Author Topic: Apartment Key  (Read 26166 times)

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Offline Innominate

Apartment Key
« on: June 08, 2017, 08:10:32 AM »
As far as I understand people staying in the apartments are only given one front door key, which is of an unusual design.

The security of the other keys, held by staff, is one obvious consideration.

Leaving that aside the other consideration is how secure was the key held by the holiday makers?

One, or the other, of each couple would go and check on the children (and Diane Webster was instructed to return to the apartment after the alarm was raised).

There is a small detail which does not seem to get mentioned in the statements: the passing of the single key between the occupants who want to access each apartment.

In David Payne's rogatory he states:

---

485 "How did it lock, and''
  Reply "Yes.'


 1485 "Was it secure''
  Reply "Err you needed, yeah once the door was shut, you know you needed the keys to, you know to gain entry err into the apartment. Err I can't remember whether we ever had, you know whether you can deadlock it so that you could get in and out with the door open, but essentially you needed the key you know, to use, if I remember to gain access into the, err into the apartment, and you know generally it was difficult because there was, you know we'd ask about more than one key, there was the only one key to the apartment so during the day time you know we left the key under the, the err there was a mat err outside, err you know that you wipe your feet on, and err you know that's, that's basically how we gained entry into it during the day time.'

----

If the McCanns did not secure their front door key, and used a similar method to the Paynes then a potential stranger entry to the apartment would have been quick and easy.

The obvious flaw is that the McCanns did not disclose whether they did store the front door key outside the apartment.


See also "Madeleine McCann - The locks to apartment 5a"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1207.msg32131#msg32131

172
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 01:02:13 PM by John »

Offline jassi

Re: Apartment Key
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2017, 08:43:01 AM »
Ah, the phantom mat lifter. Have we had any sightings of him or her ?
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Benice

Re: Apartment Key
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2017, 09:01:08 AM »
As far as I understand people staying in the apartments are only given one front door key, which is of an unusual design.

The security of the other keys, held by staff, is one obvious consideration.

Leaving that aside the other consideration is how secure was the key held by the holiday makers?

One, or the other, of each couple would go and check on the children (and Diane Webster was instructed to return to the apartment after the alarm was raised).

There is a small detail which does not seem to get mentioned in the statements: the passing of the single key between the occupants who want to access each apartment.

In David Payne's rogatory he states:

---

485 "How did it lock, and''
  Reply "Yes.'


 1485 "Was it secure''
  Reply "Err you needed, yeah once the door was shut, you know you needed the keys to, you know to gain entry err into the apartment. Err I can't remember whether we ever had, you know whether you can deadlock it so that you could get in and out with the door open, but essentially you needed the key you know, to use, if I remember to gain access into the, err into the apartment, and you know generally it was difficult because there was, you know we'd ask about more than one key, there was the only one key to the apartment so during the day time you know we left the key under the, the err there was a mat err outside, err you know that you wipe your feet on, and err you know that's, that's basically how we gained entry into it during the day time.'

----

If the McCanns did not secure their front door key, and used a similar method to the Paynes then a potential stranger entry to the apartment would have been quick and easy.

The obvious flaw is that the McCanns did not disclose whether they did store the front door key outside the apartment.

Or perhaps they were never asked.    Why would it even occur to them to mention it  - if it was something they never did ?   

« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 01:12:00 PM by Brietta »
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Angelo222

Re: Apartment Key
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2017, 10:29:34 AM »
The only reference I can recall to the front door key to 5a was that on the night Maddie disappeared it was left on the kitchen counter, what they did with it during the day is anyone's guess.  A reconstruction would have cleared this point up too imo.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Apartment Key
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2017, 10:52:02 AM »
As far as I understand people staying in the apartments are only given one front door key, which is of an unusual design.

The security of the other keys, held by staff, is one obvious consideration.

Leaving that aside the other consideration is how secure was the key held by the holiday makers?

One, or the other, of each couple would go and check on the children (and Diane Webster was instructed to return to the apartment after the alarm was raised).

There is a small detail which does not seem to get mentioned in the statements: the passing of the single key between the occupants who want to access each apartment.

In David Payne's rogatory he states:

---

485 "How did it lock, and''
  Reply "Yes.'


 1485 "Was it secure''
  Reply "Err you needed, yeah once the door was shut, you know you needed the keys to, you know to gain entry err into the apartment. Err I can't remember whether we ever had, you know whether you can deadlock it so that you could get in and out with the door open, but essentially you needed the key you know, to use, if I remember to gain access into the, err into the apartment, and you know generally it was difficult because there was, you know we'd ask about more than one key, there was the only one key to the apartment so during the day time you know we left the key under the, the err there was a mat err outside, err you know that you wipe your feet on, and err you know that's, that's basically how we gained entry into it during the day time.'

----

If the McCanns did not secure their front door key, and used a similar method to the Paynes then a potential stranger entry to the apartment would have been quick and easy.

The obvious flaw is that the McCanns did not disclose whether they did store the front door key outside the apartment.

The key is not of a particularly unusual design.
It's called a cruciform lock, among other names.

http://united-locksmith.net/blog/what-is-a-cruciform-lock

You can find "how to" guides, on line, on picking them !
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 01:13:05 PM by Brietta »
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Apartment Key
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2017, 10:59:52 AM »
The only reference I can recall to the front door key to 5a was that on the night Maddie disappeared it was left on the kitchen counter, what they did with it during the day is anyone's guess.  A reconstruction would have cleared this point up too imo.
Does anyone have an idea where this reference would be?
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Offline Angelo222

Re: Apartment Key
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2017, 11:47:11 AM »
Does anyone have an idea where this reference would be?

That was why Gerry couldn't have used the front door on the 9pm check as the key had been left in the kitchen.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 03:18:47 PM by John »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline sadie

Re: Apartment Key
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2017, 12:15:26 PM »
The key is not of a particularly unusual design.
It's called a cruciform lock, among other names.

http://united-locksmith.net/blog/what-is-a-cruciform-lock

You can find "how to" guides, on line, on picking them !

Not an unusual design?

Well I have never seen one and have lived nearly 80 years

Offline G-Unit

Re: Apartment Key
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2017, 12:47:14 PM »
Russell mentions using Matt's keys on the Sunday night, but not why he was checking when Matt was in the apartment. Note how his memory of the McCann apartment improves after a year! He is also contradicting Gerry's testimony.


- Because he is asked, states that he went to the apartment of the McCann couple once but does not remember if he was asked to go or went of his own accord. He furthers that he did not know if the glass sliding doors were locked or not but that probably Gerry told him on this night to enter his apartment to check on the children.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN.htm

On Sunday I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment as well as Rachael and Matt’s. I had taken Matt’s keys and I believe that their door was deadlocked the same as ours and that I would have needed to turn the key two times.  We kept our shutters down, and the patio door was closed I am not sure whether theirs was the same.  I recall that Kate and Gerry’s apartment was accessed by the patios door which was left closed and unlocked.  I recall that their front door was accessed from the car-park access was easily gained to the apartment from the poolside.
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

That they left the house by the main door, that he was sure he locked, it being that the rear door was also closed and locked. They were the first to arrive at the TAPAS where everyone showed up except only for MATHEW, who was still ill. Though his wife RACHEL showed up for dinner.........every half-hour the deponent or KATE went, alternately, to the apartment to confirm that all was well with the children. On that day only the deponent and his wife entered the apartment. He is sure that they always entered through the front door, not knowing [how] to show [demonstrate] that they locked it with a key.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
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Offline John

Re: Apartment Key
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2017, 01:17:32 PM »
Not an unusual design?

Well I have never seen one and have lived nearly 80 years

I must admit I have never come across one like that either before looking at this case, maybe they are uniquely Portuguese?

Depicted below is the same style of lock used on the front door of apt 5a.  Photo on right shows the style of key used.

   


Below are Portuguese Police photos depicting the actual locks fitted to apartment 5a in May 2007.
 




« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 03:24:16 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

Re: Apartment Key
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2017, 01:26:50 PM »
Another reference thread.

See also "Madeleine McCann - The locks to apartment 5a"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1207.msg32131#msg32131
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Alice Purjorick

"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Brietta

Re: Apartment Key
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2017, 01:29:18 PM »
The key is not of a particularly unusual design.
It's called a cruciform lock, among other names.

http://united-locksmith.net/blog/what-is-a-cruciform-lock

You can find "how to" guides, on line, on picking them !

No need for that as far as 5A was concerned.  Previous occupants of the apartment found it was not possible to prevent entry to a person using a key, despite taking pains to prevent it.

Therefore had the apartment been in lockdown during the 3rd May it seems that entry was still possible.  I wonder why that should have been?

Could it suggest that contrary to Madeleine being a specific target ... might it have been the next child of similar age and appearance resident in that apartment who would have disappeared from it.

Snip
We noticed that the cleaning personnel entered the apartment after one knock and did not give us time to respond. This was a bit bothersome and for this reason we would lock the door, and would leave the key in the inside lock.

After this precaution, the next day, the same thing happened and the cleaning woman entered even though the door was locked with the key in the lock.

We never found out how it was possible for a cleaning woman to enter after we had tried to prevent it.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLO-D_AMBROSIO.htm
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Robittybob1

« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 09:57:35 PM by Robittybob1 »
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Apartment Key
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2017, 02:11:41 PM »
No need for that as far as 5A was concerned. Previous occupants of the apartment found it was not possible to prevent entry to a person using a key, despite taking pains to prevent it.

Therefore had the apartment been in lockdown during the 3rd May it seems that entry was still possible.  I wonder why that should have been?

Could it suggest that contrary to Madeleine being a specific target ... might it have been the next child of similar age and appearance resident in that apartment who would have disappeared from it.

Snip
We noticed that the cleaning personnel entered the apartment after one knock and did not give us time to respond. This was a bit bothersome and for this reason we would lock the door, and would leave the key in the inside lock.

After this precaution, the next day, the same thing happened and the cleaning woman entered even though the door was locked with the key in the lock.

We never found out how it was possible for a cleaning woman to enter after we had tried to prevent it.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLO-D_AMBROSIO.htm

Easy old stuff with one of these:
"Double cylinder anti lockout lock" and it looks like this:
http://www.saundersonsecurity.co.uk/acatalog/info_E_DZ_31_31_NP.html

There are innocent explanations for most things.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey