Jeremy Bamber - Jackie's theories on why Sheila did it

[John]

John with regard to Sheila we are now broaching the subject of was Sheila still alive when the police were outside and could she have still walked about with the first shot???
I don't think either of us know that for definate.
I would really like any sound recordings from the time of entry to WHF released to the defence/prosecution even if only under strict conditions plus file one when the police believed it was murder/suicide.
There must be so much more information that should be shared in that file.
Being open and transparent is the only way MOJ cases can be fairly assessed

John keep writing to Jeremy if he turns you down because in the end 'he' might decide he wants to speak to you

Out with my chainsaw today taking a hawthorn hedge down to the fenceline so popped in for a cuppa.

Jack, we have looked at this at great length, Sheila was incapacitated by the first shot as can be seen by the original photos and the absence of any blood smearing anywhere. 

I also doubt whether any sound recordings even exist any more as so much time has gone by.

And as far as PII is concerned, judges and the CCRC have looked at this and found that there is nothing relevant to the killings.

[jackiepreece]

John with regard to your comments below


And as far as PII is concerned, judges and the CCRC have looked at this and found that there is nothing relevant to the killings.

Was that the case with the Guildford Four the judges looked at documents held back and found there was nothing 'proving' the Guilford Four were innocent

It was only Gareth Pierce being allowed access to documents 'not to be shown to the defence' which she should clearly not have been allowed to see or the Guildford Four would still be in prison.

The 'Justice System' KNEW the Guildford Four were innocent for a number of years, so you can see why I am suspicious of Judges and the CCRC

Have we any evidence things have changed.

I would have thought it was vital to keep those recordings as the most accurate record of what happened at WHF that night.  I bet everyone on this forum would like to listen to them

[jackiepreece]

John this is taken from the Jeremy Bamber Website where they are stating

the pathologist confirmed in court that this first shot wouldn't have killed her and that she would have been able to walk around with this injury.)

How do we know the truth about this?



You must be asking, how did Jeremy get blamed for the killings if the police knew Sheila was alive? Remember that the original Inspector on the case Taff Jones was adamant that Jeremy was innocent. He knew the truth, that the firearms team had bungled the raid on the house, they  probably had failed to notice that Sheila was still alive with one gunshot wound to the tissue in her neck (the pathologist confirmed in court that this first shot wouldn't have killed her and that she would have been able to walk around with this injury.)

[John]

John with regard to your comments below


And as far as PII is concerned, judges and the CCRC have looked at this and found that there is nothing relevant to the killings.

Was that the case with the Guildford Four the judges looked at documents held back and found there was nothing 'proving' the Guilford Four were innocent

It was only Gareth Pierce being allowed access to documents 'not to be shown to the defence' which she should clearly not have been allowed to see or the Guildford Four would still be in prison.

The 'Justice System' KNEW the Guildford Four were innocent for a number of years, so you can see why I am suspicious of Judges and the CCRC

Have we any evidence things have changed.

I would have thought it was vital to keep those recordings as the most accurate record of what happened at WHF that night.  I bet everyone on this forum would like to listen to them

Good point Jack.  I agree there a lot of unscrupulous people out there masquerading as the bastions of law and order.  The recent police prosecutions are testament to this and it is a sorry state of affairs for sure.   That said however, you cannot apply this to each and every potential wrongful conviction in the hope that if you shake enough tress then something useful and incriminating might fall out.

I think the situation has got worse and not better which is a very sad indictment of our criminal justice system.  You only have to look at the number of police officers who have criminal records to understand what a mess our country is in.

The only reason documents and photos have been withheld in the Jeremy Bamber case is to protect Essex Police from criticism.  I don't believe for a minute that there is any other reason for withholding anything.

You have to accept Jack that Jeremy put Sheila in the frame when he implicated her in the crime. Clearing sheila of any blame renders Jeremy guilty by default.

[John]

John this is taken from the Jeremy Bamber Website where they are stating

the pathologist confirmed in court that this first shot wouldn't have killed her and that she would have been able to walk around with this injury.)

How do we know the truth about this?



You must be asking, how did Jeremy get blamed for the killings if the police knew Sheila was alive? Remember that the original Inspector on the case Taff Jones was adamant that Jeremy was innocent. He knew the truth, that the firearms team had bungled the raid on the house, they  probably had failed to notice that Sheila was still alive with one gunshot wound to the tissue in her neck (the pathologist confirmed in court that this first shot wouldn't have killed her and that she would have been able to walk around with this injury.)

That isn't strictly true Jack.

In Dr Vanezis' statement of 30 September 1985 (extract below) he states that the initial shot would have stunned her although she would not have lost complete consciousness. He also states that she was sat down during and between both shots which rules out completely any possibility of her getting to her feet. 

[John]

In Dr Vanezis' statement of 7 May 1986 (extract below) he states that Sheila could have been standing on sitting when she received the first shot and that she certainly didn't get up.  She may have been able to hold her head up after the first shot but only for a very short period of time.

Seems there is absolutely no doubt about this Jack.  Sheila didn't get up, she didn't walk about and she didn't climb any stairs as Mike Tesko has promoted across on the Jeremy Bamber fantasy forum!!

[John]

You may also wish to consult Dr Vanezis' statement of 12 November 1986 where he was very critical of the police efforts.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=206.msg2231#msg2231

[Matthew Wyse]

We have looked at this in depth and even without the good doctors various reports it is very clear that Sheila never got to her feet after the first shot.  She didn't even have the mobility to put her hands to her neck wound which is the first thing someone does when they are shot.  Shona always makes the very valid point that had she been fully conscious she would have coughed up blood and it would have been visible down the front of her nightdress.  You have to face the facts Jackie, Sheila was more or less incapacitated by the first shot, she would not have been able to find the rifle, position it and pull the trigger even if she had wanted to.

[John]

We have looked at this in depth and even without the good doctors various reports it is very clear that Sheila never got to her feet after the first shot.  She didn't even have the mobility to put her hands to her neck wound which is the first thing someone does when they are shot.  Shona always makes the very valid point that had she been fully conscious she would have coughed up blood and it would have been visible down the front of her nightdress.  You have to face the facts Jackie, Sheila was more or less incapacitated by the first shot, she would not have been able to find the rifle, position it and pull the trigger even if she had wanted to.

Dr Vanezis never saw the original photos until after he had made his first statement and he was shocked by them when he eventually did see them.  He could tell from the original photos that Sheila was never upright after the initial shot otherwise the blood trail would have run vertically down her neck.

[huggy]

John this is taken from the Jeremy Bamber Website where they are stating

the pathologist confirmed in court that this first shot wouldn't have killed her and that she would have been able to walk around with this injury.)

How do we know the truth about this?



You must be asking, how did Jeremy get blamed for the killings if the police knew Sheila was alive? Remember that the original Inspector on the case Taff Jones was adamant that Jeremy was innocent. He knew the truth, that the firearms team had bungled the raid on the house, they  probably had failed to notice that Sheila was still alive with one gunshot wound to the tissue in her neck (the pathologist confirmed in court that this first shot wouldn't have killed her and that she would have been able to walk around with this injury.)

Just goes to show how much crap is posted on the jeremy bamber website then doesnt it??   

[puglove]

We have looked at this in depth and even without the good doctors various reports it is very clear that Sheila never got to her feet after the first shot.  She didn't even have the mobility to put her hands to her neck wound which is the first thing someone does when they are shot.  Shona always makes the very valid point that had she been fully conscious she would have coughed up blood and it would have been visible down the front of her nightdress.  You have to face the facts Jackie, Sheila was more or less incapacitated by the first shot, she would not have been able to find the rifle, position it and pull the trigger even if she had wanted to.

The first shot wasn't just a "tissue wound", Sheila's jugular vein was lacerated, which caused a serious internal haemorrhage which can be clearly seen contained in her throat. IMO, that blood would have both been expirated and also swallowed if that shot hadn't rendered her unconscious. So, ANY theory on the blue forum is, basically, untenable. Which is a polite way of saying "crap."

[John]

John this is taken from the Jeremy Bamber Website where they are stating

the pathologist confirmed in court that this first shot wouldn't have killed her and that she would have been able to walk around with this injury.)

How do we know the truth about this?



You must be asking, how did Jeremy get blamed for the killings if the police knew Sheila was alive? Remember that the original Inspector on the case Taff Jones was adamant that Jeremy was innocent. He knew the truth, that the firearms team had bungled the raid on the house, they  probably had failed to notice that Sheila was still alive with one gunshot wound to the tissue in her neck (the pathologist confirmed in court that this first shot wouldn't have killed her and that she would have been able to walk around with this injury.)

Just goes to show how much crap is posted on the jeremy bamber website then doesnt it??   

We don't have a full trial transcript so anything which is reported as having been said at trial is just speculation and as such has no place here.  Corroborated facts and evidence is all we are interested in, nothing else matters.

[puglove]

John this is taken from the Jeremy Bamber Website where they are stating

the pathologist confirmed in court that this first shot wouldn't have killed her and that she would have been able to walk around with this injury.)

How do we know the truth about this?



You must be asking, how did Jeremy get blamed for the killings if the police knew Sheila was alive? Remember that the original Inspector on the case Taff Jones was adamant that Jeremy was innocent. He knew the truth, that the firearms team had bungled the raid on the house, they  probably had failed to notice that Sheila was still alive with one gunshot wound to the tissue in her neck (the pathologist confirmed in court that this first shot wouldn't have killed her and that she would have been able to walk around with this injury.)

Just goes to show how much crap is posted on the jeremy bamber website then doesnt it??   

We don't have a full trial transcript so anything which is reported as having been said at trial is just speculation and as such has no place here.  Corroborated facts and evidence is all we are interested in, nothing else matters.

I think that the lack of facts and evidence is a huge problem for JB supporters. No one wants to read four old ladies calling each other "dear one" and discussing June's supposed mental health. Or the fact that Ralph was too much of a gent to knock a gun out of Sheila's hands when she was intent on murdering his wife and grandchildren. And....just why DID JB call the police (in such a long-winded way?) Ralph didn't ask him to, he asked him to "come quick." He didn't say "would you mind awfully just calling Julie, she might answer, she might not, then, if it isn't too much of a massive ball-ache, could you waste more time leafing through the phone book and ringing the local police station? Sorry to be such a bother."

[John]

We have looked at this in depth and even without the good doctors various reports it is very clear that Sheila never got to her feet after the first shot.  She didn't even have the mobility to put her hands to her neck wound which is the first thing someone does when they are shot.  Shona always makes the very valid point that had she been fully conscious she would have coughed up blood and it would have been visible down the front of her nightdress.  You have to face the facts Jackie, Sheila was more or less incapacitated by the first shot, she would not have been able to find the rifle, position it and pull the trigger even if she had wanted to.

The first shot wasn't just a "tissue wound", Sheila's jugular vein was lacerated, which caused a serious internal haemorrhage which can be clearly seen contained in her throat. IMO, that blood would have both been expirated and also swallowed if that shot hadn't rendered her unconscious. So, ANY theory on the blue forum is, basically, untenable. Which is a polite way of saying "crap."

It cannot be emphasised the extent to which Dr Vanezis was shocked when he saw the original crime scene photos of Sheila some time after the murders.  He was angry that he had not been called to check out the bodies in situ as this would have allowed him to make a more informed decision as to the cause of death.

David Boutflour put it most succinctly a few months back when he commented on camera on the Mark Williams-Thomas documentary about the condition in which Sheila was originally found with "without a hair out of place no damages...her nails were still perfect...".   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i2CjYDJGTo   Timeline 06.20

[puglove]

We have looked at this in depth and even without the good doctors various reports it is very clear that Sheila never got to her feet after the first shot.  She didn't even have the mobility to put her hands to her neck wound which is the first thing someone does when they are shot.  Shona always makes the very valid point that had she been fully conscious she would have coughed up blood and it would have been visible down the front of her nightdress.  You have to face the facts Jackie, Sheila was more or less incapacitated by the first shot, she would not have been able to find the rifle, position it and pull the trigger even if she had wanted to.

The first shot wasn't just a "tissue wound", Sheila's jugular vein was lacerated, which caused a serious internal haemorrhage which can be clearly seen contained in her throat. IMO, that blood would have both been expirated and also swallowed if that shot hadn't rendered her unconscious. So, ANY theory on the blue forum is, basically, untenable. Which is a polite way of saying "crap."

It cannot be emphasised the extent to which Dr Vanezis was shocked when he saw the original crime scene photos of Sheila some time after the murders.  He was angry that he had not been called to check out the bodies in situ as this would have allowed him to make a more informed decision as to the cause of death.

David Boutflour put it most succinctly a few months back when he commented on camera at the end of the Mark Williams-Thomas documentary about the condition in which Sheila was originally found with "without a hair out of place no damages...her nails were still perfect...".    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i2CjYDJGTo   Timeline 06.20

Dr. Vanezis was shocked, that's true, and disillusioned. By the time he viewed Sheila's body, there was blood everywhere. Because her body had been moved and disturbed. But, thanks to Mike, we can all see what Sheila looked like on the floor. Where she died. At no point was her body on the bed. And "special branch" was never written in blood. What bollocks. Madness. It was Bamber (or whoever) wiping the blood from the silencer.