UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: ShiningInLuz on September 18, 2015, 07:12:11 PM
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Out on Facebook today is the Natasha Donn/Algarve Resident take on the possibility that OG may be wound down.
Natasha is reporting that a further £2m has been allocated to OG, and that some media sources are suggesting that this is the last slice of the cake in the search, with OG given a year to reach a conclusion, or come to a halt.
Her take is that this is inaccurate, that the £2m simply represents the next approved annual budget, and that there is no current threat of a deadline.
I would have to say that is what it sounds like to me.
Sorry about a link. Google has not picked this up yet, and my life is too short to follow Natasha Donn or the Algarve Resident on Facebook. My better half gets alerts from the Algarve Resident by Internet phone and the story came through a few hours ago.
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Out on Facebook today is the Natasha Donn/Algarve Resident take on the possibility that OG may be wound down.
Natasha is reporting that a further £2m has been allocated to OG, and that some media sources are suggesting that this is the last slice of the cake in the search, with OG given a year to reach a conclusion, or come to a halt.
Her take is that this is inaccurate, that the £2m simply represents the next approved annual budget, and that there is no current threat of a deadline.
I would have to say that is what it sounds like to me.
Sorry about a link. Google has not picked this up yet, and my life is too short to follow Natasha Donn or the Algarve Resident on Facebook. My better half gets alerts from the Algarve Resident by Internet phone and the story came through a few hours ago.
sounds like good news to me. 8((()*/
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Met given 6 months and £2 million more to find Maddie
(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CPNgHa7XAAErNe3.png)
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Brit’s Maddie investigation gets £2 million cash boost, but ‘clock is ticking’
(http://i.imgur.com/Cc5v4Ht.jpg?1)
By Natasha Donn
18 September 2015
The UK’s Home Office has given the go-ahead for another £2 million (€2.7 million) to be pumped into the British police investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. But the inference is that if no new leads come to the surface in six months it could all be over.
The ‘news’ has been in the air for weeks - with newspapers of all hues in UK intimating that the Metropolitan Police probe, dubbed Operation Grange, was due to be shelved after four fruitless years in which detectives have spent over £10 million (€13,650 million).
As we reported earlier this month (click here Second British police source slams €15 million Maddie probe), former Flying Squad boss John Connor slated the investigation through the UK’s Sun newspaper - revealing then that the full costs of the probe were due to reach £12 million (over €16 million) by April 2016.
Britain’s premier force should “stop chasing shadows”, he told the paper - which today runs with the story that Grange may only have another six months left.
The Independent carries a similar story, quoting Lord Brent of Blackwood, answering a written parliamentary question on the costs of the investigation ordered by prime minister David Cameron four years ago.
“The level of funding provided to the Metropolitan Police in relation to this investigation is reviewed regularly and will continue to be monitored,” he said.
But to be fair, the Independent does not mention the six-month deadline suggested by the Sun.
The time-limit seems to be more focused on the amount of money to be made available for the whole of 2016
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Both papers report that the parents of Madeleine - who went missing over eight years ago, aged three - have said they are “extremely grateful” for the long-running police investigation.
Weeks ago, in a rush of Madeleine stories which came just as the appeal by former detective Gonçalo Amaral was accepted by Lisbon’s Appellate Court (click here Rush of UK “Maddie” stories precedes British PM’s visit to Portugal tomorrow), the McCann’s told newspapers they were prepared for the winding down of Grange, and had “kept some money back from the Find Madeleine Fund in case it is needed for an ongoing search”.
The Resident has repeatedly mailed the McCann’s press spokesman for an explanation on this statement. As one of our readers queried in a letter in last week’s edition: “Surely that is precisely what the Find Madeleine Fund was set up to do? Why should any money be kept back from it? And what is the rest of the money being used for, if not to fund an ongoing search?”
But to date, there have been no replies.
Commenting on the length of the Grange investigation, the Independent writes: “Numerous people have been questioned and sightings have been reported since (Madeleine’s) disappearance, but there are still many questions about what happened or where she is now”
http://portugalresident.com/brit%E2%80%99s-maddie-investigation-gets-%C2%A32-million-cash-boost-but-%E2%80%98clock-is-ticking%E2%80%99#sthash.bCtcGty5.dpuf
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UK police work on Madeleine McCann case 'has cost £10m' so far
(http://i.imgur.com/IHi1qHi.jpg?1)
18 September 2015
The investigation by UK police into the disappearance in Portugal in 2007 of the then three-year-old Madeleine McCann has cost more than £10 million (€14 million), according to a Home Office minister.
(http://www.theportugalnews.com/uploads/news/MADELEINE___SEARCH_3.JPG)
In answer to a question in the House of Lords, Michael Bates said that £10.1 million had been spent by the end of June, and that for 2015 as a whole a further £2 million was budgeted.
Madeleine McCann disappeared from a holiday resort in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz on 3 May 2007, a few days before her fourth birthday. An investigation by Portuguese police failed to find her, or lodge any charges against anyone, and was closed in 2008.
After an appeal by the girl's parents to the UK prime minister, David Cameron, London's Metropolitan Police in 2011 launched its own investigation into her disappearance, dubbed Operation Grange, with 30 letters of request having since been sent to the authorities in 30 countries, including Portugal, and several procedures having been undertaken in and around Praia da Luz at the Met's behest.
In the meantime, the case has formally been reopened in Portugal as well.
Over the years, the case has attracted unprecedented public interest in both countries.
http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/uk-police-work-on-madeleine-mccann-case-has-cost-10m-so-far/35992
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Letters of request to thirty countries? Wow
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It really doesn't sound like the parents are in the frame does it folks?
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If it closes it will close with simultaneous PR efforts, including, probably, publication of the second book. May would be the logical time for that.
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UK police work on Madeleine McCann case 'has cost £10m' so far
(http://i.imgur.com/IHi1qHi.jpg?1)
18 September 2015
The investigation by UK police into the disappearance in Portugal in 2007 of the then three-year-old Madeleine McCann has cost more than £10 million (€14 million), according to a Home Office minister.
(http://www.theportugalnews.com/uploads/news/MADELEINE___SEARCH_3.JPG)
In answer to a question in the House of Lords, Michael Bates said that £10.1 million had been spent by the end of June, and that for 2015 as a whole a further £2 million was budgeted.
Madeleine McCann disappeared from a holiday resort in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz on 3 May 2007, a few days before her fourth birthday. An investigation by Portuguese police failed to find her, or lodge any charges against anyone, and was closed in 2008.
After an appeal by the girl's parents to the UK prime minister, David Cameron, London's Metropolitan Police in 2011 launched its own investigation into her disappearance, dubbed Operation Grange, with 30 letters of request having since been sent to the authorities in 30 countries, including Portugal, and several procedures having been undertaken in and around Praia da Luz at the Met's behest.
In the meantime, the case has formally been reopened in Portugal as well.
Over the years, the case has attracted unprecedented public interest in both countries.
http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/uk-police-work-on-madeleine-mccann-case-has-cost-10m-so-far/35992
30 more countries.
30 more ways to clutch at straws.
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so Grange has been given enough money to investigate for another year...what a vote of confidence...this must come as a terrible disappointment to those who expected it to close
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It has found nothing.
Hence the requests to 30 countries.
Clutching at straws doesn't even come close to describing the situation.
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It has found nothing.
Hence the requests to 30 countries.
Clutching at straws doesn't even come close to describing the situation.
in your opinion which you agree is worthless
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in your opinion which you agree is worthless
I as others will judge by results.
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I as others will judge by results.
as will I
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Why would the Met get £2m more if they had not made any progress, particularly with all the tabloid discontent about the amount spent so far?
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Why would the Met get £2m more if they had not made any progress, particularly with all the tabloid discontent about the amount spent so far?
with money so tight the investigation must be making progress to warrant a further 2 million
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................and when it gets wound up with nothing to show, will Cameron or SY apologize for wasting tax payers money on a wild goose chase ?
The money would have been better spent for example, on medical research.
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Actually, it would be interesting to see where and what all this diverted money from the tax payer has been spent on.
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................and when it gets wound up with nothing to show, will Cameron or SY apologize for wasting tax payers money on a wild goose chase ?
The money would have been better spent for example, on medical research.
When did it become "wasting taxpayers money on a wild goose chase" to carry out an investigation into the case of a British child missing abroad?
**Snip
Official figures show that the eight-month military intervention unleashed by David Cameron in support of rebels fighting Colonel Gadaffi’s regime cost £320 million. But efforts to stabilise the country following Gaddafi’s death and the collapse of his government have amounted to just £25m, which has failed to prevent Libya from sliding into chaos as feuding militias battle for control.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13499912.UK_government_spent_13_times_more_bombing_Libya_than_on_rebuilding_post_war/
Do you naively suppose that money taken from looking for Madeleine McCann will find its way into medical research??
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When did it become "wasting taxpayers money on a wild goose chase" to carry out an investigation into the case of a British child missing abroad?
**Snip
Official figures show that the eight-month military intervention unleashed by David Cameron in support of rebels fighting Colonel Gadaffi’s regime cost £320 million. But efforts to stabilise the country following Gaddafi’s death and the collapse of his government have amounted to just £25m, which has failed to prevent Libya from sliding into chaos as feuding militias battle for control.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13499912.UK_government_spent_13_times_more_bombing_Libya_than_on_rebuilding_post_war/
Do you naively suppose that money taken from looking for Madeleine McCann will find its way into medical research??
I was waiting for something along those lines.
What happened in Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and elsewhere, lies in the hand of the western leaders who thought they knew better, didn't plan for the aftermath of their actions, and have ended up causing misery to millions. We now see the results of their arrogant stupidity.
As to medical research, rather more valuable would you say, than spending money on the case of a girl who disappeared without trace, and in the view of the vast majority of people is already dead.
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I was waiting for something along those lines.
What happened in Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and elsewhere, lies in the hand of the western leaders who thought they knew better, didn't plan for the aftermath of their actions, and have ended up causing misery to millions. We now see the results of their arrogant stupidity.
As to medical research, rather more valuable would you say, than spending money on the case of a girl who disappeared without trace, and in the view of the vast majority of people is already dead.
It is taxpayers money nonetheless ... badly spent at the time and with the repercussions reverberating now and for some time to come.
The money being spent on the search for Madeleine McCann is a drop in the ocean by comparison.
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It is taxpayers money nonetheless ... badly spent at the time and with the repercussions reverberating now and for some time to come.
The money being spent on the search for Madeleine McCann is a drop in the ocean by comparison.
No kidding.
So answer this one.
Which is more worthwhile ?
Medical Research or this case ?
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No kidding.
So answer this one.
Which is more worthwhile ?
Medical Research or this case ?
Are you suggesting that the money for Madeleine McCann's case is being diverted from medical research?
If you have proof of that please post it to inform us all.
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Are you suggesting that the money for Madeleine McCann's case is being diverted from medical research?
If you have proof of that please post it to inform us all.
That's not what I said.
Now which is more valuable, medical research or investigation of this case ?
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If this investigation is in any way going to aid the prevention of this happening again then it will be money well spent.
There are s..m bags who think that stealing children is easy money.
As for 30 Countries, I have long suspected that Madeleine is far away from Portugal and could be difficult to recover.
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That's not what I said.
Now which is more valuable, medical research or investigation of this case ?
They both have their own worth. Neither one or the other is more important. Although at this point in time the search for a missing child is more important.
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They both have their own worth. Neither one or the other is more important. Although at this point in time the search for a missing child is more important.
Why ?
When not one trace of her has emerged in nearly 8 and a half years.
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Why ?
When not one trace of her has emerged in nearly 8 and a half years.
and why is maddie the only missing child getting 11 millon dollars spent on her?? is she a royal or something ??
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and why is maddie the only missing child getting 11 millon dollars spent on her?? is she a royal or something ??
Ask Sadie.
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Ask Sadie.
and before the supporters say i hate maddie etc you know i dont but you can understand why people from other countrys dont understand even you in the uk dont right?
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Why ?
When not one trace of her has emerged in nearly 8 and a half years.
Madeleine was perhaps more findable eight+ years ago, but because she was not found, does not mean that she is not there to be found and after a hiatus between 2008 and 2011 deserves to be actively sought.
There is a certain mentality at work in the question ... "Why Madeleine McCann why ... ... ?"
I believe that lessons were learned from the only other comparable case involving a British child ... Ben Needham.
Should similar cases to these arise in the future the lessons derived from Madeleine's case ~ particularly in working with law enforcement agencies of another country ~ will only be of benefit to any child unfortunate enough to vanish in like circumstances.
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Madeleine was perhaps more findable eight+ years ago, but because she was not found, does not mean that she is not there to be found and after a hiatus between 2008 and 2011 deserves to be actively sought.
There is a certain mentality at work in the question ... "Why Madeleine McCann why ... ... ?"
I believe that lessons were learned from the only other comparable case involving a British child ... Ben Needham.
Should similar cases to these arise in the future the lessons derived from Madeleine's case ~ particularly in working with law enforcement agencies of another country ~ will only be of benefit to any child unfortunate enough to vanish in like circumstances.
You assume she can be found ?
Therefore you must think she is alive.
So give me logical possibilities of where and whom she could be and with.
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UK police work on Madeleine McCann case 'has cost £10m' so far
(http://i.imgur.com/IHi1qHi.jpg?1)
18 September 2015
The investigation by UK police into the disappearance in Portugal in 2007 of the then three-year-old Madeleine McCann has cost more than £10 million (€14 million), according to a Home Office minister.
(http://www.theportugalnews.com/uploads/news/MADELEINE___SEARCH_3.JPG)
In answer to a question in the House of Lords, Michael Bates said that £10.1 million had been spent by the end of June, and that for 2015 as a whole a further £2 million was budgeted.
Madeleine McCann disappeared from a holiday resort in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz on 3 May 2007, a few days before her fourth birthday. An investigation by Portuguese police failed to find her, or lodge any charges against anyone, and was closed in 2008.
After an appeal by the girl's parents to the UK prime minister, David Cameron, London's Metropolitan Police in 2011 launched its own investigation into her disappearance, dubbed Operation Grange, with 30 letters of request having since been sent to the authorities in 30 countries, including Portugal, and several procedures having been undertaken in and around Praia da Luz at the Met's behest.
In the meantime, the case has formally been reopened in Portugal as well.
Over the years, the case has attracted unprecedented public interest in both countries.
http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/uk-police-work-on-madeleine-mccann-case-has-cost-10m-so-far/35992
Is that 30 letters to 30 countries or one each to 30 countries?
We are led to believe that Portugal has only received about half a dozen.
Confusing.
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If this investigation is in any way going to aid the prevention of this happening again then it will be money well spent.
There are s..m bags who think that stealing children is easy money.
As for 30 Countries, I have long suspected that Madeleine is far away from Portugal and could be difficult to recover.
We don't know what the content of them was about. I'm not even certain if "30 countries" is accurate or whether 30 ILORs were sent to a smaller number of countries.
If Spain and Switzerland were on the list, it could have been about seeing if there was any connection with the cases of poor Mari Luz and Ylenia. Or checking criminal records or current whereabouts of potential suspects. Or - quite likely IMO - getting information from overseas phone companies to identify who they belonged to.
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Why ?
When not one trace of her has emerged in nearly 8 and a half years.
It is the fact that not one trace of her has emerged that leads me to believe that she could well be alive.
Why do I think the search for her is more important at this point? Medical Research will always go on, and the money will always be found.
The search for Madeleine is finite, anyone can see that. But at the moment we do not know what has been found so far, so if Operation Grange and The PJ think it is worthwhile then it must continue.
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and why is maddie the only missing child getting 11 millon dollars spent on her?? is she a royal or something ??
She is a missing child. A British child who was stolen abroad. It really is that simple for Britain.
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It is the fact that not one trace of her has emerged that leads me to believe that she could well be alive.
Why do I think the search for her is more important at this point? Medical Research will always go on, and the money will always be found.
The search for Madeleine is finite, anyone can see that. But at the moment we do not know what has been found so far, so if Operation Grange and The PJ think it is worthwhile then it must continue.
What is more likely, is that because she hasn't been found and not one trace of her, she is unfortunately dead.
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and before the supporters say i hate maddie etc you know i dont but you can understand why people from other countrys dont understand even you in the uk dont right?
It isn't really for other people from other countries to understand, if they don't want to. I understand, which is all that matters to me.
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You assume she can be found ?
Therefore you must think she is alive.
So give me logical possibilities of where and whom she could be and with.
You already know the logical possibilities, Stephen.
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You already know the logical possibilities, Stephen.
Of course I do.
...and i don't think either scenario stands up to logical scrutiny.
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Of course I do.
...and i don't think either scenario stands up to logical scrutiny.
in police work stephen 48 hours aftera child vanishes is crucial after that more then likley the child is dead it is the way it works here anyway
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What is more likely, is that because she hasn't been found and not one trace of her, she is unfortunately dead.
Not more or less likely, Stephen. It is not possible to define a percentage. And even if it was then even one percent of the likelihood of her being alive would be sufficient if she actually is.
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Of course I do.
...and i don't think either scenario stands up to logical scrutiny.
Fortunately, your logical scrutiny is not important.
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in police work stephen 48 hours aftera child vanishes is crucial after that more then likley the child is dead it is the way it works here anyway
So Tasmania gives up after 48 hours, does it?
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It is the fact that not one trace of her has emerged that leads me to believe that she could well be alive.
Why do I think the search for her is more important at this point? Medical Research will always go on, and the money will always be found.
The search for Madeleine is finite, anyone can see that. But at the moment we do not know what has been found so far, so if Operation Grange and The PJ think it is worthwhile then it must continue.
Succinctly said Eleanor.
I wish people would just sit back and allow the PJ and SY to do their jobs; they will recommend a wind down if and when they they reach the end of the road.
Bearing in mind they are under constant review to justify expenditure ... as long as it is being funded, there must be adequate reasons to justify that.
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Sounds like a lot of spin by certain people who want to influence the public in order to put pressure on OG to close the investigation. I don't understand why some are complaining about the amount of money spent on the case, do any of us know what the average amount for an investigation comes to? Furthermore, if this were to be a whitewash, the police would have wrapped it up ages ago. We also have no idea what results there have been so far, as OG has no obligation to keep the public up to date and rightly so.
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Sounds like a lot of spin by certain people who want to influence the public in order to put pressure on OG to close the investigation. I don't understand why some are complaining about the amount of money spent on the case, do any of us know what the average amount for an investigation comes to? Furthermore, if this were to be a whitewash, the police would have wrapped it up ages ago. We also have no idea what results there have been so far, as OG has no obligation to keep the public up to date and rightly so.
8((()*/ 8@??)( 8@??)( 8((()*/
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Succinctly said Eleanor.
I wish people would just sit back and allow the PJ and SY to do their jobs; they will recommend a wind down if and when they they reach the end of the road.
Bearing in mind they are under constant review to justify expenditure ... as long as it is being funded, there must be adequate reasons to justify that.
Some people seem to think that Scotland Yard are on a free jolly. Not sure what they think The PJ are up to.
But anything that I think is just speculation. Yes, I could tell you all a tale of my most logical conclusions, but I'm not going to. My conclusions could be correct, and the last thing I am going to do is to warn the barstards.
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Sounds like a lot of spin by certain people who want to influence the public in order to put pressure on OG to close the investigation. I don't understand why some are complaining about the amount of money spent on the case, do any of us know what the average amount for an investigation comes to? Furthermore, if this were to be a whitewash, the police would have wrapped it up ages ago. We also have no idea what results there have been so far, as OG has no obligation to keep the public up to date and rightly so.
Thank you for that. Jolly well said.
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Fortunately, your logical scrutiny is not important.
Results Eleanor.
There aren't any from SY.
Just more letters of request.
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Results Eleanor.
There aren't any from SY.
Just more letters of request.
so what has SY discovered so far
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so what has SY discovered so far
Not Madeleine.
Nor how she disappeared. 8(0(*
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Not Madeleine.
Nor how she disappeared. 8(0(*
the little 4 year old boy willams case is going to the NSW coronor here in australia it has been exactly a year since he went missing ... and nothing found at all yet
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the little 4 year old boy willams case is going to the NSW coronor here in australia it has been exactly a year since he went missing ... and nothing found at all yet
He'll be dead by your reckoning. So perhaps you should tell them to stop wasting money.
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the little 4 year old boy willams case is going to the NSW coronor here in australia it has been exactly a year since he went missing ... and nothing found at all yet
why waste money on a coroners hearing...he's dead...move on...spend the money on medical research
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Not Madeleine.
Nor how she disappeared. 8(0(*
so again...what have they found
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so again...what have they found
Clearly, neither of those two key criteria.
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Clearly, neither of those two key criteria.
I asked what they have found not what they haven't found...here's some help with the answer...you don't know
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This so-called search for Maddie and the money squandered on it must be one of the greatest follies of modern policing. What of the UK's other missing children, are they going to have £12m spent searching for them too?
SY don't even know for sure what befell Maddie for heavens sake, the claimed abduction has never been established for sure and imo will never be.
A face saving exercise if there ever was one!!
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This so-called search for Maddie and the money squandered on it must be one of the greatest follies of modern policing. What of the UK's other missing children, are they going to have £12m spent searching for them too?
SY don't even know for sure what befell Maddie for heavens sake, the claimed abduction has never been established for sure and imo will never be.
A face saving exercise if there ever was one!!
face saving for whom
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This so-called search for Maddie and the money squandered on it must be one of the greatest follies of modern policing. What of the UK's other missing children, are they going to have £12m spent searching for them too?
SY don't even know for sure what befell Maddie for heavens sake, the claimed abduction has never been established for sure and imo will never be.
A face saving exercise if there ever was one!!
We don't always agree Angelo, but we do on this.
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We don't always agree Angelo, but we do on this.
totally agree with you both
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This so-called search for Maddie and the money squandered on it must be one of the greatest follies of modern policing. What of the UK's other missing children, are they going to have £12m spent searching for them too?
SY don't even know for sure what befell Maddie for heavens sake, the claimed abduction has never been established for sure and imo will never be.
A face saving exercise if there ever was one!!
we don't know what SY have found.....do you really believe they have been awarded a further 2 million on the back of no progress
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we don't know what SY have found.....do you really believe they have been awarded a further 2 million on the back of no progress
Scotland Yard have found zilch, nada, nought.. As Stephen put it earlier in this thread, they are clutching at ever decaying straws. Why don't the McCanns pay for the continuing investigation if they deem it to be so worthwhile, its not as if they can't afford it? The parents of other missing children like Ben must be sick to their stomach by the way money has been thrown at the Maddie case while their children are effectively forgotten.
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We don't always agree Angelo, but we do on this.
We do know they have sent 30 more letters out..l..
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Scotland Yard have found zilch, nada, nought.. As Stephen put it earlier in this thread, they are clutching at ever decaying straws. Why don't the McCanns pay for the continuing investigation if they deem it to be so worthwhile, its not as if they can't afford it? The parents of other missing children like Ben must be sick to their stomach by the way money has been thrown at the Madrid case.
because they know they wont find maddie?
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because they know they wont find maddie?
Because she never left the Algarve.
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Because she never left the Algarve.
why is so much denial in this case?? the likes of ..... and others are in total denial about the real situation?? it baffles me to no end??? the mcanns could care less about their support
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Scotland Yard have found zilch, nada, nought.. As Stephen put it earlier in this thread, they are clutching at ever decaying straws. Why don't the McCanns pay for the continuing investigation if they deem it to be so worthwhile, its not as if they can't afford it? The parents of other missing children like Ben must be sick to their stomach by the way money has been thrown at the Maddie case while their children are effectively forgotten.
you are stating opinion as fact...........and Stephen will tell you what your opinion is worth...zilch,nada,nought
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According to some on this forum because no trace has been found MM must remain alive.
English law generally assumes a person is dead if, after seven years:
There has been no evidence that they still live.
The people most likely to have heard from them have had no contact.
Inquiries made of that person have had no success.
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According to some on this forum because no trace has been found MM must remain alive.
English law generally assumes a person is dead if, after seven years:
There has been no evidence that they still live.
The people most likely to have heard from them have had no contact.
Inquiries made of that person have had no success.
your logic and understanding is getting worse.......posters here understand that Maddie MAY still be alive..not MUST
As for your second statement read up the real facts
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your logic and understanding is getting worse.......posters here understand that Maddie MAY still be alive..not MUST
As for your second statement read up the real facts
So where may she still be alive ?
With a paedophile or family dave ?
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Scotland Yard have found zilch, nada, nought.. As Stephen put it earlier in this thread, they are clutching at ever decaying straws. Why don't the McCanns pay for the continuing investigation if they deem it to be so worthwhile, its not as if they can't afford it? The parents of other missing children like Ben must be sick to their stomach by the way money has been thrown at the Maddie case while their children are effectively forgotten.
Absolutely right. 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
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So where may she still be alive ?
With a paedophile or family dave ?
Im stating a fact and have no wish to speculate
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Im stating a fact and have no wish to speculate
Of course you don't. 8)-)))
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Scotland Yard have found zilch, nada, nought.. As Stephen put it earlier in this thread, they are clutching at ever decaying straws. Why don't the McCanns pay for the continuing investigation if they deem it to be so worthwhile, its not as if they can't afford it? The parents of other missing children like Ben must be sick to their stomach by the way money has been thrown at the Maddie case while their children are effectively forgotten.
More like it is you and your fellow sceptics who are sick to the stomach with the continued support for Maddie and her family
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More like it is you and your fellow sceptics who are sick to the stomach with the continued support for Maddie and her family
Oh dear, here we go again.
&%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
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your logic and understanding is getting worse.......posters here understand that Maddie MAY still be alive..not MUST
As for your second statement read up the real facts
Let's all just take it as read you think I am an ignorant tw*t then you don't have to keep prefacing your posts with such similar nonsense.
Mind you if past performance is anything to go by it will leave you with little of significance to say.
OK mods whoosh it and give me points 8(>((
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Let's all just take it as read you think I am an ignorant tw*t then you don't have to keep prefacing your posts with such similar nonsense.
Mind you if past performance is anything to go by it will leave you with little of significance to say.
OK mods whoosh it and give me points 8(>((
well if you act like one..
the law does not assume someone is dead after 7 years....just as maddie has not been presumed dead
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All members are reminded of the forum rules.
Please avoid making personal comments which are less than flattering.
Admin
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Oh dear, here we go again.
&%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
it happens when they have ran out of excuses
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This so-called search for Maddie and the money squandered on it must be one of the greatest follies of modern policing. What of the UK's other missing children, are they going to have £12m spent searching for them too?
SY don't even know for sure what befell Maddie for heavens sake, the claimed abduction has never been established for sure and imo will never be.
A face saving exercise if there ever was one!!
If so, then why are they spending another £2m on it? Surely, they would have cut their losses a while back if what you say is true.
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If so, then why are they spending another £2m on it? Surely, they would have cut their losses a while back if what you say is true.
It's a political investigation and therefore probably still up to the politicians.
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It's a political investigation and therefore probably still up to the politicians.
its a police investigation...the investigation could only be re opened if new evidence was found.
SY are under strict instructions from the Portuguese to say nothing..it must be highly embarrassing for Portugal to have SY there...that's why we are hearing nothing...imo
when the investigation ends then we will know what has happened...I simply do not believe 12 million is being spent for nothing....and there is no evidence this is the case
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30 letters.
They are chasing tails.
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It's a political investigation and therefore probably still up to the politicians.
What does that mean exactly, and why is it a political investigation? Why would politicians wish to spend more money on something they knew to be futile?
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30 letters.
They are chasing tails.
You should listen to what john OConnor has to say. He's very supportive of the McCanns and thinks the investigation should continue...looks like the press have totally misrepresented what he had to say
https://m.facebook.com/groups/586684324760979?view=permalink&id=883430645086344&refid=9&_rdr#_=_
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You should listen to what john OConnor has to say. He's very supportive of the McCanns and thinks the investigation should continue...looks like the press have totally misrepresented what he had to say
Well in the UK we call them inquiries. 8)--))
Invariably intended to find nothing, at the cost of a lot of money.
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Well in the UK we call them inquiries. 8)--))
Invariably intended to find nothing, at the cost of a lot of money.
Looks like everyone who matters thinks Grange should continue.... And those that don't matter.. Think as you do
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Looks like everyone who matters thinks Grange should continue.... And those that don't matter.. Think as you do
Well they can spend money,but...
The haven't found Madeleine or how she disappeared from the apartment. 8(0(*
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As I have said before, the ones who are most interested in seeing this investigation closed are Kate and Gerry McCann. They were so relieved when the case was shelved and their status as "arguidos" removed in 2008. When OG has eliminated all the possible and impossible suspects, who will be left?
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As I have said before, the ones who are most interested in seeing this investigation closed are Kate and Gerry McCann. They were so relieved when the case was shelved and their status as "arguidos" removed in 2008. When OG has eliminated all the possible and impossible suspects, who will be left?
Err....what is your evidence for this daft statement?
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Well they can spend money,but...
The haven't found Madeleine or how she disappeared from the apartment. 8(0(*
How do you know what they have or haven't found? Don't you want an investigation to find out what happened to Madeleine? I do and I believe that OG are honest and not involved in any kind of cover up.
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Err....what is your evidence for this daft statement?
It's logical. Who else has a PR man to influence the press to print these stories and campaign for the closing of the investigation.
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How do you know what they have or haven't found? Don't you want an investigation to find out what happened to Madeleine? I do and I believe that OG are honest and not involved in any kind of cover up.
You are quite entitled to think this is an open and fair investigation Montclair.
I just don't believe it is the case.
Now if SY had said at the start that all possibilities would be investigated, then fair enough, I would have no problem, but they never have, and like many other people I don't believe this case will be solved.
I would like to be proved wrong.
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It's logical. Who else has a PR man to influence the press to print these stories and campaign for the closing of the investigation.
@)(++(* That's the most deluded thing I've read all week (and I've been debating with some very deluded people elsewhere I can tell you!) So - you think Clarrie is getting the press to write moany articles in the papers about the length and cost of the investigation...? How utterly bizarre. Don't you think a far better story would be: "McCanns ask PR man to ask us to call for case to be closed"? Now that WOULD be a far more interesting story (if it were true). I suppose you believe Clarrie controls the media though.
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It appears that the Facebook pages we (my other half) are connected to in the Algarve are abuzz with this story, and are solidly and virulently anti-McCann.
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As I have said before, the ones who are most interested in seeing this investigation closed are Kate and Gerry McCann. They were so relieved when the case was shelved and their status as "arguidos" removed in 2008. When OG has eliminated all the possible and impossible suspects, who will be left?
do you expect this to be before or after Corbyn's runaway election victory
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It appears that the Facebook pages we (my other half) are connected to in the Algarve are abuzz with this story, and are solidly and virulently anti-McCann.
I wouldn't have expected anything else, would you?
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It appears that the Facebook pages we (my other half) are connected to in the Algarve are abuzz with this story, and are solidly and virulently anti-McCann.
That is interesting, Shining, is the virulence directed at Madeleine McCann and her parents in Portuguese or is it in English?
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You should listen to what john OConnor has to say. He's very supportive of the McCanns and thinks the investigation should continue...looks like the press have totally misrepresented what he had to say
https://m.facebook.com/groups/586684324760979?view=permalink&id=883430645086344&refid=9&_rdr#_=_
Thanks for that Davel ... John O'Connor was very precise in what he had to say about the unique nature of Madeleine's case and why it is continuing and why it should continue until the Senior Officer is content all avenues have been exhausted.
One wonders why time after time we actually believe the rubbish written in the press ... it is reaching the stage that it is only going to be possible to accept what is said if as in the link you have posted we hear it directly from the horse's mouth.
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That is interesting, Shining, is the virulence directed at Madeleine McCann and her parents in Portuguese or is it in English?
Just so we are correct, there is no virulence directed at Madeleine.
Of the stuff that is coming out against the parents, around half is English ex-pat and around half is Portuguese who speak decent English.
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Just so we are correct, there is no virulence directed at Madeleine.
Of the stuff that is coming out against the parents, around half is English ex-pat and around half is Portuguese who speak decent English.
I find it difficult to differentiate one from the other.
Madeleine McCann's parents have an aim in life to find out what happened to their daughter and have her returned to the bosom of her family.
Interference, obstruction and thwarting of the parents in this aim ... is most definitely not in Madeleine's best interest.
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I find it difficult to differentiate one from the other.
Madeleine McCann's parents have an aim in life to find out what happened to their daughter and have her returned to the bosom of her family.
Interference, obstruction and thwarting of the parents in this aim ... is most definitely not in Madeleine's best interest.
If you cannot differentiate between a suspicion over a set of parents and their actions and behaviours (which is NOT a crime btw however much you try to make it sound like one) from the likely fate of an innocent toddler left to fend for herself, then nothng will help much I imagine
You will of course detail in due course, what actions by the Mccanns have been thwarted, what have they tried to do but were stopped from doing due to "virulence against a toddler"?
You may also as well say any policeman or force whose job it is to suspect people, investigate and solve a case who might think some of this just doesn't add up, a Madeleine h ater , to borrow the phrase from one or more of your more salubrious (not) compatriots
&%+((£
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How do you know what they have or haven't found? Don't you want an investigation to find out what happened to Madeleine? I do and I believe that OG are honest and not involved in any kind of cover up.
Agreed, and I think there is a good chance they may be well on the way to solving it.
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How do you know what they have or haven't found? Don't you want an investigation to find out what happened to Madeleine? I do and I believe that OG are honest and not involved in any kind of cover up.
In which case, when Andy Redwood stressed that neither the McCanns nor any of their friends are suspects, you believe him?
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If you cannot differentiate between a suspicion over a set of parents and their actions and behaviours (which is NOT a crime btw however much you try to make it sound like one) from the likely fate of an innocent toddler left to fend for herself, then nothng will help much I imagine
You will of course detail in due course, what actions by the Mccanns have been thwarted, what have they tried to do but were stopped from doing due to "virulence against a toddler"?
You may also as well say any policeman or force whose job it is to suspect people, investigate and solve a case who might think some of this just doesn't add up, a Madeleine h ater , to borrow the phrase from one or more of your more salubrious (not) compatriots
&%+((£
I think there is a possibility that you have failed to take note of the fact that the Polícia Judiciária and Scotland yard investigations have discarded Mr Amaral's flawed theory and are actively looking for the person/s responsible for the crime against Madeleine McCann.
That comes after an extensive review of all the available evidence. Which has led to people being invited to participate in police inquiries some as witnesses some as arguidos none of whom are Madeleine's family or any of their friends.
That SY have received further funding for a year and the PJ continue also continue with their inquiry is indicative of the fact that they haven't exhausted all investigative possibilities.
There is no doubt neither law enforcement agency are interested in Madeleine's parents or their friends.
There is no doubt both law enforcement agencies are actively pursuing a case of stranger abduction.
If you are content to go along with thinking a bunch of armchair detectives on the internet know better than the professionals ... that is your privilege.
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I'm not qualified to "look into anything further" either in this criminal case or any other particularly when I am not in full possession of all the facts surrounding it.
The people who are qualified and who are in possession of all known facts have just received funding on that basis for another year's pursuit of criminals who stole a little girl from her bed eight years ago .
That is good enough for me and I wish them every success in their endeavours on behalf of Madeleine McCann.
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I'm not qualified to "look into anything further" either in this criminal case or any other particularly when I am not in full possession of all the facts surrounding it.
The people who are qualified and who are in possession of all known facts have just received funding on that basis for another year's pursuit of criminals who stole a little girl from her bed eight years ago .
That is good enough for me and I wish them every success in their endeavours on behalf of Madeleine McCann.
'..possession of all known facts..'
That means investigating all aspects of the case, and all possible scenarios.
Yet SY certainly don't have appeared to do that.
BHH said it was a murder inquiry.
Redwood was a believer in abduction, no matter there were no forensics to back it up, let alone anything else.
Now we have the 30 letters of request.
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'..possession of all known facts..'
That means investigating all aspects of the case, and all possible scenarios.
Yet SY certainly don't have appeared to do that.
BHH said it was a murder inquiry.
Redwood was a believer in abduction, no matter there were no forensics to back it up, let alone anything else.
Now we have the 30 letters of request.
That is a rather negative approach, Stephen.
It is not for members of the public to 'question' an active police investigation ... particularly one involving a missing child.
You state "Now we have the 30 letters of request." as if it were heinous and as if you knew to whom they were addressed, their content, what issues they were concerned with, when they were sent etc ... so what exactly might your objection be to the police perhaps officially contacting other law enforcement agencies in a missing child investigation?
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That is a rather negative approach, Stephen.
It is not for members of the public to 'question' an active police investigation ... particularly one involving a missing child.
You state "Now we have the 30 letters of request." as if it were heinous and as if you knew to whom they were addressed, their content, what issues they were concerned with, when they were sent etc ... so what exactly might your objection be to the police perhaps officially contacting other law enforcement agencies in a missing child investigation?
Cliche time again Brietta.
Just tell me if SY has achieved so much in this investigation they needed 30 more letters ?
After all, where do the majority of investigations end up ?
As a matter of record discussing the effectiveness of the Police, I heard on the news the other day, they only solve 4% of reported burglaries.
Do you have any idea of the overall % of reported crimes which do get solved ?
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Cliche time again Brietta.
Just tell me if SY has achieved so much in this investigation they needed 30 more letters ?
After all, where do the majority of investigations end up ?
As a matter of record discussing the effectiveness of the Police, I heard on the news the other day, they only solve 4% of reported burglaries.
Do you have any idea of the overall % of reported crimes which do get solved ?
Fortunately your opinion is of no importance. Try listening to the John O'Connor interview...a well respected ex senior policeman. H e explains why Grange should continue...why it has cost so much and why a similar amount has not been given to the Needham case.
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Having listened to John O'Connor any idea that Mitchel controls the press is quite ludicrous. In a live interview O'Connor was incredibly supportive of the McCanns yet the press took a couple of his quotes to completely misrepresent him
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Is O'Connor's opinion of any value, or is it just yet another 'expert' , albeit one that you clearly favour ?
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Is O'Connor's opinion of any value, or is it just yet another 'expert' , albeit one that you clearly favour ?
as an expert his opinion has to have value...expert opinion is classed as evidence.....
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Is O'Connor's opinion of any value, or is it just yet another 'expert' , albeit one that you clearly favour ?
when the press claimed he was calling for Grange to be closed he had a lot of support from the "experts" on here
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Is O'Connor's opinion of any value, or is it just yet another 'expert' , albeit one that you clearly favour ?
Quite right Jassi.
...and just because O'Connor thinks it should carry on regardless of the fact it has failed to find Madeleine, or find how she disappeared.
O'Connor is merely a mouthpiece for the SY team and that's all that he is.
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as an expert his opinion has to have value...expert opinion is classed as evidence.....
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
So is O'Connor on the case ? 8)--))
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as an expert his opinion has to have value...expert opinion is classed as evidence.....
I seem to recall that John Stalker, another 'expert' had an opinion as well.
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@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
So is O'Connor on the case ? 8)--))
you obviously don't understand the principles of scientific evidence...expert opinion is level 5
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you obviously don't understand the principles of scientific evidence...expert opinion is level 5
Is he involved in the case ?
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I seem to recall that John Stalker, another 'expert' had an opinion as well.
yes he felt they were hiding something...that's very vague..perhaps how regular the checks were I think he said
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Is he involved in the case ?
are you.....he does not have to be involved to have an opinion...listen to his interview...you will hate it
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John Tully, who chairs the Met Police Federation, which represents rank-and-file officers, said: 'It is impacting on workloads – we have still got detectives with caseloads of up to 30 crimes each.
'It is laudable, but there are a number of detectives on it who could be tackling crimes in London that are solvable. It was never a Met crime. I'm not saying we should close it down, but someone in a senior position should look at it.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3219114/Bill-Scotland-Yard-investigation-Madeleine-McCann-disappearance-hits-11MILLION-no-arrests-former-police-chief-calls-end.html#ixzz3mGWGAyFl
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
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yes he felt they were hiding something...that's very vague..perhaps how regular the checks were I think he said
I believe he said they were hiding a big secret.
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John Tully, who chairs the Met Police Federation, which represents rank-and-file officers, said: 'It is impacting on workloads – we have still got detectives with caseloads of up to 30 crimes each.
'It is laudable, but there are a number of detectives on it who could be tackling crimes in London that are solvable. It was never a Met crime. I'm not saying we should close it down, but someone in a senior position should look at it.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3219114/Bill-Scotland-Yard-investigation-Madeleine-McCann-disappearance-hits-11MILLION-no-arrests-former-police-chief-calls-end.html#ixzz3mGWGAyFl
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
nothing wrong with that..I agree....perhaps someone in a senior position has looked at it
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Is he involved in the case ?
Are any of them ? They seem to be mostly superannuated police officers desperate for a few minutes of attention.
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are you.....he does not have to be involved to have an opinion...listen to his interview...you will hate it
What a pathetic repsonse.
What have SY found ?
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I believe he said they were hiding a big secret.
I believe you are wrong..that may have been a sensationalist headline.
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Are any of them ? They seem to be mostly superannuated police officers desperate for a few minutes of attention.
Quite right.
Likewise, they are paid for their opinions.
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What a pathetic repsonse.
What have SY found ?
boring Stephen...I have answered this question a million times
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Quite right.
Likewise, they are paid for their opinions.
I said you would hate what he has to say
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Has anyone got another link to John O'Connor please? I am not a member of Face Book, and have no intention of joining.
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I said you would hate what he has to say
Oh you are going to have to do a lot better than that.
He's a retired policeman, and of course, we have had contradictory opinions coming from him.
Now when the SY team continue to find nothing as they have done so far, will they be held accountable for their failure ?
and dave, what is the success rate of police in the UK solving reported crimes ?
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Has anyone got another link to John O'Connor please? I am not a member of Face Book, and have no intention of joining.
Wasn't he the guy out of Terminator ? Perhaps Arnie would like to give an opinion as well.
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Wasn't he the guy out of Terminator ? Perhaps Arnie would like to give an opinion as well.
I'll be Bach. @)(++(*
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You are quite entitled to think this is an open and fair investigation Montclair.
I just don't believe it is the case.
Now if SY had said at the start that all possibilities would be investigated, then fair enough, I would have no problem, but they never have, and like many other people I don't believe this case will be solved.
I would like to be proved wrong.
SY DID say at the start that all possibilities would be investigated. What do you think they meant when they said 'Madeleine could be alive or sadly dead' ? That they would investigate both that she could be alive or that she could be dead.
They did a search and a dig, to see if Madeleine could have been murdered and buried but found nothing.
We don't know where the investigation has taken them now, as nothing has been reported and rightly so, why should they have to give a step by step report about what they are doing?
It could be they know what happened to Madeleine but need proof.
When were the 30 letters sent? You don't know they could have been sent at the start of the investigation or more recently, could be they are looking for someone, who knows.
Until SY finishes their investigation no one will know if it has been fruitless or not, so I would save your negative thoughts until we have been given the whole picture.
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SY DID say at the start that all possibilities would be investigated. What do you think they meant when they said 'Madeleine could be alive or sadly dead' ? That they would investigate both that she could be alive or that she could be dead.
They did a search and a dig, to see if Madeleine could have been murdered and buried but found nothing.
We don't know where the investigation has taken them now, as nothing has been reported and rightly so, why should they have to give a step by step report about what they are doing?
It could be they know what happened to Madeleine but need proof.
When were the 30 letters sent? You don't know they could have been sent at the start of the investigation or more recently, could be they are looking for someone, who knows.
Until SY finishes their investigation no one will know if it has been fruitless or not, so I would save your negative thoughts until we have been given the whole picture.
Should the SY team be held accountable if they still find nothing after all the money spent.
What is the success rate of SY and other police forces in the UK solving recorded crimes.
As to my thoughts, I will express them when I wish, just as you do.
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Oh you are going to have to do a lot better than that.
He's a retired policeman, and of course, we have had contradictory opinions coming from him.
Now when the SY team continue to find nothing as they have done so far, will they be held accountable for their failure ?
and dave, what is the success rate of police in the UK solving reported crimes ?
totally wrong again...no contradictory opinions from O'Connnor....
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Should the SY team be held accountable if they still find nothing after all the money spent.
What is the success rate of SY and other police forces in the UK solving recorded crimes.
As to my thoughts, I will express them when I wish, just as you do.
the SY team will and should be held responsible...they will be judged by results...as yet we don't know what they have found...
success rates of SY ....the conviction rate for rape is quite low...should we therefore stop investigating and prosecuting rape cases...
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Has anyone got another link to John O'Connor please? I am not a member of Face Book, and have no intention of joining.
This morning(yesterday) Sorry if it has already been posted. John O'Connor, with our friend Sonia.
https://onedrive.live.com/?id=9D4FC1EB25C52405%211169&cid=9D4FC1EB25C52405&group=0&parId=root&authkey=%21AOkRfbJEgt%2DSLn4&o=OneUp
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SY DID say at the start that all possibilities would be investigated. What do you think they meant when they said 'Madeleine could be alive or sadly dead' ? That they would investigate both that she could be alive or that she could be dead.
They did a search and a dig, to see if Madeleine could have been murdered and buried but found nothing.
We don't know where the investigation has taken them now, as nothing has been reported and rightly so, why should they have to give a step by step report about what they are doing?
It could be they know what happened to Madeleine but need proof.
When were the 30 letters sent? You don't know they could have been sent at the start of the investigation or more recently, could be they are looking for someone, who knows.
Until SY finishes their investigation no one will know if it has been fruitless or not, so I would save your negative thoughts until we have been given the whole picture.
I think Scotland Yard are looking for someone. And it won't be The McCanns because everybody knows where they are.
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totally wrong again...no contradictory opinions from O'Connnor....
Wrong.
Likewise, he is not on the case.
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Wrong.
Likewise, he is not on the case.
then point out the contradictions
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Please let's not start another pointless tit for tat. Otherwise we will be forced to delete it.
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then point out the contradictions
'You can't keep chasing shadows, chasing sightings all over the world,' said John O'Connor, a former Flying Squad chief.
'It depends on whether the detectives are making any real progress. If there are no firm leads, and by that I mean no substantial operational things like active surveillance on suspects, then I'd have thought they should be considering winding it down now.
'Are there more recent cases that could be progressed with the right resources? It's about priorities.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3219114/Bill-Scotland-Yard-investigation-Madeleine-McCann-disappearance-hits-11MILLION-no-arrests-former-police-chief-calls-end.html#ixzz3mGjXIUGp
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
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'You can't keep chasing shadows, chasing sightings all over the world,' said John O'Connor, a former Flying Squad chief.
'It depends on whether the detectives are making any real progress. If there are no firm leads, and by that I mean no substantial operational things like active surveillance on suspects, then I'd have thought they should be considering winding it down now.
'Are there more recent cases that could be progressed with the right resources? It's about priorities.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3219114/Bill-Scotland-Yard-investigation-Madeleine-McCann-disappearance-hits-11MILLION-no-arrests-former-police-chief-calls-end.html#ixzz3mGjXIUGp
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
he says if there is no progress it should be closed down...he says the same in his interview.....no contradictions
in his interview he stresses that until all the leads have been exhausted it should not close
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he says if there is no progress it should be closed down...he says the same in his interview.....no contradictions
in his interview he stresses that until all the leads have been exhausted it should not close
The 30 requests show exactly that.
They are chasing shadows.
They haven't got a clue.
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This morning(yesterday) Sorry if it has already been posted. John O'Connor, with our friend Sonia.
https://onedrive.live.com/?id=9D4FC1EB25C52405%211169&cid=9D4FC1EB25C52405&group=0&parId=root&authkey=%21AOkRfbJEgt%2DSLn4&o=OneUp
Thanks, Anna. So even Sonia Poulton thinks it should go on.
By the way, for how many years has this Review and Investigation been running now?
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Thanks, Anna. So even Sonia Poulton thinks it should go on.
By the way, for how many years has this Review and Investigation been running now?
Too long and reopened too late, in my opinion.
It would be great to hear that something of value has been found by OG, but I must admit that I am doubtful, as to the outcome.
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Too long and reopened too late, in my opinion.
It would be great to hear that something of value has been found by OG, but I must admit that I am doubtful, as to the outcome.
remember Grange has been ordered to say nothing by the Portuguese and they would be extremely careful not to upset their hosts. I cannot believe SY have found nothing...I think it's improbable they will solve the case but will come up with some answers that totally exonerates the parents. However who knows. Maddie deserves a full investigation into her fate.
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remember Grange has been ordered to say nothing by the Portuguese and they would be extremely careful not to upset their hosts. I cannot believe SY have found nothing...I think it's improbable they will solve the case but will come up with some answers that totally exonerates the parents. However who knows. Maddie deserves a full investigation into her fate.
I totally agree with you, but I believe it may have been easier and had a greater chance of success, if it was all done sooner.
If OG were making progress and had some evidence that would explain Madeleine disappearance........I don't think they would have been given a time limit. That is just my reasoning. I truly hope that the outcome will be positive.
Answers to exonerate the parents isn't what this investigation is about. Its to find out what happened to that child. The parents are innocent until such time as evidence is unveiled to prove otherwise.
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I seem to recall that John Stalker, another 'expert' had an opinion as well.
Key parts underlined:
MCCANNS 'ARE HIDING A BIG SECRET'
Sunday October 28 2007
By John Stalker
I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag on for six months.
One thing above all worries me: Why have the McCanns and the seven other members of their group - the Tapas Nine - remained so silent? My gut instinct is that some big secret is probably being covered up.
Unlike other high-profile cases I have worked on, not one of them has been prepared to break ranks or really come out and support each other. After all this time and pressure, I cannot believe that nobody wants to speak.
Their answer has always been no comment but there is surely some division between them. So what are they hiding? I have a real suspicion that we are not being told the whole truth.
There is something else there, some issue that members of the party are embarrassed about.
While they continue to refuse to talk it is unlikely that we will find out what it is for a very long time but one thing is certain - it will eventually come out.
The sad fact is that we still have a missing girl and I believe the investigation will be focusing on the theory that she is dead.
The likeliest scenario is that her abductor panicked when he realised the attention the case was creating and killed her days after snatching her.
My fear now is that unless we find her body or her killer strikes again we will never know what really happened to that tiny child.
My instinct, based on years of policing similar cases, is that we are looking at an abduction where the child was targeted in the days before her disappearance.
On the night she vanished it is likely that her abductor simply spotted his opportunity and struck while he could.
I have been horrified by the abject failure of the Portuguese detectives to adhere to basic principles of policing.
The investigation does not seem to have taken a step forward from where it was in the first week after she went missing. I cannot believe that the Portuguese only sent selected DNA samples to the forensic science lab in Birmingham.
There is absolutely no sense in that whatsoever. To fully evaluate poor-quality DNA traces, as we believe these were, forensic experts need to see the whole picture.
In the past, when I have dealt with traces of bodily fluids, it is very difficult to establish how they got to be where they were.
All DNA is highly transferable and that is the most likely explanation for the alleged traces found in the McCanns' hire car and on her mother's clothing. Robert Murat, the other suspect, was seen close to the apartment the day after Madeleine disappeared and freely admits having helped police as a translator.
If he was in that apartment, or anywhere near it, ther is no doubt he would have transferred some of Madeleine's or the twins' DNA on to his clothing.
I don't believe for one minute that Kate and Gerry McCann or their friends are capable or guilty of having murdered the four-year-old.
All the criticism of Kate and Gerry and their friends has been completely out of order. They are extremely intelligent and articulate people and, just because they have never visibly cracked in public to the extent that they are beaten, does not mean that they are guilty of anything sinister.
Yes, they have had more doors opened for them than other people would have in similar circumstances, but their main aim is to discover what happened to Madeleine. That should be the aim of all concerned.
But my gut instinct still forces me to wonder: What is the secret that the Tapas Nine are so carefully hiding?
There is a single, simple, answer to John Stalker's question: the Portuguese secrecy laws.
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I totally agree with you, but I believe it may have been easier and had a greater chance of success, if it was all done sooner.
If OG were making progress and had some evidence that would explain Madeleine disappearance........I don't think they would have been given a time limit. That is just my reasoning. I truly hope that the outcome will be positive.
Answers to exonerate the parents isn't what this investigation is about. Its to find out what happened to that child. The parents are innocent until such time as evidence is unveiled to prove otherwise.
Who says they have been given a time limit
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Who says they have been given a time limit
Then, the title of this topic is wrong?
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Key parts underlined:
MCCANNS 'ARE HIDING A BIG SECRET'
Sunday October 28 2007
By John Stalker
I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag on for six months.
One thing above all worries me: Why have the McCanns and the seven other members of their group - the Tapas Nine - remained so silent? My gut instinct is that some big secret is probably being covered up.
Unlike other high-profile cases I have worked on, not one of them has been prepared to break ranks or really come out and support each other. After all this time and pressure, I cannot believe that nobody wants to speak.
Their answer has always been no comment but there is surely some division between them. So what are they hiding? I have a real suspicion that we are not being told the whole truth.
There is something else there, some issue that members of the party are embarrassed about.
While they continue to refuse to talk it is unlikely that we will find out what it is for a very long time but one thing is certain - it will eventually come out.
The sad fact is that we still have a missing girl and I believe the investigation will be focusing on the theory that she is dead.
The likeliest scenario is that her abductor panicked when he realised the attention the case was creating and killed her days after snatching her.
My fear now is that unless we find her body or her killer strikes again we will never know what really happened to that tiny child.
My instinct, based on years of policing similar cases, is that we are looking at an abduction where the child was targeted in the days before her disappearance.
On the night she vanished it is likely that her abductor simply spotted his opportunity and struck while he could.
I have been horrified by the abject failure of the Portuguese detectives to adhere to basic principles of policing.
The investigation does not seem to have taken a step forward from where it was in the first week after she went missing. I cannot believe that the Portuguese only sent selected DNA samples to the forensic science lab in Birmingham.
There is absolutely no sense in that whatsoever. To fully evaluate poor-quality DNA traces, as we believe these were, forensic experts need to see the whole picture.
In the past, when I have dealt with traces of bodily fluids, it is very difficult to establish how they got to be where they were.
All DNA is highly transferable and that is the most likely explanation for the alleged traces found in the McCanns' hire car and on her mother's clothing. Robert Murat, the other suspect, was seen close to the apartment the day after Madeleine disappeared and freely admits having helped police as a translator.
If he was in that apartment, or anywhere near it, ther is no doubt he would have transferred some of Madeleine's or the twins' DNA on to his clothing.
I don't believe for one minute that Kate and Gerry McCann or their friends are capable or guilty of having murdered the four-year-old.
All the criticism of Kate and Gerry and their friends has been completely out of order. They are extremely intelligent and articulate people and, just because they have never visibly cracked in public to the extent that they are beaten, does not mean that they are guilty of anything sinister.
Yes, they have had more doors opened for them than other people would have in similar circumstances, but their main aim is to discover what happened to Madeleine. That should be the aim of all concerned.
But my gut instinct still forces me to wonder: What is the secret that the Tapas Nine are so carefully hiding?
There is a single, simple, answer to John Stalker's question: the Portuguese secrecy laws.
so stalker thinks there is a secret the McCanns are "embarrassed about.....is that all...
I don't think covering up your daughters death...committing a multi million pound fraud...is something they would be embarrassed about...
but this is the best you can do...pathetic
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Then, the title of this topic is wrong?
I think the time limit is a press inventiuon
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Well done reply to my posts.
I will comment on your posts if it pleases me
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I think the time limit is a press inventiuon
May Be, but it will have to finish at some time and the Portuguese can continue as long as they wish. It is after all their case.
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Then, the title of this topic is wrong?
My OP went in the news thread, but was teased out and given a title. As we are now at page 11 it seems appropriate.
The core idea was that some papers were saying OG had a deadline, when in fact the statement in the Houses of Parliament merely quoted the budget remaining for the currently approved period, without stating or implying that OG would halt at the end of the period. Some of the papers chose to run with something that was not said.
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It's looking to me that Two Million Pounds is about the budget per year so far, allowing for original extra expense in the beginning.
I honestly don't know if this expense is justified. But it would break my heart if the deprivation of a couple of million pounds left that child unfound.
Even if she is with a couple who really wanted her, which I prefer to believe, then this is still not an ideal situation for any child.
And I refuse to feel ashamed for false hopes, even if they are such.
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My OP went in the news thread, but was teased out and given a title. As we are now at page 11 it seems appropriate.
The core idea was that some papers were saying OG had a deadline, when in fact the statement in the Houses of Parliament merely quoted the budget remaining for the currently approved period, without stating or implying that OG would halt at the end of the period. Some of the papers chose to run with something that was not said.
That's my impression as well. I was about to say the same thing.
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My OP went in the news thread, but was teased out and given a title. As we are now at page 11 it seems appropriate.
The core idea was that some papers were saying OG had a deadline, when in fact the statement in the Houses of Parliament merely quoted the budget remaining for the currently approved period, without stating or implying that OG would halt at the end of the period. Some of the papers chose to run with something that was not said.
And there could well be another two million the year after.
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My OP went in the news thread, but was teased out and given a title. As we are now at page 11 it seems appropriate.
The core idea was that some papers were saying OG had a deadline, when in fact the statement in the Houses of Parliament merely quoted the budget remaining for the currently approved period, without stating or implying that OG would halt at the end of the period. Some of the papers chose to run with something that was not said.
Thanks Shining.
In other words, this investigation could go on forever.
I would be really happy. if something of use was found, but I am becoming more doubtful as time goes by.
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remember Grange has been ordered to say nothing by the Portuguese and they would be extremely careful not to upset their hosts. I cannot believe SY have found nothing...I think it's improbable they will solve the case but will come up with some answers that totally exonerates the parents. However who knows. Maddie deserves a full investigation into her fate.
I thought you had posted several times elsewhere on this forum that the parents had been exonerated by SY & PJ ?
Have they been or have they not been? (exonerated that is).
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Thanks Shining.
In other words, this investigation could go on forever.
I would be really happy. if something of use was found, but I am becoming more doubtful as time goes by.
Well I amn't. I am still in here hoping. And I don't intend to stop any time soon. And I would die first if this was my child.
This is the real thing to me. How many of the detractors would give up on their child?
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I thought you had posted several times elsewhere on this forum that the parents had been exonerated by SY & PJ ?
Have they been or have they not been? (exonerated that is).
Yes, they have been.
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Well I amn't. I am still in here hoping. And I don't intend to stop any time soon. And I would die first if this was my child.
This is the real thing to me. How many of the detractors would give up on their child?
Amn't what Eleanor? I was referring to my doubts of the investigation finding anything of value. I thought that the McCanns were also prepared for the eventuality of this being the case.
I know that the search would then continue with the fund money.....but then what? Would they sell their house to fund the search if necessary as you and I would do?
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I thought you had posted several times elsewhere on this forum that the parents had been exonerated by SY & PJ ?
Have they been or have they not been? (exonerated that is).
I would say they have been exonerated and that's why I used the phrase totally exonerated...ie ...in terms that even you would find difficult to argue with
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Should the SY team be held accountable if they still find nothing after all the money spent.
What is the success rate of SY and other police forces in the UK solving recorded crimes.
As to my thoughts, I will express them when I wish, just as you do.
No SY should not be held accountable if they still find nothing after all the money spent. They have been asked to investigate a case a cold case I should add, how can they be held accountable when they are doing the job they were asked to do?
If it was left to you then, nothing would be investigated especially cold cases as from word go you would be saying they would fail, going by their success rate.
Many cases are investigated after years have gone by and solved.
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No SY should not be held accountable if they still find nothing after all the money spent. They have been asked to investigate a case a cold case I should add, how can they be held accountable when they are doing the job they were asked to do?
If it was left to you then, nothing would be investigated especially cold cases as from word go you would be saying they would fail, going by their success rate.
Many cases are investigated after years have gone by and solved.
I think most people had an open mind about Grange, up to the point of Crimewatch, 29 months or so into the review-investigation.
Not many had the open mind afterwards.
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Being cleared officially by the police means nothing in an on-going case.
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Being cleared officially by the police means nothing in an on-going case.
Quite right. Emerging evidence could send them off in a completely different direction at any time while the case is active.
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Being cleared officially by the police means nothing in an on-going case.
What?
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I think most people had an open mind about Grange, up to the point of Crimewatch, 29 months or so into the review-investigation.
Not many had the open mind afterwards.
During Redwood's time a lot of speculation found it's way into the press, despite the oft repeated mantra that Op Grange would not be providing a running commentary. Crimewatch was a farce with people's checks missing, doors opening the wrong way, and people walking in strange directions. The silence since he went is an improvement in my opinion. No-one knows what the two police forces are doing and thinking and that's how it should be.
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I will comment on your posts if it pleases me
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
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Quite right. Emerging evidence could send them off in a completely different direction at any time while the case is active.
its ridiculous to say it means nothing
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Thanks Shining.
In other words, this investigation could go on forever.
I would be really happy. if something of use was found, but I am becoming more doubtful as time goes by.
It is difficult in that if it had happened in the uk then, if no progress is made,at some point the investigation would be wound down and left on file. As it is not a uk crime then I am not sure it could be left on file.
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It is difficult in that if it had happened in the uk then, if no progress is made,at some point the investigation would be wound down and left on file. As it is not a uk crime then I am not sure it could be left on file.
That is correct to a point, Slarti. unless of course the UK has something here to investigate further, It will stay on file I believe.
The investigation can continue in PT (and here if necessary) by the Portuguese police authorities, for as long as they wish, whether we pull out or not.
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IMO....Progress is painfully slow due to the Portuguese police not being as helpful as they could
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Amn't what Eleanor? I was referring to my doubts of the investigation finding anything of value. I thought that the McCanns were also prepared for the eventuality of this being the case.
I know that the search would then continue with the fund money.....but then what? Would they sell their house to fund the search if necessary as you and I would do?
Yes, I know, Anna. Cross purposes. I do still believe that something will be found. Or already has been.
No, I wouldn't sell a home with little financial equity when I had two other children to care for. How much do you think The McCanns would gain financially for The Fund after they had paid off The Mortgage? There would be no gain, financial or otherwise.
If this goes on after The Government decide to bail out, if they do, then no doubt The McCanns will manage somehow, without depriving their other two children.
I can think of a few things that I would do.
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It is difficult in that if it had happened in the uk then, if no progress is made,at some point the investigation would be wound down and left on file. As it is not a uk crime then I am not sure it could be left on file.
A good comment, and perfectly to the point. But whose File? I simply do not know.
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Yes, I know, Anna. Cross purposes. I do still believe that something will be found. Or already has been.
No, I wouldn't sell a home with little financial equity when I had two other children to care for. How much do you think The McCanns would gain financially for The Fund after they had paid off The Mortgage? There would be no gain, financial or otherwise.
If this goes on after The Government decide to bail out, if they do, then no doubt The McCanns will manage somehow, without depriving their other two children.
I can think of a few things that I would do.
I very much doubt that they still have a mortgage, Eleanor.
If I truly believed that I could find and bring my missing child home at the cost of losing my home and causing a wee bit of unaccustomed discomfort to my other children...............I would do it!
What did that couple do to get their child to a hospital that could possibly save his life? They are now living in Spain I believe.
Lets hope the profits from the book, savings and their salaries, can finance any further searches, when the fund has finally been wound up (if ever)
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yes he felt they were hiding something...that's very vague..perhaps how regular the checks were I think he said
As a person who is convinced Madeleine McCann was abducted he was totally misrepresented in the press ... this was at the time when "the pact of silence" was in the news ... in other words when everyone involved in the case was silenced by judicial secrecy with the exception of 'a source close to the investigation'.
Thanks for the cite, Ferryman, someone was sure to ask.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6632.msg273613#msg273613
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remember Grange has been ordered to say nothing by the Portuguese and they would be extremely careful not to upset their hosts. I cannot believe SY have found nothing...I think it's improbable they will solve the case but will come up with some answers that totally exonerates the parents. However who knows. Maddie deserves a full investigation into her fate.
Jean-Pierre has pulled me up on this before.
To be exonerated, you first have to be charged.
The McCanns were never charged.
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Jean-Pierre has pulled me up on this before.
To be exonerated, you first have to be charged.
The McCanns were never charged.
I think the McCanns have been charged and found guilty by some , including the SIO...on that basis exonerates fits the bill perfectly
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I think the McCanns have been charged and found guilty by some , including the SIO...on that basis exonerates fits the bill perfectly
The kangaroo "court" of public opinion.
You have a point there.
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The way I see it is that Scotland Yard are powerless to do any investigating in Portugal or anywhere else outside of the UK without the full cooperation of the Portuguese authorities. It is the Portuguese who will determine what if any further investigations take place in Portugal and going by previous responses to ILOR's I cannot see that happening any time soon.
That effectively renders any further real investigative work dead in the water.
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The way I see it is that Scotland Yard are powerless to do any investigating in Portugal or anywhere else outside of the UK without the full cooperation of the Portuguese authorities. It is the Portuguese who will determine what if any further investigations take place in Portugal and going by previous responses to ILOR's I cannot see that happening any time soon.
That effectively renders any further real investigative work dead in the water.
I agree. I think the Portuguese are hoping that SY will just give up and go away but I don't see them doing that. This is why the investigation is taking so long and costing so much
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Another point worth raising is why didn't the McCanns undertake private searches after the Portuguese investigation was shelved? That was the ideal time to carry out searches, when they had sufficient funds to do so and before any potential trail went ice cold.
I must admit I find this belated supposed urgency quite sickening. Had it been my kid I would have been out there ever possible day searching and digging for the truth. There are no excuses imo.
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I agree. I think the Portuguese are hoping that SY will just give up and go away but I don't see them doing that. This is why the investigation is taking so long and costing so much
My thoughts exactly davel, the Portuguese appear to be less than willing to pursue matters any further but then the scene of the alleged crime is within their jurisdiction so I suppose it is their prerogative.
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The way I see it is that Scotland Yard are powerless to do any investigating in Portugal or anywhere else outside of the UK without the full cooperation of the Portuguese authorities. It is the Portuguese who will determine what if any further investigations take place in Portugal and going by previous responses to ILOR's I cannot see that happening any time soon.
That effectively renders any further real investigative work dead in the water.
It means that SY must convince the Portuguese judiciary of the validity of their requests before they will be granted.
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It means that SY must convince the Portuguese judiciary of the validity of their requests before they will be granted.
That's right..SY have to convince the Portuguese that due to the incompetence of the PJ they need to allow SY to investigate..that should be fairly straightforward
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That's right..SY have to convince the Portuguese that due to the incompetence of the PJ they need to allow SY to investigate..that should be fairly straightforward
Competence or incompetence doesn't come into it - its a matter of whether a certain line of investigation is considered justified by the Portuguese Judiciary.
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That's right..SY have to convince the Portuguese that due to the incompetence of the PJ they need to allow SY to investigate..that should be fairly straightforward
That is part of the difficulty, but you cannot lay all the blame at the door of the Portuguese as the British Press have attempted to do. Leicestershire Police or Leicestershire Constabulary as it was known in 2007 and Scotland Yard were both involved in the original investigation together with several other British advisers and experts so they too must bear their share of responsibility for any mistakes. The parents too and the other members of the tapas group are not without blame for their conduct, quite appalling really.
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That's right..SY have to convince the Portuguese that due to the incompetence of the PJ they need to allow SY to investigate..that should be fairly straightforward
Maybe you should have been urging the papers to abandon their slurs against the Portuguese police.
(Maybe the McCanns should have been doing that too. I didn't see anyone doing it).
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That is part of the difficulty, but you cannot lay all the blame at the door of the Portuguese as the British Press have attempted to do. Leicestershire Police and Scotland Yard were both involved in the original investigation together with several other British advisers and experts so they too must bear their share of responsibility for any mistakes. The parents too and the other members of the tapas group are not without blame for their conduct, quite appalling really.
The British understood the forensic results while the Portuguese (with the possible exception of Inspector Dias) didn't ....
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Maybe you should have been urging the papers to abandon their slurs against the Portuguese police.
(Maybe the McCanns should have been doing that too. I didn't see anyone doing it).
Amaral certainly wasn't slurred.
I do accept that a great deal of honest endeavour and effort by Portuguese police engaged in the investigation did not receive the recognition or credit it deserved.
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Maybe you should have been urging the papers to abandon their slurs against the Portuguese police.
(Maybe the McCanns should have been doing that too. I didn't see anyone doing it).
The McCanns had their own newspaper slurs to deal with, remember them? I don't suppose those ones offended your sensibilities one bit.
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I very much doubt that they still have a mortgage, Eleanor.
If I truly believed that I could find and bring my missing child home at the cost of losing my home and causing a wee bit of unaccustomed discomfort to my other children...............I would do it!
Lets hope the profits from the book, savings and their salaries, can finance any further searches, when the fund has finally been wound up (if ever)
Anna, of course they still have Mortgage. What family of their age do you think hasn't?
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The McCanns had their own newspaper slurs to deal with, remember them? I don't suppose those ones offended your sensibilities one bit.
Many of them did actually.
But they were done by mid-2008.
Slurs against the Portuguese continue in our papers to this day. They are not likely to be helping are they.
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Amaral certainly wasn't slurred.
I do accept that a great deal of honest endeavour and effort by Portuguese police engaged in the investigation did not receive the recognition or credit it deserved.
Even yesterday's John O'Connor LBC bit that people have been praising included the apparently compulsory 'they were let down by the Portuguese' line.
What's the point of saying it eight years later?
Police in any country can struggle with investigations like these. There are numerous examples in this country also, as O'Connor knows very well.
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That is part of the difficulty, but you cannot lay all the blame at the door of the Portuguese as the British Press have attempted to do. Leicestershire Police or Leicestershire Constabulary as it was known in 2007 and Scotland Yard were both involved in the original investigation together with several other British advisers and experts so they too must bear their share of responsibility for any mistakes. The parents too and the other members of the tapas group are not without blame for their conduct, quite appalling really.
The McCanns never had any reason to defend themselves. And The PJ can stuff itself.
Let us see some excuses for their behaviour. Some logical reason for why they hounded Kate McCann above all others.
Never in all my born days have I seen anything so awful without cause.
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The McCanns never had any reason to defend themselves. And The PJ can stuff itself.
Let us see some excuses for their behaviour. Some logical reason for why they hounded Kate McCann above all others.
Never in all my born days have I seen anything so awful without cause.
Hounded her? They let her husband sit in the room with her for the first interview, and didn't see her again formally for four months. That's hardly hounding!
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I would say they have been exonerated and that's why I used the phrase totally exonerated...ie ...in terms that even you would find difficult to argue with
So you believe that exoneration is not absolute and has degrees?
To be exonerated one must have been charged with something; remind me what the McCanns were charged with and by which agency?
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The McCanns never had any reason to defend themselves. And The PJ can stuff itself.
Let us see some excuses for their behaviour. Some logical reason for why they hounded Kate McCann above all others.
Never in all my born days have I seen anything so awful without cause.
The first thing they needed to do was make sure the police didn't consider them suspects. Unfortunately most of their actions had the opposite effect.
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Even yesterday's John O'Connor LBC bit that people have been praising included the apparently compulsory 'they were let down by the Portuguese' line.
What's the point of saying it eight years later?
Police in any country can struggle with investigations like these. There are numerous examples in this country also, as O'Connor knows very well.
The McCanns were let down by a process that, certainly falsely, fingered them when they were patently innocent of any criminal wrong-doing.
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The McCanns were let down by a process that, certainly falsely, fingered them when they were patently innocent of any criminal wrong-doing.
IYO oF course.
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So you believe that exoneration is not absolute and has degrees?
To be exonerated one must have been charged with something; remind me what the McCanns were charged with and by which agency?
I need to remind you as we have had the same conversation before...the court of public opinion....you are playing silly semantic games trying to score points...you are scoring points but they are all own goals I'm afraid...
and yes...in the real world there are different levels of exoneration...just as there are different levels of innocence...as in Barry George...not innocent enough to receive compensation
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Many of them did actually.
But they were done by mid-2008.
Slurs against the Portuguese continue in our papers to this day. They are not likely to be helping are they.
Can you give some examples of what you consider to be recent press slurs against the Portuguese police please?
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Competence or incompetence doesn't come into it - its a matter of whether a certain line of investigation is considered justified by the Portuguese Judiciary.
it is incompetence when the SIO completely misunderstands the evidence
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Hounded her? They let her husband sit in the room with her for the first interview, and didn't see her again formally for four months. That's hardly hounding!
Oh really. And then they presumed. Times must as the going comes.
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The first thing they needed to do was make sure the police didn't consider them suspects. Unfortunately most of their actions had the opposite effect.
they were suspects because the police did not understand the evidence if you read the archiving report
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they were suspects because the police did not understand the evidence if you read the archiving report
Parents of a missing child will always be suspects.
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Parents of a missing child will always be suspects.
not for the length of time the mccanns were...because the police misunderstood the evidence as the archiving report confirms
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Another point worth raising is why didn't the McCanns undertake private searches after the Portuguese investigation was shelved? That was the ideal time to carry out searches, when they had sufficient funds to do so and before any potential trail went ice cold.
I must admit I find this belated supposed urgency quite sickening. Had it been my kid I would have been out there ever possible day searching and digging for the truth. There are no excuses imo.
The McCann's employed private investigators John.
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I need to remind you as we have had the same conversation before...the court of public opinion....you are playing silly semantic games trying to score points...you are scoring points but they are all own goals I'm afraid...
and yes...in the real world there are different levels of exoneration...just as there are different levels of innocence...as in Barry George...not innocent enough to receive compensation
There is no such thing.
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There is no such thing.
Barry George has been described as not innocent enough.....language evolves
remember we were monkeys once @)(++(*
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so to get back on track...
If SY don't solve the case I do see them making a statement that totally exonerates the parents...not that the die hards will accept it
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Can you give some examples of what you consider to be recent press slurs against the Portuguese police please?
The better question is when? have most,if not all, of the U.K. media "not" slurred the Portuguese police and its members, or even applauded what they actually did do well
8(0(*
It really is a sad state of affairs when journalists even gloat at a policeman's death as it is "an obstacle removed" ... And that from a "respectable" broadsheet!!
?>)()<
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so to get back on track...
If SY don't solve the case I do see them making a statement that totally exonerates the parents...not that the die hards will accept it
That's not the issue under discussion, read the thread title
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The better question is when? have most,if not all, of the U.K. media "not" slurred the Portuguese police and its members, or even applauded what they actually did do well
8(0(*
It really is a sad state of affairs when journalists even gloat at a policeman's death as it is "an obstacle removed" ... And that from a "respectable" broadsheet!!
?>)()<
the problem the Portuguese police have is that calling amaral a disgraced cop is not libellous as it is the truth. The Portuguese themselves have admitted the investigation was handled badly so I don's see a problem
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so to get back on track...
If SY don't solve the case I do see them making a statement that totally exonerates the parents...not that the die hards will accept it
No they won't, not officially. They'll do what they did in 2011 & 2013 - have someone speak in a documentary (or documentaries).
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That's not the issue under discussion, read the thread title
yes it is and is far more relevant than the post you just made
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No they won't, not officially. They'll do what they did in 2011 & 2013 - have someone speak in a documentary (or documentaries).
I think they will...
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the problem the Portuguese police have is that calling amaral a disgraced cop is not libellous as it is the truth. The Portuguese themselves have admitted the investigation was handled badly so I don's see a problem
Problem is the English press keeps using words like "bumbling" and "incompetent".
And nobody ever told them to stop doing it (in fact the only people ever pointing it out have been those on this side of the house).
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The better question is when? have most,if not all, of the U.K. media "not" slurred the Portuguese police and its members, or even applauded what they actually did do well
8(0(*
It really is a sad state of affairs when journalists even gloat at a policeman's death as it is "an obstacle removed" ... And that from a "respectable" broadsheet!!
?>)()<
I really have no idea what you are talking about.
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I really have no idea what you are talking about.
Which part could I assist you with?
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Problem is the English press keeps using words like "bumbling" and "incompetent".
And nobody ever told them to stop doing it (in fact only people ever pointing it out have been those on this side of the house).
but they were bumbling and incompetent...why do you think SY are there now
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Problem is the English press keeps using words like "bumbling" and "incompetent".
And nobody ever told them to stop doing it (in fact the only people ever pointing it out have been those on this side of the house).
I think it was "bungling" not "bumbling" - but hey ho. It's called freedom of expression, just like "your side of the house" like to exercise in their daily criticism of the McCanns.
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Which part could I assist you with?
The last sentence particularly.
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yes it is and is far more relevant than the post you just made
I answered a query in the thread, I didn't take it off topic myself, just being helpful, your "back on track post" was only backtracking to your desire t change the subject of the time and money the investigation has left to discussion of the Mccanns "exoneration"
8((()*/
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but they were bumbling and incompetent...why do you think SY are there now
To demostrate how bumbling and incompetent they are?
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Problem is the English press keeps using words like "bumbling" and "incompetent".
And nobody ever told them to stop doing it (in fact the only people ever pointing it out have been those on this side of the house).
Quite right.
I wonder how the Portuguese Press will react when they see how many members of the British establishment were involved in the paedophile scandal, and of course those members of the police force who collaborated in that, if the reports are true.
This case will pale into insignificance in comparison.
Likewise, the UK police were involved in this case from the start.
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but they were bumbling and incompetent...why do you think SY are there now
They are following orders.
But if you think it's cool for the papers to routinely slur the Portuguese, don't complain about 'lack of cooperation'.
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To demostrate how bumbling and incompetent they are?
Well let's face it, what do they have to show after spending over £10,000,000 of tax payers money ?
Oh yes.
30 letters of request.
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They are following orders.
But if you think it's cool for the papers to routinely slur the Portuguese, don't complain about 'lack of cooperation'.
Now that is a bloody good point if I ever read one but I'm sure Andy Redwood et al would have apologised to the Portuguese for this (and probably shared jokes about the meddling media into police work)
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The last sentence particularly.
It was an example of somethng a bit worse than a "slur".. A cold and calculating and nasty comment by a Times or Telegraph journalist who saw someone's death as just another obstacle removed from the path of the Mccanns....particularly made worse because that policeman did nothing to incur the venom apart from just being a Portuguese policeman doing his job, is that a bit clearer?
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Well let's face it, what do they have to show after spending over £10,000,000 of tax payers money ?
Oh yes.
30 letters of request.
There is nothing new about those, is there? I'm sure they were mentioned years ago.
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I think there is a possibility that you have failed to take note of the fact that the Polícia Judiciária and Scotland yard investigations have discarded Mr Amaral's flawed theory and are actively looking for the person/s responsible for the crime against Madeleine McCann.
That comes after an extensive review of all the available evidence. Which has led to people being invited to participate in police inquiries some as witnesses some as arguidos none of whom are Madeleine's family or any of their friends.
That SY have received further funding for a year and the PJ continue also continue with their inquiry is indicative of the fact that they haven't exhausted all investigative possibilities.
There is no doubt neither law enforcement agency are interested in Madeleine's parents or their friends.
There is no doubt both law enforcement agencies are actively pursuing a case of stranger abduction.
If you are content to go along with thinking a bunch of armchair detectives on the internet know better than the professionals ... that is your privilege.
WHere is the evidence that SY and PJ have discarded any theory? Or is that wishful thnking? That is the crux.
The fact that a stranger abduction has been investigated is no testament to your assertion lol..sorry for late reply, I didn't read back far enough in the thread to spot it
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It was an example of somethng a bit worse than a "slur".. A cold and calculating and nasty comment by a Times or Telegraph journalist who saw someone's death as just another obstacle removed from the path of the Mccanns....particularly made worse because that policeman did nothing to incur the venom apart from just being a Portuguese policeman doing his job, is that a bit clearer?
No, could you please provide a cite? It's the first I've heard of it. Whose death was it?
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Are the Portuguese authorities really such sensitive little flowers that a few harsh words about their (lack of) performance in the British tabloids is enough to make them pick up their ball and take it home out of childish spite, even if it means one of the 21st Century's greatest mysteries remains unsolved?
Don't answer that... &%+((£
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No, could you please provide a cite? It's the first I've heard of it. Whose death was it?
The revelation that possible leads – many passed to Portuguese police by the McCanns' own private detectives – had apparently been ignored will add to the clamour.
Last week, details emerged of a series of possible sightings of Madeleine, who was just three when she vanished.
Guilhermino Encarnacao, who was in charge of the Policia Judiciaria in the Algarve, died two weeks ago from stomach cancer.
Mr Encarnacao was convinced Madeleine had died in her parents' apartment and was a major source of a series of off the record briefings to journalists against the McCanns.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/7384911/Home-Office-launches-secret-review-into-Madeleine-McCanns-disappearance.html
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WHere is the evidence that SY and PJ have discarded any theory? Or is that wishful thnking? That is the crux.
The fact that a stranger abduction has been investigated is no testament to your assertion lol..sorry for late reply, I didn't read back far enough in the thread to spot it
“Neither her parents or any of the members of the group that were with her are either persons of interest or suspects”
Andy Redwood.
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but they were bumbling and incompetent...why do you think SY are there now
Where?
To labour a point SY have no jurisdiction in Portugal so why do you think they are there?
Except they are not "there" they are "here" and visit "there" every month approximatively.
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“Neither her parents or any of the members of the group that were with her are either persons of interest or suspects”
Andy Redwood.
Context of that statement was the 38 people of interest SY had listed at a specific time
You could be right and the statement be a blanket one forever more but you don't know..and I'm not sure how SY know either that there is NO possibility of parental involvement...if they really did they would be lapse in not telling the world then the world might stop speculating
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Where?
To labour a point SY have no jurisdiction in Portugal so why do you think they are there?
Except they are not "there" they are "here" and visit "there" every month approximatively.
Indeed. 8((()*/
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Context of that statement was the 38 people of interest SY had listed at a specific time
You could be right and the statement be a blanket one forever more but you don't know..and I'm not sure how SY know either that there is NO possibility of parental involvement...if they really did they would be lapse in not telling the world then the world might stop speculating
There is the technical possibility that information may have come to light since Andy Redwood said that which may have shifted the focus of the investigation.
I accept that.
But such conjecture can only remain precisely that in the absence of verifiable information confirming such a possibility.
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There is the technical possibility that information may have come to light since Andy Redwood said that which may have shifted the focus of the investigation.
I accept that.
But such conjecture can only remain precisely that in the absence of verifiable information confirming such a possibility.
Operation Conjecture is precisely what this whole saga is, agreed.
I don't have any problem with people believing one thng or another, what gets my goat is people telling me what I should believe, (like what right do they have? none,) what a terrible person I must be if I don't blanketly believe the parents "because they are parents of a missing child" (as if that alone ever made one innocent per se) or some of their dunce friends,or usay the Portuguese police are corrupt anymore so than any other force, that Amaral is Satan incarnated, well, you get the drift....all loaded irrationally and disingenuously IMO...
Oh forgot to add that G..... is a liar, a fake and a fraud...oops
And not forgetting the parents behaviour and their nauseous tv interviews have done nothing to make me believe they are not holding back information
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The revelation that possible leads – many passed to Portuguese police by the McCanns' own private detectives – had apparently been ignored will add to the clamour.
Last week, details emerged of a series of possible sightings of Madeleine, who was just three when she vanished.
Guilhermino Encarnacao, who was in charge of the Policia Judiciaria in the Algarve, died two weeks ago from stomach cancer.
Mr Encarnacao was convinced Madeleine had died in her parents' apartment and was a major source of a series of off the record briefings to journalists against the McCanns.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/7384911/Home-Office-launches-secret-review-into-Madeleine-McCanns-disappearance.html
Thanks.
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I really cant see the home office handing over 2 mill without some reassurance that progress isn't being made
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I really cant see the home office handing over 2 mill without some reassurance that progress isn't being made
Why not? Its not as if it is their money, after all.
Whats another few million - plenty where that comes from.
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Why not? Its not as if it is their money, after all.
Whats another few million - plenty where that comes from.
doesn't make sense
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Why not? Its not as if it is their money, after all.
Whats another few million - plenty where that comes from.
its the gift that keeps on givng jassi most normal people see that
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I really cant see the home office handing over 2 mill without some reassurance that progress isn't being made
The you're blind and inexperienced and uninformed, oops
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The statement by Mr Redwood was accurate on the date that he said it.
SY's current position is unknown as no similar statements have been made recently.
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The statement by Mr Redwood was accurate on the date that he said it.
SY's current position is unknown as no similar statements have been made recently.
we have no reason to believe its changed
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Why not? Its not as if it is their money, after all.
Whats another few million - plenty where that comes from.
Road tax and tv licence lol
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we have no reason to believe its changed
and no evidence that it hasn't changed
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and no evidence that it hasn't changed
so the default situation is not suspects
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Re the continuation of SY's investigation.
The places where SY have used EVRDS which we do know about are all large publically visible places which would have been difficult to deploy search teams on without being observed by the public and the press.
But is it possible that SY may also already have deployed EVRDs on smaller less public locations which are unknown to press and us?
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Re the continuation of SY's investigation.
The places where SY have used EVRDS which we do know about are all large publically visible places which would have been difficult to deploy search teams on without being observed by the public and the press.
But is it possible that SY may also already have deployed EVRDs on smaller less public locations which are unknown to press and us?
we simply do not know what SY are doing but I simply cannot see them being given another years funding if they are not making some progress
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we simply do not know what SY are doing but I simply cannot see them being given another years funding if they are not making some progress
Iif hypothetically SY asked PJ to obtain a search warrant for a single residence, and searched it, would we or the press ever get to hear of it?
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Iif hypothetically SY asked PJ to obtain a search warrant for a single residence, and searched it, would we or the press ever get to hear of it?
we have heard some of what is going on but I am sure WE do not know all that is happenning
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despite what posters claim we really do not have a clue what SY have found and why they want to continue investigating
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we have heard some of what is going on but I am sure WE do not know all that is happenning
The issuing by a judge of search warrants is not public information. Therefore the PJ accompanied by SY may have searched some places without us hearing of it.
The only searches we see on TV are the ones of large areas which it would be impossible to keep secret. IMO for searches of small places, SY would not tell the press.
Who knows, they could even be close to solving the case "before anyone notices" as vogue would say
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The issuing by a judge of search warrants is not public information. Therefore the PJ accompanied by SY may have searched some places without us hearing of it.
The only searches we see on TV are the ones of large areas which it would be impossible to keep secret. IMO for searches of small places, SY would not tell the press.
Who knows, they could even be close to solving the case "before anyone notices" as vogue would say
Lets hope so...I don't think they would have been given 2 mill if they had made no progress
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Lets hope so...I don't think they would have been given 2 mill if they had made no progress
Lets hope they have interviewed both of the parents to get an accurate description of the crime scene as discovered at about 10pm - because they were the first two witnesses to see it.
Those SY interviews would be their first statements ever to be transcribed in english without risk of translation errors (their only earlier statements, in May and Sept 2007, were transcribed in portuguese language only)
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Lets hope they have interviewed both of the parents to get an accurate description of the crime scene as discovered at about 10pm - because they were the first two witnesses to see it.
Those SY interviews would be their first statements ever to be transcribed in english without risk of translation errors (their only earlier statements, in May and Sept 2007, were transcribed in portuguese language only)
I'm sure they have
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Lets hope they have interviewed both of the parents to get an accurate description of the crime scene as discovered at about 10pm - because they were the first two witnesses to see it.
Those SY interviews would be their first statements ever to be transcribed in english without risk of translation errors (their only earlier statements, in May and Sept 2007, were transcribed in portuguese language only)
SY don't need to interview them yet when they have a copy of their book of truth 8(0(*
1485 "What do you mean the change in the blinds in the window''
Reply "Well you know it was pointed out, the window was open, the blind's not, you know, err down it's open, you know so those things you know I was made aware of but err as I say I couldn't tell you exactly how far down the blind was or how much the window was open.' (DP)
DP didn't see an open window when he entered with the McCanns because he would have said so - OMG the window was open! He was a first witness so why didn't he see it? He was present with Kate and Gerry.
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SY don't need to interview them yet when they have a copy of their book of truth 8(0(*
IMO obviously SY have interviewed all 9 adults.
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The issuing by a judge of search warrants is not public information. Therefore the PJ accompanied by SY may have searched some places without us hearing of it.
The only searches we see on TV are the ones of large areas which it would be impossible to keep secret. IMO for searches of small places, SY would not tell the press.
...
This is not impossible, but personally I would be astounded to find it had happened.
The media seems to have reported each ILOR, and SY would not be searching anything in Portugal without it going in an ILOR. The leaks on ILOR content so far have been fairly accurate.
All visits to Portugal by SY are news, and widely reported, so the idea they sneaked a team in under the radar sounds improbable.
The search warrant would need to be served on someone, (or alternatively permission granted by someone in a manner that satisfied Portuguese law), so that someone would need to be keeping it quiet from everyone.
The neighbours would need to be keeping the search activity totally quiet.
The level of news reporting on this is driven by the fundamental principle that a Maddie story sells copy. A scoop like "OG conducts secret search of ..." has to be worth more than "rain-sodden note found outside 5A on 1st anniversary".
So for this to have happened, it had to clear several hurdles.
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DP said he went inside with Kate and Gerry. Those 3 are together again like YW experienced on the morning of the 4th. The same 3 who claim to have seen Madeleine after 5:30 on 3 May. This won't be stopped until they sort this mess out.
We went, you know went to the apartment err you know and I didn't actually enter too much into the room but I walked to the edge and you know there was, you know the twins were in their cots, err they were in you know parallel, there was you know I could see, you know I think they were much further into the room but you know I could see Madeleine's bed and then you know it was just like all hell broke loose.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
if SY have said the McCanns are not suspects then logically this has all been sorted out
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if SY have said the McCanns are not suspects then logically this has all been sorted out
Doesn't mean nothing in an on-going case. Police can do what they like.
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This is what John O'Connor actually said...it's good to see how supportive he is of the McCanns
John O’Connor
This case is unique
It’s clear that the Portuguese got on the wrong track
Just think of the punishment they put the poor parents through
Grange has been re-investigating
They are doing things that the Portuguese Police should have done years ago
They’ve said they’re not doing a running commentary
Their investigation is confidential
It is a matter for the police to decide
If they think there’s a chance of a resolution, then the cost and resources are immaterial
They are doing exactly the right thing
The parents are entitled to all the available resources
They have a huge amount of intelligence and information
The Senior Investigating Officer has the knowledge and is the best person to decide, we should go by her advice
Things seem hopeful to me
There may be a resolution in sight
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The husband of a missing Gloucestershire woman is no longer suspected of her murder, police have confirmed.
Acting Det Supt Neil Kelly, the senior investigating officer in the case, said: "The investigation into Mrs.........disappearance and suspected death remains active and is continuing, and will do so for the foreseeable future."
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The husband of a missing Gloucestershire woman is no longer suspected of her murder, police have confirmed.
Acting Det Supt Neil Kelly, the senior investigating officer in the case, said: "The investigation into Mrs.........disappearance and suspected death remains active and is continuing, and will do so for the foreseeable future."
we all realise that should new information come to light things could change...I just don't see it happening based on everything we have seen
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we all realise that should new information come to light things could change...I just don't see it happening based on everything we have seen
They are not going to tell us. What happened about new forensics?
OCT 2014
Scotland Yard detectives secretly met the head of Portugal’s Institute of Legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences earlier this month.
The centre, near Lisbon, holds crucial Portuguese police evidence linked to the three-year-old British girl’s disappearance in 2007 from the resort of Praia da Luz in the Algarve.
The Metropolitan Police officers have now asked to retest some of the hairs in the hope of finding fresh evidence of what happened to her.
The Ooperation Grange team also want to do tests on curtains that were hanging in the Algarve apartment when Maddie went missing.
They met with the bosses of Portugal’s Institute of Legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences in Coimbra, two hours drive north of Lisbon, where most of the material, also said to include 25 blood and saliva samples, is held.
Institute president Francisco Brizida, said afterwards: “I have the certainty they went away very happy.”
“The tonic of the meeting was about the possibility of the tests on samples collected in 2007 being re-done.
“The British police wanted clarification on the examinations the institute had carried out during the early stages of the inquiry in the areas of genetics and biology.
“We talked about non-identified material that was collected in Madeleine’s apartment.
“I can’t say for sure new DNA tests that didn’t yield a conclusive result in 2007 could now yield an objective result.
“But technology nowadays allows us to go further than years ago in areas like genetic markers.
“Several possibilities are open. One could be that British police do the tests in Britain with British technology and another that the institute does them.
“But that’s an area in which the institute does not have the last word. There’s a situation of judicial cooperation and a new international letter of request would be necessary."
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-cops-hope-advances-4528079
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I think that if the mccanns were suspects Portugal would be giving them all the help they need to bring them to justice...they aren't...they are doing the opposite...that is one of the many reasons why I believe the mccanns are not in the frame
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Context of that statement was the 38 people of interest SY had listed at a specific time
You could be right and the statement be a blanket one forever more but you don't know..and I'm not sure how SY know either that there is NO possibility of parental involvement...if they really did they would be lapse in not telling the world then the world might stop speculating
Don't be silly mercury, do you really think SY telling the public how they know the McCann's and friends are innocent would stop the speculating?
Some of the public are so hell bent on Amaral's theory that they ignore everything SY say, maybe that's why they have decided to say nothing.
Even the Portuguese police were investigating tractor man, why would they do that if they thought the McCann's were guilty?
Why haven't the Portuguese police asked the McCann's down for questioning? Why haven't they arrested them?
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I think that if the mccanns were suspects Portugal would be giving them all the help they need to bring them to justice...they aren't...they are doing the opposite...that is one of the many reasons why I believe the mccanns are not in the frame
Exactly davel, do they honestly believe the Portuguese and SY would be wasting all this money if all they had to do was arrest the McCann's? It really is laughable, but unfortunately there's a child missing in all of this.
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You don't act upon it until you can prove it or it's no comment, no comment, no ffin tossin' comment %£&)**#
What, you mean they haven't arrested the McCann's because Kate wouldn't answer the questions the Portuguese police put to her?
Don't be ridiculous. The Portuguese police have been investigating Tractor Man, now they say they are concentrating on the couple who wanted a child.
All this time all this money, and all they have to do is get Kate back in for questioning? You are really talking rubbish.
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SY took everything back to zero and they're list is getting smaller all the time. This ain't gonna stop until their work is done.
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SY took everything back to zero and they're list is getting smaller all the time. This ain't gonna stop until their work is done.
What's the next number down from zero?
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why were SY interested in the australian girl recently if they thought the McCanns were responsible
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I'd almost forgotten about the forensics ILOR. It sounds like a productive meeting, even if the legal go-ahead hadn't been given at that point.
Just a few thoughts for the pot...
From memory, only one hair in 5A was ever positively identified and that was just Gerry's. Three others had partial roots, but not enough to extract a nuclear DNA profile from. I'd read about attempts to extract nuclear DNA from the top of rootless hairs in the past couple of years, but that seemed fairly hit and miss.
At the time, mtDNA forensic analysis seems to have been limited to establishing a haplotype, which seems about as useful as establishing a dialling code - i.e., a bit better than nothing. It may have been due to legal wrangles over ethical and privacy issues, as medical research pinpointing faulty or mutant genes in the mitochondria was well advanced way before Madeleine disappeared, so the technical capability existed.
I'm also curious about the curtains (and the bedding). In an ideal world, the curtains in the kids' bedroom and behind the sliding door should have been bagged as the capablities of extracting forensic information from cloth has apparently also made progress. I suppose there could also be a small miracle and they actually were, but it's not logged in the files.
If all of these, plus the identities of phone accounts / cybercafe users / people who had access to or had made duplicate keys could be established, there might be a few red flags. Particularly if someone known to have been in the vicinity denied ever having been in there. And, conversely, eliminate a number of people, thus narrowing down potential people of interest.
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What, you mean they haven't arrested the McCann's because Kate wouldn't answer the questions the Portuguese police put to her?
Don't be ridiculous. The Portuguese police have been investigating Tractor Man, now they say they are concentrating on the couple who wanted a child.
All this time all this money, and all they have to do is get Kate back in for questioning? You are really talking rubbish.
Do they? When did they say that?
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Do they? When did they say that?
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/546818/Brazilian-couple-who-wanted-a-child-re-examined-in-Madeleine-hunt
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http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/546818/Brazilian-couple-who-wanted-a-child-re-examined-in-Madeleine-hunt
So were 'either' of the men 'seen holding' a child bald ?
Did the woman look like Victoria Beckham ?
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http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/546818/Brazilian-couple-who-wanted-a-child-re-examined-in-Madeleine-hunt
Well, if you want to believe an unsourced story in the Express feel free. Let me know when you have a direct quote, won't you.
The Brazilian couple were suspicious because someone said they were keen to have a child and the woman was driving past and she looked into the back of her car! The boat they were supposed to have 'fled' on didn't seem to exist.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EXTERNAL.htm
If the boat was 'Tropico' it arrived in Albufeira on 9th May and stayed there until the end of 2008.
Albufeira Tropico PT 09/05/07 31/12/08 PT
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BOATS.htm
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Well, if you want to believe an unsourced story in the Express feel free. Let me know when you have a direct quote, won't you.
The Brazilian couple were suspicious because someone said they were keen to have a child and the woman was driving past and she looked into the back of her car! The boat they were supposed to have 'fled' on didn't seem to exist.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EXTERNAL.htm
If the boat was 'Tropico' it arrived in Albufeira on 9th May and stayed there until the end of 2008.
Albufeira Tropico PT 09/05/07 31/12/08 PT
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BOATS.htm
wouldn't matter where the story came from you would not accept...even Redwood saying the McCanns aren't suspects isn't good enough....
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wouldn't matter where the story came from you would not accept...even Redwood saying the McCanns aren't suspects isn't good enough....
You may rely on newspaper gossip and historical statements by departed policemen if you wish, I prefer to rely on direct quotes, preferably up-to-date ones.
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You may rely on newspaper gossip and historical statements by departed policemen if you wish, I prefer to rely on direct quotes, preferably up-to-date ones.
From whom, saying the McCanns and/or their friends are suspects?
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From whom, saying the McCanns and/or their friends are suspects?
Yeah, coz the police always let suspects know they're coming! @)(++(*
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Yeah, coz the police always let suspects know they're coming! @)(++(*
Yep.
Just as they did in the last round of interviews in Portugal.
Ole.
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Yeah, coz the police always let suspects know they're coming! @)(++(*
So it's only in your imagination that Scotland Yard and the PJ consider the McCanns as suspects?
The confirmation is something, I suppose ....
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You may rely on newspaper gossip and historical statements by departed policemen if you wish, I prefer to rely on direct quotes, preferably up-to-date ones.
At what point in the last few years did Andy Redwood's statement become "historical" in your view? When he retired? The day after he made the statement? Or at some point in between? In other words, when did you feel comfortable dismissing it as utterly meaningless?
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The first thing they needed to do was make sure the police didn't consider them suspects. Unfortunately most of their actions had the opposite effect.
They believed their child had been abducted, Slarti.
That opinion did not tie in with the chief investigator's theory and therein is the genesis of all campaigns against them, starting with the one to lead to the imprisonment of one or other or both.
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Yep.
Just as they did in the last round of interviews in Portugal.
Ole.
Were they suspects or witnesses? Or did it depend which newspaper you read?
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At what point in the last few years did Andy Redwood's statement become "historical" in your view? When he retired? The day after he made the statement? Or at some point in between? In other words, when did you feel comfortable dismissing it as utterly meaningless?
I never 'dismissed it as utterly meaningless'. You do love to put words in my mouth Alfred. I'm sure it had meaning for DCI Redwood, but he's long gone and his opinions with him. No statements have been made by his replacement at all, so we don't know what her thoughts are. She may agree with Redwood or she may not.
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WHere is the evidence that SY and PJ have discarded any theory? Or is that wishful thnking? That is the crux.
The fact that a stranger abduction has been investigated is no testament to your assertion lol..sorry for late reply, I didn't read back far enough in the thread to spot it
I am afraid that I do not understand why you think that two law enforcement agencies pursuing a line of inquiry which is entirely opposed to the views of a few internet theorists is wishful thinking.
Particularly when one bears in mind that neither Madeleine McCann's parents or their friends are persons of interest.
However the important thing at the moment is confirmation of another year's funding. Now if only we could make a dent in the amounts spent cleaning chewing gum off our streets the costs of looking for one of our children might achieve less comment.
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Were they suspects or witnesses? Or did it depend which newspaper you read?
Indeed.
Then I can recall the press conference with Edgar and Mitchell as regards the Victoria Beckham lookalike.
Which if i recall correctly, after all the bull###te, they never investigated.
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Re the continuation of SY's investigation.
The places where SY have used EVRDS which we do know about are all large publically visible places which would have been difficult to deploy search teams on without being observed by the public and the press.
But is it possible that SY may also already have deployed EVRDs on smaller less public locations which are unknown to press and us?
If you refer to Apartment 5A and Casa Liliana ... these would have been subject to ILORs at a time before the leak had been plugged ... therefore we would have known all about it.
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I am afraid that I do not understand why you think that two law enforcement agencies pursuing a line of inquiry which is entirely opposed to the views of a few internet theorists is wishful thinking.
Particularly when one bears in mind that neither Madeleine McCann's parents or their friends are persons of interest.
However the important thing at the moment is confirmation of another year's funding. Now if only we could make a dent in the amounts spent cleaning chewing gum off our streets the costs of looking for one of our children might achieve less comment.
One presumes over a period of time they have pursued more than one line of inquiry. Do you have confirmation they are pursuing only those you find acceptable? I haven't a clue what they are doing nor has anyone on here in reality but some are all to keen to tell others which line of inquiry is being pursued. That is wishful thinking.
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One presumes over a period of time they have pursued more than one line of inquiry. Do you have confirmation they are pursuing only those you find acceptable? I haven't a clue what they are doing nor has anyone on here in reality but some are all to keen to tell others which line of inquiry is being pursued. That is wishful thinking.
The OP Grange remit only mentions "abduction", nothing else.
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One presumes over a period of time they have pursued more than one line of inquiry. Do you have confirmation they are pursuing only those you find acceptable? I haven't a clue what they are doing nor has anyone on here in reality but some are all to keen to tell others which line of inquiry is being pursued. That is wishful thinking.
Whether I find a line of inquiry acceptable or not is I am sure not a priority concern for either the PJ or SY ... good of you to think I carry the weight of such importance that should be a consideration for them.
The important thing is that we do know for certain that both continue following evidence which will hopefully lead to finding out what happened to Madeleine McCann and lead to her safe return. If that is "wishful thinking" ... guilty as charged!
Scotland Yard are definitely on track to be capable of meriting another year of funding ... it pleases me that somewhere in the world a culprit or culprits must be feeling very uncomfortable about that.
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I never 'dismissed it as utterly meaningless'. You do love to put words in my mouth Alfred. I'm sure it had meaning for DCI Redwood, but he's long gone and his opinions with him. No statements have been made by his replacement at all, so we don't know what her thoughts are. She may agree with Redwood or she may not.
So, does Redwood's statement mean anything now (in YOUR opinion, not Andy Redwood's) or not? Make up your mind!
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The OP Grange remit only mentions "abduction", nothing else.
It refers to disappearance once and abduction once, other relevant MPS documents refer only to disappearance.
All in here:
http://content.met.police.uk/Article/Operation-Grange/1400005508791/35434.
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It refers to disappearance once and abduction once, other relevant MPS documents refer only to disappearance.
All in here:
http://content.met.police.uk/Article/Operation-Grange/1400005508791/35434.
I'm sure that's a great comfort to you. However on the basis that the word "abduction" is clearly used in the official OP Grange remit, and all subsequent activity that we know the Met have taken is fully in keeping with this being an investigation into a 3rd party abduction, I think you're clutching at very tenuous straws.
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I'm sure that's a great comfort to you. However on the basis that the word "abduction" is clearly used in the official OP Grange remit, and all subsequent activity that we know the Met have taken is fully in keeping with this being an investigation into a 3rd party abduction, I think you're clutching at very tenuous straws.
I don't need to clutch at straws. I have no more idea of what OG is doing than you have.
I am merely pointing out that you choose a particular interpretation of the OG Remit to suit your predetermined stance, based on "abduction" being mentioned once in the remit.
My understanding of the term "whole of the investigations" is just that, whole, rather than the narrow less than whole one you choose. Yes I know further down it refers to abduction in parentheses so don't bother to highlight it.
In your considered opinion is the remit to review the "whole of the investigations" as the MPS remit says or just the possibility of an abduction as you say?
Op Grange Remit
The support and expertise proffered by the Commissioner will be provided by the Homicide & Serious Crime Command - SCD1.
The activity, in the first instance, will be that of an ‘investigative review’. This will entail a review of the whole of the investigation(s) which have been conducted in to the circumstances of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance.
The focus of the review will be of the material held by three main stakeholders (and in the following order of primacy);
• The Portuguese Law Enforcement agencies.
• UK Law Enforcement agencies,
• Other private investigative agencies/staff and organisations.
The investigative review is intended to collate, record and analyse what has gone before.
It is to examine the case and seek to determine, (as if the abduction occurred in the UK) what additional, new investigative approaches we would take and which can assist the Portuguese authorities in progressing the matter. Whilst ordinarily a review has no investigative remit whatsoever- the scale and extent of this enquiry cannot permit for such an approach. It will take too long to progress to any “action stage” if activity is given wholly and solely to a review process.
The ‘investigative review’ will be conducted with transparency, openness and thoroughness.
The work will be overseen through the Gold Group management structure, which will also manage the central relationships with other key stakeholders and provide continuing oversight and direction to the investigative remit.
End
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I don't need to clutch at straws. I have no more idea of what OG is doing than you have.
I am merely pointing out that you choose a particular interpretation of the OG Remit to suit your predetermined stance, based on "abduction" being mentioned once in the remit.
My understanding of the term "whole of the investigations" is just that, whole, rather than the narrow less than whole one you choose. Yes I know further down it refers to abduction in parentheses so don't bother to highlight it.
In your considered opinion is the remit to review the "whole of the investigations" as the MPS remit says or just the possibility of an abduction as you say?
Op Grange Remit
The support and expertise proffered by the Commissioner will be provided by the Homicide & Serious Crime Command - SCD1.
The activity, in the first instance, will be that of an ‘investigative review’. This will entail a review of the whole of the investigation(s) which have been conducted in to the circumstances of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance.
The focus of the review will be of the material held by three main stakeholders (and in the following order of primacy);
• The Portuguese Law Enforcement agencies.
• UK Law Enforcement agencies,
• Other private investigative agencies/staff and organisations.
The investigative review is intended to collate, record and analyse what has gone before.
It is to examine the case and seek to determine, (as if the abduction occurred in the UK) what additional, new investigative approaches we would take and which can assist the Portuguese authorities in progressing the matter. Whilst ordinarily a review has no investigative remit whatsoever- the scale and extent of this enquiry cannot permit for such an approach. It will take too long to progress to any “action stage” if activity is given wholly and solely to a review process.
The ‘investigative review’ will be conducted with transparency, openness and thoroughness.
The work will be overseen through the Gold Group management structure, which will also manage the central relationships with other key stakeholders and provide continuing oversight and direction to the investigative remit.
End
Of course it reviewed the work of the earlier investigation(s) but clearly the Met were coming to the case as an abduction from the off, otherwise why even mention the term in the remit? And nothing that they have done since is out of kilter with the remit re: treating the case as one of stranger abduction.
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This is not impossible, but personally I would be astounded to find it had happened.
The media seems to have reported each ILOR, and SY would not be searching anything in Portugal without it going in an ILOR. The leaks on ILOR content so far have been fairly accurate.
All visits to Portugal by SY are news, and widely reported, so the idea they sneaked a team in under the radar sounds improbable.
The search warrant would need to be served on someone, (or alternatively permission granted by someone in a manner that satisfied Portuguese law), so that someone would need to be keeping it quiet from everyone.
The neighbours would need to be keeping the search activity totally quiet.
The level of news reporting on this is driven by the fundamental principle that a Maddie story sells copy. A scoop like "OG conducts secret search of ..." has to be worth more than "rain-sodden note found outside 5A on 1st anniversary".
So for this to have happened, it had to clear several hurdles.
I totally concur ShiningInLuz, nothing goes on in Portugal involving the police without it being relayed to the local Press.
Ergo, no news means just that...No News!
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Of course it reviewed the work of the earlier investigation(s) but clearly the Met were coming to the case as an abduction from the off, otherwise why even mention the term in the remit? And nothing that they have done since is out of kilter with the remit re: treating the case as one of stranger abduction.
Your first sentence defeats itself.
The bit in bold: You know this to be true how?
Are you privy to all that the MPS do?
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If you refer to Apartment 5A and Casa Liliana ... these would have been subject to ILORs at a time before the leak had been plugged ... therefore we would have known all about it.
It is certain that at some time or other the child disappeared from 5A therefore SY during their investigation must have visited 5A. For example SY must have examined the window and shutter mechanism of that bedroom. To spend tens of millions of pounds without even visiting the residence where the crime happened would be madness. The fact that we never read a report of it in the press is neither here nor there. Is anyone on this forum seriously suggesting OG have never visited the apartment?
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Your first sentence defeats itself.
The bit in bold: You know this to be true how?
Are you privy to all that the MPS do?
OK, perhaps you can explain why the word abduction appears in the remit if the Met were coming to. the investigation without any pre-knowledge or opinions of the case?
As for your second question I was referring to all the actions taken by the Met that we know about of course.
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(snip) ... or alternatively permission granted by someone in a manner that satisfied Portuguese law ... (snip)
If Op Grange wish to visit a residence in portugal, OG could ask PJ to approach the owner, and if the owner gives permission voluntarily, then no search warrant is required, and no ILOR is required. Does anyone agree or disagree?
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I totally concur ShiningInLuz, nothing goes on in Portugal involving the police without it being relayed to the local Press.
Ergo, no news means just that...No News!
That seems to have been the case some time ago. The slightest thought or rumour while scratching your bottom or front around the water fountain found its way into pro-police media, repeated by the UK, then repeated again as substantiated in PT media.
There now appears to be a crackdown and crime reporters now appear to have quite a lot to legitimately get their teeth into.
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If Op Grange wish to visit a residence in portugal, OG could ask PJ to approach the owner, and if the owner gives permission voluntarily, then no search warrant is required, and no ILOR is required. Does anyone agree or disagree?
In such a scenario, would UK police have any right to be present at this search, do you think ?
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OK, perhaps you can explain why the word abduction appears in the remit if the Met were coming to. the investigation without any pre-knowledge or opinions of the case?
As for your second question I was referring to all the actions taken by the Met that we know about of course.
I can't anymore than I can explain why the word disappearance is used more often.
I draw no conclusion from either.
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If an ex arguido and a UK TV team were given access to 5a to make a documentary, I can't think why SY would not be allowed to enter 5A at least to look around
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I can't anymore than I can explain why the word disappearance is used more often.
I draw no conclusion from either.
Fair enough, just as you refuse to draw any conclusions from all the known actions taken by the Met, nor by Andy Redwood's clear statement that the McCanns are not suspects. You carry on deluding yourself if it makes you feel better about things. 8((()*/
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If Op Grange wish to visit a residence in portugal, OG could ask PJ to approach the owner, and if the owner gives permission voluntarily, then no search warrant is required, and no ILOR is required. Does anyone agree or disagree?
I'd find that highly unlikely for anyone resident or present on foreign soil without a court order. Once you get into court orders... you presumably get into this fuzzy arguido land in PT.
Laws have changed in PT. It used to be that once a particular person was a suspect or an arguido... the timer was ticking.
I find it possible that anyone ordinarily in the UK (previous employees, tourists, returning expats, etc) may consent to a mouth swab... or not.
I haven't the faintest idea how that would work in international law, even if someone voluntarily gave a swab or was subject to anything else (home search) while "resident" in a different jurisdiction.
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It is certain that at some time or other the child disappeared from 5A therefore SY during their investigation must have visited 5A. For example SY must have examined the window and shutter mechanism of that bedroom. To spend tens of millions of pounds without even visiting the residence where the crime happened would be madness. The fact that we never read a report of it in the press is neither here nor there. Is anyone on this forum seriously suggesting OG have never visited the apartment?
The PJ did quietly carry out diligences in PdL prior to reopening the case ... perhaps there was cooperation at that time ... or perhaps they trusted intelligence given to them by their PJ counterparts.
I think on balance that you are correct they would have visited the crime scene in person although I doubt they would have done so accompanied by a forensic team or dogs.
Rather just to get a feel of the place.
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I can't anymore than I can explain why the word disappearance is used more often.
I draw no conclusion from either.
I quite often use "disappearance" or "vanished" in deference to those who have an apoplectic fit at the mention of "abduction" ... I draw no conclusions from the use of any of those or other appropriate words in relation to what happened.
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IFF you have reasons to suspect someone, who may have taken up official residence in X country, barring an emergency, wouldn't any police force need to go through an ILOR?
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Don't be silly mercury, do you really think SY telling the public how they know the McCann's and friends are innocent would stop the speculating? It might if somethng very concrete was disclosed, if it exists, as it stands, it seems they don't know either way and if they do! how do they? If you see what I mean
Some of the public are so hell bent on Amaral's theory that they ignore everything SY say, maybe that's why they have decided to say nothing. No, I don't thnk SY make decisions on what to disclose or not based on the fact there are some people wh believe Mr Amaral/PJs theory of the time
Even the Portuguese police were investigating tractor man, why would they do that if they thought the McCann's were guilty? The PJ followed up a few lines of inquiry back in the day even if they thought there was or could be parental involvement...tractorman IMO was not the wedge that got the case reopened
Why haven't the Portuguese police asked the McCann's down for questioning? Why haven't they arrested them? I have no idea...maybe a few reasons, one being the one originally given by them when they did not ask for them to be reinterviewed along with their friends in 2008...another mght be because they would refuse/needing extradition to do so....another mght be they actually don't thnk they involved, another mght be, their hands are tied diplomatically...who knows....to arrest them needs some hard evidence
............
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Fair enough, just as you refuse to draw any conclusions from all the known actions taken by the Met, nor by Andy Redwood's clear statement that the McCanns are not suspects. You carry on deluding yourself if it makes you feel better about things. 8((()*/
In your own inimitable MO you have added a shedful of things I have not said in a poor attempt at passing it off as something I have said, together with working in the customary insulting term.
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I have heard someone is claiming Madeleine was hypnotised.
Is that claim for real ? 8**8:/:
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I have heard someone is claiming Madeleine was hypnotised.
Is that claim for real ? 8**8:/:
It is being discussed on this thread
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1868.1890
No further comment from me! on the subject ....
&%+((£
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It is being discussed on this thread
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1868.1890
No further comment from me! on the subject ....
&%+((£
Thanks for the link. 8((()*/
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I am afraid that I do not understand why you think that two law enforcement agencies pursuing a line of inquiry which is entirely opposed to the views of a few internet theorists is wishful thinking.
Particularly when one bears in mind that neither Madeleine McCann's parents or their friends are persons of interest.
However the important thing at the moment is confirmation of another year's funding. Now if only we could make a dent in the amounts spent cleaning chewing gum off our streets the costs of looking for one of our children might achieve less comment.
sOrry, catching up. Obviously there is no price for a chlld's life, but there are things called budgets and police budgets and home office budgets and not forgetting time and manpower, and thousands of other police cases of murder and other serious crimes, if chewing gum removal has a higher budget, take it up with the appropriate person in government.
Fact remains you have no idea apart from a few newspaper stories whose accuracy always has to be questioned, what SY or the PJ have been doing, what they are thnking, are doing or planning to do....in other words you are in no position to state that two law enforcement agencies are chasing after an assumed and prescribed scarlet pimpernel and nothng else....yes, it is wishful thinking, which, is OK, but not realistic
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In your own inimitable MO you have added a shedful of things I have not said in a poor attempt at passing it off as something I have said, together with working in the customary insulting term.
You gave me to believe that you can draw no conclusions about anything at all or at least you refuse to express an opinion one way or the other, which is what pretty much what I said isn't it? It appears to me that you take comfort from this because it allows you to continue to believe that the Met might be investigating the McCanns, a belief which I believe to be quite deluded. If I have misunderstood your position then I apologise and look forward to further clarification.
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Well, if you want to believe an unsourced story in the Express feel free. Let me know when you have a direct quote, won't you.
The Brazilian couple were suspicious because someone said they were keen to have a child and the woman was driving past and she looked into the back of her car! The boat they were supposed to have 'fled' on didn't seem to exist.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EXTERNAL.htm
If the boat was 'Tropico' it arrived in Albufeira on 9th May and stayed there until the end of 2008.
Albufeira Tropico PT 09/05/07 31/12/08 PT
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BOATS.htm
Well one thing is for sure they are not investigating the McCann's.
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Well one thing is for sure they are not investigating the McCann's.
That certainly seems to be the view of the woman who presided over the libel trial, sic:
- The claimant Madeleine is missing from the day May 3, 2007, having run, in order to determine the criminal responsibility for her disappearance, a criminal investigation where the 1st and 2nd claimants came to be made arguidos (formal suspects) that ended up with an order of shelving.
- The archiving report concluded there was no evidence that the 1st and 2nd claimants practiced any crime.
Strange.
The determined efforts of several posters here to re-write what the archiving dispatch says seems to have bypassed the learned lady judge.
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sOrry, catching up. Obviously there is no price for a chlld's life, but there are things called budgets and police budgets and home office budgets and not forgetting time and manpower, and thousands of other police cases of murder and other serious crimes, if chewing gum removal has a higher budget, take it up with the appropriate person in government.
Fact remains you have no idea apart from a few newspaper stories whose accuracy always has to be questioned, what SY or the PJ have been doing, what they are thnking, are doing or planning to do....in other words you are in no position to state that two law enforcement agencies are chasing after an assumed and prescribed scarlet pimpernel and nothng else....yes, it is wishful thinking, which, is OK, but not realistic
as those who control the budget have decided to award another 2 million to Grange then it is clear that they feel the investigation has reason to continue..that's good enough for me
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as those who control the budget have decided to award another 2 million to Grange then it is clear that they feel the investigation has reason to continue..that's good enough for me
And it would be a heck of a lot of money to allocate if the investigation was angling at banging up the McCanns or any of their friends ....
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I have heard someone is claiming Madeleine was hypnotised.
Is that claim for real ? 8**8:/:
speaking as someone with experience in hypnotism I can confirm it's a non starter
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So £2,000,000 for 30 letters.
Brilliant. &%&£(+ %£&)**# &%&£(+
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Well one thing is for sure they are not investigating the McCann's.
Well obviously as they are not brazilian
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You gave me to believe that you can draw no conclusions about anything at all or at least you refuse to express an opinion one way or the other, which is what pretty much what I said isn't it? It appears to me that you take comfort from this because it allows you to continue to believe that the Met might be investigating the McCanns, a belief which I believe to be quite deluded. If I have misunderstood your position then I apologise and look forward to further clarification.
From what did you draw that conclusion?
I believe the Met are investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann where that will finish up is anyone's guess. It should be forgotten that The Met do not have primacy unless it transpires a crime was committed in their jurisdiction.
It does not follow that because I am not a McCann sycophant, I believe they dunnit, to pinch your word.
However I doubt you will ever understand that the whole round world is not split into two on the topic McCann.
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From what did you draw that conclusion?
I believe the Met are investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann where that will finish up is anyone's guess. It should be forgotten that The Met do not have primacy unless it transpires a crime was committed in their jurisdiction.
It does not follow that because I am not a McCann sycophant, I believe they dunnit, to pinch your word.
However I doubt you will ever understand that the whole round world is not split into two on the topic McCann.
it's quite clear from those who you support and those who you attack on here exactly where your allegiance lies
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Well one thing is for sure they are not investigating the McCann's.
Who aren't? The PJ? How do you know?
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Who aren't? The PJ? How do you know?
because it's obvious
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From what did you draw that conclusion?
I believe the Met are investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann where that will finish up is anyone's guess. It should be forgotten that The Met do not have primacy unless it transpires a crime was committed in their jurisdiction.
It does not follow that because I am not a McCann sycophant, I believe they dunnit, to pinch your word.
However I doubt you will ever understand that the whole round world is not split into two on the topic McCann.
So are we then to assume from the above diatribe that you don't believe the McCanns dunnit, but that you're simply here to get your kicks from trying to wind up McCann 'sycophants"?
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it's quite clear from those who you support and those who you attack on here exactly where your allegiance lies
Do tell more.
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it's quite clear from those who you support and those who you attack on here exactly where your allegiance lies
Allegiance
2.
loyalty or devotion to some person, group, cause, or the like.
*&*%£
you're havng a laugh but maybe it says more about you!
I doubt a poster like Alice could be described, let's say, as a member of the Knights of Saint Columbus eg
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So are we then to assume from the above diatribe that you don't believe the McCanns dunnit, but that you're simply here to get your kicks from trying to wind up McCann 'sycophants"?
Pretty much if you wish to put it that way. I would put it slightly differently, but then I said that months ago however those who know better than me say I am here for another reason. So maybe you had better ask them.
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Can we stop the one liner insults please.
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I must say, having listened to the Andrew Pierce LBC discussion with former Met Commander John O'Connor and journalist Sonia Poulton in respect of the additional two million pounds allocated to the Madeleine investigation, I came away with the distinct impression that most of what was being said was more window dressing than factual based.
Sonia Poulton wasted a unique opportunity to put forward her own findings whilst O'Connor came across as badly informed and out of touch.
One comment stands out for me when O'Connor was asked why the Maddie case was awarded so much funding whilst others like the Needham's had to fight tooth and nail for it. His response was that there were no leads in the Ben Needham case whereas there were many in the Maddie case generated by the parents own investigators. But weren't the McCann's own investigators creating false leads and giving false hope simply in order to line their own pockets?
The bottom line is that there are no new leads in the Maddie case, the trail has gone stone cold. What SY are doing is raking over old coals in the hope that something new will turn up but that just hasn't happened. On what basis SIO DCI Nicola Wall has sought additional funding can only be speculated because there can be no doubt that she and her team are no further forward than the PJ were seven years ago.
Anyone who hasn't already heard the discussion can do so on our Facebook site.
http://facebook.com/UkJusticeForum
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I must say, having listened to the Andrew Pierce LBC discussion with former Met Commander John O'Connor and journalist Sonia Poulton in respect of the additional two million pounds allocated to the Madeleine investigation, I came away with the distinct impression that most of what was being said was more window dressing than factual based.
Sonia Poulton wasted a unique opportunity to put forward her own findings whilst O'Connor came across as badly informed and out of touch.
One comment stands out for me when O'Connor was asked why the Maddie case was awarded so much funding whilst others like the Needham's had to fight tooth and nail for it. His response was that there were no leads in the Ben Needham case whereas there were many in the Maddie case generated by the parents own investigators. But weren't the McCann's own investigators creating false leads and giving false hope simply in order to line their own pockets?
The bottom line is that there are no new leads in the Maddie case, the trail has gone stone cold. What SY are doing is raking over old coals in the hope that something new will turn up but that just hasn't happened. On what basis SIO DCI Nicola Wall has sought additional funding can only be speculated because there can be no doubt that she and her team are no further forward than the PJ were seven years ago.
Anyone who hasn't already heard the discussion can do so on our Facebook site.
http://facebook.com/UkJusticeForum
On what basis SIO DCI Nicola Wall has sought additional funding can only be speculated because there can be no doubt that she and her team are no further forward than the PJ were seven years ago.
I would tend to suggest that what I underline may be the true speculation ....
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I must say, having listened to the Andrew Pierce LBC discussion with former Met Commander John O'Connor and journalist Sonia Poulton in respect of the additional two million pounds allocated to the Madeleine investigation, I came away with the distinct impression that most of what was being said was more window dressing than factual based.
Sonia Poulton wasted a unique opportunity to put forward her own findings whilst O'Connor came across as badly informed and out of touch.
One comment stands out for me when O'Connor was asked why the Maddie case was awarded so much funding whilst others like the Needham's had to fight tooth and nail for it. His response was that there were no leads in the Ben Needham case whereas there were many in the Maddie case generated by the parents own investigators. But weren't the McCann's own investigators creating false leads and giving false hope simply in order to line their own pockets?
The bottom line is that there are no new leads in the Maddie case, the trail has gone stone cold. What SY are doing is raking over old coals in the hope that something new will turn up but that just hasn't happened. On what basis SIO DCI Nicola Wall has sought additional funding can only be speculated because there can be no doubt that she and her team are no further forward than the PJ were seven years ago.
Anyone who hasn't already heard the discussion can do so on our Facebook site.
http://facebook.com/UkJusticeForum
sorry John but the main points in your posts are pure speculation.
I think its absurd to suggest Grange is making no progress when they have just been awarded a further 2 million.
There is absolute silence in the Portuguese press...Grange was failing we would hear about it....the fact that we are hearing nothing means that Grange are making progress
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On what basis SIO DCI Nicola Wall has sought additional funding can only be speculated because there can be no doubt that she and her team are no further forward than the PJ were seven years ago.
I would tend to suggest that what I underline may be the true speculation ....
30 letters of speculation. 8((()*/
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30 letters of speculation. 8((()*/
you don't have a clue what they have found as your pal alice has confirmed
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it seems that lately as others have also noted your posts are reduced to emoticons
Some emoticons are a reflection of some posts by other parties. 8**8:/:
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....and still 30 letters of speculation and nothing else to show for £10,000,000.
An excellent use of resources. &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
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From what did you draw that conclusion?
I believe the Met are investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann where that will finish up is anyone's guess. It should be forgotten that The Met do not have primacy unless it transpires a crime was committed in their jurisdiction.
It does not follow that because I am not a McCann sycophant, I believe they dunnit, to pinch your word.
However I doubt you will ever understand that the whole round world is not split into two on the topic McCann.
It should be forgotten that The Met do not have primacy ...
Why should we forget that?
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....and still 30 letters of speculation and nothing else to show for £10,000,000.
An excellent use of resources. &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
When were these letters sent and what did they contain?
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Who aren't? The PJ? How do you know?
Well I don't see the McCann's being escorted to Portugal for questioning for one. I would have thought that if the PJ believed the McCann's to be guilty they wouldn't have waited years and money on investigating other possibilities.
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I must say, having listened to the Andrew Pierce LBC discussion with former Met Commander John O'Connor and journalist Sonia Poulton in respect of the additional two million pounds allocated to the Madeleine investigation, I came away with the distinct impression that most of what was being said was more window dressing than factual based.
Sonia Poulton wasted a unique opportunity to put forward her own findings whilst O'Connor came across as badly informed and out of touch.
One comment stands out for me when O'Connor was asked why the Maddie case was awarded so much funding whilst others like the Needham's had to fight tooth and nail for it. His response was that there were no leads in the Ben Needham case whereas there were many in the Maddie case generated by the parents own investigators. But weren't the McCann's own investigators creating false leads and giving false hope simply in order to line their own pockets?
The bottom line is that there are no new leads in the Maddie case, the trail has gone stone cold. What SY are doing is raking over old coals in the hope that something new will turn up but that just hasn't happened. On what basis SIO DCI Nicola Wall has sought additional funding can only be speculated because there can be no doubt that she and her team are no further forward than the PJ were seven years ago.
Anyone who hasn't already heard the discussion can do so on our Facebook site.
http://facebook.com/UkJusticeForum
You listen to one interview on a radio station featuring two people not involved in the investigation and are able to come to that unequivocal conclusion how exactly?!!
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30 letters of speculation. 8((()*/
The benefit of issuing all these ILOR's is that when the investigation eventually goes tits up runs out of steam, SY will be able to blame everyone else. They don't even know for sure what happened to Maddie so how can they possibly investigate the case as a crime.
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The benefit of issuing all these ILOR's is that when the investigation eventually goes tits up runs out of steam, SY will be able to blame everyone else. They don't even know for sure what happened to Maddie so how can they possibly investigate the case as a crime.
What weird logic. You don't think Madeleine's disappearance was necessarily a crime?
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The benefit of issuing all these ILOR's is that when the investigation eventually goes tits up runs out of steam, SY will be able to blame everyone else. They don't even know for sure what happened to Maddie so how can they possibly investigate the case as a crime.
Do we know how many of these ILORs have been refused since the investigation started?
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What weird logic. You don't think Madeleine's disappearance was necessarily a crime?
I'm sure a crime has been committed, its just that the nature of that crime has not been determined.
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What weird logic. You don't think Madeleine's disappearance was necessarily a crime?
As we have discussed before there is no evidence of any crime.
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I'm sure a crime has been committed, its just that the nature of that crime has not been determined.
That is simply speculation, the woke and wandered theory is favoured by many former police professionals who have investigated the disappearance. The only reason SY have been given an extension in my view is because of the ILORs.
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That is simply speculation, the woke and wandered theory is favoured by many former police professionals who have investigated the disappearance.
True. I had omitted that option as I think it unlikely that a body would remain unfound in such an event.
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That is simply speculation, the woke and wandered theory is favoured by many former police professionals who have investigated the disappearance. The only reason SY have been given an extension in my view is because of the ILORs.
the open window indicates some sort of break in
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the open window indicates some sort of break in
Not necessarily.
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the open window indicates some sort of break in
No it doesn't.
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True. I had omitted that option as I think it unlikely that a body would remain unfound in such an event.
Depends entirely on the circumstances. Luz is riddled with underground caverns and tunnels making a proper search virtually impossible.
In any event, this is discussion for another thread.
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Not necessarily.
it points towards third party involvement...that's why Kate was sure there was an abduction
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it points towards third party involvement...that's why Kate was sure there was an abduction
So why did she and Gerry go out searching for her if she had been abducted? You conveniently forget that the woke and wandered theory was first and foremost thus why the Mark Warner staff conducted a search.
Had Maddie been abducted some trace of her would have popped up on police radar by now. Since it hasn't despite SY spending over £10m then that in itself should tell any competent investigator that all avenues are still wide open.
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So why did she and Gerry go out searching for her if she had been abducted? You conveniently forget that the woke and wandered theory was first and foremost thus why the Mark Warner staff conducted a search.
maddie had hid before on that holiday??
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So why did she and Gerry go out searching for her if she had been abducted? You conveniently forget that the woke and wandered theory was first and foremost thus why the Mark Warner staff conducted a search.
A moment's thought easily answers that one.
What might an abductor (potentially) do?
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A moment's thought easily answers that one.
What might an abductor (potentially) do?
Put her in a car and drive far away! No abductor would have taken such a risk only to abandon the child minutes later.
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Put her in a car and drive far away!
What else?
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It is certain that at some time or other the child disappeared from 5A therefore SY during their investigation must have visited 5A. For example SY must have examined the window and shutter mechanism of that bedroom. To spend tens of millions of pounds without even visiting the residence where the crime happened would be madness. The fact that we never read a report of it in the press is neither here nor there. Is anyone on this forum seriously suggesting OG have never visited the apartment?
Yes, I am.
The SY dig on the mound (not the areas outside Luz) was folly for several reasons. The one and only explanation I can give for this folly is that SY is ignorant of the incident scene.
To have examined 5A, the window and the shutter mechanism would amount to investigating a crime, which SY is not authorised to do unless it obtains formal permission.
The visit of Andy Redwood and team to Coimbra (no formal permission required) was reported.
The meeting of Nicola Wall with British and Portuguese authorities (no formal permission required) was reported.
Did SY somehow sneak in a team (detectives and possibly forensic advisers) to examine 5A interior? And surely they should have looked at exterior areas such as where various people were seen observing, looked at the Tapas area, looked at the passage between block 4 and block 5, and looked at the passage south of blocks 4 and 5, because if they didn't, they were lax.
Examination of 5A would require the approval of the owner of 5A or a search warrant.
Despite all this, not a single report in the media, not a single rumour on the ground in Luz. The simplest reason for this is that it did not happen.
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it points towards third party involvement...that's why Kate was sure there was an abduction
How can you speak for her ???
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How can you speak for her ???
Its probably what she wrote in her best seller
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As we have discussed before there is no evidence of any crime.
Children don't just disappear into thin air without criminal intervention of some kind - unless maybe you think a dingo was involved?
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Children don't just disappear into thin air without criminal intervention of some kind - unless maybe you think a dingo was involved?
Must have been that pack of wild dogs that Kate encountered what dunnit.
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Must have been that pack of wild dogs that Kate encountered what dunnit.
Maybe it was Jassi - it would have to be something along those lines if we are to believe that Madeleine woke and wandered and her disappearance did not involve a third party. Are there any bottomless pits in PdL, within likely walking distance (at night) of a 3 year old?
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Maybe it was Jassi - it would have to be something along those lines if we are to believe that Madeleine woke and wandered and her disappearance did not involve a third party. Are there any bottomless pits in PdL, within likely walking distance (at night) of a 3 year old?
No idea. You'd be better asking one of those super-sleuths who have been out there.
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Yes, I am.
The SY dig on the mound (not the areas outside Luz) was folly for several reasons. The one and only explanation I can give for this folly is that SY is ignorant of the incident scene.
To have examined 5A, the window and the shutter mechanism would amount to investigating a crime, which SY is not authorised to do unless it obtains formal permission.
The visit of Andy Redwood and team to Coimbra (no formal permission required) was reported.
The meeting of Nicola Wall with British and Portuguese authorities (no formal permission required) was reported.
Did SY somehow sneak in a team (detectives and possibly forensic advisers) to examine 5A interior? And surely they should have looked at exterior areas such as where various people were seen observing, looked at the Tapas area, looked at the passage between block 4 and block 5, and looked at the passage south of blocks 4 and 5, because if they didn't, they were lax.
Examination of 5A would require the approval of the owner of 5A or a search warrant.
Despite all this, not a single report in the media, not a single rumour on the ground in Luz. The simplest reason for this is that it did not happen.
If they did it, possibly they managed to do it under the radar; perhaps as bona fide holidaymakers ... as we know there are many points overlooking apartment 5A and many photo opportunities ... who in a holiday resort would take note of tourists taking photographs?
There was little reporting of the Oporto team visiting PdL to carry out their own reconstruction as part of the process of reopening Madeleine McCann's case ...
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/439464/Portuguese-police-held-their-own-Madeleine-McCann-reconstruction
As to the mound ... they must have had their reasons for that too. Thinking back to what might have appeared to be resistance to their presence in the town ... they were there, twiddling their thumbs awaiting permissions ... so they eliminated what they had permission to do and if that involved digging up a mound in a very prominent position in the town ... so be it ... world attention was drawn to Scotland Yard by the publicity and further delays could only result in bad press for anyone being obstructive.
That there appears to be greater inter-force cooperation enabling the investigation to progress is perfectly illustrated by the continued funding made available.
Review and scrutiny of which makes it highly likely that SY still consider there is work to be done.
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If they did it, possibly they managed to do it under the radar; perhaps as bona fide holidaymakers ... as we know there are many points overlooking apartment 5A and many photo opportunities ... who in a holiday resort would take note of tourists taking photographs?
There was little reporting of the Oporto team visiting PdL to carry out their own reconstruction as part of the process of reopening Madeleine McCann's case ...
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/439464/Portuguese-police-held-their-own-Madeleine-McCann-reconstruction
As to the mound ... they must have had their reasons for that too. Thinking back to what might have appeared to be resistance to their presence in the town ... they were there, twiddling their thumbs awaiting permissions ... so they eliminated what they had permission to do and if that involved digging up a mound in a very prominent position in the town ... so be it ... world attention was drawn to Scotland Yard by the publicity and further delays could only result in bad press for anyone being obstructive.
That there appears to be greater inter-force cooperation enabling the investigation to progress is perfectly illustrated by the continued funding made available.
Review and scrutiny of which makes it highly likely that SY still consider there is work to be done.
First of all, thanks for the link. I haven't followed the Portuguese investigation, so I'm fairly ignorant on that aspect.
A Luz site visit makes total sense. Personally, I would welcome a site visit by SY, to 5A and environs, and surely to the Smithman-related locations, and hopefully to most of Luz to get a grip on what the locale actually looks like. In fact, I'd be happy to give them a guided tour, to cut the time and effort required to get up to speed on Luz. This is despite the fact Luz would be another media feeding frenzy again. Oh, and if I WERE a guide, I'd get treated a lot worse than merely being sent to Coventry.
There very definitely IS significant resistance to SY presence in Luz. The Portuguese authorities do not engage with Luz. The UK authorities do not engage with Luz. The citizens of Luz are subject to whatever farce such authorities, with zero familiarity of the town, decide to inflict on Luz.
And the campaign that Luz is drug-ridden, burglar-ridden, paedophile-ridden with incompetent, uncooperative Portuguese authorities gets another boost.
If this disappearance had happened in your neck of the woods, and 8.5 years of similar treatment had been dished out to you, would you not be calling for a more intelligent, better approach?
Just to round off, an undercover visit is possible, though highly unlikely. To get a look at the window mechanism and shutter mechanism they would need to hire 5A. If it is still on the Ocean Club books that request would get leaked. If it is not, then perhaps the owner would keep quiet. However, trying to obtain the co-operation of the Portuguese authorities whilst simultaneously sending in an undercover team to Luz strikes me as not the sort of thing an SIO in SY would contemplate.
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I really don't think SY will walk away and accept that Portugal would not co operate with them...this is why it is taking so long and costing so much. SY will not give up and if necessary go to a higher...government.. level. the UK simply cannot and will not accept that Portugal would block a proper investigation into the disappearance of a UK citizen
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I really don't think SY will walk away and accept that Portugal would not co operate with them...this is why it is taking so long and costing so much. SY will not give up and if necessary go to a higher...government.. level. the UK simply cannot and will not accept that Portugal would block a proper investigation into the disappearance of a UK citizen
I am seeing nothing to indicate that Portuguese authorities are blocking anything that SY wants to do and that passes Portuguese legal requirements.
There is speculation in the media that SY has asked for things that are illegal under Portuguese law, and things that would be legal if they passed Portuguese requirements but have been rejected because they do not. However, I lump this into the speculation bucket.
I am seeing speculation in UK media, not Portuguese, that Portuguese authorities are being un-cooperative, obstructive or acting unduly slowly. I lump this into the 'lazy Portuguese police' bucket, until such times as someone demonstrates other ILORs getting processed and acted upon faster.
I don't think OG will cease until either the fate of Madeleine is ascertained, or OG decides there are no worthwhile avenues to investigate.
I wish they would get OG boots on the ground in Luz, as a way of speeding progress up significantly. I doubt if they requested this the Portuguese authorities would object.
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How can you speak for her ???
I'm not...
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Osborne slammed over 'tragically daft' waste of money after handing £3million to China to teach them how to play FOOTBALL
But Mr Osborne today insisted government funding for Chinese football was good value for money because it would 'significantly increase' the country's awareness of English football.
Labour's shadow sports minister Clive Efford attacked the decision to hand British money to the cash-rich Chinese government.
He said: 'George Osbourne's time would be far better spent getting the Premier League to pay the money it should be putting into grassroots sport in England, rather than spending taxpayers' money on training footballers in one of the world's richest countries.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3246295/Osborne-slammed-tragically-daft-waste-money-handing-3million-China-teach-play-FOOTBALL.html#ixzz3me0B4GXv
In my opinion the £2million pounds allocated to the Madeleine McCann case to continue what is very obviously a 'live' investigation is not the drain on public resources that some imagine.
I bet there are a lot of Junior Clubs in Britain salivating at the thought of a share of a £3million pot.
At risk of being accused of xenophobia ... at least British taxpayers' £2million over the next year is being spent to further the case of a British child who suffered an outrage over eight years ago ... made all the more worthwhile that justification has been made to allow continued funding, meaning there continues to be progression and therefore hope of finding out what happened to her.
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Osborne slammed over 'tragically daft' waste of money after handing £3million to China to teach them how to play FOOTBALL
But Mr Osborne today insisted government funding for Chinese football was good value for money because it would 'significantly increase' the country's awareness of English football.
Labour's shadow sports minister Clive Efford attacked the decision to hand British money to the cash-rich Chinese government.
He said: 'George Osbourne's time would be far better spent getting the Premier League to pay the money it should be putting into grassroots sport in England, rather than spending taxpayers' money on training footballers in one of the world's richest countries.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3246295/Osborne-slammed-tragically-daft-waste-money-handing-3million-China-teach-play-FOOTBALL.html#ixzz3me0B4GXv
In my opinion the £2million pounds allocated to the Madeleine McCann case to continue what is very obviously a 'live' investigation is not the drain on public resources that some imagine.
I bet there are a lot of Junior Clubs in Britain salivating at the thought of a share of a £3million pot.
At risk of being accused of xenophobia ... at least British taxpayers' £2million over the next year is being spent to further the case of a British child who suffered an outrage over eight years ago ... made all the more worthwhile that justification has been made to allow continued funding, meaning there continues to be progression and therefore hope of finding out what happened to her.
'.... British child who suffered an outrage over eight years ago ..'
Indeed the outrage of leaving three children unprotected and completely without any excuse.
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Osborne slammed over 'tragically daft' waste of money after handing £3million to China to teach them how to play FOOTBALL
But Mr Osborne today insisted government funding for Chinese football was good value for money because it would 'significantly increase' the country's awareness of English football.
Labour's shadow sports minister Clive Efford attacked the decision to hand British money to the cash-rich Chinese government.
He said: 'George Osbourne's time would be far better spent getting the Premier League to pay the money it should be putting into grassroots sport in England, rather than spending taxpayers' money on training footballers in one of the world's richest countries.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3246295/Osborne-slammed-tragically-daft-waste-money-handing-3million-China-teach-play-FOOTBALL.html#ixzz3me0B4GXv
In my opinion the £2million pounds allocated to the Madeleine McCann case to continue what is very obviously a 'live' investigation is not the drain on public resources that some imagine.
I bet there are a lot of Junior Clubs in Britain salivating at the thought of a share of a £3million pot.
At risk of being accused of xenophobia ... at least British taxpayers' £2million over the next year is being spent to further the case of a British child who suffered an outrage over eight years ago ... made all the more worthwhile that justification has been made to allow continued funding, meaning there continues to be progression and therefore hope of finding out what happened to her.
Not sure if China is one of the world's richest countries, but good find, nevertheless, and certainly puts the cost of investigating Madeleine's disappearance into proper context.
Add to that the chance of (possibly) solving, not one, but several 'missing children' cases, and the expense (or is expenditure a better word?) is put further into context.
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Osborne slammed over 'tragically daft' waste of money after handing £3million to China to teach them how to play FOOTBALL
But Mr Osborne today insisted government funding for Chinese football was good value for money because it would 'significantly increase' the country's awareness of English football.
Labour's shadow sports minister Clive Efford attacked the decision to hand British money to the cash-rich Chinese government.
He said: 'George Osbourne's time would be far better spent getting the Premier League to pay the money it should be putting into grassroots sport in England, rather than spending taxpayers' money on training footballers in one of the world's richest countries.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3246295/Osborne-slammed-tragically-daft-waste-money-handing-3million-China-teach-play-FOOTBALL.html#ixzz3me0B4GXv
In my opinion the £2million pounds allocated to the Madeleine McCann case to continue what is very obviously a 'live' investigation is not the drain on public resources that some imagine.
I bet there are a lot of Junior Clubs in Britain salivating at the thought of a share of a £3million pot.
At risk of being accused of xenophobia ... at least British taxpayers' £2million over the next year is being spent to further the case of a British child who suffered an outrage over eight years ago ... made all the more worthwhile that justification has been made to allow continued funding, meaning there continues to be progression and therefore hope of finding out what happened to her.
LOL
What's this about? Anticipated UK TV licensing revenue and shares in UK football clubs?
Was any money invested in sports clubs for UK kids as well, or is this another Daily Wail special that "forgot" to mention it?
I take your point though... but then I think that we both feel that investing in the Madeleine investigation is about more than finding a single missing child.
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Comparing the amount handed out by the government* to various soccer enterprises "puts into context" the amount handed out by the government for missing child cases ?
A bit like Aleksandr Orlov's dad having to compare Muskrats instead of Meerkats to make ends meet ?
* for government read UK taxpayers.
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'.... British child who suffered an outrage over eight years ago ..'
Indeed the outrage of leaving three children unprotected and completely without any excuse.
I was rather thinking about the outrage of someone feeling free to enter a residence and feeling free to steal a child. Don't you find it extraordinary that this person seems to have dropped off your radar? and the opprobrium rightfully his/hers/theirs directed instead at Madeleine McCann and her family.
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I was rather thinking about the outrage of someone feeling free to enter a residence and feeling free to steal a child. Don't you find it extraordinary that this person seems to have dropped off your radar? and the opprobrium rightfully his/hers/theirs directed instead at Madeleine McCann and her family.
I have never seen any 'opprobrium' directed at Madeleine McCann. If you have please provide cites.
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LOL
What's this about? Anticipated UK TV licensing revenue and shares in UK football clubs?
Was any money invested in sports clubs for UK kids as well, or is this another Daily Wail special that "forgot" to mention it?
I take your point though... but then I think that we both feel that investing in the Madeleine investigation is about more than finding a single missing child.
Where does it say that in the OG remit?
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LOL
What's this about? Anticipated UK TV licensing revenue and shares in UK football clubs?
Was any money invested in sports clubs for UK kids as well, or is this another Daily Wail special that "forgot" to mention it?
I take your point though... but then I think that we both feel that investing in the Madeleine investigation is about more than finding a single missing child.
Although of the school of charity begins at home ... I'm not really averse to money being given to the Chinese ... there is always the chance it may pay dividends in trade deals etc; there can also be no doubt that our indigenous population of Chinese extraction are net contributors to our economy and taxes.
I was using it as an indicator of the petty small mindedness and scrutiny of every brass farthing of expenditure on Madeleine McCann whether it be from public donations to her fund or from Government (ie taxpayers) money.
Just as there will probably be a spin-off from the Chinese football money ... I am convinced there are more spin offs than we will ever know about associated with the present searches for Madeleine.
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Although of the school of charity begins at home ... I'm not really averse to money being given to the Chinese ... there is always the chance it may pay dividends in trade deals etc; there can also be no doubt that our indigenous population of Chinese extraction are net contributors to our economy and taxes.
I was using it as an indicator of the petty small mindedness and scrutiny of every brass farthing of expenditure on Madeleine McCann whether it be from public donations to her fund or from Government (ie taxpayers) money.
Just as there will probably be a spin-off from the Chinese football money ... I am convinced there are more spin offs than we will ever know about associated with the present searches for Madeleine.
Agreed.
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Where does it say that in the OG remit?
It doesn't in the remit. Is there another ongoing operation concerning the sexual assaults, or have those been amalgated within Op Grange?
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Agreed.
Then look at it this way. Imagine it was Kerry Needham who was receiving untold millions to look for Ben and the McCanns who had received only £800000 funding. How philosophical with regard to the unparalleled funding would the faithful be then ?
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Then look at it this way. Imagine it was Kerry Needham who was receiving untold millions to look for Ben and the McCanns who had received only £800000 funding. How philosophical with regard to the unparalleled funding would the faithful be then ?
Am I supposed to be one of the "faithful"?
I'd hope that the resources allocated were proportionate to the estimated work that could be achieved, whichever missing person it concerns. If new promising leads were to emerge for anyone, then I'd expect further funds to be made available.
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Am I supposed to be one of the "faithful"?
I'd hope that the resources allocated were proportionate to the estimated work that could be achieved, whichever missing person it concerns. If new promising leads were to emerge for anyone, then I'd expect further funds to be made available.
You answer like a politician Carana.
Let me put it more simply. Would you be happy that Madeleine's case, when the review was launched, was given £800000 of funding while Ben's, at the outset, was given £5 million ?
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Is this the end...who knows...it depends what has or will be found...we just do not have enough information to make a sensible judgement...but of course that will not stop the deluded
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I have never seen any 'opprobrium' directed at Madeleine McCann. If you have please provide cites.
it is directed at the search for Maddie which is the same thing. The powers that be...those with more knowledge than us have decided that this spending is justified.....that's it...if you don't like it raise a petition to Cameron...see how many signatures you get...put your name on it...see what your neighbours think of you
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You answer like a politician Carana.
Let me put it more simply. Would you be happy that Madeleine's case, when the review was launched, was given £800000 of funding while Ben's, at the outset, was given £5 million ?
As I don't have access to the respective grant submissions with cost-based feasible action points in relation to clearly established objectives on which these grants were hopefully based, I don't see how the question can be answered with any objectivity.
On the other hand, if you do, do pass them over and I might change my view.
In the meantme, I'll stand by my earlier reply.
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30 more countries.
30 more ways to clutch at straws.
This 30 countries ILOR affair appears to be 2 years old...
Investigators from Operation Grange want to check mobile phone data from tourists who were in Praia da Luz in May 2007.
08:33, UK, Saturday 05 October 2013
Assistant Commissioners Mark Rowley and Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood are also sending formal International Letters Of Request to 30 other countries asking for assistance with their inquiry, reflecting the range of nationalities likely to have been in the town on May 3, 2007.
http://news.sky.com/story/1150028/madeleine-mccann-police-probe-phone-records
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This 30 countries ILOR affair appears to be 2 years old...
Investigators from Operation Grange want to check mobile phone data from tourists who were in Praia da Luz in May 2007.
08:33, UK, Saturday 05 October 2013
Assistant Commissioners Mark Rowley and Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood are also sending formal International Letters Of Request to 30 other countries asking for assistance with their inquiry, reflecting the range of nationalities likely to have been in the town on May 3, 2007.
http://news.sky.com/story/1150028/madeleine-mccann-police-probe-phone-records
I guess nothing that lead to finding the child or guilty parties turned up yet as a result. I wonder if 30 ILORs were actually raised as the scuttlebutt would have it they [ILORs] are not raised for "fishing trips".
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I guess nothing that lead to finding the child or guilty parties turned up yet as a result. I wonder if 30 ILORs were actually raised as the scuttlebutt would have it they [ILORs] are not raised for "fishing trips".
It depends what you mean by "fishing trips". ;)
The article was phrased "are going to". That could simply be a fielded question as to the potential maximum - which may or may not have been found necessary in the end.
On the other hand, that number of countries could be feasible: not that 30 nationalities were present on the night, but just checking on potential people who weren't legal with connections to other countries, or someone with a criminal history somewhere else in the world.
All 30 may not have been needed in the end, or it could simply have been to verify a few details, or even to pave the way if ever.
In any case, I don't see where the idea of 30 new countries comes from as opposed to the previous 30. Yet another cut-and-paste?
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For the entire duration of the SY review and investigation has there been a single photo or report of SY going in or even near 5A?
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For the entire duration of the SY review and investigation has there been a single photo or report of SY going in or even near 5A?
Does that mean that none have? Or that any Portimão / Faro / Public Ministry employee found to be leaking agsin would be in deep doo-doos, and / or that it was organised discreetly with officers in bathing costumes and beach accessories?
ETA: Not all faces are known anyway. Redwood and a few others were, but not all of them. Turning up in shorts and T-shirts may not be PT protocol, but... if it avoids a media storm, they might not have had a problem.
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Does that mean that none have? Or that any Portimão / Faro / Public Ministry employee found to be leaking agsin would be in deep doo-doos, and / or that it was organised discreetly with officers in bathing costumes and beach accessories?
ETA: Not all faces are known anyway. Redwood and a few others were, but not all of them. Turning up in shorts and T-shirts may not be PT protocol, but... if it avoids a media storm, they might not have had a problem.
I think they have been there ... if the apartment is still rented out ... they could have 'holidayed' there, failing that an arrangement could have been made with the owner.
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I think they have been there ... if the apartment is still rented out ... they could have 'holidayed' there, failing that an arrangement could have been made with the owner.
The Met said they'd done a forensic timeline.
If ever that involved a 3-D reconstruction of possibilities, based on video cameras, I doubt that it will have relied on dodgy PT statements interpreted by some lady who happened to be available on the morning of 4 May or on other dodgy statenents that were an hour out, possibly due to nothing more than a typo in the hour, and repeated for other witnesses.
If so, they may well have done their own reconstruction based on a variety of scenarios, yet dressed as "tourists".
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It depends what you mean by "fishing trips". ;)
The article was phrased "are going to". That could simply be a fielded question as to the potential maximum - which may or may not have been found necessary in the end.
On the other hand, that number of countries could be feasible: not that 30 nationalities were present on the night, but just checking on potential people who weren't legal with connections to other countries, or someone with a criminal history somewhere else in the world.
All 30 may not have been needed in the end, or it could simply have been to verify a few details, or even to pave the way if ever.
In any case, I don't see where the idea of 30 new countries comes from as opposed to the previous 30. Yet another cut-and-paste?
I guess the technical and legal bits are all in here somewhere:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/415038/MLA_Guidelines_2015.pdf
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This 30 countries ILOR affair appears to be 2 years old...
Investigators from Operation Grange want to check mobile phone data from tourists who were in Praia da Luz in May 2007.
08:33, UK, Saturday 05 October 2013
Assistant Commissioners Mark Rowley and Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood are also sending formal International Letters Of Request to 30 other countries asking for assistance with their inquiry, reflecting the range of nationalities likely to have been in the town on May 3, 2007.
http://news.sky.com/story/1150028/madeleine-mccann-police-probe-phone-records
Interesting angle.
I am now trying to think if I can crank the OC reception sheets much above 5 to 10 countries.
And were the phone companies required to keep such information this long?
Thinking .......
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Interesting angle.
I am now trying to think if I can crank the OC reception sheets much above 5 to 10 countries.
And were the phone companies required to keep such information this long?
Thinking .......
Basic information leading to identities may have been worked out, or in some cases not.. However, if someone has since moved to a different country, or came from a different country or is supposed to have been in a different country at the time, or has ties with someone in a different country, or had a criminal record in a different country... that could easily mount up, even if it's to just verify a few details on a few people.
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I think they have been there ... if the apartment is still rented out ... they could have 'holidayed' there, failing that an arrangement could have been made with the owner.
I agree. All that would be required is permission from the owner, and permission from the PJ with whom they work closely. I cannot imagine spending such a huge amount of money on the case without actually visiting the crime scene, and testing the methods of opening the shutter and window and examining the balcony and garden. We saw photos of Rebelo's team doing this in Oct 2007, so it seems likely that SY have done the same, but incognito. As Carana says they would have dressed as tourists.
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Basic information leading to identities may have been worked out, or in some cases not.. However, if someone has since moved to a different country, or came from a different country or is supposed to have been in a different country at the time, or has ties with someone in a different country, or had a criminal record in a different country... that could easily mount up, even if it's to just verify a few details on a few people.
Too many maybes and possibles there, just enough to confuse issues as usual, I think most people might fit into one of those "possibles"...it really is not the way to go when you're trying to narrow thngs down instead of making things worse....SY are not investigating any potential crime in Portugal, they are investigating just ONE
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I agree. All that would be required is permission from the owner, and permission from the PJ with whom they work closely. I cannot imagine spending such a huge amount of money on the case without actually visiting the crime scene, and testing the methods of opening the shutter and window and examining the balcony and garden. We saw photos of Rebelo's team doing this in Oct 2007, so it seems likely that SY have done the same, but incognito. As Carana says they would have dressed as tourists.
I'm not entirely sure that in the initial stages of researching Madeleine McCann's case the PJ and SY were ploughing the same furrow so SY may not have made an official request to make a site visit.
We know that the PJ did. Perhaps they allowed an observer to accompany them. Perhaps they shared intelligence which in conjunction with historic data from the PJ and the Rebelo investigation removed the necessity for a high profile presence on the streets.
But whatever, I am certain they will have made sure they were well briefed whatever method they used.
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I'm not entirely sure that in the initial stages of researching Madeleine McCann's case the PJ and SY were ploughing the same furrow so SY may not have made an official request to make a site visit.
We know that the PJ did. Perhaps they allowed an observer to accompany them. Perhaps they shared intelligence which in conjunction with historic data from the PJ and the Rebelo investigation removed the necessity for a high profile presence on the streets.
But whatever, I am certain they will have made sure they were well briefed whatever method they used.
Do we actually know whether the PJ have visited the apartment since they reopened the case in Oct 2013?
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Do we actually know whether the PJ have visited the apartment since they reopened the case in Oct 2013?
Why do you think they might have felt the need to
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Do we actually know whether the PJ have visited the apartment since they reopened the case in Oct 2013?
Apparently they were seen visiting locations within the town ... I doubt they would have missed 5A from their itinerary.
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Apparently they were seen visiting locations within the town ... I doubt they would have missed 5A from their itinerary.
They would have been rather conspicuous in suits and briefcases.
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And those sun hats with the distinctive checked band ?{)(**
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New forensics takes time to get results and it's gone quiet on that matter.
OCT 2014 - Institute president Francisco Brizida, said afterwards: “I have the certainty they went away very happy.”
“The tonic of the meeting was about the possibility of the tests on samples collected in 2007 being re-done.
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New forensics takes time to get results and it's gone quiet on that matter.
OCT 2014 - Institute president Francisco Brizida, said afterwards: “I have the certainty they went away very happy.”
“The tonic of the meeting was about the possibility of the tests on samples collected in 2007 being re-done.
One would presume it could be done quicker than in 12 months?.
Three possible states of play:
Work in progress.
Work done and no comment for public consumption
The Met were satisfied with what was done and could see no merit in having it done again.
Mesdames et Messieurs fait vos jeux.
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6 months and two milllion? bejeasus, they don't come cheap do they?
Good to know the fund has set aside money to continue the 'search' for Maddie. I wonder where they will look, and who will be doing the looking? and what will they be looking for? a child? a prepubescent child? nothing to go on... Hmm will be interesting the outcome!