What makes it impossible for Sheila to have commited the murders?

[puglove]

lack of prints on the gun

there was one of sheilas one of jeremys and some other partials - but guess what the police handled the rifle with no gloves on - so you would have thought it would have had their prints on it - wouldn't you?

I wish I could remember which officers admitted to handling/moving the gun and how they handled it - hopefully correctly, but I suppose they could have rubbed their hands all over it (as Sheila surely must have done) then panicked and wiped it almost completely clean. I'll have to plough through some statements, but not tonight!

[Myster]

I wish I could remember which officers admitted to handling/moving the gun and how they handled it - hopefully correctly, but I suppose they could have rubbed their hands all over it (as Sheila surely must have done) then panicked and wiped it almost completely clean. I'll have to plough through some statements, but not tonight!

If I remember correctly it was Ron Cook who said he handled the rifle by the two strap lugs at either end albeit without gloves, and placed it out of reach. The Anschutz was probably the one photographed from the stairs propped up by the side of the bedroom window.

[david1819]

Whichever way you want to spin it, there is a mountain of evidence which proves Sheila never handled any rifle or fought with Nevill before he died but you just go on believing the opposite if it makes you feel happy.  Bamber did it so get over it!

If you read my first post. I did say I believe JB committed the crime. You can't say 100% Bamber did it or 100% Shelia did because non of us where there that night and we can only speculated given the evidence we have which is in some cases mishandled contaminated/destroyed or not released.

[Andrea]

Bamber was found guilty in court, we arent speculating when we say he did it, its fact.

[adam]

Sheila had limited gun experience, Jeremy testified. Although there is a case to argue that she had 'no' gun experience.

With limited/no gun experience,  Sheila put the silencer on while in a crazy rage. Without being seen. ? 

Sheila obviously wanted to commit a silent execution.

Neville woke during the silent execution attempt ?

Sheila had limited/no experience with guns, was uncordinated, weak and holding a weak rifle.

Neville did not try to restrain Sheila for several minutes or hours. Although she was now 'going crazy'.

Neville did not wake June, who was shot with her head on the pillow.

June did not wake.

Neville rings Chelmsford police (according to Jeremy). Deciding against ringing Witham, nearby relatives, farm workers or the Foakes's. It is unsure what Sheila was doing at this time.

Neville then rings Jeremy, which is an amazing decision. There are dozens of reasons not to.  Jeremy later telling the police that Sheila would 'not be pleased to see him'. It is uncertain what Sheila was doing during this phone call.

The twins did not wake or are woken.

Neville was not able to predict that Sheila was about to fire off the rifle. Or did know it was coming but did not try to prevent this. Sheila starts firing upstairs.

Neville runs downstairs after getting four bullets. Either before June was shot, or he watched June get shot, waiting his turn. It is unsure why he abandoned everyone. He had already phoned the police and Jeremy.

Sheila brutally beat Neville downstairs without getting a mark on her.

Sheila reloads twice. To fire bullets into people who were either already dead, seriously injured or sleeping.

Sheila shoots herself upstairs with the silencer on although it was not possible to reach the trigger. 

With a bullet in her head, the silencer taken downstairs & is put in a box. Then at the back of the gun cupboard underneath other boxes dartboards and guns. There is no reasonable explanation for doing this.

Sheila wipes any vertical blood lines . Then shoots herself again upstairs away from everyone. Colin Caffell saying Sheila would have shot herself with the twins.

[Caroline]

Here you go, this is Jeremy's first WS, I'll have to search for the other reference (re: his father may have been injured). Reading this, it just also struck me as strange that he offers up info on which TV programs he'd been watching - a suspicious mind might think that this was also an attempt to bolster up his alibi.  &%+((£

[Holly Goodhead]

Here you go, this is Jeremy's first WS, I'll have to search for the other reference (re: his father may have been injured). Reading this, it just also struck me as strange that he offers up info on which TV programs he'd been watching - a suspicious mind might think that this was also an attempt to bolster up his alibi.  &%+((£

  for JB's WS's

He offers up loads of info in his WS. Sounds a bit old womanish?  He's just someone who provides loads of detail.  Look how I ramble on in my posts?  The fact he identified the three tv progs he watched I find insignificant.  I might find it significant if he wasn't big on detail in other areas but that's not the case is it?  Interestingly I remember when I read it the first time I thought how spooky he watched a program re miscarriages as in MoJ.  Then months later Saggie posted and made ref to it in terms of miscarrying babies.  See how minds interpret the same info differently? Unless we asked JB we would have no idea who is correct: miscarriages of justice or miscarrying babies. 

I find it interesting/sad that he states when he left everyone was happy.  If he wanted to set the scene why not lie/embellish that there was a tense atmosphere, arguing, SC was upset etc? 

No mention of the movement at the window.

Also note he states they left Colin's party at midnight to take SC home. And JM states in her WS 11.45pm  Obviously nothing sinister here just shows how estimated times of historical events can easily be out.  Don't forget it was a month until EP started drilling down with JB. 

JB - Midnight

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5576.0;attach=4541

JM - 11.45pm

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=282.0;attach=1010

3.10am is a funny time.  Normally you would say approx to the nearest 15 mins on the hour?  I thought he relied on others for the times of his call.  I thought JM phoned her friend from Goldhager on the 7th to ascertain a time for JB/his WS?  I can't get all hung up on the phone calls.  I can see how they could look suspicious if you're that way inclined but when I look at the bigger picture it stacks up in my mind.

My advice form your own opinions from your own research.  You sound like you've been looking for answers from JB and the little island man and gone off the rails/got confused.   

[Caroline]

As with the jury, posters attribute different weight to various aspects of the case.  The phone calls have never been a biggie for me.

You say why call JM?  And why not just go over there or phone the police?  The fact is you could present such a scenario to a cross section of society, remove the WHF case, and ask them what they would do and I think you would be surprised by all the variations.

We're not JB.  We don't have the intimate knowledge of NB and SC that JB had.  I put a lot of weight on NB's low opinion of the police and possibly state run services in general.  And his desire to keep family matters private.  Along with JB's understanding of these facts.  To my mind JB was very concerned about following NB's orders.  Not that I think NB was the authoritarian type - on the contrary - but I think JB held him in high esteem and wouldn't want to call it wrong by having police cars turn up sirens sounding, lights flashing at WHF only to find it was a manageable domestic and NB ends up feeling embarrassed especially being a local magistrate. 

If you didn't notice my post count then it shows you dont notice details and nuances which is unhelpful when trying to work out the WHF case  &%+((£

Sensible not letting your doggy on the sofa.  After all we wouldn't want you with a hairy bottom would we?    

No, we don't have intimate knowledge of SC or NB but neither do we have such knowledge about JB. But as you believe he held NB in high regard, I don't and I think he resented not being able to do the things he wanted. There was a clause in the will which stipulated that Jeremy would need to stay in farming IF he was to inherit the bulk of the estate - why would such a clause need to be included if all was hunky dory and if he was bothered about following NB's orders, why didn't he rush over there as requested, instead of wasting 26 mins (the time it would have taken him to call police if today's claims are to be believed) b....ring about looking up phone numbers?

I didn't notice your post count because it has nothing to do with the Bamber case and I'm not concerned with how many posts you made - it made no difference to me - now or then 

[Holly Goodhead]

No, we don't have intimate knowledge of SC or NB but neither do we have such knowledge about JB. But as you believe he held NB in high regard, I don't and I think he resented not being able to do the things he wanted. There was a clause in the will which stipulated that Jeremy would need to stay in farming IF he was to inherit the bulk of the estate - why would such a clause need to be included if all was hunky dory and if he was bothered about following NB's orders, why didn't he rush over there as requested, instead of wasting 26 mins (the time it would have taken him to call police if today's claims are to be believed) b....ring about looking up phone numbers?

I didn't notice your post count because it has nothing to do with the Bamber case and I'm not concerned with how many posts you made - it made no difference to me - now or then 

Caroline the very points you quite forcibly argued over for some 2 years you have now done a 360 turn on.  Are you able to create threads for discussion on the points that caused you to change your mind eg the wallet and trailer?

What was JB unable to do?  How did NB restrict him?  JB was able to travel, with the full support of his parents, and I believe chose to work in farming while doing so?  NB and June did not go straight into farming.  NB was a pilot in the RAF.  June trained as a secretary and worked in local offices as a secretary.  She then joined the Army and Navy Yeomanry and was posted to Calcutta. There's no evidence JB wanted any other career apart from diving which was a no goer due to his head injury.  Even when he worked at Little Chef and Sloppy Joes I think he was still working at WHF too?

The same could be said of SC ie I'm sure it was hoped she would marry a local farmer/landowner etc, etc.  June paid SC's modelling course.  They accepted CC a mostly out of work artist.  Adopted or not most parents allow their children to choose their own path regardless of whether ideally they want their sons/daughters to join the family firm.

Are you able to post copies of the wills please?  I guess to some degree it was out of NB and June's hands as they were tenants at WHF.  The trustees probably applied various standard restrictions about sons/daughters taking over a tenanted farm when the parents pass on?  These are no doubt complex legal issues connected to covenants? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_(law)

I'm not wasting time going round in circles covering the same ground.  I've given my reasons for believing why JB called the local police and didn't dial 999.

JB would no doubt have gone over had NB provided clear instructions.  He didn't.  The call ended abruptly and ominously. When JB called back to ascertain what was required of him he received the engaged tone TWICE. 

[Caroline]

Caroline the very points you quite forcibly argued over for some 2 years you have now done a 360 turn on.  Are you able to create threads for discussion on the points that caused you to change your mind eg the wallet and trailer?

What was JB unable to do?  How did NB restrict him?  JB was able to travel, with the full support of his parents, and I believe chose to work in farming while doing so?  NB and June did not go straight into farming.  NB was a pilot in the RAF.  June trained as a secretary and worked in local offices as a secretary.  She then joined the Army and Navy Yeomanry and was posted to Calcutta. There's no evidence JB wanted any other career apart from diving which was a no goer due to his head injury.  Even when he worked at Little Chef and Sloppy Joes I think he was still working at WHF too?

The same could be said of SC ie I'm sure it was hoped she would marry a local farmer/landowner etc, etc.  June paid SC's modelling course.  They accepted CC a mostly out of work artist.  Adopted or not most parents allow their children to choose their own path regardless of whether ideally they want their sons/daughters to join the family firm.

Are you able to post copies of the wills please?  I guess to some degree it was out of NB and June's hands as they were tenants at WHF.  The trustees probably applied various standard restrictions about sons/daughters taking over a tenanted farm when the parents pass on?  These are no doubt complex legal issues connected to covenants? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_(law)

I'm not wasting time going round in circles covering the same ground.  I've given my reasons for believing why JB called the local police and didn't dial 999.

JB would no doubt have gone over had NB provided clear instructions.  He didn't.  The call ended abruptly and ominously. When JB called back to ascertain what was required of him he received the engaged tone TWICE.

Of course it's a 360 turn around because I now think he's guilty. I don't mind sharing why I changed my mind but I don't have time to write out the whole thing now, maybe during the week I can write something down.

He was restricted in that he was expected to work at the farm and the proof of this is in the clause of the will. The Bambers left £436,000 and 300 acres of land, I repeat that if Jeremy had free reign to do as he wished (with his parents blessing), there would have beem no clause. To be fair, you are assuming they had no choice in applying the restriction, but feel to post any evidence you have.

Of course Jeremy was free to chose his own path, but NOT with the benefits he shared by working on the farm and I wouldn't call picking fruit 'farming'. Lots of people fund extended trips abroad by doing work that it easy to find, which includes fruit picking although we have no evidence to suggest this is all the work he did.

I also have made it clear why I don't believe there was any call and can't believe after what was said, that he didn't call 999. You can't get any clearer than 'Come quickly' (a request for his help and for Jeremy to come over to WHF - 'quickly') 'Sheila has gone crazy, she's got the gun' (the reason he needs help). I'd say with those instructions, it's pretty hard to argue hat Jeremy didn't understand.

[Holly Goodhead]

Of course it's a 360 turn around because I now think he's guilty. I don't mind sharing why I changed my mind but I don't have time to write out the whole thing now, maybe during the week I can write something down.

He was restricted in that he was expected to work at the farm and the proof of this is in the clause of the will. The Bambers left £436,000 and 300 acres of land, I repeat that if Jeremy had free reign to do as he wished (with his parents blessing), there would have beem no clause. To be fair, you are assuming they had no choice in applying the restriction, but feel to post any evidence you have.

Of course Jeremy was free to chose his own path, but NOT with the benefits he shared by working on the farm and I wouldn't call picking fruit 'farming'. Lots of people fund extended trips abroad by doing work that it easy to find, which includes fruit picking although we have no evidence to suggest this is all the work he did.

I also have made it clear why I don't believe there was any call and can't believe after what was said, that he didn't call 999. You can't get any clearer than 'Come quickly' (a request for his help and for Jeremy to come over to WHF - 'quickly') 'Sheila has gone crazy, she's got the gun' (the reason he needs help). I'd say with those instructions, it's pretty hard to argue hat Jeremy didn't understand.

Fruit picking... that's the first I've heard of that!  Learn something new everyday!  I believe he also did some bar work.  I don't see the big deal.  Each year thousands of young Brits take off on gap years etc and take up casual work. I did similar myself many years ago.

The wills are on Blue I believe so I would be grateful if you could post them along with the clauses.  We only have a fraction of the docs you have on Blue. I don't think I really made any assumptions about the wills just generalisations:

"Are you able to post copies of the wills please?  I guess to some degree it was out of NB and June's hands as they were tenants at WHF.  The trustees probably applied various standard restrictions about sons/daughters taking over a tenanted farm when the parents pass on?  These are no doubt complex legal issues connected to covenants?" 

You have been able to argue, quite forcibly I might add for some 2 years, that the phone calls were made as JB claimed.  Now you are able to argue the exact opposite.  How are you able to do this?  Imo because they are highly subjective with absolutely no reliable evidence to prove whether they were made as JB claimed or not.

[John]

I wish I could remember which officers admitted to handling/moving the gun and how they handled it - hopefully correctly, but I suppose they could have rubbed their hands all over it (as Sheila surely must have done) then panicked and wiped it almost completely clean. I'll have to plough through some statements, but not tonight!

The first armed response police officers who entered the master bedroom were required to lift the weapon and make it safe.  No doubt it was later returned to its position on Sheila so crimescene photos could be taken.  Safety takes priority over preserving a crime scene in such a situation.

[John]

If I remember correctly it was Ron Cook who said he handled the rifle by the two strap lugs at either end albeit without gloves, and placed it out of reach. The Anschutz was probably the one photographed from the stairs propped up by the side of the bedroom window.

Yes, that was the second move to allow Sheila's remains to be removed from the bedroom.