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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => The Disappearance of Portuguese youngster Joana Cipriano (8) from the village of Figueira, near Portimão, Algarve, on 12 September 2004. => Topic started by: John on December 10, 2014, 07:22:28 PM
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The mother and uncle of the disappeared girl first came before a magistrate on 24 September 2004, the interrogation lasted through until the following morning. The girls mother confessed to her murder and was remanded in custody while the girls uncle who admitted to disposing of the body was allowed his freedom with conditions.
It should be noted that the torture incident took place Somme time later and had no relevance to these initial confessions. It should also be noted that both Leonor and Joáo had changed their story by the time the case came to trial. In the case of Leonoir Cipriano, her version changed when lawyer Marcos Aragao Correia took over representation from João Grade.
Mother of daughter confesses death by accident!
Several hours of interrogation led to the confession of the crime. First João (John) Cipriano took participation in the concealment of the corpse of his niece, after the mother of Joan admitted responsibility for the murder, committed against a minor, on the night of 12th of this month, at the house where they lived in Figueira.
(http://i.imgur.com/zjaxBkw.jpg?1)
September 26, 2004
By: Jose Carlos Eusebio / John Mendes / MB
An accidental death, claimed the woman before the judge of instruction of the Court of Portimão, Ana Soares, who ordered the arrest of the woman and gave the man his freedom with the obligation to report daily to the authorities.
The coercive measures were only known at approximately 3:00 a.m. yesterday morning, at a time when dozens of local people were still concentrated at the door of the Court (some remained there throughout the day).
According to BBC News, the murdered girl's uncle, João Cipriano, who was the first to be heard by the judge (he had been interrogated since mid-afternoon until 21:30), initially admitted the crime but later, when the statements were recorded in written form, the individual just by pointed his finger at his sister, the mother of Joan.
"It is with my sister" - the phrase was used again and again by the individual, when confronted with issues related to how the murder had taken the child, referring all the explanations in the case to Leonor Cipriano.
João Cipriano only acknowledged that he helped his sister (upon request) to get rid of the body of Joana, after the girl was dead. He insisted that the body was placed in a field close to home, but stressed that he was not sure where, because "it was dark.". However, Joana's mother, Leonor Cipriano, who was heard between 21:30 and about 00:00, came to confess to the murder of her daughter. The woman however justified that it was an accident, saying she had slapped the child but she had struck her head on a wall, becoming unconscious.
Leonor Cipriano said she was bewildered and panicked at the prospect of killing her daughter, decided to wrap the girl's body in a cloth and put her in a plastic bag. She then asked her brother for help to dispose of the body's of her own daughter, which she said came to pass at a site near the house. Like her uncle, the mother of Joana will also use the excuse of the dark, as well as the state of panic that she would find, not knowing where to put her daughter's body. This is indeed the reason given by both to the fact that the clues provided so far to the PJ as to where the body may be proved completely false.
Lately, the mother of Joana gave the impression of being psychologically affected by the case and often "does not say anything to anything," according to the expression used by a source close to the investigation.
After hearing the two suspects, Judge of Criminal retired to decide on the enforcement measures to be applied to the process by recalling the mother and uncle of Joana about 1:30 a.m.. It was then communicated to Leonor Cipriano that she would remain in custody while João Cipriano would be freed on thge basis that he presents himself daily to the authorities (GNR Silves).
www.cmjornal.xl.pt/noticia.aspx?channelid=00000009-0000-0000-0000-000000000009&contentid=00132134-3333-3333-3333-000000132134
NB Original Report removed by Correio da Manhã.
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I have all of the original articles John. In fact I have the full story...almost finished.
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Bumped this thread for davel as he is apparently having some difficulty finding a cite to the effect that both Leonor and João Cipriano initially confessed to involvement in Joana's murder.
This confession predated the beating we hear so much about.
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The mother and uncle of the disappeared girl first came before a magistrate on 24 September 2004, the interrogation lasted through until the following morning. The girls mother confessed to her murder and was remanded in custody while the girls uncle who admitted to disposing of the body was allowed his freedom with conditions.
It should be noted that the torture incident took place Somme time later and had no relevance to these initial confessions. It should also be noted that both Leonor and Joáo had changed their story by the time the case came to trial. In the case of Leonoir Cipriano, her version changed when lawyer Marcos Aragao Correia took over representation from João Grade.
Mother of daughter confesses death by accident!
Several hours of interrogation led to the confession of the crime. First João (John) Cipriano took participation in the concealment of the corpse of his niece, after the mother of Joan admitted responsibility for the murder, committed against a minor, on the night of 12th of this month, at the house where they lived in Figueira.
(http://ySuxjvR.jpg)
September 26, 2004
By: Jose Carlos Eusebio / John Mendes / MB
An accidental death, claimed the woman before the judge of instruction of the Court of Portimão, Ana Soares, who ordered the arrest of the woman and gave the man his freedom with the obligation to report daily to the authorities.
The coercive measures were only known at approximately 3:00 a.m. yesterday morning, at a time when dozens of local people were still concentrated at the door of the Court (some remained there throughout the day).
According to BBC News, the murdered girl's uncle, João Cipriano, who was the first to be heard by the judge (he had been interrogated since mid-afternoon until 21:30), initially admitted the crime but later, when the statements were recorded in written form, the individual just by pointed his finger at his sister, the mother of Joan.
"It is with my sister" - the phrase was used again and again by the individual, when confronted with issues related to how the murder had taken the child, referring all the explanations in the case to Leonor Cipriano.
João Cipriano only acknowledged that he helped his sister (upon request) to get rid of the body of Joana, after the girl was dead. He insisted that the body was placed in a field close to home, but stressed that he was not sure where, because "it was dark.". However, Joana's mother, Leonor Cipriano, who was heard between 21:30 and about 00:00, came to confess to the murder of her daughter. The woman however justified that it was an accident, saying she had slapped the child but she had struck her head on a wall, becoming unconscious.
Leonor Cipriano said she was bewildered and panicked at the prospect of killing her daughter, decided to wrap the girl's body in a cloth and put her in a plastic bag. She then asked her brother for help to dispose of the body's of her own daughter, which she said came to pass at a site near the house. Like her uncle, the mother of Joana will also use the excuse of the dark, as well as the state of panic that she would find, not knowing where to put her daughter's body. This is indeed the reason given by both to the fact that the clues provided so far to the PJ as to where the body may be proved completely false.
Lately, the mother of Joana gave the impression of being psychologically affected by the case and often "does not say anything to anything," according to the expression used by a source close to the investigation.
After hearing the two suspects, Judge of Criminal retired to decide on the enforcement measures to be applied to the process by recalling the mother and uncle of Joana about 1:30 a.m.. It was then communicated to Leonor Cipriano that she would remain in custody while João Cipriano would be freed on thge basis that he presents himself daily to the authorities (GNR Silves).
www.cmjornal.xl.pt/noticia.aspx?channelid=00000009-0000-0000-0000-000000000009&contentid=00132134-3333-3333-3333-000000132134
NB Original Report removed by Correio da Manhã.
first thing I notice is that this article says Cipriano will remain in custody...ie she was already in custody...willl now look a little deeper
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first thing I notice is that this article says Cipriano will remain in custody...ie she was already in custody...willl now look a little deeper
Yes in as much as she was in PJ custody having been charged earlier that day.
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Yes in as much as she was in PJ custody having been charged earlier that day.
Exactly, so hopefully how two years of davels asking has been answered, which also proves he hasnt read all the threads as claimed
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5783.0
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The mother and uncle of the disappeared girl first came before a magistrate on 24 September 2004, the interrogation lasted through until the following morning. The girls mother confessed to her murder and was remanded in custody while the girls uncle who admitted to disposing of the body was allowed his freedom with conditions.
It should be noted that the torture incident took place Somme time later and had no relevance to these initial confessions. It should also be noted that both Leonor and Joáo had changed their story by the time the case came to trial. In the case of Leonoir Cipriano, her version changed when lawyer Marcos Aragao Correia took over representation from João Grade.
Mother of daughter confesses death by accident!
Several hours of interrogation led to the confession of the crime. First João (John) Cipriano took participation in the concealment of the corpse of his niece, after the mother of Joan admitted responsibility for the murder, committed against a minor, on the night of 12th of this month, at the house where they lived in Figueira.
(http://ySuxjvR.jpg)
September 26, 2004
By: Jose Carlos Eusebio / John Mendes / MB
An accidental death, claimed the woman before the judge of instruction of the Court of Portimão, Ana Soares, who ordered the arrest of the woman and gave the man his freedom with the obligation to report daily to the authorities.
The coercive measures were only known at approximately 3:00 a.m. yesterday morning, at a time when dozens of local people were still concentrated at the door of the Court (some remained there throughout the day).
According to BBC News, the murdered girl's uncle, João Cipriano, who was the first to be heard by the judge (he had been interrogated since mid-afternoon until 21:30), initially admitted the crime but later, when the statements were recorded in written form, the individual just by pointed his finger at his sister, the mother of Joan.
"It is with my sister" - the phrase was used again and again by the individual, when confronted with issues related to how the murder had taken the child, referring all the explanations in the case to Leonor Cipriano.
João Cipriano only acknowledged that he helped his sister (upon request) to get rid of the body of Joana, after the girl was dead. He insisted that the body was placed in a field close to home, but stressed that he was not sure where, because "it was dark.". However, Joana's mother, Leonor Cipriano, who was heard between 21:30 and about 00:00, came to confess to the murder of her daughter. The woman however justified that it was an accident, saying she had slapped the child but she had struck her head on a wall, becoming unconscious.
Leonor Cipriano said she was bewildered and panicked at the prospect of killing her daughter, decided to wrap the girl's body in a cloth and put her in a plastic bag. She then asked her brother for help to dispose of the body's of her own daughter, which she said came to pass at a site near the house. Like her uncle, the mother of Joana will also use the excuse of the dark, as well as the state of panic that she would find, not knowing where to put her daughter's body. This is indeed the reason given by both to the fact that the clues provided so far to the PJ as to where the body may be proved completely false.
Lately, the mother of Joana gave the impression of being psychologically affected by the case and often "does not say anything to anything," according to the expression used by a source close to the investigation.
After hearing the two suspects, Judge of Criminal retired to decide on the enforcement measures to be applied to the process by recalling the mother and uncle of Joana about 1:30 a.m.. It was then communicated to Leonor Cipriano that she would remain in custody while João Cipriano would be freed on thge basis that he presents himself daily to the authorities (GNR Silves).
www.cmjornal.xl.pt/noticia.aspx?channelid=00000009-0000-0000-0000-000000000009&contentid=00132134-3333-3333-3333-000000132134
NB Original Report removed by Correio da Manhã.
is this a record of what they said to the Judge or a record of what the PJ claim that they told them. We are told JC first admiited the crime then changed his mind...this has to be a record of his interrogation by the PJ not what he admitted in court.
LC was heard between 21.30 and 00.00..the court didn't listen to her for 2 1/2 hours...this was hers supposed statement to the PJ who we know are far from honourable.
then we have Joanna hitting her head on a wall and dying....those seem to be amaral's favourite words just like Maddie. Children do not hit their heads on walls and die...it's utter rubbish..
so what date was the signed confession?
I don't think this article proves anything...as far both of them forgetting where the body was buried....too daft for words
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is this a record of what they said to the Judge or a record of what the PJ claim that they told them. We are told JC first admiited the crime then changed his mind...this has to be a record of his interrogation by the PJ not what he admitted in court.
LC was heard between 21.30 and 00.00..the court didn't listen to her for 2 1/2 hours...this was hers supposed statement to the PJ who we know are far from honourable.
then we have Joanna hitting her head on a wall and dying....those seem to be amaral's favourite words just like Maddie. Children do not hit their heads on walls and die...it's utter rubbish..
so what date was the signed confession?
I don't think this article proves anything...as far both of them forgetting where the body was buried....too daft for words
You are entitled to your opinion as everyone else is Dave but the facts stand out like a sore thumb. Do you know any other innocent people who admit to having accidentally killed a child then spend days showing the police around areas where her remains were supposedly buried? Not to mention the confessions, the retractions and the blame game.
Innocent people just don't do that in my world. Leonor and John Cipriano were up to their necks in it regardless of who killed Joana.
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You are entitled to your opinion as everyone else is Dave but the facts stand out like a sore thumb. Do you know any other innocent people who admit to having accidentally killed a child then spend days showing the police around areas where her remains were supposedly buried? Not to mention the confessions, the retractions and the blame game.
Innocent people just don't do that in my world. Leonor and John Cipriano were up to their necks in it regardless of who killed Joana.
I don't think they led police anywhere... I think they were forced. Children don't die from banging their heads...that sounds like amaral's idea...why did she get such along sentence if it was an accident
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You are entitled to your opinion as everyone else is Dave but the facts stand out like a sore thumb. Do you know any other innocent people who admit to having accidentally killed a child then spend days showing the police around areas where her remains were supposedly buried? Not to mention the confessions, the retractions and the blame game.
Innocent people just don't do that in my world. Leonor and John Cipriano were up to their necks in it regardless of who killed Joana.
Why would anyone who had confessed then refuse even after torture to say what happened to the body? That makes no sense to me.
The only credible reason IMO is that they didn't know where Joana was - because they hadn't committed the crime - and all the torturing in the world would not change that.
IMO 'suggestions' put to them by the PJ as to where the body was would be agreed to at the time - just to stop the pain being inflicted on them.
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Why would anyone who had confessed then refuse even after torture to say what happened to the body? That makes no sense to me.
The only credible reason IMO is that they didn't know where Joana was - because they hadn't committed the crime - and all the torturing in the world would not change that.
IMO 'suggestions' put to them by the PJ as to where the body was would be agreed to at the time - just to stop the pain being inflicted on them.
You've been watching too much TV. I remind you that both Leonor and João confessed to Leandro of their involvement irrespective of their confessions to police.
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You've been watching too much TV. I remind you that both Leonor and João confessed to Leandro of their involvement irrespective of their confessions to police.
we only have leandros word for that and who knows what threats were made against him.....none of the blood recovered matched joanna's...the trial sounds like a total farce
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we only have leandros word for that and who knows what threats were made against him.....none of the blood recovered matched joanna's...the trial sounds like a total farce
He was interviewed by the local Press, he had no reason to lie.
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Leonor confessed long before she was imprisoned so do try and get some facts right davel. The mild torture she was subjected to in Évora (hit with a cardboard tube) was an attempt to get her to reveal where Joana was, not a need to confess anything.
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Why not wait for thr book, theyre due out soon arent they?
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It never ceases to amaze the excuses which are served up in an attempt to exculpate these two sorry characters. No innocent people of sound mind carry on in the manner in which the Ciprianos did with each taking it in turns to blame the other for the killing of Joana. Only they know what really happend to Joana that night after she returned from an errand to the local shop but they aren't for telling because the reality of the crime is just too dreadful for even them to contemplate.
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It never ceases to amaze the excuses which are served up in an attempt to exculpate these two sorry characters. No innocent people of sound mind carry on in the manner in which the Ciprianos did with each taking it in turns to blame the other for the killing of Joana. Only they know what really happend to Joana that night after she returned from an errand to the local shop but they aren't for telling because the reality of the crime is just too dreadful for even them to contemplate.
I disagree.
It's a possibility that they knew or were involved. So far, ok.
However, aside from interrogations in far from transparent conditions, there is simply nothing of substance as to what actually happened to this little girl, let alone who was responsible.
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It never ceases to amaze the excuses which are served up in an attempt to exculpate these two sorry characters. No innocent people of sound mind carry on in the manner in which the Ciprianos did with each taking it in turns to blame the other for the killing of Joana. Only they know what really happend to Joana that night after she returned from an errand to the local shop but they aren't for telling because the reality of the crime is just too dreadful for even them to contemplate.
Whilst, of course, innocent people of sound mind do carry on the way the PJ did, tying a woman to a chair and beating her to a point of near blindness.
Nothing that (either) Cipriano said should be taken into account in attempts to determine the truth of events, simply because their interrogations were conducted against a backdrop of hostility, intimidation, threat and (ultimately) violence.
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Whilst, of course, innocent people of sound mind do carry on the way the PJ did, tying a woman to a chair and beating her to a point of near blindness.
Nothing that (either) Cipriano said should be taken into account in attempts to determine the truth of events, simply because their interrogations were conducted against a backdrop of hostility, intimidation, threat and (ultimately) violence.
Conveniently you forgot to mention that Leonor's blame game commenced well before she was beaten. In case you can't remember let me refresh your memory. Leonor told the police that she had a falling out with her daughter and had hit her head off a wall in the family home. She also volunteered the information that her brother João then took the deceased girl out the back and hid her.
This version of events is not entirely consistent with innocence or of a stranger abduction for that matter. Regardless of whether this is true or the later story she came up with where Joáo tried to sell the girl and it went badly wrong, Leonor and Joáo are guilty of some involvement. Neither are innocent!
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Conveniently you forgot to mention that Leonor's blame game commenced well before she was beaten. In case you can't remember let me refresh your memory. Leonor told the police that she had a falling out with her daughter and had hit her head off a wall in the family home. She also volunteered the information that her brother João then took the deceased girl out the back and hid her.
This version of events is not entirely consistent with innocence or of a stranger abduction for that matter. Regardless of whether this is true or the later story she came up with where Joáo tried to sell the girl and it went badly wrong, Leonor and Joáo are guilty of some involvement. Neither are innocent!
Joana was only 8 years old when she disappeared yet neither her mother or her uncle bothered to contact the police until the following day. No doubt they were busy destroying the evidence.
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Joana was only 8 years old when she disappeared yet neither her mother or her uncle bothered to contact the police until the following day. No doubt they were busy destroying the evidence.
I believe some excuse was made that she might have gone to stay with friends but that doesn't hold much water to be honest. In any event a local woman saw her heading home with the shopping she had just purchased.
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Joana was only 8 years old when she disappeared yet neither her mother or her uncle bothered to contact the police until the following day. No doubt they were busy destroying the evidence.
They met with a GNR officer that night (AA6) who told her to go to police station in the morning to make an official statement. She and João did go to Portimão police station later in the morning.
A testemunha AA6, militar da GNR, declarou que nessa noite decorria o festival do berbigão na Figueira e que após a chamada da D. NN encontrou-se com a arguida BB, o II e outro indivíduo, junto à igreja, tendo a mãe contado que a CC tinha desaparecido, referindo que a tinha mandado ao café e que a última vez que a menor tinha sido vista tinha sido ali, também junto à igreja. A testemunha disse-lhe que no dia seguinte teria que ir ao Posto em Portimão formalizar a queixa. Declarou ainda a testemunha que a mãe não aparentava muita preocupação para um caso destes.
A testemunha AA7, militar da GNR, referiu que no dia 13 de Setembro de 2004, no Posto da GNR de Portimão, entre as 10h 30m / 11h, recebeu a queixa do desaparecimento da CC. Foi a mãe que fez a queixa, acompanhada do arguido AA. A arguida BB aparentava tristeza, mas não chorou. A testemunha recebeu as fotografias que a mãe levava e perguntou-lhe se havia motivos para a CC fugir de casa ou se tinha algumas desconfianças, a tudo tendo a arguida BB respondido que não.
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Indeed, the GNR officers noted that the mother was not in the least distraught as one would expect the mother of a missing 8-year-old to be in such a situation. The police were certainly far from convinced otherwise they would have commenced a search there aand then.
GNR officer: Pop up to the station in the morning dear if she doesnt turn up!
Aye right!!
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The missing girl's uncle, John Cipriano, once claimed the only difference between them and the McCanns was that the latter had money. I agree, they have more in common when it came to child care than they want to admit.
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Joana was only 8 years old when she disappeared yet neither her mother or her uncle bothered to contact the police until the following day. No doubt they were busy destroying the evidence.
What a biased post Angelo ... and totally incorrect as Caranas post shows. In actual fact, they spoke with a GNR Officer that night, who told her to go to the police station in the morning
[quote from Caranas post]
They met with a GNR officer that night (AA6) who told her to go to police station in the morning to make an official statement. She and João did go to Portimão police station later in the morning.[finish quote]
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What a biased post Angelo ... and totally incorrect as Caranas post shows. In actual fact, they spoke with a GNR Officer that night, who told her to go to the police station in the morning
[quote from Caranas post]
They met with a GNR officer that night (AA6) who told her to go to police station in the morning to make an official statement. She and João did go to Portimão police station later in the morning.[finish quote]
You had children Sadie. If your 8-year-old daughter disappeared one evening after being sent on an errand would you have left her out all night without bothering your head to kick up a fuss. An honest answer would be nice!
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You had children Sadie. If your 8-year-old daughter disappeared one evening after being sent on an errand would you have left her out all night without bothering your head to kick up a fuss. An honest answer would be nice!
Whereas Leonor went home and had cake.
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OK. So you seem to be saying that after X time in the first series of "interviews" that she had never been confronted with the idea of "admittting" to an "accident" with a minor prison term as opposed to being charged with murder?
If you are barely literate, have been subjected to harrowing "interviews", you haven't a clue what's going on aside from the fact that your child is still missing, your pro-bono lawyers keep changing, WTF are you supposed to do?
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OK. So you seem to be saying that after X time in the first series of "interviews" that she had never been confronted with the idea of "admittting" to an "accident" with a minor prison term as opposed to being charged with murder?
If you are barely literate, have been subjected to harrowing "interviews", you haven't a clue what's going on aside from the fact that your child is still missing, your pro-bono lawyers keep changing, WTF are you supposed to do?
Hmm... lets see...tell the truth? ?{)(**
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Hmm... lets see...tell the truth? ?{)(**
I know we disagree, John.
There's no way of knowing whether she was browbeaten into the old bluff that "confessing" to having accidentally killed her in a moment of anger would be far better than being charged with murder: a short sentence, two other young children at home who could stay with their dad, etc.
It may seem illogical for an innocent person to confess to a crime that they haven't committed, but these things happen. The conditions of her interrogation aren't clear at all. How long was she interrogated for that time? Was a lawyer present that entire time, or did she turn up once the "confession" had been extracted?
Was she mistreted during that time? "Roughed up", but chose not to say anything, believing the PJ that "confessing" to the lower charge was the best option? Deprived of sleep and "confessing" just to get the interrogation to stop?
There is the possibility that she really did confess voluntarily, of course. And we all know of cases of child abuse and even murder at the hand of parents, sadly.
However, there doesn't appear to be anything to substantiate it - it wasn't until many years later (after the McCann saga) that there was even a recommendation to audio record arguido interviews, and it's just a recommendation, and not even a video recording. At what point did her status change from being interviewed as a witness (no right at the time to a lawyer) and an arguida?
And then there is the issue that there was no concrete evidence to support what she is alleged to have "confessed" to... Plus the fact that the PJ watchdog had undertaken an investigation and, as a result, undertook disciplinary action against at least one of the officers (if not more, but such details are difficult to come by), and this way before the torture trial concerning a later interrogation.
At the very least, the conviction appears unsafe (IMO) for a whole host of reasons, and that includes public outrage over what the tabloid-reading public assumed were "facts" prior to trial, despite the so-called judicial secrecy, as presented in the pro-PJ tabloids.
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The missing girl's uncle, John Cipriano, once claimed the only difference between them and the McCanns was that the latter had money. I agree, they have more in common when it came to child care than they want to admit.
Are you sure about that, Angelo?
My recollection is that was Leandro who made that comment.
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Are you sure about that, Angelo?
My recollection is that was Leandro who made that comment.
That's correct, it was the missing girl's stepfather Leandro Silva.
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You had children Sadie. If your 8-year-old daughter disappeared one evening after being sent on an errand would you have left her out all night without bothering your head to kick up a fuss. An honest answer would be nice!
I don't live in an isolated village and I have a car, a phone and sufficient money to call a taxi. Leonor had none of these advantages
She also had a couple of babies/toddlers to look after, who she could neither leave nor take with her.
Despite the fact that she hoped that Joana might be staying with her gran or a friend, she must have been worried stiff ... but she did the only thing that was open to her. She looked after her other children... and followed the GNR Officers advice.
She had done the best she could, she had reported it to the Police. Why did you say that she hadn't ?
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I don't live in an isolated village and I have a car, a phone and sufficient money to call a taxi. Leonor had none of these advantages
She also had a couple of babies/toddlers to look after, who she could neither leave nor take with her.
Despite the fact that she hoped that Joana might be staying with her gran or a friend, she must have been worried stiff ... but she did the only thing that was open to her. She looked after her other children... and followed the GNR Officers advice.
She had done the best she could, she had reported it to the Police. Why did you say that she hadn't ?
One simple phone call was all that was required and they couldn't even do that!!
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One simple phone call was all that was required and they couldn't even do that!!
Difficult if you didn't have a phone !
Difficult if you didn't know how to use a phone either.
Angelo, I must make it plain that I don't KNOW the above things, but they almost certainly would not have afforded a phone .... and with Leonors limited education and almost certainly no access to one, it is quite probable that she would not know how to use one.
That is rather like me in the late 40's, early 50's .... and we weren't what you would call poor. Hardly anyone had phones or cars in those days. I can understand where Leonor comes from. Pity you haven't got the sensitivity to understand her dilemma
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She did have a phone, but it was out of credit.
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She did have a phone, but it was out of credit.
Do u need credit to ring anemergency number? Just wondering
Or was she so uneducated she didnt know she could
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Difficult if you didn't have a phone !
Difficult if you didn't know how to use a phone either.
Angelo, I must make it plain that I don't KNOW the above things, but they almost certainly would not have afforded a phone .... and with Leonors limited education and almost certainly no access to one, it is quite probable that she would not know how to use one.
That is rather like me in the late 40's, early 50's .... and we weren't what you would call poor. Hardly anyone had phones or cars in those days. I can understand where Leonor comes from. Pity you haven't got the sensitivity to understand her dilemma
A load of bull Sadie. Your excuses on behalf of that woman never cease to amaze. Even if all the excuses you suggest were true, all she had to do was ask someone. She made no attempt to contact the police...end off!
PS you were wrong about her not having a phone too!!
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Do u need credit to ring anemergency number? Just wondering
Or was she so uneducated she didnt know she could
Good point and very true. 8((()*/
Dialing 112 does not require credit in Portugal. In fact I'm told you don't even need a Sim card and is even now answered in English!
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From what I can gather from the situation, she was more perplexed that evening than anything else.
It does seem as if the bar lady found the situation of more concern (that evening) than Leonor.
On the other hand, Joana had been at a family party and a local fiesta was going on.
Apart from the fact that she hadn't come home, there was no manifest sign that she'd come to harm. Leonor could well have been toying up whether the police should be contacted when bar lady took the initiative.
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From what I can gather from the situation, she was more perplexed that evening than anything else.
It does seem as if the bar lady found the situation of more concern (that evening) than Leonor.
On the other hand, Joana had been at a family party and a local fiesta was going on.
Apart from the fact that she hadn't come home, there was no manifest sign that she'd come to harm. Leonor could well have been toying up whether the police should be contacted when bar lady took the initiative.
She was sent to the shop, she never returned even by midnight. Any normal person would have made inquiries by then but not Leonor and John Cipriano. Only the stepfather Leandro Silva went out looking for her but then he wasn't aware of her fate as the either two were.
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She was sent to the shop, she never returned even by midnight. Any normal person would have made inquiries by then but not Leonor and John Cipriano. Only the stepfather Leandro Silva went out looking for her but then he wasn't aware of her fate as the either two were.
That doesn't appear to be accurate, Angelo.
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I really don't understand why some people are so convinced that Leonor and her brother are truly guilty concerning Joana.
I'm not naive - I do know of some horrible cases in which family members have been responsible for child abuse deaths whiled claiming an abduction.
In this case, I simply can't find anything of substance beyond the so-called confessions under less than limpid conditions.
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I'm not even sure why people don't question the evidence (or rather the lack of it).
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I'm not even sure why people don't question the evidence (or rather the lack of it).
I'll go along with that.
Especially people who believe themselves to have suffered a Miscarriage of Justice.
The imprisonment of Leonor and Joao Cipriana on the charge of having murdered Joana must be one of the most glaring examples of likely Miscarriage of Justice in the last century. IMO
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I'll go along with that.
Especially people who believe themselves to have suffered a Miscarriage of Justice.
The imprisonment of Leonor and Joao Cipriana on the charge of having murdered Joana must be one of the most glaring examples of likely Miscarriage of Justice in the last century. IMO
Every case has to be considered separately. We all know of cases of familal abuse leading to death.
However, I just can't find anything in this case aside from "confessions" in less than lucid circumstances. And I originally assumed that they must have been guilty until I started examining the case more closely.
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I really don't understand why some people are so convinced that Leonor and her brother are truly guilty concerning Joana.
I'm not naive - I do know of some horrible cases in which family members have been responsible for child abuse deaths whiled claiming an abduction.
In this case, I simply can't find anything of substance beyond the so-called confessions under less than limpid conditions.
What about the plethora of changes in testimony and the accusations and counter accusations between the parties?
You going to blame that on no education and poverty too?
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And of course L C confessed did she not before a magistrate when taken to court BEFORE her "beating " by police ?
Yes. No?
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What about the plethora of changes in testimony and the accusations and counter accusations between the parties?
You going to blame that on no education and poverty too?
Police bluff tactics (including "he/she said that you did...") and inadequate / incompetent / overstretched / bizarre legal defence seem plausible to me.
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And of course L C confessed did she not before a magistrate when taken to court BEFORE her "beating " by police ?
Yes. No?
I don't find it to be a simple yes/no situation.
If she hadn't repeated her "confession" before a magistrate, I don't see any evidence that could have led to the initial charge - assuming that any was required beyond a PJ "suspicion".
If she had, that doesn't appear to be in the same time frame as the later torture episode which was subject to a trial.
On the other hand, a legal representative was only an option once arguido status had been invoked.
How does anyone know what she had been subjected to as a "witness" under interrogation prior to that?
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Why anyone would believe for a moment that the Cipriano's are totally innocent is beyond me. They each blamed the other at various stages as the investigation played out. It cannot be said that Leonor definately killed Joana even by accident and it cannot be said that Joao killed her but one thing's for sure, they are both guilty of some dasdardly deed where Joana was concerned. Nobody except a raving looney would voluntarily confess to having accidentally killed their own child, and what's more, there is no evidence that Leonor fits that profile.
Hopefully in the fullness of time all will be revealed.
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Police bluff tactics (including "he/she said that you did...") and inadequate / incompetent / overstretched / bizarre legal defence seem plausible to me.
Plausible is not necessarily probable
Youre an apologist rather than a "critic of the evidence"
A biased starting place
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I don't find it to be a simple yes/no situation.
If she hadn't repeated her "confession" before a magistrate, I don't see any evidence that could have led to the initial charge - assuming that any was required beyond a PJ "suspicion".
If she had, that doesn't appear to be in the same time frame as the later torture episode which was subject to a trial.
On the other hand, a legal representative was only an option once arguido status had been invoked.
How does anyone know what she had been subjected to as a "witness" under interrogation prior to that?
She confessed to a magistrate days/weeks before her "beating out a confession " in october
why would she do that????
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She confessed to a magistrate days/weeks before her "beating out a confession " in october
why would she do that????
Seems she refused to write "such a confession" down, so no signature.
I don't believe there was such a confession.
Was that why she was tortured later?
I cannot believe the claims of such as Amaral and Cristavao.
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Seems she refused to write "such a confession" down, so no signature.
I don't believe there was such a confession.
Was that why she was tortured later?
I cannot believe the claims of such as Amaral and Cristavao.
Well she couldnt if she was as you all say illiterate???
She managed though to finger her brother in another "confession letter" make your minds up
Whether you went to provate school or no school , can or cant read or write, fingering your brother, and as carana speculates, with no evidence under duress, just dont cut the mustard
One of them at least knows what happened to that poor girl and it wasnt a amaral!
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Plausible is not necessarily probable
Youre an apologist rather than a "critic of the evidence"
A biased starting place
Nope.
What evidence?
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Nope.
What evidence?
Yes you are an apologist
You accept zero and come up with excuses all the time
Not evenher initital confession in sept to a magistrate is good enough for you
Putting it down to police intimidation
You also put all her andher brothers testimony (you know the psycopathic social delinquent with previous murder charge) and multiple changes of testimony due to intimidation
so yes you apologise for everythng, that is illogical
Oh andbtw carana it is apparently legal for police to torture or murder people in custody in the uk, covered by the law, nothng to do with this case but just came across it today, shocking really
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Seems she refused to write "such a confession" down, so no signature.
I don't believe there was such a confession.
Was that why she was tortured later?
I cannot believe the claims of such as Amaral and Cristavao.
Regardless of your belief, Leonor confessed to accidentally killing Joana by hitting her head off a wall in the family home, not really the sort of thing one admits to if your child had really disappeared, thought to be abducted by a stranger.
As for the LATER torture, this was an attempt to find the child in case she was still alive somewhere.
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Regardless of your belief, Leonor confessed to accidentally killing Joana by hitting her head off a wall in the family home, not really the sort of thing one admits to if your child had really disappeared, thought to be abducted by a stranger.
As for the LATER torture, this was an attempt to find the child in case she was still alive somewhere.
Erm... where did you get that idea from John?
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Erm... where did you get that idea from John?
The fact that she confessed to a magistrate when charged ages before "the torture"
did she ever say she was tortured into doing so?
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The fact that she confessed to a magistrate when charged ages before "the torture"
did she ever say she was tortured into doing so?
I've only ever found some reference to the fact that she had via a tabloid article at the time. Bluffing a suspect into "confession", or even non-physical torture techniques is not unknown (sleep deprivation, absence from family, accusations supposedly from someone else).
People can end up "confessing" to crimes that they had never committed. I've posted numerous studies on this.
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I've only ever found some reference to the fact that she had via a tabloid article at the time. Bluffing a suspect into "confession", or even non-physical torture techniques is not unknown (sleep deprivation, absence from family, accusations supposedly from someone else).
People can end up "confessing" to crimes that they had never committed. I've posted numerous studies on this.
She was living at home at the time of her first revelation, she had a police guard outside. I really cannot understand you making excuses for Leonor, I thought you could see through her charade?
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She was living at home at the time of her first revelation, she had a police guard outside. I really cannot understand you making excuses for Leonor, I thought you could see through her charade?
I really can't understand why - after it has been proved in court that Leonora Cipriano was viciously tortured by police officers during interrogation, she (the victim) was then given an extended prison sentence, while the guilty policemen remained unidentified, unpunished and still in a job.
If that's not a charade I don't know what is.
AIMHO
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I really can't understand why - after it has been proved in court that Leonora Cipriano was viciously tortured by police officers during interrogation, she (the victim) was then given an extended prison sentence, while the guilty policemen remained unidentified, unpunished and still in a job.
If that's not a charade I don't know what is.
AIMHO
She got an extended sentence for committing perjury before the judge. The women is a compulsive liar.
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She got an extended sentence for committing perjury before the judge. The women is a compulsive liar.
John, would you care to tell us exactly what her perjury was. TY in anticiption.
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John, would you care to tell us exactly what her perjury was. TY in anticiption.
No problem Sadie.
Leonor Cipriano was sentenced to an additional seven months in prison for perjury.
At issue were the "false statements" she made before the trial of the five inspectors of the Judicial Police. On reading the judgment the president of the group of judges stated he had, "No doubt that the defendant lied". The judge highlighted the "different versions and contradictions" that Joana's mother gave when she appeared in court in 2008 when the five inspectors of the PJ were tried.
At the time it was proved that Leonor was indeed assaulted on the premises of the Judicial Police in Faro while being interrogated during the investigation into the disappearance of her daughter in 2004. However, the trial failed to prove who carried out the assaults and Leonor's testimony was full of contradictions.
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No problem Sadie.
Leonor Cipriano was sentenced to an additional seven months in prison for perjury.
At issue were the "false statements" she made before the trial of the five inspectors of the Judicial Police. On reading the judgment the president of the group of judges stated he had, "No doubt that the defendant lied". The judge highlighted the "different versions and contradictions" that Joana's mother gave when she appeared in court in 2008 when the five inspectors of the PJ were tried.
At the time it was proved that Leonor was indeed assaulted on the premises of the Judicial Police in Faro while being interrogated during the investigation into the disappearance of her daughter in 2004. However, the trial failed to prove who carried out the assaults and Leonor's testimony was full of contradictions.
So poor peasant woman Leonor Cipriano was sentenced to a further 7 months jail sentence for perjury ... on top of the 16 years already given
Yet Chief Inspector Amaral who was also sentenced for perjury ... was given NO actual jail sentence, but 18 months suspended jail sentence ... and allowed to carry on in his job as senior Police Officer.
You tell us that Chief Inspector in Portugal is equivalent to Superintendent of Police in the UK ... yet a man of his status got off virtually scot free? 8()(((@#
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So poor peasant woman Leonor Cipriano was sentenced to a further 7 months jail sentence for perjury ... on top of the 16 years already given
Yet Chief Inspector Amaral who was also sentenced for perjury ... was given NO actual jail sentence, but 18 months suspended jail sentence ... and allowed to carry on in his job as senior Police Officer.
You tell us that Chief Inspector in Portugal is equivalent to Superintendent of Police in the UK ... yet a man of his status got off virtually scot free? 8()(((@#
Undoubtedly, Amaral was lucky to avoid jail, some of his former associates in the PJ weren't so lucky second time around.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6218.msg223684#msg223684
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She was living at home at the time of her first revelation, she had a police guard outside. I really cannot understand you making excuses for Leonor, I thought you could see through her charade?
According to the Correia da PJ, unless you have a more reliable source.
How long had she been interrogated for by that time? And under what circumstances? If someone could provide a full video of her entire time in police custody at that initial time, I'd go through it and perhaps change my assessment.
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According to the Correia da PJ, unless you have a more reliable source.
How long had she been interrogated for by that time? And under what circumstances? If someone could provide a full video of her entire time in police custody at that initial time, I'd go through it and perhaps change my assessment.
Chronology of events.
12 SEPTEMBER 2004
Joana Cipriano (8) is last seen in Figueira, Portimão.
Sun 18 SEPTEMBER 2004
The child's mother, Leonor Cipriano, claims that the girl was abducted.
Tue 21 SEPTEMBER 2004
Leonor Cipriano being questioned at Faro Directorate by PJ, spends
Tuesday night at the Directorate.
Wed 22 SEPTEMBER 2004
Leonor Cipriano taken home to Figueira by PJ officers in order to
undertake a house search.
Thur 23 SEPTEMBER 2004
Leonor Cipriano spent the night at home under police surveillance, being
taken back to the Faro Directorate by the PJ this morning.
Fri 24 SEPTEMBER 2004
Leonor Cipriano taken to Court along with brother John
for first hearing.
Sat 25 SEPTEMBER 2004 (2.30am)
Leonor Cipriano remanded in custody. John Cipriano
released on bail.
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Chronology of events.
12 SEPTEMBER 2004
Joana Cipriano (8) is last seen in Figueira, Portimão.
Sun 18 SEPTEMBER 2004
The child's mother, Leonor Cipriano, claims that the girl was abducted.
Tue 21 SEPTEMBER 2004
Leonor Cipriano being questioned at Faro Directorate by PJ, spends
Tuesday night at the Directorate.
Wed 22 SEPTEMBER 2004
Leonor Cipriano taken home to Figueira by PJ officers in order to
undertake a house search.
Thur 23 SEPTEMBER 2004
Leonor Cipriano spent the night at home under police surveillance, being
taken back to the Faro Directorate by the PJ this morning.
Fri 24 SEPTEMBER 2004
Leonor Cipriano taken to Court along with brother John
for first hearing.
Sat 25 SEPTEMBER 2004 (2.30am)
Leonor Cipriano remanded in custody. John Cipriano
released on bail.
And the torture came much later while she was in prison.
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And the torture came much later while she was in prison.
As Carana has pointer out there is no real evidence that she confessed before being tortured
And the confession was the only real evidence against her
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As Carana has pointer out there is no real evidence that she confessed before being tortured
And the confession was the only real evidence against her
That is why she was arrested and held in custody in the first place while her brother John Cipriano was bailed. Leonor initially said she caused the fatal injury to her daughter when she hit her head off a wall while her brother admitted to removing the child's body and disposing of it. She changed her story thereafter as we all know blaming her brother for the killing.