UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: jackiepreece on February 26, 2013, 11:26:35 AM
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John
I understand what you are saying and this is another one of the areas that concern me in the case and obviously something that Shona mentions quite rightly all the time.
We know from postmortem reports that Sheila ate later on than other members of the family that night but have not got exact timings. We do know there was a bucket in the kitchen with blooded clothing but this was never tested as far as I know and the defence use the argument that Sheila took part in a 'ritual cleaning' after the murders (something suicide victims often do before killing themselves) which could account for the 'clean' state of Sheila.
I would like to know more about this ritual cleaning?
Once again if the police investigation had been carried out properly they should have wondered why Sheila was so clean and forensically checked the bloodied clothing in the bucket to see if someone else's blood was on the clothing
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Starryian
The difference between you and me is you believe Julie Mugford and I don't.
There is not one shred of evidence that proves she was telling the truth about what Jeremy 'told her'
I take it you have never spoken to her or written to her where as I have spoken to Jeremy at length about his case and come to my own conclusions.
There is NO evidence anywhere to prove Jeremy is a phycopath. Nothing not even from numerous experts
Jeremy's stupid blind arrogance while in the witness box could simply have been that as he wasn't responsible he certainly did not think he could ever be convicted
Just like when questioned by police at different times earlier in the investigation Jeremy did not even ask for a solicitor to be present when interviewed
Starryian perhaps you would like to post details of proof you have of Jeremy being a phycopath, not just the words of a women on her own admittance is a liar and a con person
I look forward to John having contact with Jeremy
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Except for a psychologist who interviewed him before the trial and came to the conclusion that if ever there was a psycopath Bamber most certainly was one? If you take the view that he is a psycopath it certainly makes things a lot easier to understand. Psycopaths are adept at manipulating people, a psychologist who interviewed Ted Bundy said he began to feel manipulated by him. Again, if you take the view that Bamber is a master manipulator it is hardly surprising that Jackie believes in him wholeheartedly following conversations with him. Perhaps I would be readily convinced if I were to spend time in his company. Perhaps John would....
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A fairly recent case that shows an example of 'cleansing' before suicide.
A Hanging at the Beach House: Female Suicide or Murder?
By Steve Albrecht, DBA on September 18, 2011 - 8:35pm
Coronado, California is as close to a perfect place to live as you will find in the world. It features a beautiful beach, safe streets, great shops and restaurants, a well-known playhouse, golf courses, a sweeping blue harbor bridge that attaches it to San Diego, and the historic Hotel Del Coronado. The city is bordered on both sides by the US Navy SEAL Team base and Naval Air Station North Island, where President Obama lands when he arrives on Air Force One to visit San Diego. If you can afford to live there - and small houses start at over one million dollars - it's paradise.
The Coronado police department protects and serves visitors and tourists, longtime residents, retired military officers, and new and old moneyed people. (John McCain's wife, Cindy, owns a beach view condo in Coronado). With about 45 sworn members, it keeps the peace in a largely peaceful city.
So on July 13, 2011, when a young woman was found dead on the grounds of a $12 million Coronado house (known as the Spreckels mansion, after a founding father of the city of San Diego) owned by a rich entrepreneur, they called in the San Diego Sheriff's Department homicide unit to help them investigate.
Rebecca Zahau, 32, was the girlfriend of 54-year-old Jonah Shacknai, a wealthy business owner whose company manufactures health and beauty supplements.
In the early hours of July 13, Rebecca hung herself over a second-floor balcony. Her naked body was found on the ground below, by her boyfriend's brother, who was living on the property in a guest house.
Her death was part of a strange sequence of events in the home. Two days prior to Rebecca's death, Jonah Shacknai's six-year-old son, Max, was seriously injured in a fall from the second story staircase at the home. Child abuse and homicide investigators believe Max tripped over something or fell as he was jumping down the staircase and sustained a life-threatening head injury. They do not believe the boy was pushed or was assaulted in any way.
The assumption is that Rebecca blamed herself for Max's injuries to such a degree that she killed herself out of remorse or shame.
Prior to her death, she had learned that he would not survive his accidental fall and indeed, he died two days after she killed herself.
According to the Sheriff's Department, just after one a.m., while Max was dying at the hospital,
Rebecca Zahau took a shower, removed her clothes, and used a paint brush and a tube of black paint to write a message on the door of a guest room where she kept her art supplies.
The message said, "SHE SAVED HIM/CAN HE SAVE HER?"
She then tied a length of red nylon rope, which she may have retrieved from the garage where boating equipment was stored, to the foot of her bed frame. She wrapped the rope over a long-sleeved shirt she had placed around her neck, bound her feet with the rope, tied her hands behind her back with a series of twisted loops, shuffled over to a small balcony off the window, and leaned or jumped over the railing. She fell about nine feet and the force of the jump strangled her.
Not surprisingly, this case first fascinated residents of the cities of Coronado and San Diego, before it became national and international news. How could this house become the scene of two suspicious deaths in such a short time? Was the little boy killed or did he fall?
Was Rebecca murdered or did she kill herself because she actually abused the boy or because she felt guilt about not supervising him properly?
In a two-hour news conference, the San Diego Sheriff's Department provided a detailed account of their investigation, evidence, and conclusions about her death: the black paint from her door note was found on her hand and body; there was a small knife and a large knife in the bedroom - her fingerprints were found on the small one and her DNA was found on the large one; her DNA was found on the bed, the rope, the balcony door, and the bedroom door; her bare feet and toe impressions were found on the dusty balcony floor; changes in the dust on the balcony railing were consistent with her body going over it, as were the scrapes on her back and legs from hitting the large plants below. No other footprints, fingerprints, or DNA that was not hers was found at the scene. There were no signs of a fight, struggle, or sexual assault in the bedroom.
Rebecca's family has disputed the results of the investigation and has hired an attorney. Well-known forensic pathologist, Dr. Michael Baden (no stranger to high-profile media cases involving unique deaths), looked at the case details from his office in New York, and told the San Diego Union-Tribune that he believed the Sheriff's investigation was valid and accurate.
Rebecca's family is outraged that the Sheriff's investigation could conclude that she killed herself.
They disagree that it was from grief, shame, or depression. She had told friends and family that she had felt depressed over the past year, but her parents didn't believe that was true.
They said she had a lot to live for her and her personality was always cheerful.
And what about being naked?
Her parents insist that their Burmese-Asian culture is far too modest for a woman to leave herself uncovered in death.
And what about the fact that her hands and feet were bound?
How could she have tied her own hands behind her back? The Sheriff's Department actually produced a video re-enactment of how they believe Rebecca tied her own hands, which they showed at the press conference that covered details of their investigation. Based on how the ropes were twisted into large loops around her wrists, it would not have taken an acrobat or the ghost of Harry Houdini to tie her own hands. (You can view the video link at www.uniontrib.com/mansion)
Dr. Michael Baden told the local paper that of the 32,000 people who killed themselves last year, hanging was second only to gun shots as the method for their suicides. Many clinicians involved in suicide research or who perform psychological autopsies on behalf of a medical examiner's office agree that women don't usually disfigure themselves in their suicides (i.e., gun shots to the face or slashed wrists), which makes hangings or intentional drug overdoses as their methods of choice.
And what about the cryptic note painted on the door, in Rebecca's own hand?
Why was it not more explicit?
Why did she write it in such a way that we can't interpret it fully as to what she was feeling, or whether she blamed herself for little Max's injuries and subsequent death, or why she chose to kill herself in such a provocative way?
Bill Gore (who was the Special Agent in Charge of the San Diego FBI field office prior to his election as San Diego County Sheriff in 2006) said that he reviewed a 2008 Georgetown University School of Medicine study that
said the reasons why people committed suicide in the nude was as a way to atone for their actions, as a cleansing ritual, or as a self-abasement for their guilt.
The suicidal dead take their reasons with them.
Rebecca Zahau had her reasons and while they are far from satisfying for her family, they are what they are. There is nothing at this point that suggests the Sheriff's Department botched the investigation. Their work was thorough and exact, not just because it initially looked like a murder, but also because of the high-profile nature of the location, the homeowner, and the previous incident involving the little boy.
There is nothing to connect Rebecca's brother or her boyfriend to her death, or any other known or unknown person. There is no forensically-skilled maniac roaming the streets of Coronado, using suicide scenarios to cover up his homicides. She is dead at her own hand and that is a tragedy.
drsteve@drstevealbrecht.com
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Another discussion piece on the Internet in regard to ritual cleaning and suicide
Actually, it's much more common for women to commit suicide in the nude. Some forensic psychologists believe it has to do with the intimacy of death, others suggest it is related to a desire not to ruin a perfectly good outfit. I suspect it has more to do with the choice of manner of death. Women tend toward drug overdose or poison. Either may cause drowsiness first. Drowsiness leads to preparation for bed, thus undressing.
The next most common means of suicide for women is wrist slashing. This is usually done in the comfort of a warm bath. It's the same for men, by the way. The bath tub is the spot of choice for wrist slashing.
On the relatively rare occasions when women shoot themselves, they almost never shoot through clothing. They tend to shoot for the heart but open their blouse first.
Finally, the vast majority of women who commit suicide do so while having their periods.
I am certified to do what is referred to as the Medicolegal Investigation of Death through a medical school, I will say in any cases that I have encountered very rarely do we find men or women in the nude. If we do it is significant of a "ritualistic type suicide". In that it is referred to a cleansing ritual, it also present in homicides. One cleanses the body in order to bring a feeling of completion spiritually, once they have obtained the sought after emotion, they pull the trigger, and it makes it easier on the family to look at there deceased loved one in a clean wholesome state. (DAMN,) tis is hard to explain to you.
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Is it just me or does anyone else find the "ritual cleansing" theory to be a desperate attempt at clutching at straws to find something, anything that may prove Jeremy's innocence? Even when this is at total odds with all the evidence? What this doesn't explain is that Sheila's nails were in perfect condition too which they would not have been had she loaded and fired the rifle so many times. Also surely the shower would have been covered in blood too if this were the case. Was it? There's no mention of this. Did she clean the shower as well?
It's widely thought (on both sides of the argument) that the reason Nevill was in the kitchen was because he was trying to get to the phone. Someone made a pretty good job of making sure that he didn't get there. I don't think Sheila would have been that desperate to stop him getting to the phone. After all why fear the police if she was only going to kill herself anyway? Someone didn't want Nevill getting to the phone and telling exactly what was happening. Who would have more of an interest in ensuring Nevill didn't phone 999? Jeremy or Sheila?
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Grasping at straws Jackie?
So now you are asking us to believe that Sheila went round shooting everyone in the nude before washing and getting into her nightdress before shooting herself? Interesting theory Jackie and it would have been plausible had there been any signs of this found in the bathroom such as blood spots or bloodied towels etc.
Without any evidence of this Jackie I'm afraid we must consign this piece of speculation to the bin as well.
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Goatboy just debating the points/mysteries in the Bamber case?
Just wondered if the police who carried out a thorough search of WHF but 'missed' the silencer even checked/looked at the shower
By the way I don't believe Sheila's hands were in a perfect state and I believe there is more to come out about this
David just debating the case and as you know the police carried out a very bad investigation/search of WHF maybe there are photos not released that show more blood at WHF
Once again we need more PII material released
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Grasping at straws Jackie?
So now you are asking us to believe that Sheila went round shooting everyone in the nude before washing and getting into her nightdress before shooting herself? Interesting theory Jackie and it would have been plausible had there been any signs of this found in the bathroom such as blood spots or bloodied towels etc.
Without any evidence of this Jackie I'm afraid we must consign this piece of speculation to the bin as well.
To be fair, it was old Colly Cropper who invented the ritual cleansing thing.
(I wonder if she's STILL trying to peer through my bedroom window on googlemap? Ugh.)
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Goatboy just debating the points/mysteries in the Bamber case?
Just wondered if the police who carried out a thorough search of WHF but 'missed' the silencer even checked/looked at the shower
By the way I don't believe Sheila's hands were in a perfect state and I believe there is more to come out about this
David just debating the case and as you know the police carried out a very bad investigation/search of WHF maybe there are photos not released that show more blood at WHF
Once again we need more PII material released
I don't believe the police 'missed' the silencer Jack. They had no reason to go looking for other weapons or gun accessories after finding what appeared to be four murders and a suicide.
Could Jeremy have taken the silencer with him on the morning of the murders but placed it back in the gun cabinet secretly afterwards? That would explain why the police didn't recover it after the murders while David Boutflour was able to find it a few days later?
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Shona I never realised it was the stab me in the back merchant cropper who came up with the ritual cleaning theory? I thought the Official Campaign team have mentioned it also.
To be honest with the bucket full up with bloodied clothes its the only explanation that seems feasible for the totally keystone cops police investigation who didn't take into account Sheila's body was 'clean'.
Something does not ring true about this because I just don't believe the police could have been that bad to overlook important details about the crime scene.
John you would have thought he would have cleaned the silencer if he had enough time wouldn't you
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Shona I never realised it was the stab me in the back merchant cropper who came up with the ritual cleaning theory? I thought the Official Campaign team have mentioned it also.
To be honest with the bucket full up with bloodied clothes its the only explanation that seems feasible for the totally keystone cops police investigation who didn't take into account Sheila's body was 'clean'.
Something does not ring true about this because I just don't believe the police could have been that bad to overlook important details about the crime scene.
John you would have thought he would have cleaned the silencer if he had enough time wouldn't you
Jack, do you really believe that if you had just killed your parents and children that you would bother to wash clothes? In any event, she didn't have enough time to wash herself and do everything else since PC Bews and his colleagues were on the scene very quickly after Jeremy reported a call from his father. Also note that Sheila's hair was dry in the photos.
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Shona I never realised it was the stab me in the back merchant cropper who came up with the ritual cleaning theory? I thought the Official Campaign team have mentioned it also.
To be honest with the bucket full up with bloodied clothes its the only explanation that seems feasible for the totally keystone cops police investigation who didn't take into account Sheila's body was 'clean'.
Something does not ring true about this because I just don't believe the police could have been that bad to overlook important details about the crime scene.
John you would have thought he would have cleaned the silencer if he had enough time wouldn't you
You're probably right, Jac, I never read the campaign stuff. But I do remember old Colly going on and on about it, because I wondered how Sheila had enough time to kill everyone, shower, dry herself, dry her hair, put her jewellery back on etc., etc. Then make sure she had 2 bullets, in case the first one didn't work.
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Is it just me or does anyone else find the "ritual cleansing" theory to be a desperate attempt at clutching at straws to find something, anything that may prove Jeremy's innocence? Even when this is at total odds with all the evidence?
I've seen a lot of this clutching at straws business around these forums.
Welcome to the forum iimaginary. Would you like to introduce yourself in the new members section. TY
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John with regard to Sheila we are now broaching the subject of was Sheila still alive when the police were outside and could she have still walked about with the first shot???
I don't think either of us know that for definate.
I would really like any sound recordings from the time of entry to WHF released to the defence/prosecution even if only under strict conditions plus file one when the police believed it was murder/suicide.
There must be so much more information that should be shared in that file.
Being open and transparent is the only way MOJ cases can be fairly assessed
John keep writing to Jeremy if he turns you down because in the end 'he' might decide he wants to speak to you
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John with regard to Sheila we are now broaching the subject of was Sheila still alive when the police were outside and could she have still walked about with the first shot???
I don't think either of us know that for definate.
I would really like any sound recordings from the time of entry to WHF released to the defence/prosecution even if only under strict conditions plus file one when the police believed it was murder/suicide.
There must be so much more information that should be shared in that file.
Being open and transparent is the only way MOJ cases can be fairly assessed
John keep writing to Jeremy if he turns you down because in the end 'he' might decide he wants to speak to you
Out with my chainsaw today taking a hawthorn hedge down to the fenceline so popped in for a cuppa.
Jack, we have looked at this at great length, Sheila was incapacitated by the first shot as can be seen by the original photos and the absence of any blood smearing anywhere.
I also doubt whether any sound recordings even exist any more as so much time has gone by.
And as far as PII is concerned, judges and the CCRC have looked at this and found that there is nothing relevant to the killings.
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John with regard to your comments below
And as far as PII is concerned, judges and the CCRC have looked at this and found that there is nothing relevant to the killings.
Was that the case with the Guildford Four the judges looked at documents held back and found there was nothing 'proving' the Guilford Four were innocent
It was only Gareth Pierce being allowed access to documents 'not to be shown to the defence' which she should clearly not have been allowed to see or the Guildford Four would still be in prison.
The 'Justice System' KNEW the Guildford Four were innocent for a number of years, so you can see why I am suspicious of Judges and the CCRC
Have we any evidence things have changed.
I would have thought it was vital to keep those recordings as the most accurate record of what happened at WHF that night. I bet everyone on this forum would like to listen to them
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John this is taken from the Jeremy Bamber Website where they are stating
the pathologist confirmed in court that this first shot wouldn't have killed her and that she would have been able to walk around with this injury.)
How do we know the truth about this?
You must be asking, how did Jeremy get blamed for the killings if the police knew Sheila was alive? Remember that the original Inspector on the case Taff Jones was adamant that Jeremy was innocent. He knew the truth, that the firearms team had bungled the raid on the house, they probably had failed to notice that Sheila was still alive with one gunshot wound to the tissue in her neck (the pathologist confirmed in court that this first shot wouldn't have killed her and that she would have been able to walk around with this injury.)
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John with regard to your comments below
And as far as PII is concerned, judges and the CCRC have looked at this and found that there is nothing relevant to the killings.
Was that the case with the Guildford Four the judges looked at documents held back and found there was nothing 'proving' the Guilford Four were innocent
It was only Gareth Pierce being allowed access to documents 'not to be shown to the defence' which she should clearly not have been allowed to see or the Guildford Four would still be in prison.
The 'Justice System' KNEW the Guildford Four were innocent for a number of years, so you can see why I am suspicious of Judges and the CCRC
Have we any evidence things have changed.
I would have thought it was vital to keep those recordings as the most accurate record of what happened at WHF that night. I bet everyone on this forum would like to listen to them
Good point Jack. I agree there a lot of unscrupulous people out there masquerading as the bastions of law and order. The recent police prosecutions are testament to this and it is a sorry state of affairs for sure. That said however, you cannot apply this to each and every potential wrongful conviction in the hope that if you shake enough tress then something useful and incriminating might fall out.
I think the situation has got worse and not better which is a very sad indictment of our criminal justice system. You only have to look at the number of police officers who have criminal records to understand what a mess our country is in.
The only reason documents and photos have been withheld in the Jeremy Bamber case is to protect Essex Police from criticism. I don't believe for a minute that there is any other reason for withholding anything.
You have to accept Jack that Jeremy put Sheila in the frame when he implicated her in the crime. Clearing sheila of any blame renders Jeremy guilty by default.
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John this is taken from the Jeremy Bamber Website where they are stating
the pathologist confirmed in court that this first shot wouldn't have killed her and that she would have been able to walk around with this injury.)
How do we know the truth about this?
You must be asking, how did Jeremy get blamed for the killings if the police knew Sheila was alive? Remember that the original Inspector on the case Taff Jones was adamant that Jeremy was innocent. He knew the truth, that the firearms team had bungled the raid on the house, they probably had failed to notice that Sheila was still alive with one gunshot wound to the tissue in her neck (the pathologist confirmed in court that this first shot wouldn't have killed her and that she would have been able to walk around with this injury.)
That isn't strictly true Jack.
In Dr Vanezis' statement of 30 September 1985 (extract below) he states that the initial shot would have stunned her although she would not have lost complete consciousness. He also states that she was sat down during and between both shots which rules out completely any possibility of her getting to her feet.
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In Dr Vanezis' statement of 7 May 1986 (extract below) he states that Sheila could have been standing on sitting when she received the first shot and that she certainly didn't get up. She may have been able to hold her head up after the first shot but only for a very short period of time.
Seems there is absolutely no doubt about this Jack. Sheila didn't get up, she didn't walk about and she didn't climb any stairs as Mike Tesko has promoted across on the Jeremy Bamber fantasy forum!!
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You may also wish to consult Dr Vanezis' statement of 12 November 1986 where he was very critical of the police efforts.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=206.msg2231#msg2231
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We have looked at this in depth and even without the good doctors various reports it is very clear that Sheila never got to her feet after the first shot. She didn't even have the mobility to put her hands to her neck wound which is the first thing someone does when they are shot. Shona always makes the very valid point that had she been fully conscious she would have coughed up blood and it would have been visible down the front of her nightdress. You have to face the facts Jackie, Sheila was more or less incapacitated by the first shot, she would not have been able to find the rifle, position it and pull the trigger even if she had wanted to.
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We have looked at this in depth and even without the good doctors various reports it is very clear that Sheila never got to her feet after the first shot. She didn't even have the mobility to put her hands to her neck wound which is the first thing someone does when they are shot. Shona always makes the very valid point that had she been fully conscious she would have coughed up blood and it would have been visible down the front of her nightdress. You have to face the facts Jackie, Sheila was more or less incapacitated by the first shot, she would not have been able to find the rifle, position it and pull the trigger even if she had wanted to.
Dr Vanezis never saw the original photos until after he had made his first statement and he was shocked by them when he eventually did see them. He could tell from the original photos that Sheila was never upright after the initial shot otherwise the blood trail would have run vertically down her neck.
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John this is taken from the Jeremy Bamber Website where they are stating
the pathologist confirmed in court that this first shot wouldn't have killed her and that she would have been able to walk around with this injury.)
How do we know the truth about this?
You must be asking, how did Jeremy get blamed for the killings if the police knew Sheila was alive? Remember that the original Inspector on the case Taff Jones was adamant that Jeremy was innocent. He knew the truth, that the firearms team had bungled the raid on the house, they probably had failed to notice that Sheila was still alive with one gunshot wound to the tissue in her neck (the pathologist confirmed in court that this first shot wouldn't have killed her and that she would have been able to walk around with this injury.)
Just goes to show how much crap is posted on the jeremy bamber website then doesnt it?? 8)--))
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We have looked at this in depth and even without the good doctors various reports it is very clear that Sheila never got to her feet after the first shot. She didn't even have the mobility to put her hands to her neck wound which is the first thing someone does when they are shot. Shona always makes the very valid point that had she been fully conscious she would have coughed up blood and it would have been visible down the front of her nightdress. You have to face the facts Jackie, Sheila was more or less incapacitated by the first shot, she would not have been able to find the rifle, position it and pull the trigger even if she had wanted to.
The first shot wasn't just a "tissue wound", Sheila's jugular vein was lacerated, which caused a serious internal haemorrhage which can be clearly seen contained in her throat. IMO, that blood would have both been expirated and also swallowed if that shot hadn't rendered her unconscious. So, ANY theory on the blue forum is, basically, untenable. Which is a polite way of saying "crap."
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John this is taken from the Jeremy Bamber Website where they are stating
the pathologist confirmed in court that this first shot wouldn't have killed her and that she would have been able to walk around with this injury.)
How do we know the truth about this?
You must be asking, how did Jeremy get blamed for the killings if the police knew Sheila was alive? Remember that the original Inspector on the case Taff Jones was adamant that Jeremy was innocent. He knew the truth, that the firearms team had bungled the raid on the house, they probably had failed to notice that Sheila was still alive with one gunshot wound to the tissue in her neck (the pathologist confirmed in court that this first shot wouldn't have killed her and that she would have been able to walk around with this injury.)
Just goes to show how much crap is posted on the jeremy bamber website then doesnt it?? 8)--))
We don't have a full trial transcript so anything which is reported as having been said at trial is just speculation and as such has no place here. Corroborated facts and evidence is all we are interested in, nothing else matters.
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John this is taken from the Jeremy Bamber Website where they are stating
the pathologist confirmed in court that this first shot wouldn't have killed her and that she would have been able to walk around with this injury.)
How do we know the truth about this?
You must be asking, how did Jeremy get blamed for the killings if the police knew Sheila was alive? Remember that the original Inspector on the case Taff Jones was adamant that Jeremy was innocent. He knew the truth, that the firearms team had bungled the raid on the house, they probably had failed to notice that Sheila was still alive with one gunshot wound to the tissue in her neck (the pathologist confirmed in court that this first shot wouldn't have killed her and that she would have been able to walk around with this injury.)
Just goes to show how much crap is posted on the jeremy bamber website then doesnt it?? 8)--))
We don't have a full trial transcript so anything which is reported as having been said at trial is just speculation and as such has no place here. Corroborated facts and evidence is all we are interested in, nothing else matters.
I think that the lack of facts and evidence is a huge problem for JB supporters. No one wants to read four old ladies calling each other "dear one" and discussing June's supposed mental health. Or the fact that Ralph was too much of a gent to knock a gun out of Sheila's hands when she was intent on murdering his wife and grandchildren. And....just why DID JB call the police (in such a long-winded way?) Ralph didn't ask him to, he asked him to "come quick." He didn't say "would you mind awfully just calling Julie, she might answer, she might not, then, if it isn't too much of a massive ball-ache, could you waste more time leafing through the phone book and ringing the local police station? Sorry to be such a bother."
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We have looked at this in depth and even without the good doctors various reports it is very clear that Sheila never got to her feet after the first shot. She didn't even have the mobility to put her hands to her neck wound which is the first thing someone does when they are shot. Shona always makes the very valid point that had she been fully conscious she would have coughed up blood and it would have been visible down the front of her nightdress. You have to face the facts Jackie, Sheila was more or less incapacitated by the first shot, she would not have been able to find the rifle, position it and pull the trigger even if she had wanted to.
The first shot wasn't just a "tissue wound", Sheila's jugular vein was lacerated, which caused a serious internal haemorrhage which can be clearly seen contained in her throat. IMO, that blood would have both been expirated and also swallowed if that shot hadn't rendered her unconscious. So, ANY theory on the blue forum is, basically, untenable. Which is a polite way of saying "crap."
It cannot be emphasised the extent to which Dr Vanezis was shocked when he saw the original crime scene photos of Sheila some time after the murders. He was angry that he had not been called to check out the bodies in situ as this would have allowed him to make a more informed decision as to the cause of death.
David Boutflour put it most succinctly a few months back when he commented on camera on the Mark Williams-Thomas documentary about the condition in which Sheila was originally found with "without a hair out of place no damages...her nails were still perfect...".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i2CjYDJGTo Timeline 06.20
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We have looked at this in depth and even without the good doctors various reports it is very clear that Sheila never got to her feet after the first shot. She didn't even have the mobility to put her hands to her neck wound which is the first thing someone does when they are shot. Shona always makes the very valid point that had she been fully conscious she would have coughed up blood and it would have been visible down the front of her nightdress. You have to face the facts Jackie, Sheila was more or less incapacitated by the first shot, she would not have been able to find the rifle, position it and pull the trigger even if she had wanted to.
The first shot wasn't just a "tissue wound", Sheila's jugular vein was lacerated, which caused a serious internal haemorrhage which can be clearly seen contained in her throat. IMO, that blood would have both been expirated and also swallowed if that shot hadn't rendered her unconscious. So, ANY theory on the blue forum is, basically, untenable. Which is a polite way of saying "crap."
It cannot be emphasised the extent to which Dr Vanezis was shocked when he saw the original crime scene photos of Sheila some time after the murders. He was angry that he had not been called to check out the bodies in situ as this would have allowed him to make a more informed decision as to the cause of death.
David Boutflour put it most succinctly a few months back when he commented on camera at the end of the Mark Williams-Thomas documentary about the condition in which Sheila was originally found with "without a hair out of place no damages...her nails were still perfect...". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i2CjYDJGTo Timeline 06.20
Dr. Vanezis was shocked, that's true, and disillusioned. By the time he viewed Sheila's body, there was blood everywhere. Because her body had been moved and disturbed. But, thanks to Mike, we can all see what Sheila looked like on the floor. Where she died. At no point was her body on the bed. And "special branch" was never written in blood. What bollocks. Madness. It was Bamber (or whoever) wiping the blood from the silencer.
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John I believe there are some queries over the state of Sheila's hands re her nails and that is why I strongly believe the contents of file one when the police believed it was a murder suicide should be released to the defence without delay (apart from the most sensitive information i.e. police officers personal information).
In the same token as Sheila didn't show any signs of a struggle fight with Neville (he could have already been shot and dying and weak when attacked) Jeremy did not show any sign of this 'violent struggle' with Neville.
In fact Julie Mugford was interviewed over 32 times but failed to mention any kind of injuries from two big men struggling and she would obviously have seen JB naked and other people I believe would have seen JB's body when he went windsurfing
There was I believe also no marks on Sheila where she might have been held down and struggled being put into a certain position to be shot
For the above reasons I believe the defence should fight for File one to be released as it might give some more definate answers either way
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John I believe there are some queries over the state of Sheila's hands re her nails and that is why I strongly believe the contents of file one when the police believed it was a murder suicide should be released to the defence without delay (apart from the most sensitive information i.e. police officers personal information).
In the same token as Sheila didn't show any signs of a struggle fight with Neville (he could have already been shot and dying and weak when attacked) Jeremy did not show any sign of this 'violent struggle' with Neville.
In fact Julie Mugford was interviewed over 32 times but failed to mention any kind of injuries from two big men struggling and she would obviously have seen JB naked and other people I believe would have seen JB's body when he went windsurfing
There was I believe also no marks on Sheila where she might have been held down and struggled being put into a certain position to be shot
For the above reasons I believe the defence should fight for File one to be released as it might give some more definate answers either way
Are you suggesting that Bamber used to indulge in nude windsurfing?
Honestly! Just when you thought you'd heard it all!
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John I believe there are some queries over the state of Sheila's hands re her nails and that is why I strongly believe the contents of file one when the police believed it was a murder suicide should be released to the defence without delay (apart from the most sensitive information i.e. police officers personal information).
In the same token as Sheila didn't show any signs of a struggle fight with Neville (he could have already been shot and dying and weak when attacked) Jeremy did not show any sign of this 'violent struggle' with Neville.
In fact Julie Mugford was interviewed over 32 times but failed to mention any kind of injuries from two big men struggling and she would obviously have seen JB naked and other people I believe would have seen JB's body when he went windsurfing
There was I believe also no marks on Sheila where she might have been held down and struggled being put into a certain position to be shot
For the above reasons I believe the defence should fight for File one to be released as it might give some more definate answers either way
I am still awaiting your response to yesterdays speculations Jack? Did you read the good Dr's statements?
By the same token, Dr Vanezis reported no blood on Sheila's palms or fingertips! So how does one shoot oneself twice without getting blood on ones fingers or on the rifle trigger?
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Re the so-called fight with Nevill. Jeremy was well protected by his clothing and was lucky not to have been bruised except for marks on his hand which were unaccounted for. I won't even mention the wetsuit theory.
We know for sure that Nevill was shot as he opened the bedroom door and shot again as he moved to and went down the stairs leaving blood on the wall as he staggered down. It was then that Bamber emptied his remaining rounds into June. Badly wounded Nevill managed to get to the kitchen probably aiming to get to the phone but was again assaulted by Jeremy using the rifle to batter him before reloading and shooting him three more times. Other than a struggle with the rifle Nevill really didn't have a chance to strike out at Jeremy so it isn't in the least surprising that he remained for the most part unmarked.
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I am obviously not an expert on forensics, blood etc but I will always struggle to accept any forensics as facts when we are talking about a silencer the relatives found and took home and dabbled with it !!!
There does seem to be very conflicting stories about the blood and it does not help when evidence in a case appears to be maliciously destroyed while an appeal is being prepared for one of the biggest murder cases in the Essex Police history
What actual FACTS are correct and what is speculation regarding the blood in the silencer ????
John below taken from the official JB Website
The 2002 Appeal and the mystery of blood in the sound moderator
by J, Bamber and J, Martin-Adams, last updated 25.01.13
Part of the prosecution case against Jeremy Bamber at his trial in 1986 involved the claim that a blood flake discovered inside a sound moderator must have originated from Sheila Caffell. Supposedly, the existence of this blood meant that the sound moderator must have been attached to the rifle when the murders were carried out. However, because the moderator was later discovered in the gun cupboard, Sheila could not have committed suicide with it still attached. It is, of course, as the judge put it, ‘inconceivable’ that she could have shot herself and then unscrewed the moderator and put it away.
However, the argument concerning Sheila’s blood was undermined seriously by tests carried out prior to the 2002 appeal,
Laboratory Testing
which involved DNA testing which was not available in 1985.
These tests cast doubt on the claim that Sheila’s blood had ever been present inside the moderator, prompting the Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC) to make a referral to the Court of Appeal during their 2001 investigation.
Background – the significance of the AK enzyme
Human blood is made up of a number of different constituents including red and white blood cells, plasma, and a number of different enzymes. In forensic science, some of these enzymes are used to make the distinction between blood samples from one person and blood samples from another. One example is the AK enzyme, which would become important in the case of Jeremy Bamber.
Human beings have two types of AK enzyme, namely, AK1 and AK2-1[1]. The blood flake discovered inside the sound moderator was analyzed and found to contain the AK1 enzyme, meaning that it could not have originated from June Bamber, whose blood contained AK2-1[2]. The blood of the other deceased family members – Nevill Bamber, Daniel Caffell and Nicholas Caffell – belonged to the AK-1 grouping. David Boutflour and Ann Eaton (the children of Robert and Pamela Boutflour) also shared the AK1 grouping: both handled Nevill Bamber’s sound moderator (DB/1) before giving it to Essex Police[3]. Sheila Caffell’s enzyme blood grouping was A, PGM 1 +, EAP BA, AK1, HP2-1: an identical match to Robert Boutflour, Jeremy’s uncle though marriage to his mother’s sister, Pamela Speakman. Both Robert and Pamela were primary beneficiaries of the estate upon the conviction of Jeremy Bamber[4].
At the 1986 trial, the Court was told that the discovery of the AK-1 enzyme constituted clear evidence that the blood flake found inside the sound moderator came from Sheila Caffell[5].
WHAT THE COURT WAS NOT TOLD ******************************
What the Court was not told was that the AK-1 enzyme found in human blood is genetically identical to the AK-1 enzyme found in the blood of pigs, cattle, rabbits, chickens and carp[6].
The rifle and the sound moderators were used to shoot game and could have been carried alongside rabbits when returning from a shoot.
Had the Court been informed that two types of animal blood were found on the outer surface of the first sound moderator (SBJ/1)[7], perhaps the discovery of the AK-1 enzyme would have been attributed to animal, rather than human, blood.
IMPORTANT
****************************************
Given that this discovery was not disclosed until
after
the 2002 Appeal[8]
****************************************
Non disclosure again???
, the Court was denied the opportunity to consider the significance of this information during the 1986 trial.
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I think the theory that the blood could have been animal in origin has been widely discredited.
Anyway, why would anyone shoot an animal using a silencer with that same silencer pressing into its flesh (which it would have to have been in order for the blood to splatter into the sound moderator)? And how unlucky for Jeremy that this happened, and coincidentally there was such a close match to Sheila's DNA from the "animal" blood.
It is unfortunate that the silencer was found not by the police but members of the extended family. However, somebody raised a good point about this (can't remember who, sorry!), namely that Bamber may have stashed the silencer at his house and returned it to the gun cupboard when he thought the coast was clear (would have been a bit of a risk leaving it in the house where the police could have found it on the morning of the murders).
I'll say this again-material from the Bamber website is hardly going to be independent and unbiased. Would you not agree that the website has an agenda and a cause to further. It is hardly a reliable source.
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Goatboy I do understand your points about unbiased reporting and trying to work out fact from fiction and speculation
For instance two of the biggest facts/fiction
Jeremy hated farming????
Jeremy hated Sheila????
From everything I have read there is no REAL evidence of this is there???
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Goatboy I do understand your points about unbiased reporting and trying to work out fact from fiction and speculation
For instance two of the biggest facts/fiction
Jeremy hated farming????
Jeremy hated Sheila????
From everything I have read there is no REAL evidence of this is there???
Jackie, a question.
If Jeremy loved farming so much why did he clear off to New Zealand twice leaving Nevill to run the farm alone in order to get a diving qualification?
He was jealous of Sheila with her Maida Vale flat all paid for by daddy. The thought of her coming back into the fold and having her twin sons inherit was too much for Jeremy to bear.
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John I believe a lot of things that have been said about Jeremy have been fed to us by the media like the fabricated porche (that never was) story, that's why I would like you to have the opportunity to ask him questions directly or to his face.
I personally know numerous young people that have taken gap years from studies just to go 'travelling' for fun or maybe to learn 'diving'. It's something very common now but maybe not so common 28 years ago and was just more common in probably people that were a bit better off. A lot of the people I know that went travelling on a gap year came back finished their studies and some then went on knuckled down and joined the family business. I have read nothing, or heard anything from Jeremy himself that indicates he hated farming. I don't know if you have seen Jeremy's cottage but its beautiful and I know his parents furnished it for him. It's right opposite a gorgeous little pub he used to eat his meals in most nights and he didn't have to suffer travelling long distances to work every day. He lived in one of the most beautiful places in Essex and had the advantage of being out in the fresh air with the sun on his back all summer and was so close to the river/sea he could go everyday. I have never seen or heard anything from Jeremy that made me believe he hankered after Sheila's live at all. I can't think of anyone who would swap Jeremy's life for Sheila's life. It appears she was only ever really happy for a short time while working as a model. Most of us that live in Essex like to go on nights out in London but no way does that mean we want to live there. From what I have learnt I believe Jeremy had a unique relationship with Sheila in that when he was younger he used to look up to her and loved her taking him up to London to meet her model girlfriends but when he was older himself and had girlfriends and Sheila started having problems they grew apart.
He certainly didn't understand her illness like most young guys of his age. I have not seen one piece of hard evidence to suggest Jeremy hated Sheila or hated farming. Where did the information come from about Jeremy couldn't bare Sheila coming back into the fold?
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What makes you think that the comments about buying a porsche was a media invention Jack? Didn't the police officer who was looking after Jeremy in the panda car say as much? Wasn't it stated that this officer wanted to take his mind off events and so they started discussing cars and Jeremy simply made the comment?
Isn't it also true that this issue was discussed at great length some time ago on the blue forum and they and you tried to infer that Jeremy wanted to buy a Porsche look-a-like kit car and not a proper Porsche?
Tut tut Jack! 8(0(*
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Goatboy I do understand your points about unbiased reporting and trying to work out fact from fiction and speculation
For instance two of the biggest facts/fiction
Jeremy hated farming????
Jeremy hated Sheila????
From everything I have read there is no REAL evidence of this is there???
Have you read Julie's 30-odd page statement Jack? I don't see Ann Eaton or David Boutflour saying anything different or anyone else who knew them for that matter.
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John I believe a lot of things that have been said about Jeremy have been fed to us by the media like the fabricated porche (that never was) story, that's why I would like you to have the opportunity to ask him questions directly or to his face.
Regarding 'fictitious' talk about the Porsche, it's all there in the Documents Library, Jackie... if you'd take the time to look and study.
A section from the 1986 court transcript of the evidence of PC Stephen John Myall examined by Mr. Arlidge....,
(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/6946/stephenmyallcourttransc.jpg)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=167.0 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=167.0)
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John you need to look at independent statements about Jeremy's character not statements that are not factual
See below
Jeremy very much enjoyed farming
From 79-80 Jeremy spent time in Australia travelling. For 5 months he worked on a sugar plantation working with a family in Queensland; he really enjoyed employment for them on the farm and still speaks about their ingenious inventions of various types of machinery to harvest crops. At the end of that year he went to New Zealand and back to Australia a couple of times but for no great length of time. It has been suggested that Jeremy hated farming, if this was so then why did he work on a farm in Australia and not as a barman for example?
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Many of Jeremy’s responses have been used against him, for example, the talk of buying a Porsche was used as evidence to demonstrate that he was already planning to spend his inheritance on a new Sports car, but the truth was that Jeremy was referring to a buying a cheap kit Porsche.
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Further details about the 'porche'
Jeremy’s designated police minders tried to ease the young man’s fears and engaged him in conversation. At one point, Jeremy mentioned his interest in purchasing a Porsche. At trial the following year, the prosecution alleged that Jeremy wished to purchase a new Porsche, at a cost of many tens of thousands of pounds. They told the jury that this planned extravagant expenditure indicated prior knowledge that he was soon to inherit his parent’s wealth. The prosecution’s claim was inaccurate; Jeremy did plan to buy a car but the vehicle in question was a replica Porsche kit car, at a cost of approximately £2000. Jeremy could afford such a vehicle without the inheritance money. The police later confirmed it was a replica car from interviewing the manufacturer (Covan Turbo) that Jeremy had contacted. Under cross-examination PC Myall agreed that cars were just ‘one of many topics’ he and Jeremy discussed ‘to keep his mind as far away from the house… as possible.’
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John put the porche and farming on the list to ask him about
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I am impressed with the latest official blog
NOT !!!!!
That's really going to help isn't it ?????
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Can you put a link up please?
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Can you put a link up please?
I think Jackie means this one... http://jeremybambercampaigner.blogspot.co.uk/2013_02_01_archive.html (http://jeremybambercampaigner.blogspot.co.uk/2013_02_01_archive.html)
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Ah right, there's so many blogs, sites etc. This would fit in with what Jackie means.
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I don't know if you have seen Jeremy's cottage but its beautiful and I know his parents furnished it for him. It's right opposite a gorgeous little pub he used to eat his meals in most nights and he didn't have to suffer travelling long distances to work every day.
****************************************************
I have never seen or heard anything from Jeremy that made me believe he hankered after Sheila's live at all. I can't think of anyone who would swap Jeremy's life for Sheila's life.
Is this what you call right opposite, Jackie?
1 = 9 Head Street
2 = The Chequers Inn
(http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/8805/headstreetgoldhanger.jpg)
(http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/5220/9headstreet.jpg)
**************************************************
And as for not liking London, why did he and Brett Collins set up home without any hesitation at Sheila's former Flat 2, Morshead Mansions in Maida Vale so soon after the murders?
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Myster try walking to the pub it's minutes away
Maybe Jeremy wanted to get away from the scene of the murders if he was innocent
Anything to say on Jeremy's alleged hatred of farming?
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Can you put a link up please?
I think Jackie means this one... http://jeremybambercampaigner.blogspot.co.uk/2013_02_01_archive.html (http://jeremybambercampaigner.blogspot.co.uk/2013_02_01_archive.html)
Good grief, who on EARTH writes that crap?
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Myster try walking to the pub it's minutes away
Maybe Jeremy wanted to get away from the scene of the murders if he was innocent
Anything to say on Jeremy's alleged hatred of farming?
So moving into the flat in London, travelling first class to Amsterdam searching for the best quality cannabis (£100 a throw) while at the same time staying in the five * Hotel de l'Europe, eating a de-luxe dinner in one of the most exclusive restaurants, escaping to and living it up in St Tropez for three or four weeks, spending money like it was going out of fashion.... do you honestly think this is the sort of behaviour that a truly grieving son, brother and uncle would display?
Whatever my view on his attitude to farming, it'll be totally opposite to yours Jackie!
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Unbelievable Shona what an embarrassment.
I don't think there is anything lighthearted about this case
What's going on with these MOJ blogs
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Myster if you bothered to read my posts you will see I am trying to sort facts from speculation
There is NO evidence Jeremy wanted to live in London ESPECIALLY when it is clear to see he enjoyed farming.
Jeremy certainly would not have travelled to the other side of the world to get a job farming if he hated it
You either enjoy working outside or you don't
Personally I believe Jeremy behaved very badly after the murders but it appears there could have some influence from the mysterious Brett Collins
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Myster if you bothered to read my posts you will see I am trying to sort facts from speculation
There is NO evidence Jeremy wanted to live in London ESPECIALLY when it is clear to see he enjoyed farming.
Jeremy certainly would not have travelled to the other side of the world to get a job farming if he hated it
You either enjoy working outside or you don't
Personally I believe Jeremy behaved very badly after the murders but it appears there could have some influence from the mysterious Brett Collins
Those are FACTS... Julie Mugford and Brett Collins were fully interviewed about the escapades abroad... there is no evidence that Jeremy Bamber didn't want to live in London either (or does moving into Sheila's flat not count), and you only have his word that he enjoyed farming. Was it not a fact that he stole £1000 from the Osea office and tried to pass it off as a warning to the family about poor security... if he could lie about that, why not about his 'love' of farming?
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John I believe a lot of things that have been said about Jeremy have been fed to us by the media like the fabricated porche (that never was) story, that's why I would like you to have the opportunity to ask him questions directly or to his face.
Regarding 'fictitious' talk about the Porsche, it's all there in the Documents Library, Jackie... if you'd take the time to look and study.
A section from the 1986 court transcript of the evidence of PC Stephen John Myall examined by Mr. Arlidge....,
(http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6946/stephenmyallcourttransc.jpg)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=167.0 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=167.0)
Exactly, not a kit car but a real Porsche...was this really the only thing Jeremy was interested in after being told that his parents, sister and his twin 6-year-old nephews were all dead?
(http://i.imgur.com/ySQcCIq.jpg)
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John
The garage was visited by the police and it was a kit car
What does the police officer mean not directly???
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Myster I am glad you have accepted the fact we or you have no idea if Jeremy intended to live in London or not
Stealing from a caravan park a £1000 does not make a mass murderer
Maybe Mugford encouraged Jeremy because of 'the kicks' she got after robbing all the Oxford street as before that I don't believe he had been accused of stealing anything
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Myster I am glad you have accepted the fact we or you have no idea if Jeremy intended to live in London or not
Stealing from a caravan park a £1000 does not make a mass murderer
Maybe Mugford encouraged Jeremy because of 'the kicks' she got after robbing all the Oxford street as before that I don't believe he had been accused of stealing anything
No but such conduct towards his family is beneath contempt or don't you agree Jack?
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I agree with you John
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Myster I am glad you have accepted the fact we or you have no idea if Jeremy intended to live in London or not
Stealing from a caravan park a £1000 does not make a mass murderer
Maybe Mugford encouraged Jeremy because of 'the kicks' she got after robbing all the Oxford street as before that I don't believe he had been accused of stealing anything
However, it does show that he a) has form as a liar, b) has form in committing a crime and making it look like it was done by someone else and c) has contempt for his family that is ultimately proved in the way he would callously kill them later.
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Why is it so difficult to accept he liked farming.
He did it here and he did it abroad and it's not such a bad job?
Unless its another reason to say why he killed his family?
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You feel it is speculation that he hated farming. Yet you are speculating that he loved it with no evidence (other than his own words) Just in case you haven't realised this important fact yet (it seems pretty clear that you may not have considered this) but when Jeremy told you he was innocent, he might have been lying. And when he told you that he loved farming, he loved his sister etc, he may also have been lying. Because he wants to get out of jail.
If he was involved in farming in Australia it doesn't necessarily mean he liked it. He may have been knowledgeable about it and good at it, plus it may have paid well. We often do jobs we are good at without actually liking them.
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Goatboy I am trying to make a point.
It has been stated on here Jeremy hated farming and left working at WHF to go 'diving'
This is untrue
He worked and he worked farming
Unless you put Jeremy on a lie detector you believe in and ask him the question we will never know
But going by what we do know it looks like out of all the jobs he could choose overseas he chose farming and wasn't just diving?
As I have said before I would like John to have the opportunity to ask Jeremy these questions himself
Anyone trying to put across the fact that Jeremy hated farming when it might be a complete fabrication is trying to make it look like a reason Jeremy killed his family. Personally I need a lot more than something fabricated to add to the reason why Jeremy might have killed his family
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By the way Goatboy I have NEVER asked Jeremy if he is innocent or not because I think it's obvious what his reply would
I am still working my way through facts and speculation, which is an endless task
I might even ring the porche garage myself if its still there to get an exact answer re the 'Porsche' theories
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By the way Goatboy I have NEVER asked Jeremy if he is innocent or not because I think it's obvious what his reply would
I am still working my way through facts and speculation, which is an endless task
I might even ring the porche garage myself if its still there to get an exact answer re the 'Porsche' theories
You will never get an answer to this Jackie. Even if Jeremy visited a Porsche showroom he could very well have enquired about a Porsche look-a-like as well. I did the same many years ago so I know what you are saying is most probably at least partly true. It makes no difference in any event as far as I can see.
Jeremy was very much money orientated and there is no getting away from it. Even if you only believe a part of what Julie had to say about him there is no getting away from it Jack that Jeremy had a hunger for wealth.
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John
The garage was visited by the police and it was a kit car
What does the police officer mean not directly???
I've read that it was a kit car costing 1 - 2k. Whether it was or it wasn't what does it prove? Here's a pic of the kit car. Nice colour. Lol typical girly 8**8:/:
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Here's one of the booty
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Nice clean lines 8(>(( I think its based on a Beetle. Haha I must sound like a petrol head @)(++(*
I've read the appeal document from 2002. The defence had this proposed Porsche purchase as a point to contest but I think it was seen as so insignificant it didn't actually make it to the appeal court judges.
I believe the police confirmed Jeremy had made enquiries about a kit car but as another poster said who's to say Jeremy wasn't eyeing up the real McCoy 8-)(--)
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I have no doubt he looked at both the genuine article and the kit car. I did the exact same in the 1985 era but ended up buying a Fiesta 1300s. @)(++(*
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Hi Holly the importance of the porche story is that if it was a porche kit car (which I am 99% sure it was) and not a real porche it was a deliberate attempt to make Jeremy look like he planned to come in a huge amount of money hence killing his whole family
Why anyone would believe Jeremy would tell a policeman he was planning to buy a vastly expensive car when he had just murdered his family is beyond me
Holly it's just like the Jeremy hated farming story? No proof of this at all
Another reason to make it look like Jeremy murdered his family because he hated farming?
I will you another example of this behaviour
In one of Ann Eatons signed statements she quotes in Nanny Speakmans bedroom she thinks there were photos of every member of the family except Jeremy
If she is not sure why even say something like that?
Nanny Speakman obviously did not hate Jeremy because he was clearly in her will
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A good theory of why Neville would ring Jeremy first instead of the police when Sheila was running around with a gun is Neville might have hoped Jeremy could calm Sheila down because with Sheila's mental health problems if the social services had heard about the gun incident the likelihood is Sheila could probably have lost custody of her children and Neville would not have had such easy access to his only grandchildren
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A good theory of why Neville would ring Jeremy first instead of the police when Sheila was running around with a gun is Neville might have hoped Jeremy could calm Sheila down because with Sheila's mental health problems if the social services had heard about the gun incident the likelihood is Sheila could probably have lost custody of her children and Neville would not have had such easy access to his only grandchildren
She didn't have custody, Colin did. 8)-)))
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I meant lose access to the twins altogether. I think social services would take Sheila running amok with a gun even if she hasn't fired it as the last straw
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I meant lose access to the twins altogether. I think social services would take Sheila running amok with a gun even if she hasn't fired it as the last straw
I agree with what you say Jack, but Sheila had great respect for her father and I don't believe for a minute that she would have harmed him.
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I meant lose access to the twins altogether. I think social services would take Sheila running amok with a gun even if she hasn't fired it as the last straw
I agree with what you say Jack, but Sheila had great respect for her father and I don't believe for a minute that she would have harmed him.
Hello all 8**8:/:
Nevill always provided a calming influence with Sheila so I find it very hard to believe she would ever have kicked of while at the farm. Colin left her and the twins off and on the best of terms, he spoke positively of them having some sort of future together.
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I meant lose access to the twins altogether. I think social services would take Sheila running amok with a gun even if she hasn't fired it as the last straw
She would never loose access to them altogether Jackie. Sheila had an illness and it was under control thanks to medication so are you to deprive every mother of their children permanently cause of some moment of weakness?
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A good theory of why Neville would ring Jeremy first instead of the police when Sheila was running around with a gun is Neville might have hoped Jeremy could calm Sheila down because with Sheila's mental health problems if the social services had heard about the gun incident the likelihood is Sheila could probably have lost custody of her children and Neville would not have had such easy access to his only grandchildren
What a load of $@#%*! ... the last thing Nevill would be thinking about if Sheila was running amok with a loaded rifle is, "If I ring Jeremy and don't involve the police this won't get passed on from them to Social Services, who'll then whisk the boys away from Sheila !!!".
First, he'd overpower her, then disarm her if he'd not already been shot, and if he had been shot blood would be all over the phone if he ever got to use it (which he didn't).
Do you skim over my posts, Jackie?
And you forget Colin Caffell had joint custody and they would have to take custody away from him!... he'd been looking after them as well you know.
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A good theory of why Neville would ring Jeremy first instead of the police when Sheila was running around with a gun is Neville might have hoped Jeremy could calm Sheila down because with Sheila's mental health problems if the social services had heard about the gun incident the likelihood is Sheila could probably have lost custody of her children and Neville would not have had such easy access to his only grandchildren
Hello Jackie. I'm new here and I've been reading through some of the back posts and it appears that you are in a minority here insofar as you believe Jeremy Bamber to be innocent. At the moment I'm undecided. Is it possible that you can just give me some bullet points as to why you believe Jeremy to be innocent.
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Holly these are my reasons why I PERSONALLY believe there is reasonable doubt in this case.
Jeremy Bamber had NO history of being violent, he was known not to like blood sports. I have had contact with people he went to school with who know Jeremy's character and believe him to be innocent.
He was not bought up in a violent home.
Julie Mugford chief prosecution witness and someone who personally benefitted from Jeremy's conviction had a history of lies and deceit and even admitted saying to Jeremy 'if I can't have you nobody can'.
Julie Mugford only went to the police to say Jeremy was guilty straight after the relationship broke down.
There is not one piece of actual evidence that proves anything Julie said about Jeremy being guilty is true
Vital evidence that could have been further forensically tested has been destroyed by the police when they were told pacifically not to destroy anything in what is one of the country's most infamous murder cases
File one which relates to the time police believed it was a murder suicide has been witheld from the defence right up until today
The relatives who gained financially from Jeremy's convictions made many statements which were a deliberate attempt to blacken Jeremy's name with no actual truth to them
David Boutflour 'forgot' when giving evidence Sheila had been with the family on shooting holidays
At the time of Jeremy's conviction little was known about Sheila's illness but there has been many more cases just like Sheila, mothers who kill there children
Anti Bambers make much of Sheila being in a clean condition when found but there was a bucket of bloodied clothes found at WHF that was not taken by police or tested
Sheila had asked her husband for a reconciliation on their last journey to WHF but he rejected her saying he was with someone else
The CCRC abruptly shut down Jeremy's application to appeal not long after Simon McKay had been appointed as a new lawyer when Simon McKay was in the middle of vital tests that could have proved Jeremy was innocent.
Up until Simons appointment Jeremy was told he could have as long as he liked to make his submissions
When Jeremy was first told by the police all his family were dead his instant reaction was to blame the police and say they were responsible as he believed there had been movement in WHF when he was watching the house with the police. If he had wanted to put the blame on Sheila why would he say this.
The Rifle
The gun used to carry out the shootings at White House Farm was a .22 Anshuttz rifle. This rifle fires a small bullet about the size of a fingernail. There were many guns at the farm, totalling 7 if Anthony Pargeter’s bolt action rifle was also present, these included 12 bore shotguns and .410’s, most of which were kept in the cupboard under the stairs and in the downstairs toilet, although a shotgun was also found upstairs in the office and another found in the downstairs office. The rifle in question had not long been purchased by Nevill Bamber and was licensed in his name. Jeremy on the other hand did not own a gun or a license, though he would use Nevill’s rifle’s around the farm to shoot vermin.
Jeremy said that after he had an aborted mission to shoot rabbits that evening, he left the .22 Anshuttz rifle on the settle in the kitchen, he also left some ammunition and magazines out. For those who know very little about guns, this particular rifle is loaded by putting the bullets into a ‘magazine.’ The rifle was what is known as ‘self loading,’ this means that once you load the magazine into the rifle you can keep firing the gun easily over and over until the magazine is empty. The rifle had discharged 26 bullets to kill the family, as a magazine holds 10 bullets, this means it would have been loaded up to three times by Sheila, although Jeremy had already loaded one magazine and left it out on the side.
It has been postulated by the prosecution that it would have been difficult for Sheila to load and fire the weapon. Most of us do not realize exactly how easy the gun was to fire, and that it could be fired accurately at close range. All the deceased were shot within less than 4 feet. The picture to the right is a photograph of the actual gun which Sheila used to kill the family.
The DNA Evidence That Never Was
Most would agree that the only irrefutable proof you could present in the case of convicting someone of murder is that of DNA evidence. Jeremy Bamber has been imprisoned since 1985 yet no DNA or forensic evidence links him to his supposed crimes. The closest the prosecution came was a small flake of blood, found inside a sound moderator that they alleged belonged to Jeremy’s sister – ruling her out as the killer. The jury couldn’t make a unanimous verdict and asked to hear the evidence of blood in the moderator again then they convicted Jeremy by a 10 to 2 majority. This page devastatingly undermines the prosecution’s case by detailing how forensics from three different sound moderators were patched together by police and presented to the jury as findings from one exhibit.
The 2002 Appeal and the mystery of blood in the sound moderator
by J, Bamber and J, Martin-Adams, last updated 25.01.13
Part of the prosecution case against Jeremy Bamber at his trial in 1986 involved the claim that a blood flake discovered inside a sound moderator must have originated from Sheila Caffell. Supposedly, the existence of this blood meant that the sound moderator must have been attached to the rifle when the murders were carried out. However, because the moderator was later discovered in the gun cupboard, Sheila could not have committed suicide with it still attached. It is, of course, as the judge put it, ‘inconceivable’ that she could have shot herself and then unscrewed the moderator and put it away.
However, the argument concerning Sheila’s blood was undermined seriously by tests carried out prior to the 2002 appeal,
Laboratory Testing
which involved DNA testing which was not available in 1985. These tests cast doubt on the claim that Sheila’s blood had ever been present inside the moderator, prompting the Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC) to make a referral to the Court of Appeal during their 2001 investigation.
Background – the significance of the AK enzyme
Human blood is made up of a number of different constituents including red and white blood cells, plasma, and a number of different enzymes. In forensic science, some of these enzymes are used to make the distinction between blood samples from one person and blood samples from another. One example is the AK enzyme, which would become important in the case of Jeremy Bamber.
Human beings have two types of AK enzyme, namely, AK1 and AK2-1[1]. The blood flake discovered inside the sound moderator was analyzed and found to contain the AK1 enzyme, meaning that it could not have originated from June Bamber, whose blood contained AK2-1[2]. The blood of the other deceased family members – Nevill Bamber, Daniel Caffell and Nicholas Caffell – belonged to the AK-1 grouping. David Boutflour and Ann Eaton (the children of Robert and Pamela Boutflour) also shared the AK1 grouping: both handled Nevill Bamber’s sound moderator (DB/1) before giving it to Essex Police[3]. Sheila Caffell’s enzyme blood grouping was A, PGM 1 +, EAP BA, AK1, HP2-1: an identical match to Robert Boutflour, Jeremy’s uncle though marriage to his mother’s sister, Pamela Speakman. Both Robert and Pamela were primary beneficiaries of the estate upon the conviction of Jeremy Bamber[4].
At the 1986 trial, the Court was told that the discovery of the AK-1 enzyme constituted clear evidence that the blood flake found inside the sound moderator came from Sheila Caffell[5]. What the Court was not told was that the AK-1 enzyme found in human blood is genetically identical to the AK-1 enzyme found in the blood of pigs, cattle, rabbits, chickens and carp[6]. The rifle and the sound moderators were used to shoot game and could have been carried alongside rabbits when returning from a shoot. Had the Court been informed that two types of animal blood were found on the outer surface of the first sound moderator (SBJ/1)[7], perhaps the discovery of the AK-1 enzyme would have been attributed to animal, rather than human, blood. Given that this discovery was not disclosed until after the 2002 Appeal[8], the Court was denied the opportunity to consider the significance of this information during the 1986 trial.
The 2002 Appeal
Police records confirm that a total of three Parker Hale MM1-type sound moderators (SBJ/1; DB/1 and DRB/1) were seized by Essex Police in 1985. In preparation for the 2002 appeal, tests were carried out on one of the three moderators[9] to analyse DNA on the internal baffle plates. It is not known which of three was examined for the appeal[10]. The fact that all three moderators were mixed up and mislabelled by Essex Police caused confusion for many years, but it has now become clear which of the three was kept by the police after the trial, and which were returned to Jeremy’s cousins, Anthony Pargeter and David Boutflour.
The sound moderator retained by Essex Police was DNA tested by forensic experts working for the Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC) in 2001, revealing both male and female DNA on the internal baffle plates. The female DNA turned out to be a perfect match for June Bamber[11], even though her blood grouping of AK2-1 was not found inside the moderator in 1986. The results confirmed that the male DNA was not a match for Jeremy Bamber.
Giving a DNA Sample
The prosecution team tried to establish whether the sound moderator contained DNA matching Jeremy’s relatives, including David Boutflour, Robert Boutflour, Peter Eaton and Anthony Pargeter, all of whom had handled one or more of the sound moderators. With the exception of Anthony Pargeter, there is no evidence to suggest that the other male relatives agreed to provide DNA samples to be checked against the male DNA found inside the moderator[12].
At the 2002 appeal, the prosecution’s forensic experts conceded that the Crown could no longer rely on Sheila’s blood ever having been inside the sound moderator[13]. However, Mark Webster, a forensic scientist called to give evidence by the defence, argued that because the DNA found on the sound moderator could not be attributed to blood, it remains possible that the blood that was originally present on the internal baffle plates had been completely swabbed off during earlier testing, and that the DNA from June Bamber and the unknown male may have been nothing more than accidental cross-contamination[14]. In other words, the absence of Sheila’s DNA did not mean that her blood had never been present inside the sound moderator.
Obtaining Blood from a Flake
Although Mark Webster had been called to give evidence on behalf of the defence, his testimony completely undermined the argument of the defence that Sheila’s blood had never been on the sound moderator’s baffle plates, and accordingly, the appeal judges dismissed this ground of appeal based upon Mr Webster’s evidence[15]. Ironically, had Jeremy’s defence lawyers not called Mr Webster to give evidence, the appeal judges would probably have accepted the evidence given by the prosecution’s forensic experts and the appeal against conviction might have been granted.
The three sound moderators
The courts have never been presented with evidence that Essex Police actually seized three sound moderators during the original investigation. Recently disclosed evidence shows that Essex Police seized one moderator from the gun cupboard on 7 August 1985 (SBJ/1)[16]. David Boutflour discovered Nevill Bamber’s sound moderator (DB/1) on 10 August 1985, which was handed to the police by Peter and Ann Eaton on 11 September 1985[17]. David Boutflour handed in his own sound moderator (DRB/1) shortly after 25 September 1985, and this was returned to him on 20 May 1988[18]. Essex Police submitted two of these sound moderators (SBJ/1 and DRB/1) for forensic analysis, yet it was concluded that the blood, paint and DNA findings all related to one sound moderator. Although the recently unearthed evidence confirms that the results relate to two separate sound moderators[19], Essex Police somehow combined all of the forensic findings from two identical sound moderators to make the case that only one moderator was examined at Huntingdon Forensic Laboratory. At the 1986 trial, the combined evidence from SBJ/1 and DB/1 was presented as being from DRB/1, which, ironically, was the only sound moderator which had not been subject to forensic examination[20].
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Another very sad case of a very ill women killing her child
A mentally ill mum killed the daughter she loved because she believed she was being ‘persecuted by their neighbours’, a court heard.
Chantelle Blake, 32, thought she was ‘protecting’ four-year-old Kaiya when she smothered her at the home they shared in Moss Side, Manchester Crown Court heard.
The child’s death was discovered days later, on September 22 last year, after Blake went to hospital after self-harming.
Asked why she had injured herself, she said ‘because I killed my daughter’, in what the court heard was a ‘remarkably matter of fact way’.
At the time, she was carrying a child’s suitcase containing the knife she had used to cut her own arms and ankles.
Police broke down the door of Blake’s neat maisonette at Garthorne Close, where pictures of Kaiya were displayed, and found the child lying in a bed.
Blake, who has been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, has now been detained under the Mental Health Act after admitting manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility.
The court heard that Blake was a caring and hard-working mum who ‘bitterly regretted’ what she had done, but did not accept that she was mentally ill.
Graham Reeds QC, prosecuting, told court that the ‘first signs’ of Miss Blake’s deterioration into ‘delusional and psychotic’ behaviour began in 2009.
In July of that year she was with Kaiya when she approached a police officer complaining of ‘domestic disharmony’.
Her ‘edgy and unpredictable’ behaviour so concerned the officer that he took her to hospital, but after psychiatric assessments it wasn’t felt that further treatment could be justified at the time.
A year later, the child’s father, who was based in Tobago but was committed to his young family, told Chantelle he couldn’t visit Manchester as planned.
He noticed a ‘change’ in her during the conversation, the court heard, with Blake convinced ‘there were those who wished her daughter harm’. Around the same time Blake was cautioned for assaulting Kaiya outside Poundstretcher in Hulme, apparently in the misguided belief she was protecting her.
In the months before Kaiya’s death Blake continued to deteriorate and an assessment was done to see whether or not she could cope during which time they were apart.
The mother and child were reunited, but the separation ‘seems to have been the catalyst for the acceleration of her delusional behaviour’, Mr Reeds said.
Judy Khan QC defending, told court: "Miss Blake does not accept presently that she is mentally ill, but she does accept that she was not in her right mind at the time of the killing her daughter. She maintains that she and her daughter were persecuted by their neighbours and she was not and never has suffered from delusions or hallucinations.
"She maintains that whatever the situation was with all those external factors she made a grave error in killing her daughter. She will bitterly regret it for the rest of her life. She did what she did out of love and fear and in a desire to protect her daughter as she felt there was nobody she could turn to and nobody who was on her side."
Miss Khan added that Blake had genuinely suffered ‘harassment’ in the build-up to Kaiya’s death.
The court heard that forensic psychiatrists were in agreement that Blake was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia. As a result was made subject to a hospital order under section 37 of the Mental Health Act, with a restriction under section 41 of the Mental Health Act.
The order is designed to allow for her treatment and prevent the risk of serious harm to the public. It means Blake cannot be discharged without consideration by a mental health tribunal or the Ministry of Justice.
Sentencing, Mr Justice McKay told her "The day you ended your daughter’s life will, I’m sure, be with you for ever. I have to ask you to understand that the purpose of this court as a result of that is not to punish you, I fully accept that you did what you did out of your love for and concern for Kaiya.
"It is the case however that your mental functioning at the time of her death was abnormal, you were thinking a distorted and deluded way, you genuinely believed you were acting to protect your daughter from harm from persons who wished her ill."
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Jack, a mentally ill woman doesnt make Bamber innocent. I could introduce you to hundreds of mentally ill women who havent killed their children.
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Andrea I totally agree with you but it does happen.
I do not believe any mother would ever harm her children or kill her children unless she was very very ill
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Short extracts taken from the longer summary listed further below
'30-40% of diagnosed schizophrenics attempt suicide and the use of cannabis can prolong and exacerbate the symptoms of mental illness. '
' It has been recorded that approximately 30-40% of diagnosed schizophrenics attempt suicide at some point during their lifetime and one in ten of these will succeed in taking their own lives[5]. It has also been established that people between the ages of 16-30 are more vulnerable to developing psychosis[6]. It is also within this age range that people are more likely to use cannabis[7]. '
'Sheila Caffell’s mental health issues prob
Social Services Noted Concerns
ably surfaced initially in 1981 when social workers reported injuries to her twin sons, and she was described as forgetful and disorganized' '
' Sheila was admitted as an in-patient to St. Andrews Hospital, Northampton in August 1983 following an acute breakdown[20]. During the course of her treatment, she was observed to display a number of classic ‘textbook’ delusions associated with paranoid schizophrenia, Dr Ferguson detailed that she had been in state of acute psychosis and had been for about two weeks[21]. These included religious delusions about being given the responsibility of ridding the world of evil, delusions about her children being ‘the devil’s children‘, and references to incestuous sex with her son's whom she described as 'the devil's children.'[22] '
' In March 1985, Sheila was again admitted to St Andrews Hospital following a severe psychotic episode [27]. She had suffered violent outbursts, one of which was witnessed by a friend who was left traumatised by the event[28]. During a stay of only three weeks, Sheila admitted to having used cocaine frequently[29]. It appears that Dr Ferguson did not raise the issues about Sheila harming her children because of client confidentiality. Despite the fact that Nevill was paying for the treatment, Sheila was the patient. It is also important to remember that Sheila was an 'informal' patient; that is, she was not subject to a 'section' under the Mental Health Act 1983. Therefore she was advised about her treatment but could not be legally required to comply '
' In July 1985, Sheila requested that her dose of Haloperidol be reduced. Her GP, Dr Angeloglou, contacted Dr Ferguson to discuss this for reasons unknown, but it is possible that Sheila had experienced some of the aforementioned side effects. The reduction of her dose from 200mg to 100 mg is the kind of sudden reduction which is potentially very dangerous as it may have caused severe withdrawal symptoms or even a return of the original condition, in addition to this because she was due another injection any side effects would have completely diminished[36] '
________________________
Sheila Caffell's Mental Health and the Use of Illegal Drugs
Not enough credence is given to the link between Sheila Caffell’s mental illness and her use of Cannabis and other illegal drugs. For instance 30-40% of diagnosed schizophrenics attempt suicide and the use of cannabis can prolong and exacerbate the symptoms of mental illness. Medical assessments showed Sheila Caffell displayed “textbook” delusions associated with schizophrenia, yet her state of mind and its role in the murders was constantly overlooked. Advances over the years have shown the link not only exists but also that it is wholly destructive - this comprehensive review reveals the devastating detail.
The Case of Sheila Caffell: The Effects of Illegal Drugs on People with Schizophrenia. Last updated 20.01.13
Original material by T, Whitefoot; additions by L, Lake; J, Martin-Adams; P, A, Miller.
In the early hours of 7 August 1985, five people were shot to death at White House Farm: Sheila Caffell, her twin six year old boys, and her adoptive parents, June and Nevill Bamber. Initially, Essex police believed that Sheila carried out the shootings and then committed suicide[1]. However, in the weeks that followed, that view changed and Jeremy Bamber, Sheila’s brother (also adopted, but no blood relation), was arrested and later convicted for the murders of Sheila, Nevill, June and the twins. He has since served twenty-seven years in prison for a crime which he did not commit. The purpose of this article is to explain the link between schizophrenia and cannabis and to show how Sheila Caffell’s collapsing mental health caused her to suffer a psychotic episode which resulted in the murder of her family.
Schizophrenia is a mental disorder characterised by a disintegration of the thought process, and a breakdown of
Sheila Caffell
emotional responses[2]. Most commonly, the disorder manifests itself in the form of paranoid or bizarre delusions, auditory hallucinations and/or disorganised, incoherent speech and thinking. It is believed that genetics can sometimes play a role in predisposing a person to develop the illness, but other causal factors, such as a history of mental illness and/or abuse of drugs and alcohol, have also been discussed[3]. There is no laboratory test to determine schizophrenia[4]; a diagnosis is made based on the patient’s self- reported symptoms, and a clinical assessment. It has been recorded that approximately 30-40% of diagnosed schizophrenics attempt suicide at some point during their lifetime and one in ten of these will succeed in taking their own lives[5]. It has also been established that people between the ages of 16-30 are more vulnerable to developing psychosis[6]. It is also within this age range that people are more likely to use cannabis[7].
Sheila also took Cocaine
In recent years, a great deal of research has been conducted[8] in order establish a link between schizophrenia and the effects of cannabis and other recreational drugs. Over thirty clinical studies have taken place over the past twenty years, mostly in the UK, Sweden and Australia. It is now widely believed that using cannabis can prolong the symptoms of mental illness and impede a patient’s chances of recovering from a psychotic episode[9]. If a patient has already developed schizophrenic symptoms, the continuing use of cannabis and other substances, such as alcohol or amphetamines, is believed to have a detrimental effect on their illness[10]. Set out below are two examples of the research that has been conducted so far.
1. The authors of a study published in the American Journal of Psychiatry in May 2010 conducted a study over a period of ten years. Patients were examined during the initial first period of psychiatric hospitalisation and then six months later, and then two years, four years and, finally, ten years later. At each assessment patients were rated on their psychiatric symptoms and their use of cannabis. The study concluded that cannabis use is associated with an adverse course of psychotic symptoms found in schizophrenia sufferers[11].
Cannabis Smoking
2. In a study conducted at the Zucker Hillside Hospital in New York, researchers used a special kind of Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) known as Diffusion Tensor Imaging (DTI) to measure the motion of water molecules which can indicate microscopic abnormalities in the brain. The test group included adolescents with and without schizophrenia, and adolescent users and non-users of cannabis. The MRI imaging revealed that heavy users of cannabis were found to have the type of abnormalities found in certain areas of the brain which are also found in the brains of subjects with schizophrenia[12]. These abnormalities were most pronounced in subjects with schizophrenia who were also regular users of cannabis[13]. The abnormalities occur in a pathway of the brain which is related to auditory and language functions which undergoes development during adolescence. The research suggested that if an adolescent is genetically predisposed to develop schizophrenia, the use of cannabis can cause the same type of damage to the brain’s pathway that is caused by schizophrenia Put more simply, regular and prolonged use of cannabis could kick-start the development of schizophrenia where it might otherwise not have developed at all, or cause an earlier onset of the illness, and/or cause the condition to worsen [14].
Sheila Caffell’s mental health issues prob
Social Services Noted Concerns
ably surfaced initially in 1981 when social workers reported injuries to her twin sons, and she was described as forgetful and disorganized.[15] She was referred for psychiatric treatment to Dr Ferguson in 1983, but she had been suffering from depression for eighteen months or so previously[16]. She was diagnosed as suffering from paranoid schizophrenia[17]. In addition to cannabis, she was also reported to have used other recreational drugs on occasion, such as cocaine and amphetamine[18]. Having divorced her husband Colin Caffell twelve months earlier, she was believed to have acquired considerable debts in support of her drug addiction[19].
St Andrew Mental Health Hospital
Sheila was admitted as an in-patient to St. Andrews Hospital, Northampton in August 1983 following an acute breakdown[20]. During the course of her treatment, she was observed to display a number of classic ‘textbook’ delusions associated with paranoid schizophrenia, Dr Ferguson detailed that she had been in state of acute psychosis and had been for about two weeks[21]. These included religious delusions about being given the responsibility of ridding the world of evil, delusions about her children being ‘the devil’s children‘, and references to incestuous sex with her son's whom she described as 'the devil's children.'[22].
When she was discharged one month later, having made only a partial recovery[23], Sheila had been prescribed Stelazine[24], an anti-psychotic drug which is typically the first line of defence in the treatment of schizophrenia[25]. People with schizophrenia are usually found to have high levels of dopamine activity[26]. Stelazine works by blocking dopamine receptors in the brain, thus alleviating or minimising schizophrenic symptoms of delusions, hallucinations and disorganised thought or speech. Common side effects of Stelazine are nausea, headaches, dizziness, menstrual irregularities and agitation. Major side effects are lowered life span, dyskinisia and akathisia (see glossary below).
In March 1985, Sheila was again admitted to St Andrews Hospital following a severe psychotic episode [27]. She had suffered violent outbursts, one of which was witnessed by a friend who was left traumatised by the event[28]. During a stay of only three weeks, Sheila admitted to having used cocaine frequently[29]. It appears that Dr Ferguson did not raise the issues about Sheila harming her children because of client confidentiality. Despite the fact that Nevill was paying for the treatment, Sheila was the patient. It is also important to remember that Sheila was an 'informal' patient; that is, she was not subject to a 'section' under the Mental Health Act 1983. Therefore she was advised about her treatment but could not be legally required to comply. This undoubtedly had far reaching implications.[29a] At this time, Sheila was prescribed three kinds of medication: [30].
Anafranil - is a brand name of the chemical called Clomipramine. A tri-cyclic anti-depressant used a lot in the 1980s
Anafranil Capsules
when it was considered to be very successful in treatment depression. It typically takes 2 – 3 weeks to become effective. Caution is always required as suicide is always possible for a depressed or a disturbed patient. Side effects include confusion, agitation, insomnia and nightmares[31];
Haloperidol is the chemical name which is typically branded as Serance in the UK - a very strong anti-psychotic drug with sedative qualities. It is noted as being the most common neuroleptic associated with extra-pyramidal symptoms[32]. Clinical trials have shown that a medium to high dose of Haloperidol for a two-week period dramatically increased the dopamine activity up to 98%[33]. Long term effect is not known, but severe dyskinesia is indicated, and long-term, high-dose treatment may result in depression severe enough to result in suicide[34];
Procyclidine - often branded as Kemodrin used to counteract the effects of anti-psychotic medications. Known side effects include agitation, confusion and insomnia[35].
Additionally, there is the issue of non-compliance. It is well known that patients who are required to self-medicate will often fail to take prescribed medication for two main reasons: one is that they do not believe they are ill and therefore believe the medication is un-necessary; the second is the result of the side-effects which many individuals find to be so extreme that they would prefer to tolerate their symptoms.[35a]
In July 1985, Sheila requested that her dose of Haloperidol be reduced. Her GP, Dr Angeloglou, contacted Dr Ferguson to discuss this for reasons unknown, but it is possible that Sheila had experienced some of the aforementioned side effects. The reduction of her dose from 200mg to 100 mg is the kind of sudden reduction which is potentially very dangerous as it may have caused severe withdrawal symptoms or even a return of the original condition, in addition to this because she was due another injection any side effects would have completely diminished[36].
Sheila Caffell
At the family dinner which took place at White House Farm on the night of the murders, the subject of Sheila’s twin boys being put into foster care was raised[37]. Sheila’s psychiatrist stated that the effect of this news would have been ‘catastrophic’, and may well have been the trigger for a psychotic episode[38]. Her post-mortem results showed no trace of Anafranil, but cannabis and Haloperidol were found[39]. Failure to take some of her medication would have been exacerbated by the ingestion of cannabis and also the sudden reduction of her Haliperidol - could have caused her already fragile mental health to crumble completely.
In 1985, the public and the police were perhaps reluctant to believe that a young mother could murder her own family with such brutality. In the twenty-first century, reports of women committing violent crime, including murdering one's own children before suicide, or attempted suicide - are well documented in the media. The outcome of Jeremy Bamber’s trial may well have been different had it taken place more recently, and if the jury been made aware of research into the links between cannabis and schizophrenia. In fact, highly likely that Sheila Caffell’s life would have been saved had the advances made in understanding schizophrenia and its treatment been available in 1985.
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Jackie, only one person knows what was discussed at the dinner table the night before the murders at White House farm and that person is Jeremy Bamber. He could say just about anything and nobody would be any the wiser.
We will never know if the twins were discussed just as we will never know whether Sheila was going to return home and live at Goldhanger. There is no basis for any of this discussion as it is pure speculation.
The only thing we know for sure is that Pamela spoke to Sheila on the phone before speaking to June and reported that Sheila was quiet and subdued, not exactly the vision of a mentally disturbed young woman in a rage who could have killed her family as you like to portray?
Best keep to the facts Jackie. 8(0(*
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Jackie, how do you think Sheila managed to carry out her killing spree without displaying any forensic link, i.e. blood staining etc?
You obviously don't believe that there was enough evidence to convict Jeremy. But answer honestly, if you had to bet your last penny on who did it, who would you back?
You are obviously an intelligent woman, so surely, based on the few facts that we do know, you would have to concede that in all probability, Jeremy committed these murders rather than Shelia.
I wonder if you have a deep rooted mistrust of those in authority, as well as a tendency to 'back the underdog'.
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The fact is whoever committed the murders made a pretty good job of making themselves forensically clean, be it Sheila or Jeremy. Ask yourself this question, who had more of an incentive to make themselves forensically clean following the murders? Jeremy or Sheila? Would someone having a psychotic episode have the presence of mind to clean up so well? Who had more of an incentive to stop Nevill reaching the phone? What did Sheila have to lose by letting him get to the phone? She was going to kill herself anyway and would be long dead before the police had time to arrive.
Jackie stating Sheila took cocaine? What evidence is there for that? Hearsay surely! The fact is there were no traces of coke in her body.
Finally, the Bamber is innocent lot do bang on about Mugford's "if I can't have him no one will" statement. Don't forget that she willingly volunteered this information and that she had allegedly tried to smother him with a pillow. If she had anything to hide wouldn't she have kept this to herself? The fact is if she wanted to lie to incriminate him she should have made the lie better-ie Jeremy brazenly confessed to committing the murders himself. To me it sounds like she was just repeating what she was told.
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The fact is whoever committed the murders made a pretty good job of making themselves forensically clean, be it Sheila or Jeremy. Ask yourself this question, who had more of an incentive to make themselves forensically clean following the murders? Jeremy or Sheila? Would someone having a psychotic episode have the presence of mind to clean up so well? Who had more of an incentive to stop Nevill reaching the phone? What did Sheila have to lose by letting him get to the phone? She was going to kill herself anyway and would be long dead before the police had time to arrive.
Jackie stating Sheila took cocaine? What evidence is there for that? Hearsay surely! The fact is there were no traces of coke in her body.
Finally, the Bamber is innocent lot do bang on about Mugford's "if I can't have him no one will" statement. Don't forget that she willingly volunteered this information and that she had allegedly tried to smother him with a pillow. If she had anything to hide wouldn't she have kept this to herself? The fact is if she wanted to lie to incriminate him she should have made the lie better-ie Jeremy brazenly confessed to committing the murders himself. To me it sounds like she was just repeating what she was told.
We must stick to the facts and goatboy is spot on. When Dr Vanezis received Sheila's lab results back from Huntingdon they recorded a trace of Cannabis in her urine and a similar amount of the prescribed medication Haloperidol in her blood.
If Sheila had been a regular cocaine user it would have shown up on the tests.
In relation to Julie, I agree completely...she sung like a canary once she realised her future career as a teacher could very well be in jeopardy. Julie couldn't afford to tell pork pies at that stage and she knew it. The murder of five people must rank amongst the most serious of crimes and I am quite sure that the police laid it on the line for her. Cooperate or face charges as an accessory to murder!
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The significance of the bible found by Sheila's body and the significance of where the bible was left open???
Why has the owner of the fingerprints on the bible found by
Sheila NEVER been disclosed???
What possible reason could there be to WITHOLD this evidence
Sheila Caffell was found with an open Bible by her side. The pages were covered in bloodied fingerprints. Document's show the bible was tested and forensics were positive for prints, but the owner of the prints was never disclosed. Could this be because they were the bloodied fingerprints of Sheila Caffell?
Her Bible was found by her side, open at pages containing Psalms 51-55. Eminent theologian Susan Gillingham has prepared a report on the significance of these psalms, in relation to Sheila's mental state and religious mania. She says anyone who knew the psalms well would turn to them as a means of "expressing their own penitence at the evil within themselves and outrage at the evil words and actions performed against them by others".
Astonishingly, the bloodstained Bible was never produced at trial, despite repeated requests from Bamber's solicitor. So the jury was not aware of the significance of the psalms.
Photographs also showed a handwritten note sticking up from between the pages of the Bible. The words at the top of the note are "love one another" – the same words were written on a banner on a wall in a room in Jonestown, Guyana, where 909 people died in 1978 in a mass murder-suicide. But the evidential value of what was inside the Bible cannot now be gauged; Essex police have informed Bamber's lawyers that the note has been destroyed.
Hugh Ferguson, Sheila's psychiatrist, gave evidence at the trial. In a statement made in 2002, he says he was unaware that the Bible was open at the psalms at the time he gave evidence.
Having read them, he says, "they contain in them the themes which, over time, I knew were exercising Sheila Caffell. In short form, the struggle between good and evil, or God and the Devil."
Important Factors That Could Have Affected Sheila's State Of Mind The Day Of The Murders
Nor was Ferguson, or the jury, aware of another factor that may have influenced Sheila to carry out the killings.
At the trial, Bamber said his sister was upset at the prospect of losing her children,
***************************************
but the prosecution accused him of making this up.
***************************************
Last week, the Guardian was passed a letter, written by Sheila's ex-husband, Colin Caffell, to Nevill Bamber. In it, Caffell expresses deep concern about Sheila's mental state and asks his father-in law-to "try and convince Sheila that it would be better for her and the boys if they stayed with me most of the time".
Ferguson says if Nevill had pleaded Caffell's case to Sheila, it could have had a "potentially catastrophic effect on her".
As a result, he says, "she may have projected on to her father a concept of evil".
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Holly these are my reasons why I PERSONALLY believe there is reasonable doubt in this case.
Jeremy Bamber had NO history of being violent, he was known not to like blood sports. I have had contact with people he went to school with who know Jeremy's character and believe him to be innocent.
He was not bought up in a violent home.
Julie Mugford chief prosecution witness and someone who personally benefitted from Jeremy's conviction had a history of lies and deceit and even admitted saying to Jeremy 'if I can't have you nobody can'.
Julie Mugford only went to the police to say Jeremy was guilty straight after the relationship broke down.
There is not one piece of actual evidence that proves anything Julie said about Jeremy being guilty is true
Vital evidence that could have been further forensically tested has been destroyed by the police when they were told pacifically not to destroy anything in what is one of the country's most infamous murder cases
File one which relates to the time police believed it was a murder suicide has been witheld from the defence right up until today
The relatives who gained financially from Jeremy's convictions made many statements which were a deliberate attempt to blacken Jeremy's name with no actual truth to them
David Boutflour 'forgot' when giving evidence Sheila had been with the family on shooting holidays
At the time of Jeremy's conviction little was known about Sheila's illness but there has been many more cases just like Sheila, mothers who kill there children
Anti Bambers make much of Sheila being in a clean condition when found but there was a bucket of bloodied clothes found at WHF that was not taken by police or tested
Sheila had asked her husband for a reconciliation on their last journey to WHF but he rejected her saying he was with someone else
The CCRC abruptly shut down Jeremy's application to appeal not long after Simon McKay had been appointed as a new lawyer when Simon McKay was in the middle of vital tests that could have proved Jeremy was innocent.
Up until Simons appointment Jeremy was told he could have as long as he liked to make his submissions
When Jeremy was first told by the police all his family were dead his instant reaction was to blame the police and say they were responsible as he believed there had been movement in WHF when he was watching the house with the police. If he had wanted to put the blame on Sheila why would he say this.
The Rifle
The gun used to carry out the shootings at White House Farm was a .22 Anshuttz rifle. This rifle fires a small bullet about the size of a fingernail. There were many guns at the farm, totalling 7 if Anthony Pargeter’s bolt action rifle was also present, these included 12 bore shotguns and .410’s, most of which were kept in the cupboard under the stairs and in the downstairs toilet, although a shotgun was also found upstairs in the office and another found in the downstairs office. The rifle in question had not long been purchased by Nevill Bamber and was licensed in his name. Jeremy on the other hand did not own a gun or a license, though he would use Nevill’s rifle’s around the farm to shoot vermin.
Jeremy said that after he had an aborted mission to shoot rabbits that evening, he left the .22 Anshuttz rifle on the settle in the kitchen, he also left some ammunition and magazines out. For those who know very little about guns, this particular rifle is loaded by putting the bullets into a ‘magazine.’ The rifle was what is known as ‘self loading,’ this means that once you load the magazine into the rifle you can keep firing the gun easily over and over until the magazine is empty. The rifle had discharged 26 bullets to kill the family, as a magazine holds 10 bullets, this means it would have been loaded up to three times by Sheila, although Jeremy had already loaded one magazine and left it out on the side.
It has been postulated by the prosecution that it would have been difficult for Sheila to load and fire the weapon. Most of us do not realize exactly how easy the gun was to fire, and that it could be fired accurately at close range. All the deceased were shot within less than 4 feet. The picture to the right is a photograph of the actual gun which Sheila used to kill the family.
The DNA Evidence That Never Was
Most would agree that the only irrefutable proof you could present in the case of convicting someone of murder is that of DNA evidence. Jeremy Bamber has been imprisoned since 1985 yet no DNA or forensic evidence links him to his supposed crimes. The closest the prosecution came was a small flake of blood, found inside a sound moderator that they alleged belonged to Jeremy’s sister – ruling her out as the killer. The jury couldn’t make a unanimous verdict and asked to hear the evidence of blood in the moderator again then they convicted Jeremy by a 10 to 2 majority. This page devastatingly undermines the prosecution’s case by detailing how forensics from three different sound moderators were patched together by police and presented to the jury as findings from one exhibit.
The 2002 Appeal and the mystery of blood in the sound moderator
by J, Bamber and J, Martin-Adams, last updated 25.01.13
Part of the prosecution case against Jeremy Bamber at his trial in 1986 involved the claim that a blood flake discovered inside a sound moderator must have originated from Sheila Caffell. Supposedly, the existence of this blood meant that the sound moderator must have been attached to the rifle when the murders were carried out. However, because the moderator was later discovered in the gun cupboard, Sheila could not have committed suicide with it still attached. It is, of course, as the judge put it, ‘inconceivable’ that she could have shot herself and then unscrewed the moderator and put it away.
However, the argument concerning Sheila’s blood was undermined seriously by tests carried out prior to the 2002 appeal,
Laboratory Testing
which involved DNA testing which was not available in 1985. These tests cast doubt on the claim that Sheila’s blood had ever been present inside the moderator, prompting the Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC) to make a referral to the Court of Appeal during their 2001 investigation.
Background – the significance of the AK enzyme
Human blood is made up of a number of different constituents including red and white blood cells, plasma, and a number of different enzymes. In forensic science, some of these enzymes are used to make the distinction between blood samples from one person and blood samples from another. One example is the AK enzyme, which would become important in the case of Jeremy Bamber.
Human beings have two types of AK enzyme, namely, AK1 and AK2-1[1]. The blood flake discovered inside the sound moderator was analyzed and found to contain the AK1 enzyme, meaning that it could not have originated from June Bamber, whose blood contained AK2-1[2]. The blood of the other deceased family members – Nevill Bamber, Daniel Caffell and Nicholas Caffell – belonged to the AK-1 grouping. David Boutflour and Ann Eaton (the children of Robert and Pamela Boutflour) also shared the AK1 grouping: both handled Nevill Bamber’s sound moderator (DB/1) before giving it to Essex Police[3]. Sheila Caffell’s enzyme blood grouping was A, PGM 1 +, EAP BA, AK1, HP2-1: an identical match to Robert Boutflour, Jeremy’s uncle though marriage to his mother’s sister, Pamela Speakman. Both Robert and Pamela were primary beneficiaries of the estate upon the conviction of Jeremy Bamber[4].
At the 1986 trial, the Court was told that the discovery of the AK-1 enzyme constituted clear evidence that the blood flake found inside the sound moderator came from Sheila Caffell[5]. What the Court was not told was that the AK-1 enzyme found in human blood is genetically identical to the AK-1 enzyme found in the blood of pigs, cattle, rabbits, chickens and carp[6]. The rifle and the sound moderators were used to shoot game and could have been carried alongside rabbits when returning from a shoot. Had the Court been informed that two types of animal blood were found on the outer surface of the first sound moderator (SBJ/1)[7], perhaps the discovery of the AK-1 enzyme would have been attributed to animal, rather than human, blood. Given that this discovery was not disclosed until after the 2002 Appeal[8], the Court was denied the opportunity to consider the significance of this information during the 1986 trial.
The 2002 Appeal
Police records confirm that a total of three Parker Hale MM1-type sound moderators (SBJ/1; DB/1 and DRB/1) were seized by Essex Police in 1985. In preparation for the 2002 appeal, tests were carried out on one of the three moderators[9] to analyse DNA on the internal baffle plates. It is not known which of three was examined for the appeal[10]. The fact that all three moderators were mixed up and mislabelled by Essex Police caused confusion for many years, but it has now become clear which of the three was kept by the police after the trial, and which were returned to Jeremy’s cousins, Anthony Pargeter and David Boutflour.
The sound moderator retained by Essex Police was DNA tested by forensic experts working for the Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC) in 2001, revealing both male and female DNA on the internal baffle plates. The female DNA turned out to be a perfect match for June Bamber[11], even though her blood grouping of AK2-1 was not found inside the moderator in 1986. The results confirmed that the male DNA was not a match for Jeremy Bamber.
Giving a DNA Sample
The prosecution team tried to establish whether the sound moderator contained DNA matching Jeremy’s relatives, including David Boutflour, Robert Boutflour, Peter Eaton and Anthony Pargeter, all of whom had handled one or more of the sound moderators. With the exception of Anthony Pargeter, there is no evidence to suggest that the other male relatives agreed to provide DNA samples to be checked against the male DNA found inside the moderator[12].
At the 2002 appeal, the prosecution’s forensic experts conceded that the Crown could no longer rely on Sheila’s blood ever having been inside the sound moderator[13]. However, Mark Webster, a forensic scientist called to give evidence by the defence, argued that because the DNA found on the sound moderator could not be attributed to blood, it remains possible that the blood that was originally present on the internal baffle plates had been completely swabbed off during earlier testing, and that the DNA from June Bamber and the unknown male may have been nothing more than accidental cross-contamination[14]. In other words, the absence of Sheila’s DNA did not mean that her blood had never been present inside the sound moderator.
Obtaining Blood from a Flake
Although Mark Webster had been called to give evidence on behalf of the defence, his testimony completely undermined the argument of the defence that Sheila’s blood had never been on the sound moderator’s baffle plates, and accordingly, the appeal judges dismissed this ground of appeal based upon Mr Webster’s evidence[15]. Ironically, had Jeremy’s defence lawyers not called Mr Webster to give evidence, the appeal judges would probably have accepted the evidence given by the prosecution’s forensic experts and the appeal against conviction might have been granted.
The three sound moderators
The courts have never been presented with evidence that Essex Police actually seized three sound moderators during the original investigation. Recently disclosed evidence shows that Essex Police seized one moderator from the gun cupboard on 7 August 1985 (SBJ/1)[16]. David Boutflour discovered Nevill Bamber’s sound moderator (DB/1) on 10 August 1985, which was handed to the police by Peter and Ann Eaton on 11 September 1985[17]. David Boutflour handed in his own sound moderator (DRB/1) shortly after 25 September 1985, and this was returned to him on 20 May 1988[18]. Essex Police submitted two of these sound moderators (SBJ/1 and DRB/1) for forensic analysis, yet it was concluded that the blood, paint and DNA findings all related to one sound moderator. Although the recently unearthed evidence confirms that the results relate to two separate sound moderators[19], Essex Police somehow combined all of the forensic findings from two identical sound moderators to make the case that only one moderator was examined at Huntingdon Forensic Laboratory. At the 1986 trial, the combined evidence from SBJ/1 and DB/1 was presented as being from DRB/1, which, ironically, was the only sound moderator which had not been subject to forensic examination[20].
Hi Jackie. Thank you so much for the above I really appreciate the effort you have gone to in explaining your reasons for believing why Jeremy may well be innocent. I've got a mountain of material to get through and I'm going to pay special attention to the areas you have highlighted. Thank you once again Jackie 8((()*/
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The significance of the bible found by Sheila's body and the significance of where the bible was left open???
Why has the owner of the fingerprints on the bible found by
Sheila NEVER been disclosed???
What possible reason could there be to WITHOLD this evidence
Sheila Caffell was found with an open Bible by her side. The pages were covered in bloodied fingerprints. Document's show the bible was tested and forensics were positive for prints, but the owner of the prints was never disclosed. Could this be because they were the bloodied fingerprints of Sheila Caffell?
Her Bible was found by her side, open at pages containing Psalms 51-55. Eminent theologian Susan Gillingham has prepared a report on the significance of these psalms, in relation to Sheila's mental state and religious mania. She says anyone who knew the psalms well would turn to them as a means of "expressing their own penitence at the evil within themselves and outrage at the evil words and actions performed against them by others".
Astonishingly, the bloodstained Bible was never produced at trial, despite repeated requests from Bamber's solicitor. So the jury was not aware of the significance of the psalms.
Photographs also showed a handwritten note sticking up from between the pages of the Bible. The words at the top of the note are "love one another" ? the same words were written on a banner on a wall in a room in Jonestown, Guyana, where 909 people died in 1978 in a mass murder-suicide. But the evidential value of what was inside the Bible cannot now be gauged; Essex police have informed Bamber's lawyers that the note has been destroyed.
Hugh Ferguson, Sheila's psychiatrist, gave evidence at the trial. In a statement made in 2002, he says he was unaware that the Bible was open at the psalms at the time he gave evidence.
Having read them, he says, "they contain in them the themes which, over time, I knew were exercising Sheila Caffell. In short form, the struggle between good and evil, or God and the Devil."
Important Factors That Could Have Affected Sheila's State Of Mind The Day Of The Murders
Nor was Ferguson, or the jury, aware of another factor that may have influenced Sheila to carry out the killings.
At the trial, Bamber said his sister was upset at the prospect of losing her children,
***************************************
but the prosecution accused him of making this up.
***************************************
Last week, the Guardian was passed a letter, written by Sheila's ex-husband, Colin Caffell, to Nevill Bamber. In it, Caffell expresses deep concern about Sheila's mental state and asks his father-in law-to "try and convince Sheila that it would be better for her and the boys if they stayed with me most of the time".
Ferguson says if Nevill had pleaded Caffell's case to Sheila, it could have had a "potentially catastrophic effect on her".
As a result, he says, "she may have projected on to her father a concept of evil".
Why do you always take an event and imply that it is evidence of Sheila's guilt jackie???
Please read this carefully at least twice...
FACT: The finger prints on the Bible didn't belong to Sheila. Sheila DIDN'T HAVE BLOOD ON HER FINGER TIPS or anywhere else within her hands. She could NOT therfore have applied fingerprints in blood to the Bible be it voluntary or involuntary.
Did you get that Jackie???
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To answer your second point Jackie, if Colin Caffell had had any serious concerns about his ex wife's mental stability he would not have let her get unfettered access to the twins.
In relation to the Bible Jackie, this doesn't represent evidence one way or the other. The Bible could have been placed there by anyone. In fact, Dr Vanezis commented after seeing the position of the Bible that it was a prop and appeared to have been placed after Sheila's collapse. For the Bible to have landed where it did Sheila would have to have held the rifle and the Bible at the same time while shooting herself....impossible!!!!!!!
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Clearly we have to be guided by the evidence and the facts and not get involved in speculation.
Sheila never handled the rifle, nor did she leave any fingerprints in blood on the Bible. Her killer set the scene after he shot her twice in the neck. He laid the rifle lengthwise along her body and left the Bible by her hand for good measure. Now who could have done such a thing and why? >@@(*&)
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David I am trying to keep to the facts more than the people who 'make out' Jeremy hated farming, hated Sheila and hated his parents !!!! Was in the process of buying a Porche and his photo was the only one missing from Nanny Speakmans bedroom or Sheila had never been on a shooting holiday !!!
It is a fact Colin had asked Neville to handle the tricky problem of telling Sheila she should have LESS time with her children because of Colin's worries.
It is a FACT because the letter exists !!!
'Last week, the Guardian was passed a letter, written by Sheila's ex-husband, Colin Caffell, to Nevill Bamber. In it, Caffell expresses deep concern about Sheila's mental state and asks his father-in law-to "try and convince Sheila that it would be better for her and the boys if they stayed with me most of the time".
Ferguson says if Nevill had pleaded Caffell's case to Sheila, it could have had a "potentially catastrophic effect on her".
As a result, he says, "she may have projected on to her father a concept of evil".'
David you posted this:
'There is no basis for any of this discussion as it is pure speculation.'
I totally disagree if you want to discuss the Bamber case I think this is a basis for discussion.
Sheila's doctor 'THE EXPERT' said if Neville had been the person who told Sheila she should be spending less time with her children
'Ferguson says if Nevill had pleaded Caffell's case to Sheila, it could have had a "potentially catastrophic effect on her".
As a result, he says, "she may have projected on to her father a concept of evil".'
None of us know exactly what happened on that last journey to WHF between Sheila and Colin except he rejected her when she had asked to get back with him. He told her he was with someone else.
We don't know exactly what was said at that last meal at WHF but we know for a fact Colin asked Neville to speak to Sheila about Colin should be spending more time with the children and her less.
We also know the statistics for people with Sheila's condition committing suicide are very high especially if the person uses canabis
None of us know what happened at WHF but we can only speculate what really happened and how poor Sheila was really coping
As for the bible why was it destroyed when police officers and the family suspected Jeremy from the beginning?
I suspect there are more details about the bible in file one which the defence have NOT been allowed to see and who really believes Jeremy would have known which page to leave the bible open on?
Does anyone really believe Sheila would have laid down and let Jeremy shoot her after he had killed her children.
Does anyone really believe she wouldn't have been like a crazed women and be covered in bruises??
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Rather than speculate wildly about whether Jeremy ever said this or ever said that, whether he hated farming or ever considered buying a motor car, why not address the relevant issues in this case.
None of us have any idea whether he hated farming or not. However, we all know that Shelia was found without a mark on her.
Jackie, why don't you spend your time campaigning for a really worthy cause?
The whole argument for Bambers innocence, as put forward by his supporters, is pathetic. I find it difficult to understand how seemingly, otherwise intelligent people, cannot see the truth.
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Rather than speculate wildly about whether Jeremy ever said this or ever said that, whether he hated farming or ever considered buying a motor car, why not address the relevant issues in this case.
None of us have any idea whether he hated farming or not. However, we all know that Shelia was found without a mark on her.
Jackie, why don't you spend your time campaigning for a really worthy cause?
The whole argument for Bambers innocence, as put forward by his supporters, is pathetic. I find it difficult to understand how seemingly, otherwise intelligent people, cannot see the truth.
The fact that Sheila was found without a mark on her gets ignored, you get the usual 'so was jeremy'. Forgetting that he had planned this for well over a year, when he went to WHF to slay his family he would have gone prepared, gloves etc
He had over a month to get rid of any incriminating evidence. Sheila was wearing a flimsy, sleeveless nightie and as we know, showed no signs of the carnage she was supposed to have caused. But let's forget all that, it isnt important!
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No one doubts that Sheila was a very troubled woman with a serious mental illness. However, the fact is she was too forensically clean to have committed the murders. It's probably true to say that the rifle would not have been that hard to fire. However, you've got to remember that Sheila during a psychotic episode would have to have the presence of mind to hit the target so many times, have the dexterity and agility to reload at least twice and have the physical ability to batter a much larger man. Even if we accept she could have done all these things the fact is we have all seen the photo of her body and there is no way this person could have done so given how unmarked and free of signs of a struggle, blood spatter etc she is. Finally if we agree to consider the not even half baked theory that she committed the murders and then had a shower, where is the evidence of this? Wouldn't there have been evidence that the shower had been used to wash blood away? Did she clean the shower as well? Good thinking for a psychotically insane woman. I agree, there are plenty more worthy miscarriages of justice to investigate. It's a fascinating case to be sure but despite numerous attempts to overturn the conviction and numerous hours investigating it the outcome is always clear that the law believes the conviction to be safe
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I dont think Bamber will ever have his convivtion overturned, goatboy. How many times has he applied to the CCRC, 2 or 3?
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Goatboy reference your last sentance why would the Bamber case have a place on this forum if you do not want to discuss if Bamber is innocent or guilty.
If everyone on here believes Bamber is guilty and will never be released why is the case still on here?
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Andrea how do you explain if Jeremy had just shot Sheila's two children she would just lie in the right position for Jeremy to shoot her in the neck.
Not ONE shred of evidence showing that Sheila fought back against Jeremy if he was the killer
Not a mark not a bruise ?????
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David I am trying to keep to the facts more than the people who 'make out' Jeremy hated farming, hated Sheila and hated his parents !!!! Was in the process of buying a Porche and his photo was the only one missing from Nanny Speakmans bedroom or Sheila had never been on a shooting holiday !!!
It is a fact Colin had asked Neville to handle the tricky problem of telling Sheila she should have LESS time with her children because of Colin's worries.
It is a FACT because the letter exists !!!
'Last week, the Guardian was passed a letter, written by Sheila's ex-husband, Colin Caffell, to Nevill Bamber. In it, Caffell expresses deep concern about Sheila's mental state and asks his father-in law-to "try and convince Sheila that it would be better for her and the boys if they stayed with me most of the time".
Ferguson says if Nevill had pleaded Caffell's case to Sheila, it could have had a "potentially catastrophic effect on her".
As a result, he says, "she may have projected on to her father a concept of evil".'
David you posted this:
'There is no basis for any of this discussion as it is pure speculation.'
I totally disagree if you want to discuss the Bamber case I think this is a basis for discussion.
Sheila's doctor 'THE EXPERT' said if Neville had been the person who told Sheila she should be spending less time with her children
'Ferguson says if Nevill had pleaded Caffell's case to Sheila, it could have had a "potentially catastrophic effect on her".
As a result, he says, "she may have projected on to her father a concept of evil".'
None of us know exactly what happened on that last journey to WHF between Sheila and Colin except he rejected her when she had asked to get back with him. He told her he was with someone else.
We don't know exactly what was said at that last meal at WHF but we know for a fact Colin asked Neville to speak to Sheila about Colin should be spending more time with the children and her less.
We also know the statistics for people with Sheila's condition committing suicide are very high especially if the person uses canabis
None of us know what happened at WHF but we can only speculate what really happened and how poor Sheila was really coping
As for the bible why was it destroyed when police officers and the family suspected Jeremy from the beginning?
I suspect there are more details about the bible in file one which the defence have NOT been allowed to see and who really believes Jeremy would have known which page to leave the bible open on?
Does anyone really believe Sheila would have laid down and let Jeremy shoot her after he had killed her children.
Does anyone really believe she wouldn't have been like a crazed women and be covered in bruises??
Regardless of your reference to a letter which honestly is proof of nothing really and your speculations Jack, the evidence is that there were no arguments or rows the night before the murders. Sheila was quiet and subdued when her auntie Pamela spoke to her before speaking to June. If there had been anything untoward that evening then Pamela would have known about it..
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Andrea how do you explain if Jeremy had just shot Sheila's two children she would just lie in the right position for Jeremy to shoot her in the neck.
Not ONE shred of evidence showing that Sheila fought back against Jeremy if he was the killer
Not a mark not a bruise ?????
If I held a loaded rifle to your throat Jackie would you move? And Sheila was shot standing up with her head back.
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Goatboy reference your last sentance why would the Bamber case have a place on this forum if you do not want to discuss if Bamber is innocent or guilty.
If everyone on here believes Bamber is guilty and will never be released why is the case still on here?
I personally still argue the case because I feel massively frustrated that people continue to believe in Bambers innocence.
Honestly Jackie, just step back and look at the case impartially. What persuades you to give him the benefit of the doubt?
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Goatboy reference your last sentance why would the Bamber case have a place on this forum if you do not want to discuss if Bamber is innocent or guilty.
If everyone on here believes Bamber is guilty and will never be released why is the case still on here?
I personally still argue the case because I feel massively frustrated that people continue to believe in Bambers innocence.
Honestly Jackie, just step back and look at the case impartially. What persuades you to give him the benefit of the doubt?
As long as there are people attempting to get a double child killer back on the streets we have a duty to challenge the arguments.
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Goatboy reference your last sentance why would the Bamber case have a place on this forum if you do not want to discuss if Bamber is innocent or guilty.
If everyone on here believes Bamber is guilty and will never be released why is the case still on here?
I personally still argue the case because I feel massively frustrated that people continue to believe in Bambers innocence.
Honestly Jackie, just step back and look at the case impartially. What persuades you to give him the benefit of the doubt?
As long as there are people attempting to get a double child killer back on the streets we have a duty to challenge the arguments.
And expose the bunkum 8(0(*
@)(++(*
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Goatboy reference your last sentance why would the Bamber case have a place on this forum if you do not want to discuss if Bamber is innocent or guilty.
If everyone on here believes Bamber is guilty and will never be released why is the case still on here?
To counter all the claptrap put out by:-
1). the Jeremy Bamber Official Web Site.
2). Bambertweets.
3). Jeremy Bamber : The Campaigner blog.
4). the Jeremy Bamber Forum.
5). other misguided twits who twitter.... https://twitter.com/HeidiHawkins39 (https://twitter.com/HeidiHawkins39) .... https://twitter.com/PoppyMeze (https://twitter.com/PoppyMeze)... etc.
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Have you never thought Sheila might have fainted if she saw the carnage or a rifle pointed straight at her, and thus made Jeremy's task so much easier, Jackie? >@@(*&)
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Andrea how do you explain if Jeremy had just shot Sheila's two children she would just lie in the right position for Jeremy to shoot her in the neck.
Not ONE shred of evidence showing that Sheila fought back against Jeremy if he was the killer
Not a mark not a bruise ?????
But jack, you still havent answered the question that tends to get ignored, sheila didnt have a mark on her or anyone elses blood but her own. How did she manage that if she killed them all?
By the way, we dont know in what order Jeremy killed them, how do you know the twins were shot before their mum?
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JB had to make his crime look like murder/suicide so he needed Sheila to comply if his plan was going to come off.
Now, this is my opinion only, but how do you know he didnt lead her into the master bedroom at gunpoint and tell her not to scream or struggle or he would kill the twins? they could have already been dead, but sheila might not have known that. If she did know they were dead then maybe she was scared the same was going to happen to her, so she didnt struggle or put up a fight, it would have been hard to put up a fight against someone with a gun anyway.
Just my take on what could have happened. We dont know in what order he killed them, only JB knows that.
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Goatboy reference your last sentance why would the Bamber case have a place on this forum if you do not want to discuss if Bamber is innocent or guilty.
If everyone on here believes Bamber is guilty and will never be released why is the case still on here?
A very good point Jackie. Let me explain. When I was new to the case I used to Google the case a lot and all I tended to find was the official Bamber website or the blue forum. One day I discovered this site and found it to be an oasis of reason in a desert of crazy speculation. Well, it was the forum that proceeded this one, that forum got closed down for some reason. I wonder who was behind that? 8(0(*
The point is, I was very glad there was a site dedicated to debunking the crazy theories (and let's be honest, most of them are, from Sheila's shower to the involvement of the MI6, to Freemasonry, to the Drugs Gang, I could go on and on here) propounded elsewhere, that's why I'm involved with this forum. The name of the site used to be "Miscarriages of Justice". Let's be clear, we all know MOJ's occur so if members of the forum felt that the convictions of Bamber and Hall for example were unsafe we would have no problems at all understanding the concept and formulating arguments as to why we felt this way. It just so happens that all the evidence does clearly suggest Bamber's guilt and there is no reason to think otherwise. It seems the Bamber supporters are ignoring the bigger picture and just are desperately looking for reasons why he is innocent because they want him to be for some reason. Personally if evidence of his innocence came to light I would be delighted because it would be a relief to know that no one could be as malevolent as Bamber would have to have been to commit the murders. But if it was going to come to light it would have happened within the first 28 years.
A lot of people will come across the blue forum and if they discover this one too by Googling the case that is a good thing in my opinion. However, the blue forum is only observed by a tiny minority of crackpots, whereas national newspapers like the Sunday Mirror and the Guardian (Eric Allison, a former jailbird himself seems to be the main journalist behind Bamber here) giving oxygen of publicity to theories of Bamber's innocence are far more damaging than the blue forum in my opinion.