Apartment Key

[Innominate]

There is the rectangular bit that isn't part of the spring latch

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2318.jpg

Is that the rectangular bit on the bottom photo? Well spotted BTW.

This would appear to be a crucial factor. Are there any descriptions of this type of anti-slam mechanism on the internet?

[Robittybob1]

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2318.jpg

Is that the rectangular bit on the bottom photo? Well spotted BTW.

This would appear to be a crucial factor. Are there any descriptions of this type of anti-slam mechanism on the internet?

Here is a first for me, using the mouse to write text. I'm usually left handed but my mouse is in my right hand.

[Alice Purjorick]

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2318.jpg

Is that the rectangular bit on the bottom photo? Well spotted BTW.

This would appear to be a crucial factor. Are there any descriptions of this type of anti-slam mechanism on the internet?

http://www.chavesareeiro.pt/Produtos/Fechaduras/Fechadurasdechavede2e4entradas.aspx

Is it an [ censored word]lam shut device or a manual security bolt/shield?
It is not clear whether the snib end of the latch is flush with the end of the "bolt/shield". A "comic" would come in handy then we would know for sure.
Also we do not know whether or not the rectangular section bit [shield]moves independently of the spring latch. Either way, from inside, they are operated by the thumb slide.
Arrange for SiL to unscrew one and do a destructive analysis of it ..

[Innominate]

http://www.chavesareeiro.pt/Produtos/Fechaduras/Fechadurasdechavede2e4entradas.aspx

Is it an [ censored word]lam shut device or a manual security bolt/shield?
It is not clear whether the snib end of the latch is flush with the end of the "bolt/shield". A "comic" would come in handy then we would know for sure.
Also we do not know whether or not the rectangular section bit [shield]moves independently of the spring latch. Either way, from inside, they are operated by the thumb slide.
Arrange for SiL to unscrew one and do a destructive analysis of it ..

If the 5A lock is like this lock: http://www.chavesareeiro.pt/Produtos/Fechaduras/FechadurastipoYale.aspx

then it would appear this is a manual mechanism - rather than automatic.

[G-Unit]

If the 5A lock is like this lock: http://www.chavesareeiro.pt/Produtos/Fechaduras/FechadurastipoYale.aspx

then it would appear this is a manual mechanism - rather than automatic.

I think that the lock was a single cylinder deadlock. That means it could be opened from inside by turning a kind of knob, but from the outside only with a key. The knob on the outside is for pulling it closed; it doesn't seem to do anything else. On the inside is a sort of knob on the lock. This is what you would use if answering the door.

So from the inside you got out by turning the knob thing, then just pulled it to with the outside door knob. For security the key could be inserted to activate the deadbolt. From the inside the deadbolt is applied by using a thumb turn.

However it's left the door can't be opened from the outside without a key. From the inside you just turn the knob unless the thumb turn has been used.

[Robittybob1]

http://www.chavesareeiro.pt/Produtos/Fechaduras/Fechadurasdechavede2e4entradas.aspx

Is it an [ censored word]lam shut device or a manual security bolt/shield?
It is not clear whether the snib end of the latch is flush with the end of the "bolt/shield". A "comic" would come in handy then we would know for sure.
Also we do not know whether or not the rectangular section bit [shield]moves independently of the spring latch. Either way, from inside, they are operated by the thumb slide.
Arrange for SiL to unscrew one and do a destructive analysis of it ..

I was thinking as long as the key is inserted the " manual security bolt/shield" would move in unison with the spring latch allowing one to shut the door.  In other words a draught could shut the door but the key is in the lock  so the door can be reopened.

[misty]

I was thinking as long as the key is inserted the " manual security bolt/shield" would move in unison with the spring latch allowing one to shut the door.  In other words a draught could shut the door but the key is in the lock  so the door can be reopened.

Are you of the opinion that the rectangular part of the snib acts as an anti-slam device without involving the matter of the key? Clearly that is crucial in determining whether or not Madeleine wandered out that door on her own volition.

[sadie]

So you told us all the places where she didn't exit, so does that just leave the front door? If the AA had a key to the apartment (how would they get that if they were targeting Madeleine?) then he could lock the front door behind him, but without the key the door had to be left open and that has not been described ass the case.  So what is your explanation for the exit portal and if it was the front door how did it end up closed?

I dont think that Madeleine exited under her own steam at all.  I think she was carried out .... but none of us were there ... and we cant be sure.

All the watching and the timing of Tannerman carrying a little girl so soon after Gerry left, make me think this was a planned and meticulously timed abduction.  The safest time would be immediately after Gerry finished his check.

IMO, a watcher/ director was watching the comings and goings from the middle balcony opposite and the minute Gerry walked down the steps and through the bottom gate the watcher signalled the go ahead to the actual lifter/abductor. 

Having signalled the go ahead he immediately went thru the building and via the back garden and back gate to the little parking area where a getaway vehicle was parked.  The watcher / director was also the get-away driver AIMO. 

The getaway failed because he spotted Gerry and Jez chatting on his route ... and also he spotted Jane T witnessing the abductor walking off with Madeleine.  He scarpered, driving off down the road in a southerly direction leaving Tannerman in  the lurch.  IMO

All this is likely given the facts of watchers observed by others, fag ends on the balcony and the very position of the balcony immediately opposite 5A with its view of the immediate approach and exits, both back and friont.  Also its direct view into 5A lounge, kitchen and maybe bathroom.    It is likely, but as yet, as far as we know, it isn't fact.   

OG might by now have proved that it is fact  ... or they may not.  We dont know.

But the perfectness of this scenario (until Gerry and Jane thwarted it), should be "left on the Table" .... and not dismissed as Gunit wishes.

AIMO

[Alice Purjorick]

My opinion is the unit is a bog standard combo dead lock and spring catch with nothing clever about it. The principle is the same everywhere just the detail varies from what folk may be used to.
A bit like this:
http://www.handleworld.co.uk/lock/Satin-Stainless-Steel/ES-LDB5525-SSS/
To avoid locking yourself out the convention is to mechanically hold the dead bolt and the spring catch disengaged not to have a chunk of metal extended beyond the striking plate to whack into the wood work to prevent the door slamming shut. In my house it's case of make sure the back is unlocked or the lead weighted stuffed toy cat is holding the door back when venturing out through the front without your key.
There's plenty of stuff on the net to go at about these locks and locks in general but if you want to invent a way to sustain a theory rather than know about how locks work then????
The lock fitted to the door of 5A could have had a Yale cylinder lock fitted instead the cruciform lock [see catalogue ref both qwerty and I posted earlier]. Had it been a Yale cylinder lock fitted I doubt this thread would exist.

[John]

Here's a clearer view of the actual lock type fitted at Ocean Club. Notice that the cruciform lock has been changed for a newer mechanism with a modern key.  This lock was fitted at apartment 6a.  Photo dated June 2010.

All one has to do to open the door is to slide the lever horizontally with ones finger.

[Robittybob1]

My opinion is the unit is a bog standard combo dead lock and spring catch with nothing clever about it. The principle is the same everywhere just the detail varies from what folk may be used to.
A bit like this:
http://www.handleworld.co.uk/lock/Satin-Stainless-Steel/ES-LDB5525-SSS/
To avoid locking yourself out the convention is to mechanically hold the dead bolt and the spring catch disengaged not to have a chunk of metal extended beyond the striking plate to whack into the wood work to prevent the door slamming shut. In my house it's case of make sure the back is unlocked or the lead weighted stuffed toy cat is holding the door back when venturing out through the front without your key.
There's plenty of stuff on the net to go at about these locks and locks in general but if you want to invent a way to sustain a theory rather than know about how locks work then????
The lock fitted to the door of 5A could have had a Yale cylinder lock fitted instead the cruciform lock [see catalogue ref both qwerty and I posted earlier]. Had it been a Yale cylinder lock fitted I doubt this thread would exist.

There is mention of the key in the statements and it wasn't a standard (Yale) key.   

[G-Unit]

I dont think that Madeleine exited under her own steam at all.  I think she was carried out .... but none of us were there ... and we cant be sure.

All the watching and the timing of Tannerman carrying a little girl so soon after Gerry left, make me think this was a planned and meticulously timed abduction.  The safest time would be immediately after Gerry finished his check.

IMO, a watcher/ director was watching the comings and goings from the middle balcony opposite and the minute Gerry walked down the steps and through the bottom gate the watcher signalled the go ahead to the actual lifter/abductor. 

Having signalled the go ahead he immediately went thru the building and via the back garden and back gate to the little parking area where a getaway vehicle was parked.  The watcher / director was also the get-away driver AIMO. 

The getaway failed because he spotted Gerry and Jez chatting on his route ... and also he spotted Jane T witnessing the abductor walking off with Madeleine.  He scarpered, driving off down the road in a southerly direction leaving Tannerman in  the lurch.  IMO

All this is likely given the facts of watchers observed by others, fag ends on the balcony and the very position of the balcony immediately opposite 5A with its view of the immediate approach and exits, both back and friont.  Also its direct view into 5A lounge, kitchen and maybe bathroom.    It is likely, but as yet, as far as we know, it isn't fact.   

OG might by now have proved that it is fact  ... or they may not.  We dont know.

But the perfectness of this scenario (until Gerry and Jane thwarted it), should be "left on the Table" .... and not dismissed as Gunit wishes.

AIMO

I have no problem with your story Sadie as long as it's not presented as fact.

[Robittybob1]

Sadie you say "I think she was carried out ...."  carried out of what?  the window, the patio door, or the front door?

[sadie]

Sadie you say "I think she was carried out ...."  carried out of what?  the window, the patio door, or the front door?

i think that Madeleine was carried out via the front door.

In by the front door and out thru the front door .... so easy and then she was passed over to Tannerman IMO.  Either Tannermman or the lifter (someone that Madeleine knew in case she woke up) pulled the front door closed using the key, so no finger prints.

IMO, The fact that when the lifter picked Madeleine up, her head would have been on his right arm, but the little girl carried by Tannerman had her head on his left arm indicates that there was a passing over of her from the one persion to the other.  However I accept that this is not proven (as far as we know) and it remains a theory.


With so many things pointing to the possibility that this theory is correct, it would , IMO, be a mistake to dismiss it as one half of this forum does. 

And I wonder why? £5%4%

[stephen25000]

i think that Madeleine was carried out via the front door.

In by the front door and out thru the front door .... so easy and then she was passed over to Tannerman IMO.  Either Tannermman or the lifter (someone that Madeleine knew in case she woke up) pulled the front door closed using the key, so no finger prints.

IMO, The fact that when the lifter picked Madeleine up, her head would have been on his right arm, but the little girl carried by Tannerman had her head on his left arm indicates that there was a passing over of her from the one persion to the other.  However I accept that this is not proven (as far as we know) and it remains a theory.


With so many things pointing to the possibility that this theory is correct, it would , IMO, be a mistake to dismiss it as one half of this forum does. 

And I wonder why? £5%4%

Yet Sadie, not a jot of forensic evidence which has come to light, to show anyone else in the apartment.