UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: John on March 14, 2013, 02:06:32 AM
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The lead detective in the Jeremy Bamber case had his say on the case some time ago.
Former Detective Sgt Stan Jones rejects new evidence 'Bambi' went 'berserk' as farcical.
CLAIMS of vital new evidence that could clear Jeremy Bamber of five horrific murders have been dismissed by the former detective at the heart of the investigation as "farcical".
Bamber is reported to have uncovered a police phone log that he hopes will show he was innocent of the shooting deaths of five members of his family on August 7, 1985.
(http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000xWHY4ZBJaF0/s/750/750/133977-3.jpg)
Bamber girlfriend Julie Mugford arrives at Court escorted by DS Stan Jones and colleague.
Reports in a national newspaper suggest the missing phone log shows Bamber's adoptive father Nevill, 61 – who died with his wife June, Bamber's adopted model sister Sheila "Bambi" Caffell and her six-year-old twin boys – called police at 3.26am to alert them that Sheila had gone berserk with a gun.
It was ten minutes ahead of Jeremy Bamber's call to the police station at Chelmsford – timed in a log at 3.36am – in which he said his father had called him and also claimed Sheila had gone berserk.
But former detective sergeant Stan Jones, a 30-year veteran of the force, said the note of the timing was a mistake and there was only one call.
"All this came out in the original Chelmsford Crown Court trial," he told the Chronicle. "It is irrelevant.
"The only person who telephoned the police was Jeremy Bamber. There is no way his father phoned. To suggest it is farcical," said Mr Jones, who still lives in the Maldon area.
Although the logs are said to have been uncovered by Bamber sorting through 100,000 pieces of paper in his cell at Full Sutton Prison near York, Mr Jones said that all the paperwork, including statements that were not used in the trial, were given to the defence.
The family died in White House Farm, Tolleshunt D'Arcy, in a massacre that has become notorious worldwide.
Bamber, now 50 and serving a whole life sentence, has always protested his innocence and says Sheila, who suffered from schizophrenia, was responsible.
New evidence is being examined by the Criminal Cases Review Commission to see whether there should be a third appeal after Bamber's conviction in 1986, but a decision is not expected for some time.
Mr Jones, now 71, said it came out at the trial that Jeremy had even telephoned his girlfriend Julie Mugford at around 3am – before the call to the police – to tell her "something had happened at the farm."
At first, police did think Sheila, 28, had carried out the shootings before turning the gun on herself.
But they switched the focus of the investigation a month later when Bamber's girlfriend Julie Mugford came forward with vital new information and told them Jeremy had discussed killing his family.
Mr Jones said he was always sceptical of Bamber's innocence and raised his concerns at a meeting of detectives.
"On the second day after the shooting I spoke out and said it was Bamber who did it. I was ostracised and (I) spent a month of hell.
"When I chatted to Bamber I didn't get the reaction of someone who had lost all his family. On the day of the discovery I was chatting to him at his home in Goldhanger when Julie turns up."
As the couple spoke he thought he heard Bamber laugh.
"I thought 'was that a laugh or a cough' and later she confirmed it was a laugh and Jeremy said 'what an actor I am'."
Mr Jones said: "I knew the family were not happy and I was not happy."
He took possession of what became vital evidence, a silencer found in a cupboard, on which he noticed red paint stains and blood.
Mr Jones said the red paint came front the home's mantelpiece where he noticed scratches on the underside, scratches which were later vital in Bamber's conviction.
In February this year, a forensic expert claimed new photographic evidence would clear Bamber.
During Bamber's trial the jury was shown a close-up image of the scratch marks allegedly made by a silencer fitted to a .22 Anschutz semi-automatic rifle.
Prosecution lawyers said the marks were made during a violent struggle between tenant farmer Nevill and Bamber.
However, the forensic expert's analysis of negatives of early images, some never used in evidence, found no trace of the scratch marks.
Bamber's expert claimed the photo shown to the jury was taken 34 days after the murders.
Sheila was found upstairs with the .22 gun with no silencer. She had been shot twice.
Mr Jones pointed out that her manicured fingernails were still intact, but the killer would have had to have reloaded the gun at least twice.
Sheila's blood was also found in the silencer, but it would have been impossible for her to shoot herself with it attached as she wouldn't have been able to reach the trigger.
Mr Jones said there was a pile of circumstantial evidence which eventually pushed the detectives to their conclusion.
"Bamber consistently presents material which has already been discussed and adjudicated on in court and appeal hearings.
"It seems wrong to me that he should be allowed an appeal on the recent things he has mentioned.
"On top of all this he causes upset to the Bamber relatives as a result of his continued claims."
http://www.thisistotalessex.co.uk/Detective-rejects-new-evidence-Bambi-went-berserk-farcical/story-12648386-detail/story.html#ixzz2NTYzLyVY
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Poor, brave June, though dreadfully injured, was obviously trying to crawl towards the boys before she was killed by the shot between her eyes (it would appear that she was slumped against the door before she died). Ralph, also shot and injured in the bedroom, made it downstairs, jammed his chair against the kitchen door and nearly reached the phone, but was badly beaten around the head and fell back into the chair. This could mean that there WAS an accomplice waiting in the kitchen, who never actually shot anyone - Bamber came downstairs and killed Ralph with the headshots.
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That is a superb photo of Julie with her detective minders, she looks petrified. Is that Stan with his protective arm around her? Jackie must cringe every time she sees it. @)(++(*
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That is a superb photo of Julie with her detective minders, she looks petrified. Is that Stan with his protective arm around her? Jackie must cringe every time she sees it. @)(++(*
She looks tense, but composed. And determined.
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That is a superb photo of Julie with her detective minders, she looks petrified. Is that Stan with his protective arm around her? Jackie must cringe every time she sees it. @)(++(*
She looks tense, but composed. And determined.
So that is Stan Jones after all !!!... no wonder he appears so pleased with himself, finally seeing results for his labour and persistence - looks like he's about to dance the Gay Gordons with Julie.
I thought it was Taff Jones at first, because he's not unlike the photo in Powell's book... large broad face, jaw and similar aquiline nose, 'till I realised he died months before the trial.
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That is a superb photo of Julie with her detective minders, she looks petrified. Is that Stan with his protective arm around her? Jackie must cringe every time she sees it. @)(++(*
She looks tense, but composed. And determined.
So that is Stan Jones after all !!!... no wonder he appears so pleased with himself, finally seeing results for his labour and persistence - looks like he's about to dance the Gay Gordons with Julie.
I thought it was Taff Jones at first, because he's not unlike the photo in Powell's book... large broad face, jaw and similar aquiline nose, 'till I realised he died months before the trial.
Yes, the poor soul fell off a ladder at his house and was fatally injured. Mike Tesko and Lugg posted on the Bamber forum that it was all one big conspiracy to shut him up. What a bunch of muppets. @)(++(*
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As a postscript to this all I can tell you that Stan made DI and even later Detective Superintendent before his retirement. He was quite a guy.
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That is a superb photo of Julie with her detective minders, she looks petrified. Is that Stan with his protective arm around her? Jackie must cringe every time she sees it. @)(++(*
She looks tense, but composed. And determined.
So that is Stan Jones after all !!!... no wonder he appears so pleased with himself, finally seeing results for his labour and persistence - looks like he's about to dance the Gay Gordons with Julie.
I thought it was Taff Jones at first, because he's not unlike the photo in Powell's book... large broad face, jaw and similar aquiline nose, 'till I realised he died months before the trial.
Yes, the poor soul fell off a ladder at his house and was fatally injured. Mike Tesko and Lugg posted on the Bamber forum that it was all one big conspiracy to shut him up. What a bunch of muppets. @)(++(*
Lugg posted that he knows people who can arrange "accidents" like Taff Jones'. Ooh er. I wonder if he meant Gav? 8)-)))
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Poor, brave June, though dreadfully injured, was obviously trying to crawl towards the boys before she was killed by the shot between her eyes (it would appear that she was slumped against the door before she died). Ralph, also shot and injured in the bedroom, made it downstairs, jammed his chair against the kitchen door and nearly reached the phone, but was badly beaten around the head and fell back into the chair. This could mean that there WAS an accomplice waiting in the kitchen, who never actually shot anyone - Bamber came downstairs and killed Ralph with the headshots.
Sorry everyone, please bear with me while I think this through....
Ralph (injured) goes down the stairs (blood on wall), enters kitchen, blocks the door with the chair, nearly makes it to the phone (fingermarks on side, smudges on cupboards) but DOESN'T manage to pick up the receiver, because he is attacked. But Bamber has to cross the bedroom, go down the stairs, find that door blocked, go back upstairs and use a different way to the kitchen. Time enough for Ralph to make a phone call (which he doesn't.) So was someone else involved? And they were waiting in the kitchen because they were there to make the call to the cottage once Bamber had left? I'm only thinking this because of the position of the chair, against the door. It obviously wouldn't normally be in that position. And I wonder which officers (it would take 2) picked Ralph's body up when they disturbed it by bashing the door in, and put his head in the scuttle, and positioned the clothing and cushions to soak up the blood and stop everyone slipping in it?
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Poor, brave June, though dreadfully injured, was obviously trying to crawl towards the boys before she was killed by the shot between her eyes (it would appear that she was slumped against the door before she died). Ralph, also shot and injured in the bedroom, made it downstairs, jammed his chair against the kitchen door and nearly reached the phone, but was badly beaten around the head and fell back into the chair. This could mean that there WAS an accomplice waiting in the kitchen, who never actually shot anyone - Bamber came downstairs and killed Ralph with the headshots.
Sorry everyone, please bear with me while I think this through....
Ralph (injured) goes down the stairs (blood on wall), enters kitchen, blocks the door with the chair, nearly makes it to the phone (fingermarks on side, smudges on cupboards) but DOESN'T manage to pick up the receiver, because he is attacked. But Bamber has to cross the bedroom, go down the stairs, find that door blocked, go back upstairs and use a different way to the kitchen. Time enough for Ralph to make a phone call (which he doesn't.) So was someone else involved? And they were waiting in the kitchen because they were there to make the call to the cottage once Bamber had left? I'm only thinking this because of the position of the chair, against the door. It obviously wouldn't normally be in that position. And I wonder which officers (it would take 2) picked Ralph's body up when they disturbed it by bashing the door in, and put his head in the scuttle, and positioned the clothing and cushions to soak up the blood and stop everyone slipping in it?
Blagh. I'm confused. Hopefully Myster will come on here soon and tell me I'm a complete idiot. Catch you all later.
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Poor, brave June, though dreadfully injured, was obviously trying to crawl towards the boys before she was killed by the shot between her eyes (it would appear that she was slumped against the door before she died). Ralph, also shot and injured in the bedroom, made it downstairs, jammed his chair against the kitchen door and nearly reached the phone, but was badly beaten around the head and fell back into the chair. This could mean that there WAS an accomplice waiting in the kitchen, who never actually shot anyone - Bamber came downstairs and killed Ralph with the headshots.
Sorry everyone, please bear with me while I think this through....
Ralph (injured) goes down the stairs (blood on wall), enters kitchen, blocks the door with the chair, nearly makes it to the phone (fingermarks on side, smudges on cupboards) but DOESN'T manage to pick up the receiver, because he is attacked. But Bamber has to cross the bedroom, go down the stairs, find that door blocked, go back upstairs and use a different way to the kitchen. Time enough for Ralph to make a phone call (which he doesn't.) So was someone else involved? And they were waiting in the kitchen because they were there to make the call to the cottage once Bamber had left? I'm only thinking this because of the position of the chair, against the door. It obviously wouldn't normally be in that position. And I wonder which officers (it would take 2) picked Ralph's body up when they disturbed it by bashing the door in, and put his head in the scuttle, and positioned the clothing and cushions to soak up the blood and stop everyone slipping in it?
Blagh. I'm confused. Hopefully Myster will come on here soon and tell me I'm a complete idiot. Catch you all later.
Where did you get the idea that a chair was jammed against the door?... and which door do you mean?
The one between back vestibule and kitchen that Tesko has been making such a fuss about, or one between kitchen and main hall?
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On the blue forum they also allege that Stan and Julie were having an affair. I'm sure there is plenty of evidence to support this. Perhaps Mike is sitting on it and will reveal it at the right time?
Personally , I think if that is Stan Jones in the picture I would be very surprised if Julie was attracted to him.
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I didn't notice this before but there is a second chair right in front of the door which leads to the hall and thence to the back door.
(http://i.imgur.com/DjkLVLZ.jpg?1)
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Poor, brave June, though dreadfully injured, was obviously trying to crawl towards the boys before she was killed by the shot between her eyes (it would appear that she was slumped against the door before she died). Ralph, also shot and injured in the bedroom, made it downstairs, jammed his chair against the kitchen door and nearly reached the phone, but was badly beaten around the head and fell back into the chair. This could mean that there WAS an accomplice waiting in the kitchen, who never actually shot anyone - Bamber came downstairs and killed Ralph with the headshots.
Sorry everyone, please bear with me while I think this through....
Ralph (injured) goes down the stairs (blood on wall), enters kitchen, blocks the door with the chair, nearly makes it to the phone (fingermarks on side, smudges on cupboards) but DOESN'T manage to pick up the receiver, because he is attacked. But Bamber has to cross the bedroom, go down the stairs, find that door blocked, go back upstairs and use a different way to the kitchen. Time enough for Ralph to make a phone call (which he doesn't.) So was someone else involved? And they were waiting in the kitchen because they were there to make the call to the cottage once Bamber had left? I'm only thinking this because of the position of the chair, against the door. It obviously wouldn't normally be in that position. And I wonder which officers (it would take 2) picked Ralph's body up when they disturbed it by bashing the door in, and put his head in the scuttle, and positioned the clothing and cushions to soak up the blood and stop everyone slipping in it?
Blagh. I'm confused. Hopefully Myster will come on here soon and tell me I'm a complete idiot. Catch you all later.
Where did you get the idea that a chair was jammed against the door?... and which door do you mean?
The one between back vestibule and kitchen that Tesko has been making such a fuss about, or one between kitchen and main hall?
The chair that Ralph died in, jammed against the door that had to be broken down to gain entry to the kitchen, causing Ralph's body to fall to the floor and blood to flow from his headwounds? I'm guessing the chair with the cushions on. Does this work?
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No this is not correct. Check the plans of the downstairs. The AGA (and poor Mr Bamber) is against the back door into the kitchen not the hallway door. The police had to force their way in past Mr Bamber.
I mean the earlier posting, not yours Shona, sorry.
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I've never seen that colour photo before, only the B&W one taken from just in front of the AGA.
Aaah.... I see now, the chair in front of the back vestibule/kitchen door. But if Jeremy Bamber had been coming down the main hall staircase chasing Nevill then he would have to pass through the double half-doors between kitchen and main hall, and these didn't have a chair in front of them blocking the way, unless someone will correct me.
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Here is the plan. Mr Bamber's body is in the alcove by the back door of the kitchen. The white phone and bullets are in position 1 and 2. The AGA is in position 3. The situation is much more cramped than in some earlier drawings and police sketches. Also the stairs S3 were considered unusable due to "debris." If you look at some of the photos of the stairs they were indeed cluttered and the walls seemed mouldy so probably not used.
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Where is it documented that they had to force that internal door open thus pushing Nevill over onto the floor?... the only reference that I've seen about the TFU being obstructed is when they had to batter down the external back door.
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You beat me to it Myster. @)(++(*
The red dot denotes Nevill's final position slumped out of his chair.
Notice the adjacent door to the hall and thence to the back door.
(http://i.imgur.com/2HjlSce.jpg?1)
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Where is it documented that they had to force that internal door open thus pushing Nevill over onto the floor?... the only reference that I've seen about the TFU being obstructed is when they had to batter down the external back door.
I don't know. I've read so much over the last couple of years....Do you think the police found Ralph in the position on the edge of the chair with his head already in the scuttle? There's no way that Sheila could have placed him like that, and he could only have balanced like that because his poor body was so stiff. Oh dear. 8(8-))
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Here is the plan. Mr Bamber's body is in the alcove by the back door of the kitchen. The white phone and bullets are in position 1 and 2. The AGA is in position 3. The situation is much more cramped than in some earlier drawings and police sketches. Also the stairs S3 were considered unusable due to "debris." If you look at some of the photos of the stairs they were indeed cluttered and the walls seemed mouldy so probably not used.
John... I think you mean that stairs S2 not S3 were cluttered with debris... the route via S3 was blocked by a door barred on the RED side in the Bathroom wall upstairs.
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Here is a photo of the stairs labelled S2. Located just to the right of the Aga cooker.
I don't think we have a photo of the S3 stairs?
(http://i.imgur.com/IQ7xKUJ.jpg?1)
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Where is it documented that they had to force that internal door open thus pushing Nevill over onto the floor?... the only reference that I've seen about the TFU being obstructed is when they had to batter down the external back door.
I must admit I have never seen this stated in any police statement. It is probably another one of the blue forums theories.
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Where is it documented that they had to force that internal door open thus pushing Nevill over onto the floor?... the only reference that I've seen about the TFU being obstructed is when they had to batter down the external back door.
I must admit I have never seen this stated in any police statement. It is probably another one of the blue forums theories.
I suppose it must be, it's just something I've always taken for granted, that Ralph's body was tipped to the floor when the door behind him was forced.
Back to the drawing board. ?8)@)-)
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Where is it documented that they had to force that internal door open thus pushing Nevill over onto the floor?... the only reference that I've seen about the TFU being obstructed is when they had to batter down the external back door.
I don't know. I've read so much over the last couple of years....Do you think the police found Ralph in the position on the edge of the chair with his head already in the scuttle? There's no way that Sheila could have placed him like that, and he could only have balanced like that because his poor body was so stiff. Oh dear. 8(8-))
I don't see the police propping him up balanced on the edge of a chair like that.. and there wasn't a copious amount of blood from his four head or two facial/jaw wounds on the floor in front of the kitchen sink, which there would have been had he been seated on the chair in front of the door, and then pushed over by the TFU to send him forward onto the floor.
The only large amount visible is running down the side of the scuttle and pooling on the floor beside it.
Either he ended up there through exhaustion, or Jeremy Bamber lifted him onto it, probably before he delivered the final four shots.
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This photo gives one a good idea of the distances involved between the Aga and the door.
You will notice that the door is set back slightly from the line of the front of the Aga. Maybe the chair behind the one in which Nevill was found was disturbed?
If you look at the photo of the scene with Nevill in it, the still upright chair is positioned right in front of the door. I might be wrong but I cannot see anyone getting in that door with the chair sitting in such a position.
(http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=345.0;attach=1383;image)
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Where is it documented that they had to force that internal door open thus pushing Nevill over onto the floor?... the only reference that I've seen about the TFU being obstructed is when they had to batter down the external back door.
I don't know. I've read so much over the last couple of years....Do you think the police found Ralph in the position on the edge of the chair with his head already in the scuttle? There's no way that Sheila could have placed him like that, and he could only have balanced like that because his poor body was so stiff. Oh dear. 8(8-))
I don't see the police propping him up balanced on the edge of a chair like that.. and there wasn't a copious amount of blood from his four head or two facial/jaw wounds on the floor in front of the kitchen sink, which there would have been had he been seated on the chair in front of the door, and then pushed over by the TFU to send him forward onto the floor.
The only large amount visible is running down the side of the scuttle and pooling on the floor beside it.
Either he ended up there through exhaustion, or Jeremy Bamber lifted him onto it, probably before he delivered the final four shots.
Don't you think that Ralph's body could only be in such a strange, precarious position, perched on the arm of the chair, because of advanced rigor mortis?
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I agree with that Shona, he isn't actually in the chair, more so slumped in front of it. Rather strange? >@@(*&)
I wonder if any of the other photos are clearer?
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In order to have ended up straddling it if he was pushed over by the TFU, Nevill would have had to walk under his own steam and stride over the seat and arm rest of that overturned chair.... but he was already deceased.
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In order to have ended up straddling it if he was pushed over by the TFU, Nevill would have had to walk under his own steam and stride over the seat and arm rest of that overturned chair.... but he was already deceased.
Uwot m8??!!
I'm not getting you, Myster. I always presumed that Ralph died sitting in the chair, his body was knocked to the floor when police forced the door, and they picked him up and perched him, placing his head in the scuttle to collect the blood.
I need to watch The Big Bang. I'm sorry if I'm annoying you!
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Sorry Outlook, I mistook your post for John's when I said that stair S2, not S3 was the one blocked by debris.
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In order to have ended up straddling it if he was pushed over by the TFU, Nevill would have had to walk under his own steam and stride over the seat and arm rest of that overturned chair.... but he was already deceased.
Uwot m8??!!
I'm not getting you, Myster. I always presumed that Ralph died sitting in the chair, his body was knocked to the floor when police forced the door, and they picked him up and perched him, placing his head in the scuttle to collect the blood.
I need to watch The Big Bang. I'm sorry if I'm annoying you!
But if he died sitting in the chair, blood from his numerous head wounds would have run down onto the cushion he was sitting on, wouldn't it? And if he was already dead and his heart had stopped pumping.. remember it was several hours before the TFU broke in... there would have been little if any at all seeping from the head wounds, down the side of the scuttle and pooling on the floor.
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Sorry Outlook, I mistook your post for John's when I said that stair S2, not S3 was the one blocked by debris.
You are quite correct, stairway S2. That is what I meant. They look in dreadful condition. I cannot see thim being in use.
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Sorry Outlook, I mistook your post for John's when I said that stair S2, not S3 was the one blocked by debris.
You are quite correct, stairway S2. That is what I meant. They look in dreadful condition. I cannot see thim being in use.
It's what we used to call the Glory Hole, a place to store all the junk... but today the term's been hijacked by the sexual innuendo brigade !
I read somewhere that one or two rifles were wrapped in old towels and stored on the steps.
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Where is it documented that they had to force that internal door open thus pushing Nevill over onto the floor?... the only reference that I've seen about the TFU being obstructed is when they had to batter down the external back door.
I don't know. I've read so much over the last couple of years....Do you think the police found Ralph in the position on the edge of the chair with his head already in the scuttle? There's no way that Sheila could have placed him like that, and he could only have balanced like that because his poor body was so stiff. Oh dear. 8(8-))
I don't see the police propping him up balanced on the edge of a chair like that.. and there wasn't a copious amount of blood from his four head or two facial/jaw wounds on the floor in front of the kitchen sink, which there would have been had he been seated on the chair in front of the door, and then pushed over by the TFU to send him forward onto the floor.
The only large amount visible is running down the side of the scuttle and pooling on the floor beside it.
Either he ended up there through exhaustion, or Jeremy Bamber lifted him onto it, probably before he delivered the final four shots.
Don't you think that Ralph's body could only be in such a strange, precarious position, perched on the arm of the chair, because of advanced rigor mortis?
This has been debated strongly on "Blue." My personal belief is that JB placed Mr Bamber there to block the back door. Now the contrary "Blue view" is that "Gentle Jeremy" could not possibly have done such a thing. Whereas Sheila in "Raging Demon Mode" could have thrown Mr Bamber there with a flick of her wrist. Again a clear demonstration of her titanic strength before she had the ritual cleaning.
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Sorry Outlook, I mistook your post for John's when I said that stair S2, not S3 was the one blocked by debris.
You are quite correct, stairway S2. That is what I meant. They look in dreadful condition. I cannot see thim being in use.
It's what we used to call the Glory Hole, a place to store all the junk... but today the term's been hijacked by the sexual innuendo brigade !
I read somewhere that one or two rifles were wrapped in old towels and stored on the steps.
The stairway looks just ghastly by modern standards with so much damp. This indicates that it was not used much and it must have been very cold and damp even though next to the AGA but above the scullery and this was the middle of summer.
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I'm trying to get my head round all of this. Myster makes a good point about the spread of the blood and why there was so much around the coal scuttle and on the floor in front of the Aga. Question is though, who put the cushion on the floor by the Aga to stop the blood spreading all over the floor?
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This has been debated strongly on "Blue." My personal belief is that JB placed Mr Bamber there to block the back door. Now the contrary "Blue view" is that "Gentle Jeremy" could not possibly have done such a thing. Whereas Sheila in "Raging Demon Mode" could have thrown Mr Bamber there with a flick of her wrist. Again a clear demonstration of her titanic strength before she had the ritual cleaning.
But his final resting position is nowhere near the back door... it's in front of the red painted panelling next to the AGA. So the TFU would only have to push at a loose chair to get through the kitchen door, that is assuming it wasn't placed there by them after the raid was over.
Right, bedtime... I have to be up early (http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/3093/58320429.gif)
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I'm trying to get my head round all of this. Myster makes a good point about the spread of the blood and why there was so much around the coal scullte and on the floor in front of the Aga. Question is though, who put the cushion on the floor by the Aga to stop the blood spreading all over the floor?
Could it have been Bamber himself to stop himself from stepping in it and transferring footprints all over the house if he returned upstairs to check on his handiwork?
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I'm trying to get my head round all of this. Myster makes a good point about the spread of the blood and why there was so much around the coal scullte and on the floor in front of the Aga. Question is though, who put the cushion on the floor by the Aga to stop the blood spreading all over the floor?
Could it have been Bamber himself to stop himself from stepping in it and transferring footprints all over the house if he returned upstairs to check on his handiwork?
I don't see any other alternative. The blood would have all mostly congealed by 7.30 am so the police wouldn't have needed to stop its spread. Puzzling??
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I didn't notice this before but there is a second chair right in front of the door which leads to the hall and thence to the back door.
(http://i.imgur.com/DjkLVLZ.jpg?1)
It is clear to me from this photograph that Nevill is in the position where he died at around 3am in the morning. He bled out from that position. Note the clean edges of the blood pools indicating that the scene has not been disturbed at all.
Could we see the black and white photos please as the silhouetting may have distorted the profile.
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If you look carefully at the above image you will see that Nevill was actually supported by the basket shown in this later photo.
(http://i.imgur.com/5MUsGCR.jpg?1)
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I didn't notice this before but there is a second chair right in front of the door which leads to the hall and thence to the back door.
(http://i.imgur.com/DjkLVLZ.jpg?1)
It is clear to me from this photograph that Nevill is in the position where he died at around 3am in the morning. He bled out from that position. Note the clean edges of the blood pools indicating that the scene has not been disturbed at all.
Could we see the black and white photos please as the silhouetting may have distorted the profile.
If Ralph died in that position it would explain his arms, and also be yet more proof that Sheila is innocent. But I really don't think he did. The body wouldn't hold that strange position if it wasn't already stiff, imo. (And his arms could be straight because they were resting on the chair arms when he died.)
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One further thing that supports Shona is: Has anyone looked at the device fitted to the AGA surround immediately above where Mr Bamber's head would be if he was sitting upright? I will not prompt anyone but I have only ever seen one once before. They are quite unusual.
See the general photo: I am not going to post the "body" photo again as I cannot bear to do this.
It is the white and black cylindrical device.
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One further thing that supports Shona is: Has anyone looked at the device fitted to the AGA surround immediately above where Mr Bamber's head would be if he was sitting upright? I will not prompt anyone but I have only ever seen one once before. They are quite unusual.
See the general photo: I am not going to post the "body" photo again as I cannot bear to do this.
It is the white and black cylindrical device.
It's a dry tea dispenser Outlook. Made of plastic. My mum used to have one at home too.
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One further thing that supports Shona is: Has anyone looked at the device fitted to the AGA surround immediately above where Mr Bamber's head would be if he was sitting upright? I will not prompt anyone but I have only ever seen one once before. They are quite unusual.
See the general photo: I am not going to post the "body" photo again as I cannot bear to do this.
It is the white and black cylindrical device.
It's a dry tea dispenser Outlook. Made of plastic. My mum used to have one at home too.
Yes. They were once very popular in this country, they started in the 1960s and disappeared in the 1980s. They are now very valuable because so few survived as they were very fragile and broke easy. A house I stayed in had one and the button was broken. So we had to press it with the handle of a teaspoon.
What surprises me is that if Mr Bamber was at anytime sitting upright or being attacked in this location then it would have broken. They are very brittle and just slip on and off the wall fitting. So I feel the position of Mr Bamber is "posed." Only a strong person could have positioned him in such a bizarre manner.
Incidentally if anyone still has one of these you can get up to £80 on eBay for them. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Retro-vintage-60s-blue-Caddymatic-tea-dispenser-w-box-/170991726129?pt=UK_Collectables_Vintage_RL&hash=item27cfe6ae31
You can see how rubbish they were from the photo. The plastic body used to decompose and the nylon button always broke. You can see the shadow on the Bamber photo. Theirs was not broken which would have been unusual.
Oh well back to work.
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One further thing that supports Shona is: Has anyone looked at the device fitted to the AGA surround immediately above where Mr Bamber's head would be if he was sitting upright? I will not prompt anyone but I have only ever seen one once before. They are quite unusual.
See the general photo: I am not going to post the "body" photo again as I cannot bear to do this.
It is the white and black cylindrical device.
It's a dry tea dispenser Outlook. Made of plastic. My mum used to have one at home too.
Yes. They were once very popular in this country, they started in the 1960s and disappeared in the 1980s. They are now very valuable because so few survived as they were very fragile and broke easy. A house I stayed in had one and the button was broken. So we had to press it with the handle of a teaspoon.
What surprises me is that if Mr Bamber was at anytime sitting upright or being attacked in this location then it would have broken. They are very brittle and just slip on and off the wall fitting. So I feel the position of Mr Bamber is "posed." Only a strong person could have positioned him in such a bizarre manner.
Incidentally if anyone still has one of these you can get up to £80 on eBay for them. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Retro-vintage-60s-blue-Caddymatic-tea-dispenser-w-box-/170991726129?pt=UK_Collectables_Vintage_RL&hash=item27cfe6ae31
You can see how rubbish they were from the photo. The plastic body used to decompose and the nylon button always broke. You can see the shadow on the Bamber photo. Theirs was not broken which would have been unusual.
Oh well back to work.
You're right, Outlook, those things WERE rubbish. They always leaked, and you only had to look at them to make them fall off the wall. So it's suprising to see that one still intact and in place.
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I bet JB is kicking himself. Another nice little antique that could have been sold off. All you have to do is wait 27 years and yesterdays junk becomes todays "Fortune in the Attic." @)(++(*
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Uwot m8??!!
I'm not getting you, Myster. I always presumed that Ralph died sitting in the chair, his body was knocked to the floor when police forced the door, and they picked him up and perched him, placing his head in the scuttle to collect the blood.
I need to watch The Big Bang. I'm sorry if I'm annoying you!
Nevill might not have been sitting in the chair at all when the TFU broke in, unless there is definitely a written statement saying he was.
If he was standing when assaulted, his pyjama pants (which were found around his lower legs) could have dropped down (either because the waist elastic was a loose fit or the tie cord had come undone) so it's possible that he was tripped up by them and overbalanced. If your pants are half down your leg then it reduces your ability to move about easily, even without having any injuries to slow you up.
Under a rain of blows from a rifle barrel or butt, with a fractured left arm, a bruised right arm from trying to defend oneself, and a badly shattered jaw it would have been difficult to concentrate on keeping upright, IMO.
If he didn't then fall onto the overturned chair by himself, he might have been deliberately pushed down onto it by Bamber, making the final four head shots easier to place.
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Uwot m8??!!
I'm not getting you, Myster. I always presumed that Ralph died sitting in the chair, his body was knocked to the floor when police forced the door, and they picked him up and perched him, placing his head in the scuttle to collect the blood.
I need to watch The Big Bang. I'm sorry if I'm annoying you!
Nevill might not have been sitting in the chair at all when the TFU broke in, unless there is definitely a written statement saying he was.
If he was standing when assaulted, his pyjama pants (which were found around his lower legs) could have dropped down (either because the waist elastic was a loose fit or the tie cord had come undone) so it's possible that he was tripped up by them and overbalanced. If your pants are half down your leg then it reduces your ability to move about easily, even without having any injuries to slow you up.
Under a rain of blows from a rifle barrel or butt, with a fractured left arm, a bruised right arm from trying to defend oneself, and a badly shattered jaw it would have been difficult to concentrate on keeping upright, IMO.
If he didn't then fall onto the overturned chair by himself, he might have been deliberately pushed down onto it by Bamber, making the final four head shots easier to place.
Standing for the assault (hence the light getting broken) and sitting for the head shots.
What did the police see when they looked through the window? They at first thought that Ralph was a female.
And yes, Myster, the OVERTURNED chair! Precarious to balance on.
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Uwot m8??!!
I'm not getting you, Myster. I always presumed that Ralph died sitting in the chair, his body was knocked to the floor when police forced the door, and they picked him up and perched him, placing his head in the scuttle to collect the blood.
I need to watch The Big Bang. I'm sorry if I'm annoying you!
Nevill might not have been sitting in the chair at all when the TFU broke in, unless there is definitely a written statement saying he was.
If he was standing when assaulted, his pyjama pants (which were found around his lower legs) could have dropped down (either because the waist elastic was a loose fit or the tie cord had come undone) so it's possible that he was tripped up by them and overbalanced. If your pants are half down your leg then it reduces your ability to move about easily, even without having any injuries to slow you up.
Under a rain of blows from a rifle barrel or butt, with a fractured left arm, a bruised right arm from trying to defend oneself, and a badly shattered jaw it would have been difficult to concentrate on keeping upright, IMO.
If he didn't then fall onto the overturned chair by himself, he might have been deliberately pushed down onto it by Bamber, making the final four head shots easier to place.
Standing for the assault (hence the light getting broken) and sitting for the head shots.
What did the police see when they looked through the window? They at first thought that Ralph was a female.
And yes, Myster, the OVERTURNED chair! Precarious to balance on.
I have been trying to get my head around all of this but without much success. My own view on this is that Nevill was found where he fell and wasn't moved becuase to do so would have left the killer covered in blood and he couldn'd afford that. He might have been seen as he sleaked of home or something.
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I have had a look at the marks on Nevill's arms and back again and some of them look to be similar which can only mean that they were made in the same way by the same weapon.
Anyone else have a view on this?
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I have had a look at the marks on Nevill's arms and back again and some of them look to be similar which can only mean that they were made in the same way by the same weapon.
Anyone else have a view on this?
They certainly look similar hmm >@@(*&) Do you think they were made by the end of the rifle barrel minus the silencer? Possible being used to poke or jab?
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I have had a look at the marks on Nevill's arms and back again and some of them look to be similar which can only mean that they were made in the same way by the same weapon.
Anyone else have a view on this?
They certainly look similar hmm >@@(*&) Do you think they were made by the end of the rifle barrel minus the silencer? Possible being used to poke or jab?
They certainly appear to be defensive wounds of some sort. Just trying to work out what could have made them?
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I have had a look at the marks on Nevill's arms and back again and some of them look to be similar which can only mean that they were made in the same way by the same weapon.
Anyone else have a view on this?
In the Vanezis report the back wounds are listed as 'three distinct burn marks'... so are you suggesting that they could have been caused solely by impact from the barrel and possibly the protruding end sight or rear sight assembly?
Do you not think as I do, that all three wounds look different to each other? At a pinch you could say that the top one might have been caused by the threaded rifle end held at 90 degrees to the skin (possibly by burning), because it's of a similar diameter and the centre part looks hollow like the open central bore. The other two look very different.. but I'm clueless about those at the mo'.
All three back wounds though look 'cleaner' and more clearly defined than the arm marks which show additional bruising from the rifle's barrel.
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Two combined burn mark stills from the ITV documentary rotated by 180 degrees so that the the largest top wound is at the head/neck end.
(http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/7100/combinedburnmarksinvert.jpg)
Arm wounds.
(http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/2114/marksonarm01a.jpg)
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Yes, I do agree, the burn marks on Nevill's back do differ in that they have a clean boundary whereas there is a lot of skin scaving in the arm marks. This one on the inner arm however is different from the rest but identical to the back marks. It appears to be a gouge rather than a scave.
(http://i.imgur.com/bYRINVX.jpg?1)
Grazing to Nevill's forearm.
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Is that a photo of Nevill's left upper arm or forearm because wound 8 was a bullet entrance wound situated 4" above the left elbow; in other words is the lower part in the photo the elbow joint?
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Is that a photo of Nevill's left upper arm or forearm because wound 8 was a bullet entrance wound situated 4" above the left elbow; in other words is the lower part in the photo the elbow joint?
Yes, you're right, this is the bullet entry wound on Nevill's left arm. (forgot about that one) 8(8-))
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Yes, you're right, this is the bullet entry wound on Nevill's left arm. (forgot about that one) 8(8-))
How come you're always saying I'm right, John ?.... I'm really just as clueless as anyone else ! @)(++(*
The bullet entrance wound to the left arm I mentioned before is really an oblique grazing wound (whatever that means).... so I was wrong there. The radiograph showed fragments of the bullet in the left lower chest but these could not by found by Vanezis.
Is that definitely the left upper arm or forearm, because I can't decide if it's the wrist or elbow joint in the lower part of the photo? Or is it the right upper arm or forearm where the defensive wounds and bruises were found?
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I would say it is the forearm because of the 3" measurement shown. The upper part of the forearm is shown at being over 4".
Can't say which arm though...the pathology Report isn't terribly clear on what this wound is ? 8-)(--)
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The only factor which I can readily see to identify which part of the arm this is that the arm measures 3" so surely that must be above the wrist and not above the elbow?
If you look at the photos you posted you will see that the arm measures closer to 4" and more at the elbow.
My turn to say your right this time! 8((()*/
I must admit it does look more like the forearm... so it's probably not bullet wound number 8 after all, but could be an impact wound by a sharp object such as the rifle end or foresight.
I think it resembles the inner side of the left forearm with the palm of the hand facing towards the left, i.e. towards the body.
And it doesn't look like a bullet grazing wound either if you compare it to say the grazing gunshot wounds pictured about two-thirds the way down the page on this site, but be warned it has some gory images....
documentingreality.com/forum/f10/gunshot-wound-deaths-100661/
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This has been discussed at length on "other foums" and one of the problems was that the scales on the photos were different and suffered from severe perspective distortion so you have to take your own ruler to them rather than rely on the scale in the picture. When perspective is involved then it becomes largely guess work. Naturally to point this out on other forums resulted in the usual abuse which is mercifully absent here.
So in some cases what has been passed off as "burn" marks could be entry/exit wounds for bullet fragments I think? I recall one of Dr Vanezis' comments was that he was concerned that a proper examination had not been performed by a ballistics expert. Whilst he was an experienced pathologist I gathered he felt he would have valued the support of a ballistics expert. I am recalling the everlasting dispute over the "magic" bullet at the President Kennedy assasination entering and leaving the body only to wound another person in the car.
Some of those pictures are ghastly. Can I suggest that the link is disabled such that anyone who wants to go there has to retype the URL rather than just click through? It is not the sort of thing to go to accidently.
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Thank you John for changing access to that site as requested. 8((()*/
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Thank you John for changing access to that site as requested. 8((()*/
No problem. I notice that some of the links we add are being copied onto the search engines so we have to be careful what we link to.
Do you think that it could have been the rifle magazine which caused at least some of the sharp grazing or bruising? From memory I believe the forensics report did say that there was blood on the magazine.
(http://i.imgur.com/fAdAhYX.jpg?1)
The murder weapon showing the damaged stock.
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Do you think that it could have been the rifle magazine which caused at least some of the sharp grazing or bruising?
There are three or four longish bruises with cuts to the skin in line with them (more easily seen in the colour photos). The bruises look similar to the width of the rifle barrel (rather than a wider part such as the wooden stock) and as if these were delivered in quick succession one after the other, with the sharper parts such as the front or rear sight rather than the magazine causing the lacerations. The cuts might even have been caused by the barrel alone as the skin of an older person is fragile and more easily damaged than that of someone younger.
I think the rifle would have been more manageable when used to batter with if it was held with say left hand holding the stock at the wider end (behind the trigger) and the right hand holding the narrower stock just below the rear sight (assuming the killer was right-handed).
How the piece broke off the stock is still a mystery to me though... we talked before about this... but the rifle must have struck some inert solid object rather than a person and have been wielded by someone of sufficient strength. He might have dropped the rifle as a result, and had to pick it up again sharpish.
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I don't recall seeing anything in the forensics about blood on the magazine.. but again you may be right. I'll have to research a bit more.
If there was it might have come from the assailant's hand or glove when he reloaded it.
Or from contact with Sheila's blood when he shot her or planted the rifle on her body.
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Thank you John for changing access to that site as requested. 8((()*/
Thank you, that was kind of you. It really put me off my tea.
I would inclined to think the magazine would not be in place when the rifle was used as a club because they are not locked in place, they are held in place with springs are they not? I must admit I am no gun expert. So if you are hitting someone with a rifle the magazine would be prone to fly out? Perhaps? Also if the gunman was out of ammunition at the time he would be more inclined to use the rifle as a club rather than in the usual way at least until he had disabled his victim sufficiently to get time to reload.
So I suggest a sequence: Empty the magazine into the first victims, run out of ammunition. Realize Mr Bamber was escaping, use the rifle as a club, break the stock, reload with single bullets to shoot Mr Bamber, locate the magazine and reload fully, go back upstairs to complete the massace.
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Thank you John for changing access to that site as requested. 8((()*/
Thank you, that was kind of you. It really put me off my tea.
I must admit some of it was pretty gruesome but such is life. Glad to help...hope you enjoyed your tea? 8)-)))
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If you have a look at Dr Vanezis' Report dated 26 November 1985 at page 1. PV/2 is a flattened bullet recovered from Nevill's left arm.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.0
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Thank you John for changing access to that site as requested. 8((()*/
Thank you, that was kind of you. It really put me off my tea.
I must admit some of it was pretty gruesome but such is life. Glad to help...hope you enjoyed your tea? 8)-)))
I had some dry toast eventually. I think if I want to do something to myself, I will stick with tablets.
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If you have a look at Dr Vanezis' Report dated 26 November 1985 at page 1. PV/2 is a flattened bullet recovered from Nevill's left arm.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.0
This is what also leads me to think the position of Mr Bamber was "posed" because PV3,4,5,8,9,10 and 11 are wounds to the left side of the head and neck and as some would be the fatal wounds it is reasonable (at least on this forum) to think some of them (3)? were the last shots fired. But (and to me it is a really big but) Mr Bamber's body is right side on to the most likely position of the shooter. So he was moved post mortem by the shooter and of course Sheila was half his weight and a foot shorter (and most likely dead upstairs at this point).
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To explain myself better if we return to your "Red Dot" picture of the kitchen.
Mr Bamber is "lying" on the chair with his left side towards the AGA. The spare cartridges for a reload are at position 1/2. The spent cases are over towards the kitchen table and they are ejected forward and to the right of the weapon. Therefore the only and best position for the shooter is in the SW corner of the room facing Mr Bamber but... it is his right side. Therefore he had to have been moved or "posed" post mortem.
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If you have a look at Dr Vanezis' Report dated 26 November 1985 at page 1. PV/2 is a flattened bullet recovered from Nevill's left arm.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.0 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.0)
This is what also leads me to think the position of Mr Bamber was "posed" because PV8,9,10 and 11 are wounds to the left side of the head and neck and as they would be the fatal wounds it is reasonable (at least on this forum) to think they were the last shots fired. But (and to me it is a really big but) Mr Bamber's body is right side on to the most likely position of the shooter. So he was moved post mortem by the shooter and of course Sheila was half his weight and a foot shorter (and most likely dead upstairs at this point).
But the final four fatal bullets according to Vanezis were fired in two groups, i.e. two bullets in each group to the top (right of midline) and right side of the head. So the killer wouldn't have any need to reposition the body.
And why would the killer need to readjust it anyway?
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If you have a look at Dr Vanezis' Report dated 26 November 1985 at page 1. PV/2 is a flattened bullet recovered from Nevill's left arm.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.0
This is what also leads me to think the position of Mr Bamber was "posed" because PV8,9,10 and 11 are wounds to the left side of the head and neck and as they would be the fatal wounds it is reasonable (at least on this forum) to think they were the last shots fired. But (and to me it is a really big but) Mr Bamber's body is right side on to the most likely position of the shooter. So he was moved post mortem by the shooter and of course Sheila was half his weight and a foot shorter (and most likely dead upstairs at this point).
That's an interesting observation Outlook. >@@(*&) What you post is of course true, I also feel that he was moved albeit ever so slightly and his head put over the coal scuttle to prevent the spread of blood maybe?
In relation to the rifle magazine, I take back what I offered earlier about blood being on it. In John Hayward's report at page 6 he refers to blood being on the rifle barrel in the region of the foresight, around the mechanism and on the stock. He also says the stock of the rifle has blood splashes on one side suggesting that it was used to hit a person who was already bleeding. There was also blood on the breech which tested as being human.
Interesting that there was no blood found on the pull through which also suggest the use of the silencer.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=260.0
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I do not know either. It is just because earlier we discussed that Mr Bamber was found in a really unlikely and unstable pose. This has also been the subject of debate "elsewhere." I think the key point is that although the bullets were recovered from the left side of the head and neck mercifully we don't really know where the entry wounds were.
What is strange to me is that all of Mr Bambers' wounds are left side but that is the side that is protected facing the AGA and back door.
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Got it. Mr Bamber was moved because his body obstructed the back door. The shooter had to go into the rear office to replace the silencer in the gun cupboard so Mr Bamber had to be moved. The door was relocked and then the shooter left via the window to preserve the "Locked Room Scenario" which is critical to the suicide concept.
(Incidently the alternative theory "elsewhere" is that a policeman later found the silencer in the bedroom and "not realizing its importance" replaced it in the gun cupboard and failed to say anything.
8-)(--)
Sorry I know some of this is speculation and we should not do this.
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I also found a comment in Dr Vanezis' original Report (page 5 at bottom) stating that hypostasis or livor mortis was consistent with the position in which he was found at the scene.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=199.0
The Report also details the entry wounds being on the right side of the head.
The bruising to both side of Nevill's head is huge, that poor man was beaten to a pulp, something Sheila certainly wasn't capable of.
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If you have a look at Dr Vanezis' Report dated 26 November 1985 at page 1. PV/2 is a flattened bullet recovered from Nevill's left arm.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.0 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.0)
I think PV/2 was the bullet that fractured the left humerus (comminuted fracture of the upper third of it).
This was recovered from the soft tissue near the fracture site.
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I also found a comment in Dr Vanezis' original Report (page 5 at bottom) stating that hypostasis or livor mortis was consistent with the position in which he was found at the scene.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=199.0
Yes, by movement I would put it "soon" within minutes of death before Hypostasis or Livor sets in. That is normally well before rigor but within the first two hours or so. I think what it does rule out is that the TFU did not affect the body position which is a common claim elsewhere.
You are also right in that some shots where fired from the right hand side with the bullets recovered from the lefthand side of the head.
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I do not know either. It is just because earlier we discussed that Mr Bamber was found in a really unlikely and unstable pose. This has also been the subject of debate "elsewhere." I think the key point is that although the bullets were recovered from the left side of the head and neck mercifully we don't really know where the entry wounds were.
What is strange to me is that all of Mr Bambers' wounds are left side but that is the side that is protected facing the AGA and back door.
There were four wounds on the left side (2 to the left jaw, 1 to the left shoulder region, 1 grazing the arm above the left elbow)
And four wounds on the right side (2 to the top of the head, right of midline and 2 to the right side of the head just above the ear).
There is a drawing showing the position of all eight wounds, but I don't think it's in the library.
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Yes you are right I agree. Several shots fired from the right but recovered from the left side.
I still think he was moved though to allow the silencer to be replaced in the gun cupboard.
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I do not know either. It is just because earlier we discussed that Mr Bamber was found in a really unlikely and unstable pose. This has also been the subject of debate "elsewhere." I think the key point is that although the bullets were recovered from the left side of the head and neck mercifully we don't really know where the entry wounds were.
What is strange to me is that all of Mr Bambers' wounds are left side but that is the side that is protected facing the AGA and back door.
There were four wounds on the left side (2 to the left jaw, 1 to the left shoulder region, 1 grazing the arm above the left elbow)
And four wounds on the right side (2 to the top of the head, right of midline and 2 to the right side of the head just above the ear).
There is a drawing showing the position of all eight wounds, but I don't think it's in the library.
This is it but only a poor quality one i'm afraid...,
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I do not know either. It is just because earlier we discussed that Mr Bamber was found in a really unlikely and unstable pose. This has also been the subject of debate "elsewhere." I think the key point is that although the bullets were recovered from the left side of the head and neck mercifully we don't really know where the entry wounds were.
What is strange to me is that all of Mr Bambers' wounds are left side but that is the side that is protected facing the AGA and back door.
I'm sorry to keep doing this (it's the expirated blood crusade all over again) but if Ralph's body wasn't already stiff when perched on a thin strut of that chair, what was to stop him collapsing onto the floor? His neck and shoulders would have given way, his bent legs also would have given way under his weight. A dying or newly-dead body is heavy and floppy. It's not going to support itself by it's head. IMO he's in a sitting position because that's how he died, sitting in a chair, with his head flopped forward. And I think that is what was viewed from the window. And his severe head wounds would have started to bleed when his body was moved, hence the cushions and clothing around the scuttle. A good point of reference would be the Rettendon murders - those bodies bled out at post-mortem, many hours after death.
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I do not know either. It is just because earlier we discussed that Mr Bamber was found in a really unlikely and unstable pose. This has also been the subject of debate "elsewhere." I think the key point is that although the bullets were recovered from the left side of the head and neck mercifully we don't really know where the entry wounds were.
What is strange to me is that all of Mr Bambers' wounds are left side but that is the side that is protected facing the AGA and back door.
I'm sorry to keep doing this (it's the expirated blood crusade all over again) but if Ralph's body wasn't already stiff when perched on a thin strut of that chair, what was to stop him collapsing onto the floor? His neck and shoulders would have given way, his bent legs also would have given way under his weight. A dying or newly-dead body is heavy and floppy. It's not going to support itself by it's head. IMO he's in a sitting position because that's how he died, sitting in a chair, with his head flopped forward. And I think that is what was viewed from the window. And his severe head wounds would have started to bleed when his body was moved, hence the cushions and clothing around the scuttle. A good point of reference would be the Rettendon murders - those bodies bled out at post-mortem, many hours after death.
We can't see the front of the pyjama jacket. It might be soaked with blood, then Ralph's heart stopped beating, so the blood didn't reach the floor where he was originally sitting. One thing is for certain, as Outlook has pointed out - it would take someone much stronger than Sheila (and I'm the same height and weight as Sheila, with muscles like flipping Popeye from mucking out and lifting bales, and I couldn't do it) to man-handle Ralph's body into his final position. He was a big man, and lifting him and positioning that chair, putting it under him, placing his head, would be a mammoth task. I get the hyperstasis thing, but that could be wrong. Where would that be, anyway? Under his legs and bottom? The same if he died sitting in a chair?
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I could venture onto the blue forum, and have a quick scrap before I'm banned, yet again, but I can't be arsed. Mike promises so much, but delivers so little, the Calendar Girls giggle and flirt with Steve, Roch must wonder how his forum has turned into mumsnet, and the one remaining true supporter, Jackie, must despair. Time's up. It will be years before his case is considered again. Because, at the end of the day, it's so obvious that Sheila didn't do it. AND...no proof of a phone call.
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I could venture onto the blue forum, and have a quick scrap before I'm banned, yet again, but I can't be ar..d. Mike promises so much, but delivers so little, the Calendar Girls giggle and flirt with Steve, Roch must wonder how his forum has turned into mumsnet, and the one remaining true supporter, Jackie, must despair. Time's up. It will be years before his case is considered again. Because, at the end of the day, it's so obvious that Sheila didn't do it. AND...no proof of a phone call.
I would not bother it is Fantasy Island there. 1,000 pieces of evidence that JB is innocent and all of them going nowhere. You would think even the most die-hard JB supporter would have realized by now that it is all make-believe.
I am about Sheila's size and I tried to move one of my friends who fainted and she is less than ten stone and I could not do it. A badly wounded or dead man twice my size, no chance. Unconscious or dead people are notoriously uncooperative.
Thanks for the wound diagram. That clears a lot up. It was just with Dr Vanezis continually referring to recovering bullets from the left side. I see how this happened now.
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Great work everyone, I have learned so much even now. I think we must forget much of what we learn as we go along as there is so much to take in.
Are we all singing from the same song sheet then as relates to the bullet wounds?
The way I see it is that bullet wounds 1 2 3 and 4 were targeted shots and probably the fatal ones as Nevill lay dying. Wounds 5 6 7 and 8 would appear to be from the initial attack and are all over the place.
Nevill was fatally wounded more or less where he was found with the right side of his head being an easy target.
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If you have a look at Dr Vanezis' Report dated 26 November 1985 at page 1. PV/2 is a flattened bullet recovered from Nevill's left arm.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.0 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.0)
I think PV/2 was the bullet that fractured the left humerus (comminuted fracture of the upper third of it).
This was recovered from the soft tissue near the fracture site.
I think I have got this now Myster. There were in fact two bullet strikes on Nevill's left arm.
The first being the one which hit the arm just below the shoulder and is referred to as PV/2.
The second being the one which grazed his arm and was deflected into his chest cavity and fractured. This bullet was not recovered although seen on x-ray.
I take it then that it was this second bullet which made the gouge mark on Nevill's left arm?
(http://i.imgur.com/bYRINVX.jpg?1)
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I could venture onto the blue forum, and have a quick scrap before I'm banned, yet again, but I can't be ar..d. Mike promises so much, but delivers so little, the Calendar Girls giggle and flirt with Steve, Roch must wonder how his forum has turned into mumsnet, and the one remaining true supporter, Jackie, must despair. Time's up. It will be years before his case is considered again. Because, at the end of the day, it's so obvious that Sheila didn't do it. AND...no proof of a phone call.
I would not bother it is Fantasy Island there. 1,000 pieces of evidence that JB is innocent and all of them going nowhere. You would think even the most die-hard JB supporter would have realized by now that it is all make-believe.
I am about Sheila's size and I tried to move one of my friends who fainted and she is less than ten stone and I could not do it. A badly wounded or dead man twice my size, no chance. Unconscious or dead people are notoriously uncooperative.
Thanks for the wound diagram. That clears a lot up. It was just with Dr Vanezis continually referring to recovering bullets from the left side. I see how this happened now.
I always faint when I'm in a pub and pregnant, and although I'm little it takes at least 2 blokes to carry me out. The last time it happened, one of the blokes who kindly lifted me up took the opportunity to have a bit of a grimble at one of my boobs. Anyhoo. The point is, I'm 8 and a half stone, and it takes 2 grown men to pick me up. Sheila could not have lifted Ralph's body up, and if she'd tried, she would have been covered in blood.
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I always faint when I'm in a pub and pregnant, and although I'm little it takes at least 2 blokes to carry me out. The last time it happened, one of the blokes who kindly lifted me up took the opportunity to have a bit of a grimble at one of my boobs. Anyhoo. The point is, I'm 8 and a half stone, and it takes 2 grown men to pick me up. Sheila could not have lifted Ralph's body up, and if she'd tried, she would have been covered in blood.
You never cease to make me laugh, Shona !!... even at this time of the morning, when I shouldn't be here. (http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/637/lole.gif)
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If you have a look at Dr Vanezis' Report dated 26 November 1985 at page 1. PV/2 is a flattened bullet recovered from Nevill's left arm.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.0 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.0)
I think PV/2 was the bullet that fractured the left humerus (comminuted fracture of the upper third of it).
This was recovered from the soft tissue near the fracture site.
I think I have got this now Myster. There were in fact two bullet strikes on Nevill's left arm.
The first being the one which hit the arm just below the shoulder and is referred to as PV/2.
The second being the one which grazed his arm and was deflected into his chest cavity and fractured. This bullet was not recovered although seen on x-ray.
I take it then that it was this second bullet which made the gouge mark on Nevill's left arm?
You were probably right first time with the gouge mark being made by a sharp object, i.e. some part of the rifle, rather than a bullet.
And if that was the left forearm like you suggested and I agreed with, then it couldn't have been bullet wound number 8 because this was located 4" above the left elbow, which I take to mean in the biceps area of the upper arm.
Vanezis noted bullet 8 in the diagram caused an 'oblique grazing wound' but that in the photo looks more like a puncture wound.
If you refer to the site I linked to above there were two images of bullet graze wounds, or if you google images for 'graze gunshot wound' - you'll see that they tend to be long and shallow.
But to confuse the issue further Vanezis estimated this grazing wound to be only 1/2" which isn't long !
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Great work everyone, I have learned so much even now. I think we must forget much of what we learn as we go along as there is so much to take in.
Are we all singing from the same song sheet then as relates to the bullet wounds?
The way I see it is that bullet wounds 1 2 3 and 4 were targeted shots and probably the fatal ones as Nevill lay dying. Wounds 5 6 7 and 8 would appear to be from the initial attack and are all over the place.
Nevill was fatally wounded more or less where he was found with the right side of his head being an easy target.
Correct... bullets wounds 1 to 4 to the top & right side of the head when Nevill was bent over with his head in the scuttle, wounds 5 to 8 to the left side of the jaw & left arm received upstairs... (unless somebody comes along and confuses me again!)
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I always faint when I'm in a pub and pregnant, and although I'm little it takes at least 2 blokes to carry me out. The last time it happened, one of the blokes who kindly lifted me up took the opportunity to have a bit of a grimble at one of my boobs. Anyhoo. The point is, I'm 8 and a half stone, and it takes 2 grown men to pick me up. Sheila could not have lifted Ralph's body up, and if she'd tried, she would have been covered in blood.
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Humm, I had never thought of that. I'll try fainting next time I am in a bar. I fear my allure is fading these days.
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Great work everyone, I have learned so much even now. I think we must forget much of what we learn as we go along as there is so much to take in.
Are we all singing from the same song sheet then as relates to the bullet wounds?
The way I see it is that bullet wounds 1 2 3 and 4 were targeted shots and probably the fatal ones as Nevill lay dying. Wounds 5 6 7 and 8 would appear to be from the initial attack and are all over the place.
Nevill was fatally wounded more or less where he was found with the right side of his head being an easy target.
Correct... bullets wounds 1 to 4 to the top & right side of the head when Nevill was bent over with his head in the scuttle, wounds 5 to 8 to the left side of the jaw & left arm received upstairs... (unless somebody comes along and confuses me again!)
I'll go along with that. We will never really know but it is probably the best explanation.
I would not rule out some post-mortem movement of the body for nefarious reasons but I do not see it changing anything.
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Interesting to read Stan's words.