UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Myster on January 28, 2020, 04:51:22 PM
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"Tomorrow night's the night!"...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7937965/Chillingly-accurate-reconstruction-moment-police-suspected-Jeremy-Bamber.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7937965/Chillingly-accurate-reconstruction-moment-police-suspected-Jeremy-Bamber.html)
But the funeral scene wasn't shot at St. Nicholas Church, Tolleshunt D'Arcy...
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7706661,0.7928066,3a,75y,68.92h,93.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-cIUUrWV6cyWrvkb0x5zAA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7706661,0.7928066,3a,75y,68.92h,93.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-cIUUrWV6cyWrvkb0x5zAA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
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Bamber’s claimed recently to not be watching the ITV drama but is there a possibility the prison have removed his TV to ensure he doesn’t create?
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Bamber’s claimed recently to not be watching the ITV drama but is there a possibility the prison have removed his TV to ensure he doesn’t create?
Is it known that he has a TV in prison ?
From having watched the first three episodes, I can't imagine that he would want to watch it, as it does him no favours. But I suppose one never knows!
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‘ They say the late Det Chief Insp Thomas “Taff” Jones — played by Line Of Duty’s Stephen Graham — has been unfairly portrayed as an aggressive bully who ruled out the killer, Jeremy Bamber, in favour of blaming his sister Sheila Caffell.
Essex Police Det Con Michael Clarke said: “A lot of people are very unhappy about the portrayal of Taff Jones. They are making him a scapegoat.”
He added: “It wasn’t until we started pulling in the evidence provided by Bamber’s girlfriend, Julie Mugford, and finding things wrong with Jeremy’s story, that things started to change.
“And Taff Jones’ mind was definitely changed.” The ITV drama, which continues tonight, tells the story of how Bamber, played by Freddie Fox, killed his family in 1985, then tried to pin the crime on mentally ill Sheila.
Ex-Det Sgt Ken Luxford added: “It is a character assassination of Taff.” Another detective, Len Jarman, revealed Taff was left a “broken man”.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/10840883/white-house-farm-cops-itv-drama/
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‘ They say the late Det Chief Insp Thomas “Taff” Jones — played by Line Of Duty’s Stephen Graham — has been unfairly portrayed as an aggressive bully who ruled out the killer, Jeremy Bamber, in favour of blaming his sister Sheila Caffell.
Essex Police Det Con Michael Clarke said: “A lot of people are very unhappy about the portrayal of Taff Jones. They are making him a scapegoat.”
He added: “It wasn’t until we started pulling in the evidence provided by Bamber’s girlfriend, Julie Mugford, and finding things wrong with Jeremy’s story, that things started to change.
“And Taff Jones’ mind was definitely changed.” The ITV drama, which continues tonight, tells the story of how Bamber, played by Freddie Fox, killed his family in 1985, then tried to pin the crime on mentally ill Sheila.
Ex-Det Sgt Ken Luxford added: “It is a character assassination of Taff.” Another detective, Len Jarman, revealed Taff was left a “broken man”.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/10840883/white-house-farm-cops-itv-drama/
So much for Taff believing Bamber innocent until the bitter end.
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Bamber’s claimed recently to not be watching the ITV drama but is there a possibility the prison have removed his TV to ensure he doesn’t create?
IMO he's watching it ok. He'll be crapping himself though because inmates don't take kindly to child murderers.
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I was under the impression that we never got to know either way what he thought as Jones died in a freak accident not that long after the murders. Was he fixing the aerial on his roof or something like that and fell?
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‘ They say the late Det Chief Insp Thomas “Taff” Jones — played by Line Of Duty’s Stephen Graham — has been unfairly portrayed as an aggressive bully who ruled out the killer, Jeremy Bamber, in favour of blaming his sister Sheila Caffell.
Essex Police Det Con Michael Clarke said: “A lot of people are very unhappy about the portrayal of Taff Jones. They are making him a scapegoat.”
He added: “It wasn’t until we started pulling in the evidence provided by Bamber’s girlfriend, Julie Mugford, and finding things wrong with Jeremy’s story, that things started to change.
“And Taff Jones’ mind was definitely changed.” The ITV drama, which continues tonight, tells the story of how Bamber, played by Freddie Fox, killed his family in 1985, then tried to pin the crime on mentally ill Sheila.
Ex-Det Sgt Ken Luxford added: “It is a character assassination of Taff.” Another detective, Len Jarman, revealed Taff was left a “broken man”.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/10840883/white-house-farm-cops-itv-drama/
Anyone with the slightest common sense who viewed Sheila lying on the bedroom floor with two gunshots to the neck and hardly a hair out of place would be suspicious. But Taff Jones was more concerned about his next round of golf to bother.
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I was under the impression that we never got to know either way what he thought as Jones died in a freak accident not that long after the murders. Was he fixing the aerial on his roof or something like that and fell?
Yep, he fell off the ladder.
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I was under the impression that we never got to know either way what he thought as Jones died in a freak accident not that long after the murders. Was he fixing the aerial on his roof or something like that and fell?
He was still alive when Bamber was arrested and interrogated, in fact he questioned him first. He died while Bamber was on remand.
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Yep, he fell off the ladder.
He was still alive when Bamber was arrested and interrogated, in fact he questioned him first. He died while Bamber was on remand.
Memorial...
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Anyone with the slightest common sense who viewed Sheila lying on the bedroom floor with two gunshots to the neck and hardly a hair out of place would be suspicious. But Taff Jones was more concerned about his next round of golf to bother.
Chief Sup Harris decided upon murder/suicide, long before DCI 'Taff' Jones even arrived at soc., and was supported in his decision by police surgeon Dr Craig. Both these individuals had many years experience and had precided over numerous murder investigations.
DCI Jones did not go off to play golf on 7th Aug. He went to a prearranged meeting at Chelmsford GPO with Chief Sup Harris.
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Anyone with the slightest common sense who viewed Sheila lying on the bedroom floor with two gunshots to the neck and hardly a hair out of place would be suspicious. But Taff Jones was more concerned about his next round of golf to bother.
Do you have any visual comparisons and/or text to indicate the difference in appearances between murder/suicide and murder?
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So much for Taff believing Bamber innocent until the bitter end.
Is there any concrete evidence DCI Jones changed his mind?
What about Chief Sup Harris?
Police surgeon Dr Ian Craig didn't change his mind. He told the jury he thought SC had taken her own life.
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Is there any concrete evidence DCI Jones changed his mind?
What about Chief Sup Harris?
Police surgeon Dr Ian Craig didn't change his mind. He told the jury he thought SC had taken her own life.
These individuals were obviously incompetent. Thank goodness that Stan Jones had some wit about him.
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These individuals were obviously incompetent. Thank goodness that Stan Jones had some wit about him.
If the individuals were incompetent then why didn't they face some disciplinary hearing or the like?
As Dr Vanezis said in his report DS Jones did not offer up anything of evidential value. Weeks later JB's fate was sealed by the silencer and to a lesser degree JM's testimony both of which DS Jones was involved in almost single handedly.
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I suppose because it's a team effort. It doesn't matter that the left back and the goalie let the side down because the lad up front produced the goods when it mattered.
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I suppose because it's a team effort. It doesn't matter that the left back and the goalie let the side down because the lad up front produced the goods when it mattered.
But unlike a game of footy where every millisecond of a game is overseen by a referee, officials, millions of spectators spectators and now VAR no one knows the history of the silencer or exactly what conversations took place between JM and DS Jones/the lad up front.
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Because we don't need to know. Because the lad up front in question is a police officer. With all the integrity and honesty that entails. It was excellent police work.
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Because we don't need to know. Because the lad up front in question is a police officer. With all the integrity and honesty that entails. It was excellent police work.
Of course we need transparency about chain of custody of exhibits and how witnesses are handled.
Police officers have an appalling record of corruption:
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/03/the-shocking-truth-about-police-corruption-in-britain/
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Of course there are some bad apples that tarnish their reputation. But as it stands, and even more so in 1985, the word of a policeman was seen as incorruptible, only in exceptional circumstances would a policeman's word be called into question.
the court had no reason to suspect that DS Jones was telling anything other than the truth, hence why his version of events was accepted.
And lest us forget that Julie's testimony also "had the ring of truth about it"
ps - I don't agree with the substance of the article, that police officers in this country have an appalling record of corruption. We are fortunate to have one of the best police forces in the world here, in my opinion.
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Of course there are some bad apples that tarnish their reputation. But as it stands, and even more so in 1985, the word of a policeman was seen as incorruptible, only in exceptional circumstances would a policeman's word be called into question.
the court had no reason to suspect that DS Jones was telling anything other than the truth, hence why his version of events was accepted.
And lest us forget that Julie's testimony also "had the ring of truth about it"
ps - I don't agree with the substance of the article, that police officers in this country have an appalling record of corruption. We are fortunate to have one of the best police forces in the world here, in my opinion.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Midlands_Serious_Crime_Squad
Corruption and wrongdoing often take decades to uncover as with the above and Hillsborough.
Transparency protects all hence PACE act 85/86 which JB did not benefit from.
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It's always easy to blame the police after the event isn't it? Hillsborough being the classic example. The families understandably wanted justice for their loved ones, and the chief of policing that day got done on a technicality, for doing something that most other people in his shoes would have done.
But the tragedy wasn't solely the fault of the police, far from it...
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It's always easy to blame the police after the event isn't it? Hillsborough being the classic example. The families understandably wanted justice for their loved ones, and the chief of policing that day got done on a technicality, for doing something that most other people in his shoes would have done.
But the tragedy wasn't solely the fault of the police, far from it...
There are rotten apples in every barrel, the justice system and the police are not excluded.
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It's always easy to blame the police after the event isn't it? Hillsborough being the classic example. The families understandably wanted justice for their loved ones, and the chief of policing that day got done on a technicality, for doing something that most other people in his shoes would have done.
But the tragedy wasn't solely the fault of the police, far from it...
It's not a question of blaming when the police have been found responsible for wrongdoing eg in the case of Hillsborough tampering with evidence.
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The Hillsborough disaster was not solely the fault of the police, far from it. But that is a topic for another thread.
In spite of the occasional bad apple, a policeman's word remains his bond. There is no reason to question what DS Jones uncovered in the Bamber case. It was excellent detective work.
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Midlands_Serious_Crime_Squad (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Midlands_Serious_Crime_Squad)
Corruption and wrongdoing often take decades to uncover as with the above and Hillsborough.
Transparency protects all hence PACE act 85/86 which JB did not benefit from.
Essex Police were at the forefront though...
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Did Bamber ask his cousin David Boutflour to remove all the firearms, ammunition, etc. from WHF, or is that just another lie?...
https://www.itv.com/news/2020-01-29/jeremy-bamber-white-house-farm-killer-claims-innocence-in-previously-unseen-letter/ (https://www.itv.com/news/2020-01-29/jeremy-bamber-white-house-farm-killer-claims-innocence-in-previously-unseen-letter/)
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Didn’t Aunt Agatha once say on blue she had one of Bambers shotguns? She posted a list of things he’d handed out to her which included his ‘pony tail’
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According to Scott Lomax
SC Lomax
@SCLomax
Julie tried to kill Jeremy Bamber and told him that if she couldn't have him, no one would. She then reported him to the police.
9:51 PM · Jan 29, 2020·Twitter for iPad
https://mobile.twitter.com/SCLomax/status/1222638424496267264
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https://mobile.twitter.com/babynewt_/status/1222632253391548416
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Michelle Diskin Bates 🎀 Retweeted
Jeremy Bamber
@JBamberFacebook
1h
#WhiteHouseFarm
In 2002 Sheila's DNA was NOT found in a silencer, but an unknown males was. Who did not provide a DNA sample??
Robert Boutflour
@Bambertweets
@FreeBamberNow
@jbcampaignltd
https://mobile.twitter.com/JBamberFacebook/status/1222621021729185792
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According to Scott Lomax
SC Lomax
@SCLomax
Julie tried to kill Jeremy Bamber and told him that if she couldn't have him, no one would. She then reported him to the police.
9:51 PM · Jan 29, 2020·Twitter for iPad
https://mobile.twitter.com/SCLomax/status/1222638424496267264
She didn't try to kill him! How ridiculous!
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Campaign team being castigated @)(++(* @)(++(*
https://mobile.twitter.com/hashtag/WhiteHouseFarm?src=hashtag_click
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heh, heh. Heartwarming stuff.
I like this one from @Herasometimes
"I don't care if he did it or not - life in prison seems reasonable for putting that dog to sleep for no reason"
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She didn't try to kill him! How ridiculous!
Of course she didn’t but they’ll say anything inflammatory and defamatory to boost their audience
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Of course she didn’t but they’ll say anything inflammatory and defamatory to boost their audience
SC Lomax
@SCLomax
1h
The drama is poorly researched. If you are interested in the facts check out this book https://amazon.co.uk/Jeremy-Bamber-Almost-Beyond-Belief/dp/0750994711/ref=dp_ob_title_bk… #WhiteHouseFarm #Jeremybamber
https://mobile.twitter.com/SCLomax/status/1222634636788084744
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JackieD here http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10009.msg475390.html#msg475390
‘Let’s hope we see a lot more detail about Julie as the main prosecution witness.
The way they portrayed Julie is completely wrong. You couldn’t imagine the person on the tv carrying out the cheque fraud
So wrong
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
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Blimey O'Reilly. The state of Stan's lawn.
8(8-))
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The inaccuracies in this drama are many. They didn't even show Bamber's assault on Julie after she smashed the mirror in Sheila's apartment. I sometimes wonder just how much research really went into this comedy of errors?
The portrayal of Stan Jones makes me laugh out loud every time. Poor Stan, I hope his wife isn't insulted by the portrayal.
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Blimey O'Reilly. The state of Stan's lawn.
8(8-))
If Stan ate any more meat pies, he'd have a coronary and Team Taff would have won the Ryder cup.
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Episode 4 for young David and others who can't afford a TV licence...
https://www.itv.com/hub/white-house-farm/2a5719a0004 (https://www.itv.com/hub/white-house-farm/2a5719a0004)
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SC Lomax
@SCLomax
1h
The drama is poorly researched. If you are interested in the facts check out this book https://amazon.co.uk/Jeremy-Bamber-Almost-Beyond-Belief/dp/0750994711/ref=dp_ob_title_bk (https://amazon.co.uk/Jeremy-Bamber-Almost-Beyond-Belief/dp/0750994711/ref=dp_ob_title_bk)… #WhiteHouseFarm #Jeremybamber
https://mobile.twitter.com/SCLomax/status/1222634636788084744 (https://mobile.twitter.com/SCLomax/status/1222634636788084744)
Another hack jumping on the Bamber binwagon and flogging a potboiler.
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The inaccuracies in this drama are many. They didn't even show Bamber's assault on Julie after she smashed the mirror in Sheila's apartment. I sometimes wonder just how much research really went into this comedy of errors?
The portrayal of Stan Jones makes me laugh out loud every time. Poor Stan, I hope his wife isn't insulted by the portrayal.
If Stan Jones was on garden leave why was he called back to interview J Mugford?.
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If Stan Jones was on garden leave why was he called back to interview J Mugford?.
When you've got a fish on the hook, you make sure it goes in the keepnet.
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Was it Mike T who first started campaigning publicly for Bamber? How did the Bamber forum come about?
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He's 'avin a larf and on a wind-up... and be back to his usual cop-hating self tomorrow.
He's just desperate for attention, like a toddler. It's a shame that he hasn't got anyone who cares enough to tell him to shut the fook up and do some hoovering.
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If Stan Jones was on garden leave why was he called back to interview J Mugford?.
Because he was the DS in charge of the case.
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If Stan Jones was on garden leave why was he called back to interview J Mugford?.
In reality I don't think he was on gardening leave.
DCI Jones was replaced by a DCI Ainsley.
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In reality I don't think he was on gardening leave.
DCI Jones was replaced by a DCI Ainsley.
Good job he got the bell, or there would've been nothing left of his lawn...
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Good job he got the bell, or there would've been nothing left of his lawn...
To be honest this murderer would have got off scot-free had Stan not pursued his suspicions. His incompetent superiors were hellbent on leaving it as a murder suicide. Ann Eaton is to be commended too for her perseverance but then she knew Jeremy Bamber was a thieving little shit.
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Good job he got the bell, or there would've been nothing left of his lawn...
@)(++(*
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To be honest this murderer would have got off scot-free had Stan not pursued his suspicions. His incompetent superiors were hellbent on leaving it as a murder suicide. Ann Eaton is to be commended too for her perseverance but then she knew Jeremy Bamber was a thieving little shit.
Nothing wrong with pursuing suspicions but did it go beyond this?
The senior officers all thought it was murder/suicide. The police surgeon thought it was murder suicide. The pathologist found nothing to contradict the murder/suicide theory. None of the firearms officers expressed any doubt at the time. The only dissenter was DS Jones who was heavily involved with the evidence that convicted JB: silencer and JM's testimony.
With regard to JB thieving, the chief prosecution witness was also up to her neck in petty crime and the main protagonists come across as greedy and grasping. Babs Wilson made a formal complaint to EP re PE over financial impropriety at WHF.
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Was it Mike T who first started campaigning publicly for Bamber? How did the Bamber forum come about?
Mike was at one time JB's 'McKenzie' man.
I think the docs needed a home and we're in danger of being lost. Mike was able to take ownership and set up the forum.
I don't really think JB's case is something you can campaign about as such. Campaign about what and to whom? The only way JB's conviction will ever be overturned is by new forensic evidence forcing the hand of 3 appeal court judges.
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Mike was at one time JB's 'McKenzie' man.
I think the docs needed a home and we're in danger of being lost. Mike was able to take ownership and set up the forum.
So Mike had the files before the CT? Where does Aunt Agatha fit in; was she never given case files by Bamber? I know he was/is allegedly godfather to her twins
She posted a list of items Bamber ‘handed out to her’ - did the list include a gun?
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Nothing wrong with pursuing suspicions but did it go beyond this?
Beyond in what way? Holly If you know something about DS Jones that I don't please can you share it. I was under the impression he was a good, honest police officer. Heroic even, for his actions in securing the case against Bamber in the face of incompetence from his team mates.
Thus a little more information needed before setting about besmirching his name.
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Mike was at one time JB's 'McKenzie' man.
I think the docs needed a home and we're in danger of being lost. Mike was able to take ownership and set up the forum.
So the CT first copied the documents from Mike T via the forum?
Trudi Benjamin Retweeted
TellTheTruthJulie
@julie_tell
21h
#WhiteHouseFarm
@FreeBamberNow
@jbcampaignltd
@JBamberFacebook
Quote Tweet
TellTheTruthJulie
@julie_tell
21h
Love it when the #JeremyBamber trolls come out to play. We've been here years, long before some poorly researched, badly acted tv drama and we'll be here until this massive #miscarriageofjustice is righted. But crack on. You're doing our job for us, sparking public interest.
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I don't really think JB's case is something you can campaign about as such. Campaign about what and to whom?
?
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So Mike had the files before the CT? Where does Aunt Agatha fit in; was she never given case files by Bamber? I know he was/is allegedly godfather to her twins
She posted a list of items Bamber ‘handed out to her’ - did the list include a gun?
Afaik AA befriended JB in the early days.
I don't know when the docs were first handed to JB. Maybe it was post his 1989 appeal.
There was some info on 'official' site as to how the CT came about.
CT have a lot of docs but I think MT has some they don't and vice vesra.
AA would need a firearms licence to hold firearms.
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Afaik AA befriended JB in the early days.
I don't know when the docs were first handed to JB. Maybe it was post his 1989 appeal.
There was some info on 'official' site as to how the CT came about.
CT have a lot of docs but I think MT has some they don't and vice vesra.
AA would need a firearms licence to hold firearms.
AA made claim on blue of having numerous items Bamber had given her to ‘look after’ - did the list include a gun?
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Beyond in what way? Holly If you know something about DS Jones that I don't please can you share it. I was under the impression he was a good, honest police officer. Heroic even, for his actions in securing the case against Bamber in the face of incompetence from his team mates.
Thus a little more information needed before setting about besmirching his name.
As depicted in the drama, DS Jones knew he was going to Oak Farm to collect an exhibit which might have been integral to the case so why go along empty handed? Why not take an exhibit bag? And why then sit drinking whisky with Peter Eaton which wasn't depicted in the drama but is recorded in Anne Eaton's testimony?
Totally unacceptable that an exhibit that underpins a life tarrif was handled in such a manner.
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AA made claim on blue of having numerous items Bamber had given her to ‘look after’ - did the list include a gun?
Not Afaik.
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Not Afaik.
Is that a guess or a definitive no she didn’t have one of his guns?
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Is that a guess or a definitive no she didn’t have one of his guns?
Don't recall her mentioning a gun.
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Don't recall her mentioning a gun.
She removed or edited her posts re the list
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White House Farm highlights the *other* crime taking place
“Jeremy Bamber was not involved in the making of White House Farm and he has branded it a disgrace. But in the series, which is "based on extensive research, interviews and published accounts", what we get is a portrait of coercive control.
https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/a30712041/white-house-farm-tv-murders-julie-mugford/
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As depicted in the drama, DS Jones knew he was going to Oak Farm to collect an exhibit which might have been integral to the case so why go along empty handed? Why not take an exhibit bag? And why then sit drinking whisky with Peter Eaton which wasn't depicted in the drama but is recorded in Anne Eaton's testimony?
Totally unacceptable that an exhibit that underpins a life tarrif was handled in such a manner.
Sadly I couldn't see the TV drama because i'm in Denmark at the moment. I didn't know he forgot to take an exhibit bag, not ideal but hardly a bent copper going "beyond". Should Bamber have been freed on a technicality because Jones forgot an exhibit bag? that doesn't seem fair either.
As for having a drink with Peter Eaton, it all sounds perfectly normal and legal. It's not as if they went on a crack binge.. Having said that, it's the kind of thing that wouldn't happen now
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Sadly I couldn't see the TV drama because i'm in Denmark at the moment. I didn't know he forgot to take an exhibit bag, not ideal but hardly a bent copper going "beyond". Should Bamber have been freed on a technicality because Jones forgot an exhibit bag? that doesn't seem fair either.
As for having a drink with Peter Eaton, it all sounds perfectly normal and legal. It's not as if they went on a crack binge.. Having said that, it's the kind of thing that wouldn't happen now
Technicality? It hasn't yet been evidenced the drawback phenomenon takes place with the Anshutz rifle,, Eley hollow nosed subsonic bullets and the Parker Hale sound moderator. All we have is an officer collecting the silencer from JB's relatives which then went back and forth to the lab and cyanoacrylate fuming chamber until a blood flake was found which matched SC's blood groups. *%87
I don't know what the police training manual said about consuming alcohol whilst on duty and in the company of potential witnesses? According to AE he stayed some considerable time.
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Sadly I couldn't see the TV drama because i'm in Denmark at the moment. I didn't know he forgot to take an exhibit bag, not ideal but hardly a bent copper going "beyond". Should Bamber have been freed on a technicality because Jones forgot an exhibit bag? that doesn't seem fair either.
As for having a drink with Peter Eaton, it all sounds perfectly normal and legal. It's not as if they went on a crack binge.. Having said that, it's the kind of thing that wouldn't happen now
You'll have to dole out some Danish dosh for it, steve...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/White-House-Farm-Murders-DVD/dp/B0828HHY5W/ref=pd_lutyp_crtyp_simh_2_6/257-9643226-9454669?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0828HHY5W&pd_rd_r=8b6c2d2c-2513-46f9-9c85-b57a2a450558&pd_rd_w=Xm51u&pd_rd_wg=FPpDy&pf_rd_p=7e064437-af76-4a47-8aae-7f4fb5fc88c6&pf_rd_r=MQEJ7ECCSB4BQW4GQFKT&psc=1&refRID=MQEJ7ECCSB4BQW4GQFKT (https://www.amazon.co.uk/White-House-Farm-Murders-DVD/dp/B0828HHY5W/ref=pd_lutyp_crtyp_simh_2_6/257-9643226-9454669?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0828HHY5W&pd_rd_r=8b6c2d2c-2513-46f9-9c85-b57a2a450558&pd_rd_w=Xm51u&pd_rd_wg=FPpDy&pf_rd_p=7e064437-af76-4a47-8aae-7f4fb5fc88c6&pf_rd_r=MQEJ7ECCSB4BQW4GQFKT&psc=1&refRID=MQEJ7ECCSB4BQW4GQFKT)
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As depicted in the drama, DS Jones knew he was going to Oak Farm to collect an exhibit which might have been integral to the case so why go along empty handed? Why not take an exhibit bag? And why then sit drinking whisky with Peter Eaton which wasn't depicted in the drama but is recorded in Anne Eaton's testimony?
Totally unacceptable that an exhibit that underpins a life tarrif was handled in such a manner.
Holly's view of Stan the Man... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p6YeQ1djbM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p6YeQ1djbM)
Your recruitment drive isn't bearing much fruit, Holly! Is it because they've read your hefty intellectual tome - "Easy Crime-solving for DUMMIES" - and given it a unanimous 1* for effort?
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Odd that Bamber supporter Susan Penhaligon has remained strangely silent about her fellow thespians' brilliant portrayals.
Why no praise for Alexa Davies who carries off Julie M's secretive worry and concern about her boyfriend's deceit to a T?
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BAFTA Awards here we come.
Poor Rich Harry missed out on a corker 8**8:/: ...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-7946849/Cressida-Bonas-dazzles-black-jumpsuit-reunites-White-House-Farm-star-Freddie-Fox.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-7946849/Cressida-Bonas-dazzles-black-jumpsuit-reunites-White-House-Farm-star-Freddie-Fox.html)
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The pictures that Jeremy found of Sheila in more graphic pose when emptying her flat did not Colin know of them?.
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The pictures that Jeremy found of Sheila in more graphic pose when emptying her flat did not Colin know of them?.
I don't think so. Sheila may have kept them hidden at WHF at the time she and Colin were married and lived elsewhere. Whilst living in London, Sheila asked a model friend called Jilly if she could borrow her back garden for a photo-shoot to which she agreed. An Australian freelance photographer took a series which were intended for mens' glamour magazines of the day, 'Mayfair' and 'Penthouse' (I remember them well 8(8-)) ).
The shoot went too far and the results were allegedly very raunchy and explicit. On viewing them, Sheila was horrified, so she asked for their return before any were published. These must have been the ones that Jeremy Bamber found at Sheila's Morshead Mansions flat.
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Odd that Bamber supporter Susan Penhaligon has remained strangely silent about her fellow thespians' brilliant portrayals.
Why no praise for Alexa Davies who carries off Julie M's secretive worry and concern about her boyfriend's deceit to a T?
Bamber & Julie do look similar to the real people.
However no one else in the drams looks like the actual people. Believe they got Stan Jones mixed up with Bews. Stan was not overweight. Didn't AE have black hair?
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Mike was at one time JB's 'McKenzie' man.
I think the docs needed a home and we're in danger of being lost. Mike was able to take ownership and set up the forum.
Ngb1066 (April 2012)
‘Mike has offered to give Jeremy's legal team full access to the documents he has in his possession. These documents have only been preserved because Mike agreed to look after them when Jeremy's original solicitors were no longer prepared to retain them in their archive store (this is standard practice for solicitors) and the documents would otherwise have been destroyed.
When this case is referred to the Court of Appeal (as I believe it will be) I am sure that all of these documents will be carefully considered in preparation for the appeal, along with the other documents which the defence team hold.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2599.msg82830.html#msg82830
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I agree that if a photograph of Sheila on the bed surfaces it could be very important for the defence.
There may be material in the documents held by Mike which assists in the preparation of the appeal.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2599.msg82840.html#msg82840
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Technicality? It hasn't yet been evidenced the drawback phenomenon takes place with the Anshutz rifle,, Eley hollow nosed subsonic bullets and the Parker Hale sound moderator. All we have is an officer collecting the silencer from JB's relatives which then went back and forth to the lab and cyanoacrylate fuming chamber until a blood flake was found which matched SC's blood groups. *%87
I don't know what the police training manual said about consuming alcohol whilst on duty and in the company of potential witnesses? According to AE he stayed some considerable time.
"All we have" is all we needed. Namely an officer unmarked at the back stick to nod home the late winner.
I'm sorry but I can't see that Jones has done much wrong, forgot to bring an evidence bag and had a wee dram with Pete Eaton - they were all at it in 1985
There must be more chance of a JM recant than any new forensic evidence that will overturn the conviction.
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You'll have to dole out some Danish dosh for it, steve...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/White-House-Farm-Murders-DVD/dp/B0828HHY5W/ref=pd_lutyp_crtyp_simh_2_6/257-9643226-9454669?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0828HHY5W&pd_rd_r=8b6c2d2c-2513-46f9-9c85-b57a2a450558&pd_rd_w=Xm51u&pd_rd_wg=FPpDy&pf_rd_p=7e064437-af76-4a47-8aae-7f4fb5fc88c6&pf_rd_r=MQEJ7ECCSB4BQW4GQFKT&psc=1&refRID=MQEJ7ECCSB4BQW4GQFKT (https://www.amazon.co.uk/White-House-Farm-Murders-DVD/dp/B0828HHY5W/ref=pd_lutyp_crtyp_simh_2_6/257-9643226-9454669?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0828HHY5W&pd_rd_r=8b6c2d2c-2513-46f9-9c85-b57a2a450558&pd_rd_w=Xm51u&pd_rd_wg=FPpDy&pf_rd_p=7e064437-af76-4a47-8aae-7f4fb5fc88c6&pf_rd_r=MQEJ7ECCSB4BQW4GQFKT&psc=1&refRID=MQEJ7ECCSB4BQW4GQFKT)
Thank you Myster. Judging from the comments on here about the dramatisation, I will swerve it until it either appears on Danish TV or in a bargain bucket in some dreadful pound shop.
At least even they managed to arrive at the correct conclusion of events.
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I caught up with Episode 4 last night. IMO, very good acting, and good photography, but I don't know the details of the case well enough to always know what is true and what is "drama".
I am unlikely to ever form a worthy opinion as to whether Jeremy is guilty or innocent, as , unlike some of you, I am too lazy and uninterested to get involved with ballistics evidence (I have never even seen a loaded gun, to be honest). I am more interested in the characters. Jeremy comes across as a somewhat objectionable young man, IMO. Certainly not the sort of person I would have wanted as a boyfriend, however good looking he might have been! Trouble is (and also my opinion), some of the other characters come across as objectionable too. Had better not mention names.
The series (I assume) aims to portray a guilty Jeremy. For me, it doesn't necessarily, nor does it make me think he is definitely innocent. it just makes me ask more questions. Oh well, I'm doing plenty of background reading, so at least I am learning something.
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Good morning Mrs Wah.
Please see attached link to the full court transcript from 1986, for your perusal. It contains everything you need to know about the case unlike independent books which often have their own agenda.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
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Good morning Mrs Wah.
Please see attached link to the full court transcript from 1986, for your perusal. It contains everything you need to know about the case unlike independent books which often have their own agenda.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
Thank you very much Steve. I have to say that some of my fellow posters have been very helpful to me!
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No bother Mrs wah, here is another link to an excellent article by someone who was drawn to the case looking for a miscarriage of justice, only to become resolutely convinced of his guilt.
The original article is 10 years old and has been taken down now so I post a link to the page from this site where somebody has cut and pasted it in it's entirety (over several posts)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=922.0
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Good morning Mrs Wah.
Please see attached link to the full court transcript from 1986, for your perusal. It contains everything you need to know about the case unlike independent books which often have their own agenda.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
Hi Steve T, that actually the 2002 appeal transcript. Don't think there is a full transcript of the trial available.
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"All we have" is all we needed. Namely an officer unmarked at the back stick to nod home the late winner.
I'm sorry but I can't see that Jones has done much wrong, forgot to bring an evidence bag and had a wee dram with Pete Eaton - they were all at it in 1985
There must be more chance of a JM recant than any new forensic evidence that will overturn the conviction.
Yes it was all the prosecution needed to nod home the late winner but many question whether the hand of God featured.
JB was convicted based on 20th century policing and forensics. Science and technology has moved on leaps and bounds both of which will assist JB in a successful 3rd appeal.
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Hi Steve T, that actually the 2002 appeal transcript. Don't think there is a full transcript of the trial available.
It is indeed-----but its very interesting!
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Yet another interview with Freddie Fox and Mark Addy... http://dramaquarterly.com/beyond-the-headlines/ (http://dramaquarterly.com/beyond-the-headlines/)
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I caught up with Episode 4 last night. IMO, very good acting, and good photography, but I don't know the details of the case well enough to always know what is true and what is "drama".
I am unlikely to ever form a worthy opinion as to whether Jeremy is guilty or innocent, as , unlike some of you, I am too lazy and uninterested to get involved with ballistics evidence (I have never even seen a loaded gun, to be honest). I am more interested in the characters. Jeremy comes across as a somewhat objectionable young man, IMO. Certainly not the sort of person I would have wanted as a boyfriend, however good looking he might have been! Trouble is (and also my opinion), some of the other characters come across as objectionable too. Had better not mention names.
The series (I assume) aims to portray a guilty Jeremy. For me, it doesn't necessarily, nor does it make me think he is definitely innocent. it just makes me ask more questions. Oh well, I'm doing plenty of background reading, so at least I am learning something.
JB's conviction is undoubtedly underpinned by the blood/silencer evidence. I would day 95% plus of what is discussed here and elsewhere is irrelevant albeit many find it interesting.
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Yes it was all the prosecution needed to nod home the late winner but many question whether the hand of God featured.
JB was convicted based on 20th century policing and forensics. Science and technology has moved on leaps and bounds both of which will assist JB in a successful 3rd appeal.
Many would argue that VAR is a step backward, not forwards and has ruined the essence of the game. Surely the hand of god has more chance of being overturned 34 years later than DS Jones' late winner
His latest attempt at an appeal was thrown out as recently as 2012. Anything new that came to light could more easily shore up the safety of the conviction rather than cast doubt on it.
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White House Farm highlights the *other* crime taking place
“Jeremy Bamber was not involved in the making of White House Farm and he has branded it a disgrace. But in the series, which is "based on extensive research, interviews and published accounts", what we get is a portrait of coercive control.
https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/a30712041/white-house-farm-tv-murders-julie-mugford/
‘Sally killed Richard in 2010 after years of being controlled and humiliated by him. At the time of her conviction, ‘coercive control’ was not a crime in England and Wales, only becoming recognised in law as a form of domestic abuse in 2015. Coercive control is a way of understanding domestic violence which foregrounds the psychological abuse and can involve manipulation, degradation, gaslighting (using mind games to make the other person doubt their sanity) and generally monitoring and controlling the person’s day-to-day life such as their friends, activities and clothing. This often leads to the abused becoming isolated and dependent on the abuser. It was dramatised very well in Helen’s storyline in Radio 4’s The Archer’s back in 2016.
https://www.justiceforwomen.org.uk/sally-challen-appeal
Bamber, through some of his supporters and his CT, has demonstrated how he uses ‘coercive control’ to get people to do what he wants
Trudi Benjamin at the graveside is one example https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3472521/Mass-murder-Jeremy-Bamber-sends-supporter-read-bizarre-rant-grave-parents-killed-blaming-sister-murdered-mass-killing.html
When Adrian Prouts guilt was exposed I made the same mistake people like Trudi Benjamin are making; I (wrongly) directed my annoyance at Debbie Garlick.
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JB's conviction is undoubtedly underpinned by the blood/silencer evidence. I would day 95% plus of what is discussed here and elsewhere is irrelevant albeit many find it interesting.
I bet Julie's testimony influenced the jury too-------rightly or wrongly.
What I do wonder about is this: there were two people who could have committed the murders. If Jeremy did it, it was down to wickedness and greed. If Sheila did it, it was because she was very ill, and therefore, she cannot really be blamed. I think that in a crime as ghastly as this one, people would want to see somebody actually brought to justice. I wonder how much this affected how the police, the relatives and friends, the jury etc viewed Jeremy , whose behaviour after the murders certainly did him no favours, and who appeared to be a rather unpleasant young man (IMO, anyway). Just a thought.
This must have been a particularly unusual and appalling crime for EP to deal with, and I find it difficult to believe they messed it up. I would have thought they would have taken extra care, but who knows------.
Off out tonight---and NOT to celebrate Brexit!
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Yes it was all the prosecution needed to nod home the late winner but many question whether the hand of God featured.
JB was convicted based on 20th century policing and forensics. Science and technology has moved on leaps and bounds both of which will assist JB in a successful 3rd appeal.
Or keep him where he belongs.
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I caught up with Episode 4 last night. IMO, very good acting, and good photography, but I don't know the details of the case well enough to always know what is true and what is "drama".
I am unlikely to ever form a worthy opinion as to whether Jeremy is guilty or innocent, as , unlike some of you, I am too lazy and uninterested to get involved with ballistics evidence (I have never even seen a loaded gun, to be honest). I am more interested in the characters. Jeremy comes across as a somewhat objectionable young man, IMO. Certainly not the sort of person I would have wanted as a boyfriend, however good looking he might have been! Trouble is (and also my opinion), some of the other characters come across as objectionable too. Had better not mention names.
The series (I assume) aims to portray a guilty Jeremy. For me, it doesn't necessarily, nor does it make me think he is definitely innocent. it just makes me ask more questions. Oh well, I'm doing plenty of background reading, so at least I am learning something.
I don't necessarily see the series as portraying JB as guilty. If the portrayal of him finding the pictures of Sheila in graphic pose and rubbing Colins nose in it with a kind of I know but you ain't gonna is correct then he was a manipulative barsteward.
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Many would argue that VAR is a step backward, not forwards and has ruined the essence of the game. Surely the hand of god has more chance of being overturned 34 years later than DS Jones' late winner
His latest attempt at an appeal was thrown out as recently as 2012. Anything new that came to light could more easily shore up the safety of the conviction rather than cast doubt on it.
The hand of God is transparent and we all know it involved foul play. The blood/silencer offers no such transparency and is still all very much to play for. I believe I'm on the winning team.
The 2012 tests were opinion based. I believe it is now possible to undertake tests that are irrefutable.
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A team of one, that is... the other ten have changed sides.
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The hand of God is transparent and we all know it involved foul play. The blood/silencer offers no such transparency and is still all very much to play for. I believe I'm on the winning team.
The 2012 tests were opinion based. I believe it is now possible to undertake tests that are irrefutable.
Correct me if I'm wrong but all bullets fired met their target,a cold calculating shooting,was Sheila with her illness capable?
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Absolutely not... just ask Colin.
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One of the first first four shots to NB according to TV last night went through his tongue how did he speak when he made the supposed phone call to JB?
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I bet Julie's testimony influenced the jury too-------rightly or wrongly.
What I do wonder about is this: there were two people who could have committed the murders. If Jeremy did it, it was down to wickedness and greed. If Sheila did it, it was because she was very ill, and therefore, she cannot really be blamed. I think that in a crime as ghastly as this one, people would want to see somebody actually brought to justice. I wonder how much this affected how the police, the relatives and friends, the jury etc viewed Jeremy , whose behaviour after the murders certainly did him no favours, and who appeared to be a rather unpleasant young man (IMO, anyway). Just a thought.
This must have been a particularly unusual and appalling crime for EP to deal with, and I find it difficult to believe they messed it up. I would have thought they would have taken extra care, but who knows------.
Off out tonight---and NOT to celebrate Brexit!
I understand JM's testimony came with some sort of warning from the judge over its reliability. I guess at this moment in time we don't really know what impact it had with jurors. Jury's questions to the judge centered around the blood/silencer and only undermining this evidence in a very significant way can assist JB at this stage of the game.
I've just cracked open a bottle of strong Belgium beer but likewise not to celebrate Brexit 8(8-))
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One of the first first four shots to NB according to TV last night went through his tongue how did he speak when he made the supposed phone call to JB?
Dr. Vanezis stated that Nevill would have been incapable of coherent speech. Besides, blood would have been sprayed over the telephone, handset and worktop had he even attempted to do so.
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Or keep him where he belongs.
Preliminaries suggest not.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but all bullets fired met their target,a cold calculating shooting,was Sheila with her illness capable?
What was the definition of target?
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One of the first first four shots to NB according to TV last night went through his tongue how did he speak when he made the supposed phone call to JB?
The physical evidence by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks places NB downstairs with the perp going upstairs and opening fire on June in bed. NB then went upstairs and sustained his facial gunshot wounds on the landing stairs. He then turned and sustained two further gunshot wounds to his rear before returning to the kitchen with the perp in hot pursuit where he sustained 4 fatal gunshot wounds to the head.
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Dr. Vanezis stated that Nevill would have been incapable of coherent speech. Besides, blood would have been sprayed over the telephone, handset and worktop had he even attempted to do so.
Indeed, plus he would have been leafing through the yellow pages simultaneously looking for the local constabularies number instead of just dialling 999
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The physical evidence by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks places NB downstairs with the perp going upstairs and opening fire on June in bed. NB then went upstairs and sustained his facial gunshot wounds on the landing stairs. He then turned and sustained two further gunshot wounds to his rear before returning to the kitchen with the perp in hot pursuit where he sustained 4 fatal gunshot wounds to the head.
Is this all from IA discussions?
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Indeed, plus he would have been leafing through the yellow pages simultaneously looking for the local constabularies number instead of just dialling 999
Ah, but he wasn't sure about their 'system' @)(++(* @)(++(*
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The hand of God is transparent and we all know it involved foul play. The blood/silencer offers no such transparency and is still all very much to play for. I believe I'm on the winning team.
The 2012 tests were opinion based. I believe it is now possible to undertake tests that are irrefutable.
The silencer was discovered by a police officer, it's all totally transparent and above board. Nothing to see here.
By the way I thought the silencer no longer existed as an exhibit, post 1996? what kind of tests ?
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I bet Julie's testimony influenced the jury too-------rightly or wrongly.
What I do wonder about is this: there were two people who could have committed the murders. If Jeremy did it, it was down to wickedness and greed. If Sheila did it, it was because she was very ill, and therefore, she cannot really be blamed. I think that in a crime as ghastly as this one, people would want to see somebody actually brought to justice. I wonder how much this affected how the police, the relatives and friends, the jury etc viewed Jeremy , whose behaviour after the murders certainly did him no favours, and who appeared to be a rather unpleasant young man (IMO, anyway). Just a thought.
This must have been a particularly unusual and appalling crime for EP to deal with, and I find it difficult to believe they messed it up. I would have thought they would have taken extra care, but who knows------.
Off out tonight---and NOT to celebrate Brexit!
Forgot to say White House Farm is the only peacetime mass shooting in UK unwitnessed by numerous others so yes all were out of their depths.
And yes everyone had something to gain by JB's conviction whether emotionally, financially or absolving self of crimes.
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The silencer was discovered by a police officer, it's all totally transparent and above board. Nothing to see here.
By the way I thought the silencer no longer existed as an exhibit, post 1996? what kind of tests ?
No it wasn't discovered by a police officer. It was discovered by JB's extended adoptive family who benefitted financially from his conviction.
I believe the only surviving exhibits are the silencer and rifle. However the new tests do not require either. The new tests are my intellectual property.
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sorry, that's correct. But nevertheless they had their suspicions and after understandably undertaking their own search, reported the silencer to the law at the earliest opportunity.
I still think you would be better off writing a letter to Julie Mugford but good luck with your tests
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sorry, that's correct. But nevertheless they had their suspicions and after understandably undertaking their own search, reported the silencer to the law at the earliest opportunity.
I still think you would be better off writing a letter to Julie Mugford but good luck with your tests
The relatives did not report the silencer to the law at the earliest opportunity. They found it on 10th August at WHF and took it to Oak Farm where they carried out an inspection and then reported it to the law on 11th Aug. DS Jones then arrived at Oak Farm on 12th Aug without an exhibit bag. Instead he improvised with the inner tube of a kitchen roll. Then instead of hurrying back to the station he spent some considerable time with Peter Eaton drinking whisky handing it in the following day. Even then DS Jones circumvented procedures by entering it in to to the wrong property book meaning the exhibit did not undergo the sort of scrutiny it would ordinarily have done due to the way in which it was found.
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Naturally they wanted to ensure they were not wasting police time, so once they were sure they notified the police at the earliest opportunity.
It's unfair to smear DS Jones like that, procedures in the 80's were not as stringent as they are today and he did nothing out of the ordinary. Police officers are human and I don't see that he compromised the murder investigation by having a whiskey with Pete Eaton. He took care to wrap the exhibit in something and made a clerical error back at the station. Nothing to see here.
If I wanted to free Bamber, I really think the correct path is persuading Julie Mugford to recant.
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What was the definition of target?
Five dead.
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Five dead.
Can't argue with that. Yes, there were wild shots but they all hit, it's like someone wanted to make us think, someone had gone crazy with a gun.
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The physical evidence by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks places NB downstairs with the perp going upstairs and opening fire on June in bed. NB then went upstairs and sustained his facial gunshot wounds on the landing stairs. He then turned and sustained two further gunshot wounds to his rear before returning to the kitchen with the perp in hot pursuit where he sustained 4 fatal gunshot wounds to the head.
Where has any of this been proven?
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Can't argue with that. Yes, there were wild shots but they all hit, it's like someone wanted to make us think, someone had gone crazy with a gun.
Indeed,I don't pretend to know the ins and out,forensics etc,but from the little I know allows me to form the opinion the perpetrator is alive and serving his sentence.
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Naturally they wanted to ensure they were not wasting police time, so once they were sure they notified the police at the earliest opportunity.
It's unfair to smear DS Jones like that, procedures in the 80's were not as stringent as they are today and he did nothing out of the ordinary. Police officers are human and I don't see that he compromised the murder investigation by having a whiskey with Pete Eaton. He took care to wrap the exhibit in something and made a clerical error back at the station. Nothing to see here.
If I wanted to free Bamber, I really think the correct path is persuading Julie Mugford to recant.
Sure about what?
DS Jones' drinking alcohol on duty wasn't limited to that one occasion.
Who wants to free Bamber?
If JM retracted her testimony it's unlikely CoA would quash JB's conviction since the conviction is underpinned by the blood/silencer evidence.
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Five dead.
No then as non-fatal shots superceded fatal shots.
SC did not sustain any defense wounds indicative she struggled with anyone. If she was that compliant JB would simply have popped the barrel in her mouth and shot through the roof to penetrate the brain. The bullets were hollow nosed which expand upon impact and are described as mini food mixers tearing through muscle.
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Where has any of this been proven?
Where has any of this been disproved?
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Is this all from IA discussions?
It was discussed on IA but not before it was discussed here.
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Sure about what?
DS Jones' drinking alcohol on duty wasn't limited to that one occasion.
Who wants to free Bamber?
If JM retracted her testimony it's unlikely CoA would quash JB's conviction since the conviction is underpinned by the blood/silencer evidence.
Sure about the significance of what they had in their hands. I would have celebrated such a coup with a whiskey or two.
I disagree, all hell would break loose if JM admitted perjury on the witness stand. It would be massive. Would Bambers team ignore that and keep harping on about blood/silencer evidence. I should think they would jump on it and vigorously renew their efforts
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Indeed,I don't pretend to know the ins and out,forensics etc,but from the little I know allows me to form the opinion the perpetrator is alive and serving his sentence.
This blog may be of interest,
JEREMY BAMBER and DERRICK BIRD courtesy of Gunfire Graffiti 29th Jan 2020
Excerpt:
‘How could this rampage in 2010 have anything in common with the Whitehouse Farm Murders in 1985? The beginning and end of each horror are joined with similarities. Both perpetrators had used .22 rifles and they shared an ability to prepare and operate them. Both killers had used the weapons for what they were legally procured and licensed for, shooting small game and vermin.
The sequence of events in Whitehouse Farm had seen the perpetrator murder 5 people but undoubtedly the most difficult and robust victim was 61 year old farmer, Neville Bamber who was initially shot in his own bed but had managed to get up and put up a fight. He was found slumped in his kitchen with 8 bullet wounds in his head, face and torso, further blunt force injuries to his head and face, defence wounds on his arm and his pyjamas tangled around his lower body. Derrick Bird’s first victim was his twin brother and farmer, David Bird. Derrick Bird had driven from his cottage in Rowrah to his brother’s property in Lamplugh, High Trees Farm, just 3 miles away. His brother lived alone. He had easily entered the property, local attitudes to security were apparently relaxed in these close communities. Regardless of this Derrick Bird knew the way into his brother’s house and knew where to find him. He shot his brother 11 times with the CZ .22 rifle. David Bird received wounds to his face, head and torso.When he was discovered there was signs of a struggle, David Bird was found semi dressed on the floor of his bedroom, his dog lying next to him. The fact that he had been shot 11 times would suggest that Derrick Bird had loaded the rifle with one round in the chamber as well as the 10 round magazine.
http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/jeremy-bamber-and-derrick-bird/
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THE WHITE HOUSE FARM MURDERS – BAMBER or CAFFELL courtesy of Gunfire Graffiti (Updated 30th Jan 2020)
Excerpts;
‘This blog is covering what is at present a very topical subject. My comments are based on real experience. The central feature is the murder weapon, how it was prepared and how it was used. That cannot be avoided or skirted. I respect opinion supported by knowledge, but opinions based on thoughts and ignoring plain facts are time wasting, boring and tiresome.
The White House Farm murders have attracted a great deal of attention since they were perpetrated in August 1985. Continued interest in these brutal killings that took place in the peaceful surroundings of rural Essex has been ironically kept in the forefront by Jeremy Bamber who was convicted for the offences in October 1986. He has always maintained he is innocent. With the aid of a campaign team he diligently pursues and overlays supposedly undisclosed evidence. He and they insist that his sister Sheila Caffell committed the murders.
His support team consists of some very well respected, intelligent and articulate individuals who are working hard to secure further appeals that will, they hope, ultimately bring about his release.
This includes a new Patron, Michelle Diskin Bates, the sister of Barry George. It was George who was initially found guilty but later acquitted for the murder of Jill Dando in 1999.
This team consider Bamber’s incarceration to be major miscarriage of justice. They are impressed by his continued insistence that he is innocent even after 33 years in prison. His stance and dogged determination convinces them that he is a unique, innocent and wrongly imprisoned victim.
To get a broad view I would recommend that you look at the Jeremy Bamber campaign website and read the narratives that his supporters have posted. One particular post by Robin Cox, gives an interesting “opinion” based account of the murder weapon and how it was utilised. It is a fascinating insight into his supporters and the lengths they are prepared to go to support him. My initial contact with them was positive but once they realised the direction of my investigation and my conclusions it was no surprise that contact ceased. Michelle Diskin Bates has never replied to my letter to her. (http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/who-didnt-kill-jill-dando/)
http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/
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Sure about the significance of what they had in their hands. I would have celebrated such a coup with a whiskey or two.
I disagree, all hell would break loose if JM admitted perjury on the witness stand. It would be massive. Would Bambers team ignore that and keep harping on about blood/silencer evidence. I should think they would jump on it and vigorously renew their efforts
What was the significance of what they had in their hands?
It's not a question of what Bamber's team harp on about. If JM admitted perjury how would this explain the blood/silener evidence? In any event why would Bamber's team sit around waiting for something they have no influence over when something exists that can be influenced?
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THE WHITE HOUSE FARM MURDERS – BAMBER or CAFFELL courtesy of Gunfire Graffiti (Updated 30th Jan 2020)
Excerpts;
‘This blog is covering what is at present a very topical subject. My comments are based on real experience. The central feature is the murder weapon, how it was prepared and how it was used. That cannot be avoided or skirted. I respect opinion supported by knowledge, but opinions based on thoughts and ignoring plain facts are time wasting, boring and tiresome.
The White House Farm murders have attracted a great deal of attention since they were perpetrated in August 1985. Continued interest in these brutal killings that took place in the peaceful surroundings of rural Essex has been ironically kept in the forefront by Jeremy Bamber who was convicted for the offences in October 1986. He has always maintained he is innocent. With the aid of a campaign team he diligently pursues and overlays supposedly undisclosed evidence. He and they insist that his sister Sheila Caffell committed the murders.
His support team consists of some very well respected, intelligent and articulate individuals who are working hard to secure further appeals that will, they hope, ultimately bring about his release.
This includes a new Patron, Michelle Diskin Bates, the sister of Barry George. It was George who was initially found guilty but later acquitted for the murder of Jill Dando in 1999.
This team consider Bamber’s incarceration to be major miscarriage of justice. They are impressed by his continued insistence that he is innocent even after 33 years in prison. His stance and dogged determination convinces them that he is a unique, innocent and wrongly imprisoned victim.
To get a broad view I would recommend that you look at the Jeremy Bamber campaign website and read the narratives that his supporters have posted. One particular post by Robin Cox, gives an interesting “opinion” based account of the murder weapon and how it was utilised. It is a fascinating insight into his supporters and the lengths they are prepared to go to support him. My initial contact with them was positive but once they realised the direction of my investigation and my conclusions it was no surprise that contact ceased. Michelle Diskin Bates has never replied to my letter to her. (http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/who-didnt-kill-jill-dando/)
http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/
Here’s an excerpt of Robin Coxs ‘opinion’
Sound Moderator & Silencer
The family were all shot at close range, within three feet. Sheila couldn’t have missed! Nevertheless, a silencer is what it says but they are illegal in this country because they silence gun fire to the human ear. A sound moderator (which is called mistakenly, a silencer) is usually used for shooting rabbits it doesn’t make much difference to the sound of the human ear and but rabbits hear the ‘sonic boom’ or something which frightens them and they run before the bullet gets to them. So suggesting that Jeremy used one to make a difference to the sound of the gun in the house is unrealistic. Jeremy left the gun without the moderator on it that night before he left the farm to go home after working. An Anshultz rifle is about as loud as a hand clap, anyhow so this is another reason why Sheila got round the house without too much disturbance.
Two shots to Sheila
The coroner of course thought there was no problem with there being two bullet wounds to Sheila. The first one went into her neck and broke apart in the tissue. She would have been able to stand up and walk about for a while, no question. The second shot went into her brain it killed her instantly. Why would Gresham’s educated Bamber think he was going pass it off as a suicide when she had two bullet wounds? If he had mucked it up as the prosecution stated, then why did he not sit and wait for her to die, or hope that she might? Why make up this convoluted story about the phone call?
Sheila was no match for Nevill
There was some kind of scuffle in the kitchen. Sheila was slight about 9 stone I think and 5ft 10, but there was no reason why she couldn’t have handled the gun to bash Nevill in the head with the butt. He had been shot at least 4 times, if not 7 or 8 by the time these wounds were inflicted. A woman could easily have done this especially one in a psychotic episode.
http://www.jeremybambertestimony.co.uk/robin-cox
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What was the significance of what they had in their hands?
It's not a question of what Bamber's team harp on about. If JM admitted perjury how would this explain the blood/silener evidence? In any event why would Bamber's team sit around waiting for something they have no influence over when something exists that can be influenced?
They had to be sure that what they had discovered was indeed suspicious. Remember that blood was not visible on the outside of the barrel. They would look a little silly going to the police with any old bit of kit.
With respect, you are wasting your time with the blood/silencer evidence, if someone could have disproved that it would have been done by now. You won't even tell us what you have - shades of Mike Tesco there i'm afraid.
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Sheila was no match for Nevill
There was some kind of scuffle in the kitchen. Sheila was slight about 9 stone I think and 5ft 10, but there was no reason why she couldn’t have handled the gun to bash Nevill in the head with the butt. He had been shot at least 4 times, if not 7 or 8 by the time these wounds were inflicted. A woman could easily have done this especially one in a psychotic episode.
http://www.jeremybambertestimony.co.uk/robin-cox
The darkly comic image of penthouse model Sheila duffing up farmer Nevill in the kitchen without so much as breaking a fingernail never fails to crack me up, sorry.
I don't mean to be sexist, just realist. that was never going to happen.
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Bamber’s written on the top left of his letter here https://twnews.co.uk/gb-news/killer-jeremy-bamber-calls-cousin-morbid-for-still-living-at-white-house-farm
‘Written within the guidelines of PSO4470’
PSO4470 has been withdrawn
Interesting how he’s referred to Ann as his ‘Mums neice” and not his cousin
“Ann, my mum’s niece, lives in this rented property. Her motive is that she is protecting the crime scene in case I’m retried and new techniques could find evidence to be used at a retrial.
“She gave ITV permission to film inside this rented property. I just find it odd and morbid to want to live in a crime scene.”
“The programme is a drama, so they don’t need to stick to the truth at all. I won’t watch the drama ever, it’s simply too upsetting to see ITV misrepresent my mum and dad and me.
“My guess is that I won’t be in here for long, I now have a cast iron alibi, which the CPS are aware of and that can’t be swept under the carpet.”
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Bamber’s written on the top left of his letter here https://twnews.co.uk/gb-news/killer-jeremy-bamber-calls-cousin-morbid-for-still-living-at-white-house-farm
‘Written within the guidelines of PSO4470’
PSO4470 has been withdrawn
Interesting how he’s referred to Ann as his ‘Mums neice” and not his cousin
“Ann, my mum’s niece, lives in this rented property. Her motive is that she is protecting the crime scene in case I’m retried and new techniques could find evidence to be used at a retrial.
“She gave ITV permission to film inside this rented property. I just find it odd and morbid to want to live in a crime scene.”
“The programme is a drama, so they don’t need to stick to the truth at all. I won’t watch the drama ever, it’s simply too upsetting to see ITV misrepresent my mum and dad and me.
“My guess is that I won’t be in here for long, I now have a cast iron alibi, which the CPS are aware of and that can’t be swept under the carpet.”
Bamber’s supporters should tell him he’s breaking prison guidelines by writing nonsense like this
I'm not aware of any restrictions on ingoing mail.
Neither is Bamber nor whoever is supposed to be screening his mail by the looks of it *&^^&
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Bamber’s written on the top left of his letter here https://twnews.co.uk/gb-news/killer-jeremy-bamber-calls-cousin-morbid-for-still-living-at-white-house-farm
‘Written within the guidelines of PSO4470’
PSO4470 has been withdrawn
Interesting how he’s referred to Ann as his ‘Mums neice” and not his cousin
“Ann, my mum’s niece, lives in this rented property. Her motive is that she is protecting the crime scene in case I’m retried and new techniques could find evidence to be used at a retrial.
“She gave ITV permission to film inside this rented property. I just find it odd and morbid to want to live in a crime scene.”
“The programme is a drama, so they don’t need to stick to the truth at all. I won’t watch the drama ever, it’s simply too upsetting to see ITV misrepresent my mum and dad and me.
“My guess is that I won’t be in here for long, I now have a cast iron alibi, which the CPS are aware of and that can’t be swept under the carpet.”
Home alone and a cast iron alibi eh? It's taken him nearly 35 years to dream that one up?
Interesting how he claimed not to have watched the drama series but still knows all about it. He's definitely lost the plot imo.
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They had to be sure that what they had discovered was indeed suspicious. Remember that blood was not visible on the outside of the barrel. They would look a little silly going to the police with any old bit of kit.
With respect, you are wasting your time with the blood/silencer evidence, if someone could have disproved that it would have been done by now. You won't even tell us what you have - shades of Mike Tesco there i'm afraid.
If blood wasn't visible on the outside what was it they discovered?
Who do you think has been in a position to disprove the blood/silencer? What makes you so sure tests are unavailable?
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The darkly comic image of penthouse model Sheila duffing up farmer Nevill in the kitchen without so much as breaking a fingernail never fails to crack me up, sorry.
I don't mean to be sexist, just realist. that was never going to happen.
And yet Dr Vanezis didn't mention any of the above? In fact he didn't find anything to contradict the murder/suicide theory?
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And yet Dr Vanezis didn't mention any of the above? In fact he didn't find anything to contradict the murder/suicide theory?
What did he say in court?
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And yet Dr Vanezis didn't mention any of the above? In fact he didn't find anything to contradict the murder/suicide theory?
Remember that the first time Vanezis saw Sheila she had blood all over her face after being transported in a body bag. When he saw Bird's crimescene photos of her he was shocked, only a trickle of blood dripping from her mouth. Between seeing the body in the morgue and viewing Bird's photos, was it possible he actually changed his mind but was influenced by certain senior police officers not to rock the boat?
If he continued to assert that Sheila shot herself after murdering everyone else including having one almighty barney with her adoptive father over the breakfast table then the jury found his opinion wanting and basically a load of crap. And that goes for the DCI and Superintendent too who tried to go with the murder/suicide theory despite the evidence.
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If blood wasn't visible on the outside what was it they discovered?
Who do you think has been in a position to disprove the blood/silencer? What makes you so sure tests are unavailable?
Ok, I'm not a ballistics expert so one must be careful. From a common sense perspective - look at the legal representation he has had down the years, not fools but top legal professionals like for example Simon Mckay. Nobody could resolve the blood/silencer question.
Everyone knows it's problematic, and here we are 34 years later. Deja vu. His appeals couldn't get past the CCRC last time. It seems the powers that be have had enough. Look at the situation with surviving evidence. The silencer has been tested to destruction more or less, and the rest of the evidence was inexplicably disposed of in 1996. Barring a scientific breakthrough akin in it's enormity to the discovery of DNA, I really think you are wasting your time going after the silencer, until such a day arrives. And then it would only serve to shore up the conviction anyway in the face of the mountain of other evidence against him.
It goes back to why I sincerely think a JM recant is your best option, it would stir public interest more than yet another tired headline about blood spatter, blood groups etc.
And for those that believe Bamber is innocent, then you would consider her evidence as untrue anyway. A recant would be a lot more conclusive than once again another up-for-conjecture blood/silencer theory.
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Ok, I'm not a ballistics expert so one must be careful. From a common sense perspective - look at the legal representation he has had down the years, not fools but top legal professionals like for example Simon Mckay. Nobody could resolve the blood/silencer question.
Everyone knows it's problematic, and here we are 34 years later. Deja vu. His appeals couldn't get past the CCRC last time. It seems the powers that be have had enough. Look at the situation with surviving evidence. The silencer has been tested to destruction more or less, and the rest of the evidence was inexplicably disposed of in 1996. Barring a scientific breakthrough akin in it's enormity to the discovery of DNA, I really think you are wasting your time going after the silencer, until such a day arrives. And then it would only serve to shore up the conviction anyway in the face of the mountain of other evidence against him.
It goes back to why I sincerely think a JM recant is your best option, it would stir public interest more than yet another tired headline about blood spatter, blood groups etc.
And for those that believe Bamber is innocent, then you would consider her evidence as untrue anyway. A recant would be a lot more conclusive than once again another up-for-conjecture blood/silencer theory.
I think one would be waiting a very long time if one were waiting on Julie to retract her evidence. IMO she had to tell the truth otherwise she too was headed for jail. I'll never understand though why Bamber did what he did to her and effectively turned her against him? It is patently obvious that had he not turned Julie against him the case would have been closed as a murder/suicide regardless of Stan Jones concerns.
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I think one would be waiting a very long time if one were waiting on Julie to retract her evidence. IMO she had to tell the truth otherwise she too was headed for jail. I'll never understand though why Bamber did what he did to her and effectively turned her against him? He effectively signed his own arrest warrant by treating Julie the way he did.
I believe Julie Mugford is a thoroughly brave, decent and conscionable woman. I was just looking at it from Holly's perspective, what would I do if I thought this monster was innocent. It would follow on that JM must have told a pack of lies.
Yes John, what a spectacular own goal to treat her like that, to think he could manipulate her indefinitely for the rest of her life. But then Jeremy is one of those gobshite people who needs someone to know how clever and praiseworthy he is, "I should have been an actor"
For the same reasons, I always wondered if his mate from New Zealand must have had a fair idea what was going on, discussed it, perhaps made a few suggestions. I know he was alibi for the murders so didn't come into the investigation. But they were undoubtedly close.
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I believe Julie Mugford is a thoroughly brave, decent and conscionable woman. I was just looking at it from Holly's perspective, what would I do if I thought this monster was innocent. It would follow on that JM must have told a pack of lies.
Yes John, what a spectacular own goal to treat her like that, to think he could manipulate her indefinitely for the rest of her life. But then Jeremy is one of those gobshite people who needs someone to know how clever and praiseworthy he is, "I should have been an actor"
For the same reasons, I always wondered if his mate from New Zealand must have had a fair idea what was going on, discussed it, perhaps made a few suggestions. I know he was alibi for the murders so didn't come into the investigation. But they were undoubtedly close.
I'm buying into how Julie is being played. It makes perfect sense to me. I've often wondered about her personality but I'd never seen her as a mouse, although it rather fits with the little I've been told about her background. 'Her' character, despite that it's been said otherwise, is entirely the sort, so desperate for her glamorous boyfriend's approval -and affection- that she'd have done anything to make him notice her. Hence the cheque fraud. When such a character eventually turns, best beware
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I'm buying into how Julie is being played. It makes perfect sense to me. I've often wondered about her personality but I'd never seen her as a mouse, although it rather fits with the little I've been told about her background. 'Her' character, despite that it's been said otherwise, is entirely the sort, so desperate for her glamorous boyfriend's approval -and affection- that she'd have done anything to make him notice her. Hence the cheque fraud. When such a character eventually turns, best beware
Her trip to the morgue to ID the twins would be enough to unravel most peoples conscience, if they have one. To stand there and see what the person sharing your bed is capable of.
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I believe Julie Mugford is a thoroughly brave, decent and conscionable woman. I was just looking at it from Holly's perspective, what would I do if I thought this monster was innocent. It would follow on that JM must have told a pack of lies.
Yes John, what a spectacular own goal to treat her like that, to think he could manipulate her indefinitely for the rest of her life. But then Jeremy is one of those gobshite people who needs someone to know how clever and praiseworthy he is, "I should have been an actor"
For the same reasons, I always wondered if his mate from New Zealand must have had a fair idea what was going on, discussed it, perhaps made a few suggestions. I know he was alibi for the murders so didn't come into the investigation. But they were undoubtedly close.
I have previously tried to put some meat on the bones of this particular story but much appears to be a closely guarded secret. That iron clad alibi certainly was useful though.
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I'm buying into how Julie is being played. It makes perfect sense to me. I've often wondered about her personality but I'd never seen her as a mouse, although it rather fits with the little I've been told about her background. 'Her' character, despite that it's been said otherwise, is entirely the sort, so desperate for her glamorous boyfriend's approval -and affection- that she'd have done anything to make him notice her. Hence the cheque fraud. When such a character eventually turns, best beware
I believe Julie was besotted with him but once she came to realise the monster she was protecting then the rest is history. I think her girlfriend (name escapes me) had a lot to do with her coming to her senses before it was too late and she ended up as an accessory after the fact.
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I have previously tried to put some meat on the bones of this particular story but much appears to be a closely guarded secret. That iron clad alibi certainly was useful though.
Out of the country, wasn't he. To my knowledge he's never tried to sell out/cash in on Bamber, small time crook like Brett Collins.
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I believe Julie was besotted with him but once she came to realise the monster she was protecting then the rest is history. I think her girlfriend (name escapes me) had a lot to do with her coming to her senses before it was too late and she ended up as an accessory after the fact.
I am new to this thread having been watching the TV series. I am well aware of the opening credits warning of 'based on truth' and not a verbatim account of what happened. So forgive me if I fall into that trap of saying something that is for the TV entertainment value.
I also wonder about the portrayal of Taff the guv. It would be good to know if he really did come round after JM's statement.
Re: JM. I tried very hard to get into her thinking (Brilliant acting) knowing what she knew, his treatment of her, still kissing him and seeking his 'affection' is way beyond my thought process.
I agree her friend did perhaps save her from herself and assisted her in some way to go forward. Her conscience must have been killing her surely.
However, I do believe her, but wonder did she come forward as a revenge from jealousy or conscience.
Can someone clarify for me.
1. why was the bodies of the children allowed to be cremated so soon, on adopted son's say so- He was NOT the next of Kin for Sheila's children. was he even hers? did Colin have no say at all?
I find this very strange.
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Hi, Colin Caffell was the next of kin and it was his decision
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Hi, Colin Caffell was the next of kin and it was his decision
Thank you for clearing that up for me- it did bother me some.
The series does show him up as being pathetic somewhat in regards to JB Making all the decisions- he just goes along without question. I suppose that is the annoyance of it being a TV series.
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I believe Julie Mugford is a thoroughly brave, decent and conscionable woman. I was just looking at it from Holly's perspective, what would I do if I thought this monster was innocent. It would follow on that JM must have told a pack of lies.
Yes John, what a spectacular own goal to treat her like that, to think he could manipulate her indefinitely for the rest of her life. But then Jeremy is one of those gobshite people who needs someone to know how clever and praiseworthy he is, "I should have been an actor"
For the same reasons, I always wondered if his mate from New Zealand must have had a fair idea what was going on, discussed it, perhaps made a few suggestions. I know he was alibi for the murders so didn't come into the investigation. But they were undoubtedly close.
It is insinuated in this episode that he had an intimate relationship with him?and JM was aware and got jealous. I thought he was Australian...
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It is insinuated in this episode that he had an intimate relationship with him?and JM was aware and got jealous. I thought he was Australian...
The rumours of an intimate relationship stem from a time they made sex noises from the same room to fool the person in the next room (a detective I think) into thinking there was something going on when there wasn't.
Julie had plenty of love rivals to worry about but as far has been actually verified they were all females.
As for Brett Collins, i'm not sure where he's from one of those 2 countries. Bamber met him on his tour down under, the one where his mother who he would shortly murder bailed him out financially so he could get home.
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THE WHITE HOUSE FARM MURDERS – BAMBER or CAFFELL courtesy of Gunfire Graffiti (Updated 30th Jan 2020)
Excerpts;
‘This blog is covering what is at present a very topical subject. My comments are based on real experience. The central feature is the murder weapon, how it was prepared and how it was used. That cannot be avoided or skirted. I respect opinion supported by knowledge, but opinions based on thoughts and ignoring plain facts are time wasting, boring and tiresome.
The White House Farm murders have attracted a great deal of attention since they were perpetrated in August 1985. Continued interest in these brutal killings that took place in the peaceful surroundings of rural Essex has been ironically kept in the forefront by Jeremy Bamber who was convicted for the offences in October 1986. He has always maintained he is innocent. With the aid of a campaign team he diligently pursues and overlays supposedly undisclosed evidence. He and they insist that his sister Sheila Caffell committed the murders.
His support team consists of some very well respected, intelligent and articulate individuals who are working hard to secure further appeals that will, they hope, ultimately bring about his release.
This includes a new Patron, Michelle Diskin Bates, the sister of Barry George. It was George who was initially found guilty but later acquitted for the murder of Jill Dando in 1999.
This team consider Bamber’s incarceration to be major miscarriage of justice. They are impressed by his continued insistence that he is innocent even after 33 years in prison. His stance and dogged determination convinces them that he is a unique, innocent and wrongly imprisoned victim.
To get a broad view I would recommend that you look at the Jeremy Bamber campaign website and read the narratives that his supporters have posted. One particular post by Robin Cox, gives an interesting “opinion” based account of the murder weapon and how it was utilised. It is a fascinating insight into his supporters and the lengths they are prepared to go to support him. My initial contact with them was positive but once they realised the direction of my investigation and my conclusions it was no surprise that contact ceased. Michelle Diskin Bates has never replied to my letter to her. (http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/who-didnt-kill-jill-dando/)
http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/
Very interesting reads,thankyou.
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The rumours of an intimate relationship stem from a time they made sex noises from the same room to fool the person in the next room (a detective I think) into thinking there was something going on when there wasn't.
Julie had plenty of love rivals to worry about but as far has been actually verified they were all females.
As for Brett Collins, i'm not sure where he's from one of those 2 countries. Bamber met him on his tour down under, the one where his mother who he would shortly murder bailed him out financially so he could get home.
Here... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7210.0 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7210.0)
and here... https://www.lawsociety.org.nz/news-and-communications/latest-news/news/banned-motor-vehicle-trader-receives-maximum-fine (https://www.lawsociety.org.nz/news-and-communications/latest-news/news/banned-motor-vehicle-trader-receives-maximum-fine)
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In part 4, I noticed that JB and JM met Brett Collins at Witham Station (which was actually filmed at North Weald Station, west Essex, with the sign changed to Witham). In fact, they met Brett Collins in London and spent the evening in Stringfellows.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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In part 4, I noticed that JB and JM met Brett Collins at Witham Station (which was actually filmed at North Weald Station, west Essex, with the sign changed to Witham). In fact, they met Brett Collins in London and spent the evening in Stringfellows.
I wonder how much JB ignored JM that night?
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(http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/who-didnt-kill-jill-dando/)
http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/
So very true of another case on the board.
The investigation could not help to be influenced by media speculation which favoured a so called hitman. Like JFK and Princess Diana, an insignificant gunman and an incompetent driver were too simplistic to contemplate, the initial media vacuums did the usual, they groomed conspiracy and wild speculation. Forceful opinions circulated and influenced thinking. Based on personal beliefs and values rather than simple evidence they were appealing to many at the time and still are.
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I am new to this thread having been watching the TV series. I am well aware of the opening credits warning of 'based on truth' and not a verbatim account of what happened. So forgive me if I fall into that trap of saying something that is for the TV entertainment value.
I also wonder about the portrayal of Taff the guv. It would be good to know if he really did come round after JM's statement.
Re: JM. I tried very hard to get into her thinking (Brilliant acting) knowing what she knew, his treatment of her, still kissing him and seeking his 'affection' is way beyond my thought process.
I agree her friend did perhaps save her from herself and assisted her in some way to go forward. Her conscience must have been killing her surely.
However, I do believe her, but wonder did she come forward as a revenge from jealousy or conscience.
Can someone clarify for me.
1. why was the bodies of the children allowed to be cremated so soon, on adopted son's say so- He was NOT the next of Kin for Sheila's children. was he even hers? did Colin have no say at all?
I find this very strange.
I don't believe the boys were cremated. Jeremy was only next of kin to Nevill, June, and Sheila. He'd have had no right to make that decision. From memory, they were buried together in one white coffin, along with Sheila's ashes.
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I don't believe the boys were cremated. Jeremy was only next of kin to Nevill, June, and Sheila. He'd have had no right to make that decision. From memory, they were buried together in one white coffin, along with Sheila's ashes.
Thats interesting Stan Jones according to the TV version was trying to stop the the adult bodies being released for cremation,was there any attempt at stopping the burial for further forensics? even exhumation if it turned into a murder investigation?
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No then as non-fatal shots superceded fatal shots.
SC did not sustain any defense wounds indicative she struggled with anyone. If she was that compliant JB would simply have popped the barrel in her mouth and shot through the roof to penetrate the brain. The bullets were hollow nosed which expand upon impact and are described as mini food mixers tearing through muscle.
Its as likely if she was the last she could well have been a cowering wreck,only the killer would know and he's not gonna tell his he?
She supposedly shot herself twice,the first must have hurt like hell,then done it again for good measure,yeah right.
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Is the latest attempt at appeal and all subsequent ones more of an attempt to say its a miscarriage because of lack of evidence pointing to him rather than he didn't do it,world of difference.
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Is the latest attempt at appeal and all subsequent ones more of an attempt to say its a miscarriage because of lack of evidence pointing to him rather than he didn't do it,world of difference.
Aye, that is the part that sickens me. It was a shock to realise that to many of his cronies it's just about getting Bamber off, regardless of whether they think he did it or not.
I bet Bamber turned white when he realised Sheila needed a 2nd shot...
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I am new to this thread having been watching the TV series. I am well aware of the opening credits warning of 'based on truth' and not a verbatim account of what happened. So forgive me if I fall into that trap of saying something that is for the TV entertainment value.
I also wonder about the portrayal of Taff the guv. It would be good to know if he really did come round after JM's statement.
Re: JM. I tried very hard to get into her thinking (Brilliant acting) knowing what she knew, his treatment of her, still kissing him and seeking his 'affection' is way beyond my thought process.
I agree her friend did perhaps save her from herself and assisted her in some way to go forward. Her conscience must have been killing her surely.
However, I do believe her, but wonder did she come forward as a revenge from jealousy or conscience.
Can someone clarify for me.
1. why was the bodies of the children allowed to be cremated so soon, on adopted son's say so- He was NOT the next of Kin for Sheila's children. was he even hers? did Colin have no say at all?
I find this very strange.
The twins weren'T cremated, they were buried. Sheila's ashes were buried with them.
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The twins weren'T cremated, they were buried. Sheila's ashes were buried with them.
Just been reading that the police needed the milk teeth Colin had from the twins to grind down for DNA,did they not have any from the original crime scene.
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In part 4, I noticed that JB and JM met Brett Collins at Witham Station (which was actually filmed at North Weald Station, west Essex, with the sign changed to Witham). In fact, they met Brett Collins in London and spent the evening in Stringfellows.
Went there in the late 80's/early90's, full of dirty old men!
I don't suppose where they met him or the night in Stringfellows would add to the story. I guess they also have a budget which restricts as far as location is concerned.
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Just been reading that the police needed the milk teeth Colin had from the twins to grind down for DNA,did they not have any from the original crime scene.
They didn't collect DNA in 1985 and much of the blood evidence was destroyed in 90's.
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Thats interesting Stan Jones according to the TV version was trying to stop the the adult bodies being released for cremation,was there any attempt at stopping the burial for further forensics? even exhumation if it turned into a murder investigation?
All the adits (Nevill, June and Sheila) were cremated on Bamber say so, the twins were buried in line with Colin's wishes. Sheila's asked were buried with them.
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Went there in the late 80's/early90's, full of dirty old men!
I don't suppose where they met him or the night in Stringfellows would add to the story. I guess they also have a budget which restricts as far as location is concerned.
Stringfellow... just imagine having to put up with your mullet being tugged for 35 years!
I guess they thought North Weald (Witham) was a lot prettier to shoot than Victoria Station.
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They didn't collect DNA in 1985 and much of the blood evidence was destroyed in 90's.
Thanks.
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Forceful opinions circulated and influenced thinking.
The “illusionary truth effect” https://www.wired.com/2017/02/dont-believe-lies-just-people-repeat/
“Want to Make a Lie Seem True? Say It Again. And Again. And Again”
Bamber’s lies are only believed by a small few - the public don’t appear to be buying into his ‘campaign’
Who in their right mind would quash 5 murder convictions on a technicality ?
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Stringfellow... just imagine having to put up with your mullet being tugged for 35 years!
I guess they thought North Weald (Witham) was a lot prettier to shoot than Victoria Station.
Well, if you will have these exotic haircuts ..... @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
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Well, if you will have these exotic haircuts ..... @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
... and tuggable todgers. @)(++(*
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'I cared for and loved Sheila' - Jeremy Bamber speaks about relationship with sister - East Anglian Daily Times
3 hours ago · Jeremy Bamber has opened up about his relationship with sister Sheila Caffell, who police and the media initially believed to be responsible for the murders at White House Farm. ... Bamber, who has always maintained his innocence, was convicted of killing sister Sheila, her twin six ...
If anyone has a link to the above please post
https://newstral.com/en/article/en/1144917320/-i-cared-for-and-loved-sheila-jeremy-bamber-speaks-about-relationship-with-sister
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'I cared for and loved Sheila' - Jeremy Bamber speaks about relationship with sister - East Anglian Daily Times
3 hours ago · Jeremy Bamber has opened up about his relationship with sister Sheila Caffell, who police and the media initially believed to be responsible for the murders at White House Farm. ... Bamber, who has always maintained his innocence, was convicted of killing sister Sheila, her twin six ...
If anyone has a link to the above please post
https://newstral.com/en/article/en/1144917320/-i-cared-for-and-loved-sheila-jeremy-bamber-speaks-about-relationship-with-sister
Maybe it’s been realised he’s been quoting a withdrawn prison guideline?
Bamber’s written on the top left of his letter here https://twnews.co.uk/gb-news/killer-jeremy-bamber-calls-cousin-morbid-for-still-living-at-white-house-farm
‘Written within the guidelines of PSO4470’
PSO4470 has been withdrawn
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'I cared for and loved Sheila' - Jeremy Bamber speaks about relationship with sister - East Anglian Daily Times
3 hours ago · Jeremy Bamber has opened up about his relationship with sister Sheila Caffell, who police and the media initially believed to be responsible for the murders at White House Farm. ... Bamber, who has always maintained his innocence, was convicted of killing sister Sheila, her twin six ...
If anyone has a link to the above please post
https://newstral.com/en/article/en/1144917320/-i-cared-for-and-loved-sheila-jeremy-bamber-speaks-about-relationship-with-sister
Arrogant killer Jeremy Bamber: A personality 'difficult
to pin down'
Excerpts:
‘Would you write to a prisoner who killed his parents, sister and her six-year-old twins? Writer Carol Ann Lee did.
And her verdict on the multiple-murderer? "In his letters, he is - or can affect that he is - charming, always personable, solicitous, witty, and has a magpie mind for the minutiae of his case. But at the same time he seems arrogant and curiously shallow, fixated on revenge, and is undoubtedly manipulative, as most high-profile prisoners are," she says in her book The Murders at White House Farm.
“.... a man who never accepts responsibility for any wrongdoing and is swift to dispense with friendships that no longer serve a purpose to his campaign.
https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/itv-series-murders-at-white-house-farm-1-6455350
He ‘appears’ to have
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Its as likely if she was the last she could well have been a cowering wreck,only the killer would know and he's not gonna tell his he?
She supposedly shot herself twice,the first must have hurt like hell,then done it again for good measure,yeah right
You can read the pathologists comments here about the two gunshot wounds.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=738
Do you honestly think the case would be this contentious if the pathologist was able to determine murder or suicide?
The pathologist (who was at one time a guest on Desert Island discs) has always made clear he did not find anything during the autopsies to contradict the murder/suicide theory which was also the conclusion made by the most senior officer at soc: Chief Sup George Harris. This was also supported by police surgeon Dr Craig, DCI Jones. Afaik none of the firearms officers at soc deviated from murder/suicide.
About 3/4 weeks after the murders a review was carried out by a DCI kennelly (spelling) who also concluded murder/suicide.
The only dissenter was DS Jones who worked intimately with the relatives and Julie Mugford. The relatives and Julie Mugford all gained by JB's conviction.
The relatives went on to inherit the Bamber estate circa 500k. JM was relieved of criminal charges over various petty crimes and received 25k from a tabloid newspaper for her 'story'. I don't know whether DS Jones was rewarded by the relatives for his assistance with the silencer and JM.
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I believe Julie Mugford is a thoroughly brave, decent and conscionable woman. I was just looking at it from Holly's perspective, what would I do if I thought this monster was innocent. It would follow on that JM must have told a pack of lies.
Yes John, what a spectacular own goal to treat her like that, to think he could manipulate her indefinitely for the rest of her life. But then Jeremy is one of those gobshite people who needs someone to know how clever and praiseworthy he is, "I should have been an actor"
For the same reasons, I always wondered if his mate from New Zealand must have had a fair idea what was going on, discussed it, perhaps made a few suggestions. I know he was alibi for the murders so didn't come into the investigation. But they were undoubtedly close.
According to JM's later wit stats she was told by JB on 7th Aug he arranged for Matthew Macdonald to carry out the murders. The following day she identified the victims at the morgue. And it was a month later, when JB dumped her, she told DS Jones what he wanted to hear.
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According to JM's later wit stats she was told by JB on 7th Aug he arranged for Matthew Macdonald to carry out the murders. The following day she identified the victims at the morgue. And it was a month later, when JB dumped her, she told DS Jones what he wanted to hear.
How many murderers would JM have met in her lifetime Holly?
‘What are signs of a serial killer?
Psychopathic behavior that is consistent with traits common to some serial killers include sensation seeking, a lack of remorse or guilt, impulsivity, the need for control, and predatory behavior.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer
Did Bamber dump JM or did she walk away because she began to recognise his ‘predatory behaviour’ his total ‘lack of remorse or guilt’ his ‘impulsivity’ his apparent ‘need for control’
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How many murderers would JM have met in her lifetime Holly?
None.
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I am new to this thread having been watching the TV series. I am well aware of the opening credits warning of 'based on truth' and not a verbatim account of what happened. So forgive me if I fall into that trap of saying something that is for the TV entertainment value.
I also wonder about the portrayal of Taff the guv. It would be good to know if he really did come round after JM's statement.
Re: JM. I tried very hard to get into her thinking (Brilliant acting) knowing what she knew, his treatment of her, still kissing him and seeking his 'affection' is way beyond my thought process.
I agree her friend did perhaps save her from herself and assisted her in some way to go forward. Her conscience must have been killing her surely.
However, I do believe her, but wonder did she come forward as a revenge from jealousy or conscience.
Can someone clarify for me.
1. why was the bodies of the children allowed to be cremated so soon, on adopted son's say so- He was NOT the next of Kin for Sheila's children. was he even hers? did Colin have no say at all?
I find this very strange.
Hi MTI
I haven't seen anything about DCI deviating from murder/suicide. I wonder if DCI Jones confided in Mrs Jones.
You can read JM's initial wit stat here in the library. In her wit stats a month later she states JB told her on morning of 7th Aug he hired a hitman.
JB arranged for the adults to be cremated. The twins were buried along with SC's ashes.
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'I cared for and loved Sheila' - Jeremy Bamber speaks about relationship with sister - East Anglian Daily Times
3 hours ago · Jeremy Bamber has opened up about his relationship with sister Sheila Caffell, who police and the media initially believed to be responsible for the murders at White House Farm. ... Bamber, who has always maintained his innocence, was convicted of killing sister Sheila, her twin six ...
If anyone has a link to the above please post
https://newstral.com/en/article/en/1144917320/-i-cared-for-and-loved-sheila-jeremy-bamber-speaks-about-relationship-with-sister
Wonder if we’ll hear anymore about what may have happened with this story?
Maybe it’s been realised he’s been quoting a withdrawn prison guideline?
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You can read the pathologists comments here about the two gunshot wounds.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=738 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=738)
Do you honestly think the case would be this contentious if the pathologist was able to determine murder or suicide?
The pathologist (who was at one time a guest on Desert Island discs) has always made clear he did not find anything during the autopsies to contradict the murder/suicide theory which was also the conclusion made by the most senior officer at soc: Chief Sup George Harris. This was also supported by police surgeon Dr Craig, DCI Jones. Afaik none of the firearms officers at soc deviated from murder/suicide.
About 3/4 weeks after the murders a review was carried out by a DCI kennelly (spelling) who also concluded murder/suicide.
The only dissenter was DS Jones who worked intimately with the relatives and Julie Mugford. The relatives and Julie Mugford all gained by JB's conviction.
The relatives went on to inherit the Bamber estate circa 500k. JM was relieved of criminal charges over various petty crimes and received 25k from a tabloid newspaper for her 'story'. I don't know whether DS Jones was rewarded by the relatives for his assistance with the silencer and JM.
What about Bob Miller and Micky Barlow who let Stan do the talking and take the flak?
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Hi MTI
I haven't seen anything about DCI deviating from murder/suicide. I wonder if DCI Jones confided in Mrs Jones.
You can read JM's initial wit stat here in the library. In her wit stats a month later she states JB told her on morning of 7th Aug he hired a hitman.
JB arranged for the adults to be cremated. The twins were buried along with SC's ashes.
I did actually read that he was relieved when Bamber was caught but can't remember where. Still trying to remember. Will post if I find it.
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According to JM's later wit stats she was told by JB on 7th Aug he arranged for Matthew Macdonald to carry out the murders. The following day she identified the victims at the morgue. And it was a month later, when JB dumped her, she told DS Jones what he wanted to hear.
I remain convinced that, had he put a wedding ring on her finger, she'd have stayed silent................at least until she found out about his second affair -she'd have forgiven the first. I guess having all that dosh and the freedom to enjoy it meant the boring little mouse could be dispensed with? It may well have been a case of a woman scorned being the trigger, but it doesn't mean it's not true. I'd be really interested to learn those things she hasn't revealed but probably only a priest or therapist is privy to those.
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You can read the pathologists comments here about the two gunshot wounds.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=738
Do you honestly think the case would be this contentious if the pathologist was able to determine murder or suicide?
The pathologist (who was at one time a guest on Desert Island discs) has always made clear he did not find anything during the autopsies to contradict the murder/suicide theory which was also the conclusion made by the most senior officer at soc: Chief Sup George Harris. This was also supported by police surgeon Dr Craig, DCI Jones. Afaik none of the firearms officers at soc deviated from murder/suicide.
About 3/4 weeks after the murders a review was carried out by a DCI kennelly (spelling) who also concluded murder/suicide.
The only dissenter was DS Jones who worked intimately with the relatives and Julie Mugford. The relatives and Julie Mugford all gained by JB's conviction.
The relatives went on to inherit the Bamber estate circa 500k. JM was relieved of criminal charges over various petty crimes and received 25k from a tabloid newspaper for her 'story'. I don't know whether DS Jones was rewarded by the relatives for his assistance with the silencer and JM.
Ten people on the jury were convinced to convict beyond reasonable doubt it was murder alright and no suicide involved.Are you suggesting some kind of collusion going on to stitch Bamber up,are you convinced of his innocence.I'd agree it's mostly circumstantial but it all adds up to the guilt of Bamber.It was a cold calculated crime not one that was carried out by someone who was suffering mental illness.The final shots which Julie was supposed to have fired would have had her in the same room as her boys.
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What about Bob Miller and Micky Barlow who let Stan do the talking and take the flak?
Dr Vanezis confirms in his wit stats that all officers who attended pm's were proceeding with 4 murders/suicide. Those present included Di Miller, Di Cooke, DC Bird and DC Hammersly.
On 8th Aug Dr Vanezis visited WHF where he discussed the case with the aforementioned along with DS Jones and DCI Jones. Dr Vanezis states the only dissenter was DS Jones who offered nothing of evidential value.
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Dr Vanezis confirms in his wit stats that all officers who attended pm's were proceeding with 4 murders/suicide. Those present included Di Miller, Di Cooke, DC Bird and DC Hammersly.
On 8th Aug Dr Vanezis visited WHF where he discussed the case with the aforementioned along with DS Jones and DCI Jones. Dr Vanezis states the only dissenter was DS Jones who offered nothing of evidential value.
As I said, Miller and Barlow were of the same opinion as Stan Jones, no matter how many times you try to squirm out of it!
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I remain convinced that, had he put a wedding ring on her finger, she'd have stayed silent................at least until she found out about his second affair -she'd have forgiven the first. I guess having all that dosh and the freedom to enjoy it meant the boring little mouse could be dispensed with? It may well have been a case of a woman scorned being the trigger, but it doesn't mean it's not true. I'd be really interested to learn those things she hasn't revealed but probably only a priest or therapist is privy to those.
Well unlike SF who we are told conceived during her relationship with JB Afaik JM didn't. If JM wanted to snare JB then she could have held off any contraception. I think JM was more interested in completing her studies and pursuing a career which is exactly what she has done.
JM states in her wit stat they parted on friendly terms. This can be evidenced by the fact she accepted a lift of JB and asked him for June's bike even after DS Jones obtained her story.
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As I said, Miller and Barlow were of the same opinion as Stan Jones, no matter how many times you try to squirm out of it!
They probably did get round to DS Jones' thinking once he secured the silencer and JM's story but certainly not in the early days.
DC Barlow states the first time he went to WHF was on 22nd Aug.
What experience did these junior officers have in mass shootings?
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They probably did get round to DS Jones' thinking once he secured the silencer and JM's story but certainly not in the early days.
DC Barlow states the first time he went to WHF was on 22nd Aug.
What experience did these junior officers have in mass shootings?
What experience did Dr. Vanezis have in mass shootings?
Off now to install a burglar alarm! Can't be too careful these days.
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Ten people on the jury were convinced to convict beyond reasonable doubt it was murder alright and no suicide involved.Are you suggesting some kind of collusion going on to stitch Bamber up,are you convinced of his innocence.I'd agree it's mostly circumstantial but it all adds up to the guilt of Bamber.It was a cold calculated crime not one that was carried out by someone who was suffering mental illness.The final shots which Julie was supposed to have fired would have had her in the same room as her boys.
Of course 10 jurors convicted after DS Jones pretty much single handedly shored up the evidence that convicted JB: silencer and JM's testimony.
What motivated DS Jones? Did he genuinely believe JB was guilty or was he incentivised by JB's extended adoptive family who went on to inherit the Bamber's 500k estate which they wouldn't have done had JB not been convicted.
No idea what you mean by Julie and the boys?
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What experience did Dr. Vanezis have in mass shootings?
Off now to install a burglar alarm! Can't be too careful these days.
No one had any experience of unwitnessed mass shootings since none have taken place in UK during peace-time. He did however have experience of suicides involving two gunshot wounds.
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I did actually read that he was relieved when Bamber was caught but can't remember where. Still trying to remember. Will post if I find it.
I read on Blue that he was going to beat the drum for JB at his trial.
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I read on Blue that he was going to beat the drum for JB at his trial.
Was there ANY evidence to back it up?
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Of course 10 jurors convicted after DS Jones pretty much single handedly shored up the evidence that convicted JB: silencer and JM's testimony.
What motivated DS Jones? Did he genuinely believe JB was guilty or was he incentivised by JB's extended adoptive family who went on to inherit the Bamber's 500k estate which they wouldn't have done had JB not been convicted.
No idea what you mean by Julie and the boys?
I have wondered what motivated Stan Jones too. Pure speculation, but he might have taken offence at Jeremy's actions/reactions after the murders, then been influenced by what certain people had to say about the sort of person Jeremy was. He might have felt a little cheated at the thought that, if Sheila was the killer, nobody would "pay" for the crime, as Sheila was dead. He might have thought his superior was messing things up, and that he could do better.
We aren't ever going to know for sure.
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Was there ANY evidence to back it up?
By "beat the drum", do you mean appear as a defence witness? That is what I read, and I possibly read it on Blue (don't remember). Will take it with a pinch of salt unless I hear that it's true.
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Was there ANY evidence to back it up?
No, that's why I said I read it on Blue.
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I have wondered what motivated Stan Jones too. Pure speculation, but he might have taken offence at Jeremy's actions/reactions after the murders, then been influenced by what certain people had to say about the sort of person Jeremy was. He might have felt a little cheated at the thought that, if Sheila was the killer, nobody would "pay" for the crime, as Sheila was dead. He might have thought his superior was messing things up, and that he could do better.
We aren't ever going to know for sure.
I think in the future we might know for sure. If forensic tests show the blood/silencer was fabricated this will then bring JM's testimony under the spotlight. I have always thought DS Jones made all sorts of threats against JM and she went along with it on the basis DS Jones sold her the blood/silencer evidence. It wouldn't surprise me if she did spill the beans assuming she has beans to spill - I think she does.
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By "beat the drum", do you mean appear as a defence witness? That is what I read, and I possibly read it on Blue (don't remember). Will take it with a pinch of salt unless I hear that it's true.
I used the expression beat the drum and yes I meant he would support the defence at JB's trial.
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Of course 10 jurors convicted after DS Jones pretty much single handedly shored up the evidence that convicted JB: silencer and JM's testimony.
What motivated DS Jones? Did he genuinely believe JB was guilty or was he incentivised by JB's extended adoptive family who went on to inherit the Bamber's 500k estate which they wouldn't have done had JB not been convicted.
No idea what you mean by Julie and the boys?
If Bamber was as innocent as you'd have us believe how come his defence couldn't rubbish the prosecution.
Was there any concern that Julie didn't love her boys,to my mind she'd have finished her supposed killing spree to be with them.
After beating the be jesus out of dad she then went upstairs and lay down and shot herself,really? twice at that.
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Well unlike SF who we are told conceived during her relationship with JB Afaik JM didn't. If JM wanted to snare JB then she could have held off any contraception. I think JM was more interested in completing her studies and pursuing a career which is exactly what she has done.
JM states in her wit stat they parted on friendly terms. This can be evidenced by the fact she accepted a lift of JB and asked him for June's bike even after DS Jones obtained her story.
Maybe she tried? Perhaps there were reasons not known about for her not conceiving? Maybe Jeremy used condoms? Surely, had she not ultimately intended to be his wife, she wouldn't have stayed?
Parting "on friendly terms" may only mean they weren't fighting verbally or physically. There's also that he was more likely to let her have said bike if she smiled, rather than snarled.
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If Bamber was as innocent as you'd have us believe how come his defence couldn't rubbish the prosecution.
You could ask that question about any miscarriage of justice? Many of which involve fabricated evidence/testimony/non-disclosure.
Was there any concern that Julie didn't love her boys,to my mind she'd have finished her supposed killing spree to be with them.
I think you mean Sheila? She told her psychiatrist she thought they would harm her and have sex with her. She thought Nicholas was capable of becoming a murderer.
After beating the be jesus out of dad she then went upstairs and lay down and shot herself,really? twice at that.
The pathologist was not surprised about a woman of SC's build inflicting NB's wounds.
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I think in the future we might know for sure. If forensic tests show the blood/silencer was fabricated this will then bring JM's testimony under the spotlight. I have always thought DS Jones made all sorts of threats against JM and she went along with it on the basis DS Jones sold her the blood/silencer evidence. It wouldn't surprise me if she did spill the beans assuming she has beans to spill - I think she does.
She (And ‘a friend’) ‘spilt the beans’ in 2012
“I thought this was long in the past. The last few weeks have been a nightmare. As far as I am concerned nothing has changed - I sincerely believe he is guilty. Do I stand by my original story? Yes, absolutely. I always assumed he would be in jail for life.”
“And while I fully accept that new forensic techniques could throw new light on the case I still believe he is guilty.”
A friend added:
"It is something Julie has never really recovered from. Ultimately it was her evidence that put him behind bars and it is something she still has nightmares about. She still grieves for his family and wonders if she could have averted the murders by telling the police about his scheming beforehand."
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She (And ‘a friend’) ‘spilt the beans’ in 2012
“I thought this was long in the past. The last few weeks have been a nightmare. As far as I am concerned nothing has changed - I sincerely believe he is guilty. Do I stand by my original story? Yes, absolutely. I always assumed he would be in jail for life.”
“And while I fully accept that new forensic techniques could throw new light on the case I still believe he is guilty.”
A friend added:
"It is something Julie has never really recovered from. Ultimately it was her evidence that put him behind bars and it is something she still has nightmares about. She still grieves for his family and wonders if she could have averted the murders by telling the police about his scheming beforehand."
Which begs the question why she didn't tell the police about his scheming beforehand or at the very least come clean on day 1.
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She (And ‘a friend’) ‘spilt the beans’ in 2012
“I thought this was long in the past. The last few weeks have been a nightmare. As far as I am concerned nothing has changed - I sincerely believe he is guilty. Do I stand by my original story? Yes, absolutely. I always assumed he would be in jail for life.”
“And while I fully accept that new forensic techniques could throw new light on the case I still believe he is guilty.”
A friend added:
"It is something Julie has never really recovered from. Ultimately it was her evidence that put him behind bars and it is something she still has nightmares about. She still grieves for his family and wonders if she could have averted the murders by telling the police about his scheming beforehand."
And which "original story" is she referring to?
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Which begs the question why she didn't tell the police about his scheming beforehand or at the very least come clean on day 1.
I'm certain most of us know what those "If only I had...................." moments feel like. We have to live with them.
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I'm certain most of us know what those "If only I had...................." moments feel like. We have to live with them.
Those moments are usually dependent on the benefit of hindsight. In JM's case, if her trial testimony is correct, she had the benefit of foresight.
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Ten people on the jury were convinced to convict beyond reasonable doubt it was murder alright and no suicide involved.Are you suggesting some kind of collusion going on to stitch Bamber up,are you convinced of his innocence.I'd agree it's mostly circumstantial but it all adds up to the guilt of Bamber.It was a cold calculated crime not one that was carried out by someone who was suffering mental illness.The final shots which Julie was supposed to have fired would have had her in the same room as her boys.
"The final shots which Julie was supposed to have fired would have had her in the same room as her boys."
You are spot on with this sentence. If Sheilas' madness' was to save her children from an imagined danger- she would have shot her children and herself in very close proximity to 'protect' them, and be with them.
"No one had any experience of unwitnessed mass shootings since none have taken place in UK during peace-time. He did however have experience of suicides involving two gunshot wounds."
Some medical people do not like to be challenged. He could have been an arrogant B.. Did he have experience of two gun shots- and no blood from the violent murdering rampage? Look at where her arms are 'placed'! and where are her fingerprints placed on the gun as she 'killed herself.
A silencer was most definitely used and she didn't have the arm reach to self inflict two wounds.
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You could ask that question about any miscarriage of justice? Many of which involve fabricated evidence/testimony/non-disclosure.
I think you mean Sheila? She told her psychiatrist she thought they would harm her and have sex with her. She thought Nicholas was capable of becoming a murderer.
The pathologist was not surprised about a woman of SC's build inflicting NB's wounds.
Was he equally not surprised she had no scratch marks or blood splatters from this violent attack?
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Which begs the question why she didn't tell the police about his scheming beforehand or at the very least come clean on day 1.
I don't know the answer, but I could take a guess...
Perhaps she didn't believe he wouldn't do it- secondly he may have threatened her and her family. she could have been in shock at it all. Some rape and tortured victims have that happen to them.
One type of punishment in some parts of war torn Africa is to brutally gang rape (straight) men and torture them as a humiliation. Only a hand full will come forward and speak up to doctors due to the shame they have and will bring their families. JB may have told JM she is as much guilty as he is, and partly responsible. as the rape victims I mention are told. Guilt by association?.
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Was he equally not surprised she had no scratch marks or blood splatters from this violent attack?
There's no evidence of any hand to hand fighting. The pathologist said NB's non-gunshot wounds were caused by a blunt instrument probably the rifle. The barrel of the rifle contained so little blood it was not even possible to group/type it. And yet it was possible to group/type a flake of blood found inside the silencer!
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I don't know the answer, but I could take a guess...
Perhaps she didn't believe he wouldn't do it- secondly he may have threatened her and her family. she could have been in shock at it all. Some rape and tortured victims have that happen to them.
One type of punishment in some parts of war torn Africa is to brutally gang rape (straight) men and torture them as a humiliation. Only a hand full will come forward and speak up to doctors due to the shame they have and will bring their families. JB may have told JM she is as much guilty as he is, and partly responsible. as the rape victims I mention are told. Guilt by association?.
I believe DS Jones used guilt by association on JM.
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I don't know the answer, but I could take a guess...
Perhaps she didn't believe he wouldn't do it- secondly he may have threatened her and her family. she could have been in shock at it all. Some rape and tortured victims have that happen to them.
One type of punishment in some parts of war torn Africa is to brutally gang rape (straight) men and torture them as a humiliation. Only a hand full will come forward and speak up to doctors due to the shame they have and will bring their families. JB may have told JM she is as much guilty as he is, and partly responsible. as the rape victims I mention are told. Guilt by association?.
He is said to have told her exactly that. I think we've overlooked that her own family lived very close. I can't think damage limitation didn't cross her mind. There must have been a point where it looked as if, which e3ver way she turned, was a deep pit waiting to consume her.
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You could ask that question about any miscarriage of justice? Many of which involve fabricated evidence/testimony/non-disclosure.
I think you mean Sheila? She told her psychiatrist she thought they would harm her and have sex with her. She thought Nicholas was capable of becoming a murderer.
The pathologist was not surprised about a woman of SC's build inflicting NB's wounds.
Sorry Sheila,so no surprise that Bamber would be just as capable then.
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Maybe she tried? Perhaps there were reasons not known about for her not conceiving? Maybe Jeremy used condoms? Surely, had she not ultimately intended to be his wife, she wouldn't have stayed?
Parting "on friendly terms" may only mean they weren't fighting verbally or physically. There's also that he was more likely to let her have said bike if she smiled, rather than snarled.
Wouldn't have stayed where?
She was only 20 yoa at the time of the murders and still completing her masters?
Did she want anything long-term with JB in rural Essex?
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Sorry Sheila,so no surprise that Bamber would be just as capable then.
The physical evidence at soc doesn't support JB.
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The physical evidence at soc doesn't support JB.
Being innocent? the phone how did Neville supposedly phone him,with a damaged tongue,no blood splatter on the phone was there? was it plugged in?
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I believe DS Jones used guilt by association on JM.
@)(++(*
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I believe DS Jones used guilt by association on JM.
The Brain Can Work Against Abuse Victims
”For some men and women, love will be dangerous because of their mate choice. They fell for a partner who seemed like a safe match in the beginning. However, over time a darkness infested the relationship. Before they knew it, the rings of control were in place; growing tighter and tighter by the day. Toxic partners can destroy lives.
What causes someone to violate a person they claimed to love? There are many reasons, for example, substance or alcohol abuse, a neurological condition impacting behavior, or a disorder of character such as [ censored word]ocial personality/ psychopathy, borderline personality disorder, or narcissistic personality disorder.
Although the reasons may vary, the painful reality and outcome for many victims are the same. He or she will suffer. And to make matters worse many of those individuals will find it nearly impossible to walk away. (Aunt Agatha is an example imo) The neurochemistry of love and attachment, particularly in the presence of abuse, can seal a victim to a grim future with a malignant partner.
You might think, they should simply walk away — leave immediately. They do not have to stay with someone who frightens, controls, or intimidates them. That solution is the logical and best approach to an abusive situation. However, the natural functioning of our brain can prevent that from happening. Let's look at why.
Common Reactions of the Brain to an Abuser
Several important ingredients that contribute to someone's "addiction" to their abuser are oxytocin (bonding), endogenous opioids (pleasure, pain, withdrawal, dependence), corticotropin-releasing factor (withdrawal, stress), and dopamine (craving, seeking, wanting). With such strong neurochemistry in dysregulated states, it will be extremely difficult to manage emotions or make logical decisions.
Courtesy of Rhonda Freeman PhD
https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/neurosagacity/201701/the-brain-can-work-against-abuse-victims
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Being innocent? the phone how did Neville supposedly phone him,with a damaged tongue,no blood splatter on the phone was there? was it plugged in?
The UK judicial system isn't based on being innocent. It's based on being either not guilty or guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
The physical evidence at soc by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks all support NB downstairs on the phone to JB with SC upstairs opening fire on June. NB drops the phone, runs upstairs and sustains the two gunshot wounds to his face, he turns to return downstairs and is the shot twice in the rear. NB returns to the kitchen followed by SC.
I've sent G-Unit a pm encouraging her over here as it will be interesting to see what she makes of it all.
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The physical evidence at soc by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks all support NB downstairs on the phone to JB
There was no phone-call from NB - nor does evidence exist of one
The phone-call was/is a myth created by Bamber
‘Repeating lies makes people believe they are true https://bigthink.com/mind-brain/repeating-lies-people-believe-true-studies
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Wouldn't have stayed where?
She was only 20 yoa at the time of the murders and still completing her masters?
Did she want anything long-term with JB in rural Essex?
Wouldn't have stayed in the relationship.
I know, but she wouldn't have been the first woman to change her life for a man. Masters could have been put on hold.
This was the point I was trying to make. She must have been serious about her relationship with him -kidded herself he felt the same?- to have stayed in it given the circumstances.
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'I cared for and loved Sheila' - Jeremy Bamber speaks about relationship with sister - East Anglian Daily Times
3 hours ago · Jeremy Bamber has opened up about his relationship with sister Sheila Caffell, who police and the media initially believed to be responsible for the murders at White House Farm. ... Bamber, who has always maintained his innocence, was convicted of killing sister Sheila, her twin six ...
If anyone has a link to the above please post
https://newstral.com/en/article/en/1144917320/-i-cared-for-and-loved-sheila-jeremy-bamber-speaks-about-relationship-with-sister
Could this story have been pulled because of a legal breach?
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The UK judicial system isn't based on being innocent. It's based on being either not guilty or guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
The physical evidence at soc by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks all support NB downstairs on the phone to JB with SC upstairs opening fire on June. NB drops the phone, runs upstairs and sustains the two gunshot wounds to his face, he turns to return downstairs and is the shot twice in the rear. NB returns to the kitchen followed by SC.
I've sent G-Unit a pm encouraging her over here as it will be interesting to see what she makes of it all.
"The physical evidence at soc by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks all support NB downstairs on the phone to JB with SC upstairs opening fire on June.
So no silencer was used? did this not wake the twins?
NB drops the phone, runs upstairs and sustains the two gunshot wounds to his face, he turns to return downstairs and is the shot twice in the rear.
Why go downstairs why not run into protect the twins (were they dead already- if so why not run upstairs on the first gun shot being fired.)
NB returns to the kitchen followed by SC. "
To tell bamber his sister was killing everyone.
I do not believe there was a phone call at all, there doesn't seem to be a record of it from the land lines.
There also seems to be a strange reaction to this, what must have been distressing call, not to call 999 but to look up local police office?
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You could ask that question about any miscarriage of justice? Many of which involve fabricated evidence/testimony/non-disclosure.
I think you mean Sheila? She told her psychiatrist she thought they would harm her and have sex with her. She thought Nicholas was capable of becoming a murderer.
The pathologist was not surprised about a woman of SC's build inflicting NB's wounds.
This turns her into a murderess?
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The UK judicial system isn't based on being innocent. It's based on being either not guilty or guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
The physical evidence at soc by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks all support NB downstairs on the phone to JB with SC upstairs opening fire on June. NB drops the phone, runs upstairs and sustains the two gunshot wounds to his face, he turns to return downstairs and is the shot twice in the rear. NB returns to the kitchen followed by SC.
I've sent G-Unit a pm encouraging her over here as it will be interesting to see what she makes of it all.
10-2,the jury was satisfied beyond reasonable doubt,how can Bamber not have carried out these crimes?
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There was no phone-call from NB - nor does evidence exist of one
The phone-call was/is a myth created by Bamber
‘Repeating lies makes people believe they are true https://bigthink.com/mind-brain/repeating-lies-people-believe-true-studies (https://bigthink.com/mind-brain/repeating-lies-people-believe-true-studies)
"The physical evidence at soc by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks all support NB downstairs on the phone to JB with SC upstairs opening fire on June.
So no silencer was used? did this not wake the twins?
NB drops the phone, runs upstairs and sustains the two gunshot wounds to his face, he turns to return downstairs and is the shot twice in the rear.
Why go downstairs why not run into protect the twins (were they dead already- if so why not run upstairs on the first gun shot being fired.)
NB returns to the kitchen followed by SC. "
To tell bamber his sister was killing everyone.
I do not believe there was a phone call at all, there doesn't seem to be a record of it from the land lines.
There also seems to be a strange reaction to this, what must have been distressing call, not to call 999 but to look up local police office?
Only one person can be telling the truth. I wonder who?...
https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call (https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call)
or...
https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/colin-caffell-audio-on-jeremy-bamber (https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/colin-caffell-audio-on-jeremy-bamber)
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Only one person can be telling the truth. I wonder who?...
https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call (https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call)
or...
https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/colin-caffell-audio-on-jeremy-bamber (https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/colin-caffell-audio-on-jeremy-bamber)
8((()*/
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Only one person can be telling the truth. I wonder who?...
https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call (https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call)
or...
https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/colin-caffell-audio-on-jeremy-bamber (https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/colin-caffell-audio-on-jeremy-bamber)
Why the emphasis on "the" gun.
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10-2,the jury was satisfied beyond reasonable doubt,how can Bamber not have carried out these crimes?
Juries do sometimes get it wrong!
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Juries do sometimes get it wrong!
One of two people did this crime,I'll ask again why couldn't Bamber have done it,what is the reasoning behind his supposed innocence? Is there something not presented to the court which would allow the Jury to reach a different conclusion.
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Why the emphasis on "the" gun.
Bamber has rehearsed the phony call scenario so many times that he has it of pat to correlate with his statement.
No mention either of his second call to a sleeping Julie in London at around 3 o'clock to ask her advice and seek reassurance... as if he needed any!
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Only one person can be telling the truth. I wonder who?...
https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call (https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call)
or...
https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/colin-caffell-audio-on-jeremy-bamber (https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/colin-caffell-audio-on-jeremy-bamber)
Thank you Myster for this. Yes, I am now convinced that there was no phone call.
His dad calls to say your sister has gone mad she has THE gun (the gun) strange terminology regarding recognising it was dads voice ? why not say' my dad called me' Anyway, upon hearing this terrible news he hung up... then phoned back????? WTF why? to ask if he wanted him to do something or call the police?
Rewind- deranged woman shooting people in house, there are children in there. call back to ask if they need anything. got the engaged tone? looked up local police number instead of 999.
JB=Guilty as hell!
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One of two people did this crime,I'll ask again why couldn't Bamber have done it,what is the reasoning behind his supposed innocence? Is there something not presented to the court which would allow the Jury to reach a different conclusion.
Of course he could have done it, and may well have done, but I'm not sure.
From what I have read (and mostly not on this forum), some people don't believe Julie was telling the truth, some are suspicious regarding the silencer having been found by relatives several days after the murders and after the police had searched the house, some people wonder whether Jeremy was "set up" by relatives who would benefit financially if he didn't inherit, and some do believe that Nevill rang the police and also rang Jeremy, saying that Sheila had "gone crazy" and had got hold of a gun. In addition, some believe that Sheila could physically have committed the murders, some also believe that she was still alive after the police and Jeremy had arrived at the farm.
I'm sure Holly will add more---she has gone into the forensics in great detail, which, I have to admit, I haven't done.
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There was no phone-call from NB - nor does evidence exist of one
The phone-call was/is a myth created by Bamber
‘Repeating lies makes people believe they are true https://bigthink.com/mind-brain/repeating-lies-people-believe-true-studies
The physical evidence at soc supports a phone call from JB.
What evidence exists showing a pho e call wasn't made?
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In addition, it is believed by some that there are outstanding documents that have been withheld.
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Which begs the question why she didn't tell the police about his scheming beforehand or at the very least come clean on day 1.
JM was also concerned she wouldn’t be believed by the police - and given you’ve never been in her situation it’s unlikely you’ll know how tjat would have felt
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Wouldn't have stayed in the relationship.
I know, but she wouldn't have been the first woman to change her life for a man. Masters could have been put on hold.
This was the point I was trying to make. She must have been serious about her relationship with him -kidded herself he felt the same?- to have stayed in it given the circumstances.
But there's no evidence she changed her life for JB. They met Dec 83 when she was part way thru her degree. She continued living in London with JB in Essex. JB visited a couple of times during the week and JM visited JB at the w/e. Come summer 1985 JM was starting her masters in London.
I think she was more than babies, marriage and men. With or without JB she was going to make a success of her life and on the surface it seems she has: enduring marriage, children, director of education at some organisation in Canada, property with swimming pool.
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But there's no evidence she changed her life for JB
In reality Holly you didn’t know JM prior to, during or after her involvement with Bamber
You’ve never met her nor are you ever likely to meet her
Your sweeping statements seem pointless
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"The physical evidence at soc by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks all support NB downstairs on the phone to JB with SC upstairs opening fire on June.
So no silencer was used? did this not wake the twins?
NB drops the phone, runs upstairs and sustains the two gunshot wounds to his face, he turns to return downstairs and is the shot twice in the rear.
Why go downstairs why not run into protect the twins (were they dead already- if so why not run upstairs on the first gun shot being fired.)
NB returns to the kitchen followed by SC. "
To tell bamber his sister was killing everyone.
I do not believe there was a phone call at all, there doesn't seem to be a record of it from the land lines.
There also seems to be a strange reaction to this, what must have been distressing call, not to call 999 but to look up local police office?
The sound difference with and without a silencer is minimal. Myster has in the past posted a video demonstrating both. You will recall we also covered this on the Mccann case where I uploaded a YouTube vid showing a sleeping SM lifted off the EasyJet flight where GM was holding him, talking into microphone and aircraft engines were still turning and vehicles moving close-by but not a peep from SM. This can be evidenced by the science of sleep stages 3 and 4 which are difficult to wake from.
It is clear SC first opened fire on June lying in her bed. When NB heard the gunshots he left the call to JB and went to their bedroom as he arrived on the landing SC shot NB twice in the face. NB then turned to retreat downstairs and was shot twice in the rear.
I don't know why NB retreated downstairs. Having sustained two gunshots wounds to his face which would have killed him had other shots not supervened he may have felt he had no option. He may have intended to resume the phone call to JB, flee to raise the alarm or arm himself with the shotgun kept downstairs.
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or arm himself with the shotgun kept downstairs.
to shoot his own daughter %56&
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I don't know why NB retreated downstairs.
But you’ll make up all kinds of scenarios - so long as it doesn’t involve Bamber
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This turns her into a murderess?
You asked why she wouldn't have taken her own life next to the twins. I pointed out she told her psychiatrist she feared them and thought they wanted to have sex with her.
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It is clear SC first opened fire on June lying in her bed.
No it isn’t
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Of course he could have done it, and may well have done, but I'm not sure.
From what I have read (and mostly not on this forum), some people don't believe Julie was telling the truth, some are suspicious regarding the silencer having been found by relatives several days after the murders and after the police had searched the house, some people wonder whether Jeremy was "set up" by relatives who would benefit financially if he didn't inherit, and some do believe that Nevill rang the police and also rang Jeremy, saying that Sheila had "gone crazy" and had got hold of a gun. In addition, some believe that Sheila could physically have committed the murders, some also believe that she was still alive after the police and Jeremy had arrived at the farm.
I'm sure Holly will add more---she has gone into the forensics in great detail, which, I have to admit, I haven't done.
"some are suspicious regarding the silencer having been found by relatives several days after the murders and after the police had searched the house,"
We can be sure this was not the best ever police input at the farm by the looks of it. So I believe that is a moot point.
"some also believe that she was still alive after the police and Jeremy had arrived at the farm."
If she was still alive after shooting herself twice I would love to see the physical evidence of this. IF they believe what JB said at the time someone moved inside- implying Sheila was still alive then when did she die and why did they not hear gun shots -if there was no silencer.
I do not believe for one minute Colin would be connected to his children's murder to get hands on some Money. I also wonder about the family killing children for money- they were not living in penury.
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You asked why she wouldn't have taken her own life next to the twins. I pointed out she told her psychiatrist she feared them and thought they wanted to have sex with her.
Ffs Holly is this the best you can do - really *&^^&
This says more about you than any psychiatrist report
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10-2,the jury was satisfied beyond reasonable doubt,how can Bamber not have carried out these crimes?
May I suggest you look at other miscarriages of justice along with a detailed look at this case.
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The physical evidence at soc supports a phone call from JB.
What evidence exists showing a pho e call wasn't made?
What evidence supports a phone call?
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It is clear SC first opened fire on June lying in her bed. When NB heard the gunshots he left the call to JB
If ‘he left the call to JB’ after hearing ‘SC’s’ first shot fired upstairs - why was he on the phone in the first place?
Back to the drawing board
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May I suggest you look at other miscarriages of justice along with a detailed look at this case.
@)(++(*
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Only one person can be telling the truth. I wonder who?...
https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call (https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call)
or...
https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/colin-caffell-audio-on-jeremy-bamber (https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/colin-caffell-audio-on-jeremy-bamber)
They're not loading.
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Ffs Holly is this the best you can do - really *&^^&
This says more about you than any psychiatrist report
The report would more than likely repeat the patients thoughts. They would not be evidence of killing the children. Just a note of what she was thinking AT THAT MOMENT it was written. I am quite sure she would have been on sedentary medication to keep her calm. Not fit for a savage beating of a man over 6ft.
I have also read that-JB claims he left the gun out after shooting rabbits? where were these rabbits?
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You asked why she wouldn't have taken her own life next to the twins. I pointed out she told her psychiatrist she feared them and thought they wanted to have sex with her.
When did she say that though Holly?
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The report would more than likely repeat the patients thoughts. They would not be evidence of killing the children. Just a note of what she was thinking AT THAT MOMENT it was written. I am quite sure she would have been on sedentary medication to keep her calm. Not fit for a savage beating of a man over 6ft.
I have also read that-JB claims he left the gun out after shooting rabbits? where were these rabbits?
Apparently, there turned out to be no rabbits, but it seems that JB did leave the gun out.
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Apparently, there turned out to be no rabbits, but it seems that JB did leave the gun out.
Why does it seem this way to you; what evidence is there that he left ‘THE’ gun out?
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The report would more than likely repeat the patients thoughts. They would not be evidence of killing the children. Just a note of what she was thinking AT THAT MOMENT it was written. I am quite sure she would have been on sedentary medication to keep her calm. Not fit for a savage beating of a man over 6ft.
I have also read that-JB claims he left the gun out after shooting rabbits? where were these rabbits?
According to David B and Ann E, Bamber initially sated that he shot at the rabbits but missed. He must have realised that had he done so, there would have been shells and spent cartridges near to where he supposedly fired the shots he changed his story to having fired no shots because the rabbits had scarped.
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"some are suspicious regarding the silencer having been found by relatives several days after the murders and after the police had searched the house,"
We can be sure this was not the best ever police input at the farm by the looks of it. So I believe that is a moot point.
"some also believe that she was still alive after the police and Jeremy had arrived at the farm."
If she was still alive after shooting herself twice I would love to see the physical evidence of this. IF they believe what JB said at the time someone moved inside- implying Sheila was still alive then when did she die and why did they not hear gun shots -if there was no silencer.
I do not believe for one minute Colin would be connected to his children's murder to get hands on some Money. I also wonder about the family killing children for money- they were not living in penury.
AFAIK, nobody has ever accused Colin of having anything to do with the murders. I have come across various reasons why people believe in Jeremy's innocence, but that isn't one of them!
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Apparently, there turned out to be no rabbits
2009
Murder clue may be rabbit’s blood
Speaking from Full Sutton prison near York, Bamber said:
“We don’t know which animal’s blood was on the gun silcncer but it had been used to shoot rabbits so that would be a reasonable assumption. It is possible it wasn’t mentioned by anyone because it wasn’t thought relevant to the case but the significance of it is great.”
“So the Crown are now in a difficult position because they can no longer assert that it was Sheila’s blood in the gun silencer because of the finding of the AK1 enzyme.”
“I genuinely believe at long last that this is it.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/110446/Murder-clue-may-be-rabbit-s-blood
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Ffs Holly is this the best you can do - really *&^^&
This says more about you than any psychiatrist report
You have been advised previously not to make comments of a personal nature as above. In addition to the above you have used foul language, albeit in abbreviated format, and an emoticon that could be considered as goading.
Any repeats I will make a case for a temporary ban.
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One of two people did this crime,I'll ask again why couldn't Bamber have done it,what is the reasoning behind his supposed innocence? Is there something not presented to the court which would allow the Jury to reach a different conclusion.
May I suggest you ask the same questions about SC.
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You asked why she wouldn't have taken her own life next to the twins. I pointed out she told her psychiatrist she feared them and thought they wanted to have sex with her.
Have you signed the petition to release all documents to Bamber?
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It’s been online for 3 years or more and hasn’t even reached 10,000 signatures - since the ITV drama it’s had all of about 30-40 add ons (haven’t counted the exact amount)
Bamber supporters are few and far between of that there’s no doubt
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Thank you Myster for this. Yes, I am now convinced that there was no phone call.
His dad calls to say your sister has gone mad she has THE gun (the gun) strange terminology regarding recognising it was dads voice ? why not say' my dad called me' Anyway, upon hearing this terrible news he hung up... then phoned back????? WTF why? to ask if he wanted him to do something or call the police?
Rewind- deranged woman shooting people in house, there are children in there. call back to ask if they need anything. got the engaged tone? looked up local police number instead of 999.
JB=Guilty as hell!
JB didn't say he hung up. He said the line went dead so he then attempted to reconnect with his father and the line was engaged.
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If ‘he left the call to JB’ after hearing ‘SC’s’ first shot fired upstairs - why was he on the phone in the first place?
Back up Holly
Answer the above before you get ahead of yourself
JB didn't say he hung up. He said the line went dead so he then attempted to reconnect with his father and the line was engaged.
You’ve got NB on the phone to Bamber before the ‘first’ shot
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Bamber has rehearsed the phony call scenario so many times that he has it of pat to correlate with his statement.
But in reality it makes no logical sense
Only one person can be telling the truth. I wonder who?...
https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call (https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call)
or...
https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/colin-caffell-audio-on-jeremy-bamber (https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/colin-caffell-audio-on-jeremy-bamber)
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What evidence supports a phone call?
The physical evidence at soc that has been pored over numerous times: blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks. All this evidence supports JB's version of events: NB was on the phone; the perp opened fire on June upstairs; NB run upstairs and appeared on the landing with the perp stood just inside the bedroom; perp inflicts the two facial gunshot wounds to NB. NB turns to retreat downstairs and when facing the bottom of the stairs he is shot twice in the rear. Perp follows NB to the kitchen where he is beaten and sustains the 4 head shots.
How does the above fit with JB as perp? If JB was perp what would NB be doing on the landing facing the entrance to the bedroom? And why would JB squander 5 or 6 bullets on June hitting her limbs. I say 5 or 6 as it wasn't even determined at trial whether or not a bruise was caused by a bullet and if so whether this was a ricocheted bullet or not.
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It’s been online for 3 years or more and hasn’t even reached 10,000 signatures - since the ITV drama it’s had all of about 30-40 add ons (haven’t counted the exact amount)
Bamber supporters are few and far between of that there’s no doubt
I believe JB is innocent but haven't signed it.
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NB was on the phone; the perp opened fire on June upstairs; NB run upstairs
Why was NB on the phone if the “first’ shot has yet to be fired?
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Back up Holly
Answer the above before you get ahead of yourself
You’ve got NB on the phone to Bamber before the ‘first’ shot
How many more times do you expect me to ask you to refrain from making comments of a personal nature? Please just ask the question without all the add-one's.
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Back up Holly
Answer the above before you get ahead of yourself
You’ve got NB on the phone to Bamber before the ‘first’ shot
NB called JB before any shots were fired. When SC opened fire upstairs on June NB left the phone to JB and went upstairs.
If you think JB is guilty please provide your scenario based on the blood stains, location of casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks.
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Why was NB on the phone if the “first’ shot has yet to be fired?
Because according to JB, NB told him "Sheila's gone crazy she's got the gun".
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According to JM's later wit stats she was told by JB on 7th Aug he arranged for Matthew Macdonald to carry out the murders. The following day she identified the victims at the morgue. And it was a month later, when JB dumped her, she told DS Jones what he wanted to hear.
So her conscience had been unravelling for around a month. She told DS Jones the truth.
Bamber brought MacDonald into it to put some distance between himself and the murders as Julie was clearly rattled
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Thank you Myster for this. Yes, I am now convinced that there was no phone call.
His dad calls to say your sister has gone mad she has THE gun (the gun) strange terminology regarding recognising it was dads voice ? why not say' my dad called me' Anyway, upon hearing this terrible news he hung up... then phoned back????? WTF why? to ask if he wanted him to do something or call the police?
Rewind- deranged woman shooting people in house, there are children in there. call back to ask if they need anything. got the engaged tone? looked up local police number instead of 999.
JB=Guilty as hell!
Bamber painted himself into a corner with that 3 AM call. It excluded the possibility of a 3rd party being involved because if he was telling the truth, there was no need to lie about the contents of that phone call.
Nevertheless, it didn't stop him a few years ago from raising the possibility of a 3rd party, someone he knows cannot possibly exist because his own phone call narrowed it down to either him or Sheila! It's practically an admission of guilt.
He's so guilty as hell, it's not even up for debate any more. I can't believe that as recently as 2011 I was still sitting on the fence...
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Which begs the question why she didn't tell the police about his scheming beforehand or at the very least come clean on day 1.
It did beg the question, the jury would have pondered the question. Julie Mugford came clean, took the stand and the jury believed her. Her testimony "had the ring of truth about it"
Judging from Nicholas' post on page 14, she would do the same again tomorrow.
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So her conscience had been unravelling for around a month. She told DS Jones the truth.
Bamber brought MacDonald into it to put some distance between himself and the murders as Julie was clearly rattled
Bamber’s gaslighting of JM is clear to see on the ITV drama
‘What is gaslighting?
Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation and abuse that makes people question their own memory, perception, and sanity
The term comes from a 1938 stage play Gas Light in which a husband attempts to convince his wife and others that she is insane - when he dims the gas lights, he insists she's imagining it
There are three stages to gaslighting in a relationship: idealisation, devaluation and discard
In the idealisation stage the victim is whisked off their feet as the gaslighter projects an image of themselves as the perfect mate
The devaluation stage hits hard: the victim goes from being adored to being incapable of doing anything right, but having tasted the ideal they are desperate to put things right
Then comes the discard stage where the victim is dropped, ready for the next one - this often happens simultaneously with the idealisation, or grooming, of the next victim
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-41915425
and is evident with many of those individuals who’ve supported him over the years
He’s a serial gaslighter
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The physical evidence at soc that has been pored over numerous times: blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks. All this evidence supports JB's version of events: NB was on the phone; the perp opened fire on June upstairs; NB run upstairs and appeared on the landing with the perp stood just inside the bedroom; perp inflicts the two facial gunshot wounds to NB. NB turns to retreat downstairs and when facing the bottom of the stairs he is shot twice in the rear. Perp follows NB to the kitchen where he is beaten and sustains the 4 head shots.
How does the above fit with JB as perp? If JB was perp what would NB be doing on the landing facing the entrance to the bedroom? And why would JB squander 5 or 6 bullets on June hitting her limbs. I say 5 or 6 as it wasn't even determined at trial whether or not a bruise was caused by a bullet and if so whether this was a ricocheted bullet or not.
It does nothing of the sort! No matter how many times you parrot your imaginary evidence, it won't make it real. You've dug a hole so deep for yourself that you now find it impossible to climb out and see reason. Sorry Holly, but you are wrong.
Nevill was a wartime Mosquito pilot trained in the use of firearms and a lifelong shooter, who accidentally blinded his father-in-law Leslie Speakman's eye with a bullet that rebounded off a tree. So he was very well aware of the damage they could cause. That this fit veteran would allow his daughter to sneak past him with a loaded rifle and murder his wife and grandsons upstairs, while he wasted precious minutes on a rotary dial phone trying to kindle a sleeping log is frankly, unbelievable.
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Bamber painted himself into a corner with that 3 AM call. It excluded the possibility of a 3rd party being involved because if he was telling the truth, there was no need to lie about the contents of that phone call.
Nevertheless, it didn't stop him a few years ago from raising the possibility of a 3rd party, someone he knows cannot possibly exist because his own phone call narrowed it down to either him or Sheila! It's practically an admission of guilt.
He's so guilty as hell, it's not even up for debate any more. I can't believe that as recently as 2011 I was still sitting on the fence...
What got you off the fence, Steve?
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Hard to pin it one thing - but I think the phone call from WHF was key, it sounds plausible enough at first but when you thoroughly scrutinise it there are so many holes in his tale about the phone call - from Nevilll Bamber leafing through the yellow pages under a shower of bullets looking for the police telephone number instead of simply dialling 999 to the fact that he himself introduced the theory of a 3rd party killer when he knows that person cannot exist because Nevill told him during the phone call that "Sheila had gone crazy and got the gun" If he is innocent why lie about the phone call?
I'm not sure if I posted this link the other day, but this is the best objective article I have seen on the case and sums the FACTS logically and coherently. It was originally on the hearts and coronets website and someone kindly reposted it here (over several posts) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=922.0
It's all in there...
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It does nothing of the sort! No matter how many times you parrot your imaginary evidence, it won't make it real. You've dug a hole so deep for yourself that you now find it impossible to climb out and see reason. Sorry Holly, but you are wrong.
Nevill was a wartime Mosquito pilot trained in the use of firearms and a lifelong shooter, who accidentally blinded his father-in-law Leslie Speakman's eye with a bullet that rebounded off a tree. So he was very well aware of the damage they could cause. That this fit veteran would allow his daughter to sneak past him with a loaded rifle and murder his wife and grandsons upstairs, while he wasted precious minutes on a rotary dial phone trying to kindle a sleeping log is frankly, unbelievable.
Yes it does! By imaginery evidence I assume you mean the physical evidence at soc? The fact a reconstruction hasn't taken place to date doesn't mean it's not going to happen in the future. Had JB's trial been half decent a team of experts comprising of ballistics, biologist, pathologist and soc analysts would have mapped out in WHF exactly who was shot where and where the perp stood when he/she fired as in the case of farmer Tony Martin @ 46.44:
https://youtu.be/BemcOAg53eM
The ballistics expert, Freddie Mead, acted for the defense at JB's trial which begs the question why a reconstruction wasn't carried out during the trial?
Jill Dando sustained 1 gunshot wound on her doorstep. During BG's trial jurors were taken to the soc. WHF involved 25/26 gunshots and 5 fatalities and yet for whatever reason(s) the jury was not taken to WHF.
What has NB's wartime experience got to do with anything? He was with his mentally ill daughter not engaged in military conflict.
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It did beg the question, the jury would have pondered the question. Julie Mugford came clean, took the stand and the jury believed her. Her testimony "had the ring of truth about it"
Judging from Nicholas' post on page 14, she would do the same again tomorrow.
No one knows what weight jurors attribute to the various aspects of a case. In this case we know the judge warned jurors over its reliability. And we know jurors questions to the judge related solely to the blood/silencer.
In any event in terms of an appeal it is the blood/silencer that will ultimately undermine JB's conviction resulting in acquittal.
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Yes it does! By imaginery evidence I assume you mean the physical evidence at soc? The fact a reconstruction hasn't taken place to date doesn't mean it's not going to happen in the future. Had JB's trial been half decent a team of experts comprising of ballistics, biologist, pathologist and soc analysts would have mapped out in WHF exactly who was shot where and where the perp stood when he/she fired as in the case of farmer Tony Martin @ 46.44:
https://youtu.be/BemcOAg53eM
The ballistics expert, Freddie Mead, acted for the defense at JB's trial which begs the question why a reconstruction wasn't carried out during the trial?
Jill Dando sustained 1 gunshot wound on her doorstep. During BG's trial jurors were taken to the soc. WHF involved 25/26 gunshots and 5 fatalities and yet for whatever reason(s) the jury was not taken to WHF.
What has NB's wartime experience got to do with anything? He was with his mentally ill daughter not engaged in military conflict.
It's more than a little arrogant to make these claims given that the conclusions have been determined from a few amateur detectives on IA. The crime scene doesn't show that Bamber was innocent, far from it and his subsequent playing with the times - quite the opposite. How would a reconstruction put the gun in Sheila's hands? It could tell you where someone stood, but not who stood there. Also, the fact that Sheila's hand is still resting on the gun is highly suspicious - try it yourself, place your hand in the position and then totally relax.
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Hard to pin it one thing - but I think the phone call from WHF was key, it sounds plausible enough at first but when you thoroughly scrutinise it there are so many holes in his tale about the phone call - from Nevilll Bamber leafing through the yellow pages under a shower of bullets looking for the police telephone number instead of simply dialling 999 to the fact that he himself introduced the theory of a 3rd party killer when he knows that person cannot exist because Nevill told him during the phone call that "Sheila had gone crazy and got the gun" If he is innocent why lie about the phone call?
I'm not sure if I posted this link the other day, but this is the best objective article I have seen on the case and sums the FACTS logically and coherently. It was originally on the hearts and coronets website and someone kindly reposted it here (over several posts) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=922.0
It's all in there...
With respect Steve I haven't seen you post anything that's remotely scientific or capable of being measured objectively.
The soc contained a mountain of hard data none of which has been measured but thankfully is still available for objective analysis.
In terms of the blood/silencer again hard data can be reproduced by simply looking at the physics, fluid mechanics and biology to determine:
- whether the blood flake could withstand the environments and still produce the blood group results claimed.
- whether the physics/fluid mechanics of rifle/silencer/cartridges combi were capable of producing the drawback phenomenon as the prosecution claimed.
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With respect Steve I haven't seen you post anything that's remotely scientific or capable of being measured objectively.
The soc contained a mountain of hard data none of which has been measured but thankfully is still available for objective analysis.
In terms of the blood/silencer again hard data can be reproduced by simply looking at the physics, fluid mechanics and biology to determine:
- whether the blood flake could withstand the environments and still produce the blood group results claimed.
- whether the physics/fluid mechanics of rifle/silencer/cartridges combi were capable of producing the drawback phenomenon as the prosecution claimed.
We have been here before - do you know how many times those kind of experiments would need to be replicated in order to determine if the blood flake in the silencer is down to chance or a deliberate act? And as for the flake, you couldn't repeat the original conditions because we don't exactly know them and we don't have the original materials. For all those experiments, just one that produced similar results would render the whole thing null.
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It's more than a little arrogant to make these claims given that the conclusions have been determined from a few amateur detectives on IA. The crime scene doesn't show that Bamber was innocent, far from it and his subsequent playing with the times - quite the opposite. How would a reconstruction put the gun in Sheila's hands? It could tell you where someone stood, but not who stood there. Also, the fact that Sheila's hand is still resting on the gun is highly suspicious - try it yourself, place your hand in the position and then totally relax.
I think you will find I'm the originator of the soc reconstruction. It was first discussed here and then on IA. Why arrogant? I've simply connected all the dots that others for whatever reason(s) haven't. If others disagree then they're free to counter my arguments.
JB has never needed to demonstrate his innocence. If defendants needed to demonstrate innocence half the population would be in prison.
Soc construction is important because the physical evidence at soc puts perp in bedroom shooting June and NB on the landing when he sustained his facial shots. Which in turn supports JB's claim of a call from NB ie NB in kitchen phoning JB, NB hears gunshots from perp shooting June, NB runs upstairs and sustains the facial shots on the landing. He turns to retreat downstairs and sustains the gunshot wounds to his rear on the stairs.
There's no reliable evidence of SC's found position evidenced by A/PS Woodcock's wit stat, and others, who have SC's head wedged up against the bedside cabinet and soc images that show her head flat to the floor.
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We have been here before - do you know how many times those kind of experiments would need to be replicated in order to determine if the blood flake in the silencer is down to chance or a deliberate act? And as for the flake, you couldn't repeat the original conditions because we don't exactly know them and we don't have the original materials. For all those experiments, just one that produced similar results would render the whole thing null.
For those who believe JB guilty I assume they haven't been in contact with forensic scientists and the like?
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For those who believe JB guilty I assume they haven't been in contact with forensic scientists and the like?
You’re in a tiny minority Holly
What difference would it make?
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And if the prosecution had nothing to hide it begs the question why trial exhibits were destroyed against all judicial protocols. At JB's 2002 appeal hearing the judges were so perturbed by this they were going to order an investigation as to how this came about but instead decided to rule in JB's favour if required.
Destroying exhibits have deprived him of advancing his case. Eg new technology which enables fingerprints to be recovered from cartridges would have determined whether SC or JB's prints were on them.
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You’re in a tiny minority Holly
Do you have any data to back up your assertion?
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And if the prosecution had nothing to hide it begs the question why trial exhibits were destroyed against all judicial protocols. At JB's 2002 appeal hearing the judges were so perturbed by this they were going to order an investigation as to how this came about but instead decided to rule in JB's favour if required.
Destroying exhibits have deprived him of advancing his case. Eg new technology which enables fingerprints to be recovered from cartridges would have determined whether SC or JB's prints were on them.
https://youtu.be/UwiHV7nnG8g
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Do you have any data to back up your assertion?
Your posts on the forum 8((()*/
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I think you will find I'm the originator of the soc reconstruction. It was first discussed here and then on IA. Why arrogant? I've simply connected all the dots that others for whatever reason(s) haven't. If others disagree then they're free to counter my arguments.
JB has never needed to demonstrate his innocence. If defendants needed to demonstrate innocence half the population would be in prison.
Soc construction is important because the physical evidence at soc puts perp in bedroom shooting June and NB on the landing when he sustained his facial shots. Which in turn supports JB's claim of a call from NB ie NB in kitchen phoning JB, NB hears gunshots from perp shooting June, NB runs upstairs and sustains the facial shots on the landing. He turns to retreat downstairs and sustains the gunshot wounds to his rear on the stairs.
There's no reliable evidence of SC's found position evidenced by A/PS Woodcock's wit stat, and others, who have SC's head wedged up against the bedside cabinet and soc images that show her head flat to the floor.
It's arrogant because without any qualifications on the subject you're claiming big things.
The perp being on the landing doesn't support a call at all. All it proves is that prior to being the kitchen, Nevill was upstairs - nothing more.
Not sure what you mean by the last point?
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I think you will find I'm the originator of the soc reconstruction.
Don’t think you’ll have a problem with anyone else claiming it was theirs
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Your posts on the forum 8((()*/
You mean I'm the only one who posts here believing JB innocent? If so how can this be used to accurately gauge the level of support for JB against the population at large?
Despite the current TV series I doubt the population at large is interested in JB's case to the extent a) they hold strong views either way and b) if they did most are unlikely to want to spend much time on an Internet forum debating the case.
Afaik his CT and all those who tweet on his behalf are not active on forums.
The % of people with even a passing interest in JB is virtually non-existent.
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You mean I'm the only one who posts here believing JB innocent?
No, you asked for ‘data’
Do you have any data to back up your assertion?
I replied
Your posts on the forum 8((()*/
This was in response to
You’re in a tiny minority Holly
What difference would it make?
The ‘tiny minority’ I was referring to was you - the innocent/guilt argument being a side issue
I used ‘tiny minority’ instead of a minority of one
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It's arrogant because without any qualifications on the subject you're claiming big things.
The perp being on the landing doesn't support a call at all. All it proves is that prior to being the kitchen, Nevill was upstairs - nothing more.
Not sure what you mean by the last point?
No one needs any qualifications to connect the dots. I'm using data produced by experts and others. The data means something that's why it has been recorded eg trajectories of gunshot wounds, wound tracks and distance of shots. The fact others are unable or unwilling to attempt to make sense of it doesn't make someone arrogant who can and has.
Most, guilters and supporters, refer to subjective aspects of the case many of which didn't even feature at trial. I try to stick with objective aspects of the case.
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Don’t think you’ll have a problem with anyone else claiming it was theirs
I've secured my intellectual property rights just to be on the safe side.
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You mean I'm the only one who posts here believing JB innocent? If so how can this be used to accurately gauge the level of support for JB against the population at large?
Despite the current TV series I doubt the population at large is interested in JB's case to the extent a) they hold strong views either way and b) if they did most are unlikely to want to spend much time on an Internet forum debating the case.
Afaik his CT and all those who tweet on his behalf are not active on forums.
The % of people with even a passing interest in JB is virtually non-existent.
I agree, most people I know either have a buage recollection of the murders or have never heard of him at all. Outside of the forum, I don't discuss it.
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If so how can this be used to accurately gauge the level of support for JB against the population at large?
The facts speak for themselves
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No one needs any qualifications to connect the dots. I'm using data produced by experts and others. The data means something that's why it has been recorded eg trajectories of gunshot wounds, wound tracks and distance of shots. The fact others are unable or unwilling to attempt to make sense of it doesn't make someone arrogant who can and has.
Most, guilters and supporters, refer to subjective aspects of the case many of which didn't even feature at trial. I try to stick with objective aspects of the case.
No, you are interpreting the data in your way and your interpretations are just that 'yours'. The trajectories of gunshot wounds, wound tracks and distance of shots just mean that 'someone' fired the weapon. they don't reveal who.
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I've secured my intellectual property rights just to be on the safe side.
Oh okay @)(++(*
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With respect Steve I haven't seen you post anything that's remotely scientific or capable of being measured objectively.
The soc contained a mountain of hard data none of which has been measured but thankfully is still available for objective analysis.
In terms of the blood/silencer again hard data can be reproduced by simply looking at the physics, fluid mechanics and biology to determine:
- whether the blood flake could withstand the environments and still produce the blood group results claimed.
- whether the physics/fluid mechanics of rifle/silencer/cartridges combi were capable of producing the drawback phenomenon as the prosecution claimed.
I'm not a scientist, and nor do I need to be. It's enough to look at the facts which you conveniently ignore every time because they don't fit in with your long term goal of freeing Bamber regardless of guilt/innocence. Your scientific explanations are a transparent attempt to run away from these facts.
I explained this to you the other day, that your flogging a dead horse with this scientific soc analysis. Any findings will be pure conjecture the prosecution will simply call to the stand another (actual) scientist with different conclusions.
Of course had Bamber not insisted on burning the carpets we would likely understand perfectly what happened in what location in what order that night
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You mean I'm the only one who posts here believing JB innocent?
Do you still believe that Holly given everything we now know about what occurred that night?
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No, you are interpreting the data in your way and your interpretations are just that 'yours'. The trajectories of gunshot wounds, wound tracks and distance of shots just mean that 'someone' fired the weapon. they don't reveal who.
Well let's just say I can't see the defence calling me as an expert witness at JB's 3rd appeal but I can see experts reconstructing the soc along the lines I have.
I've never said a soc reconstruction will show who fired the weapon but what it will do is show where victims were when they sustained gunshot wounds and where the perp was when he/she fired the weapon.
At JB's trial the court was told none of the 3 adult victims sustained gsw's outside the bedroom. This is wrong. NB did not sustain any gsw's in the bedroom and Afaik this has always been your position?
At the 2002 appeal MT QC argued that DCI Ainsley used the kitchen phone to dial out and in doing so inadvertently removed blood from the phone. This is clearly nonsense but more importantly shows JB's own lawyers were not up to speed with the soc. If this is the extent of your legal representation then what hope for the defendent?
It was important for the whole court at trial to understand who was shot where and the position of perp when the weapon was fired. As it was the court was left asking the obvious questions: how could NB have called JB when the pathologist said he was incapable of purposeful speech after the gunshot wounds sustained upstairs and given the pathologist said these wounds produced heavy blood loss internally and externally then where were the blood stains on the phone? Had a reconstruction been carried out as the vid I posted earlier re farmer Tony Martin it would show NB's facial wounds were inflicted as he stood on the landing stairs with the perp stood inside the bedroom firing out onto the landing and this puts a whole different complexion on the claimed phone call.
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I'm not a scientist, and nor do I need to be. It's enough to look at the facts which you conveniently ignore every time because they don't fit in with your long term goal of freeing Bamber regardless of guilt/innocence. Your scientific explanations are a transparent attempt to run away from these facts.
I explained this to you the other day, that your flogging a dead horse with this scientific soc analysis. Any findings will be pure conjecture the prosecution will simply call to the stand another (actual) scientist with different conclusions.
Of course had Bamber not insisted on burning the carpets we would likely understand perfectly what happened in what location in what order that night
What facts would these be Steve? As far as I'm concerned the only facts relate to the physical evidence at soc: blood stains, casings, distance od shots, trajectories, wound tracks, pathological evidence, ballistics evidence.
What carpets did JB insist on burning? Soc officer DC Hammersly confirmed at trial everything of evidential value was recovered from WHF. Blood stains on NB/June's bedroom carpet were collected and analysed along with two small stains on the landing carpet. Blood stains on the stairs appear not to have been captured and analysed. According to AE the police cleaned the stairs carpet but if these stains did not originate from NB then who did they originate from and under what circumstances.
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Do you still believe that Holly given everything we now know about what occurred that night?
Yes there's not a scintilla of doubt in my mind that JB is innocent. Much of what is posted here is subjective eg JM's testimony or views on JB's character.
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What facts would these be Steve? As far as I'm concerned the only facts relate to the physical evidence at soc: blood stains, casings, distance od shots, trajectories, wound tracks, pathological evidence, ballistics evidence.
What carpets did JB insist on burning? Soc officer DC Hammersly confirmed at trial everything of evidential value was recovered from WHF. Blood stains on NB/June's bedroom carpet were collected and analysed along with two small stains on the landing carpet. Blood stains on the stairs appear not to have been captured and analysed. According to AE the police cleaned the stairs carpet but if these stains did not originate from NB then who did they originate from and under what circumstances.
Any new theory in relation to the physical evidence is up for conjecture and can be interpreted in different ways. You won't get past the CCRC. You conveniently ignore the veritable mountain of other facts which shore up the safety of his conviction. All of which have been discussed previously not only on this forum but this very thread.
Bamber insisted on burning the carpets, once the police told him they had all of evidential value for the trial. Personally if I was innocent and possessed a farm the size of a small country I would have retained them somewhere, particularly in light of the bungled police investigation.
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You mean I'm the only one who posts here believing JB innocent? If so how can this be used to accurately gauge the level of support for JB against the population at large?
Despite the current TV series I doubt the population at large is interested in JB's case to the extent a) they hold strong views either way and b) if they did most are unlikely to want to spend much time on an Internet forum debating the case.
Afaik his CT and all those who tweet on his behalf are not active on forums.
The % of people with even a passing interest in JB is virtually non-existent.
From reading around (Facebook pages, other forums, responses to reviews about the TV series) it seems that a good number of people are watching the TV series, and this includes some who don't remember the massacre.
This forum does not appear to be representative of how people feel: a lot of people are "on the fence" like me, a minority think JB is innocent (but a larger minority than you would think), although it is true that most think he is guilty. Even among those, there are a fair number who think JB may not have had a fair trial.
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Well let's just say I can't see the defence calling me as an expert witness at JB's 3rd appeal but I can see experts reconstructing the soc along the lines I have.
I've never said a soc reconstruction will show who fired the weapon but what it will do is show where victims were when they sustained gunshot wounds and where the perp was when he/she fired the weapon.
At JB's trial the court was told none of the 3 adult victims sustained gsw's outside the bedroom. This is wrong. NB did not sustain any gsw's in the bedroom and Afaik this has always been your position?
At the 2002 appeal MT QC argued that DCI Ainsley used the kitchen phone to dial out and in doing so inadvertently removed blood from the phone. This is clearly nonsense but more importantly shows JB's own lawyers were not up to speed with the soc. If this is the extent of your legal representation then what hope for the defendent?
It was important for the whole court at trial to understand who was shot where and the position of perp when the weapon was fired. As it was the court was left asking the obvious questions: how could NB have called JB when the pathologist said he was incapable of purposeful speech after the gunshot wounds sustained upstairs and given the pathologist said these wounds produced heavy blood loss internally and externally then where were the blood stains on the phone? Had a reconstruction been carried out as the vid I posted earlier re farmer Tony Martin it would show NB's facial wounds were inflicted as he stood on the landing stairs with the perp stood inside the bedroom firing out onto the landing and this puts a whole different complexion on the claimed phone call.
Yes, it has always been my position, once I understood about the case. However, I don't see how that would form part of an appeal because it doesn't render the case unsafe and it doesn't point to Nevill having called Jeremy. He quite easily could have called Jeremy before anyone (including himself) was shot and that's always been the case. I don't think it was denied that Jeremy COULD have received a call, just that it was unlikely and no matter where Nevill was when he was shot, it's still unlikely.
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From reading around (Facebook pages, other forums, responses to reviews about the TV series) it seems that a good number of people are watching the TV series, and this includes some who don't remember the massacre.
This forum does not appear to be representative of how people feel: a lot of people are "on the fence" like me, a minority think JB is innocent (but a larger minority than you would think), although it is true that most think he is guilty. Even among those, there are a fair number who think JB may not have had a fair trial.
I don't think social media pages are a good representation of the population. The Taback thread is testament to that.
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Compared to say 10-15 years ago, the golden age of free Bamber, I do reckon there has been a tangible shift in favour of his guilt, at least in my experience on various forums. Most of the apparently good, sensible posters abandoned him eventually.
His celebrity backers for the most part keep quiet about him now, he seems to have lost his 5th beatle status as a poster boy of miscarriage of justice that he kind of inherited for a while after Hanratty was proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt by DNA (very interesting case by the way)
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I don't think social media pages are a good representation of the population. The Taback thread is testament to that.
I would say that people who follow true crime cases and who are interested in MOJ's are not a good representation of the population!
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JB didn't say he hung up. He said the line went dead so he then attempted to reconnect with his father and the line was engaged.
I know I am being pedantic. But the phone call is an important part of the investigation.imo
Land lines in 1984 would have details of calls in the billing statement.
It seems a bit far fetched for a phone call to be abruptly ended from JB's side with no explanation, It would have had to be hung up if, when redialing the other phone, it means the person was still on a call- hence the engaged tone.
IF we are to believe that NB hung up- then the line would not be engaged when JB 'tried ' to call back for more details?
... how much more details would you need if someone calls you to say someone has gone nuts -has the gun?
I doubt very much that NB would call his son if he was terrified for his and his family's safety. He would have dialed police directly on 999. Why waste a phone call to son? what was he expected to do anyway?
I stand by my claim there was no phone call from NB to JB.
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Yes there's not a scintilla of doubt in my mind that JB is innocent. Much of what is posted here is subjective eg JM's testimony or views on JB's character.
I am shocked you still hold such a firm belief Holly given that only Jeremy Bamber had the inside knowledge and wherewithal, the skill and physical strength to have carried out these murders. There isn't a single scrap of exculpatory evidence despite the passage of almost 35 years. Don't you think that just a teensy weensy bit odd?
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I know I am being pedantic. But the phone call is an important part of the investigation.imo
Land lines in 1984 would have details of calls in the billing statement.
It seems a bit far fetched for a phone call to be abruptly ended from JB's side with no explanation, It would have had to be hung up if, when redialing the other phone, it means the person was still on a call- hence the engaged tone.
IF we are to believe that NB hung up- then the line would not be engaged when JB 'tried ' to call back for more details?
... how much more details would you need if someone calls you to say someone has gone nuts -has the gun?
I doubt very much that NB would call his son if he was terrified for his and his family's safety. He would have dialed police directly on 999. Why waste a phone call to son? what was he expected to do anyway?
I stand by my claim there was no phone call from NB to JB.
The idea of Nevill calling his drug taking, playboy son for help in the middle of the night is risible in the first place.
He told Barbara Wilson he feared him and was "capable of anything"
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The idea of Nevill calling his drug taking, playboy son for help in the middle of the night is risible in the first place.
He told Barbara Wilson he feared him and was "capable of anything"
Exactly, not many people came forward to refer to him as 'such a nice boy'.
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I know I am being pedantic. But the phone call is an important part of the investigation.imo
Land lines in 1984 would have details of calls in the billing statement.
It seems a bit far fetched for a phone call to be abruptly ended from JB's side with no explanation, It would have had to be hung up if, when redialing the other phone, it means the person was still on a call- hence the engaged tone.
IF we are to believe that NB hung up- then the line would not be engaged when JB 'tried ' to call back for more details?
... how much more details would you need if someone calls you to say someone has gone nuts -has the gun?
I doubt very much that NB would call his son if he was terrified for his and his family's safety. He would have dialed police directly on 999. Why waste a phone call to son? what was he expected to do anyway?
I stand by my claim there was no phone call from NB to JB.
I'll second that!
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I would say that people who follow true crime cases and who are interested in MOJ's are not a good representation of the population!
Yes, I agree with that. I guess we could be described as 'murder nurds' @)(++(* - although this is really the only case I follow.
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Exactly, not many people came forward to refer to him as 'such a nice boy'.
Indeed, and I think he really did send JM into a real tailspin of emotions with his behavior after the murders. She must have noticed how unaffected he was and couldn't actually believe it. That is probably why she came forward.
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I agree, most people I know either have a buage recollection of the murders or have never heard of him at all. Outside of the forum, I don't discuss it.
Yes it's an esoteric hobby alright!
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Any new theory in relation to the physical evidence is up for conjecture and can be interpreted in different ways. You won't get past the CCRC. You conveniently ignore the veritable mountain of other facts which shore up the safety of his conviction. All of which have been discussed previously not only on this forum but this very thread.
Bamber insisted on burning the carpets, once the police told him they had all of evidential value for the trial. Personally if I was innocent and possessed a farm the size of a small country I would have retained them somewhere, particularly in light of the bungled police investigation.
The new tests are not up for conjecture they're irrefutable based on establish branches of science: biology, chemistry, mathematics and physics.
The CCRC will refer the case to the Coa if it thinks the new evidence is capable of undermining his conviction.
What verifiable mountain of evidence are you referring to? The CCRC needs the wow factor to feel confident to pass to CoA as it did in 2002 with the blood/silencer. This will then pave the way for all the add-ons eg soc reconstruction.
JB did not insist any carpets were burned. It was DS Jones that asked JB to agree to the destruction of certain items.
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Yes, it has always been my position, once I understood about the case. However, I don't see how that would form part of an appeal because it doesn't render the case unsafe and it doesn't point to Nevill having called Jeremy. He quite easily could have called Jeremy before anyone (including himself) was shot and that's always been the case. I don't think it was denied that Jeremy COULD have received a call, just that it was unlikely and no matter where Nevill was when he was shot, it's still unlikely.
I agree a soc reconstruction is unlikely as a stand alone to meet CCRC criteria for a referral but it will be an extremely strong add-on. As I said above a third appeal needs the wow factor to undermine the blood/silencer irrefutably which requires private funding. Once the CCRC refer the case to Coa JB becomes eligible for legal aid to cover a range of other tests incl a soc reconstruction which supports a call from NB.
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I would say that people who follow true crime cases and who are interested in MOJ's are not a good representation of the population!
I understand true crime books are among the most popular but I agree most do not extend their interest beyond this.
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I know I am being pedantic. But the phone call is an important part of the investigation.imo
Land lines in 1984 would have details of calls in the billing statement.
It seems a bit far fetched for a phone call to be abruptly ended from JB's side with no explanation, It would have had to be hung up if, when redialing the other phone, it means the person was still on a call- hence the engaged tone.
IF we are to believe that NB hung up- then the line would not be engaged when JB 'tried ' to call back for more details?
... how much more details would you need if someone calls you to say someone has gone nuts -has the gun?
I doubt very much that NB would call his son if he was terrified for his and his family's safety. He would have dialed police directly on 999. Why waste a phone call to son? what was he expected to do anyway?
I stand by my claim there was no phone call from NB to JB.
The sort of phone data available today did not exist in 1985.
By all accounts the Bamber's kept SC's mental illness private. NB was a local magistrate who kept a number of firearms on his property none of which were kept in accordance with the law. WHF was very remote if NB called EP would they be able to locate it quickly? By calling JB it was getting him in the loop. Evidence exists the farm was growing opium poppies which no-one can account for.
A tel engineer was called at trial:
68. There was no evidence of telephone billing information of the sort which would be available these days. There was, however, expert evidence called as to the effect of a telephone call having been made from White House Farm to Goldhanger which was then abandoned by the caller with the receiver being left off the cradle, as claimed by the appellant. If such a sequence had occurred, the telephone link would have remained open either until the handset at White House Farm was replaced or until the handset at Goldhanger had been replaced and left in position for a period which could vary from 1 to 2 minutes, when an automatic interruption of the link would take place. Until one or other of these events, the appellant would have been unable to make any call from the Goldhanger telephone.
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Yes, I agree with that. I guess we could be described as 'murder nurds' @)(++(* - although this is really the only case I follow.
I follow quite a few----so I must, surely, qualify for the "murder nerd" description!
What, in particular, sparked your interest in this case, Caroline?
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I am shocked you still hold such a firm belief Holly given that only Jeremy Bamber had the inside knowledge and wherewithal, the skill and physical strength to have carried out these murders. There isn't a single scrap of exculpatory evidence despite the passage of almost 35 years. Don't you think that just a teensy weensy bit odd?
I disagree but take comfort in knowing I'm still your favourite moderator 8)-)))
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Exactly, not many people came forward to refer to him as 'such a nice boy'.
He certainly doesn't come over as a "nice boy" to me, despite me being undecided about his guilt.
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The idea of Nevill calling his drug taking, playboy son for help in the middle of the night is risible in the first place.
He told Barbara Wilson he feared him and was "capable of anything"
But this is all subjective, hearsay, rumour etc.
You refer to JB as a drug taker and playboy and yet all his circle were into recreational drugs including SC whose post mortem confirmed as much. In terms of playboy has any woman ever come forward to say he acted inappropriately? I've no interest in his sexual conquests or lack of but if adults consent what's the problem? He wasn't ever in any sort of serious committed relationship. If you want to get all moral about it what about CC going off to have sex outside with a woman at SC's 21st birthday and going off with another woman 5 months after SC gave birth to the twins.
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He certainly doesn't come over as a "nice boy" to me, despite me being undecided about his guilt.
What's the definition of nice? Does it matter when looking at the evidence? How would any of us know about his true character unless we spent time with him?
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The sort of phone data available today did not exist in 1985.
By all accounts the Bamber's kept SC's mental illness private. NB was a local magistrate who kept a number of firearms on his property none of which were kept in accordance with the law. WHF was very remote if NB called EP would they be able to locate it quickly? By calling JB it was getting him in the loop. Evidence exists the farm was growing opium poppies which no-one can account for.
A tel engineer was called at trial:
68. There was no evidence of telephone billing information of the sort which would be available these days. There was, however, expert evidence called as to the effect of a telephone call having been made from White House Farm to Goldhanger which was then abandoned by the caller with the receiver being left off the cradle, as claimed by the appellant. If such a sequence had occurred, the telephone link would have remained open either until the handset at White House Farm was replaced or until the handset at Goldhanger had been replaced and left in position for a period which could vary from 1 to 2 minutes, when an automatic interruption of the link would take place. Until one or other of these events, the appellant would have been unable to make any call from the Goldhanger telephone.[/i]
By calling JB it was getting him in the loop placing him in harms way and wasting valuable time- the emergency police wouldn't know how to get to the farm?- so how did they find out how to get there? * can't stop laughing at this bit*
"Evidence exists the farm was growing opium poppies which no-one can account for." was this the parents/family you think and not poor JB? What about the bit of bother JB got into down under? and the stolen money from the Cpark?
Was the tel engineer for the defence?
You could get itemised bill from BT in 1984 my parents still have some for tax purposes.
I have done that experiment I called my friend on land line then cut off- they tried to call me back and it wasn't engaged - it rang! We did it the other way- I phoned him- he cut me off then tried to phone me and it was engaged as I hadn't hung up. If the phone at WHF was used it was used by JB as a tactical ploy when he was there with the murdered family- IMO.
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By calling JB it was getting him in the loop placing him in harms way and wasting valuable time- the emergency police wouldn't know how to get to the farm?- so how did they find out how to get there? * can't stop laughing at this bit*
"Evidence exists the farm was growing opium poppies which no-one can account for." was this the parents/family you think and not poor JB? What about the bit of bother JB got into down under? and the stolen money from the Cpark?
Was the tel engineer for the defence?
You could get itemised bill from BT in 1984 my parents still have some for tax purposes.
I have done that experiment I called my friend on land line then cut off- they tried to call me back and it wasn't engaged - it rang! We did it the other way- I phoned him- he cut me off then tried to phone me and it was engaged as I hadn't hung up. If the phone at WHF was used it was used by JB as a tactical ploy when he was there with the murdered family- IMO.
Itemised billing definitely wasn't available for the numbers under investigation.
I don't know who called the tel expert.
Your experiment maybe the case for today's infrastructure and phones but we're talking 1985 pre digital.
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Itemised billing definitely wasn't available for the numbers under investigation.
I don't know who called the tel expert.
Your experiment maybe the case for today's infrastructure and phones but we're talking 1985 pre digital.
I am talking land lines-nothing has changed regard to that!
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I disagree but take comfort in knowing I'm still your favourite moderator 8)-)))
But why do you disagree Holly?
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Itemised billing definitely wasn't available for the numbers under investigation.
I don't know who called the tel expert.
Your experiment maybe the case for today's infrastructure and phones but we're talking 1985 pre digital.
If I recall correctly, local calls were billed as units but the technology didn't identify individual numbers. For out of area or national calls which were more expensive, individual numbers and the time and duration of the call was shown on the statement. Ditto international calls.
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68. There was no evidence of telephone billing information of the sort which would be available these days. There was, however, expert evidence called as to the effect of a telephone call having been made from White House Farm to Goldhanger which was then abandoned by the caller with the receiver being left off the cradle, as claimed by the appellant. If such a sequence had occurred, the telephone link would have remained open either until the handset at White House Farm was replaced or until the handset at Goldhanger had been replaced and left in position for a period which could vary from 1 to 2 minutes, when an automatic interruption of the link would take place. Until one or other of these events, the appellant would have been unable to make any call from the Goldhanger telephone.
I agree with the above. Had a call been made from WHF to Goldhanger and abandoned the line would have remained open. But had the caller at WHF cancelled the call by replacing the handset or pushing down on the handset receptors and left the handset off the hook then anyone calling WHF would get the engaged tone.
JB said the phone went dead which would indicate that someone cancelled the call and probably left the phone off the hook. However, imo, after committing mass murder, JB placed a call to Goldhanger himself before cancelling it and leaving the handset on the sideboard. This is consistent with what happened later as the local exchange operator was able to listen in on the open line to WHF.
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If I recall correctly, local calls were billed as units but the technology didn't identify individual numbers. For out of area or national calls which were more expensive, individual numbers and the time and duration of the call was shown on the statement. Ditto international calls.
You're right, they were billed in units, just like electricity - no itemised bills until later.
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The sort of phone data available today did not exist in 1985.
By all accounts the Bamber's kept SC's mental illness private. NB was a local magistrate who kept a number of firearms on his property none of which were kept in accordance with the law. WHF was very remote if NB called EP would they be able to locate it quickly? By calling JB it was getting him in the loop. Evidence exists the farm was growing opium poppies which no-one can account for.
A tel engineer was called at trial:
68. There was no evidence of telephone billing information of the sort which would be available these days. There was, however, expert evidence called as to the effect of a telephone call having been made from White House Farm to Goldhanger which was then abandoned by the caller with the receiver being left off the cradle, as claimed by the appellant. If such a sequence had occurred, the telephone link would have remained open either until the handset at White House Farm was replaced or until the handset at Goldhanger had been replaced and left in position for a period which could vary from 1 to 2 minutes, when an automatic interruption of the link would take place. Until one or other of these events, the appellant would have been unable to make any call from the Goldhanger telephone.
Of course they can! Bamber said they had a special licence to grow them.... his pet project as a step up from weed.
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The new tests are not up for conjecture they're irrefutable based on establish branches of science: biology, chemistry, mathematics and physics.
The CCRC will refer the case to the Coa if it thinks the new evidence is capable of undermining his conviction.
What verifiable mountain of evidence are you referring to? The CCRC needs the wow factor to feel confident to pass to CoA as it did in 2002 with the blood/silencer. This will then pave the way for all the add-ons eg soc reconstruction.
JB did not insist any carpets were burned. It was DS Jones that asked JB to agree to the destruction of certain items.
Too much reliance on excessive scientific theorising which can easily be challenged and refuted, I'm afraid, and not enough on common sense. The casing positions and bullet trajectories being cases in point, open to various interpretations and highly unlikely to bear the results you wish for. The original 1985 investigation findings will still stand; that both parents were in bed and awakened by an intruder entering their room and Nevill wasn't downstairs at 3am in his favourite chair reading the Farmer's Guardian. I dread to think how much money you're wasting... that is if you are actually funding any fruitless exercise and not just playing call my bluff.
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What's the definition of nice? Does it matter when looking at the evidence? How would any of us know about his true character unless we spent time with him?
According to my English teacher (1970s), the real definition of the word "nice " is "correct", so obviously, I'm using it incorrectly! (Funny how some things teachers say stick in one's mind many years later).
You are right that we can't really know someone without spending time with them (and I've no interest in getting to know JB, as he won't be the person he was in 1985). And I also agree that the evidence is what is important, not what sort of a person he was.
But, it seems, he was a liar and a thief , stealing from his own family's business. He was also unfaithful to his girlfriend, and liked to use money to show off. So, in my book, not a particularly pleasant person, although this does not necessarily mean he committed the murders.
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By calling JB it was getting him in the loop placing him in harms way and wasting valuable time- the emergency police wouldn't know how to get to the farm?- so how did they find out how to get there? * can't stop laughing at this bit*
"Evidence exists the farm was growing opium poppies which no-one can account for." was this the parents/family you think and not poor JB? What about the bit of bother JB got into down under? and the stolen money from the Cpark?
Was the tel engineer for the defence?
You could get itemised bill from BT in 1984 my parents still have some for tax purposes.
I have done that experiment I called my friend on land line then cut off- they tried to call me back and it wasn't engaged - it rang! We did it the other way- I phoned him- he cut me off then tried to phone me and it was engaged as I hadn't hung up. If the phone at WHF was used it was used by JB as a tactical ploy when he was there with the murdered family- IMO.
Re the opium poppies, I read somewhere (and I cannot remember where, nor can I find a reference to it, having looked), that Nevill had a licence for growing these, for the purpose of selling them to the pharmaceutical industry. Can't say whether this is true or hearsay, I'm afraid.
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The new tests are not up for conjecture they're irrefutable based on establish branches of science: biology, chemistry, mathematics and physics.
The CCRC will refer the case to the Coa if it thinks the new evidence is capable of undermining his conviction.
What verifiable mountain of evidence are you referring to? The CCRC needs the wow factor to feel confident to pass to CoA as it did in 2002 with the blood/silencer. This will then pave the way for all the add-ons eg soc reconstruction.
JB did not insist any carpets were burned. It was DS Jones that asked JB to agree to the destruction of certain items.
The new tests will be a complete waste of time, sad, pointless and risible. Those "same established branches of science" will simply produce another test showing that you can come to a different conclusion. It will never get past the CCRC.
DS Jones did not ask JB to agree to burn his own carpet. He informed him they were finished with them. JB's own decision to burn the carpet.
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What's the definition of nice? Does it matter when looking at the evidence? How would any of us know about his true character unless we spent time with him?
Of course we can learn something about his character from the dozens of contemporary witness statements about him as well as his own. For example we know he ripped off his parents caravan park, what conclusions can we draw from that? nice lad eh
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Re the opium poppies, I read somewhere (and I cannot remember where, nor can I find a reference to it, having looked), that Nevill had a licence for growing these, for the purpose of selling them to the pharmaceutical industry. Can't say whether this is true or hearsay, I'm afraid.
Yes that is true, it's in one of the books. Noted with amusement the way Holly hinted at Nevill being some kind of drug kingpin - "no-one can account for"
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Too much reliance on excessive scientific theorising which can easily be challenged and refuted, I'm afraid, and not enough on common sense. The casing positions and bullet trajectories being cases in point, open to various interpretations and highly unlikely to bear the results you wish for. The original 1985 investigation findings will still stand; that both parents were in bed and awakened by an intruder entering their room and Nevill wasn't downstairs at 3am in his favourite chair reading the Farmer's Guardian. I dread to think how much money you're wasting... that is if you are actually funding any fruitless exercise and not just playing call my bluff.
I agree, ballistics testing will not prove anything one way or another. But then it's all about keeping Bamber in the public eye because that it what he feeds on. He will never be freed and rightly so imo. He should come out of prison in a box and be cremated.
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According to my English teacher (1970s), the real definition of the word "nice " is "correct", so obviously, I'm using it incorrectly! (Funny how some things teachers say stick in one's mind many years later).
You are right that we can't really know someone without spending time with them (and I've no interest in getting to know JB, as he won't be the person he was in 1985). And I also agree that the evidence is what is important, not what sort of a person he was.
But, it seems, he was a liar and a thief , stealing from his own family's business. He was also unfaithful to his girlfriend, and liked to use money to show off. So, in my book, not a particularly pleasant person, although this does not necessarily mean he committed the murders.
There are a number of forum members who knew Bamber very well and who no longer believe him. That says it all imo.
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But why do you disagree Holly?
Blood/silencer
All my research (written material from highly qualified experts in US) leads me to conclude the little known phenomenon referred to as 'drawback' would not present the way in which the prosecution claimed it did.
Email communication I have exchanged with US experts, including arguably the world's leading authority on blood serology, conflict with what has been claimed by the prosecution with regard to the blood flake in the silencer.
Scene of crime reconstruction
To date this hasn't been carried out. Based on evidence provided by Dr Vanezis and others and then simply connecting it up NB did not sustain any gsw's in the bedroom. All the physical evidence by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories, wound tracks shows the perp opened fire on June whilst she was lying in bed; NB
then sustained his facial wounds on the landing as he was facing the bedroom with the perp just inside the bedroom shooting out onto the landing.
Lack of debris on SC's hands/nightdress
I think SC's found state is consistent with her as perp. Tests for GSR did not take place. The test for lead was unscientific.
I visited a gun shop and loaded the exact same cartridges into the exact same mag:
- the process was simple and easy to execute
- my hands were perfectly clean to the naked eye
- I did not damage any nails in the process
- the only established forensic test used to determine whether or not someone has recently discharged a firearm is a test for the presence of GSR (which wasn't carried out) and yet in this case the court was told the presence of gun oil would be expected on SC's nightdress.
SC's Found Position
First respondent A/PS Woodcock refers to SC's head wedged against the bedside cabinet. Soc images were taken some 4 hours later which show her head flat to the ground. How did this come about if she wasn't moved.? In fact it supports Dr Ismail's testimony that SC was moved at soc but this was post firearms entering and pre soc images taken.
Unfair trial/poor legal representation
A reconstruction of the shooting should have taken place to show exactly where the victims were shot and position of shooter.
Jurors and judge needed to attend WHF to see the above for themselves along with how JB was supposed to have entered and exited any windows. If it was possible to slam shut a window into the closed position from outside let jurors and judge see for themselves.
Rivlin's strategy of accepting the silencer was used but that the blood flake represented an intimate mix of NB and June's blood with SC deciding to return the silencer to the cupboard before taking her own life doesn't hold up.
Lawson did not challenge Fletcher when asked if any of the adult victims sustained upstairs gunshot wounds outside the bedroom. When Fletcher said no he simply accepted this.
Malcom Fletcher
Most of the evidence used to convict JB was based on Fletcher's evidence. At trial he told the court he had a few years experience in the firearms dept and a small amount of experience with a rifle as a small boy. There's no evidence this individual was appropriately qualified to provide reliable testimony to the court.
And there's no doubt in my mind whatsoever JB's conviction will eventually be overturned based on new forensic tests.
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Blood/silencer
All my research (written material from highly qualified experts in US) leads me to conclude the little known phenomenon referred to as 'drawback' would not present the way in which the prosecution claimed it did.
Email communication I have exchanged with US experts, including arguably the world's leading authority on blood serology, conflict with what has been claimed by the prosecution with regard to the blood flake in the silencer.
Scene of crime reconstruction
To date this hasn't been carried out. Based on evidence provided by Dr Vanezis and others and then simply connecting it up NB did not sustain any gsw's in the bedroom. All the physical evidence by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories, wound tracks shows the perp opened fire on June whilst she was lying in bed; NB
then sustained his facial wounds on the landing as he was facing the bedroom with the perp just inside the bedroom shooting out onto the landing.
Lack of debris on SC's hands/nightdress
I think SC's found state is consistent with her as perp. Tests for GSR did not take place. The test for lead was unscientific.
I visited a gun shop and loaded the exact same cartridges into the exact same mag:
- the process was simple and easy to execute
- my hands were perfectly clean to the naked eye
- I did not damage any nails in the process
- the only established forensic test used to determine whether or not someone has recently discharged a firearm is a test for the presence of GSR (which wasn't carried out) and yet in this case the court was told the presence of gun oil would be expected on SC's nightdress.
SC's Found Position
First respondent A/PS Woodcock refers to SC's head wedged against the bedside cabinet. Soc images were taken some 4 hours later which show her head flat to the ground. How did this come about if she wasn't moved.? In fact it supports Dr Ismail's testimony that SC was moved at soc but this was post firearms entering and pre soc images taken.
Unfair trial/poor legal representation
A reconstruction of the shooting should have taken place to show exactly where the victims were shot and position of shooter.
Jurors and judge needed to attend WHF to see the above for themselves along with how JB was supposed to have entered and exited any windows. If it was possible to slam shut a window into the closed position from outside let jurors and judge see for themselves.
Rivlin's strategy of accepting the silencer was used but that the blood flake represented an intimate mix of NB and June's blood with SC deciding to return the silencer to the cupboard before taking her own life doesn't hold up.
Lawson did not challenge Fletcher when asked if any of the adult victims sustained upstairs gunshot wounds outside the bedroom. When Fletcher said no he simply accepted this.
Malcom Fletcher
Most of the evidence used to convict JB was based on Fletcher's evidence. At trial he told the court he had a few years experience in the firearms dept and a small amount of experience with a rifle as a small boy. There's no evidence this individual was appropriately qualified to provide reliable testimony to the court.
And there's no doubt in my mind whatsoever JB's conviction will eventually be overturned based on new forensic tests.
PS
Blood stained bible
All blood stained exhibits were collected by soc officers, given an exhibit number and bagged up for forensics which included the bible. Biologists John Haywood and Glynis Howard carried out testing on all blood stained exhibits but for some unknown reason test results for the Bible remain unknown.
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Blood/silencer
All my research (written material from highly qualified experts in US) leads me to conclude the little known phenomenon referred to as 'drawback' would not present the way in which the prosecution claimed it did.
Email communication I have exchanged with US experts, including arguably the world's leading authority on blood serology, conflict with what has been claimed by the prosecution with regard to the blood flake in the silencer.
Scene of crime reconstruction
To date this hasn't been carried out. Based on evidence provided by Dr Vanezis and others and then simply connecting it up NB did not sustain any gsw's in the bedroom. All the physical evidence by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories, wound tracks shows the perp opened fire on June whilst she was lying in bed; NB
then sustained his facial wounds on the landing as he was facing the bedroom with the perp just inside the bedroom shooting out onto the landing.
Lack of debris on SC's hands/nightdress
I think SC's found state is consistent with her as perp. Tests for GSR did not take place. The test for lead was unscientific.
I visited a gun shop and loaded the exact same cartridges into the exact same mag:
- the process was simple and easy to execute
- my hands were perfectly clean to the naked eye
- I did not damage any nails in the process
- the only established forensic test used to determine whether or not someone has recently discharged a firearm is a test for the presence of GSR (which wasn't carried out) and yet in this case the court was told the presence of gun oil would be expected on SC's nightdress.
SC's Found Position
First respondent A/PS Woodcock refers to SC's head wedged against the bedside cabinet. Soc images were taken some 4 hours later which show her head flat to the ground. How did this come about if she wasn't moved.? In fact it supports Dr Ismail's testimony that SC was moved at soc but this was post firearms entering and pre soc images taken.
Unfair trial/poor legal representation
A reconstruction of the shooting should have taken place to show exactly where the victims were shot and position of shooter.
Jurors and judge needed to attend WHF to see the above for themselves along with how JB was supposed to have entered and exited any windows. If it was possible to slam shut a window into the closed position from outside let jurors and judge see for themselves.
Rivlin's strategy of accepting the silencer was used but that the blood flake represented an intimate mix of NB and June's blood with SC deciding to return the silencer to the cupboard before taking her own life doesn't hold up.
Lawson did not challenge Fletcher when asked if any of the adult victims sustained upstairs gunshot wounds outside the bedroom. When Fletcher said no he simply accepted this.
Malcom Fletcher
Most of the evidence used to convict JB was based on Fletcher's evidence. At trial he told the court he had a few years experience in the firearms dept and a small amount of experience with a rifle as a small boy. There's no evidence this individual was appropriately qualified to provide reliable testimony to the court.
And there's no doubt in my mind whatsoever JB's conviction will eventually be overturned based on new forensic tests.
I could load thr magazine now, because I have seen it done due to my interest on here. I could probably fit it to a rifle and chamber the first shot for the same reasons. However, without any f that knowledge, I would struggle and defo not kow that you need to chamber the first shell - add to that a psychotic attack and you can forget the whole thing. How many times did you load the magazine and were they tested for GSR?
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Of course they can! Bamber said they had a special licence to grow them.... his pet project as a step up from weed.
NB had ultimate responsibility for anything grown at WHF.
We've covered this numerous times. The UK gov has never granted licences to UK farmers to grow opium poppies. It is the pharma company that is granted the licence to manufacture opoids. The pharma company then contracts with the farmer.
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NB had ultimate responsibility for anything grown at WHF.
We've covered this numerous times. The UK gov has never granted licences to UK farmers to grow opium poppies. It is the pharma company that is granted the licence to manufacture opoids. The pharma company then contracts with the farmer.
Either way, they had premission.
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Too much reliance on excessive scientific theorising which can easily be challenged and refuted, I'm afraid, and not enough on common sense. The casing positions and bullet trajectories being cases in point, open to various interpretations and highly unlikely to bear the results you wish for. The original 1985 investigation findings will still stand; that both parents were in bed and awakened by an intruder entering their room and Nevill wasn't downstairs at 3am in his favourite chair reading the Farmer's Guardian. I dread to think how much money you're wasting... that is if you are actually funding any fruitless exercise and not just playing call my bluff.
A reconstruction will stand up to scrutiny the same way it did in the case of Tony Martin at 46 mind in:
https://youtu.be/BemcOAg53eM
The silencer/blood are the only tests that require private funding. Once a referral is made to Coa JB becomes eligible for legal aid for further tests so in effect you and others here as taxpayers will be funding it 8((()*/
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A reconstruction will stand up to scrutiny the same way it did in the case of Tony Martin at 46 mind in:
https://youtu.be/BemcOAg53eM
The silencer/blood are the only tests that require private funding. Once a referral is made to Coa JB becomes eligible for legal aid for further tests so in effect you and others here as taxpayers will be funding it 8((()*/
Tony Martin case is different, they had witness's as to what happened - Martin and the prep that survived, there were none in the Bamber case so it's always going to be a best guess.
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A reconstruction will stand up to scrutiny the same way it did in the case of Tony Martin at 46 mind in:
https://youtu.be/BemcOAg53eM
The silencer/blood are the only tests that require private funding. Once a referral is made to Coa JB becomes eligible for legal aid for further tests so in effect you and others here as taxpayers will be funding it 8((()*/
Money well spent to see your theory batted away for 6 by another 'expert' who supports the original evidence
Nah, nothing to see here. Bamber will die in prison.
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According to my English teacher (1970s), the real definition of the word "nice " is "correct", so obviously, I'm using it incorrectly! (Funny how some things teachers say stick in one's mind many years later).
You are right that we can't really know someone without spending time with them (and I've no interest in getting to know JB, as he won't be the person he was in 1985). And I also agree that the evidence is what is important, not what sort of a person he was.
But, it seems, he was a liar and a thief , stealing from his own family's business. He was also unfaithful to his girlfriend, and liked to use money to show off. So, in my book, not a particularly pleasant person, although this does not necessarily mean he committed the murders.
I recall a former boss who started off his career as an English teacher and his pet hate seemed to be the word 'nice'.
But most of the main protagonists do not come up smelling of roses:
JM was happy to assist JB with the caravan park break-in. She was also happy to sell JB's homegrown cannabis on campus. And she was happy to carry out other crimes independent of JB eg cheque book fraud and using cocaine.
AE comes over as greedy and grasping. Her husband, Peter Eaton, was reported to the police by farm secretary, Barbara Wilkinson, for financial impropriety at WHF.
CC by his own admission in his book let SC down in many ways. He eventually left SC and the twins for another woman when the twins were 5 months old.
You point out JB was unfaithful to his girlfriend but given he was unfaithful with her best friend what does this say about the best friend?
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Money well spent to see your theory batted away for 6 by another 'expert' who supports the original evidence
Nah, nothing to see here. Bamber will die in prison.
It won't happen anyway because Bamber wouldn't get passed the first post with this so called 'new evidence' - it's not new and it's not evidence.
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I recall a former boss who started off his career as an English teacher and his pet hate seemed to be the word 'nice'.
But most of the main protagonists do not come up smelling of roses:
JM was happy to assist JB with the caravan park break-in. She was also happy to sell JB's homegrown cannabis on campus. And she was happy to carry out other crimes independent of JB eg cheque book fraud and using cocaine.
AE comes over as greedy and grasping. Her husband, Peter Eaton, was reported to the police by farm secretary, Barbara Wilkinson, for financial impropriety at WHF.
CC by his own admission in his book let SC down in many ways. He eventually left SC and the twins for another woman when the twins were 5 months old.
You point out JB was unfaithful to his girlfriend but given he was unfaithful with her best friend what does this say about the best friend?
Of course that's true but all of those people had friends to support them, at the end of the day, any friends he did have, seemed to disappear - why do you think that is?
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A reconstruction will stand up to scrutiny the same way it did in the case of Tony Martin at 46 mind in:
https://youtu.be/BemcOAg53eM
The silencer/blood are the only tests that require private funding. Once a referral is made to Coa JB becomes eligible for legal aid for further tests so in effect you and others here as taxpayers will be funding it 8((()*/
Grasping and straws come to mind?
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Was Brett Collins called to give evidence at Bamber's trial?
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I recall a former boss who started off his career as an English teacher and his pet hate seemed to be the word 'nice'.
But most of the main protagonists do not come up smelling of roses:
JM was happy to assist JB with the caravan park break-in. She was also happy to sell JB's homegrown cannabis on campus. And she was happy to carry out other crimes independent of JB eg cheque book fraud and using cocaine.
AE comes over as greedy and grasping. Her husband, Peter Eaton, was reported to the police by farm secretary, Barbara Wilkinson, for financial impropriety at WHF.
CC by his own admission in his book let SC down in many ways. He eventually left SC and the twins for another woman when the twins were 5 months old.
You point out JB was unfaithful to his girlfriend but given he was unfaithful with her best friend what does this say about the best friend?
Are you comparing a mass murderer with petty theft?
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Was Brett Collins called to give evidence at Bamber's trial?
No, I don't have the book to hand at the moment but i'm fairly sure he wasn't
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Was Brett Collins called to give evidence at Bamber's trial?
I think he was long gone by then.
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I recall a former boss who started off his career as an English teacher and his pet hate seemed to be the word 'nice'.
But most of the main protagonists do not come up smelling of roses:
JM was happy to assist JB with the caravan park break-in. She was also happy to sell JB's homegrown cannabis on campus. And she was happy to carry out other crimes independent of JB eg cheque book fraud and using cocaine.
AE comes over as greedy and grasping. Her husband, Peter Eaton, was reported to the police by farm secretary, Barbara Wilkinson, for financial impropriety at WHF.
CC by his own admission in his book let SC down in many ways. He eventually left SC and the twins for another woman when the twins were 5 months old.
You point out JB was unfaithful to his girlfriend but given he was unfaithful with her best friend what does this say about the best friend?
Agreed. I just didn't have the courage to name names!
And, both policemen (Taff and Stan) come over in the TV series as being bullies, although I don't know if they really were.
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Agreed. I just didn't have the courage to name names!
And, both policemen (Taff and Stan) come over in the TV series as being bullies, although I don't know if they really were.
Taff's portrayal was too OTT for me, especially the headbutt, but I doubt that Stan forced a lab assistant to demonstrate the Anschutz 525 (which was genuine, as was the Parker-Hale moderator they used) with - "Young lady, take your shoes off... You'll do... Sit down and shoot yourself... Don't worry, it's not loaded"...
[attachment deleted by admin]
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No, I don't have the book to hand at the moment but i'm fairly sure he wasn't
I think he was long gone by then.
Yep, Collins was in Oz by the time of the 1986 trial, so not called as a Defence witness, but he did receive a letter from Bamber saying that when (not if) he was acquitted the farm would be sold to make way for a new life down under... which, of course, is what he had planned from the beginning.
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Yep, Collins was in Oz by the time of the 1986 trial, so not called as a Defence witness, but he did receive a letter from Bamber saying that when (not if) he was acquitted the farm would be sold to make way for a new life down under... which, of course, is what he had planned from the beginning.
Are you suggesting Brett Collins could know more than he’s ever let on?
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Are you suggesting Brett Collins could know more than he’s ever let on?
I've no idea... but Bamber did enjoy his period down under; surfing, scuba-diving and getting up to mischief, so he'd be well away from spending a life of thankless drudgery at WHF and reminders of what he'd done.
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Are you suggesting Brett Collins could know more than he’s ever let on?
More pillow talk, perhaps?
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Are you suggesting Brett Collins could know more than he’s ever let on?
It's speculative, but I always considered it likely that Collins had at least an inkling, going by Bamber's previous form for verbal incontinence and the close bond between the two which continued post- murders.
John and I discussed this the other night, you can't get more alibi than being out of the country at the time of the murders, and my understanding is he scarpered back home pretty quickly following the arrest. Possibly he thought it was all just bluster and he never thought his friend would go through with it.
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Many of the people who believe that JB is innocent seem to be female. Is this coincidence?
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It's speculative, but I always considered it likely that Collins had at least an inkling, going by Bamber's previous form for verbal incontinence and the close bond between the two which continued post- murders.
John and I discussed this the other night, you can't get more alibi than being out of the country at the time of the murders, and my understanding is he scarpered back home pretty quickly following the arrest. Possibly he thought it was all just bluster and he never thought his friend would go through with it.
“In a 1986 interview with the Star, Brett declared that Jeremy 'fell in love with a millionairess. 'She fell for him. They weren't many girls he couldn't pull. He was an absolute charmer.
"'I warned him he was suspect number one on the police list for the killings, but he wasn't bothered. He just wanted to enjoy himself while he could.
https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/jeremy-bamber-speaks-from-prison-over-white-house-farm-murders-1-6486958
Who did Bamber fall in love with in France?
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Many of the people who believe that JB is innocent seem to be female. Is this coincidence?
Hi James. Welcome to the forum.
Coincidence with what?
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Of course that's true but all of those people had friends to support them, at the end of the day, any friends he did have, seemed to disappear - why do you think that is?
I don't know the extent of JB's circle pre and post murders. I know a number of people stuck by him during the trial: The Howies, who were related to June, former girlfriend Suzette Ford, current girlfriend Virginia Greaves, Brett Collins.
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Tony Martin case is different, they had witness's as to what happened - Martin and the prep that survived, there were none in the Bamber case so it's always going to be a best guess.
If you listen to the narrator she states without the reconstruction it was one man's word against the others but the reconstruction was able to conclude who was where when the shots were fired.
Soc reconstruction is a standard forensic test with shooting cases. Probably the most famous is the JFK reconstruction.
No probs at all with a WHF reconstruction.
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Money well spent to see your theory batted away for 6 by another 'expert' who supports the original evidence
Nah, nothing to see here. Bamber will die in prison.
I'm afraid not. There's too much data for it to be batted away. 25/26 gunshots is a lot of data.
How do you think convictions are quashed if everything can just be batted away?
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It won't happen anyway because Bamber wouldn't get passed the first post with this so called 'new evidence' - it's not new and it's not evidence.
What new evidence are you referring to?
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If you listen to the narrator she states without the reconstruction it was one man's word against the others but the reconstruction was able to conclude conclusively who was where when the shots were fired.
Soc reconstruction is a standard forensic test with shooting cases. Probably the most famous is the JFK reconstruction.
No probs at all with a WHF reconstruction.
Yes I know but what I mean was that had a two starting points, ie. something to prove/disprove.
The JFK is a classic but they still have problems with it.
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What new evidence are you referring to?
The stuff that was recently in the press pre drama - phone call from Nevill that never happened and the 999 call around 6ish that never happened.
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Grasping and straws come to mind?
How is a soc reconstruction grasping at straws? Should have happened during the trial.
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Yes I know but what I mean was that had a two starting points, ie. something to prove/disprove.
The JFK is a classic but they still have problems with it.
Same for WHF: Did NB sustain his upstairs gsw's in the bedroom or landing.
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How is a soc reconstruction grasping at straws? Should have happened during the trial.
Which is why it's too late now. You mentioned JFK? They knew where LHO shot the rifle from and they knew where JFK was hit, they had both photographic and video footage of him being shot. With the Bamber case, not so easy as there were no witnesses, just the CS photo's.
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The stuff that was recently in the press pre drama - phone call from Nevill that never happened and the 999 call around 6ish that never happened.
Oh yeah that's not going anywhere along with general claims about two silencers.
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Are you comparing a mass murderer with petty theft?
MrsWah said regardless of whether JB committed the murders he didn't come over as a nice person and I said most of the main protagonists don't. .
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Yep, Collins was in Oz by the time of the 1986 trial, so not called as a Defence witness, but he did receive a letter from Bamber saying that when (not if) he was acquitted the farm would be sold to make way for a new life down under... which, of course, is what he had planned from the beginning.
BC did attend some of the trial. There's an image of him somewhere arriving at court with Anji Greaves.
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BC did attend some of the trial. There's an image of him somewhere arriving at court with Anji Greaves.
https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/mr-brett-collins-and-angela-greaves-the-29-year-old-news-photo/830974720
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Which is why it's too late now. You mentioned JFK? They knew where LHO shot the rifle from and they knew where JFK was hit, they had both photographic and video footage of him being shot. With the Bamber case, not so easy as there were no witnesses, just the CS photo's.
It's not too late. Please listen to the Tony Martin vid and you will see Major Mead attended Bleak Farm long after the events had taken place.
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Yep, Collins was in Oz by the time of the 1986 trial, so not called as a Defence witness, but he did receive a letter from Bamber saying that when (not if) he was acquitted the farm would be sold to make way for a new life down under... which, of course, is what he had planned from the beginning.
Where's the evidence of a letter from JB to BC re the above?
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I've no idea... but Bamber did enjoy his period down under; surfing, scuba-diving and getting up to mischief, so he'd be well away from spending a life of thankless drudgery at WHF and reminders of what he'd done.
What mischief are you referring to? There's no evidence whatsoever he was involved in any criminality down under.
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It's not too late. Please listen to the Tony Martin vid and you will see Major Mead attended Bleak Farm long after the events had taken place.
OK, will listen later.
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https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780123822413/shooting-incident-reconstruction
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OK, will listen later.
Shall I wait up? 8)-)))
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Shall I wait up? 8)-)))
Ha, ha! No, I meant I'll listen tomorrow - thanks for the link 8)--))
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Whats the video called?
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Either way, they had premission.
Not Afaik.
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The new tests will be a complete waste of time, sad, pointless and risible. Those "same established branches of science" will simply produce another test showing that you can come to a different conclusion. It will never get past the CCRC.
DS Jones did not ask JB to agree to burn his own carpet. He informed him they were finished with them. JB's own decision to burn the carpet.
It all sounds like wishful thinking on your part Steve.
You have no understanding of the tests to know whether or not they will be a waste of time.
How do you think high profile contentious cases are eventually undermined to the extent convictions are quashed if everything can simply be batted away?
You are wrong on the third point. It was DS Jones who initiated the burning of carpets and sought JB's approval.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1056.0;attach=2206
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Re the opium poppies, I read somewhere (and I cannot remember where, nor can I find a reference to it, having looked), that Nevill had a licence for growing these, for the purpose of selling them to the pharmaceutical industry. Can't say whether this is true or hearsay, I'm afraid.
The opium poppies are a mystery. According to police surgeon Dr Craig shortly after JB was told about the deaths he was found wandering around the yard clutching a bunch of poppies. JB told Dr Craig the farm had a licence to grow opium poppies for the pharma industry and yet the first UK licence granted by the gov to grow opium poppies in the UK was late 90's/early noughties. And the licence was with the pharma company not the farmer.
Dr Craig asked Chief Sup Harris if the farm had a licence to grow opium poppies and he didn't know anything about it. The pair had a look at the field where they were growing.
Of course if you were growing opium poppies on your land for the black market this is a very good reason for not calling the police.
By all accounts NB was a pillar of the community so growing opium poppies for the black market would seem out of character and yet they haven't been explained.
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Whats the video called?
The Tony Martin Documentary I think.
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Too much reliance on excessive scientific theorising which can easily be challenged and refuted, I'm afraid, and not enough on common sense. The casing positions and bullet trajectories being cases in point, open to various interpretations and highly unlikely to bear the results you wish for. The original 1985 investigation findings will still stand; that both parents were in bed and awakened by an intruder entering their room and Nevill wasn't downstairs at 3am in his favourite chair reading the Farmer's Guardian. I dread to think how much money you're wasting... that is if you are actually funding any fruitless exercise and not just playing call my bluff.
The physical evidence at soc is not open to interpretation.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780123822413/shooting-incident-reconstruction
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The opium poppies are a mystery. According to police surgeon Dr Craig shortly after JB was told about the deaths he was found wandering around the yard clutching a bunch of poppies. JB told Dr Craig the farm had a licence to grow opium poppies for the pharma industry and yet the first UK licence granted by the gov to grow opium poppies in the UK was late 90's/early noughties. And the licence was with the pharma company not the farmer.
Dr Craig asked Chief Sup Harris if the farm had a licence to grow opium poppies and he didn't know anything about it. The pair had a look at the field where they were growing.
Of course if you were growing opium poppies on your land for the black market this is a very good reason for not calling the police.
By all accounts NB was a pillar of the community so growing opium poppies for the black market would seem out of character and yet they haven't been explained.
No mystery at all! Many things are not always revealed with internet searches, as you well know.
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Where's the evidence of a letter from JB to BC re the above?
You either believe CAL or you don't... and you obviously don't even though you praised her book to high heaven at Waterstones!
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What mischief are you referring to? There's no evidence whatsoever he was involved in any criminality down under.
What about the two Cartiers in Skippy's hodensack? Bamber's "No Comments" say it all!
DCI Jones moved on to the Cartier watches brought back from Australia, asking whether they were stolen.
‘Stealing’s the wrong word,’ Jeremy replied.
‘Was there an incident in Australia involving some Cartier watches you want to tell me about?’
‘No comment.’
‘Were you involved in stealing some diamonds in Australia?’
‘Australia or New Zealand? I had some in New Zealand.’
‘Did you steal them?’
‘No comment.’
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It all sounds like wishful thinking on your part Steve.
You have no understanding of the tests to know whether or not they will be a waste of time.
How do you think high profile contentious cases are eventually undermined to the extent convictions are quashed if everything can simply be batted away?
You are wrong on the third point. It was DS Jones who initiated the burning of carpets and sought JB's approval.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1056.0;attach=2206
Oh dear. For your sake I do hope you like the sound of leather on willow Holly.
Like you I have little understanding of the scientific side, but I do understand how appeals work and I guarantee you are wasting your time. It's a fools errand and guaranteed the CCRC will bat your hard work away for 6.
Those cases you are referring to are actual miscarriages of justice, so no comparison there.
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No mystery at all! Many things are not always revealed with internet searches, as you well know.
It seems the HO has already confirmed:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/85941/response/218225/attach/html/3/CR20001%20Response.pdf.html
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You either believe CAL or you don't... and you obviously don't even though you praised her book to high heaven at Waterstones!
I will refer to the book for the source. I thought JB was off to India with Roly Pargeter in an attempt to 'find himself'! Sounds like he was planning to spread himself thin!
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What about the two Cartiers in Skippy's hodensack? Bamber's "No Comments" say it all!
DCI Jones moved on to the Cartier watches brought back from Australia, asking whether they were stolen.
‘Stealing’s the wrong word,’ Jeremy replied.
‘Was there an incident in Australia involving some Cartier watches you want to tell me about?’
‘No comment.’
‘Were you involved in stealing some diamonds in Australia?’
‘Australia or New Zealand? I had some in New Zealand.’
‘Did you steal them?’
‘No comment.’
Where's the above from? It's certainly not in the police interviews with DCI Jones that I've read.
All JB did was what most middle class young people did then and do now and that's travel between finishing ed and starting work. And there's no evidence he was involved in any sort of wrongdoing or even anti-social behaviour eg brawling, getting drunk, behaving inappropriately around women etc. If there was I'm sure the Oz police or some hack would have discovered it by now.
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Oh dear. For your sake I do hope you like the sound of leather on willow Holly.
Like you I have little understanding of the scientific side, but I do understand how appeals work and I guarantee you are wasting your time. It's a fools errand and guaranteed the CCRC will bat your hard work away for 6.
Those cases you are referring to are actual miscarriages of justice, so no comparison there.
I tell you what I do like the sound of Steve: my iron hitting tiny balls!
I haven't seen you post anything remotely scientific or technical to have any view on your understanding of the case in this regard.
What you do post appears to be in the main wrong as confirmed above re DS Jones and the carpets.
Of course when high profile contentious convictions are eventually quashed it's easy to say it was an obvious miscarriage of justice. In reality if it was that obvious the appellant would not have spent decades in jail and had his/her case batted away by CoA on previous occasions. Unfortunately the system is in many ways perverse and cases are poorly managed and under resourced.
But hey ho I'm here now batting for the team that will eventually win.
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Where's the above from? It's certainly not in the police interviews with DCI Jones that I've read.
All JB did was what most middle class young people did then and do now and that's travel between finishing ed and starting work. And there's no evidence he was involved in any sort of wrongdoing or even anti-social behaviour eg brawling, getting drunk, behaving inappropriately around women etc. If there was I'm sure the Oz police or some hack would have discovered it by now.
DCI Jones' police interviews with JB:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=294.msg5031#msg5031
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=295.msg5032#msg5032
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I tell you what I do like the sound of Steve: my iron hitting tiny balls!
I haven't seen you post anything remotely scientific or technical to have any view on your understanding of the case in this regard.
What you do post appears to be in the main wrong as confirmed above re DS Jones and the carpets.
Of course when high profile contentious convictions are eventually quashed it's easy to say it was an obvious miscarriage of justice. In reality if it was that obvious the appellant would not have spent decades in jail and had his/her case batted away by CoA on previous occasions. Unfortunately the system is in many ways perverse and cases are poorly managed and under resourced.
But hey ho I'm here now batting for the team that will eventually win.
Previous cases batted away by Coa that eventually went on to be rightfully overturned as will eventually happen with JB's case:
Stefan Kizsko
"We can find no grounds whatsoever to condemn the jury's verdict of murder as in any way safe or unsatisfactory. The appeal is dismissed". Lord Justice Bridge.
Stephen Downing
"The court felt that her evidence was not credible and secure enough to allow an appeal against the conviction".
Sally Clarke
"Despite recognition of the flaws in Meadow's statistical evidence, the convictions were upheld at appeal in October 2000."
Guildford Four
"Both the Guildford Four and the Maguire Seven unsuccessfully sought leave to appeal their convictions immediately".
"The Guildford Four tried to obtain from the Home Secretary a reference to the Court of Appeal under Section 17 of Criminal Appeal Act 1968 (later repeled) but were unsuccessful.
Birmingham 6
"In March 1976 their first application for leave to appeal was dismissed by the Court of Appeal, presided over by Lord Widgery CJ".
"In January 1988 after a six week hearing (at that time the longest criminal hearing ever held), the convictions were ruled to be safe and satisfactory. The Court of Appeal, presided over by the Lord Chief Justice Lord Lane dismissed the appeals".
"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again".
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Stephen Downing
"The court felt that her evidence was not credible and secure enough to allow an appeal against the conviction".
Stephen Downing confessed
https://www.scotsman.com/news/uk-news/man-admitted-bakewell-tart-murder-1-569524
“Detectives who reinvestigated a murder for which a man spent 27 years in prison before his conviction was quashed confirmed today that he remained the only suspect for the killing.
Police said they were unable to rule out Stephen Downing, 46, of Bakewell, Derbyshire, as the man who carried out the murder of typist Wendy Sewell in 1973.
And they also criticised campaigning journalist Don Hale, who fought tirelessly to prove Mr Downing's innocence.
The report claimed that some of the people he quoted in his book on the case do not recall speaking to him.
Mr Downing's case was hailed as one of the country's most significant miscarriages of justice following his release from prison on appeal in 2001 and a Court of Appeal ruling which overturned his conviction last January.
In a report on a new inquiry into the killing, made public this morning, Derbyshire Police Deputy Chief Constable Bob Wood said: "Wendy Sewell was a young woman in the prime of her life who was robbed of her future as a result of a vicious attack.
"We have carried out an extremely thorough reinvestigation and have been able to eliminate 22 individuals from the inquiry.
"Despite the lengthy investigation, we have not been able to eliminate Stephen Downing from the inquiry."
Mrs Sewell, who was 32, was bludgeoned to death
in the grounds of Bakewell Cemetery in September 1973 as she took a lunchtime stroll.
Police said today that they had asked to interview Mr Downing under caution as part of the six-month reinvestigation, but that he had refused.
Officers wanted to question him about three confessions he is alleged to have made since his release, including one recorded on audio tape.
"Throughout the re-investigation, Stephen Downing has maintained a good working relationship with the investigating officers," said the report.
"He provided his fingerprints for elimination purposes but refused to be interviewed following consultation with his legal representatives.
"Under English law, Mr Downing can only be compelled to be interviewed under caution if he was under arrest.
"Following the quashing of his conviction by the Court of Appeal, Mr Downing cannot be re-arrested, or indeed tried, for the murder of Wendy Sewell."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-167704/Downing-murder-suspect.html
Have long suspected Stephen Downing was or is monitored under MAPPA
Episode 8 here might be helpful https://www.wirelessstudios.co.uk/podcast/reporter/
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Stephen Downing
"The court felt that her evidence was not credible and secure enough to allow an appeal against the conviction".
‘The judge noted, however, that counsel on behalf of the defence:
"... made the comment in so many words, I allege no impropriety on the part of the police."
Downing’s murder conviction was overturned on a technicality of law. There is no evidence to suggest he is innocent.
He had a history similar to Barry George
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1401325/Women-accuse-Stephen-Downing-of-assaulting-and-stalking-them.html
‘During the course of the reinvestigation, detectives established that Mr Hale had ignored many of his own notes, instead distorting information in an apparent attempt to blame others for Mrs Sewell's murder.
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‘Sally killed Richard in 2010 after years of being controlled and humiliated by him. At the time of her conviction, ‘coercive control’ was not a crime in England and Wales, only becoming recognised in law as a form of domestic abuse in 2015. Coercive control is a way of understanding domestic violence which foregrounds the psychological abuse and can involve manipulation, degradation, gaslighting (using mind games to make the other person doubt their sanity) and generally monitoring and controlling the person’s day-to-day life such as their friends, activities and clothing. This often leads to the abused becoming isolated and dependent on the abuser. It was dramatised very well in Helen’s storyline in Radio 4’s The Archer’s back in 2016.
https://www.justiceforwomen.org.uk/sally-challen-appeal
Bamber, through some of his supporters and his CT, has demonstrated how he uses ‘coercive control’ to get people to do what he wants
Trudi Benjamin at the graveside is one example https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3472521/Mass-murder-Jeremy-Bamber-sends-supporter-read-bizarre-rant-grave-parents-killed-blaming-sister-murdered-mass-killing.html
Wonder if Bamber’s legal team have considered the implications of this case and that of Bamber’s?
Mark Newby appears to be aware of the case
Mark Newby Retweeted
Garden Court Crime
@GardenCtCrime
RT
@GardenCtCrime
: 'Case of Sally Challen' 9pm tonight BBC2. 'This film offers a forensic examination of how the legal system grapples with…
https://mobile.twitter.com/marknewbyqsj/status/1204061272398020608
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Episode 8 here might be helpful https://www.wirelessstudios.co.uk/podcast/reporter/
Isn’t that the voice of Mark Newby ?
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I tell you what I do like the sound of Steve: my iron hitting tiny balls!
I haven't seen you post anything remotely scientific or technical to have any view on your understanding of the case in this regard.
What you do post appears to be in the main wrong as confirmed above re DS Jones and the carpets.
Of course when high profile contentious convictions are eventually quashed it's easy to say it was an obvious miscarriage of justice. In reality if it was that obvious the appellant would not have spent decades in jail and had his/her case batted away by CoA on previous occasions. Unfortunately the system is in many ways perverse and cases are poorly managed and under resourced.
But hey ho I'm here now batting for the team that will eventually win.
I tell you what if you somehow manage to free him I will give you a free hit with a 9 iron. And they are big by the way so you can’t miss this time.
But joking aside this is serious business Holly, the surviving relatives will be at risk. if it wasn’t so serious I would wish you luck with your theory
And while we’re at it I haven’t seen you ever post anything scientific or insightful either. I was right about the carpet and other things but have now given up trying to convince you, if it isn’t framing Sheila you don’t want to know
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Previous cases batted away by Coa that eventually went on to be rightfully overturned as will eventually happen with JB's case:
Stefan Kizsko
"We can find no grounds whatsoever to condemn the jury's verdict of murder as in any way safe or unsatisfactory. The appeal is dismissed". Lord Justice Bridge.
Stephen Downing
"The court felt that her evidence was not credible and secure enough to allow an appeal against the conviction".
Sally Clarke
"Despite recognition of the flaws in Meadow's statistical evidence, the convictions were upheld at appeal in October 2000."
Guildford Four
"Both the Guildford Four and the Maguire Seven unsuccessfully sought leave to appeal their convictions immediately".
"The Guildford Four tried to obtain from the Home Secretary a reference to the Court of Appeal under Section 17 of Criminal Appeal Act 1968 (later repeled) but were unsuccessful.
Birmingham 6
"In March 1976 their first application for leave to appeal was dismissed by the Court of Appeal, presided over by Lord Widgery CJ".
"In January 1988 after a six week hearing (at that time the longest criminal hearing ever held), the convictions were ruled to be safe and satisfactory. The Court of Appeal, presided over by the Lord Chief Justice Lord Lane dismissed the appeals".
"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again".
Kiszko was always a questionable conviction by the way.
As for the Guildford 4 and Birmingham 6 - guilty as hell
I can understand folks who remain on the fence pending further information on Bamber but you stated recently there is “not one scintilla of hope” he is guilty. That’s just plain daft in the face of the facts
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Coincidence meaning no particular reason. Personally i think many (not all) women think hes charismatic or handsome and are more prone to believe him than men do.
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I tell you what if you somehow manage to free him I will give you a free hit with a 9 iron. And they are big by the way so you can’t miss this time.
But joking aside this is serious business Holly, the surviving relatives will be at risk. if it wasn’t so serious I would wish you luck with your theory
And while we’re at it I haven’t seen you ever post anything scientific or insightful either. I was right about the carpet and other things but have now given up trying to convince you, if it isn’t framing Sheila you don’t want to know
The surviving relatives would be at risk of what?
I would imagine they are perfectly capable of looking after themselves, although I don't doubt that they would hate to see Jeremy released.
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It's well documented that Bamber has a grudge against the Eatons & Boutflours. From whichever side you look at it, if you think he;s innocent then they fitted him up for murder. if you think he's guilty they still shored up the sentence by going all miss marple and finding the silencer.
If he was ever released there would be conditions that he can't go near WHF for those reasons
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It's well documented that Bamber has a grudge against the Eatons & Boutflours. From whichever side you look at it, if you think he;s innocent then they fitted him up for murder. if you think he's guilty they still shored up the sentence by going all miss marple and finding the silencer.
If he was ever released there would be conditions that he can't go near WHF for those reasons
No doubt they are dreading the possibility of him being released, particularly if they did do anything to fit him up! I bet they are also worried that he might try to claim money from them , since they ended up with what would have been his inheritance, had he not been convicted. All my opinion, of course------
I doubt he will ever be released, guilty or innocent, but if he were, there would have to be a court order keeping both parties well away from each other.
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Just as a matter of interest, does anyone know whether Colin still has contact with the other surviving relatives?
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Coincidence meaning no particular reason. Personally i think many (not all) women think hes charismatic or handsome and are more prone to believe him than men do.
I've heard this opinion put forward before, but I don't know whether there is any truth in it.
For the record, his looks/charisma don't appeal to me at all, but then, I'm getting old!
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No doubt they are dreading the possibility of him being released, particularly if they did do anything to fit him up! I bet they are also worried that he might try to claim money from them , since they ended up with what would have been his inheritance, had he not been convicted. All my opinion, of course------
I doubt he will ever be released, guilty or innocent, but if he were, there would have to be a court order keeping both parties well away from each other.
A few years ago he did try and claim money off them in the form of shares or dividends from the caravan park or something along those lines. He was slapped down and told his conviction barred him from anything. I bet he's sore alright.
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Coincidence meaning no particular reason. Personally i think many (not all) women think hes charismatic or handsome and are more prone to believe him than men do.
I think there is something in this, and that's not intended as sexist, perhaps some men might behave the same way if it was an attractive woman in the dock.
At Bamber’s trial, the jury were divided, and found the defendant guilty by a 10-2 majority. As sentence was passed, two female jurors wept.
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Isn’t that the voice of Mark Newby ?
Episode 8 here might be helpful https://www.wirelessstudios.co.uk/podcast/reporter/
If this was Mark Newby - it sounded like him to me - then I’d like to hear his thoughts on both the content of the podcast and the content of Stephen Downing’s book
‘Stephens case hasn’t been fully aired in court’
Mark Newby can be heard here
Mark Newby, Mike Naughton, Dennis Eady & Glyn Maddocks, Carolyn Hoyle, Carole McCartney and Josephine Hodgson giving evidence at the justice committee 13th Jan 2015
https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/21e7258c-2461-4a1f-af60-bbfb885de507
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A few years ago he did try and claim money off them in the form of shares or dividends from the caravan park or something along those lines. He was slapped down and told his conviction barred him from anything. I bet he's sore alright.
Yes, I heard that too. Of course, as a convicted person, he would not be entitled.
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’
If this was Mark Newby - it sounded like him to me - then I’d like to hear his thoughts on both the content of the podcast and the content of Stephen Downing’s book
‘Stephens case hasn’t been fully aired in court’
Mark Newby can be heard here
Especially given the fact he knows all about placing ‘a fictional narrative in the public domain’
Presuming this is Mark Newby who’s representing Bamber; what is it he’s claiming ‘hasn’t been fully aired in court’ exactly in the Downing case?
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TWISTED MIND White House Farm murderer Jeremy Bamber writes sick letter to parents he killed saying he wants to visit their graves
“The sickeningly self-pitying letter to his parents also praised them for their achievements in serving Britain during the war.
“I vow though that when I achieve my freedom I will do all I can to honour not only Sheila’s memory and will do all that I can to help organisations which help with people who suffer from mental health issues.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10909726/jeremy-bamber-white-house-farm-murder-letter-to-parents/
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’
Especially given the fact he knows all about placing ‘a fictional narrative in the public domain’
Presuming this is Mark Newby who’s representing Bamber; what is it he’s claiming ‘hasn’t been fully aired in court’ exactly in the Downing case?
And given the fact Downing is now claiming the police have allegedly taken, “the unprecedented action to withold all evidence from him and his supporters* for 95 years preventing any investigation to completely prove his innocence.”
* Would be interested to hear who his ‘supporters’ are
What hope does Mark Newby believe he has in the Bamber case? (Again, presuming that’s him in the podcast)
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I've heard this opinion put forward before, but I don't know whether there is any truth in it.
For the record, his looks/charisma don't appeal to me at all, but then, I'm getting old!
Oh, Bamber was a charmer alright! Rumpy-pumpie in the sky with a total stranger and poor Anji Greaves inconsolable when she learned he'd been convicted...
From "The Murders at White House Farm" by Carol Ann Lee...
Anji Greaves had waited for the verdict in a hotel not far from Chelmsford with two friends and a journalist. Her room was decorated with ‘Welcome Home, Jeremy!’ banners, and she wore her glitziest outfit, with a bag packed; the journalist intended to write Jeremy’s story when he was acquitted and then hustle the couple off on holiday. But when the television news delivered the outcome, Anji walked out in a daze, narrowly avoiding being run over. She told the journalist: ‘I feel so much loyalty for Jeremy but I do not know if I can bring myself to go on visiting now. It could be a life sentence for both of us.’
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Yes, I heard that too. Of course, as a convicted person, he would not be entitled.
He was a minority shareholder in the caravan park pre murders. Something like an 8% stake I think. I don't know what prisoners' rights are with regard to their pre sentencing assets lawfully gained?
In any event what will be interesting is when JB's conviction is overturned watch the lawyers go after his rightful inheritance. I think the Bamber net estate was just under 400k. Add to that some formula for loss of growth/income and you're talking serious dosh!
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He was a minority shareholder in the caravan park pre murders. Something like an 8% stake I think. I don't know what prisoners' rights are with regard to their pre sentencing assets lawfully gained?
In any event what will be interesting is when JB's conviction is overturned watch the lawyers go after his rightful inheritance. I think the Bamber net estate was just under 400k. Add to that some formula for loss of growth/income and you're talking serious dosh!
Why the ‘lawyers’ ?
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Why the ‘lawyers’ ?
Who else if not lawyers?
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Could posters please not stray from the thread theme. TY
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Full tweet
Garden Court Crime
@GardenCtCrime
Dec 9, 2019
'Case of Sally Challen' 9pm tonight BBC2. 'This film offers a forensic examination of how the legal system grapples with such a complex case'. Access to Sally, her family & lawyers including
@HWistrich
& our Clare Wade QC &
@LucieWibberley
#coercivecontrol
Wonder if Bamber’s legal team have considered the implications of this case and that of Bamber’s?
Mark Newby appears to be aware of the case
Mark Newby Retweeted
Garden Court Crime
@GardenCtCrime
RT
@GardenCtCrime
: 'Case of Sally Challen' 9pm tonight BBC2. 'This film offers a forensic examination of how the legal system grapples with…
https://mobile.twitter.com/marknewbyqsj/status/1204061272398020608
What are the implications of ‘coercive control’ in the Bamber case?
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No doubt they are dreading the possibility of him being released, particularly if they did do anything to fit him up! I bet they are also worried that he might try to claim money from them , since they ended up with what would have been his inheritance, had he not been convicted. All my opinion, of course------
I doubt he will ever be released, guilty or innocent, but if he were, there would have to be a court order keeping both parties well away from each other.
JB did actually try to extort money out of them!
He wanted 17 years back rent 🤣
He didn’t win, of course, but you have to laugh at how deluded he is
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Due to the current activity levels on the board we need to maintain the following rule set out on the homepage:
* Posters are asked to keep to thread topics where possible
Going forward I will be removing all posts that are off topic.
Thanks.
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Due to the current activity levels on the board we need to maintain the following rule set out on the homepage:
* Posters are asked to keep to thread topics where possible
Going forward I will be removing all posts that are off topic.
Thanks.
Why did you post this 15 times ?
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Yep, Collins was in Oz by the time of the 1986 trial, so not called as a Defence witness, but he did receive a letter from Bamber saying that when (not if) he was acquitted the farm would be sold to make way for a new life down under... which, of course, is what he had planned from the beginning.
Did Brett Collins pass this letter to police or was it intercepted by the prison?
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Episode 8 here might be helpful https://www.wirelessstudios.co.uk/podcast/reporter/
If this was Mark Newby - it sounded like him to me - then I’d like to hear his thoughts on both the content of the podcast and the content of Stephen Downing’s book
‘Stephens case hasn’t been fully aired in court’
Mark Newby can be heard here
Mark Newby, Mike Naughton, Dennis Eady & Glyn Maddocks, Carolyn Hoyle, Carole McCartney and Josephine Hodgson giving evidence at the justice committee 13th Jan 2015
https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/21e7258c-2461-4a1f-af60-bbfb885de507
It wasn’t Mark Newby it was Don Hale I think - they sound very similar
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Oh, Bamber was a charmer alright! Rumpy-pumpie in the sky with a total stranger and poor Anji Greaves inconsolable when she learned he'd been convicted...
From "The Murders at White House Farm" by Carol Ann Lee...
Anji Greaves had waited for the verdict in a hotel not far from Chelmsford with two friends and a journalist. Her room was decorated with ‘Welcome Home, Jeremy!’ banners, and she wore her glitziest outfit, with a bag packed; the journalist intended to write Jeremy’s story when he was acquitted and then hustle the couple off on holiday. But when the television news delivered the outcome, Anji walked out in a daze, narrowly avoiding being run over. She told the journalist: ‘I feel so much loyalty for Jeremy but I do not know if I can bring myself to go on visiting now. It could be a life sentence for both of us.’
“Star hotel all expenses paid” ? Who’s he referring to having paid his expenses; his parents?
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Did Brett Collins pass this letter to police or was it intercepted by the prison?
So when JB told Angi he wanted to get married he was lying to her — that’s a surprise !😳
His real intentions were to make a new life down under with Brett, so he was cheating on everyone and lying too. Who’d have guessed, eh?🧐
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Oh, Bamber was a charmer alright! Rumpy-pumpie in the sky with a total stranger and poor Anji Greaves inconsolable when she learned he'd been convicted...
From "The Murders at White House Farm" by Carol Ann Lee...
Anji Greaves had waited for the verdict in a hotel not far from Chelmsford with two friends and a journalist. Her room was decorated with ‘Welcome Home, Jeremy!’ banners, and she wore her glitziest outfit, with a bag packed; the journalist intended to write Jeremy’s story when he was acquitted and then hustle the couple off on holiday. But when the television news delivered the outcome, Anji walked out in a daze, narrowly avoiding being run over. She told the journalist: ‘I feel so much loyalty for Jeremy but I do not know if I can bring myself to go on visiting now. It could be a life sentence for both of us.’
Who did Bamber write the attached letter to ?
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I was neck deep in Nazi Megastructures Season 3 when this first aired.
Anyone know where it's still available? It's saying 'unavailable' on Amazon Prime.
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I was neck deep in Nazi Megastructures Season 3 when this first aired.
Anyone know where it's still available? It's saying 'unavailable' on Amazon Prime.
ITV hub?
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ITV hub?
Doesn't seem to be there.
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ITV hub?
No, it's not on there either because of a one or two month time limit.
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Doesn't seem to be there.
Yeh just looked,wonder why,but I suppose they cant keep everything on catch up.
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Yeh just looked,wonder why,but I suppose they cant keep everything on catch up.
Maybe they monetised it somewhere?
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Maybe they monetised it somewhere?
Looks like it,
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0828HHY5W
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https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.aeb89d28-6321-b73a-32fa-58e7f01ad6a4?autoplay=1
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Looks like it,
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0828HHY5W
Cheeky b'stards. Pay for Amazon Prime, now pay again for something that was free a few weeks ago.
But I'm going to pay it. B'stards.
Thanks pal.
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Britbox.
https://www.justw..ch.com/uk/tv-series/white-house-farm/season-1
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Is this something new coming up.
https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1432318/white-house-farm-murders-new-evidence-police-hitman-sheila-caffell-jeremy-bamber-spt
White House Farm Murders: Police suspected ‘hitman’ was hired to murder Sheila and family
White House Farm Murders: The New Evidence will air on Channel 5 on Thursday at 10.30pm.
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Is this something new coming up.
https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1432318/white-house-farm-murders-new-evidence-police-hitman-sheila-caffell-jeremy-bamber-spt
White House Farm Murders: Police suspected ‘hitman’ was hired to murder Sheila and family
White House Farm Murders: The New Evidence will air on Channel 5 on Thursday at 10.30pm.
Its just been on. Nothing new. Same old regurgitated nonsense. The last twenty minutes was like a Bamber press release. Seen it all before. The phone logs were all screwed up on the night.
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No need to ask... he was conned by deluded inhabitants of the blue madhouse once before. Never again.
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Mike on Blue did suggest a hit man team committed the massacre.
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No need to ask... he was conned by deluded inhabitants of the blue madhouse once before. Never again.
Who was - what do you mean?
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Who was - what do you mean?
John, of course... which was the reason he set up this forum (and the one before it that was sabotaged by a certain stalker on blue) as a sensible, rational alternative.
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John, of course... which was the reason he set up this forum (and the one before it that was sabotaged by a certain stalker on blue) as a sensible, rational alternative.
Oh i get you.