We have shown the correct location for the Smiths' sighting

[John]

I have just found the clincher in the Smiths sighting confusion.

Aoife Smith confirms exactly where they saw the man carrying the young girl that evening and this confirms that the maps being bandied about are wrong.  She states...

— Upon leaving the bar, they turned right and headed along the road for 40/50 metres. At this point, they again turned to the right and ascended a small street with stairs that give access to Rua 25 de Abril. As they were a large group (four adults and five children) they travelled apart from each other along the street with some more to the front and the others more behind. She does not remember how they were divided [who was where].
— The deponent remembers that upon reaching the top of the stairs, she looked to her left and saw a man (1) with a female child (2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres.
— The deponent crossed to the other side of Rua 25 de Abril and began walking up Rua da Escola Primária in the direction of the Estrela da Luz apartment complex.
— She did not see if the referenced individual with the child descended Rua das Escadinhas or if he continued along Rua 25 de Abril.

So there you have it from the lady herself.  She hadn't even crossed the road when they saw him walking towards them.  You will find that she was positioned just in front of the silver car shown in the google photograph, the same silver car shown in the Amaral video.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Sounds good to me John

I like this methodical approach to the evidence we have available

Seconded !

[DCI]

Same from Peter Smith, John.
They left the bar, and went up some steps that give access to a road just above. On this road they took a side street, the name of which he does not know, in the direction of Estrela da Luz. Immediately at the beginning of this road he saw an individual carrying a child, who walked normally, with a fairly quick step because he was coming downhill. It appeared normal to him, like father and daughter. He adds that this individual was coming down the street, opposite to the direction of the deponent and his family. He does not know what direction the individual took as he only saw him as they passed each other.
— Urged, states that when he passed this individual it would have been around 21H55/22H00, and at the time he was completely unaware that a child had disappeared. He only found out about the disappearance of the child the next morning through someone he knew, the son of the builder of Estrela da Luz, who was also at the airport. The witness went to the airport given that, as planned, he intended to return to Ireland on that day
— At that time he did not associate the said individual with the disappearance, only after thinking on the subject and the coincidence of the time did he infer that MADELEINE could have been the child carried by the individual that he had seen.

[icabodcrane]

I have just found the clincher in the Smiths sighting confusion.

Aoife Smith confirms exactly where they saw the man carrying the young girl that evening and this confirms that the maps being bandied about are wrong.  She states...

— Upon leaving the bar, they turned right and headed along the road for 40/50 metres. At this point, they again turned to the right and ascended a small street with stairs that give access to Rua 25 de Abril. As they were a large group (four adults and five children) they travelled apart from each other along the street with some more to the front and the others more behind. She does not remember how they were divided [who was where].
— The deponent remembers that upon reaching the top of the stairs, she looked to her left and saw a man (1) with a female child (2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres.
— The deponent crossed to the other side of Rua 25 de Abril and began walking up Rua da Escola Primária in the direction of the Estrela da Luz apartment complex.
— She did not see if the referenced individual with the child descended Rua das Escadinhas or if he continued along Rua 25 de Abril.

So there you have it from the lady herself.  She hadn't even crossed the road when they saw him walking towards them.  You will find that she was positioned just in front of the silver car shown in the google photograph, the same silver car shown in the Amaral video.

The thorough research carried out in order to support  your posts is very commendable  John

[Eleanor]

And the man Jane Tanner saw was walking  away  from that direction ...  is that correct  ?

Yes indeed, he walked away to the east from the Ocean Club.

If the abductor had gone to the West he would have immediately come to a Main Road.  He had to go East to find small back roads.

[DevilsAdvocate]

And the man Jane Tanner saw was walking  away  from that direction ...  is that correct  ?

Yes indeed, he walked away to the east from the Ocean Club.

If the abductor had gone to the West he would have immediately come to a Main Road.  He had to go East to find small back roads.

J

He still had to cross that main road to get to Rua 25 Abril irregardless of how far he would have had to walk and in whatever direction !

[Redblossom]

i don't think this is off topic too much, but why did the dogs who are trained to follow live scents, fail to find Madeleines scent on both the route that Jane Tanner says she saw a man walking with a child and the Smiths.

i mean there is no evidence Madeleine was the child seen by either of them.

[sadie]

I have just found the clincher in the Smiths sighting confusion.

Aoife Smith confirms exactly where they saw the man carrying the young girl that evening and this confirms that the maps being bandied about are wrong.  She states...

— Upon leaving the bar, they turned right and headed along the road for 40/50 metres. At this point, they again turned to the right and ascended a small street with stairs that give access to Rua 25 de Abril. As they were a large group (four adults and five children) they travelled apart from each other along the street with some more to the front and the others more behind. She does not remember how they were divided [who was where].
— The deponent remembers that upon reaching the top of the stairs, she looked to her left and saw a man (1) with a female child (2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres.
— The deponent crossed to the other side of Rua 25 de Abril and began walking up Rua da Escola Primária in the direction of the Estrela da Luz apartment complex.
— She did not see if the referenced individual with the child descended Rua das Escadinhas or if he continued along Rua 25 de Abril.





So there you have it from the lady herself.  She hadn't even crossed the road when they saw him walking towards them.  You will find that she was positioned just in front of the silver car shown in the google photograph, the same silver car shown in the Amaral video.

The thorough research carried out in order to support  your posts is very commendable  John

The deponent remembers that upon reaching the top of the stairs, she looked to her left and saw a man (1) with a female child (2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres

Rua 25 de Abril is the street that runs diagonally across the bottom of Rua d'Escola in aroughly E.S. E. direction towards the church and Sergie Malinkas.  She saw him walking along the pavement of  Rua. 25 Abril coming towards her,  He had come down the western side of Rua d'Escola from reports and diagrams.  So at that point he was moving down Rua 25 Abril in an E.S.E .direction towards the church,  I wonder if he carried on in that direction or went down the steps as shown by the red spots on the image? 

However she says he was walking along the pavement of Rua 25 Abril?  mmmm?  Let's remember neither was stationary.  Both were moving.

He came down the RH side of Rua d'Escola then turned towards the church (coming towards her direction) and she noticed him walking along that pavement in Rua 25 Abril..  That must have been just out of sight around the LH corner of the image. 

So at that stage he was certainly going in the direction of the Church.  But who knows he might have swung around and down those steps.



Wonder which way he ended up going?  Did he follow the red spots or did he go left towards the Church?

[DevilsAdvocate]

Yes, I think there were three

Bundleman
A lifter who had some connection probably to OC and who Madeleine trusted (in case she awakened)
The watcher/ getaway driver


but it could have been done with two, in which case Bundleman was lifter as well as carrying away, but somehow swopped Madeleine over in his arms without disturbijng her.  A clumsy thing to do.

Personally, I think that there was a watcher/getaway driver and the whole abduction nearly failed because that watcher failed to see Gerry and Jez chatting, (they were probably whispering with a child that sleeps badly ) and gave the go ahead when Gerry was still on the scene, yet unseen by him


There are other ideas/ theories.
Heri showed a different scenario again ... with just one abductor, which statistically, I realise, is more likely, but there are bits that niggle me with his scenario.  Probably bits of my theory might niggle him as well


We respect each others views.  And I am still waiting for an anti to come up with what they thought happened


What do you think happened DA?

Sadie I can proffer no conclusive theory as to what did or did not occur on the night that Madeleine McCann was allegedly abducted.
I come to this forum with a completely open mind and with an 'innocent until proven guilty' mindset. Gerry and Kate McCann are innocent of any wrong doing in the eyes of the Portuguese judiciary as is Robert Murat, whether there are moral issues with regard to leaving children alone in an unlocked apartment is for each individual member to make their own minds up on !

Of the two sightings I can only conclude that the Smith sighting is an independent sighting, Jane's sighting could hardly be construed as independent, as for the scent dogs of the GNR, well they do exactly 'what it says on the tin' they follow a requested scent trail overriding any periphery scents. Why they followed a trail to a car park and then abruptly stopped their search would suggest that Madeleine arrived at the car park either voluntarily i.e. awoke and wandered into harms way OR she was taken there involuntarily ! If this was the case then it is most likely she was taken from the car park in a vehicle which then negates the Smith sighting !

In essence and as I stated, nobody can offer any clear evidence of what did or did not happen, our views are merely supposition and conjecture, the unfortunate consequences of which have resulted in Gerry and Kate McCann and any persons connected to or, who have supported or helped them becoming the target of vicious heartless b........s who seem to revel in people's misery. I think the correct terminology is "Internet Trolls" !

[icabodcrane]

   

This thread is a place to debate the Smith sighting,  couldn't we keep the  'dog'  debate on one of the many threads dedicated to discussing it ?   

[ferryman]

   

This thread is a place to debate the Smith sighting,  couldn't we keep the  'dog'  debate on one of the many threads dedicated to discussing it ?

Fair comment, and it's my fault for taking the thread off-topic

My apologies ...

[icabodcrane]

   

This thread is a place to debate the Smith sighting,  couldn't we keep the  'dog'  debate on one of the many threads dedicated to discussing it ?

Fair comment, and it's my fault for taking the thread off-topic

My apologies ...

No need for apologies ferryman ...  conversations naturally develop,  and the only reason I mentioned it at all was because we already have a number of threads where the dogs  are being discussed

[Eleanor]

Threads going off topic can sometimes be really interesting.  And I am as guilty as anyone of that.

[sika]

Threads going off topic can sometimes be really interesting.  And I am as guilty as anyone of that.

What? Guilty of going off topic or of being really interesting?

[Eleanor]

Threads going off topic can sometimes be really interesting.  And I am as guilty as anyone of that.

What? Guilty of going off topic or of being really interesting?

Being really interesting, Silly.