EU membership, should we stay or leave?

[Alfie]

Now who's quoting propaganda? 

Pardon?  What are you on about?  It is a fact that the phrase "Britain First" is somewhat toxic at the moment as it happens to be the name of a band of neo Nazis that inspired some maniac to kill an innocent woman.  Or is it propaganda to mention that fact now?

[Alfie]

No amnesty to any illegals.  Round them up and deport them!  And that includes the overstayers too!

And how do you propose to carry that out and at what cost to the public purse?

[Alfie]

So you like everyone else cannot construct a reason for staying in the EU but instead trundle out the same old rhetoric.  Why am I not surprised.

Could it be as I suspect that only those with a vested interest in remaining in the EU are going to vote #remain?

So around half the population then.  My principle reason for wishing to remain is that I think that a vote to leave will cause unprecedented economic crisis for years to come.  Leave campaigners tell me "never mind, it's only the economy, it'll be fine" but I'm sorry  - the economy drives pretty much everything else, and "don't worry, it'll be fine" doesn't really inspire much confidence.  So I'm not prepared to risk the country's economic health (and knock-on effect a meltdown would have on every single person on this island's standard of living) on some wishful thinking.  Stay in the EU, push for reform, that's what I vote for.  Now your turn to denigrate me!

[Myster]

So around half the population then.  My principle reason for wishing to remain is that I think that a vote to leave will cause unprecedented economic crisis for years to come.  Leave campaigners tell me "never mind, it's only the economy, it'll be fine" but I'm sorry  - the economy drives pretty much everything else, and "don't worry, it'll be fine" doesn't really inspire much confidence.  So I'm not prepared to risk the country's economic health (and knock-on effect a meltdown would have on every single person on this island's standard of living) on some wishful thinking.  Stay in the EU, push for reform, that's what I vote for.  Now your turn to denigrate me!

I've already voted for - "Out Demons Out!"... and my bets are on this lady eventually replacing Cameron.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/19/throw-off-the-eu-shackles-and-thriving-british-economy-will-do-e/

[Alfie]

Out of interest, if we vote out, then what happens to all the EU migrants that are here currently - here legally now, at what point, if ever, do they become illegal migrants? 

[Jean-Pierre]

So you like everyone else cannot construct a reason for staying in the EU but instead trundle out the same old rhetoric.  Why am I not surprised.

Could it be as I suspect that only those with a vested interest in remaining in the EU are going to vote #remain?

You raise a fair point John.  OK

Why do I think we should remain the EU.

Positive -

We have had an unprecedented period of peace in Europe.  Partly as a result of the EU.

We have unfettered access  to a market of getting on for 500m people.

EU laws provide harmonisation of regulations, trading laws and product specifications across 28 member states.

A vital part of our exports are invisibles, mainly banking, insurance and finance - and EU passport is essential to trading in the EU.

EU citizens can work, live study and travel freely in all member states.  This provides opportunities for many people.

We have EU migration of around 160k a year.  Migrants only come to economically successful countries. 

This comes at a cost.  We have discussed this.  Around 10bn a year.  And some immigration, but only about a half of our total current immigration. 

In the event of brexit and wishing to maintain a trade agreement with the EU we wil still contribute to the EU budget.  We will still have to allow free movement of labour.  That is the practical reality.

I do have some concerns - the EU is far from perfect and there needs some legal and accountability reforms.  There is work to be done but we need to be at the table to negotiate those reforms.  Trying to do so from outside will, in my view, simply not work.

But I have yet to see any compelling reasons to abandon the EU and all of the advantages. 

[stephen25000]

I've already voted for - "Out Demons Out!"... and my bets are on this lady eventually replacing Cameron.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/19/throw-off-the-eu-shackles-and-thriving-british-economy-will-do-e/

I have just read the article Myster and quite frankly fail to see any logic in leaving.

Why if our economy is doing so well, potentially jeopardise that, with a 'belief' that the economy will do even better, and knowing that many companies have invested here, as the UK has direct access to the EU market.

[Jean-Pierre]

I have just read the article Myster and quite frankly fail to see any logic in leaving.

Why if our economy is doing so well, potentially jeopardise that, with a 'belief' that the economy will do even better, and knowing that many companies have invested here, as the UK has direct access to the EU market.

In fairness Stephen there are some problems.  But for example Germany manages to produce a trade surplus outside the EU so it can be done under the present rules.

In essence I agree with you - why change a winning game? 

[stephen25000]

In fairness Stephen there are some problems.  But for example Germany manages to produce a trade surplus outside the EU so it can be done under the present rules.

In essence I agree with you - why change a winning game?

I agree JP, the EU is far from perfect.

However, as you say, why change a winning game.

I also believe we have a moral responsibility, which can also benefit us in the long run financially, by helping to invest in and expand the less developed economies, both inside the EU and out.

[Jean-Pierre]

I agree JP, the EU is far from perfect.

However, as you say, why change a winning game.

I also believe we have a moral responsibility, which can also benefit us in the long run financially, by helping to invest in and expand the less developed economies, both inside the EU and out.

That is a point well made, and I agree.

One of the critisisms of the EU is that they have subsidised the moving / development of manufacturing to Poland / Hungary / Romania etc etc. 

In my view you can either accept immigrant workers to your own county or take the work to their country - which has the benefit of providing economic development in the poorer parts.  It is something the Chinese are actually leading in in Africa.

[Admin]

The Daily Telegraph and The Guardian have tonight declared their allegiances in the EU referendum with the former lending support to the Leave campaign while the latter goes down the Remain road.

[Admin]

Meanwhile The Sun goes with...

[Jean-Pierre]

Usual cynical opportunism by the media. 

Mail on Sunday - remain

Daily mail - brexit

Times - remain

Sunday times - brexit

Etc etc.

Who cares so long as they can sell newspapers. 

[stephen25000]

Usual cynical opportunism by the media. 

Mail on Sunday - remain

Daily mail - brexit

Times - remain

Sunday times - brexit

Etc etc.

Who cares so long as they can sell newspapers.

Yes quite cynical, and seemingly hedging their bets.

[Jean-Pierre]

Yes quite cynical, and seemingly hedging their bets.

Would you expect anything else?  At the end of the day their function is to sell more newspapers and advertising space.