Author Topic: Brexit has well and truly begun!  (Read 286018 times)

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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2220 on: January 27, 2020, 08:58:24 PM »
An alternative view

EU has upper hand in Brexit trade talks, says Leo Varadkar
Leo Varadkar said it would be difficult to reach a trade deal on Boris Johnson’s timetable
Leo Varadkar said it would be difficult to reach a trade deal on Boris Johnson’s timetable
AIDAN CRAWLEY/EPA
The EU will have the upper hand in trade talks and will use Britain’s “weak position” on access to the Continent’s financial markets to force big concessions, Ireland’s prime minister has said.

Leo Varadkar, who held talks with Michel Barnier, the EU’s lead negotiator, today, warned that Britain’s economy was vulnerable during trade negotiations after Brexit next week.

His comments come as an internal Brussels diplomatic document, seen by The Times, reveals that the EU will demand the same fishing rights in Britain’s waters.

“I think the reality of situation is that the EU is a union of 27 member states. The UK is only one country. We have a population and a market of 450 million people. The UK, it’s about 60 million,” Mr Varadkar said. “So if these were two teams up against each other playing football, who do you think has the stronger team?”

Mr Varadkar said that, while Britain had a “very strong position” on control of its fishing waters after Brexit, any advantage would be hugely offset by vulnerabilities, especially on the EU’s ability to block the City from European markets.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2221 on: January 27, 2020, 09:06:42 PM »
With Brexit happening we're seeing a different picture now. Macron is under pressure from French fishermen panicking at the prospect of losing access to UK waters. Barnier fears the loss of millions of jobs accross Europe. There are rumours that other countries will follow the UK's lead.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-eu-survey-italy-ireland-portugal-eurosceptic-poll-a8888126.html
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2223 on: January 28, 2020, 09:58:07 AM »
The EU as a whole may be strong, but the EU is made up of countries, each with their own needs. Some, in particular Ireland, the Netherlands and Belgium, need trade with the UK more than others. On the whole, the EU 27 would undoubtedly face significant economic harm from major disturbances to their trade with the UK.

It seems to me that both sides need to get the negoitiations right because both have a lot to lose. The EU have to consider the needs of 27 countries, the UK government just one.
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2224 on: January 28, 2020, 05:30:25 PM »
The EU as a whole may be strong, but the EU is made up of countries, each with their own needs. Some, in particular Ireland, the Netherlands and Belgium, need trade with the UK more than others. On the whole, the EU 27 would undoubtedly face significant economic harm from major disturbances to their trade with the UK.

It seems to me that both sides need to get the negoitiations right because both have a lot to lose. The EU have to consider the needs of 27 countries, the UK government just one.
IMO the side the decided to stand alone in order to do trade deals with a country like the USA (one that it has just managed to severely piss off) looks to have the weaker negotiating position. 
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2225 on: January 28, 2020, 10:55:16 PM »
IMO the side the decided to stand alone in order to do trade deals with a country like the USA (one that it has just managed to severely piss off) looks to have the weaker negotiating position.

We shall see.
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2226 on: January 29, 2020, 01:27:17 PM »
The Government is wasting no time in stating it's intentions concerning fishing in UK waters;

Britain to Introduce Bill to End Automatic EU Fishing Rights in U.K. Waters
https://hamodia.com/2020/01/29/britain-introduce-bill-end-automatic-eu-fishing-rights-u-k-waters/

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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2227 on: January 29, 2020, 03:41:13 PM »
An excellent article on the subject in the National Disgrace that is the FT

https://www.ft.com/content/96ebfb1a-3ea6-11ea-a01a-bae547046735
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2228 on: January 29, 2020, 03:49:24 PM »
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2229 on: January 29, 2020, 09:20:00 PM »
Who really owns British Fishing Rights?
https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/10/11/fishing-quota-uk-defra-michael-gove/amp/

These quotas are set by the EU. Presumeably that will change post-Brexit.
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2230 on: January 29, 2020, 09:48:33 PM »
These quotas are set by the EU. Presumeably that will change post-Brexit.
Indeed, no doubt to the benefit of these five multimillionaires.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2231 on: January 29, 2020, 10:57:03 PM »
Indeed, no doubt to the benefit of these five multimillionaires.

Who knows? Whatever the arrangement to come it will be one arranged by the elected and answerable British government not by unelected EU bureaucrats.
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2232 on: January 29, 2020, 11:00:18 PM »
Who knows? Whatever the arrangement to come it will be one arranged by the elected and answerable British government not by unelected EU bureaucrats.
The British government is run by unelected bureaucrats but never mind, I’m sure being British they are preferable to the European variety.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline faithlilly

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2233 on: January 30, 2020, 12:22:20 AM »
Who knows? Whatever the arrangement to come it will be one arranged by the elected and answerable British government not by unelected EU bureaucrats.

Like Nicky Morgan or Zac Goldsmith?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #2234 on: January 30, 2020, 08:38:58 PM »
Absolutely spot on!

Brexit ‘liberation day’ is self-serving fantasy
new
Leavers know they can’t be proved wrong if the measure of success is freedom from the yoke rather than economic gain

Philip Collins
Thursday January 30 2020, 5.00pm, The Times
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In Cambodia it is January 7. In Kuwait, February 26. In the United States it is March 3, it is May 8 in the Czech Republic and July 4 in Rwanda. In Turkey it is celebrated on August 30 and the following day by the Lithuanians. In Bangladesh it is December 16. National liberation day in these nations commemorates, respectively, the defeat of the murderous Khmer Rouge, the expulsion of Iraq, the emancipation of slaves in Charlottesville, Virginia, liberation from Nazi Germany, the deposing of a genocidal tyrant, the end of the Turkish War of Independence, the withdrawal of the Russian army after half a century of occupation and the creation of a brand new nation out of Pakistan. None of these days of national liberation describe the voluntary departure of a sovereign democracy from a voluntary alignment of its rules regarding trade in goods and services.

Much the worst thing about the politicians and pundits who led the charge for Brexit is how susceptible they are to rank stupidity. I am not saying there are no reasons at all to wish to the leave the European Union; I am merely saying that the desire to be free is not one of them. The implication, that Britain has been in servitude since 1973, would be offensive to those who have endured genuine suffering if it were not so manifestly absurd. Brexit is a petty local dispute by comparison. It does not warrant this pathetic borrowed grandeur. Yet, as the prominent Brexit cheerleaders unfurl their flags and banners for their ode to joy at our departure, this is the rhetorical idiocy of the time.

The ascent into melodramatic rhetoric is always a tip-off that the speaker has nothing to say. The reason that Brexit has to be described as freedom from oppression is that it is hard to know what else it is, if it is not that. A notable feature of the sorry Brexit saga has been the vastly diminished expectations of even those pressing for departure. Whereas, in a lost and more innocent age in late 2016, Daniel Hannan could write his comic masterpiece, What Next, in which he looked forward to the day that Britain would emerge blinking into the light of a new dawn, to the sound of a nearby gurgling brook. After Mrs May’s downbeat tenure and Mr Johnson’s bluster the tone had changed completely. For a long while now the argument has been no more elevated than we have started so we had better finish. For all Mr Johnson’s fabled optimism it is hard, from what he says, to glean why we are doing this at all.

The reason for the silence where the good, persuasive reasons should be is that Brexit is not a rational project. I do not mean it is therefore irrational. I mean that before it is rational and mathematical it is psychological and emotional. By what measure will Brexit be judged a success or a failure, in the course of time, by its advocates? A higher trend rate of growth? A better performance than the average of the European economies? Regional growth led by inventive regulation that would have been stifled by the EU? It will be none of these things because Brexit was never an economic project for the Goves and Johnsons and Farages. It was, at the risk of emptying the term of meaning, a philosophical project. It was a liberation movement and there lies the secret of its success. Brexit is proof of what Aristotle pointed out in The Art of Rhetoric, that an appeal to the emotions trumps an appeal to the mind.

The description of Brexit as a liberation from the European yoke is also a proof against failure. If Brexit is defined by detaching British law from Europe then success is guaranteed merely by enacting departure. At 11pm this evening success will arrive. Yesterday we were in bondage; today we are free and freedom is its own reward. Brexit, conceived in this way, cannot fail which makes it obvious the argument is rigged. This is obvious self-serving rubbish which Messrs Gove and Johnson are bright enough to understand. The honest thing for them to do would to be set themselves some targets for what Brexit will achieve. How do they think they will be proved right, in the fullness of time? Brexit allows us to diverge from Europe but to what end and to what beneficial consequence we still, remarkably, have no idea.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly