UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on September 06, 2018, 09:29:10 AM
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This interview does not come up on a search on this site. I thought it might be worth examining for clues not covered in the file.
"Return of the Inspector to the crime scene. Gonçalo Amaral interview with Sabado Magazine"
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/115/Sabado_27_04_2017.htm
I'll copy it to help those on phones.
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Original Source: Sabado magazine Thursday 27 /04/2017
Sabado magazine Thursday 27 /04/2017 Paper Addition
With thanks to Montclair for translation
Return of the Inspector to the crime scene.
Years after the investigation which ended his career, Gonçalo Amaral explains how Maddie’s body could have disappeared: cremated with that of a British citizen
He was having dinner with a friend, after a day’s work, when near midnight 3 May 2007, he received a phone call which would influence the years to come. He gave instructions over the phone, went to the night squad and then went home. The inspector at the time couldn’t know then that he was to becomes a “worthless policeman”, pledged to a line of investigation dedicated to the presumption of guilt of a couple of English doctors, and he will be called countless times “drunk”, “womanising” and “sleazy” in the British press and on the internet." Ten years is a life. A lawsuit with a request for €1.200.000,00 compensation is very heavy burden at all levels. The economic and financial strangulation was brutal. Abruptly abandoning a successful career as a criminal investigator to defend my name and professional honour as well as of those who worked with me, is painful and irreparable” said Gonçalo Amaral, 57 years old, almost a decade after that telephone call, which informed him of the disappearance of en English child from a tourist complex in Praia da Luz, 7 kilometres from Lagoa, in the Algarve. Everything that could go wrong, went wrong. The child was Madeleine McCann.
While Gonçalo Amaral went home, in apartment 5A of Ocean Club, in Praia da Luz, the GNR “who took almost an hour to get to the place because of road works” were already there, as well as the people in the McCann group – 9 in total plus 7 children – and a PJ team. Signs of that confusing night, in which the mother screamed in the street about 22h00, “we let her down” and which there are contradictions between the friends as to the established timeline of the visits to the minors in the apartments, while they dined and drank 50 meters away, are two: a palm print of a man on the window, which would be discovered as that of an element of the scientific police, and Kate’s finger prints, on the window in the children’s bedroom, where the parents would insist that the abductor came in. But the lowered shutter showed no sign of being forced.
In the kitchen sink there were glasses of chocolate milk, which were never analysed, and which could have been used to prove the use of medication – which would have corroborated the hypothesis of accidental death and concealment of a body defended by the main coordinator of the investigation. In the family’s camera there were no photos of that night. It would be impossible to know what each English person was wearing. Also, there were no CCTV: in the complex, in the surrounding streets, petrol stations, ATMs and pharmacies. The only camera which could have registered what the Smiths will say later that they saw, witness considered important for the coordinator at the time, was ignored by the PJ and when it was identified the images were no longer available.
The Irish family had already returned home when, at the beginning of October, the McCanns having already been made arguidos, returned to the UK and were captured by the TV cameras in Leicestershire. The head of the Smith family recognised the photo of Gerry McCann holding one of the twins in his arms as the man he saw the night of 2007. The Irish family never returned to Portugal – “I don’t even know if they are still alive” – Gonçalo Amaral said as he went up the Rua da Escola Primária where the family is supposed to have come across Maddie’s father in the night of 3 May 2007 with his daughter in his arms.
The car boot
That night the twins kept sleeping, with the police, many witnesses and Ocean Club workers in the 5A apartment. They were taken still sleeping to another apartment where, later, Fiona Payne would say that she saw Kate McCann with her hand under the nose and on the mouth of the children as if to see if they were still breathing. The lead of Capol, which the mother admitted giving to the children to get them to sleep never went anywhere.
In August, the course of the investigation changed to preview the possible death of the child, with suspicion falling on the parents. The sudden change was based on biological traces gathered in the car rented by the McCanns in May. A fact that Gonçalo Amaral ignored because the initial line of investigation was that of an abduction.
In front of the apartment, the ex-inspector points to the places where the British police dogs found cadaver odour, in the small garden which leads to the interior of the apartment, in the back of the tourist complex above the swimming pool and restaurant where the group of the English dined every night, while they were there. And also in the interior of the house, behind the sofa. “In the car, where, in August, the gathering of traces was carried out with the help of the dogs, the father’s blood was found on the car key and in the boot of the car body fluids as if they had drained from above the tire well as well as hairs which the laboratory says are the same colour as Madeleine McCann’s hair. But these traces were devaluated by the English laboratory which the Portuguese police chose – “in order to not accuse us of falsifying the results”, said Amaral.
In October, in declarations to Diário de Notícias, Gonçalo Amaral criticised the British police. He was dismissed and taken off the case by the national head of the PJ. The Smith family was to come to Portugal. “Who told a journalist that the British police should worry about what was agreed in Portugal, which is to follow the line of investigation of the responsibility of the parents in the disappearance of their daughter, was me. After that, what Dr. Alípio Ribeiro said, the decision to take me off the case, in Portimão, is a consequence of that. But it also opened the door to the shelving of the case and that is what happened” he tells us 10 years later.
This week, Pedro Carmo, vice director of the PJ, said that the investigation is still being carried out, now under the authority of a team in Porto. “We have never had a case like this, nor afterwards.” A source of the Public Ministry prefers to remember that some of the strange things about this case is the existence of “two parallel investigations” and the “submission to the United Kingdom”.
Well founded suspicions
The decision of 31 December (January) 2017 by the Supreme Court, confirmed afterwards in March this year, was the confirmation of the Appeals Court decision which overturned the decision which forced Gonçalo Amaral to compensate the couple for damages caused by the publication of “Maddie: The Truth of the Lie”. Several British newspapers considered the decision “shameful”, for saying that there were “well founded suspicions” in the ex-PJ coordinator’s theory. For Gonçalo Amaral this is the “confirmation of a whole line of investigation”, shown in the book which he published in July 2008 and which led him to hell.
Maddie: A Verdade da Mentira, which never reached the British market, was translated in several countries and sold 170 thousand examples in Portugal. In 2009, the Civil Court of Lisbon ordered the freezing of all profits obtained from the book in the first case brought by the McCanns, who demanded compensation of 1.2 million euro's. Author’s copyrights and Amaral’s share in the company he created after he left the PJ, a third of his salary as director and even the Jaguar he bought it May in the name of Gonçalo Amaral Unipessoal, Lda., which never was able to offer “services of professional advice in the area of criminal investigation” were all frozen.
Near the Luz Church, where the parents were seen many times and photographed, Amaral confessed that “he never forgot the disappeared child and there are always people giving him information about the case”. This is where the coordinator who was also on the “Joana case”, disappearance in 2004 of a child, in which the mother and uncle were convicted of murder, holds on to the explanation of a perfect crime.
“One night (December 2007?) three figures were seen entering the church with a bag, through the side door, when there is a body of a lady from the UK inside and which was then sent to be cremated in Ferreira do Alentejo. It is possible that the child’s body was in the urn”, he said.
Between the 5A apartment, where the McCann family spent their holidays, and the Anglican church, Gonçalo Amaral never says the diminutive the the disappeared child’s name, Maddie, her baptismal name, nor the name of the child’s parents, Kate and Gerry McCann. For him, a decade after the facts, they are only “the missing child” and “the couple”.
PART 02
Sábado Magazine
Interview Gonçalo Amaral
The former inspector says that the PJ went along with Scotland Yard and there was servility on the part of the Public Ministry and the government in relation to the British.
By Fernanda Cachão and Mónica Palma
“There was too much diplomacy”
Outside of the judicial case, Gonçalo Amaral states that the McCanns took away any possibility he had of a professional life.
Is there a political balance to make of this case?
There is and it is very strong. Please note I never returned to the Polícia Judiciária (PJ) and the couple already. The head of the PJ and the magistrate are doing what is politically correct. In the UK and here the police headquarters went in step with Scotland Yard. They don’t investigate anything which could compromise the parents or the friends. It is a mistake. Furthermore, there cannot be parallel channels of investigation, because it is not normal that the ambassador of a foreign country comes to a scene to put pressure so that “it has to be fast”. After this meeting, the head of the PJ read a statement saying that they were looking for an abductor with which I and others did not agree. If the ambassador and even the consul had not shown up, the investigation would have been directed to what is normal, which is suspecting those who have the responsibility of the custody of the child. There was too much diplomacy.
As the coordinator didn’t you have a word to say?
I and other colleagues said what we had to say. We were told that that was the direction and afterwards we would go back to the other.
Who?
My superior at the time.
How is it that the visit of the ambassador intimidates or orientates in this way an investigation?
By the servility we have in relation to the English. The Judiciary, the Public Ministry and the government felt intimated by the UK. The mistake was the announcement speaking of an abduction.
Did Maddie’s parents receive special treatment?
In what I call my naiveness, I note the fact that they belonged to the English upper middle class and the British don’t like it when their doctors make a mess abroad and that they are convicted for it.
Ten years later, what self-criticism have you done?
I should never have retired from the PJ. I should have – and because the police never defended me or my colleagues from the insults made about us – written and published the book as a member of the PJ. I should never have allowed that we were the target of so much pressure. When the couple left, the British police who were here to cooperate and help also left. The sensation we had was that the British police were only here to protect the couple. We were too sincere and then they took advantage. For example, we sent forensic samples to the English laboratory, when the tests could have been done by a Portuguese one, so that we would not be accused of manipulating the final results. We were naïve and too diplomatic.
Is this a particularly distressful case for you?
The case in itself no. The case against me also no. The distress came from what they did to me outside of the case. The violation of my private life, the destabilisation of the person, the insults, the defamation and destroying any possibilities of a professional activity that I would like to do. I have been prevented from doing so. Things were not just done inside case, a lot was done outside of it.
Have you turned your back on the former heads of the PJ?
No, I’m just making a criticism and I have the right to do so. You don’t throw away a higher ranking officer just to protect a couple suspected, at the least, of neglecting their children which lead to the disappearance. It was almost a lack respect to take that decision (that it was an abduction) and make it public. They did not look at the case objectively. If the investigation ever does come to an end and it is proven that the parents had nothing to do with it, then that is fine."
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First thing that surprises is that it is a recent interview " Original Source: Sabado magazine Thursday 27 /04/2017
Sabado magazine Thursday 27 /04/2017 Paper Addition"
Strange that he would admit to this "Everything that could go wrong, went wrong".
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I hadn't heard of this before:
"In the kitchen sink there were glasses of chocolate milk, which were never analysed, and which could have been used to prove the use of medication – which would have corroborated the hypothesis of accidental death and concealment of a body defended by the main coordinator of the investigation."
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What is this shit and why wasn’t it in his book?
“One night (December 2007?) three figures were seen entering the church with a bag, through the side door, when there is a body of a lady from the UK inside and which was then sent to be cremated in Ferreira do Alentejo. It is possible that the child’s body was in the urn”, he said.
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What is this shit and why wasn’t it in his book?
“One night (December 2007?) three figures were seen entering the church with a bag, through the side door, when there is a body of a lady from the UK inside and which was then sent to be cremated in Ferreira do Alentejo. It is possible that the child’s body was in the urn”, he said.
Being in "December 2007" seems rather late. I'm wondering if he is suffering dementia for there are several glaring mistakes in that interview.
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In My Opinion, Goncalo Amaral has lost the plot. But then he doesn't appear to have had much hold on it from the beginning. Except possibly he saw the case as a stay out of gaol card in his trial for perjury in the Cipriano Case.
Three people sneaking into the Church seems to have passed completely unnoticed.
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I'm wondering if there is a better translation of the interview on the internet?
Can't find it yet.
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I'm wondering if there is a better translation of the interview on the internet?
Can't find it yet.
Montclair did the translation and they are a member of this forum.
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Montclair did the translation and they are a member of this forum.
I wouldn't take a bet on that. Look I can't check that. i
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I wouldn't take a bet on that. Look I can't check that. i
Montclair is a member of this forum. Last active on August the 24th. 2018.
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It’s been 11 years now. Surely in that 11 years one supporter could have learned Portuguese?
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It’s been 11 years now. Surely in that 11 years one supporter could have learned Portuguese?
How many sceptics have learned Portuguese to a point of being able to accurately translate newspaper articles in the last eleven years? Have you?
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Montclair is a member of this forum. Last active on August the 24th. 2018.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=526
Just from a quick check of Montclair's posts he certainly could be the translator.
In fact in this post he is doing translation http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2329.msg76391#msg76391
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=526
Just from a quick check of Montclair's posts he certainly could be the translator.
He is the credited translator as shown on the link you provided.
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He is the credited translator as shown on the link you provided.
OK - interesting.
There was thread discussing interviews last year http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8007.msg389163#msg389163
and http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8007.msg389167#msg389167
So expanding that "A statement is not libellous because it was from a statement made to the PJ by a so-called friend of Robert Murat and it was in the police files as well as in the newspapers."
So you could have a paid informant make a totally outrageous statement to the PJ. The PJ then leak it to the press. So thereafter Amaral can write about that outrageous comment in a book and get away with it.
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OK - interesting.
There was thread discussing interviews last year http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8007.msg389163#msg389163
and http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8007.msg389167#msg389167
So expanding that "A statement is not libellous because it was from a statement made to the PJ by a so-called friend of Robert Murat and it was in the police files as well as in the newspapers."
So you could have a paid informant make a totally outrageous statement to the PJ. The PJ then leak it to the press. So thereafter Amaral can write about that outrageous comment in a book and get away with it.
That is libellous.
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That is libellous.
I'm describing what could happen in a hypothetical situation, I'm not saying it did happen. But what I can't see is the safeguard in the Portuguese system that prevents that from happening.
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I'm describing what could happen in a hypothetical situation, I'm not saying it did happen. But what I can't see is the safeguard in the Portuguese system that prevents that from happening.
It is still libellous.
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It is still libellous.
I disagree.
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I disagree.
So you are happy for me to put forward a hypothetical situation in which the McCann’s hid Madeleine’s body and pretend she was abducted?
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So you are happy for me to put forward a hypothetical situation in which the McCann’s hid Madeleine’s body and pretend she was abducted?
Isn't that Amaral's hypothesis?
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It is still libellous.
Well tell me what in the Portuguese system that prevents that from happening? Do think RM really had sex with a cat? Did one of his friends really dob him in? Montclair who appears to live in Portugal said that information was in the local papers and he said it is in the PJ file*** therefore he felt it was OK for Amaral to write about that in his book.
I find that hard to accept.
*** I'm not sure if that is in the PJ file readable by us released at archiving.
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It’s been 11 years now. Surely in that 11 years one supporter could have learned Portuguese?
That costs time application and money.
Well one supporter reckons he is as rich as Croesus so that takes care of the money element.
Just a case of the other two now.
Then on the other hand you can make it up as you go along 8(0(*
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Well tell me what in the Portuguese system that prevents that from happening? Do think RM really had sex with a cat? Did one of his friends really dob him in? Montclair who appears to live in Portugal said that information was in the local papers and it is in the PJ file therefore he felt it was OK for Amaral to write about that in his book.
I find that hard to accept.
It's something to do with not being able to sue someone for something said in a statement given to The Police.
I am not sure what the law is regarding printing it or stating it elsewhere.
Perhaps someone can help out here.
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That costs time application and money.
Well one supporter reckons he is as rich as Croesus so that takes care of the money element.
Just a case of the other two now.
Then on the other hand you can make it up as you go along 8(0(*
Back to the theme of Amaral interviews please.
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So you are happy for me to put forward a hypothetical situation in which the McCann’s hid Madeleine’s body and pretend she was abducted?
I’d be very happy for you to do so and think it’s absurd that we can’t discuss sceptic theories on this forum.
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Here is a second version of the translation
In the original it is colour coded and one can see the alterations.
https://madmyst.blogspot.com/p/p-margin-bottom-0_81.html
"Interview de Gonçalo Amaral
Sábado magazine – 27.04.2017
Traduit par Montclair
Return of the Inspector to the crime scene.
Years after the investigation which ended his career, Gonçalo Amaral explains how Maddie’s body could have disappeared: cremated with that of a British citizen
He was having dinner with a friend, after a day’s work, when near midnight 3 May 2007, he received a phone call which would influence the years to come. He gave instructions over the phone, went to the night squad and then went home. The inspector at the time couldn’t know then that he was to becomes a “worthless policeman”, pledged to a line of investigation dedicated to the presumption of guilt of a couple of English doctors, and he will be called countless times “drunk”, “womanising” and “sleazy” in the British press and on the internet.
"Ten years is a life. A lawsuit with a request for € 1.250.000,00 compensation is very heavy burden at all levels. The economic and financial strangulation was brutal. Abruptly abandoning a successful career as a criminal investigator to defend my name and professional honour as well as of those who worked with me, is painful and irreparable.
said Gonçalo Amaral, 57 years old, almost a decade after that telephone call, which informed him of the disappearance of en English child from a tourist complex in Praia da Luz, 7 kilometres from Lagoa, in the Algarve. Everything that could go wrong, went wrong. The child was Madeleine McCann.
While Gonçalo Amaral went home, in apartment 5A of Ocean Club, in Praia da Luz, the GNR “who took almost an hour to get to the place because of road works” (il leur a fallu 20 minutes pour venir de Odiáxere) were already there, as well as the people in the McCann group – 9 in total plus 7 (8) children – and a PJ team. Signs of that confusing night, in which the mother screamed in the street about 22h00, “we let her down” and which there are contradictions between the friends as to the established timeline of the visits to the minors in the apartments, while they dined and drank 50 meters away, are two: a palm print of a man on the window (???), which would be discovered as that of an element of the scientific police, and Kate’s finger prints on the window in the children’s bedroom, where the parents would insist that the abductor came in. But the lowered shutter showed no sign of being forced.
In the kitchen sink there were glasses of chocolate milk, which were never analysed, and which could have been used to prove the use of medication (info de Ricardo Paiva à travers Astro) – which would have corroborated the hypothesis of accidental death and concealment of a body defended by the main coordinator of the investigation.
En quoi l'usage d'un tranquilisant aurait-il corroboré l'hypothèse d'une mort accidentelle ? Les médecins ne sont pas fous au point de sédater fortement leurs enfants afin de dîner tranquillement avec des gens qui n'étaient même pas leurs amis.
In the family’s camera there were no photos of that night. It would be impossible to know what each English person was wearing. Also, there were no CCTV: in the complex, in the surrounding streets, petrol stations, ATMs and pharmacies.
La vidéo surveillance est interdite au Portugal, sauf dans l'espace privé, les ATM et quelques lieux à risque.
The only camera which could have registered what the Smiths will say later that they saw, witness considered important for the coordinator at the time, was ignored by the PJ and when it was identified the images were no longer available.
Cette caméra n'était pas et n'est toujours pas orientée vers la rua da escola primaria, comme le requiert la loi.
The Irish family had already returned home when, at the beginning of October 9 of September, the McCanns having already been made arguidos, returned to the UK and were captured by the TV cameras in Leicestershire. The head of the Smith family recognised the photo of Gerry McCann holding one of the twins in his arms as the man he saw the night of 2007.
Il n'a pas reconnu de photos, lui et sa femme étaient en train de regarder les nouvelles à la TV, ont vu Gerald MC descendre de l'avions avec son fils lourdement endormi sur l'épaule et soudain ont cru reconnaître l'allure du porteur d'enfant croisé à PDL la nuit du 3/4 mai.
The Irish family never returned to Portugal – “I don’t even know if they are still alive” – Gonçalo Amaral said as he went up the Rua da Escola Primária where the family is supposed to have come across Maddie’s father in the night of 3 May 2007 with his daughter in his arms.
Cette famille est probablement revenue à PDL, y ayant un appartement où ils allaient plusieurs fois par an.
The car boot
That night the twins kept sleeping, with the police, many witnesses and Ocean Club workers in the 5A apartment. They were taken still sleeping to another apartment where, later, Fiona Payne would say that she saw Kate McCann with her hand under the nose and on the mouth of the children as if to see if they were still breathing. The lead of Capol, which the mother admitted giving to the children to get them to sleep never went anywhere.
Kate n'a jamais admis cela. Le Capol est un antihistaminique, pas un sédatif.
In August, the course of the investigation changed to preview the possible death of the child, with suspicion falling on the parents. The sudden change was based on biological traces gathered in the car rented by the McCanns in May. 3 semaines après la disparition. A fact that Gonçalo Amaral ignored because the initial line of investigation was that of an abduction.
In front of the apartment, the ex-inspector points to the places where the British police dogs found cadaver odour, in the small garden which leads to the interior of the apartment, in the back of the tourist complex above the swimming pool and restaurant where the group of the English dined every night, while they were there.
L'immeuble dans lequel habitaient les MC ne faisait pas partie du complexe touristique, il en était séparé par deux murs (dont le haut mur d'enceinte du complexe) et une large allée publique.
And also in the interior of the house, behind the sofa. “In the car, where, in August, the gathering of traces was carried out with the help of the dogs, the father’s blood was found on the car key and in the boot of the car body fluids as if they had drained from above the tire well as well as hairs which the laboratory says are the same colour as Madeleine McCann’s hair. But these traces were devaluated by the English laboratory which the Portuguese police chose – “in order to not accuse us of falsifying the results”, said Amaral.
Les Anglais ont déclaré que les analyses n'étaient pas concluantes. Il faut songer que les parents et enfants MC avaient un patrimoine génétique en commun.
In October, in declarations to Diário de Notícias, Gonçalo Amaral criticised the British police. He was dismissed and taken off the case by the national head of the PJ. The Smith family was to come to Portugal.
Who told a journalist that the British police should worry about what was agreed in Portugal, which is to follow the line of investigation of the responsibility of the parents in the disappearance of their daughter, was me. After that, what Dr. Alípio Ribeiro said, the decision to take me off the case, in Portimão, is a consequence of that. But it also opened the door to the shelving of the case and that is what happened.
he tells us 10 years later.
L'erreur majeure de Gonçalo avait été commise fin mai 2007. Il avait fait venir trois membres de la famille Smith dans l'espoir qu'il identifierait Smithman comme étant RM. Il n'en fut rien et, comme la ligne de temps établie par les TP9 fournissait à ceux-ci un alibi, GA négligea le signalement des Smiths.
This week, Pedro Carmo, vice director of the PJ, said that the investigation is still being carried out, now under the authority of a team in Porto. “We have never had a case like this, nor afterwards.” A source of the Public Ministry prefers to remember that some of the strange things about this case is the existence of “two parallel investigations” and the “submission to the United Kingdom”. Il est sûr que sans l'enquête de SY, le MP n'aurait pas rouvert le dossier MC.
Well founded suspicions
The decision of 31 December January 2017 by the Supreme Court, confirmed avec la réponse en mars à la réclamation, was the confirmation of the Appeal Court decision which overturned the decision which forced Gonçalo Amaral to compensate the couple for damages caused by the publication of “Maddie: The Truth of the Lie”. Several British newspapers lesquels ? considered the decision “shameful”, for saying that there were “well founded suspicions” in the ex-PJ coordinator’s theory. For Gonçalo Amaral this is the “confirmation of a whole line of investigation”, shown in the book which he published in July 2008 and which led him to hell.
Maddie: A Verdade da Mentira, which never reached the British market, was translated in several countries and sold 170 thousand examples in Portugal. In 2009, the Civil Court of Lisbon ordered the freezing of all profits obtained from the book in the first case brought by the McCanns, who demanded compensation of 1.2 million euro's. Author’s copyrights and Amaral’s share in the company he created after he left the PJ, a third of his salary as director and even the Jaguar he bought it May in the name of Gonçalo Amaral Unipessoal, Lda., which never was able to offer “services of professional advice in the area of criminal investigation” were all frozen.
Near the Luz Church, where the parents were seen many times and photographed, Amaral confessed that “he never forgot the disappeared child and there are always people giving him information about the case”. This is where the coordinator who was also on the “Joana case”, disappearance in 2004 of a child, in which the mother and uncle were convicted of murder, holds on to the explanation of a perfect crime.
“One night (December 2007?) three figures were seen entering the church with a bag, through the side door, when there is a body of a lady from the UK inside and which was then sent to be cremated in Ferreira do Alentejo. It is possible that the child’s body was in the urn”, he said.
Between the 5A apartment, where the McCann family spent their holidays, and the Anglican church, Gonçalo Amaral never says the diminutive of the disappeared child’s name, Maddie, her baptismal name, nor the name of the child’s parents, Kate and Gerry McCann. For him, a decade after the facts, they are only “the missing child” and “the couple”.
The former inspector says that the PJ went along with Scotland Yard and there was servility on the part of the Public Ministry and the government in relation to the British.
Fernanda Cachão and Mónica Palma
There was too much diplomacy
Outside of the judicial case, Gonçalo Amaral states that the McCanns took away any possibility he had of a professional life.
Q : Is there a political balance to make of this case?
GA : There is and it is very strong. Please note I never returned to the Polícia Judiciária (PJ) and the couple already. The head of the PJ and the magistrate are doing what is politically correct. In the UK and here the police headquarters went in step with Scotland Yard. They don’t investigate anything which could compromise the parents or the friends. It is a mistake. Furthermore, there cannot be parallel channels of investigation, because it is not normal that the ambassador of a foreign country comes to a scene to put pressure so that “it has to be fast”. After this meeting, the head of the PJ read a statement saying that they were looking for an abductor with which I and others did not agree. If the ambassador and even the consul had not shown up, the investigation would have been directed to what is normal, which is suspecting those who have the responsibility of the custody of the child. There was too much diplomacy.
Q : As the coordinator didn’t you have a word to say?
GA : I and other colleagues said what we had to say. We were told that that was the direction and afterwards we would go back to the other.
Q : Who?
GA : My superior at the time. Guilhermino Encarnaçao.
Q : How is it that the visit of the ambassador intimidates or orientates in this way an investigation?
GA : By the servility we have in relation to the English. The Judiciary, the Public Ministry and the government felt intimated by the UK. The mistake was the announcement speaking of an abduction.
Q : Did Maddie’s parents receive special treatment?
GA : In what I call my naiveness, I note the fact that they belonged to the English upper middle class and the British don’t like it when their doctors make a mess abroad and that they are convicted for it.
Q : Ten years later, what self-criticism have you done?
GA : I should never have retired from the PJ. I should have – and because the police never defended me or my colleagues from the insults made about us – written and published the book as a member of the PJ. I should never have allowed that we were the target of so much pressure. When the couple left, the British police who were here to cooperate and help also left. The sensation we had was that the British police were only here to protect the couple. We were too sincere and then they took advantage. For example, we sent forensic samples to the English laboratory, when the tests could have been done by a Portuguese one, so that we would not be accused of manipulating the final results. We were naïve and too diplomatic.
Q : Is this a particularly distressful case for you?
GA : The case in itself no. The case against me also no. The distress came from what they did to me outside of the case. The violation of my private life, the destabilisation of the person, the insults, the defamation and destroying any possibilities of a professional activity that I would like to do. I have been prevented from doing so. Things were not just done inside case, a lot was done outside of it.
Q : Have you turned your back on the former heads of the PJ?
GA : No, I’m just making a criticism and I have the right to do so. You don’t throw away a higher ranking officer just to protect a couple suspected, at the least, of neglecting their children which lead to the disappearance. It was almost a lack respect to take that decision (that it was an abduction) and make it public. They did not look at the case objectively. If the investigation ever does come to an end and it is proven that the parents had nothing to do with it, then that is fine."
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That second attempt still has "“One night (December 2007?) three figures were seen entering the church with a bag, through the side door, when there is a body of a lady from the UK inside and which was then sent to be cremated in Ferreira do Alentejo. It is possible that the child’s body was in the urn”, he said."
Why anyone would think the cremation took place in December 2007 still surprises me. Holding onto the child's body for 7 months! That can't be right.
So what was in the hire car then?
Talk about having a fertile imagination!
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I marvel at Amaral’s self criticism:
Too sincere
Too naive
Too diplomatic
Aww, bless!
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Isnt this article libellous...in as much that it portrays amaral as a total idiot
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Isnt this article libellous...in as much that it portrays amaral as a total idiot
Yet a multi million pound investigation can come up with any thing different,wonder who the idiots/s really are.
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Why is there so much French in that second translation?
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Yet a multi million pound investigation can come up with any thing different,wonder who the idiots/s really are.
How do you know what the current investigation has come up with, do they keep you abreast of all developments?
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Why is there so much French in that second translation?
I don't know, in fact the site where it came from has the issue that Chrome Translate won't translate those French sections, and my French is too rusty to understand it myself.
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How do you know what the current investigation has come up with, do they keep you abreast of all developments?
They keep no one abreast of the investigation which is why I can say without contradiction they haven't come up with any thing different despite throwing circa £12 million at it.
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I don't know, in fact the site where it came from has the issue that Chrome Translate won't translate those French sections, and my French is too rusty to understand it myself.
Oh its one of them muti translation jobs that can't be relied upon then.
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They keep no one abreast of the investigation which is why I can say without contradiction they haven't come up with any thing different despite throwing circa £12 million at it.
No you can't because I'm going to demand a cite for that claim. Prove they haven't come up with any thing different.
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They keep no one abreast of the investigation which is why I can say without contradiction they haven't come up with any thing different despite throwing circa £12 million at it.
And that statement makes sense because...? *%87
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And that statement makes sense because...? *%87
Barrier will be busy looking for a cite hopefully.
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Yet a multi million pound investigation can come up with any thing different,wonder who the idiots/s really are.
At least they understand the evidence.. Amaral didn't.... There would be no need for them to be there if the Portuguese had carried out a proper investigation in the first place
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I don't know, in fact the site where it came from has the issue that Chrome Translate won't translate those French sections, and my French is too rusty to understand it myself.
But I thought the original was in Portuguese. Translating from two languages into a third is going to cause problems.
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At least they understand the evidence.. Amaral didn't.... There would be no need for them to be there if the Portuguese had carried out a proper investigation in the first place
What should they have done differently?
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Barrier will be busy looking for a cite hopefully.
You show where the current investigation has come up with any thing different.
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You show where the current investigation has come up with any thing different.
When did the current investigation start?
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No you can't because I'm going to demand a cite for that claim. Prove they haven't come up with any thing different.
There isn't an article anywhere that will show it,as you know full well.So my point stands,unless you can provide a cite to show different,remebering its still an on going investigation so we are led to believe.
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What should they have done differently?
They start by understanding the evidence... By listening to what the experts tell them
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You show where the current investigation has come up with any thing different.
For a start, has the investigation come to the conclusion that three shadowy figures crept into the church in December 2007 with Madeleine’s corpse and put it in an English woman’s coffin for cremation?
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When did the current investigation start?
2011 OG was set up wasn't it?
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2011 OG was set up wasn't it?
So do you think they haven't come up with anything in 7 years?
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So do you think they haven't come up with anything in 7 years?
They made 4 persons arguidos didn't they? So to do that they must have had evidence sufficient to get a judge to sign off on that I believe.
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They made 4 persons arguidos didn't they? So to do that they must have had evidence sufficient to get a judge to sign off on that I believe.
So they trump the first investigation 4-3 on arguidos, big deal,they lead no where though didn't it.Nothing is better then something especially if the something is worse than the nothing.
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So they trump the first investigation 4-3 on arguidos, big deal,they lead no where though didn't it.Nothing is better then something especially if the something is worse than the nothing.
LOL. “No deal is better than a bad deal” sort of thing, la.
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No you can't because I'm going to demand a cite for that claim. Prove they haven't come up with any thing different.
One of davel’s celestial teapots.
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One of davel’s celestial teapots.
It is but it was barriers claim that he could, state as, a fact they had come up with nothing that required a cite... That's no teapot
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They keep no one abreast of the investigation which is why I can say without contradiction they haven't come up with any thing different despite throwing circa £12 million at it.
No you can't..it requires a cite
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No you can't..it requires a cite
Mark Rowley 2017 "We don't have evidence telling us if Madeleine is alive or dead".
No evidence to suggest she is alive,meaning no evidence to show Amaral is wrong,this is my side of the argument.
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So they trump the first investigation 4-3 on arguidos, big deal,they lead no where though didn't it.Nothing is better then something especially if the something is worse than the nothing.
Do you know if those arguidos were cleared or was it just another case of not enough evidence to charge them?
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Do you know if those arguidos were cleared or was it just another case of not enough evidence to charge them?
The Police clear no one.
Mark Rowley 2017 "The enquiries did not find any evidence to further implicate the individuals in the disappearance and so they are no longer subject of further investigation. "
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Mark Rowley 2017 "We don't have evidence telling us if Madeleine is alive or dead".
No evidence to suggest she is alive,meaning no evidence to show Amaral is wrong,this is my side of the argument.
It has been 11 plus years. 11 plus years to die. Amaral claim she died in the apartment. Nothing similar.
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It has been 11 plus years. 11 plus years to die. Amaral claim she died in the apartment. Nothing similar.
Nothing dissimilar either.Take 7 yrs off of that Rob, digging up the Portuguese countryside was not looking for a live person either.
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“One night (December 2007?) three figures were seen entering the church with a bag, through the side door, when there is a body of a lady from the UK inside and which was then sent to be cremated in Ferreira do Alentejo. It is possible that the child’s body was in the urn”, he said.
When Kate was being questioned they said that someone had seen her and Gerry carrying a black bag. So how many bags are there? God knows where Madeleine was supposed to have been all the time from May to December if it was the McCann's sneaking into the church to hide her body.
I really worry about the mental health of Amaral at times.
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The Police clear no one.
Mark Rowley 2017 "The enquiries did not find any evidence to further implicate the individuals in the disappearance and so they are no longer subject of further investigation. "
They do so. If a person's alibi stacks up that person would be cleared.
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Nothing dissimilar either.Take 7 yrs off of that Rob, digging up the Portuguese countryside was not looking for a live person either.
It is common practice to dig up certain areas in a missing person investigation. Often nothing is found.
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Mark Rowley 2017 "We don't have evidence telling us if Madeleine is alive or dead".
No evidence to suggest she is alive,meaning no evidence to show Amaral is wrong,this is my side of the argument.
You are quoting Rowley who said Maddie was abducted.... Rather contradicts amaral
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You are quoting Rowley who said Maddie was abducted.... Rather contradicts amaral
Martin Brunt(him again) to Pedro da Carmo "do you accept that she was abducted"
Reply "we don't know what happened"
Go on ask for a cite you know you want to.
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Martin Brunt(him again) to Pedro da Carmo "do you accept that she was abducted"
Reply "we don't know what happened"
Go on ask for a cite you know you want to.
You quoted Rowley... As I did...
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You quoted Rowley... As I did...
I've also quoted da Carmo whose opinion carries more weight imo.
Edit for misplaced word.
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I've also quoted da Carmo whose opinion being carries more weight imo.
I really dint thing the Portuguese, are doing any investigating... Just paying lip service to SY
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I really dint thing the Portuguese, are doing any investigating... Just paying lip service to SY
Waiting for them to catch up.
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Waiting for them to catch up.
Carmo has also said there is no evidence against the mccanns
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Carmo has also said there is no evidence against the mccanns
Quote him in full Davel - no evidence against the McCanns at this time. "At this time" always made me think the PJ are still hedging their bets.
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Quote him in full Davel - no evidence against the McCanns at this time. "At this time" always made me think the PJ are still hedging their bets.
I don't really think your post makes any real sense... Are the PJ hoping some will turn up... That makes them look foolish and isn't true imo
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I don't really think your post makes any real sense... Are the PJ hoping some will turn up... That makes them look foolish and isn't true imo
Yeah they seem forever hopeful of solving the case their way. What isn't true? Are you calling me a liar?
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Yeah they seem forever hopeful of solving the case their way. What isn't true? Are you calling me a liar?
Read the post again it's quite clear what I am saying.... Your post is goading
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Yeah they seem forever hopeful of solving the case their way. What isn't true? Are you calling me a liar?
What is, there way... They don't seem to be doing any investigation... John mentioned before... And I agree... Did they just re-open the investigation to facilitate SY
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Read the post again it's quite clear what I am saying.... Your post is goading
What because I said "Are you calling me a liar?" does that make it goading? Lighten up D!
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What because I said "Are you calling me a liar?" does that make it goading? Lighten up D!
Cut the personal comments... Goading again.. What makes you think I need to lighten up... I dont
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What is, there way... They don't seem to be doing any investigation... John mentioned before... And I agree... Did they just re-open the investigation to facilitate SY
As long as they don't reappoint GA we might get a result.
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As long as they don't reappoint GA we might get a result.
As, I said I don't think they are investigating
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As, I said I don't think they are investigating
The British talk of cooperation between the teams, that is a start, at least they can have lunch and a class of wine together.
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The British talk of cooperation between the teams, that is a start, at least they can have lunch and a class of wine together.
Do UK police drink alcohol at lunchtime... I wouldn't have thought so
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Do UK police drink alcohol at lunchtime... I wouldn't have thought so
Do you watch Coronation Street? That is where I get my education on English culture.
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Do you watch Coronation Street? That is where I get my education on English culture.
No I don't watch it
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Do you watch Coronation Street? That is where I get my education on English culture.
You need to get down and dirty with Countryfile.
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Do you watch Coronation Street? That is where I get my education on English culture.
@)(++(*
Possibly watch East Ender's too.
That will give you an even better education on English Culture.
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Do UK police drink alcohol at lunchtime... I wouldn't have thought so
What, never?
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What, never?
I think it's, a practice that has, died out....
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@)(++(*
Possibly watch East Ender's too.
That will give you an even better education on English Culture.
We probably can't afford both series. I've never watched it myself.
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What, never?
From the Met’s police handbook
1.63 Police officers do not purchase or consume alcohol when on duty, unless specifically authorised to do so or it becomes necessary for the proper discharge of a particular police duty.
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From the Met’s police handbook
1.63 Police officers do not purchase or consume alcohol when on duty, unless specifically authorised to do so or it becomes necessary for the proper discharge of a particular police duty.
What about the rule "when in Rome do as the Romans do".
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What about the rule "when in Rome do as the Romans do".
leave it out Rob the brit police are whiter than white,they do get their leg over in the line of duty though.
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leave it out Rob the brit police are whiter than white,they do get their leg over in the line of duty though.
Animals!
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From the Met’s police handbook
1.63 Police officers do not purchase or consume alcohol when on duty, unless specifically authorised to do so or it becomes necessary for the proper discharge of a particular police duty.
Didn't amaral have long boozy lunches... He wouldn't be fit for much in the afternoon... Then back boozing after work. It was midnight and he was, still out boozing when he was contacted Re Maddie's disappearance.... That's no way for a professional to behave
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We probably can't afford both series. I've never watched it myself.
I gave up watching any "soap" a long long time ago.
Dreary, depressing and boring !
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I gave up watching any "soap" a long long time ago.
Dreary, depressing and boring !
I love Coronation Street, I find it is a study in human relationships. Where you expect the unexpected, all twists and turns. A work of genius.
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I hadn't heard of this before:
"In the kitchen sink there were glasses of chocolate milk, which were never analysed, and which could have been used to prove the use of medication – which would have corroborated the hypothesis of accidental death and concealment of a body defended by the main coordinator of the investigation."
THURSDAY, MAY 3: Milk and biscuits for the kids. I left them with this and books and games and went to have a quick shower/wash my hair. M (Madeleine) tired—sitting on my lap—I read the story of Mog (favourite children’s book).
Brush teeth. To the bedroom with the kids. M pulls away and puts her head on pillow. Kisses goodnight for M. Pulled the door to as far as possible without shutting it. Silence.
Dry hair. Put make-up on. Glass of wine. Restaurant.
I left them with the milk and went to take a shower - maybe the kids turned it into a chocolate one. She should've mentioned the shower to David Payne 8(0(*
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Carmo has also said there is no evidence against the mccanns
Like so many, he's moved on. Someone else will be in charge of speaking now.
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THURSDAY, MAY 3: Milk and biscuits for the kids. I left them with this and books and games and went to have a quick shower/wash my hair. M (Madeleine) tired—sitting on my lap—I read the story of Mog (favourite children’s book).
Brush teeth. To the bedroom with the kids. M pulls away and puts her head on pillow. Kisses goodnight for M. Pulled the door to as far as possible without shutting it. Silence.
Dry hair. Put make-up on. Glass of wine. Restaurant.
I left them with the milk and went to take a shower - maybe the kids turned it into a chocolate one. She should've mentioned the shower to David Payne 8(0(*
And that is from her personal diary isn't it? You should try and show where the quote starts and finishes thanks.
"I left them with the milk and went to take a shower - maybe the kids turned it into a chocolate one", are your words aren't they?
Was Kate writing the diary before Madeleine went missing?
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Restaurant last word will highlight
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Didn't amaral have long boozy lunches... He wouldn't be fit for much in the afternoon... Then back boozing after work. It was midnight and he was, still out boozing when he was contacted Re Maddie's disappearance.... That's no way for a professional to behave
Having a glass or two of wine does not equate to being drunk, especially when taken with a meal.
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Having a glass or two of wine does not equate to being drunk, especially when taken with a meal.
A beer first thing in the morning is great.
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Having a glass or two of wine does not equate to being drunk, especially when taken with a meal.
Should detectives working on a case be drinking during the day at all? It seems rather unprofessional to me, and two glasses of wine could certainly impair judgement particularly when driving away from the bar.
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And that is from her personal diary isn't it? You should try and show where the quote starts and finishes thanks.
"I left them with the milk and went to take a shower - maybe the kids turned it into a chocolate one", are your words aren't they?
Was Kate writing the diary before Madeleine went missing?
I believe that Kate had always kept a diary but the one the Portuguese police made copies of and were instructed to destroy by a magistrate, is the one which Kate had begun for Madeleine after her disappearance * but instead of being destroyed was given to the press and caused great distress ... as detailed in the Leveson Inquiry transcript. **
Therefore a diary entry dated on 3rd May 2007 is nothing but a fabrication.
*
Madeleine McCann mother's diary of love
By Emma Henry11:47AM BST 13 Sep 2007
The diary that the Portuguese prosecutor wants to seize was started by Madeleine McCann's mother to prove to her missing daughter that she had not been forgotten.
Kate McCann kept a handwritten journal during her four months in Portugal, and was frequently seen writing in it after Madeleine disappeared from the family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz on May 3.
Philomena McCann, Mr McCann's sister, said she advised her sister-in-law, who is now a formal suspect in the case, to keep the diary to show Madeleine how much they loved her.
She told The Sun: "I asked Kate to keep this journal because at first the Portuguese police were doing very little.
"A lot of the things that happened were only because of the family contacting the media.
"So I said to Kate that it would be a good idea if someone wrote down, for Madeleine, notes on everything that was happening, because we have to prove to Madeleine how much we looked for her and how much we love her.
"That wee girl will be thinking, 'They're not looking for me. My mummy, daddy and my aunties - they don't love me because they can't find me'. "I was just thinking about how insecure Madeleine would be, so Kate has been keeping that journal faithfully every day.
"She's been writing down everything that we've been doing so we can prove to Madeleine that we have worked so hard to try and find her, that we've put our lives on hold to search for her and show our love for her is unending."
Ms McCann questioned why the Portuguese authorities wanted the diary now, saying: "God knows what they are expecting to find.
"And why didn't they ask for it before? It's just another way to stick the knife in."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1562993/Madeleine-McCann-mothers-diary-of-love.html
**
89.
The diary itself had been seized by the PJ in August 2007. This was the only possible
source from whom the NotWcould have obtained the diary and they therefore must
have been aware that it had been obtained without Kate’s consent, was a serious
breach of privacy and confidence and a breach of copyright.
90.
Of more concern was that when we investigated this leak it became apparent that
there was an order from a Portuguese Judge which stated that the PJ should return
the diary to Kate and destroy all copies in its possession, given it had no relevance to
the investigatior~ and use of it would be a violation of its author. As a result we are
unsure as to how the NotWobtained a copy.
91.
Further the text that was published in the NotWdid not match Kate’s actual diaries. It
would appear that it was an English translation of a Portuguese translation of the
original diaries made for the PJ. As you would suspect some things were lost in
translation.
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20140122164630/http://www.levesoninquiry.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Witness-Statement-of-Gerald-Patrick-McCann.pdf
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I would be very surprised if any of it was a fabrication. In fact I found that you think so quite shocking actually.
I could accept that Kate backdated some entries for the first few days after it was suggested that she do the diary.
But from reading your post it definitely sounds as if they were expecting Madeleine to read Kate's diary at sometime in the future.
""So I said to Kate that it would be a good idea if someone wrote down, for Madeleine, notes on everything that was happening, because we have to prove to Madeleine how much we looked for her and how much we love her."
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I would be very surprised if any of it was a fabrication. In fact I found that you think so quite shocking actually.
I could accept that Kate backdated some entries for the first few days after it was suggested that she do the diary.
But from reading your post it definitely sounds as if they were expecting Madeleine to read Kate's diary at sometime in the future.
""So I said to Kate that it would be a good idea if someone wrote down, for Madeleine, notes on everything that was happening, because we have to prove to Madeleine how much we looked for her and how much we love her."
Witness statement of Kate Marie Healy, on the 6th of September 2007
She read a story to the children in the living room, on the sofa in front of the door to the veranda, identified on the diagram with the letter D. At 7:00 PM Gerry arrived and entered via the veranda door. He sat on the sofa identified with letter E. Doesn't know if the story was finished, but thinks she was sitting on the sofa. [..]
After Gerry arrived the children went to wash their teeth and she then read them another story, this time all four of them sitting on Madeleine's bed. She thinks that Gerry entered the room, but does not recall him sitting on the bed.
Witness statement of Gerald Patrick McCann, on the 10th of May 2007
At around 19H00, he made his way to the apartment, finding KATE and the children playing on the sofa. About 10 to 15 minutes later, they took the children to the bedroom and they all sat on MADELEINE's bed to read a story. At 19H30, the twins were already in their respective cots and MADELEINE in the bed next to the bedroom door. He does not know if they were asleep but from the silence he presumed that they were. As it was still early he took a bath, he thinks that KATE had already done so, they talked a little and drank wine or beer.
The post you responded to taken from Websleuths perhaps? difficult to say as there was no source given ... is at variance with what the witnesses say happened ... nor does it read as anything like a diary entry written to inform a little girl of her parent's efforts to find her.
Snip
THURSDAY, MAY 3: Milk and biscuits for the kids. I left them with this and books and games and went to have a quick shower/wash my hair. M (Madeleine) tired—sitting on my lap—I read the story of Mog (favourite children’s book).
Brush teeth. To the bedroom with the kids. M pulls away and puts her head on pillow. Kisses goodnight for M. Pulled the door to as far as possible without shutting it. Silence.
Dry hair. Put make-up on. Glass of wine. Restaurant.
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That was a good reply, but the diary entry is only a diary entry, a story to to be read later. Thanks for that.
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Having a glass or two of wine does not equate to being drunk, especially when taken with a meal.
Would it be acceptable for a heart surgeon to have a glass or two of wine with his lunch... If not why not..
It seems the met have a zero tolerance for very good reasons... I'm fairly sure it's been shown one glass of wine can impair judgement
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/amp/321255
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Having a glass or two of wine does not equate to being drunk, especially when taken with a meal.
Sorry forgot the attribution...that was from Sadie.
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Sorry forgot the attribution...that was from Sadie.
So you accept amarals, drinking was unnacceptable
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“One night (December 2007?) three figures were seen entering the church with a bag, through the side door, when there is a body of a lady from the UK inside and which was then sent to be cremated in Ferreira do Alentejo. It is possible that the child’s body was in the urn”, he said.
When Kate was being questioned they said that someone had seen her and Gerry carrying a black bag. So how many bags are there? God knows where Madeleine was supposed to have been all the time from May to December if it was the McCann's sneaking into the church to hide her body.
I really worry about the mental health of Amaral at times.
Why would people question his mental health? He lead an investigation where he concluded a child had probably died and then had to consider scenarios in which a body was concealed and disposed of.
The December date is obviously not a direct quote from Amaral or it wouldn't be in brackets with a '?'. It's not a surprise that detractors of Amaral would make no effort at all to try and clarify what he actually said about concealment of a body but accept a glaringly obvious error because it makes Amaral look bad. In other interviews it seems apparent that the cremation in Church theory came from information gathered from others on the case and was in the period in which the McCanns had a key to the church and were visitors of it, ie. in the month after their daughter went missing.
Transcript from CMTV interview, 23/04/16
Anchor - I would like for you to tell us in detail your explanation for the disappearance of the body, you have a thesis..
Gonçalo Amaral - No, I don't have one.
Anchor - ... in this book...
Gonçalo Amaral - No, in that book there isn't anything concerning what we just saw me saying on the news piece that was shown. Because these are elements, these are information that appeared afterwards and were never investigated. It's just an hypothesis, and when considering that hypothesis...
Anchor - An hypothesis that Madeleine's body could have been hidden, could have been incinerated, right?
Gonçalo Amaral - There's an information here, in the police, that mentions that. That in a night, three figures were seen carrying a bag, entering the church...
Anchor - In the Praia da Luz church.
Gonçalo Amaral - In that church was a coffin of a woman, a woman from the United Kingdom...
Anchor - Of a British woman.
Gonçalo Amaral - ... and in the following day that coffin was transferred to Ferreira do Alentejo to be incinerated. But no one is saying that the parents did that, or saying who did that. It's something that someone who is on the field investigating has to ascertain, must investigate thoroughly.
Anchor - But you concede that hypothesis, that possibility of Madeleine's cadaver being taken to the church, and then incinerated is a plausible hypothesis...
Gonçalo Amaral - We're practically starting by the end, first is the disappearance, if you allow me to explain, to explain to the viewers... [overlapping speech]
Anchor - I'll allow you, but just so not to lose this train of thought, is this hypothesis plausible for you?
Gonçalo Amaral - It is plausible, and I say plausible in this sense, that that body would fit underneath the cadaver that was already there.
Anchor - And it would fit?
Gonçalo Amaral - It would, yes. At the time, when I was already out of the Judiciary Police I obtained the opinion of people that dealt with that, of funeral agencies, and they said that it was a possibility. It's an opinion that is not officialized but it's a possibility. If it happened like that or not, we don't know, there are several hypotheses to make a body disappear.
Liverpool Echo, 2014
Speaking earlier to a Portuguese newspaper and its TV channel, Amaral, sacked after botching the initial hunt for Madeleine, repeated his claims the youngster is dead.
But he suggested the McCanns hid her body in the woman’s coffin at Praia da Luz catholic church – which they had a key for – a month after she vanished in 2007.
Amaral added: “The mystery will only end when the McCann couple are no longer being protected. Only then will we understand the truth.”
But a source close to the couple said: “These are sickening allegations that no sane person would believe.
“It’s about time people realised what Mr Amaral is, a liar and a fantasist. He has been making these false claims since he was sacked.
“He is suggesting Kate and Gerry moved Madeleine’s body a month after she vanished.
So Amaral says it is just one possibility that would have to be investigated in an investigation of this kind and that it happened up to a month after the disappearance. Note the fact that 'a source close to the couple' felt the need to counter this theory even though 'no sane person would believe' it.
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Why would people question his mental health? He lead an investigation where he concluded a child had probably died and then had to consider scenarios in which a body was concealed and disposed of.
The December date is obviously not a direct quote from Amaral or it wouldn't be in brackets with a '?'. It's not a surprise that detractors of Amaral would make no effort at all to try and clarify what he actually said about concealment of a body but accept a glaringly obvious error because it makes Amaral look bad. In other interviews it seems apparent that the cremation in Church theory came from information gathered from others on the case and was in the period in which the McCanns had a key to the church and were visitors of it, ie. in the month after their daughter went missing.
Transcript from CMTV interview, 23/04/16
Liverpool Echo, 2014
So Amaral says it is just one possibility that would have to be investigated in an investigation of this kind and that it happened up to a month after the disappearance. Note the fact that 'a source close to the couple' felt the need to counter this theory even though 'no sane person would believe' it.
So if you support amaral who do you think is protecting the McCann's as he claims.. Why are they being protected by MI5
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So if you support amaral who do you think is protecting the McCann's as he claims.. Why are they being protected by MI5
In my opinion? Maybe someone who was there that night works for Mi5 and delving into their background would
be damaging for the UK.
No doubt this will be painted as some 'wild conspiracy theory' to prove that anyone who disbelieves the McCann's story is crazy, into little green men and the illuminati!
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In my opinion? Maybe someone who was there that night works for Mi5 and delving into their background would
be damaging for the UK.
No doubt this will be painted as some 'wild conspiracy theory' to prove that anyone who disbelieves the McCann's story is crazy, into little green men and the illuminati!
Yes I think it's a totally barmy idea
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Yes I think it's a totally barmy idea
That's your prerogative but MI5 and MI6 do recruit members of the public. They also recruit members of the public that have been up to dodgy stuff to help them keep tabs on other dodgy people.
This is not really the topic of the original post anyway and my reply, which demonstrated the cremation theory was one of many that should have been investigated according to Amaral.
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In my opinion? Maybe someone who was there that night works for Mi5 and delving into their background would
be damaging for the UK.
No doubt this will be painted as some 'wild conspiracy theory' to prove that anyone who disbelieves the McCann's story is crazy, into little green men and the illuminati!
You could be onto something there. I said Amaral is losing it. Dementia can happen to anyone as they get older.
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That's your prerogative but MI5 and MI6 do recruit members of the public. They also recruit members of the public that have been up to dodgy stuff to help them keep tabs on other dodgy people.
This is not really the topic of the original post anyway and my reply, which demonstrated the cremation theory was one of many that should have been investigated according to Amaral.
Should have been investigated because of amaral on account that MI5 are, protecting the McCann's... How crazy....
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Gertrude is entitled to an opinion, so let's keep it polite, please.
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How many sceptics have learned Portuguese to a point of being able to accurately translate newspaper articles in the last eleven years? Have you?
No but I’m not claiming the translations are wrong at every turn and besides there are enough sceptics who are fluent in Portuguese for me not to bother. Can you name one supporter you can make that claim for ?
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In my opinion? Maybe someone who was there that night works for Mi5 and delving into their background would
be damaging for the UK.
No doubt this will be painted as some 'wild conspiracy theory' to prove that anyone who disbelieves the McCann's story is crazy, into little green men and the illuminati!
The PJ dont seem to be investigating it which shows waht they think of amaral and his ideas
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Gertrude is entitled to an opinion, so let's keep it polite, please.
I dont think accusing teh mccanns of sneaking into a church and hiding their daighters body in a coffin is very polite
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You could be onto something there. I said Amaral is losing it. Dementia can happen to anyone as they get older.
Why is it such a crazy theory and why would Amaral have dementia? He was there and observed what happened whilst we were not, he says special branch escorted the McCanns from the airport and we have a possible statement concerning child abuse that seems to be largely ignored by UK police. Credit card checks past 6 months denied by UK home office.
IMO only those who don't weigh up possibilities objectively resort to labelling people 'conspiracy theorists' or insane. MI5 do recruit members of the public for information which is not fantasy but factual. It is a possibility and not proven either way like many things in this case.
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Why is it such a crazy theory and why would Amaral have dementia? He was there and observed what happened whilst we were not, he says special branch escorted the McCanns from the airport and we have a possible statement concerning child abuse that seems to be largely ignored by UK police. Credit card checks past 6 months denied by UK home office.
IMO only those who don't weigh up possibilities objectively resort to labelling people 'conspiracy theorists' or insane. MI5 do recruit members of the public for information which is not fantasy but factual. It is a possibility and not proven either way like many things in this case.
Got to be labelled Gertrude,can't just be some one with an opinion,what,what.
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I dont think accusing teh mccanns of sneaking into a church and hiding their daighters body in a coffin is very polite
Should the police be polite in a criminal investigation?
What Amaral actually said is that it was a possibility that should be investigated and not that it was the McCanns that definitely did it. It could have been anyone, just as the death that was possibly scented by the dogs in 5a. All of these things warrant investigation and could result in finding out who was responsible.
IMO i find it odd that supporters of McCanns and the family themselves never want anything investigating by PJ that concerns a death, even though anyone could be responsible.
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Should the police be polite in a criminal investigation?
What Amaral actually said is that it was a possibility that should be investigated and not that it was the McCanns that definitely did it. It could have been anyone, just as the death that was possibly scented by the dogs in 5a. All of these things warrant investigation and could result in finding out who was responsible.
IMO i find it odd that supporters of McCanns and the family themselves never want anything investigating by PJ that concerns a death, even though anyone could be responsible.
Very good points,yet when OG can't find no evidence to conclude after throwing millions and upward of 30 officers at one stage at it ,its all right cause they know what they are doing and all avenues have to be examined.
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I dont think accusing teh mccanns of sneaking into a church and hiding their daighters body in a coffin is very polite
The notion of cremation wasn't a new one in my opinion since the original investigation had checked out the possibility that Madeleine had been disposed of in an animal crematorium http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HOOS_HENDRIK.htm which in my opinion was a valid line of inquiry.
Although I would imagine not in relation to Madeleine's parents or their friends involvement since that really opens a whole new scenario to explain exactly how.
The dog crematorium was a physical reality but in my opinion the phantom three and their accompanying bundle is a fantasy only a fevered brain could conjure up in a theory littered with anonymous observers from cooks to jurists to waiters and Irish girls having a fly puff.
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Why is it such a crazy theory and why would Amaral have dementia? He was there and observed what happened whilst we were not, he says special branch escorted the McCanns from the airport and we have a possible statement hinting at child abuse that seems to be largely ignored by UK police. Credit card checks past 6 months denied by UK home office.
IMO only those who don't weigh up possibilities objectively resort to labelling people 'conspiracy theorists' or insane. MI5 do recruit members of the public for information which is not fantasy but factual. It is a possibility and not proven either way like many things in this case.
What possible statement of Child Abuse? I need a Cite for that.
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Should the police be polite in a criminal investigation?
What Amaral actually said is that it was a possibility that should be investigated and not that it was the McCanns that definitely did it. It could have been anyone, just as the death that was possibly scented by the dogs in 5a. All of these things warrant investigation and could result in finding out who was responsible.
IMO i find it odd that supporters of McCanns and the family themselves never want anything investigating by PJ that concerns a death, even though anyone could be responsible.
Amaral is not a policeman.... What about due process... Has that been abandoned.. If amaral has concerns take them to the PJ... Plus he has no evidence to support this crazy suggestion
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What possible statement hinting at Child Abuse? I need a Cite for that.
You know the one , those Doctors on holiday with Paynes and the McCanns.
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You know the one , those Doctors on holiday with Paynes and the McCanns.
No we don't. You did not make the post. The poster will have to clarify what was said by providing a link as per request. So far this morning I believe there have been three such requests from moderators (including yours which I think was answered) and I have not as yet seen any cite provided certainly not by the poster for this one.
As far as the integrity of the threads is concerned it is a joke that members feel free to ignore legitimate requests from moderators.
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No we don't. You did not make the post. The poster will have to clarify what was said by providing a link as per request. So far this morning I believe there have been three such requests from moderators (including yours which I think was answered) and I have not as yet seen any cite provided certainly not by the poster for this one.
As far as the integrity of the threads is concerned it is a joke that members feel free to ignore legitimate requests from moderators.
I can't remember the name, something like Casper or whatever. I thought Eleanor must have forgotten too.
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I can't remember the name, something like Casper or whatever. I thought Eleanor must have forgotten too.
There are many such allegations therefore only the poster can provide a cite to the one referred to.
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I can't remember the name, something like Casper or whatever. I thought Eleanor must have forgotten too.
Is there any reason to provide this cite? I am sure there are none on here who don't know who's police statement was being discussed, and yes Rob their name sounds a bit like Casper.
If you require Brietta I will happily provide the cite but I am not sure how it is relevant with regards to this thread.
Edited what other such "allegations" are there? Perhaps you can provide a cite for them.
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What possible statement hinting at Child Abuse? I need a Cite for that.
The Gaspar statement, which as everybody here likely knows is in the PJ files. Dr Katherine Gaspar thought she might have overheard a conversation of a sexual nature involving children.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5775.0
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The Gaspar statement, which as everybody here likely knows is in the PJ files. Dr Katherine Gaspar thought she might have overheard a conversation of a sexual nature involving children.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5775.0
Are we even allowed to discuss that statement on the forum. I'd rather drop it and keep the thread from being deleted please. Gertrude Delete your claim and get back on topic please.
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Amaral is not a policeman.... What about due process... Has that been abandoned.. If amaral has concerns take them to the PJ... Plus he has no evidence to support this crazy suggestion
No, he was just the leading policeman and coordinator of the case. As the leading theory was that the child had died and the body was concealed, it is not unreasonable to say various methods of disposal should have been investigated. Amaral was quoted as saying, 'We had information three figures went into the church via a side door at night.''
'We had' as in the PJ, in the past tense had a witness statement.
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I can't remember the name, something like Casper or whatever. I thought Eleanor must have forgotten too.
I have checked it was only a possible statement not actual. How demanding do we get with that?
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Are we even allowed to discuss that statement on the forum. I'd rather drop it and keep the thread from being deleted please. Gertrude Delete your claim and get back on topic please.
I'm not sure how I'm expected to know that a bona fide witness statement is off limits yet older members and moderators here don't seem to be sure and are the ones asking me to cite it.
I didn't think I was off topic either when I am responding to what Davel asked.
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I'm not sure how I'm expected to know that a bona fide witness statement is off limits yet older members and moderators here don't seem to be sure and are the ones asking me to cite it.
I didn't think I was off topic either when I am responding to what Davel asked.
I think you could link to it but try not to interpret what the statement could imply.
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No, he was just the leading policeman and coordinator of the case. As the leading theory was that the child had died and the body was concealed, it is not unreasonable to say various methods of disposal should have been investigated. Amaral was quoted as saying, 'We had information three figures went into the church via a side door at night.''
'We had' as in the PJ, in the past tense had a witness statement.
amaral was not a policeman when he made this, statement... He, was, removed from the investigation fir misconduct... And has, a conviction for perjury
Cite for the leading theory ...cite for 3 figures... Where has this come from.... Quoting amaral is not a reliable source seeing as he tells the dogs, solved 200 cases... And the dogs, alerted ti cadaver odour
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amaral was not a policeman when he made this, statement... He, was, removed from the investigation fir misconduct... And has, a conviction for perjury
Cite for the leading theory ...cite for 3 figures... Where has this come from.... Quoting amaral is not a reliable source seeing as he tells the dogs, solved 200 cases... And the dogs, alerted ti cadaver odour
Overruled Davel. Gertrude claims Amaral said this in an interview. That is the claim and that has been cited in the OP.
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Overruled Davel. Gertrude claims Amaral said this in an interview. That is the claim and that has been cited in the OP.
Doesn't make it true... There is no real evidence to support the statement from a convicted perjuror
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I think you could link to it but try not to interpret what the statement could imply.
Thanks for explaining. I believe what I said about that statement is factual and not interpretation on my part. Mrs Gaspar made a statement about comments she heard and she interpreted the comments in a certain way, which would remain a matter for the investigation to determine to be true or not.
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Overruled Davel. Gertrude claims Amaral said this in an interview. That is the claim and that has been cited in the OP.
She has also claimed hiding the body was the leading theory... Cite required as already requested
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No, he was just the leading policeman and coordinator of the case. As the leading theory was that the child had died and the body was concealed, it is not unreasonable to say various methods of disposal should have been investigated. Amaral was quoted as saying, 'We had information three figures went into the church via a side door at night.''
'We had' as in the PJ, in the past tense had a witness statement.
Cite fir... This was the leading theory... It wasnt
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Doesn't make it true... There is no real evidence to support the statement from a convicted perjuror
Maybe you could discuss the actual theory and not the personality?
I'm sure you will be aware Amaral was convicted of falsifying a statement as he chose to take the word of his men over that of a convicted child murderer? It was later proven he was correct and not lying and Cipriano got extra time on her prison sentence for lying about Amaral's men.
"The Court of Faro condemned today Leonor Cipriano to seven more months in jail for making false accusations in the process which incriminated five Judiciary Police officers of the crimes of aggression and torture."
( expresso 2005)
With that in mind, you have nothing to prove Amaral was lying about 3 people seen near the church in Praia at night.
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Cite fir... This was the leading theory... It wasnt
And you accused me of badgering you for a cite. At least I didn't ask 3 times in 1 hour Davel.
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Cite fir... This was the leading theory... It wasnt
It was the leading theory when the McCanns were made arguido and questioned.
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Thanks for explaining. I believe what I said about that statement is factual and not interpretation on my part. Mrs Gaspar made a statement about comments she heard and she interpreted the comments in a certain way, which would remain a matter for the investigation to determine to be true or not.
This is an example of a Statement made to Police not being the subject of Libel. But repeated and discussed here could be Libellous, depending on interpretation.
Neither Gerald McCann not David Payne were ever so much as arrested let alone charged.
Best dropped now, I think. And best not mentioned again.
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This is an example of a Statement made to Police not being the subject of Libel. But repeated and discussed here could be Libellous, depending on interpretation.
Neither Gerald McCann not David Payne were ever so much as arrested let alone charged.
Best dropped now, I think. And best not mentioned again.
Is that really good enough when the statement suggests that children could be in danger ?
Supporters agree that BL should have been charged even though she wasn’t. Couldn’t this statement be similar?
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This is an example of a Statement made to Police not being the subject of Libel. But repeated and discussed here could be Libellous, depending on interpretation.
Neither Gerald McCann not David Payne were ever so much as arrested let alone charged.
Best dropped now, I think. And best not mentioned again.
You could make the same argument concerning Amaral and the McCanns,trouble is there be nothing for some to get their teeth into if that were to happen.imo of course.
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You could make the same argument concerning Amaral and the McCanns,trouble is there be nothing for some to get their teeth into if that were to happen.imo of course.
dont quite see what you are saying...amaral discussed the case publicly and made accusations publicly..thats where the libel comes in
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dont quite see what you are saying...amaral discussed the case publicly and made accusations publicly..thats where the libel comes in
Libel of whom by whom?
McCann v Amaral et al. is long since done and dusted with the verdict having gone in favour of Amaral et al.
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Libel of whom by whom?
McCann v Amaral et al. is long since done and dusted with the verdict having gone in favour of Amaral et al.
By amaral... Amaral libelled the McCann's but the SC decided his freedom of speech was more important...that's how I understand it
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Is there any reason to provide this cite? I am sure there are none on here who don't know who's police statement was being discussed, and yes Rob their name sounds a bit like Casper.
If you require Brietta I will happily provide the cite but I am not sure how it is relevant with regards to this thread.
Edited what other such "allegations" are there? Perhaps you can provide a cite for them.
In my opinion if you apparently know of one it is highly likely you know of more if not all.
However here is a cite enumerating that there are apparently at least 5,252 at present already known to the Portuguese authorities.
Snip
Portugal’s ‘pedophile list’ already involves 5,252 names, reports CM.
http://portugalresident.com/pedophile-abducts-child-from-seixal-playground
Not forgetting what I believe is a very small part of the available information recorded in the files regarding the investigation and verification or elimination process which took place regarding named individuals ... which in my opinion makes risible any insinuation that accusations were not investigated with a fine tooth comb.
In my opinion the internet social media implication that the Policia Judiciaria were remiss in their investigation of any of these named individuals is an absolute nonsense. In my opinion it is one aspect of the investigation they took very seriously indeed.
Snip
From SOCa
To: John Hughes, Leicestershire Police
Operation Task
Germany
Information has been received as the enquiry from UK Crimestoppers. It gives detailed information about a suspect in the Madeleine McCann case.
The suspect is named as a German national with the surname of M******. He has an alias of H*************. He is described as a white male 55-60 year old, 5'8" tall, muscular build, with short grey wavy hair.
He is apparently actively involved in people trafficking and paedophilia and may be known to the German authorities. He may have an associate by the name of F********.
We request the German databases be checked for any information relating to this man.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SEX_OFFENDERS_INFORMATION.htm
That gives you two cites to be going on with fulfilling your request; if you require more than that may I respectfully request you try Google or another search engine of your choice bearing in mind the caveat to have a care where your information comes from because there are many fora which exist in my opinion only to disseminate lies, myth and disinformation about any subject under the sun.
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Are we even allowed to discuss that statement on the forum. I'd rather drop it and keep the thread from being deleted please. Gertrude Delete your claim and get back on topic please.
There is a private thread on this subject to which posters can access if they desire to discuss this subject ... might be a sound idea to take it there.
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Perhaps you could request Brietta etc to stop calling for a cite that they know will be deleted Rob.
Which reminds me. I believe there is an outstanding request from me for you to provide a cite on another topic.
Have you done that yet?
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Which reminds me. I believe there is an outstanding request from me for you to provide a cite on another topic.
Have you done that yet?
Could you remind me of the cite request please?
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No, he was just the leading policeman and coordinator of the case. As the leading theory was that the child had died and the body was concealed, it is not unreasonable to say various methods of disposal should have been investigated. Amaral was quoted as saying, 'We had information three figures went into the church via a side door at night.''
'We had' as in the PJ, in the past tense had a witness statement.
Where is this information in the files, and why was the question not put to the McCanns when they were made arguidos?
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There is a private thread on this subject to which posters can access if they desire to discuss this subject ... might be a sound idea to take it there.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5775.0
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It was the leading theory when the McCanns were made arguido and questioned.
Who said it was the leading theory... There were three theories.. So cite, still required
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Who said it was the leading theory... There were three theories.. So cite, still required
Maybe I could have a cite from you about these three theories and which were leading, or not?
As everyone here is likely aware, the stranger abduction theory was not the leading theory with Amaral and the PJ or they wouldn't have questioned the McCanns on hiding a body. This was confirmed in a statement from The interim report of Tavares de Almeida of the Portuguese Police, 10 September 2007;
From everything that we have discovered, our files result in the following conclusions:
A. the minor Madeleine McCann died in Apartment 5A at the Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz, on the night of 3 May 2007
B. a simulation - a staged hoax - of an abduction took place
C. in order to render the child’s death impossible before 10.00pm, a situation of checking of the McCann couple’s children while they slept was concocted
D. Dr Gerald McCann and Dr Kate McCann are involved in the concealment of the corpse of their daughter, Madeleine McCann
E. at this moment, there seems to be no strong indications that the child’s death was other than the result of a tragic accident, yet;
F. from what has been established up to now, everything indicates that the McCann couple, in self-defence, did not want to deliver up Madeleine’s corpse immediately and voluntarily, and there is a strong possibility therefore that it was moved from the initial place where she died. This situation may raise questions concerning the circumstances in which the death of the child took place.
G. Therefore, we suggest that the case files are sent to the Republic’s Prosecutor, in the Lagos legal district, for:
1) possible new questioning of the arguidos Dr Gerald and Dr Kate McCann, and
2) an evaluation of the measure of restraint to be applied in this case.
During the house search at the McCann couple’s residence, a diary style manuscript was found, already photocopied, possibly authored by Dr Kate McCann; admitting that it may contain information that may help to reach the material truth of facts.
We therefore propose that the photocopies of the said document are presented to the illustrious judge for the purpose of its apprehension (if legal), its translation and eventual collection of information to be included in the files, as necessary for the investigation.
At this date, I submit the case files for your appreciation, for you to determine whatever you may see as convenient.
10 September 2007
Also said at the libel trial ""Gonçalo Amaral does not usurp the investigation conclusions, because they come from investigation", said Tavares de Almeida.
In his turn, the PJ inspector Ricardo Paiva, the liaison police officer to the English police, and later on to the McCann family, said "The thesis of the book of Gonçalo Amaral is the investigation" and ensured that there was "no intention" of the book author "to harm the couple"
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Maybe I could have a cite from you about these three theories and which were leading, or not?
As everyone here is likely aware, the stranger abduction theory was not the leading theory with Amaral and the PJ or they wouldn't have questioned the McCanns on hiding a body. This was confirmed in a statement from The interim report of Tavares de Almeida of the Portuguese Police, 10 September 2007;
Also said at the libel trial ""Gonçalo Amaral does not usurp the investigation conclusions, because they come from investigation", said Tavares de Almeida.
In his turn, the PJ inspector Ricardo Paiva, the liaison police officer to the English police, and later on to the McCann family, said "The thesis of the book of Gonçalo Amaral is the investigation" and ensured that there was "no intention" of the book author "to harm the couple"
Well he would say that wouldn’t he. What was the intention of the book then?
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Well he would say that wouldn’t he. What was the intention of the book then?
Something to do with his "honour", I believe.
It's a pity he couldn't have promoted his "honour" without maligning Madeleine's parents and friends.
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Well he would say that wouldn’t he. What was the intention of the book then?
I'm not with you, who is 'he' ? The quotes I included are from Tavares de Almeida and Ricardo Paiva.
I was answering Davel's request for a cite about which was the leading theory in the original investigation, I think the intention of the book is off topic somewhat.
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Maybe I could have a cite from you about these three theories and which were leading, or not?
As everyone here is likely aware, the stranger abduction theory was not the leading theory with Amaral and the PJ or they wouldn't have questioned the McCanns on hiding a body. This was confirmed in a statement from The interim report of Tavares de Almeida of the Portuguese Police, 10 September 2007;
Also said at the libel trial ""Gonçalo Amaral does not usurp the investigation conclusions, because they come from investigation", said Tavares de Almeida.
In his turn, the PJ inspector Ricardo Paiva, the liaison police officer to the English police, and later on to the McCann family, said "The thesis of the book of Gonçalo Amaral is the investigation" and ensured that there was "no intention" of the book author "to harm the couple"
Could you provide a link as to where your cite comes from
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Could you provide a link as to where your cite comes from
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm
By the time amaral wrote his book there was the final report which was quite different... I seem to remember amaral saying he hadn't even read it..
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I'm not with you, who is 'he' ? The quotes I included are from Tavares de Almeida and Ricardo Paiva.
I was answering Davel's request for a cite about which was the leading theory in the original investigation, I think the intention of the book is off topic somewhat.
Paiva would say that, I thought my question would have made it clear who I was referring to.
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By the time amaral wrote his book there was the final report which was quite different... I seem to remember amaral saying he hadn't even read it..
I don't see how it is relevant whether Amaral read the final report or not, the interview which started this thread concerns Amaral's theory from when he was working on the case, as does his book.
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He should have read the final report because it said all the evidence used to make the McCann's arguidos was not confirmed... Ie... Almeidas report was based on evidence that eventually was found to have no basis in truth
I think you should qualify that with an IMO.
I feel you are moving the goal posts, you repeatedly asked me for cites and to clarify them, which I did to show what the investigation's leading theory was when Amaral was working on it.
The interview which is the subject of this thread is 'Return of the Inspector to the crime scene - Goncalo Amaral Interview. The interview is about Amaral's perspective, not the later report and if he should have read it.
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I think you should qualify that with an IMO.
I feel you are moving the goal posts, you repeatedly asked me for cites and to clarify them, which I did to show what the investigation's leading theory was when Amaral was working on it.
The interview which is the subject of this thread is 'Return of the Inspector to the crime scene - Goncalo Amaral Interview. The interview is about Amaral's perspective, not the later report and if he should have read it.
When amaral wrote his book.... Tavares report was not the main theory... Things had moved on
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The archiving report confirms none of the evidence was confirmed... There was no confirmed cadaver odour in the apartment.. Therefore no proof of, any body in the, aoartment
There is no evidence of stranger abduction either.
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There is no evidence of stranger abduction either.
Yes there is
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Why would people question his mental health? He lead an investigation where he concluded a child had probably died and then had to consider scenarios in which a body was concealed and disposed of.
The December date is obviously not a direct quote from Amaral or it wouldn't be in brackets with a '?'. It's not a surprise that detractors of Amaral would make no effort at all to try and clarify what he actually said about concealment of a body but accept a glaringly obvious error because it makes Amaral look bad. In other interviews it seems apparent that the cremation in Church theory came from information gathered from others on the case and was in the period in which the McCanns had a key to the church and were visitors of it, ie. in the month after their daughter went missing.
Transcript from CMTV interview, 23/04/16
Liverpool Echo, 2014
So Amaral says it is just one possibility that would have to be investigated in an investigation of this kind and that it happened up to a month after the disappearance. Note the fact that 'a source close to the couple' felt the need to counter this theory even though 'no sane person would believe' it.
Lets look at this logically. For the McCann's to produce Madeleine's body up to a month after her disappearance, where would they have kept her?
Can you imgine what sort of state the body was in? To hide her body under a deceased woman in a coffin, do you not think the body would be emitting a horrible smell?
Those people were probably family members visiting the deceased to say goodbye.
Amaral makes that disgusting implication oh yes he says 'it may not have been the McCann's' then why say anything about it?
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Yes there is
There is no forensic evidence a stranger got into 5a and removed Madeleine.
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By amaral... Amaral libelled the McCann's but the SC decided his freedom of speech was more important...that's how I understand it
Oh well here we go again.
You have not been paying attention to the original ruling by the judge in the court of first instance.
She did not award damages for libel.
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Yes there is
Of course there is Davel, just that some of us fail to see it and you are unable to show what evidence of abduction there is or at least apart from Madeleine is missing which can have several causes IMO.
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Of course there is Davel, just that some of us fail to see it and you are unable to show what evidence of abduction there is or at least apart from Madeleine is missing which can have several causes IMO.
i
I wil explain again
Maddie is missing... 3 possibilities
Parental involvement... Seems to have been ruled out
Woke and wandered... Highly unlikely according to the, archiving report..
That leaves abduction.... As highly likely... By indirect evidence
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i
I wil explain again
Maddie is missing... 3 possibilities
Parental involvement... Seems to have been ruled out
Woke and wandered... Highly unlikely according to the, archiving report..
That leaves abduction.... As highly likely... By indirect evidence
So no evidence then, just some periodic statements for public consumption by some law enforcement agencies
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So no evidence then, just some periodic statements for public consumption by some law enforcement agencies
Try this... Is there any evidence Maddie is dead
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So no evidence then, just some periodic statements for public consumption by some law enforcement agencies
Statements by police are evidence
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Try this... Is there any evidence Maddie is dead
Rowley coudn't or wouldn't confirm.
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Rowley coudn't or wouldn't confirm.
That's not what I asked
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That's not what I asked
Still stands,its where the investigation is at.
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Still stands,its where the investigation is at.
I asked is there any evidence Maddie is dead... Are you prepared to answer such a simple question
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Try this... Is there any evidence Maddie is dead
Try this.... no.
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Try this.... no.
Then you don't understand what evidence is..... The evidence is overwhelming with only a remote possibility she is still alive
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i
I wil explain again
Maddie is missing... 3 possibilities
Parental involvement... Seems to have been ruled out
Woke and wandered... Highly unlikely according to the, archiving report..
That leaves abduction.... As highly likely... By indirect evidence
No theory has been ruled out according to Mark Rowley last year.
(https://image.ibb.co/bHX8h9/rowley2.png)
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No theory has been ruled out according to Mark Rowley last year.
(https://image.ibb.co/bHX8h9/rowley2.png)
Rowley was quite clear the parents were not being investigated... Sutton confirmed it
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"All the hypothesis that you and I could come up with, they all have to remain open........."
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Then you don't understand what evidence is..... The evidence is overwhelming with only a remote possibility she is still alive
You probably won’t tell us what that is either.
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"All the hypothesis that you and I could come up with, they all have to remain open........."
He said the parents were ruled out by the first investigation... As they were... Suttin confirmed the parents are not being investigated
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You probably won’t tell us what that is either.
I will.. But first do you dispute the evidence is overwhelming
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He said the parents were ruled out by the first investigation... As they were... Suttin confirmed the parents are not being investigated
They were not ruled out in Portugal. All means all no exceptions.
"It should not be said that the appellants were cleared via the ruling announcing the archiving of the criminal case. In truth, that ruling was not made in virtue of Portugal's Public Prosecution Service having acquired the conviction that the appellants hadn't committed a crime.
"The archiving of the case was determined by the fact that public prosecutors hadn't managed to obtain sufficient evidence of the practice of crimes by the appellants.
"There is therefore a significant, and not merely a semantic difference, between the legally admissible foundations of the archive ruling. It doesn't therefore seem acceptable that the ruling, based on the insufficiency of evidence, should be equated to proof of innocence."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/09/madeleine-mccanns-parents-have-not-ruled-innocent-judge-says/
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I will.. But first do you dispute the evidence is overwhelming
There is a high probabilty she is no longer alive but no evidence of death that can be conclusively tied to her.
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He said the parents were ruled out by the first investigation... As they were... Suttin confirmed the parents are not being investigated
Sutton is like any one on this site, a nobody in terms of knowing what is happening.
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They were not ruled out in Portugal. All means all no exceptions.
"It should not be said that the appellants were cleared via the ruling announcing the archiving of the criminal case. In truth, that ruling was not made in virtue of Portugal's Public Prosecution Service having acquired the conviction that the appellants hadn't committed a crime.
"The archiving of the case was determined by the fact that public prosecutors hadn't managed to obtain sufficient evidence of the practice of crimes by the appellants.
"There is therefore a significant, and not merely a semantic difference, between the legally admissible foundations of the archive ruling. It doesn't therefore seem acceptable that the ruling, based on the insufficiency of evidence, should be equated to proof of innocence."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/09/madeleine-mccanns-parents-have-not-ruled-innocent-judge-says/
The, archiving report said there was no evidence against them... That's quite clear..... There is no legal procedure to be ruked innocent... A not guilty verdict does not prove innocence
The SC jusdgement will be heavily criticised by the ECHR... Imo
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Sutton is like any one on this site, a nobody in terms of knowing what is happening.
Wrong.. He received a phonecall from a senior officer... That's more than anyone on this forum
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Wrong.. He received a phonecall from a senior officer... That's more than anyone on this forum
So you believe him?
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So you believe him?
I absolutely believe he received the phonecall... But without knowing the exact wording we don't understand it's full significance... It tells us the McCann's were not being investigated... It doesn't tell us why
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The, archiving report said there was no evidence against them... That's quite clear..... There is no legal procedure to be ruked innocent... A not guilty verdict does not prove innocence
The SC jusdgement will be heavily criticised by the ECHR... Imo
Where does it say no evidence?
What happened during the time lapse between 5.30 p.m. (the time at which MADELEINE was seen for the last time by a person that differs from her parents or siblings) and the time at which the disappearance is reported by KATE HEALY (at around 10 p.m.).
In conclusion, it results from everything that has been done, despite the efforts that were made and all investigation lines being explored, that it is not possible to obtain a solid and objective conclusion about what really happened that night, and about the present location of the missing minor.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
These dogs, which had already been used on multiple occasions by the Scotland Yard and by the FBI with positive results, are evidence collection means and do not serve as evidence; any residue, even if invisible to the naked eye, which is collected using this type of dogs, has to be subject to forensics testing in a credentialed laboratory.
Martin Grime, the dogs' instructor himself [20], mentions in his report: "Whereas there may be no retrievable evidence for court purposes this may well assist intelligence gathering in Major Crime investigations"; or scientist Dr John Lowe [21] who refers that the FSS has no scientific support about the use of the dogs as a fundament for the collection of biological residues and that normally take the handler's word for certification, that asserts that the dogs are more sensitive than any chemical technique or other techniques that are normally used by crime scene sector experts.
We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain unclarified.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
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Where does it say no evidence?
What happened during the time lapse between 5.30 p.m. (the time at which MADELEINE was seen for the last time by a person that differs from her parents or siblings) and the time at which the disappearance is reported by KATE HEALY (at around 10 p.m.).
In conclusion, it results from everything that has been done, despite the efforts that were made and all investigation lines being explored, that it is not possible to obtain a solid and objective conclusion about what really happened that night, and about the present location of the missing minor.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
These dogs, which had already been used on multiple occasions by the Scotland Yard and by the FBI with positive results, are evidence collection means and do not serve as evidence; any residue, even if invisible to the naked eye, which is collected using this type of dogs, has to be subject to forensics testing in a credentialed laboratory.
Martin Grime, the dogs' instructor himself [20], mentions in his report: "Whereas there may be no retrievable evidence for court purposes this may well assist intelligence gathering in Major Crime investigations"; or scientist Dr John Lowe [21] who refers that the FSS has no scientific support about the use of the dogs as a fundament for the collection of biological residues and that normally take the handler's word for certification, that asserts that the dogs are more sensitive than any chemical technique or other techniques that are normally used by crime scene sector experts.
We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain unclarified.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
PDC said no evidence... The McCann's don't have to prove anything... The prosecution do..
These dogs, which had already been used on multiple occasions by the Scotland Yard and by the FBI with positive results, are evidence collection means and do not serve as evidence
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Just remember that Portugal have declared they have never been cleared in this live ongoing case.
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Just remember that Portugal have declared they have never been cleared in this live ongoing case.
as they havent been charged with anything as there is no evidence...that is hardly surprising
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Off topic but why has Robert Murat been questioned by Operation Grange but the McCanns have not. There was no evidence against Robert Murat as far as I am aware.
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Off topic but why has Robert Murat been questioned by Operation Grange but the McCanns have not. There was no evidence against Robert Murat as far as I am aware.
you would need to ask grange why...we dont know what evidence grange has against murat
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you would need to ask grange why...we dont know what evidence grange has against murat
Why do they need evidence against him?
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Why do they need evidence against him?
read my post again...I never said they did
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Off topic but why has Robert Murat been questioned by Operation Grange but the McCanns have not. There was no evidence against Robert Murat as far as I am aware.
I would be very surprised if the mccanns have not been questioned by grange
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Why do they need evidence against him?
read my post again...I never said they did
you would need to ask grange why...we dont know what evidence grange has against murat
Suggestive of thinking they have.
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Suggestive of thinking they have.
I think that was the intention.
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And without evidence Slartibartfast
Robert Murat was questioned and even kept waiting for 7 hours allegedly
Robert Murat sped into Faro police station this morning, driven to the rear entrance in a silver car as camera crews and photographers tried to take his picture.
It is the second time the British expat has come to be questioned as a witness in three days.
On Wednesday, Mr Murat spent around seven hours inside the station with other witnesses, including his wife. But a source close to the investigation has told us that officers didn't have time to speak to him.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30443689
However the police haven't questioned any of the McCanns or tapas friends according to the Times.
This link is the Sun quoting the times
The £12million six and a half year police probe into Maddie’s feared kidnap, which is hunting “a person of significance”, has not once asked Kate and Gerry, their friends and other key witnesses, for their account on the night the youngster vanished.
The Met detectives have been relying on Portuguese transcripts of key interviews with British witnesses, and have never conducted their own, The Times has learned.
Neither Gerry and Kate McCann nor their seven friends they dined with on the night Maddie vanished have been formerly interviewed.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4588686/madeleine-mccann-parents-kate-gerry-tapas-seven-never-quizzed-british-police/
Both quotes are snipped from longer articles
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And without evidence Slartibartfast
Robert Murat was questioned and even kept waiting for 7 hours allegedly
Robert Murat sped into Faro police station this morning, driven to the rear entrance in a silver car as camera crews and photographers tried to take his picture.
It is the second time the British expat has come to be questioned as a witness in three days.
On Wednesday, Mr Murat spent around seven hours inside the station with other witnesses, including his wife. But a source close to the investigation has told us that officers didn't have time to speak to him.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30443689
However the police haven't questioned any of the McCanns or tapas friends according to the Times.
This link is the Sun quoting the times
The £12million six and a half year police probe into Maddie’s feared kidnap, which is hunting “a person of significance”, has not once asked Kate and Gerry, their friends and other key witnesses, for their account on the night the youngster vanished.
The Met detectives have been relying on Portuguese transcripts of key interviews with British witnesses, and have never conducted their own, The Times has learned.
Neither Gerry and Kate McCann nor their seven friends they dined with on the night Maddie vanished have been formerly interviewed.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4588686/madeleine-mccann-parents-kate-gerry-tapas-seven-never-quizzed-british-police/
Both quotes are snipped from longer articles
Thus all seems to be based on Sutton s views.. and seems confused by the sun... It days they haven't been interviews and then refers ti them not being formally interviewed... I'm sure they would have been asked for their account but not interviewed under caution... Sutton does support my view that there is, massive room for error in the original translated statenents
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Thus all seems to be based on Sutton s views.. and seems confused by the sun... It days they haven't been interviews and then refers ti them not being formally interviewed... I'm sure they would have been asked for their account but not interviewed under caution... Sutton does support my view that there is, massive room for error in the original translated statenents
Yet Operation Grange were content to rely upon the original investigation. OG clearly had no such qualms.
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Off topic but why has Robert Murat been questioned by Operation Grange but the McCanns have not. There was no evidence against Robert Murat as far as I am aware.
If Murat was formally questioned whiy are there no transcripts of those interviews in the files?
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Yet Operation Grange were content to rely upon the original investigation. OG clearly had no such qualms.
My understanding is that Grange, was happy that the McCann's involvement had been satisfactorily dealt with by the Portuguese... However I'm sure as Sutton said they would realise the statements, were not totally accurate and details, could be wrong..... And that's, why they would have interviewed, the McCann's, again.. Imo
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If Murat was formally questioned whiy are there no transcripts of those interviews in the files?
I am talking about the current investigation Angelo222 not the shelved one. My link earlier this thread gives the date at around December 2014.
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Off topic but why has Robert Murat been questioned by Operation Grange but the McCanns have not. There was no evidence against Robert Murat as far as I am aware.
Cite for the McCann's have not been questioned by grange... I would think that they have... But not under cautuon
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Cite for the McCann's have not been questioned by grange... I would think that they have... But not under cautuon
Look at my reply #211 on this thread Davel.
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Cite for the McCann's have not been questioned by grange... I would think that they have... But not under cautuon
Yes. I think we need a Cite for that.
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Why don't you look at my post #211 as well Eleanor.
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Look at my reply #211 on this thread Davel.
You are, quoting an article from the sun who are reporting what Sutton said... Sutton days the McCann's were not to be interviewed under caution... Not that they were not interviewed.....
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Why don't you look at my post #211 as well Eleanor.
The Sun quoting The Times? But I'm not making a colossal fuss about it. We can believe that, or not, as we choose.
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Why don't you look at my post #211 as well Eleanor.
I think we both already have
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You are, quoting an article from the sun who are reporting what Sutton said... Sutton days the McCann's were not to be interviewed under caution... Not that they were not interviewed.....
The cite says formally interviewed.
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You are, quoting an article from the sun who are reporting what Sutton said... Sutton days the McCann's were not to be interviewed under caution... Not that they were not interviewed.....
No Davel it is quite clear.
THE PARENTS of Madeleine McCann and their “Tapas Seven” holiday pals have never been quizzed as witnesses by Scotland Yard into her disappearance.
The £12million six and a half year police probe into Maddie’s feared kidnap, which is hunting “a person of significance”, has not once asked Kate and Gerry, their friends and other key witnesses, for their account on the night the youngster vanished.
They have not been interviewed as witness or under caution from what I can glean in this article. This story started life in the Times and I imagine they would be careful what they say is correct.
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My understanding is that Grange, was happy that the McCann's involvement had been satisfactorily dealt with by the Portuguese... However I'm sure as Sutton said they would realise the statements, were not totally accurate and details, could be wrong..... And that's, why they would have interviewed, the McCann's, again.. Imo
Plenty of opinion with nowt much to back it up.
Doyou believe that OG realised there were inaccuracies in the translations? Either OG dropped off or in their considered opinion any inaccuracies were inconsequential.
OG would have interviewed the McCanns? but you don't know for sure. On what basis would OG interview the McCanns? It is a Portuguese case. OG are just bagmen in that context.
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The cite says formally interviewed.
It does... What does that mean to you.... How accurate is the article... What we do know is Sutton said no interview under caution... I would say that is what's meant by formally
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Plenty of opinion with nowt much to back it up.
Doyou believe that OG realised there were inaccuracies in the translations? Either OG dropped off or in their considered opinion any inaccuracies were inconsequential.
OG would have interviewed the McCanns? but you don't know for sure. On what basis would OG interview the McCanns? It is a Portuguese case. OG are just bagmen in that context.
OG have interviewed several witnesses so your basic premise is incorrect
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OG have interviewed several witnesses so your basic premise is incorrect
Where did OG interview these witnesses?
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Where did OG interview these witnesses?
You know where
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It does... What doed that mean to you.... How accurate is the article... What we do know is Sutton said no interview under caution... I would say that is what's meant by formally
Mine doesn't Davel. Mine is just as valid as any other cite and it originated in the Times. If it was incorrect the Sun would remove that section from the article.
Why would it matter to you that if the McCanns and their tapas friends weren't interviewed by Operation Grange?
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Mine doesn't Davel. Mine is just as valid as any other cite and it originated in the Times. If it was incorrect the Sun would remove that section from the article.
Why would it matter to you that if the McCanns and their tapas friends weren't interviewed by Operation Grange?
you need to quote the times article then......it seems to me this story has come from suttons statement ...why do you ask if it matters to me...why should it..it is my opinion taht grange wold ahve interviwed the mccanns...you say they havent...there is no proof to support your statement apart from an ambiguous Sun article
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Okay, I think that's enough of this argument.
Can we get back On Topic, please.
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You know where
If I knew I would not be asking you.
So where did these alleged interviews take place?
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If I knew I would not be asking you.
So where did these alleged interviews take place?
if you dont know its a waste of time discussing the topic with you...weve been told we are off topic
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if you dont know its a waste of time discussing the topic with you...weve been told we are off topic
Please provide a cite for post 229
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Please provide a cite for post 229
229 is not my post... How do I provide a cite for someone elses post
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229 is not my post... How do I provide a cite for someone elses post
Do not be deliberately obtuse. Provide the information requested in 229.
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Do not be deliberately obtuse. Provide the information requested in 229.
It is not a forum rule to have to answer questions
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Off topic but why has Robert Murat been questioned by Operation Grange but the McCanns have not. There was no evidence against Robert Murat as far as I am aware.
When was, Murat questioned by Grange
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It is not a forum rule to have to answer questions
Your idea of sensible good mannered debate was shortlived.
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229 is not my post... How do I provide a cite for someone elses post
We are suppose to be quoting the URL of the post not its number, for the number changes if the moderators delete a post prior to it.
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We are suppose to be quoting the URL of the post not its number, for the number changes if the moderators delete a post prior to it.
It was, slarti who referred to it, as post 229..I simply answered the post
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It was, slarti who referred to it, as post 229..I simply answered the post
I know John was wanting us to adopt that convention of pasting the URL of the post rather than the post number.
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Would it be acceptable for a heart surgeon to have a glass or two of wine with his lunch... If not why not..
It seems the met have a zero tolerance for very good reasons... I'm fairly sure it's been shown one glass of wine can impair judgement
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/amp/321255
Bump
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Bump
Bit like when you are looking after kids...
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Bit like when you are looking after kids...
Are you saying no one should drink alcohol when looking after children.... That's ridiculous
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Are you saying no one should drink alcohol when looking after children.... That's ridiculous
Why?
You have already acknowledged that even low levels of alcohol consumption impair judgement.
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We are suppose to be quoting the URL of the post not its number, for the number changes if the moderators delete a post prior to it.
I dont even know what an URL is
... and as for posting it .... I don't have a cat in hells chance *%^^&
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I dont even know what an URL is
... and as for posting it .... I don't have a cat in hells chance *%^^&
Does the word link have any meaning? URL is the address of a World Wide Web page. Second line down on the computer screen.
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Does the word link have any meaning? URL is the address of a World Wide Web page. Second line down on the computer screen.
Thanks for trying Rob, but as soon as anything to do with computers comes up, my mind does somersaults. 8(8-)).
It actually switches off. Soz.
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Thanks for trying Rob, but as soon as anything to do with computers comes up, my mind does somersaults. 8(8-)).
It actually switches off. Soz.
Do you use a mouse? Do you use the right click button?
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Are you saying no one should drink alcohol when looking after children.... That's ridiculous
I can never understand why people drink...........
before they go out for a drink..........
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I can never understand why people drink...........
before they go out for a drink..........
I think theres a lot you don't understand ...perfectly normal.. But to you... Suspicious
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I can never understand why people drink...........
before they go out for a drink..........
What do you find puzzling about it?
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I think theres a lot you don't understand ...perfectly normal.. But to you... Suspicious
Same goes for you..........
As for it being perfectly normal...........
don't they call it pre gaming.........
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Same goes for you..........
As for it being perfectly normal...........
don't they call it pre gaming.........
Who calls it pregaming.... Never heard of it
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Who calls it pregaming.... Never heard of it
We call it "preloading".
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Who calls it pregaming.... Never heard of it
Seems it lessens inhibitions......as well........
Pregaming. ... Pregaming (also pre-drinking or pre-loading) is the process of getting drunk prior to going out socializing, typically done by college students and young adults in the United States and Europe, in a manner as cost-efficient as possible, with hard liquor and cheap beer consumed while in small groups.
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Seems it lessens inhibitions......as well........
Pregaming. ... Pregaming (also pre-drinking or pre-loading) is the process of getting drunk prior to going out socializing, typically done by college students and young adults in the United States and Europe, in a manner as cost-efficient as possible, with hard liquor and cheap beer consumed while in small groups.
So you are accusing the McCann's of getting drunk before they went out.... Is that allowed on this neutral forum
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So you are accusing the McCann's of getting drunk before they went out.... Is that allowed on this neutral forum
I Would think it is how you cant take your drink.......
or how often you drink..........
Such as me for instance.....if i had a few glasses of wine before i went out....
I wouldn't be going......
Whereas some i know ....can do that...but they are used to drinking......
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I Would think it is how you cant take your drink.......
or how often you drink..........
Such as me for instance.....if i had a few glasses of wine before i went out....
I wouldn't be going......
Whereas some i know ....can do that...but they are used to drinking......
Fir balance amaral was still out drinking at midnight after work when he got the message Re Maddie.... Drinking most lunchtimes as, well it seems... How fit would he be for work
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Fir balance amaral was still out drinking at midnight after work when he got the message Re Maddie.... Drinking most lunchtimes as, well it seems... How fit would he be for work
Not a lot. And on most days, allegedly.
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Fir balance amaral was still out drinking at midnight after work when he got the message Re Maddie.... Drinking most lunchtimes as, well it seems... How fit would he be for work
Well Goncalo wasn't a one man band was he ......he was part of a team.
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Well Goncalo wasn't a one man band was he ......he was part of a team.
Amaral was reportedly The Lead Detective.
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Amaral was reportedly The Lead Detective.
MY point was he wasn't working on his own...
he would have had someone in charge of him.....
Anyway we will never know............drinking or not if he would have got....
to the truth...if he had stayed
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MY point was he wasn't working on his own...
he would have had someone in charge of him.....
Anyway we will never know............drinking or not if he would have got....
to the truth...if he had stayed
Based on what he has, said... His understanding of the evidence I think we can conclude he wouldn't... What is, stoppoing the present PJ investigating following his line
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Based on what he has, said... His understanding of the evidence I think we can conclude he wouldn't... What is, stoppoing the present PJ investigating following his line
Ah ha...how do you know they are not ...following his line....
I think you will find it will all boil down to ..kmcc diary and book...
wrote by her own hand.......
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Ah ha...how do you know they are not ...following his line....
I think you will find it will all boil down to ..kmcc diary and book...
wrote by her own hand.......
so no evidence against them then
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Fir balance amaral was still out drinking at midnight after work when he got the message Re Maddie.... Drinking most lunchtimes as, well it seems... How fit would he be for work
Is it balanced? You have no idea how much he drank, could have been half a pint each lunch time for all we know and maybe he started at 11.30 at night and stopped at 12.00?
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Is it balanced? You have no idea how much he drank, could have been half a pint each lunch time for all we know and maybe he started at 11.30 at night and stopped at 12.00?
Exactly.......small beer and bread.....
Unless Goncalo was breathalyzed how can anyone prove he was drunk........
Its what they do............
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Ah ha...how do you know they are not ...following his line....
I think you will find it will all boil down to ..kmcc diary and book...
wrote by her own hand.......
Everyone has been pouring over those for years, and found absolutely nothing.
Unless by chance you have.
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Exactly.......small beer and bread.....
Unless Goncalo was breathalyzed how can anyone prove he was drunk........
Its what they do............
his wife reported he was quite drunk when driving with his daughter in he car...It seems it is what some PJ do...totay unacceptable
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Is it balanced? You have no idea how much he drank, could have been half a pint each lunch time for all we know and maybe he started at 11.30 at night and stopped at 12.00?
the evidence supports that he was quite a heavy drinker.....went out for dinner straight after work..still out at midnight...journalists report heavy lunchtime sessions too I believe
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Everyone has been pouring over those for years, and found absolutely nothing.
Unless by chance you have.
Who do you mean by everyone.....
Surely...... not the posters on here.
I'm talking about PJ...
who are aware of things you and others are not...........
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Who do you mean by everyone.....
Surely...... not the posters on here.
I'm talking about PJ...
who are aware of things you and others are not...........
that's your opinion...nothing more...more likely they don't have any evidence against the mccanns as they have said...imo
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that's your opinion...nothing more...more likely they don't have any evidence against the mccanns as they have said...imo
Yes it says in my opinion
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Yes it says in my opinion
No it doesnt
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Fir balance amaral was still out drinking at midnight after work when he got the message Re Maddie.... Drinking most lunchtimes as, well it seems... How fit would he be for work
So you think it may not be allowed to state that the McCanns may have been pre gaming but you think it is acceptable to say this about Goncalo Amaral?
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No it doesnt
look at the bottom Davel...
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Who do you mean by everyone.....
Surely...... not the posters on here.
I'm talking about PJ...
who are aware of things you and others are not...........
Did The PJ find anything?
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look at the bottom Davel...
Unfortunately your Signature isn't good enough.
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Unfortunately your Signature isn't good enough.
Why ever not ?
Davel has a very similar footnote.
All quite clear to those who read - IMO 8)--))
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Why ever not ?
Davel has a very similar footnote.
All quite clear to those who read - IMO 8)--))
And it's not good enough according to the mods... I still have to put IMO in, all my posts
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And it's not good enough according to the mods... I still have to put IMO in, all my posts
This is true.
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Did The PJ find anything?
That has to remain to be seen ..in my opinion.......
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Unfortunately your Signature isn't good enough.
okey dokey will do ...............in my opinion ........
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okey dokey will do ...............in my opinion ........
What is your signature? I've turned off all signatures, I used to get sick of reading them over and over again.
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What is your signature? I've turned off all signatures, I used to get sick of reading them over and over again.
I would turn off your signature if I was you, Rob. It is a trifle judgemental.
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the evidence supports that he was quite a heavy drinker.....went out for dinner straight after work..still out at midnight...journalists report heavy lunchtime sessions too I believe
Journalists are notoriously heavy drinkers.
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Journalists are notoriously heavy drinkers.
he wasnt a journalist...he was leading a critical police investigation....I would ahve thought that requires a clear head.....
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the evidence supports that he was quite a heavy drinker.....went out for dinner straight after work..still out at midnight...journalists report heavy lunchtime sessions too I believe
No it doesn't, just because someone drinks regularly it doesn't mean they are a heavy drinker. That seems like believing tabloid speculation when it suits, anything to discredit the logical conclusions Amaral came to IMO.
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the evidence supports that he was quite a heavy drinker.....went out for dinner straight after work..still out at midnight...journalists report heavy lunchtime sessions too I believe
It's called stress. Heavy smoking and drinking appears to have been considered almost essential for some detectives.
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It's called stress.
Due to his indictment for Perjury no doubt.
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Due to his indictment for Perjury no doubt.
Would it have been better to have thrown his own men to the wolves when all they were trying to do was extract information from a woman who admitted killing her own daughter and allowed her brother to feed her dismembered body to the pigs?
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Would it have been better to have thrown his own men to the wolves when all they were trying to do was extract information from a woman who admitted killing her own daughter and allowed her brother to feed her dismembered body to the pigs?
In Your Opinion. There was no proof of that.
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Would it have been better to have thrown his own men to the wolves?
You mean it was better to lie than to tell the truth? Pointless 'sacrifice' anyway ... I believe that although the judge said Leonor had been tortured no-one was found guilty of torturing her.
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It's called stress. Heavy smoking and drinking appears to have been considered almost essential for some detectives.
In that case you accept he was not fit to work.
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Would it have been better to have thrown his own men to the wolves when all they were trying to do was extract information from a woman who admitted killing her own daughter and allowed her brother to feed her dismembered body to the pigs?
You accept he lied... And his officers beat cipriani.. I don't think you understand what justice is
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What I know is that that level of alcohol consumption affected his ability to carry out his job
Do you mean you actually stood there and watched what he drank?
Presumably after you had measured volume and strength. Or did you just "nod it in"?
Have Proof Hydrometer. Will Travel. Reads the card of a ?
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Do you mean you actually stood there and watched what he drank?
Presumably after you had measured volume and strength. Or did you just "nod it in"?
Have Proof Hydrometer. Will Travel. Reads the card of a ?
What was the level of blood in his alcohol system?
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What was the level of blood in his alcohol system?
I haven't a clue but seemingly davel has.
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I haven't a clue but seemingly davel has.
I do..
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You accept he lied... And his officers beat cipriani.. I don't think you understand what justice is
I don't accept he lied, he said he believed his officers did not assault Leonor Cipriano and it was later proven her testimony about the beating was lies, so Amaral was acting in good faith based on what he knew to be true.
"The Court of Faro condemned today Leonor Cipriano to seven more months in jail for making false accusations in the process which incriminated five Judiciary Police officers of the crimes of aggression and torture."
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/04/leonor-cipriano-condemned-to-seven-more.html (https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/04/leonor-cipriano-condemned-to-seven-more.html)
Fellow inmates were interviewed and said they assaulted Cipriano.
" I know that just a few days ago we completed an interview with ex-prisoners from the same prison complex, and I know that she was beaten inside the prison. I say this with absolute certainty. And, well, I’m not going to say this is normal but it happens a lot… "
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/11/duarte-levy-paulo-sargento-on-cipriano.html (https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/11/duarte-levy-paulo-sargento-on-cipriano.html)
How all these accusations about lying and drinking supposedly prove Amaral's theories and conclusions are not logical is beyond me.
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It's called stress. Heavy smoking and drinking appears to have been considered almost essential for some detectives.
The medical profession had a similar reputation once, I believe.
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I don't accept he lied, he said he believed his officers did not assault Leonor Cipriano and it was later proven her testimony about the beating was lies, so Amaral was acting in good faith based on what he knew to be true.
"The Court of Faro condemned today Leonor Cipriano to seven more months in jail for making false accusations in the process which incriminated five Judiciary Police officers of the crimes of aggression and torture."
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/04/leonor-cipriano-condemned-to-seven-more.html (https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/04/leonor-cipriano-condemned-to-seven-more.html)
Fellow inmates were interviewed and said they assaulted Cipriano.
" I know that just a few days ago we completed an interview with ex-prisoners from the same prison complex, and I know that she was beaten inside the prison. I say this with absolute certainty. And, well, I’m not going to say this is normal but it happens a lot… "
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/11/duarte-levy-paulo-sargento-on-cipriano.html (https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/11/duarte-levy-paulo-sargento-on-cipriano.html)
How all these accusations about lying and drinking supposedly prove Amaral's theories and conclusions are not logical is beyond me.
Because he couldn't find no sign of an abductor wot dunnit,QED.
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I don't accept he lied, he said he believed his officers did not assault Leonor Cipriano and it was later proven her testimony about the beating was lies, so Amaral was acting in good faith based on what he knew to be true.
"The Court of Faro condemned today Leonor Cipriano to seven more months in jail for making false accusations in the process which incriminated five Judiciary Police officers of the crimes of aggression and torture."
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/04/leonor-cipriano-condemned-to-seven-more.html (https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/04/leonor-cipriano-condemned-to-seven-more.html)
Fellow inmates were interviewed and said they assaulted Cipriano.
" I know that just a few days ago we completed an interview with ex-prisoners from the same prison complex, and I know that she was beaten inside the prison. I say this with absolute certainty. And, well, I’m not going to say this is normal but it happens a lot… "
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/11/duarte-levy-paulo-sargento-on-cipriano.html (https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/11/duarte-levy-paulo-sargento-on-cipriano.html)
How all these accusations about lying and drinking supposedly prove Amaral's theories and conclusions are not logical is beyond me.
Amarals, officers stated in court they saw, her, throw, herself down the, stairs, in the, police, station so they, admitted, bei g present when the injuries happened... The, court did, not believe, them and ruled that they had beaten cipriani... The court also decided, amaral lied..
Amarals theory is not based on logic but on his, misunderstanding of the, evidence.
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Amarals, officers stated in court they saw, her, throw, herself down the, stairs, in the, police, station so they, admitted, bei g present when the injuries happened... The, court did, not believe, them and ruled that they had beaten cipriani... The court also decided, amaral lied..
Amarals theory is not based on logic but on his, misunderstanding of the, evidence.
It's your opinion his theory is not based on logic. Scotland yard have also been investigating a death ( digging in 2014 and using EVRD dogs) and said she may not have left 5a alive, is what they are doing a misunderstanding or not logical? I don't think anyone could argue that it is.
Scotland Yard in 2014 ;
"Scotland Yard said there was still a "substantial amount of work yet to be completed" in its investigation, and that "more activity" was expected to begin shortly.
"This recent work is part of ensuring that all lines of enquiry are progressed in a systematic manner and covers just the one hypothesis that she was killed and buried locally," it said."
https://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/11/world/europe/portugal-uk-mccann/index.html (https://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/11/world/europe/portugal-uk-mccann/index.html)
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his wife reported he was quite drunk when driving with his daughter in he car...It seems it is what some PJ do...totay unacceptable
And some Met officers http://news.met.police.uk/news/serving-officer-guilty-of-drink-driving-265288.
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And some Met officers http://news.met.police.uk/news/serving-officer-guilty-of-drink-driving-265288.
Stop digging stories about the MET up,they have an expertise to uphold remember.
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And some Met officers http://news.met.police.uk/news/serving-officer-guilty-of-drink-driving-265288.
I would condemn them both... Would you
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I would condemn them both... Would you
Of course but it has absolutely nothing to do with their ability as investigators.
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Of course but it has absolutely nothing to do with their ability as investigators.
You think being drunk on duty does not affect a detective’s ability to investigate police matters effectively? Wow.
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It's your opinion his theory is not based on logic. Scotland yard have also been investigating a death ( digging in 2014 and using EVRD dogs) and said she may not have left 5a alive, is what they are doing a misunderstanding or not logical? I don't think anyone could argue that it is.
Scotland Yard in 2014 ;
"Scotland Yard said there was still a "substantial amount of work yet to be completed" in its investigation, and that "more activity" was expected to begin shortly.
"This recent work is part of ensuring that all lines of enquiry are progressed in a systematic manner and covers just the one hypothesis that she was killed and buried locally," it said."
https://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/11/world/europe/portugal-uk-mccann/index.html (https://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/11/world/europe/portugal-uk-mccann/index.html)
Im fairly sure maddie is dead...that doesnt mean I support amarals theory....amarals theory is based on his misunderstanding of the evidence...he thinks there is prooof maddie died in the apartemnt...tehre isnt
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Im fairly sure maddie is dead...that doesnt mean I support amarals theory....amarals theory is based on his misunderstanding of the evidence...he thinks there is prooof maddie died in the apartemnt...tehre isnt
Who's maddie?
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Im fairly sure maddie is dead...that doesnt mean I support amarals theory....amarals theory is based on his misunderstanding of the evidence...he thinks there is prooof maddie died in the apartemnt...tehre isnt
Clearly you misunderstand what Amaral actually knows and also what he understands since he and not you were privy to all the facts and evidence in the case and not what you have merely read in the published case files.
Had he been given the opportunity to finish the job, things might have turned out very differently for the prime suspects.
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Who's maddie?
Maddie McCann.
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Maddie McCann.
I've been working on the Amy Tierney thread and all that talk of Maddy, Abby or Gabby had me confused just for a moment. It was weird for I did actually momentarily pause and think "who is this Maddie?".