UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on July 10, 2019, 07:53:40 AM
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As usual I'm sure this has all been covered previously but often useful to review.
Can I ask that this thread keeps on topic and doesn't divert to the cadaver dogs. Thanks. (I'm bored senseless with the cadaver dogs 8)><().
I understand these dogs were deployed on 4th May but I'm unsure of the routes taken. They sniffed MM's blanket for her scent and then went on their way but which way? Or did they stand firm outside 5A? 8)-)))
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What threads already cover this topic.
The sniffer dogs are just as problematic unless you think they track direction as well as route.
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The first dogs to arrive were local patrol dogs. They sniffed the blanket and set the route. The S & R dogs from Lisbon sniffed the bath towel at 11pm on 4th and then followed the same route. They repeated the same route some days later. The lower pic shows the route they all took.
(https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P3/03_VOLUME_IIIa_Page_830.jpg)
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Daily Mail 7th August 2008. They say they got their information from the released PJ files, but they seem unable to do research because it's completely incorrect. One of the reasons why newspaper reports are not reliable as cites.
Two trained dogs were taken to the family's holiday apartment ...But the dogs were not used until May 8 – five days after Madeleine's disappearance – despite their handlers advising that the search should be done within 48 hours,,,
The dogs lost the trail in the car park, and their Portuguese handlers said they could have been distracted by the smell of nearby bin bags left out in the heat.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1042254/Aerial-photo-shows-sniffer-dog-trail-following-Madeleines-
scent-took-nearby-car-park.html
The dogs were used immediately they arrived, as were two more who arrived the following day. Those two were used again on 8th. No handler mentioned bin bags near the car park.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARMANDO_MORAIS.htm
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PEDRO_ESTEVES.htm
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The first dogs to arrive were local patrol dogs. They sniffed the blanket and set the route. The S & R dogs from Lisbon sniffed the bath towel at 11pm on 4th and then followed the same route. They repeated the same route some days later. The lower pic shows the route they all took.
(https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P3/03_VOLUME_IIIa_Page_830.jpg)
Thanks. So what's the upshot of this? After all MM travelled paths with her parents so her scent would be expected along certain routes?
The dogs don't seem to support Tannerman or Smithman?
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Thanks. So what's the upshot of this? After all MM travelled paths with her parents so her scent would be expected along certain routes?
The dogs don't seem to support Tannerman or Smithman?
First of all there's no proof that M's scent was on the pink blanket or the bath towel. I think they should have insisted on having her clothes.
According to the parents they never took that route, although after the dogs were deployed Gerry remembered an incident which might explain it.
----- That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they left the residence by the main door, to place the children in the respective creches, MADELEINE left [went] running to the left to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they had gone down to the furthest point away from those blocks, not knowing exactly how, the three children got into the gardens at the rear [of the blocks]. Then they followed the inside corridor [pathway] at the rear, next to the hedges [fences] up to the street that led to the secondary reception.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
The PJ mentioned the dog's findings to Jane Tanner;
JT was confronted by information that the police technical team could find no indication that Madeleine had passed the junction where she indicated that a man had been carrying a girl in his arms
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm
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So is it safe to say the dogs did not pick up any scent from MM other than areas she had previously been? Albeit they sniffed a blanket and towel which some believe might not have contained any of MM's scent.
For those who believe the McCanns were not responsible this would suggest either someone abducted MM from 5A or she woke and wandered and was abducted in the vicinity. Either way she must have been placed in a car and taken away? I guess she could have been taken to somewhere nearby eg another apartment.
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So is it safe to say the dogs did not pick up any scent from MM other than areas she had previously been? Albeit they sniffed a blanket and towel which some believe might not have contained any of MM's scent.
For those who believe the McCanns were not responsible this would suggest either someone abducted MM from 5A or she woke and wandered and was abducted in the vicinity. Either way she must have been placed in a car and taken away? I guess she could have been taken to somewhere nearby eg another apartment.
There is no MUST about it. Purely supposition
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There is no MUST about it. Purely supposition
I preceded the must with "For those who believe the McCanns were not responsible this would suggest..."
For those who believe the McCanns were not responsible then it would suggest MM was abducted by someone from 5A or she woke and wandered and was abducted in the vicinity and either way placed in a car and taken away would it not?
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I preceded the must with "For those who believe the McCanns were not responsible this would suggest..."
For those who believe the McCanns were not responsible then it would suggest MM was abducted by someone from 5A or she woke and wandered and was abducted in the vicinity and either way placed in a car and taken away would it not?
If Madeleine was carried away from 5a why would her scent be prevalent above that who removed her?
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If Madeleine was carried away from 5a why would her scent be prevalent above that who removed her?
The outcome of the S and R dogs doesn't suggest she was carried away from 5A beyond a waiting car in the immediate vicinity.
MM's scent would be prevalent above anyone who might have moved her as the dogs had MM's scent from her blanket. The dogs did not have the scent of any mover.
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If Madeleine was carried away from 5a why would her scent be prevalent above that who removed her?
The dogs were not given an alleged perpetrator's personal items to sniff.
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The dogs were not given an alleged perpetrator's personal items to sniff.
Do they track air born or laid trail.
Not all SAR dogs perform the same type of search. Some dogs are tracking (or trailing) dogs, and others are air-scent (or area-search) dogs. The types overlap, but the distinction between the two guides are the training process and how the dog participates in missions. Tracking dogs work with their nose to the ground. They follow a trail of human scent -- typically heavy skin particles that fall quickly to the ground or onto bushes -- through any type of terrain. These dogs are not searching, they're following: Tracking dogs need a "last seen" starting point, an article with the person's scent on it to work from and an uncontaminated trail.
For tracking, time is an issue. If a child disappears from a school playground or a inmate escapes from a prison, a tracking dog might be called in to follow the person's scent immediately after the disappearance, before other search groups and law-enforcement personnel contaminate the scent trail.
So going by the above if Madeleine was carried away from 5a why would her scent be prevalent above that of her carrier.
Air Borne.
Air-scent dogs, on the other hand, work with their nose in the air. They pick up human scent anywhere in the vicinity -- they don't need a "last seen" starting point, an article to work from or a scent trail, and time is not an issue. Whereas tracking dogs follow a particular scent trail, air-scent dogs pick up a scent carried in air currents and seek out its origin -- the point of greatest concentration.
Edit to add link.
https://animals.howstuffworks.com/animal-facts/sar-dog2.htm
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Do they track air born or laid trail.
Not all SAR dogs perform the same type of search. Some dogs are tracking (or trailing) dogs, and others are air-scent (or area-search) dogs. The types overlap, but the distinction between the two guides are the training process and how the dog participates in missions. Tracking dogs work with their nose to the ground. They follow a trail of human scent -- typically heavy skin particles that fall quickly to the ground or onto bushes -- through any type of terrain. These dogs are not searching, they're following: Tracking dogs need a "last seen" starting point, an article with the person's scent on it to work from and an uncontaminated trail.
For tracking, time is an issue. If a child disappears from a school playground or a inmate escapes from a prison, a tracking dog might be called in to follow the person's scent immediately after the disappearance, before other search groups and law-enforcement personnel contaminate the scent trail.
So going by the above if Madeleine was carried away from 5a why would her scent be prevalent above that of her carrier.
Air Borne.
Air-scent dogs, on the other hand, work with their nose in the air. They pick up human scent anywhere in the vicinity -- they don't need a "last seen" starting point, an article to work from or a scent trail, and time is not an issue. Whereas tracking dogs follow a particular scent trail, air-scent dogs pick up a scent carried in air currents and seek out its origin -- the point of greatest concentration.
Edit to add link.
https://animals.howstuffworks.com/animal-facts/sar-dog2.htm
*&(+(+
My knowledge of S&R dogs has now increased.
Please see post #2. The dogs were given personal items to start them off, so it appears they were in tracking mode.
Thinking conversely, air-scent dogs should have been all over the place, due to a high number of people in/around block 5 at deployment time.
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So is it safe to say the dogs did not pick up any scent from MM other than areas she had previously been? Albeit they sniffed a blanket and towel which some believe might not have contained any of MM's scent.
For those who believe the McCanns were not responsible this would suggest either someone abducted MM from 5A or she woke and wandered and was abducted in the vicinity. Either way she must have been placed in a car and taken away? I guess she could have been taken to somewhere nearby eg another apartment.
"safe to say the dogs did not pick up any scent from MM other than areas she had previously been?"
So did Madeleine never leave the apartment via the patio door, why did the dogs on multiple occasions only track her from the front door?
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"safe to say the dogs did not pick up any scent from MM other than areas she had previously been?"
So did Madeleine never leave the apartment via the patio door, why did the dogs on multiple occasions only track her from the front door?
Possibly because the dogs were started from there?
I've seen nothing to indicate the dogs were ever deployed on the patio. Have you?
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Possibly because the dogs were started from there?
I've seen nothing to indicate the dogs were ever deployed on the patio. Have you?
They were, I'm sure I've seen that it was only from the front door they picked up a scent trail.
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Possibly because the dogs were started from there?
I've seen nothing to indicate the dogs were ever deployed on the patio. Have you?
Good point.
But come one, how do you know the dogs aren't just following the scent of hot dogs. How's that 'evidence'?
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Good point.
But come one, how do you know the dogs aren't just following the scent of hot dogs. How's that 'evidence'?
Any respectful dog would turn their nose up at the smell of a hot dog. I think they are the most disgusting food ever invented.
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Any respectful dog would turn their nose up at the smell of a hot dog. I think they are the most disgusting food ever invented.
Me too. But dogs love a hot dog. But I'm going down the Davelian rabbit hole here; how do we know that these dogs were not following the scent of Burrito Bob's on the corner? What's good for the goose.....
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Good point.
But come one, how do you know the dogs aren't just following the scent of hot dogs. How's that 'evidence'?
The dog alerts are just that. Dog alerts.
The tracker dog trails are just that. Tracker dog trails.
That they lead from the front of 5A round block 5 to the car park opposite the Tapas reception rules out hot dogs, IMO.
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The dog alerts are just that. Dog alerts.
The tracker dog trails are just that. Tracker dog trails.
That they lead from the front of 5A round block 5 to the car park opposite the Tapas reception rules out hot dogs, IMO.
I'm only interested in fact! Where's the double-blind, control study white paper regarding the efficacy of the tracker dogs? How do we know the handlers aren't giving them pointers? Who trained the handlers? What's their accuracy rate? Come on, dammit!
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Me too. But dogs love a hot dog. But I'm going down the Davelian rabbit hole here; how do we know that these dogs were not following the scent of Burrito Bob's on the corner? What's good for the goose.....
We had a dog who wouldn't even think of eating a barbecued sausage. I have never brought myself down low enough to try a dog on hot dogs. In fact the thought of it just about makes me sick.
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Anymore posts mentioning hot dogs will be removed, they make me puke.
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Good point.
But come one, how do you know the dogs aren't just following the scent of hot dogs. How's that 'evidence'?
They followed the scent of the blanket and a towel, other people may have touched/washed it and it may not have been MBMs scent at all. It is strange where they stopped.
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They followed the scent of the blanket and a towel, other people may have touched/washed it and it may not have been MBMs scent at all. It is strange where they stopped.
Yeh, but what about unconscious cues from these supposed 'handlers'? What length of leash were they on? Whose to say they didn't stop because they could smell cat markings? What's 'scent'? Is Cuddle Cat a physical object, or is it a construct, a figment, if you will, a metaphor?
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Anymore posts mentioning hot dogs will be removed, they make me puke.
I saw an interesting article or vid clip a couple of days ago about the origin of hot dogs. Basically, if they follow a decent recipe, they should taste fine to one man and his dog.
Mind you, I can't stand them either.
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I saw an interesting article or vid clip a couple of days ago about the origin of hot dogs. Basically, if they follow a decent recipe, they should taste fine to one man and his dog.
Mind you, I can't stand them either.
So we're agreed, actual hot dogs are disgusting. This is technically still on topic because it's about dogs.
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Possibly because the dogs were started from there?
I've seen nothing to indicate the dogs were ever deployed on the patio. Have you?
They were pointed to the front of 5A by a report of opened shutters and a window and a sighting. Were they told the patio doors were open?
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They followed the scent of the blanket and a towel, other people may have touched/washed it and it may not have been MBMs scent at all. It is strange where they stopped.
They are amazing how they can sort it out.
Yeh, but what about unconscious cues from these supposed 'handlers'? What length of leash were they on? Whose to say they didn't stop because they could smell cat markings? What's 'scent'? Is Cuddle Cat a physical object, or is it a construct, a figment, if you will, a metaphor?
Are you a visiting professor? Where from?
I saw an interesting article or vid clip a couple of days ago about the origin of hot dogs. Basically, if they follow a decent recipe, they should taste fine to one man and his dog.
Mind you, I can't stand them either.
It is strange how the mention of hot dogs is actually making my stomach churn. It is weird.
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They are amazing how they can sort it out.
Are you a visiting professor? Where from?It is strange how the mention of hot dogs is actually making my stomach churn. It is weird.
Well stop going on about it then! enough already!
The cuddle cat is a weird introduction it is almost as famous as Adele...
It did bother me that is was MBM's favorite toy. but she never was pictured with it, and never took it to bed with her? My teddy from my cot still has pride of place on my bed!
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They were pointed to the front of 5A by a report of opened shutters and a window and a sighting. Were they told the patio doors were open?
So they were working on the assumption that this window was the mode of egress? Which, I suppose, contemporaneously, you would, in the absence of other data.
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So they were working on the assumption that this window was the mode of egress? Which, I suppose, contemporaneously, you would, in the absence of other data.
But they actually tracked from the front door! Not the window! Now does that tell us something?
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But they actually tracked from the front door! Not the window! Now does that tell us something?
I don't know, is there a report of the operating procedure?
Seems like a normal starting point, the front door.
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I don't know, is there a report of the operating procedure?
Seems like a normal starting point, the front door.
What about the gate at the bottom of the steps. How come there was no Madeleine scent there? I think most people will be thinking the patio door is the most likely exit point. Patio door , through the gate at the top and then the gate at the bottom. Turn left or right there once on the footpath? Nah no scent there.
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What about the gate at the bottom of the steps. How come there was no Madeleine scent there? I think most people will be thinking the patio door is the most likely exit point. Patio door , through the gate at the top and then the gate at the bottom. Turn left or right there once on the footpath? Nah no scent there.
But we know MM had legitimately been around the doors at 5A so her scent would be expected there. As I understand it search and rescue dogs of the type deployed in this case are looking for a trail away from the soc. They sniff an item that has been in body contact with the missing person to gain some scent and away they go. Apparently we shed some 40,000 scent carrying skin cells per min &%%6 and its this the dogs use to track.
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But we know MM had legitimately been around the doors at 5A so her scent would be expected there. As I understand it search and rescue dogs of the type deployed in this case are looking for a trail away from the soc. They sniff an item that has been in body contact with the missing person to gain some scent and away they go. Apparently we shed some 40,000 scent carrying skin cells per min &%%6 and its this the dogs use to track.
But those cell scatter in the wind and aren't there that long. Maybe too many people had crossed the footpath and into the patio gate to pick up a scent. I find the trail from the front door fits my theory so I'm sticking with it.
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I'm confuddled,not hard I know,but what were those dogs,tracker or air scent dogs,theres a distinction I think,if they were trackers,and its supposed Madeleine was carried away,how did those dogs discriminate Madeleine's scent above that of her carrier.Don't forget Tannerman and Smithman,they were carriers,no sighting of any child being led anywhere.Two options imo,old trail or she walked away,notwithstanding Rowley,"she wasn't old enough to leave of her own fruition" or words to that effect.
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I'm confuddled,not hard I know,but what were those dogs,tracker or air scent dogs,theres a distinction I think,if they were trackers,and its supposed Madeleine was carried away,how did those dogs discriminate Madeleine's scent above that of her carrier.Don't forget Tannerman and Smithman,they were carriers,no sighting of any child being led anywhere.Two options imo,old trail or she walked away,notwithstanding Rowley,"she wasn't old enough to leave of her own fruition" or words to that effect.
I'd call then tracker dogs.
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I'd call then tracker dogs.
So just for this arguments sake then,if it was a fresh scent she walked out of 5a,if she was carried there would be nothing to track,so whats it to be woke and wandered or older scent? conundrum time.
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So just for this arguments sake then,if it was a fresh scent she walked out of 5a,if she was carried there would be nothing to track,so whats it to be woke and wandered or older scent? conundrum time.
And with the older scents Madeleine would have been wearing shoes. Yet on the night she went missing she was in bare feet. IMO there would be a much stronger scent track laid down with bare feet as the stones would be cutting into the tender soles.
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And with the older scents Madeleine would have been wearing shoes. Yet on the night she went missing she was in bare feet. IMO there would be a much stronger scent track laid down with bare feet as the stones would be cutting into the tender soles.
Not yet convinced about the bare feet part.
But at Madeleine's age, our grandson happily ran around in bare feet on calçadas without feeling any pain or sustaining any damage to his soles.
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Not yet convinced about the bare feet part.
But at Madeleine's age, our grandson happily ran around in bare feet on calçadas without feeling any pain or sustaining any damage to his soles.
Mosaics = calçadas??
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Mosaics = calçadas??
I tried to look up the English equivalent, to no avail. The nearest I can think of is cobble-stones, but that gives the wrong idea.
They are cubes of stone, of similar sizes, but they are cut with rough, jagged surfaces.
The make up nearly all of the pavements in Luz, and our main patio here.
Our grandchildren frequently play without shoes or socks and the patio calçadas don't bother them at all.
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I tried to look up the English equivalent, to no avail. The nearest I can think of is cobble-stones, but that gives the wrong idea.
They are cubes of stone, of similar sizes, but they are cut with rough, jagged surfaces.
The make up nearly all of the pavements in Luz, and our main patio here.
Our grandchildren frequently play without shoes or socks and the patio calçadas don't bother them at all.
On the video I saw, the upper surface was flat or reasonably flat, so it wouldn't cut into the feet.
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On the video I saw, the upper surface was flat or reasonably flat, so it wouldn't cut into the feet.
If the video was around 5A, that's calçadas. The rough surfaces would not show up on a video that wasn't devoted to calçadas and their role in pavements, drives, patios and speed bumps.
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The first dogs to arrive were local patrol dogs. They sniffed the blanket and set the route. The S & R dogs from Lisbon sniffed the bath towel at 11pm on 4th and then followed the same route. They repeated the same route some days later. The lower pic shows the route they all took.
(https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P3/03_VOLUME_IIIa_Page_830.jpg)
Thank you Gunit.
Foto 4 shows exactly where I believe the pick up car would have been parked. Right adjacent to the gate from the garden which served the flats and balconies for watching 5A .
Anyone watching people checking Madaeleine would exit via that garden gate to a car exactly there.
However it is my belief that the tracker dogs unwittingly were tracking the scent of the abductor/s en route to 5A rather than Madeleines scent.
The blanket would have his scent on it and a nervous person would have a powerful smell about him/her.
Madeleine was being caried on a gusty night and her feet did not touch the ground. I believe that most of her scent was not transfered to the route
... and the tracker dogs were actually following the scent of the lifter from the car park around the building to Madeleines room rathe4r than the reverse
I believe that the scent stopped on that car park, because that is where the abductor/lifter startted his walk to 5A (Madeleines room)
Thank you Gunit, once again you have helped me.
This strengthens my idea that a watcher was viewing everything from the balcony opposite, cos the getaway car, it seems WAS parked right by the back gate to the balcony
Hidden in Plain Sight.
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Thank you Gunit.
Foto 4 shows exactly where I believe the pick up car would have been parked. Right adjacent to the gate from the garden which served the flats and balconies for watching 5A .
Anyone watching people checking Madaeleine would exit via that garden gate to a car exactly there.
However it is my belief that the tracker dogs unwittingly were tracking the scent of the abductor/s en route to 5A rather than Madeleines scent.
The blanket would have his scent on it and a nervous person would have a powerful smell about him/her.
Madeleine was being caried on a gusty night and her feet did not touch the ground. I believe that most of her scent was not transfered to the route
... and the tracker dogs were actually following the scent of the lifter from the car park around the building to Madeleines room rathe4r than the reverse
I believe that the scent stopped on that car park, because that is where the abductor/lifter startted his walk to 5A (Madeleines room)
Thank you Gunit, once again you have helped me.
This strengthens my idea that a watcher was viewing everything from the balcony opposite, cos the getaway car, it seems WAS parked right by the back gate to the balcony
Hidden in Plain Sight.
I must admit your theory is hard to break, and compares to mine in some ways.
We both think Madeleine left via the front door.
We both think she got as far as the car park outside Block 6 before a vehicle is involved.
We both accept the tracking dogs used the towel and the blanket not just one item.
It is hard to imagine an abductor using a towel to wipe himself down. So I still think you are wrong there.
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I must admit your theory is hard to break, and compares to mine in some ways.
We both think Madeleine left via the front door.
We both think she got as far as the car park outside Block 6 before a vehicle is involved.
We both accept the tracking dogs used the towel and the blanket not just one item.
It is hard to imagine an abductor using a towel to wipe himself down. So I still think you are wrong there.
The very fact he touched it, Rob, would almost certainly overpower the deicate scent of Madeleine IMO. Remember he/she wason a very dangerous mision Stealing a child. He would sweat that distressed sweat that signifies his fear, IMO ... and boy would he pong
No sorry, you are incorrect about my thinking that Madeleine got to the car park outside block 6. I think the tracker dog was probably following the lifters scent from the car park to madeleines bedroom. The dog picked that up from Madeleines blanket/towel which would have a distinct lifter smell on it IMO.
I do not completely rule that out however
I prefer to believe Jane Tanners statement
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I prefer to believe Jane Tanners statement
Which one?
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Thank you Gunit.
Foto 4 shows exactly where I believe the pick up car would have been parked. Right adjacent to the gate from the garden which served the flats and balconies for watching 5A .
Anyone watching people checking Madaeleine would exit via that garden gate to a car exactly there.
However it is my belief that the tracker dogs unwittingly were tracking the scent of the abductor/s en route to 5A rather than Madeleines scent.
The blanket would have his scent on it and a nervous person would have a powerful smell about him/her.
Madeleine was being caried on a gusty night and her feet did not touch the ground. I believe that most of her scent was not transfered to the route
... and the tracker dogs were actually following the scent of the lifter from the car park around the building to Madeleines room rathe4r than the reverse
I believe that the scent stopped on that car park, because that is where the abductor/lifter startted his walk to 5A (Madeleines room)
Thank you Gunit, once again you have helped me.
This strengthens my idea that a watcher was viewing everything from the balcony opposite, cos the getaway car, it seems WAS parked right by the back gate to the balcony
Hidden in Plain Sight.
Yout ideas can't be disproved because they are all speculative. However. I don't think an abductor would touch Madeleine's blanket or wipe himself down with the very towel that was given to the PJ. If he didn't then your idea is wrong.
If Block 6 is like Block 5 then only the ground floor apartnents can exit at the back, not random strangers.
.
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Thank you Gunit.
Foto 4 shows exactly where I believe the pick up car would have been parked. Right adjacent to the gate from the garden which served the flats and balconies for watching 5A .
Anyone watching people checking Madaeleine would exit via that garden gate to a car exactly there.
However it is my belief that the tracker dogs unwittingly were tracking the scent of the abductor/s en route to 5A rather than Madeleines scent.
The blanket would have his scent on it and a nervous person would have a powerful smell about him/her.
Madeleine was being caried on a gusty night and her feet did not touch the ground. I believe that most of her scent was not transfered to the route
... and the tracker dogs were actually following the scent of the lifter from the car park around the building to Madeleines room rathe4r than the reverse
I believe that the scent stopped on that car park, because that is where the abductor/lifter startted his walk to 5A (Madeleines room)
Thank you Gunit, once again you have helped me.
This strengthens my idea that a watcher was viewing everything from the balcony opposite, cos the getaway car, it seems WAS parked right by the back gate to the balcony
Hidden in Plain Sight.
According to KM the dog handler was given MM's pink princess blanket and some items of clothing. The GNR officer refers to a Turkish towel. I think they are referring to the same thing. The sort of comfort blankets children had around 2007 tended to be made of what I refer to as velour (and no I don't have a velour trackie). It seems the princess blanky and Cuddle cat had not been interfered with by any abductor so why would you expect the s&r dog to be scenting any abductor?
The s&r dogs track on skin rafts which shed at the rate of 40,000 per minute. The skin rafts would be all over the place: ground, trapping in nooks and crannies etc and MM's scent would be all over the blanky.
I think the route and car was as the dogs detected. The car park was most probably used by those shopping at Baptisa too. Any abductor only had to exit the alleyway and cross the other side of the road and even if the McCanns were walking along the other side they would have no reason to suspect MM was in his/her arms in the same way JT didn't think anything about 'Tannerman' until after the event. Abductor may even have covered MM with a blanket.
As Ian Horrocks said in his report the abductor was both controlled and controlling.
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According to KM the dog handler was given MM's pink princess blanket and some items of clothing. The GNR officer refers to a Turkish towel. I think they are referring to the same thing. The sort of comfort blankets children had around 2007 tended to be made of what I refer to as velour (and no I don't have a velour trackie). It seems the princess blanky and Cuddle cat had not been interfered with by any abductor so why would you expect the s&r dog to be scenting any abductor?
The s&r dogs track on skin rafts which shed at the rate of 40,000 per minute. The skin rafts would be all over the place: ground, trapping in nooks and crannies etc and MM's scent would be all over the blanky.
I think the route and car was as the dogs detected. The car park was most probably used by those shopping at Baptisa too. Any abductor only had to exit the alleyway and cross the other side of the road and even if the McCanns were walking along the other side they would have no reason to suspect MM was in his/her arms in the same way JT didn't think anything about 'Tannerman' until after the event. Abductor may even have covered MM with a blanket.
As Ian Horrocks said in his report the abductor was both controlled and controlling.
We have the evidence of the two dog handlers. One was given the pink blanket at 02:30 on 4th. The other was given the bath towel later; they searched at around 23:00 on 4th.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLOS-LACAO.htm
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PEDRO_ESTEVES.htm
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We have the evidence of the two dog handlers. One was given the pink blanket at 02:30 on 4th. The other was given the bath towel later; they searched at around 23:00 on 4th.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLOS-LACAO.htm
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PEDRO_ESTEVES.htm
Thanks again to the forum's chief archivist 8(>((
I wonder why they chose those items over the clothes KM supposedly handed to them? You would think worn clothes might contain more skin rafts than the blanky and towel? Anyway there's no doubt in my mind these dogs were the business and produced reliable evidence.
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Thanks again to the forum's chief archivist 8(>((
I wonder why they chose those items over the clothes KM supposedly handed to them? You would think worn clothes might contain more skin rafts than the blanky and towel? Anyway there's no doubt in my mind these dogs were the business and produced reliable evidence.
We've debated it for years now and there are two views that can't be sorted either it was:
1. where Madeleine walked/was carried.
2. It was where Madeleine had walked earlier that day or earlier that week.
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Thanks again to the forum's chief archivist 8(>((
I wonder why they chose those items over the clothes KM supposedly handed to them? You would think worn clothes might contain more skin rafts than the blanky and towel? Anyway there's no doubt in my mind these dogs were the business and produced reliable evidence.
However, nothing was found so of no evidential value - at least that's the argument used against the cadaver dogs.
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However, nothing was found so of no evidential value - at least that's the argument used against the cadaver dogs.
Search and rescue dogs are completely different to cadaver dogs.
Amaral used the s&r dogs as part of his case against the McCanns eg he thought at one stage the Tannerman sighting was created by T9 since the dogs did not track in that direction.
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We've debated it for years now and there are two views that can't be sorted either it was:
1. where Madeleine walked/was carried.
2. It was where Madeleine had walked earlier that day or earlier that week.
3. The dogs didn't track elsewhere eg Tannerman sighting or Smithman sighting.
4. If the dogs were picking up from earlier in the week they would be heading all over the place eg Millenium restaurant, tennis courts, swimming pool, Kids club, beach and Faro airport.
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Search and rescue dogs are completely different to cadaver dogs.
Amaral used the s&r dogs as part of his case against the McCanns eg he thought at one stage the Tannerman sighting was created by T9 since the dogs did not track in that direction.
In what way? They are all trained to detect scent.
As Madeleine wasn't found, one can't be sure what scent they were following.
Dogs can be incredibly unreliable you know 8(>((
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I what way? They are all trained to detect scent.
The s&r dogs are given an item to scent that's peculiar to the individual eg in MM's case the blanky and towel. Cadaver dogs are scenting a substance eg odour emitted from a corpse, any corpse, it isn't peculiar to an individual.
As Madeleine wasn't found, one can't be sure what scent they were following.
If MM was placed in a car which is air tight then the trail would stop as she would no longer be shedding skin rafts for the dogs to track on.
Dogs can be incredibly unreliable you know 8(>((
Search and rescue dogs have a long proven track record. They are able to pull skiers from avalanches:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9bvI0UDYj4
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The s&r dogs are given an item to scent that's peculiar to the individual eg in MM's case the blanky and towel. Cadaver dogs are scenting a substance eg odour emitted from a corpse, any corpse, it isn't peculiar to an individual.
If MM was placed in a car which is air tight then the trail would stop as she would no longer be shedding skin rafts for the dogs to track on.
Search and rescue dogs have a long proven track record. They are able to pull skiers from avalanches:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9bvI0UDYj4
Cadaver dogs have been known to find bodies and remains.
You appear to have blind faith in the performance of the tracker dogs with no evidence to support it
IMO
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Thanks again to the forum's chief archivist 8(>((
I wonder why they chose those items over the clothes KM supposedly handed to them? You would think worn clothes might contain more skin rafts than the blanky and towel? Anyway there's no doubt in my mind these dogs were the business and produced reliable evidence.
Speculation is all very well, but facts are more important imo. According to Kate McCann;
"According to the files, the tracker dogs did not goout until 11pm on 4 May. At some point in the first twenty-four hours (I could not say when exactly, but probably that morning) I recall one of the GNR patrol officers asking us for some of Madeleine’s clothing or belongings to enable these dogs to identify her scent. I fetched the pink princess blanket she took to bed with her every night, which they took, and some of her clothes, which they didn’t. [madeleine]
So Kate thinks she gave the pink blanket to the S & R dogs, but she didn't, they got the bath towel. She claims she offered clothes, but neither handler confirms that. In my opinion they would have chosen clothes rather than blankets and towels if given the choice.
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Cadaver dogs have been known to find bodies and remains.
You appear to have blind faith in the performance of the tracker dogs with no evidence to support it
IMO
Yes cadaver dogs are able to find corpses and remains.
S&r dogs are used all over the world in various operations eg natural and man made disasters. Some can even scent under water. These dogs have a long proven track record in the military and police. No blind faith required.
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Yes cadaver dogs are able to find corpses and remains.
S&r dogs are used all over the world in various operations eg natural and man made disasters. Some can even scent under water. These dogs have a long proven track record in the military and police. No blind faith required.
Indeed it is
Past performance is not evidence of current or future performance.
You believe these dogs because you choose to believe the dogs - no evidence to base it on.
IMO
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Speculation is all very well, but facts are more important imo. According to Kate McCann;
"According to the files, the tracker dogs did not goout until 11pm on 4 May. At some point in the first twenty-four hours (I could not say when exactly, but probably that morning) I recall one of the GNR patrol officers asking us for some of Madeleine’s clothing or belongings to enable these dogs to identify her scent. I fetched the pink princess blanket she took to bed with her every night, which they took, and some of her clothes, which they didn’t. [madeleine]
So Kate thinks she gave the pink blanket to the S & R dogs, but she didn't, they got the bath towel. She claims she offered clothes, but neither handler confirms that. In my opinion they would have chosen clothes rather than blankets and towels if given the choice.
You uploaded the stat from the pj which said the orange/pink blanket.
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Indeed it is
Past performance is not evidence of current or future performance.
You believe these dogs because you choose to believe the dogs - no evidence to base it on.
IMO
Ok I'm prepared to stand corrected please cite cases where the search and rescue dogs have been found unreliable.
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Ok I'm prepared to stand corrected please cite cases where the search and rescue dogs have been found unreliable.
Read my post and comprehend. I wasn't specifying tracker dogs in particular
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You uploaded the stat from the pj which said the orange/pink blanket.
Which they were given at 02:30 on 4th, although they asked for clothing;
asked for a piece of clothing that Madeleine had worn or used recently. They were given a pink/orange blanket that the child had been covered with in her bed.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLOS-LACAO.htm
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The difference with tracker dogs is they are trained to track one target scent. Cadaver dogs seem to alert to several
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Speculation is all very well, but facts are more important imo. According to Kate McCann;
"According to the files, the tracker dogs did not goout until 11pm on 4 May. At some point in the first twenty-four hours (I could not say when exactly, but probably that morning) I recall one of the GNR patrol officers asking us for some of Madeleine’s clothing or belongings to enable these dogs to identify her scent. I fetched the pink princess blanket she took to bed with her every night, which they took, and some of her clothes, which they didn’t. [madeleine]
So Kate thinks she gave the pink blanket to the S & R dogs, but she didn't, they got the bath towel. She claims she offered clothes, but neither handler confirms that. In my opinion they would have chosen clothes rather than blankets and towels if given the choice.
Were there two lots of tracker dogs, one had the towel and the other the pink blanket. Once the McCanns moved out of 5A they would no longer have access to the towel used by Madeleine. So surely the towel was given first, and the pink blanket, which had been photographed on the bed, the next day.
Do you think I've got that right?
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Were there two lots of tracker dogs, one had the towel and the other the pink blanket. Once the McCanns moved out of 5A they would no longer have access to the towel used by Madeleine. So surely the towel was given first, and the pink blanket, which had been photographed on the bed, the next day.
Do you think I've got that right?
The first lot (patrol dogs) got the blamket at 02:30 on 4th. The second lot (S & R dogs) got the bath towel sonetime before 23:00 on 4th.
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The first lot (patrol dogs) got the blanket at 02:30 on 4th. The second lot (S & R dogs) got the bath towel sonetime before 23:00 on 4th.
Was that the blanket photographed on Madeleine's bed? Did the McCanns take the damp towels with them on the 4th. At 11:00 PM on the 4th they would be in their apartment in Block 4, wouldn't they?
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Was that the blanket photographed on Madeleine's bed? Did the McCanns take the damp towels with them on the 4th. At 11:00 PM on the 4th they would be in their apartment in Block 4, wouldn't they?
It seems likely that the blanket was returned to the bed after being sniffed. You know as much about bath towels as I do, and all I know is that one was given to the dog handlers. I assume by one of Madeleine's parents because no one else would know that it was used to dry her on 3rd, which was what the handler was told.
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The first lot (patrol dogs) got the blamket at 02:30 on 4th. The second lot (S & R dogs) got the bath towel sonetime before 23:00 on 4th.
Did the different dogs follow the same route?
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It seems likely that the blanket was returned to the bed after being sniffed. You know as much about bath towels as I do, and all I know is that one was given to the dog handlers. I assume by one of Madeleine's parents because no one else would know that it was used to dry her on 3rd, which was what the handler was told.
That is why I'm wondering if the GNR have got their facts correct. Do you think thy didn't need to take the item with them? I have this impression the item scented was taken along with the team. I might be wrong of course.
I'll see if I can figure out what's going on tomorrow.
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That is why I'm wondering if the GNR have got their facts correct. Do you think thy didn't need to take the item with them? I have this impression the item scented was taken along with the team. I might be wrong of course.
I'll see if I can figure out what's going on tomorrow.
From memory there wasn't any towel. The blanket was mistaken for a towel. All three children would have been dried by the same towel. What use would that have been?
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From memory there wasn't any towel. The blanket was mistaken for a towel. All three children would have been dried by the same towel. What use would that have been?
And possibly an over riding smell of soap/shampoo
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From memory there wasn't any towel. The blanket was mistaken for a towel. All three children would have been dried by the same towel. What use would that have been?
False memory syndrome?
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False memory syndrome?
I don't think so. And what use would a towel be if used to dry others. I don't suppose for a minute that Kate took a bath towel for each of them.
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Yout ideas can't be disproved because they are all speculative. However. I don't think an abductor would touch Madeleine's blanket or wipe himself down with the very towel that was given to the PJ. If he didn't then your idea is wrong.
If Block 6 is like Block 5 then only the ground floor apartnents can exit at the back, not random strangers.
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Block 6 is indeed arranged so that only the apartments on the ground floor have access to the rear. There is no communal or public access.
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According to KM the dog handler was given MM's pink princess blanket and some items of clothing. The GNR officer refers to a Turkish towel. I think they are referring to the same thing. The sort of comfort blankets children had around 2007 tended to be made of what I refer to as velour (and no I don't have a velour trackie). It seems the princess blanky and Cuddle cat had not been interfered with by any abductor so why would you expect the s&r dog to be scenting any abductor?
The s&r dogs track on skin rafts which shed at the rate of 40,000 per minute. The skin rafts would be all over the place: ground, trapping in nooks and crannies etc and MM's scent would be all over the blanky.
I think the route and car was as the dogs detected. The car park was most probably used by those shopping at Baptisa too. Any abductor only had to exit the alleyway and cross the other side of the road and even if the McCanns were walking along the other side they would have no reason to suspect MM was in his/her arms in the same way JT didn't think anything about 'Tannerman' until after the event. Abductor may even have covered MM with a blanket.
As Ian Horrocks said in his report the abductor was both controlled and controlling.
Baptista has a fairly large car park to its front (west) side. To the rear, (5A side) it has a smaller car park, but with ample spaces for custom. Particularly the volume of custom in early May.
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I don't think so. And what use would a towel be if used to dry others. I don't suppose for a minute that Kate took a bath towel for each of them.
All I know is what the dog handler said. I don't believe he could mistake a child's play blanket for a turkish bath towel or that he lied when he says he was told it had been used to dry Madeleine.
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All I know is what the dog handler said. I don't believe he could mistake a child's play blanket for a turkish bath towel or that he lied when he says he was told it had been used to dry Madeleine.
Does this really matter?
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Does this really matter?
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Only in so far as a bath towel was a strange choice; as you commented.
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Does this really matter?
Only in so much as that if it was a bath towel, then it would quite likely not be Madeleine's scent.
IMO
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Only in so much as that if it was a bath towel, then it would quite likely not be Madeleine's scent.
IMO
I don't think it was a Bath Towel. That doesn't make sense. However, I remain mystified as to why it should matter.
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I don't think it was a Bath Towel. That doesn't make sense. However, I remain mystified as to why it should matter.
Well it would matter if the dogs hadn't followed her scent - IMO
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Well it would matter if the dogs hadn't followed her scent - IMO
Since I very much doubt that it was a bath towel, how does this matter?
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Since I very much doubt that it was a bath towel, how does this matter?
Because it would mean that the PJ had been misled into believing that Madeleine had been transported from 5A to where the trail ended.
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Because it would mean that the PJ had been misled into believing that Madeleine had been transported from 5A to where the trail ended.
Are you suggesting that The McCanns did this on purpose?
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Are you suggesting that The McCanns did this on purpose?
I'm saying the PJ were led to believe that the scent belonged to Madeleime
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I'm saying the PJ were led to believe that the scent belonged to Madeleime
Do you have any proof of statement?
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Do you have any proof of statement?
I'm sure its in the files that the police were handed material containing Madeleine's scent.
I think Kate also mentions something about it in her book.
But of course you already know this and are just trying to be tedious
IMO
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I'm sure its in the files that the police were handed material containing Madeleine's scent.
I think Kate also mentions something about it in her book.
But of course you already know this and are just trying to be tedious
IMO
No I don't and No I am not. But please don't forget that Insults get deleted. This includes you.
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I'm sure its in the files that the police were handed material containing Madeleine's scent.
I think Kate also mentions something about it in her book.
But of course you already know this and are just trying to be tedious
IMO
What an unpleasant comment.
Cite please for you claims.
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https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
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I don't think so. And what use would a towel be if used to dry others. I don't suppose for a minute that Kate took a bath towel for each of them.
Are we all thinking towels were not being provided by the holiday company? That would be a first for me that travellers would need to bring their own towels. OC had cleaners and laundrymen and a laundry. Wouldn't they be involved with washing and drying towels.
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https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
"During the afternoon of 4th May, more searches were carried out around Vila da Luz and were extended to a radius of approximately 600 metres, including the surroundings of the EN125 in the stretch closed to P da L.
At about 23.00 the extra teams that had been requested for reinforcement arrived (Officer Rosa with Oscar and Officer Martins with Fusco, both from the search and rescue unit and Officer Fernandes with Rex and Zarus from the tracking team).
After the officers had been updated about facts relating to the disappearance, they tried to reconstruct the route the girl might have taken with the two tracker dogs. For this purpose the dogs were given a blanket to sniff, provided by the parents, which had been used by Madeleine."
So as I read that on the 4th the GNR had the blanket provided by the parents. As extra dogs arrived they had the same blanket and clothes for the new dogs arriving to scent from. Therefore they must have taken the blanket and clothing with them.
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https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
"During the afternoon of 4th May, more searches were carried out around Vila da Luz and were extended to a radius of approximately 600 metres, including the surroundings of the EN125 in the stretch closed to P da L.
At about 23.00 the extra teams that had been requested for reinforcement arrived (Officer Rosa with Oscar and Officer Martins with Fusco, both from the search and rescue unit and Officer Fernandes with Rex and Zarus from the tracking team).
After the officers had been updated about facts relating to the disappearance, they tried to reconstruct the route the girl might have taken with the two tracker dogs. For this purpose the dogs were given a blanket to sniff, provided by the parents, which had been used by Madeleine."
So as I read that on the 4th the GNR had the blanket provided by the parents. As extra dogs arrived they had the same blanket and clothes for the new dogs arriving to scent from. Therefore they must have taken the blanket and clothing with them.
I think I'll stick with the testimony of the people who actually handled the items.
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I think I'll stick with the testimony of the people who actually handled the items.
Are you implying there are inconsistencies in the GNR statements? I had a feeling there were, for it doesn't seem logical to pick up a towel a day later.
What statements are evidential to you?
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My friend who has trained dogs in the art of duck hunting etc says the cloth with the target scent would be handled carefully with tongs and then kept in a plastic bag and taken with the dog handlers to refresh the tracking dog's memory of the target scent.
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My friend who has trained dogs in the art of duck hunting etc says the cloth with the target scent would be handled carefully with tongs and then kept in a plastic bag and taken with the dog handlers to refresh the tracking dog's memory of the target scent.
The first set of dogs were patrol dogs. One had some training in tracking and he sniffed the pink blanket then followed the trail. The second set were tracker dogs from Lisbon and they got the towel. Being professional trackers that was kept in a bag for the dogs to sniff again.
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Are you implying there are inconsistencies in the GNR statements? I had a feeling there were, for it doesn't seem logical to pick up a towel a day later.
What statements are evidential to you?
There are reports by the bosses, which don't match the statements by those who actually did the work. I think the handlers are more likely to be right about what they used.
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I think I'll stick with the testimony of the people who actually handled the items.
I would like to think the items were taken into police custody, photographed, given an exhibit number and retained indefinitely.
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I would like to think the items were taken into police custody, photographed, given an exhibit number and retained indefinitely.
Perhaps you'd like to rethink in Portugal 2007 terms?
No CSI manual at the time.
There are no photos of the item(s) in the PJ Files.
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Perhaps you'd like to rethink in Portugal 2007 terms?
No CSI manual at the time.
There are no photos of the item(s) in the PJ Files.
Seems rather ironic given all the EU directives levelled at the financial services industry that PJ had no CSI manual.
According to the following Portugal has one of the lowest rates of intentional homicide:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
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Seems rather ironic given all the EU directives levelled at the financial services industry that PJ had no CSI manual.
According to the following Portugal has one of the lowest rates of intentional homicide:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Internal Portuguese matter. Nothing to do with the EU
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Seems rather ironic given all the EU directives levelled at the financial services industry that PJ had no CSI manual.
According to the following Portugal has one of the lowest rates of intentional homicide:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
But are the deaths being classified as accidental deaths or even suicides instead.
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Is that relevant?
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Is that relevant?
Yes I think so. Figures can be altered by reclassification.
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Yes I think so. Figures can be altered by reclassification.
And what impact has that got on the McCann case ?
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And what impact has that got on the McCann case ?
Maybe we should ask Holly as it was her who brought it up: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10879.msg547995#msg547995
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Internal Portuguese matter. Nothing to do with the EU
Well I don't see the difference? The EU have had a lot of sway on UK financial services rules and regs which were standardised across EU so why not with regard to policing ie insist on having a standarised approach with solving crime starting with a CSI manual? Especially bearing in mind the highest court of all member countries is the ECJ.
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Well I don't see the difference? The EU have had a lot of sway on UK financial services rules and regs which were standardised across EU so why not with regard to policing ie insist on having a standarised approach with solving crime starting with a CSI manual? Especially bearing in mind the highest court of all member countries is the ECJ.
The Eu is primary a trade and business organisation - it even has a central bank and makes regulations to control these sectors. The ECJ exists mainly to deal with trade disputes and doesn't have a role in criminal cases.
There is no central EU police force and so there are no EU -wide rules.
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The Eu is primary a trade and business organisation - it even has a central bank and makes regulations to control these sectors. The ECJ exists mainly to deal with trade disputes and doesn't have a role in criminal cases.
There is no central EU police force and so there are no EU -wide rules.
So why did Bamber along with others take his life tariff to the EU?
https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{%22dmdocnumber%22:[%22898535%22],%22itemid%22:[%22001-108610%22]}
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So why did Bamber along with others take his life tariff to the EU?
https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{%22dmdocnumber%22:[%22898535%22],%22itemid%22:[%22001-108610%22]}
You are confusing ECJ with ECHR. Totally different things. Check them out