Author Topic: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?  (Read 109545 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #705 on: May 16, 2020, 03:45:06 PM »
So it’s not true, merely your opinion. Thank you for clearing that up.

So you have no reason to believe that France, Italy and Spain aren’t counting care home deaths, is that correct ?

No wrong again. It may well be true... I seem to remember hearing it... I certainly didn't make it up. What we have established is that you are mistaken

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #706 on: May 16, 2020, 03:51:17 PM »
From the spectator...
 UK death in March.

According to the Guardian, ‘The change comes after weeks of criticism of the way that the UK had been reporting its coronavirus death toll, which made effective comparisons with other European countries impossible.’ While the Mirror stated that the ‘UK now has second highest coronavirus death toll in Europe’.

But journalists’ failure to read the instructions means the statistical comparisons they make are erroneous. The UK’s daily statistics now include ‘deaths in hospitals, care homes and the wider community’, but neither Spanish nor French statistics include deaths in ‘the wider community’ – deaths that largely take place in the home.

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #707 on: May 16, 2020, 03:56:19 PM »
Until Britain becomes a third world country, it's fine if we all starve to death or lose our cars, homes & businesses, just so long as not one more person dies from that nasty virus.

Just think if Johnson had locked down the country as early as other countries and the virus hadn’t been allowed to spread in the community. Imagine how different things could have been.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #708 on: May 16, 2020, 04:02:37 PM »
No wrong again. It may well be true... I seem to remember hearing it... I certainly didn't make it up. What we have established is that you are mistaken

No, what we have established is that, yet again, you are presenting your own opinion as fact with not a modicum of evidence other than ‘ I heard it somewhere’. I heard it somewhere that Johnson wasn’t really ill, nonsense of course but anyone with any sense will do their own research and base their opinion on that evidence not on ‘hearing it somewhere’.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #709 on: May 16, 2020, 04:04:02 PM »
From the spectator...
 UK death in March.

According to the Guardian, ‘The change comes after weeks of criticism of the way that the UK had been reporting its coronavirus death toll, which made effective comparisons with other European countries impossible.’ While the Mirror stated that the ‘UK now has second highest coronavirus death toll in Europe’.

But journalists’ failure to read the instructions means the statistical comparisons they make are erroneous. The UK’s daily statistics now include ‘deaths in hospitals, care homes and the wider community’, but neither Spanish nor French statistics include deaths in ‘the wider community’ – deaths that largely take place in the home.

The evidence for this.....?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #710 on: May 16, 2020, 04:14:07 PM »
Just think if Johnson had locked down the country as early as other countries and the virus hadn’t been allowed to spread in the community. Imagine how different things could have been.

The problem imo was caused by international travel, if he'd have shut the ports & airports when the virus first emerged it would have struggled to get here in the first place. As I understand it, international travel has still been permissible during the lockdown, & just the other week a boat load of refugees (illegal economic migrants) washed up on the shores in my town, where they were welcomed in to get a free council house & benefits.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 04:39:33 PM by Wonderfulspam »
I stand with Putin. Glory to Mother Putin.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #711 on: May 16, 2020, 04:28:05 PM »
The evidence for this.....?
From the same article...

It is also far more accurate to record deaths per capita, as is done by Johns Hopkins University whose statistics today, per 100,000 population, put Belgium at the top (66) of the international table followed by Spain (53), Italy (46), the UK (40), and France (36) – with the United States much further down (19). But remember that few, if any, of these countries except the UK include in their total deaths the category of ‘the wider community’.

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #712 on: May 16, 2020, 04:54:39 PM »
I read that during the Cameron austerity years, over 9 years of austerity, the government saved just 30 billion.

The government has spent 125 billion or more in the past 3 months, & with plans to continue furlough payments until October the cost is going to continue to rise.

Maybe Captain Tom could do 300 billion laps of his garden to help raise funds for the government.
Or maybe you could do a sponsored absence from the internet for the rest of you life?  I’d sponsor that.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #713 on: May 16, 2020, 04:56:13 PM »
From the same article...

It is also far more accurate to record deaths per capita, as is done by Johns Hopkins University whose statistics today, per 100,000 population, put Belgium at the top (66) of the international table followed by Spain (53), Italy (46), the UK (40), and France (36) – with the United States much further down (19). But remember that few, if any, of these countries except the UK include in their total deaths the category of ‘the wider community’.

Could you please post the whole article?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #714 on: May 16, 2020, 04:56:51 PM »
The problem imo was caused by international travel, if he'd have shut the ports & airports when the virus first emerged it would have struggled to get here in the first place. As I understand it, international travel has still been permissible during the lockdown, & just the other week a boat load of refugees (illegal economic migrants) washed up on the shores in my town, where they were welcomed in to get a free council house & benefits.
Are you a Dovorian?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #715 on: May 16, 2020, 04:59:38 PM »
Are you a Dovorian?

No, a few more miles away along the coast.
I stand with Putin. Glory to Mother Putin.

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #716 on: May 16, 2020, 05:07:52 PM »
No, a few more miles away along the coast.
Oh, my neck of the woods then.  Would you mind getting in some groceries for my parents?  They’re in their 80s and haven’t left the house in weeks, and would really appreciate it.  I know you’re keen to do a good turn for others, you strike me as the caring type.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #717 on: May 16, 2020, 05:32:05 PM »
Could you please post the whole article?

Nothing would change your mind

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #718 on: May 16, 2020, 05:50:22 PM »
Nothing would change your mind
This article Davel?

John Keiger
It’s a mistake to compare our Covid death toll with Spain and France
1 May 2020, 1:17pm
It’s a mistake to compare our Covid death toll with Spain and FranceIt’s a mistake to compare our Covid death toll with Spain and France
(Photo: Getty)
Text settings
Comments
Share




Covid statistics are like complex machinery; if you don’t read the instructions you won’t operate them properly. Which is why the claim by some media outlets that the UK now has the second highest number of Covid deaths in Europe, should be handled with caution.

It is true that on Wednesday the official UK Covid-19 death toll increased by 4,419 to 26,097 after the government included deaths outside hospitals for the first time. The figures were revised respectively by Public Health England since the first UK death in March.

According to the Guardian, ‘The change comes after weeks of criticism of the way that the UK had been reporting its coronavirus death toll, which made effective comparisons with other European countries impossible.’ While the Mirror stated that the ‘UK now has second highest coronavirus death toll in Europe’.

But journalists’ failure to read the instructions means the statistical comparisons they make are erroneous. The UK’s daily statistics now include ‘deaths in hospitals, care homes and the wider community’, but neither Spanish nor French statistics include deaths in ‘the wider community’ – deaths that largely take place in the home.

As there is no international standardised method for attributing and recording deaths, we are not comparing like with like when we look at coronavirus deaths, and consequently effective comparisons with other European countries remain impossible.

Take the French statistics. When the French director general of health, Professor Salomon, first began giving his daily press conferences on Covid statistics in March, France’s total deaths only included ‘deaths in hospitals’, as I explained in The Spectator. Media pressure forced this to change and from early April his reports began to include deaths in France’s 10,000 care homes. But they still do not include deaths in the ‘wider community’. Professor Salomon explained that this was too difficult to collect in a timely manner, because each death certificate with a cause of death must be signed by a doctor, and then transmitted to the local town hall, who must then pass it to the statistical agency (INSEE).

Nevertheless, on 26 April the French union of General Practitioners produced a tally of how many Covid deaths had occurred ‘in the wider community’ since the epidemic began, based on a survey of its members. It estimated that 9,000 had died since the beginning of the epidemic. If the French were to fully report their total deaths they would have to include this third category, which would put their current tally way above the United Kingdom's. As the French daily La Croix noted, the large number of French deaths at home is ‘a time-bomb’ waiting to explode.

It is also far more accurate to record deaths per capita, as is done by Johns Hopkins University whose statistics today, per 100,000 population, put Belgium at the top (66) of the international table followed by Spain (53), Italy (46), the UK (40), and France (36) – with the United States much further down (19). But remember that few, if any, of these countries except the UK include in their total deaths the category of ‘the wider community’.

So when the media presents coronavirus death tolls, and especially when it makes international comparisons, it’s vital that you read the small print.

WRITTEN BY
John Keiger
John Keiger is a professor of French history and former Research Director of the Department of Politics and International Studies at the University of Cambridge
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline faithlilly

Re: Is Boris’s Lax Leadership Putting Us All in Danger ?
« Reply #719 on: May 16, 2020, 06:29:23 PM »
Nothing would change your mind

This article is over two weeks old. There has been nearly 10,000 more deaths in the U.K.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?