 PM
@Xtina, there appears to be some doubt as to whether that was indeed last night's interview. Could you provide a source, please?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: xtina on April 24, 2016, 01:09:28 PM
I thought the program was an hour long? If so that can't be a full transcript
Breaking Down The News Sunday, 24 April 2016
This is the full transcription Of last night's interview with Goncalo Amaral on Tv Anchor - After CMTV screened a reconstitution about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, there were many reactions, that multiplied themselves, mainly because of the various contradictions in the witnesses’ statements.
this is what it said ..full translation..............posted it because the link to it doesn't seem to work all what was printed is there apart from ....rules of the comments
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ChloeR on April 24, 2016, 01:11:32 PM
Just read through all of the new posts and something seems to be repeated a lot. If the Mccanns lose their case, it seems they have not had a 'fair' hearing. While if they win it is suddenly described as 'fair'. How on earth does this work? How fair courts and such are rests on what outcomes they give to the people involved in cases?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 24, 2016, 01:12:52 PM
Just read through all of the new posts and something seems to be repeated a lot. If the Mccanns lose their case, it seems they have not had a 'fair' hearing. While if they win it is suddenly described as 'fair'. How on earth does this work? How fair courts and such are rests on what outcomes they give to the people involved in cases?
It sometimes pays to view this as a soccer match. The present argument is between two sides debating a refs decision on a handball by one side and an offside by the other. One's good the other is bad 8(0(*
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 24, 2016, 01:17:36 PM
This is the full transcription Of last night's interview with Goncalo Amaral on Tv Anchor - After CMTV screened a reconstitution about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, there were many reactions, that multiplied themselves, mainly because of the various contradictions in the witnesses’ statements.
this is what it said ..full translation..............posted it because the link to it doesn't seem to work all what was printed is there apart from ....rules of the comments
Thanks, that would explain it. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 24, 2016, 01:18:30 PM
This is the full transcription Of last night's interview with Goncalo Amaral on Tv Anchor - After CMTV screened a reconstitution about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, there were many reactions, that multiplied themselves, mainly because of the various contradictions in the witnesses’ statements.
this is what it said ..full translation..............posted it because the link to it doesn't seem to work all what was printed is there apart from ....rules of the comments
Try this 2013 link. http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/11/cmtv-maddie-case-special-and-rua-segura.html
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 24, 2016, 01:25:10 PM
This is the full transcription Of last night's interview with Goncalo Amaral on Tv Anchor - After CMTV screened a reconstitution about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, there were many reactions, that multiplied themselves, mainly because of the various contradictions in the witnesses’ statements.
this is what it said ..full translation..............posted it because the link to it doesn't seem to work all what was printed is there apart from ....rules of the comments
It may well be a full transcription... but of which of GA's numerous TV appearances?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 24, 2016, 01:29:25 PM
This translation of a transcript doesn't appear to correspond to the videos that PF posted.
It doesn't.
The clue is in the early part that goes "Voiceover – The case dates back to the 3rd of May of 2007. Six years later ..." so the transcript is from 2013, not 2016.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 24, 2016, 01:35:33 PM
Isabel Oliveira: 3 shadows of people seen going to the church during night with a bag . There was a coffin in the church with an old lady that was incinerated next day in Ferreira do Alentejo. This is in a police document
its a link i was sent ...as lasts nights....so it seems wrong one .....sorry
oh well ..worse than when i said may had only 30 days @)(++(*
Not sure. Will have to think about that one ... @)(++(*
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 24, 2016, 02:04:18 PM
"Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.
By Sergio A. Vitorino, Tania Laranjo
Gonçalo Amaral, former coordinator of the Judicial investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in May 2007, in the Algarve, of course: "With the failure of all research and millions spent, we just wanted to discredit our line of research [ Maddie died accidentally and parents hid the body], it is time to refocus the investigation.
Gonçalo Amaral said yesterday the CM that is now in Portugal, "start with the reconstruction that was never made and the laboratory analysis of evidence that was never truly analyzed, as the hair in the trunk of the car where Madeleine fluids were found."
The investigator in the reform states that it is necessary to follow leads as the "incineration Madeleine's body in a coffin of a British súbdita" and access to medical records of the girl in the UK, which has never been allowed.
"Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.
By Sergio A. Vitorino, Tania Laranjo
Gonçalo Amaral, former coordinator of the Judicial investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in May 2007, in the Algarve, of course: "With the failure of all research and millions spent, we just wanted to discredit our line of research [ Maddie died accidentally and parents hid the body], it is time to refocus the investigation.
Gonçalo Amaral said yesterday the CM that is now in Portugal, "start with the reconstruction that was never made and the laboratory analysis of evidence that was never truly analyzed, as the hair in the trunk of the car where Madeleine fluids were found."
The investigator in the reform states that it is necessary to follow leads as the "incineration Madeleine's body in a coffin of a British súbdita" and access to medical records of the girl in the UK, which has never been allowed.
Have you ever apologized to the people you have insulted ?
Even once ?
I have only insulted those who have insulted me...such as you...would you like to star a new thread called "things to criticse davel for"...perhaps better to just give it a rest
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 24, 2016, 02:54:02 PM
Just read through all of the new posts and something seems to be repeated a lot. If the Mccanns lose their case, it seems they have not had a 'fair' hearing. While if they win it is suddenly described as 'fair'. How on earth does this work? How fair courts and such are rests on what outcomes they give to the people involved in cases?
quite simply the recent court decision has ignored the mccanns rights under article 10 of the EDHR....that is unfair...if the supreme court ignore them...then that is again unfair...that is a legitimate opinion to hold...imo
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 24, 2016, 03:12:37 PM
quite simply the recent court decision has ignored the mccanns rights under article 10 of the EDHR....that is unfair...if the supreme court ignore them...then that is again unfair...that is a legitimate opinion to hold...imo
You're entitled to hold any opinion you like, just as the McCanns are. Opinions don't make any difference to the decisions of the Portuguese Judiciary; they deal with the application of the law.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 24, 2016, 04:20:53 PM
I think a few members here might have something to say if unproven accusations that were being lever at them were deemed to be perfectly acceptable in law. But it seems it is in Portugal.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 24, 2016, 04:32:08 PM
I think a few members here might have something to say if unproven accusations that were being lever at them were deemed to be perfectly acceptable in law. But it seems it is in Portugal.
Quite frankly, if it's acceptable in law, then there's not much you can say.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 24, 2016, 05:30:10 PM
"Investigate the cremated body thesis" Gonçalo Amaral calls for analysis and reconstruction.
By Sergio A. Vitorino, Tania Laranjo
Gonçalo Amaral, former coordinator of the Judicial investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in May 2007, in the Algarve, of course: "With the failure of all research and millions spent, we just wanted to discredit our line of research [ Maddie died accidentally and parents hid the body], it is time to refocus the investigation.
Gonçalo Amaral said yesterday the CM that is now in Portugal, "start with the reconstruction that was never made and the laboratory analysis of evidence that was never truly analyzed, as the hair in the trunk of the car where Madeleine fluids were found."
The investigator in the reform states that it is necessary to follow leads as the "incineration Madeleine's body in a coffin of a British súbdita" and access to medical records of the girl in the UK, which has never been allowed.
I think a few members here might have something to say if unproven accusations that were being lever at them were deemed to be perfectly acceptable in law. But it seems it is in Portugal.
The judge of the lower court said Amaral's book would have been OK if an ordinary person had written it. Her judgement was not about the contents of the book, it was about his rights and duties as an ex policeman. The appeal judges disagreed with her interpretation of the laws relating to ex policemen. She chose the grounds and was defeated. I'm sure she would have used the contents of the book as her battleground if she could, clearly she didn't think it was an option.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 24, 2016, 08:39:36 PM
Short transcript on this topic from CMTV special, "Maddie, the Mystery"
Anchor João Ferreira - I would like for you to tell us in detail your explanation for the disappearance of the body, you have a thesis..
Gonçalo Amaral - No, I don't have one.
Anchor - ... in this book...
Gonçalo Amaral - No, in that book there isn't anything concerning what we just saw me saying on the news piece that was shown. Because these are elements, these are information that appeared afterwards and were never investigated. It's just an hypothesis, and when considering that hypothesis...
Anchor - An hypothesis that Madeleine's body could have been hidden, could have been incinerated, right?
Gonçalo Amaral - There's an information here, in the police, that mentions that. That in a night, three figures were seen carrying a bag, entering the church...
Anchor - In the Praia da Luz church.
Gonçalo Amaral - In that church was a coffin of a woman, a woman from the United Kingdom...
Anchor - Of a British woman.
Gonçalo Amaral - ... and in the following day that coffin was transferred to Ferreira do Alentejo to be incinerated. But no one is saying that the parents did that, or saying who did that. It's something that someone who is on the field investigating has to ascertain, must investigate thoroughly.
Anchor - But you concede that hypothesis, that possibility of Madeleine's cadaver being taken to the church, and then incinerated is a plausible hypothesis...
Gonçalo Amaral - We're practically starting by the end, first is the disappearance, if you allow me to explain, to explain to the viewers... [overlapping speech]
Anchor - I'll allow you, but just so not to lose this train of thought, is this hypothesis plausible for you?
Gonçalo Amaral - It is plausible, and I say plausible in this sense, that that body would fit underneath the cadaver that was already there.
Anchor - And it would fit?
Gonçalo Amaral - It would, yes. At the time, when I was already out of the Judiciary Police I obtained the opinion of people that dealt with that, of funeral agencies, and they said that it was a possibility. It's an opinion that is not officialized but it's a possibility. If it happened like that or not, we don't know, there are several hypotheses to make a body disappear.
Not sure but a month was mentioned so SAT 2 June 2007 is a possibility when there were strange ping gaps. I've posted all about that weekend on the private forum.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 24, 2016, 09:13:37 PM
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 24, 2016, 09:51:14 PM
Thanks for that short transcript.
In other words, he doesn't know any more than anyone else does (aside from whoever took her out of that flat).
I still don't see how this fits with stories of non-missing pink blankets, a non-existent blue tennis bag, non-existent gory stuff in the Scenic, dumped at sea, stored in some complicit stranger's freezer and then back to being cremated under some dear old soul back in PdL without anyone noticing.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 24, 2016, 09:55:14 PM
In other words, he doesn't know any more than anyone else does (aside from whoever took her out of that flat).
I still don't see how this fits with stories of non-missing pink blankets, non-existent gory stuff in the Scenic, dumped at sea, stored in some complicit stranger's freezer and then back to being cremated under some dear old soul back in PdL without anyone noticing.
Somebody did notice and it would be late at night. Only somebody with their own key could enter.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 24, 2016, 09:59:02 PM
A bagful of bibles obviously. Why else do you carry a bag into church at night? Maybe it was the 3 burglars sneaking in after they got hold of the key.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 25, 2016, 01:12:11 AM
sorry if already posted http://portugalresident.com/amaral%E2%80%99s-libel-win-opens-pandora%E2%80%99s-box-on-national-television
A new ‘mood’ has emerged following the successful appeal by former PJ inspector Gonçalo Amaral against €500,000 libel damages awarded to the parents of missing Madeleine McCann.
For the first time “serious figures” formerly connected to the government and PJ are questioning the political pressures that effectively shut-down the original Portuguese investigation - allowing nothing to move forwards other than the abduction theory.
Without naming names or pointing fingers, it is clear that Amaral’s victorious return from the cold of litigation has paved the way for less-than-habitually-guarded discussion.
While here CMTV screened a four-way interview late on Saturday night which threw up the issue of ‘plausible leads’ nipped in the bud in the early days - as they simply did not fit with the abduction profile - in Edinburgh former ambassador and human rights activist Craig Murray has weighed onto the scene, outlining the sort of pressure with which Portugal had to contend.
“I am going to come straight out with this”, he wrote in a post following news of Amaral’s appeal court win. “British diplomatic staff were under direct instruction to support the McCanns far beyond the usual and to put pressure on the Portuguese authorities over the case.
“I have direct information that more than one of those diplomatic staff found the McCanns less than convincing and their stories inconsistent. Embassy staff were perturbed to be ordered that British authorities were to be present at every contact between the McCanns and Portuguese police.
“This again is absolutely not the norm. On a daily basis more British citizens have contact with foreign authorities than the total staff of the FCO (Foreign and Commonwealth Office). It would be simply impossible to give that level of support to everybody”.
John Buck, Murray’s direct boss in the FCO when he was head of Cyprus Section, was the British ambassador in Portugal when three-year-old Madeleine went missing in May, 2007.
“He and his staff were concerned by contradictions in the McCann’s story”, Murray continues. “The Embassy warned, in writing, that being perceived as too close to the McCanns might not prove wise. They demanded the instruction from London be reconfirmed. It was.”
Murray’s post does not dwell on the reasons for this “far beyond usual” support, but he concedes “that it might have put some psychological pressure on the Portuguese investigators and prosecuting officers in their determinations”.
Talking on CMTV in the early hours of Sunday morning, former PJ director Manuel Rodrigues left little doubt that it had.
In a one-hour “special” which went out between 11.30 and 12.40, Rodrigues and former Minister for Internal Administration Rui Pereira both lamented British interference which, Rodrigues concedes, may ensure that “blame” in this apparently unsolvable nine-year-old mystery “dies a spinster”.
Why a faithful reconstruction of the night of Madeleine’s disappearance was never achieved he still does not know, he explained.
“Someone stopped it. Don’t ask me to name names. We have already talked about all the assistance the (McCann) couple received from people directly connected with the British government. We have talked about the British government and the British police. I can’t interpret it any other way”.
Rodrigues referred to the “pure ingenuousness” of Portuguese authorities, allowing forensic tests on evidence recovered to be allowed to take place in a British laboratory so that there was no whiff of uncertainty.
In the first report, 15 alleles out of 19 that made up Madeleine’s DNA appeared, he said.
Then, in a second report, all the alleles had “disappeared completely”.
Amaral too had his moment to outline some the ‘plausible hypotheses’ that emerged in the early days as his team shifted its focus from the likelihood of an abduction.
A late-night sighting of three figures entering Luz church with a large bag coincided with the existence of a coffin inside the church, he said, into which Madeleine’s body could have been placed.
The coffin - holding the remains of an elderly British resident - was taken the following day for cremation in the Alentejo.
Amaral stressed nonetheless that the book ‘Maddie: The Truth of the Lie’ that the McCanns have sought to ban is not ‘his truth’ - nor indeed factual truth - but the opinion of the PJ in September of 2007 when it became clear their efforts were about to be archived.
Since that time - and even when Scotland Yard became involved in 2011 and vowed to ‘peel back the layers’ of the mystery as if peeling an onion - none of those original lines of investigation have ever been revisited, resulting in the situation in which millions of pounds have been spent getting nowhere, or as Amaral put it: “going down a one-way street”.
That the four-way interview went out at such a late hour suggests CMTV is still being careful about how it presents this case, but Amaral’s ‘victory’ for freedom of expression would appear to have lifted the lid on a Pandora’s Box shut tight from mainstream media for almost nine years.
In UK, the Sun leaked a lurid colour page promising an exposé on “Maddie Cop’s Sick Secret” on Sunday morning.
It turned out to be nothing more than the rehash of an ‘Amaral-bashing’ story by the Express a year before in which British people donating to his legal expenses were tarnished as ‘online trolls’.
But it served to highlight that ‘pressure’ in Britain to stick to the abduction theory and demonise everything else could still be at work
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 25, 2016, 07:49:33 AM
sorry if already posted http://portugalresident.com/amaral%E2%80%99s-libel-win-opens-pandora%E2%80%99s-box-on-national-television
A new ‘mood’ has emerged following the successful appeal by former PJ inspector Gonçalo Amaral against €500,000 libel damages awarded to the parents of missing Madeleine McCann.
For the first time “serious figures” formerly connected to the government and PJ are questioning the political pressures that effectively shut-down the original Portuguese investigation - allowing nothing to move forwards other than the abduction theory.
Without naming names or pointing fingers, it is clear that Amaral’s victorious return from the cold of litigation has paved the way for less-than-habitually-guarded discussion.
While here CMTV screened a four-way interview late on Saturday night which threw up the issue of ‘plausible leads’ nipped in the bud in the early days - as they simply did not fit with the abduction profile - in Edinburgh former ambassador and human rights activist Craig Murray has weighed onto the scene, outlining the sort of pressure with which Portugal had to contend.
“I am going to come straight out with this”, he wrote in a post following news of Amaral’s appeal court win. “British diplomatic staff were under direct instruction to support the McCanns far beyond the usual and to put pressure on the Portuguese authorities over the case.
“I have direct information that more than one of those diplomatic staff found the McCanns less than convincing and their stories inconsistent. Embassy staff were perturbed to be ordered that British authorities were to be present at every contact between the McCanns and Portuguese police.
“This again is absolutely not the norm. On a daily basis more British citizens have contact with foreign authorities than the total staff of the FCO (Foreign and Commonwealth Office). It would be simply impossible to give that level of support to everybody”.
John Buck, Murray’s direct boss in the FCO when he was head of Cyprus Section, was the British ambassador in Portugal when three-year-old Madeleine went missing in May, 2007.
“He and his staff were concerned by contradictions in the McCann’s story”, Murray continues. “The Embassy warned, in writing, that being perceived as too close to the McCanns might not prove wise. They demanded the instruction from London be reconfirmed. It was.”
Murray’s post does not dwell on the reasons for this “far beyond usual” support, but he concedes “that it might have put some psychological pressure on the Portuguese investigators and prosecuting officers in their determinations”.
Talking on CMTV in the early hours of Sunday morning, former PJ director Manuel Rodrigues left little doubt that it had.
In a one-hour “special” which went out between 11.30 and 12.40, Rodrigues and former Minister for Internal Administration Rui Pereira both lamented British interference which, Rodrigues concedes, may ensure that “blame” in this apparently unsolvable nine-year-old mystery “dies a spinster”.
Why a faithful reconstruction of the night of Madeleine’s disappearance was never achieved he still does not know, he explained.
“Someone stopped it. Don’t ask me to name names. We have already talked about all the assistance the (McCann) couple received from people directly connected with the British government. We have talked about the British government and the British police. I can’t interpret it any other way”.
Rodrigues referred to the “pure ingenuousness” of Portuguese authorities, allowing forensic tests on evidence recovered to be allowed to take place in a British laboratory so that there was no whiff of uncertainty.
In the first report, 15 alleles out of 19 that made up Madeleine’s DNA appeared, he said.
Then, in a second report, all the alleles had “disappeared completely”.
Amaral too had his moment to outline some the ‘plausible hypotheses’ that emerged in the early days as his team shifted its focus from the likelihood of an abduction.
A late-night sighting of three figures entering Luz church with a large bag coincided with the existence of a coffin inside the church, he said, into which Madeleine’s body could have been placed.
The coffin - holding the remains of an elderly British resident - was taken the following day for cremation in the Alentejo.
Amaral stressed nonetheless that the book ‘Maddie: The Truth of the Lie’ that the McCanns have sought to ban is not ‘his truth’ - nor indeed factual truth - but the opinion of the PJ in September of 2007 when it became clear their efforts were about to be archived.
Since that time - and even when Scotland Yard became involved in 2011 and vowed to ‘peel back the layers’ of the mystery as if peeling an onion - none of those original lines of investigation have ever been revisited, resulting in the situation in which millions of pounds have been spent getting nowhere, or as Amaral put it: “going down a one-way street”.
That the four-way interview went out at such a late hour suggests CMTV is still being careful about how it presents this case, but Amaral’s ‘victory’ for freedom of expression would appear to have lifted the lid on a Pandora’s Box shut tight from mainstream media for almost nine years.
In UK, the Sun leaked a lurid colour page promising an exposé on “Maddie Cop’s Sick Secret” on Sunday morning.
It turned out to be nothing more than the rehash of an ‘Amaral-bashing’ story by the Express a year before in which British people donating to his legal expenses were tarnished as ‘online trolls’.
But it served to highlight that ‘pressure’ in Britain to stick to the abduction theory and demonise everything else could still be at work
so Craig Murray is being promoted as an ex ambassador to give the story some credibility...when in reality he is the disgraced sacked ex ambassador with no credibility...and then we have the claim that the 15 alleles disappeared...more lies from the amaral camp.....
why has amaral changed his tune and is now saying that the TOTL is actually NOT the factual truth
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 25, 2016, 07:53:11 AM
so Craig Murray is being promoted as an ex ambassador to give the story some credibility...when in reality he is the disgraced sacked ex ambassador with no credibility...and then we have the claim that the 15 alleles disappeared...more lies from the amaral camp
Dear oh dear.
Classic mccann supporter tactics.
Unfortunately dave, he's telling the truth.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 25, 2016, 08:28:07 AM
neither of you have been able to contradict any of the facts in my post and once again resort to personal comments...par for the course...
Of course the Mccanns had help from the embassy .....if anyone hasn't noticed this was a very unusual case...a 3 yr old missing abroad...how often does that happen.
One of the most interesting points in that interview is amaral now saying his book is NOT factual...that is quite an astonishing statement and something of a climb down
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 25, 2016, 08:31:45 AM
neither of you have been able to contradict any of the facts in my post and once again resort to personal comments...par for the course...
Of course the Mccanns had help from the embassy .....if anyone hasn't noticed this was a very unusual case...a 3 yr old missing abroad...how often does that happen.
One of the most interesting points in that interview is amaral now saying his book is NOT factual...that is quite an astonishing statement and something of a climb down
What is more important, is that you cannot prove that Murray is wrong in his assertions.
and you will say anything to counteract the statement he has made.
End of discussion.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 25, 2016, 08:50:55 AM
isnt GA book comiming back on the shelf today ??
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: parapono on April 25, 2016, 08:55:58 AM
are you from australia like me?? it is ANZAC day today here but GA is in portugal so his book is coming out sometime this week
Yep, sometime this week I hope. And nope, the Netherlands. We have our 'Kingsday' on Wednesday. Sending my regards.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 25, 2016, 10:06:34 AM
To all members.
It is noticeable that the equilibrium of the forum has been somewhat disturbed since the McCann v Amaral appeal decision from Lisbon was announced. This is to be expected and has left moderators with a substantial amount of work to do cleaning up the threads. This will now STOP!
I am putting everyone on notice from this point on that continued disruption, goading, abuse or any conduct contrary to the forum rules will now be met with sanctions including temporary bans. Please take heed of this warning.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 25, 2016, 10:35:43 AM
It is merely a personal attack on the man and nothing else.
Madeleine's case seems to attract an eclectic mix of people ... some more interesting than others.
If any one associated with the McCanns had such a documented colourful background or maybe even a parking ticket, I think there might have been more than a word or two said about it.
If someone sets themselves up as a pundit in a particular area of expertise ... they must expect their qualification to do so checked for suitability and credibility.
I was very impressed with his CV as detailed on his blog (all apparently true, by the way) but it seems some people did not progress beyond that and check not what was in his CV but rather what was omitted.
Glad he's on your side ... glad he's not on mine, personable and all as he seems to be.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 25, 2016, 11:22:19 AM
Madeleine's case seems to attract an eclectic mix of people ... some more interesting than others.
If any one associated with the McCanns had such a documented colourful background or maybe even a parking ticket, I think there might have been more than a word or two said about it.
If someone sets themselves up as a pundit in a particular area of expertise ... they must expect their qualification to do so checked for suitability and credibility.
I was very impressed with his CV as detailed on his blog (all apparently true, by the way) but it seems some people did not progress beyond that and check not what was in his CV but rather what was omitted.
Glad he's on your side ... glad he's not on mine, personable and all as he seems to be.
You do realize Brietta, that the information he conveyed was largely already known ?
and almost needless to say, your views on the mccann case will bias your viewpoint.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 25, 2016, 11:27:06 AM
The dis-information he disseminated (in copious quantities) was unheard of (outside his book) until it was released for sale.
Incorrect.
Read earlier posts.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 25, 2016, 11:35:45 AM
One thing that puzzles me - perhaps the more learned amongst you know - is why was the book published in Spain? Was it deemed too libellous by Portuguese publishers?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 25, 2016, 11:46:03 AM
Now we know why the decision was delayed by several months...
From the Portugal Resident.
Picking up the story, the Daily Mail managed to speak to McCann defence lawyer Isabel Duarte who said both she and her clients were “obviously disappointed”.
Duarte added however that she was not surprised, as “one of the judges ruled in favour of a previous appeal overturning a ban on the book”.
Indeed, McCann lawyers tried to remove this judge (Catarina Manso), altogether. A legal source has calculated that the shenanigans “cost some two months of time, which explains why this decision took so long”.
No one "knew" (until they read Amaral's book) that Amaral had contradicted and corrected Staurt Prior on interpretation of the forensic results, or that Prior (then) rang the FSS to berate them on the subject of the PJ's powers of arrest (for example).
I distinctly remember reading a press report of the (admirable) judge who handed down the first-instance judgement grilling Amaral (or was it a witness on Amaral's behalf, I can't remember) of his claims of 'revelations' in Amaral's book (supposedly, a record of a historical event).
hmmmmm!
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 25, 2016, 12:00:02 PM
One thing that puzzles me - perhaps the more learned amongst you know - is why was the book published in Spain? Was it deemed too libellous by Portuguese publishers?
Could the reason be in recognition of the breach of judicial secrecy laws by Portuguese publishers or the author himself?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 25, 2016, 12:08:25 PM
Debate panel from left to right: Tânia Laranjo, CM journalist; Manuel Rodrigues, former PJ inspector; João Ferreira, CMTV news anchor; Gonçalo amaral, former PJ inspector & Rui Pereira, former Minister of Internal Affairs
Anchor João Ferreira - This special by CMTV 'Maddie, the Mystery', is going to focus on the book that I hold in my hands: "Maddie, the Truth of the Lie". It was written by Gonçalo Amaral, former Judiciary Police (PJ) coordinator. The man that was at the forefront of the investigation during the first months of the case, a case that has been dragging on for the past nine years. It's the book where Gonçalo Amaral reveals his truth about the mystery of the Maddie Case, a truth for which he was removed from the investigation and the reason why he requested an early retirement from the Judiciary Police (PJ), after 26 years of service. A truth, according to which the little girl died accidentally. Following that death, an unwanted and accidental death, the parents concealed their own daughter's cadaver. This is the truth that we are going to analyse in this special, where the man that wrote this book - and has just been acquitted by the Appeals court of Lisbon and absolved of having to pay a compensation of 500,000 euro to the McCann couple - will break the silence. A special where we are going to ask uncomfortable questions to Gonçalo Amaral, where we will confront his truth with other possible truths. Right now, let us have a look to the truth revealed in this book that is now allowed to see the light of day.
News Segment 1
Kate McCann (archive footage 2007) - (in Portuguese) Please, give our little girl back. (in English) Please, give our little girl back.
Voice Over Mónica Palma (VO)- Abduction, defend the McCanns. Accident and concealment of the cadaver is the belief of Gonçalo Amaral.
Gonçalo Amaral (archive footage 2014) - If Madeleine McCann is truly dead, I doubt the body still exists. In that church there was a coffin with the cadaver of an elderly British lady which in the following day was going to Ferreira do Alentejo to be cremated. It was possible for the body of a child of that age and size to be concealed underneath that cadaver.
Voice Over - After six months of investigation, the former PJ inspector is removed from the Maddie Case, and this is one of the issues that was the object of his reflection. In the book that Gonçalo Amaral published, "Maddie, The Truth of the Lie", there is a chapter dedicated to that topic: the removal of a coordinator from an investigation, conspiracy or subservience?, questions the former PJ inspector. And it is precisely due to the 220 pages written by Amaral and a DVD with a documentary about Maddie, that the PJ inspector became the target of a lawsuit, a legal process that has been dragging for numerous years. In 2009, the McCann couple went to justice, demanding from Gonçalo Amaral a compensation of 1,2 million euro. The McCanns considered the publication and the documentary defamatory, they alleged to have suffered moral damages. The British couple considered that their rights, liberties and guarantees of the family were violated. The defence of the McCann family considered that Gonçalo Amaral could not have revealed information that appeared in the process of the investigation to Madeleine's disappearance. The defence also alleged that the book was ready three days after the prosecutor of Portimão, Magalhães e Menezes, redacted the dispatch that archived the process against the McCann couple, which had the date of 29 of July of 2008. In the book, the former criminal investigation coordinator of the PJ, Gonçalo Amaral, defends the thesis that Maddie's parents were involved in the disappearance and in the concealment of the 3-year-old girl's body. The McCann's defence lawyer, Isabel Duarte, argued that the author, Gonçalo Amaral, used unauthorized documents from the process, documents that were prohibited. This was a process that dragged in court for years, with successive postponements of court sessions and an attempt to an extra-judicial settlement between the parties, which never came into fruition.
Kate McCann (archive footage, press conference 2014) - We took on this case because of the pain and distress that Mr. Amaral has brought to us and our children. Gerry McCann - We want to get justice for Madeleine.
Voice Over - In January 2015, the civil court, ended up condemning Gonçalo Amaral to pay to each one of the members of the McCann couple, Kate and Gerry, the amount of 250,000 euro. 250,000 euro plus interest, counting back from January 5 of 2010. Besides this payment, the civil court also decreed the prohibition of sales of new editions of the book and DVD, as well as the negotiations to transfer the copyright of both book and documentary. Gonçalo Amaral appealed, and there was a turnaround in this process. The Court of Appeals of Lisbon ruled in favour of the PJ inspector and revoked the sentence. The judges understood that Amaral acted within the framework of the legitimate right to exercise an opinion. The court considered the facts presented in the book and DVD, were, some of them, divulged by the McCanns themselves in numerous interviews all over the world. Gonçalo Amaral will not have to pay the indemnification of 250,000 euro to each member of the McCann couple. Gonçalo Amaral's book will soon return to the bookshops, however, Kate and Gerry have already stated that they will appeal to the Supreme Court of Justice. Kate and Gerry, who have always maintained that Madeleine was abducted, were constituted as arguidos (suspects) in September 2007, but were cleared in July 2008 for lack of evidence to sustain the hypothesis advanced by the investigation to the alleged accidental death of the little girl. Maddie, disappeared on May 3, 2007, just a few days before of her fourth birthday. The English girl disappeared from this apartment (image of apartment is shown) in Praia da Luz, in the Algarve, where she was sleeping along with her younger twin siblings.
Anchor João Ferreira - In the studio, in this special, we have Gonçalo Amaral, former PJ coordinator; Rui Pereira, CMTV commentator and Minister of Internal Affairs at the time of Maddie's disappearance; Manuel Rodrigues, former chief inspector of the Judiciary Police and also a CMTV commentator and Tânia Laranjo, Correio da Manhã and CMTV journalist, who followed closely the investigations to the Maddie case. Good-evening gentlemen, good-evening madam, it's a pleasure to be here with you all. Gonçalo Amaral, I'll start with you, good-evening, thank you for being here.
Gonçalo Amaral - Good-evening, thank you for the invitation.
Anchor João Ferreira - Did this investigation destroy your career?
Gonçalo Amaral - No, it interrupted my career. I had a dignified professional path in terms of work and progress in the hierarchy, I was an officer, an inspector, then chief-inspector, then I was a coordinator and could have gone a bit further, in fact at the time of the disappearance, when the case happened, I had applied for the role of superior coordinator of the Judiciary Police, it was a matter of time. So, that was the interruption, the life change, the career change, if I had stayed maybe I could have been in another professional position.
Anchor - Do you feel like a victim of the circumstances?
Gonçalo Amaral - No, I never considered myself as a victim then nor now. I felt at a certain point in time and this was part of the reasons that motivated me to write the book, that there was a full campaign of defamation and insults. A campaign that is likely to begin again given the court result, I have no doubts that it may happen again. That is usual under the circumstances associated with this case. So, I was a target of that. I requested at the time, I almost demanded it in fact, that is, demand between inverted commas, for the Judiciary Police direction to come out in our defence. Not only in my defence, but in the defence of all the officers that were working on the case and were called names such as drunks, alcoholics, of being lazy, incompetents, and so on. There were intrusions on our private lives, we were under surveillance, a series of things. Nothing was done about that. Then I begun to understand that the process was going to be archived, a conversation on that subject took place and it was then that I decided that it was enough. There was a preceding moment where I went to Faro (PJ headquarters)...
Anchor - After you were removed from the investigation?
Gonçalo Amaral - Yes, removed from the direction, from being the officer in charge of Portimão. I thought that everything would end there, but no, the attacks went on. I asked at that time to Dr. Alípio Ribeiro, to send me to...
Anchor - The National Director of the Judiciary Police?
Gonçalo Amaral - Yes, he was the director of the Judiciary Police. I asked him to let me go to the Azores, so I could regain some peace. I wanted to get away of these issues. They understood that I should stay and do my job in Faro, there I stayed, things went on until I've decided to.. I couldn't stand it any longer.
Anchor - But you asked to the Direction of the Judiciary Police to write this book? To reveal your truth?
Gonçalo Amaral - Yes, it does have to do with that. There was a problem, either I would write the book and stay in the Judiciary, and then the Judiciary would be liable or I could leave the Judiciary and anything that might happen would be on me. So, I set the Judiciary Police aside of the problem, and I left the Judiciary Police in order to regain the plenitude of my rights.
Anchor - Did Alípio Ribeiro pull the rug from under your feet?
Gonçalo Amaral - No, he did not. No one pulled the rug from under anyone's feet. There were a series of circumstances that lead to this outcome. A colleague of mine is present here today, and he knows that it's very unlikely for the PJ's direction to defend its men. Maybe with another director, I'm recalling Dr. Marques Vidal - to whom I express my gratitude for his support since the very outset, right from when the book was published, he presented the book - maybe it would have been different, maybe the protection of the officers would have been another. But Dr. Marques Vidal was an unique case, a director of the Judiciary Police that we will never have again.
Anchor - A leader more brave than others?
Gonçalo Amaral - He had a great understanding of the officers, he was a very humane man, and defended those that risked, that worked at times almost without a net, he was there, present. I could tell you several stories, from the time of the Cavacos, the support that Dr. Marques Vidal gave to the men on the ground. These are facts that can be verified, but we're digressing from the topic. I would like to add, that I have nothing against Dr. Alípio Ribeiro.
Anchor - But do you think that Alípio Ribeiro didn't resist the pressures?
Gonçalo Amaral - No, no, I believe that... For example, in this issue of requesting to the Direction of the PJ to speak in our defence or to allow me to speak, I wrote a letter addressed to the directorate of the Judiciary Police, addressed to Dr. Alípio Ribeiro. Later, I learned that that letter never reached his hands, he never read it. The letter stopped at his assistants, therefore I can't accuse him of anything, it's not his fault, it's the fault of the structural machine that exists, additionally the PJ direction does not usually come out in defence of its officers. Note that we're talking about the direction of the Judiciary Police but we could equally talk about the ASFIC (Association of the Criminal Investigation Officers of the Criminal Police), I ask - what did ASFIC do for the officers, for its members, that were on the field, then and after? For example, right now, until now, what did they do? Has ASFIC direction, at any time - regarding myself, a retired officer with success on the work I did - ever called me? Either to congratulate, at this point in time or whatever. Nothing at all.
Anchor - Why do you think is that, Gonçalo?
Gonçalo Amaral - Maybe it's our culture, of the Portuguese, who knows? Maybe because I'm no longer in the police, have nothing to do with the PJ.
Anchor - Are you saying that there is fear from the people in the Judiciary to come out in your defence?
Gonçalo Amaral - I wouldn't say fear. I find it strange, a very odd situation. Those who have congratulated me at this point in time, for this decision - a decision that has not yet been rendered final, and may still be the target of an appeal - but those who have congratulated me were colleagues that are retired, not colleagues in active functions. Not even a single colleague on the active congratulated me. On the other hand, I had the support of colleagues in the active from the British police, who also have been present along the years.
Anchor - Let us move now to your truth, the truth that is here in this book...
Gonçalo Amaral - Well, that is another issue. That is not my truth...
Anchor - It's the factual truth.
Gonçalo Amaral - Not even that, that book represents the elements of the Judiciary Police...
Anchor - So, it's the material truth of the Judiciary Police?
Gonçalo Amaral - We could even say that the book is the opinion of the Judiciary Police until September 2007. Not my truth alone.
Anchor - And that opinion, Gonçalo Amaral, describes a scenario where the little girl Maddie suffered an accidental death...
Gonçalo Amaral - That is what is described in the PJ report written by the Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida.
Anchor - ...a death unwanted by the parents and in face of that death the parents concealed the cadaver.
Gonçalo Amaral - Yes, there was an infringement. What that means is...
Anchor - So, for you Gonçalo the parents should be behind bars? Should they be punished for these crimes?
Broadcast by CMTV, S16 EP20, CM Special: Maddie, the Mystery, April 23, 2016 - first draft
Now we know why the decision was delayed by several months...
From the Portugal Resident.
Picking up the story, the Daily Mail managed to speak to McCann defence lawyer Isabel Duarte who said both she and her clients were “obviously disappointed”.
Duarte added however that she was not surprised, as “one of the judges ruled in favour of a previous appeal overturning a ban on the book”.
Indeed, McCann lawyers tried to remove this judge (Catarina Manso), altogether. A legal source has calculated that the shenanigans “cost some two months of time, which explains why this decision took so long”.
I find this astonishing, not only have they managed to deflect the investigation and pay off the Press but they wanted to influence the judiciary too??
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: xtina on April 25, 2016, 12:52:32 PM
I find this astonishing, not only have they managed to deflect the investigation and pay off the Press but they wanted to influence the judiciary too??
exactly .exactly...
and yet they are suppose to have nothing to hide ......as if.
didn't they also complain about G A ...wasting time .....they really do think they are a law unto themselves.... ....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ChloeR on April 25, 2016, 12:56:56 PM
Gonçalo Amaral - Well, that is another issue. That is not my truth...
Anchor - It's the factual truth.
Gonçalo Amaral - Not even that, that book represents the elements of the Judiciary Police...
I thought these comments were interesting...he is now saying...the "Truth" is not the factual truth
I read the book, a long time ago but I did. I don't recall him ever putting it across as this is the facts of what happened.
He may have another view himself, the book was outlining the police investigation, how it began as investigating abduction, changed due to whatever reasons that came up, and how they (PJ) came to the theory of parental involvement in concealing a corpse.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 25, 2016, 12:59:42 PM
I find this astonishing, not only have they managed to deflect the investigation and pay off the Press but they wanted to influence the judiciary too??
They wanted a level playing field & not one resembling a footie match with a ref appointed by Paulo Cristovao.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 25, 2016, 01:05:09 PM
The dis-information he disseminated (in copious quantities) was unheard of (outside his book) until it was released for sale.
Amaral's book is based on the information publicly available in the original investigation's interim report including contributions from UK police officers.......... Nothing more, nothing less..
k mccs book ....... sold very well along with the serialisation in this paper's added revenue and the thing is. Either much of her book's content is dishonest or her witness statements are.
they turned what happened to maddie........... into a global brand.....and a business ....there business ...using the fund money for themselves .......paying for lawyers ...etc etc ......this was well sorted very early on
....
remember his brother giving up a very well payed job ...to be on the team ...so knew he was in for the long haul ...not that maddie could have been found anytime......
Both are there in black and white. One version is free minus the parts she refused to answer. The other cost's around eight quid,.....
The one that will be there for the twins to read,....... which they certainly will............
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 25, 2016, 03:53:30 PM
I find this astonishing, not only have they managed to deflect the investigation and pay off the Press but they wanted to influence the judiciary too??
A legal source has calculated?
Amaral's lawyer?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 25, 2016, 04:13:06 PM
Amaral's book is based on the information publicly available in the original investigation's interim report including contributions from UK police officers.......... Nothing more, nothing less..
From the interim report Yes, although I'm unsure which UK officers you have in mind?
The interim report was superseded by Joao Carlos' final PJ report and, of course, by the archiving dispatch.[/color]
k mccs book ....... sold very well along with the serialisation in this paper's added revenue and the thing is. Either much of her book's content is dishonest or her witness statements are.
Think you might be confusing fallible memory-recall (particularly from one person to another with 'lies'.No doubt identical statements would give rise to allegations of 'collusion and cover-up'.
they turned what happened to maddie........... into a global brand.....and a business ....there business ...using the fund money for themselves .......paying for lawyers ...etc etc ......this was well sorted very early on
I'll grant that they made one mortgage repayment (from the fund). What else (spent on themselves?
....
remember his brother giving up a very well paid job ...to be on the team ...so knew he was in for the long haul ...not that maddie could have been found anytime......
Re-interpret that gesture as one of philanthropy for a brother (and sister-in-law) in need, an act of selflessness in a family cause. Do you think he'd have done that if he thought Kate and Gerry guilty?
Both are there in black and white. One version is free minus the parts she refused to answer. The other cost's around eight quid,.....
The one that will be there for the twins to read,....... which they certainly will............
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: xtina on April 25, 2016, 05:58:53 PM
i think you will find 2 mortgage payments .............what did they spend on themselves .try the expensive top lawyers ...and flights travelling rfround Europe ...etc etc ..
i think you will find 2 mortgage payments .............what did they spend on themselves .try the expensive top lawyers ...and flights travelling rfround Europe ...etc etc ..
(snip) ...and flights travelling rfround Europe ...etc (snip)
Mr Green provided free of charge the luxury private jet for Clarence and the couple to search the Vatican. Netjets provided free of charge the luxury private jet for the same trio to search Berlin and Amsterdam. One of the Oprah companies paid for the flights for the same trio to search Chicago. Meanwhile the number of completely unnecessary flights by Mr Amaral was: Zero.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 25, 2016, 07:42:05 PM
Mr Green provided free of charge the luxury private jet for Clarence and the couple to search the Vatican. Netjets provided free of charge the luxury private jet for the same trio to search Berlin and Amsterdam. One of the Oprah companies paid for the flights for the same trio to search Chicago. Meanwhile the number of completely unnecessary flights by Mr Amaral was: Zero.
They weren't searching, they were 'raising awareness' so others could search.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 25, 2016, 07:52:45 PM
I would say they have managed to produce the biggest search in the history of a missing child and I for one admire and respect them for it
Especially against the backdrop of what was said about the search (and about their role in events leading up to that search) by the person who (initially) coordinated the investigation ....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 25, 2016, 07:59:31 PM
I would say they have managed to produce the biggest search in the history of a missing child and I for one admire and respect them for it
Mr Amaral completely failed to fly to the Vatican in a luxury private jet to raise awareness of the search, therefore Mitchell and the couple were reluctantly forced to do it themselves.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 25, 2016, 08:46:12 PM
I would say they have managed to produce the biggest search in the history of a missing child and I for one admire and respect them for it
The 'search' they triggered had no structure and no direction. It was exactly the same as the 'chicken with it's head cut off' search by their friends. People all over the world reported sightings which were clearly not Madeleine. It was ill-advised and not useful. It completely swamped the authorities and hampered the investigation in my opinion. I see nothing there to justify admiration or respect.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 25, 2016, 09:00:57 PM
The 'search' they triggered had no structure and no direction. It was exactly the same as the 'chicken with it's head cut off' search by their friends. People all over the world reported sightings which were clearly not Madeleine. It was ill-advised and not useful. It completely swamped the authorities and hampered the investigation in my opinion. I see nothing there to justify admiration or respect.
The headless chicken was the PJ I see a lot to be admired with Kate and Gerry but it's down to personal opinions
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 25, 2016, 09:08:21 PM
Very interesting, first trial judge gets a bit of a pasting plus lots of reference to complying with ECHR.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 26, 2016, 09:09:41 AM
84. Sean and Amelie McCann went to school in August 2010 but have not yet have any knowledge of the defendant Gonçalo Amaral’s theory, also referred in the same number .
so all the emotional blackmail from supporters about sean and amelie being harrased etc is just that?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 26, 2016, 12:10:46 PM
Debate panel from left to right: Tânia Laranjo, CM journalist; Manuel Rodrigues, former PJ inspector; João Ferreira, CMTV news anchor; Gonçalo amaral, former PJ inspector & Rui Pereira, former Minister of Internal Affairs
Next Part.......
Anchor - So, for you Gonçalo the parents should be behind bars? Should they be punished for these crimes?
Gonçalo Amaral - No, no, it doesn't have to do with that. For us to read and understand that book, we also have to understand the moment, the progress of the investigation. And we need to understand that an investigations as a beginning, a middle and an end, as my colleague Moita Flores says an investigation is always zigzagging and he's right about that. At that point in time of the investigation, when the archival was decided, the archival was decided in early October of 2007... Whomever lead the process after me, was there to adjust the process so it could be archived. Any colleague of mine can see that it is the adjustment of the process so it can be archived; all of us have at some point in time archived processes when reaching a dead end and we all know what to do so no investigative leads are left unfinished. So, at that point in time of the investigation that was the line of reasoning of the Judiciary Police. Not my line of reasoning alone, it's of the whole team, of the Judiciary Police as an institution. I will go further, after that, nothing was done concerning that line of investigation that...
Anchor - Of the accidental death.
Gonçalo Amaral - ...we can say, of the probable responsibility of the parents in the mysterious disappearance of the child, with all that entails, but this is the essential. Yet, that line of investigation was set aside. Even the Scotland Yard investigation and so on, never explored that line of investigation, and now they've reached a dead end. They constituted, derided in my opinion, - this is what this is all about, opinion and freedom of expression - in my opinion as coordinator, as an investigator, that increase, that creation of numerous arguidos was a derision of that institution. There were two or three arguidos - the English didn't even know the meaning of arguidos was - and they decided to constitute even more arguidos, and now we have an ocean of arguidos. Before we had a few drops and now we have an ocean where virtually nothing can be seen, a way to bury, to obscure.
Anchor - I would like for you to tell us in detail your explanation for the disappearance of the body, you have a thesis..
Gonçalo Amaral - No, I don't have one.
Anchor - ... in this book...
Gonçalo Amaral - No, in that book there isn't anything concerning what we just saw me saying on the news piece that was shown. Because these are elements, these are information that appeared afterwards and were never investigated. It's just an hypothesis, and when considering that hypothesis...
Anchor - An hypothesis that Madeleine's body could have been hidden, could have been incinerated, right?
Gonçalo Amaral - There's an information here, in the police, that mentions that. That in a night, three figures were seen carrying a bag, entering the church...
Anchor - In the Praia da Luz church.
Gonçalo Amaral - In that church was a coffin of a woman, a woman from the United Kingdom...
Anchor - Of a British woman.
Gonçalo Amaral - ... and in the following day that coffin was transferred to Ferreira do Alentejo to be incinerated. But no one is saying that the parents did that, or saying who did that. It's something that someone who is on the field investigating has to ascertain, must investigate thoroughly.
Anchor - But you concede that hypothesis, that possibility of Madeleine's cadaver being taken to the church, and then incinerated is a plausible hypothesis...
Gonçalo Amaral - We're practically starting by the end, first is the disappearance, if you allow me to explain, to explain to the viewers... [overlapping speech]
Anchor - I'll allow you, but just so not to lose this train of thought, is this hypothesis plausible for you?
Gonçalo Amaral - It is plausible, and I say plausible in this sense, that that body would fit underneath the cadaver that was already there.
Anchor - And it would fit?
Gonçalo Amaral - It would, yes. At the time, when I was already out of the Judiciary Police I obtained the opinion of people that dealt with that, of funeral agencies, and they said that it was a possibility. It's an opinion that is not officialized but it's a possibility. If it happened like that or not, we don't know, there are several hypotheses to make a body disappear.
Anchor - Let's go back to the beginning then Gonçalo, on the disappearance. What are the indications, post-disappearance that helped construct the material truth that appears here in the book?
Gonçalo Amaral - Nine years have passed, I would have to look at the book pages and explain them to you in detail. There were several indicia, the contradictions, the discrepancies in the statements of those people, other witness statements that said they saw the father carrying the child at a certain hour, there are a series of indications that point towards that. To give you a full report on that would be tiresome, I believe most people know or are already aware. That was talked about numerous times throughout years. So, indicia and some evidence, evidence in inverted commas, concerning the vestiges that were collected and sent to the English forensics laboratory for analyses, it is said that there could have been a manipulation of all that data, it's still not clear what happened. I recall that before we had the official report, we had a preliminary report which indicated that the fluids found in the car rented a month after the disappearance belonged to Madeleine McCann. And when the report arrived, it was no longer like that. It was said at the time that the profile with a series of alleles matched Madeleine's, yet they said that anyone in that laboratory could have contributed to that profile. So, why did it match to Madeleine's, and not, say to the US president profile? There's something very strange about that analysis, something that should be questioned, verified, investigated. I believe that when forensic analyses are done, the laboratory technician has to keep a record of what he is doing. I don't know if that was destroyed or not, but it should exist along side the report.
Anchor - Of course. Gonçalo Amaral before I'll return to you, let us now pay close attention to the next news segment. The disappearance of Madeleine Mccann was since the start embroiled in mystery. Maddie disappeared in Praia da Luz, in the Algarve on May 3, 2007, a few days before her fourth day. Let us now watch a reconstitution of that fateful Thursday.
Reconstruction segment*
Images of the crime scene, inside and outside apartment 5A, appear on the screen; also of Madeleine McCann and her twin brother and sister, followed by the caption “Where is Maddie?” – then the programme starts.
Voice Over Rui Pando Gomes - On that Thursday of the 3rd of May, 2007, the McCanns’ decide not go to the beach with the other three couples – their friends. Instead, Gerry and Kate spend their day at the Ocean Club.
That day, the couple never leaves the holiday compound but, even so, they do not keep their children with them. Maddie aged three, and the twins Amelie and Sean, aged two, spend their day at the Ocean Club’s crèche (the children’s day care centre).
At 9:10 AM, Gerry delivers the children to the crèche.
The crèche staff take the children to the beach. Between 10:30 and 11 hours, Madeleine plays on the beach with other children . Kate collects the children from the crèche at 12:25 and returns them (to the crèche) at 14:50 hours.
A few hours later (around 16:00) Kate is jogging on the beach. At 17:30, she returns to the crèche to pick up her three children and to take them back home to apartment 5A.
At the same time Kate McCann is collecting her children from the crèche, their friends (that is the other three couples) drink on the esplanade (terrace) of the restaurant Paraíso, in Praia da Luz (17:35 hours on the CCTV video caption).
The CCTV cameras of the restaurant capture the presence of the British group in a buoyant mood. Their children are with them. (It looks like) a tranquil (and enjoyable) end to their afternoon.
Short break in the voice-over with more images shown
At exactly 18:13 hours, the men from the group – David Payne, Russell O’Brien and Matthew Oldfield abandon the restaurant and head in the direction of the Ocean Club.
The women, Fiona Payne, Jane Tanner and Rachel Oldfield remain sitting on the (restaurant’s) esplanade. They get up from their chairs at 18:30 hours – about 15 minutes after their husbands who, by then, have already arrived back at the Ocean Club.
At 18:30, David Payne goes to meet Gerry who is (already) playing tennis (on the courts). He asks him where Kate is. Gerry tells him, Kate is in the apartment with the children. David heads towards the apartment.
No one knows for sure how long David stays in the apartment with Kate – his visit is shrouded in mystery.
Gerry McCann says his friend was in his apartment for about half an hour while he played tennis, but Kate McCann says he was not there for more than 30 seconds.
To deepen the mystery further, Fiona Payne attests she accompanied her husband to their friends’ apartment and the couple, both Gerry and Kate, were at home.
One thing seems certain; the (McCanns’) first floor neighbour, Pamela Fenn, saw David Payne, around 19:00 hours, on the McCanns’ balcony.
David Payne will later tell the Judiciary Police (PJ) that he had gone to the apartment “to find out whether Kate needed help with the children” and that he had seen Maddie and the twins there – a moment he had come to remember as “the vision of three immaculate angels.”
Dinner time approaches.
The four couples dine together at the Tapas Restaurant in the Ocean Club – a routine they had followed since their arrival together, on the 28th of April. They do not bring their children with them – a few months old baby and seven young children (toddlers) are left asleep, unattended in their apartments, while their parents, free from care, dine until around midnight; their children well out of their sights.
In the evening of the 3td of May, Gerry and Kate are the first to arrive at the restaurant. The time is 20:35 hours.
The oval table, near the swimming pool, is reserved for the British group. By 20:45 they are all sitting at the table; Gerry and Kate, David and Fiona Payne, Russell O’Brien and Jane Tanner, Matthew and Rachel Oldfield and Dianne Webster – Fiona’s mother.
Kate for example, cannot do without her usual “daiquiri” as an apéritif (a rum cocktail). The group is in the habit of drinking eight bottles of wine – four red and four white (…)
That evening, they ordered grilled fish and meat on the spit. As they sit and dine at the oval table, most have their backs turned against their apartments; (but) even if they were facing the apartments, the wall and the edges (which were in the way) would not allow them to see (the back of) the ground floor apartments where the children are sleeping alone. An opaque, plastic wind-breaker placed between their table and the apartments, further obstructs their vision. Furthermore, the (ground-floor) window of the bedroom where Maddie sleeps, is located on the other side (front) of the apartment block which (obviously) cannot be seen from the restaurant.
The McCanns and their friends, assured the police, they had a scheme of vigilance (an arrangement for checking on the children). Each one of them, in turn, would get up from the table to see if everything was all right (to check on the children).
According to the members of the group, the (checking) rounds took place every half an hour and sometimes, every fifteen minutes.
But the truth is; (exactly) what the group actually did during that dinner – the evening Maddie disappeared – has never been (fully) clarified.
After the authorities were alerted to Maddie’s disappearance, Russell O’Brien provides the police with a schedule of the (checking) rounds done (on the children) that evening. He drafted it himself on the back of a cover he tore off from a children’s book (activities & stickers).
Days later, the police find among Kate’s papers a manuscript (draft) with the hours of the rounds (checking) written on it – except, this differed from the one her friend Russell gave to the PJ.
There are lapses in the memory of the McCanns’ friends (account of events) and (worst) contradictory versions of the same (alleged events). The police never knew with rigour, (with any degree of certainty) the steps (movements) of each of them during that dinner. There are only four moments that coincide; (and these are) the only ones corroborated by witnesses.
At 21:00 hours, two men get up from the table – one is Russell O’Brien; the other Gerry McCann.
They set off to the apartments (ostensibly) to check on their children. In order to reach the apartment, Gerry has to leave the Ocean Club and walk 20 meters of a dimly lit street to reach the small access gate to his apartment.
(After checking on the children and ) on the way back to his dinner, Gerry encounters Jeremy Wilkins, a BBC producer whom he had met during this holiday.
It is now 21:05 hours. Jeremy is strolling, pushing a pram, trying to lull his baby son into sleep. The two men greet each other and chat for a while. The street is deserted.
(Meanwhile) Jane Tanner, the partner of Russell O’Brien, worries about his absence from the (dinner) table and gets up (to look for him).
Later, she assures the police that between 21 and 21:05 hours, she saw a stranger carrying a child in his arms at the (top of) the same narrow street (she was walking up) and on which, at that very same time, Gerry stood chatting with Jeremy. (But) nor Gerry or Jeremy saw anyone passing by, nor even for that matter, noticed Jane Tanner’s presence (walking past them.)
Around 21:30 hours, Gerry returns to the restaurant’s table. Russell had not yet arrived back (from his check). He finally returns close to 22 hours – nearly half an hour after Gerry. Russell explains his older daughter had vomited, that he gave her a bath, changed her clothes and put her back to sleep.
At 21:55 PM, as soon as Russell O’Brien arrives at the restaurant’s table, Kate McCann gets up to check on her children.
Five minutes later, around 22 hours, she shouts from the apartment’s balcony (at the back) facing the restaurant: “They have taken her! They have taken her!” . No one from the group is able to see her. They can only hear her. Then, they all rush towards the (McCanns’) apartment (…)
More images in and around the village of Luz (Light), followed by the caption – “Where is Maddie?” and back to the studio.
Anchor João Ferreira - The investigation to the Maddie case pursued several lines of inquiry. There were political pressures that marked the beginning of the investigation, which, during a first moment, shielded the parents from becoming suspects. Kate's diary, seized a few months later, revealed the whole machinery set up by the family to feed the abduction thesis.
News segment 2
Voice Over Tânia Laranjo - 3 of May of 2007, just a little before midnight the Judiciary Police was alerted, a four-year-old English girl disappeared from a tourist resort in Praia da Luz. The parents dined in a near-by restaurant. It was necessary to proceed with caution, these were doctors, unsuspicious, victims of an abduction, of a hideous crime. Portimão was still living with the hangover of the Joana Case, Leonor Cipriano was condemned but the delay at the start of the investigation turned out to be tragic, the remnants of the little girl were never found. The Judicial condemnation didn't erase the doubts. In Praia da Luz, on that night, moments of tension were felt. When the PJ arrived on the scene, dozens of people had already been inside the apartment. They had contaminated vestiges, moved what could have been evidence, destroyed indicia that no one knows what they could have clarified.
The English government acted swiftly so the parents wouldn't be investigated, to focus on the search for the abductors. Kate's diary, seized a few months later, revealed other pressures. On the morning of the 23rd of May, 20 days after the Maddie's disappearance, before leaving to Fátima's sanctuary, Kate and Gerry left a voice message to Gordon Brown. Maddie's mother described it as a way to increase the political pressure, she disclosed that Tony Blair's successor called back only three hours later. He spoke with Gerry, was very sympathetic and gave them strength, said Kate, who described the visit to the catholic sanctuary as overwhelming, powerful and emotional.
Apart from the contacts with Gordon Brown, Kate's diary also revealed other important allies. From the hiring of Clarence Mitchell as an advisor, who was working for the government at the time, to the conversations with the wife of the former British prime minister, Tony Blair. Mitchell, in fact, had a pivotal role in the propaganda machine that was set up by the McCanns within a few days. They counted on the assistance from the British diplomacy in all the trips that were carried out. The first trip and the one with the most intense media coverage was the trip to Rome. They were received by the Pope Benedict XVI, the trip had been suggested by their advisor on the 27th of May, after speaking to Francis Campbell, the British ambassador at the Vatican. The visit to Rome was described by Kate as being very emotional, positive and important, and that loads of journalists and photographers had appeared, this was an ongoing concern present in the couple's lives. After Rome, Madrid, Berlin, Morocco followed, trips made with the objective to divulge Madeleine's face, followed by visits to consulates or receptions given by British ambassadors or by political representatives of the respective countries.
Amidst all that, was an investigation marked by breakthroughs and setbacks. Kate and Gerry started as victims, four months later Maddie's mother was constituted as an arguida for negligent homicide. The British dogs, requested by the couple, found the little girl's trace inside the boot of the car. A vehicle that was rented after the disappearance, where DNA vestiges were also found which suggested that Maddie had been transported in there. The genetic markers weren't sufficient. The doubts grew, the mystery thickened. Nine years later the narrative of the pressures remain, of a failed investigation, of a little girl who, dead or alive, has never been found. Where is Madeleine McCann? - the answer never came
"One thing seems certain; the (McCanns’) first floor neighbour, Pamela Fenn, saw David Payne, around 19:00 hours, on the McCanns’ balcony."
Who has heard of this before?
Fiona said;
I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm
Was it her husband? That would fit timewise.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 26, 2016, 01:07:12 PM
Did Fiona, or anyone else for that matter, ever give a reason for going to the McCann apartment at that time?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 26, 2016, 01:21:46 PM
Did Fiona, or anyone else for that matter, ever give a reason for going to the McCann apartment at that time?
No. Not for this info on David Payne either;
He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 26, 2016, 01:28:03 PM
It seems strange (to me) that they should make these visit on the very evening that Madeleine goes missing. No mention of similar visits on previous nights, just that one.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 26, 2016, 09:17:46 PM
It seems strange (to me) that they should make these visit on the very evening that Madeleine goes missing. No mention of similar visits on previous nights, just that one.
That was my very first thoughts when I read the rogs, they never mentioned bath time either, was that why David was there to help bath time?
Something just isn't right, it may not be sinister, but There is something being hidden from view. IMO
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 26, 2016, 09:23:16 PM
00:44:18 1485 "Okay, and when you finished, I'm just trying to put this in order here, when you actually, when you finished and you went back to the apartment, did you say anything to Gerry about, about the fact that his family were fine' Or''
Reply "Yeah, err yeah, I haven't mentioned this before, but yes, yeah I'd certainly, when we met up I said oh yeah, you know everything's fine there, you know probably along the lines of you know you've got a bit more of a free pass you know you can carry on for a bit longer, Kate's fine without everyone you know all the children are, are happy, there's no difficulties with bath time or anything so you know, without actually saying all that just conveying to him that you know I don't think you need to err rush back, you've got a free pass for a bit longer.'
00:44:18 1485 "Okay, and when you finished, I'm just trying to put this in order here, when you actually, when you finished and you went back to the apartment, did you say anything to Gerry about, about the fact that his family were fine' Or''
Reply "Yeah, err yeah, I haven't mentioned this before, but yes, yeah I'd certainly, when we met up I said oh yeah, you know everything's fine there, you know probably along the lines of you know you've got a bit more of a free pass you know you can carry on for a bit longer, Kate's fine without everyone you know all the children are, are happy, there's no difficulties with bath time or anything so you know, without actually saying all that just conveying to him that you know I don't think you need to err rush back, you've got a free pass for a bit longer.'
No it isn't ... unless you can tell us exactly what you find vague.
Yes glad to tell you the vague bit. ALL of it actually, but well lets break it down: Bear this in mind this is about a child who was allegedly abducted by paedophiles and we know what they do to little children so all seems very relaxed and unclear on answering a simple questions. About a child he was one of the last known persons to see her alive?
Reply "Yeah, err yeah, I haven't mentioned this before, but yes, yeah I'd certainly, when we met up I said oh yeah, you know everything's fine there,
Why did he go to the apartment?- we still don't know! why not mention it before?
you know probably along the lines of you know you've got a bit more of a free pass you know you can carry on for a bit longer,
he is guessing what he would have said.. why can't he just say what he said to Gerry - as the questioner asks?
Kate's fine without everyone you know all the children are, are happy,
Why wouldn't Kate be fine without everyone? who is everyone? Why did he go to the apartment? what did he say to Gerry?
there's no difficulties with bath time or anything so you know,
Was someone concerned about bathtime difficulties? Did David go to help with the children bathing? why not tell that?
without actually saying all
OK why say it if you didn't say it, tell us what you did say! Answer the bloody question it aint difficult!
WHAT DID YOU SAY TO GERRY?
that just conveying to him that you know I don't think you need to err rush back, you've got a free pass for a bit longer.'
So, what did he say? we still don't know = vague.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 26, 2016, 10:42:19 PM
No it isn't ... unless you can tell us exactly what you find vague.
They said they both bathed the kids before Gerry left for tennis at 6pm so why are the Payne's suggesting that's not correct in their rogs? Fiona said Gerry told her Kate was bathing and getting the kids ready for bed.
Read this clearly Brietta.
"Gerry said, we're just absolutely knackered and Kate was getting them bathed and ready for bed."
If true, bath time is being covered up. It's elementary ?>)()<
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 26, 2016, 11:16:18 PM
Part 3
Anchor João Ferreira - Gonçalo, what pressures did you feel during the investigation?
Gonçalo Amaral - The pressures were felt immediately with the consul's intervention (Bill Henderson) followed a few hours later after by the British ambassador (John Buck).
Anchor - The consul and the British ambassador?
Gonçalo Amaral - Yes, the consul called us at around 9am, 9:30am of the 4th of May, stating that the Judiciary police wasn't doing anything, that we were not doing anything, and that a different kind of intervention was needed, a diplomatic one. This did took place, the British ambassador who was at the time in Lisbon went to Portimão where he met with us, with me, with Dr. Guilhermino Encarnação, who was the director of the PJ of Faro, with Dr. Luís Neves, who was also present.
Anchor - And what was addressed in that meeting? The inaction of the Judiciary Police?
Gonçalo Amaral - Well, if you notice, immediately after that meeting, a press statement is drafted talking about an abductor, I believe that it was Dr. Guilhermino da Encarnação who read it, there and then the parents start talking about an abductor. The pressure was in that sense, to state that it was an abduction from the first moment.
Anchor - From the first moment there's the attempt to construct the narrative of abduction?
Gonçalo Amaral - From the first moment. It was almost simultaneous, that press statement of the Judiciary Police was read, if memory doesn't fail me, at the door of the PJ headquarters of Portimão...
Tânia Laranjo - Yes, at the the door of the Portimão's headquarters.
Gonçalo Amaral - ...and right away, on the other side of the headquarters, was the couple giving a press statement. The meeting with the ambassador had ended only a few minutes before.
Anchor - But when did you and the rest of the team of PJ investigators begin to have the belief that the explanation for this case could be in fact related to an accidental death concealed by the parents?
Gonçalo Amaral - When all the other lines of investigation, namely the abduction, reached a dead end. So we had to go back to the starting point. What should happen now, if the process isn't archived again, is to do what is obligatory when following a determined line of investigation. That is what we did then, we investigated a third party involvement, not of the parents but of others, which enables the press statements and that press statement of the couple, previously mentioned. That was the abduction thesis that was investigated. We came to the conclusion that an abduction wasn't possible. We started to have doubts, we started to question the statement of one person, another person that belonged to the group and was there, Jane Tanner, and the said conflicts, and lies that happened throughout. So, we couldn't go further in the investigation to the abduction thesis, we had to go back to the starting point. And when returning to the starting point, there's a new inspection to the apartment where the dogs brought by the British police were used. We were working in close cooperation with the British police, they were always with us until the day when the couple left. Then they all left. I wondered at the time what exactly they were doing here then, because one thing is to assist in an investigation and the investigation wasn't concluded when the couple left Portugal in September 2007, and they all left in the following day, "good bye, see you again, let's talk on the phone, exchange mails". We were left alone when we had already reached these conclusions along with the British police input. Earlier I spoke about the Judiciary Police's opinion, but it was also the British police's opinion who was always present and present in the investigations.
ongoing
Broadcast by CMTV, S16 EP20, CM Special: Maddie, the Mystery, April 23, 2016 - first draft
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on April 27, 2016, 12:42:39 AM
So Mr Amaral is stating that the UK police, who had been in Portugal assisting the PJ from the beginning, all went back to UK the day after the tourist couple returned to the UK?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: sadie on April 27, 2016, 12:43:29 AM
One of the abundant mccann supporter myths was that Madeleine was not searched for thoroughly.
She was, y the PJ, local residents, holidaymakers, etc.
The same can never be said of her parents.
Madeleines parents have never stopped searching.
I wonder that such a brainy bloke as you (so you tell us) could make such a massive mistake
They have used the intelligent method of searching rather than walk around PT looking in every bush and in every crack in the rocks. After the first few days there was little point in doing that, cos every potential hiding place had been searched.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Matthew Wyse on April 27, 2016, 01:07:04 AM
I wonder that such a brainy bloke as you (so you tell us) could make such a massive mistake
They have used the intelligent method of searching rather than walk around PT looking in every bush and in every crack in the rocks. After the first few days there was little point in doing that, cos every potential hiding place had been searched.
they had time for jogging and tennis though while everyone else searched for their kid.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: sadie on April 27, 2016, 01:11:38 AM
I wonder that such a brainy bloke as you (so you tell us) could make such a massive mistake
They have used the intelligent method of searching rather than walk around PT looking in every bush and in every crack in the rocks. After the first few days there was little point in doing that, cos every potential hiding place had been searched.
So pray tell us Sadie what exactly was their "intelligent method of searching" on Sat 5th May?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Matthew Wyse on April 27, 2016, 01:20:02 AM
I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm
Was it her husband? That would fit timewise.
I think something got mangled along the way in that. Was the officer commenting on that trying to decipher a statement in Portuguese via Google translate by any chance?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 27, 2016, 11:54:48 AM
I think something got mangled along the way in that. Was the officer commenting on that trying to decipher a statement in Portuguese via Google translate by any chance?
Which bit are you having trouble with?
Fiona went to the McCann apartment at 7pm with Kate McCann on 3rd May.
In her official statements Fiona says she never entered that apartment until after Madeleine's disappearance.
Discuss.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 27, 2016, 11:56:45 AM
Nine years later, he STILL hasn't understood the DNA issue, yet Corte-Real explained in his 'documentary"... 8(8-))
I recall that before we had the official report, we had a preliminary report which indicated that the fluids found in the car rented a month after the disappearance belonged to Madeleine McCann. And when the report arrived, it was no longer like that. It was said at the time that the profile with a series of alleles matched Madeleine's, yet they said that anyone in that laboratory could have contributed to that profile. So, why did it match to Madeleine's, and not, say to the US president profile? There's something very strange about that analysis, something that should be questioned, verified, investigated. I believe that when forensic analyses are done, the laboratory technician has to keep a record of what he is doing. I don't know if that was destroyed or not, but it should exist along side the report.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 27, 2016, 12:08:02 PM
Fiona went to the McCann apartment at 7pm with Kate McCann on 3rd May.
In her official statements Fiona says she never entered that apartment until after Madeleine's disappearance.
Discuss.
If that was an English statement, she wouldn't have said "the husband", would she?
If he was trying to decipher a PT statement (and for all anyone knows it could have been a draft one that he had), pronouns could have been misunderstood, for example.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 27, 2016, 12:15:55 PM
They said they both bathed the kids before Gerry left for tennis at 6pm so why are the Payne's suggesting that's not correct in their rogs? Fiona said Gerry told her Kate was bathing and getting the kids ready for bed.
Read this clearly Brietta.
"Gerry said, we're just absolutely knackered and Kate was getting them bathed and ready for bed."
If true, bath time is being covered up. It's elementary ?>)()<
Hmmm ... and that is your opinion of what constitutes "vague". I know exactly what is "elementary" in your thought processes if that is the best you can do to substantiate posting yet another pejorative statement concerning events you really know little about ... unfortunately forum rules prevent me from stating what it is.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 27, 2016, 12:16:15 PM
Lower court judge;
28. (Items 27 & 28) It is proved that the facts in the book and in the documentary, concerning the investigation, are mostly facts that took place in the investigation and are documented as such.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 27, 2016, 12:17:57 PM
Nine years later, he STILL hasn't understood the DNA issue, yet Corte-Real explained in his 'documentary"... 8(8-))
I recall that before we had the official report, we had a preliminary report which indicated that the fluids found in the car rented a month after the disappearance belonged to Madeleine McCann. And when the report arrived, it was no longer like that. It was said at the time that the profile with a series of alleles matched Madeleine's, yet they said that anyone in that laboratory could have contributed to that profile. So, why did it match to Madeleine's, and not, say to the US president profile? There's something very strange about that analysis, something that should be questioned, verified, investigated. I believe that when forensic analyses are done, the laboratory technician has to keep a record of what he is doing. I don't know if that was destroyed or not, but it should exist along side the report.
why is it that we understand but amaral...the professional doesn't
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 27, 2016, 12:21:45 PM
From memory - so I could be wrong, but didn't the Portuguese Forensic bods also understand and explain it to him as well as John Lowe?
Yes... *sigh*. In his own 'documentary' no less.
32.58 – Professor Corte-Real, who met with the FSS experts, and saw the British scientists’ reports and work notes, explains this issue.
Dr Francisco Corte-Real Vice President, National Forensics Institute
33.09 – When those 15 alleles are included in a mix, where beyond those 15 we can have another 30 or 40 alleles, that means that it includes biological material from several persons. And there it can be much more difficult, much more inconclusive, because we may have a mixture from several persons, including hypothetically, if that happens, we may have several persons from the same family, and that may even give us the idea, in a way, that a certain missing person may be included, and that is not conclusive.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 27, 2016, 01:00:10 PM
28. (Items 27 & 28) It is proved that the facts in the book and in the documentary, concerning the investigation, are mostly facts that took place in the investigation and are documented as such.
If someone had made a statement to say that the McCanns were Chinese, the "fact" is that it would be in the files. It doesn't mean that the statement is factually correct.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 27, 2016, 03:03:02 PM
If someone had made a statement to say that the McCanns were Chinese, the "fact" is that it would be in the files. It doesn't mean that the statement is factually correct.
Well it's clear to me that some of the 'facts' in the files were incorrect. No-one said they were all true. They said that his book referred to information which is in the files, that's all.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 27, 2016, 03:11:50 PM
Well it's clear to me that some of the 'facts' in the files were incorrect. No-one said they were all true. They said that his book referred to information which is in the files, that's all.
Plus a lot that isn't.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 27, 2016, 03:27:40 PM
I've no idea, Eleanor, as I haven't read Amaral's book. Presumably the judges did or someone did on their behalf because they all agreed that he used the information in the files to produce his thesis.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 27, 2016, 03:31:36 PM
I've no idea, Eleanor, as I haven't read Amaral's book. Presumably the judges did or someone did on their behalf because they all agreed that he used the information in the files to produce his thesis.
I think it was The Judge who said that some of his "Facts" aren't in The Files.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 27, 2016, 05:01:57 PM
Well it's clear to me that some of the 'facts' in the files were incorrect. No-one said they were all true. They said that his book referred to information which is in the files, that's all.
I have no problem with people who have genuine questions, and never have.
What I object to is people who claim to be 'truth and justice researchers' who cherry-pick details to support their view and who continue to promote long-debunked myths (100% DNA in the car (nope), the TdeA report as being the final PJ report (nope) , the allegation that the CATS reference file must have been emptied, when it never contained anything in the first place...).
Why do they do this?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 27, 2016, 05:16:26 PM
Well it's clear to me that some of the 'facts' in the files were incorrect. No-one said they were all true. They said that his book referred to information which is in the files, that's all.
What do you judge against to conclude that the files are wrong?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 27, 2016, 05:36:31 PM
As things stand at the moment, it is apparently legitimate for Amaral to promote his 'opinion /interpretation' of unverified facts from the files, plus some that appear out of nowhere, and make a personal fortune out of it as a former lead investigator (albeit for a few months) and who has little experience of such cases, however garbled much of his 'interpretation' actually is.
Have you read the transcript of the program on Saturday night Carana.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on April 27, 2016, 05:50:42 PM
I have no problem with people who have genuine questions, and never have.
What I object to is people who claim to be 'truth and justice researchers' who cherry-pick details to support their view and who continue to promote long-debunked myths (100% DNA in the car (nope), the TdeA report as being the final PJ report (nope) , the allegation that the CATS reference file must have been emptied, when it never contained anything in the first place...).
Why do they do this?
Those who say the McCanns were declared innocent when the PJ files were archived, those who insist the 'libel' trial was about Amaral's 'lies', those who said he had no grounds to appeal, those who say there is a joint UK/Prtugal investigation, those who say the re-opened Portuguese investigation said the McCanns are not suspects. We can all make lists.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 27, 2016, 06:41:12 PM
Nine years later, he STILL hasn't understood the DNA issue, yet Corte-Real explained in his 'documentary"... 8(8-))
I recall that before we had the official report, we had a preliminary report which indicated that the fluids found in the car rented a month after the disappearance belonged to Madeleine McCann. And when the report arrived, it was no longer like that. It was said at the time that the profile with a series of alleles matched Madeleine's, yet they said that anyone in that laboratory could have contributed to that profile. So, why did it match to Madeleine's, and not, say to the US president profile? There's something very strange about that analysis, something that should be questioned, verified, investigated. I believe that when forensic analyses are done, the laboratory technician has to keep a record of what he is doing. I don't know if that was destroyed or not, but it should exist along side the report.
I don't know what some of you are on about, but the above only confirms what Gonçalo Amaral has always said. There was a preliminary report which confirmed Madeleine's DNA in the car and in the final report, it was the complete opposite.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 27, 2016, 06:48:30 PM
I don't know what some of you are on about, but the above only confirms what Gonçalo Amaral has always said. There was a preliminary report which confirmed Madeleine's DNA in the car and in the final report, it was the complete the opposite.
Strange that the final report should be so different.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 27, 2016, 06:56:47 PM
Those who say the McCanns were declared innocent when the PJ files were archived, those who insist the 'libel' trial was about Amaral's 'lies', those who said he had no grounds to appeal, those who say there is a joint UK/Prtugal investigation, those who say the re-opened Portuguese investigation said the McCanns are not suspects. We can all make lists.
DCI wrote
Here you are. From one of the horses mouths.
Re: Coming up on ITV news at 1.30 Post FSoares Today
Claudia79 wrote:
I've just been told that apparently Pedro do Carmo, from the PJ, informed the media the new line of investigation excludes the McCanns as suspects. I didn't know that and don't know if it is accurate.
It's accurate! I do not know how many more official statements some people still need.
In the post from another place the poster is in absolutely no doubt that Pedro do Carmo informed the media that the McCanns are not suspects in the Portuguese investigation.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 27, 2016, 06:59:11 PM
Those who say the McCanns were declared innocent when the PJ files were archived, those who insist the 'libel' trial was about Amaral's 'lies', those who said he had no grounds to appeal, those who say there is a joint UK/Prtugal investigation, those who say the re-opened Portuguese investigation said the McCanns are not suspects. We can all make lists.
well I am glad I didn't say any of those....although you probably wrongly think I did
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 27, 2016, 07:00:23 PM
I don't know what some of you are on about, but the above only confirms what Gonçalo Amaral has always said. There was a preliminary report which confirmed Madeleine's DNA in the car and in the final report, it was the complete opposite.
no there wasn't...amaral completely misunderstood
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 27, 2016, 07:00:53 PM
I don't know what some of you are on about, but the above only confirms what Gonçalo Amaral has always said. There was a preliminary report which confirmed Madeleine's DNA in the car and in the final report, it was the complete opposite.
If that's the case, it can't be one of the DNA documents in the files.
So... either he's only stating what is in the publicly accessible files, or he isn't.
Which is it?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 27, 2016, 07:02:49 PM
The only thing strange about the FSS report is the misinterpretation of it by Goncalo Amaral.
Indeed.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 27, 2016, 07:09:13 PM
whe will the sceptic posters understand that amaral ...the very experienced detective did not understand the forensic evidence ad drew all his own incorrect conclusions...that is a fact
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 27, 2016, 07:12:55 PM
whe will the sceptic posters understand that amaral ...the very experienced detective did not understand the forensic evidence ad drew all his own incorrect conclusions...that is a fact
I am afraid to remind you once again that the accidental death theory has not been disproved by any means.
Likewise, another forum myth saying that Amaral accused the mccanns of killing Madeleine is pure baloney as well.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 27, 2016, 07:16:09 PM
whe will the sceptic posters understand that amaral ...the very experienced detective did not understand the forensic evidence ad drew all his own incorrect conclusions...that is a fact
Within the terms of the writ that was being tried what Sr Amaral thought about DNA was irrelevant. You may recall the judge in the lower court said the case was about "did the contents of book film etc harm the search and did they cause the damage as defined in the writ" not whether the content of the book was true.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 27, 2016, 07:19:55 PM
I am afraid to remind you once again that the accidental death theory has not been disproved by any means.
Likewise, another forum myth saying that Amaral accused the mccanns of killing Madeleine is pure baloney as well.
the fact you have once again not addressed the point in my post shows you have absolutely do defence for the total failure of amaral to understand the evidence
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 27, 2016, 07:25:17 PM
the fact you have once again not addressed the point in my post shows you have absolutely do defence for the total failure of amaral to understand the evidence
You need to read old posts davel.
Likewise it is time you realized once and for all the ramifications of last week's decision.
Have you actually read through the transcript of Saturdays program yet.
At the moment on this thread, you are clutching at straws.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 27, 2016, 07:25:58 PM
I think its important to point out that amaral wrote a book...which is at the centre of this trial in which he demonstrated his pure ignorance of all things forensic
Keep saying it as long as you like. You may well be correct but it doesn't matter. The case was not judged on Sr Amarals forensic knowledge it was judged on other matters and will now continue to be judged on points of law. Thus far the judgment has been in Sr Amaral's favour.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 27, 2016, 07:40:12 PM
Keep saying it as long as you like. You may well be correct but it doesn't matter. The case was not judged on Sr Amarals forensic knowledge it was judged on other matters and will now continue to be judged on points of law. Thus far the judgment has been in Sr Amaral's favour.
I think we all are aware of that....but what many are not aware of is the fact that amaral was wrong on so many points...and it is very important that this is pointed out
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 27, 2016, 07:43:08 PM
Not important at all, as he is not involved in the investigation.
Operation Grange started at the beginning and have worked through all the information and are almost at completion without finding anything of significance.
Nothing Amaral says or has said can influence this investigation.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 27, 2016, 07:45:17 PM
The appeal-court judges ignored that Amaral breached judicial secrecy, invalidating the defence invoked on Amaral's behalf
OR
If that isn't the case, the McCanns will not be granted leave to appeal.
They didn't ignore it ferryman, they completely rejected it;
because the 1st appellant, Gonçalo Amaral, was, until October 2, 2007, the coordinator of the criminal investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, he was, after his retirement on the 1st of July, 2008, subject to the duties of secrecy and reserve that are imposed to the employees that serve the Polícia Judiciária......
it is clearly understood that such argumentation cannot be sustained......
it is hardly understandable that an employee, even more a retired one, would have to keep said duties of secrecy and reserve, thus being limited in the exercise of his right to an opinion, concerning the interpretation of facts that were already made public by the judiciary authority, and widely debated (in fact, largely by initiative of the intervenients themselves) in the national and international media. http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 27, 2016, 09:48:01 PM
They didn't ignore it ferryman, they completely rejected it;
because the 1st appellant, Gonçalo Amaral, was, until October 2, 2007, the coordinator of the criminal investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, he was, after his retirement on the 1st of July, 2008, subject to the duties of secrecy and reserve that are imposed to the employees that serve the Polícia Judiciária......
it is clearly understood that such argumentation cannot be sustained......
it is hardly understandable that an employee, even more a retired one, would have to keep said duties of secrecy and reserve, thus being limited in the exercise of his right to an opinion, concerning the interpretation of facts that were already made public by the judiciary authority, and widely debated (in fact, largely by initiative of the intervenients themselves) in the national and international media. http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
Without the case files uploaded onto the internet by Levy, do you believe the judges would have had the same view about information covered by judicial secrecy being publicly & widely available?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 27, 2016, 09:56:12 PM
Without the case files uploaded onto the internet by Levy, do you believe the judges would have had the same view about information covered by judicial secrecy being publicly & widely available?
Yes.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 27, 2016, 09:58:07 PM
Not important at all, as he is not involved in the investigation.
Operation Grange started at the beginning and have worked through all the information and are almost at completion without finding anything of significance.
Nothing Amaral says or has said can influence this investigation.
so you think the truth is not important
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 27, 2016, 10:00:51 PM
Without the case files uploaded onto the internet by Levy, do you believe the judges would have had the same view about information covered by judicial secrecy being publicly & widely available?
Did you know? Them old case files, they was, like..... released!..... To the media, Y'know, like ...made public ...... sort of......no longer secret, innit.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id142.html
Even i can understand that.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 27, 2016, 10:02:55 PM
Did you know? Them old case files, they was, like..... released!..... To the media, Y'know, like ...made public ...... sort of......no longer secret, innit.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id142.html
Even i can understand that.
Eventually others will too. 8)--))
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 27, 2016, 10:06:48 PM
Did you know? Them old case files, they was, like..... released!..... To the media, Y'know, like ...made public ...... sort of......no longer secret, innit.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id142.html
Even i can understand that.
But they weren't released to the public. They were released to journalists with strict conditions attached. Otherwise.....the Sun would have had a field day, wouldn't they?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 27, 2016, 10:08:39 PM
But they weren't released to the public. They were released to journalists with strict conditions attached. Otherwise.....the Sun would have had a field day, wouldn't they?
IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 27, 2016, 10:11:34 PM
But they weren't released to the public. They were released to journalists with strict conditions attached. Otherwise.....the Sun would have had a field day, wouldn't they?
Who/what are journalists? Other than members of the public, who write stuff that other public look at ?
And where did you get the whole 'with strict conditions attached' bit from, or did you just imagine it?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 27, 2016, 10:21:19 PM
Because the information was in the public domain. The Judiciary made the files available for the public thereby relinquishing their exclusive rights to the content. The issue is "were the files in the public domain when the book was published"? ; answer yes. Next define what public domain means. You can Google that as well as I can. You will find "Levy" is not listed as a precondition of anything. Now there's a major surprise @)(++(*
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 27, 2016, 10:33:33 PM
Because the information was in the public domain. The Judiciary made the files available for the public thereby relinquishing their exclusive rights to the content. The issue is "were the files in the public domain when the book was published"? ; answer yes. Next define what public domain means. You can Google that as well as I can. You will find "Levy" is not listed as a precondition of anything. Now there's a major surprise @)(++(*
When was the book published & when were the DVD's released?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 27, 2016, 10:36:34 PM
When was the book published & when were the DVD's released?
The Portuguese judiciary ceased to have exclusive rights on 21st July 2008 at which point members of the public could have sight if they wished. Sr Amaral's book was published 24th July 2008. Rule one when reading any legal or contract document. Read the definitions section first. It's usually the first one for a very good reason.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 27, 2016, 10:55:37 PM
The Portuguese judiciary ceased to have exclusive rights on 21st July 2008 at which point members of the public could have sight if they wished. Sr Amaral's book was published 24th July 2008. Rule one when reading any legal or contract document. Read the definitions section first. It's usually the first one for a very good reason.
Please provide the relevant cite to show the files were made available to the public on 21st July.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 27, 2016, 10:59:27 PM
The information and the thesis were already in the public domain and shared by many people.
Even more believe the accidental death thesis now.
Kate tells of nightmare
Daily Mirror
Lori Campbell In Praia Da Luz
09/09/2007
"They are basically saying, 'If you confess Madeleine had an accident, and that I panicked and hid the body in a bag for a month then got rid of it in a hire car, I'd get two or three years' suspended sentence.'
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 27, 2016, 11:01:21 PM
"They are basically saying, 'If you confess Madeleine had an accident, and that I panicked and hid the body in a bag for a month then got rid of it in a hire car, I'd get two or three years' suspended sentence.'
Indeed.
The information has been there from the start in the vpublic domain.
Along with tale of the wee abduction.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 27, 2016, 11:01:59 PM
....and when did the evil book come out?
Why, 2008, well b....r me!
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 27, 2016, 11:07:10 PM
"They are basically saying, 'If you confess Madeleine had an accident, and that I panicked and hid the body in a bag for a month then got rid of it in a hire car, I'd get two or three years' suspended sentence.'
The source of the thesis was the author of the book so it wasn't an independent idea.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 27, 2016, 11:12:46 PM
The source of the thesis was the author of the book so it wasn't an independent idea.
Of course, Amaral alone is responsible for the death thesis, no other officer in the force, nor anyone else in human existance had ever even considered it, other than that fat sweaty b*stard.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 27, 2016, 11:17:32 PM
Please provide the relevant cite to show the files were made available to the public on 21st July.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html
The files are deemed to be in the public domain when the case is archived and the judiciary cease to have exclusive rights to the content. The law will only deal with public domain so when the files were first printed off is irrelevant. It might have been a year later for all I know. Some cases may never have been printed off but remain in the public domain.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on April 28, 2016, 01:08:00 AM
My prediction is that no appeal will be made to the supreme court.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on April 28, 2016, 02:35:36 AM
Not sure why people are going over and over the same point like a rolling stone lol.... *&*%£
The courts found for Amaral, finally justice.
I personally think the McCanns made a huge mistake taking him to court in the first place. By their doing this for me, it gave me the impression they had something to hide. If they are innocent then head up high. The point being too the book would have died a death but by keeping it constantly in the news via the McCanns actions makes people want to read it more to see what is actually in there. Mind you its still freely downloadable on the Internet.
The only thing he said was the accidental death, which he said in 2007 way before the book. He wasnt arrested then was he for slander etc....it was only when there was a chance he may make some money they got annoyed.
I think they should let it lie now personally, and I do think it will fade away. No one is bothered anymore sadly its been ongoing too long with no resolution, like it was a dream and never happened. I know my friends gave up on it, as they said, that justice will be never done for the child anyway its all been covered up. They have resigned themselves to that fact.
I do find it odd, that even with the best police force they cant find anything, as perhaps they are not allowed to lift up the right carpets.....
Poor baby, she will never get justice.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 28, 2016, 07:08:05 AM
The Portuguese judiciary ceased to have exclusive rights on 21st July 2008 at which point members of the public could have sight if they wished. Sr Amaral's book was published 24th July 2008. Rule one when reading any legal or contract document. Read the definitions section first. It's usually the first one for a very good reason.
The files weren't available to the media until 4 August. 21 July was when the AG announced the archival.
Although the book was launched on 24 July, he started a pre-launch media blitz some weeks before that.
It's not difficult to imagine that his bleating about death and cover-up made for far more sensational reading than the conclusions of the archiving report.
14. on the 21st July 2008 the General Prosecution of the Republic divulged a note to the media announcing the archiving of the criminal investigation and that the same could be reopen by the initiative of the Public Ministry or any interested parties if new elements of evidence that would lead to pertinent diligences (article 20 of Base Instrutória) .
...
26. On the day of its launch, 24.07.08, the book was also sold with the newspaper Correio d Manhã.
http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk
On 4 August 2008 access to the case file was granted to the 'media' by the Portuguese authorities. In compliance with Portuguese law certain documents had been withheld by the Portuguese authorities for reasons recorded in the file. http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/04.htm
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 28, 2016, 07:40:54 AM
The files weren't available to the media until 4 August. 21 July was when the AG announced the archival.
Although the book was launched on 24 July, he started a pre-launch media blitz some weeks before that.
It's not difficult to imagine that his bleating about death and cover-up made for far more sensational reading than the conclusions of the archiving report.
14. on the 21st July 2008 the General Prosecution of the Republic divulged a note to the media announcing the archiving of the criminal investigation and that the same could be reopen by the initiative of the Public Ministry or any interested parties if new elements of evidence that would lead to pertinent diligences (article 20 of Base Instrutória) .
...
26. On the day of its launch, 24.07.08, the book was also sold with the newspaper Correio d Manhã.
http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk
On 4 August 2008 access to the case file was granted to the 'media' by the Portuguese authorities. In compliance with Portuguese law certain documents had been withheld by the Portuguese authorities for reasons recorded in the file. http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/04.htm
The information was already in the media and on the internet, even then.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 28, 2016, 07:45:59 AM
The information was already in the media and on the internet, even then.
No it wasn't Stephen, it had never been mentioned, we just imagined it......
Kate tells of nightmare
Daily Mirror
Lori Campbell In Praia Da Luz 09/09/2007
"They want me to lie - I'm being framed.
"Police don't want a murder in Portugal and all the publicity about them not having paedophile laws here, so they're blaming us."
"They are basically saying, 'If you confess Madeleine had an accident, and that I panicked and hid the body in a bag for a month then got rid of it in a hire car, I'd get two or three years' suspended sentence.'
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id16.html
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 28, 2016, 07:49:37 AM
it is hardly understandable that an employee, even more a retired one, would have to keep said duties of secrecy and reserve, thus being limited in the exercise of his right to an opinion, concerning the interpretation of facts that were already made public by the judiciary authority, and widely debated (in fact, largely by initiative of the intervenients themselves) in the national and international media. http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
No, that didn't happen.....it was all just a bad dream.
'Kate tells of nightmare' 09/09/2007
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 28, 2016, 09:04:15 AM
Lots of information was in the public domain by early July;
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id129.html
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 28, 2016, 09:08:12 AM
Not sure why people are going over and over the same point like a rolling stone lol.... *&*%£
The courts found for Amaral, finally justice.
I personally think the McCanns made a huge mistake taking him to court in the first place. By their doing this for me, it gave me the impression they had something to hide. If they are innocent then head up high. The point being too the book would have died a death but by keeping it constantly in the news via the McCanns actions makes people want to read it more to see what is actually in there. Mind you its still freely downloadable on the Internet.
The only thing he said was the accidental death, which he said in 2007 way before the book. He wasnt arrested then was he for slander etc....it was only when there was a chance he may make some money they got annoyed.
I think they should let it lie now personally, and I do think it will fade away. No one is bothered anymore sadly its been ongoing too long with no resolution, like it was a dream and never happened. I know my friends gave up on it, as they said, that justice will be never done for the child anyway its all been covered up. They have resigned themselves to that fact.
I do find it odd, that even with the best police force they cant find anything, as perhaps they are not allowed to lift up the right carpets.....
Poor baby, she will never get justice.
Good post. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 28, 2016, 09:18:30 AM
It is the fact that Amaral who was the Police co-ordinator at the time wrote a book, more or less accusing the McCann's of hiding Madeleine's body, getting his DNA WRONG, that is disgusting. Anyone reading a book especially in Portugal, by a person who was the co-ordinator in the case would be likely to believe what he says, if it had just been left in the files, then everyone could see the real DNA results and know there was no evidence at all.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 28, 2016, 09:23:10 AM
It is the fact that Amaral who was the Police co-ordinator at the time wrote a book, more or less accusing the McCann's of hiding Madeleine's body, getting his DNA WRONG, that is disgusting. Anyone reading a book especially in Portugal, by a person who was the co-ordinator in the case would be likely to believe what he says, if it had just been left in the files, then everyone could see the real DNA results and know there was no evidence at all.
It was a thesis.
...and it has not been disproved.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Angelo222 on April 28, 2016, 09:39:09 AM
Let's face it, this latest and probably final judgement in the damages trial will be painful to the McCanns in more ways than one. They must be devastated by this ruling of the Appeal Court which opens up the way for what could be a very expensive countersuit against them.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 28, 2016, 09:40:27 AM
Let's face it, this latest and probably final judgement in the damages trial will be painful to the McCanns in more ways than one. They must be devastated by this ruling of the Appeal Court which opens up the way for what could be a very expensive countersuit against them.
Precisely.
In my and others view they had this coming.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 28, 2016, 09:44:29 AM
Let's face it, this latest and probably final judgement in the damages trial will be painful to the McCanns in more ways than one. They must be devastated by this ruling of the Appeal Court which opens up the way for what could be a very expensive countersuit against them.
It couldn't happen to nicer people - Having tried to destroy someone, they deserve everything they get - IMO
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 28, 2016, 09:46:10 AM
Let's face it, this latest and probably final judgement in the damages trial will be painful to the McCanns in more ways than one. They must be devastated by this ruling of the Appeal Court which opens up the way for what could be a very expensive countersuit against them.
On what grounds can he sue them?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 28, 2016, 09:51:39 AM
It couldn't happen to nicer people - Having tried to destroy someone, they deserve everything they get - IMO
What exactly did they do to him to "destroy" him aside from suing him for his assertions that their missing child was dead and that they had committed crimes for which there is no proof?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 28, 2016, 09:53:26 AM
I asked that question as well, Benice. But I don't think I got an answer.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: lordpookles on April 28, 2016, 09:56:36 AM
I think anyone would sue if they were being slandered with such serious accusations - assuming they are innocent. Anyone here would right? I certainly would for both the money and for my reputation.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 28, 2016, 09:59:02 AM
What exactly did they do to him to "destroy" him aside from suing him for his assertions that their missing child was dead and that they had committed crimes for which there is no proof?
Are you serious ?
He postulated a thesis, and at no time said the mccanns killed Madeleine.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: faithlilly on April 28, 2016, 09:59:27 AM
I think anyone would sue if they were being slandered with such serious accusations - assuming they are innocent. Anyone here would right? I certainly would for both the money and for my reputation.
Yet none of those reasons were put forward as a reason for suing.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 28, 2016, 10:02:23 AM
He postulated a thesis, and at no time said the mccanns killed Madeleine.
But at the very least he is insinuating and speculating that they are responsible for the demise of their daughter... So if they gave the children sleeping medication this is what killed Madeliene... Hence the McCanns were responsible although he does not claim her death was intentional...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 28, 2016, 10:04:12 AM
I think anyone would sue if they were being slandered with such serious accusations - assuming they are innocent. Anyone here would right? I certainly would for both the money and for my reputation.
Like Lord Archer, you mean @)(++(*
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Angelo222 on April 28, 2016, 10:05:08 AM
Very simply, material loss. Amaral has lost a substantial amount of money due to the McCanns failed legal actions against him. He is entitled to seek reparation.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 28, 2016, 10:06:48 AM
The files weren't available to the media until 4 August. 21 July was when the AG announced the archival.
Although the book was launched on 24 July, he started a pre-launch media blitz some weeks before that.
It's not difficult to imagine that his bleating about death and cover-up made for far more sensational reading than the conclusions of the archiving report.
14. on the 21st July 2008 the General Prosecution of the Republic divulged a note to the media announcing the archiving of the criminal investigation and that the same could be reopen by the initiative of the Public Ministry or any interested parties if new elements of evidence that would lead to pertinent diligences (article 20 of Base Instrutória) .
...
26. On the day of its launch, 24.07.08, the book was also sold with the newspaper Correio d Manhã.
http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk
On 4 August 2008 access to the case file was granted to the 'media' by the Portuguese authorities. In compliance with Portuguese law certain documents had been withheld by the Portuguese authorities for reasons recorded in the file. http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/04.htm
That is totally irrelevant to the public domain issue.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: lordpookles on April 28, 2016, 10:07:22 AM
But this is where the injustice lies imo... No one knows and unless there is some evidence of which there is very little imo they have a right to a good name... The issue of leaving the children alone - no one is disputing that was a wrong decision or did not happen... But all the other insinuations are simply not fair...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 28, 2016, 10:08:25 AM
But at the very least he is insinuating and speculating that they are responsible for the demise of their daughter... So if they gave the children sleeping medication this is what killed Madeliene... Hence the McCanns were responsible although he does not claim her death was intentional...
I disagree on that.
He did not say they were responsible for her demise.
His thesis was she had an accident from which she did not recover.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Angelo222 on April 28, 2016, 10:14:24 AM
But this is where the injustice lies imo... No one knows and unless there is some evidence of which there is very little imo they have a right to a good name... The issue of leaving the children alone - no one is disputing that was a wrong decision or did not happen... But all the other insinuations are simply not fair...
Well some appear to be excusing leaving children alone, as than have done it themselves.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Lace on April 28, 2016, 10:16:44 AM
He did not say they were responsible for her demise.
His thesis was she had an accident from which she did not recover.
He says the McCann's give Madeleine Calpol, and that she woke and fell from the sofa because she was groggy, that's more or less saying the McCann's were responsible for her death, without actually coming out and saying it.
He also gives an example of another child who was murdered by their parents, why?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 28, 2016, 10:17:32 AM
He did not say they were responsible for her demise.
His thesis was she had an accident from which she did not recover.
Ok thanks for the clarification, but I think by inference if they covered up the death of their daughter they must have done something illegal or highly unethical concerning Madeliene to want to do so... I have not read the book for what it is worth, just snippets here and there - took the lazy route and watched the documentary...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: lordpookles on April 28, 2016, 10:20:40 AM
Well some appear to be excusing leaving children alone, as than have done it themselves.
Yeah, I don't agree with that and others from an older generation may consider this common practice, but in the present I think most consider this irresponsible. I do. In the interests of giving the McCanns the benefit of the doubt I think I can put this down to a really bad decision... We have all made them...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 28, 2016, 10:22:31 AM
He says the McCann's give Madeleine Calpol, and that she woke and fell from the sofa because she was groggy, that's more or less saying the McCann's were responsible for her death, without actually coming out and saying it.
He also gives an example of another child who was murdered by their parents, why?
Was Calpol in the apartment ?
Did they give their children Calpol ?
Why do parents give their children Calpol ?
I asked one of my students that question a while ago.
His answer, in reference to him and his two younger brothers, 'to keep us quiet'.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 28, 2016, 10:22:44 AM
He did not say they were responsible for her demise.
His thesis was she had an accident from which she did not recover.
That's not all he said, is it?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Angelo222 on April 28, 2016, 10:23:43 AM
I haven't read the book from cover to cover either but what is not in doubt is that it was based on the police files now made public. From the files Amaral and his colleagues formulated a thesis which they were prevented from investigating further. Amaral then took the decision to quit the police and publish that thesis.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 28, 2016, 10:24:31 AM
I haven't read the book from cover to cover either but what is not in doubt is that it was based on the police files now made public. From the files Amaral and his colleagues formulated a thesis which they were prevented from investigating further. Amaral then took the decision to quit the police and publish that thesis.
That is it in a nutshell.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: lordpookles on April 28, 2016, 10:29:18 AM
A thesis, which is not proven and which tarnishes the good name of parents who have lost a child and he pays no recompense for that? If he had proof I would support his endeavours, but this sets a pretty shitty precedent don't you think? I don't think it is a question of whether the McCanns dunnit, but whether anyone feels comfortable living in a society where modern day witch hunts are allowed where hearsay and half established facts are offered as proof...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Benice on April 28, 2016, 10:34:04 AM
Well some appear to be excusing leaving children alone, as than have done it themselves.
And some appear to be completely blinkered to the fact that hundreds of thousands of other parents have done the same on holiday and left their children asleep whilst they went to dinner. Some parents use baby alarms to do the same. The fact that tour operators, hoteliers etc etc still offer this service because despite what happened to Madeleine - there is still a demand for it by parents whilst they are on holiday - is also studiously ignored.
Why aren't sceptics demanding that these parents should be investigated for neglect?
IMO
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 28, 2016, 10:34:54 AM
A thesis, which is not proven and which tarnishes the good name of parents who have lost a child and he pays no recompense for that? If he had proof I would support his endeavours, but this sets a pretty shitty precedent don't you think? I don't think it is a question of whether the McCanns dunnit, but whether anyone feels comfortable living in a society where modern day witch hunts are allowed where hearsay and half established facts are offered as proof...
What good name ?
They lost that in leaving three children unprotected and vulnerable to a variety of potential threats.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 28, 2016, 10:37:25 AM
A thesis, which is not proven and which tarnishes the good name of parents who have lost a child and he pays no recompense for that? If he had proof I would support his endeavours, but this sets a pretty shitty precedent don't you think? I don't think it is a question of whether the McCanns dunnit, but whether anyone feels comfortable living in a society where modern day witch hunts are allowed where hearsay and half established facts are offered as proof...
That's my concern as well. The issue is broader than the McCann case.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 28, 2016, 10:38:17 AM
And some appear to be completely blinkered to the fact that hundreds of thousands of other parents have done the same on holiday and left their children asleep whilst they went to dinner. Some parents use baby alarms to do the same. The fact that tour operators, hoteliers etc etc still offer this service because despite what happened to Madeleine - there is still a demand for it by parents whilst they are on holiday - is also studiously ignored.
Why aren't sceptics demanding that these parents should be investigated for neglect?
IMO
As far as I am concerned, anyone who does what they did , should be arrested.
Are the ones you are referring to, were they leaving their children in unlocked accomodation ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 28, 2016, 10:48:31 AM
A thesis, which is not proven and which tarnishes the good name of parents who have lost a child and he pays no recompense for that? If he had proof I would support his endeavours, but this sets a pretty shitty precedent don't you think? I don't think it is a question of whether the McCanns dunnit, but whether anyone feels comfortable living in a society where modern day witch hunts are allowed where hearsay and half established facts are offered as proof...
WELL SAID!!
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 28, 2016, 11:05:03 AM
A thesis, which is not proven and which tarnishes the good name of parents who have lost a child and he pays no recompense for that? If he had proof I would support his endeavours, but this sets a pretty shitty precedent don't you think? I don't think it is a question of whether the McCanns dunnit, but whether anyone feels comfortable living in a society where modern day witch hunts are allowed where hearsay and half established facts are offered as proof...
seconded....If what amaral was saying was true I would be calling for the McCanns to be arrested.....it isn't...but some have swallowed it hook line and sinker
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 28, 2016, 11:05:50 AM
A thesis, which is not proven and which tarnishes the good name of parents who have lost a child and he pays no recompense for that? If he had proof I would support his endeavours, but this sets a pretty shitty precedent don't you think? I don't think it is a question of whether the McCanns dunnit, but whether anyone feels comfortable living in a society where modern day witch hunts are allowed where hearsay and half established facts are offered as proof...
This is the real concern. Or does this "Privilege' only apply to ex members of The PJ.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 28, 2016, 11:06:57 AM
seconded....If what amaral was saying was true I would be calling for the McCanns to be arrested.....it isn't...but some have swallowed it hook line and sinker
Yet Amaral could be right as to an accidental death.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 28, 2016, 11:07:12 AM
OFF TOPIC POSTS will be deleted.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 28, 2016, 11:16:03 AM
A thesis, which is not proven and which tarnishes the good name of parents who have lost a child and he pays no recompense for that? If he had proof I would support his endeavours, but this sets a pretty shitty precedent don't you think? I don't think it is a question of whether the McCanns dunnit, but whether anyone feels comfortable living in a society where modern day witch hunts are allowed where hearsay and half established facts are offered as proof...
That would cover a lot of ground. Did you have any particular society, above others of a similar ilk, in mind?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: lordpookles on April 28, 2016, 11:19:50 AM
That would cover a lot of ground. Did you have any particular society, above others of a similar ilk, in mind?
Hi Alice, no just a humble ideal in mind. What do you think on the matter? Should we allow accusations of this kind without any proof to be printed and distributed without any burden of proof? I could just decide to slander my neighbour for instance and start leafleting the local area with slurs upon his name...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 28, 2016, 11:25:52 AM
Hi Alice, no just a humble ideal in mind. What do you think on the matter? Should we allow accusations of this kind without any proof to be printed and distributed without any burden of proof? I could just decide to slander my neighbour for instance and start leafleting the local area with slurs upon his name...
Yet this has happened in the press for many years.
How would you stop it ?
and how would you stop people using legislation to cover up illegal activities.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: lordpookles on April 28, 2016, 11:28:48 AM
Yet this has happened in the press for many years.
How would you stop it ?
and how would you stop people using legislation to cover up illegal activities.
The press does make stuff up and they get sued a lot in the UK. No system is perfect and I definitely wouldn't hold the UK up as some beacon of light, but if you make stuff up, get your facts wrong then rightly imo you should be able to in an ideal world sue said person...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 28, 2016, 11:33:48 AM
Hi Alice, no just a humble ideal in mind. What do you think on the matter? Should we allow accusations of this kind without any proof to be printed and distributed without any burden of proof? I could just decide to slander my neighbour for instance and start leafleting the local area with slurs upon his name...
The humble higher ideal is fine and we should aspire to it. We live however in a country where a prime minister once wanted a law where in effect someone could be arrested if they looked like they were going to commit a crime. On that basis I doubt the ideal will come to fruition. If you are referring to Mr Bennett leafleting Rothley his behaviour was unacceptable in my book. As far as Sr Amaral's book is concerned, so far in two separate cases the Portuguese courts have ruled he can publish his book, furthermore the courts ruled that the content of the book does not offend any of the McCanns basic rights under Portuguese law.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 28, 2016, 11:35:20 AM
A thesis, which is not proven and which tarnishes the good name of parents who have lost a child and he pays no recompense for that? If he had proof I would support his endeavours, but this sets a pretty shitty precedent don't you think? I don't think it is a question of whether the McCanns dunnit, but whether anyone feels comfortable living in a society where modern day witch hunts are allowed where hearsay and half established facts are offered as proof...
A thesis which was developed and investigated by a team of investigators, and was laid out in a report in 2007? This report is significant because it was before Amaral was taken off the case, so it reflects the position at the end of his direct involvement.
A report by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida to the Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation
Where he concludes, after analyzing all the evidence gathered, that the child is dead and the parents were responsible for cadaver occultation, and the entire GROUP was lying since the first day of the investigation.
From the declarations of the group results a total incoherence, in the face of which it's obvious, that everyone lies.
Although the entire group was at the table and starting the meal, they began the 'visits' to the children in a way that is neither coherent nor acceptable; that could not be confirmed and only the group defends it, in a sort of 'unique version'.
Let's see: the media forwarded the hypothesis that the children could have been sedated to be kept asleep and allow some rest to the parents.
10 September 2007 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 28, 2016, 11:40:08 AM
Hi Alice, no just a humble ideal in mind. What do you think on the matter? Should we allow accusations of this kind without any proof to be printed and distributed without any burden of proof? I could just decide to slander my neighbour for instance and start leafleting the local area with slurs upon his name...
The judgement is clear on that. By the McCanns etc not conforming to judicial secrecy but promoting a single version of events, Amaral was entitled to theorise about an alternative.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on April 28, 2016, 12:30:42 PM
Gonçalo Amaral's book is already in the shops. A friend saw it in the paper shop at Portimão hospital with a blue band with the word "absolvido" (aquitted) and o livro é livre (the book has been freed). I have to go next week and will take a photo.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 28, 2016, 12:37:40 PM
Gonçalo Amaral's book is already in the shops. A friend saw it in the paper shop at Portimão hospital with a blue band with the word "absolvido" (aquitted) and o livro é livre (the book has been freed). I have to go next week and will take a photo.
That didn't take long. It has been, what, a week since the verdict of the appeal?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 28, 2016, 12:42:33 PM
That would cover a lot of ground. Did you have any particular society, above others of a similar ilk, in mind?
What would happen if... e.g. there were one of the usual accusations against, say, a footballer.
There might have been a suspicion - at some point - that said footballer could have been passing on an STD.
The CPS drops the case for whatever reasons.
His newly retired "expert" GP, who may have been more familiar with skin cancer, suddenly pops up, but who has trouble distinguishing between the results of an STD analysis and an infected toenail, yet chooses to insist on the former in a blaze of (lucrative) media attention.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 28, 2016, 12:52:12 PM
What would happen if... e.g. there were one of the usual accusations against, say, a footballer.
There might have been a suspicion - at some point - that said footballer could have been passing on an STD.
The CPS drops the case for whatever reasons.
His newly retired "expert" GP, who may have been more familiar with skin cancer, suddenly pops up, but who has trouble distinguishing between the results of an STD analysis and an infected toenail, yet chooses to insist on the former in a blaze of (lucrative) media attention.
Sunday league player just tough luck. Premiership multimillionaire type there would be one of them there super injunction thingies. You know where you can't even say that an injunction has been taken out.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 28, 2016, 01:25:20 PM
What would happen if... e.g. there were one of the usual accusations against, say, a footballer.
There might have been a suspicion - at some point - that said footballer could have been passing on an STD.
The CPS drops the case for whatever reasons.
His newly retired "expert" GP, who may have been more familiar with skin cancer, suddenly pops up, but who has trouble distinguishing between the results of an STD analysis and an infected toenail, yet chooses to insist on the former in a blaze of (lucrative) media attention.
We have been subjected to the views of many 'experts' in the UK media on the McCann case. They have been allowed to broadcast their opinions unscathed because they were largely supportive of the McCanns. I assume those who weren't were denied the opportunity to publicise their opinions. What did Katie Hopkins say....not allowed?
Alternative views on the case have been censored in the UK. It's only due to the internet that UK citizens have been able to discover that alternative opinions even existed. When they have been commented on adjectives such as 'ridiculous' and 'bumbling' and ludicrous' have been applied to them, with the accompanying adjectives 'distraught' and 'anguished' and 'suffering' being applied to the McCanns. Very biased reporting in my opinion.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 28, 2016, 01:29:54 PM
We have been subjected to the views of many 'experts' in the UK media on the McCann case. They have been allowed to broadcast their opinions unscathed because they were largely supportive of the McCanns. I assume those who weren't were denied the opportunity to publicise their opinions. What did Katie Hopkins say....not allowed?
Alternative views on the case have been censored in the UK. It's only due to the internet that UK citizens have been able to discover that alternative opinions even existed. When they have been commented on adjectives such as 'ridiculous' and 'bumbling' and ludicrous' have been applied to them, with the accompanying adjectives 'distraught' and 'anguished' and 'suffering' being applied to the McCanns. Very biased reporting in my opinion.
No doubt she'll be on the hit list, for if they ever get enough money together to go litigating again ?{)(**
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 28, 2016, 01:30:55 PM
We have been subjected to the views of many 'experts' in the UK media on the McCann case. They have been allowed to broadcast their opinions unscathed because they were largely supportive of the McCanns. I assume those who weren't were denied the opportunity to publicise their opinions. What did Katie Hopkins say....not allowed?
Alternative views on the case have been censored in the UK. It's only due to the internet that UK citizens have been able to discover that alternative opinions even existed. When they have been commented on adjectives such as 'ridiculous' and 'bumbling' and ludicrous' have been applied to them, with the accompanying adjectives 'distraught' and 'anguished' and 'suffering' being applied to the McCanns. Very biased reporting in my opinion.
#you are totally wrong in your accusations re the UK...there is no censorship...people can say exactly what they want within the law
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 28, 2016, 01:42:28 PM
We have been subjected to the views of many 'experts' in the UK media on the McCann case. They have been allowed to broadcast their opinions unscathed because they were largely supportive of the McCanns. I assume those who weren't were denied the opportunity to publicise their opinions. What did Katie Hopkins say....not allowed?
Alternative views on the case have been censored in the UK. It's only due to the internet that UK citizens have been able to discover that alternative opinions even existed. When they have been commented on adjectives such as 'ridiculous' and 'bumbling' and ludicrous' have been applied to them, with the accompanying adjectives 'distraught' and 'anguished' and 'suffering' being applied to the McCanns. Very biased reporting in my opinion.
IF PT had had a press service, then tabloid hacks would have been able to file their copy for the day and gone home.
In the absence of a media strategy, yet with the media pressure, UK hacks resorted to quoting PT tabloids, who in turn got garbled snippets from PT judicial windows.
The only way that the UK tabloid hacks thought that they could circumvent UK libel was by digging into their inexhaustible dropdown menu of adjectives.
When there's nothing new to say, the adjectives add to the word count as well.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 28, 2016, 02:22:58 PM
IF PT had had a press service, then tabloid hacks would have been able to file their copy for the day and gone home.
In the absence of a media strategy, yet with the media pressure, UK hacks resorted to quoting PT tabloids, who in turn got garbled snippets from PT judicial windows.
The only way that the UK tabloid hacks thought that they could circumvent UK libel was by digging into their inexhaustible dropdown menu of adjectives.
When there's nothing new to say, the adjectives add to the word count as well.
Yes, a media strategy would have sorted it all out......or maybe not. &%&£(+
In Christopher Jefferies’ own words to the Leveson inquiry, it was the “inappropriate interaction” with newspapers by the police which “was in large part responsible for the ordeal I suffered at the hands of the press.” The police “leaked my name to the press at the time of my arrest,” which “led to ‘open season’ against me in the media.” Without that, he said, “I do not believe that the press would have published the stories which ensued … armed with confirmation of my name and, it appears, other information from the police, the media seemed to consider there were no holds barred.” The “other information,” according to Richard Wallace, editor of the worst offender, the Mirror, was that “off the record, the police were saying they were confident Mr Jefferies was their man.” http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/11287037/Christopher-Jefferies-was-treated-disgracefully-by-the-police-not-just-the-press.html
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 28, 2016, 03:55:15 PM
A thesis, which is not proven and which tarnishes the good name of parents who have lost a child and he pays no recompense for that? If he had proof I would support his endeavours, but this sets a pretty shitty precedent don't you think? I don't think it is a question of whether the McCanns dunnit, but whether anyone feels comfortable living in a society where modern day witch hunts are allowed where hearsay and half established facts are offered as proof...
A thesis which is not proven?
Jeeesus wept. &%&£(+
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 28, 2016, 03:57:26 PM
Yes, a media strategy would have sorted it all out......or maybe not. &%&£(+
In Christopher Jefferies’ own words to the Leveson inquiry, it was the “inappropriate interaction” with newspapers by the police which “was in large part responsible for the ordeal I suffered at the hands of the press.” The police “leaked my name to the press at the time of my arrest,” which “led to ‘open season’ against me in the media.” Without that, he said, “I do not believe that the press would have published the stories which ensued … armed with confirmation of my name and, it appears, other information from the police, the media seemed to consider there were no holds barred.” The “other information,” according to Richard Wallace, editor of the worst offender, the Mirror, was that “off the record, the police were saying they were confident Mr Jefferies was their man.” http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/11287037/Christopher-Jefferies-was-treated-disgracefully-by-the-police-not-just-the-press.html
Such things appear to happen in many police forces. It doesn't make it right though, does it?
ETA: I wouldn't have minded if they'd said that x had been eliminated only to eventually find that x was responsible, in the end. It's the other way around that I object to, whichever force may be in question.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: lordpookles on April 28, 2016, 04:23:10 PM
The humble higher ideal is fine and we should aspire to it. We live however in a country where a prime minister once wanted a law where in effect someone could be arrested if they looked like they were going to commit a crime. On that basis I doubt the ideal will come to fruition. If you are referring to Mr Bennett leafleting Rothley his behaviour was unacceptable in my book. As far as Sr Amaral's book is concerned, so far in two separate cases the Portuguese courts have ruled he can publish his book, furthermore the courts ruled that the content of the book does not offend any of the McCanns basic rights under Portuguese law.
They have at least had their day in court, 3 times now in fact, which I have a lot of respect for. It's a tricky line, regarding freedom of speech and the right to not have your reputation trashed. I did actually read the judge's conclusion when someone posted it. I think for instance in the UK we perhaps go to far and stifle opinion, but K.Hopkins recent article bucked that trend in regards to this case. Some of Amaral's book should be edited imo if he repeats what he says in the documentaries regarding DNA for instance. In his unqualified opinion, he seemed to analyse the DNA results from the hire car and make false claims regarding the likelihood this was her DNA. He could have at least sought and paid for a forensic scientist to dispute the findings rather than make this stuff up I suppose.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on April 28, 2016, 04:35:37 PM
They have at least had their day in court, 3 times now in fact, which I have a lot of respect for. It's a tricky line, regarding freedom of speech and the right to not have your reputation trashed. I did actually read the judge's conclusion when someone posted it. I think for instance in the UK we perhaps go to far and stifle opinion, but K.Hopkins recent article bucked that trend in regards to this case. Some of Amaral's book should be edited imo if he repeats what he says in the documentaries regarding DNA for instance. In his unqualified opinion, he seemed to analyse the DNA results from the hire car and make false claims regarding the likelihood this was her DNA. He could have at least sought and paid for a forensic scientist to dispute the findings rather than make this stuff up I suppose.
The head of the PT forensic lab was interviewed as part of his 'documentary', agreeing with the FSS, and the original was in Portuguese.
What part of it does Amaral still not understand?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: lordpookles on April 28, 2016, 04:42:32 PM
The head of the PT forensic lab was interviewed as part of his 'documentary', agreeing with the FSS, and the original was in Portuguese.
What part of it does Amaral still not understand?
Ha, actually I think I may be mistaken. I'll check his doc again when i get a moment. I thought he suggested it was extremely likely that the forensic results suggested Madeliene's DNA.
On a different note, we never find out the witnesses name who saw the car boot open. I assume there was a witness, because otherwise this would have been found out at some point at court.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on April 28, 2016, 06:17:41 PM
Ha, actually I think I may be mistaken. I'll check his doc again when i get a moment. I thought he suggested it was extremely likely that the forensic results suggested Madeliene's DNA.
On a different note, we never find out the witnesses name who saw the car boot open. I assume there was a witness, because otherwise this would have been found out at some point at court.
You're right. Dr. Corte Real confirmed that there was a preliminary report which stated that it was Madeleine's DNA. How some people here understand the opposite is beyond my comprehension.
IIRC, the woman who saw the car boot open is Portuguese and a "jurista" and she appeared on GA's documentary.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 28, 2016, 06:22:53 PM
You're right. Dr. Corte Real confirmed that there was a preliminary report which stated that it was Madeleine's DNA. How some people here understand the opposite is beyond my comprehension.
IIRC, the woman who saw the car boot open is Portuguese and a "jurista" and she appeared on GA's documentary.
That would be before Lowe et al discovered the errors of their way.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 28, 2016, 07:19:21 PM
What would happen if... e.g. there were one of the usual accusations against, say, a footballer.
There might have been a suspicion - at some point - that said footballer could have been passing on an STD.
The CPS drops the case for whatever reasons.
His newly retired "expert" GP, who may have been more familiar with skin cancer, suddenly pops up, but who has trouble distinguishing between the results of an STD analysis and an infected toenail, yet chooses to insist on the former in a blaze of (lucrative) media attention.
I suppose if the said footballer was strutting his stuff and talking about NOT having an STD and NOT haveing any kind of disease then for a GP to claim he had a disease would be correct if he had examined him and could not eliminate him from a line up of footballers who had a a disease.
Point being said GP had knowledge of disease and the affects and causes of such diseases.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 28, 2016, 08:37:27 PM
You're right. Dr. Corte Real confirmed that there was a preliminary report which stated that it was Madeleine's DNA. How some people here understand the opposite is beyond my comprehension.
IIRC, the woman who saw the car boot open is Portuguese and a "jurista" and she appeared on GA's documentary.
There is a full discussion of the allegation made by this anonymous 'witness' in the Amaral documentary here ...
You're right. Dr. Corte Real confirmed that there was a preliminary report which stated that it was Madeleine's DNA. How some people here understand the opposite is beyond my comprehension.
IIRC, the woman who saw the car boot open is Portuguese and a "jurista" and she appeared on GA's documentary.
What did Corte Real say?
Here is what he said in Amaral's documentary, assuming that the translation is accurate:
33.09 – Dr Francisco Corte-Real, Vice President, National Forensics Institute: "When those 15 alleles are included in a mix, where beyond those 15 we can have another 30 or 40 alleles, that means that it includes biological material from several persons. And there it can be much more difficult, much more inconclusive, because we may have a mixture from several persons, including hypothetically, if that happens, we may have several persons from the same family, and that may even give us the idea, in a way, that a certain missing person may be included, and that is not conclusive."
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: sadie on April 29, 2016, 12:16:26 AM
A thesis, which is not proven and which tarnishes the good name of parents who have lost a child and he pays no recompense for that? If he had proof I would support his endeavours, but this sets a pretty shitty precedent don't you think? I don't think it is a question of whether the McCanns dunnit, but whether anyone feels comfortable living in a society where modern day witch hunts are allowed where hearsay and half established facts are offered as proof...
Well said lordP.
The voice of reason. 8@??)(
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 29, 2016, 06:42:07 AM
They have at least had their day in court, 3 times now in fact, which I have a lot of respect for. It's a tricky line, regarding freedom of speech and the right to not have your reputation trashed. I did actually read the judge's conclusion when someone posted it. I think for instance in the UK we perhaps go to far and stifle opinion, but K.Hopkins recent article bucked that trend in regards to this case. Some of Amaral's book should be edited imo if he repeats what he says in the documentaries regarding DNA for instance. In his unqualified opinion, he seemed to analyse the DNA results from the hire car and make false claims regarding the likelihood this was her DNA. He could have at least sought and paid for a forensic scientist to dispute the findings rather than make this stuff up I suppose.
Well said.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: lordpookles on April 29, 2016, 01:47:08 PM
So what kind of grade at uni does a thesis without any proof to back up arguments get?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 29, 2016, 01:55:02 PM
Of course. The proof as far as I can tell either way is not strong. Though no-one has published such a thesis yet. Unless you count Kate's book which isn't prone to libelling anyone though imo..
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 29, 2016, 04:00:00 PM
Of course. The proof as far as I can tell either way is not strong. Though no-one has published such a thesis yet. Unless you count Kate's book which isn't prone to libelling anyone though imo..
If the parents are ruled out...as SY tell us ..abduction is odds on
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 29, 2016, 04:07:12 PM
I luv it wen peeps uses predictive txt then don't reed wot they writ.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 29, 2016, 04:20:50 PM
If the parents are ruled out...as SY tell us ..abduction is odds on
You can type that until the end of time.
It won't help.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 29, 2016, 04:41:13 PM
I do actually wonder when the mccanns fail with their bid to the Supreme Court, presuming an appeal is made or even accepted, the support mantra will continue.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: lordpookles on April 29, 2016, 04:52:24 PM
It's not mantra on my part and I'm not a supporter per se. I feel strongly that someone should be able to challenge someone else if they are making slurs upon their name without convincing proof...
You say when they fail... do you think? It's a high profile case, seems to me a bid may have a good chance of being accepted...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 29, 2016, 05:07:29 PM
I do actually wonder when the mccanns fail with their bid to the Supreme Court, presuming an appeal is made or even accepted, the support mantra will continue.
I will continue to support the McCanns because the evidence supports their innocence
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 29, 2016, 05:12:51 PM
I do actually wonder when the mccanns fail with their bid to the Supreme Court, presuming an appeal is made or even accepted, the support mantra will continue.
One or two are likely to go into total meltdown, so it might be a good time to take a short break
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 29, 2016, 05:35:12 PM
It's not mantra on my part and I'm not a supporter per se. I feel strongly that someone should be able to challenge someone else if they are making slurs upon their name without convincing proof...
You say when they fail... do you think? It's a high profile case, seems to me a bid may have a good chance of being accepted...
So on what grounds could they appeal ?
The judgement was based on the following of Portuguese Law.
Likewise appeals to the Supreme Court are not automatic.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 29, 2016, 05:36:10 PM
The judgement was based on the following of Portuguese Law.
Likewise appeals to the Supreme Court are not automatic.
I think we need to wait and see.
I feel they will appeal as otherwise their route to the ECHR is blocked. It may be all bravado, of course and they may make no such appeal.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on April 29, 2016, 05:42:45 PM
IMO there will be no application to appeal to the supreme court. Instead action will probably already be underway under UK law to try to prevent UK publication IMO. And a few polite letters like: "Dear William H, You've always been respected over your long history for your wise very cautious choices of what books to sell therefore we obviously have every expectation that ........... . Cheers, A"
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 29, 2016, 05:47:27 PM
IMO there will be no application to appeal to the supreme court. Instead action will probably already be underway under UK law to try to prevent UK publication IMO. And a few polite letters like: "Dear William H, You've always been respected over your long history for your wise very cautious choices of what books to sell therefore we obviously have every expectation that ........... . Cheers, A"
The book in its resent form could not be sold in the uk due to the laws of libel
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 29, 2016, 05:49:01 PM
The book in its resent form could not be sold in the uk due to the laws of libel
Anyone who is on the net can avail themselves of the book all too easily.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on April 29, 2016, 05:51:40 PM
MOD NOTE
Not sure why things have kicked off a bit, but kindly be more civil to each other. Over-heated posts have already been deleted, so please calm down a bit. Thanks.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 29, 2016, 05:52:17 PM
The book in its resent form could not be sold in the uk due to the laws of libel
I'm predicting that applications for injunctions or whatever they call them under UK law are probably already being prepared by some expensive outfit in London Davel. Also that no appeal will be made to the supreme court in Portugal. Are you predicting that the appeal definitely will happen?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 29, 2016, 06:03:28 PM
I'm predicting that applications for injunctions or whatever they call them under UK law are probably already being prepared by some expensive outfit in London Davel. Also that no appeal will be made to the supreme court in Portugal. Are you predicting that the appeal definitely will happen?
I think you are wrong re the injuctions....no publisher would touch the book in the UK as it is so obviously libellous,,,i'm sure the mccanns would absolutely love amaral to publish here.....and I think they will appeal.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Angelo222 on April 29, 2016, 06:50:42 PM
I think you are wrong re the injuctions....no publisher would touch the book in the UK as it is so obviously libellous,,,i'm sure the mccanns would absolutely love amaral to publish here.....and I think they will appeal.
It is only a matter of time before a UK national newspaper serializes the book and publishes excerpts which are not libellous.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 29, 2016, 06:56:23 PM
I'm predicting that applications for injunctions or whatever they call them under UK law are probably already being prepared by some expensive outfit in London Davel. Also that no appeal will be made to the supreme court in Portugal. Are you predicting that the appeal definitely will happen?
The McCanns cannot afford not to go to the Supreme Court in Portugal because there is just too much at stake. I don't think the Court will entertain them though unless they can persuade it on a crucial point of law. I think they have cooked their own goose because Amaral now has the ball at his feet and could ruin them.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 29, 2016, 07:00:52 PM
The McCanns cannot afford not to go to the Supreme Court in Portugal because there is just too much at stake. I don't think the Court will entertain them though unless they can persuade it on a crucial point of law. I think they have cooked their own goose because Amaral now has the ball at his feet and could ruin them.
I agree Angelo. They either have to win or have the ref stop the fight. They cannot be seen to be throwing in the towel.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: LagosBen on April 29, 2016, 07:20:31 PM
Why would any UK rag do that unless it was a pre-launch promo tour?
Libellous or not, they'd have to find bits that are actually factually accurate. Between the two, I can't think of much that would be left.
*&*%£ True. I would think anyone who would be interested have already downloaded it free thanks to his supporters.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 29, 2016, 07:23:02 PM
It's a tricky one. Is it more humiliating to lose the appeal or have it refused by the court ? If they don't go to appeal at all, then they lose any chance at the ECHR, though they may not pursue that anyway.
They may win on appeal, of course, though few seem to rate their chances.
Decisions, decisions. Will ego overcome pragmatism?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 29, 2016, 07:26:04 PM
Why would any UK rag do that unless it was a pre-launch promo tour?
Libellous or not, they'd have to find bits that are actually factually accurate. Between the two, I can't think of much that would be left.
If they thought it would increase copy sales, which then increases advertising revenue and for the venture cash in less cash out = profit then the average rag would sell it's grannies.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 29, 2016, 07:31:24 PM
Judging by the comments section in the national press, more people are now interested in seeing Amaral's side of the story.
I doubt whether he will be too bothered as regards extra sales.
The irony is of course, many people will use the internet to obtain the book and not bother with bookshops.
..and of course he can write another book about his experiences of the mccanns, the court procedures, and the mccanns lust for revenge and money.
A best seller 8)--))
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on April 29, 2016, 07:38:04 PM
It is a pity that the book by KM is not available freely online. It is a useful and honest book. It's main aim is to help find what happened to the child - therefore the online version should be free.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 29, 2016, 10:29:50 PM
Please don't post third party comments by anonymous respondents to newspaper articles. Original comment only please gents!
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 30, 2016, 12:25:51 AM
It is a pity that the book by KM is not available freely online. It is a useful and honest book. It's main aim is to help find what happened to the child - therefore the online version should be free.
Send her an email and ask her to stop the BUY MY BOOK advert on the official madeleine website and thoe in READ MY BOOK FOR FREE
You do have a point, after fund raising sales were made years ago and IF anything in the book might yield a suspect she would do well to publsh it freely worldwide, surely
Just thnk the one person who might hold the single piece to the jigsaw might be somene who couldnt be bothered buy the book
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on April 30, 2016, 12:33:07 AM
I doubt the publisher would agree to it Merc. BTW I am not criticising the book - it is very good IMO.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 30, 2016, 12:35:48 AM
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 30, 2016, 01:14:48 AM
Oh dear oh dear
Whyever would they back out of a tv regular friendly couch show
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 30, 2016, 01:16:16 AM
McCanns pull out of Lorraine TV show appearance after devastating libel case defeat
THE parents of Madeleine McCann will not make a fresh plea to find her next week. By Jerry Lawton, EXCLUSIVE / Published 30th April 2016
Kate and Gerry McCann and Lorraine Kelly GETTY/PA SETBACK: Kate & Gerry McCann were due to appear on ITV's Lorraine early next week
Kate and Gerry were expected to talk to ITV’s Lorraine Kelly on Tuesday, the ninth anniversary of their daughter’s disappearance. But they have pulled out after suffering a £390,000 setback in their libel battle with ex-Portuguese detective Goncalo Amaral.
They fear the court fight will deflect attention from the search for Maddie, who was three when she disappeared from their holiday apartment in Praia da Luz, Portugal, in May 2007.
Goncalo Amaral PA VICTORY: Ex-cop Amaral's £390,000 libel payout was overturned by an appeal court
The country’s appeal court has ruled in favour of the former cop and overturned the libel payout that he was ordered to make to the McCanns.
He wrote a book in which he accused the couple of covering up Maddie’s accidental death.
Kate, 48, and Gerry, 47, of Rothley, Leics, were said to be seething over the decision and are now lining up an appeal in Portugal’s Supreme Court.
Maddie in an Everton shirt PA SAD: Maddie was three when she disappeared from the McCann's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz They are also said to have turned down huge television and magazine interview offers from around the world.
Meanwhile, Mr Amaral, 57, has now been allowed to re-publish his book.
Maddie McCann looking at the camera PA FOCUSED: The family have reportedly turned down huge television and magazine interview offers
It is back on sale and is set to appear in English for the first time.
A family friend said: “They would love to make a new appeal, but are aware that any journalist would want to inquire about Mr Amaral’s victory.
“They’re seething over the ruling. That’s the last thing they want to discuss.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 30, 2016, 01:19:13 AM
oh dear not like the mcanns to be camera shy is it?? and awesome news about the book coming out in english
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 30, 2016, 01:24:35 AM
No doubt they will have the opportunity to publicise Madeleine on another occasion when they are launching the new age progressed image they have said they think is necessary.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on April 30, 2016, 01:32:51 AM
No doubt they will have the opportunity to publicise Madeleine on another occasion when they are launching the new age progressed image they have said they think is necessary.
Is that what they were going on lorraine to do then? Publcise a new age prgression photo? Whats stopping them?
Wheres the urgency?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on April 30, 2016, 01:50:02 AM
Is that what they were going on lorraine to do then? Publcise a new age prgression photo? Whats stopping them?
Wheres the urgency?
No ... they don't have an age progressed image at the moment ... I believe they intend to commission one.
Just a reminder ... Tuesday is the ninth anniversary of Madeleine McCann's disappearance ... I don't know why they have have pulled out of a vehicle to publicise her, possibly Mr Amaral's appeal court victory might have a bearing or it may not.
I have no problem at all with his following being happy about his victory ... but find it just a tad below the belt at the glee being evidenced that on the ninth anniversary of their daughter's disappearance they feel unable to take the opportunity to publicise her for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on April 30, 2016, 01:56:58 AM
No ... they don't have an age progressed image at the moment ... I believe they intend to commission one.
Just a reminder ... Tuesday is the ninth anniversary of Madeleine McCann's disappearance ... I don't know why they have have pulled out of a vehicle to publicise her, possibly Mr Amaral's appeal court victory might have a bearing or it may not.
I have no problem at all with his following being happy about his victory ... but find it just a tad below the belt at the glee being evidenced that on the ninth anniversary of their daughter's disappearance they feel unable to take the opportunity to publicise her for whatever reason.
now they know how GA has felt all these years
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 30, 2016, 09:00:43 AM
The McCanns spent years trying to silence Amaral. At the moment they have failed. As a result they have pulled out of a planned TV interview and are declining all interviews in case they have to answer questions about their court defeat.
A family friend said: “They would love to make a new appeal, but are aware that any journalist would want to inquire about Mr Amaral’s victory.
“They’re seething over the ruling. That’s the last thing they want to discuss. ’’ http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/511851/Kate-Gerry-McCann-pull-out-of-TV-appearance-Lorraine-Amaral-libel-case
Whichever way I look at this decision I can't quite decide if it's logical. I understand the basic premise; 'we want to appeal for people to search for Madeleine and this will distract from it'.
I have seen the McCanns being interviewed and they became quite adept at answering questions with the answers they wanted to give. Asked about 'neglect' they talked about who the 'real' criminal was, for example. Has that politician style skill deserted them?
Much has been said about how Amaral's book harmed the search. They are turning down opportunities to reiterate that. They said that's why they brought the action and they hinted that it was the reason they won the first hearing. Are they afraid to admit that it had nothing to do with the first judgement?
Who is harming the search now? If they try to suggest a causal connection between the appeal judgement and their failure to appeal on 3rd May they will fail. It's obviously their decision for whatever reason, and it looks like they have no answers to any questions that could be asked.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 30, 2016, 09:04:17 AM
The McCanns spent years trying to silence Amaral. At the moment they have failed. As a result they have pulled out of a planned TV interview and are declining all interviews in case they have to answer questions about their court defeat.
A family friend said: “They would love to make a new appeal, but are aware that any journalist would want to inquire about Mr Amaral’s victory.
“They’re seething over the ruling. That’s the last thing they want to discuss. ’’ http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/511851/Kate-Gerry-McCann-pull-out-of-TV-appearance-Lorraine-Amaral-libel-case
Whichever way I look at this decision I can't quite decide if it's logical. I understand the basic premise; 'we want to appeal for people to search for Madeleine and this will distract from it'.
I have seen the McCanns being interviewed and they became quite adept at answering questions with the answers they wanted to give. Asked about 'neglect' they talked about who the 'real' criminal was, for example. Has that politician style skill deserted them?
Much has been said about how Amaral's book harmed the search. They are turning down opportunities to reiterate that. They said that's why they brought the action and they hinted that it was the reason they won the first hearing. Are they afraid to admit that it had nothing to do with the first judgement?
Who is harming the search now? If they try to suggest a causal connection between the appeal judgement and their failure to appeal on 3rd May they will fail. It's obviously their decision for whatever reason, and it looks like they have no answers to any questions that could be asked.
I don't think even sceptics realise the damage that this latest ruling has caused both in financial and emotional terms. The McCanns are devastated by this ruling, it has scuttled their plans for what was to be a renewed effort to promote the case as they see it and on their terms as victors on a worldwide stage.
Now Amaral is the victor, not only have they lost some €500,000 which was about to come to them in damages but they could very well be facing ruin as Amaral's own damages claim goes to Court.
What happens now is as unpredictable as the next Supreme Court decision.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 30, 2016, 09:22:54 AM
I don't think even sceptics realise the damage that this latest ruling has caused both in financial and emotional terms. The McCanns are devastated by this ruling, it has scuttled their plans for what was to be a renewed effort to promote the case as they see it and on their terms as victors on a worldwide stage.
Now Amaral is the victor, not only have they lost some €500,000 which was about to come to them in damages but they could very well be facing ruin as Amaral's own damages claim go to Court.
Every appearance they have done has been largely on their terms. They have faced very few questions which could be described as probing. At the first hint of searching questions being asked they withdraw.
I suspect the difficulty lies in the actual ruling. The abduction, which the McCanns have broadcast as an indisputable fact since day one has been ruled as being merely a theory. In addition, Amaral's theory has been ruled as having as much weight as theirs, with an equal right to be heard.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: lordpookles on April 30, 2016, 09:52:03 AM
Couldn't help but notice that the British press is not really reporting that the McCanns have lost this libel case and there has been a deluge of other news connected to the case being reported instead, like the burglar theory and lack of PJ cooperation. Take this article in the telegraph published yesterday I believe. It reads as if they have won the libel case - no mention of Amaral winning on appeal at all(check out the timeline at the bottom of the article too). PR efforts maybe?
Couldn't help but notice that the British press is not really reporting that the McCanns have lost this libel case and there has been a deluge of other news connected to the case being reported instead, like the burglar theory and lack of PJ cooperation. Take this article in the telegraph published yesterday I believe. It reads as if they have won the libel case - no mention of Amaral winning on appeal at all(check out the timeline at the bottom of the article too). PR efforts maybe?
The UK press haven't bothered to read, digest, analyse and report on the ins and outs of the damages trial. Reporting has been very sparse, mainly just repeating what the Mccanns have said about it. Why they have failed to provide a balanced and factual account is a mystery.
It's also a mystery why the McCanns expect to be questioned about it. Judging on past form interviewers in the UK would rather cut out their own tongues than ask any questions which would upset them.
Perhaps those who wanted the interviews have become less keen also? It cannot have escaped the media that the abduction has been found by a court of law to be just one theory of what happened to Madeleine. By promoting it as a fact their reporting has been very unbalanced. Can they continue with that bias indefinitely or are they beginning to feel the need to mention the lack of evidence for the theory and the existence of other, equally valid, theories?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 30, 2016, 10:41:03 AM
I don't think even sceptics realise the damage that this latest ruling has caused both in financial and emotional terms. The McCanns are devastated by this ruling, it has scuttled their plans for what was to be a renewed effort to promote the case as they see it and on their terms as victors on a worldwide stage.
Now Amaral is the victor, not only have they lost some €500,000 which was about to come to them in damages but they could very well be facing ruin as Amaral's own damages claim goes to Court.
What happens now is as unpredictable as the next Supreme Court decision.
It is not beyond the realms of possibility they will face a rather large bill from the revenue. The case was personal against Sr Amaral and nothing to do with "The Fund Ltd" but if the bills are paid from the fund the money used may be viewed as income or dividend on which tax is payable. https://www.gov.uk/running-a-limited-company/taking-money-out-of-a-limited-company
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 30, 2016, 10:48:31 AM
The UK press haven't bothered to read, digest, analyse and report on the ins and outs of the damages trial. Reporting has been very sparse, mainly just repeating what the Mccanns have said about it. Why they have failed to provide a balanced and factual account is a mystery.
It's also a mystery why the McCanns expect to be questioned about it. Judging on past form interviewers in the UK would rather cut out their own tongues than ask any questions which would upset them.
Perhaps those who wanted the interviews have become less keen also? It cannot have escaped the media that the abduction has been found by a court of law to be just one theory of what happened to Madeleine. By promoting it as a fact their reporting has been very unbalanced. Can they continue with that bias indefinitely or are they beginning to feel the need to mention the lack of evidence for the theory and the existence of other, equally valid, theories?
Some people believe in their own publicity, sadly. Their 'stories' are being pulled apart, slowly but surely, no wonder they are seething! Their bubble has burst I fear, and they have no where to hide in an open public forum which they courted and controlled for so long. The other theories like leaving the house through an unlocked door and wandering into some kind of trouble was vehemently denied by Kate N Gerry, WHY? PR perhaps or fear of abandonment claims?
We have heard for so long it wasn't their fault....hmmm
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 30, 2016, 11:25:48 AM
No ... they don't have an age progressed image at the moment ... I believe they intend to commission one.
Just a reminder ... Tuesday is the ninth anniversary of Madeleine McCann's disappearance ... I don't know why they have have pulled out of a vehicle to publicise her, possibly Mr Amaral's appeal court victory might have a bearing or it may not.
I have no problem at all with his following being happy about his victory ... but find it just a tad below the belt at the glee being evidenced that on the ninth anniversary of their daughter's disappearance they feel unable to take the opportunity to publicise her for whatever reason.
There is no valid reason I can think of which justifies declining to publicise Madeleine's disappearance on the anniversary.
They have insisted that their priority has always been the search. The world wide publicity was to help the search. The Fund was for the search. Being made arguidos didn't worry them personally, but it harmed the search. All the libel money paid out by UK newspapers went into the fund for the search. Kate's book was written to raise more money for the search. The damages trial happened because Amaral's book harmed the search. Every penny awarded to them by the first judgement was going to be spent on resuming the search if it became necessary.
Now it seems that avoiding questions about the defeat in Portugal is more important than promoting the search.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 30, 2016, 11:38:49 AM
There is no valid reason I can think of which justifies declining to publicise Madeleine's disappearance on the anniversary.
They have insisted that their priority has always been the search. The world wide publicity was to help the search. The Fund was for the search. Being made arguidos didn't worry them personally, but it harmed the search. All the libel money paid out by UK newspapers went into the fund for the search. Kate's book was written to raise more money for the search. The damages trial happened because Amaral's book harmed the search. Every penny awarded to them by the first judgement was going to be spent on resuming the search if it became necessary. Now it seems that avoiding questions about the defeat in Portugal is more important than promoting the search.
And also the thought of being questioned about abandonment claims and PJ not getting requests about burglars regarding the 'last line' of eniqiry. This is even too huge for Clarance to spin.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 30, 2016, 11:39:24 AM
I don't think even sceptics realise the damage that this latest ruling has caused both in financial and emotional terms. The McCanns are devastated by this ruling, it has scuttled their plans for what was to be a renewed effort to promote the case as they see it and on their terms as victors on a worldwide stage.
Now Amaral is the victor, not only have they lost some €500,000 which was about to come to them in damages but they could very well be facing ruin as Amaral's own damages claim goes to Court.
What happens now is as unpredictable as the next Supreme Court decision.
while I would think they are devastated I don't think they face financial ruin. They have had and still have the opportunity to earn millions from personal appearances...magazine articles and books. All this money could be placed in trust for the benefit of the twins...their house could be placed in a similar trust and would be out of reach of any court judgements. I know several very wealthy poeple who actually own absolutely nothing but live a very nice lifestyle
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 30, 2016, 12:59:11 PM
while I would think they are devastated I don't think they face financial ruin. They have had and still have the opportunity to earn millions from personal appearances...magazine articles and books. All this money could be placed in trust for the benefit of the twins...their house could be placed in a similar trust and would be out of reach of any court judgements. I know several very wealthy poeple who actually own absolutely nothing but live a very nice lifestyle
Did Gonçalo Amaral have the benefit of such Trusts?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 30, 2016, 01:01:10 PM
while I would think they are devastated I don't think they face financial ruin. They have had and still have the opportunity to earn millions from personal appearances...magazine articles and books. All this money could be placed in trust for the benefit of the twins...their house could be placed in a similar trust and would be out of reach of any court judgements. I know several very wealthy poeple who actually own absolutely nothing but live a very nice lifestyle
Oh you mean act like the celebrities they have become, but sadly as the pandoras box opens, all sort will out, some have shown this week as not favorable, and then again they have given up on this limelight malarky they have already pulled out of Lorraine 'show' to ply their wares...
Making money from a missing child is completely abhorrant.
Oh and don't say it is for a search, people have tried for years....NOTHING.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 30, 2016, 01:05:17 PM
while I would think they are devastated I don't think they face financial ruin. They have had and still have the opportunity to earn millions from personal appearances...magazine articles and books. All this money could be placed in trust for the benefit of the twins...their house could be placed in a similar trust and would be out of reach of any court judgements. I know several very wealthy poeple who actually own absolutely nothing but live a very nice lifestyle
If it was not done some considerable time ago then they have probably missed that boat.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2016, 01:06:22 PM
Did Gonçalo Amaral have the benefit of such Trusts?
may well be he was taken by surprise and did not have chance to make any arrangements. None of the Mccanns assets are in portugal and available to be frozen....I still cannot see what grounds amaral has to sue the McCanns
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2016, 01:07:28 PM
while I would think they are devastated I don't think they face financial ruin. They have had and still have the opportunity to earn millions from personal appearances...magazine articles and books. All this money could be placed in trust for the benefit of the twins...their house could be placed in a similar trust and would be out of reach of any court judgements. I know several very wealthy poeple who actually own absolutely nothing but live a very nice lifestyle
Did I read somewhere that their friend Sir Phillip Green is quite good at spreading his assets around? Maybe he could advise them.
It sounds to me as if the Supreme Court should take some precautions if they are asked to hear an appeal by the McCanns. Everything they owe to date should be lodged with the court plus a sum to cover the appeal costs if they lose again.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 30, 2016, 01:27:00 PM
Did I read somewhere that their friend Sir Phillip Green is quite good at spreading his assets around? Maybe he could advise them.
It sounds to me as if the Supreme Court should take some precautions if they are asked to hear an appeal by the McCanns. Everything they owe to date should be lodged with the court plus a sum to cover the appeal costs if they lose again.
They could probably be discussing that as we speak:) I cannot see a reason for them to appeal, the judgement was very clear. I suspect they are panic stricken all seems to be happening at the one time. I do wonder why they cancelled Lorraine show...
It would appear,contrary to previous belief by the media, the public at large are not that bothered about searching for their daughter or sending money in to support their fanciful corporate jiggery pockery re hiding (moving)parts of the funs to .... well who know.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on April 30, 2016, 01:29:58 PM
Did I read somewhere that their friend Sir Phillip Green is quite good at spreading his assets around? Maybe he could advise them.
It sounds to me as if the Supreme Court should take some precautions if they are asked to hear an appeal by the McCanns. Everything they owe to date should be lodged with the court plus a sum to cover the appeal costs if they lose again.
There are plenty of poeple who could advise them. The point I am making is that they will not be ruined financially. They have never tried to profit personally from their situation.... If I was them i would start thinking about the twins future and put a serious amount of money into trust for them....money they could easily make now as I have dscribed
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on April 30, 2016, 01:34:17 PM
(snip)... They have had and still have the opportunity to earn millions from personal appearances... (snip)
But Davel didn't the spokesperson tell us they weren't paid a cent for the Oprah appearance?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on April 30, 2016, 01:42:27 PM
Davel how can you suggest they charge for appearances?. The aim is to publicise the search, not to charge money, and here is proof straight from the horse's mouth, that even for the biggest appearance ever, not a single nickel was received.
'Mr Mitchell played down speculation of a multi-million pound deal for the interview. "Oprah Winfrey does not pay for interviews," he said. "Kate and Gerry will not be receiving a single dollar for this and neither will the fund for Madeleine.' http://news.sky.com/story/685479/mccanns-to-appear-on-oprah-winfrey-show
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 30, 2016, 01:43:40 PM
"A spokesperson for ITV told Mirror Celebs: "The McCanns have never been booked or confirmed to come and appear on Lorraine next Tuesday."
It was reported that Kate and Gerry were going to talk on the Lorraine show, nine years after their daughter disappeared from their holiday apartment in Praia da Luz, Portugal in May 2007, according to the Daily Star."
The daily star should be sued where ever did they get that info from?
"The couple, from Rothley, Leics, vowed to spend “every penny” of the cash on the hunt for their missing daughter.
(where have we heard that before)
But those plans were put on hold last May when Amaral, the officer tasked with finding Madeleine, lodged an appeal.
aw damn that man for crushing a funded seach for their child, no one is bothering to look for her because of him.... oh wait....
They are taking the case to Portugal’s Supreme Court - which will have the final say on whether Amaral should pay damages.
Oh Interesting,what money are they spending to do that? not that pesky fund which was being used to search for ... Good luck with the Supreme court, demand a recount of the judges votes,or just tell them you are British and won't stand for this behaviour Gerry.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2016, 01:50:45 PM
Davel how can you suggest they charge for appearances?. The aim is to publicise the search, not to charge money, and here is proof straight from the horse's mouth, that even for the biggest appearance ever, not a single nickel was received.
'Mr Mitchell played down speculation of a multi-million pound deal for the interview. "Oprah Winfrey does not pay for interviews," he said. "Kate and Gerry will not be receiving a single dollar for this and neither will the fund for Madeleine.' http://news.sky.com/story/685479/mccanns-to-appear-on-oprah-winfrey-show
things are changing...John points to potential financial ruin.....I don't see it hapenning
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on April 30, 2016, 01:55:30 PM
There are plenty of poeple who could advise them. The point I am making is that they will not be ruined financially. They have never tried to profit personally from their situation.... If I was them i would start thinking about the twins future and put a serious amount of money into trust for them....money they could easily make now as I have dscribed
Well it was never about money, was it? I think the days when they could make serious money from interviews may be over. No-one is going to pay serious money to hear the same old song in my opinion. They will need to offer something more now - everybody knows that song off by heart.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 30, 2016, 02:01:12 PM
Well it was never about money, was it? I think the days when they could make serious money from interviews may be over. No-one is going to pay serious money to hear the same old song in my opinion. They will need to offer something more now - everybody knows that song off by heart.
is that the fat lady singing?.. so those who followed the pied piper and his musical array should step aside and listen to how they have indeed been played' like a symphony'. Many theories will be discussed not just one.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on April 30, 2016, 02:15:10 PM
The bottom line , it's on sale, and that really gets to you.
IMO of course.
Do you know how many were sold before the ban ?
You are stating opinion as fact again You are way off the mark of you think the book sale "really gets to me" I'm just an interested observer I would have thought those who were interested have already read it
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 30, 2016, 02:45:20 PM
You are stating opinion as fact again You are way off the mark of you think the book sale "really gets to me" I'm just an interested observer I would have thought those who were interested have already read it
Wait and see.
It's just started.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on April 30, 2016, 02:48:05 PM
You are stating opinion as fact again You are way off the mark of you think the book sale "really gets to me" I'm just an interested observer I would have thought those who were interested have already read it
I would have thought Amaral should have added to the original book or even published an update of the events which have just been played out in Court. The original content is well past its sell-by date these days.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on April 30, 2016, 02:50:21 PM
The important thing is that the book is no longer banned and is available. A friend saw four copies of the book at the paper shop at Portimão hospital and the next day there none left. There are copies at the paper shop in the town where I live.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2016, 03:34:22 PM
The important thing is that the book is no longer banned and is available. A friend saw four copies of the book at the paper shop at Portimão hospital and the next day there none left. There are copies at the paper shop in the town where I live.
#its important its on sale but no good if it isn't selling
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 30, 2016, 03:46:53 PM
But Davel didn't the spokesperson tell us they weren't paid a cent for the Oprah appearance?
From what I have read recently they have tirned down interviews...the point i am making is that they do have the opportunity to earn a lot of money if they wish and this money could be put out of the way of any one trying to sue them
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on April 30, 2016, 04:13:07 PM
From what I have read recently they have tirned down interviews...the point i am making is that they do have the opportunity to earn a lot of money if they wish and this money could be put out of the way of any one trying to sue them
What is the aim of doing TV appeals? IMO it is to appeal to the viewers for information Davel. Yes it's easy to protect money from lawsuits by paying it into a trust or ltd company or similar, but the issue here is appealing to the viewers, not seeing how much broadcasters will bid.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on May 02, 2016, 12:27:25 AM
The PJGA fund "contains adequate funds for a sound legal defence should the case be brought to Supreme Court". http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/statement_26.html
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 02, 2016, 12:29:20 AM
Great news, no sane person would support an unlevel playng field
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 02, 2016, 12:32:07 AM
What is the aim of doing TV appeals? IMO it is to appeal to the viewers for information Davel. Yes it's easy to protect money from lawsuits by paying it into a trust or ltd company or similar, but the issue here is appealing to the viewers, not seeing how much broadcasters will bid.
Every penny is always spent on looking for maddie..now a supporter suggest they hide it all lol and not spend i t on looking, ooerr
But amaral has no right to do what he wants with his money (when its not frozen by the mccanns with the epithet he deserves to be mserable)
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on May 02, 2016, 12:39:05 AM
The PJGA fund "contains adequate funds for a sound legal defence should the case be brought to Supreme Court". http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/statement_26.html
Therefore it is recognised that in the event of the failure of Mr Amaral's appeal ... there was a contingency plan in place for him to take his case to the Supreme Court.
Some Amaral supporters have derided the McCann option to take the same avenue of appeal ... wonder why the difference in attitude to the right of one party and the same right of the other?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 02, 2016, 12:43:25 AM
Therefore it is recognised that in the event of the failure of Mr Amaral's appeal ... there was a contingency plan in place for him to take his case to the Supreme Court.
Some Amaral supporters have derided the McCann option to take the same avenue of appeal ... wonder why the difference in attitude to the right of one party and the same right of the other?
People donating to the madeleine fund did not donate for vexatious mccann litigations, nether dd thy donate to be asked further to BUY posters and t shrts
Amarals defence fund was clear from the off...no comparison whatsoever
Sour grapes dont help to fnd maddie do they
Be SEEING ya soon
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on May 02, 2016, 01:02:25 AM
Therefore it is recognised that in the event of the failure of Mr Amaral's appeal ... there was a contingency plan in place for him to take his case to the Supreme Court. ...(snip)
Yes that's correct Brietta but is now hypothetical because he won the appeal. Once again I'm predicting that his opponents will not appeal to the supreme court.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on May 02, 2016, 01:07:43 AM
Yes that's correct Brietta but is now hypothetical because he won the appeal. Once again I'm predicting that his opponents will not appeal to the supreme court.
The McCanns have exactly the same right of appeal that Mr Amaral had ... two sides of the same coin. Whether or not they exercise it is entirely a matter for them. Whether or not the supreme court allows it to be heard is entirely a matter for the supreme court.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on May 02, 2016, 01:21:39 AM
The McCanns have exactly the same right of appeal that Mr Amaral had ... two sides of the same coin. Whether or not they exercise it is entirely a matter for them. Whether or not the supreme court allows it to be heard is entirely a matter for the supreme court.
Agreed. However if a hypothetically a lawyer advises them that an appeal is unlikely to succeed, then the optimum action is presumably to not make the appeal. Anyway we should know in about 20 days? The PJGA site has said they will keep people updated "We will endeavour to keep you informed as and when we receive further information regarding the re-appeal" http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Admin on May 02, 2016, 01:40:58 AM
Therefore it is recognised that in the event of the failure of Mr Amaral's appeal ... there was a contingency plan in place for him to take his case to the Supreme Court.
Some Amaral supporters have derided the McCann option to take the same avenue of appeal ... wonder why the difference in attitude to the right of one party and the same right of the other?
The Supreme Court will only consider points of law so unless they have changed their minds recently I cannot see them entertaing this case any further.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 02, 2016, 01:43:37 AM
Agreed. However if a hypothetically a lawyer advises them that an appeal is unlikely to succeed, then the optimum action is presumably to not make the appeal. Anyway we should know in about 20 days? The PJGA site has said they will keep people updated "We will endeavour to keep you informed as and when we receive further information regarding the re-appeal" http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
Fantastic, thank you
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on May 02, 2016, 01:44:24 AM
Agreed. However if a hypothetically a lawyer advises them that an appeal is unlikely to succeed, then the optimum action is presumably to not make the appeal. Anyway we should know in about 20 days? The PJGA site has said they will keep people updated "We will endeavour to keep you informed as and when we receive further information regarding the re-appeal" http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
I disagree.
If the appeal is allowed they should proceed.
If the appeal fails and they are advised they have grounds to proceed to the ECHR they should proceed.
Mr Amaral may have the right to express his opinion but the McCanns have the right not to be traduced by him when he exercises his freedom of expression.
I think his behaviour since winning the last round of the case against him has been ill considered and immature ... and also premature.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on May 02, 2016, 01:58:24 AM
The Supreme Court will only consider points of law so unless they have changed their minds recently I cannot see them entertaing this case any further.
One consideration for the supreme court might be the inadvisability of the appeal court judge who had already ruled against the McCanns in the same case, not to have stood aside when considering Mr Amaral's appeal against the ruling of the lower court.
I think it would cut direct to the chase were the Portuguese supreme court to refuse leave to appeal.
It would undoubtedly speed up an approach to the ECHR. Where I very much doubt they would be denied the opportunity to present a case against the Portuguese State which I think they would have a very good chance of winning.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Admin on May 02, 2016, 02:08:16 AM
Recent statistics with respect to Portugal and the ECHR.
The Court dealt with 189 applications concerning Portugal in 2015, of which 169 were declared inadmissible or struck out. It delivered 20 judgments (concerning 20 applications), of which 16 found at least one violation of the European Convention on Human Rights.
Recent statistics with respect to Portugal and the ECHR.
The Court dealt with 189 applications concerning Portugal in 2015, of which 169 were declared inadmissible or struck out. It delivered 20 judgments (concerning 20 applications), of which 16 found at least one violation of the European Convention on Human Rights.
Thanks, Admin. A quick scroll down reveals that libel cases figure, I didn't expect that ... will make for interesting reading. Tomorrow though ~ (today actually).
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 02, 2016, 07:24:50 AM
One consideration for the supreme court might be the inadvisability of the appeal court judge who had already ruled against the McCanns in the same case, not to have stood aside when considering Mr Amaral's appeal against the ruling of the lower court.
I can just see a ne'er do well up before a magistrate saying you can't try me, you fined me last month.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 02, 2016, 07:43:16 AM
One consideration for the supreme court might be the inadvisability of the appeal court judge who had already ruled against the McCanns in the same case, not to have stood aside when considering Mr Amaral's appeal against the ruling of the lower court.
I think it would cut direct to the chase were the Portuguese supreme court to refuse leave to appeal.
It would undoubtedly speed up an approach to the ECHR. Where I very much doubt they would be denied the opportunity to present a case against the Portuguese State which I think they would have a very good chance of winning.
That won't wash.
The mccanns delayed court proceedings because of their objection to one of the judges, who simply followed Portuguese Law.
The Mccanns have made enemies through their arrogance and self-righteousness, and they have learned the hard way, it doesn't pay, metaphorically or otherwise to mess with the law.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on May 02, 2016, 08:46:39 AM
The mccanns delayed court proceedings because of their objection to one of the judges, who simply followed Portuguese Law.
The Mccanns have made enemies through their arrogance and self-righteousness, and they have learned the hard way, it doesn't pay, metaphorically or otherwise to mess with the law.
The McCanns made a formal complaint about the judge's nomination and it was not accepted. They appealed and their appeal was rejected. They went through the proper legal channels and failed. Ponto final.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 02, 2016, 08:52:57 AM
The McCanns made a formal complaint about the judge's nomination and it was not accepted. They appealed and their appeal was rejected. They went through the proper legal channels and failed. Ponto final.
Thank you for the information Montclair.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 02, 2016, 09:22:27 AM
The McCanns made a formal complaint about the judge's nomination and it was not accepted. They appealed and their appeal was rejected. They went through the proper legal channels and failed. Ponto final.
Meanwhile Isabel Duarte earns another tidy bundle.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2016, 09:30:33 AM
If you read the book...which it appears many posters here have not...you will see the Mccanns had no choice but to sue
Q – Your English lawyers already have a translated copy and they are analysing it. Do you intend to sue Gonçalo Amaral?
Gerry – At this moment we are focused on what we can do to find Madeleine and not in suing anyone.
Kate – All that I am going to say about this – because I'm not going to waste any time on Mr Amaral – is that as a professional and as a person his behaviour has been a disgrace.
The Expresso interview, 06 September 2008
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id163.html
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2016, 09:35:57 AM
Q – Your English lawyers already have a translated copy and they are analysing it. Do you intend to sue Gonçalo Amaral?
Gerry – At this moment we are focused on what we can do to find Madeleine and not in suing anyone.
Kate – All that I am going to say about this – because I'm not going to waste any time on Mr Amaral – is that as a professional and as a person his behaviour has been a disgrace.
so at the time the statement was made the lawyers had not analysed the book....once analysed it seems they decided they would have to sue
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 02, 2016, 09:36:39 AM
If you read the book...which it appears many posters here have not...you will see the Mccanns had no choice but to sue
Oh but they did have a choice. They could have cooperated with the investigation, stayed in Portugal and taken part in a proper reconstruction. Remember what the official archiving report stated...the McCanns lost the opportunity to demonstrate what they had claimed.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 02, 2016, 09:39:37 AM
If they had left it alone, very few people would have ever heard of him.
They, by their civil action have given him worldwide publicity, and as a consequence he will make money.
Meanwhile the mccanns can seethe away.
If you read the part judgement now added to the opening post, that is exactly what the three appeal court judges found.
And because from the proved matter results that – apart from it being about facts that have been profusely published in the inquiry and even publicised through an initiative of the Republic’s Prosecutor General’s Office – it was the subjects of the appeal themselves [Kate and Gerry McCann] who, benefiting from an easy access, multiplied themselves in interviews and interventions in national and international media, one must conclude that it was them who, voluntarily, limited their rights to reservation and to the intimacy of private life.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 02, 2016, 09:40:53 AM
Oh but they did have a choice. They could have cooperated with the investigation, stayed in Portugal and taken part in a proper reconstruction. Remember what the official archiving report stated...the McCanns lost the opportunity to demonstrate what they had claimed.
they fled portugal as soon as they could didnt they??
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 02, 2016, 09:41:18 AM
so at the time the statement was made the lawyers had not analysed the book....once analysed it seems they decided they would have to sue
They won't learn anything from it. The McCann just want you to believe what they tell you.
Q – Former inspector Gonçalo Amaral remains convinced of your involvement in Madeleine's disappearance. Did you read 'The Truth of the Lie', the book that he wrote?
Kate and Gerry – No.
Kate – Why would I?
Gerry – I won't learn anything from reading it.
Q – It was a success in Portugal.
Gerry – Was it? How many copies did it sell?
Q – Approximately 200 thousand. Next week, it is released in Spain.
Gerry – That is what can be called illicit enrichment.
Q – Your English lawyers already have a translated copy and they are analysing it. Do you intend to sue Gonçalo Amaral?
Gerry – At this moment we are focused on what we can do to find Madeleine and not in suing anyone.
Kate – All that I am going to say about this – because I'm not going to waste any time on Mr Amaral – is that as a professional and as a person his behaviour has been a disgrace.
Q – Aren't you curious to know what the book says?
Kate – What for? It must be nothing but a load of rubbish. It is so secondary… It certainly won't help to find our daughter. My consolation is that on the cover . We never called her anything like that. My consolation is that on the cover he calls her Maddie, the name that the media have invented. We never called her anything like that.
The media didn't Invent that name. All close friends of them referred to Madeleine as Maddy. The nannies referred to her as Maddy. The person who came to the night creche and informed them heard shouting for Maddy. Why does Kate spread BS?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 02, 2016, 09:43:10 AM
No, they fled Portugal as soon as they thought things were getting difficult for them. Quite happy to stay while things seemed to be going their way.
Not quite true jassi, they had to stay while designated arguidos or face arrest.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2016, 09:50:26 AM
i think we need to cahange the title of the thread...posters here do not seem yo understand the idea of sticking to a topic
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 02, 2016, 09:50:40 AM
Perhaps the thread is coming to its natural end.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Benice on May 02, 2016, 09:56:58 AM
Why would they want to stay in a country where the police had decided they were guilty of a crime which they knew they had not committed? What would be the point?
The whole idea that they should have stayed and actually helped the police to pin the crime on them is too ridiculous for words. They would have to be insane to do that.
IMO
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 02, 2016, 09:57:41 AM
Yes, I have removed my comment and those associated with it.
Please stay on topic.
Amaral winning this appeal must be the greatest setback the McCanns have had in nine years. It will be nine years tomorrow since Maddie disappeared.
A year ago today the papers were full of the McCann's pain and heartbreak and how online trolls were donating to a gofundme appeal for the legal bills of a 'shamed' detective. How times change.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2016, 10:32:00 AM
A year ago today the papers were full of the McCann's pain and heartbreak and how online trolls were donating to a gofundme appeal for the legal bills of a 'shamed' detective. How times change.
it isn't over yet and hopefully amaral will be exposed for all the things he got wrong about the case
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 02, 2016, 10:38:45 AM
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 02, 2016, 11:20:56 AM
I think it's quite unlikely that the Supreme Court is going to overturn the findings of the Appeal Court. Perhaps someone would like to suggest what grounds there may be?
Please note Amaral's 'lies' are not relevant and the legal restrictions on Amaral relied upon by the first judge were rejected by the Appeal Court judges.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 02, 2016, 11:50:58 AM
If they had left it alone, very few people would have ever heard of him.
They, by their civil action have given him worldwide publicity, and as a consequence he will make money.
Meanwhile the mccanns can seethe away.
You mean he wouldn't have made a documentary ... distributed a DVD ... made innumerable media interviews and television appearances as an expert on all things McCann?
If he had stopped at the book, I think you are correct that he would have faded into oblivion ... but he wasn't going to allow that to interfere with his new found media career, was he?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 02, 2016, 12:17:41 PM
You mean he wouldn't have made a documentary ... distributed a DVD ... made innumerable media interviews and television appearances as an expert on all things McCann?
If he had stopped at the book, I think you are correct that he would have faded into oblivion ... but he wasn't going to allow that to interfere with his new found media career, was he?
Just as well he didn't then, for otherwise,who would you all have found to slag off for all these years?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on May 02, 2016, 12:55:35 PM
You mean he wouldn't have made a documentary ... distributed a DVD ... made innumerable media interviews and television appearances as an expert on all things McCann?
If he had stopped at the book, I think you are correct that he would have faded into oblivion ... but he wasn't going to allow that to interfere with his new found media career, was he?
The Mccanns as you know have used the media extensively from Day 1, and subsequently, courtesy of their PR team and Clarence Mitchell.
The Mccanns too, could have slipped into the background as well. I believe their egos came to the fore, and Gerry Mccann especially enjoyed the spotlight (though clearly not in his recent TV appearance).
Can you tell me how appearing say on the Oprah Winfrey show helped the search for Madeleine ?
Having watched that program, it is clearly discernible they enjoyed being in the spotlight, though as to whether their host believed them is another matter entirely.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 02, 2016, 01:27:19 PM
Not quite true jassi, they had to stay while designated arguidos or face arrest.
Whilst strictly speaking off-topic, the McCanns were arguidos when they returned to the UK, and remained so until the case was archived.
And to get back on topic, I'm finding it easier just to wait a shortish time to see if an appeal is launched with the SC. It would appear at the moment that Gonçalo Amaral has a much freer hand than normal to pursue his ventures, so the McCanns need to think carefully about whether an appeal is worth it or not.
Am I right in thinking the original award was only made against Amaral, and not the book publishers, TVI, and the DVD publishers (if they were actually involved in the trial)? Seems odd that Amaral got singled out, since the TVI 'documentary' struck me as inflicting much more significant damage.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on May 02, 2016, 01:36:47 PM
The Mccanns as you know have used the media extensively from Day 1, and subsequently, courtesy of their PR team and Clarence Mitchell.
The Mccanns too, could have slipped into the background as well. I believe their egos came to the fore, and Gerry Mccann especially enjoyed the spotlight (though clearly not in his recent TV appearance).
Can you tell me how appearing say on the Oprah Winfrey show helped the search for Madeleine ?
Having watched that program, it is clearly discernible they enjoyed being in the spotlight, though as to whether their host believed them is another matter entirely.
Their media appearances were for one reason only and that was to keep Madeleine in the public eye and consciousness.
The measure of their success is in proportion to the vilification heaped upon them for doing so and the fact that Madeleine is still known nine years after her disappearance.
Whilst strictly speaking off-topic, the McCanns were arguidos when they returned to the UK, and remained so until the case was archived.
And to get back on topic, I'm finding it easier just to wait a shortish time to see if an appeal is launched with the SC. It would appear at the moment that Gonçalo Amaral has a much freer hand than normal to pursue his ventures, so the McCanns need to think carefully about whether an appeal is worth it or not.
Am I right in thinking the original award was only made against Amaral, and not the book publishers, TVI, and the DVD publishers (if they were actually involved in the trial)? Seems odd that Amaral got singled out, since the TVI 'documentary' struck me as inflicting much more significant damage.
How long have they got left - a couple of weeks ?
Have they anything to lose by appealing ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 02, 2016, 01:47:21 PM
Their media appearances were for one reason only and that was to keep Madeleine in the public eye and consciousness.
The measure of their success is in proportion to the vilification heaped upon them for doing so and the fact that Madeleine is still known nine years after her disappearance.
Whilst strictly speaking off-topic, the McCanns were arguidos when they returned to the UK, and remained so until the case was archived.
And to get back on topic, I'm finding it easier just to wait a shortish time to see if an appeal is launched with the SC. It would appear at the moment that Gonçalo Amaral has a much freer hand than normal to pursue his ventures, so the McCanns need to think carefully about whether an appeal is worth it or not.
Am I right in thinking the original award was only made against Amaral, and not the book publishers, TVI, and the DVD publishers (if they were actually involved in the trial)? Seems odd that Amaral got singled out, since the TVI 'documentary' struck me as inflicting much more significant damage.
I have mixed feeling about whether an appeal by the McCanns is worth it or not.
As much as I hate injustice - It seems to me that our two countries are not just poles apart when it comes to the subject of Libel,- we're not even on the same planet.
Although I can understand PT wanting to emphasize the importance of Freedom of Expression since becoming a democracy, that particular principle appears to have taken on such major - almost god-like proportions - that IMO it has become detrimental to the principles of the right to the presumption of innocence and also the right not to have your reputation trashed and your character assassinated by all and sundry.
Furthermore - I do not understand why a judicial system would not see anything wrong in allowing a panel of 3 judges to include a judge who had already found in favour of Amaral in a previous case on the same subject.
But there again I don't understand why a policeman who was made an arguido - suspected of wrong-doing in his previous and only other missing child case was allowed to be in charge of another case - while that matter was unresolved..
Neither do I understand why a woman who a court found to have been the victim of torture during interrogation by officers of the PJ should still be in prison while the perpetrators of her torture remain at large.
I can't see any of the above being allowed in the UK.
With such major differences in the attitudes and culture which prevail between our two countries when it comes to Libel - I find it difficult to believe that the McCanns will achieve justice in Portugal.
If the case had been held in this country the McCanns would have won hands down.
AIMHO
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: faithlilly on May 02, 2016, 02:18:45 PM
I have mixed feeling about whether an appeal by the McCanns is worth it or not.
As much as I hate injustice - It seems to me that our two countries are not just poles apart when it comes to the subject of Libel,- we're not even on the same planet.
Although I can understand PT wanting to emphasize the importance of Freedom of Expression since becoming a democracy, that particular principle appears to have taken on such major - almost god-like proportions - that IMO it has become detrimental to the principles of the right to the presumption of innocence and also the right not to have your reputation trashed and your character assassinated by all and sundry.
Furthermore - I do not understand why a judicial system would not see anything wrong in allowing a panel of 3 judges to include a judge who had already found in favour of Amaral in a previous case on the same subject.
But there again I don't understand why a policeman who was made an arguido - suspected of wrong-doing in his previous and only other missing child case was allowed to be in charge of another case - while that matter was unresolved..
Neither do I understand why a woman who a court found to have been the victim of torture during interrogation by officers of the PJ should still be in prison while the perpetrators of her torture remain at large.
I can't see any of the above being allowed in the UK.
With such major differences in the attitudes and culture which prevail between our two countries when it comes to Libel - I find it difficult to believe that the McCanns will achieve justice in Portugal.
If the case had been held in this country the McCanns would have won hands down.
AIMHO
Justice UK style. Justice has already been served in the country the alleged libel occurred.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on May 02, 2016, 02:23:26 PM
As much as I hate injustice - It seems to me that our two countries are not just poles apart when it comes to the subject of Libel,- we're not even on the same planet.
Although I can understand PT wanting to emphasize the importance of Freedom of Expression since becoming a democracy, that particular principle appears to have taken on such major - almost god-like proportions - that IMO it has become detrimental to the principles of the right to the presumption of innocence and also the right not to have your reputation trashed and your character assassinated by all and sundry.
Furthermore - I do not understand why a judicial system would not see anything wrong in allowing a panel of 3 judges to include a judge who had already found in favour of Amaral in a previous case on the same subject.
I think people sometimes forget that although Portugal and England have had much in common over the centuries that they are two entirely different cultures with beliefs and Laws to match.
A judge is entitled to his or her own view on matters. Previous decisions should have little or no bearing on current ones.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2016, 02:28:44 PM
I have mixed feeling about whether an appeal by the McCanns is worth it or not.
As much as I hate injustice - It seems to me that our two countries are not just poles apart when it comes to the subject of Libel,- we're not even on the same planet.
Although I can understand PT wanting to emphasize the importance of Freedom of Expression since becoming a democracy, that particular principle appears to have taken on such major - almost god-like proportions - that IMO it has become detrimental to the principles of the right to the presumption of innocence and also the right not to have your reputation trashed and your character assassinated by all and sundry.
Furthermore - I do not understand why a judicial system would not see anything wrong in allowing a panel of 3 judges to include a judge who had already found in favour of Amaral in a previous case on the same subject.
But there again I don't understand why a policeman who was made an arguido - suspected of wrong-doing in his previous and only other missing child case was allowed to be in charge of another case - while that matter was unresolved..
Neither do I understand why a woman who a court found to have been the victim of torture during interrogation by officers of the PJ should still be in prison while the perpetrators of her torture remain at large.
I can't see any of the above being allowed in the UK.
With such major differences in the attitudes and culture which prevail between our two countries when it comes to Libel - I find it difficult to believe that the McCanns will achieve justice in Portugal.
If the case had been held in this country the McCanns would have won hands down.
AIMHO
I think they have every intention of going to the ECHR where I believe they do have a case...to do this they have to appeal to the supreme court first
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: faithlilly on May 02, 2016, 02:29:26 PM
But there again I don't understand why a policeman who was made an arguido - suspected of wrong-doing in his previous and only other missing child case was allowed to be in charge of another case - while that matter was unresolved..
Neither do I understand why a woman who a court found to have been the victim of torture during interrogation by officers of the PJ should still be in prison while the perpetrators of her torture remain at large.
I can't see any of the above being allowed in the UK.
With such major differences in the attitudes and culture which prevail between our two countries when it comes to Libel - I find it difficult to believe that the McCanns will achieve justice in Portugal.
If the case had been held in this country the McCanns would have won hands down.
AIMHO
Amaral was an arguido because a complaint had been made against him. If every policeman who ever had a complaint registered against him was suspended we wouldn't have much of a police force left. In countries like Portugal and Spain it is a common tactic for criminals to register a complaint against police officers, part of the course I'm afraid.
Leonor Cipriano was indeed tortured but she is also convicted of murder by her own admission BEFORE being tortured.
The McCanns chose to raise the damages claim in Portugal after taking counsel from Mr Duarte. They achieved part of what they sought at the trial but the Appeal Court has reversed that decision. That is the Law in Portugal.
If they want to raise an action in the UK they are free to do so but it is unlikely to succeed since the events were instigated and played out in Portugal.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2016, 02:40:22 PM
Amaral was an arguido because a complaint had been made against him. If every policeman who ever had a complaint registered against him was suspended we wouldn't have much of a police force left. In countries like Portugal and Spain it is a common tactic for criminals to register a complaint against police officers, part of the course I'm afraid.
Leonor Cipriano was indeed tortured but she is also convicted of murder by her own admission BEFORE being tortured.
sorry john but no real evidence has ever been produced to confirm cipriano's confession before being tortured. The only statement to support that was made by the lawyer defending the accused PJ officers and he can hardly be described as impartial
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on May 02, 2016, 02:42:05 PM
Because as davel correctly pointed out, litigants have to exhaust the domestic courts first.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2016, 02:43:20 PM
if the Mccanns cannot win in the courts perhaps they will answer the accusations in a book...as amaral has done.
They will have a lot of ammunition...pictures of cipriano for starters....his poor detective work in the case...his total misunderstanding of the forensics.......would be very interesting
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on May 02, 2016, 02:45:29 PM
sorry john but no real evidence has ever been produced to confirm cipriano's confession before being tortured. The only statement to support that was made by the lawyer defending the accused PJ officers and he can hardly be described as impartial
I'm not getting into this on this thread other than to state that Leonor told police initially that she had an argument with Joana after she returned from the shop. Return witnessed by a neighbour. She admitted to causing her death by hitting her head on a wall. Human blood found on wall and elsewhere. This was why she was indicted and remanded in custody,
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: faithlilly on May 02, 2016, 02:46:17 PM
I'm not getting into this on this thread other than to state that Leonor told vpolice iniutiually she had an argument with Joana after she returned from the shop. She admitted to causing her death by hitting Cher head on a wall. This cwas cwhy she was indicted and remanded in custody,
according to amaral john......as you say this is not the thread to discuss this.....it has been discussed at length and I have seen no real evidence that cipriano confessed before torture despite asking the question many times...children do not die from hitting their heads on walls
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on May 02, 2016, 02:49:31 PM
if the Mccanns cannot win in the courts perhaps they will answer the accusations in a book...as amaral has done.
They will have a lot of ammunition...pictures of cipriano for starters....his poor detective work in the case...his total misunderstanding of the forensics.......would be very interesting
How would that further the search for Madeleine ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2016, 03:03:41 PM
if the Mccanns cannot win in the courts perhaps they will answer the accusations in a book...as amaral has done.
They will have a lot of ammunition...pictures of cipriano for starters....his poor detective work in the case...his total misunderstanding of the forensics.......would be very interesting
An excellent idea, another book, Madeleine II.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 02, 2016, 03:14:39 PM
if the Mccanns cannot win in the courts perhaps they will answer the accusations in a book...as amaral has done.
They will have a lot of ammunition...pictures of cipriano for starters....his poor detective work in the case...his total misunderstanding of the forensics.......would be very interesting
The Cipriano case has nothing to do with this one .
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Benice on May 02, 2016, 03:15:45 PM
I think people sometimes forget that although Portugal and England have had much in common over the centuries that they are two entirely different cultures with beliefs and Laws to match.
Snip.
IMO the language barrier and the different customs worked against the McCanns every step of the way.
For example:
Saying 'we let her down' was seen as suspicious - because apparently they thought this meant 'we have let her die'. No-one in this country would make that mistake.
Calling for a priest was seen as suspicious as apparently that is something you only do in PT when someone has died - but which is a normal part of pastoral care in this country when parishioners are in need of comfort.
The Star chart - which as we all know in this country is a way of encouraging and rewarding children - was apparently regarded as a medical chart or a punishment chart in PT who obviously did not understand its purpose.
The differences in culture and language definitely (albeit inevitably) muddied the waters throughout this case and always to the disadvantage of the McCanns IMO.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2016, 03:16:03 PM
IMO the language barrier and the different customs worked against the McCanns every step of the way.
For example:
Saying 'we let her down' was seen as suspicious - because apparently they thought this meant 'we have let her die'. No-one in this country would make that mistake.
Calling for a priest was seen as suspicious as apparently that is something you only do in PT when someone has died - but which is a normal part of pastoral care in this country when parishioners are in need of comfort.
The Star chart - which as we all know in this country is a way of encouraging and rewarding children - was apparently regarded as a medical chart or a punishment chart in PT who obviously did not understand its purpose.
The differences in culture and language definitely (albeit inevitably) muddied the waters throughout this case and always to the disadvantage of the McCanns IMO.
There is much truth in what you post Benice. Its all very well going for a holiday there but one could rue the day if it all goes wrong.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 02, 2016, 03:18:52 PM
if the Mccanns cannot win in the courts perhaps they will answer the accusations in a book...as amaral has done.
They will have a lot of ammunition...pictures of cipriano for starters....his poor detective work in the case...his total misunderstanding of the forensics.......would be very interesting
I fear they won't want to open that particular can of worms davel. Metodo 3 and Marcos Correia put the kibosh on that one by their actions.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 02, 2016, 03:26:47 PM
Hasn't someone already written a book exposing Metodo 3's dirty tricks in that area?
Yes, its well documented. I'm afraid the conspiracy to undermine Gonçalo Amaral can be traced back to source thank to comments already recorded by lawyers like João Grade and Marcos Correia and Francisco Marco of Método 3.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on May 02, 2016, 03:33:29 PM
I very much doubt that The ECHR makes allowances culture.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2016, 03:43:14 PM
Yes, its well documented. I'm afraid the conspiracy to undermine Gonçalo Amaral can be traced back to source thank to comments already recorded by lawyers like João Grade and Marcos Correia and Francisco Marco of Método 3.
Well documented It seems that if amaral or one of his cronies say something it is well documented What evidence is therefore for this...apart from that of amaral and his friends
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 02, 2016, 04:10:01 PM
The point being that the Supreme Court does not have to accept the McCann's appeal.
Which has been pointed out several times already.
The judgement which came 13 was done by Portuguese Law to the tee.
If the McCann's think they can overturn that judgement, they are fooling themselves.
Duarte should know that as well.
If you had read the post properly you would see that I made the point that the Supreme Court do not have to accept the appeal Despite that the McCanns have to submit an appeal in order to be able to apply to the ECHR This has been explained many times but you can't seem to grasp it
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 02, 2016, 05:02:42 PM
If you had read the post properly you would see that I made the point that the Supreme Court do not have to accept the appeal Despite that the McCanns have to submit an appeal in order to be able to apply to the ECHR This has been explained many times but you can't seem to grasp it
I grasp it perfectly well.
That is what you don't grasp.
Besides Dave, when going to the ECHR, the participants are expected to go to arbitration first to try to come to an agreement, before it goes to court.
Besides Dave, do the mccanns really intend to take the state of Portugal to the ECHR's ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2016, 05:06:38 PM
Besides Dave, when going to the ECHR, the participants are expected to go to arbitration first to try to come to an agreement, before it goes to court.
Besides Dave, do the mccanns really intend to take the state of Portugal to the ECHR's ?
It will be interesting to see what the outcome of this eventually is. Have they enough money for a start?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 02, 2016, 05:13:06 PM
You know everyone personally and can vouch for them, can you?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 02, 2016, 05:44:12 PM
If the McCanns did end up at the ECHR what might they achieve? Monetary awards are most often between 1,000 and 8,000 Euros. It can't overturn a decision, but it can order a retrial (please, no!) sometimes.
If the Court finds that there has been a violation, it may award you “just satisfaction”, a sum of money in compensation for certain forms of damage. The Court may also require the State concerned to refund the expenses you have incurred in presenting your case. If the Court finds that there has been no violation, you will not have to pay any additional costs (such as those incurred by the respondent State).
Please note: " The Court is not empowered to overrule national decisions or annul national laws. " The Court is not responsible for the execution of its judgments. As soon as it has given judgment, responsibility passes to the Committee of Ministers3 of the Council of Europe, which has the task of supervising execution and ensuring that any compensation is paid. The Court does not act as a court of appeal in relation to national courts; it does not rehear cases, it cannot quash, vary or revise their decisions. " The Court will not intercede directly on your behalf with the authority you are complaining about. In exceptional circumstances the Court may, however, grant interim measures. As a matter of practice it only does so where there is a serious risk of physical harm to the applicant http://www.echr.coe.int/Pages/home.aspx?p=applicants
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 02, 2016, 05:46:11 PM
If the McCanns did end up at the ECHR what might they achieve? Monetary awards are most often between 1,000 and 8,000 Euros. It can't overturn a decision, but it can order a retrial (please, no!) sometimes.
If the Court finds that there has been a violation, it may award you “just satisfaction”, a sum of money in compensation for certain forms of damage. The Court may also require the State concerned to refund the expenses you have incurred in presenting your case. If the Court finds that there has been no violation, you will not have to pay any additional costs (such as those incurred by the respondent State).
Please note: " The Court is not empowered to overrule national decisions or annul national laws. " The Court is not responsible for the execution of its judgments. As soon as it has given judgment, responsibility passes to the Committee of Ministers3 of the Council of Europe, which has the task of supervising execution and ensuring that any compensation is paid. The Court does not act as a court of appeal in relation to national courts; it does not rehear cases, it cannot quash, vary or revise their decisions. " The Court will not intercede directly on your behalf with the authority you are complaining about. In exceptional circumstances the Court may, however, grant interim measures. As a matter of practice it only does so where there is a serious risk of physical harm to the applicant http://www.echr.coe.int/Pages/home.aspx?p=applicants
So the question on what grounds could the mccanns appeal to that court ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 02, 2016, 05:48:22 PM
If the McCanns did end up at the ECHR what might they achieve? Monetary awards are most often between 1,000 and 8,000 Euros. It can't overturn a decision, but it can order a retrial (please, no!) sometimes.
If the Court finds that there has been a violation, it may award you “just satisfaction”, a sum of money in compensation for certain forms of damage. The Court may also require the State concerned to refund the expenses you have incurred in presenting your case. If the Court finds that there has been no violation, you will not have to pay any additional costs (such as those incurred by the respondent State).
Please note: " The Court is not empowered to overrule national decisions or annul national laws. " The Court is not responsible for the execution of its judgments. As soon as it has given judgment, responsibility passes to the Committee of Ministers3 of the Council of Europe, which has the task of supervising execution and ensuring that any compensation is paid. The Court does not act as a court of appeal in relation to national courts; it does not rehear cases, it cannot quash, vary or revise their decisions. " The Court will not intercede directly on your behalf with the authority you are complaining about. In exceptional circumstances the Court may, however, grant interim measures. As a matter of practice it only does so where there is a serious risk of physical harm to the applicant http://www.echr.coe.int/Pages/home.aspx?p=applicants
That's right, monetary gain is not what the ECHR are about.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 02, 2016, 05:51:51 PM
If the McCanns did end up at the ECHR what might they achieve? Monetary awards are most often between 1,000 and 8,000 Euros. It can't overturn a decision, but it can order a retrial (please, no!) sometimes.
If the Court finds that there has been a violation, it may award you “just satisfaction”, a sum of money in compensation for certain forms of damage. The Court may also require the State concerned to refund the expenses you have incurred in presenting your case. If the Court finds that there has been no violation, you will not have to pay any additional costs (such as those incurred by the respondent State).
Please note: " The Court is not empowered to overrule national decisions or annul national laws. " The Court is not responsible for the execution of its judgments. As soon as it has given judgment, responsibility passes to the Committee of Ministers3 of the Council of Europe, which has the task of supervising execution and ensuring that any compensation is paid. The Court does not act as a court of appeal in relation to national courts; it does not rehear cases, it cannot quash, vary or revise their decisions. " The Court will not intercede directly on your behalf with the authority you are complaining about. In exceptional circumstances the Court may, however, grant interim measures. As a matter of practice it only does so where there is a serious risk of physical harm to the applicant http://www.echr.coe.int/Pages/home.aspx?p=applicants
Thanks GU, very useful. So all the asylum and deportation cases fall under he last paragraph.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on May 02, 2016, 05:53:41 PM
So the question on what grounds could the mccanns appeal to that court ?
Probably Article 8 which provides a right to respect for one's private and family life. The €500,000 damages claim is dead and gone now though unless the Supreme Court decides otherwise.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 02, 2016, 06:06:46 PM
Probably Article 8 which provides a right to respect for one's private and family life. The €500,000 damages claim is dead and gone now though unless the Supreme Court decides otherwise.
Though unless you respect your own private and family life, it's difficult to expect others to.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 02, 2016, 06:28:28 PM
Probably Article 8 which provides a right to respect for one's private and family life. The €500,000 damages claim is dead and gone now though unless the Supreme Court decides otherwise.
However, the McCann's have done everything they can to bring themselves and hence their children Indirectly, and named in the civil case, into the public arena.
So where would that leave the McCann's and section 8 ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2016, 06:39:06 PM
There is the right to a good name and there can be no doubt that amaral has trashed their reputation . His right to free speech carries responsibilities which he has ignored. That may well be where their case lies No one on here understands the intricacies of the ECHR They may well have a case No one can say they haven't We will see
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 02, 2016, 06:45:58 PM
There is the right to a good name and there can be no doubt that amaral has trashed their reputation . His right to free speech carries responsibilities which he has ignored. That may well be where their case lies No one on here understands the intricacies of the ECHR They may well have a case No one can say they haven't We will see
Read the judgement from 13 days ago.
That is already dealt with.
Now tell me, do you seriously imagine the McCann's can take the state of Portugal to that court and win ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 02, 2016, 06:49:19 PM
..and yes dave, I have heard of the psychotic mass killer.
The connection is the EVHR
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 02, 2016, 07:06:36 PM
There is still the chance that the Portuguese Supreme Court will set right this aberrant bout of fascist flatulence by the Portuguese judiciary and restore the (perfectly proper) judgement of the court of first-instance.
But if that doesn't happen, then we can talk about the ECHR
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 02, 2016, 07:10:33 PM
There is still the chance that the Portuguese Supreme Court will set right this aberrant bout of fascist flatulence by the Portuguese judiciary and restore the (perfectly proper) judgement of the court of first-instance.
But if that doesn't happen, then we can talk about the ECHR
The Portuguese Court abided by Portuguese Law.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ChloeR on May 02, 2016, 07:17:23 PM
There is still the chance that the Portuguese Supreme Court will set right this aberrant bout of fascist flatulence by the Portuguese judiciary and restore the (perfectly proper) judgement of the court of first-instance.
But if that doesn't happen, then we can talk about the ECHR
True. The ECHR however can make a ruling, if it goes that far, the judgment would be against The State of Portugal but the ECHR have no power of enforcement.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on May 02, 2016, 07:21:22 PM
Why do you doubt that their good name isn't worth fighting for? Would that be your attitude had you been traduced as they have?
Since the beginning of this Amaral trial its always been about the money, no matter how much they deny it. As such, I don't see them bothering with the time it would take to keep this going when there is not a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 02, 2016, 07:36:58 PM
Since the beginning of this Amaral trial its always been about the money, no matter how much they deny it. As such, I don't see them bothering with the time it would take to keep this going when there is not a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
Yes, they'll go as far as the Supreme Court as there's little more to lose and they might just win, but I think they'll go no further, claiming that it would distract them from their search for Madeleine.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on May 02, 2016, 08:57:50 PM
There is still the chance that the Portuguese Supreme Court will set right this aberrant bout of fascist flatulence by the Portuguese judiciary and restore the (perfectly proper) judgement of the court of first-instance.
But if that doesn't happen, then we can talk about the ECHR
I will let this post stand as it represents your own personal view ferryman. It must however be pointed out that the judgement was made by some of the most qualified and senior judges in Portugal who are familiar with the law.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on May 02, 2016, 09:40:53 PM
Since the beginning of this Amaral trial its always been about the money, no matter how much they deny it. As such, I don't see them bothering with the time it would take to keep this going when there is not a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
Is it normal to sue for defamation without asking for damages?
When Goncalo Amaral sued Marcos Aragão Correia and António Pedro Dores for defamation did he ask for damages or was he content merely to have him (Correia) committed to an insane asylum?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 02, 2016, 10:02:53 PM
It doesn't matter how they arrived at their conclusions, the point I'm making is that the team agreed on the conclusions presented in the September 2007 Interim Report, which is where Amaral's book ended. No matter how much blame is heaped on him, he didn't depart from the conclusions of the investigation.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on May 02, 2016, 10:08:23 PM
Didn't Paiva say In Court that Amaral's "Thesis" stopped them from following any other avenues?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on May 02, 2016, 10:08:39 PM
Anyone know why we are suddenly inundated with hundreds of guests from Germany looking at the Martin Ney connection with the Madeleine McCann case?
Didn't Paiva say In Court that Amaral's "Thesis" stopped them from following any other avenues?
Ricardo Paiva stated in court that the "thesis", as you like to call it, did not harm the investigation. The mistake was made by the journalist, in the court room, who forgot the word "not" when he sent his tweet. This has been pointed out several times, but there are those who continue to repeat this story.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: sadie on May 02, 2016, 11:59:27 PM
I will let this post stand as it represents your own personal view ferryman. It must however be pointed out that the judgement was made by some of the most qualified and senior judges in Portugal who are familiar with the law.
Who were the Judges, John ?
What were their names and positions?
Can you tell me please ?
Thanks in anticipation
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 03, 2016, 12:07:23 AM
You're right. Dr. Corte Real confirmed that there was a preliminary report which stated that it was Madeleine's DNA. How some people here understand the opposite is beyond my comprehension.
IIRC, the woman who saw the car boot open is Portuguese and a "jurista" and she appeared on GA's documentary.
How on earth do you get away with spouting this crap?
Corte-Real was full-square with the FSS's interpretation of the forensic results and said nothing about a 'preliminary report' (unsurprisingly, because there wasn't one, just an explanatory email from John Lowe to Stuart Prior about a result from the, one-and-only, report)
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 03, 2016, 12:43:17 PM
How on earth do you get away with spouting this crap?
Corte-Real was full-square with the FSS's interpretation of the forensic results and said nothing about a 'preliminary report' (unsurprisingly, because there wasn't one, just an explanatory email from John Lowe to Stuart Prior about a result from the, one-and-only, report)
Spouting rubbish about abduction as fact.
That is your mantra.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on May 03, 2016, 12:45:52 PM
Deleting Insulting Comments Now.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 03, 2016, 01:43:25 PM
I will let this post stand as it represents your own personal view ferryman. It must however be pointed out that the judgement was made by some of the most qualified and senior judges in Portugal who are familiar with the law.
I think you may need to be careful in making statements like that John. The court of second instance is still a constitutional court, and therefore most of the judges are not career judges, but co-opted or appointed by the assembly.
The most senior judges in Portugal are members of Higher Council of Magistracy, and work in the senior courts of which the Supreme Court is one.
That is not to say that the three judges in this case, were not highly experienced and good at what they do - it is not possible to tell without knowing their background and career path.
There is a fundamental difference between English Law, which founded on common law and where Judges have much more freedom to interpret and "make" the law, and most continental systems which are rules based and judges main function is to determine which of a narrow set of rules to follow in a particular case. In that sense they are more akin to civil servants or administrators.
This is not being in any sense derogatory - both systems have their merits and disadvantages - but it is important not to confuse the two.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 03, 2016, 04:25:58 PM
For the judges to adjudicate that Amaral could write his book and get it onto the streets for sale so soon after the archiving without breaching judicial...
If you can show that was germane in a civil trial of McCanns v Amaral, kindly do so.
A breach of judicial secrecy would have been a disciplinary matter or a criminal matter, not a civil one.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 03, 2016, 04:41:54 PM
If you can show that was germane in a civil trial of McCanns v Amaral, kindly do so.
A breach of judicial secrecy would have been a disciplinary matter or a criminal matter, not a civil one.
Whether the breach of judicial secrecy leads to (separate) criminal charges, or whether it doesn't, is a separate issue (to the germane topic of this conversation).
The defence invoked on Amaral's behalf (to overturn the decision of the first-instance court) rests on the supposition that Amaral did not breach judicial secrecy in writing his book which (if true, it isn't true!) would mean (by Portuguese law) that Amaral wrote his book, and Kate hers.
Under ordinary circumstances (by Portuguese law) that would bring about an annulment of the usual rules of libel: an effective free-for-all where each is free to trade any accusations, insults, falsehoods, lies (etc) free of fear of legal repercussion (a position summarised in the maxim: to s/he who is willing, no harm can come.)
By analogy, it's a bit like two blokes (we'll call them Fred and Joe) climbing into a boxing-ring (knowingly and willingly) Fred turns out the better boxer and, obeying all the usual rules of boxing, knocks Joe to the canvas to win the boxing bout.
Joe has no legal recourse against Fred.
But if Fred assaults Joe in the street, Fred is guilty of assault, and if the police catch him, he will be guilty of assault.
By the defence invoked on Amaral's behalf the defence (of Amaral and Kate each writing their own memoirs) absolutely cancels out the McCanns' right to sue Amaral.
But because Amaral breached judicial secrecy in writing his book, that defence ought never to have been invoked
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 03, 2016, 04:46:58 PM
Whether the breach of judicial secrecy leads to (separate) criminal charges, or whether it doesn't, is a separate issue (to the germane topic of this conversation).
The defence invoked on Amaral's behalf (to overturn the decision of the first-instance court) rests on the supposition that Amaral did not breach judicial secrecy in writing his book which (if true, it isn't true!) would mean (by Portuguese law) that Amaral wrote his book, and Kate hers.
Under ordinary circumstances (by Portuguese law) that would bring about an annulment of the usual rules of libel: an effective free-for-all where each is free to trade any accusations, insults, falsehoods, lies (etc) free of fear of legal repercussion (a position summarised in the maxim: to s/he who is willing, no harm can come.)
By analogy, it's a bit like two blokes (we'll call them Fred and Joe) climbing into a boxing-ring (knowingly and willingly) Fred turns out the better boxer and, obeying all the usual rules of boxing, knocks Joe to the canvas to win the boxing bout.
Joe has no legal recourse against Fred.
But if Fred assaults Joe in the street, Fred is guilty of assault, and if the police catch him, he will be guilty of assault.
By the defence invoked on Amaral's behalf the defence (of Amaral and Kate each writing their own memoirs) absolutely cancels out the McCanns' right to sue Amaral.
But because Amaral breached judicial secrecy in writing his book, that defence ought never to have been invoked
But he has never been charged or tried with breaching judicial secrecy so he must be innocent of it.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 03, 2016, 04:51:13 PM
But he has never been charged or tried with breaching judicial secrecy so he must be innocent of it.
The Portuguese chose to ignore Amaral's crime, irrelevant to the principle invoked on Amaral's behalf to overrule the court of first-instance, which, itself ought not to have been invoked because Amaral breached judicial secrecy.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 03, 2016, 04:54:00 PM
The Portuguese chose to ignore Amaral's crime, irrelevant to the principle invoked on Amaral's behalf to overrule the court of first-instance, which, itself ought not to have been invoked because Amaral breached judicial secrecy.
according to sil the police enjoy preferential treatment when it comes to the courts
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 03, 2016, 05:01:35 PM
according to sil the police enjoy preferential treatment when it comes to the courts
She may have a point.
Convicted bastinado-torturer Almeida received (I think) a suspended sentence and was allowed to continue serving as a police officer despite his conviction.
Would that same level of preferential treatment extend to an ex-police officer who breached judicial secrecy (in writing a book of falsehood, calumny and traducement) to enable him to invoke a defence (that would otherwise be annulled) to overturn a judgement (of first instance) in favour of the other party?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on May 03, 2016, 05:13:12 PM
Whether the breach of judicial secrecy leads to (separate) criminal charges, or whether it doesn't, is a separate issue (to the germane topic of this conversation).
The defence invoked on Amaral's behalf (to overturn the decision of the first-instance court) rests on the supposition that Amaral did not breach judicial secrecy in writing his book which (if true, it isn't true!) would mean (by Portuguese law) that Amaral wrote his book, and Kate hers.
Under ordinary circumstances (by Portuguese law) that would bring about an annulment of the usual rules of libel: an effective free-for-all where each is free to trade any accusations, insults, falsehoods, lies (etc) free of fear of legal repercussion (a position summarised in the maxim: to s/he who is willing, no harm can come.)
By analogy, it's a bit like two blokes (we'll call them Fred and Joe) climbing into a boxing-ring (knowingly and willingly) Fred turns out the better boxer and, obeying all the usual rules of boxing, knocks Joe to the canvas to win the boxing bout.
Joe has no legal recourse against Fred.
But if Fred assaults Joe in the street, Fred is guilty of assault, and if the police catch him, he will be guilty of assault.
By the defence invoked on Amaral's behalf the defence (of Amaral and Kate each writing their own memoirs) absolutely cancels out the McCanns' right to sue Amaral.
But because Amaral breached judicial secrecy in writing his book, that defence ought never to have been invoked
Sorry, you've lost me on this one.
And I don't remember anything in the last judgement re breach of judicial secrecy, so if you could dig out the relevant section of the judgement, I would be grateful.
To cover off the other points raised in ther earlier posts, police do not get preferential treatment in a case like McCanns v Amaral. It's the other way round. If a policeman (and other categories) brought a case for libel, and won it, damages would be awarded as normal, then increased by 50% due to the fact it was a policeman who was libelled. I have no idea if it applies to ex-policemen, and I presume it only applies in their professional life, not their private one. But there is no special treatment in reaching the judgement itself.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 03, 2016, 05:24:36 PM
And I don't remember anything in the last judgement re breach of judicial secrecy, so if you could dig out the relevant section of the judgement, I would be grateful.
To cover off the other points raised in ther earlier posts, police do not get preferential treatment in a case like McCanns v Amaral. It's the other way round. If a policeman (and other categories) brought a case for libel, and won it, damages would be awarded as normal, then increased by 50% due to the fact it was a policeman who was libelled. I have no idea if it applies to ex-policemen, and I presume it only applies in their professional life, not their private one. But there is no special treatment in reaching the judgement itself.
That Amaral breached judicial secrecy was ignored (in the appeal-court ruling).
It shouldn't have been.
Had Amaral not breached judicial secrecy, the first-instance judge would have handed down, at least a roughly similar judgement as the appeal-court judges (certainly in favour of Amaral rather than the McCanns).
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 03, 2016, 05:30:13 PM
That Amaral breached judicial secrecy was ignored (in the appeal-court ruling).
It shouldn't have been.
Had Amaral not breached judicial secrecy, the first-instance judge would have handed down, at least a roughly similar judgement as the appeal-court judges (certainly in favour of Amaral rather than the McCanns).
Your ability to ignore the reality of the Portuguese judgement is startling.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on May 03, 2016, 05:31:32 PM
That Amaral breached judicial secrecy was ignored (in the appeal-court ruling).
It shouldn't have been.
Had Amaral not breached judicial secrecy, the first-instance judge would have handed down, at least a roughly similar judgement as the appeal-court judges (certainly in favour of Amaral rather than the McCanns).
I didn't wade through the first judgement. Did that mention in any way, shape or form a breach of judicial secrecy?
If it did, I would expect to see the issue covered in the appeal, and we both seem to be saying it was not.
If it didn't, I fail to see how the appeal court should be required to introduce fresh evidence.
By the way, I am not saying there was no breach of judicial secrecy. The ability to produce the information and drawings means, IMO, Amaral was either a naughty boy and took files home, or someone on the case passed the relevant parts to Amaral (breach 1) and Amaral then passed part or all of this onward for further work (breach 2), and probably others were involved (editor, drawings production - breach 3). IMO.
I happen to think that if a criminal prosecution was brought, a number of parties would be found guilty. It could be the authorities felt it was not worth the effort (I don't know what the penalty is - it could be one of those slap on the wrist things) or whether someone just had enough of the stick that the Portuguese system was taking and decided to turn a blind eye. Again, IMO.
If you've read the book, an early part seems to make it clear the book would have been published even if the case was open, though that could be a case of trying to avoid prosecution.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on May 03, 2016, 06:01:16 PM
I didn't wade through the first judgement. Did that mention in any way, shape or form a breach of judicial secrecy?
If it did, I would expect to see the issue covered in the appeal, and we both seem to be saying it was not.
If it didn't, I fail to see how the appeal court should be required to introduce fresh evidence.
By the way, I am not saying there was no breach of judicial secrecy. The ability to produce the information and drawings means, IMO, Amaral was either a naughty boy and took files home, or someone on the case passed the relevant parts to Amaral (breach 1) and Amaral then passed part or all of this onward for further work (breach 2), and probably others were involved (editor, drawings production - breach 3). IMO.
I happen to think that if a criminal prosecution was brought, a number of parties would be found guilty. It could be the authorities felt it was not worth the effort (I don't know what the penalty is - it could be one of those slap on the wrist things) or whether someone just had enough of the stick that the Portuguese system was taking and decided to turn a blind eye. Again, IMO.
If you've read the book, an early part seems to make it clear the book would have been published even if the case was open, though that could be a case of trying to avoid prosecution.
It all seemed like a breach to me at the time.
Would The McCanns have got a slap on the wrist?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 03, 2016, 06:08:25 PM
Equally, if the McCanns had revealed confidential details of the investigation in a book published very, very shortly after the case was archived, I cannot tell if action would be taken against them.
I would need to know whether a criminal prosecution against Amaral was considered, who made the decision, and why such a decision was reached, and I have no info on all of that.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on May 03, 2016, 06:16:29 PM
Equally, if the McCanns had revealed confidential details of the investigation in a book published very, very shortly after the case was archived, I cannot tell if action would be taken against them.
I would need to know whether a criminal prosecution against Amaral was considered, who made the decision, and why such a decision was reached, and I have no info on all of that.
We were all regaled at great length of what could happen to The McCanns, should they dare. Two years in prison, I do believe.
And then absolutely nothing when Amaral was obviously being fed information which he then used in his book. Certainly things he could not have known from his time in charge.
So what on earth was going on?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Benice on May 03, 2016, 06:51:50 PM
IIRC the McCanns and their friends were left in no doubt by the PJ that breaking the secrecy laws could result in a 2 year prison sentence. Hence the disgraceful smear campaign against them in the PJ press was able to continue ad nauseam without any opportunity for the McCanns to counter it.
I believe the same situation prevailed in the Cipriano case - so by the time she went to court a baying mob was waiting for her - as a result of what they had been reading in the Press.
AIMO
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on May 03, 2016, 07:00:27 PM
IIRC the McCanns and their friends were left in no doubt by the PJ that breaking the secrecy laws could result in a 2 year prison sentence. Hence the disgraceful smear campaign against them in the PJ press was able to continue ad nauseam without any opportunity for the McCanns to counter it.
I believe the same situation prevailed in the Cipriano case - so by the time she went to court a baying mob was waiting for her - as a result of what they had been reading in the Press.
AIMO
Trial by Public Opinion. Portugal seems to be quite good at that.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 03, 2016, 07:30:13 PM
I didn't wade through the first judgement. Did that mention in any way, shape or form a breach of judicial secrecy?
If it did, I would expect to see the issue covered in the appeal, and we both seem to be saying it was not.
If it didn't, I fail to see how the appeal court should be required to introduce fresh evidence.
By the way, I am not saying there was no breach of judicial secrecy. The ability to produce the information and drawings means, IMO, Amaral was either a naughty boy and took files home, or someone on the case passed the relevant parts to Amaral (breach 1) and Amaral then passed part or all of this onward for further work (breach 2), and probably others were involved (editor, drawings production - breach 3). IMO.
I happen to think that if a criminal prosecution was brought, a number of parties would be found guilty. It could be the authorities felt it was not worth the effort (I don't know what the penalty is - it could be one of those slap on the wrist things) or whether someone just had enough of the stick that the Portuguese system was taking and decided to turn a blind eye. Again, IMO.
If you've read the book, an early part seems to make it clear the book would have been published even if the case was open, though that could be a case of trying to avoid prosecution.
Quote
Nonetheless, it is understood, in the decision under appeal, that because the 1st appellant, Gonçalo Amaral, was, until October 2, 2007, the coordinator of the criminal investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, he was, after his retirement on the 1st of July, 2008, subject to the duties of secrecy and reserve that are imposed to the employees that serve the Polícia Judiciária.
And, under such terms, although the introductory note in the book invokes personal reasons, in a situation of conflict with the rights to a good name and reputation of the subjects of the appeal, the appellant [Gonçalo Amaral] could not benefit, faced with the results of the investigation, of a broad and full freedom of expression – and thus his conduct would be unlawful, under article 484 of the Civil Code.
From what was above said about this matter, it is clearly understood that such argumentation cannot be sustained.
In effect, and independently of the reasons invoked by the appellant for the publication, it is hardly understandable that an employee, even more a retired one, would have to keep said duties of secrecy and reserve, thus being limited in the exercise of his right to an opinion, concerning the interpretation of facts that were already made public by the judiciary authority, and widely debated (in fact, largely by initiative of the intervenients themselves) in the national and international media.
Amaral breached judicial secrecy in writing his book and getting it prepared for sale (so close following the archiving).
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 03, 2016, 07:37:11 PM
No, they got to leave behind their daughter with a shed load of money with not as much as a thank you for the people who were trying to find their daughter, with their reputations as great parents well discussed in the press in the UK.
So, all in all, not bad for what they did.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 03, 2016, 07:39:10 PM
Amaral breached judicial secrecy in preparing his book for publication.
He must have to have it in the shops for sale so soon after the archiving.
He hasn't been charged with anything, he broke a secrecy law, so what? The McCanns broke laws also,the difference is one's family is accounted for and the others isn't. Who shall we hang first?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 03, 2016, 08:18:00 PM
I didn't wade through the first judgement. Did that mention in any way, shape or form a breach of judicial secrecy?
If it did, I would expect to see the issue covered in the appeal, and we both seem to be saying it was not.
If it didn't, I fail to see how the appeal court should be required to introduce fresh evidence.
By the way, I am not saying there was no breach of judicial secrecy. The ability to produce the information and drawings means, IMO, Amaral was either a naughty boy and took files home, or someone on the case passed the relevant parts to Amaral (breach 1) and Amaral then passed part or all of this onward for further work (breach 2), and probably others were involved (editor, drawings production - breach 3). IMO.
I happen to think that if a criminal prosecution was brought, a number of parties would be found guilty. It could be the authorities felt it was not worth the effort (I don't know what the penalty is - it could be one of those slap on the wrist things) or whether someone just had enough of the stick that the Portuguese system was taking and decided to turn a blind eye. Again, IMO.
If you've read the book, an early part seems to make it clear the book would have been published even if the case was open, though that could be a case of trying to avoid prosecution.
The first judgement rested on two points. One was that Amaral breached judicial secrecy. The other was that he should have honoured the presumption of innocence.
The Appeal judges pointed out that his conclusions were already in the public arena before his book was released. Presumption of innocence refers to suspects which the McCanns were not. They also pointed out that the McCanns forfeited their right to privacy by courting the media, doing photoshoots and interviews, making videos etc. They also publicised their theory of abduction, opening the way for competing theories to be published.
It's all here, and the judgement is right at the end if you scroll down.
http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 03, 2016, 08:43:03 PM
The first judgement rested on two points. One was that Amaral breached judicial secrecy. The other was that he should have honoured the presumption of innocence.
The Appeal judges pointed out that his conclusions were already in the public arena before his book was released. Presumption of innocence refers to suspects which the McCanns were not. They also pointed out that the McCanns forfeited their right to privacy by courting the media, doing photoshoots and interviews, making videos etc. They also publicised their theory of abduction, opening the way for competing theories to be published.
It's all here, and the judgement is right at the end if you scroll down.
http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
To be honest G I was surprised this was brought up at a money seeking trial because if true,the theory was still in tact with the rest of his team. And the McCanns had no evidence of their theory to disprove Amarals theory. They were grasping at straws. The out come was correct at his hearing from Supreme court.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 03, 2016, 08:54:03 PM
He hasn't been charged with anything, he broke a secrecy law, so what? The McCanns broke laws also,the difference is one's family is accounted for and the others isn't. Who shall we hang first?
In breaching judicial secrecy (to get his book on sale so soon after archiving) the defence invoked on his behalf in the - libel trial ought not to have been; the decision (of the first instance court) upheld and affirmed.
Simple as that.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 03, 2016, 08:56:49 PM
I understand perfectly.
As did the first-instance judge.
That's why she didn't invoke that defence on Amaral's behalf.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 03, 2016, 08:58:09 PM
Is there a more apt description for those dedicated to upholding the 'right' to traduce and malign with lies?
If there is, I can't think of it.
I don't think you have the correct definition of 'troll' ferryman. Posting honestly held opinions is not trolling. Deliberately disrupting and attacking others on a forum or thread is trolling.
troll One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument
someone who leaves an intentionally annoying message on the internet, in order to get attention or cause trouble › a message that someone leaves on the internet that is intended to annoy people:
is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,[3] often for their own amusement.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 03, 2016, 09:39:21 PM
I don't think you have the correct definition of 'troll' ferryman. Posting honestly held opinions is not trolling. Deliberately disrupting and attacking others on a forum or thread is trolling.
troll One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument
someone who leaves an intentionally annoying message on the internet, in order to get attention or cause trouble › a message that someone leaves on the internet that is intended to annoy people:
is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,[3] often for their own amusement.
Not to forget posting incendiary comments shrouded in a cloak of faux moral outrage.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 03, 2016, 11:31:08 PM
Why did you ever thnk there was more than three judges?
I feel sure that i saw it somewhere in print that there was a panel of the best Judges and Judiciary that Portugal had to offer, but no names apart from those three.
I would like to know the names.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 04, 2016, 01:44:05 AM
I feel sure that i saw it somewhere in print that there was a panel of the best Judges and Judiciary that Portugal had to offer, but no names apart from those three.
I would like to know the names.
I asked you why you thought there were more than three judges and i already gave you their names, your post is not addressing anything and i have no idea ehat you read wherever unless you can link
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: sadie on May 04, 2016, 02:39:25 AM
I asked you why you thought there were more than three judges and i already gave you their names, your post is not addressing anything and i have no idea ehat you read wherever unless you can link
I am sorry mercury, but I cannot search as I used to. My eyes will not allow it, but I have found some more info about Judges
Joana is saying that the following (underlined) were Judges: Francisco Bruto da Costa Catarina Arelo Manso António Valente
Our information says the following were involved, but were all three Judges ? Ferreira de Almeida - relator Catarina Manso - 1* adjunta Alexandrina Branquinho - 2* adjunta
I dont speak PT, but from the above, it seems likely that there were more than three. If so, I wonder what their names were ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 04, 2016, 02:47:20 AM
Why? Your on a hiding to nowhere as usual so save yourself the bother, nighty nght now
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: sadie on May 04, 2016, 02:50:37 AM
Joana is saying that the following (underlined) were Judges: Francisco Bruto da Costa Catarina Arelo Manso António Valente
Our information says the following were involved, but were all three Judges ? Ferreira de Almeida - relator Catarina Manso - 1* adjunta Alexandrina Branquinho - 2* adjunta
I dont speak PT, but from the above, it seems likely that there were more than three. If so, I wonder what their names were ?
That was the injunction being overturned, Sadie, not the latest judgement.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on May 04, 2016, 09:53:24 AM
I had seen that ... but I thought that a large number of Judiciary decided this case ?
Am I wrong ? If not, where is the list of names ?
Any idea ?
Jean Pierre posted
Quote I think you may need to be careful in making statements like that John. The court of second instance is still a constitutional court, and therefore most of the judges are not career judges, but co-opted or appointed by the assembly.
The most senior judges in Portugal are members of Higher Council of Magistracy, and work in the senior courts of which the Supreme Court is one.
That is not to say that the three judges in this case, were not highly experienced and good at what they do - it is not possible to tell without knowing their background and career path.
There is a fundamental difference between English Law, which founded on common law and where Judges have much more freedom to interpret and "make" the law, and most continental systems which are rules based and judges main function is to determine which of a narrow set of rules to follow in a particular case. In that sense they are more akin to civil servants or administrators.
This is not being in any sense derogatory - both systems have their merits and disadvantages - but it is important not to confuse the two.
Joana is saying that the following (underlined) were Judges: Francisco Bruto da Costa Catarina Arelo Manso António Valente
Our information says the following were involved, but were all three Judges ? Ferreira de Almeida - relator Catarina Manso - 1* adjunta Alexandrina Branquinho - 2* adjunta
I dont speak PT, but from the above, it seems likely that there were more than three. If so, I wonder what their names were ?
Ferreira de Almeida, Catarina Manso ad Alexandrina Branquinho are all judges.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 04, 2016, 10:34:11 AM
Quote I think you may need to be careful in making statements like that John. The court of second instance is still a constitutional court, and therefore most of the judges are not career judges, but co-opted or appointed by the assembly.
The most senior judges in Portugal are members of Higher Council of Magistracy, and work in the senior courts of which the Supreme Court is one.
That is not to say that the three judges in this case, were not highly experienced and good at what they do - it is not possible to tell without knowing their background and career path.
There is a fundamental difference between English Law, which founded on common law and where Judges have much more freedom to interpret and "make" the law, and most continental systems which are rules based and judges main function is to determine which of a narrow set of rules to follow in a particular case. In that sense they are more akin to civil servants or administrators.
This is not being in any sense derogatory - both systems have their merits and disadvantages - but it is important not to confuse the two.
The first judgement rested on two points. One was that Amaral breached judicial secrecy. The other was that he should have honoured the presumption of innocence.
The Appeal judges pointed out that his conclusions were already in the public arena before his book was released. Presumption of innocence refers to suspects which the McCanns were not. They also pointed out that the McCanns forfeited their right to privacy by courting the media, doing photoshoots and interviews, making videos etc. They also publicised their theory of abduction, opening the way for competing theories to be published.
It's all here, and the judgement is right at the end if you scroll down.
http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
Thank you.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 05, 2016, 12:23:43 PM
The first judgement rested on two points. One was that Amaral breached judicial secrecy. The other was that he should have honoured the presumption of innocence.
The Appeal judges pointed out that his conclusions were already in the public arena before his book was released. Presumption of innocence refers to suspects which the McCanns were not. They also pointed out that the McCanns forfeited their right to privacy by courting the media, doing photoshoots and interviews, making videos etc. They also publicised their theory of abduction, opening the way for competing theories to be published.
It's all here, and the judgement is right at the end if you scroll down.
http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
One point that exercised the mind of the first-instance judge was Amaral's promise of 'revelations'.
Emphatically and unreservedly assertions of Amaral's (to enter the public domain) were:
*that Amaral corrected and contradicted Prior on interpretation of the forensic results
*that Prior rang the FSS to berate them on the subject of the PJ's powers of arrest
*that Mark Harrison switched the enquiry to one for a little girl assumed dead, and even hinted her parents might be responsible (for her death)
*That Madeleine's remains were buried in close proximity to apartment 5a (PdL) (even though Harrison* reached no firm conclusion about what may have happened to Madeleine, including whether alive or dead).
These are all individual and unique assertions of Amaral's.
All devoid of fact.
All tending to malign and traduce.
All tending to contradict the basis upon which the appeal ruling (overturning the ruling of the court of first instance) rest.
*Edited to replace 'Harrison' for 'Amaral'
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 05, 2016, 12:32:34 PM
One point that exercised the mind of the first-instance judge was Amaral's promise of 'revelations'.
Emphatically and unreservedly assertions of Amaral's (to enter the public domain) were:
*that Amaral corrected and contradicted Prior on interpretation of the forensic results
*that Prior rang the FSS to berate them on the subject of the PJ's powers of arrest
*that Mark Harrison switched the enquiry to one for a little girl assumed dead, and even hinted her parents might be responsible (for her death)
*That Madeleine's remains were buried in close proximity to apartment 5a (PdL) (even though Amaral reached no firm conclusion about what may have happened to Madeleine, including whether alive or dead).
These are all individual and unique assertions of Amaral's.
All devoid of fact.
All tending to malign and traduce.
All tending to contradict the basis upon which the appeal ruling (overturning the ruling of the court of first instance) rest.
When will you get it that the judgement has dealt with this thoroughly ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 05, 2016, 12:46:58 PM
The first judge was incorrect in applying the law.
That is why her judgement was overturned.
What part of that do you not comprehend.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on May 05, 2016, 07:45:49 PM
"We will endeavour to keep you informed as and when we receive further information regarding the re-appeal." http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/statement_26.html How many days now until the deadline for appealing to the supreme court?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 05, 2016, 08:53:50 PM
Judges in the plural note, three of 'em like with a unanimous decision, notwithstanding the Appeal Court has "more rings up its sleeve" than the Court of First Instance. So the Supreme Court awaits.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 06, 2016, 02:25:53 PM
Judges in the plural note, three of 'em like with a unanimous decision, notwithstanding the Appeal Court has "more rings up its sleeve" than the Court of First Instance. So the Supreme Court awaits.
From the judgement:
Quote
And, under such terms, although the introductory note in the book invokes personal reasons, in a situation of conflict with the rights to a good name and reputation of the subjects of the appeal, the appellant [Gonçalo Amaral] could not benefit, faced with the results of the investigation, of a broad and full freedom of expression – and thus his conduct would be unlawful, under article 484 of the Civil Code.
From what was above said about this matter, it is clearly understood that such argumentation cannot be sustained.
In effect, and independently of the reasons invoked by the appellant for the publication, it is hardly understandable that an employee, even more a retired one, would have to keep said duties of secrecy and reserve, thus being limited in the exercise of his right to an opinion, concerning the interpretation of facts that were already made public by the judiciary authority, and widely debated (in fact, largely by initiative of the intervenients themselves) in the national and international media.
So the judges don't dispute that Amaral breached judicial secrecy.
Rather, they argue that as a civilian, not a policeman, he was entitled to breach judicial secrecy.
And concerning the part I underline, was Amaral under an obligation to offer accurate interpretation of the facts?
Or is he allowed to get away with claiming that he contradicted and corrected Prior on interpretation of the forensic results?
And that Prior rang the FSS to berate them on the PJ's powers of arrest?
Is Amaral allowed to get away with mangling and misinterpreting the role (in the investigation) of Mark Harrison?
Is Amaral allowed to get away with the outright lie that British officers, as well as Portuguese, thought the McCanns 'guilty'?
Is Amaral allowed to get away with misinterpreting the FSS as producing a 'preliminary' report (when they did no such thing) and producing a 'second' report "correcting" and "contradicting" the first, when John Lowe, actually, wrote Stuart Prior an explanatory email about one result (from the boot of the car)?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 06, 2016, 02:40:04 PM
So the judges don't dispute that Amaral breached judicial secrecy.
Rather, they argue that as a civilian, not a policeman, he was entitled to breach judicial secrecy.
And concerning the part I underline, was Amaral under an obligation to offer accurate interpretation of the facts?
Or is he allowed to get away with claiming that he contradicted and corrected Prior on interpretation of the forensic results?
And that Prior rang the FSS to berate them on the PJ's powers of arrest?
Is Amaral allowed to get away with mangling and misinterpreting the role (in the investigation) of Mark Harrison?
Is Amaral allowed to get away with the outright lie that British officers, as well as Portuguese, thought the McCanns 'guilty'?
Is Amaral allowed to get away with misinterpreting the FSS as producing a 'preliminary' report (when they did no such thing) and producing a 'second' report "correcting" and "contradicting" the first, when John Lowe, actually, wrote Stuart Prior an explanatory email about one result (from the boot of the car)?
What is it with you that you don't understand the judgenent ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 06, 2016, 02:51:12 PM
Fortunately, it is of no consequence whether Ferryman understands or not.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 06, 2016, 04:41:28 PM
Let's see.
It was not in the public domain, until people read Amaral's book, that Amaral contradicted and corrected Prior on interpretation of the forensic results.
It was not in the public domain, until people read Amaral's book, that Prior rang the FSS to berate them on the PJ's powers of arrest.
It was not in the public domain, and is neither in the files, that Mark Harrison switched the enquiry to one for a little girl assumed dead, and even hinted that her parents might be responsible for her death.
It is in the files, but contradicted by other stuff, also in the files, that Eddie 'scented death' all over the place.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: sadie on May 06, 2016, 04:46:53 PM
It was not in the public domain, until people read Amaral's book, that Amaral contradicted and corrected Prior on interpretation of the forensic results.
It was not in the public domain, until people read Amaral's book, that Prior rang the FSS to berate them on the PJ's powers of arrest.
It was not in the public domain, and is neither in the files, that Mark Harrison switched the enquiry to one for a little girl assumed dead, and even hinted that her parents might be responsible for her death.
It is in the files, but contradicted by other stuff, also in the files, that Eddie 'scented death' all over the place.
You have no idea what was really going on behind the scenes, you are basing your opinion purely on documents which found their way into the public domain. The way I see it Amaral was being told things which conveniently became 'off the record'.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 06, 2016, 05:39:50 PM
Fortunately, it is of no consequence whether Ferryman understands or not.
Ferryman thinks he knows Portuguese Law better than three senior judges. What brothers him more than anything however is the fact that the McCanns are stuffed! Hopefully Amaral will finish the job now that he has the upper hand.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 06, 2016, 05:47:11 PM
....concerning the interpretation of facts that were already made public by the judiciary authority, ...
In the process of pulication (preparing his book for sale) Amaral made facts public (to proof-readers, people who ran copies of the manuscript, people involved in the actual printing of the book.
Not many.
But some.
Are the rules governing how widespread breach of judicial secrecy has to be before it counts as a breach?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 06, 2016, 06:20:12 PM
....concerning the interpretation of facts that were already made public by the judiciary authority, ...
In the process of pulication (preparing his book for sale) Amaral made facts public (to proof-readers, people who ran copies of the manuscript, people involved in the actual printing of the book.
Not many.
But some.
Are the rules governing how widespread breach of judicial secrecy has to be before it counts as a breach?
Let's face it ferryman, the McCanns have lost. I predict they will quietly slink away once the Supreme Court refuses to hear their appeal and the ECHR finds no case to answer.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: sadie on May 06, 2016, 09:16:19 PM
So the judges don't dispute that Amaral breached judicial secrecy.
Rather, they argue that as a civilian, not a policeman, he was entitled to breach judicial secrecy.
And concerning the part I underline, was Amaral under an obligation to offer accurate interpretation of the facts?
Or is he allowed to get away with claiming that he contradicted and corrected Prior on interpretation of the forensic results?
And that Prior rang the FSS to berate them on the PJ's powers of arrest?
Is Amaral allowed to get away with mangling and misinterpreting the role (in the investigation) of Mark Harrison?
Is Amaral allowed to get away with the outright lie that British officers, as well as Portuguese, thought the McCanns 'guilty'?
Is Amaral allowed to get away with misinterpreting the FSS as producing a 'preliminary' report (when they did no such thing) and producing a 'second' report "correcting" and "contradicting" the first, when John Lowe, actually, wrote Stuart Prior an explanatory email about one result (from the boot of the car)?
Now let's see your considered answer
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 06, 2016, 09:21:12 PM
Please desist from libelling Amaral.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 06, 2016, 09:26:22 PM
could you explain why you support amaral libelling the mccans but call for posters here not to libel amaral
You are posting on a UK forum, making allegations against an individual without proof. That is libel. GA has been found not guilty in the recent trial. Clear?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2016, 09:43:31 PM
You are posting on a UK forum, making allegations against an individual without proof. That is libel. GA has been found not guilty in the recent trial. Clear?
amaral has libelled the mccanns ...clear...try not to be so aggressive...I have proof and have posted it that what amaral says is untrue...is that clear
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on May 06, 2016, 09:44:13 PM
You are posting on a UK forum, making allegations against an individual without proof. That is libel. GA has been found not guilty in the recent trial. Clear?
exactly if GA wanted too he could rightly sue davel for his posts couldnt he?? or others he did nothing wrong
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 06, 2016, 09:44:59 PM
amaral has libelled the mccanns ...clear...try not to be so aggressive...I have proof and have posted it that what amaral says is untrue...is that clear
Yet again you haven't, just continual repeating your opinions.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2016, 09:47:24 PM
You don't know what was discussed during the investigation, it is not all documented.
imo anything said about GA that the forum etc could get sued for should get a warning like it or not for the supporters GA was found innocent and his book is on sale in portugal again so legally under portugese law he has done nothing wrong
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 06, 2016, 10:08:57 PM
I know amaral claimed in his book taht the dogs alerted to cadaver...not confirmed ..opinion as fact
I know he claimed there was blood in the boot...not confirmed
which of those FACTS do you dispute
1) a professional dog handlers opinion that eddie alerted to cadaver scent contaminant NOT Amarals opinion 2) a professional dog handlers opinion that KEela alerted to blood in the boot NOT Amarals opinion 3) The fact that scientific methods do not exist to compete with dogs noses to refute or confirm their alerts
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on May 07, 2016, 01:00:06 AM
1) a professional dog handlers opinion that eddie alerted to cadaver scent contaminant NOT Amarals opinion 2) a professional dog handlers opinion that KEela alerted to blood in the boot NOT Amarals opinion 3) The fact that scientific methods do not exist to compete with dogs noses to refute or confirm their alerts
Please may we take the dogs to a doggie thread ... we are spoilt for choice. This one is about Mr Amaral winning his appeal. Thank you.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 07, 2016, 01:05:20 AM
That was good of you ... but please ... doggy threads for dogs and Mr Amaral winning his appeal to this thread, thank you
The thread is about amaral winning his appeal. The book comes into the discussion big time. Posters are quoting from the book and making comments, so all on topic IMO. Not sure why you are asking for discussion of discussion if the book cintents in whch the whole trial lay to stop or be moved, oh well
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on May 07, 2016, 01:19:27 AM
The thread is about amaral winning his appeal. The book comes into the discussion big time. Posters are quoting from the book and making comments, so all on topic IMO. Not sure why you are asking for discussion of discussion if the book cintents in whch the whole trial lay to stop or be moved, oh well
There is also a thread for discussion of the book. I go OT as much as the next person and we all do it for the reason you describe, but it is a good idea to try not to add to confusion and try to post on the correct thread when possible.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 07, 2016, 08:59:46 AM
amaral has libelled the mccanns ...clear...try not to be so aggressive...I have proof and have posted it that what amaral says is untrue...is that clear
Just to be clear, the first judgement awarded damages to the McCann couple. They were not awarded because someone told lies. They were awarded because the judge ruled that Amaral breached duties imposed upon him by his position as an ex policeman. The Appeal judges ruled that he did not. They said he was innocent of wrongdoing and at the moment that's the legal position.
Your assertion that 'amaral has libelled the mccanns' is therefore your opinion only.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on May 07, 2016, 09:15:03 AM
Just to be clear, the first judgement awarded damages to the McCann couple. They were not awarded because someone told lies. They were awarded because the judge ruled that Amaral breached duties imposed upon him by his position as an ex policeman. The Appeal judges ruled that he did not. They said he was innocent of wrongdoing and at the moment that's the legal position.
Your assertion that 'amaral has libelled the mccanns' is therefore your opinion only.
So alleging that the parents of a missing child covered up her death, faked her abduction and concealed her remains so cunningly that there has been no sign or trace of her body and that, by inference, they were aided and abetted by those with whom they came into contact ... then writing a book about it ... couldn't possibly be considered libel??
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 07, 2016, 09:19:05 AM
So alleging that the parents of a missing child covered up her death, faked her abduction and concealed her remains so cunningly that there has been no sign or trace of her body and that, by inference, they were aided and abetted by those with whom they came into contact ... then writing a book about it ... couldn't possibly be considered libel??
Remember the word thesis ?
Likewise, do you remember that police actually investigate crimes ?
Can you also remind me , of the percentage of missing children cases where family/friends are involved ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on May 07, 2016, 10:19:30 AM
Likewise, do you remember that police actually investigate crimes ?
Can you also remind me , of the percentage of missing children cases where family/friends are involved ?
May I remind you we are discussing Madeleine McCann and what may have happened to her. Her parents are most definitely neither suspects or persons of interest in the investigation into her disappearance.
Despite the shoddy police work which once tried to make them so. Mr Amaral has had many bites at the cherry of impugning her parents and it appears that as a result of his recent appeal court victory he fully intends to continue doing so.
However in order to continue to make a living from his failure to crack Madeleine's case ... he is going to have to come up with more than an historical document - which is what his book now is - so could be interesting times ahead.
To digress ... but as you seem to require information on theses ...
I wrote my thesis many years ago ... every single word in it was the result of exhaustive research and every sentence, paragraph and chapter was scrutinised for accuracy.
But guess what ... it is no longer the informative document it was. Times have changed along with the methodology I wrote about. If it is still on the university library shelves it would be of use only to the curious who wished to see how things were done in my field in times gone by ... and I am afraid Mr Amaral's thesis would never have been on those shelves in the first place as they would not have survived the scrutiny such a work is given.
In other words he would have failed his degree course.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 07, 2016, 10:25:44 AM
May I remind you we are discussing Madeleine McCann and what may have happened to her. Her parents are most definitely neither suspects or persons of interest in the investigation into her disappearance.
Despite the shoddy police work which once tried to make them so. Mr Amaral has had many bites at the cherry of impugning her parents and it appears that as a result of his recent appeal court victory he fully intends to continue doing so.
However in order to continue to make a living from his failure to crack Madeleine's case ... he is going to have to come up with more than an historical document - which is what his book now is - so could be interesting times ahead.
To digress ... but as you seem to require information on theses ...
I wrote my thesis many years ago ... every single word in it was the result of exhaustive research and every sentence, paragraph and chapter was scrutinised for accuracy.
But guess what ... it is no longer the informative document it was. Times have changed along with the methodology I wrote about. If it is still on the university library shelves it would be of use only to the curious who wished to see how things were done in my field in times gone by ... and I am afraid Mr Amaral's thesis would never have been on those shelves in the first place as they would not have survived the scrutiny such a work is given.
In other words he would have failed his degree course.
You will find this thread is entitled: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Yes that's right well spotted he won round two. There is nothing to discuss until the appeal is heard. You might as well bung the thread in LIN until the appeal comes up. At least that might discourage OT posts and posters trying to start flame wars ?{)(**
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 07, 2016, 10:30:05 AM
May I remind you we are discussing Madeleine McCann and what may have happened to her. Her parents are most definitely neither suspects or persons of interest in the investigation into her disappearance.
Despite the shoddy police work which once tried to make them so. Mr Amaral has had many bites at the cherry of impugning her parents and it appears that as a result of his recent appeal court victory he fully intends to continue doing so.
However in order to continue to make a living from his failure to crack Madeleine's case ... he is going to have to come up with more than an historical document - which is what his book now is - so could be interesting times ahead.
To digress ... but as you seem to require information on theses ...
I wrote my thesis many years ago ... every single word in it was the result of exhaustive research and every sentence, paragraph and chapter was scrutinised for accuracy.
But guess what ... it is no longer the informative document it was. Times have changed along with the methodology I wrote about. If it is still on the university library shelves it would be of use only to the curious who wished to see how things were done in my field in times gone by ... and I am afraid Mr Amaral's thesis would never have been on those shelves in the first place as they would not have survived the scrutiny such a work is given.
In other words he would have failed his degree course.
I will remind you that no evidence exits to show anyone else was in that apartment that night, other than the ones known.
The mccanns remain the last known people to have seen Madeleine alive.
The use of the word 'shoddy' by you, is your opinion and therefore irrelevant.
Madeleine was searched for extensively and that includes the Portuguese police.
No evidence has been found of abduction and that remains the case.
As to Mr. Amaral, I wish him every success in taking appropriate legal action against the mccanns.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on May 07, 2016, 10:41:23 AM
I will remind you that no evidence exits to show anyone else was in that apartment that night, other than the ones known.
The mccanns remain the last known people to have seen Madeleine alive.
The use of the word 'shoddy' by you, is your opinion and therefore irrelevant.
Madeleine was searched for extensively and that includes the Portuguese police.
No evidence has been found of abduction and that remains the case.
As to Mr. Amaral, I wish him every success in taking appropriate legal action against the mccanns.
Alice has made a very succinct summation in his post and his advice is worth taking on board. (Can't believe I said that, Alice!!) The success of Mr Amaral's appeal must surely have some mileage left in it yet ... maybe it is time to think less about painting with a broad brush and more on what the threads should actually be about. Else why go to the bother of having separate threads when every size fits all?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 07, 2016, 11:06:57 AM
So alleging that the parents of a missing child covered up her death, faked her abduction and concealed her remains so cunningly that there has been no sign or trace of her body and that, by inference, they were aided and abetted by those with whom they came into contact ... then writing a book about it ... couldn't possibly be considered libel??
It has been considered by the courts. Whatever people's opinions on the matter at the moment no libel has been found to have been committed. At the moment the McCann's complaints have been described as unfounded. Unless and until it changes that is the legal position.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 07, 2016, 11:08:33 AM
It has been considered by the courts. Whatever people's opinions on the matter at the moment no libel has been found to have been committed. At the moment the McCann's complaints have been described as unfounded. Unless and until it changes that is the legal position.
amaral has libelled the Mccanns according to the definition of libel...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 07, 2016, 11:16:15 AM
amaral has libelled the Mccanns according to the definition of libel...
In your opinion. The appeal judges didn't share your opinion. Their opinion carries more weight than yours, because their opinion has deprived the McCanns of E500,000 plus costs and has allowed Amaral to sell his book and repeat his opinions in public.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 07, 2016, 11:19:30 AM
In your opinion. The appeal judges didn't share your opinion. Their opinion carries more weight than yours, because their opinion has deprived the McCanns of E500,000 plus costs and has allowed Amaral to sell his book and repeat his opinions in public.
repeat his allegations in public.....although he does seem to have toned it down.....we await the next ruling and the potential ruling of the ECHR
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 07, 2016, 11:19:35 AM
In your opinion. The appeal judges didn't share your opinion. Their opinion carries more weight than yours, because their opinion has deprived the McCanns of E500,000 plus costs and has allowed Amaral to sell his book and repeat his opinions in public.
Precisely.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 07, 2016, 11:27:58 AM
repeat his allegations in public.....although he does seem to have toned it down.....we await the next ruling and the potential ruling of the ECHR
If the Supreme Court accepts an appeal and overturns the decision of the Appeal Court then the legal position will have changed. Until then it's not correct to accuse Amaral of libel without pointing out that it's an opinion, not a fact. Posting opinion as fact is against the forum rules, as you have pointed out. I expect a mod can correct me on that if I've got it wrong.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Admin on May 07, 2016, 12:44:35 PM
If the Supreme Court accepts an appeal and overturns the decision of the Appeal Court then the legal position will have changed. Until then it's not correct to accuse Amaral of libel without pointing out that it's an opinion, not a fact. Posting opinion as fact is against the forum rules, as you have pointed out. I expect a mod can correct me on that if I've got it wrong.
Portuguese Law has determined that Mr Amaral did nothing wrong in publishing his book and dvd so until that situation changes or the mystery surrounding Madeleine's disappearance is solved it is incorrect to accuse him of defamation.
By the same token, it is incorrect to accuse Madeleine's parents of having hidden her body and invented an abduction.
Members must remember that they are free to discuss cases and offer opinions, they must not accuse any person of a crime.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on May 07, 2016, 01:04:25 PM
Portuguese Law has determined that Mr Amaral did nothing wrong in publishing his book and dvd so until that situation changes or the mystery surrounding Madeleine's disappearance is solved it is incorrect to accuse him of defamation.
By the same token, it is incorrect to accuse Madeleine's parents of having hidden her body and invented an abduction.
Members must remember that they are free to discuss cases and offer opinions, they must not accuse any person of a crime.
Agreed Admin. The argument is that Amaral did accuse the parents of crimes, for which there is no proof, let alone his bewildering understanding of certain elements and apparently that's not illegal in Portugal.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 07, 2016, 02:34:12 PM
Portuguese Law has determined that Mr Amaral did nothing wrong in publishing his book and dvd so until that situation changes or the mystery surrounding Madeleine's disappearance is solved it is incorrect to accuse him of defamation.
By the same token, it is incorrect to accuse Madeleine's parents of having hidden her body and invented an abduction.
Members must remember that they are free to discuss cases and offer opinions, they must not accuse any person of a crime.
prtuguese law has not declared amaral has not defamed the mccanns...it is quite clear he has. What they have ruled is that he is allowed to
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 07, 2016, 02:35:10 PM
prtuguese law has not declared amaral has not defamed the mccanns...it is quite clear he has. What they have ruled is that he is allowed to
Jeez!
So .... say what you like about anyone, run them down, tear them apart, destroy them ..... and it is OK in Portugal
Amaral presented the findings of the investigation as at September 2007 in his book;
A) The minor Madeleine McCann died in the apartment 5A of the Ocean Club resort, on the night of May 3rd of 2007;
B) It was performed a simulation of kidnapping;
C) In order to avoid the death [alarm] of the minor before 22H00, it was created a situation of the children's surveillance by the McCann while the children slept;
D) Kate McCann and Gerald McCann are involved in the occultation of the cadaver of their child Madeleine McCann;
E) At this moment, there seems that there aren't strong indicia that the death of the minor didn't happen due to a tragic accident;
F) From what was obtained until now, everything points out that the McCann, as self-defence, didn't want to deliver immediately and voluntarily the cadaver, existing a strong possibility that the same was transported from the initial place of deposition. This situation is susceptible to raise questions about the circumstances under which the death of the minor occurred. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: sadie on May 13, 2016, 12:29:57 PM
Amaral presented the findings of the investigation as at September 2007 in his book;
A) The minor Madeleine McCann died in the apartment 5A of the Ocean Club resort, on the night of May 3rd of 2007;
B) It was performed a simulation of kidnapping;
C) In order to avoid the death [alarm] of the minor before 22H00, it was created a situation of the children's surveillance by the McCann while the children slept;
D) Kate McCann and Gerald McCann are involved in the occultation of the cadaver of their child Madeleine McCann;
E) At this moment, there seems that there aren't strong indicia that the death of the minor didn't happen due to a tragic accident;
F) From what was obtained until now, everything points out that the McCann, as self-defence, didn't want to deliver immediately and voluntarily the cadaver, existing a strong possibility that the same was transported from the initial place of deposition. This situation is susceptible to raise questions about the circumstances under which the death of the minor occurred. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm
So a report by one Portuguese Criminal about another Portuguese Criminal?
Tavares De Almeida was found guilty in the Portuguese Courts of the torture of Virgilino Borges and given a suspended sentence, of IIRC two and a half years Concalo Amaral was also found guilty in a Portuguese Court of Perjury in the Leonor Cipriano case.
Both men are officially criminals.
How much notice should we take about a report from one criminal about another? Both of whom were CI's attached to the Madeleine case and mates.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: sadie on May 13, 2016, 12:38:15 PM
Amaral presented the findings of the investigation as at September 2007 in his book;
A) The minor Madeleine McCann died in the apartment 5A of the Ocean Club resort, on the night of May 3rd of 2007;
B) It was performed a simulation of kidnapping;
C) In order to avoid the death [alarm] of the minor before 22H00, it was created a situation of the children's surveillance by the McCann while the children slept;
D) Kate McCann and Gerald McCann are involved in the occultation of the cadaver of their child Madeleine McCann;
E) At this moment, there seems that there aren't strong indicia that the death of the minor didn't happen due to a tragic accident;
F) From what was obtained until now, everything points out that the McCann, as self-defence, didn't want to deliver immediately and voluntarily the cadaver, existing a strong possibility that the same was transported from the initial place of deposition. This situation is susceptible to raise questions about the circumstances under which the death of the minor occurred. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm
Thanks to Ferryman
Re: The Tavares de Almeida torture conviction and its relevance to the case of Madeleine McCann. « Reply #2 on: August 28, 2013, 07:17:33 AM »
Almeida.
Pena suspensa para dupla da PJ condenada por tortura Dois inspetores-chefes da PJ foram condenados, esta sexta-feira, a dois anos e seis meses de prisão, com pena suspensa, por tortura contra o funcionário da CP Virgolino Borges, disse à Lusa o advogado da vítima. 25 de Janeiro, 18h09Nº de votos (5) Comentários (7)
A notícia da condenação dos dois inspetores da Polícia Judiciária foi avançada pela SIC Notícias. O coletivo de juízes da 3ªa vara criminal de Lisboa condenou pelo de tortura os inspetores-chefe José Diamantino Santos e Vitor Tavares de Almeida e ao pagamento de uma multa de 80 euros/mês pelo mesmo período, indicou à Lusa o advogado Jerónimo Martins.
Translation:
Suspended sentence for duo PJ convicted of torture Two chief inspectors of the PJ were sentenced on Friday to two years and six months imprisonment with suspended sentence for torture against the official CP Virgolino Borges, told Lusa the victim's lawyer. January 25, 18h09N of votes (5) Comments (7)
The news of the sentencing of two inspectors of the Judicial Police was advanced by SIC Notícias. The collective of judges from the 3rd to the criminal court of Lisbon condemned the torture inspectors Chief Joseph Diamond Santos and Vitor Tavares de Almeida and the payment of a fine of 80 euros / month for the same period, told the Lusa attorney Jerónimo Martins.
[My underline and emboldening]
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 13, 2016, 01:00:33 PM
So a report by one Portuguese Criminal about another Portuguese Criminal?
Tavares De Almeida was found guilty in the Portuguese Courts of the torture of Virgilino Borges and given a suspended sentence, of IIRC 2 and a half years Concalo Amaral was also found guilty in a Portuguese Court of Perjury in the Leonor Cipriano case.
Both men are officially criminals.
How much notice should we take about a report from one criminal about another? Both of whom were CI's attached to the Madeleine case and mates.
Whether you value the report or not is of no consequence. The fact remains that his conclusions matched those of the investigation.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 13, 2016, 02:59:23 PM
So a report by one Portuguese Criminal about another Portuguese Criminal?
Tavares De Almeida was found guilty in the Portuguese Courts of the torture of Virgilino Borges and given a suspended sentence, of IIRC two and a half years Concalo Amaral was also found guilty in a Portuguese Court of Perjury in the Leonor Cipriano case.
Both men are officially criminals.
How much notice should we take about a report from one criminal about another? Both of whom were CI's attached to the Madeleine case and mates.
Fine upstanding citizens are often quite bad at spotting criminals, hence we hear stories of people being relieved of their life savings by conmen.
Remember the old adage 'set a thief to catch a thief'. There is a school of thought which suggests that police and criminals are opposite sides of the same coin.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 13, 2016, 10:43:40 PM
Amaral has left the Police Force he has nothing to do with the McCann case anymore, the Portuguese Police are working along side SY.
Not according to sauces 8**8:/: It has been noticed and remarked upon how the Portugual Police are talking back and challenging the slurs which have been directed at them for a great many years. KARMA.
The PJ have got the uppr hand now because SY have come up with zilch after 'invetsigating' for many years and spemnding millions- we have food banks in the country-people are struggling to make ends meet and millions have been spent on empty gestures... It really is sickening.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 13, 2016, 10:47:26 PM
Not according to sauces 8**8:/: It has been noticed and remarked upon how the Portugual Police are talking back and challenging the slurs which have been directed at them for a great many years. KARMA.
The PJ have got the uppr hand now because SY have come up with zilch after 'invetsigating' for many years and spemnding millions- we have food banks in the country-people are struggling to make ends meet and millions have been spent on empty gestures... It really is sickening.
It does appear to have been a case of "we can do much better than you" and failing.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on May 14, 2016, 01:50:07 AM
IMO expect some high-rpm spinning this coming week to explain why there will be no appeal to the supreme court.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 14, 2016, 01:59:18 AM
Another own goal it will be and all predictable and predicted
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 14, 2016, 02:53:42 AM
I hope Gerry has complained with his Hacked Off hat on.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2016, 10:15:10 AM
This latest, perverse judgement, seems to rest on the fact none of the leaks from the shelved enquiry can be personally, and directly, attributable to Amaral ....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2016, 10:18:04 AM
This latest, perverse judgement, seems to rest on the fact none of the leaks from the shelved enquiry can be personally, and directly, attributable to Amaral ....
The judges went by Portuguese law.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2016, 10:27:44 AM
It is utterly perverse that Portuguese law does not hold retired police officers accountable for keeping secret details of an investigation they were personally, and directly, involved in after retirement, especially when the archiving dispatch is just weeks old when the (distorted) version of events (according to the person who, briefly, coordinated it) is released.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2016, 10:35:01 AM
Cut the Sniping. If you please. This is not a request.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2016, 10:41:14 AM
Portuguese law does not place a requirement on its ex-officers to keep quiet about cases they were personally, and directly, involved in.
It should.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 14, 2016, 11:46:39 AM
Portuguese law does not place a requirement on its ex-officers to keep quiet about cases they were personally, and directly, involved in.
It should.
Should it? why not write and tell them, via the EU, or you could just phone the Embassy. Tell em how it is.
On the other hand why should they? what effect has this had on your life?
It has not been proved by anyone that the book Sr Amaral wrote had an adverse affect(or indeed any, on the search for Madeliene, to accuse him of that is a disgrace- shunting the blame on him was a very low kick in my opinion. It has been a deflector BY THE PARENTS for many years.
In the meantime.... Poor Little Maddie.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on May 14, 2016, 02:14:52 PM
It is utterly perverse that Portuguese law does not hold retired police officers accountable for keeping secret details of an investigation they were personally, and directly, involved in after retirement, especially when the archiving dispatch is just weeks old when the (distorted) version of events (according to the person who, briefly, coordinated it) is released.
The court ruling made it clear that the book did not disclose any secrets of the investigation and all the information in the book had already been in the public domain before it had been written. What don't you understand about this?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2016, 02:33:50 PM
The court ruling made it clear that the book did not disclose any secrets of the investigation and all the information in the book had already been in the public domain before it had been written. What don't you understand about this?
Some people are simply not prepared to accept the judgement and therefore argue the toss.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 14, 2016, 03:33:24 PM
Portuguese law does not place a requirement on its ex-officers to keep quiet about cases they were personally, and directly, involved in.
It should.
What are the laws regarding this issue in other EU member states ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on May 14, 2016, 08:06:59 PM
My prediction is there will be no appeal, and this will be throughly spun in a 10000rpm pink blur, as nobly foregoing the right to appeal, in order to further the search.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on May 15, 2016, 01:11:55 PM
Please can someone clarify, if there is an appeal to the portuguese supreme court, would Mr Amaral's assets remain confiscated until that appeal process is completed?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 15, 2016, 01:12:47 PM
Please can someone clarify, if there is an appeal to the portuguese supreme court, would Mr Amaral's assets remain confiscated until that appeal process is completed?
I believe so, yes ....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 15, 2016, 01:15:24 PM
Are they confiscated at this moment, seeing as there has, as yet, been no appeal?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 15, 2016, 01:27:08 PM
There is a time-frame by which the McCanns must lodge their appeal. Nail any of the numerous leaks from the shelved enquiry personally, and directly, on Amaral and the McCanns will have him (I reckon) ....
Not sure how any of that might work. An appeal to the Supreme Court is not a re-trial, with new evidence - it is purely about points of law and whether the correct decision was made by the appeal judges.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 15, 2016, 01:45:56 PM
Not sure how any of that might work. An appeal to the Supreme Court is not a re-trial, with new evidence - it is purely about points of law and whether the correct decision was made by the appeal judges.
If anything germane from previous hearings has been missed, it will be admissible to a fresh hearing.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 15, 2016, 01:47:29 PM
Not sure how any of that might work. An appeal to the Supreme Court is not a re-trial, with new evidence - it is purely about points of law and whether the correct decision was made by the appeal judges.
That's it in a nutshell and since the right of free speech in Portugal is paramount and moreover has been adjudged to be paramount previously, I struggle to see what arguments Sra Duarte can put forward. For any argument to succeed there would have to be a significant and monumental change in Portuguese Law so realistically I can't see that happening any time soon.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2016, 02:12:43 PM
That's it in a nutshell and since the right of free speech in Portugal is paramount and moreover has been adjudged to be paramount previously, I struggle to see what arguments Sra Duarte can put forward. For any argument to succeed there would have to be a significant and monumental change in Portuguese Law so realistically I can't see that happening any time soon.
then that is why an appeal to the ECHR could well be successful.....i understand the limitations
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on May 15, 2016, 02:13:46 PM
then that is why an appeal to the ECHR could well be successful.....i understand the limitations
If they did that and won the Portuguese state may pay them something. Meanwhile Amaral has his money and is spending it. He is also making more if his book sells well. If Portugal then changes it's laws they can sue Amaral again if they're gluttons for punishment.
Will any of that restore their reputation? I doubt it, it's years too late for that. The only way their reputations can be restored is if someone else is found, tried and convicted of crimes against Madeleine. Even then, if the unlocked door played any part in the crime they will always bear the responsibility for their recklessness.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 15, 2016, 02:39:06 PM
If they did that and won the Portuguese state may pay them something. Meanwhile Amaral has his money and is spending it. He is also making more if his book sells well. If Portugal then changes it's laws they can sue Amaral again if they're gluttons for punishment.
Will any of that restore their reputation? I doubt it, it's years too late for that. The only way their reputations can be restored is if someone else is found, tried and convicted of crimes against Madeleine. Even then, if the unlocked door played any part in the crime they will always bear the responsibility for their recklessness.
Agreed.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2016, 02:42:25 PM
If they did that and won the Portuguese state may pay them something. Meanwhile Amaral has his money and is spending it. He is also making more if his book sells well. If Portugal then changes it's laws they can sue Amaral again if they're gluttons for punishment.
Will any of that restore their reputation? I doubt it, it's years too late for that. The only way their reputations can be restored is if someone else is found, tried and convicted of crimes against Madeleine. Even then, if the unlocked door played any part in the crime they will always bear the responsibility for their recklessness.
Most people think maddie was abducted imo....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 15, 2016, 04:01:43 PM
Planet Earth. The confused folk who don't believe also live on a mixed-up planet HETRA.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 15, 2016, 04:16:01 PM
So far as I can judge, this is the key bit of the ruling:
Quote
And, under such terms, although the introductory note in the book invokes personal reasons, in a situation of conflict with the rights to a good name and reputation of the subjects of the appeal, the appellant [Gonçalo Amaral] could not benefit, faced with the results of the investigation, of a broad and full freedom of expression – and thus his conduct would be unlawful, under article 484 of the Civil Code.
From what was above said about this matter, it is clearly understood that such argumentation cannot be sustained.
In effect, and independently of the reasons invoked by the appellant for the publication, it is hardly understandable that an employee, even more a retired one, would have to keep said duties of secrecy and reserve, thus being limited in the exercise of his right to an opinion, concerning the interpretation of facts that were already made public by the judiciary authority, and widely debated (in fact, largely by initiative of the intervenients themselves) in the national and international media.
This ruling is even worse than I thought.
Portuguese law places a clear obligation on serving PJ officers to observe judicial secrecy.
Yet this ruling says that even serving PJ officers should be exempt; Amaral, even more so, because he quit the PJ before he released onto the market his work of traducement and lies (to be clear, having breached judicial secrecy in getting it ready for publication so soon after the process was archived).
If any of the manifest breaches (of judicial secrecy) during the course of the investigation can be shown directly attributable to Amaral, then I don't see how this ruling can possibly be sustained.
And for these judges to hold that even serving police officers should not feel under any obligation to obey judicial secrecy surely demonstrates them incompetent, biased, or even corrupt?
How much money is left in the gofundme slush-fund, again?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 15, 2016, 04:19:53 PM
Apparently enough for the Supreme Court, but it has been said that more can be raised should it be needed.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 15, 2016, 04:21:40 PM
If they did that and won the Portuguese state may pay them something. Meanwhile Amaral has his money and is spending it. He is also making more if his book sells well. If Portugal then changes it's laws they can sue Amaral again if they're gluttons for punishment.
Will any of that restore their reputation? I doubt it, it's years too late for that. The only way their reputations can be restored is if someone else is found, tried and convicted of crimes against Madeleine. Even then, if the unlocked door played any part in the crime they will always bear the responsibility for their recklessness.
Indeed, and some people to this day feel they lost their reputations, what ever that was. due to their arrogance and behaviour before, after their daughters'disapperance'.
Davel now speaks and claims to know what 'most' people think- can we have stats for this claim or is it usual hot air.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2016, 04:25:28 PM
Indeed, and some people to this day feel they lost their reputations, what ever that was. due to their arrogance and behaviour before, after their daughters'disapperance'.
Davel now speaks and claims to know what 'most' people think- can we have stats for this claim or is it usual hot air.
I have not met anyone who thinks maddie died in an accident which was covered up. Pretty well all think Maddie was abducted and many criricise the mccanns for leaving maddie alone...how about you...and others.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 15, 2016, 04:40:16 PM
So far as I can judge, this is the key bit of the ruling:
This ruling is even worse than I thought.
Portuguese law places a clear obligation on serving PJ officers to observe judicial secrecy.
Yet this ruling says that even serving PJ officers should be exempt; Amaral, even more so, because he quit the PJ before he released onto the market his work of traducement and lies (to be clear, having breached judicial secrecy in getting it ready for publication so soon after the process was archived).
If any of the manifest breaches (of judicial secrecy) during the course of the investigation can be shown directly attributable to Amaral, then I don't see how this ruling can possibly be sustained.
And for these judges to hold that even serving police officers should not feel under any obligation to obey judicial secrecy surely demonstrates them incompetent, biased, or even corrupt?
How much money is left in the gofundme slush-fund, again?
Read again. They said it was OK to express an opinion;
concerning the interpretation of facts that were already made public by the judiciary authority, and widely debated (in fact, largely by initiative of the intervenients themselves) in the national and international media.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 15, 2016, 04:42:08 PM
I have not met anyone who thinks maddie died in an accident which was covered up. Pretty well all think Maddie was abducted and many criricise the mccanns for leaving maddie alone...how about you...and others.
So the stats are based on 'people you have met' and not the 'many in the world', so not 'many' really then. Good glad we got that sorted.
I don't claim to know and have never claimed to know what happened to Maddie, because I wasn't there. Based on parents and tapas accounts I do not beleive she was abducted, via a window.
Among my friends and colleagues the minority believe she was abducted, some theories I have heard are very plausable indeed.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2016, 04:45:10 PM
So the stats are based on 'people you have met' and not the 'many in the world', so not 'many' really then. Good glad we got that sorted.
I don't claim to know and have never claimed to know what happened to Maddie, because I wasn't there. Based on parents and tapas accounts I do not beleive she was abducted, via a window.
Among my friends and colleagues the minority believe she was abducted, some theories I have heard are very plausable indeed.
perhaps you would like to share what the majority of your friends think..
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 15, 2016, 05:01:06 PM
perhaps you would like to share what the majority of your friends think..
That varies Davel from one to another. During various conversations these were suggested: some go for an accident outside the flat going to get parents, some inside the flat(taking parents pills of sorts?)finding and drinking alcohol and dying as a result. 7 people all suggested (libel removed) 4 people suggested Maddie had an accident and (libel removed)( This is not unusual in Social work/health cases of children under their care). Walked and wandered ( I find this one more plausible) and picked up by good person/bad person. No one has said they believe any of the suggestions, they were just suggesting theories, and not one of us have claimed the parents killed their daughter, but all of us are perplexed by the behaviour and are suspicious of them.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on May 18, 2016, 06:06:08 PM
http://www.dnoticias.pt/node/575248
O Supremo Tribunal de Justiça determinou hoje o reenvio do processo da inspetora da PJ Ana Saltão, condenada por homicídio, para novo julgamento no Tribunal da Relação de Coimbra.
O Supremo Tribunal de Justiça (STJ), após recurso da defesa, decidiu baixar os autos ao Tribunal da Relação de Coimbra (TRC), decretando "novo julgamento relativamente à totalidade do objeto do processo".
O STJ sustenta-se nos vícios da decisão da Relação de Coimbra apontados pelo próprio Ministério Público, questionando ainda a matéria de facto dada como provada pelo TRC.
Os vícios apresentados pelo acórdão do TRC chocam "com a determinação da matéria de facto", cuja competência é exclusiva das instâncias, sendo que apenas com um novo julgamento será possível suprir os vícios identificados, explica o STJ.
A inspetora da Polícia Judiciária Ana Saltão foi condenada pelo Tribunal da Relação a 17 anos de prisão pelo homicídio da avó do marido em 2012, após a absolvição na primeira instância, num julgamento com tribunal de júri.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
The Supreme Court today ordered the return of the inspector of the PJ Ana Saltão process, convicted of murder for retrial in the Court of Appeal of Coimbra.
The Supreme Court of Justice (STJ), after defending the appeal, decided to lower the case to the Court of Appeal of Coimbra (TRC), decreeing "retrial over the entire process of the object."
The STJ holds up the vices of the decision of Coimbra Relationship appointed by himself prosecutor, still questioning the matter of fact made by the TRC.
Vices presented by the TRC's judgment collide "with the determination of the facts", whose jurisdiction is exclusive of the instances, and only with a new trial will be possible to supply the defects identified, said the STJ.
The Inspector of Judicial Police Ana Saltão was condemned by the Court of Appeal to 17 years in prison for husband's grandmother's murder in 2012, after the acquittal in the first.
Good to see that the Supreme Court do overturn Appeal Court reversals of Lower Court decisions.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 18, 2016, 06:12:40 PM
I see the court has ordered a retrial. Does this mean that whatever the result of this retrial, the case can again go to the Appeal Court and perhaps the Supreme Court as well ?
Will there ever be a result ? ?{)(**
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on May 18, 2016, 06:16:08 PM
I see the court has ordered a retrial. Does this mean that whatever the result of this retrial, the case can again go to the Appeal Court and perhaps the Supreme Court as well ?
Will there ever be a result ? ?{)(**
How very vexatious it all is.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 18, 2016, 06:24:18 PM
We will soon know when MSM in the Uk start trashing the country and its subjects and legal system... oh I meant to say AGAIN.
That bit of Portuguese law which says you can spout any (otherwise) libellous trash you want and get away with it shouldn't just be trashed.
It should be changed.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 24, 2016, 03:15:28 PM
Apparently the delightfully magnanimous Goncalo Amaral is muttering darkly against the dastardly bounders who have put his book free on the internet ....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on May 24, 2016, 03:18:37 PM
Apparently the delightfully magnanimous Goncalo Amaral is muttering darkly against the dastardly bounders who have put his book free on the internet ....
I thought he was grateful that the only place his book could be read not so long ago was on the internet? &%+((£
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 24, 2016, 03:36:22 PM
Stephen, try not to get your disappointment (that the McCanns have lodged an appeal!) get to you too much.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 24, 2016, 03:40:04 PM
Is everyone feeding off everyone else at the moment with no definitive source ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 24, 2016, 03:43:31 PM
Is everyone feeding off everyone else at the moment with no definitive source ?
The lack of a reliable source does make me wonder. Time will tell.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 24, 2016, 03:56:10 PM
Hands up all those who expected the McCanns would not appeal the last judgement. I know this will incur the wrath of some but it is the next card to play in the game so why should it come as a surprise or be anything to become agitated about or even comment upon when it is played ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 24, 2016, 03:59:09 PM
Hands up all those who expected the McCanns would not appeal the last judgement. I know this will incur the wrath of some but it is the next card to play in the game so why should it come as a surprise or be anything to become agitated about or even comment upon when it is played ?
It is a veritable disgrace that a book should ever have been allowed to see light of day.
Allegations that lower reputation are the antithesis of free speech and the ruling (of the court of first-instance) should never have been contested (aside, possibly, on grounds that the level of compensation to the McCanns was too low).
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on May 24, 2016, 04:11:24 PM
Hands up all those who expected the McCanns would not appeal the last judgement. I know this will incur the wrath of some but it is the next card to play in the game so why should it come as a surprise or be anything to become agitated about or even comment upon when it is played ?
They said they would appeal it so have to follow through Alice. However, it will be interesting to see on what basis Sra Duarte has made the submission and more to the point whether the Supreme Court will accept it.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on May 24, 2016, 04:39:34 PM
Hands up all those who expected the McCanns would not appeal the last judgement. I know this will incur the wrath of some but it is the next card to play in the game so why should it come as a surprise or be anything to become agitated about or even comment upon when it is played ?
As I said ages ago there will be no appeal to the supreme court IMO
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on May 24, 2016, 06:10:38 PM
They said they would appeal it so have to follow through Alice. However, it will be interesting to see on what basis Sra Duarte has made the submission and more to the point whether the Supreme Court will accept it.
Isabel Duarte does what her clients, the McCanns, tell her to do. I wouldn't have expected them not to lodge an appeal.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 24, 2016, 06:58:47 PM
They said they would appeal it so have to follow through Alice. However, it will be interesting to see on what basis Sra Duarte has made the submission and more to the point whether the Supreme Court will accept it.
Oh yes. If the submission has been made and when[ if ] it is rejected you could write "the friend's" script for them couldn't you 8(0(*
Edit. first word of main sentence changed to "if" such that the sense remains the same which is the point of the post not arguments about whether an appeal has been made and where it is recorded. lots of love AP ?{)(**
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 24, 2016, 07:11:34 PM
No appeal has been made. If one is (I doubt it) it will be posted at http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
I'm certainly surprised that we haven't seen an official announcement anywhere as yet.
All very subdued.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on May 24, 2016, 08:39:11 PM
The appeal has been filed. Now the defendants have 30 days to present their counter arguments. As with Gonçalo Amaral's appeal, the court must accept the appeal if all the formal requirements have been fulfilled. A ruling should not be expected for awhile.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 24, 2016, 08:59:47 PM
Why let half a million euro plus a not very important it seems to them and others reputation for book bannng pass you by if the chance is there
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on May 25, 2016, 01:16:56 PM
"An appeal to the Supreme Court has been filed by the lawyer on behalf of the McCanns. PJGA will assume the legal costs for Gonçalo Amaral, thanks to your contributions. We remain confident, as always, that Justice will be served and Freedom of Speech, of Opinion and of Information will prevail. Posted by PJGA at Wednesday, May 25, 2016" http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on May 25, 2016, 01:23:40 PM
Have MFLNSU Ltd ever thanked their donators for funding the legal expenses of launching this private lawsuit?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on May 25, 2016, 01:31:13 PM
MFLNSU website at this moment has absolutely no mention of this supreme court appeal.
If this legal action is important and essential to the search, how come they don't even mention it?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on May 25, 2016, 01:48:14 PM
PJGA, as promised, announced it as soon as they were informed. In contrast MFLNSU do not at the moment bother informing their donators about it. Surely the public, who donated many thousands of pounds which MFLNSU spent to fund the legal expenses of launching the case and for the airfares and hotels of witnesses, deserve to be told?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on May 25, 2016, 02:18:35 PM
PJGA, as promised, announced it as soon as they were informed. In contrast MFLNSU do not at the moment bother informing their donators about it. Surely the public, who donated many thousands of pounds which MFLNSU spent to fund the legal expenses of launching the case and for the airfares and hotels of witnesses, deserve to be told?
Sofia Amaral knew the night before last, as confirmed by the Seal Beach poster. Why would the MFLNSU wish to upstage the support for all missing children today?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on May 25, 2016, 02:30:52 PM
Sofia Amaral knew the night before last, as confirmed by the Seal Beach poster. Why would the MFLNSU wish to upstage the support for all missing children today?
Do you think this is essential and important progress in the search for the child Misty? If so why haven't MFLNSU even mentioned it yet?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on May 25, 2016, 02:46:44 PM
Do you think this is essential and important progress in the search for the child Misty? If so why haven't MFLNSU even mentioned it yet?
Like Mr Amaral's book and the subsequent legal action following on from it, all has been a diversion from the search for Madeleine that her parents especially and all who care about finding out what happened to her could well have done without.
It mystifies me why it is failed to be recognised that only because of the superhuman effort of her parents is there any search at all going on for her now. It was only her parents' efforts since before the archiving of her case until Scotland Yard took up her case that kept that search ongoing.
All that despite every ingenuity known to man employed without let for nine years to put obstacles in the way of their efforts on Madeleine's behalf from social media campaigns spreading lies and misapprehension ~ to petitions ~ to FOI's too numerous to account etcetera, etcetera ...
Mr Amaral's book was the catalyst for all of that so misdirection in the search for the child stems from there.
I believe the judgement in his favour on appeal was an aberration and I applaud the McCanns for continuing to fight on Madeleine's behalf by challenging it.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: faithlilly on May 25, 2016, 03:13:20 PM
Like Mr Amaral's book and the subsequent legal action following on from it, all has been a diversion from the search for Madeleine that her parents especially and all who care about finding out what happened to her could well have done without.
It mystifies me why it is failed to be recognised that only because of the superhuman effort of her parents is there any search at all going on for her now. It was only her parents' efforts since before the archiving of her case until Scotland Yard took up her case that kept that search ongoing.
All that despite every ingenuity known to man employed without let for nine years to put obstacles in the way of their efforts on Madeleine's behalf from social media campaigns spreading lies and misapprehension ~ to petitions ~ to FOI's too numerous to account etcetera, etcetera ...
Mr Amaral's book was the catalyst for all of that so misdirection in the search for the child stems from there.
I believe the judgement in his favour on appeal was an aberration and I applaud the McCanns for continuing to fight on Madeleine's behalf by challenging it.
And if their appeal to the SC fails ? If they have to pay all court costs. Where do you propose that money comes from ? Surely not the money earmarked to continue the search ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on May 25, 2016, 03:32:12 PM
And if their appeal to the SC fails ? If they have to pay all court costs. Where do you propose that money comes from ? Surely not the money earmarked to continue the search ?
Not my concern and surely none of yours ... unless you are giving serious thought to organising a Crowdfunding campaign?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: faithlilly on May 25, 2016, 03:35:37 PM
Not my concern and surely none of yours ... unless you are giving serious thought to organising a Crowdfunding campaign?
Not your concern ? I thought finding the child was all you supporters wanted so surely safeguarding the money needed to do that SHOULD be your concern ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 25, 2016, 03:36:31 PM
Not your concern ? I thought finding the child was all you supporters wanted so surely safeguarding the money needed to do that SHOULD be your concern ?
Why "SHOULD" something which is entirely none of my business or anyone else's apart from those directly affected for that matter be my concern?
I consider it is not; apart from wishing them every success.
Nor do I rate those who for nine years have made it their business to attack Madeleine's fund in any which way they can.
As you have rightly pointed out, finding the child involves "safeguarding the money needed" to carry out exactly that purpose.
Any reason you can think of why people have chosen to attack those "safeguarding the money needed" to search for Madeleine ~ the missing child to whom you refer?
Any reason why there has been a nine year campaign to undermine the Madeleine fund?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on May 25, 2016, 05:24:54 PM
Anyone enjoying the prospect of Amaral sueing the McCanns may have to prepare to have their bubbles burst:
Amaral on the possibility of sueing the McCanns: "I've to tell you another thing, to sue the McCann couple alone, what for? They're over there in England, I would have to go there, for an eventual thing, that would take years, and then would the sentence be executed there in England? It would have to be done by a number of people".
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 25, 2016, 05:27:07 PM
Why "SHOULD" something which is entirely none of my business or anyone else's apart from those directly affected for that matter be my concern?
I consider it is not; apart from wishing them every success.
Nor do I rate those who for nine years have made it their business to attack Madeleine's fund in any which way they can.
As you have rightly pointed out, finding the child involves "safeguarding the money needed" to carry out exactly that purpose.
Any reason you can think of why people have chosen to attack those "safeguarding the money needed" to search for Madeleine ~ the missing child to whom you refer?
Any reason why there has been a nine year campaign to undermine the Madeleine fund?
Maybe because the fund was sold as transparent and had originally intended to be a charity?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 25, 2016, 05:30:19 PM
Like Mr Amaral's book and the subsequent legal action following on from it, all has been a diversion from the search for Madeleine that her parents especially and all who care about finding out what happened to her could well have done without.
It mystifies me why it is failed to be recognised that only because of the superhuman effort of her parents is there any search at all going on for her now. It was only her parents' efforts since before the archiving of her case until Scotland Yard took up her case that kept that search ongoing.
All that despite every ingenuity known to man employed without let for nine years to put obstacles in the way of their efforts on Madeleine's behalf from social media campaigns spreading lies and misapprehension ~ to petitions ~ to FOI's too numerous to account etcetera, etcetera ...
Mr Amaral's book was the catalyst for all of that so misdirection in the search for the child stems from there.
I believe the judgement in his favour on appeal was an aberration and I applaud the McCanns for continuing to fight on Madeleine's behalf by challenging it.
Even the judge in the lower court rejected the contention that the book harmed the search for Madeleine, so that's an unconfirmed assertion. The damages were awarded to the parents so the Appeal is about the parents not about Madeleine.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 25, 2016, 05:45:50 PM
Anyone enjoying the prospect of Amaral sueing the McCanns may have to prepare to have their bubbles burst:
Amaral on the possibility of sueing the McCanns: "I've to tell you another thing, to sue the McCann couple alone, what for? They're over there in England, I would have to go there, for an eventual thing, that would take years, and then would the sentence be executed there in England? It would have to be done by a number of people".
It would be interesting to know if there are even any realistic grounds on which Mr Amaral might raise a case.
His assets were frozen by a Portuguese court, so I cannot see an English court permitting an action on that.
His book sale income etc likewise was decided by a Portuguese court.
That seems to leave defamation of character. As far as I am aware, the McCanns have used litigation, not defamation, so how could that work?
That appears to leave Mr Amaral with the Portuguese courts as a route, and I can't see how he could bring an action in Portugal. We're back to the sticking points that it was Portuguese courts that froze assets, stopped sale of the book and DVD.
Could Mr Amaral raise an action on the basis that his right to a good name has been infringed? I can't see that either as it was Portuguese courts accepting the McCann action.
Even if he could raise a case in either country, it would take years, cost a pretty penny, there is no guarantee of a successful outcome, and would a victory amount to much?
I suspect he is smart enough to stand back from that and simply deploy freedom of expression instead.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 25, 2016, 05:48:21 PM
Maybe because the fund was sold as transparent and had originally intended to be a charity?
To flesh that out more fully, they were advised by the Charity Commission that the remit (of the appeal, for just one person) was too narrow to qualify as a charity, so they were obliged (by rules and regulations) to set it up as a business.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 25, 2016, 05:50:27 PM
To flesh that out more fully, they were advised by the Charity Commission that the remit (of the appeal, for just one person) was too narrow to qualify as a charity, so they were obliged (by rules and regulations) to set it up as a business.
...and?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 25, 2016, 05:55:06 PM
A question. They won damages against the Express. And chose to have this paid to the fund.
So - is that "their own" money?
As soon as it shows on the company account it belongs to the company unless it was a loan to the company in which case the amount and terms of the loan will listed somewhere then should interest be payable on such loan it would show in the accounts. Come on J-P you know that.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on May 25, 2016, 06:06:58 PM
Maybe because the fund was sold as transparent and had originally intended to be a charity?
That may be your opinion ... it is not mine ... mainly because all the requirements of Madeleine's Fund have been met in every way.
The book in my opinion has been most unhelpful in helping Madeleine's case.
In Faithlilly's opinion the money in Madeleine's Fund warrants safeguarding because it is needed to find her.
The genesis of the "fraudulent fund" myth and the subsequent nine year attacks on what is recognised as a vehicle to assist Madeleine, can be read below and is recognised by the author as an "inopportune" "undiplomatic" and "an ill-judged comment".
The vagaries of the law have allowed character assassination such as this and much worse to be excused forcing the innocent party into the appeal courts when the toss of a coin and best of three might make as much sense as what we have seen.
FRAUD OR ABUSE OF TRUST?
During a more relaxed moment at one of these meetings, I come out with an ill-judged comment. Inopportune or undiplomatic, but this is my reasoning: thinking about the kinds of crime that may have been committed if the McCanns were involved in their daughter's disappearance, something occurs to me. If they were involved in one way or another, then a crime of fraud or abuse of trust is a possibility concerning the fund that was set up to finance the search for Madeleine. Donations have reached nearly 3 million Euros.
If such a crime exists, Portugal would not have jurisdiction to investigate and try it. The fund being legally registered in England, it would be our English colleagues who would deal with the case. Our English colleagues then realise a hard reality: the strong possibility that they would have a crime to investigate in their own country, with the McCann couple as the main suspects: a prospect that does not seem to appeal to them. I notice a sudden pallor in the faces of those British people present. Goncalo Amaral
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 25, 2016, 06:07:41 PM
It would be interesting to know if there are even any realistic grounds on which Mr Amaral might raise a case.
His assets were frozen by a Portuguese court, so I cannot see an English court permitting an action on that.
His book sale income etc likewise was decided by a Portuguese court.
That seems to leave defamation of character. As far as I am aware, the McCanns have used litigation, not defamation, so how could that work?
That appears to leave Mr Amaral with the Portuguese courts as a route, and I can't see how he could bring an action in Portugal. We're back to the sticking points that it was Portuguese courts that froze assets, stopped sale of the book and DVD.
Could Mr Amaral raise an action on the basis that his right to a good name has been infringed? I can't see that either as it was Portuguese courts accepting the McCann action.
Even if he could raise a case in either country, it would take years, cost a pretty penny, there is no guarantee of a successful outcome, and would a victory amount to much?
I suspect he is smart enough to stand back from that and simply deploy freedom of expression instead.
That is well thought through and I would agree with the conclusion you have reached.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on May 25, 2016, 06:09:46 PM
Even the judge in the lower court rejected the contention that the book harmed the search for Madeleine, so that's an unconfirmed assertion. The damages were awarded to the parents so the Appeal is about the parents not about Madeleine.
I take it that either you have failed to read Faithlilly's post ... or if you have, you disagree?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on May 25, 2016, 06:09:56 PM
It would be interesting to know if there are even any realistic grounds on which Mr Amaral might raise a case.
His assets were frozen by a Portuguese court, so I cannot see an English court permitting an action on that.
His book sale income etc likewise was decided by a Portuguese court.
That seems to leave defamation of character. As far as I am aware, the McCanns have used litigation, not defamation, so how could that work?
That appears to leave Mr Amaral with the Portuguese courts as a route, and I can't see how he could bring an action in Portugal. We're back to the sticking points that it was Portuguese courts that froze assets, stopped sale of the book and DVD.
Could Mr Amaral raise an action on the basis that his right to a good name has been infringed? I can't see that either as it was Portuguese courts accepting the McCann action.
Even if he could raise a case in either country, it would take years, cost a pretty penny, there is no guarantee of a successful outcome, and would a victory amount to much?
I suspect he is smart enough to stand back from that and simply deploy freedom of expression instead.
If he was that smart he would have thought it all through first without making empty threats and raising his fan club's hopes.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 25, 2016, 06:21:29 PM
If he was that smart he would have thought it all through first without making empty threats and raising his fan club's hopes.
I doubt that was the reason. It was more like to creating ring twitter in certain areas. Although if he has any sense he will avoid going to the UK to sue anyone:
"English defamation law puts the burden of proving the truth of allegedly defamatory statements on the defendant, rather than the plaintiff, and has been considered an impediment to free speech in much of the developed world. In many cases of libel tourism, plaintiffs sued in England to censor critical works when their home countries would reject the case outright. In the United States, the 2010 SPEECH Act makes foreign libel judgements unenforceable in U.S. courts if they don't comply with US free speech law, largely in response to the English laws".
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 25, 2016, 06:27:04 PM
That may be your opinion ... it is not mine ... mainly because all the requirements of Madeleine's Fund have been met in every way.
The book in my opinion has been most unhelpful in helping Madeleine's case.
In Faithlilly's opinion the money in Madeleine's Fund warrants safeguarding because it is needed to find her.
The genesis of the "fraudulent fund" myth and the subsequent nine year attacks on what is recognised as a vehicle to assist Madeleine, can be read below and is recognised by the author as an "inopportune" "undiplomatic" and "an ill-judged comment".
The vagaries of the law have allowed character assassination such as this and much worse to be excused forcing the innocent party into the appeal courts when the toss of a coin and best of three might make as much sense as what we have seen.
FRAUD OR ABUSE OF TRUST?
During a more relaxed moment at one of these meetings, I come out with an ill-judged comment. Inopportune or undiplomatic, but this is my reasoning: thinking about the kinds of crime that may have been committed if the McCanns were involved in their daughter's disappearance, something occurs to me. If they were involved in one way or another, then a crime of fraud or abuse of trust is a possibility concerning the fund that was set up to finance the search for Madeleine. Donations have reached nearly 3 million Euros.
If such a crime exists, Portugal would not have jurisdiction to investigate and try it. The fund being legally registered in England, it would be our English colleagues who would deal with the case. Our English colleagues then realise a hard reality: the strong possibility that they would have a crime to investigate in their own country, with the McCann couple as the main suspects: a prospect that does not seem to appeal to them. I notice a sudden pallor in the faces of those British people present. Goncalo Amaral
That hangs together neither in time nor known detail.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on May 25, 2016, 06:28:19 PM
I doubt that was the reason. It was more like to creating ring twitter in certain areas. Although if he has any sense he will avoid going to the UK to sue anyone:
"English defamation law puts the burden of proving the truth of allegedly defamatory statements on the defendant, rather than the plaintiff, and has been considered an impediment to free speech in much of the developed world. In many cases of libel tourism, plaintiffs sued in England to censor critical works when their home countries would reject the case outright. In the United States, the 2010 SPEECH Act makes foreign libel judgements unenforceable in U.S. courts if they don't comply with US free speech law, largely in response to the English laws".
Ring twitter? Charming turn of phrase. If he thought his empty threats might be a cause of such a phenomenon then he's even dafter than he looks.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 25, 2016, 06:43:05 PM
Ring twitter? Charming turn of phrase. If he thought his empty threats might be a cause of such a phenomenon then he's even dafter than he looks.
That is distinctly possible Alfie. You should have worked out that you are kicking against an open door there. Mind you don't hurt your feet to no avail @)(++(*
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on May 25, 2016, 06:56:08 PM
A question. They won damages against the Express. And chose to have this paid to the fund.
So - is that "their own" money?
MFLNSU's money may be spent by the directors only on its two stated "objects".
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 25, 2016, 08:08:34 PM
I feel certain parties will be pleased to hear that if Amaral requires any further funding for legal expenses, police officers , current and ex, who have already donated to him, will happily do so again.
AS WILL OTHERS.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 25, 2016, 08:09:37 PM
If he was that smart he would have thought it all through first without making empty threats and raising his fan club's hopes.
At the moment I am more in favour of Mr Amaral's PR than the McCanns PR.
I am not into predicting what Mr Amaral might do next, but he has gathered enough material for another 2 or 3 TV interviews or another chapter in a book.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with the underlying case. It simply seems that Mr Amaral is more adept at influencing public opinion than the McCanns, and/or friends.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 25, 2016, 08:44:08 PM
At the moment I am more in favour of Mr Amaral's PR than the McCanns PR.
I am not into predicting what Mr Amaral might do next, but he has gathered enough material for another 2 or 3 TV interviews or another chapter in a book.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with the underlying case. It simply seems that Mr Amaral is more adept at influencing public opinion than the McCanns, and/or friends.
Perhaps it's because he's not trying to influence public opinion.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on May 25, 2016, 08:46:23 PM
Meanwhile a little girl remains missing presumed dead. What of the search?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 25, 2016, 08:50:43 PM
Meanwhile a little girl remains missing presumed dead. What of the search?
I thought we had been told there are 4 officers remaining looking at one final lead, which the Portuguese are not interested in, as they have already questioned the 3 men.
Also, with the legal fees ever increasing, how much of the fund remains ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on May 25, 2016, 08:59:08 PM
At the moment I am more in favour of Mr Amaral's PR than the McCanns PR.
I am not into predicting what Mr Amaral might do next, but he has gathered enough material for another 2 or 3 TV interviews or another chapter in a book.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with the underlying case. It simply seems that Mr Amaral is more adept at influencing public opinion than the McCanns, and/or friends.
Oh? And what is the public's opinion of Amaral?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 25, 2016, 09:31:01 PM
I'm (me, myself, I) am measuring it by the feedforward and feedback I get on this.
Example. When Heri last visited Luz, he encountered CdMTV on 3 May 2016, the only team I know of who covered the 9th anniversary.
He chatted to the team for 15mins, and explained his interrupted burglary theory. CdMTV listened, then said the Portuguese public was not interested in anything other than 'the McCanns dunnit'.
I haven't seen the piece CdMTV did, nor do I care. That's Portugal done - do you wish to move the debate on to another European country?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on May 25, 2016, 09:57:38 PM
I'm (me, myself, I) am measuring it by the feedforward and feedback I get on this.
Example. When Heri last visited Luz, he encountered CdMTV on 3 May 2016, the only team I know of who covered the 9th anniversary.
He chatted to the team for 15mins, and explained his interrupted burglary theory. CdMTV listened, then said the Portuguese public was not interested in anything other than 'the McCanns dunnit'.
I haven't seen the piece CdMTV did, nor do I care. That's Portugal done - do you wish to move the debate on to another European country?
That isn't going to happen, is it. Madeleine disappeared from Portugal, who appear to wish to believe that her parents dunnit.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 25, 2016, 10:04:00 PM
I'm (me, myself, I) am measuring it by the feedforward and feedback I get on this.
Example. When Heri last visited Luz, he encountered CdMTV on 3 May 2016, the only team I know of who covered the 9th anniversary.
He chatted to the team for 15mins, and explained his interrupted burglary theory. CdMTV listened, then said the Portuguese public was not interested in anything other than 'the McCanns dunnit'.
I haven't seen the piece CdMTV did, nor do I care. That's Portugal done - do you wish to move the debate on to another European country?
Perhaps he should speak to The Sun, they might listen.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on May 25, 2016, 10:23:02 PM
I'm (me, myself, I) am measuring it by the feedforward and feedback I get on this.
Example. When Heri last visited Luz, he encountered CdMTV on 3 May 2016, the only team I know of who covered the 9th anniversary.
He chatted to the team for 15mins, and explained his interrupted burglary theory. CdMTV listened, then said the Portuguese public was not interested in anything other than 'the McCanns dunnit'.
I haven't seen the piece CdMTV did, nor do I care. That's Portugal done - do you wish to move the debate on to another European country?
I doubt very much that the journalist for CMTV said anything of the sort. I was interviewed by them 2 years ago in Praia da Luz and I was asked what I thought had happened to Madeleine. The journalist certainly did not give his opinion about the case, that is not their job. That would have been highly unprofessional on their part. BTW there have been articles in CdM about the botched burglary theory.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 25, 2016, 10:29:18 PM
I'm (me, myself, I) am measuring it by the feedforward and feedback I get on this.
Example. When Heri last visited Luz, he encountered CdMTV on 3 May 2016, the only team I know of who covered the 9th anniversary.
He chatted to the team for 15mins, and explained his interrupted burglary theory. CdMTV listened, then said the Portuguese public was not interested in anything other than 'the McCanns dunnit'.
I haven't seen the piece CdMTV did, nor do I care. That's Portugal done - do you wish to move the debate on to another European country?
So if you think the McCanns dunnit then that automatically means you think Amaral's a top fella, is that how it works? OK, so let's move the debate on to the UK - how popular is Amaral with the GBP do you think?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Eleanor on May 25, 2016, 10:36:49 PM
Did you not read enid odowds forensic analysis of the accounts/fund set up? The mccanns were given the chance to make it a charity but they were in a hurry (day or so) to make it into a ltd company http://www.mccannfiles.com/id405.html
This is simply not true.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 25, 2016, 10:43:28 PM
Indeed it does, the mccans refused the charity status it seems which is in direct opposition to ferrymans alledged they had no choice
so to be clear, you're suggesting that a charity can be legally registered to raise funds to find one individual person?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on May 25, 2016, 10:59:12 PM
Instead of relying on Enid O'Dowd cites, perhaps some of you should read the following government guidelines on setting up a charity and then tell me how a fund to find one child could qualify as a charity?
The public benefit requirement Your charity’s ‘purpose’ is what it is set up to achieve. For an organisation to be a charity, each of its purposes must be for the public benefit. The Charities Act 2011 calls this the ‘public benefit requirement’.
The public benefit requirement has two aspects:
The ‘benefit aspect’ To satisfy this aspect:
a purpose must be beneficial - this must be in a way that is identifiable and capable of being proved by evidence where necessary and which is not based on personal views any detriment or harm that results from the purpose (to people, property or the environment) must not outweigh the benefit - this is also based on evidence and not on personal views The ‘public aspect’ To satisfy this aspect the purpose must:
benefit the public in general, or a sufficient section of the public - what is a ‘sufficient section of the public’ varies from purpose to purpose not give rise to more than incidental personal benefit - personal benefit is ‘incidental’ where (having regard both to its nature and to its amount) it is a necessary result or by-product of carrying out the purpose In general, for a purpose to be a charitable purpose it must satisfy both the benefit and the public aspects. However, charities for the relief (and in some cases the prevention) of poverty need only satisfy the benefit aspect.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 25, 2016, 11:03:09 PM
Instead of relying on Enid O'Dowd cites, perhaps some of you should read the following government guidelines on setting up a charity and then tell me how a fund to find one child could qualify as a charity?
The public benefit requirement Your charity’s ‘purpose’ is what it is set up to achieve. For an organisation to be a charity, each of its purposes must be for the public benefit. The Charities Act 2011 calls this the ‘public benefit requirement’.
The public benefit requirement has two aspects:
The ‘benefit aspect’ To satisfy this aspect:
a purpose must be beneficial - this must be in a way that is identifiable and capable of being proved by evidence where necessary and which is not based on personal views any detriment or harm that results from the purpose (to people, property or the environment) must not outweigh the benefit - this is also based on evidence and not on personal views The ‘public aspect’ To satisfy this aspect the purpose must:
benefit the public in general, or a sufficient section of the public - what is a ‘sufficient section of the public’ varies from purpose to purpose not give rise to more than incidental personal benefit - personal benefit is ‘incidental’ where (having regard both to its nature and to its amount) it is a necessary result or by-product of carrying out the purpose In general, for a purpose to be a charitable purpose it must satisfy both the benefit and the public aspects. However, charities for the relief (and in some cases the prevention) of poverty need only satisfy the benefit aspect.
What a waste of bandwidth The POINT is the mccanns were apparently given the chance to make it a charity, do keep up
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on May 25, 2016, 11:06:44 PM
Im not suggesting anything, i posted a link to a professional accountant who said the commission were willing to do so,take it up with them
Then your professional accountant quite obviously needs to do a refresher course on the legislation relating to setting up a charity.
Any fundraising for an individual cannot be done by setting up a charity as this only benefits one person (i.e. it is not for public benefit). For more information about methods to fundraise for an individual, please go to: www.institute-offundraising.org.uk/fundraisingforanindividual.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on May 25, 2016, 11:12:28 PM
What a waste of bandwidth The POINT is the mccanns were apparently given the chance to make it a charity, do keep up
Given a chance to bend the rules and set up a charity to benefit one person, namely Madeleine McCann? Please let's have a direct cite for that that doesn't come from a sceptic blog, many thanks in advance for your cooperation.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 25, 2016, 11:19:21 PM
Then your professional accountant quite obviously needs to do a refresher course on the legislation relating to setting up a charity.
Any fundraising for an individual cannot be done by setting up a charity as this only benefits one person (i.e. it is not for public benefit). For more information about methods to fundraise for an individual, please go to: www.institute-offundraising.org.uk/fundraisingforanindividual.
Shes not MY professional accountant, she just is one, and I suggest you READ the accoutn and then counter anythng in it instead of asking ME as IM bot an accountant just a messenger ok?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 25, 2016, 11:25:02 PM
Try this for size. More tomorrow 8(>(( https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-set-up-a-charity-cc21a
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 25, 2016, 11:25:29 PM
Given a chance to bend the rules and set up a charity to benefit one person, namely Madeleine McCann? Please let's have a direct cite for that that doesn't come from a sceptic blog, many thanks in advance for your cooperation.
The facts are contaned therein Im sure the hmrc will not be sending soca or the squad police..did you actually read as far as who offered them charity status? And they refused????
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 25, 2016, 11:37:04 PM
I doubt very much that the journalist for CMTV said anything of the sort. I was interviewed by them 2 years ago in Praia da Luz and I was asked what I thought had happened to Madeleine. The journalist certainly did not give his opinion about the case, that is not their job. That would have been highly unprofessional on their part. BTW there have been articles in CdM about the botched burglary theory.
Then look up the piece CdMTV did in Luz on the 9th anniversary and we will have it straight from the horse's mouth.
Or it's about what was discussed with me, and your opinion of how journalists conduct themselves. Neither of which really matters.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 25, 2016, 11:50:57 PM
So if you think the McCanns dunnit then that automatically means you think Amaral's a top fella, is that how it works? OK, so let's move the debate on to the UK - how popular is Amaral with the GBP do you think?
Outside a certain small and vociferous percentage of the UK population, I would think he is almost unheard of.
When it comes to that small percentage of the population, I would think, judging by everything I can see, he is more popular.
This is not a popularity contest.
The issue was PR, and whether Amaral or the McCanns are better at it. The McCanns have been much more prominent in the UK, but they have managed too many PR gaffes. They don't need Amaral to win. They simply need to stop losing.
Relating this to the thread topic, the McCanns are akin to playing a game of sport that will only ever be played under Portuguese rules, without understanding those rules, whilst Amaral does.
Nowt to do with the case. Everything to do with the damages trial.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 26, 2016, 12:00:17 AM
Outside a certain small and vociferous percentage of the UK population, I would think he is almost unheard of.
When it comes to that small percentage of the population, I would think, judging by everything I can see, he is more popular.
This is not a popularity contest.
The issue was PR, and whether Amaral or the McCanns are better at it. The McCanns have been much more prominent in the UK, but they have managed too many PR gaffes. They don't need Amaral to win. They simply need to stop losing.
Relating this to the thread topic, the McCanns are akin to playing a game of sport that will only ever be played under Portuguese rules, without understanding those rules, whilst Amaral does.
Nowt to do with the case. Everything to do with the damages trial.
The mccanns and duarte lodged an extremely dodgy writ which was bound to fail just on the pathetic elements of it..,i predicted it years ago it would fail and been proven right and fhey WILL be told to FO by the supreme court, no doubt about this, thry shoulud have stopped digging their hole long time ago
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on May 26, 2016, 12:33:49 AM
Also if MFLNSU was a charity it certainly would not have been allowed to have it's third object (since removed) which was to financially support the couple.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 26, 2016, 12:37:30 AM
Also if MFLNSU was a charity it certainly would not have been allowed to have it's third object (since removed) which was to financially support the couple.
Well thank ye gods of reason
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 26, 2016, 02:03:31 AM
9 years is actually more probably dead than alive, well it was fron year one according to experinced officials, everyone can hope though if it helps you feel better, reality suggests otherwise and lets not forget the cadaver dog
Anyone wanting the truth will not ignore the facts over fairy feelings
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 26, 2016, 08:04:58 AM
Mercury is correct, any child missing for so long must be presumed dead. there is nothing disgraceful about it.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on May 26, 2016, 08:09:51 AM
Mercury is correct, any child missing for so long must be presumed dead. there is nothing disgraceful about it.
here if a person goes missing and are never seen again they are declared legally dead after 7 years
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 26, 2016, 08:45:23 AM
Mark Harrison said it was appropriate to consider death;
This report has highlighted the extensive and professional efforts made by the Portuguese authorities regarding the search to locate Madeleine McCann alive. It has now begun to consider further opportunities to re search locations in order to address the possibility that she has been murdered and concealed nearby. This would be a proportionate and appropriate response given the elapsed time since her disappearance and previous experience in such similar cases. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 26, 2016, 09:11:09 AM
The only issue as I see it is: A date for a launch was fixed before any one had properly worked out the nuts and bolts. The driver became the pre announced date. Painted into a corner with the only way out to achieve the fanfared launch was to create a private limited company.
Any other offers ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 26, 2016, 10:13:04 AM
Mercury is correct, any child missing for so long must be presumed dead. there is nothing disgraceful about it.
It's an arrogant assumption (not necessarily wrong) but a strictly personal and private conclusion for most immediate loved-ones of the missing child to reach, in their time and in their way.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 26, 2016, 10:16:10 AM
It's an arrogant assumption (not necessarily wrong) but a strictly personal and private conclusion for most immediate loved-ones of the missing child to reach, in their time and in their way.
..and of course you have no bias in that comment.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: faithlilly on May 26, 2016, 12:31:34 PM
I take it that either you have failed to read Faithlilly's post ... or if you have, you disagree?
My post was written in regard to the huge court costs that the McCanns will be liable for if their appeal to the SC fails and the effect those costs will have if the couple need once again to fund their own search.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 26, 2016, 12:42:52 PM
My post was written in regard to the huge court costs that the McCanns will be liable for if their appeal to the SC fails and the effect those costs will have if the couple need once again to fund their own search.
The validity of the idea that the fund could pay the fees and expenses on the basis that the trial was about the search being impeded, one of the funds objectives, could potentially be called into question if the end result is in favour of Amaral as the court has already ruled the search was not impeded. One may not remove funds willy nilly from a limited company as some methods attract a tax liability....... &%+((£
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 26, 2016, 12:44:46 PM
It's an arrogant assumption (not necessarily wrong) but a strictly personal and private conclusion for most immediate loved-ones of the missing child to reach, in their time and in their way.
Don't get me wrong oh King of the libel, I have every sympathy for the parents of any missing child but given that even Redwood was looking for a body, the inevitable conclusion must be reached.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 26, 2016, 12:47:54 PM
My post was written in regard to the huge court costs that the McCanns will be liable for if their appeal to the SC fails and the effect those costs will have if the couple need once again to fund their own search.
I suspect that Portugal's highest court will do one of two things. They won't accept the appeal arguments to begin with or they will boot them into touch. I really don't think the McCanns have a cat in hells chance of overturning the Appeal Court judgement.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: faithlilly on May 26, 2016, 02:24:14 PM
The validity of the idea that the fund could pay the fees and expenses on the basis that the trial was about the search being impeded, one of the funds objectives, could potentially be called into question if the end result is in favour of Amaral as the court has already ruled the search was not impeded. One may not remove funds willy nilly from a limited company as some methods attract a tax liability....... &%+((£
Interesting times ahead methinks !
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 26, 2016, 02:28:16 PM
What I would like to know is how much these lawyers are pocketing on the back of a little missing girl?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on May 26, 2016, 03:03:20 PM
The validity of the idea that the fund could pay the fees and expenses on the basis that the trial was about the search being impeded, one of the funds objectives, could potentially be called into question if the end result is in favour of Amaral as the court has already ruled the search was not impeded. One may not remove funds willy nilly from a limited company as some methods attract a tax liability....... &%+((£
Called into question by who?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on May 26, 2016, 03:07:50 PM
The only issue as I see it is: A date for a launch was fixed before any one had properly worked out the nuts and bolts. The driver became the pre announced date. Painted into a corner with the only way out to achieve the fanfared launch was to create a private limited company.
Any other offers ?
Oh dear, but that doesn't allow for insinuations that the parents deliberately rejected the offer of charity status because they wanted to keep all the money for themselves to sue anyone that stood in their way does it?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 26, 2016, 03:36:58 PM
Oh dear, but that doesn't allow for insinuations that the parents deliberately rejected the offer of charity status because they wanted to keep all the money for themselves to sue anyone that stood in their way does it?
It appears from the cite that the Charity Commission were working with the McCann's representatives on revised wording to set it up as a charity and for reasons undisclosed decided to go ahead with a limited company.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 26, 2016, 04:54:17 PM
It appears from the cite that the Charity Commission were working with the McCann's representatives on revised wording to set it up as a charity and for reasons undisclosed decided to go ahead with a limited company.
Kate's book "Madeleine" p137-138
"BWB, the law firm drawing up the articles of association for the fighting fund, had talked to the Charity Commission about whether it would be eligible for charitable status. As its objectives were limited to the search for a single child and the beneficiaries were essentially one family, it was deemed that the 'public benefit' test would not be met. So the fund took the form of a not-for-profit, private limited company."
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 26, 2016, 04:57:12 PM
"BWB, the law firm drawing up the articles of association for the fighting fund, had talked to the Charity Commission about whether it would be eligible for charitable status. As its objectives were limited to the search for a single child and the beneficiaries were essentially one family, it was deemed that the 'public benefit' test would not be met. So the fund took the form of a not-for-profit, private limited company."
Trying to go for a charity status might be perceived as an attempt at avoiding tax.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 26, 2016, 04:59:57 PM
"BWB, the law firm drawing up the articles of association for the fighting fund, had talked to the Charity Commission about whether it would be eligible for charitable status. As its objectives were limited to the search for a single child and the beneficiaries were essentially one family, it was deemed that the 'public benefit' test would not be met. So the fund took the form of a not-for-profit, private limited company."
Has it ever been explained why it was termed a 'fighting fund' Who were they planning on fighting in those very early days?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 26, 2016, 05:04:49 PM
Oh dear, but that doesn't allow for insinuations that the parents deliberately rejected the offer of charity status because they wanted to keep all the money for themselves to sue anyone that stood in their way does it?
Was it supposed to?
I just thought I would provide links to the pukkah gen so folk were not arguing from the position of ignorance !
You do seem to have come up with your customary sneer rather than provide another "offer" as asked. Why do you think it panned out the way it did?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 26, 2016, 05:12:01 PM
The validity of the idea that the fund could pay the fees and expenses on the basis that the trial was about the search being impeded, one of the funds objectives, could potentially be called into question if the end result is in favour of Amaral as the court has already ruled the search was not impeded. One may not remove funds willy nilly from a limited company as some methods attract a tax liability....... &%+((£
Why?
The court did rule that any damage caused directly by him concerning the investigation / public opinion couldn't be determined / quantified.
However, a former (short-lived) coordinator is insisting on a theory, in which his understanding of the case frankly often doesn't even make sense, in which a missing little girl is necessarily dead and is therefore not worth searching for when the whole point of the Fund was to try to find her, or what happened to her, and bring whoever was responsible to justice.
Between his selective "memory", his "comprehension" problems of fairly basic issues such as DNA, his "coordination" from various bars, and his heavy-handed insinuations that every agency he could think of must be somehow involved in a massive coverup for two fairly ordinary doctors.... I really don't know quite what to say.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 26, 2016, 05:25:36 PM
Has it ever been explained why it was termed a 'fighting fund' Who were they planning on fighting in those very early days?
Brian Kennedy also gave an interview at the Rothley War Memorial on May 17, 2007. This time he was eager to tell us how to donate money to the “Fund” via two banks – the Nat West and the Royal Bank of Scotland. He also told us what the money would be used for:
The court did rule that any damage caused directly by him concerning the investigation / public opinion couldn't be determined / quantified.
However, a former (short-lived) coordinator is insisting on a theory, in which his understanding of the case frankly often doesn't even make sense, in which a missing little girl is necessarily dead and is therefore not worth searching for when the whole point of the Fund was to try to find her, or what happened to her, and bring whoever was responsible to justice.
Between his selective "memory", his "comprehension" problems of fairly basic issues such as DNA, his "coordination" from various bars, and his heavy-handed insinuations that every agency he could think of must be somehow involved in a massive coverup for two fairly ordinary doctors.... I really don't know quite what to say.
That is irrelevant. Did the court decide that Amarals book had or had not impeded the search for Madeleine McCann. That is all that is relevant in this instance.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 26, 2016, 05:42:06 PM
That is irrelevant. Did the court decide that Amarals book had or had not impeded the search for Madeleine McCann. That is all that is relevant in this instance.
11. Because of the statements made by defendant Gonçalo Amaral in the book, in the documentary and in the interview to Correio da Manhã, the Polícia Judiciária stopped collecting information and investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann?
Not proved.
22. The attention of the media and of people in general diminished when defendant Gonçalo Amaral’s book was published?
Not proved. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5931.0
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on May 26, 2016, 05:46:00 PM
That is irrelevant. Did the court decide that Amarals book had or had not impeded the search for Madeleine McCann. That is all that is relevant in this instance.
His sidekick Paiva popped up to say that the book hadn't harmed the investigation (hardly suprising) and there was no quantifiable evidence of a change of opinion as a result of his book, "documentary" and the one article presented.
Virtually all the half-mangled "incriminatory" PT leaks to the press happened under his watch.
It's not that difficult to make or sanction poisonous insinuations in the media, then "retire" to write a book and justify if by saying that it was all public knowledge anyway.
Yes, there are the files that can be consulted, but how many people can actually be bothered to double-check when he comes across on his matinée TV chat shows as if he actually knows what he's talking about?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 26, 2016, 05:46:16 PM
Brian Kennedy also gave an interview at the Rothley War Memorial on May 17, 2007. This time he was eager to tell us how to donate money to the “Fund” via two banks – the Nat West and the Royal Bank of Scotland. He also told us what the money would be used for:
I cannot get the site in the link to respond, so this is based purely on your post.
What legal expenditure (presuming this relates to actions in law, rather than expenditure that is not illegal) could BK have possibly had in mind on 17 May 2007?
PS. Who is the "us" that got told this?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on May 26, 2016, 05:54:14 PM
It appears from the cite that the Charity Commission were working with the McCann's representatives on revised wording to set it up as a charity and for reasons undisclosed decided to go ahead with a limited company.
Did the Charity Commission actually understand at the offset that the Fund was intended for the search for a single child?
There may have been some initial lost-in-confusion there.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 26, 2016, 05:55:58 PM
His sidekick Paiva popped up to say that the book hadn't harmed the investigation (hardly suprising) and there was no quantifiable evidence of a change of opinion as a result of his book, "documentary" and the one article presented.
Virtually all the half-mangled "incriminatory" PT leaks to the press happened under his watch.
It's not that difficult to make or sanction poisonous insinuations in the media, then "retire" to write a book and justify if by saying that it was all public knowledge anyway.
Yes, there are the files that can be consulted, but how many people can actually be bothered to double-check when he comes across on his matinée TV chat shows as if he actually knows what he's talking about?
Try looking at it from a different angle. Say for the sake of argument HMRC think that Leaving No Stone Unturned Limited has payed legal fees and expenses which in the opinion of the Revenue were not strictly to the company's benefit but to the personal benefit of two of the directors. Bearing in mind the action was not brought by Leaving No Stone Unturned Limited but by two of the directors. Next move ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 26, 2016, 06:18:39 PM
Try looking at it from a different angle. Say for the sake of argument HMRC think that Leaving No Stone Unturned Limited has payed legal fees and expenses which in the opinion of the Revenue were not strictly to the company's benefit but to the personal benefit of two of the directors. Bearing in mind the action was not brought by Leaving No Stone Unturned Limited but by two of the directors. Next move ?
Not sure I follow, Alice.
Aside from initial travel / subsidy expenses and 2 mortgage payments, I don't see how the McCanns have benefited financially from the Fund.
If you mean the cost of the action against Amaral & co., I'm not familiar enough with UK law concerning the options. The Fund was clearly set up to help find Madeleine, and Amaral's spoutings were deemed to have been hindering that. Whether it was two of the directors or the entire board leading the action, what difference would it make?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on May 26, 2016, 06:32:01 PM
Whichever way the McCanns turned, it seems to have caused confusion for someone 8(8-))
Evidently. You can't set up a charity for the benefit of a single person. It's possible that wires got crossed as there are families who set up memorial funds / charities in the name of their loved ones, normally once they know the outcome of their own situation, which clearly isn't the case in this instance.
I doubt that attempting to set up a charity for all British 3-year-olds missing while on holiday in Portugal in May 2007 would have worked either.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 26, 2016, 06:56:34 PM
Aside from initial travel / subsidy expenses and 2 mortgage payments, I don't see how the McCanns have benefited financially from the Fund.
If you mean the cost of the action against Amaral & co., I'm not familiar enough with UK law concerning the options. The Fund was clearly set up to help find Madeleine, and Amaral's spoutings were deemed to have been hindering that. Whether it was two of the directors or the entire board leading the action, what difference would it make?
This is hypothetical you understand because as of now we are not at the end of the road. Removing money from a limited company is governed by a set rules laid down by HMRC and Companies House. The issue they will look at is: Was the money used strictly in accordance with the companies objectives which do not include looking after the family. That is a matter of record in Articles of Association available from Companies House or was it used for the personal benefit of a director. In the case of the latter it may be considered as a taxable benefit or a directors loan both of which may attract tax liability. In the case of a taxable benefit the recipient is liable to tax on the value of the benefit at the higher rate, to pay employees NHI contribution as appropriate and the company will pay employers NHI contribution. It is complex but the bottom line is you cannot use money belonging to a limited company for personal advantage without attracting a tax liability. So again hypothetically Joe Bloggs takes 500 grand out of his companies account and the revenue later rules it was personal benefit. Joe Bloggs pays tax on the 500 grand and both he and the company pay NHI on it. The bill comes to about 270 grand due to the Revenue on or by the date they nominate. One thing you know about the Revenue is if they think they have a reasonable chance to collect they go for it.
In this issue Amaral is irrelevant whether he spouted* or not. What the court said is relevant.
I cannot get the site in the link to respond, so this is based purely on your post.
What legal expenditure (presuming this relates to actions in law, rather than expenditure that is not illegal) could BK have possibly had in mind on 17 May 2007?
PS. Who is the "us" that got told this?
Us the general public. 11th May; IFLG told us that we needed to set up a ‘fighting fund’.There had already been some speculation in the press, based on those erroneous reports that when Madeleine was taken we were dining ‘hundreds of metres away’, that we could face prosecution for negligence...... Kate McCann Madeleine.
By then they seem to have hired Control Risks and IFLG.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4jsLkwa7cc
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 26, 2016, 07:09:14 PM
In 2012 I published a report http://www.mccannfiles.com/id405.html about the background to the incorporation of the limited company Madeleine’s Fund: Leaving No Stone Unturned just 11 days after she went missing.
My report upset an unknown McCann supporter so much that he or she complained to my professional body, the ICEAW (Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales).
This happened in November 2012 but I only learned of it recently when by chance I came across a post which the person concerned had made on the Internet.
I was never contacted as the complaint did not meet the standards required by the ICEAW to warrant asking to hear my side of the story. The ICEAW reply to the complainant included the sentence:
‘Mrs O'Dowd is entitled to her opinions and views and freedom of speech’.
Exactly!
I imagine that this vexatious complaint caused some amusement at the ICEAW, and, on a more positive note, will have brought my report on the Fund to the attention of the staff at the ICEAW who may have discussed it with family and friends.
At the time I published the first report on the Fund, I did not understand why the situation warranted a limited company set up with such speed. I still don’t understand this four years later, having reviewed the subsequent audited accounts now available.
According to the book madeleine, charity experts BWB were hired on the advice of the paralegal. It is surprising that Kate did not let them have a day or two more to explore charity status. This slight delay would not have reduced the chances of finding Madeleine, alive or dead. And it is also surprising that the McCanns have apparently not revisited the charity status issue.
In Chapter 9 of madeleine Kate describes her activities on May 14; she does not mention any dealings with BWB, nor does she mention dealing with the paralegal or anyone else at IFLG. There must have been emails and phone calls that day from her advisors. She just states that charity status would not be forthcoming as it was deemed that the 'public benefit' test would not be met, and adds that it (the Fund) 'was set up with great care and due diligence by experts in their field.'
It would be more accurate to state it was set up with great haste and with no apparent reason for that haste.
Rather than describing the busy day she must have had dealing with her lawyers, and why she made the decision to proceed with incorporation and abandon the negotiations for charity status, she talks of going for a run, her first since Madeleine went missing.
She doesn’t mention the cost of getting a top legal firm to set up a limited company. The donations coming in were for finding Madeleine and not for lawyers. The legal pair would presumably have informed her of the ongoing compliance costs of operating a limited company such as the audit fee. The audit fees for the accounts from commencement to March 2014 total £50,085. The audit fee for the year ended 31 March 2015 is not known.
The Audited Accounts
When the first set of audited accounts for the period from 15 May 2007 to
31 March 2008 became available at Companies House, much information was provided but it raised many issues, one of which was that apparently only 13% of expenditure had gone on searching for Madeleine.
The Fund directors had two choices: to answer questions about the accounts both from the media and from members of the public, to put financial information on the official website, and to provide clearer accounts in future. or to ignore the questions and reduce the information provided in subsequent accounts, in the hope of reducing or eliminating questions, while adhering to statutory disclosure requirements.
They went for the latter option. Subsequent accounts provided much less information but still raised questions! The accounts for the most recent year available, the year ended 31 March 2015, provide even less information than in previous years which is why the my summary of accounting results 2007-2015 later in this article contains (?) in the 2015 column.
It is quite reasonable that an ordinary trading company would not reveal more information than legally required in its filed accounts because some information could be commercially sensitive and of use to a trade competitor. However, this argument would not apply to a company such as Madeleine's Fund where it would logically be to its advantage for the public to see where the money was going.
I contacted the company auditors who passed my questions on the accounts to Clarence Mitchell, their PR spokesman. I received the following response:
‘I have now been authorised to issue the following brief statement from Madeleine's Fund in response to your approach:
"Madeleine's Fund - Leaving No Stone Unturned Limited" fulfils all of its legal requirements through the filing and public declaration of all the information that is legally required of it. It exists to support the search for Madeleine and remains entirely dedicated to finding her through everything that it does, fully in line with its published objectives."
I appreciate that this does not directly address your specific questions but this is all that the Fund wishes, or needs, to state at present. I hope it is helpful nonetheless.
Kind regards,
Clarence’
Filing of the Fund’s Accounts
Good practice demands the filing of accounts as soon as practical after the accounting year end before the information becomes to some extent irrelevant. Prompt filing is necessary for genuine ‘transparency.’ Prompt filing costs nothing but even if it did, the commitment in madeleine promised transparency ‘despite the costs involved.’
All we can see from the 2015 accounts is that there was £763,772 in the bank at the year end, a figure similar to the cash at bank in the previous year and that there were creditors of £17,620 leaving the company net worth just under £750,000 as at 31 March 2015.
The Fund now
So, close to nine years after the Fund was incorporated, and given the commitment in madeleine to transparency, whatever it cost, we have -
· No financial information on the official website
AND · audited accounts which tell us, in effect, nothing
What is the reason for the reluctance to give financial information?
The website still requests donations from the public, one that is becoming increasingly suspicious of charities and not for profit organisations which request support yet do not provide clear information as to why they need money and what it is spent on.
The Fund’s raison d’être and its income and expenditures remain a mystery.
Enid O’Dowd FCA
www.enidodowd.com
1 February 2016
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 26, 2016, 07:17:14 PM
'From the outset everyone agreed that despite the costs involved, it (the Fund) must be run to the highest standards of transparency whatever it cost.'
Commitment given by Dr Kate McCann in her book madeleine (p. 138 Irish paperback edition)
That's a cracker. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 26, 2016, 07:19:03 PM
'From the outset everyone agreed that despite the costs involved, it (the Fund) must be run to the highest standards of transparency whatever it cost.'
Commitment given by Dr Kate McCann in her book madeleine (p. 138 Irish paperback edition)
That's a cracker. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
It's the way she tells 'em 8)--))
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 26, 2016, 07:44:58 PM
So steering things back on topic, since the "neglect" drum is being banged, I assume everyone accepts the McCanns did nothing, directly, nefarious to Madeleine, as Amaral accuses in his book.
So why did Amaral win his appeal?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 26, 2016, 07:52:05 PM
So steering things back on topic, since the "neglect" drum is being banged, I assume everyone accepts the McCanns did nothing, directly, nefarious to Madeleine, as Amaral accuses in his book.
So why did Amaral win his appeal?
None of us know anything for sure.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 26, 2016, 07:53:05 PM
I cannot get the site in the link to respond, so this is based purely on your post.
What legal expenditure (presuming this relates to actions in law, rather than expenditure that is not illegal) could BK have possibly had in mind on 17 May 2007?
PS. Who is the "us" that got told this?
Some of this ? ,totalling near 180k? If I've understood the question correctly.
Us the general public. 11th May; IFLG told us that we needed to set up a ‘fighting fund’.There had already been some speculation in the press, based on those erroneous reports that when Madeleine was taken we were dining ‘hundreds of metres away’, that we could face prosecution for negligence...... Kate McCann Madeleine.
By then they seem to have hired Control Risks and IFLG.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4jsLkwa7cc
Thank you.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 26, 2016, 07:58:41 PM
So steering things back on topic, since the "neglect" drum is being banged, I assume everyone accepts the McCanns did nothing, directly, nefarious to Madeleine, as Amaral accuses in his book.
So why did Amaral win his appeal?
I don't recall him accusng the Mccanns of directly and nefariously harming their child,lets have a cite then
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 26, 2016, 08:07:48 PM
Just as the parents of Madeleine McCann are reported to be taking their legal dispute with former PJ detective Gonçalo Amaral to Portugal’s Supreme Court, the Resident has learnt that millions of Brits have been reading the book at the heart of the fight by accessing it online.
Since “Maddie: The Truth of the Lie” was once again cleared for sale following a ruling by the Appeal Court in Lisbon last month (click here), over two million one hundred and thirty eight thousand people have visited the Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann forum - the site that carries a translation of the book into English.
Moderators say that following the ruling by three Lisbon judges that Amaral was within his right to self expression in publishing his thesis about what may have happened to Madeleine, visits to the site have been exceeding 200,000 - 300,000 a day.
In all, over 11 million people have viewed “Maddie: The Truth of the Lie” - while the forum claims its global number of visits now stand at over 81 million.
What all this means in terms of a legal fight that is concentrated on outlawing the book is unclear.
It is not banned in any country of the world, and even though the McCanns are apparently intent on suing any publisher who takes it on for the UK market (click here), it appears to have been read by well over 11 million English-speakers.
This news comes in a week when the British press has suddenly opened the floodgates to celebrity criticism of the McCann parents.
Sharon Osbourne, the outspoken media personality and wife of heavy-metal singer-songwriter Ozzy Osbourne, labelled the couple “insane” to have left their children unattended while on the fateful family holiday to Praia da Luz nine years ago, while former model Katie Price, speaking on the Loose Women chat show, backed her comments saying the couple shouldn’t have gone on holiday if they weren’t prepared to take their children out with them.
Osbourne’s remarks were labelled “ill informed” and “ignorant” by a friend of the McCanns, but the retort got nothing like the same kind of media coverage.
Meantime, blogs in Portugal following the McCanns legal fight have stressed that the couple’s appeal to the Supreme Court is by no means a ‘done deal’.
The “next step” will be to find out if the court accepts it. This decision is unlikely to be taken before the end of June, reports Textusa (one of the blogs most active for what it calls “the right to exercise the duty of being a citizen), with “expected notification around a week later”.
“If there are no technical mistakes” - Textusa explains that the appeal has to follow certain rules - Amaral will then have his own time-scale to submit counter-arguments, all of which will take the case well past the judicial holidays in August.
“We don’t see a decision from the Supreme Justice Court on this case before Christmas, and even then we’re being optimistic”, says the blog that writes all its posts in English.
Also writing in English for the benefit of non-Portuguese visitors, the Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral blogsite has revealed that contributions raised largely from Brits last year (click here) will cover Amaral’s latest call to defend what he maintains is an issue of the right to freedom of expression.
Says the blog: We remain confident, as always, that Justice will be served and Freedom of Speech, of Opinion and of Information will prevail.
natasha.donn@algarveresident.com
- See more at: http://portugalresident.com/millions-of-brits-are-reading-%E2%80%9Cmaddie-the-truth-of-the-lie%E2%80%9D-online#sthash.QzwpYazv.dpuf
------------------------------------
8((()*/ 8)--)) 8)--)) 8)--))
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 26, 2016, 09:26:32 PM
Just as the parents of Madeleine McCann are reported to be taking their legal dispute with former PJ detective Gonçalo Amaral to Portugal’s Supreme Court, the Resident has learnt that millions of Brits have been reading the book at the heart of the fight by accessing it online.
Since “Maddie: The Truth of the Lie” was once again cleared for sale following a ruling by the Appeal Court in Lisbon last month (click here), over two million one hundred and thirty eight thousand people have visited the Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann forum - the site that carries a translation of the book into English.
Moderators say that following the ruling by three Lisbon judges that Amaral was within his right to self expression in publishing his thesis about what may have happened to Madeleine, visits to the site have been exceeding 200,000 - 300,000 a day.
In all, over 11 million people have viewed “Maddie: The Truth of the Lie” - while the forum claims its global number of visits now stand at over 81 million.
What all this means in terms of a legal fight that is concentrated on outlawing the book is unclear.
It is not banned in any country of the world, and even though the McCanns are apparently intent on suing any publisher who takes it on for the UK market (click here), it appears to have been read by well over 11 million English-speakers.
This news comes in a week when the British press has suddenly opened the floodgates to celebrity criticism of the McCann parents.
Sharon Osbourne, the outspoken media personality and wife of heavy-metal singer-songwriter Ozzy Osbourne, labelled the couple “insane” to have left their children unattended while on the fateful family holiday to Praia da Luz nine years ago, while former model Katie Price, speaking on the Loose Women chat show, backed her comments saying the couple shouldn’t have gone on holiday if they weren’t prepared to take their children out with them.
Osbourne’s remarks were labelled “ill informed” and “ignorant” by a friend of the McCanns, but the retort got nothing like the same kind of media coverage.
Meantime, blogs in Portugal following the McCanns legal fight have stressed that the couple’s appeal to the Supreme Court is by no means a ‘done deal’.
The “next step” will be to find out if the court accepts it. This decision is unlikely to be taken before the end of June, reports Textusa (one of the blogs most active for what it calls “the right to exercise the duty of being a citizen), with “expected notification around a week later”.
“If there are no technical mistakes” - Textusa explains that the appeal has to follow certain rules - Amaral will then have his own time-scale to submit counter-arguments, all of which will take the case well past the judicial holidays in August.
“We don’t see a decision from the Supreme Justice Court on this case before Christmas, and even then we’re being optimistic”, says the blog that writes all its posts in English.
Also writing in English for the benefit of non-Portuguese visitors, the Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral blogsite has revealed that contributions raised largely from Brits last year (click here) will cover Amaral’s latest call to defend what he maintains is an issue of the right to freedom of expression.
Says the blog: We remain confident, as always, that Justice will be served and Freedom of Speech, of Opinion and of Information will prevail.
natasha.donn@algarveresident.com
- See more at: http://portugalresident.com/millions-of-brits-are-reading-%E2%80%9Cmaddie-the-truth-of-the-lie%E2%80%9D-online#sthash.QzwpYazv.dpuf
------------------------------------
8((()*/ 8)--)) 8)--)) 8)--))
“We don’t see a decision from the Supreme Justice Court on this case before Christmas, and even then we’re being optimistic”
8(8-))
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 26, 2016, 09:37:20 PM
“We don’t see a decision from the Supreme Justice Court on this case before Christmas, and even then we’re being optimistic”
8(8-))
Jarndyce v Jarndyce............. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 26, 2016, 09:45:38 PM
Thanks stephen So what ths means is that the mccanns spent thousands of pounds out of the find madelene fund to ban a book whch has ended up being read by far more peple than will have bought it if it had been left alone, what an own goal, yet again
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 26, 2016, 09:47:42 PM
Thanks stephen So what ths means is that the mccanns spent thousands of pounds out of the find madelene fund to ban a book whch has ended up behg read by far more peple than will have bought it if it had been keft alone, what an own goal, yet again
No wonder they are seething @)(++(*
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 26, 2016, 09:50:56 PM
Thanks stephen So what ths means is that the mccanns spent thousands of pounds out of the find madelene fund to ban a book whch has ended up being read by far more peple than will have bought it if it had been left alone, what an own goal, yet again
What was it Colonel John "Hannibal" Smith used to say ? I.L.I.W.A.P.C.T. Not in this instance seemingly.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 26, 2016, 10:06:25 PM
Just as the parents of Madeleine McCann are reported to be taking their legal dispute with former PJ detective Gonçalo Amaral to Portugal’s Supreme Court, the Resident has learnt that millions of Brits have been reading the book at the heart of the fight by accessing it online.
Since “Maddie: The Truth of the Lie” was once again cleared for sale following a ruling by the Appeal Court in Lisbon last month (click here), over two million one hundred and thirty eight thousand people have visited the Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann forum - the site that carries a translation of the book into English.
Moderators say that following the ruling by three Lisbon judges that Amaral was within his right to self expression in publishing his thesis about what may have happened to Madeleine, visits to the site have been exceeding 200,000 - 300,000 a day.
In all, over 11 million people have viewed “Maddie: The Truth of the Lie” - while the forum claims its global number of visits now stand at over 81 million.
What all this means in terms of a legal fight that is concentrated on outlawing the book is unclear.
It is not banned in any country of the world, and even though the McCanns are apparently intent on suing any publisher who takes it on for the UK market (click here), it appears to have been read by well over 11 million English-speakers.
This news comes in a week when the British press has suddenly opened the floodgates to celebrity criticism of the McCann parents.
Sharon Osbourne, the outspoken media personality and wife of heavy-metal singer-songwriter Ozzy Osbourne, labelled the couple “insane” to have left their children unattended while on the fateful family holiday to Praia da Luz nine years ago, while former model Katie Price, speaking on the Loose Women chat show, backed her comments saying the couple shouldn’t have gone on holiday if they weren’t prepared to take their children out with them.
Osbourne’s remarks were labelled “ill informed” and “ignorant” by a friend of the McCanns, but the retort got nothing like the same kind of media coverage.
Meantime, blogs in Portugal following the McCanns legal fight have stressed that the couple’s appeal to the Supreme Court is by no means a ‘done deal’.
The “next step” will be to find out if the court accepts it. This decision is unlikely to be taken before the end of June, reports Textusa (one of the blogs most active for what it calls “the right to exercise the duty of being a citizen), with “expected notification around a week later”.
“If there are no technical mistakes” - Textusa explains that the appeal has to follow certain rules - Amaral will then have his own time-scale to submit counter-arguments, all of which will take the case well past the judicial holidays in August.
“We don’t see a decision from the Supreme Justice Court on this case before Christmas, and even then we’re being optimistic”, says the blog that writes all its posts in English.
Also writing in English for the benefit of non-Portuguese visitors, the Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral blogsite has revealed that contributions raised largely from Brits last year (click here) will cover Amaral’s latest call to defend what he maintains is an issue of the right to freedom of expression.
Says the blog: We remain confident, as always, that Justice will be served and Freedom of Speech, of Opinion and of Information will prevail.
natasha.donn@algarveresident.com
- See more at: http://portugalresident.com/millions-of-brits-are-reading-%E2%80%9Cmaddie-the-truth-of-the-lie%E2%80%9D-online#sthash.QzwpYazv.dpuf
@)(++(* Don't know if you have noticed or not ... no-one is actually filling the coffers with Euros @)(++(*
... over two million one hundred and thirty eight thousand people have visited the Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann forum - the site that carries a translation of the book into English - and related blogs.
Moderators say that following the ruling by three Lisbon judges that Amaral was within his right to self expression in publishing his thesis about what may have happened to Madeleine, visits to the three sites have been exceeding 200,000 - 300,000 a day.
In all, over 11 million people have viewed “Maddie: The Truth of the Lie” - while the global number of visits now stand at over 81 million. http://portugalresident.com/millions-of-brits-are-reading-%E2%80%9Cmaddie-the-truth-of-the-lie%E2%80%9D-online#sthash.sJvcjK4E.dpuf
In the tradition of FREE speech ... everyone seems to be reading it for free %£&)**# Oh dear, what a pity, oh well never mind. All that lovely money ... but not to worry ... Mr Amaral's message is being relayed to the masses, his publishers must be ecstatic and after going to the bother of a nice new cover too. Well Judge Maria Emilia de Melo e Castro did point out rather obvious defects in the original.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 26, 2016, 10:24:09 PM
But its not about money just truth sic mccanns The cover reminds one that the eye defect was made a big deal of at the time, but then denied by kte mccann, oops
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 26, 2016, 10:32:42 PM
@)(++(* Don't know if you have noticed or not ... no-one is actually filling the coffers with Euros @)(++(*
... over two million one hundred and thirty eight thousand people have visited the Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann forum - the site that carries a translation of the book into English - and related blogs.
Moderators say that following the ruling by three Lisbon judges that Amaral was within his right to self expression in publishing his thesis about what may have happened to Madeleine, visits to the three sites have been exceeding 200,000 - 300,000 a day.
In all, over 11 million people have viewed “Maddie: The Truth of the Lie” - while the global number of visits now stand at over 81 million. http://portugalresident.com/millions-of-brits-are-reading-%E2%80%9Cmaddie-the-truth-of-the-lie%E2%80%9D-online#sthash.sJvcjK4E.dpuf
In the tradition of FREE speech ... everyone seems to be reading it for free %£&)**# Oh dear, what a pity, oh well never mind. All that lovely money ... but not to worry ... Mr Amaral's message is being relayed to the masses, his publishers must be ecstatic and after going to the bother of a nice new cover too. Well Judge Maria Emilia de Melo e Castro did point out rather obvious defects in the original.
I don't suppose he gives a rat's wotsit. He has enough dosh to fund the latest round of the legal hooha and the message about his thesis is getting out there in spades. I would call that a result.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on May 26, 2016, 10:38:26 PM
Just as the parents of Madeleine McCann are reported to be taking their legal dispute with former PJ detective Gonçalo Amaral to Portugal’s Supreme Court, the Resident has learnt that millions of Brits have been reading the book at the heart of the fight by accessing it online.
Since “Maddie: The Truth of the Lie” was once again cleared for sale following a ruling by the Appeal Court in Lisbon last month (click here), over two million one hundred and thirty eight thousand people have visited the Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann forum - the site that carries a translation of the book into English.
Moderators say that following the ruling by three Lisbon judges that Amaral was within his right to self expression in publishing his thesis about what may have happened to Madeleine, visits to the site have been exceeding 200,000 - 300,000 a day.
In all, over 11 million people have viewed “Maddie: The Truth of the Lie” - while the forum claims its global number of visits now stand at over 81 million.
What all this means in terms of a legal fight that is concentrated on outlawing the book is unclear.
It is not banned in any country of the world, and even though the McCanns are apparently intent on suing any publisher who takes it on for the UK market (click here), it appears to have been read by well over 11 million English-speakers.
This news comes in a week when the British press has suddenly opened the floodgates to celebrity criticism of the McCann parents.
Sharon Osbourne, the outspoken media personality and wife of heavy-metal singer-songwriter Ozzy Osbourne, labelled the couple “insane” to have left their children unattended while on the fateful family holiday to Praia da Luz nine years ago, while former model Katie Price, speaking on the Loose Women chat show, backed her comments saying the couple shouldn’t have gone on holiday if they weren’t prepared to take their children out with them.
Osbourne’s remarks were labelled “ill informed” and “ignorant” by a friend of the McCanns, but the retort got nothing like the same kind of media coverage.
Meantime, blogs in Portugal following the McCanns legal fight have stressed that the couple’s appeal to the Supreme Court is by no means a ‘done deal’.
The “next step” will be to find out if the court accepts it. This decision is unlikely to be taken before the end of June, reports Textusa (one of the blogs most active for what it calls “the right to exercise the duty of being a citizen), with “expected notification around a week later”.
“If there are no technical mistakes” - Textusa explains that the appeal has to follow certain rules - Amaral will then have his own time-scale to submit counter-arguments, all of which will take the case well past the judicial holidays in August.
“We don’t see a decision from the Supreme Justice Court on this case before Christmas, and even then we’re being optimistic”, says the blog that writes all its posts in English.
Also writing in English for the benefit of non-Portuguese visitors, the Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral blogsite has revealed that contributions raised largely from Brits last year (click here) will cover Amaral’s latest call to defend what he maintains is an issue of the right to freedom of expression.
Says the blog: We remain confident, as always, that Justice will be served and Freedom of Speech, of Opinion and of Information will prevail.
natasha.donn@algarveresident.com
- See more at: http://portugalresident.com/millions-of-brits-are-reading-%E2%80%9Cmaddie-the-truth-of-the-lie%E2%80%9D-online#sthash.QzwpYazv.dpuf
------------------------------------
8((()*/ 8)--)) 8)--)) 8)--))
Poor Amaral, all those potential earnings lost, what with all those millions reading his wonderful tome for free, he must be livid.
Anyone know how many copies of his book have sold since it went back on sale in the shops? Is it number one of the Portuguese bestsellers lists?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 26, 2016, 10:40:41 PM
@)(++(* Don't know if you have noticed or not ... no-one is actually filling the coffers with Euros @)(++(*
... over two million one hundred and thirty eight thousand people have visited the Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann forum - the site that carries a translation of the book into English - and related blogs.
Moderators say that following the ruling by three Lisbon judges that Amaral was within his right to self expression in publishing his thesis about what may have happened to Madeleine, visits to the three sites have been exceeding 200,000 - 300,000 a day.
In all, over 11 million people have viewed “Maddie: The Truth of the Lie” - while the global number of visits now stand at over 81 million. http://portugalresident.com/millions-of-brits-are-reading-%E2%80%9Cmaddie-the-truth-of-the-lie%E2%80%9D-online#sthash.sJvcjK4E.dpuf
In the tradition of FREE speech ... everyone seems to be reading it for free %£&)**# Oh dear, what a pity, oh well never mind. All that lovely money ... but not to worry ... Mr Amaral's message is being relayed to the masses, his publishers must be ecstatic and after going to the bother of a nice new cover too. Well Judge Maria Emilia de Melo e Castro did point out rather obvious defects in the original.
Is that your best response ?
1/10 for effort.
Perhaps you could assist Heriberto. *&*%£
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on May 26, 2016, 10:40:59 PM
I don't suppose he gives a rat's wotsit. He has enough dosh to fund the latest round of the legal hooha and the message about his thesis is getting out there in spades. I would call that a result.
He didn't seem that pleased about his book being available for free on the internet in some of his recent interviews.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 26, 2016, 10:41:49 PM
I don't suppose he gives a rat's wotsit. He has enough dosh to fund the latest round of the legal hooha and the message about his thesis is getting out there in spades. I would call that a result.
If some negligent couple inches away from prosecution freezed my assets for years cursed me to be miserable and live in fear cos I did my job and got the whole uk media to smear me every day and sued me go keep my mouth shut hell yes id be happy too
Good for him
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 26, 2016, 10:44:15 PM
He didn't seem that pleased about his book being available for free on the internet in some of his recent interviews.
I wouldn't know I didn't watch them. Maybe with both camps it really was all about the money and bu**ar all else.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pegasus on May 26, 2016, 10:45:20 PM
Is that the real proposed book cover? If so the background image of UK government buildings presumably alludes to GM in 2007 being supported by and having phone discussions with two UK prime ministers and two UK foreign secretaries. Apparently one phonecall lasted more than an hour.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on May 26, 2016, 10:46:16 PM
Is that the real proposed book cover? If so the background image of UK government buildings presumably alludes to GM in 2007 being supported by and having phone discussions with two UK prime ministers and two UK foreign secretaries.
Perhaps the publishers thought it might appeal to a British audience in British stores.
What a pity it would have been in the remaindered bin ... everybody who is anybody having read it for free already ... it would need another big campaign ~ maybe four or five purchases per 'questioner', don't know if it is worth it though for the pittance due to Mr Amaral anyway. The book does belong to the publishers after all so it is really them being robbed blind.
For a variety of reasons, I doubt very much if it will hit the shelves in Britain 8)><(
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 26, 2016, 11:01:19 PM
Perhaps the publishers thought it might appeal to a British audience in British stores.
What a pity it would have been in the remaindered bin ... everybody who is anybody having read it for free already ... it would need another big campaign ~ maybe four or five purchases per 'questioner', don't know if it is worth it though for the pittance due to Mr Amaral anyway. The book does belong to the publishers after all so it is really them being robbed blind.
For a variety of reasons, I doubt very much if it will hit the shelves in Britain 8)><(
It is already here.
You really are slow on the uptake.
It is worldwide. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on May 26, 2016, 11:09:35 PM
cyeah, who needs Waterstones when you can get Amaral's book for free on the internet!
Free, gratis and for nothing Alfie. Even the great unwashed without a penny to bless themselves with can read it. Ain't the Internet a wonderful invention ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on May 26, 2016, 11:47:06 PM
Free, gratis and for nothing Alfie. Even the great unwashed without a penny to bless themselves with can read it. Ain't the Internet a wonderful invention ?
I'm sure authors who rely on sales of their books for their livings are less chuffed than you appear to be when their work is given away for free on the net without their permission.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on May 26, 2016, 11:49:03 PM
If Amaral all is so unbothered about his book being available for the entire world to read for free on the internet why was he so keen to see it back in the "oh so last year" bookshops?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: faithlilly on May 27, 2016, 12:05:23 AM
If Amaral all is so unbothered about his book being available for the entire world to read for free on the internet why was he so keen to see it back in the "oh so last year" bookshops?
Was he ? It has never struck me that Amaral's primary reason for writing his book was to make money but then perhaps you know him better than me.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 27, 2016, 12:15:15 AM
If Amaral all is so unbothered about his book being available for the entire world to read for free on the internet why was he so keen to see it back in the "oh so last year" bookshops?
It doesnt matter much as hes won his case and the mccanns are on a hiding to nowhere
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2016, 08:31:21 AM
It would be interesting to know what the McCann's appeal is based on. Their lawyer commented on the Appeal decision that it;
was an appreciation of the law and not the facts.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3547951/Portuguese-detective-WINS-appeal-against-libel-defeat-Madeleine-McCann-s-parents-NOT-pay-500-000-damages.html#ixzz49pyL6vFJ Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
As the Supreme Court rules (afaik) only on points of law, I don't understand why Duarte mentioned facts as they won't be looked at.
The Supreme Court only rules regarding the interpretation of law and does not examine the facts established by the lower courts. http://www.iclg.co.uk/practice-areas/litigation-and-dispute-resolution/litigation-and-dispute-resolution-2016/portugal
The laws used by the judge in the lower court both related to the duties imposed on a retired police officer. She ruled that he was obliged to uphold the presumption of innocence and to observe judicial secrecy.
Only those two legal points will be considered by the Supreme Court as far as I can see, unless new legal arguments can be introduced by the lawyers.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 27, 2016, 08:37:25 AM
It would be interesting to know what the McCann's appeal is based on. Their lawyer commented on the Appeal decision that it;
was an appreciation of the law and not the facts.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3547951/Portuguese-detective-WINS-appeal-against-libel-defeat-Madeleine-McCann-s-parents-NOT-pay-500-000-damages.html#ixzz49pyL6vFJ Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
As the Supreme Court rules (afaik) only on points of law, I don't understand why Duarte mentioned facts as they won't be looked at.
The Supreme Court only rules regarding the interpretation of law and does not examine the facts established by the lower courts. http://www.iclg.co.uk/practice-areas/litigation-and-dispute-resolution/litigation-and-dispute-resolution-2016/portugal
The laws used by the judge in the lower court both related to the duties imposed on a retired police officer. She ruled that he was obliged to uphold the presumption of innocence and to observe judicial secrecy.
Only those two legal points will be considered by the Supreme Court as far as I can see, unless new legal arguments can be introduced by the lawyers.
Perhaps Duarte is more than aware of that, but mainly due to the mccanns stubbornness, and/or the fact, that to go to the ECHR, they have to pursue all other legal options first.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2016, 09:26:04 AM
Perhaps Duarte is more than aware of that, but mainly due to the mccanns stubbornness, and/or the fact, that to go to the ECHR, they have to pursue all other legal options first.
Lawyers, of course, don't just accept their client's instructions, they also advise them. She may truly believe there's a chance they will win in the Supreme Court and she understands Portuguese law better than I do, but it's difficult to understand what grounds she sees for appealing.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 27, 2016, 09:37:33 AM
Lawyers, of course, don't just accept their client's instructions, they also advise them. She may truly believe there's a chance they will win in the Supreme Court and she understands Portuguese law better than I do, but it's difficult to understand what grounds she sees for appealing.
I understand that.
Duarte was clearly not expecting the award made to the mccanns in the first place.
Obviously , she will still have to be paid, regardless of the outcome..
I also agree that I can see no clear grounds to appeal, other than for it being necessary in order to go to the ECHR.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2016, 10:53:41 AM
It would be interesting to know what the McCann's appeal is based on. Their lawyer commented on the Appeal decision that it;
was an appreciation of the law and not the facts.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3547951/Portuguese-detective-WINS-appeal-against-libel-defeat-Madeleine-McCann-s-parents-NOT-pay-500-000-damages.html#ixzz49pyL6vFJ Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
As the Supreme Court rules (afaik) only on points of law, I don't understand why Duarte mentioned facts as they won't be looked at.
The Supreme Court only rules regarding the interpretation of law and does not examine the facts established by the lower courts. http://www.iclg.co.uk/practice-areas/litigation-and-dispute-resolution/litigation-and-dispute-resolution-2016/portugal
The laws used by the judge in the lower court both related to the duties imposed on a retired police officer. She ruled that he was obliged to uphold the presumption of innocence and to observe judicial secrecy.
Only those two legal points will be considered by the Supreme Court as far as I can see, unless new legal arguments can be introduced by the lawyers.
The (appeal court) ruling doesn't seem to dispute that Amaral breached judicial secrecy in preparing material for his book.
It rather argues that because he quit the PJ before he wrote it, he can't be held accountable (for breaching judicial secrecy) thus restoring this perverse principle to s/he who is willing, no harm can come, a libel-free zone, in which anything goes.
If any of the (numerous) leaks from the enquiry while the enquiry was running can be pinned, personally and directly, on Amaral, then (I reckon) Amaral will, once more, be toast.
(In my opinion) Gerry not Madeleine's father is a prime candidate.
There might be others.
We'll see.
One thing Portuguese libel-law is sorely in need of reviewing is this perverse provision that contrasting accounts of one event can somehow cancel out the right (of the victim) to compensation for traducement of reputation (what Amaral's book does).
ETA: Even if they can't be pinned, directly, on Amaral, if there is, in Portuguese law, a concept of accountability, then Amaral can be held accountable for the leaks (as the person in charge).
Should make the same difference.
Annulment of this to s/he who is willing, no harm can come maxim and restoration of the proper rules of libel, which would assuredly see Amaral fully accountable for his lies and traducement.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2016, 11:26:26 AM
The (appeal court) ruling doesn't seem to dispute that Amaral breached judicial secrecy in preparing material for his book.
It rather argues that because he quit the PJ before he wrote it, he can't be held accountable (for breaching judicial secrecy) thus restoring this perverse principle to s/he who is willing, no harm can come, a libel-free zone, in which anything goes.
If any of the (numerous) leaks from the enquiry while the enquiry was running can be pinned, personally and directly, on Amaral, then (I reckon) Amaral will, once more, be toast.
(In my opinion) Gerry not Madeleine's father is a prime candidate.
There might be others.
We'll see.
One thing Portuguese libel-law is sorely in need of reviewing is this perverse provision that contrasting accounts of one event can somehow cancel out the right (of the victim) to compensation for traducement of reputation (what Amaral's book does).
ETA: Even if they can't be pinned, directly, on Amaral, if there is, in Portuguese law, a concept of accountability, then Amaral can be held accountable for the leaks (as the person in charge).
Should make the same difference.
Annulment of this to s/he who is willing, no harm can come maxim and restoration of the proper rules of libel, which would assuredly see Amaral fully accountable for his lies and traducement.
Most of what you have written is irrelevant to the Supreme Court appeal. It will only consider points of law.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2016, 11:56:07 AM
The (appeal court) ruling doesn't seem to dispute that Amaral breached judicial secrecy in preparing material for his book.
It rather argues that because he quit the PJ before he wrote it, he can't be held accountable (for breaching judicial secrecy) thus restoring this perverse principle to s/he who is willing, no harm can come, a libel-free zone, in which anything goes.
If any of the (numerous) leaks from the enquiry while the enquiry was running can be pinned, personally and directly, on Amaral, then (I reckon) Amaral will, once more, be toast.
(In my opinion) Gerry not Madeleine's father is a prime candidate.
There might be others.
We'll see.
One thing Portuguese libel-law is sorely in need of reviewing is this perverse provision that contrasting accounts of one event can somehow cancel out the right (of the victim) to compensation for traducement of reputation (what Amaral's book does).
ETA: Even if they can't be pinned, directly, on Amaral, if there is, in Portuguese law, a concept of accountability, then Amaral can be held accountable for the leaks (as the person in charge).
Should make the same difference.
Annulment of this to s/he who is willing, no harm can come maxim and restoration of the proper rules of libel, which would assuredly see Amaral fully accountable for his lies and traducement.
That principle you have found is a common law principle used in the UK and other associated countries. Portugal uses civil law, which is different.
Therefore it has no bearing on the ruling of the Appeal Court.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2016, 01:35:19 PM
Was he ? It has never struck me that Amaral's primary reason for writing his book was to make money but then perhaps you know him better than me.
If he doesn't have a problem with his book being available for free on the internet why did he make the comment in a recent interview that all such online versions were illegal? A strange choice of word for someone who is quite relaxed about his intellectual (sic) copyright being abused in such a manner.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2016, 03:09:39 PM
Civil law is very much part of the embodiment of English law.
I don't think you fully understand the terms. There's a good explanation if you follow the link;
Most nations today follow one of two major legal traditions: common law or civil law. The common law tradition emerged in England during the Middle Ages and was applied within British colonies across continents. The civil law tradition developed in continental Europe at the same time and was applied in the colonies of European imperial powers such as Spain and Portugal. https://www.law.berkeley.edu/library/robbins/CommonLawCivilLawTraditions.html
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 27, 2016, 03:24:39 PM
If he doesn't have a problem with his book being available for free on the internet why did he make the comment in a recent interview that all such online versions were illegal? A strange choice of word for someone who is quite relaxed about his intellectual (sic) copyright being abused in such a manner.
I would think it might be to do with legal defence. If people are reading an unauthorised, illegal translation, then he cannot be held responsible for the book's contents.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 27, 2016, 03:28:25 PM
Civil law is very much part of the embodiment of English law.
English Law is based on common law, where precedent prevails. Where the common law is patently unfair then equitable (i.e. codified) remedies are introduced.
Most European countries are based on roman or civil law, which is codified. Precedent does not apply, so there is no obligation on a court to follow the decision of any other court.
In very simplistic terms, one can say that in the UK everything is permitted except that which is expressly forbidden.
In Europe, everything is forbidden except that which is expressly permitted.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on May 27, 2016, 05:05:03 PM
I would think it might be to do with legal defence. If people are reading an unauthorised, illegal translation, then he cannot be held responsible for the book's contents.
So there's another reason to be not very happy - not only is your book (normal selling price a snip at £17.75 http://www.portuguesebookshop.co.uk/portuguesebooks/9789898174123 ) freely available for all to read on the net, but it's also been possibly mistranslated and so not an accurate reflection of his magnum oopus (sic).
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 27, 2016, 05:51:23 PM
In another thread Ferryman posted "... Of the course the book harmed the search for Madeleine by stating, categorically, that Madeleine is dead and telling people (who read it) the McCanns knew she was dead. ... "
I asked for info about the 'categorically'.
Ferryman was kind enough to direct me to the final chapter of TOTL, which I have now re-read, so here is my response.
The final chapter, chapter 23, at least in English, would probably fall foul of current moderation re libel, as applied in this forum.
His view on Jane Tanner's statement is sailing close to the wind. "Jane Tanner's witness statement in favour of the theory of abduction is probably false: little by little it has lost all credibility because of successive modifications introduced by Jane, modifications that have ended up invalidating it." On balance, I think it would scrape through on a combo of 'probably', plus the supporting evidence.
His cherry picking re dogs and lab evidence would probably get flushed, so I will not quote it. Suffice to say he is mistakenly depicting the dogs and does not cover final lab evidence.
I'm not aware of what the actual position was when Amaral was taken off the case. Is this an 'accurate' reflection of what was known in the investigation at the time, or is it not only inaccurate but also was known to be inaccurate at the time?
Possibly the crunchiest bit starts "The conclusions my team and I have arrived at are the following:"
Without going into detail, a summary involves Madeleine dying (probably by accident) and the McCanns being involved in concealment of the body.
This happens to be a theorem. It happens to be a theorem that appears to have some public support. It happens to be one of several theories that have some public support.
So for me, the test is simple. Did Gonçalo and team arrive at such conclusions? Not, are the conclusions accurate or inaccurate. Not do they stand up to scrutiny with 2016 knowledge. Not even did they stack up at the time Mr Amaral was removed. Just does it accurately reflect the thinking of Amaral et al whenever he got hoiked in 2007?
I do not know, under Portuguese or English defamations laws, how long you can keep repeating a 2007 view without making clear it reflects a 2007 position.
I think Mr Amaral would need a minor revision of chapter 23 to get it through current libel laws, and to get it past moderation on this forum. However, I don't think the original book has any mileage left in it as a commercial product, so I think it will drift into the history of 2008.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 27, 2016, 06:32:27 PM
So there's another reason to be not very happy - not only is your book (normal selling price a snip at £17.75 http://www.portuguesebookshop.co.uk/portuguesebooks/9789898174123 ) freely available for all to read on the net, but it's also been possibly mistranslated and so not an accurate reflection of his magnum oopus (sic).
That's his problem, not mine.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on May 27, 2016, 06:34:09 PM
In another thread Ferryman posted "... Of the course the book harmed the search for Madeleine by stating, categorically, that Madeleine is dead and telling people (who read it) the McCanns knew she was dead. ... "
I asked for info about the 'categorically'.
Ferryman was kind enough to direct me to the final chapter of TOTL, which I have now re-read, so here is my response.
The final chapter, chapter 23, at least in English, would probably fall foul of current moderation re libel, as applied in this forum.
His view on Jane Tanner's statement is sailing close to the wind. "Jane Tanner's witness statement in favour of the theory of abduction is probably false: little by little it has lost all credibility because of successive modifications introduced by Jane, modifications that have ended up invalidating it." On balance, I think it would scrape through on a combo of 'probably', plus the supporting evidence.
His cherry picking re dogs and lab evidence would probably get flushed, so I will not quote it. Suffice to say he is mistakenly depicting the dogs and does not cover final lab evidence.
I'm not aware of what the actual position was when Amaral was taken off the case. Is this an 'accurate' reflection of what was known in the investigation at the time, or is it not only inaccurate but also was known to be inaccurate at the time?
Possibly the crunchiest bit starts "The conclusions my team and I have arrived at are the following:"
Without going into detail, a summary involves Madeleine dying (probably by accident) and the McCanns being involved in concealment of the body.
This happens to be a theorem. It happens to be a theorem that appears to have some public support. It happens to be one of several theories that have some public support.
So for me, the test is simple. Did Gonçalo and team arrive at such conclusions? Not, are the conclusions accurate or inaccurate. Not do they stand up to scrutiny with 2016 knowledge. Not even did they stack up at the time Mr Amaral was removed. Just does it accurately reflect the thinking of Amaral et al whenever he got hoiked in 2007?
I do not know, under Portuguese or English defamations laws, how long you can keep repeating a 2007 view without making clear it reflects a 2007 position.
I think Mr Amaral would need a minor revision of chapter 23 to get it through current libel laws, and to get it past moderation on this forum. However, I don't think the original book has any mileage left in it as a commercial product, so I think it will drift into the history of 2008.
Thoughtful post.
In response to the part I underline, there is no evidence that Mark Harrison ever considered that Madeleine was dead; indeed evidence that he never reached a firm conclusion (in direct contravention of Amaral's assertion in his book).
Almeida did; doubtless Amaral with him. We know that Joao Carlos (briefly) did, but changed his mind (and amended with a genuinely fine final PJ report, just before the archiving.)
What is meant when it says that Amaral's book is based on the files is that Amaral's book is based on Almeida's report.
It largely is; but emphatically not Joao Carlos's final report; still less the archiving despatch, both written after Amaral was removed from the investigation (is that, by Portuguese law, a mitigation in favour of Amaral? I've no idea).
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 27, 2016, 06:52:33 PM
I don't suppose he gives a rat's wotsit. He has enough dosh to fund the latest round of the legal hooha and the message about his thesis is getting out there in spades. I would call that a result.
Oh I would go one further and say WOW -81million all learning bout his thesis, Grrrrrreat result!
oh dearie me McCanns should give up with the foot ball they just seem to be playing by their own rules and achieving own goals when they attack the 'opposition' Tsk
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 27, 2016, 06:56:54 PM
In another thread Ferryman posted "... Of the course the book harmed the search for Madeleine by stating, categorically, that Madeleine is dead and telling people (who read it) the McCanns knew she was dead. ... "
I asked for info about the 'categorically'.
Ferryman was kind enough to direct me to the final chapter of TOTL, which I have now re-read, so here is my response.
The final chapter, chapter 23, at least in English, would probably fall foul of current moderation re libel, as applied in this forum.
His view on Jane Tanner's statement is sailing close to the wind. "Jane Tanner's witness statement in favour of the theory of abduction is probably false: little by little it has lost all credibility because of successive modifications introduced by Jane, modifications that have ended up invalidating it." On balance, I think it would scrape through on a combo of 'probably', plus the supporting evidence.
His cherry picking re dogs and lab evidence would probably get flushed, so I will not quote it. Suffice to say he is mistakenly depicting the dogs and does not cover final lab evidence.
I'm not aware of what the actual position was when Amaral was taken off the case. Is this an 'accurate' reflection of what was known in the investigation at the time, or is it not only inaccurate but also was known to be inaccurate at the time?
Possibly the crunchiest bit starts "The conclusions my team and I have arrived at are the following:"
Without going into detail, a summary involves Madeleine dying (probably by accident) and the McCanns being involved in concealment of the body.
This happens to be a theorem. It happens to be a theorem that appears to have some public support. It happens to be one of several theories that have some public support.
So for me, the test is simple. Did Gonçalo and team arrive at such conclusions? Not, are the conclusions accurate or inaccurate. Not do they stand up to scrutiny with 2016 knowledge. Not even did they stack up at the time Mr Amaral was removed. Just does it accurately reflect the thinking of Amaral et al whenever he got hoiked in 2007?
I do not know, under Portuguese or English defamations laws, how long you can keep repeating a 2007 view without making clear it reflects a 2007 position.
I think Mr Amaral would need a minor revision of chapter 23 to get it through current libel laws, and to get it past moderation on this forum. However, I don't think the original book has any mileage left in it as a commercial product, so I think it will drift into the history of 2008.
the book contains this passage..
English and Portuguese police get together to analyse the results of Eddie and Keela's searches.
- What we can deduce at this stage is that only the McCanns are implicated. The dogs did not detect blood or cadaver odour other than with them.
- From now on we have the certainty that there was a body behind the sofa before being taken into the parents' bedroom.
- If the blood found behind the sofa is that of the little girl, we can assume that she died there.
Amaral states with certainty there was a body behind the sofa before being taken into the parents bedroom...no theorem...with certainty...you have read the book 3 times...have you not noticed this
amaral goes on to say this body is maddie...how anyone can say that amaral stating this has not harmed the search is beyond comprehension
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 27, 2016, 06:59:25 PM
In what way has it harmed the 'search'
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on May 27, 2016, 07:10:37 PM
If Amaral and his team concluded in the Summer of 2007 that Madeleine had certainly died in the apartment perhaps you can tell me why they would put any serious effort into following up potential leads which suggested a different scenario?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2016, 07:12:59 PM
If Amaral and his team concluded in the Summer of 2007 that Madeleine had certainly died in the apartment perhaps you can tell me why they would put any serious effort into following up potential leads which suggested a different scenario?
Very good question.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2016, 07:19:54 PM
English Law is based on common law, where precedent prevails. Where the common law is patently unfair then equitable (i.e. codified) remedies are introduced.
Most European countries are based on roman or civil law, which is codified. Precedent does not apply, so there is no obligation on a court to follow the decision of any other court.
In very simplistic terms, one can say that in the UK everything is permitted except that which is expressly forbidden.
In Europe, everything is forbidden except that which is expressly permitted.
Thank you for clarifying Jean-Pierre.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 27, 2016, 07:20:08 PM
English and Portuguese police get together to analyse the results of Eddie and Keela's searches.
- What we can deduce at this stage is that only the McCanns are implicated. The dogs did not detect blood or cadaver odour other than with them.
- From now on we have the certainty that there was a body behind the sofa before being taken into the parents' bedroom.
- If the blood found behind the sofa is that of the little girl, we can assume that she died there.
Amaral states with certainty there was a body behind the sofa before being taken into the parents bedroom...no theorem...with certainty...you have read the book 3 times...have you not noticed this
amaral goes on to say this body is maddie...how anyone can say that amaral stating this has not harmed the search is beyond comprehension
The book has many passages, about which people are free to make up their own minds.
Did or did not the dogs alert to anything other than that associated with the McCanns? I am not aware of any other alert.
"From now on we have certainty ..." Sorry, which chapter? I will be happy to re-read it.
"If the blood ..." Personally, I note the word 'if'. Not - 'there was blood and it was Madeleine's'. But 'if'. While of course Madeleine's blood behind the couch would not convince me of Madeleine's demise behind the couch.
If you tell me which chapter, I will be happy to go back and review it again.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 27, 2016, 07:27:46 PM
The book has many passages, about which people are free to make up their own minds.
Did or did not the dogs alert to anything other than that associated with the McCanns? I am not aware of any other alert.
"From now on we have certainty ..." Sorry, which chapter? I will be happy to re-read it.
"If the blood ..." Personally, I note the word 'if'. Not - 'there was blood and it was Madeleine's'. But 'if'. While of course Madeleine's blood behind the couch would not convince me of Madeleine's demise behind the couch.
If you tell me which chapter, I will be happy to go back and review it again.
chapter 16...
Amralal was lead detective...if he states with certainty there was a body in 5a then people will believe him. He completely ignores what Grime says about the alerts
If amaral and his team believed with certainty taht maddie died in 5a and the parents covered up an accident...would they really investigate other scenarios
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 27, 2016, 07:32:23 PM
Amralal was lead detective...if he states with certainty there was a body in 5a then people will believe him. He completely ignores what Grime says about the alerts
If amaral and his team believed with certainty taht maddie died in 5a and the parents covered up an accident...would they really investigate other scenarios
They would have to look at ALL scenarios, their belief is just a belief, It is only a thesis. nothing to get all bothered about really. Why all the fuss about suing is beyond me.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 27, 2016, 07:34:17 PM
They would have to look at ALL scenarios, their belief is just a belief, It is only a thesis. nothing to get all bothered about really. Why all the fuss about suing is beyond me.
amaral states with certainty...he does not talk of belief or a thesis
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on May 27, 2016, 07:36:40 PM
In another thread Ferryman posted "... Of the course the book harmed the search for Madeleine by stating, categorically, that Madeleine is dead and telling people (who read it) the McCanns knew she was dead. ... "
I asked for info about the 'categorically'.
Ferryman was kind enough to direct me to the final chapter of TOTL, which I have now re-read, so here is my response.
The final chapter, chapter 23, at least in English, would probably fall foul of current moderation re libel, as applied in this forum.
His view on Jane Tanner's statement is sailing close to the wind. "Jane Tanner's witness statement in favour of the theory of abduction is probably false: little by little it has lost all credibility because of successive modifications introduced by Jane, modifications that have ended up invalidating it." On balance, I think it would scrape through on a combo of 'probably', plus the supporting evidence.
His cherry picking re dogs and lab evidence would probably get flushed, so I will not quote it. Suffice to say he is mistakenly depicting the dogs and does not cover final lab evidence.
I'm not aware of what the actual position was when Amaral was taken off the case. Is this an 'accurate' reflection of what was known in the investigation at the time, or is it not only inaccurate but also was known to be inaccurate at the time?
Possibly the crunchiest bit starts "The conclusions my team and I have arrived at are the following:"
Without going into detail, a summary involves Madeleine dying (probably by accident) and the McCanns being involved in concealment of the body.
This happens to be a theorem. It happens to be a theorem that appears to have some public support. It happens to be one of several theories that have some public support.
So for me, the test is simple. Did Gonçalo and team arrive at such conclusions? Not, are the conclusions accurate or inaccurate. Not do they stand up to scrutiny with 2016 knowledge. Not even did they stack up at the time Mr Amaral was removed. Just does it accurately reflect the thinking of Amaral et al whenever he got hoiked in 2007?
I do not know, under Portuguese or English defamations laws, how long you can keep repeating a 2007 view without making clear it reflects a 2007 position.
I think Mr Amaral would need a minor revision of chapter 23 to get it through current libel laws, and to get it past moderation on this forum. However, I don't think the original book has any mileage left in it as a commercial product, so I think it will drift into the history of 2008.
I agree with most of that SIL, except that it's not just a single chapter that would need changing, IMO.
If he corrected his numerous "misunderstandings", there wouldn't be much left, IMO.
I still think that he could have written a best-seller in a different way. He could have moaned to his heart's content about finding himself in charge of a case that had quickly become a media frenzy and that he found himself without the resources to deal with it.
Instead, he chose to take the high road and insist that his "understanding" has to be what actually happened and has plonked himself on every matinée TV show that would accept him.
I think I lost any respect at that point.
Sorry if that offends anyone.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 27, 2016, 07:37:19 PM
They would have to look at ALL scenarios, their belief is just a belief, It is only a thesis. nothing to get all bothered about really. Why all the fuss about suing is beyond me.
They would have to look at ALL scenarios, their belief is just a belief, It is only a thesis.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2016, 07:38:06 PM
Perhaps a nod to the title of the thread would be nice? Is there a thread to discuss the merits of the book elsewhere perhaps?
I repeat, it has no bearing on the 'libel' trial at this stage. The McCanns said it harmed the search, the Fund Directors said the same. The supporters think it did. It wasn't proved, so it's all just opinion.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2016, 07:42:07 PM
Amralal was lead detective...if he states with certainty there was a body in 5a then people will believe him. He completely ignores what Grime says about the alerts
If amaral and his team believed with certainty taht maddie died in 5a and the parents covered up an accident...would they really investigate other scenarios
Yes, that's my problem as well. If casual readers assume that he knows what he was talking about, then obviously they will assume that his (frankly bizarre, IMO) understanding of numerous aspects must be correct.
And both he and the tabloids, including the tabloid TV shows have a tendency to "forget" that his spoutings simply don't reflect what could be ascertained following his 5-month stint on the case.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2016, 07:45:23 PM
Perhaps a nod to the title of the thread would be nice? Is there a thread to discuss the merits of the book elsewhere perhaps?
I repeat, it has no bearing on the 'libel' trial at this stage. The McCanns said it harmed the search, the Fund Directors said the same. The supporters think it did. It wasn't proved, so it's all just opinion.
Not sure the first-instance judge said anything about the search; just the investigation, which she said, wasn't harmed by the book, unsurprisingly, since the book was released for sale after the investigation was shelved.
Was there mention of the search in the appeal-court ruling?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 27, 2016, 07:46:26 PM
Perhaps a nod to the title of the thread would be nice? Is there a thread to discuss the merits of the book elsewhere perhaps?
I repeat, it has no bearing on the 'libel' trial at this stage. The McCanns said it harmed the search, the Fund Directors said the same. The supporters think it did. It wasn't proved, so it's all just opinion.
Yes, without providing any evidence at all.None. zilch. Nada.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 27, 2016, 07:48:35 PM
If Amaral and his team concluded in the Summer of 2007 that Madeleine had certainly died in the apartment perhaps you can tell me why they would put any serious effort into following up potential leads which suggested a different scenario?
GA was off the case a few weeks after the interim report of sept 07 where the teams theory was finalised, so your question is better directed at Paulo Rebelo his successor. We cant know anythng for a fact as the case was closed in summer 2008 just before GAs book came out so there are no files to consult, but you can consult the existing ones for work done oct 07 to june 08 and any reputable media sources for the times of interest
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on May 27, 2016, 08:31:09 PM
GA was off the case a few weeks after the interim report of sept 07 where the teams theory was finalised, so your question is better directed at Paulo Rebelo his successor. We cant know anythng for a fact as the case was closed in summer 2008 just before GAs book came out so there are no files to consult, but you can consult the existing ones for work done oct 07 to june 08 and any reputable media sources for the times of interest
My question is directed specifically to Amaral and his team who concluded that Madeleine had certainly died in the apartment - why would they put any serious effort into following up potential leads that pointed to adifferent scenario (up to the point at which he was booted off the case and someone with more logical thought processes was appointed). This thread is about Amaral, his book, his conclusions and the damage he potentially inflicted on the investigation, Madeleine and her parents.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 27, 2016, 08:35:35 PM
My question is directed specifically to Amaral and his team who concluded that Madeleine had certainly died in the apartment - why would they put any serious effort into following up potential leads that pointed to adifferent scenario (up to the point at which he was booted off the case and someone with more logical thought processes was appointed). This thread is about Amaral, his book, his conclusions and the damage he potentially inflicted on the investigation, Madeleine and her parents.
First you have to prove they didnt up until GA was removed, then ask the question, and then move on, logically, in your quest
Do you really think all those hundreds of thousands of PJ files were all detailing efforts designed to frame the Mccanns or sabotage any lead? Then youre not as aufait as I thought you might be.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 27, 2016, 08:42:23 PM
My question is directed specifically to Amaral and his team who concluded that Madeleine had certainly died in the apartment - why would they put any serious effort into following up potential leads that pointed to adifferent scenario (up to the point at which he was booted off the case and someone with more logical thought processes was appointed). This thread is about Amaral, his book, his conclusions and the damage he potentially inflicted on the investigation, Madeleine and her parents.
Are you suggesting they didn't and do you have any evidence to support this? we have already heard the McCanns claim that 'no body was doing anything' whereas that was evidently not true. Many locals and PJ were out searching. even though they had no clue of the time scale of Maddies disappearance. Was she missing for hours? half hour? minutes before her mother noticed her missing? Hmmm you see the difficulty here- where to search!
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 27, 2016, 08:44:11 PM
Amralal was lead detective...if he states with certainty there was a body in 5a then people will believe him. He completely ignores what Grime says about the alerts
If amaral and his team believed with certainty taht maddie died in 5a and the parents covered up an accident...would they really investigate other scenarios
Thank you. I will go back and review it when I can. At the moment, dinner is top of the agenda.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2016, 08:46:24 PM
First you have to prove they didnt up until GA was removed, then ask the question, and then move on, logically, in your quest
Do you really think all those hundreds of thousands of PJ files were all detailing efforts designed to frame the Mccanns or sabotage any lead? Then youre not as aufait as I thought you might be.
depends who you mean by they doesn't it?
Mark Harrison certainly didn't.
Martin Grime (after a fashion) toed the correct line and said that no incriminating inference should be drawn from the reactions of the dogs (without corroborating evidence).
Joao Carlos, at one point, entertained the notion of parental guilt, but atoned with a genuinely fine final PJ report.
We can confidently predict that Stuart Prior never thought the McCanns guilty.
Who else?
It's an interesting point whether Amaral can get away with recording the point of the investigation when he left it without the (more complete) picture that emerged.
Amaral says that the prosecutors 'changed their minds', and that is actually conceivable, in a way not remotely pejorative of them.
They are human, and are likely to have been influenced by the lurid reports in the early days, as much as the rest of us.
But, exercising the proper judicial caution expected of them by dint of the positions they occupied, they waited until they had read the entirety of the files before reaching a final, and definitive, conclusion.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 27, 2016, 09:09:19 PM
Martin Grime (after a fashion) toed the correct line and said that no incriminating inference should be drawn from the reactions of the dogs (without corroborating evidence).
Joao Carlos, at one point, entertained the notion of parental guilt, but atoned with a genuinely fine final PJ report.
We can confidently predict that Stuart Prior never thought the McCanns guilty.
Who else?
It's an interesting point whether Amaral can get away with recording the point of the investigation when he left it without the (more complete) picture that emerged.
Amaral says that the prosecutors 'changed their minds', and that is actually conceivable, in a way not remotely pejorative of them.
They are human, and are likely to have been influenced by the lurid reports in the early days, as much as the rest of us.
But, exercising the proper judicial caution expected of them by dint of the positions they occupied, they waited until they had read the entirety of the files before reaching a final, and definitive, conclusion.
Dunno what that means. His book is back on sale if that helps to answer your question.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2016, 09:41:10 PM
Dunno what that means. His book is back on sale if that helps to answer your question.
No it doesn't.
Amaral's book takes the investigation as far as Almeida's interim report, mangles and misrepresents the work of Mark Harrison and has a conclusion diametrically opposite from that of the Portuguese prosecutors.
What is meant by 'Amaral's books reflects what's written in the files' is 'Amaral's book reflects what's written in Almeida's interim report.
It doesn't reflect the final PJ report (it couldn't, because it was written before that report was written) neither does it reflect the archiving dispatch (same reason).
Amaral's book chronically misrepresents Mark Harrison and libels Stuart Prior (incidentally, also, libelling the McCanns).
I don't understand Portuguese libel law at all (based on this, most recent, ruling).
It seems to have nothing to do with any duty incumbent on a defendant to represent truth, balance and objectivity.
I've never seen the film, but I gather from those who have, that's worse (hard to believe) ....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2016, 09:57:12 PM
I don't think you fully understand the terms. There's a good explanation if you follow the link;
Most nations today follow one of two major legal traditions: common law or civil law. The common law tradition emerged in England during the Middle Ages and was applied within British colonies across continents. The civil law tradition developed in continental Europe at the same time and was applied in the colonies of European imperial powers such as Spain and Portugal. https://www.law.berkeley.edu/library/robbins/CommonLawCivilLawTraditions.html
Interesting read, and thank you.
For example, the English High Court is classified as a civil court; also the English County Court
http://www.inbrief.co.uk/legal-system/high-court/
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2016, 10:05:54 PM
First you have to prove they didnt up until GA was removed, then ask the question, and then move on, logically, in your quest
Do you really think all those hundreds of thousands of PJ files were all detailing efforts designed to frame the Mccanns or sabotage any lead? Then youre not as aufait as I thought you might be.
Come on, think logically: why would Amaral and his team vigorously pursue leads that pointed to a scenario which didn't involve death in the apartment if they were certain that is what had happened?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 27, 2016, 10:56:46 PM
Come on, think logically: why would Amaral and his team vigorously pursue leads that pointed to a scenario which didn't involve death in the apartment if they were certain that is what had happened?
Simply because amaral wasnt there anymore, others were
If you read back your question was about the book and whether it stopped investigating other theories...the book was published in aug 2008 the case was closed
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 28, 2016, 10:21:08 AM
I was referring to the legal systems of the two countries, which is what the link explains. UK is common law, Portugal is civil.
Quote
An overview of civil proceedings in England and Wales This guide was last updated in August 2011. Court procedure Litigation & International Arbitration Banks TMT Diversified industrial Energy Public sector Insurance and wealth management UK Unlike in other jurisdictions, there is no single codified source of civil law. English civil law is made up of legislation by Parliament and decisions by the courts. English courts interpret legislation and are usually required to follow decisions on the same issue made by a court of equivalent or higher status. Legislation and decisions of the courts are subject to legislation adopted by the European Council and decisions of the European Court of Justice. The court system The English civil court system is divided between the High Court and the county courts. This guide addresses the procedure in the High Court, which deals largely with claims in excess of £50,000. The High Court has jurisdiction over most matters through its District Registries and the Royal Courts of Justice in London. It is divided into three divisions: Chancery, Queen's Bench and Family. The Chancery Division deals with companies generally and such specialist matters as wills, trusts, insolvency and tax. The Queen's Bench Division (QBD) deals with all other civil matters including contractual disputes, personal injury cases, industrial accidents, defamation cases and negligence claims. Both the Chancery Division and the QBD have specialist courts dealing in specific areas. For example the QBD has two main specialist courts, the Commercial Court dealing with commercial disputes and the Technology and Construction Court which deals primarily with construction and technology disputes. The Court of Appeal deals with appeals from a decision of a High Court judge. On issues of public importance there is a further and final stage of appeal, to the Supreme Court, where the appeal is heard usually by five Justices. Occasionally, matters may be referred to the European Court of Justice for guidance on points of EU law. Lawyers The legal profession is split between barristers, often referred to as 'counsel', and solicitors. Barristers are specialist advocates who have the right to appear in the higher courts. They also draft documents for court and give opinions in particular areas of law in which they are expert. Barristers are self-employed and do not generally deal with clients directly. Senior barristers may be appointed as Queen's Counsel; all other barristers are known as juniors. Solicitors have day-to-day contact with clients and have the main responsibility for handling cases. They may also appear as advocates in the higher courts if they are qualified to do so. Most commercial solicitors practise in partnership with other solicitors. Although both barristers and solicitors are eligible for appointment as High Court judges, the majority of judges are barristers.
Civil Procedure Rules The Civil Procedure Rules (CPR) were introduced in 1998 to govern the procedure that is followed within the English civil court system. The CPR requires that all cases are dealt with in a way that enables the court to deal with cases justly. This includes: ensuring parties are on an equal footing; dealing with the case in ways which are proportionate to the amount of money involved, the importance of the case, the complexity of the issues and the financial position of each party; ensuring that the case is dealt with expeditiously and fairly. This is known as the "overriding objective" of the CPR. The path of a claim A typical claim dealt with by the High Court will take approximately 12-18 months to get to trial from the date of issue of the claim form. Pre-action matters: before proceedings are issued, parties are required to act reasonably in exchanging information and documents in an attempt to settle their dispute without recourse to litigation. Sanctions may be imposed against parties who fail to comply with these requirement, for example, a party may be ordered to pay costs to the other party for failing to act reasonably. In addition there are a number of 'pre-action protocols' – these set out the procedure to be followed in certain categories of dispute, such as construction or professional negligence. Issuing proceedings and court documents: proceedings begin when the claimant issues a claim form that must contain or be accompanied by the particulars of claim. The claim form and particulars of claim must set out a summary of the basic facts of the claim against the defendant. Failing to do this may allow the defendant to strike out the claim. The claimant will have to pay a fee to issue the claim form, the amount of which depends on the value and nature of the claim. The documents have to be served on the defendant in accordance with special rules and within prescribed timeframes. When the defendant is served with court proceedings, he has to indicate whether he accepts or intends to defend the claim. Again, this must be done within prescribed time limits and the court must be notified. If the defendant wishes to defend the claim he must serve a defence, including any counterclaim, normally within 28 days of receiving the claim form. This defence is also an important document because if it is regarded as weak, the claimant can seek to strike it out or seek summary judgment against the defendant. A failure to serve a defence will allow the claimant to win the case by default. Further court documents may be served and filed at court in order to clarify each party's position. All court documents will be accompanied by a statement of truth verifying the truth of the information contained in the document - please see our separate OUT-LAW Guide for more information. Court documents including the claim form, particulars of claim, defence and any counterclaim will, in certain circumstances, be accessible to third parties. Case management: all cases are actively managed by the courts to ensure that they proceed properly. The courts will consider whether the likely benefits of taking a particular step will justify the cost. Case management also allows the court to try to encourage the parties to settle their disputes without the need for trial, through alternative dispute resolution procedures (ADR) such as mediation. Please see our separate OUT-LAW Guide for more information. Disclosure of documents: a party must disclose to the other party the documents (including electronic documents, for example, e mails) it seeks to rely on, as well as the documents which adversely affect its own or another party's case or support another party's case. This may include confidential documents if they are relevant to the dispute. Certain documents may be exempt from disclosure on the grounds of 'legal professional privilege' – please see our separate OUT-LAW Guide for more information. Witness statements: if a party wants to provide oral evidence at trial, then it should disclose this evidence in written format. This can be a vital stage in the proceedings as what is said in a witness statement may be determine whether party seeks to settle the dispute. A witness statement should set out the facts to which the witness will testify at the trial. It must be certified to be true by the witness. Statements are exchanged several weeks before the trial. Witnesses may be cross-examined by the other party's lawyer at trial; US style depositions are not normally allowed in English proceedings. Please see our separate OUT-LAW Guide for more information. Expert evidence: if a party needs to rely on the opinion of an expert on a particular issue, the court's permission will be needed. An expert witness must be independent, with an overriding duty to the court rather than the instructing party, and the court can order the parties to share the evidence of an expert on a particular issue. There can be more than one expert witness per case if there are several areas of expertise to address. An expert witness may be involved in court proceedings and may be called to give evidence although there are strict rules about the content and format of an expert witness's report and the evidence he may give. Please see our separate OUT-LAW Guide for more information. Trial: with the exception of civil fraud and defamation cases there is no right to trial by jury – the trial will be determined by the judge alone. English trials are predominantly oral, requiring each party's counsel to make oral submissions and draw the judge's attention to the relevant evidence and law. However, before the start of the trial, the judge will generally have read the court documents, witness statements, experts' reports and skeleton arguments drafted by counsel. The judge does not make his own investigations, but he may put questions to counsel or witnesses. In summary, the trial consists of each party's advocate setting out their case and calling on the evidence of the witnesses and experts that they seek to rely on. These witnesses may be cross-examined by the opposing barrister. The trial will end with both parties' barristers summing up the evidence and making submissions on the relevant law. The judge will make his decision based on the evidence and arguments put before him. Judgement may be given immediately after the trial or, in more complicated cases, reserved until a later date when the judge has reflected on the issues. If a party seeks to appeal the judgement it must obtain the permission of the court - permission will only be given in limited circumstances. Costs Although it is at the discretion of the court, the general rule is that the unsuccessful party will be ordered to pay the costs of the successful party. Any breach of the CPR or the overriding objective may result in a costs sanction being imposed on the "offending" party even if that party is successful at trial overall. Generally, in the absence of unreasonable conduct, the successful party can expect to recover approximately 60-65% of its legal costs from the losing party. Funding It is also possible for parties to agree conditional fee agreements (CFAs) with their lawyers. A CFA allows a lawyer to charge a success fee on top of the normal fee if the case is successful, and either a reduced fee or no fee at all if the case is unsuccessful. The success fee may be payable by the other party. Contingency fees at present are prohibited. There are also other methods of funding litigation, for example, legal expense insurance and third party funding. Enforcement of judgement When a judgement is obtained, the unsuccessful party may make payment voluntarily. If it does not, various enforcement procedures are available including arranging for assets to be seized and sold or obtaining a charging order over the unsuccessful party's property. There is also the option of forcing the party into insolvency if the judgement sum is not paid. Strategic issues There are a number of strategic measures that may help the resolution of a case, including: offers to settle – while these can be made at any time in a dispute, the CPR gives the party making an offer to settle specific cost advantages provided that the offer meets prescribed requirements. For more information, please see our separate OUT-LAW Guide to Part 36 Offers; offer to settle a dispute using ADR - a party who unreasonably refuses an offer to settle a case in this way may incur cost penalties; injunctions – in some cases it may be necessary to stop a party from doing something immediately or to preserve assets until after the trial. In appropriate cases, the court may grant an injunction to preserve the parties' positions until their rights have been determined. The applicant does not have to prove its underlying claim at the injunction hearing but must show that it has a good arguable claim and provide an undertaking to compensate the other party for any loss caused by the injunction being wrongly granted; security for costs – the usual costs rule is that the losing party will pay a substantial proportion of the winning party's legal costs. If the defendant is confident of successfully defending its claim but fears that the claimant will not or cannot pay any costs, it can apply to the court early in the proceedings for an order that the claimant provide security for any costs it may be liable to pay in certain circumstances. For more information, please see our separate OUT-LAW Guide.
Simply because amaral wasnt there anymore, others were
If you read back your question was about the book and whether it stopped investigating other theories...the book was published in aug 2008 the case was closed
Strawman.
We are discussing why Amaral should lose the libel trial
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 28, 2016, 10:44:53 AM
To be clear, G-Unit has identified a distinction between English civil law and civil law in other parts of Europe (including Portugal).
But that wasn't G-Unit's claim.
G-Unit's claim was that England doesn't have civil law.
England does have civil law.
Just to be clear, I didn't say any of the above. Read my posts, Jean-Pierre's post and the links again. Both countries have civil and criminal law. but based on completely different SYSTEMS. England has a common law system, Portugal a civil law system.
Therefore your suggestion that Portugal uses Volenti non fit iniuria (to him who is willing no harm can come) was wrong because that's a common law doctrine, applying only in countries using a common law system. Portugal isn't one of them.
This is what you said;
Annulment of this to s/he who is willing, no harm can come maxim and restoration of the proper rules of libel, which would assuredly see Amaral fully accountable for his lies and traducement. Reply #2605 on: May 27, 2016, 10:53:41 AM »
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 28, 2016, 01:04:43 PM
Just to be clear, I didn't say any of the above. Read my posts, Jean-Pierre's post and the links again. Both countries have civil and criminal law. but based on completely different SYSTEMS. England has a common law system, Portugal a civil law system.
Therefore your suggestion that Portugal uses Volenti non fit iniuria (to him who is willing no harm can come) was wrong because that's a common law doctrine, applying only in countries using a common law system. Portugal isn't one of them.
This is what you said;
Annulment of this to s/he who is willing, no harm can come maxim and restoration of the proper rules of libel, which would assuredly see Amaral fully accountable for his lies and traducement. Reply #2605 on: May 27, 2016, 10:53:41 AM »
(G-Unit, yesterday, at 10.53)
T
Quote
hat principle you have found is a common law principle used in the UK and other associated countries. Portugal uses civil law, which is different.
Therefore it has no bearing on the ruling of the Appeal Court.
Different from what?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 28, 2016, 02:43:17 PM
Arrrhhhh. DIFFERENT FROM COMMON LAW You quoted a common law principle not applicable in Portugal, because their system is based on civil law.
Just as a matter of interest is anyone else unable to understand what I'm saying?
I think maybe it needs to be simplified a bit. All jurisdictions draw a distinction between criminal law (self explanatory really) and civil law (disputes, property, defamation, family etc).
Then there are two different systems.
Common law - based on the principle of precedent where a decision by a court is binding on all lower courts for similar fact cases. This can be modified by an equitable (parliament) remedy where the common law produces unfair decisions.
Codified - used in continental Europe and based on Roman law. All law is governed by statute and precedent does not apply.
So you have, in England, civil and criminal law both based on the common law.
In Europe you have civil and criminal law based on a codified Roman law.
Before anyone starts nitpicking there are anomalies such as criminal defamation, and there is the tension between English and EU law, so there are shades of grey. At least 50
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 28, 2016, 03:26:15 PM
I think maybe it needs to be simplified a bit. All jurisdictions draw a distinction between criminal law (self explanatory really) and civil law (disputes, property, defamation, family etc).
Then there are two different systems.
Common law - based on the principle of precedent where a decision by a court is binding on all lower courts for similar fact cases. This can be modified by an equitable (parliament) remedy where the common law produces unfair decisions.
Codified - used in continental Europe and based on Roman law. All law is governed by statute and precedent does not apply.
So you have, in England, civil and criminal law both based on the common law.
In Europe you have civil and criminal law based on a codified Roman law.
Before anyone starts nitpicking there are anomalies such as criminal defamation, and there is the tension between English and EU law, so there are shades of grey. At least 50
Good post, thanks.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on May 28, 2016, 04:59:43 PM
I think maybe it needs to be simplified a bit. All jurisdictions draw a distinction between criminal law (self explanatory really) and civil law (disputes, property, defamation, family etc).
Then there are two different systems.
Common law - based on the principle of precedent where a decision by a court is binding on all lower courts for similar fact cases. This can be modified by an equitable (parliament) remedy where the common law produces unfair decisions.
Codified - used in continental Europe and based on Roman law. All law is governed by statute and precedent does not apply.
So you have, in England, civil and criminal law both based on the common law.
In Europe you have civil and criminal law based on a codified Roman law.
Before anyone starts nitpicking there are anomalies such as criminal defamation, and there is the tension between English and EU law, so there are shades of grey. At least 50
Some members make the mistake of attempting to compare English Law with Portuguese Law. Just like the language, there simply are some words which do not translate.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 28, 2016, 05:50:19 PM
Some members make the mistake of attempting to compare English Law with Portuguese Law. Just like the language, there simply are some words which do not translate.
The general principles and objectives are similar, John. It is really only the details that are different. It stems from a fundamental principle that in English law everything is permitted except that which is forbidden and in continental systems everything is forbidden except that which is permitted. Once that is understood it all makes more sense
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 29, 2016, 11:25:30 AM
The basis of the appeal (courtesy of Leonard Port):
Quote
The lawyer for Kate and Gerry McCann has filed an appeal in Portugal’s Supreme Court following last month’s Appellate Court decision in favour of Gonçalo Amaral. This is the latest move in the long-running civil action over the former lead detective’s controversial book about Madeleine McCann’s disappearance in 2007. The court last month overturned an earlier decision to award half-a-million euros in damages to the McCanns. The Supreme Court review is expected to focus mainly on legal aspects of the case rather than material issues. The lifting of both the damages ruling and the ban on further publication of the book was seen as a highly significant decision within traditional areas of conflict: the right to honour and privacy on the one hand, and to freedom of expression and opinion on the other. Freedom of expression is a fundamental right enshrined in the Portuguese constitution that applies to every citizen, but it comes with certain constraints. While everyone has a right to express and to publicise their thoughts in words, image or by any other means, the constitution also states that everyone has a right to a good name and reputation and to the protection of the intimacy of private and family life. The media have the right - indeed it is their social function - to spread news and give critical or non-critical opinions. It is important that they do so with respect for the truth and for the intangible rights of others, said the three appeal judges in this case last month. Amaral, in his book “The Truth of the Lie”, not only included facts that were evidence in the inquiry into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, but aired his opinion that Madeleine was not abducted. He suggested that she died accidentally and that her parents covered this up by concealing her body and making up a false story. The facts of the case in the form of evidence in police files had already been widely published in newspapers and on the internet as a result of an initiative by the office of Portugal’s prosecutor general. Amaral had the legitimate right to describe and interpret these facts. The allegation expressed in his book that the McCanns were involved in a cover-up was not new either. It was already in the public domain as it was contained in the police files and was the basis upon which the couple had been declared official suspects, or “arguidos”, in the original investigation. The judges indicated that the McCanns had voluntarily limited their rights to privacy by making themselves available to the national and international media to which they had easy access. In effect, they opened the way for anyone to debate and express opinions about the case, including opinions that contradicted their own. In essence, the appeal judges ruled that the McCanns' rights had not been infringed and that Amaral’s book was a lawful example of freedom of expression. Many observers would argue that the lawsuit instigated by the McCanns seven years ago is turning out to be more harmful and costly to them than the defendants. It has inadvertently generated publicity of a kind they least wanted and boosted book sales, but they have instructed their Lisbon lawyer, Isabel Duarte, to continue to the highest level. Even that may not be the end of this dispute. Amaral is considering turning tables and suing the McCanns for damages.
By LEN PORT
- See more at: http://portugalresident.com/mccanns-appealing-to-supreme-court-privacy-versus-freedom-of-expression#sthash.VaSLpBYR.dpuf
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 29, 2016, 11:51:52 AM
The general principles and objectives are similar, John. It is really only the details that are different. It stems from a fundamental principle that in English law everything is permitted except that which is forbidden and in continental systems everything is forbidden except that which is permitted. Once that is understood it all makes more sense
See, taking that as literal, we know that, Portugal, it is not permitted to slay reputation with lies.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on May 29, 2016, 01:02:49 PM
See, taking that as literal, we know that, Portugal, it is not permitted to slay reputation with lies.
Thing is though, only Madeleine's abductor (if such exists) knows what is a lie and what is the truth.
Amaral doesn't even know the answer to this, he has a thesis based on the evidence the PJ collected. Under Portuguese Law he is entitled to espouse that thesis. Until such time as Madeleine's fate is known it is incorrect to accuse anyone of telling lies in this case unless we have evidence to the contrary.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on May 29, 2016, 01:05:50 PM
Accountability (if not direct responsibility) for leaks from the enquiry might be another ....
And (I still reckon) there's a basis for pinning this Gerry not Madeleine's father leak on Amaral.
We'll see.
Don't think so, FM.
a) Journalists' sources are protected.
b) The fact that that happened under his watch (as did many other garbled leaks) can't be directly attributable to him.
c) Even if CCTV images were to appear showing him handing over any particular document to waiting tabloids (which will never happen), it would be a separate matter, and would come under penal law.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on May 29, 2016, 01:08:21 PM
Thing is though, only Madeleine's abductor (if such exists) knows what is a lie and what is the truth.
Amaral doesn't even know the answer to this, he has a thesis based on the evidence the PJ collected. Under Portuguese Law he is entitled to espouse that thesis. Until such time as Madeleine's fate is known it is incorrect to accuse anyone of telling lies in this case unless we have evidence to the contrary.
In the meantime, what is your opinion of former police head honchos insisting that your missing child is dead and accusing you at every (lucrative) opportunity of criminal activity?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: faithlilly on May 29, 2016, 01:10:56 PM
In the meantime, what is your opinion of former police head honchos insisting that your missing child is dead and accusing you at every (lucrative) opportunity of criminal activity?
Not sure the Potuguese courts will take our opinion into account Carana.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on May 29, 2016, 01:19:44 PM
In the meantime, what is your opinion of former police head honchos insisting that your missing child is dead and accusing you at every (lucrative) opportunity of criminal activity?
Without proof there shouldn't be any. That said however, when arguidos behave in a most unorthodox manner questions will most certainly be asked and accusations made.
In cases of claimed child abduction, investigators have to be extremely careful not to jump to any conclusion too quickly. They must keep an open mind as to the various possibilities. Amaral and his team fell foul of this most basic requirement, they chose to pursue the child abduction theory to the exclusion of all else. It was only later when inquiries failed to produce any results that they turned their attention to the parents. By then it was far too late!
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on May 29, 2016, 07:30:02 PM
Without proof there shouldn't be any. That said however, when arguidos behave in a most unorthodox manner questions will most certainly be asked and accusations made.
In cases of claimed child abduction, investigators have to be extremely careful not to jump to any conclusion too quickly. They must keep an open mind as to the various possibilities. Amaral and his team fell foul of this most basic requirement, they chose to pursue the child abduction theory to the exclusion of all else. It was only later when inquiries failed to produce any results that they turned their attention to the parents. By then it was far too late!
the PJ were told to pursue the abduction lead at the beginning, after the meeting between the Portuguese authorities and the British ambassador. There was a lot of pressure and the Portuguese were too humble to stand up to the British.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 29, 2016, 07:35:04 PM
My opinion is that the Portuguese were a bit out of their depth and deferred to the British because they were perceived as the experts.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on May 29, 2016, 07:39:59 PM
the PJ were told to pursue the abduction lead at the beginning, after the meeting between the Portuguese authorities and the British ambassador. There was a lot of pressure and the Portuguese were too humble to stand up to the British.
Could we have a cite for that, and also a reason why a) the British Ambassador would instruct the PJ in this matter and b) why the PJ took orders from the British ambassador. Being "too humble" is a bit of a lame excuse.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 29, 2016, 07:48:57 PM
Could we have a cite for that, and also a reason why a) the British Ambassador would instruct the PJ in this matter and b) why the PJ took orders from the British ambassador. Being "too humble" is a bit of a lame excuse.
You do realize, don't you, the Portuguese were looking for a missing child, and the McCann's were shouting abduction.
Then strangely enough, nothing could be found to back up an abduction.
What a surprise, that was.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 29, 2016, 07:57:34 PM
the PJ were told to pursue the abduction lead at the beginning, after the meeting between the Portuguese authorities and the British ambassador. There was a lot of pressure and the Portuguese were too humble to stand up to the British.
Drivel that demeans Portugal.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on May 30, 2016, 08:18:49 AM
Without proof there shouldn't be any. That said however, when arguidos behave in a most unorthodox manner questions will most certainly be asked and accusations made.
In cases of claimed child abduction, investigators have to be extremely careful not to jump to any conclusion too quickly. They must keep an open mind as to the various possibilities. Amaral and his team fell foul of this most basic requirement, they chose to pursue the child abduction theory to the exclusion of all else. It was only later when inquiries failed to produce any results that they turned their attention to the parents. By then it was far too late!
They did?
DN 5 May
"This is a very badly told story"
by José Manuel Oliveira and Paula Castanheira, 05May2007
The disappearance of Madeleine McCann, the English three-year-old child that was on holidays in Lagos, "is a very badly told story", a source from the Polícia Judiciária in Portimão has confided to DN. The statement reflects the authorities' doubts concerning the "confused" depositions that were given by the witnesses yesterday, throughout the day. http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic133.html
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2016, 09:19:41 AM
Yet more whinging in the Daily Star.
“The longer it goes on the more anguish it causes them”
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: xtina on May 30, 2016, 09:29:51 AM
does seem more like revenge than anguish..........
quote from star
But they have now submitted an appeal to Portugal's Supreme Court to overturn Mr Amaral's win.
If they lose, the legal bill could wipe out the Find Madeleine Fund set up using public donations to help the search for their daughter.
A friend of the couple said: "They are exasperated by this. The longer it goes on the more anguish it causes them.
http://laidbareblog.blogspot.co.uk/
Kate and Gerry gambled thousands upon thousands of pounds, directly from the fund, in the hope they could destroy one man’s life. Where is Madeleine in that thought process? It was they who instigated the costly legal process, and when it was they who duly lost, we were treated to reports in the media of how Goncalo Amaral will be depriving the McCanns of money set aside to find Madeleine.
UTTTER MOONSHINE!
Goncalo Amaral didn’t ask to be taken to court, he didn’t ask for the British press to smear him at every turn. Kate and Gerry McCann did that. In fact by taking Snr. Amaral to court, they actually publicised his book, better than any PR company, could have ever achieved. It was never about the book though, it was about hatred, and power.
They attacked; he defended himself; they lost...badly.
Not one, not two, but three judges, unanimously ruled, that Goncalo Amaral had no case to answer, and that Kate and Gerry, should pay all legal fees; their own, and Snr. Amaral's.
So instead of cutting their losses, and paying the legal fees they were ordered to, what do the McCanns do? They throw yet more money onto the table, and attempt an appeal; using yet more of the money they pathetically whine, was for Madeleine.
They're too arrogant to see, they're the ones throwing it away!
Do they have any chance of an appeal being granted? Not a chance. That hasn’t stopped them haemorrhaging yet more donations, in the pursuit of revenge.
If that money is truly for Madeleine, the dastardly duo should stop gambling it on twisted vendettas, and spend it on what they claim it is truly for. Finding the daughter, that one way or another, they were responsible for losing.
After all, what better way to prove Goncalo Amaral wrong, than to actually find Madeleine.
A gambling addiction, using public donations, is never going to achieve that.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2016, 09:33:37 AM
the PJ were told to pursue the abduction lead at the beginning, after the meeting between the Portuguese authorities and the British ambassador. There was a lot of pressure and the Portuguese were too humble to stand up to the British.
Crap!
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2016, 09:34:14 AM
does seem more like revenge than anguish..........
quote from star
But they have now submitted an appeal to Portugal's Supreme Court to overturn Mr Amaral's win.
If they lose, the legal bill could wipe out the Find Madeleine Fund set up using public donations to help the search for their daughter.
A friend of the couple said: "They are exasperated by this. The longer it goes on the more anguish it causes them.
http://laidbareblog.blogspot.co.uk/
Kate and Gerry gambled thousands upon thousands of pounds, directly from the fund, in the hope they could destroy one man’s life. Where is Madeleine in that thought process? It was they who instigated the costly legal process, and when it was they who duly lost, we were treated to reports in the media of how Goncalo Amaral will be depriving the McCanns of money set aside to find Madeleine.
UTTTER MOONSHINE!
Goncalo Amaral didn’t ask to be taken to court, he didn’t ask for the British press to smear him at every turn. Kate and Gerry McCann did that. In fact by taking Snr. Amaral to court, they actually publicised his book, better than any PR company, could have ever achieved. It was never about the book though, it was about hatred, and power.
They attacked; he defended himself; they lost...badly.
Not one, not two, but three judges, unanimously ruled, that Goncalo Amaral had no case to answer, and that Kate and Gerry, should pay all legal fees; their own, and Snr. Amaral's.
So instead of cutting their losses, and paying the legal fees they were ordered to, what do the McCanns do? They throw yet more money onto the table, and attempt an appeal; using yet more of the money they pathetically whine, was for Madeleine.
They're too arrogant to see, they're the ones throwing it away!
Do they have any chance of an appeal being granted? Not a chance. That hasn’t stopped them haemorrhaging yet more donations, in the pursuit of revenge.
If that money is truly for Madeleine, the dastardly duo should stop gambling it on twisted vendettas, and spend it on what they claim it is truly for. Finding the daughter, that one way or another, they were responsible for losing.
After all, what better way to prove Goncalo Amaral wrong, than to actually find Madeleine.
A gambling addiction, using public donations, is never going to achieve that.
It seems Xtina, the arrogance and self-pitying of the Mccanns knows no limits.
I thought searching for 'their beloved daughter' was their top priority.
Not in needless court cases.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2016, 09:52:51 AM
In fact all the court cases have done is give Amaral a world wide audience for his book.
If they had let it alone, hardly anyone would have noticed it.
There are also books written by other people about the case including Daniela Prousa which say far more about the Mccanns.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 30, 2016, 09:54:55 AM
It seems Xtina, the arrogance and self-pitying of the Mccanns knows no limits.
I thought searching for 'their beloved daughter' was their top priority.
Not in needless court cases.
The irony is that a court case against a book which was 'harming the search' for Madeleine has now become something completely different. They were unable to prove that assertion, so it can't be used as a justification any more.
What is the justification for continuing now? It seems to be because losing will 'wipe out the Fund', which will be needed when (not if, note) the SY investigation ends. So now it is about money pure and simple. The friend' isn't Clarence, imo, he would never make that statement of certainty about SY.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: xtina on May 30, 2016, 09:55:25 AM
The irony is that a court case against a book which was 'harming the search' for Madeleine has now become something completely different. They were unable to prove that assertion, so it can't be used as a justification any more.
What is the justification for continuing now? It seems to be because losing will 'wipe out the Fund', which will be needed when (not if, note) the SY investigation ends. So now it is about money pure and simple. The friend' isn't Clarence, imo, he would never make that statement of certainty about SY.
Does it all come down now to their intention of going to the ECHR.
If I am correct, they have to pursue all legal possibilities in their country before they do that.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: xtina on May 30, 2016, 10:14:38 AM
doubt they would get anywhere with E C H R
The right to respect for a private life often needs to be balanced against the right to freedom of expression....
For example a public (high profile) figure does not necessarily enjoy the same respect for their private life as others,
as matters of public concern might justify the publication of information about that person that might otherwise interfere with the right to privacy.......
Bearing in mind the Appeal Court's judgement that the McCanns voluntarily limit their own right to privacy by placing themselves in the national and intermediate media, so their right to privacy was self violated.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2016, 10:20:25 AM
The right to respect for a private life often needs to be balanced against the right to freedom of expression....
For example a public (high profile) figure does not necessarily enjoy the same respect for their private life as others,
as matters of public concern might justify the publication of information about that person that might otherwise interfere with the right to privacy.......
Bearing in mind the Appeal Court's judgement that the McCanns voluntarily limit their own right to privacy by placing themselves in the national and intermediate media, so their right to privacy was self violated.
I agree Xtina.
Your last sentence personifies why they would fail.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on May 30, 2016, 10:50:32 AM
My opinion is that the Portuguese were a bit out of their depth and deferred to the British because they were perceived as the experts.
I agree that they were out of their depth, but I'm not sure how they "deferred" to the UK. The PJ may well have felt submerged by the extent of UK assistance and, of course, the ensuing media frenzy. On the other hand, the UK has established guidelines and a lot more experience in such cases (not that they always get everything right, either).
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 30, 2016, 10:56:47 AM
Does it all come down now to their intention of going to the ECHR.
If I am correct, they have to pursue all legal possibilities in their country before they do that.
It would be an exceptional point on which the ECHR would overturn any judgement made by the courts of any state which is a member of The Council of Europe. The best they are likely to get is few grand if the ECHR finds the State of Portugal party to unfair treatment of the McCanns in this specific instance. IMO Steel & Morris v The UK is good case look at in terms of duration, grounds and sentence.
If the Supreme Court rule in favour of Amaral that's the end of the line; shell out and go home.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 30, 2016, 11:52:29 AM
It would be an exceptional point on which the ECHR would overturn any judgement made by the courts of any state which is a member of The Council of Europe. The best they are likely to get is few grand if the ECHR finds the State of Portugal party to unfair treatment of the McCanns in this specific instance. IMO Steel & Morris v The UK is good case look at in terms of duration, grounds and sentence.
If the Supreme Court rule in favour of Amaral that's the end of the line; shell out and go home.
I tend to agree, I also think Mrs Duarte will need some pretty strong arguments if she is ever to have any hope of overturning the Appeal Courts decision given its prominence. I have a feeling the Portuguese have spoken and made their views known in the strongest of terms.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2016, 09:05:16 PM
Now the Mail joins the throng.
The Mccanns are getting slated again in the comments and accompanying votes.
Rightly so.
Their act has worn very thin.
Another article in the Mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3616604/Kate-Gerry-McCann-lodge-new-legal-bid-silence-former-detective.html
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2016, 09:57:43 PM
I tend to agree, I also think Mrs Duarte will need some pretty strong arguments if she is ever to have any hope of overturning the Appeal Courts decision given its prominence. I have a feeling the Portuguese have spoken and made their views known in the strongest of terms.
I imagine that if the McCanns took the case to the ECHR, it would be as an appeal against flagrant breach of human rights (that a book accusing them baselessly of dreadful crimes should, nevertheless, be allowed to sell) rather than as a direct appeal against a ruling of the Portuguese courts.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2016, 10:02:02 PM
I imagine that if the McCanns took the case to the ECHR, it would be as an appeal against flagrant breach of human rights (that a book accusing them baselessly of dreadful crimes should, nevertheless, be allowed to sell) rather than as a direct appeal against a ruling of the Portuguese courts.
Total rubbish.
I would love to see them try.
They would get laughed out of court.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 30, 2016, 10:22:04 PM
I imagine that if the McCanns took the case to the ECHR, it would be as an appeal against flagrant breach of human rights (that a book accusing them baselessly of dreadful crimes should, nevertheless, be allowed to sell) rather than as a direct appeal against a ruling of the Portuguese courts.
If the McCanns lose their Supreme Court Appeal and they go to the ECHR it will be them accusing Portugal of denying them their human rights.
If the ECHR finds in favour of the McCanns it will not stop the book being offered for sale.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: slartibartfast on May 30, 2016, 10:30:39 PM
If the McCanns lose their Supreme Court Appeal and they go to the ECHR it will be them accusing Portugal of denying them their human rights.
If the ECHR finds in favour of the McCanns it will not stop the book being offered for sale.
I am far from convinced that taking the case to the echr is the right way to go. This is essentially a civil matter and it is difficult to see what a successful appeal to the echr could bring by way of remedies. But I am a pragmatist.
If the appeal to the Supreme Court is unsuccessful then Maybe the matter should rest there, stump up the costs and move on。taking a case to court is always a risk, and sometimes shit happens.
In the words of WC fields - 'if at first you don't succeed try and try again. Then give up - no point being a damn fool about it'
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on May 31, 2016, 12:31:16 AM
I am far from convinced that taking the case to the echr is the right way to go. This is essentially a civil matter and it is difficult to see what a successful appeal to the echr could bring by way of remedies. But I am a pragmatist.
If the appeal to the Supreme Court is unsuccessful then Maybe the matter should rest there, stump up the costs and move on。taking a case to court is always a risk, and sometimes shit happens.
In the words of WC fields - 'if at first you don't succeed try and try again. Then give up - no point being a damn fool about it'
Hubris
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: xtina on May 31, 2016, 08:34:50 AM
so what was the fund really about ..... [ moderated ]
News from a UK tabloid that the parents of Madeleine McCann are banking on money donated to the Find Madeleine Fund to pursue former PJ policeman Gonçalo Amaral through the courts has caused a major stir on social media - not least because the couple vowed in 2007 that this could never happen.
A report in Sky News said nine years ago that trustees had announced that “Money from the Find Madeleine campaign will not be used to fund Kate and Gerry McCann’s legal costs"..
Sky went on to affirm that the McCanns “had already said they would not use the cash - more than £1 m - to pay any legal bills, even if the trust had let them”.
But according to Jerry Lawton of the Daily Star, this has all now changed.
Forging ahead with an expensive appeal against the decision by three Appellate judges in April to exonerate Amaral (click here), the McCanns are effectively going for broke, explains Lawton.
They have been ordered to pay both their own and Amaral’s court costs, he said, but this will clearly be suspended while their new “legal bid to silence the former detective” is considered by Portugal’s Supreme Court.
“If they lose, the legal bill could wipe out the Find Madeleine Fund set up using public donations to help the search for their daughter”, Lawton warns.
A friend of the couple confirmed the situation, saying the parents from Rothley have been left “exasperated”.
“If they lost a big legal bill to pay”, said the friend - confirming the money would have to “come from the fund set up to find Madeleine”.e there will be
- See more at: http://portugalresident.com/controversy-as-mccanns-%E2%80%9Cuse-find-madeleine-fund%E2%80%9D-to-pursue-former-pj-cop-through-courts#sthash.wToDU8A3.dpuf
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: xtina on May 31, 2016, 09:10:23 AM
.....but at least now we see what the last of the fund money ...will be spent on...
The couple's Portuguese lawyer Isabel Duarte told The Sun that the appeal was sent to the court last Monday. A family source told the newspaper: 'We hope the appeal will be successful. If they lose there will be a big legal bill to pay which will come from the fund set up to find Madeleine. 'When Operation Grange ends Kate and Gerry will have to finance their own private investigation again. They will never give up searching for Madeleine and worry that the continuing legal action could wipe out money they has put aside for this.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3616604/Kate-Gerry-McCann-lodge-new-legal-bid-silence-former-detective.html#ixzz4ADdLpjS3 Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 31, 2016, 09:12:47 AM
.....but at least now we see what the last of the fund money ...will be spent on...
The couple's Portuguese lawyer Isabel Duarte told The Sun that the appeal was sent to the court last Monday. A family source told the newspaper: 'We hope the appeal will be successful. If they lose there will be a big legal bill to pay which will come from the fund set up to find Madeleine. 'When Operation Grange ends Kate and Gerry will have to finance their own private investigation again. They will never give up searching for Madeleine and worry that the continuing legal action could wipe out money they has put aside for this.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3616604/Kate-Gerry-McCann-lodge-new-legal-bid-silence-former-detective.html#ixzz4ADdLpjS3 Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
..and when have the Mccanns used any of the money they have earned from working to pay for their 'expenses', legal or otherwise ?
Yet they seem quite happy to use other peoples donated money.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 31, 2016, 09:14:37 AM
I am far from convinced that taking the case to the echr is the right way to go. This is essentially a civil matter and it is difficult to see what a successful appeal to the echr could bring by way of remedies. But I am a pragmatist.
If the appeal to the Supreme Court is unsuccessful then Maybe the matter should rest there, stump up the costs and move on。taking a case to court is always a risk, and sometimes shit happens.
In the words of WC fields - 'if at first you don't succeed try and try again. Then give up - no point being a damn fool about it'
On that post Jean-Pierre, I totally am in agreement with you.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Benice on May 31, 2016, 09:19:57 AM
As the McCanns and their friends have been ruled out as suspects or persons of interest - then it is perfectly reasonable to believe that Madeleine was removed from 5A (dead or alive)by a stranger.
On the other hand - in nine years not a scrap of evidence that the McCanns or their friends were involved in Madeleine's removal from 5a has emerged.
Therefore to claim that the McCanns knew their daughter could not be found and that an abduction did not happen, as if those were proven facts, is libelous IMO.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 31, 2016, 09:33:47 AM
Please settle down. Cut the silly comments.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 31, 2016, 09:38:28 AM
As the McCanns and their friends have been ruled out as suspects or persons of interest - then it is perfectly reasonable to believe that Madeleine was removed from 5A (dead or alive)by a stranger.
On the other hand - in nine years not a scrap of evidence that the McCanns or their friends were involved in Madeleine's removal from 5a has emerged.
Therefore to claim that the McCanns knew their daughter could not be found and that an abduction did not happen, as if those were proven facts, is libelous IMO.
Not everyone in SY agrees with you on that, in case you are not aware, hence the donations to Amaral.
How Madeleine disappeared from the apartment remains unproven.
Likewise, as to evidence of abduction, what is that exactly ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2016, 12:25:35 PM
As the McCanns and their friends have been ruled out as suspects or persons of interest - then it is perfectly reasonable to believe that Madeleine was removed from 5A (dead or alive)by a stranger.
On the other hand - in nine years not a scrap of evidence that the McCanns or their friends were involved in Madeleine's removal from 5a has emerged.
Therefore to claim that the McCanns knew their daughter could not be found and that an abduction did not happen, as if those were proven facts, is libelous IMO.
Amaral's conclusions in his book match the conclusions of the PJ investigation as at September 2007. Full stop. It was his story of the investigation and it's conclusions during the time he worked on it. His conclusions were the same as the conclusions in the files as at September 2007.
Anything which has happened or been said since is irrelevant. It has to be judged in light of what the situation was then, not what it is now.
Having said that, of course, he could be right, they could be right, Mark Williams-Thomas could be right or they could all be wrong.
The legal question came down to whether his right to free speech is greater than the McCann's right to a good reputation.
The judge in the lower court seemed unable to settle this matter without referring to his former job. It was only by saying that his situation as an ex policeman prevented him from expressing his opinion that she felt able to rule in favour of the McCanns. The inference being that had he not been an ex policeman she would have reached a different conclusion.
The Appeal judges ruled in favour of Amaral because they rejected the lower judge's conclusion that his situation as an ex policeman affected his right to speak freely.
If the Supreme Court rules on points of law only they will decide between the two decisions above. The question being are there legal constraints affecting ex policemen's rights to speak freely or not?
I don't know if new legal questions can be raised on appeal or not, but I don't think the proved and unproved facts will be reconsidered.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 31, 2016, 12:40:05 PM
Amaral's conclusions in his book match the conclusions of the PJ investigation as at September 2007. Full stop. It was his story of the investigation and it's conclusions during the time he worked on it. His conclusions were the same as the conclusions in the files as at September 2007.
Anything which has happened or been said since is irrelevant. It has to be judged in light of what the situation was then, not what it is now.
Having said that, of course, he could be right, they could be right, Mark Williams-Thomas could be right or they could all be wrong.
The legal question came down to whether his right to free speech is greater than the McCann's right to a good reputation.
The judge in the lower court seemed unable to settle this matter without referring to his former job. It was only by saying that his situation as an ex policeman prevented him from expressing his opinion that she felt able to rule in favour of the McCanns. The inference being that had he not been an ex policeman she would have reached a different conclusion.
The Appeal judges ruled in favour of Amaral because they rejected the lower judge's conclusion that his situation as an ex policeman affected his right to speak freely.
If the Supreme Court rules on points of law only they will decide between the two decisions above. The question being are there legal constraints affecting ex policemen's rights to speak freely or not?
I don't know if new legal questions can be raised on appeal or not, but I don't think the proved and unproved facts will be reconsidered.
amaral could not be right calpol is not a sedative no child can die from a fall off a sofa
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 31, 2016, 12:50:12 PM
Amaral's conclusions in his book match the conclusions of the PJ investigation as at September 2007. Full stop. It was his story of the investigation and it's conclusions during the time he worked on it. His conclusions were the same as the conclusions in the files as at September 2007.
Anything which has happened or been said since is irrelevant. It has to be judged in light of what the situation was then, not what it is now.
Having said that, of course, he could be right, they could be right, Mark Williams-Thomas could be right or they could all be wrong.
The legal question came down to whether his right to free speech is greater than the McCann's right to a good reputation.
The judge in the lower court seemed unable to settle this matter without referring to his former job. It was only by saying that his situation as an ex policeman prevented him from expressing his opinion that she felt able to rule in favour of the McCanns. The inference being that had he not been an ex policeman she would have reached a different conclusion.
The Appeal judges ruled in favour of Amaral because they rejected the lower judge's conclusion that his situation as an ex policeman affected his right to speak freely.
If the Supreme Court rules on points of law only they will decide between the two decisions above. The question being are there legal constraints affecting ex policemen's rights to speak freely or not?
I don't know if new legal questions can be raised on appeal or not, but I don't think the proved and unproved facts will be reconsidered.
What about the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty? It seems to me that Amaral rode roughshod over that right in his books and TV progs by openly claiming that the McCanns were guilty. Something which the court has ignored IMO.
I've long since given up trying to make sense of the PT legal system - as it doesn't appear to acknowledge that fundamental right of all citizens in a democracy to be treated as innocent untill proven guilty before anything else, including free speech.
It seems to me that in PT Free Speech is in danger of being used as an excuse for behaviour that should not be deemed to be acceptable in a fair society.
AIMHO
Must go out now.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2016, 02:05:19 PM
What about the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty? It seems to me that Amaral rode roughshod over that right in his books and TV progs by openly claiming that the McCanns were guilty. Something which the court has ignored IMO.
I've long since given up trying to make sense of the PT legal system - as it doesn't appear to acknowledge that fundamental right of all citizens in a democracy to be treated as innocent untill proven guilty before anything else, including free speech.
It seems to me that in PT Free Speech is in danger of being used as an excuse for behaviour that should not be deemed to be acceptable in a fair society.
AIMHO
Must go out now.
How can all citizens be presumed innocent until proved guilty? As soon as the police develop suspicions about someone they've breached that human right, haven't they? Not to mention interviewing and arresting them. The police might not speak out and say we think they're guilty, but it's quite clear by their actions. It was quite clear when the investigation declared the McCanns arguidos what the PJ were thinking.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2016, 02:14:02 PM
According to Amaral Harrison switched the enquiry into one for a little girl assumed dead, which is simply not true.
Harrison was handed a brief, by the PJ, to investigate that Madeleine had been murdered and worked to it.
Amaral mangles and misrepresents the work of Harrison and (I've said all this before, but I'll repeat it) lies that he corrected and contradicted Stuart Prior on interpretation of the forensic results, or that Stuart Prior rang the PJ to berate them on the subject of the PJ's powers of arrest.
Certainly by English libel law (don't know about Portuguese) Amaral libels the McCanns by saying (in an interview) no one talked about murder. That was a lie that broached the idea of murder (to buttressed Amaral's own theory, entirely unique to him, and perhaps Almeida, that the McCanns killed Madeleine involuntarily with an overodose of Calpol, then hid her body and orchestrated a cover-up).
No one else thought that.
I think the basis of this, latest, ruling is that Amaral (is not) being held accountable for the leaks on his watch, released his book for sale after he quit the PJ, and therefore inhabits a libel-free zone brought about by the co-emergence of Kate's book.
Anything goes.
Including the lies that lower reputation copiously served up in Amaral's book.
Unfortunately ....
The part you underlined is what the investigation said, ferryman, whether you agree or not;
From everything that was exposed from the AUTOS, we conclude that:
A) The minor Madeleine McCann died in the apartment 5A of the Ocean Club resort, on the night of May 3rd of 2007;
B) It was performed a simulation of kidnapping;
C) In order to avoid the death [alarm] of the minor before 22H00, it was created a situation of the children's surveillance by the McCann while the children slept;
D) Kate McCann and Gerald McCann are involved in the occultation of the cadaver of their child Madeleine McCann;
E) At this moment, there seems that there aren't strong indicia that the death of the minor didn't happen due to a tragic accident;
F) From what was obtained until now, everything points out that the McCann, as self-defence, didn't want to deliver immediately and voluntarily the cadaver, existing a strong possibility that the same was transported from the initial place of deposition. This situation is susceptible to raise questions about the circumstances under which the death of the minor occurred. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm 10th Sept 2007
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on May 31, 2016, 02:31:33 PM
Is there any good reason why we should be taking cognisance of an interim report full of the inaccurate conclusions of the team which botched the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance from a convicted torturer? http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2140.0
There is a final report containing the conclusion of a competent PJ team that neither of the Drs McCann or Mr Murat had any locus in whatever it was that happened to Madeleine.
I would consider that the continued disingenuous smearing of Madeleine's parents quoting out of date and discounted information while ignoring the more up to date report amounts to libelling those parents ... if not in Portugal, most certainly in Britain.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: faithlilly on May 31, 2016, 03:52:04 PM
Is there any good reason why we should be taking cognisance of an interim report full of the inaccurate conclusions of the team which botched the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance from a convicted torturer? http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2140.0
There is a final report containing the conclusion of a competent PJ team that neither of the Drs McCann or Mr Murat had any locus in whatever it was that happened to Madeleine.
I would consider that the continued disingenuous smearing of Madeleine's parents quoting out of date and discounted information while ignoring the more up to date report amounts to libelling those parents ... if not in Portugal, most certainly in Britain.
Convicted torturer ? Come, come Brietta you know better than that.
As to the competent PJ team was that the same team who requested that the McCanns and their friends come back to carry out a reconstitution ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 31, 2016, 04:09:28 PM
Wasn't it just a slight misunderstanding over some paperwork? @)(++(*
You know that, I know that, the court has recorded that ,any one who read the paperwork knows that but there are always those who think it was something different. It is known as The Cristovao [Columbo] Syndrome. Where: when one starts out one does not know where one is going, when one arrives one does not know where one is, when one comes back one does not know where one has been and for the rest of ones life one swears it was somewhere else.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 31, 2016, 04:20:26 PM
You know that, I know that, the court has recorded that ,any one who read the paperwork knows that but there are always those who think it was something different. It is known as The Cristovao [Columbo] Syndrome. Where: when one starts out one does not know where one is going, when one arrives one does not know where one is, when one comes back one does not know where one has been and for the rest of ones life one swears it was somewhere else.
You are talking about the wrong convicted criminal
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 31, 2016, 04:23:56 PM
Phew, that's a change - its usually Amaral getting slagged off for these things @)(++(*
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 31, 2016, 04:33:49 PM
Here is a blow-by-blow account of the events in the courtroom courtesy of Sky’s Jon di Paolo: snip> 2:09: The McCanns’ lawyer is rebuked for saying de Almeida was accused of torturing suspects – he was never charged. < snip
any offers?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: misty on May 31, 2016, 04:44:00 PM
Here is a blow-by-blow account of the events in the courtroom courtesy of Sky’s Jon di Paolo: snip> 2:09: The McCanns’ lawyer is rebuked for saying de Almeida was accused of torturing suspects – he was never charged. < snip
Two inspectors PJ convicted of torture Lawyer shows the victim was relieved by the end of a process that has dragged on for 13 years. "From what I understand, it is the first time that such a process leads to the conviction of persons in concrete," says the Express.
Two chief inspectors of the PJ were sentenced today to prison terms of two and a half years, suspended upon payment of a fine in that monthly period, for having tortured a man DCCB's premises in March 2000. Another element of PJ was acquitted.
In a judgment with about 40 pages, the Lisbon Criminal Court sentenced the two chief inspectors of the Judicial Police to pay each month, each, the sum of 80 euros for a fund that will ultimately accrue to the victim, Virgolino Borges, who was assistant in the process. The decision was known in 3. ª stick, by 14h30.
Jerónimo Martins, lawyer Virgolino Borges, was relieved by the end of a process that has dragged on for 13 years. "From what I understand, it is the first time that such a process leads to the conviction of persons in concrete," he told Express.
The three inspectors - Diamond José dos Santos, and Antonio Alves da Cunha, were part of the same brigade of the then Central Directorate for Combating Gangsterism (DCCB). In March 2000, Virgolino Borges was taken to the PJ on suspicion of theft (a process that eventually involved). On days 2 and 3, he complained, was beaten repeatedly with a board and punched in the feet by PJ inspectors.
In a first phase investigation, the prosecutor eventually dismiss the case. At that time, consisted Virgolino assistant and requested the opening statement - which culminated in the indictment of three police for the crime of torture, criminal whose frame varies between one and five years in prison.
The two defendants, Diamantino dos Santos de Almeida and Tavares were convicted co-author
The three inspectors Judicial, both now convicted and who was acquitted, all remain active.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 31, 2016, 04:56:46 PM
Two inspectors PJ convicted of torture Lawyer shows the victim was relieved by the end of a process that has dragged on for 13 years. "From what I understand, it is the first time that such a process leads to the conviction of persons in concrete," says the Express.
Two chief inspectors of the PJ were sentenced today to prison terms of two and a half years, suspended upon payment of a fine in that monthly period, for having tortured a man DCCB's premises in March 2000. Another element of PJ was acquitted.
In a judgment with about 40 pages, the Lisbon Criminal Court sentenced the two chief inspectors of the Judicial Police to pay each month, each, the sum of 80 euros for a fund that will ultimately accrue to the victim, Virgolino Borges, who was assistant in the process. The decision was known in 3. ª stick, by 14h30.
Jerónimo Martins, lawyer Virgolino Borges, was relieved by the end of a process that has dragged on for 13 years. "From what I understand, it is the first time that such a process leads to the conviction of persons in concrete," he told Express.
The three inspectors - Diamond José dos Santos, and Antonio Alves da Cunha, were part of the same brigade of the then Central Directorate for Combating Gangsterism (DCCB). In March 2000, Virgolino Borges was taken to the PJ on suspicion of theft (a process that eventually involved). On days 2 and 3, he complained, was beaten repeatedly with a board and punched in the feet by PJ inspectors.
In a first phase investigation, the prosecutor eventually dismiss the case. At that time, consisted Virgolino assistant and requested the opening statement - which culminated in the indictment of three police for the crime of torture, criminal whose frame varies between one and five years in prison.
The two defendants, Diamantino dos Santos de Almeida and Tavares were convicted co-author
The three inspectors Judicial, both now convicted and who was acquitted, all remain active.
Oh right yeah ! Just like us then? https://www.google.co.uk/#q=metropolitan+police+brutality http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/over-3000-police-officers-being-investigated-for-alleged-assault-and-almost-all-of-them-are-still-on-10220091.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-18021317
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2016, 04:58:57 PM
Is there any good reason why we should be taking cognisance of an interim report full of the inaccurate conclusions of the team which botched the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance from a convicted torturer? http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2140.0
There is a final report containing the conclusion of a competent PJ team that neither of the Drs McCann or Mr Murat had any locus in whatever it was that happened to Madeleine.
I would consider that the continued disingenuous smearing of Madeleine's parents quoting out of date and discounted information while ignoring the more up to date report amounts to libelling those parents ... if not in Portugal, most certainly in Britain.
There's a perfectly good reason if you read back Brietta. Amaral's book reached the same conclusions as the interim report written on 10th September 2007.
That's because his book was about his time on the investigation. I don't think it covered what happened after he left, did it?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on May 31, 2016, 05:01:04 PM
Two inspectors PJ convicted of torture Lawyer shows the victim was relieved by the end of a process that has dragged on for 13 years. "From what I understand, it is the first time that such a process leads to the conviction of persons in concrete," says the Express.
Two chief inspectors of the PJ were sentenced today to prison terms of two and a half years, suspended upon payment of a fine in that monthly period, for having tortured a man DCCB's premises in March 2000. Another element of PJ was acquitted.
In a judgment with about 40 pages, the Lisbon Criminal Court sentenced the two chief inspectors of the Judicial Police to pay each month, each, the sum of 80 euros for a fund that will ultimately accrue to the victim, Virgolino Borges, who was assistant in the process. The decision was known in 3. ª stick, by 14h30.
Jerónimo Martins, lawyer Virgolino Borges, was relieved by the end of a process that has dragged on for 13 years. "From what I understand, it is the first time that such a process leads to the conviction of persons in concrete," he told Express.
The three inspectors - Diamond José dos Santos, and Antonio Alves da Cunha, were part of the same brigade of the then Central Directorate for Combating Gangsterism (DCCB). In March 2000, Virgolino Borges was taken to the PJ on suspicion of theft (a process that eventually involved). On days 2 and 3, he complained, was beaten repeatedly with a board and punched in the feet by PJ inspectors.
In a first phase investigation, the prosecutor eventually dismiss the case. At that time, consisted Virgolino assistant and requested the opening statement - which culminated in the indictment of three police for the crime of torture, criminal whose frame varies between one and five years in prison.
The two defendants, Diamantino dos Santos de Almeida and Tavares were convicted co-author
The three inspectors Judicial, both now convicted and who was acquitted, all remain active.
Three points of interest, Misty; as far as the victim's lawyer was concerned this was a first for a conviction of this kind, quite remarkable given Amnesty International Reports on torture while in police custody.
The event happened in 2000.
After conviction ... the guilty pair returned to work as senior police officers as if no heinous crime had been committed by them.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on May 31, 2016, 05:09:54 PM
There's a perfectly good reason if you read back Brietta. Amaral's book reached the same conclusions as the interim report written on 10th September 2007.
That's because his book was about his time on the investigation. I don't think it covered what happened after he left, did it?
What happened after he left was that Robert Murat and the Drs McCann were cleared of any involvement in Madeleine's disappearance.
In British law therefore any innuendo to imply otherwise using Mr Amaral's very flawed thesis as a prop could easily be considered as an attempt to defame those against whom Mr Amaral makes what we now know to be erroneous claims. Something which has been apparent since Madeleine's case was shelved in 2008.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2016, 05:27:34 PM
What happened after he left was that Robert Murat and the Drs McCann were cleared of any involvement in Madeleine's disappearance.
In British law therefore any innuendo to imply otherwise using Mr Amaral's very flawed thesis as a prop could easily be considered as an attempt to defame those against whom Mr Amaral makes what we now know to be erroneous claims. Something which has been apparent since Madeleine's case was shelved in 2008.
I was replying to a member who thinks the book differed significantly from the investigation. My point is that it matches the investigation findings at the time, which is pretty much what the first judge said.
I'm not discussing 2008, I'm implying nothing, I'm pointing out that those were the thoughts of the investigation at the time when he was removed from it.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 31, 2016, 05:50:52 PM
Three points of interest, Misty; as far as the victim's lawyer was concerned this was a first for a conviction of this kind, quite remarkable given Amnesty International Reports on torture while in police custody.
The event happened in 2000.
After conviction ... the guilty pair returned to work as senior police officers as if no heinous crime had been committed by them.
Is your objection to police brutality or just to police brutality in Portugal? Just so we can work out your terms of reference.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 31, 2016, 06:06:22 PM
Is your objection to police brutality or just to police brutality in Portugal? Just so we can work out your terms of reference.
you want to excuse what happened in portugal by saying police brutality happens in other countries. Portugal appears worse because.... have you ever seen an accused appearing in court in the UK as badly beaten as cipriano with the police making the excuse...she fell down the stairs. It seems the PJ didn't care who saw the injuries because they were so confident they would get away with it...and they did
Then we have almeida....took 12 years to finally convict him...and he is allowed to carry on working...
Both cases attracting the interest of Amnesty
Thats why I think things are worse in portugal although i don't condone police brutality anywhere
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 31, 2016, 06:19:31 PM
you want to excuse what happened in portugal by saying police brutality happens in other countries. Portugal appears worse because.... have you ever seen an accused appearing in court in the UK as badly beaten as cipriano with the police making the excuse...she fell down the stairs. It seems the PJ didn't care who saw the injuries because they were so confident they would get away with it...and they did
Then we have almeida....took 12 years to finally convict him...and he is allowed to carry on working...
Both cases attracting the interest of Amnesty
Thats why I think things are worse in portugal although i don't condone police brutality anywhere
Your research is incomplete. That aside, considering the McCanns were not subjected to police brutality I fail to understand the obsession some have with it.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 31, 2016, 06:20:34 PM
Your research is incomplete. That aside, considering the McCanns were not subjected to police brutality I fail to understand the obsession some have with it.
It is the implication that is there, and clutching at straws.
BTW, this post is not goading.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on May 31, 2016, 06:21:31 PM
Your research is incomplete. That aside, considering the McCanns were not subjected to police brutality I fail to understand the obsession some have with it.
It's because it's a cardboard tube, with which they can attempt to beat Amaral.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2016, 09:24:15 PM
Sorry if this has been posted;
Posted by PORTUGALPRESS on May 30, 2016 Controversy as McCanns “use Find Madeleine Fund” to pursue former PJ cop through courts
News from a UK tabloid that the parents of Madeleine McCann are banking on money donated to the Find Madeleine Fund to pursue former PJ policeman Gonçalo Amaral through the courts has caused a major stir on social media - not least because the couple vowed in 2007 that this could never happen.
A report in Sky News said nine years ago that trustees had announced that “Money from the Find Madeleine campaign will not be used to fund Kate and Gerry McCann’s legal costs"..
Sky went on to affirm that the McCanns “had already said they would not use the cash - more than £1 m - to pay any legal bills, even if the trust had let them”.
But according to Jerry Lawton of the Daily Star, this has all now changed.
Forging ahead with an expensive appeal against the decision by three Appellate judges in April to exonerate Amaral (click here), the McCanns are effectively going for broke, explains Lawton.
They have been ordered to pay both their own and Amaral’s court costs, he said, but this will clearly be suspended while their new “legal bid to silence the former detective” is considered by Portugal’s Supreme Court.
“If they lose, the legal bill could wipe out the Find Madeleine Fund set up using public donations to help the search for their daughter”, Lawton warns.
A friend of the couple confirmed the situation, saying the parents from Rothley have been left “exasperated”.
“If they lose there will be a big legal bill to pay”, said the friend - confirming the money would have to “come from the fund set up to find Madeleine”.
Commentators who feel the coordinator of the original police investigation was well within his rights to freedom of expression to pen his damning book “Maddie: A Verdade da Mentira (The Truth of the Lie)” are beside themselves.
Retweeting the link to Lawton’s story, the consensus on social media is that the couple is prepared to use money that was not donated to fund court battles.
“This is misuse of funds”, a source writing into the Resident has complained.
Even though Amaral’s defence has been funded by donations (click here), the source said this was very different to the situation of the McCanns.
“The difference is that Amaral’s money was donated specifically for his legal costs and for no other purpose”, said the source.
“The Madeleine Fund is specifically for the search for Madeleine, and the directors said at one point that it could not be used for legal expenses”.
Former trustee and one-time GMTV presenter Esther McVey - who only a few months later resigned from the Fund and went on to become a Conservative MP - said the decision was taken despite the fact that “it would be legally permissible to use the money for a legal defence”.
There was a “spirit which underlies the generous donations to Madeleine’s fund”, she explained in 2007, and it was this spirit that trustees had the “responsibility to steer”.
The row is exacerbating an already difficult time for the McCanns: an ‘old chestnut’ from the past, South African Stephen Birch has resurfaced on social media to launch a crowd-funding appeal to buy the Praia da Luz home where, he claims, Madeleine’s remains lie buried under the driveway. http://portugalresident.com/controversy-as-mccanns-%E2%80%9Cuse-find-madeleine-fund%E2%80%9D-to-pursue-former-pj-cop-through-courts
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 31, 2016, 09:27:34 PM
Posted by PORTUGALPRESS on May 30, 2016 Controversy as McCanns “use Find Madeleine Fund” to pursue former PJ cop through courts
News from a UK tabloid that the parents of Madeleine McCann are banking on money donated to the Find Madeleine Fund to pursue former PJ policeman Gonçalo Amaral through the courts has caused a major stir on social media - not least because the couple vowed in 2007 that this could never happen.
A report in Sky News said nine years ago that trustees had announced that “Money from the Find Madeleine campaign will not be used to fund Kate and Gerry McCann’s legal costs"..
Sky went on to affirm that the McCanns “had already said they would not use the cash - more than £1 m - to pay any legal bills, even if the trust had let them”.
But according to Jerry Lawton of the Daily Star, this has all now changed.
Forging ahead with an expensive appeal against the decision by three Appellate judges in April to exonerate Amaral (click here), the McCanns are effectively going for broke, explains Lawton.
They have been ordered to pay both their own and Amaral’s court costs, he said, but this will clearly be suspended while their new “legal bid to silence the former detective” is considered by Portugal’s Supreme Court.
“If they lose, the legal bill could wipe out the Find Madeleine Fund set up using public donations to help the search for their daughter”, Lawton warns.
A friend of the couple confirmed the situation, saying the parents from Rothley have been left “exasperated”.
“If they lose there will be a big legal bill to pay”, said the friend - confirming the money would have to “come from the fund set up to find Madeleine”.
Commentators who feel the coordinator of the original police investigation was well within his rights to freedom of expression to pen his damning book “Maddie: A Verdade da Mentira (The Truth of the Lie)” are beside themselves.
Retweeting the link to Lawton’s story, the consensus on social media is that the couple is prepared to use money that was not donated to fund court battles.
“This is misuse of funds”, a source writing into the Resident has complained.
Even though Amaral’s defence has been funded by donations (click here), the source said this was very different to the situation of the McCanns.
“The difference is that Amaral’s money was donated specifically for his legal costs and for no other purpose”, said the source.
“The Madeleine Fund is specifically for the search for Madeleine, and the directors said at one point that it could not be used for legal expenses”.
Former trustee and one-time GMTV presenter Esther McVey - who only a few months later resigned from the Fund and went on to become a Conservative MP - said the decision was taken despite the fact that “it would be legally permissible to use the money for a legal defence”.
There was a “spirit which underlies the generous donations to Madeleine’s fund”, she explained in 2007, and it was this spirit that trustees had the “responsibility to steer”.
The row is exacerbating an already difficult time for the McCanns: an ‘old chestnut’ from the past, South African Stephen Birch has resurfaced on social media to launch a crowd-funding appeal to buy the Praia da Luz home where, he claims, Madeleine’s remains lie buried under the driveway. http://portugalresident.com/controversy-as-mccanns-%E2%80%9Cuse-find-madeleine-fund%E2%80%9D-to-pursue-former-pj-cop-through-courts
The McCanns have put a lot of their own money into the fund
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on May 31, 2016, 09:33:32 PM
Yes money they could have kept for themselves... Money from the book Also money from the other tapas But money they chose to put into the fund
By doing so it is now fund money and can only be used for fund-approved purposes.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on May 31, 2016, 09:39:00 PM
Seems The Independent is a bit confused...
Madeleine McCann: Kate and Gerry McCann appeal against former detective who claims they covered up Madeleine's death Decision for former detective Goncalo Amaral to pay McCanns £380,000 in damages overturned in supreme court.
IIRC he said he is going to sue the McCanns and their friends. What he didn't mention were the grounds on which he planned to do that.
Any ideas?
Why should he? Did the mccanns inform anyone in 2009 that they were in portugal for lawyer meetings and writ issuing? No, they made a press conference and said their visit was to "further the search" kates words
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on June 02, 2016, 08:03:17 AM
Why should he? Did the mccanns inform anyone in 2009 that they were in portugal for lawyer meetings and writ issuing? No, they made a press conference and said their visit was to "further the search" kates words
They had been uneasy about Amaral ever since his book was published and consulted their UK lawyers about it. Eventually they spoke to Isabel Duarte in November 2008 by phone. Six weeks later Gerry met with her in Lisbon. Apparently Amaral's documentary, shown on 13th April 2009 was the last straw and they took the decision on 20th April, with Duarte, to sue him; meeting with her on 12th May, Madeleine's birthday. Was this interview in May? I think the search is mentioned so much because Amaral's activities were seen as hampering it, particularly in Portugal. Info from 'Madeleine' Kate McCann
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 02, 2016, 05:07:41 PM
Have you read the PJ report from 10 September 2007?
A report by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida to the Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation (Goncalo Amaral)
From everything that was exposed from the AUTOS, we conclude that:
A) The minor Madeleine McCann died in the apartment 5A of the Ocean Club resort, on the night of May 3rd of 2007;
B) It was performed a simulation of kidnapping;
C) In order to avoid the death [alarm] of the minor before 22H00, it was created a situation of the children's surveillance by the McCann while the children slept;
D) Kate McCann and Gerald McCann are involved in the occultation of the cadaver of their child Madeleine McCann;
E) At this moment, there seems that there aren't strong indicia that the death of the minor didn't happen due to a tragic accident;
F) From what was obtained until now, everything points out that the McCann, as self-defence, didn't want to deliver immediately and voluntarily the cadaver, existing a strong possibility that the same was transported from the initial place of deposition. This situation is susceptible to raise questions about the circumstances under which the death of the minor occurred.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2016, 05:42:29 PM
From everything that was exposed from the AUTOS, we conclude that:
A) The minor Madeleine McCann died in the apartment 5A of the Ocean Club resort, on the night of May 3rd of 2007;
B) It was performed a simulation of kidnapping;
C) In order to avoid the death [alarm] of the minor before 22H00, it was created a situation of the children's surveillance by the McCann while the children slept;
D) Kate McCann and Gerald McCann are involved in the occultation of the cadaver of their child Madeleine McCann;
E) At this moment, there seems that there aren't strong indicia that the death of the minor didn't happen due to a tragic accident;
F) From what was obtained until now, everything points out that the McCann, as self-defence, didn't want to deliver immediately and voluntarily the cadaver, existing a strong possibility that the same was transported from the initial place of deposition. This situation is susceptible to raise questions about the circumstances under which the death of the minor occurred.
Have you read the PJ final report?
And the Prosecutor's archiving dispatch?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2016, 05:53:32 PM
One of the points about English libel law (the newly-introduced defence of 'honest comment' notwithstanding) is that untruths (which lower reputation, and therefore count as libel) can be implicit as well as explicit.
You can say (without committing libel) that Colin Stagg stood trial for the murder of Rachel Nickel. But you must add that, at his trial, he was acquitted.
Otherwise you commit libel.
This (latest) ruling by the Portuguese court tends to suggest the same rules don't apply (in Portugal).
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2016, 06:00:01 PM
From everything that was exposed from the AUTOS, we conclude that:
A) The minor Madeleine McCann died in the apartment 5A of the Ocean Club resort, on the night of May 3rd of 2007;
B) It was performed a simulation of kidnapping;
C) In order to avoid the death [alarm] of the minor before 22H00, it was created a situation of the children's surveillance by the McCann while the children slept;
D) Kate McCann and Gerald McCann are involved in the occultation of the cadaver of their child Madeleine McCann;
E) At this moment, there seems that there aren't strong indicia that the death of the minor didn't happen due to a tragic accident;
F) From what was obtained until now, everything points out that the McCann, as self-defence, didn't want to deliver immediately and voluntarily the cadaver, existing a strong possibility that the same was transported from the initial place of deposition. This situation is susceptible to raise questions about the circumstances under which the death of the minor occurred.
Quote
I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz. (See my second report entitled “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine”).
(Mark Harrison, penultimate sentence and paragraph of his third, and final, report)
*My emphasis
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2016, 06:30:15 PM
If Amaral can be held accountable (for the leaks on his watch that lower the reputations of the McCanns) proper order in the libel trial should be restored.
Does Portuguese libel law allow for that?
No idea.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on June 02, 2016, 06:42:22 PM
If Amaral can be held accountable (for the leaks on his watch that lower the reputations of the McCanns) proper order in the libel trial should be restored.
Does Portuguese libel law allow for that?
No idea.
Does anyone, other than yourself of course, actually care?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2016, 06:54:28 PM
So you think everything that has /is still / happening to Maddie is Amaral's fault AND the most important issue which you seem to have given a lot of time to is the parents reputation.
The time and effort and money they have given to 'protect' their reputations seem a bit ironic- as in- if only they had spend more time/effort and money protecting their children they would have nothing to worry about. Thought I would just mention that to put things into perspective.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2016, 07:54:19 PM
So you think everything that has /is still / happening to Maddie is Amaral's fault AND the most important issue which you seem to have given a lot of time to is the parents reputation.
The time and effort and money they have given to 'protect' their reputations seem a bit ironic- as in- if only they had spend more time/effort and money protecting their children they would have nothing to worry about. Thought I would just mention that to put things into perspective.
Perspective?
Who is going to look for Madeleine if they think she is dead?
What does Amaral's book say?
There is perspective!
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on June 02, 2016, 08:14:41 PM
Neither of which feature in Ameral's book because his book covers 3rd May 2007 to 10th September 2007. It was the story of his part in the investigation.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on June 02, 2016, 08:17:23 PM
If Amaral can be held accountable (for the leaks on his watch that lower the reputations of the McCanns, and are also lies) proper order in the libel trial should be restored.
Does Portuguese libel law allow for that?
No idea.
The case is now with the Supreme Court. As I understand it that court considers points of law.
It doesn't look at the proved and unproved facts.
It doesn't consider new evidence, which is what you seem to be suggesting.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on June 02, 2016, 08:33:08 PM
Who is going to look for Madeleine if they think she is dead?
What does Amaral's book say?
There is perspective!
Who is looking for her dead or alive? er, two police forces! so anyway provide evidence of people stopped searching- people stopped searching back in early 2007 - because either she was murdered and body well buried or was taken way out of the police radar. The parents and extended family could have searched for her could they not?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on June 02, 2016, 08:51:40 PM
Who is looking for her dead or alive? er, two police forces! so anyway provide evidence of people stopped searching- people stopped searching back in early 2007 - because either she was murdered and body well buried or was taken way out of the police radar. The parents and extended family could have searched for her could they not?
The extended family were not able to search for Madeleine. When they went to Praia da Luz they were too busy lazing around the swimming pool.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 02, 2016, 09:15:24 PM
The extended family were not able to search for Madeleine. When they went to Praia da Luz they were too busy lazing around the swimming pool.
I know they were treated like royalty and started believeing they were hahahaha, IF only the people Knew then what they know now.... out pouring of sympathy for the parents wouod not have been so forthcoming.IMO
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2016, 09:16:17 PM
So you think everything that has /is still / happening to Maddie is Amaral's fault AND the most important issue which you seem to have given a lot of time to is the parents reputation.
The time and effort and money they have given to 'protect' their reputations seem a bit ironic- as in- if only they had spend more time/effort and money protecting their children they would have nothing to worry about. Thought I would just mention that to put things into perspective.
The McCanns' reputation in (sufficient) belief that Madeleine might be alive to keep the public (at large) alert (to the possibility of seeing her) go hand-in-glove.
And if the McCanns ever reach a (final) point (of recognition) that Madeleine must be dead (an intensely private, painful and personal decision for them -- alone -- to reach) then, yes, the reputation of the McCanns (very properly) will become paramount.
The McCanns won't want the pain (of final recognition that their daugher is dead) compounded by [removed comment] (Goncalo Amaral) raking in filthylucre hand-over-fist for proclaiming to the world that theMcCannsdunit.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: jassi on June 02, 2016, 09:20:44 PM
In such an event, their seething would no no bounds.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: carlymichelle on June 02, 2016, 09:21:47 PM
I don't often post public edicts concerning members but on this occasion I am making an exception.
Ferryman, twice in two days you have been moderated and twice you have been allowed to post in the hope you might moderate your language and stop making derogatory and libellous comments. You do not appear to have learned anything from this and continue to post inappropriate comment.
If you don't desist immediately I will impose a week long ban on you.
Admin
his hostility shouldnt be tolerated imo
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Admin on June 02, 2016, 09:33:03 PM
It should be made very clear to all readers that despite ferryman's claims, Goncalo Amaral never at any time alleged that the McCanns had killed Madeleine. If Madeleine did die in 5a, his thesis pointed to accidental death or death by misadventure.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 02, 2016, 09:35:27 PM
It should be made very clear to all readers that despite ferryman's claims, Goncalo Amaral never at any time alleged that the McCanns had killed Madeleine.
That is already known Admin.
Yet the newspapers continue to print the same tripe as some have on here.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 02, 2016, 09:36:58 PM
The McCanns' reputation in (sufficient) belief that Madeleine might be alive to keep the public (at large) alert (to the possibility of seeing her) go hand-in-glove.
And if the McCanns ever reach a (final) point (of recognition) that Madeleine must be dead (an intensely private, painful and personal decision for them -- alone -- to reach) then, yes, the reputation of the McCanns (very properly) will become paramount.
The McCanns won't want the pain (of final recognition that their daughter is dead) compounded by [removed comment] (Goncalo Amaral) raking in filthylucre hand-over-fist for proclaiming to the world that theMcCannsdunit.
Or does it? perhaps the reason is different to what you describe. If Maddie is found dead and her body examined and the truth about her last living moments are revealed all the McCanns PR will not bring back what will be left of their reputation and they know that, hence why they need that 'she is alive mantra going'.
We don't know if the McCannsdunnit or not, because there is no evidence to support most theories, and Amaral has never said they did, it is all about belief at this point in time ,if someone believes the aMcCannsdunnit you can't make them unbelieve it unless you show them evidence. Same goes for people who do not believe they dunnit can be convinced they did anything unless they get evidence . You cannot control belief and the family can stop trying it is a waste of energy and time.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2016, 09:37:36 PM
It should be made very clear to all readers that despite ferryman's claims, Goncalo Amaral never at any time alleged that the McCanns had killed Madeleine. The only possible scenarios alleged by him being accidental death or death by misadventure.
How would you (re)define a child dying following an overdose of calpol (what Amaral accuses them of)?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Admin on June 02, 2016, 09:40:07 PM
Or does it? perhaps the reason is different to what you describe. If Maddie is found dead and her body examined and the truth about her last living moments are revealed all the McCanns PR will not bring back what will be left of their reputation and they know that, hence why they need that 'she is alive mantra going'.
We don't know if the McCannsdunnit or not, because there is no evidence to support most theories, and Amaral has never said they did, it is all about belief at this point in time ,if someone believes the aMcCannsdunnit you can't make them unbelieve it unless you show them evidence. Same goes for people who do not believe they dunnit can be convinced they did anything unless they get evidence . You cannot control belief and the family can stop trying it is a waste of energy and time.
Groundless speculation passes muster (in your opinion).
Not mine.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2016, 09:47:36 PM
To be clear, the (shelved) enquiry accused the McCanns of murder, and Amaral either lied or was incompetent when he claimed that no one talked about murder.
To kill is not (necessarily!) the same as to murder.
To cause death by giving someone an overdose of a drug is to kill.
But only to murder if the overdose is deliberate.
For Amaral to broach the subject (in whatever way you wish to interpret his words) is obscene.
All we know (from the McCanns) is that they took calpol with them on the holiday, and there is nothing to contradict their insistence that they never used it (at least on that holiday).
For Amaral to introduce calpol night (not even on the market at the time of the holiday) is simply obscene.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Admin on June 02, 2016, 09:50:16 PM
To be clear, the (shelved) enquiry accused the McCanns of murder, and Amaral either lied or was incompetent when he claimed that no one talked about murder.
Really? Can you cite the AG comments to that effect please?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2016, 09:51:37 PM
You stated the Archive Report. Mark Harrison's report is NOT the Archive Report.
Quote
This report considers solely the possibility that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body is concealed within the areas previously searched by Police in Zone 1 around Praia Da Luz.
Mark Harrison.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2016, 09:59:50 PM
To be clear, the (shelved) enquiry accused the McCanns of murder, and Amaral either lied or was incompetent when he claimed that no one talked about murder.
You really must makes things clearer in future. The 'Shelved Inquiry' means only one thing here and that is the Archive Report.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2016, 10:11:07 PM
As in the entire written content of the (shelved) files.
Id just like to ask in which report Amaral or anyone else accuses the Mccanns specifically of murder rather than just asking for Harrisons expertise for a murder/body concealment scenario (as opposite to a missing and befell an accident or abduction scenario)
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 02, 2016, 10:31:13 PM
Id just like to ask in which report Amaral or anyone else accuses the Mccanns specifically of murder rather than just asking for Harrisons expertise for a murder/body concealment scenario (as opposite to a missing and befell an accident or abduction scenario)
As far as I can tell, All possible scenarios would have been looked at with the information the PJ were given. If they didn't know about the unlocked door the walked and wandered would not have been given room space for example. It is standard police proceedure to suspect family members and or those who saw the missing person last, they rule them out as they investigate... nothing sinister about that at all.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2016, 10:34:28 PM
Id just like to ask in which report Amaral or anyone else accuses the Mccanns specifically of murder rather than just asking for Harrisons expertise for a murder/body concealment scenario (as opposite to a missing and befell an accident or abduction scenario)
Read Harrison's terms of reference (handed to him by Amaral's boss, the one who later died of cancer).
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on June 02, 2016, 10:39:22 PM
Read Harrison's terms of reference (handed to him by Amaral's boss, the one who later died of cancer).
I have and cant find evidence of what you alledge,(sp?) perhaps a specific quote might help
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2016, 10:39:42 PM
*The authors search review terms of reference were set and agreed with the PJ Algarve regional Director Guilhermino Encarnacao, they were;
Quote
1. Assist the Judicial Police and GNR in assessing new or previous areas searched and give opinion on the best methods and assets to provide assurance as to the absence or presence of M McCann's concealed remains. 2. Act as a "critical friend" to the officer in charge of search planning and management and offer immediate and enduring peer review until case resolution or search suspension. 3. Assist in the development of framework models such as scenario based searching to aid homicide disposal searching. 4. Consider further opportunities or areas for search in order to locate M McCann as applicable to the latest intelligence and information provided. 5. Where appropriate, provide independent and impartial advice on the enabling and disabling factors of specialist resources available either within Portugal or elsewhere in body detection. 6. To assist in decision support where requested by testing and challenging claims made by persons offering unorthodox search methods or devices to aid locating M McCann. 7. Where appropriate and requested, assist in advising on procedures to procure any non Portuguese specialist assets that are deemed to be relevant and useful.
Quote
This report considers solely the possibility that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body is concealed within the areas previously searched by Police in Zone 1 around Praia Da Luz. Other scenarios or possibilities may on request be considered and be subject of a further report.
Is there any evidence Harrison was invited to explore any other scenario?
Quote
I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz. (See my second report entitled “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine”).
Mark Harrison, third and final report.
*To clarify that Encarnacao laid out the terms of reference and Harrison worked to them.
Harrison reached no conclusion of his own.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2016, 10:55:57 PM
Certainly by English libel law, Amaral's statement that no one talked about murder would, in its own right, cook his goose.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2016, 11:03:49 PM
Out of curiosity does anyone, apart from certain idiots elsewhere (to this board) believe that Harrison would have directed a search aimed at looking for Madeleine's concealed remains (somewhere in proximity to the apartment), then concluded that if Madeleine was dead, it was most likely her remains were jettisoned into the sea?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on June 02, 2016, 11:09:09 PM
*The authors search review terms of reference were set and agreed with the PJ Algarve regional Director Guilhermino Encarnacao, they were;
Is there any evidence Harrison was invited to explore any other scenario?
Mark Harrison, third and final report.
*To clarify that Encarnacao laid out the terms of reference and Harrison worked to them.
Harrison reached no conclusion of his own.
What alot of cherrypicked words and sentences to NOT really answer my question. Maybe Im havng a blonde day. Does anyone else see where the Mccanns are "accused of murder" by anyone in a report in which MH hmself had stated that it was a sensible thing to do ie commission hs work/report(cant remember his exact words) considering the time lapsed after disappearance?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2016, 11:15:17 PM
What alot of cherrypicked words and sentences to NOT really answer my question. Maybe Im havng a blonde day. Does anyone else see where the Mccanns are "accused of murder" by anyone in a report in which MH hmself had stated that it was a sensible thing to do ie commission hs work/report(cant remember his exact words) considering the time lapsed after disappearance?
Looks that way ...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on June 02, 2016, 11:16:36 PM
Certainly by English libel law, Amaral's statement that no one talked about murder would, in its own right, cook his goose.
I thnk your goose is cooked myself as it has been pointed out to you over and over that he was not talking about the Mccanns murdering Madeleine....cherrypicking, shortening statements to suit is n gettng you too far FM, you are free to believe and think what you want and attempt to present a case, it just isnt working
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2016, 11:36:38 PM
I have and cant find evidence of what you alledge,(sp?) perhaps a specific quote might help
I don't make any allegations.
I just state facts.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: insider on June 03, 2016, 12:52:39 AM
I am so glad that I have been proved correct in what I posted in June two years ago that I wholly expected the case against Amaral to be thrown out. 8@??)(
eta The McCanns were never murder suspects.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on June 03, 2016, 01:02:11 AM
Ive asked you for a quote for your allegations/facts and you never provided one
You posted sayng the mccnns were made arguidos as murder suspects, I asked you how is this possble if the 10 sept report made no mention of murder but an accident, both have been deleted, must have been yours that prompted it swiping my answer as well, tells you all you need to know, you are posting untruths with no back up,pot kettle
I dont mind ithis post is deleted if true
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on June 03, 2016, 01:05:20 AM
I am so glad that I have been proved correct in what I posted in June two years ago that I wholly expected the case against Amaral to be thrown out. 8@??)(
eta The McCanns were never murder suspects.
It was doomed from day one, i beat you by 4 years ;
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: insider on June 03, 2016, 01:06:04 AM
Ive asked you for a quote for your allegations/facts and you never provided one
You posted sayng the mccnns were made arguidos as murder suspects, I asked you how is this possble if the 10 sept report made no mention of murder but an accident, both have been deleted, must have been yours that prompted it swiping my answer as well, tells you all you need to know, you are posting untruths with no back up,pot kettle
I dont mind ithis post is deleted if true
Ferryman is completely wrong. The PJ wanted Kate to admit to what was basically manslaughter or accidental death. There never was any murder charge.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on June 03, 2016, 01:12:29 AM
They had been uneasy about Amaral ever since his book was published and consulted their UK lawyers about it. Eventually they spoke to Isabel Duarte in November 2008 by phone. Six weeks later Gerry met with her in Lisbon. Apparently Amaral's documentary, shown on 13th April 2009 was the last straw and they took the decision on 20th April, with Duarte, to sue him; meeting with her on 12th May, Madeleine's birthday. Was this interview in May? I think the search is mentioned so much because Amaral's activities were seen as hampering it, particularly in Portugal. Info from 'Madeleine' Kate McCann
Yea more rot, sorry didnt see this post If they were upset they could have asked for far less money You know it wasnt about money they said' so what stopped them for just asking for 1000 euros instead of a million, they were greedy [moderated]
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on June 03, 2016, 10:13:29 AM
I am so glad that I have been proved correct in what I posted in June two years ago that I wholly expected the case against Amaral to be thrown out. 8@??)(
eta The McCanns were never murder suspects.
The McCanns (from the point of imposition of their arguido status) were murder suspects, as the culmination to a murder enquiry.
It's all in the report.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on June 03, 2016, 10:25:18 AM
Yea more rot, sorry didnt see this post If they were upset they could have asked for far less money You know it wasnt abut mney they said' so what stopped yen for just asjing dor 1000 euros instead of a million, they were greedy [moderated]
Demanding €1 million in compensation for something which started out and was intrinsically linked to their own crass lack of parental care and naivety was always going to fail. I'm not in the least surprised the Appeal Court rejected such folly.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on June 03, 2016, 10:30:32 AM
Ive asked you for a quote for your allegations/facts and you never provided one
You posted sayng the mccnns were made arguidos as murder suspects, I asked you how is this possble if the 10 sept report made no mention of murder but an accident, both have been deleted, must have been yours that prompted it swiping my answer as well, tells you all you need to know, you are posting untruths with no back up,pot kettle
I dont mind ithis post is deleted if true
Your inability to understand the cites I have provided is your problem
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 03, 2016, 10:41:39 AM
Demanding €1 million in compensation for something which started out and was intrinsically linked to their own crass lack of parental care and naivety was always going to fail. I'm not in the least surprised the Appeal Court rejected such folly.
doesn't give anyone the right to defame them and in many countries....including the USA they would probably have won the case...and it isnt over yet
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on June 03, 2016, 10:49:05 AM
Demanding €1 million in compensation for something which started out and was intrinsically linked to their own crass lack of parental care and naivety was always going to fail. I'm not in the least surprised the Appeal Court rejected such folly.
IMO the amount sought was because they did not want Amaral to profit by one penny from his book, IMO - In their minds this was the man who not only tried to blame them for their daughter's disappearance, but then went on to make a profit out of those false allegations whilst also encouraging people to believe Madeleine was dead. So a very understandable stance for them to take in those circumstances IMO. I would feel exactly the same.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on June 03, 2016, 10:57:13 AM
IMO the amount sought was because they did not want Amaral to profit by one penny from his book, IMO - In their minds this was the man who not only tried to blame them for their daughter's disappearance, but then went on to make a profit out of those allegations whilst also encouraging people to believe Madeleine was dead. So a very understandable stance for them to take in those circumstances IMO. I would feel exactly the same.
I have changed the word frame to blame and removed the word false since to frame someone requires the introduction of false evidence, in addition it is not known yet what is false and what is fact. The Portuguese were entitled to pursue the McCanns and Murat and designate them arguidos on the basis of the evidence before them. That is procedure in the real world.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 03, 2016, 10:58:55 AM
IMO the amount sought was because they did not want Amaral to profit by one penny from his book, IMO - In their minds this was the man who not only tried to blame them for their daughter's disappearance, but then went on to make a profit out of those false allegations whilst also encouraging people to believe Madeleine was dead. So a very understandable stance for them to take in those circumstances IMO. I would feel exactly the same.
IMO, they were seeking revenge and money from a man who was doing his job, just as any other copper would have done.
Have they pursued any other copper with the same views ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 03, 2016, 11:00:14 AM
I have changed the word frame to blame and removed the word false since to frame someone requires the introduction of false evidence, in addition it is not known yet what is false and what is fact. The Portuguese were entitled to pursue the McCanns and Murat and designate them arguidos on the basis of the evidence before them. That is procedure in the real world.
The claim that the dogs proved that someone must have died in 5A is false evidence according to the experts. His book is littered with false evidence - which has been discussed on here recently and shown to be false by comparing them with the files.
e.g. Madeleine did not speak to her parents on the morning of 2nd May which was the morning after Mrs Fenn heard a child crying - it was the day after that - the 3rd May.
A great deal of time is spent on her by people endeavouring to prove the McCanns lied. I don't see why the same cannot be applied to Amaral - as long as it can be backed up.
Anyway - must go out now.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 03, 2016, 11:17:47 AM
The claim that the dogs proved that someone must have died in 5A is false evidence according to the experts. His book is littered with false evidence - which has been discussed on here recently and shown to be false by comparing them with the files.
e.g. Madeleine did not speak to her parents on the morning of 2nd May which was the morning after Mrs Fenn heard a child crying - it was the day after that - the 3rd May.
A great deal of time is spent on her by people endeavouring to prove the McCanns lied. I don't see why the same cannot be applied to Amaral - as long as it can be backed up.
Anyway - must go out now.
The claim has neither been proved or disproved Benice.
You need to remember, SY had no problems in deploying dogs themselves in Portugal, and it is not hard to surmise what they were looking for.
Redwood himself, admitted, Madeline may have not left the apartment alive.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 03, 2016, 11:21:15 AM
Really Stephen? Did they sue Amaral for actions taken while he was employed by the PJ? And while he was doing his job as coordinator of the case?
Sorry, I must have missed that - perhaps you would be kind enough to explain.
As a result of jp.
Now tell me, if they had ignored his book, which would have disappeared into obscurity but for the mccanns actions, court action would never have been necessary.
Other published books have also accused the mccanns as well.
Have the mccanns pursued these people through the courts ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on June 03, 2016, 11:56:14 AM
The claim that the dogs proved that someone must have died in 5A is false evidence according to the experts. His book is littered with false evidence - which has been discussed on here recently and shown to be false by comparing them with the files.
e.g. Madeleine did not speak to her parents on the morning of 2nd May which was the morning after Mrs Fenn heard a child crying - it was the day after that - the 3rd May.
A great deal of time is spent on her by people endeavouring to prove the McCanns lied. I don't see why the same cannot be applied to Amaral - as long as it can be backed up.
Anyway - must go out now.
The Portuguese Police were entitled to form an opinion and pursue enquires based on all the evidence available to them much of which is not in the public domain. People make the mistake of believing that the inquiry was based entirely on the released files, that is a fallacy. One cannot second guess Amaral without knowing all the facts.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on June 03, 2016, 11:59:04 AM
The McCanns (from the point of imposition of their arguido status) were murder suspects, as the culmination to a murder enquiry.
It's all in the report.
I don't know why you continue to infer this ferryman, the McCanns have never been suspects in any murder. The arguido status was imposed because the Portuguese police and AG suspected them of covering up an accidental death and concealing a cadaver. Harrison's brief related specifically to intruder abduction and murder.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on June 03, 2016, 11:59:31 AM
Now tell me, if they had ignored his book, which would have disappeared into obscurity but for the mccanns actions, court action would never have been necessary.
Other published books have also accused the mccanns as well.
Have the mccanns pursued these people through the courts ?
So they didn't "seek revenge and money from a man who was doing his job, just as any other copper would have done" then.
They sued him because he wrote a book accusing them of being criminals.
It is important to at try to get your facts straight.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 03, 2016, 12:00:30 PM
The Portuguese Police were entitled to form an opinion and pursue enquires based on all the evidence available to them much of which is not in the public domain. People make the mistake of believing that the inquiry was based entirely on the released files, that is a fallacy. One cannot second guess Amaral without knowing all the facts.
it is clear on the same evidence SY do not consider parents suspects...your claim that there is more evidence is pure speculation
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on June 03, 2016, 12:03:51 PM
When you invite a police officer to investigate something you don't define rigid boundaries. Harrison was free to make his own mind up and come to his own conclusions which in the end he did do. The whole idea that Harrison was invited to Portugal to investigate Madeleine's disappearance only on Portuguese terms is ridiculous.
One of the scenarios espoused by him was that Madeleine was abducted, murdered and dumped at sea.
To repeat, the McCanns were designated arguidos on the basis that they were being interviewed in relation to covering up an accidental death and concealing a cadaver. In the end however the police found no evidence to support their suspicions, the Madeleine McCann case remains as much unresolved as it was in 2007.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on June 03, 2016, 12:22:32 PM
it is clear on the same evidence SY do not consider parents suspects...your claim that there is more evidence is pure speculation
Certainly isn't speculation, it is based on my professional experience over many years. Amaral will have seen and heard many things which framed his and his colleagues views on the suspects, the juicy bits in his book are there merely to create impact and stimulate debate.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 03, 2016, 12:23:51 PM
Certainly isn't speculation, it is based on my professional experience over many years. Amaral will have seen and heard many things which framed his and his colleagues views on the suspects, the juicy bits in his book are there merely to create impact.
we know what framed his opinions...the dog alerts and his misunderstanding of the dna evidence..
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on June 03, 2016, 12:32:01 PM
we know what framed his opinions...the dog alerts and his misunderstanding of the dna evidence..
The dog alerts, he said 'don't constitute proof. The laboratory results may constitute proof, but in the end 'it is not enough'. He clearly knew there was no proof. Do policemen forget their suspicions just because they can't prove them? I expect they keep looking for it.
The final questioning had to be done with the McCanns as arguidos because anything they said which was seen as incriminating would have been used against them in court. Witness statements can't be used in that way.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: John on June 03, 2016, 01:09:00 PM
I have changed the word frame to blame and removed the word false since to frame someone requires the introduction of false evidence, in addition it is not known yet what is false and what is fact. The Portuguese were entitled to pursue the McCanns and Murat and designate them arguidos on the basis of the evidence before them. That is procedure in the real world.
This bit intrigues me.
I can understand why the McCanns were made arguidos. If either had looked at the dog 'evidence' or the DNA 'evidence' and blurted out a confession, the PJ would have been on shaky ground unless they were already arguidos.
But Murat? I'm still not seeing any suggestion of criminal activity beyond Lori Campbell thinking he was acting suspiciously. Hmmm - Lori thinks suspicious, plus a late night call to Malinka. What would Murat confess to on the basis of that?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 03, 2016, 05:21:14 PM
I can understand why the McCanns were made arguidos. If either had looked at the dog 'evidence' or the DNA 'evidence' and blurted out a confession, the PJ would have been on shaky ground unless they were already arguidos.
But Murat? I'm still not seeing any suggestion of criminal activity beyond Lori Campbell thinking he was acting suspiciously. Hmmm - Lori thinks suspicious, plus a late night call to Malinka. What would Murat confess to on the basis of that?
This might be blx then again it might not. Lori Wotserface reckoned Murat behaved like Ian Huntley and Clarrie did a tapping the side of his nose routine on that score with a "I can't tell you more but similarities have been observed............." http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.co.uk/2008/07/reasons-why-murat-was-named-arguido.html
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 03, 2016, 05:58:20 PM
This might be blx then again it might not. Lori Wotserface reckoned Murat behaved like Ian Huntley and Clarrie did a tapping the side of his nose routine on that score with a "I can't tell you more but similarities have been observed............." http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.co.uk/2008/07/reasons-why-murat-was-named-arguido.html
For the end of July 2008, it is actually quite a bit better than most I have read.
Was Clarence involved when Murat was made an arguido? I thought CM came later.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on June 03, 2016, 11:44:18 PM
For the end of July 2008, it is actually quite a bit better than most I have read.
Was Clarence involved when Murat was made an arguido? I thought CM came later.
Yes he was, he was still around by 22 may when the mccanns made that press statement where gerry was asked if he knew robert Murat (murat made arguido 14 may iirc)
And heres another link re the clarence/lori thingy
Whilst you were a journalist following the case of Jessica and Holly in Soham. The children were found dead 2 weeks later. Did you predict the same ending to this case?
A: I thought that by this time she would have been found dead or alive, but an ending similar to the case of Jessica and Holly is possible, I don't want to and can't speak about Robert Murat but some of the journalists that worked with me in Soham, and that were recently in Portugal, saw similarities between the case and Robert Murat, more than this I will not say.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id255.html
Ps you can find i nfo by dates in this excellent chronological save of news stories, i think Im going to add it to the reference bit of this forum
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: lordpookles on June 10, 2016, 01:15:22 PM
An interesting tidbit considering some commentators were referring to Portugal as bordering on facisim regarding the latest ruling. Portugal is regarded as one of the 10 countries which is truly at peace. Here's a quote from wiki taken from the GPI(global peace index):
The GPI currently indicates Iceland, Denmark, Austria, Portugal, and New Zealand to be the most peaceful countries and Syria, Afghanistan, South Sudan, Central African Republic and Iraq to be the least peaceful.
Another interesting fact about Portugal is it has decriminalised all drugs and treats addicts as patients rather then criminals - very forward thinking imo. Does beg the question who is the most grown up - the UK or Portugal?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on June 10, 2016, 01:55:14 PM
An interesting tidbit considering some commentators were referring to Portugal as bordering on facisim regarding the latest ruling. Portugal is regarded as one of the 10 countries which is truly at peace. Here's a quote from wiki taken from the GPI(global peace index):
The GPI currently indicates Iceland, Denmark, Austria, Portugal, and New Zealand to be the most peaceful countries and Syria, Afghanistan, South Sudan, Central African Republic and Iraq to be the least peaceful.
Another interesting fact about Portugal is it has decriminalised all drugs and treats addicts as patients rather then criminals - very forward thinking imo. Does beg the question who is the most grown up - the UK or Portugal?
Those are the most peaceful countries based on being "consistently free of conflict zones, political instability and terrorism". It is possible to be both a fascist state and free of all of the above (not saying that Portugal IS Fascist, but just sayin' like).
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: lordpookles on June 10, 2016, 02:14:29 PM
Ahh but political instability is the pertinent point here - if the country was in danger of being a facist state or having facist tendencies this would likely imply political instability imo. I was inclined to agree with you and other posters regarding the ruling but ultimately I think I believe the right to free speech is bigger then any individual. And in this case if for instance said book was published in the UK it would have a lot less power then it does right now as it would be exposed for its weaknesses. As we do not allow publication in any form it is never exposed or contested in the mainstream media.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on June 10, 2016, 02:39:37 PM
Ahh but political instability is the pertinent point here - if the country was in danger of being a racist state or having facist tendencies this would likely imply political instability imo. I was inclined to agree with you and other posters regarding the ruling but ultimately I think I believe the right to free speech is bigger then any individual. And in this case if for instance said book was published in the UK it would have a lot less power then it does right now as it would be exposed for its weaknesses. As we do not allow publication in any form it is never exposed in the mainstream media.
Hmm...well as Austria recently managed to narrowly avoid electing a far right president I tend to disagree with that. the Far Right is certainly on the rise in Austria which I would say is slightly worrying given European history in the last 100 years.
Do you support absolute freedom of speech or do you believe there have to be some restrictions, eg: racist and homophobic language?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: lordpookles on June 10, 2016, 04:07:20 PM
Hmm...well as Austria recently managed to narrowly avoid electing a far right president I tend to disagree with that. the Far Right is certainly on the rise in Austria which I would say is slightly worrying given European history in the last 100 years.
Do you support absolute freedom of speech or do you believe there have to be some restrictions, eg: racist and homophobic language?
True, but how many stable facist governments are there? And far right is not the same as facist I suppose but they are cousins. Regarding freedom of speech we are talking about where the line should be. Let me ask you where do you think it should be. The obvious example being running through a station shouting bomb. I would answer first Alfie but I'm at work...
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alfie on June 10, 2016, 04:19:08 PM
True, but how many stable facist governments are there? And far right is not the same as facist I suppose but they are cousins. Regarding freedom of speech we are talking about where the line should be. Let me ask you where do you think it should be. The obvious example being running through a station shouting bomb. I would answer first Alfie but I'm at work...
LOL, so am I... it's a tricky one, not easy to answer but I would say if you're allowed to write a best-selling book in which you accuse someone who is technically innocent of serious crimes, thereby potentially harming their home and professional lives and general well-being, then in theory you should be allowed to verbally accuse and abuse anyone on the basis of anything at all, including race, sexuality, religion. Can you do so in Portugal? I'm not sure....
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 10, 2016, 04:42:53 PM
LOL, so am I... it's a tricky one, not easy to answer but I would say if you're allowed to write a best-selling book in which you accuse someone who is technically innocent of serious crimes, thereby potentially harming their home and professional lives and general well-being, then in theory you should be allowed to verbally accuse and abuse anyone on the basis of anything at all, including race, sexuality, religion. Can you do so in Portugal? I'm not sure....
Who did that ? One cannot be "technically innocent". One is either innocent full stop. Guilty full stop or "guilty in the eyes of the law".
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on June 10, 2016, 09:04:34 PM
An interesting tidbit considering some commentators were referring to Portugal as bordering on facisim regarding the latest ruling. Portugal is regarded as one of the 10 countries which is truly at peace. Here's a quote from wiki taken from the GPI(global peace index):
The GPI currently indicates Iceland, Denmark, Austria, Portugal, and New Zealand to be the most peaceful countries and Syria, Afghanistan, South Sudan, Central African Republic and Iraq to be the least peaceful.
Another interesting fact about Portugal is it has decriminalised all drugs and treats addicts as patients rather then criminals - very forward thinking imo. Does beg the question who is the most grown up - the UK or Portugal?
It is because Portugal, like several others, USED to be a fascist state decades ago, (it was the fashion then) and the people revolted, that they value thngs like free speech fiercely and rightly so. To call them a fascist state is therefore, a bit like schizophrenic thinking if you see what I mean
The people here with views that Portugal is fascist (when it plainly isnt) because they didnt like the appeal court ruling could be argued a fascist view, what dyou reckon?
Ps there are according to wiki no recognised fascist countries anymore
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on June 11, 2016, 01:06:58 AM
Deleted, double and post in error
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 11, 2016, 06:36:03 PM
You seem to have this thing for 'elites'.
Apart from your opinion, can you back it up with cites ?
Likewise, this constant repetition of the words 'fascist or fascism' by some mccann supporters, is not only pathetic, it is also xenophobic.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 11, 2016, 06:46:12 PM
I think there is no doubt fascist elements still exist within the police force
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 11, 2016, 06:49:52 PM
How do you know there aren't more fascists in the UK than Portugal ?
Perhaps you can cite the proof of there being more in Portugal.
Do the Portuguese have the National Front, the E.D.L., the B.N.P., etc. ?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 11, 2016, 07:12:57 PM
Yeah well I am with Harry Lime on the topic of totalitarianism. For those unfamiliar with the view: "Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The bloody cuckoo clock".
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 11, 2016, 07:19:22 PM
Yeah well I am with Harry Lime on the topic of totalitarianism. For those unfamiliar with the view: "Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The bloody cuckoo clock".
Don't forget the Swiss Bank Accounts either.
Perhaps including those of some of the fascists, Sadie and others are fond of talking about.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Montclair on June 11, 2016, 08:07:53 PM
But they are not in positions of authority as appears to be the case in PT.
You know absolutely NOTHING about Portugal or fascism as it is. Just because you did not agree with a court decision you have decided that Portugal is fascist!! Incredible.
At least in Portugal, when a policeman commits a crime, things are not buried in an internal investigation. There is a criminal investigation and if charged the case goes to a criminal court.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on June 11, 2016, 09:44:24 PM
Yeah well I am with Harry Lime on the topic of totalitarianism. For those unfamiliar with the view: "Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The bloody cuckoo clock".
LOL Maybe its switzerlands answer to the rest of the world, youre all cuckoo with your wars death destruction etc etc
Well, I think a countrys political state might have little to do with its output
The uk has been stable and at peace internally for centuries and we have a very long list of inventors, designers, other great cultural figures
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on June 11, 2016, 11:44:57 PM
You know absolutely NOTHING about Portugal or fascism as it is. Just because you did not agree with a court decision you have decided that Portugal is fascist!! Incredible.
At least in Portugal, when a policeman commits a crime, things are not buried in an internal investigation. There is a criminal investigation and if charged the case goes to a criminal court.
... and if found guilty as charged of the criminal offence said Portuguese policeman appears to have an exceedingly good chance of receiving a custodial sentence which is suspended.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 11, 2016, 11:49:21 PM
You know absolutely NOTHING about Portugal or fascism as it is. Just because you did not agree with a court decision you have decided that Portugal is fascist!! Incredible.
At least in Portugal, when a policeman commits a crime, things are not buried in an internal investigation. There is a criminal investigation and if charged the case goes to a criminal court.
yes commits acrime ...found guilty...suspended sentence and back at work monday as though nothing had happened....could you tell us again how many people convicted of a serious crime in portugal has managed a sucessful appeal...none according to your last answer...the police and judges are never wrong and tahts the remnants of fascism
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on June 11, 2016, 11:51:05 PM
... and if found guilty as charged of the criminal offence said Portuguese policeman appears to have an exceedingly good chance of receiving a custodial sentence which is suspended.
Which doesnt negate their being charged and sentenced, even if suspended, its out there, in the uk alot get away, no charges, and the ones that do get taken to court, often let off, so no different next
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on June 11, 2016, 11:56:07 PM
yes commits acrime ...found guilty...suspended sentence and back at work monday as though nothing had happened....could you tell us again how many people convicted of a serious crime in portugal has managed a sucessful appeal...none according to your last answer...the police and judges are never wrong and tahts the remnants of fascism
Bit like the uk and loads of other countries lol
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on June 12, 2016, 12:06:49 AM
Which doesnt negate their being charged and sentenced, even if suspended, its out there, in the uk alot get away, no charges, and the ones that do get taken to court, often let off, so no different next
You are making unsubstantiated statements ... please provide cites to back up your claim or remove it; thank you.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 12, 2016, 12:09:48 AM
You are making unsubstantiated statements ... please provide cites to back up your claim or remove it; thank you.
I will when the time comes that i can be bothered and proved right to satisfy You, patience is a virtue bretta, attack on outrage at uk police being corrupt is not
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 12, 2016, 12:31:53 AM
It doesnt matter does it? After all youve stuck two fingers up at forum rules saying so previously lol in ?>)()<a post to angelo that it didnt matter if a post was against rules, that very one about tim fenton fraud baldy blog, what a hypocrite
Tata for now
Lol
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on June 12, 2016, 01:53:06 AM
I will when the time comes that i can be bothered and proved right to satisfy You, patience is a virtue bretta, attack on outrage at uk police being corrupt is not
The unsubstantiated allegation you made was " ... in the uk alot get away, no charges, and the ones that do get taken to court, often let off, so no different next" suggesting that British police are above the law.
Like any organisation there are bad apples; surprisingly some who have a criminal conviction are allowed to join up; you have made a generalisation and must substantiate it.
For example, the guy in the following quote should be really quite miffed to discover that as a police officer he should either have had no charges brought or that he should have been let off after going to court, according to your version of events.
**snip The highest-ranked officer to have been convicted in the three-year period was a detective chief superintendent at West Yorkshire Police. He was sacked from the force for gross misconduct last year after admitting driving at nearly twice the legal alcohol limit. He was banned from driving for 12 months and fined £1,000 at his court hearing last year. He had failed a roadside breath test after being stopped by officers and admitted refusing to provide a further specimen. The court hearing was told he drank two pints and then provided a roadside reading of 60 microgrammes of alcohol per 100 millilitres of breath. The legal limit is 35. His lawyer had said Knopwood was under a lot of stress and had great responsibility at the force as the head of the unit responsible for investigating major crimes. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33635962
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on June 12, 2016, 02:03:27 AM
Just seen this on twitter ie that the police still investigating accidental death in the apartment as well as abduction
http://youtu.be/BJXrn6M_hfQ
It is from that same video around 53 mins (minus the Bernard Hogan stick on )
If true, what does that say about claims the PT authorities have cleared the Mccanns
?
Ps PF, when I play your video the subtitles dont show.
It was just a rumour that the PT authorities had cleared the McCanns, the same as the rumout that they weren't investigating them in their reopened investigation. I have asked for cites for the second statement and got one newspaper article.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 26, 2016, 10:28:48 AM
It was just a rumour that the PT authorities had cleared the McCanns, the same as the rumout that they weren't investigating them in their reopened investigation. I have asked for cites for the second statement and got one newspaper article.
The McCanns were not 'cleared'.
They were unjustly accused, and hence had no need of being 'cleared'.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on June 26, 2016, 02:35:38 PM
It was just a rumour that the PT authorities had cleared the McCanns, the same as the rumout that they weren't investigating them in their reopened investigation. I have asked for cites for the second statement and got one newspaper article.
Copying a cite from Brietta... from quite some time ago...
"The Judiciary Police (PJ) reopened the investigation concerning the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and they guarantee that this time the parents of the girl who disappeared in Praia da Luz, Algarve, days before her fourth birthday, on May 3, 2007, are not suspects." DN 25 October 2013 http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/10/pj-creates-new-team-to-investigate.html
Rumour?
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: G-Unit on June 26, 2016, 03:20:29 PM
Copying a cite from Brietta... from quite some time ago...
"The Judiciary Police (PJ) reopened the investigation concerning the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and they guarantee that this time the parents of the girl who disappeared in Praia da Luz, Algarve, days before her fourth birthday, on May 3, 2007, are not suspects." DN 25 October 2013 http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/10/pj-creates-new-team-to-investigate.html
Rumour?
You tell me. It's not a direct quote and doesn't appear in any of the official releases.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Brietta on June 26, 2016, 04:20:57 PM
Copying a cite from Brietta... from quite some time ago...
"The Judiciary Police (PJ) reopened the investigation concerning the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and they guarantee that this time the parents of the girl who disappeared in Praia da Luz, Algarve, days before her fourth birthday, on May 3, 2007, are not suspects." DN 25 October 2013 http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/10/pj-creates-new-team-to-investigate.html
Rumour?
McCann não são suspeitos na nova investigação sobre desaparecimento da filha
McCann are not suspects in the new investigation into his daughter's disappearance
O Ministério Público determinou a reabertura do inquérito sobre o desaparecimento da menina inglesa. A RTP sabe que os pais de Maddie McCann não são considerados suspeitos na nova linha de investigação do caso. A decisão é uma consequência da proposta da Polícia Judiciária e da apresentação de novos indícios que justificam que a investigação prossiga. The prosecutor ordered the reopening of the investigation into the disappearance of British girl . RTP know that the parents of Maddie McCann are not considered suspects in the new line of investigation into the case . The decision is a consequence of the proposal of the Judicial Police and the introduction of new evidence justifying the investigation continues. http://www.rtp.pt/noticias/mundo/mccann-nao-sao-suspeitos-na-nova-investigacao-sobre-desaparecimento-da-filha_v690593
**Snip "The information that was published today by London's Metropolitan Police matches the investigation line that was discovered by the PJ team led by Dr. Helena Monteiro, which was the basis for the request to reopen the inquiry", a PJ source that is connected to this case's investigation told PÚBLICO. And added: "That investigation line was opportunely and simultaneously presented to the Metropolitan Police and to Madeleine McCann's parents, during a meeting last October, at the PJ's headquarters in Lisbon." http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/83march14/Publico_19_03_2014.htm
I'm not sure what I'm missing here, Carana. If Madeleine's parents were not cleared of involvement in her disappearance, why are both SY and the PJ following other lines of inquiry? (I do know that there are those who await the "catchee monkey scenario" with bated breath)
Robert Murat was released from being a suspect in the original investigation into Madeleine's case for the very simple reason there was no evidence which indicated or confirmed his involvement. Which is exactly the circumstance with the McCanns.
The same insinuations are not posted about Robert Murat that are posted about the McCanns for the simple reason they would not be allowed because they are libellous.
As well as being cleared by the Portuguese Attorney General, Madeleine's parents are not, nor were they ever considered suspects by the Portuguese when the investigation was reopened.
The fact that Scotland Yard and the Policia Judicairia met with Madeleine's parents in Lisbon to discuss her case would confirm that for most people.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on June 26, 2016, 05:16:26 PM
McCann não são suspeitos na nova investigação sobre desaparecimento da filha
McCann are not suspects in the new investigation into his daughter's disappearance
O Ministério Público determinou a reabertura do inquérito sobre o desaparecimento da menina inglesa. A RTP sabe que os pais de Maddie McCann não são considerados suspeitos na nova linha de investigação do caso. A decisão é uma consequência da proposta da Polícia Judiciária e da apresentação de novos indícios que justificam que a investigação prossiga. The prosecutor ordered the reopening of the investigation into the disappearance of British girl . RTP know that the parents of Maddie McCann are not considered suspects in the new line of investigation into the case . The decision is a consequence of the proposal of the Judicial Police and the introduction of new evidence justifying the investigation continues. http://www.rtp.pt/noticias/mundo/mccann-nao-sao-suspeitos-na-nova-investigacao-sobre-desaparecimento-da-filha_v690593
**Snip "The information that was published today by London's Metropolitan Police matches the investigation line that was discovered by the PJ team led by Dr. Helena Monteiro, which was the basis for the request to reopen the inquiry", a PJ source that is connected to this case's investigation told PÚBLICO. And added: "That investigation line was opportunely and simultaneously presented to the Metropolitan Police and to Madeleine McCann's parents, during a meeting last October, at the PJ's headquarters in Lisbon." http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/83march14/Publico_19_03_2014.htm
I'm not sure what I'm missing here, Carana. If Madeleine's parents were not cleared of involvement in her disappearance, why are both SY and the PJ following other lines of inquiry? (I do know that there are those who await the "catchee monkey scenario" with bated breath)
Robert Murat was released from being a suspect in the original investigation into Madeleine's case for the very simple reason there was no evidence which indicated or confirmed his involvement. Which is exactly the circumstance with the McCanns.
The same insinuations are not posted about Robert Murat that are posted about the McCanns for the simple reason they would not be allowed because they are libellous.
As well as being cleared by the Portuguese Attorney General, Madeleine's parents are not, nor were they ever considered suspects by the Portuguese when the investigation was reopened.
The fact that Scotland Yard and the Policia Judicairia met with Madeleine's parents in Lisbon to discuss her case would confirm that for most people.
No idea, Brietta.
I posted links a couple of weeks ago to some PT former high-ranking judicial turned tabloid TV couch pundit who'd once said that the McCanns ought to have their arguido status reinstated automatically when the PT investigation reopened.
No one has yet been able to explain why that should be unless the reasons for reopening it had included new or newly discovered evidence against them. Which doesn't appear to be the case.
His name escapes me for the moment. Probably just as well.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: ferryman on June 26, 2016, 05:33:51 PM
I posted links a couple of weeks ago to some PT former high-ranking judicial turned tabloid TV couch pundit who'd once said that the McCanns ought to have their arguido status reinstated automatically when the PT investigation reopened.
No one has yet been able to explain why that should be unless the reasons for reopening it had included new or newly discovered evidence against them. Which doesn't appear to be the case.
His name escapes me for the moment. Probably just as well.
I think that, by the Portuguese penal code as it was once couched, it was indeed the case that where a case was shelved (without conclusion or result) then re-opened, any arguidos (from the shelved enquiry) would have their statuses re-imposed (irrespective of the merit of any evidence against them).
I have an idea that, further back than that, if an investigation was closed without being solved, any arguidos (declared during the course of the investigation) would simply never have their arguido statuses lifted.
But time moves on and regulations governing police practices change (mostly) improve.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 26, 2016, 06:05:45 PM
Copying a cite from Brietta... from quite some time ago...
"The Judiciary Police (PJ) reopened the investigation concerning the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and they guarantee that this time the parents of the girl who disappeared in Praia da Luz, Algarve, days before her fourth birthday, on May 3, 2007, are not suspects." DN 25 October 2013 http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/10/pj-creates-new-team-to-investigate.html
Rumour?
The PJ said the same in August 2007. SY haven't told us what their one line of inquiry is.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on June 26, 2016, 09:47:53 PM
It was just a rumour that the PT authorities had cleared the McCanns, the same as the rumout that they weren't investigating them in their reopened investigation. I have asked for cites for the second statement and got one newspaper article.
I think its possible the situation is confused. Translation of actual meanings notwithstandng as far as I read there is no blanket statement that the Mccanns are not suspect, but the statement was made in relation to particular lines of inquiry If this were not correct then the latest PT documentary man wouldnt be saying from the beginning of the reopened investigation in PT all scenarios were on the table Some of the articles from the time, and tv programmes http://www.mccannfiles.com/id466.html
And of course this is a million miles away from not suspected or cleared etc
The exact same situation applied IMO when Redwood said they were not suspects when he was talking in context of his 40 persons of interest in his particular line of inquiry at the time
Nothng is categorically stated officially on this issue, but people take liberties to interpret what people have said outwith context, then of course we have what police either side have not divulged
Ps PF I got the subtitles now, had to click some arrow on my ipad
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Carana on June 26, 2016, 10:09:33 PM
I think that, by the Portuguese penal code as it was once couched, it was indeed the case that where a case was shelved (without conclusion or result) then re-opened, any arguidos (from the shelved enquiry) would have their statuses re-imposed (irrespective of the merit of any evidence against them).
I have an idea that, further back than that, if an investigation was closed without being solved, any arguidos (declared during the course of the investigation) would simply never have their arguido statuses lifted.
But time moves on and regulations governing police practices change (mostly) improve.
I haven't found anything in the penal code that states that any former arguidos would have that status automatically reinstated should the investigation be reopened.
Of course it would if new evidence had come to light against them... but the PT authorities stated (in a rare press release) that that wasn't the case.
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: mercury on June 26, 2016, 11:55:38 PM
I haven't found anything in the penal code that states that any former arguidos would have that status automatically reinstated should the investigation be reopened.
Of course it would if new evidence had come to light against them... but the PT authorities stated (in a rare press release) that that wasn't the case.
Not being an arguido does not mean you are not being investigated or could be investigated which was the point being made, vis a vis that video PF posted where the presented said that since the reopening all scenarios were being investigated including accidental death
Unless you have some cite that states the parents were not being investigated at all after the reopening whch contradicts what the presenter said
Title: Re: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 04, 2016, 07:29:04 PM
Not being an arguido does not mean you are not being investigated or could be investigated which was the point being made, vis a vis that video PF posted where the presented said that since the reopening all scenarios were being investigated including accidental death
Unless you have some cite that states the parents were not being investigated at all after the reopening whch contradicts what the presenter said
No one knows what has happened to little Maddie- so I doubt very much if the parents have been completely ruled out of all the scenarios presented to the PJ/SY. It is an open investigation,everything is on the table.