Anyone Murder -suicide cases in UK where woman is the perp?

[IndigoJ]

Correct me if I am wrong but I know of no other case in the UK where the perp was a woman who murdered her family then shot herself?

it is overwhelmingly men who carry out these types of crimes . IF Shelia had carried out this crime she would have been unique. ?

[Holly Goodhead]

Correct me if I am wrong but I know of no other case in the UK where the perp was a woman who murdered her family then shot herself?

it is overwhelmingly men who carry out these types of crimes . IF Shelia had carried out this crime she would have been unique. ?

I don't have data to hand but I hear regularly in the news of mothers (and fathers) who murder their children (infanticide).  Contributory factors appear to be spousal conflict and threat of separation from the child(ren).  Murdering parents (patricide) seems to be less common.

Prof Knight at trial quoted the figures for females who commit suicide by firearms in UK.  I will dig them out.  Bearing in mind most women in the UK don't have access to firearms.   

[IndigoJ]

I don't have data to hand but I hear regularly in the news of mothers (and fathers) who murder their children (infanticide).  Contributory factors appear to be spousal conflict and threat of separation from the child(ren).  Murdering parents (patricide) seems to be less common.

Prof Knight at trial quoted the figures for females who commit suicide by firearms in UK.  I will dig them out.  Bearing in mind most women in the UK don't have access to firearms.

I've heard of fathers in the UK but not heard of mothers doing so . I believe this is the only case of it's kind where a female murdered her parents and children then committed suicide. Thanks , I would be interested to know what Prof Knight said.

[Holly Goodhead]

I've heard of fathers in the UK but not heard of mothers doing so . I believe this is the only case of it's kind where a female murdered her parents and children then committed suicide. Thanks , I would be interested to know what Prof Knight said.

I posted the following on another forum:

"When Prof Knight was subsequently re-examined by Rivlin for the defence he was asked to provide the numbers and quoted 96 confirmed cases where women committed suicide by gunshot over a 9 year period prior to 1983/4. He emphasised the fact this would be an underestimate because an appreciable number of what are suicides are called open verdicts for lack of enough evidence".

It's take from his trial testimony here page 13:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7845.msg379423#msg379423

[IndigoJ]

I posted the following on another forum:

"When Prof Knight was subsequently re-examined by Rivlin for the defence he was asked to provide the numbers and quoted 96 confirmed cases where women committed suicide by gunshot over a 9 year period prior to 1983/4. He emphasised the fact this would be an underestimate because an appreciable number of what are suicides are called open verdicts for lack of enough evidence".

It's take from his trial testimony here page 13:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7845.msg379423#msg379423

and how many of those had killed family members and then immediately afterwards killed themselves? that is what i am trying to find out i.e "murder" suicides, thanks for the link to the transcript.

[Holly Goodhead]

and how many of those had killed family members and then immediately afterwards killed themselves? that is what i am trying to find out i.e "murder" suicides, thanks for the link to the transcript.

Most parents who for whatever reason(s) feel the only option is to end the life of their children and then commit suicide are in the main thwarted by the practical obstacles of carrying out such acts.  WHF removed these obstacles in that it contained readily accessible firearms and ammunition allowing life to be extinguished with the pull of a very light trigger.  

Consider the following cases:

Lianne Smith who suffocated her children to death and then attempted to commit suicide by cutting her wrists, throats and drowning.  

Thereasa Riggi who stabbed her children to death and then attempted to take her life by jumping out a window.  She subsequently died of "natural causes" at Rampton High security prison.  

Rachel James attempted to stab her two sons to death.  One died the other survived.  She then attempted to take her own life by hanging but the cord broke.  She subsequently took her own life on the 14th anniversary of her son's death by setting herself on fire in a WC on a train.

Harrowing stories but imagine if these women had access to firearms.  Do you think they would still choose the methods they did to murder their children and then fail in their initial attempts to take their own life?  

[Caroline]

Most parents who for whatever reason(s) feel the only option is to end the life of their children and then commit suicide are in the main thwarted by the practical obstacles of carrying out such acts.  WHF removed these obstacles in that it contained readily accessible firearms and ammunition allowing life to be extinguished with the pull of a very light trigger. 

Consider the following cases:

Lianne Smith who suffocated her children to death and then attempted to commit suicide by cutting her wrists, throats and drowning. 

Thereasa Riggi who stabbed her children to death and then attempted to take her life by jumping out a window.  She subsequently died of "natural causes" at Rampton High security prison. 

Rachel James attempted to stab her two sons to death.  One died the other survived.  She then attempted to take her own life by hanging but the cord broke.  She subsequently took her own life on the 14th anniversary of her son's death by setting herself on fire in a WC on a train.

Harrowing stories but imagine if these women had access to firearms.  Do you think they would still choose the methods they did to murder their children and then fail in their initial attempts to take their own life? 

I think people would take a method they felt more familiar with and Sheila wasn't familiar with guns. If Sheila wanted to die and take her children with her, I think she would have done so in her own home in a less violent fashion.

[Holly Goodhead]

I think people would take a method they felt more familiar with and Sheila wasn't familiar with guns. If Sheila wanted to die and take her children with her, I think she would have done so in her own home in a less violent fashion.

Such as the examples above?  Cutting wrists, throats, attempting to drown, throwing self from window and setting self on fire? 

Prof Knight said women tend to use more pacific methods (suicide).  Not sure there's much pacificity about the above?  Firearms surely tick all the boxes: easy, quick, painless and a high success rate. 

[APRIL]

Such as the examples above?  Cutting wrists, throats, attempting to drown, throwing self from window and setting self on fire? 

Prof Knight said women tend to use more pacific methods (suicide).  Not sure there's much pacificity about the above?  Firearms surely tick all the boxes: easy, quick, painless and a high success rate.

Unless we're very certain that the first shot killed -and we know they didn't- can the method be described as "easy, quick, and painless"?

[IndigoJ]

Unless we're very certain that the first shot killed -and we know they didn't- can the method be described as "easy, quick, and painless"?

no , it is anything but.

[Holly Goodhead]

Unless we're very certain that the first shot killed -and we know they didn't- can the method be described as "easy, quick, and painless"?

no , it is anything but.

Dr Vanezis was able to confirm the lower gsw was non-fatal due to the haemorrhaging. 

He was specifically asked at trial about the effect (or should that be affect) in terms of any shock and pain and the bottom line is that it is very much dependent on a persons constitution.  Interestingly this seems to be in sharp contrast to the 2 gsw's NB sustained to his face where he states any slight movement of the lips and tongue would cause "extreme pain".

Murder/suicide by gsw is quick, easy and painless in relation to the methods used by the women identified above:

- Cutting writs/throat
- Drowning
- Throwing self from a height
- Hanging
- Setting self on fire

Only the last method was successful.

Burn self to death v shoot twice in neck.  I know which method I would opt for. 

The Arab Spring was started by a young man burning himself to death.   

[APRIL]

Dr Vanezis was able to confirm the lower gsw was non-fatal due to the haemorrhaging. 

He was specifically asked at trial about the effect (or should that be affect) in terms of any shock and pain and the bottom line is that it is very much dependent on a persons constitution.  Interestingly this seems to be in sharp contrast to the 2 gsw's NB sustained to his face where he states any slight movement of the lips and tongue would cause "extreme pain".

Murder/suicide by gsw is quick, easy and painless in relation to the methods used by the women identified above:

- Cutting writs/throat
- Drowning
- Throwing self from a height
- Hanging
- Setting self on fire

Only the last method was successful.

Burn self to death v shoot twice in neck.  I know which method I would opt for. 

The Arab Spring was started by a young man burning himself to death.

Mmm. I've always had the horrors contemplating the "Burnt at the stake" method of execution. Re the cutting of wrists and drowning, I've always understood both to be a very soporific way of ending things................not that anyone has ever come back to verify this.