Author Topic: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?  (Read 16378 times)

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Offline Robittybob1

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2020, 12:08:26 AM »
Julie admitted Jeremy said he paid someone to kill the family.  So I don't think we should exclude the possibility of a third person appearing on the scene to tidy up at least.

Sheila's death from 2 shots- IMO the second shot was not suicide but homicide.
Sheila seems incapable of overpowering Nevill so a 3rd person could be involved there too.

These facts make me think Jeremy had arranged the killing duty with someone else otherwise he too would have seen the impossibility of the above being due to Sheila alone.

He never seems to claim the estate as his alone.

If he was aware the killings were going to happen that night does that make him guilty, (I'm thinking he could have tried to stop them).

That would be "an impossible to prove situation" so we never hear of people being charged with murder just because they knew it was highly likely to happen.

So I'm in two minds as to whether Jeremy knew it was happening or not.  He did say it was tonight or never, and he did say to Julie it was going to plan or something like those.  That to me expresses knowledge that something is about to happen, but does the mere knowledge of that make him guilty of murder?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 12:25:37 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2020, 02:39:30 AM »
Jeremy got a call from WHF and he recalls the words as "Please come over.  Your sister has gone crazy and has got the gun."

Not got "a gun" but got "the gun".   So IMO either Jeremy thought that was his father talking or he knew who was talking to him. 
In that short conversation, the caller did not say who he was.  How often do we all not recognise who is speaking to us especially if we've been woken from a sleep?

Someone else has the gun, not Jeremy, so he doesn't fall for the trap, for if the murders were in some way planned the best thing for the third person would be to eliminate Jeremy as well for it is only him who knows.

But Jeremy doesn't fall for that and calls the police.   That move saved his life but it doesn't put him out of danger.

In Andrew Hunter's Draft book on the murders at Whitehouse Farm there is substantial detail showing that there were odd bullets that were used that night, they were heavier and didn't break up when fired as did the hollow point bullets that were at WHF.
This makes one think that same gun may have been used, but different magazines were inserted once the first 10 bullets were used.  Some of the shells showed they were extracted from a magazine twice.  That is something Sheila didn't do for certain, and nearly in every occasion one bullet of this type was used on each deceased person.  As I read about this I had the feeling the third person went through the house and used one shot in each person (except Sheila) to make sure they were dead, doubly dead.

There was no way Sheila would have thought like that when she was just suicidaL.


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Offline Robittybob1

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2020, 02:57:29 AM »
When police arrived and had discussed how they were going to enter the house, at some point two officers see someone moving across an upstairs window.  OK they later convinced themselves they must have been tricked by their own imagination, but IMO they were right the first time.

What concerns me is how does this third-person either hid in the house or escaped from the house without being detected.  It seems at the early stages the house wasn't surrounded but how do you get out and have the doors locked from the inside? 
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Offline The General

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2020, 09:58:37 AM »
When police arrived and had discussed how they were going to enter the house, at some point two officers see someone moving across an upstairs window.  OK they later convinced themselves they must have been tricked by their own imagination, but IMO they were right the first time.

What concerns me is how does this third-person either hid in the house or escaped from the house without being detected.  It seems at the early stages the house wasn't surrounded but how do you get out and have the doors locked from the inside?
I wrestled with the conundrum of how Bamber managed to control the occupants and the scene single-handed for a while. But a few elements may have played in his favour that would invoke terror and compliance - he may have cut the lights and had a torch and a mask on (not a snorkel, I hasten to add) and, as the adage goes, it's easier to get two people to comply than one when you've got a gun, as you can threaten to shoot one or the other.
Point being, it's likely he didn't need help.
But just consider the unimaginable cruelty of shooting two wee lads in the head while they slept - that's an act that I struggle to comprehend, apart from the fact that Bamber clearly has the capacity to perpetrate the most reprehensible of acts.
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Offline adam

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2020, 11:03:24 AM »
I wonder what parts of the massacre were done in the dark. Bamber knew his way around WHF.

He would have kept the kitchen and hallway lights off as he got into WHF & went upstairs. The bedroom lights may have been turned on a few seconds before shots were fired. So he could ensure accurrate shots.

The kitchen fight may have been done in the dark.

The reloads and scene staging would have been with the lights on. Bamber turning them off before exiting.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #50 on: June 03, 2020, 12:16:45 PM »
I wrestled with the conundrum of how Bamber managed to control the occupants and the scene single-handed for a while. But a few elements may have played in his favour that would invoke terror and compliance - he may have cut the lights and had a torch and a mask on (not a snorkel, I hasten to add) and, as the adage goes, it's easier to get two people to comply than one when you've got a gun, as you can threaten to shoot one or the other.
Point being, it's likely he didn't need help.
But just consider the unimaginable cruelty of shooting two wee lads in the head while they slept - that's an act that I struggle to comprehend, apart from the fact that Bamber clearly has the capacity to perpetrate the most reprehensible of acts.

I think you have missed the point of the thread.  You have written your post as if Bamber was guilty.  But what I wanted to bring out is what makes you think he was guilty in the first place?
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #51 on: June 03, 2020, 12:18:35 PM »
I wonder what parts of the massacre were done in the dark. Bamber knew his way around WHF.

He would have kept the kitchen and hallway lights off as he got into WHF & went upstairs. The bedroom lights may have been turned on a few seconds before shots were fired. So he could ensure accurrate shots.

The kitchen fight may have been done in the dark.

The reloads and scene staging would have been with the lights on. Bamber turning them off before exiting.
You have definitely missed the point of the thread.  You have written your post as if Bamber was guilty.  But what I wanted to bring out is what makes you think he was guilty in the first place?

You are trying to imagine how you would do it IMO.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #52 on: June 03, 2020, 12:22:27 PM »
Once the police had renewed the locks Bamber didn't even want to hold the keys.  IMO any guilty person would have changed the locks again so that no one could go into the house snooping around finding evidence against him/her.

That action suggests to me at least he was not guilty of the murders.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 02:35:35 PM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #53 on: June 03, 2020, 12:25:44 PM »
Julie admitted Jeremy said he paid someone to kill the family.  So I don't think we should exclude the possibility of a third person appearing on the scene to tidy up at least.

Sheila's death from 2 shots- IMO the second shot was not suicide but homicide.
Sheila seems incapable of overpowering Nevill so a 3rd person could be involved there too.

These facts make me think Jeremy had arranged the killing duty with someone else otherwise he too would have seen the impossibility of the above being due to Sheila alone.

He never seems to claim the estate as his alone.

If he was aware the killings were going to happen that night does that make him guilty, (I'm thinking he could have tried to stop them).

That would be "an impossible to prove situation" so we never hear of people being charged with murder just because they knew it was highly likely to happen.

So I'm in two minds as to whether Jeremy knew it was happening or not.  He did say it was tonight or never, and he did say to Julie it was going to plan or something like those.  That to me expresses knowledge that something is about to happen, but does the mere knowledge of that make him guilty of murder?

They're not facts.

JM/JB saying this, that or the other doesn't make it factually correct.

SC sustained 2 gsw's.  The first not immediately fatal.  The second immediately fatal. The pathologist did not find anything to contradict the murder/suicide theory.  He has always maintained he is unable to conclude murder or suicide.

The pathologist was obviously aware of the full extent of NB's injuries and was not surprised a woman of SC's build was able to inflict the injuries present.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #54 on: June 03, 2020, 12:44:09 PM »
Jeremy got a call from WHF and he recalls the words as "Please come over.  Your sister has gone crazy and has got the gun."

Not got "a gun" but got "the gun".   So IMO either Jeremy thought that was his father talking or he knew who was talking to him. 
In that short conversation, the caller did not say who he was.  How often do we all not recognise who is speaking to us especially if we've been woken from a sleep?

Someone else has the gun, not Jeremy, so he doesn't fall for the trap, for if the murders were in some way planned the best thing for the third person would be to eliminate Jeremy as well for it is only him who knows.

But Jeremy doesn't fall for that and calls the police.   That move saved his life but it doesn't put him out of danger.

In Andrew Hunter's Draft book on the murders at Whitehouse Farm there is substantial detail showing that there were odd bullets that were used that night, they were heavier and didn't break up when fired as did the hollow point bullets that were at WHF.
This makes one think that same gun may have been used, but different magazines were inserted once the first 10 bullets were used.  Some of the shells showed they were extracted from a magazine twice.  That is something Sheila didn't do for certain, and nearly in every occasion one bullet of this type was used on each deceased person.  As I read about this I had the feeling the third person went through the house and used one shot in each person (except Sheila) to make sure they were dead, doubly dead.

There was no way Sheila would have thought like that when she was just suicidaL.

All cartridges used were Eley Subsonic Hollow Point. 22lr.

Some casings had markings on indicative of having been loaded into the magazine on a previous occasion(s). It isn't good practice to leave the magazine loaded as it wears the spring mechanism.  NB/JB or anyone else who used might well have returned home with a full or partially full mag and removed from the mag to preserve the spring mechanism.  There is other evidence for this happening in that the cartridges found on the worktop from a single box containing 50 exceeded the number of cartridges used on the night of the murder/suicide 26 ie there were more than 24 on the worktop.

This suggests:

a) NB emptied the mag left out by JB and the perp reloaded the mag from another source.

b) The perp used the mag left out by JB and reloaded the mag from another source.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 01:09:08 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline The General

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #55 on: June 03, 2020, 01:08:37 PM »
I think you have missed the point of the thread.  You have written your post as if Bamber was guilty.  But what I wanted to bring out is what makes you think he was guilty in the first place?
The main reason I think he's guilty is the fact that he was found guilty. So he is legally guilty.
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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #56 on: June 03, 2020, 01:21:22 PM »
Taff Jones should never have gone off to play golf - it was his crime scene. Kind of understandable why he was unwilling to change his mind about Jeremy.

I'm suprised you're still running with this myth about DCI Jones going off to play golf? 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #57 on: June 03, 2020, 01:21:44 PM »
The main reason I think he's guilty is the fact that he was found guilty. So he is legally guilty.

I  don't get your reasoning?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #58 on: June 03, 2020, 01:58:05 PM »
In my opinion one of the first things to be investigated would be who has a motive and who has the means and opportunity.

Thanks to Bamber the motive immediately became Sheila Caffell's alleged insanity and the fact that she was there in the house gave her the opportunity.

The means was also there in the form of the Anschutz,22.  But the means for whom?  It was certainly the weapon of choice for Bamber both at purchase and for shooting rabbits and if the information I have read from his time in the cadets at school is correct ... a crack shot.
Sheila Caffell as we know had none of those attributes and for those who knew her and him that in my opinion had to ring warning bells.

How dare strangers who know nothing about the inner workings of what under normal circumstances might be a family who liked to keep very much to themselves, set themselves up to pontificate about them through the prism of Bamber's black propaganda.

In my opinion family members opinions are far more informed than are those of internet strangers,

I don't think so.

Members here have the benefit of original testimony from many of the key players incl Dr Ferguson's wit stats re SC and June's long histories of mental illness.

From CC's book:

One of the most striking things about that day, although not altogether surprising for me, was the fact that, the more I talked to June and Nevill's relations, the more I realised none of them actually knew anything had been seriously wrong with Bambs - not even June's sister Pam.  Many of them said that had they known, they would have been more than willing to help and share the burden.  Why hadn't I contacted them and told them all about it?  I couldn't believe what I was hearing and could only reply by saying that I didn't feel it had been my business to betray the Bamber's confidence.  They were very private people whose decisions I had to respect - whether right or wrong.  These people had no idea how much I'd need them as allies to convince June and Nevill of how strongly I felt Bamb's treatment should have been changed".
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline adam

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #59 on: June 03, 2020, 02:19:56 PM »
You have definitely missed the point of the thread.  You have written your post as if Bamber was guilty.  But what I wanted to bring out is what makes you think he was guilty in the first place?

You are trying to imagine how you would do it IMO.

I have already posted how he did it. Which matches the crime scene.

The 60 pieces of forensic evidence makes him guilty.