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Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: G-Unit on February 15, 2020, 12:58:37 PM
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I was wondering why Nevill Bamber would ring his son and came up with the possibility that he didn't. Maybe it was someone else who made that call, someone who wanted Jeremy Bamber to go to White House Farm?
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I was wondering why Nevill Bamber would ring his son and came up with the possibility that he didn't. Maybe it was someone else who made that call, someone who wanted Jeremy Bamber to go to White House Farm?
You were right the first time - he didn't and no one else could have. Who would said 'other person' be? How come they didn't wait for him to turn up? How could they be sure Bamber wouldn't have called the police and said person would be trapped in the FH. Also, they would risk Bamber realising it wasn't his dad.
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I was wondering why Nevill Bamber would ring his son and came up with the possibility that he didn't. Maybe it was someone else who made that call, someone who wanted Jeremy Bamber to go to White House Farm?
This has been suggested previously along with the possibility NB might have been forced to make the call.
I think NB made the call of his own volition. Reasons:
- no evidence shots had been fired at the time
- as you've pointed out firearms were not stored in accordance with the law
- re above NB was a magistrate
- according to independent witnesses eg CC and the relatives, the Bambers did not discuss SC's illness with anyone
- police cars did not have navigation systems and the road leading up to White House Farm is obscure. NB may have thought to get JB in loop to make sure they got there.
- According to a relative NB referred to the local police as Dad's Army so it seems he did not have much confidence in them.
- opium poppies were growing on the farm which appear to be somewhat of a mystery in terms of what they were being grown for and for whom
- a small piece of cannabis resin was found in a safe within the farmhouse
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This has been suggested previously along with the possibility NB might have been forced to make the call.
I think NB made the call of his own volition. Reasons:
- no evidence shots had been fired at the time
- as you've pointed out firearms were not stored in accordance with the law
- re above NB was a magistrate
- according to independent witnesses eg CC and the relatives, the Bambers did not discuss SC's illness with anyone
- police cars did not have navigation systems and the road leading up to White House Farm is obscure. NB may have thought to get JB in loop to make sure they got there.
- According to a relative NB referred to the local police as Dad's Army so it seems he did not have much confidence in them.
- opium poppies were growing on the farm which appear to be somewhat of a mystery in terms of what they were being grown for and for whom
- a small piece of cannabis resin was found in a safe within the farmhouse
None of those points support a phone call Holly.
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None of those points support a phone call Holly.
In the absence of a digital recording nothing does. I said I think he made the call and gave my reasons.
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As Caroline pointed out, it would have been some risk to take that Jeremy wouldn't realise it was his father.
If the call happened, Jeremy had no reason to lie about it's contents - that his father was asking him to come quickly because Sheila had "gone crazy and got the gun"
it eliminated any possibility of a 3rd party, and all the evidence at the scene proves Sheila wasn't the culprit.
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In the absence of a digital recording nothing does. I said I think he made the call and gave my reasons.
The other reason I think he made the call is that my interpretation of the physical evidence at soc: blood stains, ejected shell casings, distance of shots, trajectories of wounds and wound tracks, places NB on the landing stairs when he sustained his facial wounds and the perp stood inside the bedroom shooting out onto the landing. This scenario supports NB making a call to JB from the kitchen with SC running upstairs shooting June in bed, NB dropping the phone running upstairs and SC turning some 90 degrees from facing June in bed to facing NB on the landing.
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The other reason I think he made the call is that my interpretation of the physical evidence at soc: blood stains, ejected shell casings, distance of shots, trajectories of wounds and wound tracks, places NB on the landing stairs when he sustained his facial wounds and the perp stood inside the bedroom shooting out onto the landing. This scenario supports NB making a call to JB from the kitchen with SC running upstairs shooting June in bed, NB dropping the phone running upstairs and SC turning some 90 degrees from facing June in bed to facing NB on the landing.
It only supports someone trying to escape and if he did manage to get to the phone (which I doubt), an attempt to call the police. The phone off the hook simply supports a staged crime - had he just dropped the handset, the call would have still been connected to Bamber.
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It only supports someone trying to escape and if he did manage to get to the phone (which I doubt), an attempt to call the police. The phone off the hook simply supports a staged crime - had he just dropped the handset, the call would have still been connected to Bamber.
Someone trying to escape? Who and from what?
There's no evidence a call was made or wasn't made.
Yes if NB made the call and just dropped the handset he would still be connected to JB as per the evidence of the tel eng at trial which neither proved nor disproved a call.
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Someone trying to escape? Who and from what?
There's no evidence a call was made or wasn't made.
Yes if NB made the call and just dropped the handset he would still be connected to JB as per the evidence of the tel eng at trial which neither proved nor disproved a call.
Err Nevill trying to escape being shot by Bamber.
I know there is no evidence of a call - that is what I am saying - just the staged flourish of an off the hook handset.
Jeremy didn't say he heard the handset fall, he said it sounded like the call ended.
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Err Nevill trying to escape being shot by Bamber.
I know there is no evidence of a call - that is what I am saying - just the staged flourish of an off the hook handset.
Jeremy didn't say he heard the handset fall, he said it sounded like the call ended.
But we know for sure NB sustained 4 x' gsw's upstairs. We also know he sustained 4 gsw's downstairs and that any one of these immobilised him. So if JB burst into the bedroom are you saying NB fled the bedroom unscathed? Where do you think he was when he sustained his upstairs gsw's? When NB sustained his upstairs gsw's do you think any of the other victims had been shot?
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Err Nevill trying to escape being shot by Bamber.
I know there is no evidence of a call - that is what I am saying - just the staged flourish of an off the hook handset.
Jeremy didn't say he heard the handset fall, he said it sounded like the call ended.
yes...but....but.... how would anyone of us now for certain in the heat of the moment what Jeremy heard, he could have been mistaken....
yet another stretch of credulity that some choose to ignore. There never was a phone call, close scrutiny explains that
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yes...but....but.... how would anyone of us now for certain in the heat of the moment what Jeremy heard, he could have been mistaken....
yet another stretch of credulity that some choose to ignore. There never was a phone call, close scrutiny explains that
What exactly is a stretch of credulity?
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You were right the first time - he didn't and no one else could have. Who would said 'other person' be? How come they didn't wait for him to turn up? How could they be sure Bamber wouldn't have called the police and said person would be trapped in the FH. Also, they would risk Bamber realising it wasn't his dad.
Do you also reject the evidence that Nevill phoned the police at 03:26?
(https://i2.wp.com/darkideas.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Phone-log-Neville-Bamber.jpg?w=360&ssl=1)
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Hi G-unit, Sorry I know you're asking Caroline the question but It is worth noting - if it was Nevill who called the police at 03:26, he didn't do so by dialling 999, he did so by leafing through the yellow pages looking for the local police stations number. At a time when Sheila had "gone crazy and got the gun".
Why not just dial 999? Because if Jeremy did make 2 calls he couldn't risk speaking to the same operator, who would likely notice it was the same voice as made the other call and casts further doubt on Nevill making the call.
The 03:26 timing is an anachronism which his supporters have pounced on, and suggested that perhaps Sheila hadn't actually "gone crazy and got the gun" yet. If not then why call the police?
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What exactly is a stretch of credulity?
A stretch of the imagination
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A stretch of the imagination
What do you find incredulous about a phone call that can neither be proved nor disproved?
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Do you also reject the evidence that Nevill phoned the police at 03:26?
(https://i2.wp.com/darkideas.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Phone-log-Neville-Bamber.jpg?w=360&ssl=1)
Absolutely and completely.
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Because it can and has been dismantled and disproved in a courtroom, for many reasons that we go over every other day, it seems.
Sheila has been comprehensively eliminated from being the culprit, for a start. And Jeremy himself eliminated the possibility of 3rd party involvement.
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Hi G-unit, Sorry I know you're asking Caroline the question but It is worth noting - if it was Nevill who called the police at 03:26, he didn't do so by dialling 999, he did so by leafing through the yellow pages looking for the local police stations number. At a time when Sheila had "gone crazy and got the gun".
Why not just dial 999? Because if Jeremy did make 2 calls he couldn't risk speaking to the same operator, who would likely notice it was the same voice as made the other call and casts further doubt on Nevill making the call.
The 03:26 timing is an anachronism which his supporters have pounced on, and suggested that perhaps Sheila hadn't actually "gone crazy and got the gun" yet. If not then why call the police?
I don't believe "supporters" all sing from the same hymn sheet no more than those who believe he's guilty do.
I don't believe NB called the police but if he did as a local magistrate he might well have known the numbers to
local police stations and not had to thumb thru directories as you claim.
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Hi G-unit, Sorry I know you're asking Caroline the question but It is worth noting - if it was Nevill who called the police at 03:26, he didn't do so by dialling 999, he did so by leafing through the yellow pages looking for the local police stations number. At a time when Sheila had "gone crazy and got the gun".
Why not just dial 999? Because if Jeremy did make 2 calls he couldn't risk speaking to the same operator, who would likely notice it was the same voice as made the other call and casts further doubt on Nevill making the call.
The 03:26 timing is an anachronism which his supporters have pounced on, and suggested that perhaps Sheila hadn't actually "gone crazy and got the gun" yet. If not then why call the police?
As an older person I remember knowing phone numbers off by heart. As a J.P. perhaps Nevill knew the number of the station.
There were two calls to the police and two different call logs though, were there?
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Hi G-unit, Sorry I know you're asking Caroline the question but It is worth noting - if it was Nevill who called the police at 03:26, he didn't do so by dialling 999, he did so by leafing through the yellow pages looking for the local police stations number. At a time when Sheila had "gone crazy and got the gun".
Why not just dial 999? Because if Jeremy did make 2 calls he couldn't risk speaking to the same operator, who would likely notice it was the same voice as made the other call and casts further doubt on Nevill making the call.
The 03:26 timing is an anachronism which his supporters have pounced on, and suggested that perhaps Sheila hadn't actually "gone crazy and got the gun" yet. If not then why call the police?
Not only that, neither West or Bonnett supported the call from Nevill, the very thing that would have supported Sheila being the murderer. The log is badly written but nothing more but the notion that Nevill called the police and they said nothing is just silly.
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Absolutely and completely.
Sorry, but I'm new to this case. Would you mind telling me why you reject that document?
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As an older person I remember knowing phone numbers off by heart. As a J.P. perhaps Nevill knew the number of the station.
There were two calls to the police and two different call logs though, were there?
No, there was only Jeremy's call and he spoke to PC West, West relayed Jeremy's call to a civilian call handler (Malcolm Bonnett) who was responsible for detailing the log you posted above. His statement and his testimony state clearly that the call he received came from CD1990 (entered on the log) which is PC West's call sign.
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Sorry, but I'm new to this case. Would you mind telling me why you reject that document?
Hi, no worries - see above.
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Because it can and has been dismantled and disproved in a courtroom, for many reasons that we go over every other day, it seems.
Sheila has been comprehensively eliminated from being the culprit, for a start. And Jeremy himself eliminated the possibility of 3rd party involvement.
What has been dismantled and disproved in a courtroom?
10/12 jurors found guilty beyond reasonable doubt based on what they heard during proceedings. No one knows what weight jurors attributed to the various pieces of evidence and whether they may have heard some they totally rejected.
The trial was a sham imo and the appeals and CCRC apps since have been poorly managed and under resourced.
I believe high quality forensics using 21st century science and tech along with competent and experienced lawyers who are able to dedicate the required time to the case will overturn the conviction.
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No, there was only Jeremy's call and he spoke to PC West, West relayed Jeremy's call to a civilian call handler (Malcolm Bonnett) who was responsible for detailing the log you posted above. His statement and his testimony state clearly that the call he received came from CD1990 (entered on the log) which is PC West's call sign.
Agreed.
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I don't believe "supporters" all sing from the same hymn sheet no more than those who believe he's guilty do.
I don't believe NB called the police but if he did as a local magistrate he might well have known the numbers to
local police stations and not had to thumb thru directories as you claim.
I think it's very convenient for that argument, to drop in the fact that he's a local magistrate. when you examine the role of a local magistrate it still doesn't point to him knowing the number of a police station off by heart any more than the average Joe. I agree with you there was no call from NB
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What has been dismantled and disproved in a courtroom?
10/12 jurors found guilty beyond reasonable doubt based on what they heard during proceedings. No one knows what weight jurors attributed to the various pieces of evidence and whether they may have heard some they totally rejected.
The trial was a sham imo and the appeals and CCRC apps since have been poorly managed and under resourced.
I believe high quality forensics using 21st century science and tech along with competent and experienced lawyers who are able to dedicate the required time to the case will overturn the conviction.
The phone call was covered in some depth at the original trial, as one of the 3 key points put forward by the prosecution. The others being the blood/silencer and Ms Mugford's testimony. So we can rest assured that it was weighed and considered by the jury.
I can't agree with your description of her majesty versus Bamber as a "sham". I might agree that the silencer/blood evidence was questionable but there was nothing approaching shambolic about the rest of the trial.
As for your last sentence, competence and experienced lawyers won't touch him any more.
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The phone call was covered in some depth at the original trial, as one of the 3 key points put forward by the prosecution. The others being the blood/silencer and Ms Mugford's testimony. So we can rest assured that it was weighed and considered by the jury.
But we still can't be sure what weight, if any, jurors gave to those aspects.
Jurors questions related to the blood/silencer.
I can't agree with your description of her majesty versus Bamber as a "sham". I might agree that the silencer/blood evidence was questionable but there was nothing approaching shambolic about the rest of the trial.
So you don't think jurors should have been taken to WHF to see what the prosecution claimed in terms of who was shot where and how JB is supposed to have exited leaving the farmhouse apparently secured from within?
As for your last sentence, competence and experienced lawyers won't touch him any more.
What evidence do you have to support the above assertion.
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The only question put to the judge by the jury related to the blood/silencer perhaps suggesting this loomed large:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=273.msg4561#msg4561
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Jurors questions related to the blood/silencer.
Of course, that was the problematic evidence. One can safely presume they weighed the other 2 points and accepted them
So you don't think jurors should have been taken to WHF to see what the prosecution claimed in terms of who was shot where and how JB is supposed to have exited leaving the farmhouse apparently secured from within?
No, those things can be covered in the courtroom. Did the experienced Mr Rivlin raise the idea of an excursion to WHF ?
What evidence do you have to support the above assertion
The fact that his 3rd appeal attempt was batted away in under an hour and he can no longer attract competent representation
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But we still can't be sure what weight, if any, jurors gave to those aspects.
Jurors questions related to the blood/silencer.
So you don't think jurors should have been taken to WHF to see what the prosecution claimed in terms of who was shot where and how JB is supposed to have exited leaving the farmhouse apparently secured from within?
What evidence do you have to support the above assertion.
Obviously because that evidence was complicated, it doesn't mean that other aspects weren't important.
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I was wondering why Nevill Bamber would ring his son and came up with the possibility that he didn't. Maybe it was someone else who made that call, someone who wanted Jeremy Bamber to go to White House Farm?
We have already crossed that bridge more than once. No outsider would murder a family in such a manner and still be able to cover all his tracks. So at the end of the day only three possibilities exist and they are these...
1. Sheila did it
2. Jeremy did it.
3. Jeremy had someone do it.
In my opinion, number 1 can be ruled out for several reasons which leaves only 2 and 3. Either way, Bamber is guilty of murder regardless of whether he pulled the trigger or had some lowlife patsy do it for him.
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Of course, that was the problematic evidence. One can safely presume they weighed the other 2 points and accepted them
Not necessarily especially when JM's testimony came with a warning from the judge.
No, those things can be covered in the courtroom. Did the experienced Mr Rivlin raise the idea of an excursion to WHF ?
Was the window JB supposedly exited whilst at the same time securing it from within exhibited at trial? Ie removed? Was some sort of model presented at trial showing the defence and prosecution soc reconstruction? I don't know who/what determines whether or not jurors are taken to sites? They were taken to shooting range to hear rifle with and without silencer.
Was MrvRivlin experienced with mass shootings?
The fact that his 3rd appeal attempt was batted away in under an hour and he can no longer attract competent representation
Afaik there hasn't been a third appeal?
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No, there was only Jeremy's call and he spoke to PC West, West relayed Jeremy's call to a civilian call handler (Malcolm Bonnett) who was responsible for detailing the log you posted above. His statement and his testimony state clearly that the call he received came from CD1990 (entered on the log) which is PC West's call sign.
Why does it say 'daughter...has got hold of one of my guns'?
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We have already crossed that bridge more than once. No outsider would murder a family in such a manner and still be able to cover all his tracks. So at the end of the day only three possibilities exist and they are these...
1. Sheila did it
2. Jeremy did it.
3. Jeremy had someone do it.
In my opinion, number 1 can be ruled out for several reasons which leaves only 2 and 3. Either way, Bamber is guilty of murder regardless of whether he pulled the trigger or had some lowlife patsy do it for him.
By 'cover all his tracks' do you mean hoodwink Essex police? In my opinion they were quite capable of missing the tracks of a herd of wildebeest.
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Not necessarily especially when JM's testimony came with a warning from the judge.
That is my point the jury were warned about Ms Mugford's testimony and they had no questions on that point.
Was the window JB supposedly exited whilst at the same time securing it from within exhibited at trial? Ie removed? Was some sort of model presented at trial showing the defence and prosecution soc reconstruction? I don't know who/what determines whether or not jurors are taken to sites? They were taken to shooting range to hear rifle with and without silencer.
I'm not sure why you would be pressing for that, when it would only reinforce how easy it is to sneak in unnoticed in the dead of night without waking anybody.
There are other reasons why a defence/prosecution might object to an excursion to the scene, for example the impressions it could make on the more suggestible members of the jury. They get to see first hand how relatively remote WHF is by essex standards and how Jeremy might have arrived undetected and carried out his diabolical plan.
This is similar to what happened in the trial I mentioned yesterday, Noye's first trial in the 80's for stabbing a police officer in his garden. On that occasion it backfired on the defence, the jury saw how remote Noye's garden was and understood how he might be frightened.
Take a look into that one, it became notable for reasons you may be interested in.
Was MrvRivlin experienced with mass shootings?
probably only of ducks and pheasants on his estate
Afaik there hasn't been a third appeal?
attempt for a 3rd appeal in 2012.
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Holly makes excuses for Bamber but never provides any evidence to support his innocence. Hardly surprising though given none exists.
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Holly makes excuses for Bamber but never provides any evidence to support his innocence. Hardly surprising though given none exists.
The UK system is based on not guilty or guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
The case wouldn't even get to court today let alone be found guilty.
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That is my point the jury were warned about Ms Mugford's testimony and they had no questions on that point.
I'm not sure why you would be pressing for that, when it would only reinforce how easy it is to sneak in unnoticed in the dead of night without waking anybody.
There are other reasons why a defence/prosecution might object to an excursion to the scene, for example the impressions it could make on the more suggestible members of the jury. They get to see first hand how relatively remote WHF is by essex standards and how Jeremy might have arrived undetected and carried out his diabolical plan.
This is similar to what happened in the trial I mentioned yesterday, Noye's first trial in the 80's for stabbing a police officer in his garden. On that occasion it backfired on the defence, the jury saw how remote Noye's garden was and understood how he might be frightened.
Take a look into that one, it became notable for reasons you may be interested in.
probably only of ducks and pheasants on his estate
attempt for a 3rd appeal in 2012.
The fact jurors didn't question JM's testimony doesn't mean they swallowed it whole or at all. 2/12 didn't swallow it for sure.
At trial jurors were told by the judge:
how he got there and out again whether by the kitchen window or any other means, though of interest, cannot affect the outcome of the case"
The prosecution did not even have to identify the window let alone demonstrate it was possible to exit a window and secure it from within.
Then we come to all the physical evidence which was collected and recorded by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories of shots and wound tracks. All of this data needed going into a shooting reconstruction with jurors taken to WHF to see for themselves:
- did the perp burst into the main bedroom and open fire on June and NB
Or
- did the perp open fire on June in bed and was NB shot as he came up the stairs
In the case you mention of Kenneth Noye jurors were taken to soc and found Noye not guilty.
WHF to this day remains the only criminal case involving a mass shooting unwitnessed by others so the lawyers were inexperienced and completely out of their depths.
I believe the last CCRC application was comprehensively reviewed by CCRC over a lengthy period of time but I remain confident that JB will win a 3rd appeal with his conviction quashed.
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All the above is repetitive pie in the sky and your usual forlorn hope. Bamber will never be released, of that I'm certain.
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All the above is repetitive pie in the sky and your usual forlorn hope. Bamber will never be released, of that I'm certain.
Which aspects of the case do you think are so strong they are incapable of being undermined?
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@ Holly seeing as the thread is about the phone call is about the phone call,correct if I'm wrong but is your stance that it was made before he (Nevill) was shot.If this is so,what do use for evidence of it?
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Which aspects of the case do you think are so strong they are incapable of being undermined?
All of them! Sorry Holly, I've no intention of spending the rest of this morning or even the day reading and countering your incessant repetition about what should have taken place in court 34 years ago.
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The UK system is based on not guilty or guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
The case wouldn't even get to court today let alone be found guilty.
So the miscarriage is because it was tried 30 yrs ahead of its time? not because Bamber didn't do it.
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@ Holly seeing as the thread is about the phone call is about the phone call,correct if I'm wrong but is your stance that it was made before he (Nevill) was shot.If this is so,what do use for evidence of it?
Yes I believe NB made the call before he was shot based on the physical evidence at soc: blood stains and lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks. I believe if you look at all those pieces it places NB on the landing stairs facing the entrance to the bedrrom when he sustained the facial shots and the main staircase facing the bottom when he sustained the shots to his shoulder and elbow.
To date no expert evidence exists re shooting reconstruction.
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All of them! Sorry Holly, I've no intention of spending the rest of this morning or even the day reading and countering your incessant repetition about what should have taken place in court 34 years ago.
It's never too late though. A shooting reconstruction can still be carried out.
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It's never too late though. A shooting reconstruction can still be carried out.
What do you hope doing such will prove, though?
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What do you hope doing such will prove, though?
That NB sustained his facial shots whilst he was stood on the landing stairs with the perp stood just inside the main bedroom shooting out onto the landing.
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It's never too late though. A shooting reconstruction can still be carried out.
There are multiple options to the shooting reconstruction though, therefore surely you can’t accurately reconstruct? No surviving witnesses either to verify. The court widely accepted that you will never be able to know what order people were killed and exact order of shots. For example you don’t know if the boys were shot first or last, of if Bamber pumped one in their head then come back to empty more later after they were already dead. Only he knows how he murdered the children.
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All of them! Sorry Holly, I've no intention of spending the rest of this morning or even the day reading and countering your incessant repetition about what should have taken place in court 34 years ago.
Think you just want to listen to RLB on AM show talking about the LBGT community.
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There are multiple options to the shooting reconstruction though, therefore surely you can’t accurately reconstruct? No surviving witnesses either to verify. The court widely accepted that you will never be able to know what order people were killed and exact order of shots. For example you don’t know if the boys were shot first or last, of if Bamber pumped one in their head then come back to empty more later after they were already dead. Only he knows how he murdered the children.
I will start a new thread about a shooting reconstruction.
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Yes I believe NB made the call before he was shot based on the physical evidence at soc: blood stains and lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks. I believe if you look at all those pieces it places NB on the landing stairs facing the entrance to the bedrrom when he sustained the facial shots and the main staircase facing the bottom when he sustained the shots to his shoulder and elbow.
To date no expert evidence exists re shooting reconstruction.
So Sheila has supposedly gone beserk with the gun,meaning she'd started her killing spree and Nevill took himself down stairs to phone JB,rather than the police? you seriously believe this?
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That NB sustained his facial shots whilst he was stood on the landing stairs with the perp stood just inside the main bedroom shooting out onto the landing.
Which I imagine would require a degree of firearm proficiency, as, I believe, had all the shots fired.
That aside, I'm assuming Nevill to have already been aware that Sheila had the gun, but rather than trying to take it off her, called Jeremy -one hell of a chance for several reasons- then follows her up stairs where she's laying in wait. I find it difficult to believe, having sustained soft tissue wounds which would bleed freely, that he'd have managed to get downstairs without leaving a blood trail rather than just a smear on the wall, or possibly, had his balance been disturbed, tumbled down them.
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Which I imagine would require a degree of firearm proficiency, as, I believe, had all the shots fired.
That aside, I'm assuming Nevill to have already been aware that Sheila had the gun, but rather than trying to take it off her, called Jeremy -one hell of a chance for several reasons- then follows her up stairs where she's laying in wait. I find it difficult to believe, having sustained soft tissue wounds which would bleed freely, that he'd have managed to get downstairs without leaving a blood trail rather than just a smear on the wall, or possibly, had his balance been disturbed, tumbled down them.
It’s ridiculous to assume Sheila even done any of this. This was done by a skilled marksman; somebody who also overpowered nevill in kitchen and somebody who didn’t waste a shot. Forensically Sheila has absolutely nothing that suggested she was involved in a struggle, nor that she reloaded and shot 20+ bullets. She also had no experience of using this gun and it was apparently one of the most difficult and complex guns to operate. Sheila did not do this crime so by default JB did; despite the lack of forensics on him as it was incorrectly deemed a murder suicide for a month giving him plenty of time to clean up.
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I've started a new thread re shooting reconstruction and will transfer posts from here to there.
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Essex police weren't good at crime scenes in at least two mystery's.
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Essex police weren't good at crime scenes in at least two mystery's.
I imagine one of those you mention is the Diana Jones murder? As far as forensics go, the person they suspected of the crime was streets ahead of them and would have pre-empted what they would do by way of investigation. That person also left it several days before reporting her missing. Like Jeremy Bamber, they had time to sell their story and cover their tracks.
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I imagine one of those you mention is the Diana Jones murder? As far as forensics go, the person they suspected of the crime was streets ahead of them and would have pre-empted what they would do by way of investigation. That person also left it several days before reporting her missing. Like Jeremy Bamber, they had time to sell their story and cover their tracks.
Thats three then,Stuart Lubbock.
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Thats three then,Stuart Lubbock.
And the other?
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And the other?
I imagine one of those you mention is the Diana Jones murder? As far as forensics go, the person they suspected of the crime was streets ahead of them and would have pre-empted what they would do by way of investigation. That person also left it several days before reporting her missing. Like Jeremy Bamber, they had time to sell their story and cover their tracks.
White House farm?
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In my opinion Nevill could have made two phone calls; one to the police and one to his son. He mentioned no shooting, just an unstable woman with a gun. I have seen no evidence which makes that scenario impossible.
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White House farm?
Of course! Apologies. I thought you to have meant OTHER than.
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In my opinion Nevill could have made two phone calls; one to the police and one to his son. He mentioned no shooting, just an unstable woman with a gun. I have seen no evidence which makes that scenario impossible.
I can't think why, if it had been just that, he'd have needed to call Jeremy, given that he couldn't have been certain that Jeremy would even answer the phone immediately. How long might he have been prepared to hang on given that there was allegedly an unstable woman with a gun on the loose?
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I can't think why, if it had been just that, he'd have needed to call Jeremy, given that he couldn't have been certain that Jeremy would even answer the phone immediately. How long might he have been prepared to hang on given that there was allegedly an unstable woman with a gun on the loose?
999 was the obvious way,JB wanted to them believe Sheila was shooting away.
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I can't think why, if it had been just that, he'd have needed to call Jeremy, given that he couldn't have been certain that Jeremy would even answer the phone immediately. How long might he have been prepared to hang on given that there was allegedly an unstable woman with a gun on the loose?
Is there a voice recording of JB to the police?
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999 was the obvious way,JB wanted to them believe Sheila was shooting away.
I wonder how large a part NOT calling 999 played in the jury finding him guilty? Individually, there may be nothing in these anomalies to suggest guilt. Add them together and I believe it a struggle to maintain belief in his innocence.
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The UK system is based on not guilty or guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
The case wouldn't even get to court today let alone be found guilty.
Of course it would. Today though, snap decisions about murder suicide wouldn't have been made.
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I can't think why, if it had been just that, he'd have needed to call Jeremy, given that he couldn't have been certain that Jeremy would even answer the phone immediately. How long might he have been prepared to hang on given that there was allegedly an unstable woman with a gun on the loose?
If the calls were as described then it seems that Sheila had a gun, but hadn't used it. We don't know what Nevill thought was going to happen next because we don't know what had occured before the calls were made. Judging by what was reported he wasn't concerned for his own safety, but wanted help to deal with the situation. The police would be needed to commit Sheila and his son for support.
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Of course it would. Today though, snap decisions about murder suicide wouldn't have been made.
I certainly don't think they'd accept, as the oracle, the word of the one person who stood to gain the most from the deaths.
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The fact jurors didn't question JM's testimony doesn't mean they swallowed it whole or at all. 2/12 didn't swallow it for sure.
At trial jurors were told by the judge:
how he got there and out again whether by the kitchen window or any other means, though of interest, cannot affect the outcome of the case"
The prosecution did not even have to identify the window let alone demonstrate it was possible to exit a window and secure it from within.
Then we come to all the physical evidence which was collected and recorded by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories of shots and wound tracks. All of this data needed going into a shooting reconstruction with jurors taken to WHF to see for themselves:
- did the perp burst into the main bedroom and open fire on June and NB
Or
- did the perp open fire on June in bed and was NB shot as he came up the stairs
In the case you mention of Kenneth Noye jurors were taken to soc and found Noye not guilty.
WHF to this day remains the only criminal case involving a mass shooting unwitnessed by others so the lawyers were inexperienced and completely out of their depths.
I believe the last CCRC application was comprehensively reviewed by CCRC over a lengthy period of time but I remain confident that JB will win a 3rd appeal with his conviction quashed.
They didn't have to identify the window, by Bambers own admission, he could enter via a window.
I don't know how you can't see that a reconstruction doesn't identify the killer?
Kenneth Noye being found 'not guilty' is clearly a problem for your notion that the jury should visit the scene.
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Yes I believe NB made the call before he was shot based on the physical evidence at soc: blood stains and lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks. I believe if you look at all those pieces it places NB on the landing stairs facing the entrance to the bedrrom when he sustained the facial shots and the main staircase facing the bottom when he sustained the shots to his shoulder and elbow.
To date no expert evidence exists re shooting reconstruction.
I agree that he was on the stairs/landing but it doesn't put a phone in his hand and no trajectory is going to do that for you. I believe he was on the stairs because Bamber came back before Nevill went to bed, he waited until Nevill was out of the way to give him time to shoot the twins and June and shot Nevill as he came upstairs. I can no more prove this, than you can your theory of the phone call. Nevill on the stairs, DOES NOT identify the killer.
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It's never too late though. A shooting reconstruction can still be carried out.
Which wouldn't identify the ,killer.
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That NB sustained his facial shots whilst he was stood on the landing stairs with the perp stood just inside the main bedroom shooting out onto the landing.
And how does that prove a phone call?
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It’s ridiculous to assume Sheila even done any of this. This was done by a skilled marksman; somebody who also overpowered nevill in kitchen and somebody who didn’t waste a shot. Forensically Sheila has absolutely nothing that suggested she was involved in a struggle, nor that she reloaded and shot 20+ bullets. She also had no experience of using this gun and it was apparently one of the most difficult and complex guns to operate. Sheila did not do this crime so by default JB did; despite the lack of forensics on him as it was incorrectly deemed a murder suicide for a month giving him plenty of time to clean up.
I agree she didn't do it but it's not one of the most complicated guns to operate. However, to be able to use it, someone would have had to show you.
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If the calls were as described then it seems that Sheila had a gun, but hadn't used it. We don't know what Nevill thought was going to happen next because we don't know what had occured before the calls were made. Judging by what was reported he wasn't concerned for his own safety, but wanted help to deal with the situation. The police would be needed to commit Sheila and his son for support.
He had his wife to help him, there is no way he'd call Jeremy to help him. Jeremy and Sheila didn't get on.
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The fact jurors didn't question JM's testimony doesn't mean they swallowed it whole or at all. 2/12 didn't swallow it for sure.
Indeed 2 jurors burst into tears when their crush was found guilty. It's why the guilty prefer trial by jury to trial by judges. See the John Bindon trial too.
In the case you mention of Kenneth Noye jurors were taken to soc and found Noye not guilty.
precisely my point, the remote location made a deep impression on the jury. You need to consider this carefully.
WHF to this day remains the only criminal case involving a mass shooting unwitnessed by others so the lawyers were inexperienced and completely out of their depths.
It is a fanciful suggestion, that a respected advocate at the top of his game like Rivlin was out of his depths. Indeed he almost got Bamber off the hook! I very much doubt that anybody else could have done a better job. Not even Holly Goodhead.
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If the calls were as described then it seems that Sheila had a gun, but hadn't used it. We don't know what Nevill thought was going to happen next because we don't know what had occured before the calls were made. Judging by what was reported he wasn't concerned for his own safety, but wanted help to deal with the situation. The police would be needed to commit Sheila and his son for support.
The police aren't the first port of call when someone requires to be committed. Nevill, having been in that situation before, would have been fully aware. After making the 999 call, the service required would be ambulance. Their call centre would alert the police for 'just in case' backup. A 90 year old of my acquaintance, suffering with dementia, was attended by a doctor, an ambulance with 4 attendants and 2 policemen!!!
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The police aren't the first port of call when someone requires to be committed. Nevill, having been in that situation before, would have been fully aware. After making the 999 call, the service required would be ambulance. Their call centre would alert the police for 'just in case' backup. A 90 year old of my acquaintance, suffering with dementia, was attended by a doctor, an ambulance with 4 attendants and 2 policemen!!!
The log states that the call was from an 'exchange line' - this would mean that both Jeremy and Nevill decided to not to bother calling 999 and instead, opted for the non-emergency route. But even without all of that, the man who wrote the log testified that it was the result of a call from West, to pass on the details on Jeremy's call. There is no point in people reading the statements if they are going to pick and choose which one to believe - I don't get it??
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The log states that the call was from an 'exchange line' - this would mean that both Jeremy and Nevill decided to not to bother calling 999 and instead, opted for the non-emergency route. But even without all of that, the man who wrote the log testified that it was the result of a call from West, to pass on the details on Jeremy's call. There is no point in people reading the statements if they are going to pick and choose which one to believe - I don't get it??
Like lines? -all options left open till one fits?
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He had his wife to help him, there is no way he'd call Jeremy to help him. Jeremy and Sheila didn't get on.
Did Nevill and Jeremy get on?
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The police aren't the first port of call when someone requires to be committed. Nevill, having been in that situation before, would have been fully aware. After making the 999 call, the service required would be ambulance. Their call centre would alert the police for 'just in case' backup. A 90 year old of my acquaintance, suffering with dementia, was attended by a doctor, an ambulance with 4 attendants and 2 policemen!!!
The police are the first port of call when someone is waving a gun about. After disarming them committment would most likely follow.
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Did Nevill and Jeremy get on?
Word has it that they didn't
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Word has it that they didn't
Brett Collins let something slip,or maybe not.Caveat its a Red top report.
“We spent the day together but Jeremy told me he’d never really liked his father that much and he didn’t like his mother at all.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-bambers-best-pal-believed-21459285
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Brett Collins let something slip,or maybe not.Caveat its a Red top report.
“We spent the day together but Jeremy told me he’d never really liked his father that much and he didn’t like his mother at all.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-bambers-best-pal-believed-21459285
I got it from closer to home than Red Tops quoting Brett Collins
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Did Nevill and Jeremy get on?
Not according to the family.
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Not according to the family.
Nevertheless Jeremy worked for his father and spent time in the family home. They weren't estranged.
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Nevertheless Jeremy worked for his father and spent time in the family home. They weren't estranged.
Getting ANY inheritance depended on him doing a satisfactory job -according to the trust- of farming. His house went with the job.
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The suggestion that in a time of crisis, Nevill would cry for assistance from his lazy, pot smoking, playboy for a son is laughable. Robert Boutflour suspected Jeremy robbed the caravan park are we expected to swallow that he wouldn't have informed Nevill of his suspicions, that they wouldn't at least have discussed it.
It's utter nonsense that Nevill would leave Sheila running amok in the house to get on the phone to his idiot son, instead of calling the police or even Len Foakes. In fact anyone but Jeremy.
Furthermore we know he told Barbara Wilson that he believed Jeremy was capable of anything, "I must never turn my back on that young man"
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The suggestion that in a time of crisis, Nevill would cry for assistance from his lazy, pot smoking, playboy for a son is laughable. Robert Boutflour suspected Jeremy robbed the caravan park are we expected to swallow that he wouldn't have informed Nevill of his suspicions, that they wouldn't at least have discussed it.
It's utter nonsense that Nevill would leave Sheila running amok in the house to get on the phone to his idiot son, instead of calling the police or even Len Foakes. In fact anyone but Jeremy.
Furthermore we know he told Barbara Wilson that he believed Jeremy was capable of anything, "I must never turn my back on that young man"
Ha! That iconic statements crops up everywhere. My late neighbour, Nevill's best friend, claims Nevill said those words following a contretemps with Nevill which reduced him to tears. I will add that this lovely old man, in his early 90's cried at the memory of it.
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That's interesting. And did your late neighbour believe that Nevill might turn to Jeremy for help in the middle of the night? What was his opinion of the whole affair?
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That's interesting. And did your late neighbour believe that Nevill might turn to Jeremy for help in the middle of the night? What was his opinion of the whole affair?
He died last year, age 93. He always believed that Jeremy was guilty. He never had a very high opinion of him. Less high having witnessed his behaviour towards Nevill on that particular occasion. In fairness to Jeremy, though, which of us would be comfortable in being forced to do something we didn't want to do? Jeremy wasn't cut out to be a farmer, but it was what he'd have had to do until such time as his father died, in order to inherit. Sheila, by contrast, did nothing but eat into what he probably felt entitled to have, and had earned.
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He died last year, age 93. He always believed that Jeremy was guilty. He never had a very high opinion of him. Less high having witnessed his behaviour towards Nevill on that particular occasion. In fairness to Jeremy, though, which of us would be comfortable in being forced to do something we didn't want to do? Jeremy wasn't cut out to be a farmer, but it was what he'd have had to do until such time as his father died, in order to inherit. Sheila, by contrast, did nothing but eat into what he probably felt entitled to have, and had earned.
Jeremy wasn't forced into farming, he could have made a success at something else but chose to stay with the money.
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Jeremy wasn't forced into farming, he could have made a success at something else but chose to stay with the money.
He could have.............but it would have meant knuckling down to some sort of training. He had no qualifications other than charisma!!!! He went with the money. It was easier!!!
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I agree she didn't do it but it's not one of the most complicated guns to operate. However, to be able to use it, someone would have had to show you.
This disagrees, especially around the reloading.
http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/
One of the better blogs I’ve read from somebody well versed with guns. He describes its complexities and how it’s unrealistic for Sheila to have operated that gun to such an efficient level of accuracy on that night.
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This disagrees, especially around the reloading.
http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/
One of the better blogs I’ve read from somebody well versed with guns. He describes its complexities and how it’s unrealistic for Sheila to have operated that gun to such an efficient level of accuracy on that night.
It was fascinating to read. I've always been led to believe that anyone can pick up a gun and fire it. What I read rather comforts me. I'd always been sure I couldn't.................unless it had been prepped in advance.
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This disagrees, especially around the reloading.
http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/
One of the better blogs I’ve read from somebody well versed with guns. He describes its complexities and how it’s unrealistic for Sheila to have operated that gun to such an efficient level of accuracy on that night.
I agree that she would have to be shown how to use it and there is no evidence to support she was ever shown, ever used it or had any inclination to do so. However, the following video shows it's not difficult IF you know the steps. Previous to being interested in this case, I'd have had no clue how to load an fire the rifle but don't think I'd have an issue now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXurfFTI8Qc
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I agree that she would have to be shown how to use it and there is no evidence to support she was ever shown, ever used it or had any inclination to do so. However, the following video shows it's not difficult IF you know the steps. Previous to being interested in this case, I'd have had no clue how to load an fire the rifle but don't think I'd have an issue now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXurfFTI8Qc
That video is brilliant, thank you! Tbh that confirms to me 1million percent that it wouldn’t have been Sheila. Few things to notice that stand out from that clip :
1) the noise without a moderator! Previously pro Bamber said it wasn’t that noisy without a moderator and nobody would have woken up....but at 3am in a house there’s no way people aren’t waking up and running around when the first shot was fired..... unless a moderator is on.
2) the loading is probably the complex part he is talking about. There is no way Sheila is reloading that twice in a psychotic stage, infact in any state such was her inexperience. That’s far more likely to have been pre loaded, fully loaded, magazines carried by Jeremy via a belt.
3) the accuracy. That looks like you need a degree of skill to aim that let alone connect with 25 consecutive shots.
Actually makes me anxious watching that as you can only imagine the terror they must have felt. The boys would have been murdered by Jeremy first with one shot each before he went to main bedroom to do June and NB. If he hadn’t have done the children first then there’s absolutely no way they would have slept so peacefully through it such was their body positions when murdered.
Jeremy is an evil child killer !
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I agree that she would have to be shown how to use it and there is no evidence to support she was ever shown, ever used it or had any inclination to do so. However, the following video shows it's not difficult IF you know the steps. Previous to being interested in this case, I'd have had no clue how to load an fire the rifle but don't think I'd have an issue now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXurfFTI8Qc
Listen and you can understand why a suppressor was used in the farmhouse.
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Thank you for your help April.
Whatever the case, I'm sure we are all agreed, there are better ways of expressing dissatisfaction with farming life than sneaking into your parents house in the dead of night and murdering your entire family.
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Thank you for your help April.
Whatever the case, I'm sure we are all agreed, there are better ways of expressing dissatisfaction with farming life than sneaking into your parents house in the dead of night and murdering your entire family.
He's a child killer first and foremost.
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He's a child killer first and foremost.
Aye, and the lads on his wing will see it that way too. The very bottom rung of the ladder, murdering children for greed.
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That video is brilliant, thank you! Tbh that confirms to me 1million percent that it wouldn’t have been Sheila. Few things to notice that stand out from that clip :
1) the noise without a moderator! Previously pro Bamber said it wasn’t that noisy without a moderator and nobody would have woken up....but at 3am in a house there’s no way people aren’t waking up and running around when the first shot was fired..... unless a moderator is on.
2) the loading is probably the complex part he is talking about. There is no way Sheila is reloading that twice in a psychotic stage, infact in any state such was her inexperience. That’s far more likely to have been pre loaded, fully loaded, magazines carried by Jeremy via a belt.
3) the accuracy. That looks like you need a degree of skill to aim that let alone connect with 25 consecutive shots.
Actually makes me anxious watching that as you can only imagine the terror they must have felt. The boys would have been murdered by Jeremy first with one shot each before he went to main bedroom to do June and NB. If he hadn’t have done the children first then there’s absolutely no way they would have slept so peacefully through it such was their body positions when murdered.
Jeremy is an evil child killer !
Nothing I don't agree with there. 8((()*/
Something else about the story Bamber told of leaving the shells on the counter after bringing in a box from the office. There are 150 shells per box, 25 shots fired, which should have left 125 on the counter. However, there were 130 shells - 5 too many. This shows that the magazine must have already had 5 shells loaded and his story about being in a rush to shoot rabbits is bollocks. If that were the case, he wouldn't have needed to load any shells while given he was claiming to be in a hurry - the 5 shots should have been enough.
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Aye, and the lads on his wing will see it that way too. The very bottom rung of the ladder, murdering children for greed.
Which is why he will never confess.
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Nothing I don't agree with there. 8((()*/
Something else about the story Bamber told of leaving the shells on the counter after bringing in a box from the office. There are 150 shells per box, 25 shots fired, which should have left 125 on the counter. However, there were 130 shells - 5 too many. This shows that the magazine must have already had 5 shells loaded and his story about being in a rush to shoot rabbits is bollocks. If that were the case, he wouldn't have needed to load any shells while given he was claiming to be in a hurry - the 5 shots should have been enough.
50 cartridges per box 8((()*/ ...
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50 cartridges per box 8((()*/ ...
S
Ha, ha! Sorry - I did think I had that wrong but couldn't be arsed to check.
OK - there should have been 25 left but there were 30 @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
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Which is why he will never confess.
thanks for the link to the video.
Maybe only on his deathbed to spite his pond life supporters, whom he detests.
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S
Ha, ha! Sorry - I did think I had that wrong but couldn't be arsed to check.
OK - there should have been 25 left but there were 30 @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
And not 47 as in the ITV WHF drama. I counted them three times over... How sad is that? 8(8-))
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And not 47 as in the ITV WHF drama. I counted them three times over... How sad is that? 8(8-))
I squeaked when I saw my Nan's "Lyons Dundee Cake" tin in Sheila's flat. (I've still got it, full of buttons).
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The suggestion that in a time of crisis, Nevill would cry for assistance from his lazy, pot smoking, playboy for a son is laughable. Robert Boutflour suspected Jeremy robbed the caravan park are we expected to swallow that he wouldn't have informed Nevill of his suspicions, that they wouldn't at least have discussed it.
It's utter nonsense that Nevill would leave Sheila running amok in the house to get on the phone to his idiot son, instead of calling the police or even Len Foakes. In fact anyone but Jeremy.
Furthermore we know he told Barbara Wilson that he believed Jeremy was capable of anything, "I must never turn my back on that young man"
Colin Caffell saw the father and son as very close, sharing a similar sense of humour. Nevill had asked the Trustees to include Jeremy on the tenancy of WHF and began taking him to meetings of Northern Maldon Growers.
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That's interesting G-unit, where did you read that?
Robert Boutflour was so suspicious of Jeremy that when he saw Jeremy asking Sheila to try loading the gun just before the murders, his first thoughts were that he was trying to get her fingerprints all over the magazine. This was before he knew what would transpire
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That's interesting G-unit, where did you read that?
Robert Boutflour was so suspicious of Jeremy that when he saw Jeremy asking Sheila to try loading the gun just before the murders, his first thoughts were that he was trying to get her fingerprints all over the magazine. This was before he knew what would transpire
It's from Carol Ann Lee's book page 103 where a few people are quoted who had a slightly more positive opinion of Jeremy Bamber.
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It's from Carol Ann Lee's book page 103 where a few people are quoted who had a slightly more positive opinion of Jeremy Bamber.
I'm not familiar with her book, rather with the earlier works such as Wilkes excellent book. Perhaps Lee is skilfully trying to keep the killers identity open at that point, I don't know.
However, I would take any reference to their having a close or loving relationship with a dose of salt. His supporters pounce on anything and twist it to back up the ridiculous premise that Nevill would cry to Jeremy for help rather than simply disarm Sheila, or at a stretch call the Police.
If Jeremy was on the trustees of WHF and had been taken to meetings of NMG, it only tells me that Jeremy was his son and employee, not that they were close.
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It's from Carol Ann Lee's book page 103 where a few people are quoted who had a slightly more positive opinion of Jeremy Bamber.
This was approx a year before the murders when Bamber seemed to be knuckling down.
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On page 106 of Lee's book there's a reference to Nevill's firearms licence. A constable visited and said he was meticulous in the safekeeping of his weapons, keeping them in a padlocked cupboard. Was that normal or was he usually less meticulous?
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I squeaked when I saw my Nan's "Lyons Dundee Cake" tin in Sheila's flat. (I've still got it, full of buttons).
Darn! I blinked and nearly missed Freddie B. stuffing it into a bin bag before being carted off to some Maid Vale rubbish tip.
Put your Nan's on eBay, it's currently worth five to fifteen smackers...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LYONS-DUNDEE-CAKE (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LYONS-DUNDEE-CAKE-TIN/254513624933?_trkparms=aid%3D1110001%26algo%3DSPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20160323102634%26meid%3D9ef9af2878d74f8faf2265de06a2dc49%26pid%3D100623%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D114113386474%26itm%3D254513624933%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-60-s-lyons-dundee-cake-tin-London-W14-England-/231416894005?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-60-s-lyons-dundee-cake-tin-London-W14-England-/231416894005?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10)
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The phone call to Jeremy is one of the strangest things I have ever heard of.
Bamber having his answering machine switched off.
Nevill choosing to ring him at 3am. Then wait several minutes for Bamber to wake from sleeping 'like a log' decide to answer, then go downstairs.
After waiting a long time for the phone to be answered, Nevill then says 9 words in less than 5 seconds.
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Darn! I blinked and nearly missed Freddie B. stuffing it into a bin bag before being carted off to some Maid Vale rubbish tip.
Put your Nan's on eBay, it's currently worth five to fifteen smackers...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LYONS-DUNDEE-CAKE (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LYONS-DUNDEE-CAKE-TIN/254513624933?_trkparms=aid%3D1110001%26algo%3DSPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20160323102634%26meid%3D9ef9af2878d74f8faf2265de06a2dc49%26pid%3D100623%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D114113386474%26itm%3D254513624933%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-60-s-lyons-dundee-cake-tin-London-W14-England-/231416894005?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-60-s-lyons-dundee-cake-tin-London-W14-England-/231416894005?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10)
Mine's in quite good nick, compared to those - I think I'll keep it. I've only got that (and her wattle) to remember her by.
8(8-))
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People suggest Nevill's call was so short because he was interrupted. However Nevill's words do summarise the situation. The phone did not go dead mid sentance.
Bamber could elaborate on Nevill's 9 words to the police outside WHF - 'come over', 'Sheila', 'gone crazy' 'got the gun'.
Nevill and Bamber having a phone conversation would give suspiscious people more chance to pick holes in what was said. Sheila was also supposed to be going crazy.
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The phone call to Jeremy is one of the strangest things I have ever heard of.
Bamber having his answering machine switched off.
Nevill choosing to ring him at 3am. Then wait several minutes for Bamber to wake from sleeping 'like a log' decide to answer, then go downstairs.
After waiting a long time for the phone to be answered, Nevill then says 9 words in less than 5 seconds.
He needed to get his message across then go and try to calm Sheila.
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That's interesting G-unit, where did you read that?
Robert Boutflour was so suspicious of Jeremy that when he saw Jeremy asking Sheila to try loading the gun just before the murders, his first thoughts were that he was trying to get her fingerprints all over the magazine. This was before he knew what would transpire
Who else was party to this?
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I can't think why, if it had been just that, he'd have needed to call Jeremy, given that he couldn't have been certain that Jeremy would even answer the phone immediately. How long might he have been prepared to hang on given that there was allegedly an unstable woman with a gun on the loose?
NB was called by SC's friend prior to her last admittance to St Andrews psychiatric hospital to let him know SC was having a psychotic episode. NB's response was he could not get there until the following day. When NB arrived the following day he drove her straight to St Andrews.
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Who else was party to this?
June Bamber was witness to this. Sheila had fudged the attempt at loading the final bullet into the magazine.
According to expectation.
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They didn't have to identify the window, by Bambers own admission, he could enter via a window.
I don't know how you can't see that a reconstruction doesn't identify the killer?
Kenneth Noye being found 'not guilty' is clearly a problem for your notion that the jury should visit the scene.
JB has never said he could exit a window and then secure it from outside. Most people could probably enter by using various tools to lift a catch.
I've never said a reconstruction will identify the killer. What it will do is show the correct position of NB and perp when NB sustained his upstairs gsw's. To date no expert evidence has been made available. I believe a reconstruction will place NB on the landing stairs with the perp already in the bedroom which then throws a different light on the case.
Why is KN being found not guilty a problem for my notion that a jury should visit the soc? Many high profile cases involve jurors taken to soc and other sites to enable them to understand the defence and prosecution.
In this case jurors needed to visit WHF in order for the prosecution to demonstrate what it was asserting about the window. The fact the judge told jurors it didn't matter just shows the whole trial was a sham.
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June Bamber was witness to this. Sheila had fudged the attempt at loading the final bullet into the magazine.
According to expectation.
How do you know June was witness to it?
I thought Pamela Boutflour was also present but she did not recall the incident?
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People suggest Nevill's call was so short because he was interrupted. However Nevill's words do summarise the situation. The phone did not go dead mid sentance.
Bamber could elaborate on Nevill's 9 words to the police outside WHF - 'come over', 'Sheila', 'gone crazy' 'got the gun'.
Nevill and Bamber having a phone conversation would give suspiscious people more chance to pick holes in what was said. Sheila was also supposed to be going crazy.
No one has claimed NB invited JB over.
"Sheila's gone crazy she's got the gun"
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S
Ha, ha! Sorry - I did think I had that wrong but couldn't be arsed to check.
OK - there should have been 25 left but there were 30 @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
This is an assumption on your part that the perp used cartridges from those JB tipped out on the kitchen top earlier when in reality the perp may have used cartridges from another source eg bag of ammo in cupboard or any left hanging around elsewhere.
Some of the casings had marks on showing they had been loaded into the magazine on a previous occassion(s).
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I agree that he was on the stairs/landing but it doesn't put a phone in his hand and no trajectory is going to do that for you. I believe he was on the stairs because Bamber came back before Nevill went to bed, he waited until Nevill was out of the way to give him time to shoot the twins and June and shot Nevill as he came upstairs. I can no more prove this, than you can your theory of the phone call. Nevill on the stairs, DOES NOT identify the killer.
As it stands the prosecution has argued NB sustained his upstairs gsw's in the bedroom therefore how could he have made a tel call when a) the pathologist said his facial injuries were such he was incapable of purposeful speech and b) the injuries produced heavy blood loss internally and externally and the phone showed no visible signs of blood staining.
I believe a reconstruction will show NB was shot on landing/stairs and this puts a different complexion on the phone call ie NB was on phone to JB, dropped the phone and came up the stairs where he was shot in the face.
JB's car was heard leaving WHF circa 9.30pm. What time do you think he returned and how in terms of mode of transport?
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On page 106 of Lee's book there's a reference to Nevill's firearms licence. A constable visited and said he was meticulous in the safekeeping of his weapons, keeping them in a padlocked cupboard. Was that normal or was he usually less meticulous?
Where did the visit take place and who was the constable?
There's no evidence of any padlocked cupboard. Firearms were found all over the place: shotgun left against wall of downstairs office, hundreds of rounds of ammo in cupboard under stairs, NB's nephew, Anthony Pargeter, stored his firearms in the downstairs bathroom and 1 or 2 firearm(s) were found in an unused staircase. All were readily accessible to anyone in the farmhouse.
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Where did the visit take place and who was the constable?
There's no evidence of any padlocked cupboard. Firearms were found all over the place: shotgun left against wall of downstairs office, hundreds of rounds of ammo in cupboard under stairs, NB's nephew, Anthony Pargeter, stored his firearms in the downstairs bathroom and 1 or 2 firearm(s) were found in an unused staircase. All were readily accessible to anyone in the farmhouse.
I would imagine the first thought that went thru NB's mind was OMG if the police get involved how the hell do I explain all these firarms/ammo left lying around, accessible to anyone, including my mentally ill daughter!
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I'm not familiar with her book, rather with the earlier works such as Wilkes excellent book. Perhaps Lee is skilfully trying to keep the killers identity open at that point, I don't know.
However, I would take any reference to their having a close or loving relationship with a dose of salt. His supporters pounce on anything and twist it to back up the ridiculous premise that Nevill would cry to Jeremy for help rather than simply disarm Sheila, or at a stretch call the Police.
If Jeremy was on the trustees of WHF and had been taken to meetings of NMG, it only tells me that Jeremy was his son and employee, not that they were close.
By all accounts the difficult relationship seemed to between SC and June evidenced by SC's psychiatric reports.
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Where did the visit take place and who was the constable?
There's no evidence of any padlocked cupboard. Firearms were found all over the place: shotgun left against wall of downstairs office, hundreds of rounds of ammo in cupboard under stairs, NB's nephew, Anthony Pargeter, stored his firearms in the downstairs bathroom and 1 or 2 firearm(s) were found in an unused staircase. All were readily accessible to anyone in the farmhouse.
The book doesn't say, but it's quite possible it was an arranged visit to check that the security attangements were in place because that's a condition of a firearms licence. As you say, keeping the guns safe wasn't something Nevill paid attention to on a daily basis, there were guns everywhere. On 18th July Neville picked up a rifle and some ammunition from that same settle where Jeremy left a rifle on the day of the shootings, according to Robert Boutflower. Gun safety wasn't a priority in that house imo.
[Lee's book page 137]
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Listen and you can understand why a suppressor was used in the farmhouse.
What was the velocity of the cartridges used in the vid? The cartridges used at WHF are subsonic.
Have you heard the sound difference with and without sound moderator?
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Colin Caffell saw the father and son as very close, sharing a similar sense of humour. Nevill had asked the Trustees to include Jeremy on the tenancy of WHF and began taking him to meetings of Northern Maldon Growers.
This was some time before the murders, in months reseeding, they were seen to argue.
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This was some time before the murders, in months reseeding, they were seen to argue.
I would think that's quite common in family businesses where the younger person wants to contribute new ideas and the older one wants to stick with his tried and tested ways.
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This was some time before the murders, in months reseeding, they were seen to argue.
Who saw them arguing and what about?
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No one has claimed NB invited JB over.
"Sheila's gone crazy she's got the gun"
Nevill said 'please come over'. According to Jeremy.
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Believe the prosecution are saying Nevill called Jeremy after being shot upstairs. Did the defence agree with this?
Most scenarios from supporters have Nevill phoning before being shot.
Suggestions that Nevill was watching television, having a shower, or sleeping when Sheila saw the rifle and magazine next to it.
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Nevill said 'please come over'. According to Jeremy.
Not according to his initial testimony. L
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Believe the prosecution are saying Nevill called Jeremy after being shot upstairs. Did the defence agree with this?
Most scenarios from supporters have Nevill phoning before being shot.
Suggestions that Nevill was watching television, having a shower, or sleeping when Sheila saw the rifle and magazine next to it.
Ed Lawson QC for the defence asked Malcolm Fletcher if anyone had been shot outside the bedroom and he replied no. The defence did not challenge this in any way or even ask how he arrived at this conclusion.
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Not according to his initial testimony. L
Nevill just said 'Sheila's gone crazy and she's got the gun'.
That is even stranger.
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This from Wkipedia -
'The prosecution case included that there was no evidence that Bamber's father had telephoned him.
They argued that the father was too badly injured to have spoken to anyone; that there was no blood on the kitchen phone; and that he would have called the police, not Bamber.'
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Both prosecution and defence would agree Nevill would not call anyone after being shot 4 times. Twice in the face.
I assume the defence put forward the possibility that Nevill phoned before any shots had been fired.
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Nevill just said 'Sheila's gone crazy and she's got the gun'.
That is even stranger.
If SC was going "crazy" and had the gun what else would you expect him to say?
We know SC went "crazy" evidenced by her psychiatric history. We know guns were left hanging around the farmhouse.
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This from Wkipedia -
'The prosecution case included that there was no evidence that Bamber's father had telephoned him.
They argued that the father was too badly injured to have spoken to anyone; that there was no blood on the kitchen phone; and that he would have called the police, not Bamber.'
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Both prosecution and defence would agree Nevill would not call anyone after being shot 4 times. Twice in the face.
I assume the defence put forward the possibility that Nevill phoned before any shots had been fired.
I don't believe the defence argued the call was made before any shots were fired on the basis it seems to have accepted NB sustained all his upstairs gsw's in his bedroom.
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The COA confirms the prosecution went on the basis that Nevill would only call after being shot 4 times -
vii) The appellant's account of the telephone call from his father could be proved to be false for the following reasons:
a) His father was too badly injured to have spoken to anybody;
b) The telephone in the kitchen was not obviously blood stained;
c) As a matter of common sense, Nevill Bamber would have called the police before the appellant;
d) Had the appellant really received such a call, he would have immediately made a 999 call, alerted the farm workers who lived close to the farmhouse and then driven at speed to his parents home; and
e) Instead he had spoken to Julie Mugford before calling the police. When he subsequently contacted the Police, it was not by way of the emergency system.
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There is nothing about the defence suggesting Nevill could have called before shots were fired.
Probably because of what Nevill is supposed to have said. Together with the likelihood Nevill would have disarmed Sheila instead.
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You were right the first time - he didn't and no one else could have. Who would said 'other person' be? How come they didn't wait for him to turn up? How could they be sure Bamber wouldn't have called the police and said person would be trapped in the FH. Also, they would risk Bamber realising it wasn't his dad.
And Jeremy didn’t recognise his own father’s voice?
Stop trying to make ridiculous implications
And stop trying to imply it was someone else: it wasn’t
Jeremy received no phone call from the farm
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Guilters and supporters on both forums agree Nevill would not call Jeremy after being shot 4 times. No scenarios have this.
However the prosecution and defence at court are in agreement that Nevill would not call Jeremy prior to shots being fired.
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I don't believe the defence argued the call was made before any shots were fired on the basis it seems to have accepted NB sustained all his upstairs gsw's in his bedroom.
Supporters say Bamber picked up the phone at the same time Sheila started shooting June upstairs. Nevill heard the shots, abandoned the call and ran upstairs.
Upon arriving in the bedroom, Nevill got two close range face shots and two torso shots. He did not challenge Sheila and ran straight back downstairs.
The defence at court did not dream of anything so outlandish. They went along with the equally ridiculous notion that Nevill called Bamber after being shot 4 times.
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Guilters and supporters on both forums agree Nevill would not call Jeremy after being shot 4 times. No scenarios have this.
However the prosecution and defence are in agreement that Nevill would not call Jeremy prior to shots being fired.
Do you know why they came to that conclusion?
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Do you know why they came to that conclusion?
Supporters & the trial defence cancel each other out.
Both the prosecution and defence knew it was too ridiculous to suggest Nevill called Bamber prior to shots being fired. As he would have reclaimed the rifle instead. So it had to be the call was made after Nevill received 4 shots.
However supporters know it is equally ridiculous to believe Nevill phoned Bamber after being shot 4 times. So do not promote this.
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Do you know why they came to that conclusion?
Because there would be no need - rather than waste time calling Bamber and leaving Sheila going crazy with a gun, he'd have been more concerned about separating her from it.
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Nevill phoned Jeremy prior to shots being fired - No say the trial prosecution and defence.
Nevill phoned Jeremy after being shot 4 times - No say everyone else.
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So when did Nevill make his call?
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And Jeremy didn’t recognise his own father’s voice?
Stop trying to make ridiculous implications
And stop trying to imply it was someone else: it wasn’t
Jeremy received no phone call from the farm
But... but... there must have been a phone call because Jeremy said so...
https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/unknown-album (https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/unknown-album)
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But... but... there must have been a phone call because Jeremy said so...
https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/unknown-album (https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/unknown-album)
but... no phone call means our Jeremy is guilty and it's all too terrible to bear thinking about so we must keep that call alive at any stretch of credibility. Yes WW2 pilot Nevill couldn't face disarming Sheila himself and squealed for Jeremys help....sob...whimper...
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But... but... there must have been a phone call because Jeremy said so...
https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/unknown-album (https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/unknown-album)
Brilliant.
Engaged tone eh.... thought phone was off the hook 🙈
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But... but... there must have been a phone call because Jeremy said so...
https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/unknown-album (https://soundcloud.com/phil-garlic/unknown-album)
When Bamber went though what he did the previous evening, he spent much time detailing the programmes he was supposed to have watched but never mentioned having a bath @)(++(*
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So when the policeman wrote 'daughter' and 'my gun' he was mishearing what he was told?
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So when the policeman wrote 'daughter' and 'my gun' he was mishearing what he was told?
A policeman didn't write those words, a civilian call handler called Malcolm Bonnet wrote them. When he wrote down that the caller was CD 1990 (PC West) and that "message passed to CD by the son of Mr Bamber after the phone went dead" was he mishearing what he was told?
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It was simply that what Jeremy said became mixed up with what Jeremy alleged his father had said.
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It was simply that what Jeremy said became mixed up with what Jeremy alleged his father had said.
Is there any evidence upholding that point of view?
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Is there any evidence upholding that point of view?
Yes, the fact that the log states where the call came from - I answered this above.
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Yes, the fact that the log states where the call came from - I answered this above.
I don't know if it does, reading it.
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I don't know if it does, reading it.
Caller is listed on the left hand side under the time - 'CD 1990' - that is West's ID - If Nevill Bamber called, his name would be displayed in the caller space and surely you can see that at the bottom of the log it states ""message passed to CD by the son of Mr Bamber after the phone went dead" ?
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Caller is listed on the left hand side under the time - 'CD 1990' - that is West's ID - If Nevill Bamber called, his name would be displayed in the caller space and surely you can see that at the bottom of the log it states ""message passed to CD by the son of Mr Bamber after the phone went dead" ?
It doesn't say that CD 1990 had called does it?
That bottom bit could be an addition.
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It doesn't say that CD 1990 had called does it?
That bottom bit could be an addition.
Yes it does, that is the space for CALLER!
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Yes it does, that is the space for CALLER!
That isn't clear to me. Also Sheila's age is down as 26 but on 1990's log it says 27.
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That isn't clear to me. Also Sheila's age is down as 26 but on 1990's log it says 27.
When she was in fact 28!
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That isn't clear to me. Also Sheila's age is down as 26 but on 1990's log it says 27.
Message A from Jeremy, who seems not to know Sheila's married name, to West. Message B -Jeremy's message A- relayed from West to Bonnet. The discrepancy regarding her age, which at the most, was 12 months, at the least, 1 day -she had, in fact, had her birthday in July- can hardly be seen as being suspicious.
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Message A from Jeremy, who seems not to know Sheila's married name, to West. Message B -Jeremy's message A- relayed from West to Bonnet. The discrepancy regarding her age, which at the most, was 12 months, at the least, 1 day -she had, in fact, had her birthday in July- can hardly be seen as being suspicious.
So you're saying that Jeremy told West that Sheila was 27 and West changed it to 26 when he passed the message on?
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So you're saying that Jeremy told West that Sheila was 27 and West changed it to 26 when he passed the message on?
You sound determined to imply something sinister here. Even IF such had been the case, what on earth would have been the point of it? How likely is it that Jeremy knew exactly how old Sheila was -given that her married name didn't trip easily off his tongue and she'd recently had her 28th birthday? Might it be that he'd said 26/27?
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You sound determined to imply something sinister here. Even IF such had been the case, what on earth would have been the point of it? How likely is it that Jeremy knew exactly how old Sheila was -given that her married name didn't trip easily off his tongue and she'd recently had her 28th birthday? Might it be that he'd said 26/27?
I don't think G-Unit is determined to imply anything sinister anywhere. I think it's more a case she's new to the case and wants to be sure in her own mind about the various aspects, and case in general, before making decisions and coming to conclusions.
I was very impressed with G-Unit on the MM board here. Her case knowledge was excellent and she was always well behaved. I'm pleased she is joining in here and hope she stays.
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Re the above I would also add that our conclusions on the MM case are polar opposite and that may turn out to be the case here too but it matters not.
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I don't think G-Unit is determined to imply anything sinister anywhere. I think it's more a case she's new to the case and wants to be sure in her own mind about the various aspects, and case in general, before making decisions and coming to conclusions.
I was very impressed with G-Unit on the MM board here. Her case knowledge was excellent and she was always well behaved. I'm pleased she is joining in here and hope she stays.
Then as you don't believe in the call from Nevill either, why don't you take the time to explain.
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You sound determined to imply something sinister here. Even IF such had been the case, what on earth would have been the point of it? How likely is it that Jeremy knew exactly how old Sheila was -given that her married name didn't trip easily off his tongue and she'd recently had her 28th birthday? Might it be that he'd said 26/27?
I don't know about sinister, but if, as you seem to believe, 1990 gave the wrong information to MW then incompetence comes to mind. Writing one thing and saying another is incompetent.
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I don't think G-Unit is determined to imply anything sinister anywhere. I think it's more a case she's new to the case and wants to be sure in her own mind about the various aspects, and case in general, before making decisions and coming to conclusions.
I was very impressed with G-Unit on the MM board here. Her case knowledge was excellent and she was always well behaved. I'm pleased she is joining in here and hope she stays.
Thank you Holly. As yet I'm not convinced that there was just one phone call to the police because the two records don't match.
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Thank you Holly. As yet I'm not convinced that there was just one phone call to the police because the two records don't match.
Because they were written by two different people but ask yourself why in the very beginning off this case, both West and Bonnett would lie about the phone call because they would BOTH have to be complicit in this lie?
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Then as you don't believe in the call from Nevill either, why don't you take the time to explain.
I've already endorsed your post.
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Thank you Holly. As yet I'm not convinced that there was just one phone call to the police because the two records don't match.
Have you read the supporting docs eg trial testimony from West? If not I'll upload as this might assist your understanding.
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Here's the article by Bob Woffinden re the phones. By his own admission the farm only had one line. So if someone wanted to prevent occupants using upstairs phones all someone needed to do was take a downstairs phone off the hook thus disabling all other phones from dialling out.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1387438/I-wrong-Jeremy-Bamber-says-crime-writer.html
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Here's the article by Bob Woffinden re the phones. By his own admission the farm only had one line. So if someone wanted to prevent occupants using upstairs phones all someone needed to do was take a downstairs phone off the hook thus disabling all other phones from dialling out.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1387438/I-wrong-Jeremy-Bamber-says-crime-writer.html
Which goes to show that Jeremy Bamber didn't know that.
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But we know for sure NB sustained 4 x' gsw's upstairs. We also know he sustained 4 gsw's downstairs and that any one of these immobilised him. So if JB burst into the bedroom are you saying NB fled the bedroom unscathed? Where do you think he was when he sustained his upstairs gsw's? When NB sustained his upstairs gsw's do you think any of the other victims had been shot?
Well, Jeremy certainly wouldn’t have “burst” into the bedroom, waking everyone up would he?
He crept in, quietly...
Even he wouldn’t be so thick as to have made a noise, hence the silencer
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Someone trying to escape? Who and from what?
There's no evidence a call was made or wasn't made.
Yes if NB made the call and just dropped the handset he would still be connected to JB as per the evidence of the tel eng at trial which neither proved nor disproved a call.
But Jeremy said Nevill called him...are you saying he lied?
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But Jeremy said Nevill called him...are you saying he lied?
As I said there's no evidence the call under question was made or wasn't made so I've moved along and think a shooting reconstruction will show it was a distinct possibility.
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What do you find incredulous about a phone call that can neither be proved nor disproved?
No reading glasses, for one
Secondly, anyone who’s terrified dials 999 for police and ambulance
Thirdly, Nevill was putting up a huge fight against Jeremy, so he’d hardly leave him wandering around with the rifle, about to kill his family, while he browsed through a telephone directory (without his glasses) to phone the local police (20 miles away) or his strange son who was powerless and had no key to get in
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I don't believe "supporters" all sing from the same hymn sheet no more than those who believe he's guilty do.
I don't believe NB called the police but if he did as a local magistrate he might well have known the numbers to
local police stations and not had to thumb thru directories as you claim.
Having been shot four times I’d have phoned for an ambulance, urgently, as well as the police
I wouldn’t call the “local” Bobby 20 miles away...maybe you would?
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No reading glasses, for one
Who had no reading glasses?
Secondly, anyone who’s terrified dials 999 for police and ambulance
Do they? Maybe NB had reasons not to call the police let alone dial 999. How do you NB was "terrified"?
Thirdly, Nevill was putting up a huge fight against Jeremy, so he’d hardly leave him wandering around with the rifle, about to kill his family, while he browsed through a telephone directory (without his glasses) to phone the local police (20 miles away) or his strange son who was powerless and had no key to get in
There's no evidence NB fought anyone. I'm sorry I don't understand your other points?
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What has been dismantled and disproved in a courtroom?
10/12 jurors found guilty beyond reasonable doubt based on what they heard during proceedings. No one knows what weight jurors attributed to the various pieces of evidence and whether they may have heard some they totally rejected.
The trial was a sham imo and the appeals and CCRC apps since have been poorly managed and under resourced.
I believe high quality forensics using 21st century science and tech along with competent and experienced lawyers who are able to dedicate the required time to the case will overturn the conviction.
10 jurors decided Jeremy Bamber was guilty
Just two were unsure
That’s why we have majority verdicts: they’ll often be a couple of unintelligent jurors...
Fact is: he was found guilty
The appeal court threw the case out in under an hour
And the evidence against him is overwhelming
IF it ever came to court again he’d probably have even more years added to his sentence...
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10 jurors decided Jeremy Bamber was guilty
Just two were unsure
That’s why we have majority verdicts: they’ll often be a couple of unintelligent jurors...
Fact is: he was found guilty
The appeal court threw the case out in under an hour
And the evidence against him is overwhelming
IF it ever came to court again he’d probably have even more years added to his sentence...
Miscarriages of justice do happen and often those that are high profile are protracted and go back and forth to the appeal court before the conviction is finally quashed.
He can't have more years added to his sentence since he's serving a whole life terrify.
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Yes I believe NB made the call before he was shot based on the physical evidence at soc: blood stains and lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks. I believe if you look at all those pieces it places NB on the landing stairs facing the entrance to the bedrrom when he sustained the facial shots and the main staircase facing the bottom when he sustained the shots to his shoulder and elbow.
To date no expert evidence exists re shooting reconstruction.
Good grief, are you seriously suggesting Nevill phoned the police, or Jeremy (as you’re so eager to believe) with blood pouring/pumping from his face and he he didn’t leave a trace of blood on the phone?
Surely even you, as deluded as you appear, must realise that’s impossible
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Good grief, are you seriously suggesting Nevill phoned the police, or Jeremy (as you’re so eager to believe) with blood pouring/pumping from his face and he he didn’t leave a trace of blood on the phone?
Surely even you, as deluded as you appear, must realise that’s impossible
Can I ask you to refrain from making personal comments please eg "as deluded as you appear". The UKJF is a debating forum where posters are entitled to express their views so long as they do not break the forum rules.
I am suggesting NB phone JB from the kitchen prior to any shots being fired. SC went upstairs and opened fire on June. Upon hearing shots NB dropped the phone and ran upstairs where he sustained the facial shots on the landing.
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The suggestion that in a time of crisis, Nevill would cry for assistance from his lazy, pot smoking, playboy for a son is laughable. Robert Boutflour suspected Jeremy robbed the caravan park are we expected to swallow that he wouldn't have informed Nevill of his suspicions, that they wouldn't at least have discussed it.
It's utter nonsense that Nevill would leave Sheila running amok in the house to get on the phone to his idiot son, instead of calling the police or even Len Foakes. In fact anyone but Jeremy.
Furthermore we know he told Barbara Wilson that he believed Jeremy was capable of anything, "I must never turn my back on that young man"
Couldn’t agree more
As if Nevill could have, would have, phoned his lazy, useless son who he didn’t trust and who lived three miles away — while he was bleeding profusely with his tongue ripped & larynx paralysed — instead of calling the caretaker, the Boutflours, or the farm workers who lived two minutes away and had a key too — he called the lazy, pot-smoking thief of a son he didn’t trust; who didn’t have a key and was useless in every way
It’s utterly ludicrous
To be honest, this is just insane...everyone knows Jeremy murdered them all, even his little strange group of maiden aunts who want to mother him, despite him now being 60 and supposedly prefers men as lovers
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Couldn’t agree more
As if Nevill could have, would have, phoned his lazy, useless son who he didn’t trust and who lived three miles away — while he was bleeding profusely with his tongue ripped & larynx paralysed — instead of calling the caretaker, the Boutflours, or the farm workers who lived two minutes away and had a key too — he called the lazy, pot-smoking thief of a son he didn’t trust; who didn’t have a key and was useless in every way
It’s utterly ludicrous
To be honest, this is just insane...everyone knows Jeremy murdered them all, even his little strange group of maiden aunts who want to mother him, despite him now being 60 and supposedly prefers men as lovers
I agree NB could not have made the call after he sustained the facial wounds but I believe a reconstruction will show NB made the call before he sustained his facial wounds and when he was positioned on the landing stairs and perp inside bedroom.
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Can I ask you to refrain from making personal comments please eg "as deluded as you appear". The UKJF is a debating forum where posters are entitled to express their views so long as they do not break the forum rules.
I am suggesting NB phone JB from the kitchen prior to any shots being fired. SC went upstairs and opened fire on June. Upon hearing shots NB dropped the phone and ran upstairs where he sustained the facial shots on the landing.
I can see nothing which disproves your opinion. There's no proof that Nevill was injured before the telephone call(s). Shots from above would be an acceptable explanation of the telephone being left off the hook.
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He could have.............but it would have meant knuckling down to some sort of training. He had no qualifications other than charisma!!!! He went with the money. It was easier!!!
Charisma????
Agree with everything else, but...charisma?
He wasn’t even liked
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That video is brilliant, thank you! Tbh that confirms to me 1million percent that it wouldn’t have been Sheila. Few things to notice that stand out from that clip :
1) the noise without a moderator! Previously pro Bamber said it wasn’t that noisy without a moderator and nobody would have woken up....but at 3am in a house there’s no way people aren’t waking up and running around when the first shot was fired..... unless a moderator is on.
2) the loading is probably the complex part he is talking about. There is no way Sheila is reloading that twice in a psychotic stage, infact in any state such was her inexperience. That’s far more likely to have been pre loaded, fully loaded, magazines carried by Jeremy via a belt.
3) the accuracy. That looks like you need a degree of skill to aim that let alone connect with 25 consecutive shots.
Actually makes me anxious watching that as you can only imagine the terror they must have felt. The boys would have been murdered by Jeremy first with one shot each before he went to main bedroom to do June and NB. If he hadn’t have done the children first then there’s absolutely no way they would have slept so peacefully through it such was their body positions when murdered.
Jeremy is an evil child killer !
Yep, he pre-loaded just hours before...
He pre-planned it and just waited for the time when the whole family were sleeping over
He’s an evil cold-bloodied psychopath and the Grim Reaper will get him in prison...sooner rather than later
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Couldn’t agree more
As if Nevill could have, would have, phoned his lazy, useless son who he didn’t trust and who lived three miles away — while he was bleeding profusely with his tongue ripped & larynx paralysed — instead of calling the caretaker, the Boutflours, or the farm workers who lived two minutes away and had a key too — he called the lazy, pot-smoking thief of a son he didn’t trust; who didn’t have a key and was useless in every way
It’s utterly ludicrous
To be honest, this is just insane...everyone knows Jeremy murdered them all, even his little strange group of maiden aunts who want to mother him, despite him now being 60 and supposedly prefers men as lovers
Absolutely right, it was sheer stupidity from Bamber to think he could fool everyone over the telephone call.
It was so stupid that I briefly considered that the phone call could have even been a last minute addition to his scheme, in an attempt to explain the 2 things that went wrong for him that night - Nevills fight downstairs and having to shoot Sheila twice.
But in the end, no. It was too important for him that he arrive with the police, so he could play the helpful and concerned next of kin during the siege and sway them to accept his version of events. Such as "look what's that moving in the window", "my sisters a nutter with knowledge of guns" and nonsense like that.
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Absolutely right, it was sheer stupidity from Bamber to think he could fool everyone over the telephone call.
It was so stupid that I briefly considered that the phone call could have even been a last minute addition to his scheme, in an attempt to explain the 2 things that went wrong for him that night - Nevills fight downstairs and having to shoot Sheila twice.
But in the end, no. It was too important for him that he arrive with the police, so he could play the helpful and concerned next of kin during the siege and sway them to accept his version of events. Such as "look what's that moving in the window", "my sisters a nutter with knowledge of guns" and nonsense like that.
It was also his alibi to separate himself from the scene while making sure the police had the impression that Nevill was alive - therefore, he couldn't have been involved.
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If SC was going "crazy" and had the gun what else would you expect him to say?
We know SC went "crazy" evidenced by her psychiatric history. We know guns were left hanging around the farmhouse.
You don’t know anything of the kind
You weren’t there
You’re making yourself look stupid by claiming Sheila “saw the gun” — the gun Jeremy had so “conveniently” left on a bench (according to his lies)
Had Sheila saw the gun before they all retired to bed, that means she couldn’t have suddenly had a psychotic fit at 3:00am..but had planned it. And how convenient that night Jeremy “just happened ” to leave a fully loaded gun lying around, despite his young nephews being in the house...
Of course, we all know he didn’t really leave it lying around...he hid it for later
Sheila was tranquillised, tired, uncoordinated, and never had the desire, strength, or knowledge to slay her entire family, and vile Jeremy used her poor condition to pin the blame on her.
And had she gone berserk, as wicked Jeremy claims, why would she have killed her parents? Why not just the twins and herself if she wanted to end their lives and hers?
Sheila was frail, unsteady, weak, weary, tired, and despite her problems she was sweet, loving and adored her sons. She adored her dad too.
Had she gone berserk, Nevill, being 6”4”, fit, healthy & powerful could have disarmed that long rifle as she swayed manically by simply overpowering her with one quick arm-lock. Long rifles are easy to to grab rather than shotguns...which Jeremy tried to buy just weeks before
He killed his entire family in cold blood, including two beautiful little six-year-old boys (his nephews) and you’re trying to help him get leave for appeal and get free.
Trust me, if that monster did ever get set free (which he won’t) you wouldn’t hear from him ever again.
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I can see nothing which disproves your opinion. There's no proof that Nevill was injured before the telephone call(s). Shots from above would be an acceptable explanation of the telephone being left off the hook.
I don't believe anything exists that disproves it ie that NB could have made the call prior to being shot. I've uploaded all the material on the shooting reconstruction thread and would be interested in your views. Unless you're offay with the intricate parts of the anatomy it will take a while to work through as you need to consider all of this along with multiple other factors particularly the trajectory of shots eg angle bullets entered NB's body and the wound tracks. Key for me is that the pathologist, Dr Vanezis, put the trajectory of the facial shots at 10 - 20 degrees below the horizontal. NB was 6'4", JB 6'0" and SC 5'7.5" you will see from the layout diagram of WHF that a couple of stairs were situated on the landing just before the entrance to the bedroom. I believe NB was stood on one of the stairs placing him at a lower level than the perp hence the 10 - 20 degree trajectory below the horizontal. The distance of the shots was estimated at "within inches". None of his blood was found in the bedroom. 2 casings were found just inside the bedroom door which fits with how they would eject if shooter was stood just inside door and the flight of casings was impeded by the wall.
NB then sustained two further gsw's to his rear. The shot to his shoulder the pathologist said was fired from above. The graze shot to his elbow and chest graze were also downwards. I believe after NB sustained the facial wounds he turned to retreat downstairs and sustained the shoulder/elbow shot on the main staircase facing towards the hall with the perp firing from behind (these shots were to the rear of the body). Again supported by all the physical evidence: trajectories, wound tracks, 2 casings were found on landing which accounts for these gunshot wounds. No blood stains were found leading out the bedroom. 2 tiny blood stains were found on the landing which were inconclusive. The stairs carpet was blood stained but not tested. A light distribution of blood was found across the kitchen floor.
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It was also his alibi to separate himself from the scene while making sure the police had the impression that Nevill was alive - therefore, he couldn't have been involved.
Thanks, I forgot to type that was paramount. And then he failed to learn to differentiate between the tones that would be heard depending on how the receiver had been left.
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No reading glasses, for one
Secondly, anyone who’s terrified dials 999 for police and ambulance
Thirdly, Nevill was putting up a huge fight against Jeremy, so he’d hardly leave him wandering around with the rifle, about to kill his family, while he browsed through a telephone directory (without his glasses) to phone the local police (20 miles away) or his strange son who was powerless and had no key to get in
How can they do a shooting reconstruction when they’re not certain who Jeremy Bamber shot and killed first, and 34 years have passed?
It isn’t like anyone can come forward is it?
All you’re trying to do is carry out Jeremy Bamber’s instructions, which are “keep me in the news”
Well, except for WhiteHouseFarm being shown on TV, Jeremy Bamber had almost been forgotten, and in a couple of weeks he’ll once again be soggy wet fish & chip paper....
Even when he was convicted for murdering his family and the Chamber if Hirrirs were asked if they’d be putting him in there, they replied “too easily forgotten”
And they were correct
No-one’s given him a thought for decades...except strange old maids
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How can they do a shooting reconstruction when they’re not certain who Jeremy Bamber shot and killed first, and 34 years have passed?
It isn’t like anyone can come forward is it?
All you’re trying to do is carry out Jeremy Bamber’s instructions, which are “keep me in the news”
Well, except for WhiteHouseFarm being shown on TV, Jeremy Bamber had almost been forgotten, and in a couple of weeks he’ll once again be soggy wet fish & chip paper....
Even when he was convicted for murdering his family and the Chamber if Hirrirs were asked if they’d be putting him in there, they replied “too easily forgotten”
And they were correct
No-one’s given him a thought for decades...except strange old maids
A shooting reconstruction doesn't require any witnesses. It's based on the physical evidence collected, documented and photographed from soc: blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks.
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Charisma????
Agree with everything else, but...charisma?
He wasn’t even liked
It seems that, generally, he wasn't liked...................however, those who have been treated to it, unless they've had cause to see beneath it, have definitely fallen for his charisma.
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Quite right, Ispy. At first you try and see it from Holly's point of view, as if just maybe she has spotted something the rest of us haven't.
No, It cannot possibly ever amount to anything when scrutinised by actual judges. For all the good it is worth we might as well all submit our own interpretations using lego.
It's amusing in a way as it serves to show how utterly finished his campaign is.
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Who had no reading glasses?
Do they? Maybe NB had reasons not to call the police let alone dial 999. How do you NB was "terrified"?
There's no evidence NB fought anyone. I'm sorry I don't understand your other points?
Nevill was 61 and wire reading glasses to read....
Are you seriously suggesting that if Sheila was going berserk with a gun and she’d already shot him in the face four times, then went upstairs to shoot his wife, daughter & grandchildren he’d try and keep it “quiet”? He needed help (established by Jeremy, so he says) and he needed urgent medical treatment and back-up
Do you honestly think his main concern was keeping it hush hush when his tongue had been ripped in two; his larynx ripped apart?
Stop embarrassing yourself
Oh, and your crush, Jeremy said Nevill sounded terrified....so who’s lying, eh?
Suggest you read the PM reports to see the fight Nevill put up...I’m sure you have
Why are you siding with a monster? You must be so terribly desperate for companionship, even if it that companionship means a boring letter every so often from a psychopath who’s locked in a cage
As an aside, have you noticed how Jeremy never once asks how his weird Fanny club bunch are? It’s all HIM, HIM, HIM.
He’s as interested in you as he is his last burp
It’s sad you can’t see that
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It seems that, generally, he wasn't liked...................however, those who have been treated to it, unless they've had cause to see beneath it, have definitely fallen for his charisma.
Hello April, I was thinking about your late neighbour, Nevill's best friend.
Any chance of an uncle Albert style anecdote on Nevill's bravery during the war? Facing the enemy in his little mosquito at 10,000 feet.
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Good grief, are you seriously suggesting Nevill phoned the police, or Jeremy (as you’re so eager to believe) with blood pouring/pumping from his face and he he didn’t leave a trace of blood on the phone?
Surely even you, as deluded as you appear, must realise that’s impossible
Very rarely
And if they do, they do not go back & forth to the appeal court
The evidence the convicted had is enough for the conviction to be quashed at the first hearing: such as Colin Stagg
Jeremy Bamber has tried relentlessly to get leaves for appeal, and except for one which was batted out in under an hour and his sentence increased, he’s failed every time
He’s guilty. End of.
You, dear, need to move on and forget it...he will never be released becasue he’s guilty as sin
And I suspect you know he is too
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Can I ask you to refrain from making personal comments please eg "as deluded as you appear". The UKJF is a debating forum where posters are entitled to express their views so long as they do not break the forum rules.
I am suggesting NB phone JB from the kitchen prior to any shots being fired. SC went upstairs and opened fire on June. Upon hearing shots NB dropped the phone and ran upstairs where he sustained the facial shots on the landing.
So you’re saying Nevill happened to be downstairs in the kitchen at approximately 2am when Jeremy climbed through the window, armless?
Really??
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Hello April, I was thinking about your late neighbour, Nevill's best friend.
Any chance of an uncle Albert style anecdote on Nevill's bravery during the war? Facing the enemy in his little mosquito at 10,000 feet.
I'd love to s_t, but sadly, my conversations with him didn't cover that aspect of Nevill's life. I did, however, learn only yesterday, that a friend's late husband used to shoot regularly with him and Jeremy was present at every one he attended, (which rather gives the lie to that he hated blood-sports). He commented to my friend, well before the murders, about how Jeremy would only ever do enough work to say he'd been there and would skive at the first opportunity. Naturally, that many seem to believe him to have been a regular little s--t, doesn't make him a murderer.
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I can see nothing which disproves your opinion. There's no proof that Nevill was injured before the telephone call(s). Shots from above would be an acceptable explanation of the telephone being left off the hook.
In which case there’s have been copious amounts of blood and body tissue on the phone, receiver and worktop...
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I agree NB could not have made the call after he sustained the facial wounds but I believe a reconstruction will show NB made the call before he sustained his facial wounds and when he was positioned on the landing stairs and perp inside bedroom.
So what you’re implying now is that Nevill — tall, fit, strong, trying to protect his family — and who did indeed put up a tremendous fight — cowardly legged it downstairs when Jeremy walked in with the rifle, leaving his family in deadly grave danger upstairs — and phoned Jeremy ?
Please, stop embarrassing yourself
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A shooting reconstruction doesn't require any witnesses. It's based on the physical evidence collected, documented and photographed from soc: blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks.
There were 5 people killed in this CS and no one knows who was shot first etc. It would tell you nothing about the shooters identity. It wouldn't prove that Nevill had made a call or that he was downstairs prior. I think the IA board and it's amateur detectives has influenced you far too much.
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I agree NB could not have made the call after he sustained the facial wounds but I believe a reconstruction will show NB made the call before he sustained his facial wounds and when he was positioned on the landing stairs and perp inside bedroom.
How does that prove he made a phone call?
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A shooting reconstruction doesn't require any witnesses. It's based on the physical evidence collected, documented and photographed from soc: blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks.
They already have that, in case you’ve forgotten
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How does that prove he made a phone call?
As I've said numerous times it doesn't. What it does show is that physiologically it was possible.
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They already have that, in case you’ve forgotten
No. To date a shooting reconstruction hasn't been carried out.
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Can I ask you to refrain from making personal comments please eg "as deluded as you appear". The UKJF is a debating forum where posters are entitled to express their views so long as they do not break the forum rules.
I am suggesting NB phone JB from the kitchen prior to any shots being fired. SC went upstairs and opened fire on June. Upon hearing shots NB dropped the phone and ran upstairs where he sustained the facial shots on the landing.
Apologies
I’d hate to break rules...
Just as well Jeremy Bamber himself can’t post on here isn’t it?
He burgled and stole money from his father’s caravan site
He grew cannabis or marijuana on his father’s farm
He burgled a jewellery shop in New Zealand
And that’s just a small selection of the disgraceful crimes we know about...EXCEPT...he then plotted and planned and then carried out the murders of his dad, mum, sister and two six-year-old nephews...
I suppose that would mean a ban?
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As I've said numerous times it doesn't. What it does show is that physiologically it was possible.
This is such a weak argument that it just wouldn't pass muster Holly.
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As I've said numerous times it doesn't. What it does show is that physiologically it was possible.
Do you understand what physiologically means?
It’s where the inner organs react to stimulation e.g. drugs, adrenaline, thoughts etc
Please, stop embarrassing yourself...
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In which case there’s have been copious amounts of blood and body tissue on the phone, receiver and worktop...
Why, if he wasn't injured at that point?
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There were 5 people killed in this CS and no one knows who was shot first etc. It would tell you nothing about the shooters identity. It wouldn't prove that Nevill had made a call or that he was downstairs prior. I think the IA board and it's amateur detectives has influenced you far too much.
Two of the IA amateur detectives are American. Shooting reconstructions in US are routine due to the number of shooting incidents based on wide ownership of firearms. I believe one of the amateur detectives was a former officer in the military and current police officer. The other amateur detective is I believe a professional crime writer.
In terms of WHF some aspects of the case will never be known for sure but imo those aspects are largely irrelevant. What the physical evidence at WHF soc can and will determine is where NB was when he sustained his upstairs gsw's and that's the most important aspect of a shooting reconstruction.
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Two of the IA amateur detectives are American. Shooting reconstructions in US are routine due to the number of shooting incidents based on wide ownership of firearms. I believe one of the amateur detectives was a former officer in the military and current police officer. The other amateur detective is I believe a professional crime writer.
In terms of WHF some aspects of the case will never be known for sure but imo those aspects are largely irrelevant. What the physical evidence at WHF soc can and will determine is where NB was when he sustained his upstairs gsw's and that's the most important aspect of a shooting reconstruction.
You mean 'Charlie'? Yes, I saw his reconstruction of how Sheila supposedly shot herself, he lay on the floor with a rifle (no silencer) under his chin. I don't think it took much thought to reconstruct that.
CAL is a crime writer and you have dismissed quite a lot of what she had to say.
Where Nevill was makes no odds. The defence had the opportunity to argue that Nevill could have received a call prior to being shot, they chose not to.
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Thank you Holly. As yet I'm not convinced that there was just one phone call to the police because the two records don't match.
I'm not convinced either--------------!
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I'm not convinced either--------------!
Made your mind up about Tabac yet? 8(>((
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Made your mind up about Tabac yet? 8(>((
Have nothing new to say !!!
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Have nothing new to say !!!
Just kidding!! 8(0(*
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Because they were written by two different people but ask yourself why in the very beginning off this case, both West and Bonnett would lie about the phone call because they would BOTH have to be complicit in this lie?
So what you’re suggesting is, besides both Nevill & Jeremy phong the local PS 20 miles away after looking through the thick telephone directory instead of calling 999....
Neither of them knew Sheila’s true age, either?
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Here's the article by Bob Woffinden re the phones. By his own admission the farm only had one line. So if someone wanted to prevent occupants using upstairs phones all someone needed to do was take a downstairs phone off the hook thus disabling all other phones from dialling out.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1387438/I-wrong-Jeremy-Bamber-says-crime-writer.html
But when Jeremy Bamber planned to get in through the window he couldn’t chance the possibility that he’d be heard and Nevill would’ve immediately dialled 999 from his bedroom...
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How can they do a shooting reconstruction when they’re not certain who Jeremy Bamber shot and killed first, and 34 years have passed?
It isn’t like anyone can come forward is it?
All you’re trying to do is carry out Jeremy Bamber’s instructions, which are “keep me in the news”
Well, except for WhiteHouseFarm being shown on TV, Jeremy Bamber had almost been forgotten, and in a couple of weeks he’ll once again be soggy wet fish & chip paper....
Even when he was convicted for murdering his family and the Chamber if Hirrirs were asked if they’d be putting him in there, they replied “too easily forgotten”
And they were correct
No-one’s given him a thought for decades...except strange old maids
[/
Bet he got a nice Valentines card from somebody 😬
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You mean 'Charlie'? Yes, I saw his reconstruction of how Sheila supposedly shot herself, he lay on the floor with a rifle (no silencer) under his chin. I don't think it took much thought to reconstruct that.
CAL is a crime writer and you have dismissed quite a lot of what she had to say.
Where Nevill was makes no odds. The defence had the opportunity to argue that Nevill could have received a call prior to being shot, they chose not to.
Not even an Anschutz 525, not even the correct long-barrelled version of an Anschutz 525, not even accurate positioning of the rifle he used, not even a fitted Parker-Hale moderator, and not even the merest sign of a schizophrenic episode or the drowsiness caused by administration of Haloperidol. So much for American armchair-detective crime scene reconstructions!
https://www.dropbox.com/home/WHF?preview=gun_yoga.mp4 (https://www.dropbox.com/home/WHF?preview=gun_yoga.mp4)
Mike T's big toe demo has more credibility...
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Not even an Anschutz 525, not even the correct long-barrelled version of an Anschutz 525, not even accurate positioning of the rifle he used, not even a fitted Parker-Hale moderator, and not even the merest sign of a schizophrenic episode or the drowsiness caused by administration of Haloperidol. So much for American armchair-detective crime scene reconstructions!
https://www.dropbox.com/home/WHF?preview=gun_yoga.mp4 (https://www.dropbox.com/home/WHF?preview=gun_yoga.mp4)
Mike T's big toe demo has more credibility...
That's without taking into consideration that the AACD was hell-bent on proving it woz Sheila wot dun it, NOT as Sheila was alleged to have been, hell-bent on taking her own life and in an emotional state commensurate with it..............which is apart from her hand/eye coordination problems probably exacerbated by Haloperidol.
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Apologies
I’d hate to break rules...
Just as well Jeremy Bamber himself can’t post on here isn’t it?
He burgled and stole money from his father’s caravan site
He grew cannabis or marijuana on his father’s farm
He burgled a jewellery shop in New Zealand
And that’s just a small selection of the disgraceful crimes we know about...EXCEPT...he then plotted and planned and then carried out the murders of his dad, mum, sister and two six-year-old nephews...
I suppose that would mean a ban?
You can say what you wish about those who don't post here so long as it doesn't break forum rules.
In terms of those who post here please refrain from making any comments whatsoever of a personal nature.
And please try to remain on thread topic. The above is completely off-topic.
If you wish to continue posting here I suggest you take note of the above. Thanks.
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So what you’re suggesting is, besides both Nevill & Jeremy phong the local PS 20 miles away after looking through the thick telephone directory instead of calling 999....
Neither of them knew Sheila’s true age, either?
There is no evidence as far as I know that the Bamber men had to look through a telephone directory to find the telephone number of the police.
Not to be sexist, but women are more likely to keep track of birthdays and ages in my experience.
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There is no evidence as far as I know that the Bamber men had to look through a telephone directory to find the telephone number of the police.
Not to be sexist, but women are more likely to keep track of birthdays and ages in my experience.
Oh yes there is, Jeremy Bamber's interview transcript 8th. Sept. 1985...
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Not even an Anschutz 525, not even the correct long-barrelled version of an Anschutz 525, not even accurate positioning of the rifle he used, not even a fitted Parker-Hale moderator, and not even the merest sign of a schizophrenic episode or the drowsiness caused by administration of Haloperidol. So much for American armchair-detective crime scene reconstructions!
https://www.dropbox.com/home/WHF?preview=gun_yoga.mp4 (https://www.dropbox.com/home/WHF?preview=gun_yoga.mp4)
Mike T's big toe demo has more credibility...
I was flabbergasted when I saw the so called reconstruction on IA - gave up posting there long ago - just a lot of people playing forensic detective and being totally convinced that their findings proved various aspects of the case.
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Oh yes there is, Jeremy Bamber's interview transcript 8th. Sept. 1985...
Thank you Myster.
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Not even an Anschutz 525, not even the correct long-barrelled version of an Anschutz 525, not even accurate positioning of the rifle he used, not even a fitted Parker-Hale moderator, and not even the merest sign of a schizophrenic episode or the drowsiness caused by administration of Haloperidol. So much for American armchair-detective crime scene reconstructions!
https://www.dropbox.com/home/WHF?preview=gun_yoga.mp4 (https://www.dropbox.com/home/WHF?preview=gun_yoga.mp4)
Mike T's big toe demo has more credibility...
I think CW was just trying to illustrate approx how he thought SC shot herself. At the end of the day he is merely a poster on an internet forum not an expert witness providing testimony at trial. The experiments the FSS undertook using various women of different heights are no more or less scientific than CW's experiment given no measurements of SC's arm span were used and yet this played a part at trial!
Americans have a very different view of this case based on their wide ownership of firearms.
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I was flabbergasted when I saw the so called reconstruction on IA - gave up posting there long ago - just a lot of people playing forensic detective and being totally convinced that their findings proved various aspects of the case.
IA is US domained and I think Americans in general have a very different view on this case based on wide ownership of firearms.
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But when Jeremy Bamber planned to get in through the window he couldn’t chance the possibility that he’d be heard and Nevill would’ve immediately dialled 999 from his bedroom...
The ivory phone was seen in the kitchen on 5th Aug when the tel eng collected the cordless phone damaged in a recent storm.
If JB removed the ivory phone he could not be sure the Bambers would not put it back or plug in one of the other phones.
Actually thinking about it were those old rotary phones capable of being moved around? I thought they were wired in and fixed?
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This is such a weak argument that it just wouldn't pass muster Holly.
I disagree entirely. At trial the prosecution relied on the following re the tel call:
vii) The appellant's account of the telephone call from his father could be proved to be false for the following reasons:
a) His father was too badly injured to have spoken to anybody;
b) The telephone in the kitchen was not obviously blood stained;
If a shooting reconstruction places NB on the landing stairs when he sustained the two facial wounds and the perp was stood inside the bedroom firing out onto the landing then this puts an entirely different complexion on what jurors were told at trial.
At trial judge and jury were led to believe all adult victims sustained upstairs gunshot wounds in NB and June's bedroom.
http://www.homepage-link.to/JUSTICE/judgements/Bamber/index.html
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I think CW was just trying to illustrate approx how he thought SC shot herself. At the end of the day he is merely a poster on an internet forum not an expert witness providing testimony at trial. The experiments the FSS undertook using various women of different heights are no more or less scientific than CW's experiment given no measurements of SC's arm span were used and yet this played a part at trial!
Americans have a very different view of this case based on their wide ownership of firearms.
He made a big thing of his reconstruction and it was nothing more than him laying down with a rifle on his chest. We kinda knew that bit - obviously it's possible to shoot yourself laying down but his efforts proved nothing. At least the FSS used a silencer.
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I disagree entirely. At trial the prosecution relied on the following re the tel call:
vii) The appellant's account of the telephone call from his father could be proved to be false for the following reasons:
a) His father was too badly injured to have spoken to anybody;
b) The telephone in the kitchen was not obviously blood stained;
If a shooting reconstruction places NB on the landing stairs when he sustained the two facial wounds and the perp was stood inside the bedroom firing out onto the landing then this puts an entirely different complexion on what jurors were told at trial.
At trial judge and jury were led to believe all adult victims sustained upstairs gunshot wounds in NB and June's bedroom.
http://www.homepage-link.to/JUSTICE/judgements/Bamber/index.html
The defence had the opportunity to argue that Neville made the call before being shot - they didn't bother,
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Nevill ringing Bamber at 3am, would be the strangest reaction I can think of to being shot 4 times.
But with Nevill shot 4 times, there is no doubt Sheila had a gun and was going crazy. Resulting in Nevill only saying 9 words.
Prosecution & defence agreed this is when Nevill's phone call was made. There have been no alternative suggestions from the OS since conviction.
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Why, if he wasn't injured at that point?
So you’re saying while Sheila was going berserk With the gun, going from room to room shooting the family dead, Nevill strolled downstairs , searched for the telephone directory (without his reading glasses); thumbed through it, squinting, then phoned the local police station 20 miles away?
And then thought “Ah, I best call Jeremy too. He’ll come and get the rifle off Sheila...now, whats his number again...?”
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There is no evidence as far as I know that the Bamber men had to look through a telephone directory to find the telephone number of the police.
Not to be sexist, but women are more likely to keep track of birthdays and ages in my experience.
Jeremy looked through his telephone directory — he said so
He said it took him 10 minutes, too...which is odd when your terrified-sounding father has called asking for help...
We know Nevill made no calls at all: one because the police didn’t receive any from him or the house, and had he called, the phone would’ve been covered in blood
However, had he too decided to call the local police rather than 999 (despite it being a dire emergency) I’d guess he didn’t know the number off by heart. I don’t know mine, and I found very few people do
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The defence had the opportunity to argue that Neville made the call before being shot - they didn't bother,
Absolutely
The defence DAREN’T have even touched on that, as it would have proved NB couldn’t have been shot upstairs otherwise the phone would’ve been covered in blood
But forensics PROVED NB was indeed shot upstairs
How can people not REALISE that? *%87
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Jeremy looked through his telephone directory — he said so
He said it took him 10 minutes, too...which is odd when your terrified-sounding father has called asking for help...
We know Nevill made no calls at all: one because the police didn’t receive any from him or the house, and had he called, the phone would’ve been covered in blood
However, had he too decided to call the local police rather than 999 (despite it being a dire emergency) I’d guess he didn’t know the number off by heart. I don’t know mine, and I found very few people do
There was no reason why the phone should be covered in blood, and Nevill may have been familiar with the local police number, him being a Magistrate.
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There was no reason why the phone should be covered in blood, and Nevill may have been familiar with the local police number, him being a Magistrate.
He had already called Jeremy (allegedly) because 'Sheila had gone crazy with a gun' if he had then called the police, things must have escalated (bloody predictive text!) - why would he use the local number on a dial telephone? Nevill didn't call the police, the log proves it.
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Absolutely
The defence DAREN’T have even touched on that, as it would have proved NB couldn’t have been shot upstairs otherwise the phone would’ve been covered in blood
But forensics PROVED NB was indeed shot upstairs
How can people not REALISE that? *%87
Nobody is saying NB wasn't shot upstairs.
However, why couldn't Nevill have phoned Jeremy before he was shot at all, because Sheila had picked up the gun, and he was afraid she might use it?
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Nobody is saying NB wasn't shot upstairs.
However, why couldn't Nevill have phoned Jeremy before he was shot at all, because Sheila had picked up the gun, and he was afraid she might use it?
The Bambers were a private family too. They didn't talk about their troubles and Jeremy said his father didn't like involving 'institutions'. If Sheila had been violent before it's quite possible that her parents kept it quiet. Her father may have thought he could quieten her down and get the gun off her, because she was closer to him than to her mother.
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The Bambers were a private family too. They didn't talk about their troubles and Jeremy said his father didn't like involving 'institutions'. If Sheila had been violent before it's quite possible that her parents kept it quiet. Her father may have thought he could quieten her down and get the gun off her, because she was closer to him than to her mother.
Absolutely. In addition, Nevill might have thought that Jeremy might be able to calm Sheila down.
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Absolutely. In addition, Nevill might have thought that Jeremy might be able to calm Sheila down.
Afaik SC never discussed with her psychiatrist any ill-feeling between herself and JB. In fact Afaik she didn't mention him at all. Her morbid thoughts were restricted to June and the twins and I think her friend Freddie too.
Others will say JB and SC didn't get on but I don't see any evidence for this. CC invited JB to his party on the Sat before the murders and JB drove SC home afterwards. Why would all this happen if the pair didn't get on?
As Prince Harry recently said 'as brothers you have good days and bad days'.
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The Bambers were a private family too. They didn't talk about their troubles and Jeremy said his father didn't like involving 'institutions'. If Sheila had been violent before it's quite possible that her parents kept it quiet. Her father may have thought he could quieten her down and get the gun off her, because she was closer to him than to her mother.
This notion just doesn't cut it. No new is suggesting they take out a full page spread in the local newspaper, calling the police when you're in trouble has nothing to do with being 'a private person'. People argue this to support a call to Jeremy and then in the same breath claim he later called the police - did he stop being a private person within 10 mins? You're right, had this situation occurred, he would have tried to get the gun, not waste time calling Jeremy, who he knew would be asleep and take time to arrive there.
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Absolutely. In addition, Nevill might have thought that Jeremy might be able to calm Sheila down.
Why? If he couldn't get the gun (although there is no reason why he couldn't) then how would he expect Jeremy to when they didn't get on. The call would have wasted valuable time. It just didn't happen.
Question: How did Sheila manage to get the rifle, attach the magazine and get passed Nevill? Where was Nevill when this happened? If in bed, he must have gotten up and saw her with the rifle; are we then to stretch reality and consider that he just let her go upstairs with a fully loaded rifle while he called Jeremy? REALLY? If he was downstairs, how did she manage to attach the magazine with him in the vicinity? Did he just stand watching? The whole thing just doesn't make any sense.
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Why? If he couldn't get the gun (although there is no reason why he couldn't) then how would he expect Jeremy to when they didn't get on. The call would have wasted valuable time. It just didn't happen.
Question: How did Sheila manage to get the rifle, attach the magazine and get passed Nevill? Where was Nevill when this happened? If in bed, he must have gotten up and saw her with the rifle; are we then to stretch reality and consider that he just let her go upstairs with a fully loaded rifle while he called Jeremy? REALLY? If he was downstairs, how did she manage to attach the magazine with him in the vicinity? Did he just stand watching? The whole thing just doesn't make any sense.
As no-one knows where anyone was or who was awake or asleep then it's just a matter of opinion. According to what I've read Nevill's habit was to walk the dogs, put them back in, lock up, have a shower downstairs and repair to the Lounge with a drink before bed. If he followed his routine Sheila had opportunities then to get the gun and take it upstairs.
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As no-one knows where anyone was or who was awake or asleep then it's just a matter of opinion. According to what I've read Nevill's habit was to walk the dogs, put them back in, lock up, have a shower downstairs and repair to the Lounge with a drink before bed. If he followed his routine Sheila had opportunities then to get the gun and take it upstairs.
Anything is possible that doesn't detract from the physical evidence at soc.
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Pillows on NB and SC's bed depict indentations suggesting they had been to bed at some point. My thoughts are the pair then went downstairs when NB called JB and SC run upstairs with the gun and opened fire on June who had her head on the pillow when first shot as per the expert evidence. When NB and SC arrived downstairs and why is anyone's guess.
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The following shows a woman with long manicured and polished nails loading a mag, chambering a round and firing at targets. Nothing could be simpler unless someone was suffering learning disabilities and there's no evidence SC was.
SC was brought up around firearms and witnessed others using them all the time.
Other pieces of equipment SC must have mastered eg baby/child equipment such as a twin buggy/pram are far more complex than the rifle.
https://youtu.be/whOpcwwu5Zo
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As no-one knows where anyone was or who was awake or asleep then it's just a matter of opinion. According to what I've read Nevill's habit was to walk the dogs, put them back in, lock up, have a shower downstairs and repair to the Lounge with a drink before bed. If he followed his routine Sheila had opportunities then to get the gun and take it upstairs.
And Jeremy had time to come back to WHF.
If Sheila took the gun upstairs, how did Nevill know she had it? Where was he when he found out? If still downstairs, how did he know, if up why would he go down to call Jeremy and leave her there?
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Pillows on NB and SC's bed depict indentations suggesting they had been to bed at some point. My thoughts are the pair then went downstairs when NB called JB and SC run upstairs with the gun and opened fire on June who had her head on the pillow when first shot as per the expert evidence. When NB and SC arrived downstairs and why is anyone's guess.
They went downstairs? Has Sheila got the gun at this point? If so, why would NB waste time calling Jeremy instead of disarming Sheila and allowing her to go upstairs? When did she get the gun? While downstairs with Nevill or as someone else suggested, earlier and took it upstairs? If she took it upstairs, Nevill had to see her with it at some point or he wouldn't have known she had it and be able to tell Jeremy she had it. The whole thing is full of holes.
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The following shows a woman with long manicured and polished nails loading a mag, chambering a round and firing at targets. Nothing could be simpler unless someone was suffering learning disabilities and there's no evidence SC was.
SC was brought up around firearms and witnessed others using them all the time.
Other pieces of equipment SC must have mastered eg baby/child equipment such as a twin buggy/pram are far more complex than the rifle.
https://youtu.be/whOpcwwu5Zo
You not seriously suggesting this is like for like are you? The woman is clearly proficient with guns and at what point in the video does the woman suffer a psychotic attack? %56&
SC was NOT familiar with the .22 rifle. It had been fairly recently bought and the period was during her illness. Bamber told me me had never shown her own to use it and there is no reason why she would have needed to. She may have grown up in a household that had guns but she went off to private school around 8 years of age and I am sure no one forced a gun in her hand at that age. There is no evidence that Sheila knew how to load and fire the rifle - in fact there is much to show the opposite.
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I'm a bit ignorant on the issue of dial tones so would be grateful if someone could explain the difference between the engaged tone and when the phone is left off the hook. Or is this something only an exchange operator would know.
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I'm a bit ignorant on the issue of dial tones so would be grateful if someone could explain the difference between the engaged tone and when the phone is left off the hook. Or is this something only an exchange operator would know.
Off the hook - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtH3riyICyc
Engaged - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZJgTnwJfLU
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Off the hook - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtH3riyICyc
Engaged - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZJgTnwJfLU
Thanks Caroline----I need to look that up too!
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You not seriously suggesting this is like for like are you? The woman is clearly proficient with guns and at what point in the video does the woman suffer a psychotic attack? %56&
SC was NOT familiar with the .22 rifle. It had been fairly recently bought and the period was during her illness. Bamber told me me had never shown her own to use it and there is no reason why she would have needed to. She may have grown up in a household that had guns but she went off to private school around 8 years of age and I am sure no one forced a gun in her hand at that age. There is no evidence that Sheila knew how to load and fire the rifle - in fact there is much to show the opposite.
Totally agree. That brazen American hussy could crack nuts between her thighs whereas Sheila would have had difficulty even using a nutcracker. They're as different as chalk to cheese and a ludicrous comparison..
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Nevill ringing Bamber at 3am, would be the strangest reaction I can think of to being shot 4 times.
But with Nevill shot 4 times, there is no doubt Sheila had a gun and was going crazy. Resulting in Nevill only saying 9 words.
Prosecution & defence agreed this is when Nevill's phone call was made. There have been no alternative suggestions from the OS since conviction.
Not sure if you’ve been reading the false statements of JB and his team, but Nevill didn’t make a phone call
Besides proof from the police, are you suggesting when Nevill had his jaw smashed, half his tongue ripped out, a bullet in his larynx rendering him speechless — he decided to call JB rather than an ambulance and police?
Please...this is ridiculous
BTW, neither the prosecution or defence said Nevill made a phone call. You’re reading lies
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There was no reason why the phone should be covered in blood, and Nevill may have been familiar with the local police number, him being a Magistrate.
But Nevill’s face was absolutely covered in blood????!
And working as a magistrate about 10 days a YEAR in a court, would hardly suggest he knew, needed, wanted the number of Chelmsford Police Station 20 miles away lol
Magistrates have secretaries...and back then receptionists called offices on behalf of their boss...
Besides, the police CONFIRMED Nevill phones them
This is becoming farcical
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Pillows on NB and SC's bed depict indentations suggesting they had been to bed at some point. My thoughts are the pair then went downstairs when NB called JB and SC run upstairs with the gun and opened fire on June who had her head on the pillow when first shot as per the expert evidence. When NB and SC arrived downstairs and why is anyone's guess.
What, and left his wife June to be shit dead?????!!!!
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They went downstairs? Has Sheila got the gun at this point? If so, why would NB waste time calling Jeremy instead of disarming Sheila and allowing her to go upstairs? When did she get the gun? While downstairs with Nevill or as someone else suggested, earlier and took it upstairs? If she took it upstairs, Nevill had to see her with it at some point or he wouldn't have known she had it and be able to tell Jeremy she had it. The whole thing is full of holes.
I'm not suggesting they went downstairs together. But given the physical evidence supports NB in the kitchen on the phone to JB with SC going upstairs and opening fire on June in bed and NB hearing gunshots and dropping the phone to run upstairs and then sustaining his gunshot wounds on the landing stairs this is all that matters.
If the rifle was left out as JB claimed NB may well have moved it and/or emptied the mag but there was nothing to prevent SC seeking out the rifle given they were not locked away.
The pair may have been downstairs for some time talking about the twin's future. It is obvious SC was not well enough to look after them.
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You not seriously suggesting this is like for like are you? The woman is clearly proficient with guns and at what point in the video does the woman suffer a psychotic attack? %56&
SC was NOT familiar with the .22 rifle. It had been fairly recently bought and the period was during her illness. Bamber told me me had never shown her own to use it and there is no reason why she would have needed to. She may have grown up in a household that had guns but she went off to private school around 8 years of age and I am sure no one forced a gun in her hand at that age. There is no evidence that Sheila knew how to load and fire the rifle - in fact there is much to show the opposite.
The woman in the vid shows how simple it is to load a mag and prepare the rifle for firing. In terms of her ability to hit targets at range this clearly requires some experience but all victims at WHF sustained gunshot wounds when the rifle was a couple of feet away from the body. How could anyone miss? And many shots were fired when victims were immobile.
SC went to boarding school age 10 yoa and obviously spent school hols at WHF. Its no different to you and I observing our parents doing all sorts of things that you pick up without someone having to sit you down and talk you through it.
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The ivory phone was seen in the kitchen on 5th Aug when the tel eng collected the cordless phone damaged in a recent storm.
If JB removed the ivory phone he could not be sure the Bambers would not put it back or plug in one of the other phones.
Actually thinking about it were those old rotary phones capable of being moved around? I thought they were wired in and fixed?
Jeremy had a habit of snooping on the quiet, so would have checked thta night that no phone was in the master bedroom
Besides, what you’re forgetting is that none of the others can speak — Jeremy shot them all dead
It’s more than likely after the broken kitchen phone was taken away for repairs (which was possibly broken by JB...how often do walkabouts break?!) JB put the phone into the kitchen on the excuse he needed to make some calls
IF that phone was fixed in the kitchen socket, which means all the evidence that it was usually in the bedroom is false, then that means it was even easier for JB to take it it off the hook in case, by chance, Nevill had plugged another phone into the bedroom while the mysteriously “broken” walkabout had been sent for repairs just days before
Jeremy knew a heck of a LOT about the current phone situation in the farmhouse considering he no longer lived there!
But as you rightly say, Holly, when Jeremy crept in through the window he had to take the receiver off the hook IN CASE Nevill, by chance, had indeed plugged another one in the bedroom. That makes sense!
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Jeremy had a habit of snooping on the quiet, so would have checked thta night that no phone was in the master bedroom
Besides, what you’re forgetting is that none of the others can speak — Jeremy shot them all dead
It’s more than likely after the broken kitchen phone was taken away for repairs (which was possibly broken by JB...how often do walkabouts break?!) JB put the phone into the kitchen on the excuse he needed to make some calls
IF that phone was fixed in the kitchen socket, which means all the evidence that it was usually in the bedroom is false, then that means it was even easier for JB to take it it off the hook in case, by chance, Nevill had plugged another phone into the bedroom while the mysteriously “broken” walkabout had been sent for repairs just days before
Jeremy knew a heck of a LOT about the current phone situation in the farmhouse considering he no longer lived there!
But as you rightly say, Holly, when Jeremy crept in through the window he had to take the receiver off the hook IN CASE Nevill, by chance, had indeed plugged another one in the bedroom. That makes sense!
How do you know JB snooped on the quiet?
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What, and left his wife June to be shit dead?????!!!!
No. The physical and forensic evidence shows the perp first shot June when her head was on the pillow. She then sustained further gunshot wounds. NB then appeared on the landing and sustained his facial shots there.
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Afaik SC never discussed with her psychiatrist any ill-feeling between herself and JB. In fact Afaik she didn't mention him at all. Her morbid thoughts were restricted to June and the twins and I think her friend Freddie too.
Others will say JB and SC didn't get on but I don't see any evidence for this. CC invited JB to his party on the Sat before the murders and JB drove SC home afterwards. Why would all this happen if the pair didn't get on?
As Prince Harry recently said 'as brothers you have good days and bad days'.
No-one said Colin & Jeremy didn’t get on — prior to Colin discovering Jeremy had shot dead his sons and Sheila!
Colin was kind to Jeremy; wouldn't he be? Possibly because Colin still held a candle for Sheila; she was his sons mother; and so he kept things cordial
But Colin wasn’t Jeremy’s brother; he wasn’t even his brother-in-law any longer, so why you’re comparing the convicted mass murderer, Jeremy Bamber to Prince William & Harry is really weird in my opinion...they’ve not shot dead one another’s children & ex.
Neither have they tried to sell nude photos of the other’s ex partners
I can’t see the connection you’re trying to make?
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How do you know JB snooped on the quiet?
He’s admitted it in his official police statements
I can post them up for you if you’d like
There seems to be lots you don’t know...please don’t feel shy in asking for information; I’ll happily post it in here for you
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No. The physical and forensic evidence shows the perp first shot June when her head was on the pillow. She then sustained further gunshot wounds. NB then appeared on the landing and sustained his facial shots there.
And June wasn’t fatally injured at that time...Jeremy shot her dead between the eyes after she got up and ran
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Off the hook - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtH3riyICyc
Engaged - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZJgTnwJfLU
Thanks Caroline. I've always assumed you just got the engaged tone.
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I'm not suggesting they went downstairs together. But given the physical evidence supports NB in the kitchen on the phone to JB with SC going upstairs and opening fire on June in bed and NB hearing gunshots and dropping the phone to run upstairs and then sustaining his gunshot wounds on the landing stairs this is all that matters.
If the rifle was left out as JB claimed NB may well have moved it and/or emptied the mag but there was nothing to prevent SC seeking out the rifle given they were not locked away.
The pair may have been downstairs for some time talking about the twin's future. It is obvious SC was not well enough to look after them.
It doesn't.
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No-one said Colin & Jeremy didn’t get on — prior to Colin discovering Jeremy had shot dead his sons and Sheila!
Colin was kind to Jeremy; wouldn't he be? Possibly because Colin still held a candle for Sheila; she was his sons mother; and so he kept things cordial
But Colin wasn’t Jeremy’s brother; he wasn’t even his brother-in-law any longer, so why you’re comparing the convicted mass murderer, Jeremy Bamber to Prince William & Harry is really weird in my opinion...they’ve not shot dead one another’s children & ex.
Neither have they tried to sell nude photos of the other’s ex partners
I can’t see the connection you’re trying to make?
Colin Caffell cheated on Sheila when she was pregnant, so I don't think he was holding a candle for her at all. It was the other way round in my opinion.
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The defence had the opportunity to argue that Neville made the call before being shot - they didn't bother,
Are defence lawyers always right?
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Colin Caffell cheated on Sheila when she was pregnant, so I don't think he was holding a candle for her at all. It was the other way round in my opinion.
Mmm. Whilst I'm not condoning what he did, he wasn't the first, and he certainly won't be the last, to 'play away' during a wife's pregnancy. Bottom line was that it was only sex, and as such, just another appetite to feed. Once sated, forgotten. We must also remember that his and Sheila's probably wasn't a mutual love match. Once the pregnancy was lost, which forced their marriage, it may have been that he was looking for a way out, but was stopped by Sheila, desperate to be a mother, becoming pregnant with the twins and following a difficult pregnancy giving birth to boys he adored. As the saying goes, "Man cannot live on bread alone".
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Are defence lawyers always right?
I doubt it! Is anyone always right?
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Are defence lawyers always right?
Certainly not! There can be no doubt a poor defence featured in this case at trial and 2002 appeal hearing. The 1989 appeal hearing was handled by the same trial lawyers. Having read William Clegg QC's autobiography of sorts 'Under The Wig' I hope he will be in a position to take JB's third appeal.
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I doubt it! Is anyone always right?
No but the difference between QC's and lesser mortals is that the latter are held to account!
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It doesn't.
It does. I'm not saying it shows NB made the call just that it was entirely possible for him to have done so before any shots were fired. Jurors were misled over this in that they were told JB entered NB/June's bedroom and opened fire with NB sustaining the facial wounds there. How could he then have made the phone call when the pathological evidence showed he was incapable of purposeful speech thereafter and had he attempted to put his mouth to the phone he would have transferred blood stains it.
The physical evidence at soc places NB on the landing stairs when he sustained his facial wounds so entirely possible he came up the stairs from the kitchen having made the call to JB.
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Mmm. Whilst I'm not condoning what he did, he wasn't the first, and he certainly won't be the last, to 'play away' during a wife's pregnancy. Bottom line was that it was only sex, and as such, just another appetite to feed. Once sated, forgotten. We must also remember that his and Sheila's probably wasn't a mutual love match. Once the pregnancy was lost, which forced their marriage, it may have been that he was looking for a way out, but was stopped by Sheila, desperate to be a mother, becoming pregnant with the twins and following a difficult pregnancy giving birth to boys he adored. As the saying goes, "Man cannot live on bread alone".
But I don't think it was just another appetite to feed as CC ended up living with the woman in question: Jan Flowers. It seems she eventually saw the light and offloaded him.
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Mmm. Whilst I'm not condoning what he did, he wasn't the first, and he certainly won't be the last, to 'play away' during a wife's pregnancy. Bottom line was that it was only sex, and as such, just another appetite to feed. Once sated, forgotten. We must also remember that his and Sheila's probably wasn't a mutual love match. Once the pregnancy was lost, which forced their marriage, it may have been that he was looking for a way out, but was stopped by Sheila, desperate to be a mother, becoming pregnant with the twins and following a difficult pregnancy giving birth to boys he adored. As the saying goes, "Man cannot live on bread alone".
Nevertheless it nullifies your attempt to suggest Caffell was still enamoured of Sheila, doesn't it? How do you know it was 'only sex'?
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And June wasn’t fatally injured at that time...Jeremy shot her dead between the eyes after she got up and ran
People usually run away from the person with the gun, so shooting them between the eyes would be difficult.
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Nevertheless it nullifies your attempt to suggest Caffell was still enamoured of Sheila, doesn't it? How do you know it was 'only sex'?
MY attempt? I'm not aware of ever having suggested that such was the case.............although I have no doubts that he had once been in lust with her. As the mother of his children he probably retained a fondness for her.
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MY attempt? I'm not aware of ever having suggested that such was the case.............although I have no doubts that he had once been in lust with her. As the mother of his children he probably retained a fondness for her.
And he still retains contact with and obviously has a fondness for Christine, Sheila's mother.
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It does. I'm not saying it shows NB made the call just that it was entirely possible for him to have done so before any shots were fired. Jurors were misled over this in that they were told JB entered NB/June's bedroom and opened fire with NB sustaining the facial wounds there. How could he then have made the phone call when the pathological evidence showed he was incapable of purposeful speech thereafter and had he attempted to put his mouth to the phone he would have transferred blood stains it.
The physical evidence at soc places NB on the landing stairs when he sustained his facial wounds so entirely possible he came up the stairs from the kitchen having made the call to JB.
They weren't misled, the defence could have brought that up at trial and didn't. It's basic commons sense to suggest that if a call was made, then it was clearly made before he was shot - his defence thought it best not to pursue - there must have been a reason.
It's also entirely possible that he pushed pass Bamber and there are other possibilities.
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People usually run away from the person with the gun, so shooting them between the eyes would be difficult.
Hard to run away when you've been shot through the leg.
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Nevertheless it nullifies your attempt to suggest Caffell was still enamoured of Sheila, doesn't it? How do you know it was 'only sex'?
I'm not sure why you would need the opinion of someone from a forum when you have his own words either from his book or from interviews. No one knows how he felt better than he did/does.
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They weren't misled, the defence could have brought that up at trial and didn't. It's basic commons sense to suggest that if a call was made, then it was clearly made before he was shot - his defence thought it best not to pursue - there must have been a reason.
It's also entirely possible that he pushed pass Bamber and there are other possibilities.
Lawyers are as capable as anyone of being incompetent and negligent especially if they had no prior experience of mass shooting which obviously they didn't.
Even MT QC at the 2002 appeal hearing has NB making the call after he sustained the upstairs gsw's. His argument was an officer used the phone and inadvertently removed the blood stains. This is clearly nonsense but illustrates another QC not on top of his brief. Roll on 3rd appeal with a top notch QC like William Clegg.
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Lawyers are as capable as anyone of being incompetent and negligent especially if they had no prior experience of mass shooting which obviously they didn't.
Even MT QC at the 2002 appeal hearing has NB making the call after he sustained the upstairs gsw's. His argument was an officer used the phone and inadvertently removed the blood stains. This is clearly nonsense but illustrates another QC not on top of his brief. Roll on 3rd appeal with a top notch QC like William Clegg.
In order to achieve a 3rd appeal there needs to be compelling new evidence and there is none.
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Hard to run away when you've been shot through the leg.
I think you need to tell Ispywithmybigeye, not me.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11235.msg575056#msg575056
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Lawyers are as capable as anyone of being incompetent and negligent especially if they had no prior experience of mass shooting which obviously they didn't.
Even MT QC at the 2002 appeal hearing has NB making the call after he sustained the upstairs gsw's. His argument was an officer used the phone and inadvertently removed the blood stains. This is clearly nonsense but illustrates another QC not on top of his brief. Roll on 3rd appeal with a top notch QC like William Clegg.
Did Jeremy Bamber use Kingsley Napley all the way through?
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In order to achieve a 3rd appeal there needs to be compelling new evidence and there is none.
But you're not privy to what is going on behind the scenes.
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Did Jeremy Bamber use Kingsley Napley all the way through?
No. When he was arrested and interviewed under caution he was represented by local solicitor Bruce Bowler. Imo he might well have been served better by continuing with this solicitor. I always thought it was his then girlfriend Anji Greaves who sought out David Napley's firm but Brett Collins said recently it was him. Anyhow I understand from another barrister that it was the first case Napley's firm had taken on funded by legal aid and that this resulted in somewhat of an inferior service. Post trial the appeals process swung into action with the same legal team. Thereafter it has been all over the place with various players dipping in and out on a mainly pro nono basis resulting in a lack of proper management and oversight of the case.
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But you're not privy to what is going on behind the scenes.
Are you?
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No. When he was arrested and interviewed under caution he was represented by local solicitor Bruce Bowler. Imo he might well have been served better by continuing with this solicitor. I always thought it was his then girlfriend Anji Greaves who sought out David Napley's firm but Brett Collins said recently it was him. Anyhow I understand from another barrister that it was the first case Napley's firm had taken on funded by legal aid and that this resulted in somewhat of an inferior service. Post trial the appeals process swung into action with the same legal team. Thereafter it has been all over the place with various players dipping in and out on a mainly pro nono basis resulting in a lack of proper management and oversight of the case.
Why do you think that is? This current solicitor is just going over old ground.
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Why do you think that is? This current solicitor is just going over old ground.
Because once a verdict is returned a defendant becomes an appellant and your back is very much against the wall especially if you have no family fighting for you. Yeah I know he shot them all 8(8-))
If things go the way I anticipate the prosecution case will be oblitereated ?>)()<
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Are you?
Yes in my own sweet way. I'm working with various other independents behind the scene.
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Yes in my own sweet way. I'm working with various other independents behind the scene.
OIC @)(++(* - so you're not privy either. Good luck anyway - you'll certainly need it.
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OIC @)(++(* - so you're not privy either. Good luck anyway - you'll certainly need it.
Not privy? I'm the instigator ?>)()< 8(>((
I like a challenge!
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Not privy? I'm the instigator ?>)()< 8(>((
I like a challenge!
To anything official.
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No. When he was arrested and interviewed under caution he was represented by local solicitor Bruce Bowler. Imo he might well have been served better by continuing with this solicitor. I always thought it was his then girlfriend Anji Greaves who sought out David Napley's firm but Brett Collins said recently it was him. Anyhow I understand from another barrister that it was the first case Napley's firm had taken on funded by legal aid and that this resulted in somewhat of an inferior service. Post trial the appeals process swung into action with the same legal team. Thereafter it has been all over the place with various players dipping in and out on a mainly pro nono basis resulting in a lack of proper management and oversight of the case.
Thanks. I just wondered as they were involved with the McCann couple.
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Thanks. I just wondered as they were involved with the McCann couple.
Just had a little Google and I see it was in connection with intrusion into their private life. I haven't really looked into the history of the firm and the main players but it seems they gained somewhat of a high profile on the back of the Jeremy Thorpe case and then handled other high profile cases: Nick Leason and the Maxwell brothers. A solicitor by the name of Paul Terzeon acted for JB but there's no evidence he had any experience in cases involving firearms let alone a mass shooting. Terzeon instructed Geoffrey Rivlin QC and the late Ed Lawson QC as junior. Again there's no evidence the QC's had any experience in cases involving firearms. I've always maintained the defence needed to seek out experts from US where cases involving firearms are bread and butter!
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And June wasn’t fatally injured at that time...Jeremy shot her dead between the eyes after she got up and ran
According to the pathologist the shots June sustained initially would have killed her had the head shots not supervened. Had JB been the perp he would not have wasted *5 or 6 bullets on June before inflicting the head shots.
* June sustained a bruise to her chest thought to be from a bullet but it was not fully concluded whether this involved a bullet from another shot or a separate bullet due to the way exited bullets and casings were found.
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According to the pathologist the shots June sustained initially would have killed her had the head shots not supervened. Had JB been the perp he would not have wasted *5 or 6 bullets on June before inflicting the head shots.
* June sustained a bruise to her chest thought to be from a bullet but it was not fully concluded whether this involved a bullet from another shot or a separate bullet due to the way exited bullets and casings were found.
If he wanted it to believed some one who was supposedly off her rocker did it.
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According to the pathologist the shots June sustained initially would have killed her had the head shots not supervened. Had JB been the perp he would not have wasted *5 or 6 bullets on June before inflicting the head shots.
* June sustained a bruise to her chest thought to be from a bullet but it was not fully concluded whether this involved a bullet from another shot or a separate bullet due to the way exited bullets and casings were found.
But it's possible to have said that of all the victims, isn't it? The expert marksman Jeremy was could have dispatched all of them -especially the sleeping twins- with just a single shot. He wasn't trying to demonstrate his own prowess -which would have been an immediate give away- he was demonstrating how someone incompetent would have shot had they gone berserk.
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If he wanted it to believed some one who was supposedly off her rocker did it.
By using 25/26 cartridges it involved at least 2 reloads which kind of defeats the arguments about JB's claims of bunny hunting earlier as a ruse for leaving the rifle out if SC had to hunt out ammo and reload at least twice.
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If he wanted it to believed some one who was supposedly off her rocker did it.
Nah... Far too risky. By doing that it would put his year long plan in danger of failure. He panicked when they became moving targets and couldn't decide which to shoot first, so took random potshots at both until they eventually succumbed to their wounds before delivering the final six to their heads.
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But it's possible to have said that of all the victims, isn't it? The expert marksman Jeremy was could have dispatched all of them -especially the sleeping twins- with just a single shot. He wasn't trying to demonstrate his own prowess -which would have been an immediate give away- he was demonstrating how someone incompetent would have shot had they gone berserk.
Or he was just making absolutely sure that they wouldn't stand in the way of his inheritance.
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But it's possible to have said that of all the victims, isn't it? The expert marksman Jeremy was could have dispatched all of them -especially the sleeping twins- with just a single shot. He wasn't trying to demonstrate his own prowess -which would have been an immediate give away- he was demonstrating how someone incompetent would have shot had they gone berserk.
I thought those who believe JB responsible claim he left the rifle out all ready for SC to go except by wasting so many shots she had to hunt out further ammo and reload at least twice.
There's a marksman and there's a mad man! Only a mad man would think it possible he could control 3 adults in at least two different rooms and 2 children in another room and make it look manic in the process.
Although SC was inexperienced with firearms she only had to control 2 adults in 2 completely different locations within the house. This she did by initially firing 5/6 shots at June in the bedroom and seriously wounding her in the process to the extent her injuries would have killed her had the head shots not supervened. NB then sustained the two facial shots as he stood on the landing stairs which, like June's initial shots, would have killed him had the head shots not supervened.
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Nah... Far too risky. By doing that it would put his year long plan in danger of failure. He panicked when they became moving targets and couldn't decide which to shoot first, so took random potshots at both until they eventually succumbed to their wounds before delivering the final six to their heads.
All shots fired were within 2 feet. Hardly something for a marksman to panic about. How could anyone miss? It's why fairs have plastic ducks and not mannequins!
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All shots fired were within 2 feet. Hardly something for a marksman to panic about. How could anyone miss? It's why fairs have plastic ducks and not mannequins!
As I've said numerous times, his plan was to dispose of everyone with head shots while they were asleep... but it nearly went pear-shaped because they weren't.
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By using 25/26 cartridges it involved at least 2 reloads which kind of defeats the arguments about JB's claims of bunny hunting earlier as a ruse for leaving the rifle out if SC had to hunt out ammo and reload at least twice.
Ok,in what order were they fired is it known? 5 for one of the poor lads 3 for the other 2 for Sheila it was 7 shots for June 8 for Nevill,at some stage a reload had to occur,what shot out of the 7 to June and the 8 for Nevill killed?
If the twins were shot first,that was 8 possibly one each into June and Nevill,then a reload,if neither June or Nevill suffered fatally with the first shot each one especially Nevill would put up a fight,Shelia's body never displayed any evidence of this did it?
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As I've said numerous times, his plan was to dispose of everyone with head shots while they were asleep... but it nearly went pear-shaped because they weren't.
Of course they weren't asleep. NB and SC were downstairs. NB then phoned JB and in the meantime SC went upstairs and opened fire on June until NB appeared on the landing and SC turned 90 degrees to inflict the facial wounds to NB
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I thought those who believe JB responsible claim he left the rifle out all ready for SC to go except by wasting so many shots she had to hunt out further ammo and reload at least twice.
There's a marksman and there's a mad man! Only a mad man would think it possible he could control 3 adults in at least two different rooms and 2 children in another room and make it look manic in the process.
Although SC was inexperienced with firearms she only had to control 2 adults in 2 completely different locations within the house. This she did by initially firing 5/6 shots at June in the bedroom and seriously wounding her in the process to the extent her injuries would have killed her had the head shots not supervened. NB then sustained the two facial shots as he stood on the landing stairs which, like June's initial shots, would have killed him had the head shots not supervened.
No one would commit any crime without first being supremely confident of getting away with it. The doubts we speak of are ours, not theirs.
The Sheila you're presenting, to have worked out how she'd control her victims, is way more calculated than the emotionally crippled woman I see her as being.
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By using 25/26 cartridges it involved at least 2 reloads which kind of defeats the arguments about JB's claims of bunny hunting earlier as a ruse for leaving the rifle out if SC had to hunt out ammo and reload at least twice.
Hunt out ammo, he had tipped it on the counter top in full view of SC (allegedly). She didn't have to hunt for anything - it was all conveniently laid out for his story. This along with him telling the cops that she knew how to use all of the guns - in his mind - gets him off the hook.
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I thought those who believe JB responsible claim he left the rifle out all ready for SC to go except by wasting so many shots she had to hunt out further ammo and reload at least twice.
There's a marksman and there's a mad man! Only a mad man would think it possible he could control 3 adults in at least two different rooms and 2 children in another room and make it look manic in the process.
Although SC was inexperienced with firearms she only had to control 2 adults in 2 completely different locations within the house. This she did by initially firing 5/6 shots at June in the bedroom and seriously wounding her in the process to the extent her injuries would have killed her had the head shots not supervened. NB then sustained the two facial shots as he stood on the landing stairs which, like June's initial shots, would have killed him had the head shots not supervened.
Or a psychopath.
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All shots fired were within 2 feet. Hardly something for a marksman to panic about. How could anyone miss? It's why fairs have plastic ducks and not mannequins!
Of course they could have missed - the shot to Nevill on the stairs couldn't have been 2 feels away. I thought you weren't impressed by the ballistics evidence? You do use it though when backing up points like this.
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No one would commit any crime without first being supremely confident of getting away with it. The doubts we speak of are ours, not theirs.
The Sheila you're presenting, to have worked out how she'd control her victims, is way more calculated than the emotionally crippled woman I see her as being.
Both the Bamber children were emotionally crippled in my opinion. At the time of the shootings, however, the one who was most likely to have a meltdown of some kind was Sheila. She had a failed marriage, a failed career, severe mental problems and was unable to care for her children. That looks like rock bottom to me.
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Or a psychopath.
A narcissistic psychopath. When John Henry Browne talks about Ted Bundy, he could be describing Bamber.
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Both the Bamber children were emotionally crippled in my opinion. At the time of the shootings, however, the one who was most likely to have a meltdown of some kind was Sheila. She had a failed marriage, a failed career, severe mental problems and was unable to care for her children. That looks like rock bottom to me.
She also had a family that paid her rent, gave her money as and when she needed it. She didn't really have to work and could see her kids whenever she wanted. Her mental issues were being medicated - which is why all descriptions are of someone uncoordinated. These descriptions come from independent sources - NOT just the family. Jeremy didn't have a 'meltdown' - he had a plan and a liking for the highlife.
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Both the Bamber children were emotionally crippled in my opinion. At the time of the shootings, however, the one who was most likely to have a meltdown of some kind was Sheila. She had a failed marriage, a failed career, severe mental problems and was unable to care for her children. That looks like rock bottom to me.
Sheila had HAD a melt down. Sheila had expressed her unhappiness. Sheila had expressed frustration -remember how she'd hurled things?- Jeremy had kept it all inside. A very dangerous place for it to be kept, when it eventually explodes.
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Sheila had HAD a melt down. Sheila had expressed her unhappiness. Sheila had expressed frustration -remember how she'd hurled things?- Jeremy had kept it all inside. A very dangerous place for it to be kept, when it eventually explodes.
Sheila admitted she was bothered by her adoption and did something about it. She met her real mother and the meeting went well and she was 'looking forward' to building a relationship with her. Jeremy claimed it didn't bother him - I don't buy that.
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Sheila admitted she was bothered by her adoption and did something about it. She met her real mother and the meeting went well and she was 'looking forward' to building a relationship with her. Jeremy claimed it didn't bother him - I don't buy that.
Nor do I. He may have come to the decision to do nothing about it, but I can't accept that he "wasn't bothered".
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She also had a family that paid her rent, gave her money as and when she needed it. She didn't really have to work and could see her kids whenever she wanted. Her mental issues were being medicated - which is why all descriptions are of someone uncoordinated. These descriptions come from independent sources - NOT just the family. Jeremy didn't have a 'meltdown' - he had a plan and a liking for the highlife.
At the age of 28 being reliant on her parents to keep a roof over her head and money in her purse was not going to be a comfort, it was just another sign of their control of her and her inability to become her own person. He (or she) who pays the piper calls the tune.
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At the age of 28 being reliant on her parents to keep a roof over her head and money in her purse was not going to be a comfort, it was just another sign of their control of her and her inability to become her own person. He (or she) who pays the piper calls the tune.
How many people on the dole right now would feel far more comfortable if they had a benefactor? It's all she had really known. Also, The Bmabers gave Jeremy free accommodation, a free car and fuel - he didn't want to work at the farm but it was the price he paid for the benefits - with itchy feet and what he thought wasn't enough money - who was more resentful. You can't apply one rule for Sheila and not to Jeremy.
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At the age of 28 being reliant on her parents to keep a roof over her head and money in her purse was not going to be a comfort, it was just another sign of their control of her and her inability to become her own person. He (or she) who pays the piper calls the tune.
It had always been thus. She'd have known that whatever hole she was in, they were there to dig her out. Actually, less was required of her, than Jeremy. If any of her numerous failed careers/marriage had succeeded, that support may not have been necessary, unlike Jeremy, who had to work -at something he wasn't enamoured with- to earn what Sheila got for free.
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How many people on the dole right now would feel far more comfortable if they had a benefactor? It's all she had really known. Also, The Bmabers gave Jeremy free accommodation, a free car and fuel - he didn't want to work at the farm but it was the price he paid for the benefits - with itchy feet and what he thought wasn't enough money - who was more resentful. You can't apply one rule for Sheila and not to Jeremy.
A true benefactor wants nothing in return, whereas the Bambers used money to control their children. That's economic abuse.
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A true benefactor wants nothing in return, whereas the Bambers used money to control their children. That's economic abuse.
It could also be called emotional blackmail and psychological/emotional abuse. However, it's likely that the senior Bambers just saw it as being parents.
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A true benefactor wants nothing in return, whereas the Bambers used money to control their children. That's economic abuse.
Then there are a lot of people suffering from it then! I hardly call two around the world trips ‘abusive’ There worse things but the situation benefited Sheila - it just made Jeremy resentful. Do you think the price they paid was justifiable for more than providing for their children?
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It could also be called emotional blackmail and psychological/emotional abuse. However, it's likely that the senior Bambers just saw it as being parents.
You could apply those term to half the parents in the country.
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You could apply those term to have the parents in the country.
Name me a parent who hasn't resorted to it now and again!!!!
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Name me a parent who hasn't resorted to it now and again!!!!
I guess you worked out that I meant 'half'? @)(++(* @)(++(* I hate predictive text! %56&
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I guess you worked out that I meant 'half'? @)(++(* @)(++(* I hate predictive text! %56&
Can make for interesting reading, though 8(0(*
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Then there are a lot of people suffering from it then! I hardly call two around the world trips ‘abusive’ There worse things but the situation benefited Sheila - it just made Jeremy resentful. Do you think the price they paid was justifiable for more than providing for their children?
You clearly don't understand economic abuse.
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You clearly don't understand economic abuse.
Is there proof that either was guilty of it? Many parents dangle the financial carrot under their children's noses as a way of keeping them in check. Of course, they then complain bitterly that their children won't do anything for them unless they're paid for doing it. Both parents and children get to learn, too late, that there's no such thing as a free lunch.
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You clearly don't understand economic abuse.
And you don’t understand the difference between taking money for an easy life and being supported by ones family due to no fault of their own.
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And you don’t understand the difference between taking money for an easy life and being supported by ones family due to no fault of their own.
I can condemn June Bamber quite easily. Any adopted mother who tells her child she has 'bad blood' is a disgrace. I know because it happened to me.
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I can condemn June Bamber quite easily. Any adopted mother who tells her child she has 'bad blood' is a disgrace. I know because it happened to me.
June was a victim of an horrendous murder and suffered mental health issues herself. Clearly she should never have said that nor should that have happened to you. But you managed to get though life having had such an experience without murdering anyone so why should you be so surprised that Sheila didn't?
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June was a victim of an horrendous murder and suffered mental health issues herself. Clearly she should never have said that nor should that have happened to you. But you managed to get though life having had such an experience without murdering anyone so why should you be so surprised that Sheila didn't?
Not everyone reacts to circumstances in the same way.
I have never expressed surprise that Sheila didn't murder anyone because I don't know if she did or not.
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June was a victim of an horrendous murder and suffered mental health issues herself. Clearly she should never have said that nor should that have happened to you. But you managed to get though life having had such an experience without murdering anyone so why should you be so surprised that Sheila didn't?
June suffered mental health issues before SC and JB had even been conceived. According to Dr Ferguson, and June's close friends, June's inability to conceive was at the heart of her mental health issues. Having adopted SC June shortly suffered another breakdown which we are told by Dr Ferguson was all bound up with her decision to adopt.
The Bamber's should never have been approved to adopt in the first instance. The fact SC was allowed to remain with them and they went on to adopt JB beggars belief.
There's much evidence this case is about an adoption that went horribly wrong between June and SC as opposed to an 'inheritance killer'.
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June suffered mental health issues before SC and JB had even been conceived. According to Dr Ferguson, and June's close friends, June's inability to conceive was at the heart of her mental health issues. Having adopted SC June shortly suffered another breakdown which we are told by Dr Ferguson was all bound up with her decision to adopt.
The Bamber's should never have been approved to adopt in the first instance. The fact SC was allowed to remain with them and they went on to adopt JB beggars belief.
There's much evidence this case is about an adoption that went horribly wrong between June and SC as opposed to an 'inheritance killer'.
No shared genes:
- Adoptive mother mental illness pre and post adoptions
- Adopted daughter mental illness
- Adopted son found guilty of murdering 5 members of adoptive family
*%87
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Ok,in what order were they fired is it known? 5 for one of the poor lads 3 for the other 2 for Sheila it was 7 shots for June 8 for Nevill,at some stage a reload had to occur,what shot out of the 7 to June and the 8 for Nevill killed?
If the twins were shot first,that was 8 possibly one each into June and Nevill,then a reload,if neither June or Nevill suffered fatally with the first shot each one especially Nevill would put up a fight,Shelia's body never displayed any evidence of this did it?
To date a shooting reconstruction hasn't taken place but its all to play for as the relevant data has been captured.
I believe NB and SC were downstairs. NB made the call to JB whilst he was doing so SC went upstairs and opened fire on June inflicting 5/6 gunshot wounds. Hearing the shots NB dropped the handset on the kitchen worktop where it was found. NB run up the stairs and when on the landing stairs SC pivoted 90 degrees to face NB and shot him twice in the face. NB turned to retreat downstairs and when he was on the main staircase SC followed and shot him twice in the rear: shoulder and elbow/chest. NB went to the kitchen with SC following where she beat him with the rifle and inflicted the four immediately fatal head shots.
Exactly what happened thereafter in terms of whether the twins were shot before or after June sustained the two immediately fatal head shots I don't think will ever be known.
The pathologist said in his opinion the shots Nicholas sustained appeared to have been inflicted concurrently and given the twins appear to have slept through I think the shots to both were fired concurrently with SC taking her life shortly afterwards.
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No one would commit any crime without first being supremely confident of getting away with it. The doubts we speak of are ours, not theirs.
The Sheila you're presenting, to have worked out how she'd control her victims, is way more calculated than the emotionally crippled woman I see her as being.
JB or SC are very different propositions.
If JB the motive was arguably to fast fwd his inheritance.
If SC her mind was in such an altered state she felt the only way was to murder her family and take her own life. There was no planning as such but with two adults in two completely different parts of the farmhouse, two small sleeping children in a separate room and in possession of a loaded firearm with no regard for her own life it was only going one way. Its why Islamic terrorists are so dangerous in that they're happy to lose their life in carrying out acts of terror to pursue their warped ideology.
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Hunt out ammo, he had tipped it on the counter top in full view of SC (allegedly). She didn't have to hunt for anything - it was all conveniently laid out for his story. This along with him telling the cops that she knew how to use all of the guns - in his mind - gets him off the hook.
Assuming JB's claims of leaving the rifle out were correct there's no guarantee NB wouldn't have emptied the magazine and then placed the rifle and mag back in the downstairs office where they were normally kept. In fact there's some evidence this happened as some of the spent casings had marks on them consistent with having been loaded on a previous occasions. I recall Scipio said this was good practice as keeping the mag loaded weakened the mechanism. And the maths behind a full box of cartridges, those on worktop and the 25/26 used doesn't add up. There's knowing how to use something and there's being proficient at using something.
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Not everyone reacts to circumstances in the same way.
I have never expressed surprise that Sheila didn't murder anyone because I don't know if she did or not.
Your posts are coming over as supporting Jeremy Bamber so it seems that you do have a leaning.
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June suffered mental health issues before SC and JB had even been conceived. According to Dr Ferguson, and June's close friends, June's inability to conceive was at the heart of her mental health issues. Having adopted SC June shortly suffered another breakdown which we are told by Dr Ferguson was all bound up with her decision to adopt.
The Bamber's should never have been approved to adopt in the first instance. The fact SC was allowed to remain with them and they went on to adopt JB beggars belief.
There's much evidence this case is about an adoption that went horribly wrong between June and SC as opposed to an 'inheritance killer'.
Well aware of all of that and if the adoption has a bearing on the case it has a bearing for both. Sheila's problems were laid bare - Jeremy was the one in denial - a pressure cooker.
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Of course they could have missed - the shot to Nevill on the stairs couldn't have been 2 feels away. I thought you weren't impressed by the ballistics evidence? You do use it though when backing up points like this.
The facial shots on the landing stairs were inflicted when the muzzle was within inches of NB.
The shots to NB's rear whilst stood on main stairs were within two feet.
You don't need a ballistics expert to point out the obvious ie all shots were close range; the confines of the farmhouse by way of walls, fixtures, fittings, furniture and the length of the rifle limit the range to within a few feet max.
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Well aware of all of that and if the adoption has a bearing on the case it has a bearing for both. Sheila's problems were laid bare - Jeremy was the one in denial - a pressure cooker.
It's not just the effect of adoption but the effect of June's mental illness on SC at a crucial stage of her development with the potential for a 'disorganised attachment'.
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It had always been thus. She'd have known that whatever hole she was in, they were there to dig her out. Actually, less was required of her, than Jeremy. If any of her numerous failed careers/marriage had succeeded, that support may not have been necessary, unlike Jeremy, who had to work -at something he wasn't enamoured with- to earn what Sheila got for free.
So how do you explain SC being so despate for cash she resorted to pornographic modelling?
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How many people on the dole right now would feel far more comfortable if they had a benefactor? It's all she had really known. Also, The Bmabers gave Jeremy free accommodation, a free car and fuel - he didn't want to work at the farm but it was the price he paid for the benefits - with itchy feet and what he thought wasn't enough money - who was more resentful. You can't apply one rule for Sheila and not to Jeremy.
JB didn't receive free housing, car and fuel; it was part of his package of benefits for working at the farm akin to what a farm manager would expect to receive and at the time would have received favourable tax benefits.
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She also had a family that paid her rent, gave her money as and when she needed it. She didn't really have to work and could see her kids whenever she wanted. Her mental issues were being medicated - which is why all descriptions are of someone uncoordinated. These descriptions come from independent sources - NOT just the family. Jeremy didn't have a 'meltdown' - he had a plan and a liking for the highlife.
June bought SC's flat with a mortgage of 10k. If the Bamber's gave SC money as and when required then why did she turn to the porn modelling?
Why did she undertake low paid work eg cleaning and dressing up as a schoolgirl to wait on men? 8(8-))
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And if she was uncoordinated who manicured and polished her nails when there's no evidence anyone carried out these tasks other than herself?
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June bought SC's flat with a mortgage of 10k. If the Bamber's gave SC money as and when required then why did she turn to the porn modelling?
Why did she undertake low paid work eg cleaning and dressing up as a schoolgirl to wait on men? 8(8-))
So they bought her a flat? The devils!
Wanting to make extra money for herself isn't anything strange and she used what she had - lots of women do that, are they all suffering from 'emotional abuse'?
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And if she was uncoordinated who manicured and polished her nails when there's no evidence anyone carried out these tasks other than herself?
There's no evidence that someone else didn't do it. She had a friend who lived nearby - perhaps she did it. There is no evidence that Sheila did her own nails - which you already know.
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It had always been thus. She'd have known that whatever hole she was in, they were there to dig her out. Actually, less was required of her, than Jeremy. If any of her numerous failed careers/marriage had succeeded, that support may not have been necessary, unlike Jeremy, who had to work -at something he wasn't enamoured with- to earn what Sheila got for free.
And what exactly did SC get for free? June purchased the flat SC lived in rent free. According to Claire Powell's book SC claimed DSS benefits. CC was in the main unemployed. I've never read anything about SC eating out let alone weekends away or foreign holidays. And none of the photos I've seen suggest she had any sort of wardrobe allowance.
I see the Bamber's as high net worth but old money hence June would take SC weekly food parcels no doubt a lot of which was grown on the farm and/or sourced locally.
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There's no evidence that someone else didn't do it. She had a friend who lived nearby - perhaps she did it. There is no evidence that Sheila did her own nails - which you already know.
If anyone did her nails I'm sure we would have heard about it. After all we've heard about everything else.
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So they bought her a flat? The devils!
Wanting to make extra money for herself isn't anything strange and she used what she had - lots of women do that, are they all suffering from 'emotional abuse'?
But she didn't want to undertake the porn modelling. She did so because she was desparate for cash.
Emotional abuse? Economic abuse.
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But she didn't want to undertake the porn modelling. She did so because she was desparate for cash.
Emotional abuse? Economic abuse.
Neither! Lets get this straight, if the Bambers gave their children cash, it's economic abuse, if they don't give them enough - it's economic abuse. This is just clap trap! Sheila clearly didn't ask for any extra money whereas Jeremy wasn't shy in coming forward in that respect. Most kids their age are independent and pay their own rent - they weren't tethered to Nevill and June, Jeremy could have gone and done his own thing - Sheila was more dependent not because of any kind of abuse, but because of her illness - however, pay paying for her flat, they allowed her some independence.
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Neither! Lets get this straight, if the Bambers gave their children cash, it's economic abuse, if they don't give them enough - it's economic abuse. This is just clap trap! Sheila clearly didn't ask for any extra money whereas Jeremy wasn't shy in coming forward in that respect. Most kids their age are independent and pay their own rent - they weren't tethered to Nevill and June, Jeremy could have gone and done his own thing - Sheila was more dependent not because of any kind of abuse, but because of her illness - however, pay paying for her flat, they allowed her some independence.
You seem totally unaware of the complicated relationships which arise within families. Did you not know that some parents use money to coerce their children into doing what their parents want? Did you not know that children can be brain washed into believing that losing their inheritance would be so terrible that anything is better than that? Have you never heard of children whose parents haven't done their job, which is to raise confident, independant children who can cope with life without parental help? I suggest that you educate yourself.
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You seem totally unaware of the complicated relationships which arise within families. Did you not know that some parents use money to coerce their children into doing what their parents want? Did you not know that children can be brain washed into believing that losing their inheritance would be so terrible that anything is better than that? Have you never heard of children whose parents haven't done their job, which is to raise confident, independant children who can cope with life without parental help? I suggest that you educate yourself.
Are you for real? Are you actually making an excuse for Bamber murdering his family under the guise of being brain washed? I thought I had heard it all until NOW!
I suggest you GET REAL!
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Are you for real? Are you actually making an excuse for Bamber murdering his family under the guise of being brain washed? I thought I had heard it all until NOW!
I suggest you GET REAL!
I didn't say anything of the sort, that's your interpretation not mine. Please don't assume you know what I'm saying.
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I didn't say anything of the sort, that's your interpretation not mine. Please don't assume you know what I'm saying.
Kind of makes it difficult to debate with someone who can't make themselves clear, perhaps you would like to clarify your statement in a previous post
"Did you not know that children can be brain washed into believing that losing their inheritance would be so terrible that anything is better than that?"
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There's no evidence that someone else didn't do it. She had a friend who lived nearby - perhaps she did it. There is no evidence that Sheila did her own nails - which you already know.
Sheila used to have her nails manicured in Maida Vale
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But she didn't want to undertake the porn modelling. She did so because she was desparate for cash.
Emotional abuse? Economic abuse.
You have no idea why Sheila had some photos taken of her nude and playing with a sex toy
There’s porn and there’s porn...she wasn’t having orgies. She was alone.
You don’t even know if they were private pictures!
Lots of people have intimate photos of themselves; stop ASSUMING
Whatever, they were Sheila’s PRIVATE photos and vile snooping Jeremy Bamber had NO right to rifle through her personal belongings like a filthy grasping VULTURE!
And after he’d shot her dead!!!
He’s absolutely EVIL and devoid of all DECENCY
It’s DISGUSTING that he studied his sister’s nude photos, then tried to SELL them to the Sun Newspaper!
He’s absolutely EVIL
Ban me if you want, you’ve threatened it before when you don’t like hearing the TRUTH
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Kind of makes it difficult to debate with someone who can't make themselves clear, perhaps you would like to clarify your statement in a previous post
"Did you not know that children can be brain washed into believing that losing their inheritance would be so terrible that anything is better than that?"
I was subjected to it, along with being told that if I hadn't been adopted I would have been in care. Occasionally I was threatened with being put into care. Eventually I responded by deciding that I didn't want the money and I wished I had been put into care. Not everyone is as strong minded as me though.
My point is that what seems generous, caring and loving on the surface isn't always what's happening. Only those involved know the truth. Therefore what an observer thinks happened in the Bamber family may not be what actually happened.
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It looks like some people on here are indulging their favourite pastime, ie: victim blaming. Shame on you who do this, shame on you.
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I was subjected to it, along with being told that if I hadn't been adopted I would have been in care. Occasionally I was threatened with being put into care. Eventually I responded by deciding that I didn't want the money and I wished I had been put into care. Not everyone is as strong minded as me though.
My point is that what seems generous, caring and loving on the surface isn't always what's happening. Only those involved know the truth. Therefore what an observer thinks happened in the Bamber family may not be what actually happened.
Other than making placating noises about it having been awful and sad, no one, not even fellow adoptees, can know what it FEELS like to be a victim of adoption gone wrong, when the victims, themselves, might not be aware of it. Unless one has experienced it, the feeling of total worthlessness, powerlessness, entrapment, and fear isn't easy to convey. Perhaps it will never be know how many have suffered. Whilst the mantra "You're lucky. If it hadn't been for us you'd have been in a home" is drummed into adopted children, they'll keep repeating it. However, as an optimist, I believe there to be more successful adoptions than those of the other kind.
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Other than making placating noises about it having been awful and sad, no one, not even fellow adoptees, can know what it FEELS like to be a victim of adoption gone wrong, when the victims, themselves, might not be aware of it. Unless one has experienced it, the feeling of total worthlessness, powerlessness, entrapment, and fear isn't easy to convey. Perhaps it will never be know how many have suffered. Whilst the mantra "You're lucky. If it hadn't been for us you'd have been in a home" is drummed into adopted children, they'll keep repeating it. However, as an optimist, I believe there to be more successful adoptions than those of the other kind.
I agree, it probably is rare that they go terribly wrong. My point is that looking at what people did doesn't explain why they did it. On the face of it spending money on your children seems like a caring, loving, helpful act, but that might not be what it really was. Even those involved might not have realised if their actions were manipulative rather than helpful.
Anyway, back on topic. I can still see nothing which proves that Nevill Bamber didn't phone his son. The evidence offered in court certainly didn't prove it.
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I agree, it probably is rare that they go terribly wrong. My point is that looking at what people did doesn't explain why they did it. On the face of it spending money on your children seems like a caring, loving, helpful act, but that might not be what it really was. Even those involved might not have realised if their actions were manipulative rather than helpful.
Anyway, back on topic. I can still see nothing which proves that Nevill Bamber didn't phone his son. The evidence offered in court certainly didn't prove it.
Then presumably you don't find it strange that, despite telling police, when he eventually got round to calling them, that his father had "sounded terrified", and later, telling Colin that his father may have already been wounded, he delayed making his call to police for around 20 minutes, instead, phoning Julie, not so much to "hear a friendly voice" -having not yet heard any!- as he claimed, but to give her an update on how things were progressing?
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Then presumably you don't find it strange that, despite telling police, when he eventually got round to calling them, that his father had "sounded terrified", and later, telling Colin that his father may have already been wounded, he delayed making his call to police for around 20 minutes, instead, phoning Julie, not so much to "hear a friendly voice" -having not yet heard any!- as he claimed, but to give her an update on how things were progressing?
It's easy to say I would do this, that and the other when no blueprint exists. Its why organisations spend huge resources on contingency planning. With NB saying 'Sheila's gone crazy she's got the gun' JB did what most would probably do in that he attempted to resume the conversation with NB in an attempt to understand what action he wanted JB to take.
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It's easy to say I would do this, that and the other when no blueprint exists. Its why organisations spend huge resources on contingency planning. With NB saying 'Sheila's gone crazy she's got the gun' JB did what most would probably do in that he attempted to resume the conversation with NB in an attempt to understand what action he wanted JB to take.
I'd have thought,had NB known what action needed to be taken, rather than go through a questionable -in that his call may not be answered- third person, he'd have gone straight to the source of the required action. I do however concur that none of us knows what we'd do until we're in a situation which requires us to do something. Even then, our options are likely to be limited.
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Jeremy Bamber wasn't an organisation, he was an individual who'd received an emergency call from his dad... or so he would like everybody to believe! What most sons would have done is to get their butt over to the farm asap, not faff about phoning a girlfriend in the middle of the night asking for advice, and then fiddle about with a phone book for ten minutes instead of dialling 999.
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Jeremy Bamber wasn't an organisation, he was an individual who'd received an emergency call from his dad... or so he would like everybody to believe! What most sons would have done is to get their butt over to the farm asap, not faff about phoning a girlfriend in the middle of the night asking for advice, and then fiddle about with a phone book for ten minutes instead of dialling 999.
If you created a scenario for a dozen individuals and asked them how they would respond you would probably get a dozen different responses some of which you hadn't even thought of!
If NB wanted the police involved he would have called them himself. He didn't because as JB said he didn't like involving "organisations". NB didn't anticipate the situation escalating and thought he could contain it in-house.
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I agree, it probably is rare that they go terribly wrong. My point is that looking at what people did doesn't explain why they did it. On the face of it spending money on your children seems like a caring, loving, helpful act, but that might not be what it really was. Even those involved might not have realised if their actions were manipulative rather than helpful.
Anyway, back on topic. I can still see nothing which proves that Nevill Bamber didn't phone his son. The evidence offered in court certainly didn't prove it.
The court never discussed it - this is a fairly recent claim.
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Sheila used to have her nails manicured in Maida Vale
Source please along with name of salon and therapist.
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The court never discussed it - this is a fairly recent claim.
?
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If you created a scenario for a dozen individuals and asked them how they would respond you would probably get a dozen different responses some of which you hadn't even thought of!
If NB wanted the police involved he would have called them himself. He didn't because as JB said he didn't like involving "organisations". NB didn't anticipate the situation escalating and thought he could contain it in-house.
Jeremy said? Jeremy said a lot.
If you asked a dozen people, you wouldn't get a dozen different responses and I am sure you would get a significant result in favour of calling the police (using 999) and or going over there.
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The court never discussed it - this is a fairly recent claim.
The call from Nevill to police wasn't mentioned at trial.
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It looks like some people on here are indulging their favourite pastime, ie: victim blaming. Shame on you who do this, shame on you.
No idea what you're talking about.
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No idea what you're talking about.
Blaming the Bambers and accusing them of economic 'abuse'.
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If you created a scenario for a dozen individuals and asked them how they would respond you would probably get a dozen different responses some of which you hadn't even thought of!
If NB wanted the police involved he would have called them himself. He didn't because as JB said he didn't like involving "organisations". NB didn't anticipate the situation escalating and thought he could contain it in-house.
Baloney!!! There are only two possibilties... ring 999 or get over to deal with situation yourself asap.
Nevill didn't call anybody, neither did he get the chance to do so.
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Blaming the Bambers and accusing them of economic 'abuse'.
Wrong thread then.
The Bambers should never have been approved to adopt in the first place.
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Blaming the Bambers and accusing them of economic 'abuse'.
Exactly. It seems the Bambers brought this upon themselves if the arguments on here are anything to go by.
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Exactly. It seems the Bambers brought this upon themselves if the arguments on here are anything to go by.
The Bambers should never have been approved to adopt in the first place.
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Baloney!!! There are only two possibilties... ring 999 or get over to deal with situation yourself asap.
Nevill didn't call anybody, neither did he get the chance to do so.
Someone deciding to call 999 or not isn't capable of determinig innocence or guilt:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/22/ben-ellie-butler-999-call-murder-trial
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The Bambers should never have been approved to adopt in the first place.
Probably like quite a few people who's adopted children didn't go on to murder them.
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Probably like quite a few people who's adopted children didn't go on to murder them.
I've certainly never heard of an adoptive mother having a history of mental health issues on par with June's:
- 1955 - June admitted for psychiatric in-patient care due to her inability to conceive children
- 1957 - The Bamber's adopt SC
- 1959 - June admitted for psychiatric in-patient care due to her decision to adopt. Undergoes ECT.
- Returns to WHF and employs a 17 year old nanny to care for SC
- 1961 - The Bambers adopt JB. The nanny is retained until JB was circa 2 yoa and then taken on as and when required along with au pairs.
I wonder if June had an aversion to toilet training. And we know what Freud had to say about this!
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I've certainly never heard of an adoptive mother having a history of mental health issues on par with June's:
- 1955 - June admitted for psychiatric in-patient care due to her inability to conceive children
- 1957 - The Bamber's adopt SC
- 1959 - June admitted for psychiatric in-patient care due to her decision to adopt. Undergoes ECT.
- Returns to WHF and employs a 17 year old nanny to care for SC
- 1961 - The Bambers adopt JB. The nanny is retained until JB was circa 2 yoa and then taken on as and when required along with au pairs.
I wonder if June had an aversion to toilet training. And we know what Freud had to say about this!
The only reason you're 'hearing about it' is because of the tragedy - why would you hear about others?
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The Bambers should never have been approved to adopt in the first place.
I wonder if the authorities knew about June Bamber's problems?
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The only reason you're 'hearing about it' is because of the tragedy - why would you hear about others?
Do similar cases exist where an adoptee has murdered 3 generations from his/her adoptive family?
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I wonder if the authorities knew about June Bamber's problems?
The adoptions were arranged through the CoE Children's Society so I'm guessing this ie the fact the Bamber's were churchgoers took precedence over the emotional stability of the adoptive parents and whether or not they would make suitable adopters overall.
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Do similar cases exist where an adoptee has murdered 3 generations from his/her adoptive family?
Your signature line seems to put the blame for the murders fair and square on the parents for adopting these children in the first place. Victim blaming in other words. It's very distasteful IMO.
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Your signature line seems to put the blame for the murders fair and square on the parents for adopting these children in the first place. Victim blaming in other words. It's very distasteful IMO.
My tagline:
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy, victims of a poorly arranged closed adoption from the so-called baby-scoop era.
Did the Bamber's arrange and approve themselves as suitable adopters?
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At trial the jury was not told about June's long history of mental illness during the 1950's pre and post adopting SC with the potential for an attachment disorder in SC and a propensity towards suicide, violence, psychopathy and infanticide.
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The adoptions were arranged through the CoE Children's Society so I'm guessing this ie the fact the Bamber's were churchgoers took precedence over the emotional stability of the adoptive parents and whether or not they would make suitable adopters overall.
The attitude towards adopters at the time was that they were rescuing a child from the stigma of b........y. They were offering the child everything it's sinful mother couldn't provide; two parents, a stable home and a Christian upbringing. It's possible that June's illness was known, but was treated sympathetically as it was allegedly due to her childlessness.
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My tagline:
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy, victims of a poorly arranged closed adoption from the so-called baby-scoop era.
Did the Bamber's arrange and approve themselves as suitable adopters?
Presumably they put themselves forward as adopters, as evil and mentally deranged as you obviously think they were!
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The attitude towards adopters at the time was that they were rescuing a child from the stigma of b........y. They were offering the child everything it's sinful mother couldn't provide; two parents, a stable home and a Christian upbringing. It's possible that June's illness was known, but was treated sympathetically as it was allegedly due to her childlessness.
Yes I agree but June was re-admitted for in-patient psychiatric treatment and ECT in 1959 due to her decision to adopt (SC in 1957). Why was SC not removed from the Bamber's care and why were they allowed to adopt JB in 1961?
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Presumably they put themselves forward as adopters, as evil and mentally deranged as you obviously think they were!
Presumably they did put themselves forward as adopters but who approved them?
You are the only one here using terms like evil and mentally deranged to describe the Bamber's.
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Presumably they did put themselves forward as adopters but who approved them?
You are the only one here using terms like evil and mentally deranged to describe the Bamber's.
Ehat terms would you use to describe them? Abusers is one. Mentally ill appears to be another. Anything else?
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Ehat terms would you use to describe them? Abusers is one. Mentally ill appears to be another. Anything else?
Where have I referred to the Bamber's as abusers?
How would you describe a woman with a long history of mental illness requiring in-patient psychiatric care and electro-convulsive treatment dating from 1955 to 1982 and was last diagnosed with psychosis by her psychiatrist?
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Yes I agree but June was re-admitted for in-patient psychiatric treatment and ECT in 1959 due to her decision to adopt (SC in 1957). Why was SC not removed from the Bamber's care and why were they allowed to adopt JB in 1961?
I don't think there was much in the way of follow-up in those days. Once the child was legally theirs they would have been treated just like natural parents. June was also a private patient so it's possible that her doctor was never approached during either process.
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My tagline:
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy, victims of a poorly arranged closed adoption from the so-called baby-scoop era.
Did the Bamber's arrange and approve themselves as suitable adopters?
I imagine, like other would-be adopters, it required a doctor's letter to their chosen adoption society, outlining the couple's reason for adopting. In the Bambers' case, June's infertility. It can't have been unhelpful if the family gp happened to be a personal friend. I don't know if June's past mental health would have been considered in any way, other than that having a child to care for would solve the problem.
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Where have I referred to the Bamber's as abusers?
How would you describe a woman with a long history of mental illness requiring in-patient psychiatric care and electro-convulsive treatment dating from 1955 to 1982 and was last diagnosed with psychosis by her psychiatrist?
Not mentally deranged then? And what is the "economic abuse" thread all about?
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Not mentally deranged then? And what is the "economic abuse" thread all about?
You appear to be the only one here using disparaging terms to describe those inflicted with mental illness.
If you're interested in the 'economic abuse' thread I suggest you pay it a visit.
All views are welcome but please don't attempt to sow discord for the sake of it.
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You appear to be the only one here using disparaging terms to describe those inflicted with mental illness.
If you're interested in the 'economic abuse' thread I suggest you pay it a visit.
All views are welcome but please don't attempt to sow discord for the sake of it.
My view is that you are working hard to portray the victims of this crime in a bad light in order to win people over to your point of view that their murderer is an innocent victim who should have his conviction overturned. I think that is quite reprehensible and I think I should be allowed to express that view without being admonished for “attempting to sow dischord”.
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Yes I agree but June was re-admitted for in-patient psychiatric treatment and ECT in 1959 due to her decision to adopt (SC in 1957). Why was SC not removed from the Bamber's care and why were they allowed to adopt JB in 1961?
Perhaps there was a shortage of "good Christian" prospective parents.
The adoption society may not have known that June had problems, and they probably saw that Sheila looked well fed and happy, and thought that her new parents were doing a good job.
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Perhaps there was a shortage of "good Christian" prospective parents.
The adoption society may not have known that June had problems, and they probably saw that Sheila looked well fed and happy, and thought that her new parents were doing a good job.
If neither the family gp nor June had revealed information regarding her mental health, the adoption society wouldn't have known I'm inclined to think that rather than compromise himself, the doctor would have revealed it as being a nervous breakdown caused by her inability to conceive, something which could be rectified by adoption. It's not impossible that he believed it to be the case.
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My view is that you are working hard to portray the victims of this crime in a bad light in order to win people over to your point of view that their murderer is an innocent victim who should have his conviction overturned. I think that is quite reprehensible and I think I should be allowed to express that view without being admonished for “attempting to sow dischord”.
Examples will assist your argument.
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I don't think there was much in the way of follow-up in those days. Once the child was legally theirs they would have been treated just like natural parents. June was also a private patient so it's possible that her doctor was never approached during either process.
I don't know which doc treated June in the 50's for her breakdowns/depression but given the Bamber's seemed to go private for medical matters and education it was probably private.
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Examples will assist your argument.
Well for a start you blame the crimes on one of of the murder victims. For another you have suggested that the Bambers were controlling and “economically abusive” and that this had a bearing on their outcome. Thirdly you have suggested that June’s state of mind negatively affected her adopted children causing one of them to go berserk and kill everyone in the house. Have I misunderstood?
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Perhaps there was a shortage of "good Christian" prospective parents.
The adoption society may not have known that June had problems, and they probably saw that Sheila looked well fed and happy, and thought that her new parents were doing a good job.
https://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/maternal-depression-can-undermine-the-development-of-young-children/
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Well for a start you blame the crimes on one of of the murder victims. For another you have suggested that the Bambers were controlling and “economically abusive” and that this had a bearing on their outcome. Thirdly you have suggested that June’s state of mind negatively affected her adopted children causing one of them to go berserk and kill everyone in the house. Have I misunderstood?
The perp was one of two JB or SC. Initially all concerned thought SC responsible. If SC was responsible then she was no doubt in some altered state of mind bound up with her long history of mental illness.
I think June probably was economically abusive as per all the literature but I've never suggested this had any sort of bearing on the murders.
All the research suggests June's mental health issues negatively affected SC with the potential to cause an attachment disorder, propensity for suicide, psychopathy, violence and filicide.
What exactly do you find reprehensible about the above?
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The perp was one of two JB or SC. Initially all concerned thought SC responsible. If SC was responsible then she was no doubt in some altered state of mind bound up with her long history of mental illness.
I think June probably was economically abusive as per all the literature but I've never suggested this had any sort of bearing on the murders.
All the research suggests June's mental health issues negatively affected SC with the potential to cause an attachment disorder, propensity for suicide, psychopathy, violence and filicide.
What exactly do you find reprehensible about the above?
If you can’t see what’s reprehensible about it then there’s no point me trying to explain.
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Well for a start you blame the crimes on one of of the murder victims. For another you have suggested that the Bambers were controlling and “economically abusive” and that this had a bearing on their outcome. Thirdly you have suggested that June’s state of mind negatively affected her adopted children causing one of them to go berserk and kill everyone in the house. Have I misunderstood?
So, are you saying that because someone was a victim, they have to have been whiter than white, and nothing should ever be said against them?
It does occur to me that perhaps some people (not just on this forum) might think Jeremy is guilty because they do not want to have to blame Sheila.
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So, are you saying that because someone was a victim, they have to have been whiter than white, and nothing should ever be said against them?
It does occur to me that perhaps some people (not just on this forum) might think Jeremy is guilty because they do not want to have to blame Sheila.
Well you can count me out of that and I doubt anyone who thinks Bamber is guilty, does so on that basis.
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So, are you saying that because someone was a victim, they have to have been whiter than white, and nothing should ever be said against them?
It does occur to me that perhaps some people (not just on this forum) might think Jeremy is guilty because they do not want to have to blame Sheila.
Jeremy IS guilty and therefore blaming his victims (whether whiter than white or fallible human beings) is an extremely unpleasant (some might say despicable) pastime for busybodies to indulge in on the internet. IMO.
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Jeremy IS guilty and therefore blaming his victims (whether whiter than white or fallible human beings) is an extremely unpleasant (some might say despicable) pastime for busybodies to indulge in on the internet. IMO.
A jury found Jeremy Bamber guilty, but does that mean he IS guilty? Which bit of the evidence convinced you that was true?
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A jury found Jeremy Bamber guilty, but does that mean he IS guilty? Which bit of the evidence convinced you that was true?
This bit
151. The prosecution relied upon the following areas of evidence:
i) The appellant's expressed dislike of his family;
ii) His speaking of his plans to kill his family and thereafter his confessions to his girlfriend, Julie Mugford;
iii) The finding of his mother's bicycle at Goldhanger;
iv) The appellant's admitted ability to effect covert entry into and exit from the farmhouse and the finding of the hacksaw blade outside the bathroom window. His claim to have entered the house in that way after the first arrest was an attempt to explain these findings;
v) Because on the facts of the case it could only have been the appellant or Sheila Caffell who carried out the killings, the factors below proved they were not the responsibility of the appellant's sister:
a) Although seriously mentally ill, there had been no indication of any deterioration in her mental health in the days before the killings. Neither had she expressed any recent suicidal thoughts and the expert evidence was that she would not have harmed her children or her father;
b) Save for the appellant nobody had seen her use a gun and she had no interest in them. Sheila Caffell also had very poor co-ordination and would not have been capable of loading and operating the rifle nor would she have had the required knowledge to do so;
c) She would not have been able physically to have overcome her father (who was fit, strong and 6' 4" tall) during the struggle which undoubtedly took place before his death in the kitchen;
d) Her hands and feet were clean. They were not blood stained and neither was there any sugar upon them;
e) Hand swabs from her body did not reveal the levels of lead to be expected in somebody who must have re-loaded the magazine of the gun on at least two occasions; and
f) Her clothing was relatively clean and she was not injured in the way that might be expected of somebody involved in a struggle. Her long fingernails were still intact and undamaged.
vi) The sound moderator had on any view been attached to the rifle during the fight with Nevill Bamber in the kitchen. But if Sheila Caffell had committed suicide it must have been removed before she shot herself. The following aspects of the evidence established it was still in place on the gun when the appellant's sister was murdered:
a) The blood grouping analysis proved (on the particular facts of the case) that Sheila Caffell's blood was inside the moderator; and
b) Had the appellant's sister murdered the other members of her family with the moderator attached to the gun and then discovered she could not reach the trigger to kill herself, the moderator would have been found next to her body. There would have been no reason for her to have removed it and returned it to the gun cupboard before going back upstairs to commit suicide in her parents' room.
vii) The appellant's account of the telephone call from his father could be proved to be false for the following reasons:
a) His father was too badly injured to have spoken to anybody;
b) The telephone in the kitchen was not obviously blood stained;
c) As a matter of common sense, Nevill Bamber would have called the police before the appellant;
d) Had the appellant really received such a call, he would have immediately made a 999 call, alerted the farm workers who lived close to the farmhouse and then driven at speed to his parents home; and
e) Instead he had spoken to Julie Mugford before calling the police. When he subsequently contacted the Police, it was not by way of the emergency system.
viii) He stood to inherit considerable sums of money.
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Well you can count me out of that and I doubt anyone who thinks Bamber is guilty, does so on that basis.
I never counted you in, Caroline!
However, I have come across several people in another discussion group (no, not the "Blue Forum") who describe themselves as being "pro Sheila" or "on Sheila's side", and therefore, by default, have to believe Jeremy is guilty. Some of them are by no means sure. Interesting really----------
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I never counted you in, Caroline!
However, I have come across several people in another discussion group (no, not the "Blue Forum") who describe themselves as being "pro Sheila" or "on Sheila's side", and therefore, by default, have to believe Jeremy is guilty. Some of them are by no means sure. Interesting really----------
8((()*/
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If you can’t see what’s reprehensible about it then there’s no point me trying to explain.
By your own admission you know very little about the case. You haven't carried out any independent research and have simply gone along with the official line believing JB guilty as charged.
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This bit
151. The prosecution relied upon the following areas of evidence:
i) The appellant's expressed dislike of his family;
ii) His speaking of his plans to kill his family and thereafter his confessions to his girlfriend, Julie Mugford;
iii) The finding of his mother's bicycle at Goldhanger;
iv) The appellant's admitted ability to effect covert entry into and exit from the farmhouse and the finding of the hacksaw blade outside the bathroom window. His claim to have entered the house in that way after the first arrest was an attempt to explain these findings;
v) Because on the facts of the case it could only have been the appellant or Sheila Caffell who carried out the killings, the factors below proved they were not the responsibility of the appellant's sister:
a) Although seriously mentally ill, there had been no indication of any deterioration in her mental health in the days before the killings. Neither had she expressed any recent suicidal thoughts and the expert evidence was that she would not have harmed her children or her father;
b) Save for the appellant nobody had seen her use a gun and she had no interest in them. Sheila Caffell also had very poor co-ordination and would not have been capable of loading and operating the rifle nor would she have had the required knowledge to do so;
c) She would not have been able physically to have overcome her father (who was fit, strong and 6' 4" tall) during the struggle which undoubtedly took place before his death in the kitchen;
d) Her hands and feet were clean. They were not blood stained and neither was there any sugar upon them;
e) Hand swabs from her body did not reveal the levels of lead to be expected in somebody who must have re-loaded the magazine of the gun on at least two occasions; and
f) Her clothing was relatively clean and she was not injured in the way that might be expected of somebody involved in a struggle. Her long fingernails were still intact and undamaged.
vi) The sound moderator had on any view been attached to the rifle during the fight with Nevill Bamber in the kitchen. But if Sheila Caffell had committed suicide it must have been removed before she shot herself. The following aspects of the evidence established it was still in place on the gun when the appellant's sister was murdered:
a) The blood grouping analysis proved (on the particular facts of the case) that Sheila Caffell's blood was inside the moderator; and
b) Had the appellant's sister murdered the other members of her family with the moderator attached to the gun and then discovered she could not reach the trigger to kill herself, the moderator would have been found next to her body. There would have been no reason for her to have removed it and returned it to the gun cupboard before going back upstairs to commit suicide in her parents' room.
vii) The appellant's account of the telephone call from his father could be proved to be false for the following reasons:
a) His father was too badly injured to have spoken to anybody;
b) The telephone in the kitchen was not obviously blood stained;
c) As a matter of common sense, Nevill Bamber would have called the police before the appellant;
d) Had the appellant really received such a call, he would have immediately made a 999 call, alerted the farm workers who lived close to the farmhouse and then driven at speed to his parents home; and
e) Instead he had spoken to Julie Mugford before calling the police. When he subsequently contacted the Police, it was not by way of the emergency system.
viii) He stood to inherit considerable sums of money.
But have you carried out any independent research to verify the prosecution case above?
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Jeremy IS guilty and therefore blaming his victims (whether whiter than white or fallible human beings) is an extremely unpleasant (some might say despicable) pastime for busybodies to indulge in on the internet. IMO.
The fact someone is found guilty in a court of law doesn't make the verdict factually correct. If it did we wouldn't have MoJ's?
In this case the defence and prosecution agreed at trial the perp was either JB or SC and no other possibility existed. So for those of us who believe JB is the victim of a moj by definition we believe SC responsible. A viewed shared by 2 of the 12 jurors.
I find your othet comments melo-dramatic.
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By your own admission you know very little about the case. You haven't carried out any independent research and have simply gone along with the official line believing JB guilty as charged.
Swirl answered the question and clearly understands enough of the facts, to have formed his own opinion. I don't know where Independent research would come into it. It's real blue peter badge stuff. Now Bamber's campaign team are claiming that the anschutz fired indoors sounds as faint as mere "handclap"
Her majesty versus bamber http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html (http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html)
It's all there and the jury got it right the first time. These are the irrefutable facts of the prosecution.
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The fact someone is found guilty in a court of law doesn't make the verdict factually correct. If it did we wouldn't have MoJ's?
In this case the defence and prosecution agreed at trial the perp was either JB or SC and no other possibility existed. So for those of us who believe JB is the victim of a moj by definition we believe SC responsible. A viewed shared by 2 of the 12 jurors. [b/]
I find your othet comments melo-dramatic.
Not shared by 10 of the 12 is the relevant point.
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Swirl answered the question and clearly understands enough of the facts, to have formed his own opinion. I don't know where Independent research would come into it. It's real blue peter badge stuff. Now Bamber's campaign team are claiming that the anschutz fired indoors sounds as faint as mere "handclap"
Her majesty versus bamber http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html (http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html)
It's all there and the jury got it right the first time. These are the irrefutable facts of the prosecution.
Copying and pasting the prosecution case does not make JB guilty. No more than it would make JB innocent if I copied and pasted the defence case. Many of the facts you claim are irrefutable have already been refuted. The third appeal will be devastating for the prosecution resulting in an acquittal.
Why speculate about the noise level from the muzzle blast with and without silencer, or attempt to use crude methods eg sound of a handclap, when it can be accurately measured by way of decibels?
And why were jurors taken to the firing range at Fingringhoe to hear the difference in sound, which would have sounded altogether different from the soc anyway, and yet not taken to WHF to see for themselves whether or not it was possible for JB to exit the window it is claimed he left via and in doing so was able to secure it closed from outside?
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Copying and pasting the prosecution case does not make JB guilty. No more than it would make JB innocent if I copied and pasted the defence case. Many of the facts you claim are irrefutable have already been refuted. The third appeal will be devastating for the prosecution resulting in an acquittal.
Why speculate about the noise level from the muzzle blast with and without silencer, or attempt to use crude methods eg sound of a handclap, when it can be accurately measured by way of decibels?
And why were jurors taken to the firing range at Fingringhoe to hear the difference in sound, which would have sounded altogether different from the soc anyway, and yet not taken to WHF to see for themselves whether or not it was possible for JB to exit the window it is claimed he left via and in doing so was able to secure it closed from outside?
What is the damning new piece of evidence not produced at the trial and in previous unsuccessful appeals?
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By your own admission you know very little about the case. You haven't carried out any independent research and have simply gone along with the official line believing JB guilty as charged.
I haven’t done any “independent research” on whether man landed on the moon or whether the Jews were behind 9/11 or whether Fusilier Lee Rigby ever existed. I have read enough about all these cases but I don’t feel the need to immerse myself in irrelevant minutiae to prove that the official versions are correct. I find your hobby pointless and cruel tbh. What do you hope to achieve apart from causing pain and suffering to those left behind?
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What is the damning new piece of evidence not produced at the trial and in previous unsuccessful appeals?
I believe it is a piece of straw, hot and clammy from being clutched so tightly.
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This bit
151. The prosecution relied upon the following areas of evidence:
i) The appellant's expressed dislike of his family;
ii) His speaking of his plans to kill his family and thereafter his confessions to his girlfriend, Julie Mugford;
iii) The finding of his mother's bicycle at Goldhanger;
iv) The appellant's admitted ability to effect covert entry into and exit from the farmhouse and the finding of the hacksaw blade outside the bathroom window. His claim to have entered the house in that way after the first arrest was an attempt to explain these findings;
v) Because on the facts of the case it could only have been the appellant or Sheila Caffell who carried out the killings, the factors below proved they were not the responsibility of the appellant's sister:
a) Although seriously mentally ill, there had been no indication of any deterioration in her mental health in the days before the killings. Neither had she expressed any recent suicidal thoughts and the expert evidence was that she would not have harmed her children or her father;
b) Save for the appellant nobody had seen her use a gun and she had no interest in them. Sheila Caffell also had very poor co-ordination and would not have been capable of loading and operating the rifle nor would she have had the required knowledge to do so;
c) She would not have been able physically to have overcome her father (who was fit, strong and 6' 4" tall) during the struggle which undoubtedly took place before his death in the kitchen;
d) Her hands and feet were clean. They were not blood stained and neither was there any sugar upon them;
e) Hand swabs from her body did not reveal the levels of lead to be expected in somebody who must have re-loaded the magazine of the gun on at least two occasions; and
f) Her clothing was relatively clean and she was not injured in the way that might be expected of somebody involved in a struggle. Her long fingernails were still intact and undamaged.
vi) The sound moderator had on any view been attached to the rifle during the fight with Nevill Bamber in the kitchen. But if Sheila Caffell had committed suicide it must have been removed before she shot herself. The following aspects of the evidence established it was still in place on the gun when the appellant's sister was murdered:
a) The blood grouping analysis proved (on the particular facts of the case) that Sheila Caffell's blood was inside the moderator; and
b) Had the appellant's sister murdered the other members of her family with the moderator attached to the gun and then discovered she could not reach the trigger to kill herself, the moderator would have been found next to her body. There would have been no reason for her to have removed it and returned it to the gun cupboard before going back upstairs to commit suicide in her parents' room.
vii) The appellant's account of the telephone call from his father could be proved to be false for the following reasons:
a) His father was too badly injured to have spoken to anybody;
b) The telephone in the kitchen was not obviously blood stained;
c) As a matter of common sense, Nevill Bamber would have called the police before the appellant;
d) Had the appellant really received such a call, he would have immediately made a 999 call, alerted the farm workers who lived close to the farmhouse and then driven at speed to his parents home; and
e) Instead he had spoken to Julie Mugford before calling the police. When he subsequently contacted the Police, it was not by way of the emergency system.
viii) He stood to inherit considerable sums of money.
I have only looked in depth at this evidence;
vii) The appellant's account of the telephone call from his father could be proved to be false for the following reasons:
a) His father was too badly injured to have spoken to anybody;
I have seen no reason why his father couldn't have used the telephone before he had sustained any injuries. This also answers point b)
b) The telephone in the kitchen was not obviously blood stained;
c) As a matter of common sense, Nevill Bamber would have called the police before the appellant;
There is a possibility that Nevill did call the police.
d) Had the appellant really received such a call, he would have immediately made a 999 call, alerted the farm workers who lived close to the farmhouse and then driven at speed to his parents home; and
e) Instead he had spoken to Julie Mugford before calling the police. When he subsequently contacted the Police, it was not by way of the emergency system.
How can anyone know what someone's reaction would be? If indeed Nevill did call the police he didn't call 999 either.
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It appears that Bamber’s bombshell new evidence is that a rifle was seen poking out of a window when he and a whole bunch of policemen were positioned outside WHF, too afraid to enter in case the murderer was still at large. If this is true, how does Bamber account for the fact that neither of the final two gunshots (made without a silencer) was heard by any of those in attendance?
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What is the damning new piece of evidence not produced at the trial and in previous unsuccessful appeals?
Plural/pieces
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What is the damning new piece of evidence not produced at the trial and in previous unsuccessful appeals?
There isn't any. The only reason Bamber keeps this going is that he is scared of being forgotten, he craves attention. His natural family don't want anything to do with him nor do his adoptive cousins. He is a sad lonely excuse for a man.
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I haven’t done any “independent research” on whether man landed on the moon or whether the Jews were behind 9/11 or whether Fusilier Lee Rigby ever existed. I have read enough about all these cases but I don’t feel the need to immerse myself in irrelevant minutiae to prove that the official versions are correct. I find your hobby pointless and cruel tbh. What do you hope to achieve apart from causing pain and suffering to those left behind?
Please desist with the melo-drama. If your sensibilities are so affected by those of us who either consider JB a moj or think he could be then please look away.
Man on moon/9/11/ Death of Lee Rugby were all witnessed by numerous others and the official version of events maintained throughout. The murders at WHF have no surviving witnesses to them and the official version of events from day 1 was murder/suicide. Even an independent review some 3/4 weeks later concluded murder/suicide. The relatives, who went on to inherit the Bamber estate, were allowed to exert influence over the direction of the investigation and investigators.
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Please desist with the melo-drama. If your sensibilities are so affected by those of us who either consider JB a moj or think he could be then please look away.
Man on moon/9/11/ Death of Lee Rugby were all witnessed by numerous others and the official version of events maintained throughout. The murders at WHF have no surviving witnesses to them and the official version of events from day 1 was murder/suicide. Even an independent review some 3/4 weeks later concluded murder/suicide. The relatives, who went on to inherit the Bamber estate, were allowed to exert influence over the direction of the investigation and investigators.
That's a pretty weak excuse if you don't mind me saying so.
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There isn't any. The only reason Bamber keeps this going is that he is scared of being forgotten, he craves attention. His natural family don't want anything to do with him nor do his adoptive cousins. He is a sad lonely excuse for a man.
How would you know?
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That's a pretty weak excuse if you don't mind me saying so.
What is?
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It appears that Bamber’s bombshell new evidence is that a rifle was seen poking out of a window when he and a whole bunch of policemen were positioned outside WHF, too afraid to enter in case the murderer was still at large. If this is true, how does Bamber account for the fact that neither of the final two gunshots (made without a silencer) was heard by any of those in attendance?
I didn't think you believed Bamber so why are you quoting him?
If anyone wants to understand the case properly I would recommend giving JB and his so-called Campaign Team a very wide berth. Try forensic text books instead.
In terms of the final two shots as they were contact the muzzle against the skin will act as a natural suppressor absorbing the muzzle blast.
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I have only looked in depth at this evidence;
vii) The appellant's account of the telephone call from his father could be proved to be false for the following reasons:
a) His father was too badly injured to have spoken to anybody;
I have seen no reason why his father couldn't have used the telephone before he had sustained any injuries. This also answers point b)
b) The telephone in the kitchen was not obviously blood stained;
c) As a matter of common sense, Nevill Bamber would have called the police before the appellant;
There is a possibility that Nevill did call the police.
d) Had the appellant really received such a call, he would have immediately made a 999 call, alerted the farm workers who lived close to the farmhouse and then driven at speed to his parents home; and
e) Instead he had spoken to Julie Mugford before calling the police. When he subsequently contacted the Police, it was not by way of the emergency system.
How can anyone know what someone's reaction would be? If indeed Nevill did call the police he didn't call 999 either.
Anyone wishing to understand the case properly needs to take on your tagline:
Accept nothing
Believe no-one
Confirm everything
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Please desist with the melo-drama. If your sensibilities are so affected by those of us who either consider JB a moj or think he could be then please look away.
Man on moon/9/11/ Death of Lee Rugby were all witnessed by numerous others and the official version of events maintained throughout. The murders at WHF have no surviving witnesses to them and the official version of events from day 1 was murder/suicide. Even an independent review some 3/4 weeks later concluded murder/suicide. The relatives, who went on to inherit the Bamber estate, were allowed to exert influence over the direction of the investigation and investigators.
That's why a reconstruction wouldn't be valid in this case. Any witness that comes forward potentially exerts influence.
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I didn't think you believed Bamber so why are you quoting him?
If anyone wants to understand the case properly I would recommend giving JB and his so-called Campaign Team a very wide berth. Try forensic text books instead.
In terms of the final two shots as they were contact the muzzle against the skin will act as a natural suppressor absorbing the muzzle blast.
That's kind of like saying, if you want to understand an illness, don't bother going to the GP, get yourself a medical text book. If Bamber doesn't know about the case, then no one does. Why do you imagine that police need to speak to witnesses? From your point of view, they are a waste of time and basically, just get in the way. Reading the scene is open to interpretation - too many episodes of Silent Witness maybe?
As for the noise of the final two shots - the window was open and the officers outside were on high alert.
By the way, your faith in the notion that Sheila's head was propped upright against the cabinet is not supported by the evidence of the blood that has ran from her mouth and into her eye. Her head would have needed to be flat - so the officer was mistaken. Have to give David on the Blue forum the credit for mentioning this (although it pains).
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That's why a reconstruction wouldn't be valid in this case. Any witness that comes forward potentially exerts influence.
On the contrary, a shooting reconstruction is based on the physical evidence captured, documented and photographed at soc.
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That's kind of like saying, if you want to understand an illness, don't bother going to the GP, get yourself a medical text book. If Bamber doesn't know about the case, then no one does. Why do you imagine that police need to speak to witnesses? From your point of view, they are a waste of time and basically, just get in the way. Reading the scene is open to interpretation - too many episodes of Silent Witness maybe?
I see it as more analogous to having two consultations with experts and making an informed choice between the two. Eg you can take on board Malcolm Fletcher's trial testimony whereby he claims the drawback phenomenon was almost certain to occur or you can go with Dr Vincent Di Maio that in a high % of cases contact wounds do not result in blood presenting in or on the barrel.
As for the noise of the final two shots - the window was open and the officers outside were on high alert.
SC may have shot herself before the police arrived and if she didn't the officers were unlikely to hear the sound of gunshot from a. 22 with subsonic ammo and contact wounds. Plus they were not standing directly under the 1st floor window but some distance back.
By the way, your faith in the notion that Sheila's head was propped upright against the cabinet is not supported by the evidence of the blood that has ran from her mouth and into her eye. Her head would have needed to be flat - so the officer was mistaken. Have to give David on the Blue forum the credit for mentioning this (although it pains).
Now who's deviating from expert opinion? I'll stick with forensic scientist Dr Ismail thanks over yourself and David.
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I didn't think you believed Bamber so why are you quoting him?
If anyone wants to understand the case properly I would recommend giving JB and his so-called Campaign Team a very wide berth. Try forensic text books instead.
In terms of the final two shots as they were contact the muzzle against the skin will act as a natural suppressor absorbing the muzzle blast.
Where did I quote him? I did not! I find it incredible that two shots from a shotgun fired even at close quarters would have not produced any noise audible to those many individuals surrounding the house. I suppose after the first shot Sheila also managed not to scream out in agony either - how very unfortunate for Jeremy.
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Please desist with the melo-drama. If your sensibilities are so affected by those of us who either consider JB a moj or think he could be then please look away.
Man on moon/9/11/ Death of Lee Rugby were all witnessed by numerous others and the official version of events maintained throughout. The murders at WHF have no surviving witnesses to them and the official version of events from day 1 was murder/suicide. Even an independent review some 3/4 weeks later concluded murder/suicide. The relatives, who went on to inherit the Bamber estate, were allowed to exert influence over the direction of the investigation and investigators.
The murders at WHF do have one surviving witness and he’s behind bars where he belongs.
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I see it as more analogous to having two consultations with experts and making an informed choice between the two. Eg you can take on board Malcolm Fletcher's trial testimony whereby he claims the drawback phenomenon was almost certain to occur or you can go with Dr Vincent Di Maio that in a high % of cases contact wounds do not result in blood presenting in or on the barrel.
SC may have shot herself before the police arrived and if she didn't the officers were unlikely to hear the sound of gunshot from a. 22 with subsonic ammo and contact wounds. Plus they were not standing directly under the 1st floor window but some distance back.
Now who's deviating from expert opinion? I'll stick with forensic scientist Dr Ismail thanks over yourself and David.
If she shot herself before the police arrived then that surely makes a nonsense of Bamber’s latest alibi ruse.
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Where did I quote him? I did not! I find it incredible that two shots from a shotgun fired even at close quarters would have not produced any noise audible to those many individuals surrounding the house. I suppose after the first shot Sheila also managed not to scream out in agony either - how very unfortunate for Jeremy.
The murder weapon was a. 22 rifle with subsonic ammo not a shotgun. May I suggest you at least familiarise yourself with the basics.
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The murder weapon was a. 22 rifle with subsonic ammo not a shotgun. May I suggest you at least familiarise yourself with the basics.
Don’t patronise me. I thought you were keen to recruit newbies to the case. Are we not allowed to comment until we pass a basic test?
Do these guns not make a noise?
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I see it as more analogous to having two consultations with experts and making an informed choice between the two. Eg you can take on board Malcolm Fletcher's trial testimony whereby he claims the drawback phenomenon was almost certain to occur or you can go with Dr Vincent Di Maio that in a high % of cases contact wounds do not result in blood presenting in or on the barrel.
SC may have shot herself before the police arrived and if she didn't the officers were unlikely to hear the sound of gunshot from a. 22 with subsonic ammo and contact wounds. Plus they were not standing directly under the 1st floor window but some distance back.
Now who's deviating from expert opinion? I'll stick with forensic scientist Dr Ismail thanks over yourself and David.
Either way, it's an 'opinion'.
I don't think they were unlikely to hear the shot at all - but then again - it's an opinion.
However, the notion that Sheila's head remained upright after she was shot, isn't an opinion the blood trail PROVE her head was flat. Were her head still upright, blood would have ran down her chin and the blood fro, her nose could NOT have pooled in her eye - unless you want to argue against the laws of gravity? I don't believe I mentioned Ismail? I said the officer who claimed her her was upright must have been mistaken, the fact that he noticed the woulds under her chin are also evidence of this. We have the CS photo Holly it's no good dimissing something simply because it doesn't fit with your theories.
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Don’t patronise me. I thought you were keen to recruit newbies to the case. Are we not allowed to comment until we pass a basic test?
Do these guns not make a noise?
Yes they do https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo
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Don’t patronise me. I thought you were keen to recruit newbies to the case. Are we not allowed to comment until we pass a basic test?
Do these guns not make a noise?
Only when they believe in the Holy Godhead.
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https://youtu.be/_S9U_ljZpts
1 minute 50.
Even the actor playing Nevill looks unconvincing when speaking to Jeremy.
Not sure why he didn't say 'please come over, Sheila's gone crazy and she's got the gun'. That is what Nevill said.
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"He was in a state of traumatic shock"... https://youtu.be/_S9U_ljZpts?t=273 (https://youtu.be/_S9U_ljZpts?t=273)
Incredible how the gullible are so easily fooled.
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"He was in a state of traumatic shock"... https://youtu.be/_S9U_ljZpts?t=273 (https://youtu.be/_S9U_ljZpts?t=273)
Incredible how the gullible are so easily fooled.
At that time, there was nothing for him to be in traumatic shock about.
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"He was in a state of traumatic shock"... https://youtu.be/_S9U_ljZpts?t=273 (https://youtu.be/_S9U_ljZpts?t=273)
Incredible how the gullible are so easily fooled.
2;30 in,reporter said there had been reports of shots,who reported this,Nevill didn't,according to Bamber he (Nevill) said she had gone crazy with the gun,no mention of any shooting.Did Bamber at any time say that there had been shots fired,if so how did he know?
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2;30 in,reporter said there had been reports of shots,who reported this,Nevill didn't,according to Bamber he (Nevill) said she had gone crazy with the gun,no mention of any shooting.Did Bamber at any time say that there had been shots fired,if so how did he know?
The reporter was mistaken, evidence of Chinese whispers. No-one, including Bamber himself, heard or mentioned any sound resembling gun fire.
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The reporter was mistaken, evidence of Chinese whispers. No-one, including Bamber himself, heard or mentioned any sound resembling gun fire.
Thanks,that's what I thought,so why did armed police turn up? was it purely on the say so of Bambers words supposedly quoting Nevill that Sheila had gone crazy with the gun.
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Thanks,that's what I thought,so why did armed police turn up? was it purely on the say so of Bambers words supposedly quoting Nevill that Sheila had gone crazy with the gun.
Yes. The decision was based on Jeremy Bamber's phone call to Chelmsford police HQ.
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Thanks,that's what I thought,so why did armed police turn up? was it purely on the say so of Bambers words supposedly quoting Nevill that Sheila had gone crazy with the gun.
Yes, it was Sgt. Chris Bews decision to call in the TFU on hearing Bamber's BS.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/197577/Jeremy-Bamber-is-a-murderer-I-know-it (https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/197577/Jeremy-Bamber-is-a-murderer-I-know-it)
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Thanks,that's what I thought,so why did armed police turn up? was it purely on the say so of Bambers words supposedly quoting Nevill that Sheila had gone crazy with the gun.
Yes the mention of a gun AND when PS Bews and PC Myall did a reccee of the farmhouse with JB, PSBews thought he saw movement at the bedroom window. This was subsequently written off as a 'trick of the light'. Firearms officers were then called out.
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Yes, it was Sgt. Chris Bews decision to call in the TFU on hearing Bamber's BS.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/197577/Jeremy-Bamber-is-a-murderer-I-know-it (https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/197577/Jeremy-Bamber-is-a-murderer-I-know-it)
It wasn't DCI Jones who concluded murder/suicide it was Chief Sup George Harris who was one of the first in after firearms left.
With regard to JB's state I prefer to rely on the police surgeon who was tasked with assessing JB and said in his opinion he was in a state of shock.
And PS Bews' claim that evidence was lost as soc was written off as murder/suicide is wrong. Everything of evidential value was collected, documented and sent to FSS. The only exception being the items the relatives found ie silencer and scratches on mantle.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=157.msg1746#msg1746
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It wasn't DCI Jones who concluded murder/suicide it was Chief Sup George Harris who was one of the first in after firearms left.
With regard to JB's state I prefer to rely on the police surgeon who was tasked with assessing JB and said in his opinion he was in a state of shock.
And PS Bews' claim that evidence was lost as soc was written off as murder/suicide is wrong. Everything of evidential value was collected, documented and sent to FSS. The only exception being the items the relatives found ie silencer and scratches on mantle.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=157.msg1746#msg1746
Why would Dr Craig think anything else? I doubt he's used to people faking and acting grief so he takes them on face value.
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It wasn't DCI Jones who concluded murder/suicide it was Chief Sup George Harris who was one of the first in after firearms left.
With regard to JB's state I prefer to rely on the police surgeon who was tasked with assessing JB and said in his opinion he was in a state of shock.
And PS Bews' claim that evidence was lost as soc was written off as murder/suicide is wrong. Everything of evidential value was collected, documented and sent to FSS. The only exception being the items the relatives found ie silencer and scratches on mantle.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=157.msg1746#msg1746
We were once discouraged from placing too much reliance on what Dr Craig had to say on the grounds that he was allegedly too dependent on alcohol. That being the case, is it possible that his assessment of Jeremy's shock/ grief was less than accurate?
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Jeremy IS guilty and therefore blaming his victims (whether whiter than white or fallible human beings) is an extremely unpleasant (some might say despicable) pastime for busybodies to indulge in on the internet. IMO.
Off topic, I know, but just thought I'd say that I have started a thread on "victim blaming" in the Wide Awake area.
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We were once discouraged from placing too much reliance on what Dr Craig had to say on the grounds that he was allegedly too dependent on alcohol. That being the case, is it possible that his assessment of Jeremy's shock/ grief was less than accurate?
Given that he was at the scene of five deaths and the only surviving member of the family looked upset, what reason would he have to think is was anything else other than genuine?
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Given that he was at the scene of five deaths and the only surviving member of the family looked upset, what reason would he have to think is was anything else other than genuine?
None whatsoever.....................with or without alcohol!!!
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Plural/pieces
The official police line initially was murder/suicide was it not,I therefore presume the coroner in releasing the bodies post haste for cremation was in agreement.So what is it you think that they would have with held in evidence from the defence team? if anything it would be unobtainable for the prosecution.
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Plural/pieces
Something The A Team has cobbled?
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Why would Dr Craig think anything else? I doubt he's used to people faking and acting grief so he takes them on face value.
He was a police surgeon of long experience in addition to running a local general practice and elected president of the police surgeons association. He no doubt had a lot of experience in having to be the bearer of bad news and deal with the fall-out. You would also hope that someone in such a position would have extremely good interpersonal skills/emotional intelligence in judging what was going on in terms of people's body language etc.
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We were once discouraged from placing too much reliance on what Dr Craig had to say on the grounds that he was allegedly too dependent on alcohol. That being the case, is it possible that his assessment of Jeremy's shock/ grief was less than accurate?
I take no notice of gossip and hearsay. Is there any evidence he was disciplined or patients complained to the general medical council?
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The official police line initially was murder/suicide was it not,I therefore presume the coroner in releasing the bodies post haste for cremation was in agreement.So what is it you think that they would have with held in evidence from the defence team? if anything it would be unobtainable for the prosecution.
The pathologist carried out complete pm's on all victims. What do you think he overlooked? I would point out he was at one time a guest on Desert Island discs.
The fact SC's body was moved by those at soc pre soc images taken was withheld from the defence. Also blood test results on the bible have never been made available.
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But Dr. V didn't play Jem's favourite toon - "Full Sutton Prison Blues" by Johnny 'Give-us-some' Cash...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p009491v (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p009491v)
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I take no notice of gossip and hearsay. Is there any evidence he was disciplined or patients complained to the general medical council?
The person responsible for delivering the information was one of his patients, other than that, as I'm not in that area, I can't say. However, I most emphatically do know that back then, doctors were at patients' beck and call well after surgery hours and a large drink or three was part of their diet and the drink/drive laws weren't as stringent as they are now.
I also don't believe that the absence of evidence denotes innocence. I also think it's perfectly reasonable for him to assume, as Jeremy was the only family member left alive after the others had been slaughtered, that he was in shock.
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The pathologist carried out complete pm's on all victims. What do you think he overlooked? I would point out he was at one time a guest on Desert Island discs.
The fact SC's body was moved by those at soc pre soc images taken was withheld from the defence. Also blood test results on the bible have never been made available.
I don't think he overlooked any thing,you are the one with a conspiracy that is to keep Bamber in prison,I'm pointing out he was more than likely happy with the initial synopsis,but having said that,they are not there to investigate,thats up to detective's,which thankfully Stan Jones did.When were the results of the bible test's known?
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The pathologist carried out complete pm's on all victims. What do you think he overlooked? I would point out he was at one time a guest on Desert Island discs.
The fact SC's body was moved by those at soc pre soc images taken was withheld from the defence. Also blood test results on the bible have never been made available.
Does appearing on desert island disc carry some kind of kudos?
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Does appearing on desert island disc carry some kind of kudos?
Possibly. Another guest was HRH The Princess Margaret, The Countess of Snowdon!!!!!
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I don't think he overlooked any thing,you are the one with a conspiracy that is to keep Bamber in prison,I'm pointing out he was more than likely happy with the initial synopsis,but having said that,they are not there to investigate,thats up to detective's,which thankfully Stan Jones did.When were the results of the bible test's known?
Do miscarriages of justice have to involve a conspiracy?
The initial synopsis was murder/suicide and Dr Vanezis found nothing to contradict this. Plus he states all four officers present throughout the pm's were proceeding with murder/suicide.
All blood stained exhibuts were tested and the results made known to the defence but the results for the bible are an unknown. Obviously the defence should have pursued this.
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Does appearing on desert island disc carry some kind of kudos?
How many pathologists have been guests on desert island discs?!
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He was a police surgeon of long experience in addition to running a local general practice and elected president of the police surgeons association. He no doubt had a lot of experience in having to be the bearer of bad news and deal with the fall-out. You would also hope that someone in such a position would have extremely good interpersonal skills/emotional intelligence in judging what was going on in terms of people's body language etc.
There is no reason why he should have known the difference between real grief and play acting. None whatsoever.
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The pathologist carried out complete pm's on all victims. What do you think he overlooked? I would point out he was at one time a guest on Desert Island discs.
The fact SC's body was moved by those at soc pre soc images taken was withheld from the defence. Also blood test results on the bible have never been made available.
Only her arm was moved so nothing to release.
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Do miscarriages of justice have to involve a conspiracy?
The initial synopsis was murder/suicide and Dr Vanezis found nothing to contradict this. Plus he states all four officers present throughout the pm's were proceeding with murder/suicide.
All blood stained exhibuts were tested and the results made known to the defence but the results for the bible are an unknown. Obviously the defence should have pursued this.
But that isn't true Holly, he said that had he seen the body in situ, he would have had concerns.
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How many pathologists have been guests on desert island discs?!
Is the link significant?
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We were once discouraged from placing too much reliance on what Dr Craig had to say on the grounds that he was allegedly too dependent on alcohol. That being the case, is it possible that his assessment of Jeremy's shock/ grief was less than accurate?
The "boozy Dr. Craig" story came from Gladys Beltdown, who used to pretend to be a SAS soldier called Gav, so, you know...….
%56&
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How many pathologists have been guests on desert island discs?!
Who cares.
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There is no reason why he should have known the difference between real grief and play acting. None whatsoever.
How do any of us know the difference between real grief and play acting, if we didn't know the person involved, and we weren't there?
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How do any of us know the difference between real grief and play acting, if we didn't know the person involved, and we weren't there?
I'm not the one saying we can but if Bamber killed his family, he wasn't suffering from grief.
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Do miscarriages of justice have to involve a conspiracy?
The initial synopsis was murder/suicide and Dr Vanezis found nothing to contradict this. Plus he states all four officers present throughout the pm's were proceeding with murder/suicide.
All blood stained exhibuts were tested and the results made known to the defence but the results for the bible are an unknown. Obviously the defence should have pursued this.
More than likely the blood on the bible would come from three/ four adults,I don't think it would be wrong to surmise it would not have belonged to JB,the prosecution would possibly have used this.So that leaves three.Correct me if I'm wrong but it was found in the bedroom where Sheila and Junes bodies were found,so possibly narrows it even more.Not sure of the significance you're trying to put on it,but it won't absolve Bamber from being a child killer.
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There is no reason why he should have known the difference between real grief and play acting. None whatsoever.
And if in your opinion there's no reason a medi doc is able to distinguish between 'real grief' and 'play acting' then what makes you and others so sure the likes of PS Bews and DS Jones were able to?
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Only her arm was moved so nothing to release.
Yes officers admitted to lifting SC's arm at soc to photograph some bloodstaining from her wrist area. But what they didn't admit to doing at soc, and prior to photographs being taken, is pulling at her feet as per expert testimony from Dr Martyn Ismail a forensic scientist:
518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet. For her then to slide to be found in the position depicted in the photographs would have required the downward force to be greater than the friction of her body against the floor. In his opinion this simply was not possible as there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force. Therefore he concluded that an additional force would have been necessary. It could not have come from Sheila Caffell since the second shot would have been instantly fatal and thus she must have been moved by someone else, for example with her legs being pulled. He also considered that the weight and the friction between her skin and her nightdress was likely to have been less than the weight and friction between the nightdress and the carpet. Therefore, he would expect movement of the body within the nightdress rather than the body and clothing sliding together across the carpet. He pointed out that the photographs demonstrated this effect at the back of the nightdress with the nightdress staying rucked up in its original position. However the front of the nightdress had not demonstrated this effect. Accordingly Mr Ismail concluded that the nightdress had been pulled down after Sheila Caffell slid into her final position. Since on the evidence, she was dead by this stage, Mr Ismail concluded that some one else had arranged her nightdress.
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But that isn't true Holly, he said that had he seen the body in situ, he would have had concerns.
He did not make any such comments pre trial or during trial. Post trial he stated the following:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=744
It's called hedging your bets! And with regard to b and c he's right they were moved as a result of officers at soc moving SC as post above.
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The "boozy Dr. Craig" story came from Gladys Beltdown, who used to pretend to be a SAS soldier called Gav, so, you know...….
%56&
Some get a buzz out of booze, others religion. I know which I prefer (&^&. hic, hic
On a serious note there's no evidence whatsoever Dr Craig had a drink problem.
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Who cares.
Have you been invited onto Desert Island discs?
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More than likely the blood on the bible would come from three/ four adults,I don't think it would be wrong to surmise it would not have belonged to JB,the prosecution would possibly have used this.So that leaves three.Correct me if I'm wrong but it was found in the bedroom where Sheila and Junes bodies were found,so possibly narrows it even more.Not sure of the significance you're trying to put on it,but it won't absolve Bamber from being a child killer.
We shouldn't have to surmise since the blood stains should have been tested and the results made known to the defence. According to JM's testimony MM told SC to lie down and put the bible on her chest. So it was an important exhibit found at the heart of the soc and blood stained and should have been treated as such and not non-disclised to the defence.
But you're right it's not grounds for a referral to Coa just an additional point that can be added.
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In 2002 Dr Ismail provided a report on the position of the bible and the prosecution tried to introduce this issue to the court.
https://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/sheila-s-body
So do I read that right,the prosecution wanted it introduced?
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Have you been invited onto Desert Island discs?
Your're point being? the class system is alive and well in the good old diverse uk? desert island is for the great and good? did DS Stan Jones get invited for solving the Bamber case?
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In 2002 Dr Ismail provided a report on the position of the bible and the prosecution tried to introduce this issue to the court.
https://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/sheila-s-body
So do I read that right,the prosecution wanted it introduced?
Yes but what all concerned seem oblivious to is that the most senior first respondent, A/PS Woodcock, noted in his wit stat that SC's head was raised against the bedside cabinet whereas in soc images it is flat to the floor meaning SC was moved at soc post first respondents entering and pre soc images taken. Officers moved SC at soc and did not disclose this fact letting JB take the rap ?8)@)-)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251
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Your're point being? the class system is alive and well in the good old diverse uk? desert island is for the great and good? did DS Stan Jones get invited for solving the Bamber case?
Interestingly I'm just rereading CC's book and note he was not enamoured with DS Jones.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p009491v
8(>((
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Interestingly I'm just rereading CC's book and note he was not enamoured with DS Jones.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p009491v
8(>((
Independent claims by two people -and their wives- who worked alongside, and on occasions, as etiquette required, socialized with 'Little' Jones, describe him as being nearly as thoroughly obnoxious as he was portrayed as being. He met his end when he fell off a ladder. Perhaps the poor man had an undetected brain tumour, OR was simply suffering LMS (little man syndrome)?
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And if in your opinion there's no reason a medi doc is able to distinguish between 'real grief' and 'play acting' then what makes you and others so sure the likes of PS Bews and DS Jones were able to?
A. They were police officers - used to people lying.
B. They spent longer time with him, so more chance to observe him behaviour.
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Yes officers admitted to lifting SC's arm at soc to photograph some bloodstaining from her wrist area. But what they didn't admit to doing at soc, and prior to photographs being taken, is pulling at her feet as per expert testimony from Dr Martyn Ismail a forensic scientist:
518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet. For her then to slide to be found in the position depicted in the photographs would have required the downward force to be greater than the friction of her body against the floor. In his opinion this simply was not possible as there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force. Therefore he concluded that an additional force would have been necessary. It could not have come from Sheila Caffell since the second shot would have been instantly fatal and thus she must have been moved by someone else, for example with her legs being pulled. He also considered that the weight and the friction between her skin and her nightdress was likely to have been less than the weight and friction between the nightdress and the carpet. Therefore, he would expect movement of the body within the nightdress rather than the body and clothing sliding together across the carpet. He pointed out that the photographs demonstrated this effect at the back of the nightdress with the nightdress staying rucked up in its original position. However the front of the nightdress had not demonstrated this effect. Accordingly Mr Ismail concluded that the nightdress had been pulled down after Sheila Caffell slid into her final position. Since on the evidence, she was dead by this stage, Mr Ismail concluded that some one else had arranged her nightdress.
Holly, we have been through this - the blood on Sheila Caffell's face is proof that her head was flat to the floor. Blood has ran from the sides of her mouth, not down her chin and blood from her nose, has trailed to her eye. You theory is against the laws of gravity. Her head may (or may not) have been propped ups when shot, but if someone pulled her legs down, then the blood trails on her face show it was Bamber.
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He did not make any such comments pre trial or during trial. Post trial he stated the following:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=744
It's called hedging your bets! And with regard to b and c he's right they were moved as a result of officers at soc moving SC as post above.
How could he make that statement previous to the trial? He hadn't seen the crime scene!. The above statement doesn't indicate that officers moved anything but the blood on SC face prove her head was flat to the floor. You seem to ignore evidence when it doesn't suit.
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We shouldn't have to surmise since the blood stains should have been tested and the results made known to the defence. According to JM's testimony MM told SC to lie down and put the bible on her chest. So it was an important exhibit found at the heart of the soc and blood stained and should have been treated as such and not non-disclised to the defence.
But you're right it's not grounds for a referral to Coa just an additional point that can be added.
The bible was an exhibit at trail - an exhibit the defence chose not to use.
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Yes but what all concerned seem oblivious to is that the most senior first respondent, A/PS Woodcock, noted in his wit stat that SC's head was raised against the bedside cabinet whereas in soc images it is flat to the floor meaning SC was moved at soc post first respondents entering and pre soc images taken. Officers moved SC at soc and did not disclose this fact letting JB take the rap ?8)@)-)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251
What you seem to be ignoring (although you say it the be all and end all in this case) is the EVIDENCE. Look at the CS picture of ASC and please explain HOW blood would trial in that manner if her head was propped up? This doesn't sit well with your theory so you're just ignoring it and repeating the same error.
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Holly, we have been through this - the blood on Sheila Caffell's face is proof that her head was flat to the floor. Blood has ran from the sides of her mouth, not down her chin and blood from her nose, has trailed to her eye. You theory is against the laws of gravity. Her head may (or may not) have been propped ups when shot, but if someone pulled her legs down, then the blood trails on her face show it was Bamber.
Caroline with respect why am I going to run with your theory when a forensic scientist with a degree in biochemistry whose first role was as a body fluid analyst contradicts it?
Martyn Ismail cv:
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/martyn-ismail-293b8518
The Coa:
518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet
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A. They were police officers - used to people lying.
B. They spent longer time with him, so more chance to observe him behaviour.
JB passed a lie detector test. I don't put much weight on their reliability but I'm sure they're just as reliable as Bews gut feeling!
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How could he make that statement previous to the trial? He hadn't seen the crime scene!. The above statement doesn't indicate that officers moved anything but the blood on SC face prove her head was flat to the floor. You seem to ignore evidence when it doesn't suit.
What info did he have when he made that report on 12th Nov 86 that he didn't have pre JB charged?
He didn't visit soc when victims were in situ but he visited on 8th Aug and had access to soc images.
I'm not ignoring evidence at all; I've quoted the expert testimony from Martyn Ismail but you prefer your own theory.
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The bible was an exhibit at trail - an exhibit the defence chose not to use.
The Bible was referred to at trial when the prosecution went through exhibits with DC Hammersly but I don't think it was physically presented with jurors given an opportunity to inspect it.
According to Paul Terzeon (JB's trial solicitor) the defence asked about the open pages of the bible and it is obvious the defence did not have access to it. I accept it was down to the defence to pursue but as you know my opinion is that JB's legal representation at trial and 2002 appeal was woeful to say the least.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1857
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1859
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Caroline with respect why am I going to run with your theory when a forensic scientist with a degree in biochemistry whose first role was as a body fluid analyst contradicts it?
Martyn Ismail cv:
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/martyn-ismail-293b8518
The Coa:
518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet
Pah,my daughter trumps him,she's a PHD doctor.You brought class into it,msc thats all he is.
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What you seem to be ignoring (although you say it the be all and end all in this case) is the EVIDENCE. Look at the CS picture of ASC and please explain HOW blood would trial in that manner if her head was propped up? This doesn't sit well with your theory so you're just ignoring it and repeating the same error.
I'm ignoring your unqualified opinion over the expert evidence:
518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
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Yes but what all concerned seem oblivious to is that the most senior first respondent, A/PS Woodcock, noted in his wit stat that SC's head was raised against the bedside cabinet whereas in soc images it is flat to the floor meaning SC was moved at soc post first respondents entering and pre soc images taken. Officers moved SC at soc and did not disclose this fact letting JB take the rap ?8)@)-)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251
Always somebody else's fault.
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Pah,my daughter trumps him,she's a PHD doctor.You brought class into it,msc thats all he is.
Yes I think I recall you posting your daughter has a PhD and degree in Chemistry. Maybe ask her opinion. These things are often not as straightforward as they seem. I understand what Caroline is saying but I think there's more to it. I think I recall reading somewhere that he consulted with a pathologist prior to writing his report so it could be the leaked fluid is purge which I believe emits from orifices some time after death.
When I look at these cases I'm always loathed to deviate from expert opinion as the chances are if he/she is appropriately qualified it stands to reason they will know far more about the subject than those who haven't had to demonstrate their competence by way of passing an exam.
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Always somebody else's fault.
Not sure what you mean?
A/PS Woodcock just noted his visual perception of soc which aligns with the expert evidence from Martyn Ismail?
By all concerned I was referring to JB's defence assuming A/PS Woodcock's wit stat was made available or they sought it out.
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Yes but what all concerned seem oblivious to is that the most senior first respondent, A/PS Woodcock, noted in his wit stat that SC's head was raised against the bedside cabinet whereas in soc images it is flat to the floor meaning SC was moved at soc post first respondents entering and pre soc images taken. Officers moved SC at soc and did not disclose this fact letting JB take the rap ?8)@)-)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251
ALL of these statements bother me. We read exactly what is said and process it. Trouble is, I think we're all inclined to process it differently, leaving no margins. Woodstock noted "that SC's head was raised against the bedside cabinet". Was it at right-angles to her body with her head tilted? Was it somewhat flatter, meaning her head was only slightly raised from the floor? Was her body flat, or was it tilted and leaning to one side? All of which will have some bearing on the direction of blood flow.
I don't question any moving of the body. SO convinced were they that it was a case of murder/suicide they probably didn't think it would matter. It doesn't, however, mean that Jeremy is innocent, only that he was very convincing.
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Caroline with respect why am I going to run with your theory when a forensic scientist with a degree in biochemistry whose first role was as a body fluid analyst contradicts it?
Martyn Ismail cv:
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/martyn-ismail-293b8518
The Coa:
518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet
You have two eyes? You have seen that blood roll from her mouth horizontally? You can see that it has rolled back down her face from her nose and into her eye. Now please tell me how this can occur if her head is 'propped up'? Ismail is only talking about when she was shot and he states that someone moved her 'afterwards' - however, from the blood on her face, it could NOT have been the police. Your own sited evidence has tied you in knots and I think you realise that - Ismail made no indication that the police moved Sheila and what he said, isn't supporting your argument.
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Yes I think I recall you posting your daughter has a PhD and degree in Chemistry. Maybe ask her opinion. These things are often not as straightforward as they seem. I understand what Caroline is saying but I think there's more to it. I think I recall reading somewhere that he consulted with a pathologist prior to writing his report so it could be the leaked fluid is purge which I believe emits from orifices some time after death.
When I look at these cases I'm always loathed to deviate from expert opinion as the chances are if he/she is appropriately qualified it stands to reason they will know far more about the subject than those who haven't had to demonstrate their competence by way of passing an exam.
'Purge'? Are you SERIOUS? It does indeed emit from orifices after death, 3 - 5 days later! There is n o way that blood can defy gravity as you describe. Given that 'purge' is the result of purification, the idea that this happens a few hours after death is just silly. I thought you had studied this stuff? Blood is leaving from Sheila's mouth but swapping blood for surge still leaves you with the FACT that liquid cannot defy the laws of gravity and for her head to be propped up, it would have ran DOWN her face, not up.
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ALL of these statements bother me. We read exactly what is said and process it. Trouble is, I think we're all inclined to process it differently, leaving no margins. Woodstock noted "that SC's head was raised against the bedside cabinet". Was it at right-angles to her body with her head tilted? Was it somewhat flatter, meaning her head was only slightly raised from the floor? Was her body flat, or was it tilted and leaning to one side? All of which will have some bearing on the direction of blood flow.
I don't question any moving of the body. SO convinced were they that it was a case of murder/suicide they probably didn't think it would matter. It doesn't, however, mean that Jeremy is innocent, only that he was very convincing.
The evidence shows her head was flat - blood on Sheila's face prove it.
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'Purge'? Are you SERIOUS? It does indeed emit from orifices after death, 3 - 5 days later! There is n o way that blood can defy gravity as you describe. Given that 'purge' is the result of purification, the idea that this happens a few hours after death is just silly. I thought you had studied this stuff? Blood is leaving from Sheila's mouth but swapping blood for surge still leaves you with the FACT that liquid cannot defy the laws of gravity and for her head to be propped up, it would have ran DOWN her face, not up.
"Putrefaction"?
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The evidence shows her head was flat - blood on Sheila's face prove it.
Unquestionably.
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Caroline with respect why am I going to run with your theory when a forensic scientist with a degree in biochemistry whose first role was as a body fluid analyst contradicts it?
Have you never considered the same regarding your own “theories”?
as you know my opinion is that JB's legal representation at trial and 2002 appeal was woeful to say the least.
?
I'm ignoring your unqualified opinion
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"Putrefaction"?
Yes, that's what I meant - using my phone and it predicts!
Putrefaction - Where the bodies tissues start to breakdown and leak. It doesn't happen a few hours after death. The suggestion that purge is leaking from Sheila's mouth and nose at that stage of death is astounding!
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I'm ignoring your unqualified opinion over the expert evidence:
518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
You're ignoring the laws of gravity and trying to force the words of Ismail to support YOUR theory that the police moved Sheila's head when he didn't sate that at all.
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The best evidence of all comes from the pathologist, Vanezis, who carried out the autopsies
He stated that Sheila had Hypostatis (mottling of the skin) which proved Sheila died in the position she was found.
So, except for the police moving Sheila’s hand to take photographs of the blood on her nightdress which was hidden by her hand, Sheila’s body wasn’t moved at all. And why would it have been?
A big fat line should be drawn under that, as it’s been proven she wasn’t moved.
It’s also been proven, again by Vanezis, that the first bullet caused sever haemorrhaging on the right side of her neck, with the bullet finishing at the main part of her spine causing fractures.
Vanezis stated: “Sheila did not get up after that first shot”
Besides her severe injuries, including severe haemorrhaging (which can be seen in the build up in her neck), there was NO blood down the front of her nightdress — which means she couldn’t have walked around.
It’s very simple to understand...
It’s also very simple to understand that as the first bullet didn’t kill her immediately, Bamber shot her a second time.
Regarding Nevill, Vanezis stated that Nevill was definitely shot four times UPSTAIRS. Every single piece of evidence PROVES that.
The shots he received upstairs went into his lip, severing it, through his jawbone, fracturing it, then shattered his teeth, larynx and main gland in his neck.
Vanezis said Nevill would not have been able to talk. It would have even been difficult for him to cough the blood from his throat.
And here’s people actually believing Jeremy’s claim that Nevill walked downstairs, looked through a telephone directory (which wasn’t there), rang the police 20 miles away, and rang Jeremy too
FGS...this is absolutely insane!
Oh, just to add, when the police officers eventually left WHF, two officers were tasked with the duty of securing the house. They discovered that BOTH the kitchen window AND the ground floor bathroom window were both unsecured and had their latches in the unlocked position. This was reported and logged to the investigation team, who seemingly took little note of it.
That man, Jeremy Bamber is guilty as sin, and anyone who refutes that by coming out with pathetic, ridiculous arguments that carry no weight or evidence, are either incredibly shortsighted or have some other agenda — because I don’t believe anyone could be so dim-witted to think Jeremy didn’t kill his family, when all the overwhelming evidence proves he did.
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The best evidence of all comes from the pathologist, Vanezis, who carried out the autopsies
He stated that Sheila had Hypostatis (mottling of the skin) which proved Sheila died in the position she was found.
So, except for the police moving Sheila’s hand to take photographs of the blood on her nightdress which was hidden by her hand, Sheila’s body wasn’t moved at all. And why would it have been?
A big fat line should be drawn under that, as it’s been proven she wasn’t moved.
It’s also been proven, again by Vanezis, that the first bullet caused sever haemorrhaging on the right side of her neck, with the bullet finishing at the main part of her spine causing fractures.
Vanezis stated: “Sheila did not get up after that first shot”
Besides her severe injuries, including severe haemorrhaging (which can be seen in the build up in her neck), there was NO blood down the front of her nightdress — which means she couldn’t have walked around.
It’s very simple to understand...
It’s also very simple to understand that as the first bullet didn’t kill her immediately, Bamber shot her a second time.
Regarding Nevill, Vanezis stated that Nevill was definitely shot four times UPSTAIRS. Every single piece of evidence PROVES that.
The shots he received upstairs went into his lip, severing it, through his jawbone, fracturing it, then shattered his teeth, larynx and main gland in his neck.
Vanezis said Nevill would not have been able to talk. It would have even been difficult for him to cough the blood from his throat.
And here’s people actually believing Jeremy’s claim that Nevill walked downstairs, looked through a telephone directory (which wasn’t there), rang the police 20 miles away, and rang Jeremy too
FGS...this is absolutely insane!
Oh, just to add, when the police officers eventually left WHF, two officers were tasked with the duty of securing the house. They discovered that BOTH the kitchen window AND the ground floor bathroom window were both unsecured and had their latches in the unlocked position. This was reported and logged to the investigation team, who seemingly took little note of it.
That man, Jeremy Bamber is guilty as sin, and anyone who refutes that by coming out with pathetic, ridiculous arguments that carry no weight or evidence, are either incredibly shortsighted or have some other agenda — because I don’t believe anyone could be so dim-witted to think Jeremy didn’t kill his family, when all the overwhelming evidence proves he did.
What evidence is there to show that Nevill Bamber didn't use the telephone before any shots were fired at him?
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What evidence is there to show that Nevill Bamber didn't use the telephone before any shots were fired at him?
I wasn’t going to reply to you at first: I’ve explained everything as simply as I can in the post you’re replying to
The telephone had been removed from the master bedroom — understand?
Nevill’s blood including the bullet casings were found in his bedroom: thus, he MUST have been shot in his bedroom
That means, please read carefully, that means that as the bullets rendered him unable to TALK, he wasn’t able to SPEAK once he’d got down to the kitchen
What don’t you understand about that?
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I wasn’t going to reply to you at first: I’ve explained everything as simply as I can in the post you’re replying to
The telephone had been removed from the master bedroom — understand?
Nevill’s blood including the bullet casings were found in his bedroom: thus, he MUST have been shot in his bedroom
That means, please read carefully, that means that as the bullets rendered him unable to TALK, he wasn’t able to SPEAK once he’d got down to the kitchen
What don’t you understand about that?
Why do you assume he was shot prior to being in the kitchen?
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Why do you assume he was shot prior to being in the kitchen?
I just explained it to you!
You can’t grasp it can you?
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I just explained it to you!
You can’t grasp it can you?
I understand exactly what you're saying, and I'm saying you can't prove you're right.
Who moved the telephone from the bedroom to the kitchen? Why and when was it done?
Where is the evidence that Nevill was shot four times before he went down to the kitchen?
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G unit, it was done several days before the murder but nobody knows exactly when or prove it was Jeremy. Here is an article regarding the phone switch, you need to ignore the first few paragraphs of flannel https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1387438/I-wrong-Jeremy-Bamber-says-crime-writer.html
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I wasn’t going to reply to you at first: I’ve explained everything as simply as I can in the post you’re replying to
The telephone had been removed from the master bedroom — understand?
Nevill’s blood including the bullet casings were found in his bedroom: thus, he MUST have been shot in his bedroom
That means, please read carefully, that means that as the bullets rendered him unable to TALK, he wasn’t able to SPEAK once he’d got down to the kitchen
What don’t you understand about that?
Nevill's blood wasn't found in the bedroom, just the casings (one on the stairs), his blood was found on the staircase wall.
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G unit, it was done several days before the murder but nobody knows exactly when or prove it was Jeremy. Here is an article regarding the phone switch, you need to ignore the first few paragraphs of flannel https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1387438/I-wrong-Jeremy-Bamber-says-crime-writer.html
Thank you. I can see speculation but no underlying evidence in that article.
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I understand exactly what you're saying, and I'm saying you can't prove you're right.
Who moved the telephone from the bedroom to the kitchen? Why and when was it done?
Where is the evidence that Nevill was shot four times before he went down to the kitchen?
You still haven’t grasped the facts
It isn’t me who’s proving I’m right: I’m quoting the pathologist who proved Nevill was first shot in the bedroom. And unlike you and me, he’d know. As did the forensic team and ballistic experts.
To explain is to you in simple terms, when pathologists carry out autopsies they can determine when/how a person was killed
The pathologist knew for certain that the first four shots Nevill received didn’t kill him. One reason for that was his blood circulation was still working (dead people have no circulation), so therefore, Nevill’s blood in the bedroom that trailed down to the kitchen where he eventually died after being shot in the head, meant he must have first been shot in the bedroom — and the bullet casings were found there too
It’s very simple
As for the telephone, usually the ivory phone was in the master bedroom, but as the kitchen phone had been taken away for repairs (which I suspect was engineered by JB), the ivory phone was put into the kitchen as that’s where the family congregated. The usual kitchen phone was collected for repairs just a day or so prior to Jeremy killing his family, so one can assume Nevill himself transferred the bedroom phone into the kitchen as a temporary measure; but it’s irrelevant when it was put there — so I’m not sure why you’re asking
I strongly suspect, though, that Jeremy damaged the kitchen phone to make sure Nevill would bring down the ivory phone — rendering both Nevill and June helpless in dialling 999 if they heard noises downstairs when he climbed through the window
He put a lot of planning into those murders
He even asked Sheila just weeks before when she’d be bringing the twins down to stay: something he’d never, ever asked before in his life
It was all premeditated
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G unit, it was done several days before the murder but nobody knows exactly when or prove it was Jeremy. Here is an article regarding the phone switch, you need to ignore the first few paragraphs of flannel https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1387438/I-wrong-Jeremy-Bamber-says-crime-writer.html
Oh, that’s interesting
I haven’t seen that article before
That’s even more damning for JB
There’s definitely something amiss with the “broken phone” which was collected — was that person ever interviewed and asked what the problem with the phone was? They seldom go wrong...unless they’ve been smashed...
And the fact the kitchen phone was hidden under papers — and was in perfect working order — further sheds light on what Jeremy did
It also blows out the water Jeremy’s ludicrous claim that Sheila had gone into a psychotic frenzy: you have to be thinking clearly when trying to pin something so horrendous on someone else, and anyone in a psychosis can’t possibly do that — think to hide phones, unplug them, move them etc...nor would it occur or matter to them
The more that comes out the more it proves how Jeremy Bamber is a cold-blooded murderer
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You still haven’t grasped the facts
It isn’t me who’s proving I’m right: I’m quoting the pathologist who proved Nevill was first shot in the bedroom. And unlike you and me, he’d know. As did the forensic team and ballistic experts.
To explain is to you in simple terms, when pathologists carry out autopsies they can determine when/how a person was killed
The pathologist knew for certain that the first four shots Nevill received didn’t kill him. One reason for that was his blood circulation was still working (dead people have no circulation), so therefore, Nevill’s blood in the bedroom that trailed down to the kitchen where he eventually died after being shot in the head, meant he must have first been shot in the bedroom — and the bullet casings were found there too
It’s very simple
As for the telephone, usually the ivory phone was in the master bedroom, but as the kitchen phone had been taken away for repairs (which I suspect was engineered by JB), the ivory phone was put into the kitchen as that’s where the family congregated. The usual kitchen phone was collected for repairs just a day or so prior to Jeremy killing his family, so one can assume Nevill himself transferred the bedroom phone into the kitchen as a temporary measure; but it’s irrelevant when it was put there — so I’m not sure why you’re asking
I strongly suspect, though, that Jeremy damaged the kitchen phone to make sure Nevill would bring down the ivory phone — rendering both Nevill and June helpless in dialling 999 if they heard noises downstairs when he climbed through the window
He put a lot of planning into those murders
He even asked Sheila just weeks before when she’d be bringing the twins down to stay: something he’d never, ever asked before in his life
It was all premeditated
I have never argued that Nevill wasn't shot in the bedroom. He obviously was because of the shell cases and it was obviously before the shots in the kitchen because they killed him. What I am suggesting is that he could have been in the kitchen using the phone before he was in the bedroom being shot. Can you prove that he wasn't?
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You still haven’t grasped the facts
It isn’t me who’s proving I’m right: I’m quoting the pathologist who proved Nevill was first shot in the bedroom. And unlike you and me, he’d know. As did the forensic team and ballistic experts.
To explain is to you in simple terms, when pathologists carry out autopsies they can determine when/how a person was killed
The pathologist knew for certain that the first four shots Nevill received didn’t kill him. One reason for that was his blood circulation was still working (dead people have no circulation), so therefore, Nevill’s blood in the bedroom that trailed down to the kitchen where he eventually died after being shot in the head, meant he must have first been shot in the bedroom — and the bullet casings were found there too
It’s very simple
As for the telephone, usually the ivory phone was in the master bedroom, but as the kitchen phone had been taken away for repairs (which I suspect was engineered by JB), the ivory phone was put into the kitchen as that’s where the family congregated. The usual kitchen phone was collected for repairs just a day or so prior to Jeremy killing his family, so one can assume Nevill himself transferred the bedroom phone into the kitchen as a temporary measure; but it’s irrelevant when it was put there — so I’m not sure why you’re asking
I strongly suspect, though, that Jeremy damaged the kitchen phone to make sure Nevill would bring down the ivory phone — rendering both Nevill and June helpless in dialling 999 if they heard noises downstairs when he climbed through the window
He put a lot of planning into those murders
He even asked Sheila just weeks before when she’d be bringing the twins down to stay: something he’d never, ever asked before in his life
It was all premeditated
Nevill's blood wasn't found in the bedroom.
The usual kitchen phone wasn't taken for repairs, that was the handsfree which just didn't work - it had a fault. Pike ordered another one and it had the same fault so the handsfree was just removed. The usual kitchen phone was in the magazine rack.
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Nevill's blood wasn't found in the bedroom, just the casings (one on the stairs), his blood was found on the staircase wall.
Apologies — you’re right
Nevill’s blood was indeed on the stairwell, which again proves he was walking downstairs before he was finally killed
It deeply suggests that that when Jeremy snuck in through the window the Bamber’s woke up, probably due to Crispy barking (hence Jeremys deep hatred for the “yapping” dog) and Nevill had probably already got out of bed to investigate and was shot at the top of the staircase
It all makes sense now
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Thank you. I can see speculation but no underlying evidence in that article.
What are you struggling with?
It’s very simple...
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I have never argued that Nevill wasn't shot in the bedroom. He obviously was because of the shell cases and it was obviously before the shots in the kitchen because they killed him. What I am suggesting is that he could have been in the kitchen using the phone before he was in the bedroom being shot. Can you prove that he wasn't?
Are you saying that Nevill, who was a fiercely good and strong man devoted to his family, would have left his wife and grandchildren upstairs while Sheila was going crazy with his rifle, and run downstairs to phone Jeremy, leaving precious seconds in which to disarm her?
Would YOU do that?
Nevill was no pushover. He was physically and mentally fit. He was 6”4”, strong, in excellent health and could’ve disarmed Sheila in an instant
To even suggest he’d phone Jeremy of all people when his family were in immediate grave danger makes you look idiotic
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I have never argued that Nevill wasn't shot in the bedroom. He obviously was because of the shell cases and it was obviously before the shots in the kitchen because they killed him. What I am suggesting is that he could have been in the kitchen using the phone before he was in the bedroom being shot. Can you prove that he wasn't?
Can you prove he was?
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Can you prove he was?
As you obviously can't prove that he wasn't then there's a possibility that he was.
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As you obviously can't prove that he wasn't then there's a possibility that he was.
I don’t need to prove Nevill wasn’t making any phone calls — the pathologist proved that 😌
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As you obviously can't prove that he wasn't then there's a possibility that he was.
A possibilities are there of just about anything you care to name. What carries weight is the balance of probabilities.
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As you obviously can't prove that he wasn't then there's a possibility that he was.
The general consensus, is that on the balance of probabilities it was extremely unlikely that Nevill would have called his wastrel son for help instead of simply disarming Sheila or even calling the police. In fact Jeremy would be the last person he would call for help considering he had recently told Barbara Wilson he feared him.
The likelihood becomes even less if you presume that no shots have been fired yet.
The idea of the phone call was to give Jeremy an alibi, and it totally backfired on him.
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The general consensus, is that on the balance of probabilities it was extremely unlikely that Nevill would have called his wastrel son for help instead of simply disarming Sheila or even calling the police. In fact Jeremy would be the last person he would call for help considering he had recently told Barbara Wilson he feared him.
The likelihood becomes even less if you presume that no shots have been fired yet.
The idea of the phone call was to give Jeremy an alibi, and it totally backfired on him.
We all know Jeremy Bamber killed his family, but let’s just suppose it wasn’t him
Why on Earth would Nevill have left Sheila “going crazy with a gun” alone upstairs where his wife and grandchildren were— in grave danger?
Sheila was unsteady as it was, and that rifle was not much shorter than her, which means it would’ve been easy for Nevil being strong, fit, 6”4” to grab hold of that long rifle and take it off her
So all this rubbish that Nevill may have left his wife & grandchildren to be shot dead, to phone his useless son who lived three miles away and would’ve been sleeping, to come and “rescue” him is utter madness
Going onto alibis...Jeremy does unwittingly trip himself up so often...
Here’s one of his letters to a “fan”, Trudie, mentioning the word “alibi”...that word is mentioned by those who are guilty — innocent people never say they have an alibi
[attachment deleted by admin]
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We all know Jeremy Bamber killed his family, but let’s just suppose it wasn’t him
Why on Earth would Nevill have left Sheila “going crazy with a gun” alone upstairs where his wife and grandchildren were— in grave danger?
Sheila was unsteady as it was, and that rifle was not much shorter than her, which means it would’ve been easy for Nevil being strong, fit, 6”4” to grab hold of that long rifle and take it off her
So all this rubbish that Nevill may have left his wife & grandchildren to be shot dead, to phone his useless son who lived three miles away and would’ve been sleeping, to come and “rescue” him is utter madness
Going onto alibis...Jeremy does unwittingly trip himself up so often...
Here’s one of his letters to a “fan”, Trudie, mentioning the word “alibi”...that word is mentioned by those who are guilty — innocent people never say they have an alibi
It's only 3 miles from boundary to boundary. Jeremy lived outside of the Goldhanger boundary, and WHF lays well outside of the D'arcy boundary. In fact, it's probably closer to Tollesbury. If he hadn't wanted the police involved, IF Nevill had called anyone, the Folkes were his best bet, living only minutes away and unlike Jeremy, certain to go to his aid.
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I don’t need to prove Nevill wasn’t making any phone calls — the pathologist proved that 😌
All he proved was that Nevill was shot four times upstairs and then finished off downstairs following a struggle. He had nothing to say about where Nevill was before the shooting started.
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All he proved was that Nevill was shot four times upstairs and then finished off downstairs following a struggle. He had nothing to say about where Nevill was before the shooting started.
So, no shooting going on - but Sheila has a gun and is seemingly going crazy. Why would Nevill leave her to call Jeremy?
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So, no shooting going on - but Sheila has a gun and is seemingly going crazy. Why would Nevill leave her to call Jeremy?
If that's what he did then only he knows why. According to others there seemed to be something going on that evening. Barbara Wilson rang the house at 9:30 pm, spoke to Nevill and got the impression that she'd interupted an argument. Pamela Boutflower rang at 10:00 pm and thought June and Sheila didn't seem like themselves. Nevill was seen in the field collecting the rape harvest at 10:15 pm. What happened between then and approx. 03:30 am isn't known.
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I remember reading (and apologies, I can't recall where) that Nevill used to shower downstairs every evening , and then sit down with a drink before bed. So, he would have been downstairs at some time in the evening. Why couldn't he have phoned Jeremy then, had Sheila begun to have a psychotic episode and had picked up a gun?
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If that's what he did then only he knows why. According to others there seemed to be something going on that evening. Barbara Wilson rang the house at 9:30 pm, spoke to Nevill and got the impression that she'd interupted an argument. Pamela Boutflower rang at 10:00 pm and thought June and Sheila didn't seem like themselves. Nevill was seen in the field collecting the rape harvest at 10:15 pm. What happened between then and approx. 03:30 am isn't known.
Pamela didn't say that June didn't seem like herself, in fact she stated that June 'acted quite normally', she said June was worried about Sheila as she didn't seem to have an interest in anything. This is consistent with the side effects of her medication. She made no mention of an argument. Nevill seemed annoyed probably because Jeremy left him to bring the last trailer of rape seed in. Jeremy could just as easily have been the brunt of an argument with Nevill.
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I remember reading (and apologies, I can't recall where) that Nevill used to shower downstairs every evening , and then sit down with a drink before bed. So, he would have been downstairs at some time in the evening. Why couldn't he have phoned Jeremy then, had Sheila begun to have a psychotic episode and had picked up a gun?
At 3am?
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I remember reading (and apologies, I can't recall where) that Nevill used to shower downstairs every evening , and then sit down with a drink before bed. So, he would have been downstairs at some time in the evening. Why couldn't he have phoned Jeremy then, had Sheila begun to have a psychotic episode and had picked up a gun?
Page 6893 Carol Ann Lee's book.
I have read also that Sheila had been known to ring her father from London and speak with him into the night. It's not beyond the realms of possibility therefore that she and her father stayed up late talking.
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A possibilities are there of just about anything you care to name. What carries weight is the balance of probabilities.
Beyond reasonable doubt is the standard of proof needed in a criminal trial. The lesser standard of the balance of probabilities is reserved for civil cases.
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Pamela didn't say that June didn't seem like herself, in fact she stated that June 'acted quite normally', she said June was worried about Sheila as she didn't seem to have an interest in anything. This is consistent with the side effects of her medication. She made no mention of an argument. Nevill seemed annoyed probably because Jeremy left him to bring the last trailer of rape seed in. Jeremy could just as easily have been the brunt of an argument with Nevill.
June told Pamela that she was worried about Sheila and had been trying to persuade her to take a holiday at a home in Bournemouth. Pamela added to this, telling Robert it was a nursing home, and telling Colin it was a Christian community.
CAL's book page 158
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All he proved was that Nevill was shot four times upstairs and then finished off downstairs following a struggle. He had nothing to say about where Nevill was before the shooting started.
It wasn’t Vanezis’ job to determine where Nevill was moments prior to the shootings; his job was to prove how Nevill died
What you’re trying to infer is that Nevill phoned Jeremy to come and rescue them all from Sheila — and that is a ludicrous suggestion
Had Sheila suddenly gone berserk and was waving the gun around upstairs that would have been a dire emergency. Nevill wouldn’t have had time, nor even would have thought to leave his family in grave danger by going downstairs to phone Jeremy. That would be akin to watching your family drowning and instead of jumping in to rescue them, trotting off to a telephone and calling someone who lived three miles away to come and save them...and then for good measure, calling the police 20 miles away (after looking their number up in a directory) and telling them too that his wife and grandchildren were currently drowning
TIME would have been of the essence, and in such an emergency your natural reaction would be to save your family
Nevill would have — and could have — disarmed Sheila quickly by simply throwing himself on top of her. According to Jeremy when he himself phoned the police, Sheila was just “going berserk” with a gun — he never said that Nevill told him she’d shot anyone — so that would mean Nevill left Sheila alone up stairs “going crazy”. He wouldn’t have left her free to kill his family!
You’re also forgetting that had that been true, and no shots had been fired, Nevill possibly wouldn’t have even known if the gun was loaded — so all the more reason he’d have swiftly disarmed her. But whether it was loaded or not he’d have still taken swift immediate action.
And after disarming her if he was going to phone anyone it would have been the local doctor to come out and sedate her...
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I remember reading (and apologies, I can't recall where) that Nevill used to shower downstairs every evening , and then sit down with a drink before bed. So, he would have been downstairs at some time in the evening. Why couldn't he have phoned Jeremy then, had Sheila begun to have a psychotic episode and had picked up a gun?
According to Jeremy Nevill phoned him at around 03:25
But that’s been disproven — Jeremy lied
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If that's what he did then only he knows why. According to others there seemed to be something going on that evening. Barbara Wilson rang the house at 9:30 pm, spoke to Nevill and got the impression that she'd interupted an argument. Pamela Boutflower rang at 10:00 pm and thought June and Sheila didn't seem like themselves. Nevill was seen in the field collecting the rape harvest at 10:15 pm. What happened between then and approx. 03:30 am isn't known.
Look, all families have quarrels sometimes
They could have been quarrelling about absolutely anything — something as minor as June’s cooking that night and cross words were said. You’re attaching too much importance to that. But whatever it was, it didn’t stop Nevill doing his usual routine of collecting the rape harvest of the day at 10:15pm — so it obviously wasn’t a major argument
The person who could tell you what happened later is Jeremy...he knows
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Page 6893 Carol Ann Lee's book.
I have read also that Sheila had been known to ring her father from London and speak with him into the night. It's not beyond the realms of possibility therefore that she and her father stayed up late talking.
And what if they did?
All that would suggest is that Sheila was functioning well enough to have a long conversation, and obviously wasn’t having a psychotic episode
But going by the aftermath Sheila had definitely slept in her bed that night and she was in her nightdress when found shot dead on the floor
You’re forgetting that Sheila was extremely tired and weak from the effects of her medication and her menstrual period had recently started too — which often makes women feel more tired than normal.
Nevill had also been to bed too and was also in his pyjamas.
He usually went to bed quite early anyway, as he always had to be up early in the morning for the farm, so your suggestion he and Sheila were both up into the early hours doesn’t add up
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Beyond reasonable doubt is the standard of proof needed in a criminal trial. The lesser standard of the balance of probabilities is reserved for civil cases.
Why are you being pedantic?
Jeremy was convicted of the murders after being found guilty, and has lost all appeals since then, which means there is no doubt whatsoever that he’s guilty
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Page 6893 Carol Ann Lee's book.
I have read also that Sheila had been known to ring her father from London and speak with him into the night. It's not beyond the realms of possibility therefore that she and her father stayed up late talking.
That happened once.
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June told Pamela that she was worried about Sheila and had been trying to persuade her to take a holiday at a home in Bournemouth. Pamela added to this, telling Robert it was a nursing home, and telling Colin it was a Christian community.
CAL's book page 158
So, where in that does Pam state that June wasn't herself? She actually said that June seemed normal.
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According to Jeremy Nevill phoned him at around 03:25
But that’s been disproven — Jeremy lied
Jeremy said that Nevill called around 03:10, the 03:25 call is supposed to be when Nevill called the police. This is a recent claim, prior to the notion of Nevill calling the police 03:25 was when Jeremy argued that he himself called the police. Now he's claiming he called them at 03:36.
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Beyond reasonable doubt is the standard of proof needed in a criminal trial. The lesser standard of the balance of probabilities is reserved for civil cases.
People have different thresholds for voting guilty.
A poster on the Blue forum recently said there is no smoking gun, so could not have voted guilty. But surely if there was CCTV of Jeremy entering WHF on the night, he would have pleaded guilty.
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It wasn’t Vanezis’ job to determine where Nevill was moments prior to the shootings; his job was to prove how Nevill died
What you’re trying to infer is that Nevill phoned Jeremy to come and rescue them all from Sheila — and that is a ludicrous suggestion
Had Sheila suddenly gone berserk and was waving the gun around upstairs that would have been a dire emergency. Nevill wouldn’t have had time, nor even would have thought to leave his family in grave danger by going downstairs to phone Jeremy. That would be akin to watching your family drowning and instead of jumping in to rescue them, trotting off to a telephone and calling someone who lived three miles away to come and save them...and then for good measure, calling the police 20 miles away (after looking their number up in a directory) and telling them too that his wife and grandchildren were currently drowning
TIME would have been of the essence, and in such an emergency your natural reaction would be to save your family
Nevill would have — and could have — disarmed Sheila quickly by simply throwing himself on top of her. According to Jeremy when he himself phoned the police, Sheila was just “going berserk” with a gun — he never said that Nevill told him she’d shot anyone — so that would mean Nevill left Sheila alone up stairs “going crazy”. He wouldn’t have left her free to kill his family!
You’re also forgetting that had that been true, and no shots had been fired, Nevill possibly wouldn’t have even known if the gun was loaded — so all the more reason he’d have swiftly disarmed her. But whether it was loaded or not he’d have still taken swift immediate action.
And after disarming her if he was going to phone anyone it would have been the local doctor to come out and sedate her...
Yes Nevill's huge height and weight advantage would have seen him take Sheila to ground.
The smashed ceiling light, aga scratches & general disruption in the kitchen shows Nevill wrestled for the rifle & was not able to take his attacker to ground.
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Nevill's blood wasn't found in the bedroom, just the casings (one on the stairs), his blood was found on the staircase wall.
That is correct.
There was a lot of blood on the main bedroom carpet. I doubt that it was all checked. Some of it could have been Nevill's. But most of it Sheila's & June's, for obvious reasons.
Nevill was already on the move to the bedroom door when receiving his 4 shots. There was no time for the torso shots to drip through his pyjamas onto the floor. The mouth shots would have intially started bleeding inside his mouth.
The weapon was a rifle for shooting rabbits. So I do not agree with David that Bamber is innocent because there may not have been any of Nevill's blood in tne bedroom.
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We all know Jeremy Bamber killed his family, but let’s just suppose it wasn’t him
Why on Earth would Nevill have left Sheila “going crazy with a gun” alone upstairs where his wife and grandchildren were— in grave danger?
Sheila was unsteady as it was, and that rifle was not much shorter than her, which means it would’ve been easy for Nevil being strong, fit, 6”4” to grab hold of that long rifle and take it off her
So all this rubbish that Nevill may have left his wife & grandchildren to be shot dead, to phone his useless son who lived three miles away and would’ve been sleeping, to come and “rescue” him is utter madness
Going onto alibis...Jeremy does unwittingly trip himself up so often...
Here’s one of his letters to a “fan”, Trudie, mentioning the word “alibi”...that word is mentioned by those who are guilty — innocent people never say they have an alibi
Both the prosecution and defence say Nevill would have only called Jeremy and the police after the opening bedroom shots.
Supporters on forums have different views. Saying he called while Sheila was downstairs & did not notice her go upstairs. Or Sheila had locked herself into the bathroom, or held Nevill at gun point and ordered him to phone Jeremy.
The CT have never been specific on when the call was made. Or when Chelmsford police had been called.
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You still haven’t grasped the facts
It isn’t me who’s proving I’m right: I’m quoting the pathologist who proved Nevill was first shot in the bedroom. And unlike you and me, he’d know. As did the forensic team and ballistic experts.
To explain is to you in simple terms, when pathologists carry out autopsies they can determine when/how a person was killed
The pathologist knew for certain that the first four shots Nevill received didn’t kill him. One reason for that was his blood circulation was still working (dead people have no circulation), so therefore, Nevill’s blood in the bedroom that trailed down to the kitchen where he eventually died after being shot in the head, meant he must have first been shot in the bedroom — and the bullet casings were found there too
It’s very simple
As for the telephone, usually the ivory phone was in the master bedroom, but as the kitchen phone had been taken away for repairs (which I suspect was engineered by JB), the ivory phone was put into the kitchen as that’s where the family congregated. The usual kitchen phone was collected for repairs just a day or so prior to Jeremy killing his family, so one can assume Nevill himself transferred the bedroom phone into the kitchen as a temporary measure; but it’s irrelevant when it was put there — so I’m not sure why you’re asking
I strongly suspect, though, that Jeremy damaged the kitchen phone to make sure Nevill would bring down the ivory phone — rendering both Nevill and June helpless in dialling 999 if they heard noises downstairs when he climbed through the window
He put a lot of planning into those murders
He even asked Sheila just weeks before when she’d be bringing the twins down to stay: something he’d never, ever asked before in his life
It was all premeditated
I do not believe Bamber engineered the faulty telephones beforehand. He was not that merticulous. Besides which, on the night the kitchen and bedroom phones were in working order.
The bedroom phone may have been in the bedroom on the night. He just had to take the kitchen phone off the hook, to disable all phones. He took the bedroom phone downstairs, as Nevill was there.
The 'last number dialled' phone not being in use, would have been a blow to Bamber. He would have used that to phone his cottage.
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66.
The only telephone with a memory recall feature was the cordless telephone but this had been faulty and was collected for repair on the morning of 5 August 1985.
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Don't know if Bamber was aware of this. If not, it would have kept his plan on track. He could have moved Nevill a few yards from his bed, then left the memory recall phone next to Nevill, on the floor. The last number dialled being to Jeremy.
If he was aware, he may have decided to go ahead anyway. Knowing he only had a short window of opportunity.
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Snip/
It wasn’t Vanezis’ job to determine where Nevill was moments prior to the shootings; his job was to prove how Nevill died
I wondered why you brought him into the discussion. His evidence showed that Nevill couldn't have used the phone after the first four shots into him, but as you now accept, that has no bearing on my suggestion; which is that Nevill could have used the phone before anyone was shot.
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Both the prosecution and defence say Nevill would have only called Jeremy and the police after the opening bedroom shots.
How did they know that?
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How did they know that?
They don't. They were going on what Nevill said, the call only lasting around 4 seconds & the line then going dead.
They both believe it is not credible that the call was made prior to shots being fired.
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They don't. They were going on what Nevill said, the call only lasting around 4 seconds & the line then going dead.
They both believe it is not credible that the call was made prior to shots being fired.
There were plenty of assumptions in this case then. How Nevill behaved depends on what he thought was happening. If he thought Sheila was likely to harm herself he would behave differently than if he thought she was going to harm others.
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Why are you being pedantic?
Jeremy was convicted of the murders after being found guilty, and has lost all appeals since then, which means there is no doubt whatsoever that he’s guilty
No, it doesn't! It means the jury and the appeal judges believed him to be guilty.
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You have two eyes? You have seen that blood roll from her mouth horizontally? You can see that it has rolled back down her face from her nose and into her eye. Now please tell me how this can occur if her head is 'propped up'? Ismail is only talking about when she was shot and he states that someone moved her 'afterwards' - however, from the blood on her face, it could NOT have been the police. Your own sited evidence has tied you in knots and I think you realise that - Ismail made no indication that the police moved Sheila and what he said, isn't supporting your argument.
It is not possible to determine from the soc images under what circumstances the blood on SC's face appeared.
One possibility is that blood pooled internally and when SC was pulled by her feet her head propped up against the bedside cabinet dropped to the floor causing blood to leak from orifices as depicted on soc images.
Of course Martyn Ismail made no reference to police officers moving SC at soc as he would expect if this happened the police to fess up. Since they did not fess up it would not even feature on his radar.
As Chief Sup Mick Gradwell said in the following, at 8 mins in, if EP damaged the scene and then staged it to make it look like it did originally and haven't disclosed it is "really, really serious"
https://youtu.be/yPRd912xv9M
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'Purge'? Are you SERIOUS? It does indeed emit from orifices after death, 3 - 5 days later! There is n o way that blood can defy gravity as you describe. Given that 'purge' is the result of purification, the idea that this happens a few hours after death is just silly. I thought you had studied this stuff? Blood is leaving from Sheila's mouth but swapping blood for surge still leaves you with the FACT that liquid cannot defy the laws of gravity and for her head to be propped up, it would have ran DOWN her face, not up.
Decomposition is not a one size fits all, many factors influence it, and you do not know what effect, if any, SC's pharmacology had on it.
Martyn Ismail is clear that upon infliction of the second gsw SC's head fell back against the bedside cabinet. At circa 7.30 pm A/PS Woodcock also observed SC's head propped up against the bedside cabinet. At circa 10.30 pm soc images show her head flat to the floor. What happened between 7.30 pm to 10.30 pm? It certainly wasn't JB who staged soc as he was outside with EP.
MI's evidence explains why those first at soc who also left early report seeing one gsw ie when her head was propped up against the bedside cabinet it concealed the upper gsw. Those who arrived and/or left later report seeing two gsw's because when she was pulled by her feet and her head fell flat to the floor the upper gsw was revealed.
It also explains that the large blood stain on the carpet under the bible in the soc image doesn't correspond with the blood staining under SC's armpit. Whereas it would if her head was propped up against the bedside cabinet. Same for the blood staining on the bible ie the large stain should correspond with the large stain on the carpet which no doubt it did before it was moved around by EP.
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Have you never considered the same regarding your own “theories”?
?
Which of my theories contradict expert opinion?
Definition of expert being high level qualifications ie degree or equivalent in subject relevant to expertise.
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Apologies — you’re right
Nevill’s blood was indeed on the stairwell, which again proves he was walking downstairs before he was finally killed
It deeply suggests that that when Jeremy snuck in through the window the Bamber’s woke up, probably due to Crispy barking (hence Jeremys deep hatred for the “yapping” dog) and Nevill had probably already got out of bed to investigate and was shot at the top of the staircase
It all makes sense now
NB's blood group was found on a piece of wallpaper in the hall.
None of NB's blood was found in the bedroom. Two tiny stains on the landing were identified as 'A' group; NB's group was 'O'.
The facial wounds produced heavy blood loss internally and externally. Had NB sustained any gsw's in the bedroom blood would have presented in the bedroom and landing but it doesn't because he was shot on the landing and blood started to drip on the carpet when he reached the main staircase.
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The general consensus, is that on the balance of probabilities it was extremely unlikely that Nevill would have called his wastrel son for help instead of simply disarming Sheila or even calling the police. In fact Jeremy would be the last person he would call for help considering he had recently told Barbara Wilson he feared him.
The likelihood becomes even less if you presume that no shots have been fired yet.
The idea of the phone call was to give Jeremy an alibi, and it totally backfired on him.
It is well documented by NB's niece, Jackie Woods, and CC that the Bamber's were very private people who never discussed family matters outside the family. This begs the question why NB would sit around gossiping with his secretary who at the time was young enough to be his daughter.
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I don’t need to prove Nevill wasn’t making any phone calls — the pathologist proved that 😌
No he didn't given by his own admission he did not know the sequence of shootings.
To date a reconstruction hasn't taken place. When it does imo it will show NB was shot on the landing stairs meaning he could have made the call to JB before he was shot.
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It is not possible to determine from the soc images under what circumstances the blood on SC's face appeared.
One possibility is that blood pooled internally and when SC was pulled by her feet her head propped up against the bedside cabinet dropped to the floor causing blood to leak from orifices as depicted on soc images.
Of course Martyn Ismail made no reference to police officers moving SC at soc as he would expect if this happened the police to fess up. Since they did not fess up it would not even feature on his radar.
As Chief Sup Mick Gradwell said in the following, at 8 mins in, if EP damaged the scene and then staged it to make it look like it did originally and haven't disclosed it is "really, really serious"
https://youtu.be/yPRd912xv9M
It took you days to come up with that but that's not possible given that the person you rely on for the head still being propped up also described the blood leaking from her mouth. Give it up Holly - on this you are just wrong, even Vanezis stated that hypostasis was consistent with the way her body was found. I'm not really interested in anything made bay Eric A,he still thinks police were in conversation with someone inside the farmhouse.
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No he didn't given by his own admission he did not know the sequence of shootings.
To date a reconstruction hasn't taken place. When it does imo it will show NB was shot on the landing stairs meaning he could have made the call to JB before he was shot.
But he didn't and there is no reason why he would.
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It is well documented by NB's niece, Jackie Woods, and CC that the Bamber's were very private people who never discussed family matters outside the family. This begs the question why NB would sit around gossiping with his secretary who at the time was young enough to be his daughter.
Because he clearly trusted her. The private thing has been used to twist the bounds of what he just common sense - like calling the police when in danger. It's nuts.
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Decomposition is not a one size fits all, many factors influence it, and you do not know what effect, if any, SC's pharmacology had on it.
Martyn Ismail is clear that upon infliction of the second gsw SC's head fell back against the bedside cabinet. At circa 7.30 pm A/PS Woodcock also observed SC's head propped up against the bedside cabinet. At circa 10.30 pm soc images show her head flat to the floor. What happened between 7.30 pm to 10.30 pm? It certainly wasn't JB who staged soc as he was outside with EP.
MI's evidence explains why those first at soc who also left early report seeing one gsw ie when her head was propped up against the bedside cabinet it concealed the upper gsw. Those who arrived and/or left later report seeing two gsw's because when she was pulled by her feet and her head fell flat to the floor the upper gsw was revealed.
It also explains that the large blood stain on the carpet under the bible in the soc image doesn't correspond with the blood staining under SC's armpit. Whereas it would if her head was propped up against the bedside cabinet. Same for the blood staining on the bible ie the large stain should correspond with the large stain on the carpet which no doubt it did before it was moved around by EP.
I thought you were interested in facts? Trying to say that Sheila was in a stage of decomposition only hours after death, enough to produce purge is just silly - especially as you're also trying to argue that she died last! Come on Holly, you can do better than that - this isn't A team stuff, it's not even XYZ team stuff!
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It is well documented by NB's niece, Jackie Woods, and CC that the Bamber's were very private people who never discussed family matters outside the family. This begs the question why NB would sit around gossiping with his secretary who at the time was young enough to be his daughter.
The obvious answer is that she was a good listener, he felt heard, and he trusted her. People often feel inclined to share things with outsiders that they wouldn't dream of sharing with their families.
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It took you days to come up with that but that's not possible given that the person you rely on for the head still being propped up also described the blood leaking from her mouth. Give it up Holly - on this you are just wrong, even Vanezis stated that hypostasis was consistent with the way her body was found. I'm not really interested in anything made bay Eric A,he still thinks police were in conversation with someone inside the farmhouse.
No it reinforces my view that A/PS Woodcock observed SC's head propped against the bedside cabinet and as he was still present at soc long after other members of raid team left he also observed SC after she was pulled by her feet resulting in blood leaking from orifices as depicted on soc images.
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I thought you were interested in facts? Trying to say that Sheila was in a stage of decomposition only hours after death, enough to produce purge is just silly - especially as you're also trying to argue that she died last! Come on Holly, you can do better than that - this isn't A team stuff, it's not even XYZ team stuff!
Putrefication isn't a one size fits all and if someone is taking prescribed medication this can speed up or slow down the process.
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Putrefication isn't a one size fits all and if someone is taking prescribed medication this can speed up or slow down the process.
In which case, the mean average would have to be the yard-stick.
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Putrefication isn't a one size fits all and if someone is taking prescribed medication this can speed up or slow down the process.
Has there been a paper published that on the balance of probabilities this would the case here? and which way did it find with the particular medication Sheila was on?
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No it reinforces my view that A/PS Woodcock observed SC's head propped against the bedside cabinet and as he was still present at soc long after other members of raid team left he also observed SC after she was pulled by her feet resulting in blood leaking from orifices as depicted on soc images.
Then you are contradicting your own earlier post. You can not reconcile the blood trails with what you are saying, they are at odds. The blood could NOT have followed Woodcock’s alleged observation because he noted both the blood trails and their direction. Her head could not have been propped up because that would defy the laws of gravity!
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Putrefication isn't a one size fits all and if someone is taking prescribed medication this can speed up or slow down the process.
Now you’re using the fact that she was medicated to your advantage? It may well speed up the process but your argument that it would occur that quickly is beyond the pale!
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My apologies in advance. I know this is off topic, but apropos of much of what I think I'm looking at here, I'm quoting from "Defending The Guilty" by Alex McBride, a criminal barrister "It doesn't matter that the evidence is overwhelming - or whether he did it or not. All we're interested in is "How can we get him off". "
For a long time now, it's occurred to me that Jeremy's defence could have done a better job. Given that it was SUCH a high profile case, I'd have thought they'd have pulled out all the stops. Maybe they'd have preferred it to have been heard at the Bailey? Maybe they found Jeremy difficult? Maybe what he was telling them didn't fit with what information they had? MAYBE they realized they didn't stand a chance of getting him off?? That being said, it's emerged that there are those wanting to take up where they left off.
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Has there been a paper published that on the balance of probabilities this would the case here? and which way did it find with the particular medication Sheila was on?
Purification doesn’t happen within hours.
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Purification doesn’t happen within hours.
And besides, I think Venezis would know the difference between blood and purge and he might have noticed that he body was decomposing. I think it might have warranted a mention.
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And besides, I think Venezis would know the difference between blood and purge and he might have noticed that he body was decomposing. I think it might have warranted a mention.
And mention of her medication -wasn't it only Haloperidol?- being responsible for why decomposition had occurred so quickly.
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And mention of her medication -wasn't it only Haloperidol?- being responsible for why decomposition had occurred so quickly.
No need to mention it as it didn't happen.
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Has there been a paper published that on the balance of probabilities this would the case here? and which way did it find with the particular medication Sheila was on?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/14947773/
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And besides, I think Venezis would know the difference between blood and purge and he might have noticed that he body was decomposing. I think it might have warranted a mention.
This is Vanezis you choose to believe when it suits but when his theories don't suit ie SC's hands uncontaminated by blood you choose to ignore him as it fits your bible theory!
Do you now accept SC's palms were uncontaminated by blood thus rendering your palm print theory obsolete?
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This is Vanezis you choose to believe when it suits but when his theories don't suit ie SC's hands uncontaminated by blood you choose to ignore him as it fits your bible theory!
Do you now accept SC's palms were uncontaminated by blood thus rendering your palm print theory obsolete?
The that makes two of us but the evidence doesn't support Sheila's head being propped up.
I do still believe that Sheila's hands were contaminated with blood because that is what he initially said.
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The that makes two of us but the evidence doesn't support Sheila's head being propped up.
What evidence supports her head flat to the floor?
still believe that Sheila's hands were contaminated with blood because that is what he initially said.
He said as much in his handwritten notes but at trial he was quite clear that her hands were uncontaminated. Do you believe he perjued himself at trial?
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What evidence supports her head flat to the floor?
He said as much in his handwritten notes but at trial he was quite clear that her hands were uncontaminated. Do you believe he perjued himself at trial?
The blood trails on her face support her head being flat to the floor, the same blood trails described by Woodcock.
I don't believe he perjured himself but this is what he says now about that very discrepency;
"Asked to address the discrepancy today, Vanezis muses: ‘I’m not sure whether I said that after the blood had been washed from her hands.’ Regarding his courtroom statement about the stain on her nightdress, he reflects: ‘The smear in the blood on her neck wounds is obviously from putting her hand up to it. Her fingers could then have made the marks on her nightdress because there are three streaks forming the stain – two together and one slightly apart. The marks could be from her wrist, but the thickness of them definitely resembles fingers and she certainly has some blood on the side of her hand. There’s also a line through the streaks where the material has folded, giving a slightly distorted pattern.’ The blood trails evident on Sheila’s lower right arm, together with substantial blood staining on the right side of the nightdress in the armpit area and below, reinforced the probability that she had raised her hand to her neck. The lower wound on the right"
Lee, Carol Ann. The Murders at White House Farm: Jeremy Bamber and the killing of his family. The definitive investigation. (pp. 194-195). Pan Macmillan. Kindle Edition.
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Jeremy said that Nevill called around 03:10, the 03:25 call is supposed to be when Nevill called the police. This is a recent claim, prior to the notion of Nevill calling the police 03:25 was when Jeremy argued that he himself called the police. Now he's claiming he called them at 03:36.
Thank you, I made a mistake on the timings
So Jeremy didn’t phone the police for 15 minutes after the alleged call from Nevill who supposedly sounded terrified and asked Jeremy to come over?
We all know that had Nevill really phoned JB, the first thing he’d have done was call 999 to go to the farm urgently, then quickly pulled his jeans/top on, and tore off in his car to the farm. He’d have got there in about five minutes
His lies are ridiculous
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/14947773/
Ok thanks for that,a paper from 1952,hardly up to date.
So secondly did the pathologist at the post mortem of Sheila make any reference to her body seemingly decomposing faster than the others,if not you're using reasons beyond reason itself to try and convince that the child killer Bamber is innocent.
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Thank you, I made a mistake on the timings
So Jeremy didn’t phone the police for 15 minutes after the alleged call from Nevill who supposedly sounded terrified and asked Jeremy to come over?
We all know that had Nevill really phoned JB, the first thing he’d have done was call 999 to go to the farm urgently, then quickly pulled his jeans/top on, and tore off in his car to the farm. He’d have got there in about five minutes
His lies are ridiculous
Because Jeremy was working from a script, cold, he failed to realize that our subsequent actions are frequently prompted by the person we're in conversation with, ie we respond to their mood. Ergo, if the person with whom we're in conversation sounds terrified/panicked, we pick up on the mood and act quickly to alleviate it.
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I wondered why you brought him into the discussion. His evidence showed that Nevill couldn't have used the phone after the first four shots into him, but as you now accept, that has no bearing on my suggestion; which is that Nevill could have used the phone before anyone was shot.
Your suggestion is wrong, though, so why on earth do think I’ve accepted your ridiculous assumptions?
Nevill never phoned anyone: his bedroom phone was downstairs which Jeremy put there after hiding the kitchen phone under a pile of magazines
Nevill was shot UPSTAIRS
So your suggestion is ludicrous
And the reason I brought Vanezis into the conversation was to try to get through to you the findings, which you’re unable to assimilate
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There were plenty of assumptions in this case then. How Nevill behaved depends on what he thought was happening. If he thought Sheila was likely to harm herself he would behave differently than if he thought she was going to harm others.
That has to be the most ridiculous comment I’ve read
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No, it doesn't! It means the jury and the appeal judges believed him to be guilty.
Rightly so
Who else could convict him?
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Decomposition is not a one size fits all, many factors influence it, and you do not know what effect, if any, SC's pharmacology had on it.
Martyn Ismail is clear that upon infliction of the second gsw SC's head fell back against the bedside cabinet. At circa 7.30 pm A/PS Woodcock also observed SC's head propped up against the bedside cabinet. At circa 10.30 pm soc images show her head flat to the floor. What happened between 7.30 pm to 10.30 pm? It certainly wasn't JB who staged soc as he was outside with EP.
MI's evidence explains why those first at soc who also left early report seeing one gsw ie when her head was propped up against the bedside cabinet it concealed the upper gsw. Those who arrived and/or left later report seeing two gsw's because when she was pulled by her feet and her head fell flat to the floor the upper gsw was revealed.
It also explains that the large blood stain on the carpet under the bible in the soc image doesn't correspond with the blood staining under SC's armpit. Whereas it would if her head was propped up against the bedside cabinet. Same for the blood staining on the bible ie the large stain should correspond with the large stain on the carpet which no doubt it did before it was moved around by EP.
Every single thing you’ve said goes against what the highly regarded Consultant Pathologist said when revealing his findings
He said Sheila died where she [/b]fell
Sheila had severe mottling of the skin in her left arm which meant she died in the position she was found. Jeremy clearly pulled her along a little, as her nightdress proves: he did that so as to position the gun on her lap in which he thought would appear like she’d shot herself
All these conspiracy theories that Essex Police moved her body from the bed, or further from the bedside cabinet is ridiculous
Why on Earth would the police DO that?
They had no reason to, not to mention it was teaming with police and you can’t tell me if one of them suddenly thought he’d move her body for some strange reason, the other police there would have thought he’d gone mad himself
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No he didn't given by his own admission he did not know the sequence of shootings.
To date a reconstruction hasn't taken place. When it does imo it will show NB was shot on the landing stairs meaning he could have made the call to JB before he was shot.
No he couldn’t have made any calls from upstairs — Jeremy had already disabled the line
So although the highly experienced pathologist obviously couldn’t give an exact sequence of shootings, due to his vast knowledge and experience, including being privy to all the FACTS, he was able to determine that Nevill could NOT have spoken after being shot in mouth.
Thus, as Jeremy had disabled the telephone line prior to creeping upstairs to shoot all his family dead, it would have been impossible for Nevill to have made any telephone call
As for suggesting they should do a reconstruction almost 35 years later, when not just the victims but many of the witnesses/police are possibly dead too; not forgetting the fact Jeremy was found guilty; has lost all appeals, attempts for leave to appeal, lost his appeal in the European Court of Human Rights, and has told lie after lie after lie making out he’s found new evidence which is all rubbish, why would anyone in their right mind do a reconstruction?
Even if they DID it wouldn’t prove a thing: it would all be conjecture
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Putrefication isn't a one size fits all and if someone is taking prescribed medication this can speed up or slow down the process.
But Vanezis never noted Putrefication
So why even mention it?
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Your suggestion is wrong, though, so why on earth do think I’ve accepted your ridiculous assumptions?
Nevill never phoned anyone: his bedroom phone was downstairs which Jeremy put there after hiding the kitchen phone under a pile of magazines
Nevill was shot UPSTAIRS
So your suggestion is ludicrous
And the reason I brought Vanezis into the conversation was to try to get through to you the findings, which you’re unable to assimilate
I have made no ridiculous assumptions or ludicrous suggestions. I have explored the possibility that Nevill Bamber used the phone in the kitchen BEFORE any shots were fired, which means BEFORE he went upstairs and was shot. I have seen no evidence which rules out that possibility. Vanezis' findings have nothing to say about it as you admitted.
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My apologies in advance. I know this is off topic, but apropos of much of what I think I'm looking at here, I'm quoting from "Defending The Guilty" by Alex McBride, a criminal barrister "It doesn't matter that the evidence is overwhelming - or whether he did it or not. All we're interested in is "How can we get him off". "
For a long time now, it's occurred to me that Jeremy's defence could have done a better job. Given that it was SUCH a high profile case, I'd have thought they'd have pulled out all the stops. Maybe they'd have preferred it to have been heard at the Bailey? Maybe they found Jeremy difficult? Maybe what he was telling them didn't fit with what information they had? MAYBE they realized they didn't stand a chance of getting him off?? That being said, it's emerged that there are those wanting to take up where they left off.
I read that his defence barrister didn’t like Jeremy and was reluctant to represent him as he believed Jeremy was indeed guilty.
It must have been a difficult case to defend as there was such overwhelming evidence against him, so maybe the barrister couldn’t even think of a way to get him off
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I have made no ridiculous assumptions or ludicrous suggestions. I have explored the possibility that Nevill Bamber used the phone in the kitchen BEFORE any shots were fired, which means BEFORE he went upstairs and was shot. I have seen no evidence which rules out that possibility. Vanezis' findings have nothing to say about it as you admitted.
You’re not getting it are you?
Nevill would not have wanted to leave Sheila alone upstairs, going berserk with a gun
Furthermore, it’s been proven that Nevill was shot UPSTAIRS first, so he’d hardly leave a deranged, crazy murderer alone with a rifle. He’d have fought her upstairs, not gone into the kitchen
And HAD he gone for the phone, which had been removed from the bedroom, it would’ve been absolutely covered in blood
And I’ll bring Vanezis in again: he stated that Nevill would NOT have been bake to TALK
I’m not repeating this again...so I’ll leave that there for you to muse over
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You’re not getting it are you?
Nevill would not have wanted to leave Sheila alone upstairs, going berserk with a gun
Furthermore, it’s been proven that Nevill was shot UPSTAIRS first, so he’d hardly leave a deranged, crazy murderer alone with a rifle. He’d have fought her upstairs, not gone into the kitchen
And HAD he gone for the phone, which had been removed from the bedroom, it would’ve been absolutely covered in blood
And I’ll bring Vanezis in again: he stated that Nevill would NOT have been bake to TALK
I’m not repeating this again...so I’ll leave that there for you to muse over
Neither of us are getting the others point, are we?
You say 'Nevill would not have wanted to leave Sheila alone upstairs, going berserk with a gun
Furthermore, it’s been proven that Nevill was shot UPSTAIRS first, so he’d hardly leave a deranged, crazy murderer alone with a rifle. He’d have fought her upstairs, not gone into the kitchen'
Please provide evidence that Sheila was upstairs when the alleged phone call was made.
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I have made no ridiculous assumptions or ludicrous suggestions. I have explored the possibility that Nevill Bamber used the phone in the kitchen BEFORE any shots were fired, which means BEFORE he went upstairs and was shot. I have seen no evidence which rules out that possibility. Vanezis' findings have nothing to say about it as you admitted.
I find it stretches belief to the realms of disbelief imagining that Nevill would allow Sheila to leave the room in which she had "gone berserk and got hold of the gun". The suggestion he would risk that happening to phone Jeremy -ANYONE!!- who may, or not, pick up the phone, appears ludicrous.
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Neither of us are getting the others point, are we?
You say 'Nevill would not have wanted to leave Sheila alone upstairs, going berserk with a gun
Furthermore, it’s been proven that Nevill was shot UPSTAIRS first, so he’d hardly leave a deranged, crazy murderer alone with a rifle. He’d have fought her upstairs, not gone into the kitchen'
Please provide evidence that Sheila was upstairs when the alleged phone call was made.
You’ve obviously scant knowledge of the whole thing
Sheila had:
NO GLASS on her feet
NO SUGAR on her feet
NO BLOOD on her feet
If you’re unable to work out that means she could NOT have fought Nevill in the kitchen, you shouldn’t tax your brain further..
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Ok thanks for that,a paper from 1952,hardly up to date.
So secondly did the pathologist at the post mortem of Sheila make any reference to her body seemingly decomposing faster than the others,if not you're using reasons beyond reason itself to try and convince that the child killer Bamber is innocent.
Of course he didn't because the suggestion is ridiculous.
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I find it stretches belief to the realms of disbelief imagining that Nevill would allow Sheila to leave the room in which she had "gone berserk and got hold of the gun". The suggestion he would risk that happening to phone Jeremy -ANYONE!!- who may, or not, pick up the phone, appears ludicrous.
I do wish people wouldn't speculate as to what Nevill would or wouldn''t do. It is also possible that Sheila was threatening suicide and had locked herself into the downstairs shower room with the gun, is it not? If Nevill was unable to get her to come out he may well have decided to phone for help. Upon which she emerged and went upstairs. Now we have a possible reason why the phone was left off the hook as Nevill heard her and set off in pursuit.
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You’ve obviously scant knowledge of the whole thing
Sheila had:
NO GLASS on her feet
NO SUGAR on her feet
NO BLOOD on her feet
If you’re unable to work out that means she could NOT have fought Nevill in the kitchen, you shouldn’t tax your brain further..
Do you know whether the slippers in Sheila's room were examined?
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I do wish people wouldn't speculate as to what Nevill would or wouldn''t do. It is also possible that Sheila was threatening suicide and had locked herself into the downstairs shower room with the gun, is it not? If Nevill was unable to get her to come out he may well have decided to phone for help. Upon which she emerged and went upstairs. Now we have a possible reason why the phone was left off the hook as Nevill heard her and set off in pursuit.
You're speculating that he made the call and about Sheila locking herself in a cupboard. There is no reason why he would have left her in a cupboard to call Jeremy when his wife was upstairs. There was no call.
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Do you know whether the slippers in Sheila's room were examined?
They were mens slippers.
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You're speculating that he made the call and about Sheila locking herself in a cupboard. There is no reason why he would have left her in a cupboard to call Jeremy when his wife was upstairs. There was no call.
No evidence has been offered to explain why the phone call couldn't have happened. All that has been offered is speculation. Anyone can speculate so I decided to demonstrate that I can do it too.
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They were mens slippers.
Were they examined?
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What is certain is that Sheila had the gun when Nevill phoned Jeremy. Who says so? Jeremy.
There is no credible situation where Nevill would phone Jeremy in this situation. After he had been shot 4 times upstairs, is too late. Before any shots were fired do not match the words Nevill said -'gone crazy'.
David on the Blue forum suggested Nevill rushed downstairs to phone Jeremy after Sheila started shooting the twins. June remaining in bed & Sheila saving 4 bullets for Nevill when he returned upstairs.
The CT have never said at what stage Nevill called the police.
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Jeremy believes Nevill phoned him after Nevill had been shot 4 times.
This was the defence stance at trial. I have never read any other suggestion from the CT.
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Were they examined?
No idea but don't let that be used as an excuse to say they weren't.
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No evidence has been offered to explain why the phone call couldn't have happened. All that has been offered is speculation. Anyone can speculate so I decided to demonstrate that I can do it too.
But there's speculation and speculation, ie that which only works when taken out of context with known facts, and that which, taking the known facts into consideration, is probable
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Jeremy believes Nevill phoned him after Nevill had been shot 4 times.
This was the defence stance at trial. I have never read any other suggestion from the CT.
Do you have a link to this evidence please?
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But there's speculation and speculation, ie that which only works when taken out of context with known facts, and that which, taking the known facts into consideration, is probable
So which known facts uphold the speculations about what Nevill Bamber thought and did, and which don't uphold my speculations?
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Do you have a link to this evidence please?
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10200.msg478128.html#msg478128
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So which known facts uphold the speculations about what Nevill Bamber thought and did, and which don't uphold my speculations?
Those which made sense, ie those which helped convict Jeremy, when balanced against those which didn't.
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Both the defence and prosecution have to go by the known facts and claimed facts -
Nevill called Jeremy. Claimed fact.
Nevill said 'please come over. Sheila's gone crazy and she's got the gun'. Claimed fact.
The phone went dead. Claimed fact.
Nevill was still alive after being shot 4 times upstairs. He went downstairs. Fact.
A phone in the kitchen was off the hook. Fact.
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Going by the claimed and agreed facts, Nevill could only have called Jeremy after receiving his 4 upstairs shots
Nevill letting Sheila go upstairs with the rifle or Sheila locking herself in a shower room do not match the claimed or agreed facts.
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10200.msg478128.html#msg478128
That's a link to a post made by you, I assume. Where is the original evidence you claim to be quoting?
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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html&ved=2ahUKEwi-zo2knIvoAhVSt3EKHSahBaIQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3_he1NUdt-LIv3JGVUZ6T9
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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html&ved=2ahUKEwi-zo2knIvoAhVSt3EKHSahBaIQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3_he1NUdt-LIv3JGVUZ6T9
I'm really sorry, but that's a very long document. Would it be possible to copy and paste the passage where the defence says "Jeremy believes Nevill phoned him after Nevill had been shot 4 times." as per your original post?
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I'm really sorry, but that's a very long document. Would it be possible to copy and paste the passage where the defence says "Jeremy believes Nevill phoned him after Nevill had been shot 4 times." as per your original post?
I have already posted it in reply 634.
The defence had the chance to counter the prosecution and say Nevill could have phoned Jeremy before being shot. But didn't.
I have never read the CT suggest Nevill may have phoned Jeremy prior to being shot.
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Do you know whether the slippers in Sheila's room were examined?
Of course they would have been
How can you think otherwise?!
It was NOTED there was no blood, sugar or glass on her feet, so do you seriously think they wouldn’t have checked all her footwear?
Really?
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I do wish people wouldn't speculate as to what Nevill would or wouldn''t do. It is also possible that Sheila was threatening suicide and had locked herself into the downstairs shower room with the gun, is it not? If Nevill was unable to get her to come out he may well have decided to phone for help. Upon which she emerged and went upstairs. Now we have a possible reason why the phone was left off the hook as Nevill heard her and set off in pursuit.
You have a weird imagination
That scenario you’re trying to suggest is almost as stupid as when Jeremy suggested Crispy shot Sheila the second time!
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Do you know whether the slippers in Sheila's room were examined?
Look, you obviously haven’t read much of the case and all the facts
Stop harping in trying to make out Sheila wore slippers
The police weren’t THAT thick!
They searched the whole house and found NO clothes with Sheilas blood on, and NO footwear with blood on
Give up, it’s tedious
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You have a weird imagination
That scenario you’re trying to suggest is almost as stupid as when Jeremy suggested Crispy shot Sheila the second time!
There's no call to be insulting. Sheila Caffell was a very disturbed and emotionally unstable woman. Her efforts to be independent had failed miserably and now her mother wanted her to enter some sort of home in Bournemouth. That's a fout hour drive from her parents and a two hour drive from her children. It certainly isn't stupid to suggest that she had some type of breakdown that night. Her future wasn't looking bright.
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I have already posted it in reply 634.
The defence had the chance to counter the prosecution and say Nevill could have phoned Jeremy before being shot. But didn't.
I have never read the CT suggest Nevill may have phoned Jeremy prior to being shot.
So because the defence didn't suggest something you deduce it couldn't have happened?
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So because the defence didn't suggest something you deduce it couldn't have happened?
If Nevill was shot 4 times before making the phonecall how come he managed to do so without leaving a trace of his blood on the phone?
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So because the defence didn't suggest something you deduce it couldn't have happened?
Well neither the prosecution or defence believed it was realistic to suggest Nevill rang Jeremy pre rifle shots. For reasons previously mentioned.
If Nevill had the freedom to use the telephone before shots had been fired, he would have disarmed Sheila instead.
How do you believe Sheila could have committed the massacre? You would need to include the magazine attachment, two reloads, a kitchen fight and 1/2 phone calls.
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Look, you obviously haven’t read much of the case and all the facts
Stop harping in trying to make out Sheila wore slippers
The police weren’t THAT thick!
They searched the whole house and found NO clothes with Sheilas blood on, and NO footwear with blood on
Give up, it’s tedious
I probably don't have as much knowledge as some, but I'm not looking at the whole case. I'm looking only at the possibilty that Nevill Bamber phoned his son, although the thread has wandered off topic somewhat.
Do you have a link to where it says the police searched the whole house please? It would appear that they failed to find the sound moderator, which was a vital piece of the prosecution case, so they weren't all that thorough, were they?
It's easy to stop my 'tedious' questions; give me links to evidence rather than trying to batter me into submission with your opinions.
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Well neither the prosecution or defence believed it was realistic to suggest Nevill rang Jeremy pre rifle shots. For reasons previously mentioned.
If Nevill had the freedom to use the telephone before shots had been fired, he would have disarmed Sheila instead.
How do you believe Sheila could have committed the massacre? You would need to include the magazine attachment, two reloads, a kitchen fight and 1/2 phone calls.
You are still relying on assumptions; no-one actually knows how things developed and why.
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I probably don't have as much knowledge as some, but I'm not looking at the whole case. I'm looking only at the possibilty that Nevill Bamber phoned his son, although the thread has wandered off topic somewhat.
Do you have a link to where it says the police searched the whole house please? It would appear that they failed to find the sound moderator, which was a vital piece of the prosecution case, so they weren't all that thorough, were they?
It's easy to stop my 'tedious' questions; give me links to evidence rather than trying to batter me into submission with your opinions.
I really can't make up my mind if you're pro Jeremy, playing Devil's advocate, or just doing a wind up for the fun of it.
I'm not sure why you're so keen to point the finger at the police for not finding the silencer. Murder/suicide? Certainly. There was the tableau, spread out before them. Every picture and all that. Why would a silencer have been used? So why would they need to get on hands and knees to crawl into the back of the wedge to see what might be there? How the relatives found it still amazes me, but they, knowing Jeremy, had more reasons to suspect him, than, at that stage, did the police.
Such are some of the questions you pose that it's highly likely that there won't be any links available. There appears to be developing a pattern. Each time one of your "tedious" points is answered -rejected- you move the goal-posts. It causes me to wonder if you're 'avin a larf.
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I really can't make up my mind if you're pro Jeremy, playing Devil's advocate, or just doing a wind up for the fun of it.
I'm not sure why you're so keen to point the finger at the police for not finding the silencer. Murder/suicide? Certainly. There was the tableau, spread out before them. Every picture and all that. Why would a silencer have been used? So why would they need to get on hands and knees to crawl into the back of the wedge to see what might be there? How the relatives found it still amazes me, but they, knowing Jeremy, had more reasons to suspect him, than, at that stage, did the police.
Such are some of the questions you pose that it's highly likely that there won't be any links available. There appears to be developing a pattern. Each time one of your "tedious" points is answered -rejected- you move the goal-posts. It causes me to wonder if you're 'avin a larf.
It’s a very well worn tactic that’s been played out on the Madeleine forum for years.
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I really can't make up my mind if you're pro Jeremy, playing Devil's advocate, or just doing a wind up for the fun of it.
I'm not sure why you're so keen to point the finger at the police for not finding the silencer. Murder/suicide? Certainly. There was the tableau, spread out before them. Every picture and all that. Why would a silencer have been used? So why would they need to get on hands and knees to crawl into the back of the wedge to see what might be there? How the relatives found it still amazes me, but they, knowing Jeremy, had more reasons to suspect him, than, at that stage, did the police.
Such are some of the questions you pose that it's highly likely that there won't be any links available. There appears to be developing a pattern. Each time one of your "tedious" points is answered -rejected- you move the goal-posts. It causes me to wonder if you're 'avin a larf.
It's quite simple really. It's true that Nevill Bamber couldn't have used the telephone after being shot, but he could have used it before he was shot. In 44 pages I have seen no evidence which makes that impossible.
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It's quite simple really. It's true that Nevill Bamber couldn't have used the telephone after being shot, but he could have used it before he was shot. In 44 pages I have seen no evidence which makes that impossible.
Neither have I.
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It's quite simple really. It's true that Nevill Bamber couldn't have used the telephone after being shot, but he could have used it before he was shot. In 44 pages I have seen no evidence which makes that impossible.
So we are back to the risible scenario of Nevill squealing for Jeremy before any shooting has taken place.
It isn’t necessary to prove Nevill making the call at all was physically impossible. The point is to prove that it was beyond reasonable doubt that the phone call never took place. I can understand Holly and Mike Tesco disputing the point because they have their own ulterior motives. April has a point, you must be pulling our leg.
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So we are back to the risible scenario of Nevill squealing for Jeremy before any shooting has taken place.
It isn’t necessary to prove Nevill making the call at all was physically impossible. The point is to prove that it was beyond reasonable doubt that the phone call never took place. I can understand Holly and Mike Tesco disputing the point because they have their own ulterior motives. April has a point, you must be pulling our leg.
You say that it's 'ludicrous' to suggest that Nevill would 'squeal' to Jeremy. That tells me nothing about what Nevill and Jeremy's relationship was like, it just tells me what you believe it was like.
OK. Prove beyond reasonable doubt that the phone call never took place.
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You say that it's 'ludicrous' to suggest that Nevill would 'squeal' to Jeremy. That tells me nothing about what Nevill and Jeremy's relationship was like, it just tells me what you believe it was like.
OK. Prove beyond reasonable doubt that the phone call never took place.
No, it tells us what their relationship was actually like based on the facts, not my opinion.
Adam posted this yesterday to assist, then you complained it was too long. Here it is again. Please take the time to read it in it's entirety this time. It shows we are basing our opinions on the facts of the case, and not the walt disney world that Mike Tesko and his other supporters inhabit.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
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You say that it's 'ludicrous' to suggest that Nevill would 'squeal' to Jeremy. That tells me nothing about what Nevill and Jeremy's relationship was like, it just tells me what you believe it was like.
OK. Prove beyond reasonable doubt that the phone call never took place.
Okay, so you seem to be saying that, unless you see confirmation/affirmation? of some of your more "ludicrous" points in black and white, they aren't valid? Am I correct? I can tell you that I'm fairly well surrounded -less so now so much time has passed- by contemporaries with Nevill and June. One in particular has given me very clear descriptions of what they've witnessed between Jeremy and Nevill. Nevill was fully aware that Jeremy couldn't be relied upon to complete a job or do what he was asked, ergo, it makes it extremely unlikely that he'd have called him in a crisis. The only reason you won't see these testaments in black and white is because they were never asked.
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It's quite simple really. It's true that Nevill Bamber couldn't have used the telephone after being shot, but he could have used it before he was shot. In 44 pages I have seen no evidence which makes that impossible.
The COA says -
41.
This injury caused severe fracturing of the jaw, of the teeth in that area and damaged soft tissue in the neck and the larynx. These features of this particular injury and the resultant flow of blood into the mouth meant, in the pathologist's opinion, that Nevill Bamber would not have been able to engage in purposeful talk.
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Nevill only said 9 words in around 4 seconds. The prosecution believe this was possible and more likely after the first 4 shots. They would have also added 'crazy' and 'got the gun' to equal shots fired.
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You say that it's 'ludicrous' to suggest that Nevill would 'squeal' to Jeremy. That tells me nothing about what Nevill and Jeremy's relationship was like, it just tells me what you believe it was like.
OK. Prove beyond reasonable doubt that the phone call never took place.
It cannot be proved whether the phone call took place. Jeremy saying the call took place rounded the suspects down to two.
'Beyond resonable doubt' is then obtained as there are over 60 pieces of forensic evidence from the COA showing it was not Sheila. Together with one alive suspect with motives, opportunity & no alibi. Julie Mugford and circumstantial evidence are also added.
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Okay, so you seem to be saying that, unless you see confirmation/affirmation? of some of your more "ludicrous" points in black and white, they aren't valid? Am I correct? I can tell you that I'm fairly well surrounded -less so now so much time has passed- by contemporaries with Nevill and June. One in particular has given me very clear descriptions of what they've witnessed between Jeremy and Nevill. Nevill was fully aware that Jeremy couldn't be relied upon to complete a job or do what he was asked, ergo, it makes it extremely unlikely that he'd have called him in a crisis. The only reason you won't see these testaments in black and white is because they were never asked.
If you're convinced that's fine. You surely don't really expect others to be convinced by what you've been told by these unnamed individuals?
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If you're convinced that's fine. You surely don't really expect others to be convinced by what you've been told by these unnamed individuals?
No more than I expect some to be convinced by named ones. There's nowt as perverse as folks.
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Of course they would have been
How can you think otherwise?!
It was NOTED there was no blood, sugar or glass on her feet, so do you seriously think they wouldn’t have checked all her footwear?
Really?
The slippers were mens.
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There's no call to be insulting. Sheila Caffell was a very disturbed and emotionally unstable woman. Her efforts to be independent had failed miserably and now her mother wanted her to enter some sort of home in Bournemouth. That's a fout hour drive from her parents and a two hour drive from her children. It certainly isn't stupid to suggest that she had some type of breakdown that night. Her future wasn't looking bright.
It was a convalescent home - not an asylum! She was also an adult and didn't have to go. If she didn't want to go, Colin would have supported her. He had no intention of separating her from her children!
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So because the defence didn't suggest something you deduce it couldn't have happened?
There was no reason for such a call.
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You say that it's 'ludicrous' to suggest that Nevill would 'squeal' to Jeremy. That tells me nothing about what Nevill and Jeremy's relationship was like, it just tells me what you believe it was like.
OK. Prove beyond reasonable doubt that the phone call never took place.
That wouldn't be possible as far as you're concerned. It's unreasonable that Nevill would have called Jeremy. Had he called prior to the shooting, there was no reason to call because he could have de-escalated the situation himself and he also had June to help him. She wouldn't have remained in bed in a situation like that. If the shooting had started, he wouldn't have taken time out to call Jeremy, if anyone, he's have called the police but his main concern would have been to get the gun from Sheila.
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It was a convalescent home - not an asylum! She was also an adult and didn't have to go. If she didn't want to go, Colin would have supported her. He had no intention of separating her from her children!
She had no independent means so her choices were limited. I don't think her ex husband was in a position to support her financially, and neither would he have wanted to. He (or she) who pays the piper calls the tune.
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She had no independent means so her choices were limited. I don't think her ex husband was in a position to support her financially, and neither would he have wanted to. He (or she) who pays the piper calls the tune.
Given that you're all about evidence - please provide evidence that Sheila was being blackmailed into going the the convalescent home? Because that is what you seem to be implying - "go or we will cut you off"?
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So because the defence didn't suggest something you deduce it couldn't have happened?
The reason the defence didn’t suggest Nevill rang Jeremy prior to being shot is that they didn’t want to shine a spotlight on Jeremy’s obvious lie.
You’re suggesting Sheila went berserk with the gun upstairs, then Nevill, instead of disarming her — which he easily could have and most certainly would have — decided to leave his wife and grandchildren in immediate grave danger — walked downstairs also leaving himself an easy target for Sheila to shoot him in the back of his head — and rang Jeremy to ask himto disarm Sheila instead. And you expect people to believe that?
You’re then suggesting that Nevill left himself an open target by phoning Jeremy, and that Sheila, instead of storming into the kitchen and shooting Nevill dead as he held the phone, managed to march him back upstairs so she could shoot him up there instead?
You’re also suggesting that Sheila was going berserk yet when she saw Nevill speaking on the phone, she didn’t shout in a crazy fashion; didn’t say a word; Jeremy didn’t hear a whisper coming from his “deranged sister”, she just gently and quietly cut the call off with one hand...
And you’re suggesting she did that while holding that long rifle in just one hand, giving Nevill such easy opportunity to disarm her, but instead of swiftly disarming her he allowed her to march him back upstairs because he was going to wait for brave Jeremy to force his way into the locked house and disarm Sheila instead.
You’re then suggesting that after Sheila shot Nevill four times having forced him back upstairs, he ran back down again — seriously injured with blood pouring into his mouth, neck, and with a shot shoulder — and it was only then that Nevill decided to put up a huge fight and try to get the gun off her?
You’re suggesting Nevill didn’t take that opportunity when supposedly phoning Jeremy, whilst uninjured to overpower Sheila as she placed her hand on that telephone cradle leaving herself almost disarmed with the gun in just onehand?
You’re suggesting this utterly ludicrous scenario because you want to believe Nevill rang Jeremy, when it’s blindingly obvious he did not.
And that, G-unit, is exactly why the defence didn’t touch on it — because they knew Jeremy’s lie about Nevill phoning him would be shot down in flames.
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The reason the defence didn’t suggest Nevill rang Jeremy prior to being shot is that they didn’t want to shine a spotlight on Jeremy’s obvious lie.
You’re suggesting Sheila went berserk with the gun upstairs, then Nevill, instead of disarming her — which he easily could have and most certainly would have — decided to leave his wife and grandchildren in immediate grave danger — walked downstairs also leaving himself an easy target for Sheila to shoot him in the back of his head — and rang Jeremy to ask himto disarm Sheila instead. And you expect people to believe that?
You’re then suggesting that Nevill left himself an open target by phoning Jeremy, and that Sheila, instead of storming into the kitchen and shooting Nevill dead as he held the phone, managed to march him back upstairs so she could shoot him up there instead?
You’re also suggesting that Sheila was going berserk yet when she saw Nevill speaking on the phone, she didn’t shout in a crazy fashion; didn’t say a word; Jeremy didn’t hear a whisper coming from his “deranged sister”, she just gently and quietly cut the call off with one hand...
And you’re suggesting she did that while holding that long rifle in just one hand, giving Nevill such easy opportunity to disarm her, but instead of swiftly disarming her he allowed her to march him back upstairs because he was going to wait for brave Jeremy to force his way into the locked house and disarm Sheila instead.
You’re then suggesting that after Sheila shot Nevill four times having forced him back upstairs, he ran back down again — seriously injured with blood pouring into his mouth, neck, and with a shot shoulder — and it was only then that Nevill decided to put up a huge fight and try to get the gun off her?
You’re suggesting Nevill didn’t take that opportunity when supposedly phoning Jeremy, whilst uninjured to overpower Sheila as she placed her hand on that telephone cradle leaving herself almost disarmed with the gun in just onehand?
You’re suggesting this utterly ludicrous scenario because you want to believe Nevill rang Jeremy, when it’s blindingly obvious he did not.
And that, G-unit, is exactly why the defence didn’t touch on it — because they knew Jeremy’s lie about Nevill phoning him would be shot down in flames.
An excellent summation. Jeremy had has had almost 35 years to dream up these alternative scenarios but the problem for him is that only one works. The one where HE MURDERED HIS FAMILY BUT WANTS TO PIN THE BLAME ON SHEILA.
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The reason the defence didn’t suggest Nevill rang Jeremy prior to being shot is that they didn’t want to shine a spotlight on Jeremy’s obvious lie.
You’re suggesting Sheila went berserk with the gun upstairs, then Nevill, instead of disarming her — which he easily could have and most certainly would have — decided to leave his wife and grandchildren in immediate grave danger — walked downstairs also leaving himself an easy target for Sheila to shoot him in the back of his head — and rang Jeremy to ask himto disarm Sheila instead. And you expect people to believe that?
I didn't say Sheila was upstairs and Nevill went down and left her there. I can see a scenario where they were downstairs together having a discussion which became heated. It culminated in Sheila getting the gun and took it into one of the downstairs rooms threatening self-harm.
You’re then suggesting that Nevill left himself an open target by phoning Jeremy, and that Sheila, instead of storming into the kitchen and shooting Nevill dead as he held the phone, managed to march him back upstairs so she could shoot him up there instead?
No. Nevill phoned Jeremy because he couldn't talk Sheila out. She did come out when he was phoning and went upstairs.
You’re also suggesting that Sheila was going berserk yet when she saw Nevill speaking on the phone, she didn’t shout in a crazy fashion; didn’t say a word; Jeremy didn’t hear a whisper coming from his “deranged sister”, she just gently and quietly cut the call off with one hand...
She wasn't in the kitchen. When she ran upstairs Nevill put the phone down and followed her.
And you’re suggesting she did that while holding that long rifle in just one hand, giving Nevill such easy opportunity to disarm her, but instead of swiftly disarming her he allowed her to march him back upstairs because he was going to wait for brave Jeremy to force his way into the locked house and disarm Sheila instead.
You’re then suggesting that after Sheila shot Nevill four times having forced him back upstairs, he ran back down again — seriously injured with blood pouring into his mouth, neck, and with a shot shoulder — and it was only then that Nevill decided to put up a huge fight and try to get the gun off her?
(&^&
You’re suggesting Nevill didn’t take that opportunity when supposedly phoning Jeremy, whilst uninjured to overpower Sheila as she placed her hand on that telephone cradle leaving herself almost disarmed with the gun in just onehand?
You’re suggesting this utterly ludicrous scenario because you want to believe Nevill rang Jeremy, when it’s blindingly obvious he did not.
And that, G-unit, is exactly why the defence didn’t touch on it — because they knew Jeremy’s lie about Nevill phoning him would be shot down in flames.
I have answered your points in bold. Your scenario is indeed ludicrous, but mine isn't imo.
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'She wasn't in the kitchen. When she ran upstairs Nevill put the phone down and followed her'.
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Nevill would not follow Sheila upstairs and let himself get shot twice in the face. From inches away. Then twice in the torso. Then run back downstairs with June still sleeping.
There would have been an upstairs fight.
If Jeremy was the perfect son & brother, there is still no way anyone would ring him at 3am.
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The reason the defence didn’t suggest Nevill rang Jeremy prior to being shot is that they didn’t want to shine a spotlight on Jeremy’s obvious lie.
You’re suggesting Sheila went berserk with the gun upstairs, then Nevill, instead of disarming her — which he easily could have and most certainly would have — decided to leave his wife and grandchildren in immediate grave danger — walked downstairs also leaving himself an easy target for Sheila to shoot him in the back of his head — and rang Jeremy to ask himto disarm Sheila instead. And you expect people to believe that?
You’re then suggesting that Nevill left himself an open target by phoning Jeremy, and that Sheila, instead of storming into the kitchen and shooting Nevill dead as he held the phone, managed to march him back upstairs so she could shoot him up there instead?
You’re also suggesting that Sheila was going berserk yet when she saw Nevill speaking on the phone, she didn’t shout in a crazy fashion; didn’t say a word; Jeremy didn’t hear a whisper coming from his “deranged sister”, she just gently and quietly cut the call off with one hand...
And you’re suggesting she did that while holding that long rifle in just one hand, giving Nevill such easy opportunity to disarm her, but instead of swiftly disarming her he allowed her to march him back upstairs because he was going to wait for brave Jeremy to force his way into the locked house and disarm Sheila instead.
You’re then suggesting that after Sheila shot Nevill four times having forced him back upstairs, he ran back down again — seriously injured with blood pouring into his mouth, neck, and with a shot shoulder — and it was only then that Nevill decided to put up a huge fight and try to get the gun off her?
You’re suggesting Nevill didn’t take that opportunity when supposedly phoning Jeremy, whilst uninjured to overpower Sheila as she placed her hand on that telephone cradle leaving herself almost disarmed with the gun in just onehand?
You’re suggesting this utterly ludicrous scenario because you want to believe Nevill rang Jeremy, when it’s blindingly obvious he did not.
And that, G-unit, is exactly why the defence didn’t touch on it — because they knew Jeremy’s lie about Nevill phoning him would be shot down in flames.
8@??)(
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Given that you're all about evidence - please provide evidence that Sheila was being blackmailed into going the the convalescent home? Because that is what you seem to be implying - "go or we will cut you off"?
I didn't mention blackmail, you did. I don't know what went on between June and her daughter but I do know she made decisions for her. Sheila asked Colin to intervene with her parents to persuade them to change her medication so she was clearly unable to negotiate on her own behalf. I can imagine her fearing that she would end up in Bournemouth if that's what they wanted.
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'She wasn't in the kitchen. When she ran upstairs Nevill put the phone down and followed her'.
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Nevill would not follow Sheila upstairs and let himself get shot twice in the face. From inches away. Then twice in the torso. Then run back downstairs with June still sleeping.
There would have been an upstairs fight.
If Jeremy was the perfect son & brother, there is still no way anyone would ring him at 3am.
If Nevill thought Sheila was intent on harming herself he may well have gone upstairs after her. Whatever occured next and in which order it culminated in him being badly injured and either retreating to the kitchen or being forced down there.
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I didn't mention blackmail, you did. I don't know what went on between June and her daughter but I do know she made decisions for her. Sheila asked Colin to intervene with her parents to persuade them to change her medication so she was clearly unable to negotiate on her own behalf. I can imagine her fearing that she would end up in Bournemouth if that's what they wanted.
I understood that Sheila visited her own gp in London and requested that the dosage could be lowered. The gp then negotiated with her consultant and the dose was subsequently lowered. As an adult, Sheila's medication was nothing to do with her parents. Under the patient confidentiality rules, details of her illness shouldn't have been revealed. It's doubtful that even though they were told the nature of her illness, they were told what she was taking.
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I understood that Sheila visited her own gp in London and requested that the dosage could be lowered. The gp then negotiated with her consultant and the dose was subsequently lowered. As an adult, Sheila's medication was nothing to do with her parents. Under the patient confidentiality rules, details of her illness shouldn't have been revealed. It's doubtful that even though they were told the nature of her illness, they were told what she was taking.
No point in her asking Colin to intervene with her parents then, if they were in the dark about her condition and treatment.
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No point in her asking Colin to intervene with her parents then, if they were in the dark about her condition and treatment.
From whom did you learn that she did?
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I have answered your points in bold. Your scenario is indeed ludicrous, but mine isn't imo.
So Nevll just watched her walk off, grab the gun and attach the magazine?
Why would Nevill call Jeremy to talk Sheila into doing anything? They weren't close!
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I didn't mention blackmail, you did. I don't know what went on between June and her daughter but I do know she made decisions for her. Sheila asked Colin to intervene with her parents to persuade them to change her medication so she was clearly unable to negotiate on her own behalf. I can imagine her fearing that she would end up in Bournemouth if that's what they wanted.
They didn't make decisions for her.
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From whom did you learn that she did?
Just wondering that myself.
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I have answered your points in bold. Your scenario is indeed ludicrous, but mine isn't imo.
You have avoided answering my questions because you can’t. All you’ve done is dreamt up a bizarre senseless scenario, none of which makes sense.
Furthermore, you’re making yourself look even more of a fool by suggesting that for some strange reason, Sheila woke up in the early hours, woke Nevill up without disturbing June who was a very light sleeper, then asked him to go downstairs “for a chat”.
You’re suggesting that the chat became heated — yet June remained in her bed just hearing this heated row going on — and Sheila then got hold of the gun and managed to make it into the bathroom without Nevill overpowering her?
Sheila wouldn’t even have had a chance to get hold of the gun with Nevill stood opposite her, but you’ll refuse to accept that because it blows your ridiculous implausible story into smithereens.
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You have avoided answering my questions because you can’t. All you’ve done is dreamt up a bizarre senseless scenario, none of which makes sense.
Furthermore, you’re making yourself look even more of a fool by suggesting that for some strange reason, Sheila woke up in the early hours, woke Nevill up without disturbing June who was a very light sleeper, then asked him to go downstairs “for a chat”.
You’re suggesting that the chat became heated — yet June remained in her bed just hearing this heated row going on — and Sheila then got hold of the gun and managed to make it into the bathroom without Nevill overpowering her?
Sheila wouldn’t even have had a chance to get hold of the gun with Nevill stood opposite her, but you’ll refuse to accept that because it blows your ridiculous implausible story into smithereens.
My, you get quite agressive and insulting don't you? You need to understand that nothing you can say will affect how I think or what I post. You can say I 'look like a fool' but please don't assume I care what you think.
May I suggest you read what I say instead of inventing your own version?
I did not say that Sheila woke up and then woke Nevill up to go for a chat.
I think it's possible that Nevill never went to bed. Sheila was known to ring her father from London when she couldn't sleep and talk to him into the early hours [CAL book page 111]. It's not ludicrous to imagine that she heard him downstairs and came down to speak to him in the living room where he tended to sit at the end of the day.
If she left him sitting there and went 'to the toilet', for example she would have been able to go and get the gun without him even knowing she was doing it.
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My, you get quite agressive and insulting don't you? You need to understand that nothing you can say will affect how I think or what I post. You can say I 'look like a fool' but please don't assume I care what you think.
May I suggest you read what I say instead of inventing your own version?
I did not say that Sheila woke up and then woke Nevill up to go for a chat.
I think it's possible that Nevill never went to bed. Sheila was known to ring her father from London when she couldn't sleep and talk to him into the early hours [CAL book page 111]. It's not ludicrous to imagine that she heard him downstairs and came down to speak to him in the living room where he tended to sit at the end of the day.
If she left him sitting there and went 'to the toilet', for example she would have been able to go and get the gun without him even knowing she was doing it.
So why did she leave Nevill he was a sitting duck bust she left him sat there alive. Instead she went upstairs and shot the others, then took on Nevill? And yet if she had had a heated discussion with him, he be the one she actually argued with?
I agree that Nevill never went to bed. I think that Jeremy came back after his call to Julie on whatever pretext. Waited for Nevill to go to the shower? Locked Sheila in the bedroom, shot June and the twins and ambushed Nevill as he came upstairs. When Nevill was dead, he dealt with Sheila and staged the scene.
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I agree that Nevill never went to bed. I think that Jeremy came back after his call to Julie on whatever pretext. Waited for Nevill to go to the shower? Locked Sheila in the bedroom, shot June and the twins and ambushed Nevill as he came upstairs. When Nevill was dead, he dealt with Sheila and staged the scene.
How interesting. So you think Jeremy came back much earlier in the evening and not while they were all sleeping?
Could Sheila have been locked in her room from the outside then? I always thought twins first, Nevill hears something and is semi ready for Jeremy by the time he got across the landing. Then both parents were non fatally injured before Nevill stole past Jeremy in the act of reloading. Jeremy catches up with Nevill in the kitchen and despatches him before returning upstairs to find Sheila tending to June. The whole grisly enterprise is over and done with in less than 10 minutes.
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How interesting. So you think Jeremy came back much earlier in the evening and not while they were all sleeping?
Could Sheila have been locked in her room from the outside then? I always thought twins first, Nevill hears something and is semi ready for Jeremy by the time he got across the landing. Then both parents were non fatally injured before Nevill stole past Jeremy in the act of reloading. Jeremy catches up with Nevill in the kitchen and despatches him before returning upstairs to find Sheila tending to June. The whole grisly enterprise is over and done with in less than 10 minutes.
Yes, I think he came back after the call with Julie. For some reason he was timing the call - in her statement, Julie mentions that Bamber said that they had been on the call for 17 mins and seemed like he wanted to go. I think they were all long dead before 3am as he needed time to set the scene and return.
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So why did she leave Nevill he was a sitting duck bust she left him sat there alive. Instead she went upstairs and shot the others, then took on Nevill? And yet if she had had a heated discussion with him, he be the one she actually argued with?
I agree that Nevill never went to bed. I think that Jeremy came back after his call to Julie on whatever pretext. Waited for Nevill to go to the shower? Locked Sheila in the bedroom, shot June and the twins and ambushed Nevill as he came upstairs. When Nevill was dead, he dealt with Sheila and staged the scene.
An image of NB's pillow clearly shows an indentation typical of a head resting on it. Jean Boutell, housekeeper, had been in that day so unlikely the pillows would not have been shaken.
June was clearly shot in bed and whilst getting out 5/6 gsw's but was then able to walk around the bed and back where she sustained 2 further shots so how does this fit with your scenario?
The pathologist seemed to think the gsw's sustained by the twins were inflicted in quick succession and consecutively.
A total of 8 gsw's plus those sustained by June is a lot of noise for JB to then lie in wait to ambush NB as he came up the stairs.
Did SC's room have a lock/key?
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How interesting. So you think Jeremy came back much earlier in the evening and not while they were all sleeping?
Could Sheila have been locked in her room from the outside then? I always thought twins first, Nevill hears something and is semi ready for Jeremy by the time he got across the landing. Then both parents were non fatally injured before Nevill stole past Jeremy in the act of reloading. Jeremy catches up with Nevill in the kitchen and despatches him before returning upstairs to find Sheila tending to June. The whole grisly enterprise is over and done with in less than 10 minutes.
Why would JB spend 8 cartridges on the twins before even attempting to deal with his greatest adversary?
NB sustained two gsw's to his front and two to his rear upstairs. At what point did NB turn and where was JB?
What was SC doing when June was clearly staggering around the bed from one side to the other and back again? Why would SC tend to her mother, who by most accounts she wasn't fond of, before checking on the twins who according to you were already dead?
For a scenario to stand up to scrutiny it needs to match the physical evidence at soc by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks.
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If Nevill was shot 4 times before making the phonecall how come he managed to do so without leaving a trace of his blood on the phone?
He wasn't shot before he made the call.
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I have never argued that Nevill wasn't shot in the bedroom. He obviously was because of the shell cases and it was obviously before the shots in the kitchen because they killed him. What I am suggesting is that he could have been in the kitchen using the phone before he was in the bedroom being shot. Can you prove that he wasn't?
At trial it was accepted June sustained a bruise only wound independent of other gsw's. Meaning she sustained a total of 8. 6 shots were clearly fired whilst she was in bed and getting out of. It is not clear to me the exact position she was in when she sustained the two gsw's to the head both of which immobilised her immediately together or independently. Is it possible she was facing the perp as he/she stood in the doorway and she then fell into that awkward position by the door?
G-Unit you need to hone your spacial awareness and mental rotation skills! As you can see from the casing layout diagram, one casing is located on the landing and another on the transition strip (bedroom/landing). I have always thought these pertain to the gsw's NB sustained to his rear inflicted as he was on the main staircase facing the front door with the perp behind. If you follow the wound tracks in the pathology report and Dr V's trial test you will see the gsw to NB's shoulder was fired from above meaning the perp must have higher than NB given he was taller than either of the perp.
With regard to the facial wounds I believe all the physical evidence supports the perp stood inside the bedroom with NB standing on the landing stairs. If the barrel extended onto the landing with perp stood just inside the door the casings might well have fallen in the main bedroom as the right angle of the room will impede their flight path. Again the tracks of the facial wounds were 10 to 20 degrees below the horizontal which would fit with NB stood on the landing stairs.
The casing ejection pattern of the rifle is forward to the right up to 4 feet.
The following vid is an altogether different rifle/ammo and the ejection pattern is to the right (same as in this case) but backwards instead of forwards as in this case. So you can get a feel for the spacial relationship between muzzle of barrel and the likely landing place of casings.
https://youtu.be/WdAI9j_lDbc
You also need to consider the layout of WHF and given the trajectories of NB's gsw's the stairs are key imo: the two landing stairs just prior to the entrance to the bedroom and then the main staircase.
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Here's the casing layout diagram:
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Why would JB spend 8 cartridges on the twins before even attempting to deal with his greatest adversary?
NB sustained two gsw's to his front and two to his rear upstairs. At what point did NB turn and where was JB?
What was SC doing when June was clearly staggering around the bed from one side to the other and back again? Why would SC tend to her mother, who by most accounts she wasn't fond of, before checking on the twins who according to you were already dead?
For a scenario to stand up to scrutiny it needs to match the physical evidence at soc by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks.
Sheila was sleeping in another room. Behind walls, closed doors and across a corridor. A silencer was used and June was too injured to make any noise. The twins were shot while they slept.
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Does CAL's book say where Crispy used to sleep?
I know he was found under the main bedrooms bed. However dogs are often put into seperate rooms at night. WHF was a big house.
Crispy was not a guard dog but people say he would have heard Bamber enter and alerted the house. If he slept in the upstairs main bedroom woth Nevill & June, behind a closed door, it is doubtful he would have woken.
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No point in her asking Colin to intervene with her parents then, if they were in the dark about her condition and treatment.
That's totally irrelevant. You still haven't told us from where you gained the information that she did.
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Does CAL's book say where Crispy used to sleep?
I know he was found under the main bedrooms bed. However dogs are often put into seperate rooms at night. WHF was a big house.
Crispy was not a guard dog but people say he would have heard Bamber enter and alerted the house. If he slept in the upstairs main bedroom woth Nevill & June, behind a closed door, it is doubtful he would have woken.
Crispy slept in the kitchen in his basket next to the Aga. [CAL book page 158]
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That's totally irrelevant. You still haven't told us from where you gained the information that she did.
Colin Caffell's book. Sheila had asked him to speak to them when he dropped her and the boys off, but he didn't. He did speak to them about the boys who had asked him to tell their grandmother they didn't want to be made to kneel and pray all the time. Daniel had decided he was vegetarian and was afraid of June shouting at him if he didn't eat his meat also.
According to Colin Sheila had told her parents she wasn't happy with her treatment, but got the 'we know best' treatment. She was unhappy with her psychiatrist but her parents 'had absolute faith' in him. Colin told her to take charge and not let herself be treated like a child. He told her she needed to stand up to them.
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Colin Caffell's book. Sheila had asked him to speak to them when he dropped her and the boys off, but he didn't. He did speak to them about the boys who had asked him to tell their grandmother they didn't want to be made to kneel and pray all the time. Daniel had decided he was vegetarian and was afraid of June shouting at him if he didn't eat his meat also.
According to Colin Sheila had told her parents she wasn't happy with her treatment, but got the 'we know best' treatment. She was unhappy with her psychiatrist but her parents 'had absolute faith' in him. Colin told her to take charge and not let herself be treated like a child. He told her she needed to stand up to them.
Colin was keen for her to try an 'alternative therapy' -he seemed to think the Bambers wouldn't approve- but by the time Sheila arrived at WHF her meds had already been adjusted, Sheila herself having instigated it. Colin made his feelings clear in a letter he wrote, but never delivered, to Nevill. He left WHF with the letter still in his pocket, which he regretted later.
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Colin was keen for her to try an 'alternative therapy' -he seemed to think the Bambers wouldn't approve- but by the time Sheila arrived at WHF her meds had already been adjusted, Sheila herself having instigated it. Colin made his feelings clear in a letter he wrote, but never delivered, to Nevill. He left WHF with the letter still in his pocket, which he regretted later.
It was the night before they went to WHF when Sheila asked Colin to speak to her parents.
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Colin Caffell's book. Sheila had asked him to speak to them when he dropped her and the boys off, but he didn't. He did speak to them about the boys who had asked him to tell their grandmother they didn't want to be made to kneel and pray all the time. Daniel had decided he was vegetarian and was afraid of June shouting at him if he didn't eat his meat also.
According to Colin Sheila had told her parents she wasn't happy with her treatment, but got the 'we know best' treatment. She was unhappy with her psychiatrist but her parents 'had absolute faith' in him. Colin told her to take charge and not let herself be treated like a child. He told her she needed to stand up to them.
Doesn't sound at all like the sort of girl who could kill her parents when she couldn't even talk to them without feeling fear.
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Doesn't sound at all like the sort of girl who could kill her parents when she couldn't even talk to them without feeling fear.
On the other hand the suggestion that she should go to Bournemouth may have been the last straw.
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On the other hand the suggestion that she should go to Bournemouth may have been the last straw.
Bournemouth isn't THAT bad!!
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Crispy slept in the kitchen in his basket next to the Aga. [CAL book page 158]
Thanks. I bet Crispy got a shock when Nevill amd Jeremy entered the kitchen.
If Crispy woke when Bamber was downstairs, he would have quickly quietened down once he recognised Jeremy. If he did bark, the people upstairs sleeping behind closed doors would not hear.
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Crispy slept in the kitchen in his basket next to the Aga. [CAL book page 158]
Sounds like you have read CAL's book.
What did you think of her reconstruction of Jeremy committing the massacre?
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Bournemouth isn't THAT bad!!
Ha ha, was just about to say the same thing!
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Sounds like you have read CAL's book.
What did you think of her reconstruction of Jeremy committing the massacre?
Do you mean Appendix 1? Isn't that a report which was produced by the police?
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Bournemouth isn't THAT bad!!
A Christian community in Bournemouth, yes!!
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Do you mean Appendix 1? Isn't that a report which was produced by the police?
Is it? What did you think of it?
I agreed with some. Although have my own scenario which matches the crime scene evidence.
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An image of NB's pillow clearly shows an indentation typical of a head resting on it. Jean Boutell, housekeeper, had been in that day so unlikely the pillows would not have been shaken.
June was clearly shot in bed and whilst getting out 5/6 gsw's but was then able to walk around the bed and back where she sustained 2 further shots so how does this fit with your scenario?
The pathologist seemed to think the gsw's sustained by the twins were inflicted in quick succession and consecutively.
A total of 8 gsw's plus those sustained by June is a lot of noise for JB to then lie in wait to ambush NB as he came up the stairs.
Did SC's room have a lock/key?
The covers are not pushed back as they would be if he just got up. They probably had feather pillows and they had not been fluffed up. They were hardly the most house proud family.
Was Vanezis a gunshot expert?
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On the other hand the suggestion that she should go to Bournemouth may have been the last straw.
GO TO BOURNEMOUTH - MY GOD! What were they thinking!!! @)(++(*
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The covers are not pushed back as they would be if he just got up. They probably had feather pillows and they had not been fluffed up. They were hardly the most house proud family.
Was Vanezis a gunshot expert?
Dr Vanezis didn't need to be a gunshot expert to comment as he did. If he didn't feel competent to comment he would say as much as he did when asked about SC's nails.
The covers are ruffled NB's side.
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GO TO BOURNEMOUTH - MY GOD! What were they thinking!!! @)(++(*
Why not offer to treat SC to a holiday of her choice?
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Why not offer to treat SC to a holiday of her choice?
How would that help her?
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How would that help her?
Empower.
Maybe just make some suggestions as to the type of hol SC may have enjoyed: spa break, art classes, cooking, walking and anything else she was interested in.
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Empower.
Maybe just make some suggestions as to the type of hol SC may have enjoyed: spa break, art classes, cooking, walking and anything else she was interested in.
I guess they thought they were doing the best they could - with a 35 year hindsight I guess it's easy to find fault. However, I doubt anyone has ever killed themselves and took others with them after a suggestion that they might stay in a convalescent home in Bournemouth.
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I guess they thought they were doing the best they could - with a 35 year hindsight I guess it's easy to find fault. However, I doubt anyone has ever killed themselves and took others with them after a suggestion that they might stay in a convalescent home in Bournemouth.
Right now I'd be prepared to kill someone FOR a break, even if it was just to Bournemouth.
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I guess they thought they were doing the best they could - with a 35 year hindsight I guess it's easy to find fault. However, I doubt anyone has ever killed themselves and took others with them after a suggestion that they might stay in a convalescent home in Bournemouth.
It was a Christian community!
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Right now I'd be prepared to kill someone FOR a break, even if it was just to Bournemouth.
I'm sure G-Unit and I could club together to find somewhere for you without access to the internet to give you and us a complete break 8)--))
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Seems to be a glitch....
Shall try again
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The covers are not pushed back as they would be if he just got up. They probably had feather pillows and they had not been fluffed up. They were hardly the most house proud family.
Was Vanezis a gunshot expert?
I think that’s just one angle of the bed that the photographer took
In other images you can clearly see how the duvet is ruffled back like when you get up quickly
And like you say, the imprint of Nevill’s head is on the pillow
I’ve tried attaching two photographs but they won’t seem to load...shall try again
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I think that’s just one angle of the bed that the photographer took
In other images you can clearly see how the duvet is ruffled back like when you get up quickly
And like you say, the imprint of Nevill’s head is on the pillow
I’ve tried attaching two photographs but they won’t seem to load...shall try again
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Apologies for posting the image with no text, but it won’t seem to allow me to add pictures to my posts
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Dr Vanezis didn't need to be a gunshot expert to comment as he did. If he didn't feel competent to comment he would say as much as he did when asked about SC's nails.
The covers are ruffled NB's side.
Actually, Dr Vanezis did indeed ask the police to bring in a ballistics expert when carrying out the PM’s, but the police were either unable or unwilling to do that...
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Colin Caffell's book. Sheila had asked him to speak to them when he dropped her and the boys off, but he didn't. He did speak to them about the boys who had asked him to tell their grandmother they didn't want to be made to kneel and pray all the time. Daniel had decided he was vegetarian and was afraid of June shouting at him if he didn't eat his meat also.
According to Colin Sheila had told her parents she wasn't happy with her treatment, but got the 'we know best' treatment. She was unhappy with her psychiatrist but her parents 'had absolute faith' in him. Colin told her to take charge and not let herself be treated like a child. He told her she needed to stand up to them.
Well, as Sheila found it hard to even stand up to her parents vocally, it beggars belief that she could engineer it to murder them violently and beat her father to a pulp for good measure
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I guess they thought they were doing the best they could - with a 35 year hindsight I guess it's easy to find fault. However, I doubt anyone has ever killed themselves and took others with them after a suggestion that they might stay in a convalescent home in Bournemouth.
Pamela spoke to June at 10 pm on the night and June mentioned how worried she was about Sheila and that she was trying to persuade her to take a holiday at a home in Bournemouth. Pamela later elaborated saying it was a 'nursing home' and a 'Christian community'. Whatever it was it doesn't sound like the kind of place Sheila would choose to go to. Pamela spoke to Sheila then June came back on and said Sheila had gone to bed.
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Well, as Sheila found it hard to even stand up to her parents vocally, it beggars belief that she could engineer it to murder them violently and beat her father to a pulp for good measure
It maybe coincidental, but a few days earlier, she'd wanted to leave the party. Her first port of call was Colin, who refused because he'd had a drink -well, it was his party- but suggested she ask Jeremy. She asked Colin to ask Jeremy on her behalf. Within days, she's asking him again for his support.
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I'm sure G-Unit and I could club together to find somewhere for you without access to the internet to give you and us a complete break 8)--))
How incredibly rude.
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Apologies for posting the image with no text, but it won’t seem to allow me to add pictures to my posts
Two more bedroom crime scene photos with ruffled blankets and indented pillow. Nevill's blue socks were on the floor and his dayclothes on the chair. He had already showered as per his usual routine, changed into light-blue pyjamas and was in bed when the assault by his son began, end of...
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Two casings out of DRH 3, 4, 13 and 14 resulted from the last two shots to June's head, which means that Holly's idea of Nevill being shot four times whilst on the landing(s) and stairs is unsustainable, simply because the rifle was pointing downwards and the casings ejected to its right, directly onto and cushioned by the carpet near the doorway.
https://www.dropbox.com/h?preview=Anschutz-Casing-Ejection-Large.gif (https://www.dropbox.com/h?preview=Anschutz-Casing-Ejection-Large.gif)
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My, you get quite agressive and insulting don't you? You need to understand that nothing you can say will affect how I think or what I post. You can say I 'look like a fool' but please don't assume I care what you think.
May I suggest you read what I say instead of inventing your own version?
I did not say that Sheila woke up and then woke Nevill up to go for a chat.
I think it's possible that Nevill never went to bed. Sheila was known to ring her father from London when she couldn't sleep and talk to him into the early hours [CAL book page 111]. It's not ludicrous to imagine that she heard him downstairs and came down to speak to him in the living room where he tended to sit at the end of the day.
If she left him sitting there and went 'to the toilet', for example she would have been able to go and get the gun without him even knowing she was doing it.
I’m merely reading your ridiculous scenarios that you’ve made up in your head, and which don’t make sense
Your suggestions of events do make you look foolish, but as you don’t care about that you shouldn’t get upset with me for saying so...
You may think it isn’t ludicrous to imagine Nevill sitting alone for hours in the sitting room, and for Sheila to suddenly awake and decide to go down to “chat with him”, but you’re not thinking logically
Besides Sheila being tired and exhausted from her medication, and it’s established she was in bed, why would Nevill be sat downstairs for hours, alone? His regular routine was to shower in the evening; pour himself a G&T, and sit having a cigarette before going to bed. He went to bed relatively early, say, around 11:30pm as he had to rise early to start work on the farm.
Photos prove he had slept in his bed that night, so again, your imaginary story doesn’t add up
If for any reason Sheila did want to speak to him in confidence, she had all the time and opportunity to do so during the next day. All you’ve highlighted is that Sheila was extremely close to him — so much so she was able to speak to him at length on the phone — so why on earth would she want to shoot dead her father who protected her, helped her, gave her advice, and doted on her too?
You’re also going against your usual argument that Sheila had suddenly gone “berserk”. Had she been going berserk they could have hardly sat having a long conversation could they?
And your suggestion that Sheila said she was going to the loo so she could pick up the gun and lock herself in the bathroom is equally ridiculous. For one thing, there was no gun laying around.
I don’t believe for one moment that Jeremy had taken it out the gun cupboard at around 9pm because he thought he heard rabbits. Besides not enjoying shooting and being a bad shot, he was extremely lazy. Had he truly heard rabbits, which in itself sounds odd, he’d not have taken time to get the rifle and try and shoot them.
He had been working all day; was bored to tears; lazy as hell — and wanted to get home.
He even asked Nevill if he’d collect the last bake of hay that night, so why would he spend time trying to shoot rabbits which he had no interest in rather than shooting off in his car?
And why load it with a full round of ammunition just to try and kill one or two rabbits?
Neither do I believe for a second that he left that loaded gun on the settle — or in the kitchen — depending on which lie of his you want to believe. Even he wouldn’t be that irresponsible, and what's more, Nevill would most definitely have spotted it there and immediately locked it away in the gun cupboard just as he always, always did. We know for a fact Nevill spoke on the phone to his secretary after Jeremy left, so are you suggesting Nevill didn’t see that long loaded rifle while he was in the kitchen? Or when they were stacking the dishwasher after dinner? You’re saying none of them spotted that rifle laying there?
And are you suggesting Nevill would have left a loaded firearm on the kitchen worktop or settle when his two six-year-old grandsons were there? You could hardly miss it. And he would have seen it had it been on the settle because he locked all the doors at night.
Jeremy HID that rifle before leaving WHF.
Jeremy took that rifle, loaded it, took extra ammunition, and hid it in a cupboard — it’s obvious.
Jeremy never heard rabbits
Jeremy never walked out in front of his family holding that rifle saying he was off to shoot rabbits
He was a burglar, a thief, and a liar. He sneakily hid that rifle somewhere, knowing Nevill would have no idea it had been taken out the gun cupboard.
And when Jeremy retuned later, he went straight to that hiding place, picked up the gun and quietly made his way up the stairs...
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I’m merely reading your ridiculous scenarios that you’ve made up in your head, and which don’t make sense
Your suggestions of events do make you look foolish, but as you don’t care about that you shouldn’t get upset with me for saying so...
You may think it isn’t ludicrous to imagine Nevill sitting alone for hours in the sitting room, and for Sheila to suddenly awake and decide to go down to “chat with him”, but you’re not thinking logically
Besides Sheila being tired and exhausted from her medication, and it’s established she was in bed, why would Nevill be sat downstairs for hours, alone? His regular routine was to shower in the evening; pour himself a G&T, and sit having a cigarette before going to bed. He went to bed relatively early, say, around 11:30pm as he had to rise early to start work on the farm.
Photos prove he had slept in his bed that night, so again, your imaginary story doesn’t add up
If for any reason Sheila did want to speak to him in confidence, she had all the time and opportunity to do so during the next day. All you’ve highlighted is that Sheila was extremely close to him — so much so she was able to speak to him at length on the phone — so why on earth would she want to shoot dead her father who protected her, helped her, gave her advice, and doted on her too?
You’re also going against your usual argument that Sheila had suddenly gone “berserk”. Had she been going berserk they could have hardly sat having a long conversation could they?
And your suggestion that Sheila said she was going to the loo so she could pick up the gun and lock herself in the bathroom is equally ridiculous. For one thing, there was no gun laying around.
I don’t believe for one moment that Jeremy had taken it out the gun cupboard at around 9pm because he thought he heard rabbits. Besides not enjoying shooting and being a bad shot, he was extremely lazy. Had he truly heard rabbits, which in itself sounds odd, he’d not have taken time to get the rifle and try and shoot them.
He had been working all day; was bored to tears; lazy as hell — and wanted to get home.
He even asked Nevill if he’d collect the last bake of hay that night, so why would he spend time trying to shoot rabbits which he had no interest in rather than shooting off in his car?
And why load it with a full round of ammunition just to try and kill one or two rabbits?
Neither do I believe for a second that he left that loaded gun on the settle — or in the kitchen — depending on which lie of his you want to believe. Even he wouldn’t be that irresponsible, and what's more, Nevill would most definitely have spotted it there and immediately locked it away in the gun cupboard just as he always, always did. We know for a fact Nevill spoke on the phone to his secretly after Jeremy left, so are you suggesting Nevill didn’t see that long loaded rifle while he was in the kitchen? Or when they were stacking the dishwasher after dinner? You’re saying none of them spotted that rifle laying there?
And are you suggesting Nevill would have left a loaded firearm on the kitchen worktop or settle when his two six-year-old grandsons were there? You could hardly miss it. And he would have seen it had it been on the settle because he locked all the doors at night.
Jeremy HID that rifle before leaving WHF.
Jeremy took that rifle, loaded it, took extra ammunition, and hid it in a cupboard — it’s obvious.
Jeremy never heard rabbits
Jeremy never walked out in front of his family holding that rifle saying he was off to shoot rabbits
He was a burglar, a thief, and a liar. He sneakily hid that rifle somewhere, knowing Nevill would have no idea it had been taken out the gun cupboard.
And when Jeremy retuned later, he went straight to that hiding place, picked up the gun and quietly made his way up the stairs...
I reiterate. When it came to the 'script' Jeremy held all the cards. As the only member of the family to leave the kitchen alive he was able to furnish the police with details of his actions and their conversation in a way which best suited the eventual outcome. There was no one to challenge him..................unless we could find the rabbits he missed. Crispy was too traumatized.
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Dr Vanezis didn't need to be a gunshot expert to comment as he did. If he didn't feel competent to comment he would say as much as he did when asked about SC's nails.
The covers are ruffled NB's side.
As they would be after June was shot in bed several times.
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Dr Vanezis didn't need to be a gunshot expert to comment as he did. If he didn't feel competent to comment he would say as much as he did when asked about SC's nails.
The covers are ruffled NB's side.
I imagine his comment was in line with 4 murders and a suicide, not that the shooter may have staged the scene.
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I think that’s just one angle of the bed that the photographer took
In other images you can clearly see how the duvet is ruffled back like when you get up quickly
And like you say, the imprint of Nevill’s head is on the pillow
I’ve tried attaching two photographs but they won’t seem to load...shall try again
I have seen all angles of the bed and the yes the covers are ruffled but that doesn't prove Nevill went to bed. Given what must have happened in the bedroom they could have become ruffled at any time. Also, I don't think June or Nevill were pillow fluffers - given the state of the rest of the house. It's a theory - nothing more.
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Pamela spoke to June at 10 pm on the night and June mentioned how worried she was about Sheila and that she was trying to persuade her to take a holiday at a home in Bournemouth. Pamela later elaborated saying it was a 'nursing home' and a 'Christian community'. Whatever it was it doesn't sound like the kind of place Sheila would choose to go to. Pamela spoke to Sheila then June came back on and said Sheila had gone to bed.
Trying to 'persuade' not forcing. Tell you what, heaven forbid someone tries to persuade me to go glamping! 8()(((@# 8()(((@# @)(++(*
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I’m merely reading your ridiculous scenarios that you’ve made up in your head, and which don’t make sense
Your suggestions of events do make you look foolish, but as you don’t care about that you shouldn’t get upset with me for saying so...
Your attitude doesn't upset me but I'm not going to ingnore your behaviour either. When I see people posting in an aggressive or disrespectful manner I draw attantion to it because there's no excuse for it in my opinion.
You may think it isn’t ludicrous to imagine Nevill sitting alone for hours in the sitting room, and for Sheila to suddenly awake and decide to go down to “chat with him”, but you’re not thinking logically
Besides Sheila being tired and exhausted from her medication, and it’s established she was in bed, why would Nevill be sat downstairs for hours, alone? His regular routine was to shower in the evening; pour himself a G&T, and sit having a cigarette before going to bed. He went to bed relatively early, say, around 11:30pm as he had to rise early to start work on the farm.
I didn't say Nevill sat downstairs for hours alone. He was still in the fields at 10:30 pm, then he had to put things away, walk the dogs and put one in the barn, take his shower and go to the living room to get his drink and relax. Taking maybe an hour. It's established that Sheila went to bed at 10:00 pm. She could well have come down to talk to her father if she was unable to sleep. It's a matter of record that Nevill would speak to her on the phone until the early hours, so why not in person?
Photos prove he had slept in his bed that night, so again, your imaginary story doesn’t add up
I don't think it's proved.
If for any reason Sheila did want to speak to him in confidence, she had all the time and opportunity to do so during the next day. All you’ve highlighted is that Sheila was extremely close to him — so much so she was able to speak to him at length on the phone — so why on earth would she want to shoot dead her father who protected her, helped her, gave her advice, and doted on her too?
It was at night when Sheila couldn't sleep that she needed company. I never said that she wanted to shoot her father.
You’re also going against your usual argument that Sheila had suddenly gone “berserk”. Had she been going berserk they could have hardly sat having a long conversation could they?
She appears to have gone berserk around three in the morning.
And your suggestion that Sheila said she was going to the loo so she could pick up the gun and lock herself in the bathroom is equally ridiculous. For one thing, there was no gun laying around.
It wouldn't be the first time that the gun had been left in the scullery on the settle. Robert Boutflower saw it there on 18th July. Nevill picked it up and put it in the cupboard, but whether he then locked it wasn't said.
I don’t believe for one moment that Jeremy had taken it out the gun cupboard at around 9pm because he thought he heard rabbits. Besides not enjoying shooting and being a bad shot, he was extremely lazy. Had he truly heard rabbits, which in itself sounds odd, he’d not have taken time to get the rifle and try and shoot them.
Saw, not heard. Rabbits don't make noises except in death.
He had been working all day; was bored to tears; lazy as hell — and wanted to get home.
He even asked Nevill if he’d collect the last bake of hay that night, so why would he spend time trying to shoot rabbits which he had no interest in rather than shooting off in his car?
And why load it with a full round of ammunition just to try and kill one or two rabbits?
Neither do I believe for a second that he left that loaded gun on the settle — or in the kitchen — depending on which lie of his you want to believe. Even he wouldn’t be that irresponsible, and what's more, Nevill would most definitely have spotted it there and immediately locked it away in the gun cupboard just as he always, always did. We know for a fact Nevill spoke on the phone to his secretly after Jeremy left, so are you suggesting Nevill didn’t see that long loaded rifle while he was in the kitchen? Or when they were stacking the dishwasher after dinner? You’re saying none of them spotted that rifle laying there?
And are you suggesting Nevill would have left a loaded firearm on the kitchen worktop or settle when his two six-year-old grandsons were there? You could hardly miss it. And he would have seen it had it been on the settle because he locked all the doors at night.
Jeremy HID that rifle before leaving WHF.
Jeremy took that rifle, loaded it, took extra ammunition, and hid it in a cupboard — it’s obvious.
Jeremy never heard rabbits
Jeremy never walked out in front of his family holding that rifle saying he was off to shoot rabbits
Because the rifle wasn't in the kitchen, it was in the scullery.
He was a burglar, a thief, and a liar. He sneakily hid that rifle somewhere, knowing Nevill would have no idea it had been taken out the gun cupboard.
And when Jeremy retuned later, he went straight to that hiding place, picked up the gun and quietly made his way up the stairs...
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'It wouldn't be the first time that the gun had been left in the scullery on the settle. Robert Boutflower saw it there on 18th July. Nevill picked it up and put it in the cupboard, but whether he then locked it wasn't said.'
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I did not know that. Where does it say that, CAL's book?
It is a pity Nevill did not do this when his daughter & two grand daughters were staying.
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"Mrs Neva Temple, who lives next door said Sheila once woke her at 5am with hysterical screams. 'She was shouting loudly and I went to help. She seemed very distraught."
http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/p/gambling-man-in-life-of-massacre-model.html?m=0
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"Mrs Neva Temple, who lives next door said Sheila once woke her at 5am with hysterical screams. 'She was shouting loudly and I went to help. She seemed very distraught."
http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/p/gambling-man-in-life-of-massacre-model.html?m=0
There is always someone who wants to comment when a newspaper turns up. However, we know Sheila had schizophrenia but she was medicated at the time of the murders.
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There is always someone who wants to comment when a newspaper turns up. However, we know Sheila had schizophrenia but she was medicated at the time of the murders.
To be precise, Sheila had an injection on 11th July, but the dose was reduced by 50% at her request. Her psychiatrist described it as a small dose. That was 26 days before the shootings.
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To be precise, Sheila had an injection on 11th July, but the dose was reduced by 50% at her request. Her psychiatrist described it as a small dose. That was 26 days before the shootings.
To be more precise, Sheila still had a moderate dose of Haloperidol still left in her system when she died. The drug is slow release and builds up in the system. It doesn't just wear off prior to the next dose being administered.
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Pamela spoke to June at 10 pm on the night and June mentioned how worried she was about Sheila and that she was trying to persuade her to take a holiday at a home in Bournemouth. Pamela later elaborated saying it was a 'nursing home' and a 'Christian community'. Whatever it was it doesn't sound like the kind of place Sheila would choose to go to. Pamela spoke to Sheila then June came back on and said Sheila had gone to bed.
So Sheila HAD gone to bed, then...
Yesterday you implied maybe Sheila hadn’t gone to bed and had stayed up chatting to Nevill...
Thank you for establishing Sheila had indeed gone to bed, and had probably done so as she worn out
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Two more bedroom crime scene photos with ruffled blankets and indented pillow. Nevill's blue socks were on the floor and his dayclothes on the chair. He had already showered as per his usual routine, changed into light-blue pyjamas and was in bed when the assault by his son began, end of...
Thank you, Myster
I appreciate that, and your pictures are far clearer than the ones I found
I wonder what G-Unit will think up now...now she can’t deny Nevill did indeed go to bed
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Thank you, Myster
I appreciate that, and your pictures are far clearer than the ones I found
I wonder what G-Unit will think up now...now she can’t deny Nevill did indeed go to bed
My bet is she ccan and she will, despite the glaring evidence to the contrary.
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I reiterate. When it came to the 'script' Jeremy held all the cards. As the only member of the family to leave the kitchen alive he was able to furnish the police with details of his actions and their conversation in a way which best suited the eventual outcome. There was no one to challenge him..................unless we could find the rabbits he missed. Crispy was too traumatized.
Indeed
Jeremy had carte blanche to concoct that story any way he wanted.
But like all murderers, they always trip up...
For instance, he claims he heard rabbits outside. Rabbits are hardly noisy, and even if he had done I can’t see him being bothered to go and shoot them. He was lazy & disinterested in the farm.
Secondly, had he really decided to shoot rabbits he’d have had to of gone to the gun cupboard. It’s a fact that Nevill was meticulous in keeping his guns stored securely, especially since one of his friends was accidentally shot whilst out on a shoot (thankfully, he wasn’t too badly injured), and everyone said how Nevill was horrified when that happened and so religiously kept all his guns locked securely every time he came back from shooting.
He also kept them well-maintained to the highest standard, and always, always kept both the silencer and scope attached to the .22 Rifle as unscrewing them was fiddly and time-consuming; and there was simply no need to remove them because he only used the rifle with them attached.
Rabbits have extremely acute hearing, which is why they’re always shot at with a silencer — a rabbit can hear a bullet before it’s had chance to hit it.
When shooting rabbits one has to keep their distance, hence the necessity of a scope.
So that begs the question: why would Jeremy take a rifle that had no scope or silencer on it, when he knew you needed them to shoot rabbits?
He even admitted the rifle didn’t have the silencer/scope attached, yet it’s been proven the silencer was used; it’s been proven Sheila’s blood was inside the silencer; it’s been proven that the silencer was not even in the secured gun cupboard where Nevill kept all his firearms and ammunition in pristine condition. Furthermore, why wasn’t the scope with the silencer too? Had Nevill removed them (and we all know he didn’t) they’d have been together in the secured gun cupboard.
And the only reason the silencer wasn’t found by the police was that they’ve admitted — and it’s in black and white — that they only had a brief look inside the cupboards and didn’t do a proper, thorough search. They obviously thought it unnecessary as at that time they were of the opinion it was a murder/suicide; they didn’t know a silencer was used; and possibly didn’t even know what one would look like even if they had spotted it tucked away where Jeremy had hidden it to the best of his ability.
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Exactly. If Sheila did the killings why was the silencer hidden away in a cupboard?
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"Mrs Neva Temple, who lives next door said Sheila once woke her at 5am with hysterical screams. 'She was shouting loudly and I went to help. She seemed very distraught."
http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/p/gambling-man-in-life-of-massacre-model.html?m=0
For goodness sake, don’t you realise how newspapers love to sensationalise?
They embellish, exaggerate and distort — much like Jeremy, the real murderer. He and his crackpot delusional “team” only post old, false, sensationalist lies that were printed before it was discovered it was HIM who was the killer. I’ve noticed they never post up all the press reports about him, do they?
I know reporters, and I know how they work.
For instance, when they said a neighbour had said Sheila had “staring eyes”, the journalist would have put those words into that neighbour’s mouth. The neighbour may well have said Sheila had big eyes and the reporter would have jumped on that and asked “what, staring eyes?” and the neighbour would have said something like “sort of”
That’s what reporters do.
Likewise the neighbour who heard Sheila having an anxiety attack. She would’ve told the reporter about it and the reporter made Sheila sound like something from the Exorcist.
It’s a load of exaggerated nonsense to sell newspapers.
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To be precise, Sheila had an injection on 11th July, but the dose was reduced by 50% at her request. Her psychiatrist described it as a small dose. That was 26 days before the shootings.
Erm, a smaller dose
And still strong enough to zap all her strength, make her limbs stiff and walk like a zombie...
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"Mrs Neva Temple, who lives next door said Sheila once woke her at 5am with hysterical screams. 'She was shouting loudly and I went to help. She seemed very distraught."
http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/p/gambling-man-in-life-of-massacre-model.html?m=0
Mmm. Interesting. However, if we break this down, we'll discover that the key word here is "ONCE". I'll hazard a guess that the ONE occasion was prior to her hospitalization and before she her medication had been regularized. It maybe worth noting that "hysterical screams" may well have been an exaggeration.
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Actually, rabbits do make noises, albeit not particularly loud
However, you’re correct — Jeremy did say he saw rabbits: I was wrong
However, your theory that Jeremy left the rifle on the settle is just that: a theory — which doesn’t hold weight
Jeremy told not one, but TWO lies about where he supposedly left the gun
Both lies are in his two different statements
Now we’ve established he’s a liar, it also means that both of his lies are just that: lies
I don’t believe he took that gun out to shoot rabbits — he took that gun out the secured gun locker and HID it
And if you can’t see that you’re shortsighted.
You’ve chosen to believe lie number one: he left the rifle on the settle in the hallway
The reason you’ve not chosen lie number two: he left the rifle in the kitchenis that you know the settle sounds better for him, and there’d be less chance of it being spotted
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Actually, rabbits do make noises, albeit not particularly loud
However, you’re correct — Jeremy did say he saw rabbits: I was wrong
However, your theory that Jeremy left the rifle on the settle is just that: a theory — which doesn’t hold weight
Jeremy told not one, but TWO lies about where he supposedly left the gun
Both lies are in his two different statements
Now we’ve established he’s a liar, it also means that both of his lies are just that: lies
I don’t believe he took that gun out to shoot rabbits — he took that gun out the secured gun locker and HID it
And if you can’t see that you’re shortsighted.
You’ve chosen to believe lie number one: he left the rifle on the settle in the hallway
The reason you’ve not chosen lie number two: he left the rifle in the kitchenis that you know the settle sounds better for him, and there’d be less chance of it being spotted
Both statements mention wellingtons, so whever the wellingtons were that's where the rifle was. It was the magazine which was left on the settle. It seems that certain areas of the house had interchangeable names; hallway/scullery and den/office. In some areas of the UK scullery was used interchangeably with kitchen. I remember that.
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Actually, Dr Vanezis did indeed ask the police to bring in a ballistics expert when carrying out the PM’s, but the police were either unable or unwilling to do that...
Dr Vanezis would not have committed himself to anything he didn't feel competent in.
With regard to your assertion above, you're wrong. DI Cooke telephoned FSS and was told a ballistics expert couldn't be spared.
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"Mrs Neva Temple, who lives next door said Sheila once woke her at 5am with hysterical screams. 'She was shouting loudly and I went to help. She seemed very distraught."
http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/p/gambling-man-in-life-of-massacre-model.html?m=0
At what point do you believe Nevill phoned Jeremy?
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At what point do you believe Nevill phoned Jeremy?
Before any shots were fired.
There's no question all the physical evidence at soc supports NB in the kitchen on the tel to JB with SC upstairs opening fire on June in bed. NB hearing the shots drops the phone and goes upstairs where he sustains the facial shots on the landing stairs and the shots to his rear on the main stairs after he turned to retreat back downstairs.
It will never be known what preceded this.
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Before any shots were fired.
There's no question all the physical evidence at soc supports NB in the kitchen on the tel to JB with SC upstairs opening fire on June in bed. NB hearing the shots drops the phone and goes upstairs where he sustains the facial shots on the landing stairs and the shots to his rear on the main stairs after he turned to retreat back downstairs.
It will never be known what preceded this.
How did he end up downstairs then? Explain the scenario to us: Nevill wakes up to find Sheila waving a gun about but not having shot anyone and then what?
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To be more precise, Sheila still had a moderate dose of Haloperidol still left in her system when she died. The drug is slow release and builds up in the system. It doesn't just wear off prior to the next dose being administered.
To be even more precise as per the toxicology reports:
Liver = 0.55 micrograms per gram
Blood = 15 nanograms per millilitre
The above levels put the dosage just above low into medium.
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Before any shots were fired.
There's no question all the physical evidence at soc supports NB in the kitchen on the tel to JB with SC upstairs opening fire on June in bed. NB hearing the shots drops the phone and goes upstairs where he sustains the facial shots on the landing stairs and the shots to his rear on the main stairs after he turned to retreat back downstairs.
It will never be known what preceded this.
What evidence are you on about? Jeremy Bamber never reported hearing any shots so your contention is simply rubbish.
There isn't a single scrap of evidence which places Nevill anywhere near the kitchen phone.
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To be even more precise as per the toxicology reports:
Liver = 0.55 micrograms per gram
Blood = 15 nanograms per millilitre
The above levels put the dosage just above low into medium.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=207.0;attach=750
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What evidence are you on about? Jeremy Bamber never reported hearing any shots so your contention is simply rubbish.
There isn't a single scrap of evidence which places Nevill anywhere near the kitchen phone.
JB would not have heard the sound of gunshot fired in the bedroom down the phone line situated in the kitchen.
The physical evidence at soc all supports NB shot on the landing stairs and main stairs. None of the evidence supports him shot in the bedroom. This in itself supports the defence case of NB calling JB from the kitchen, hearing gunshot, dropping the phone and going upstairs where he was shot standing on the landing stairs with SC shooting out of the bedroom onto the landing.
To date a shooting reconstruction hasn't taken place but all the data relating to the physical evidence is available for this to happen.
Anyone can argue the points with me just so long as they realise no expert evidence exists so its one lay view against another.
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Before any shots were fired.
There's no question all the physical evidence at soc supports NB in the kitchen on the tel to JB with SC upstairs opening fire on June in bed. NB hearing the shots drops the phone and goes upstairs where he sustains the facial shots on the landing stairs and the shots to his rear on the main stairs after he turned to retreat back downstairs.
It will never be known what preceded this.
No it doesn’t.
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JB would not have heard the sound of gunshot fired in the bedroom down the phone line situated in the kitchen.
The physical evidence at soc all supports NB shot on the landing stairs and main stairs. None of the evidence supports him shot in the bedroom. This in itself supports the defence case of NB calling JB from the kitchen, hearing gunshot, dropping the phone and going upstairs where he was shot standing on the landing stairs with SC shooting out of the bedroom onto the landing.
To date a shooting reconstruction hasn't taken place but all the data relating to the physical evidence is available for this to happen.
Anyone can argue the points with me just so long as they realise no expert evidence exists so its one lay view against another.
Are you for real? All the empty shell casings bar two found in the master bedroom relate to Nevill and June so your claim is pure nonsense. Your claim of someone shooting out of the bedroom is also nonsense given all the casings were found on and around the bed. Shell casings are ejected from the right side of Anschutz rifle proving that the shooter was just inside the bedroom door shooting into the bedroom.
I have no intention of arguing any aspects with you Holly as you are plainly wrong.
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JB would not have heard the sound of gunshot fired in the bedroom down the phone line situated in the kitchen.
The physical evidence at soc all supports NB shot on the landing stairs and main stairs. None of the evidence supports him shot in the bedroom. This in itself supports the defence case of NB calling JB from the kitchen, hearing gunshot, dropping the phone and going upstairs where he was shot standing on the landing stairs with SC shooting out of the bedroom onto the landing.
To date a shooting reconstruction hasn't taken place but all the data relating to the physical evidence is available for this to happen.
Anyone can argue the points with me just so long as they realise no expert evidence exists so its one lay view against another.
And any reconstruction would be one expert opinion over another and any reconstruction would be a best guess.
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How did he end up downstairs then? Explain the scenario to us: Nevill wakes up to find Sheila waving a gun about but not having shot anyone and then what?
We are told by JB he received a phone call from NB:
"Sheila's gone crazy she's got the gun".
We could all speculate about exactly what was or wasn't going on. All that can ever be determined is what the physical evidence supports: blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories of shots and wound tracks. When all these pieces are carefully fitted together they complete a picture or video on par with cctv.
The above clearly shows NB sustained his facial gunshot wounds when he was stood on the landing stairs and the perp was inside the bedroom shooting out onto the landing. NB then turned to retreat downstairs and when he was on the main staircase he sustained the two gunshot wounds to his rear.
It is not something you can arrive at overnight. You need to work through the pathology reports, blood stain evidence, casing evidence, ballistics evidence re distance of shots, layout of the farmhouse.
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And any reconstruction would be one expert opinion over another and any reconstruction would be a best guess.
No. This is not a case which involves a single gunshot or even 2 or 3 but 26. A mountain of untapped physical data exists which overwhelmingly supports the defence case.
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We are told by JB he received a phone call from NB:
"Sheila's gone crazy she's got the gun".
We could all speculate about exactly what or wasn't going on. All that can ever be determined is what the physical evidence supports: blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories of shots and wound tracks. When all these pieces are carefully fitted together they complete a picture or video on par with cctv.
The above clearly shows NB sustained his facial gunshot wounds when he was stood on the landing stairs and the perp was inside the bedroom shooting out onto the landing. NB then turned to retreat downstairs and when he was on the main staircase he sustained the two gunshot wounds to his rear.
It is not something you can arrive at overnight. You need to work through the pathology reports, blood stain evidence, casing evidence, ballistics evidence re distance of shots, layout of the farmhouse.
No it doesn't, no evidence can prove where Nevill got his wounds. We can however take the actual evidence and work out a logical process but I'm afraid your views of Bamber have tainted your reasoning.
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No. This is not a case which involves a single gunshot or even 2 or 3 but 26. A mountain of untapped physical data exists which overwhelmingly supports the defence case.
In your dreams.
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No it doesn't, no evidence can prove where Nevill got his wounds. We can however take the actual evidence and work out a logical process but I'm afraid your views of Bamber have tainted your reasoning.
What do you think shooting reconstructions involve and aim to demonstrate?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780123822413/shooting-incident-reconstruction
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No it doesn't, no evidence can prove where Nevill got his wounds. We can however take the actual evidence and work out a logical process but I'm afraid your views of Bamber have tainted your reasoning.
http://www.crimescene-forensics.com/Shooting_Recon.html
"With proper documentation and measurements, it is possible to dermine bullet paths, location of shooters, location of injured parties and muzzle to target distances."
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A shooting reconstruction at WHF will be made easier by the fact the parameters are limited by room sizes, fixtures and fittings and furniture etc.
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A shooting reconstruction at WHF will be made easier by the fact the parameters are limited by room sizes, fixtures and fittings and furniture etc.
I don't need a reconstruction to understand what really happened unless you are claiming that all the bullet casings were moved.
Nevill was alerted to movement in the house, Crispy probably heard it first. As Nevill went to investigate the shooter confronted him from the upstairs landing and backed him back into the master bedroom where he was shot in the mouth and shoulder and probably stumbled backwards. June was then shot in bed and shot again as she stumbled to her feet. Jeremy Bamber went downstairs to reload and Nevill staggered down after him leaving blood on the wall beside the stairs.
A fight ensued in which the glass ceiling globe was smashed and the breakfast table disturbed. Nevill slumber exhausted into his armchair and was shot again in the head. Those are the only conclusions one can come to according to the evidence.
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We are told by JB he received a phone call from NB:
"Sheila's gone crazy she's got the gun".
We could all speculate about exactly what was or wasn't going on. All that can ever be determined is what the physical evidence supports: blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories of shots and wound tracks. When all these pieces are carefully fitted together they complete a picture or video on par with cctv.
The above clearly shows NB sustained his facial gunshot wounds when he was stood on the landing stairs and the perp was inside the bedroom shooting out onto the landing. NB then turned to retreat downstairs and when he was on the main staircase he sustained the two gunshot wounds to his rear.
It is not something you can arrive at overnight. You need to work through the pathology reports, blood stain evidence, casing evidence, ballistics evidence re distance of shots, layout of the farmhouse.
Why would his first instincts on seeing his daughter with a gun be to leave her on her own to kill his wife and grandchildren while he took himself off to phone his son, moreover knowing that he had gone downstairs why did Sheila not pursue him first as he posed the most danger to her? Furthermore how did Nevill arrive dead downstairs if he was shot dead upstairs?
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Why would his first instincts on seeing his daughter with a gun be to leave her on her own to kill his wife and grandchildren while he took himself off to phone his son, moreover knowing that he had gone downstairs why did Sheila not pursue him first as he posed the most danger to her? Furthermore how did Nevill arrive dead downstairs if he was shot dead upstairs?
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* by Holy magic
We know what happened, Holly is simply trying to manipulate events to suit her own agenda. Bamber can have as many tests as he wants until the cows come home but it won't change anything.
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http://www.crimescene-forensics.com/Shooting_Recon.html
"With proper documentation and measurements, it is possible to dermine bullet paths, location of shooters, location of injured parties and muzzle to target distances."
There's your problem.
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We are told by JB he received a phone call from NB:
"Sheila's gone crazy she's got the gun".
We could all speculate about exactly what was or wasn't going on. All that can ever be determined is what the physical evidence supports: blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories of shots and wound tracks. When all these pieces are carefully fitted together they complete a picture or video on par with cctv.
The above clearly shows NB sustained his facial gunshot wounds when he was stood on the landing stairs and the perp was inside the bedroom shooting out onto the landing. NB then turned to retreat downstairs and when he was on the main staircase he sustained the two gunshot wounds to his rear.
It is not something you can arrive at overnight. You need to work through the pathology reports, blood stain evidence, casing evidence, ballistics evidence re distance of shots, layout of the farmhouse.
Although I think this is just fantasy, how do you imagine anyone would be allowed access to WHF to complete a reconstruction?
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Why would his first instincts on seeing his daughter with a gun be to leave her on her own to kill his wife and grandchildren while he took himself off to phone his son, moreover knowing that he had gone downstairs why did Sheila not pursue him first as he posed the most danger to her? Furthermore how did Nevill arrive dead downstairs if he was shot dead upstairs?
Too many preconceived ideas and speculation. Try looking at the physical evidence.
You are the only one to have ever claimed NB was shot dead upstairs.
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I don't need a reconstruction to understand what really happened unless you are claiming that all the bullet casings were moved.
Nevill was alerted to movement in the house, Crispy probably heard it first. As Nevill went to investigate the shooter confronted him from the upstairs landing and backed him back into the master bedroom where he was shot in the mouth and shoulder and probably stumbled backwards. June was then shot in bed and shot again as she stumbled to her feet. Jeremy Bamber went downstairs to reload and Nevill staggered down after him leaving blood on the wall beside the stairs.
A fight ensued in which the glass ceiling globe was smashed and the breakfast table disturbed. Nevill slumber exhausted into his armchair and was shot again in the head. Those are the only conclusions one can come to according to the evidence.
The casings support NB shot on the landing and main stairs.
A shooting reconstruction should have taken place in preparation for trial as it would have done had the case been tried in US where gun crime is a regular occurrence.
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There's your problem.
Which measurements are required that are unavailable?
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Although I think this is just fantasy, how do you imagine anyone would be allowed access to WHF to complete a reconstruction?
What is fantasy?
You don't believe NB was shot in the bedroom.
CCRC have the power to enforce.
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What is fantasy?
You don't believe NB was shot in the bedroom.
CCRC have the power to enforce.
I think it's fantasy that a reconstruction prove anything and it's a hell a lot of a work and expense to try and show that a phone call was 'possible'. If it could prove a definite, then that would be different but it can't.
Why would the CCRC enforce a reconstruction? On what basis?
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Too many preconceived ideas and speculation. Try looking at the physical evidence.
You are the only one to have ever claimed NB was shot dead upstairs.
You claimed he was shot twice in the back upstairs. Presumably you believe be survived long enough to walk down the stairs to die in the kitchen? And there’s a trail of his blood to support this hypothesis?
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Why would his first instincts on seeing his daughter with a gun be to leave her on her own to kill his wife and grandchildren while he took himself off to phone his son, moreover knowing that he had gone downstairs why did Sheila not pursue him first as he posed the most danger to her? Furthermore how did Nevill arrive dead downstairs if he was shot dead upstairs?
It is possible that Nevill came downstairs to phone Jeremy and/or the police, knowing that Sheila had got hold of a gun (maybe she had done this before---who knows?), but never dreaming that she'd actually shoot anyone with it. Perhaps he didn't even think she was capable. Then, he heard shots, ran upstairs, and was shot himself, tried to escape, and was killed downstairs.
Just a scenario---not saying it actually happened, and not dismissing the possibility of Jeremy having done it!
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Oh, come off it mrswah! An ex-WWII mosquito pilot, trained in the use of firearms and a life-long user of them, who also blinded a relative in one eye with a deflected bullet and therefore was well aware of the damage they can do, suddenly becomes wimpy, thinks that Sheila is only pretending and fails to tackle her immediately? Never in a million years. It just wouldn't happen.
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Oh, come off it mrswah! An ex-WWII mosquito pilot, trained in the use of firearms and a life-long user of them, who also blinded a relative in one eye with a deflected bullet and therefore was well aware of the damage they can do, suddenly becomes wimpy, thinks that Sheila is only pretending and fails to tackle her immediately? Never in a million years. It just wouldn't happen.
Nevill would have disarmed her instantly without a shadow of a doubt. In order to overcome Nevill, a strong physical presence was needed. Sheila most certainly wasn't that person.
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It is possible that Nevill came downstairs to phone Jeremy and/or the police, knowing that Sheila had got hold of a gun (maybe she had done this before---who knows?), but never dreaming that she'd actually shoot anyone with it. Perhaps he didn't even think she was capable. Then, he heard shots, ran upstairs, and was shot himself, tried to escape, and was killed downstairs.
Just a scenario---not saying it actually happened, and not dismissing the possibility of Jeremy having done it!
KNowing guns as well as he did, he would have noticed that she had attached the magazine rendering it dangerous - he wouldn't have left her with a loaded gun in a state where she was both a danger to herself and others.
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You claimed he was shot twice in the back upstairs. Presumably you believe be survived long enough to walk down the stairs to die in the kitchen? And there’s a trail of his blood to support this hypothesis?
I didn't say NB was shot in the back. I said he was shot in the rear when he was on the main staircase.
No one disputes NB was shot 4 times upstairs and 4 times in the kitchen as per the casings. Any of the gunshot wounds he sustained in the kitchen immobilised him immediately. So given his body was found in the kitchen we know he must have died there unless you want to get into SC or JB moving this 6' 4" muscular male along with the casings.
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I didn't say NB was shot in the back. I said he was shot in the rear when he was on the main staircase.
No one disputes NB was shot 4 times upstairs and 4 times in the kitchen as per the casings. Any of the gunshot wounds he sustained in the kitchen immobilised him immediately. So given his body was found in the kitchen we know he must have died there unless you want to get into SC or JB moving this 6' 4" muscular male along with the casings.
So he gets up, sees Sheila with a gun, goes downstairs, phones Bamber, hears shots, goes back upstairs, gets shot twice in the rear, then goes back down stairs (blood trail?), followed by Sheila, who shoots him 4 times when he is in the kitchen. When does she reload the gun and what is Nevill doing at this point?
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Did people here know Nevill Bamber so well that they can tell us how he would have reacted to a situation even though they don't actually know for sure what the situation was?
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Did people here know Nevill Bamber so well that they can tell us how he would have reacted to a situation even though they don't actually know for sure what the situation was?
Some people here seem to know Sheila so well that they think they know how she would have reacted to the suggestion she go to Bournemouth and that she was capable of murdering her nearest and dearest because of it .
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Did people here know Nevill Bamber so well that they can tell us how he would have reacted to a situation even though they don't actually know for sure what the situation was?
Given his background as a war hero, his standing in the community, his position as magistrate, the testimonies of friends and employees, I think it's possible to make an intelligent guess.
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Unless there are posters on here who are close to the family, I think we are all guessing! Of course we don't know what Nevill and Sheila were really like. We have probably all become so involved with discussing the case , that it feels as if we know what they were like.
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Unless there are posters on here who are close to the family, I think we are all guessing! Of course we don't know what Nevill and Sheila were really like. We have probably all become so involved with discussing the case , that it feels as if we know what they were like.
Then I guess you'd have to say that all the glowing testimonies given by his friends, colleagues, and employees are lies. I agree that we all probably think we know them well, when in fact, we only know them for a very short and tragic period in their lives.
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Given his background as a war hero, his standing in the community, his position as magistrate, the testimonies of friends and employees, I think it's possible to make an intelligent guess.
I'm sure Nevill Bamber was a respected member of the community, but that's not enough to predict his actions when faced with a family crisis.
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I'm sure Nevill Bamber was a respected member of the community, but that's not enough to predict his actions when faced with a family crisis.
What others have to say can give good guidance and insight to a person's character and make intelligent guesses more likely to be right than wrong. I've yet to hear anything positive said of Jeremy. Again, intelligent guesses can't all be wrong.
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What others have to say can give good guidance and insight to a person's character and make intelligent guesses more likely to be right than wrong. I've yet to hear anything positive said of Jeremy. Again, intelligent guesses can't all be wrong.
Adoption societies used to rely on people's public personnas to make judgements about their suitability to parent children. The truth of the matter is that a person's public personna is only one part of their character.
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I'm sure Nevill Bamber was a respected member of the community, but that's not enough to predict his actions when faced with a family crisis.
From what I have read, June was also a respected member of her community, but it seems that Sheila, Colin and the twins had issues with her.
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Did people here know Nevill Bamber so well that they can tell us how he would have reacted to a situation even though they don't actually know for sure what the situation was?
I think it's safe to say he wasn't an idiot and so had a pretty good handle on common sense.
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Adoption societies used to rely on people's public personnas to make judgements about their suitability to parent children. The truth of the matter is that a person's public personna is only one part of their character.
Which is an entirely different issue.
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Which is an entirely different issue.
No it isn't. Relying on a person's public persona to predict what they might do or how they might behave isn't a reliable method whatever the issue is.
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No it isn't. Relying on a person's public persona to predict what they might do or how they might behave isn't a reliable method whatever the issue is.
It is because common sense predicts that a man well versed with firearms, isn't going to leave his already 'going crazy', paranoid schizophrenic daughter to run rampage with a loaded rifle while he pops off to phone Jeremy.
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No it isn't. Relying on a person's public persona to predict what they might do or how they might behave isn't a reliable method whatever the issue is.
His public persona is not being discussed, his life experience and physicality are.
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Adoption societies used to rely on people's public personnas to make judgements about their suitability to parent children. The truth of the matter is that a person's public personna is only one part of their character.
What has that got to do with it? How can you compare the limited amount of time the adoption societies spend with prospective parents with the length of time they're known widely by those who've known them on a daily basis. The National Adoption Society was concerned only with my parents' income and that I'd have my own room.
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What has that got to do with it? How can you compare the limited amount of time the adoption societies spend with prospective parents with the length of time they're known widely by those who've known them on a daily basis. The National Adoption Society was concerned only with my parents' income and that I'd have my own room.
Because it allows you to disregard facts which don’t fit with your theory.
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Both statements mention wellingtons, so whever the wellingtons were that's where the rifle was. It was the magazine which was left on the settle. It seems that certain areas of the house had interchangeable names; hallway/scullery and den/office. In some areas of the UK scullery was used interchangeably with kitchen. I remember that.
Jeremy said in his first statement that he left the RIFLE in the HALLWAY
Jeremy said in his second statement that he left the RIFLE in the KITCHEN
KITCHEN
HALLWAY
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Dr Vanezis would not have committed himself to anything he didn't feel competent in.
With regard to your assertion above, you're wrong. DI Cooke telephoned FSS and was told a ballistics expert couldn't be spared.
How am I wrong?
I said that Dr Vanezis asked the police to fetch a ballistics expert and they were either “unwilling or unable”
In the event they were unable to as one wasn’t available
So how am I wrong about that?
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Exactly. If Sheila did the killings why was the silencer hidden away in a cupboard?
Hidden in a carrier bag, too!
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Hidden in a carrier bag, too!
Presumably the response (I will have to presume as most of my questions seem to be being ignored by Bamber supporters) would be that no silencer was used and that for some reason known only to Nevill he decided to hide the silencer in a bag in the cupboard himself before the shootings.
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Before any shots were fired.
There's no question all the physical evidence at soc supports NB in the kitchen on the tel to JB with SC upstairs opening fire on June in bed. NB hearing the shots drops the phone and goes upstairs where he sustains the facial shots on the landing stairs and the shots to his rear on the main stairs after he turned to retreat back downstairs.
It will never be known what preceded this.
What physical evidence supports that?
None whatsoever!
You’re just refusing to accept the facts because you can’t bear to face them for some reason.
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To be even more precise as per the toxicology reports:
Liver = 0.55 micrograms per gram
Blood = 15 nanograms per millilitre
The above levels put the dosage just above low into medium.
And?
So she had a medium dosage of Haloperidol in her system — still ample to cause her severe lethargy, shakiness, tiredness and weakness.
Sheila was 27 and had only been prescribed that medication for a relatively short time; for 25 years or more she lived without that drug and never once even attempted violence on one single person.
Never once did she attack anyone.
Never once did she try to commit suicide.
Your suggestions that Sheila was violent without medication is completely false, and quite frankly, disgraceful to her memory.
Remember, Jeremy Bamber murdered Sheila
He murdered her two six-year-old sons
He murdered his parents
You need to remember that
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JB would not have heard the sound of gunshot fired in the bedroom down the phone line situated in the kitchen.
The physical evidence at soc all supports NB shot on the landing stairs and main stairs. None of the evidence supports him shot in the bedroom. This in itself supports the defence case of NB calling JB from the kitchen, hearing gunshot, dropping the phone and going upstairs where he was shot standing on the landing stairs with SC shooting out of the bedroom onto the landing.
To date a shooting reconstruction hasn't taken place but all the data relating to the physical evidence is available for this to happen.
Anyone can argue the points with me just so long as they realise no expert evidence exists so its one lay view against another.
What utter nonsense, Holly
I can’t be bothered to shred your ridiculous theory to bits, but I’ll give you just one point to consider which proves it’s rubbish: Jeremy claimed the line went dead, like someone had cut it off. So Nevill couldn’t have dropped the phone at all..
You’re really clutching at straws now and you’re making yourself look desperate
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It is because common sense predicts that a man well versed with firearms, isn't going to leave his already 'going crazy', paranoid schizophrenic daughter to run rampage with a loaded rifle while he pops off to phone Jeremy.
If his daughter had locked herself in a room with a gun, is threatening suicide and he can't get her to come out he might.
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The casings support NB shot on the landing and main stairs.
A shooting reconstruction should have taken place in preparation for trial as it would have done had the case been tried in US where gun crime is a regular occurrence.
Had a shooting reconstruction taken place back in the 1985, Holly, all it would have proved is that t would have been absolutely impossible for Sheila to have shot herself 8((()*/
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I'm sure Nevill Bamber was a respected member of the community, but that's not enough to predict his actions when faced with a family crisis.
Well, he put up a HUGE fight in the kitchen — and that was after being shot four times upstairs!
So it’s safe to say he was no wimpy pushover!
Some of the comments on here make me question why I bother even replying to them...
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If his daughter had locked herself in a room with a gun, is threatening suicide and he can't get her to come out he might.
Was her room lockable from the inside? Where was the gun’s silencer when this was all going on?
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If his daughter had locked herself in a room with a gun, is threatening suicide and he can't get her to come out he might.
Incidentally, for someone who only deals in facts and who refuses to do any speculation on a other part of the forum, you sure do alot of it here!
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If his daughter had locked herself in a room with a gun, is threatening suicide and he can't get her to come out he might.
But that didn’t happen.
And had it happened, Nevill wouldn’t have rang useless Jeremy — what could he have done?
Nevill would have called for a doctor or an ambulance
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But that didn’t happen.
And had it happened, Nevill wouldn’t have rang useless Jeremy — what could he have done?
Nevill would have called for a doctor or an ambulance
Everything you say is speculation, and despite your unshakeable conviction that your speculations are correct you can't offer any proof. Therefore my speculations have equal value to yours.
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Everything you say is speculation, and despite your unshakeable conviction that your speculations are correct you can't offer any proof. Therefore my speculations have equal value to yours.
Not really. A jury found Jeremy Bamber guilty. One might say the prosecution's speculations carried more weight than the defence's.
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The casings support NB shot on the landing and main stairs.
A shooting reconstruction should have taken place in preparation for trial as it would have done had the case been tried in US where gun crime is a regular occurrence.
So all the bullet casings magically appeared in the master bedroom instead of toppling down the stairs?
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What is fantasy?
You don't believe NB was shot in the bedroom.
CCRC have the power to enforce.
CCRC are merely an advisory body, they cannot enforce anything my dear.
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So all the bullet casings magically appeared in the master bedroom instead of toppling down the stairs?
One was found on the landing stairs and another on the transition strip.
Some seem to struggle to understand the spacial relationship between perp, victim, muzzle and casing ejection pattern.
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CCRC are merely an advisory body, they cannot enforce anything my dear.
Oh my dear Angelo how wrong you are. Please refer to section 2 re wide-ranging powers of CCRC:
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To be even more precise as per the toxicology reports:
Liver = 0.55 micrograms per gram
Blood = 15 nanograms per millilitre
The above levels put the dosage just above low into medium.
So still medicated.
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Oh my dear Angelo how wrong you are. Please refer to section 2 re wide-ranging powers of CCRC:
Again (and apologies if you already answered), why would the CCRC request the reconstruction? No one other than. yourself is asking for one so .......... ?
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Again (and apologies if you already answered), why would the CCRC request the reconstruction? No one other than. yourself is asking for one so .......... ?
The case will be referred back to Coa based on new forensic tests relating to blood/silencer. Once the referral has been made it paves the way for any additional points to be made which alone or collectively would not be sufficient for a referral but add to the defence case.
To date a shooting reconstruction hasn't taken place but given all the material exists for it to happen, and imo it will support the defence case, then why not?
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So still medicated.
Yes as per toxicology reports. But there's no evidence from a pharmacologist about any side effects produced by this level of toxicology.
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Had a shooting reconstruction taken place back in the 1985, Holly, all it would have proved is that t would have been absolutely impossible for Sheila to have shot herself 8((()*/
The pathologist makes quite clear SC could have inflicted both wounds.
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Jeremy said in his first statement that he left the RIFLE in the HALLWAY
Jeremy said in his second statement that he left the RIFLE in the KITCHEN
KITCHEN
HALLWAY
He was consistent with the fact he left the rifle near the wellingtons.
Unlikely June (and NB) would allow wellingtons in the kitchen when a rear hall and scullery existed.
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The pathologist makes quite clear SC could have inflicted both wounds.
He was concerned that she had been shot twice. You make it sound like V was adamant that she killed herself and that is not the case. He has issues about the CS.
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He was consistent with the fact he left the rifle near the wellingtons.
Unlikely June (and NB) would allow wellingtons in the kitchen when a rear hall and scullery existed.
Erm, in both of hs statements he said he left the rifle by the:
WELLINGTONS in the KITCHEN
WELLINGTONS in the HALLWAY
HE was clearly lying...
He can’t have left the rifle in BOTH the hallways AND the kitchen
You assume Bambers’ wouldn’t have allowed wellingtons in the kitchen, but I believe you yourself said they weren’t particularly house-proud — others have certainly said that
Remember, they were a farming family surrounded by animals, and also had their own pets, one of whom slept slept in the kitchen, so I doubt wellingtons were banned from the kitchen...
Whatever, Jeremy has proven in B&W that he’s a liar.
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Erm, in both of hs statements he said he left the rifle by the:
WELLINGTONS in the KITCHEN
WELLINGTONS in the HALLWAY
HE was clearly lying...
He can’t have left the rifle in BOTH the hallways AND the kitchen
You assume Bambers’ wouldn’t have allowed wellingtons in the kitchen, but I believe you yourself said they weren’t particularly house-proud — others have certainly said that
Remember, they were a farming family surrounded by animals, and also had their own pets, one of whom slept slept in the kitchen, so I doubt wellingtons were banned from the kitchen...
Whatever, Jeremy has proven in B&W that he’s a liar.
The full context of his statements make clear he is referring to the area in the rear hall by the settle.
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He was concerned that she had been shot twice. You make it sound like V was adamant that she killed herself and that is not the case. He has issues about the CS.
He was adamant he found nothing to contradict murder/suicide.
He had experience of 4 or 5 suicide cases involving death by multiple gunshot wounds.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=738
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He was adamant he found nothing to contradict murder/suicide.
He had experience of 4 or 5 suicide cases involving death by multiple gunshot wounds.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=738
You know fine well that he said he would have had concerns had he visited the scene.
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You know fine well that he said he would have had concerns had he visited the scene.
Yes, post trial. I think he was hedging his bets:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=744
B and C were down to those at soc moving and A and D were the responsibility of ballastics and biologist.
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Yes, post trial. I think he was hedging his bets:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=744
B and C were down to those at soc moving and A and D were the responsibility of ballastics and biologist.
It doesn't matter when it was, post trial was when he had the full picture - he had concerns!
It's your opinion that SOC moved things and even the evidence that you have used to support this notion actually proved the opposite - specifically Woodcock.
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It doesn't matter when it was, post trial was when he had the full picture - he had concerns!
It's your opinion that SOC moved things and even the evidence that you have used to support this notion actually proved the opposite - specifically Woodcock.
If there was anything glaringly obvious he would have said as much to the four officers present during autopsy and/or to the officers present when he visited WHF having undertaken the four autopsies when they sat around a table and had a "candid" discussion. But he didn't because there was nothing to contradict murder/suicide.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=740
It is obvious SC was moved at soc based on A/PS Woodcock's testimony along with forensic scientist Martyn Ismail's.
It's all to play for because to date the defence has not argued SC was moved by those present at soc and/or that NB sustained his facial shots on the landing stairs.
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If there was anything glaringly obvious he would have said as much to the four officers present during autopsy and/or to the officers present when he visited WHF having undertaken the four autopsies when they sat around a table and had a "candid" discussion. But he didn't because there was nothing to contradict murder/suicide.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=740
It is obvious SC was moved at soc based on A/PS Woodcock's testimony along with forensic scientist Martyn Ismail's.
It's all to play for because to date the defence has not argued SC was moved by those present at soc and/or that NB sustained his facial shots on the landing stairs.
His concerns were born from seeing the SC pictures of Sheila at the scene - at the points you're talking about, he hadn't. He had concerns which came from further information. How many victims of Shipman raised no initial concerns?
You think it's all to play for but the CS photograph of Sheila proves she wasn't moved and Woodcock's statement backs up the CS photograph. Further, do you really think that the CCRC would give permission for a recon on the basis that NB 'could' (not did) have called Bamber?
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Two casings out of DRH 3, 4, 13 and 14 resulted from the last two shots to June's head, which means that Holly's idea of Nevill being shot four times whilst on the landing(s) and stairs is unsustainable, simply because the rifle was pointing downwards and the casings ejected to its right, directly onto and cushioned by the carpet near the doorway.
https://www.dropbox.com/h?preview=Anschutz-Casing-Ejection-Large.gif (https://www.dropbox.com/h?preview=Anschutz-Casing-Ejection-Large.gif)
Where's the expert evidence that two out of DRH 3, 4, 13 and 14 resulted from the last two shots to June's head?
The casing ejection pattern supports NB shot on the landing stairs and main stairs with perp initially firing out of bedroom and onto landing and then behind NB on the stairs.
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Where's the expert evidence that two out of DRH 3, 4, 13 and 14 resulted from the last two shots to June's head?
The casing ejection pattern supports NB shot on the landing stairs and main stairs with perp initially firing out of bedroom and onto landing and then behind NB on the stairs.
By the same token Holly, (and although I agree), which expert said NB was shot on the stairs/landing?
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Where's the expert evidence that two out of DRH 3, 4, 13 and 14 resulted from the last two shots to June's head?
The casing ejection pattern supports NB shot on the landing stairs and main stairs with perp initially firing out of bedroom and onto landing and then behind NB on the stairs.
Where did the two casings attributed to the last shots to June come to rest? They can't have passed through a solid bedroom door to land on the floor at June's bedside! You seem to avoid answering that question, perhaps because it doesn't fit in with your highly implausible idea that Nevill was dawding on the phone whilst allowing his daughter to cause mayhem upstairs. If anyone in authority responsible for reconsidering Bamber's guilt reads your suggestions, they'll laugh them out the door, just as they will with his campaign team's kitchen window-latch photo trickery and Sheila's alleged 'suicide' note.
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By the same token Holly, (and although I agree), which expert said NB was shot on the stairs/landing?
Where do you think the casings attributed to the two head shots to June come to rest, Caroline?
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So he gets up, sees Sheila with a gun, goes downstairs, phones Bamber, hears shots, goes back upstairs, gets shot twice in the rear, then goes back down stairs (blood trail?), followed by Sheila, who shoots him 4 times when he is in the kitchen. When does she reload the gun and what is Nevill doing at this point?
Bump.
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Where did the two casings attributed to the last shots to June come to rest? They can't have passed through a solid bedroom door to land on the floor at June's bedside! You seem to avoid answering that question, perhaps because it doesn't fit in with your highly implausible idea that Nevill was dawding on the phone whilst allowing his daughter to cause mayhem upstairs. If anyone in authority responsible for reconsidering Bamber's guilt reads your suggestions, they'll laugh them out the door, just as they will with his campaign team's kitchen window-latch photo trickery and Sheila's alleged 'suicide' note.
The casings are one aspect of the physical evidence. I have always said the totality of the physical evidence supports NB shot on the landing stairs and main staircase as opposed to within the bedroom. We know from research that casings are only an indicator due to the fact they ricochet, roll, get kicked around etc.
The pathological evidence is clear either of the headshots June sustained immobilised her immediately but you seem to be assuming she sustained them in the exact same position she is in on soc images whereas it's possible she was stood, or even crawling, around the bottom of the bed facing out onto the landing and the perp seeing/hearing June inflicted the headshots and June then ended up in the position as per soc images.
I will go take a look at the wound tracks again.
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The casings are one aspect of the physical evidence. I have always said the totality of the physical evidence supports NB shot on the landing stairs and main staircase as opposed to within the bedroom. We know from research that casings are only an indicator due to the fact they ricochet, roll, get kicked around etc.
The pathological evidence is clear either of the headshots June sustained immobilised her immediately but you seem to be assuming she sustained them in the exact same position she is in on soc images whereas it's possible she was stood, or even crawling, around the bottom of the bed facing out onto the landing and the perp seeing/hearing June inflicted the headshots and June then ended up in the position as per soc images.
I will go take a look at the wound tracks again.
I wonder why June didn't go for the other door?
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The casings are one aspect of the physical evidence. I have always said the totality of the physical evidence supports NB shot on the landing stairs and main staircase as opposed to within the bedroom. We know from research that casings are only an indicator due to the fact they ricochet, roll, get kicked around etc.
The pathological evidence is clear either of the headshots June sustained immobilised her immediately but you seem to be assuming she sustained them in the exact same position she is in on soc images whereas it's possible she was stood, or even crawling, around the bottom of the bed facing out onto the landing and the perp seeing/hearing June inflicted the headshots and June then ended up in the position as per soc images.
I will go take a look at the wound tracks again.
Or in other words, a ballistic reconstruction of your Nevill on the landing/stairs theory will prove absolutely nothing about where the shots were fired from or where the casings came to rest.
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The casings are one aspect of the physical evidence. I have always said the totality of the physical evidence supports NB shot on the landing stairs and main staircase as opposed to within the bedroom. We know from research that casings are only an indicator due to the fact they ricochet, roll, get kicked around etc.
The pathological evidence is clear either of the headshots June sustained immobilised her immediately but you seem to be assuming she sustained them in the exact same position she is in on soc images whereas it's possible she was stood, or even crawling, around the bottom of the bed facing out onto the landing and the perp seeing/hearing June inflicted the headshots and June then ended up in the position as per soc images.
I will go take a look at the wound tracks again.
And give another unqualified opinion?
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Or in other words, a ballistic reconstruction of your Nevill on the landing/stairs theory will prove absolutely nothing about where the shots were fired from or where the casings came to rest.
It's all bravado from that IA board.
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At what point does Sheila re-load the gun and what is Nevill doing while she does this?
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At what point does Sheila re-load the gun and what is Nevill doing while she does this?
Wondering when the twins were shot too. I'm pretty sure they died first given that they didn't wake.
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Wondering when the twins were shot too. I'm pretty sure they died first given that they didn't wake.
I think they were shot last. A silencer was used, and kids tend to sleep through noise you wouldn’t expect them to anyway, plus if it’s true their mum was prone to attacks of hysterics they had probably learned to keep out of the way by then and stayed n their beds.
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I think they were shot last. A silencer was used, and kids tend to sleep through noise you wouldn’t expect them to anyway, plus if it’s true their mum was prone to attacks of hysterics they had probably learned to keep out of the way by then and stayed n their beds.
There would have been a hell of a commotion and the way they were found indicated that hadn't woken. I doubt Bamber would have had the guts to kill them if they were awake and looking him straight in the eye. He couldn't chance that they would wake up.
Found this though - interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7SFWHLi9cc
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There would have been a hell of a commotion and the way they were found indicated that hadn't woken. I doubt Bamber would have had the guts to kill them if they were awake and looking him straight in the eye. He couldn't chance that they would wake up.
Found this though - interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7SFWHLi9cc
My reasoning was that he may have used the fact that they were still alive to force Sheila to lie down so that he could stage her suicide, telling her that she must do as he says or he will kill the boys. Once he has killed her he leaves the worst job to last. IMO.
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My reasoning was that he may have used the fact that they were still alive to force Sheila to lie down so that he could stage her suicide, telling her that sue must do as he says or he will kill the boys. Once he has killed her he leaves the worst job to last. IMO.
Of course that could have been the case but personally I think she lay down of her own accord, finding out the boy were dead, she's have nothing to live for and be so distraught I doubt she would have had much resistance.
On a side note, I have found this vid. Knowing nothing about guns, I was happy to accept that a suppressor wouldn't make much difference to the noise value of the shots. This video proves otherwise!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFvXRviPODc
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Of course that could have been the case but personally I think she lay down of her own accord, finding out the boy were dead, she's have nothing to live for and be so distraught I doubt she would have had much resistance.
On a side note, I have found this vid. Knowing nothing about guns, I was happy to accept that a suppressor wouldn't make much difference to the noise value of the shots. This video proves otherwise!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFvXRviPODc
It certainly does.
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In my view Bamber shot his parents first, injuring both, Nevill chased Jeremy or was chased by Jeremy downstairs where a violent struggle ensued in which Nevill was killed. Bamber reloaded, went back upstairs to find Sheila in his parents room, finished off his mother and then got Sheila to lie down and killed her. Reloaded again, then killed the boys. As a newbie to the case I fully expect to be told this can’t possibly be right.. PS I think it is significant that there were two shots to Sheila and 8 to the boys, making 10, ie a fully loaded gun’s worth, and this lends weight to my theory.
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Wondering when the twins were shot too. I'm pretty sure they died first given that they didn't wake.
The silencer being used would not arouse any suspicion until Bamber started on Nevill.
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I wonder why June didn't go for the other door?
Afaik the doors between June/NB's bedroom were accessible and free of clutter. I believe one of the single beds in the twins room half covered the entrance but it was still accessible: entry and exit.
I think June probably walked around the bed intending to use the phone usually kept by NB's side of the bed. When she realised it was missing she walked back again perhaps intending to use another phone situated in the upstairs office?
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Or in other words, a ballistic reconstruction of your Nevill on the landing/stairs theory will prove absolutely nothing about where the shots were fired from or where the casings came to rest.
You do not know June's position when she sustained the headshots. The casings are one small part of a reconstruction.
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It's all bravado from that IA board.
On what basis do you believe a reconstruction isn't possible?
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At what point does Sheila re-load the gun and what is Nevill doing while she does this?
The pathologist states when NB sustained his downstairs gsw's he thinks NB was immobilised due to the fact there was no deflection.
The 4 gsw's NB sustained upstairs would have killed him had the downstairs shots not supervened. By the time NB arrived in the kitchen he was near dead so time was not of the essence for a reload.
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Afaik the doors between June/NB's bedroom were accessible and free of clutter. I believe one of the single beds in the twins room half covered the entrance but it was still accessible: entry and exit.
I think June probably walked around the bed intending to use the phone usually kept by NB's side of the bed. When she realised it was missing she walked back again perhaps intending to use another phone situated in the upstairs office?
This would mean the bedroom phone was in the bedroom. She would notice whether a phone was by her bed or not. She slept there.
Bamber put it downstairs in the kitchen as part of the staging.
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Wondering when the twins were shot too. I'm pretty sure they died first given that they didn't wake.
We have both studied psychology at degree level? You might recall the sleep part of the syllabus where we all go through different stages in a sleep cycle with stages 3 and 4 difficult to wake from?
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I think they were shot last. A silencer was used, and kids tend to sleep through noise you wouldn’t expect them to anyway, plus if it’s true their mum was prone to attacks of hysterics they had probably learned to keep out of the way by then and stayed n their beds.
What evidence do you have that the silencer was used?
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What evidence do you have that the silencer was used?
Sheila's blood and the aga paint on it.
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There would have been a hell of a commotion and the way they were found indicated that hadn't woken. I doubt Bamber would have had the guts to kill them if they were awake and looking him straight in the eye. He couldn't chance that they would wake up.
Found this though - interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7SFWHLi9cc
So JB would risk discharging the rifle 8 times before taking on his greatest adversary?
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Of course that could have been the case but personally I think she lay down of her own accord, finding out the boy were dead, she's have nothing to live for and be so distraught I doubt she would have had much resistance.
On a side note, I have found this vid. Knowing nothing about guns, I was happy to accept that a suppressor wouldn't make much difference to the noise value of the shots. This video proves otherwise!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFvXRviPODc
The farmhouse: bricks and mortar along with all the fixtures, fittings, furniture and soft furnishings totally change the acoustics.
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It certainly does.
No it doesn't. You can't compare the sound of a firearm discharged outdoors with one discharged indoors with all the normal home comforts eg carpets, curtains etc as it totally changes the acoustics.
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In my view Bamber shot his parents first, injuring both, Nevill chased Jeremy or was chased by Jeremy downstairs where a violent struggle ensued in which Nevill was killed. Bamber reloaded, went back upstairs to find Sheila in his parents room, finished off his mother and then got Sheila to lie down and killed her. Reloaded again, then killed the boys. As a newbie to the case I fully expect to be told this can’t possibly be right.. PS I think it is significant that there were two shots to Sheila and 8 to the boys, making 10, ie a fully loaded gun’s worth, and this lends weight to my theory.
The rifle and mag were capable of taking a total of 11 cartridges. JB would have gone tooled up.
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Sheila's blood and the aga paint on it.
We are told human blood was found in the silencer although no photographic evidence exists to support this claim.
We are also told the blood found in the silencer matched SC's blood groups but this is not the same as SC's blood.
At the time 8% of the white British population shared SC's blood groups. This was pre DNA testing.
Post DNA testing (using LCN) did not reveal SC's DNA in the silencer
I am working with others on two tests to undermine the blood in the silencer. If these go the way anticipated it will show the silencer was fabricated and the scratches will die with it.
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So JB would risk discharging the rifle 8 times before taking on his greatest adversary?
Julie said Bamber told her he shot the twins first. This would have been 1 shot each.
He may have planned to fire 8 shots in the main bedroom. Leaving 1 bullet for Sheila. Nevill rising resulted in two unplanned torso shots & an empty rifle.
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We are told human blood was found in the silencer although no photographic evidence exists to support this claim.
We are also told the blood found in the silencer matched SC's blood groups but this is not the same as SC's blood.
At the time 8% of the white British population shared SC's blood groups. This was pre DNA testing.
Post DNA testing (using LCN) did not reveal SC's DNA in the silencer
I am working with others on two tests to undermine the blood in the silencer. If these go the way anticipated it will show the silencer was fabricated and the scratches will die with it.
Do you believe the relatives or police fabricated the silencer. Or was it a team effort?
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Do you believe the relatives or police fabricated the silencer. Or was it a team effort?
In terms of the the blood flake which underpins JB's conviction, which we are told was found inside the silencer and matched SC's blood groups, I do not believe the relatives or police fabricated.
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In terms of the the blood flake which underpins JB's conviction, which we are told was found inside the silencer and matched SC's blood groups, I do not believe the relatives or police fabricated.
Who did?
Who fabricated the aga paint?
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We have both studied psychology at degree level? You might recall the sleep part of the syllabus where we all go through different stages in a sleep cycle with stages 3 and 4 difficult to wake from?
Ah, so that's it! Psychology grads are fascinated by the WHF case-----hm !
I'm another one!
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Who did?
FSS
Who fabricated the aga paint?
The officer who was in the thick of it fabricated the scratches, hair and blood on the outside knowing the quantity was so small it would be incapable of yielding any result beyond human in origin.
When it was realised this would be insufficient to secure a conviction FSS stepped up on the basis they were told JB would get away with it and the silencer and JM's testimony showed beyond doubt he was responsible.
The only caveat I would add to the above is the fact PE and CN stayed outside WHF in CN's campervan and may have gone along with the officer in the thick of it.
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FSS
The officer who was in the thick of it fabricated the scratches, hair and blood on the outside knowing the quantity was so small it would be incapable of yielding any result beyond human in origin.
When it was realised this would be insufficient to secure a conviction FSS stepped up on the basis they were told JB would get away with it and the silencer and JM's testimony showed beyond doubt he was responsible.
The only caveat I would add to the above is the fact PE and CN stayed outside WHF in CN's campervan and may have gone along with the officer in the thick of it.
Who is FSS ??
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Ah, so that's it! Psychology grads are fascinated by the WHF case-----hm !
I'm another one!
8((()*/
My interest really stems from the adoption angle, June's mental illness 1959 and its likely effect on SC with regards to 'attachment theory'.
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Ah, so that's it! Psychology grads are fascinated by the WHF case-----hm !
I'm another one!
As am I, but my interest is in the stories which form the background to this tragedy. It didn't happen in isolation. It could even be generational, but I have NO doubts about adoption being at the heart of it. Naturally, I'm not trying to undermine the importance of forensic evidence.
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Who is FSS ??
Forensic Science Service which Parliament acknowledged had quality issues in 1980's @ 3.3.1
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmsctech/writev/forensic/m61.htm
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Forensic Science Service which Parliament acknowledged had quality issues in 1980's @ 3.3.1
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmsctech/writev/forensic/m61.htm
Thanks Holly!
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The full context of his statements make clear he is referring to the area in the rear hall by the settle.
They don’t at all
It’s there in black and white, Holly
He first said he left the rifle in the hallway
Then in the next statement he said he’d left it in the kitchen
This s becoming tedious...
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The pathologist makes quite clear SC could have inflicted both wounds.
He RELUCTANTLY said it was POSSIBLE she’d shot herself twice, but that was PRIOR to him knowing the gun wasn’t an automatic; knowing the gun had a silencer on it making it impossible for Sheila to shoot herself even once
Furthermore, since then, Vanezis has said Sheila could not have got up after the first shot as she had a fractured spine where the bullet passed through her throat into her back
It’s so, so easy to understand...I’m amazed anyone at all finds it hard to understand
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If there was anything glaringly obvious he would have said as much to the four officers present during autopsy and/or to the officers present when he visited WHF having undertaken the four autopsies when they sat around a table and had a "candid" discussion. But he didn't because there was nothing to contradict murder/suicide.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=740
It is obvious SC was moved at soc based on A/PS Woodcock's testimony along with forensic scientist Martyn Ismail's.
It's all to play for because to date the defence has not argued SC was moved by those present at soc and/or that NB sustained his facial shots on the landing stairs.
That’s complete rubbish
When the pathologist went to soc DCI Jones stormed in, hs face purple with rage, and shouted: “What’s HE doing here?!”
DCI Jones was a disgrace. He oversaw the investigation in the most inept, unprofessional, shortsighted way imaginable
Some people have even suggested he may have had connections with Jeremy Bamber for the way he tried to protect him
Whatever, the fact is that when the pathologist went to soc, both he and ALL the other police officers agreed it didn’t look like murder/suicide — which it wasn’t
Jeremy Bamber was later charged with murder after all the overwhelming evidence and convicted
He’d where he belongs — locked up forever
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We are told human blood was found in the silencer although no photographic evidence exists to support this claim.
We are also told the blood found in the silencer matched SC's blood groups but this is not the same as SC's blood.
At the time 8% of the white British population shared SC's blood groups. This was pre DNA testing.
Post DNA testing (using LCN) did not reveal SC's DNA in the silencer
I am working with others on two tests to undermine the blood in the silencer. If these go the way anticipated it will show the silencer was fabricated and the scratches will die with it.
Actually, when Sheila’s blood from the silencer was tested again the second time, it confirmed even more so that it was hers
This died a death years ago, Holly...why are you wasting your time in something that can’t be refuted?
Everyone knows Jeremy Bamber murdered his family: the evidence was/is overwhelming. Why do you find it so hard to accept?
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On what basis do you believe a reconstruction isn't possible?
On what basis do you imagine the CCRC would be compelled to order one?
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The pathologist states when NB sustained his downstairs gsw's he thinks NB was immobilised due to the fact there was no deflection.
The 4 gsw's NB sustained upstairs would have killed him had the downstairs shots not supervened. By the time NB arrived in the kitchen he was near dead so time was not of the essence for a reload.
I thought there was evidence of a violent struggle in the kitchen?
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What evidence do you have that the silencer was used?
Blood belonging to a human, thought to be SC inside the silencer. What was it doing there?
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The rifle and mag were capable of taking a total of 11 cartridges. JB would have gone tooled up.
How does that disprove my theory?
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No it doesn't. You can't compare the sound of a firearm discharged outdoors with one discharged indoors with all the normal home comforts eg carpets, curtains etc as it totally changes the acoustics.
What are you saying then? That a silencer doesn’t work indoors?
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We have both studied psychology at degree level? You might recall the sleep part of the syllabus where we all go through different stages in a sleep cycle with stages 3 and 4 difficult to wake from?
There is no way of knowing what stage of sleep the twins were in because stages run in a cycle lasting and then begin again. They could have been in any of the 4 stages when the shooting started.
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FSS
The officer who was in the thick of it fabricated the scratches, hair and blood on the outside knowing the quantity was so small it would be incapable of yielding any result beyond human in origin.
When it was realised this would be insufficient to secure a conviction FSS stepped up on the basis they were told JB would get away with it and the silencer and JM's testimony showed beyond doubt he was responsible.
The only caveat I would add to the above is the fact PE and CN stayed outside WHF in CN's campervan and may have gone along with the officer in the thick of it.
Ah, there was a conspiracy to fit up Bamber! Well that’s a very convenient explanation with zero evidence to support it.
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So JB would risk discharging the rifle 8 times before taking on his greatest adversary?
No, he only needed to shoot the twins once - the rest of the shots could have come later - just to make it look as though a crazy person was responsible.
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No it doesn't. You can't compare the sound of a firearm discharged outdoors with one discharged indoors with all the normal home comforts eg carpets, curtains etc as it totally changes the acoustics.
It would still affect the sound.
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We are told human blood was found in the silencer although no photographic evidence exists to support this claim.
We are also told the blood found in the silencer matched SC's blood groups but this is not the same as SC's blood.
At the time 8% of the white British population shared SC's blood groups. This was pre DNA testing.
Post DNA testing (using LCN) did not reveal SC's DNA in the silencer
I am working with others on two tests to undermine the blood in the silencer. If these go the way anticipated it will show the silencer was fabricated and the scratches will die with it.
You have been saying this for ages but you have a big issue in the fact that you would be unable to replicate the murder.
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8((()*/
My interest really stems from the adoption angle, June's mental illness 1959 and its likely effect on SC with regards to 'attachment theory'.
So this would apply to Jeremy too, no?
But in his case he’s a psychopath...
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You have been saying this for ages but you have a big issue in the fact that you wouldn't be unable to replicate the murder.
Indeed
Especially as all the victims have been dead 34 years, and many of the police officers who dealt with the case back then are dead too!
You need witnesses for a reconstruction, Holly , and you also need a good reason to have one — and there isn’t ONE
Furthermore, you can create a reconstruction any way you want...it’s only supposition and isn’t accurate
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Indeed
Especially as all the victims have been dead 34 years, and many of the police officers who dealt with the case back then are dead too!
You need witnesses for a reconstruction, Holly , and you also need a good reason to have one — and there isn’t ONE
Furthermore, you can create a reconstruction any way you want...it’s only supposition and isn’t accurate
It's also worth noting that not all experts agree and some change their minds.
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So this would apply to Jeremy too, no?
But in his case he’s a psychopath...
In as far as he was also adopted, yes.
In as far as he was around in 1959, no!
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In as far as he was also adopted, yes.
In as far as he was around in 1959, no!
[/ftp]
But June suffered breakdowns when Jeremy was there, and no-one knows if or when any were hushed up
What is established is that she accidentally dropped him on his head when he was a baby, and research proves that alone can cause psychopathy — but he may have been born with it
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[/ftp]
But June suffered breakdowns when Jeremy was there, and no-one knows if or when any were hushed up
What is established is that she accidentally dropped him on his head when he was a baby, and research proves that alone can cause psychopathy — but he may have been born with it
Nature or nurture? The age old debate.
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[/ftp]
But June suffered breakdowns when Jeremy was there, and no-one knows if or when any were hushed up
What is established is that she accidentally dropped him on his head when he was a baby, and research proves that alone can cause psychopathy — but he may have been born with it
Where is the evidence that Jeremy was dropped on his head as a baby? I'm not disbelieving you, but just wondered where you saw it, as I haven't.
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It was a rumour originating in a David Boutflour witness statement, although he also said that Jeremy's skull might have been damaged by an accidental fall. Agnes Low, June's close friend, mentioned something similar.
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It was a rumour originating in a David Boutflour witness statement, although he also said that Jeremy's skull might have been damaged by an accidental fall. Agnes Low, June's close friend, mentioned something similar.
Interestingly, he's never denied it - he can't if it's in his medical records.
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It was a rumour originating in a David Boutflour witness statement, although he also said that Jeremy's skull might have been damaged by an accidental fall. Agnes Low, June's close friend, mentioned something similar.
Thanks!
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Where is the evidence that Jeremy was dropped on his head as a baby? I'm not disbelieving you, but just wondered where you saw it, as I haven't.
It’s in CAL’s book
June took Jeremy to hospital after accidentally dropping him on his head, and I believe he may have suffered a fractured skull (though I need to check that)
He definitely did suffer some kind of fracture, though, because he blamed June for him failing his medical when he applied to become a trainee scuba diving teacher in New Zealand. He said if she hadn’t dropped him on his head he would have passed his medical.
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Interestingly, he's never denied it - he can't if it's in his medical records.
It’s also strange why he refused police access to his medical records
What was he hiding, I wonder....
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It’s also strange why he refused police access to his medical records
What was he hiding, I wonder....
Where's the evidence he refused the police access to his medi records?
The police were investigating a mass murder if they wanted access to medi records they could obtain with or without consent.
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Where's the evidence he refused the police access to his medi records?
The police were investigating a mass murder if they wanted access to medi records they could obtain with or without consent.
You're wrong, there is no obligation for health professionals to disclose medical records.
https://www.nottinghamshirelmc.co.uk/guidance/resource/medical-notes-requests-from-police/
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You're wrong, there is no obligation for health professionals to disclose medical records.
https://www.nottinghamshirelmc.co.uk/guidance/resource/medical-notes-requests-from-police/
Am I wrong?
What was the position in 1985/6 pre data prot act?
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You're wrong, there is no obligation for health professionals to disclose medical records.
https://www.nottinghamshirelmc.co.uk/guidance/resource/medical-notes-requests-from-police/
I think you've interpreted incorrectly. The police can obtain with a warrant regardless of any other factors.
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I think you've interpreted incorrectly. The police can obtain with a warrant regardless of any other factors.
Well in that case, if the police did seek a warrant to view his medical records – because Jeremy certainly REFUSED the police access to them — whatever they cane across in those notes confirmed to them that Jeremy had “previous” or/and history of a Personality Disorder and was their chief suspect
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It’s in CAL’s book
June took Jeremy to hospital after accidentally dropping him on his head, and I believe he may have suffered a fractured skull (though I need to check that)
He definitely did suffer some kind of fracture, though, because he blamed June for him failing his medical when he applied to become a trainee scuba diving teacher in New Zealand. He said if she hadn’t dropped him on his head he would have passed his medical.
Thank you!
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Well in that case, if the police did seek a warrant to view his medical records – because Jeremy certainly REFUSED the police access to them — whatever they cane across in those notes confirmed to them that Jeremy had “previous” or/and history of a Personality Disorder and was their chief suspect
Where's the evidence the police even asked JB for access to his medi records let alone he refused.
JB has never been diagnosed with any personality disorder.
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It’s in CAL’s book
June took Jeremy to hospital after accidentally dropping him on his head, and I believe he may have suffered a fractured skull (though I need to check that)
He definitely did suffer some kind of fracture, though, because he blamed June for him failing his medical when he applied to become a trainee scuba diving teacher in New Zealand. He said if she hadn’t dropped him on his head he would have passed his medical.
Where's the evidence June took JB to hospital after accidentally dropping him on his head?
June told her psychiatrist in 1982 about the incident as it seemed to prey on her mind. I will find the relevant testimony from the psychiatrist.
I've seen no evidence of a failed medical let alone that it was caused by a fracture to the head when June dropped JB during infancy.
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Am I wrong?
What was the position in 1985/6 pre data prot act?
Well, to coin a phrase, that is for. you establish.
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Well, to coin a phrase, that is for. you establish.
It's clearly stated in the link you uploaded.
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It's clearly stated in the link you uploaded.
What is?
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Where's the evidence the police even asked JB for access to his medi records let alone he refused.
JB has never been diagnosed with any personality disorder.
It’s in CAL’s book, and also on the Internet
Jeremy definitely refused permission for police to see his medical records. 100%.
The police must have got a court warrant to inspect them.
Jeremy was diagnosed with psychopathy by the prison psychiatrist when he was on remand. The psychiatrist wrote that in his opinion (and this was before the trial) Jeremy was guilty of the murders.
I have it somewhere and will post it up...I need to find it as I have so much, but I’m telling you now it’s absolutely correct. Totally.
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It’s in CAL’s book, and also on the Internet
Jeremy definitely refused permission for police to see his medical records. 100%.
The police must have got a court warrant to inspect them.
Jeremy was diagnosed with psychopathy by the prison psychiatrist when he was on remand. The psychiatrist wrote that in his opinion (and this was before the trial) Jeremy was guilty of the murders.
I have it somewhere and will post it up...I need to find it as I have so much, but I’m telling you now it’s absolutely correct. Totally.
There's no evidence JB refused officers access to his medi records.
During his police interviews he was asked to provide authority for the police to look through his bank account which he did.
Where in his police interview was he asked about his medi records?
Why do you keep insisting JB has been diagnosed with psychopathy when he hasn't?
Please do not post up fake information.
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There's no evidence JB refused officers access to his medi records.
During his police interviews he was asked to provide authority for the police to look through his bank account which he did.
Where in his police interview was he asked about his medi records?
Why do you keep insisting JB has been diagnosed with psychopathy when he hasn't?
Please do not post up fake information.
I'd have been surprised if police had asked for his medical records. I can't imagine that his psychopathy would have been of concern to them. However, I know, for certain, that the psychiatrist who assessed him when he was on remand claimed him to be "an inveterate liar, a fantasist, and undoubtedly, a psychopath". I also know OF another psychiatrist who has had similar to say of him, but that's not mine to go into. I can only suggest that the reason their findings haven't been released is because, like NUMEROUS others, anti and pro, who have met, or known Jeremy, they haven't ever been asked.
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I'd have been surprised if police had asked for his medical records. I can't imagine that his psychopathy would have been of concern to them. However, I know, for certain, that the psychiatrist who assessed him when he was on remand claimed him to be "an inveterate liar, a fantasist, and undoubtedly, a psychopath". I also know OF another psychiatrist who has had similar to say of him, but that's not mine to go into. I can only suggest that the reason their findings haven't been released is because, like NUMEROUS others, anti and pro, who have met, or known Jeremy, they haven't ever been asked.
Who are you quoting above?
Physcopathy does not wax and wane:
https://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
Clearly JB isn't and never has been a psychopath.
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I think you've interpreted incorrectly. The police can obtain with a warrant regardless of any other factors.
No, you have - confidentiality is part of the hypocritical oath. Doctors were not obligated to share medical info with the police.
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Who are you quoting above?
Physcopathy does not wax and wane:
https://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
Clearly JB isn't and never has been a psychopath.
He clearly is and you do yourself no favours by linking to that website.
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Who are you quoting above?
Physcopathy does not wax and wane:
https://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
Clearly JB isn't and never has been a psychopath.
So says the Jeremy Bamber Campaign For Freedom website. Well, they would, wouldn't they?
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So says the Jeremy Bamber Campaign For Freedom website. Well, they would, wouldn't they?
Yes, they would.
But, are they necessarily wrong?
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Yes, they would.
But, are they necessarily wrong?
I guess that depends on whether you believe Jeremy is innocent or guilty.
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I guess that depends on whether you believe Jeremy is innocent or guilty.
I suspect he is probably guilty, but I do think there is reasonable doubt, and I don't think it is out of the question that Sheila could have done it.
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I guess that depends on whether you believe Jeremy is innocent or guilty.
Or that he's a psychopath or not!
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Yes, they would.
But, are they necessarily wrong?
Examined by 27 psychologists - and yet comment from only 1?
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There's no evidence JB refused officers access to his medi records.
During his police interviews he was asked to provide authority for the police to look through his bank account which he did.
Where in his police interview was he asked about his medi records?
Why do you keep insisting JB has been diagnosed with psychopathy when he hasn't?
Please do not post up fake information.
I have indeed seen the reports that Jeremy Bamber was diagnosed a psychopath (I’ll find them when I have time)
And it’s most certainly true that he denied police access to his medical records. So stop accusing me of posting fake information — we’re not all like Jeremy Bamber, you know
What’s so damning for him too, is that his OWN defence psychiatrist diagnosed him as psychopath! And he also said Jeremy Bamber was definitely the murderer.
Here’s just a few snippets to appease you...
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I’m having difficulty uploading images, so please bear with me
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Who are you quoting above?
Physcopathy does not wax and wane:
https://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
Clearly JB isn't and never has been a psychopath.
No-one has said psychopathy waxes and wains
What are you on about?
The fact is, at least TWO psychiatrists have diagnosed Jeremy Bamber as being a psychopath. And even if he hadn’t been diagnosed as one, it would be evident to anyone that he shows all the traits of being one — especially as he KILLED five members of his family with such calm ease.
You, Holly, don’t want to believe facts that are staring you in the face.
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Who are you quoting above?
Physcopathy does not wax and wane:
https://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
Clearly JB isn't and never has been a psychopath.
That link is created by Jeremy Bamber’s team — it’s warped and distorted
Fact is, a psychologist cannot diagnose psychopathy: only a psychiatrist can do that — which two have
And these “27 psychologists” are simply prison psychologists who check up on all inmates annually. They’re not there to diagnose as they can’t: they’re just there to see how the inmate is getting on
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PLEASE could we refrain from making personal remarks about fellow posters. We're better than that.
Thank you.
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I was wondering why Nevill Bamber would ring his son and came up with the possibility that he didn't. Maybe it was someone else who made that call, someone who wanted Jeremy Bamber to go to White House Farm?
That would be an interesting point IF Nevill decided to phone Jeremy after Sheila had already shot him four times upstairs, and she was still going berserk with the gun
Nevill was a cool-headed intelligent man: he’d have called 999 as this was an EMERGENCY whereby police were needed including paramedics .
Nevill possibly didn’t know Jeremy’s phone number off by heart, but even if he did do, he’d have known that at between 3:00 & 3:30am Jeremy would have been fast asleep (probably in a deep sleep too), his head stuffed in the pillow, and the only phone in Goldhanger was downstairs. It’s quite hard to be woken up by a phone ringing from downstairs...certainly takes a while to rouse you out of a sleep if indeed you hear it at all...so this EMERGENCY was being treated very casually by Nevill *%87
You don’t like to see the facts...that it was Jeremy who dialled his number after killing them all, then he cut the phone off leaving his own landline clear.
Of course, we’ll never know if it was Crispy who phoned as Jeremy had him put down before he could make a confession 😳
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That link is created by Jeremy Bamber’s team — it’s warped and distorted
Fact is, a psychologist cannot diagnose psychopathy: only a psychiatrist can do that — which two have
And these “27 psychologists” are simply prison psychologists who check up on all inmates annually. They’re not there to diagnose as they can’t: they’re just there to see how the inmate is getting on
Psychologists are qualified to diagnose personality disorders including psychopathy.
Please provide cites/sources for the two psychiatrists you refer to who have diagnosed JB with psychopathy.
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Psychologists are qualified to diagnose personality disorders including psychopathy.
Please provide cites/sources for the two psychiatrists you refer to who have diagnosed JB with psychopathy.
He was classified as a psychopath before trial - the mantra is that this was done without the psychiatrist seeing Bamber - personally, I think that's horsesh*t.
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Psychologists are qualified to diagnose personality disorders including psychopathy.
Please provide cites/sources for the two psychiatrists you refer to who have diagnosed JB with psychopathy.
Psychopathy actually is a personality disorder, Holly
You’re correct in that some psychologists can diagnose psychopathy, such as consultant clinical psychologists with a PhD, but an inexperienced psychologist could possibly themselves be bamboozled by a clever psychopath.
The differences between a psychologist and a psychiatrist is that the latter is medically trained and able to prescribe medication, whereas psychologists aren’t able to prescribe medication. Secondly, as psychologists aren’t trained in chemistry and don’t always have a PhD, they’re unable to medically treat people with mental conditions such as bipolar, schizophrenia, psychosis etc. Psychologists are trained to help people with emotional disturbances by using alternative therapies, such as cognitive behaviour therapy etc. I’m in no way undermining clinical psychologists; their training is intense and likened to a science, and they can be invaluable in helping people with emotional disturbances; but they can’t treat the mental health conditions I’ve mentioned.
As for psychopathy, even psychiatrists can’t heal them as they aren’t suffering from a treatable mental health problem. Psychopathy is a disorder.
I shall find the links to where the consultant psychiatrists diagnosed Jeremy Bamber with having psychopathy and post them ASAP. I’m surprised you yourself haven’t seen the reports given how long you’ve followed the case – I came across them within days of researching the history....
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There's no evidence JB refused officers access to his medi records.
During his police interviews he was asked to provide authority for the police to look through his bank account which he did.
Where in his police interview was he asked about his medi records?
Why do you keep insisting JB has been diagnosed with psychopathy when he hasn't?
Please do not post up fake information.
Holly, please stop saying I post fake information — I do not! I resent that.
I’ve no NEED to lie, nor would I as I’d only look stupid.
There’s is indeed evidence that Jeremy Bamber refused police access to his medical records — I’ve seen it. And I don’t hallucinate. That’s another task you’ve given me...I need to hunt that down too. But I shall do, simply to appease you.
Every time I or anyone else posts something you don’t like, you accuse them of lying or ask them for proof. As I said in my previous post, as you’ve spent possibly almost 10 years researching JB it’s astonishing you’ve missed such startling observations!
The facts are, whether you like them or not (and I know you don’t) is that Jeremy Bamber definitely was diagnosed a psychopath (and psychopaths are untreatable, so he’s STILL a psychopath) and he DID refuse police access to his medical records.
Stop calling me a liar just because you want to believe Jeremy Bamber is something you’ve created in YOUR head.
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I'd have been surprised if police had asked for his medical records. I can't imagine that his psychopathy would have been of concern to them. However, I know, for certain, that the psychiatrist who assessed him when he was on remand claimed him to be "an inveterate liar, a fantasist, and undoubtedly, a psychopath". I also know OF another psychiatrist who has had similar to say of him, but that's not mine to go into. I can only suggest that the reason their findings haven't been released is because, like NUMEROUS others, anti and pro, who have met, or known Jeremy, they haven't ever been asked.
April, I agree with almost every word you say, but it’s absolutely true that Jeremy Bamber refused police and the prosecution access to his medical records.
Prosecutors would most certainly want access to anyone’s medical records if they’ve been charged with murdering five people. Even insurance companies/DVLA/businesses/DWP and a whole host of agencies can demand access to medical records, even if you’re the complainant. And if you refuse they can seek a court order if they do wish. Anyone who refuses access to their medical records will be seen as hiding something and it will go against them.
But you’re right, Jeremy Bamber was indeed diagnosed a psychopath — and one of those psychiatrists was working for him and the defence!
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Who are you quoting above?
Physcopathy does not wax and wane:
https://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
Clearly JB isn't and never has been a psychopath.
Where has April mentioned psychopathy waxes and wanes? She never said that, Holly
And why are you posting links that’s been written by Jeremy Bamber himself?!
That’s like asking someone to write themselves a reference...
JB MANIPULATES the facts. Cherrypicks. Exaggerates and hushes up in equal measure. Distorts.
I’m surprised you take that rubbish seriously!
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He clearly is and you do yourself no favours by linking to that website.
I’m too surprised Holly put that link up
It’s littered with distortions
JB doesn’t mention that the 27 psychologists who saw him just once a year, were in fact prison psychologists who see EVERY inmate and only do so to establish if there’s any change in their behaviour or cause for concern.
They don’t visit the inmates to make a diagnosis — it’s a simple annual check-up to make sure they’re OK. And it appears Jeremy has fitted in well to prison life.
When that report was done after his 27 years interment he was as he’s always been since being in prison: he’s knuckled down, got himself a little job, goes to the gym, watches his favourite TV programmes, plays with his Gameboy thing, writes letters, appears to enjoy the food, and is pleased as punch he can lock his cell when he goes to shower etc 👍 He comes across upbeat and has settled in really well — I’m sure he’s thrilled to think how proud Nevill would be of him now he’s toeing the line 😊
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I suspect he is probably guilty, but I do think there is reasonable doubt, and I don't think it is out of the question that Sheila could have done it.
The jury didn’t think there was doubt he did it
Nor did they believe for a second that Sheila could have or would have
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He was classified as a psychopath before trial - the mantra is that this was done without the psychiatrist seeing Bamber - personally, I think that's horsesh*t.
He wasn't classified as a psychopath before trial. According to Wilkes book the defence spoke with a psychologist? pshysiatrist? in chambers before trial who said something like psychopaths are able to deny and push things to the back of their minds. How does this equate to JB being formally diagnosed as a psychopath? How can an appropriately qualified person diagnose an individual with psychopathy he/she hasn't even spoken with let alone met face to face?
Prof Vincent Egan has confirmed JB is not a psychopath which means he never has been and never will be since psychopathy doesn't wax and wane.
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Psychopathy actually is a personality disorder, Holly
You’re correct in that some psychologists can diagnose psychopathy, such as consultant clinical psychologists with a PhD, but an inexperienced psychologist could possibly themselves be bamboozled by a clever psychopath.
The differences between a psychologist and a psychiatrist is that the latter is medically trained and able to prescribe medication, whereas psychologists aren’t able to prescribe medication. Secondly, as psychologists aren’t trained in chemistry and don’t always have a PhD, they’re unable to medically treat people with mental conditions such as bipolar, schizophrenia, psychosis etc. Psychologists are trained to help people with emotional disturbances by using alternative therapies, such as cognitive behaviour therapy etc. I’m in no way undermining clinical psychologists; their training is intense and likened to a science, and they can be invaluable in helping people with emotional disturbances; but they can’t treat the mental health conditions I’ve mentioned.
As for psychopathy, even psychiatrists can’t heal them as they aren’t suffering from a treatable mental health problem. Psychopathy is a disorder.
I shall find the links to where the consultant psychiatrists diagnosed Jeremy Bamber with having psychopathy and post them ASAP. I’m surprised you yourself haven’t seen the reports given how long you’ve followed the case – I came across them within days of researching the history....
I know what psychopathy is thank you.
Prof Vincent Egan is qualified to determine whether or not JB suffers psychopathy. He has determined he doesn't suffer such and since it doesn't wax and wane we know he never has been and never will be.
If you have come across reports claiming otherwise then please post up otherwise its your opinion not a fact.
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I’m too surprised Holly put that link up
It’s littered with distortions
JB doesn’t mention that the 27 psychologists who saw him just once a year, were in fact prison psychologists who see EVERY inmate and only do so to establish if there’s any change in their behaviour or cause for concern.
They don’t visit the inmates to make a diagnosis — it’s a simple annual check-up to make sure they’re OK. And it appears Jeremy has fitted in well to prison life.
When that report was done after his 27 years interment he was as he’s always been since being in prison: he’s knuckled down, got himself a little job, goes to the gym, watches his favourite TV programmes, plays with his Gameboy thing, writes letters, appears to enjoy the food, and is pleased as punch he can lock his cell when he goes to shower etc 👍 He comes across upbeat and has settled in really well — I’m sure he’s thrilled to think how proud Nevill would be of him now he’s toeing the line 😊
The link quotes Prof Egan confirming JB does not/has not suffered psychopathy.
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There is no actual diagnosis of psychopathy in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. The best diagnostic instrument to date is the Psychopathy checklist-Revised, is designed to evaluate the recognized characteristics of psychopathic personality and behavior:
glibness/superficial charm
grandiose sense of self worth
need for stimulation/prone to boredom
pathological lying
conning/manipulative
lack of remorse or guilt
shallow emotional response
callous/lack of empathy
parasitic lifestyle
poor behavioral controls
promiscuous sexual behavior
early behavioral problems
lack of realistic long term goals
impulsivity
irresponsibility
failure to accept responsibility for their own actions
many short term relationships
juvenile delinquency
revocation of conditional release
criminal versatility
The PCL-R assesses these traits with a clinical rating scale of 20 items. Each item is scored on a three-point scale of 0, 1 or 2, according to specific criteria that is obtained through file information and structured interviews. A value of 0 is assigned if the item does not apply, 1 if it applies somewhat, and 2 if it fully applies. Anyone who scores over 30 is diagnosed with psychopathy.
Hmm....I can see quite a few of Bamber’s traits on this list...
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Where has April mentioned psychopathy waxes and wanes? She never said that, Holly
And why are you posting links that’s been written by Jeremy Bamber himself?!
That’s like asking someone to write themselves a reference...
JB MANIPULATES the facts. Cherrypicks. Exaggerates and hushes up in equal measure. Distorts.
I’m surprised you take that rubbish seriously!
I never said APRIL mentioned psychopathy waxing and waning.
The article has relevant input from Prof Vincent Egan.
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I know what psychopathy is thank you.
Prof Vincent Egan is qualified to determine whether or not JB suffers psychopathy. He has determined he doesn't suffer such and since it doesn't wax and wane we know he never has been and never will be.
If you have come across reports claiming otherwise then please post up otherwise its your opinion not a fact.
According to this report the condition can improve with age
https://www.healthline.com/health/psychopath#vs-sociopath
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Interesting...
“Although no psychiatric or psychological organization has sanctioned a diagnosis titled "psychopathy", assessments of psychopathic characteristics are widely used in criminal justice settings in some nations and may have important consequences for individuals”.
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According to this report the condition can improve with age
https://www.healthline.com/health/psychopath#vs-sociopath
No need to rely on random articles and posters' interpretations when we have official word from Prof Vincent Egan.
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No need to rely on random articles and posters' interpretations when we have official word from Prof Vincent Egan.
Is he the last word on the disorder then? It seems to be quite a subjective area of mental health study. When did he come to his conclusion and how was the test carried out? Even the NHS page on the subject says it is a condition which can improve with age.
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He wasn't classified as a psychopath before trial. According to Wilkes book the defence spoke with a psychologist? pshysiatrist? in chambers before trial who said something like psychopaths are able to deny and push things to the back of their minds. How does this equate to JB being formally diagnosed as a psychopath? How can an appropriately qualified person diagnose an individual with psychopathy he/she hasn't even spoken with let alone met face to face?
Prof Vincent Egan has confirmed JB is not a psychopath which means he never has been and never will be since psychopathy doesn't wax and wane.
What don’t you understand about the fact Jeremy was diagnosed when on remand?
The prison psychiatrist had several meeting with Jeremy and reported that Jeremy was a pathological liar, a psychopath, and he believed Jeremy was as guilty as sin.
I’ll find it for you, as you refuse to believe anything unless you see it in black and white. You seem to think everyone’s a liar, like Jeremy Bamber
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Holly, if evidence came to light that satisifed you Jeremy murdered his family (unlikely I know, you have managed to bat away some pretty conclusive evidence quite easily already!) would you still believe Jeremy was not a psychopath cos Vince Egan said so?
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Holly, if evidence came to light that satisifed you Jeremy murdered his family (unlikely I know, you have managed to bat away some pretty conclusive evidence quite easily already!) would you still believe Jeremy was not a psychopath cos Vince Egan said so?
What conclusive evidence have I batted away?
The defence and prosecution agreed at trial there were only two possibilities: SC committed the murders and committed suicide in some altered state of mind or JB committed the murders with the probable motives of greed and hatred for his family. Only one of the possible perps was tested for psychopathy.
Why would I not rely on Prof Vincent Egan?
https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/medicine/people/vincent.egan
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He wasn't classified as a psychopath before trial. According to Wilkes book the defence spoke with a psychologist? pshysiatrist? in chambers before trial who said something like psychopaths are able to deny and push things to the back of their minds. How does this equate to JB being formally diagnosed as a psychopath? How can an appropriately qualified person diagnose an individual with psychopathy he/she hasn't even spoken with let alone met face to face?
Prof Vincent Egan has confirmed JB is not a psychopath which means he never has been and never will be since psychopathy doesn't wax and wane.
There you are, Holly
You said: “Psychopathy doesn’t wax and wane”
You’re actually correct: it doesn’t
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According to this report the condition can improve with age
https://www.healthline.com/health/psychopath#vs-sociopath
I’m not a psychiatrist, but have studied psychology and also have two relatives who are psychiatrists, so psychiatry is of interest to me, though I’m no expert at all
However, my understanding is that psychopathy doesn’t improve as its due to how the brain is wired up. Having said that, with age comes maturity, and with old age comes both physical and mental decline too. So older psychopaths most probably do lose their determination, strength, yearning for control etc...but they’ll always be a psychopath
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What don’t you understand about the fact Jeremy was diagnosed when on remand?
The prison psychiatrist had several meeting with Jeremy and reported that Jeremy was a pathological liar, a psychopath, and he believed Jeremy was as guilty as sin.
I’ll find it for you, as you refuse to believe anything unless you see it in black and white. You seem to think everyone’s a liar, like Jeremy Bamber
The above is your opinion unless you can find some evidence to support it.
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What conclusive evidence have I batted away?
The defence and prosecution agreed at trial there were only two possibilities: SC committed the murders and committed suicide in some altered state of mind or JB committed the murders with the probable motives of greed and hatred for his family. Only one of the possible perps was tested for psychopathy.
Why would I not rely on Prof Vincent Egan?
https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/medicine/people/vincent.egan
Are you serious? You have batted away ALL the evidence that the jury considered when coming to the majority verdict that he was guilty, the same evidence heard by two appeal courts who also concurred with the original verdict. Now answer my question please.
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Are you serious? You have batted away ALL the evidence that the jury considered when coming to the majority verdict that he was guilty, the same evidence heard by two appeal courts who also concurred with the original verdict. Now answer my question please.
What evidence have I batted away?
Which expert at trial said in his/her opinion JB was likely to be guilty or even alluded to such?
The most damning evidence came from Malcolm Fletcher. When asked to introduce himself to the court, unlike other experts, he did not refer to high level qualifications or membership of professional bodies but referred to working in the firearms Sept for 13 years and "a small amount of experience with an air rifle as a small boy".
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Are you serious? You have batted away ALL the evidence that the jury considered when coming to the majority verdict that he was guilty, the same evidence heard by two appeal courts who also concurred with the original verdict. Now answer my question please.
You don't know what weight jurors attributed to the various aspects of the prosecution case. It seems from the judges summing up and questions put to judge by jurors that they placed a lot of reliance on the blood/silencer.
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You don't know what weight jurors attributed to the various aspects of the prosecution case. It seems from the judges summing up and questions put to judge by jurors that they placed a lot of reliance on the blood/silencer.
That was just the part they weren't sure about because of the technical criteria.
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No need to rely on random articles and posters' interpretations when we have official word from Prof Vincent Egan.
I'm sure he'd be a quack is he thought Bamber was a psychopath.
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That was just the part they weren't sure about because of the technical criteria.
Yes it is technical and certainly was beyond the likes of Malcolm Fletcher who misled the court based on forensic testimony from Dr Vincent DiMao.
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Yes it is technical and certainly was beyond the likes of Malcolm Fletcher who misled the court based on forensic testimony from Dr Vincent DiMao.
You mean based on someone else's opinion that you do agree with?
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No need to rely on random articles and posters' interpretations when we have official word from Prof Vincent Egan.
Is Prof Vincent Egan the definitive word, or is his the only one you're willing to consider?
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What evidence have I batted away?
Which expert at trial said in his/her opinion JB was likely to be guilty or even alluded to such?
The most damning evidence came from Malcolm Fletcher. When asked to introduce himself to the court, unlike other experts, he did not refer to high level qualifications or membership of professional bodies but referred to working in the firearms Sept for 13 years and "a small amount of experience with an air rifle as a small boy".
Every single piece of evidence that Jeremy not Sheila committed the murders you have an off-pat explanation for, every single one. There isn’t one single piece of evidence of his guilt which you have conceded points to him being the killer as far as I’m aware. Am I right?
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Every single piece of evidence that Jeremy not Sheila committed the murders you have an off-pat explanation for, every single one. There isn’t one single piece of evidence of his guilt which you have conceded points to him being the killer as far as I’m aware. Am I right?
No because mystery tests will prove he's innocent.
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What conclusive evidence have I batted away?
The defence and prosecution agreed at trial there were only two possibilities: SC committed the murders and committed suicide in some altered state of mind or JB committed the murders with the probable motives of greed and hatred for his family. Only one of the possible perps was tested for psychopathy.
Why would I not rely on Prof Vincent Egan?
https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/medicine/people/vincent.egan
You rely too much on “experts”, Holly
They may not be all they seem
Professor Vincent Egan isn’t a qualified Psychiatrist: he’s a Psychologist. What’s more, he was paid by the defence to do a report on Jeremy Bamber and his findings, and what’s somewhat worrying, is that he’s known in his field to regularly make reports for the DEFENCE.
But more worrying that that is, one psychologist alone cannot make a diagnosis by doing a few random questionnaires over the course of an hour or so. The actual test he used is available online, including the twin test to try to decipher if the participant is lying. I suggest you do both those tests yourself (I’ll find the link for you) and I guarantee to you that you’ll easily know which would be the most apt answer if you wanted to appear to have no psychopathy traits. Interestingly, Jeremy scored on the very low side, which is unusual for even normal people as we all have — whether we like to believe it or not — some traits to our character where we would, say, lie to save our own skin. No-one is perfect, but according to Jeremy’s test results he almost scored perfection — and Vincent Egan wasn’t suspicious of that?
Vincent Egan’s test results aren’t worth the paper they’re written on.
To diagnose psychopathy a thorough evaluation is required, including numerous tests, numerous in-depth interviews, all taken over a relatively long period of time — and more than one psychiatrist with extensive qualifications is needed to determine a positive diagnosis.
These thorough evaluations by more than one psychiatrist are not to be confused with hurried questionnaires taken for legal purposes, such as the one Jeremy Bamber paid for, as they do not meet the criteria needed to establish psychopathy.
This is just another of JB’s attempts to try and make out he’s not a psychopath when not only did two psychiatrists say he definitely was one, Jeremy himself told Julie Mugford that he knew he wasn’t normal as he didn’t have normal emotions. And Colin said he saw Jeremy studying him after the murders, and realised he was watching him so he’d know how to behave in front of people, and how to show outward signs of grief.
That’s why his behaviour was so bizarre, one minute he was crouched over pretending to collapse with grief, then minutes later he was grinning and tucking into bacon sandwiches, saying he was “starving”, talking about buying a Porsche, and drinking Champagne like he was celebrating at a wedding. EVERYONE, police included, were stunned by his behaviour. I myself remember seeing him on the news at the funeral and immediately felt he was overacting — it was so easy to see.
You come across as an intelligent woman, Holly, so I can’t understand why you can’t see what everyone else can see...
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You rely too much on “experts”, Holly
They may not be all they seem
Professor Vincent Egan isn’t a qualified Psychiatrist: he’s a Psychologist. What’s more, he was paid by the defence to do a report on Jeremy Bamber and his findings, and what’s somewhat worrying, is that he’s known in his field to regularly make reports for the DEFENCE.
But more worrying that that is, one psychologist alone cannot make a diagnosis by doing a few random questionnaires over the course of an hour or so. The actual test he used is available online, including the twin test to try to decipher if the participant is lying. I suggest you do both those tests yourself (I’ll find the link for you) and I guarantee to you that you’ll easily know which would be the most apt answer if you wanted to appear to have no psychopathy traits. Interestingly, Jeremy scored on the very low side, which is unusual for even normal people as we all have — whether we like to believe it or not — some traits to our character where we would, say, lie to save our own skin. No-one is perfect, but according to Jeremy’s test results he almost scored perfection — and Vincent Egan wasn’t suspicious of that?
Vincent Egan’s test results aren’t worth the paper they’re written on.
To diagnose psychopathy a thorough evaluation is required, including numerous tests, numerous in-depth interviews, all taken over a relatively long period of time — and more than one psychiatrist with extensive qualifications is needed to determine a positive diagnosis.
These thorough evaluations by more than one psychiatrist are not to be confused with hurried questionnaires taken for legal purposes, such as the one Jeremy Bamber paid for, as they do not meet the criteria needed to establish psychopathy.
This is just another of JB’s attempts to try and make out he’s not a psychopath when not only did two psychiatrists say he definitely was one, Jeremy himself told Julie Mugford that he knew he wasn’t normal as he didn’t have normal emotions. And Colin said he saw Jeremy studying him after the murders, and realised he was watching him so he’d know how to behave in front of people, and how to show outward signs of grief.
That’s why his behaviour was so bizarre, one minute he was crouched over pretending to collapse with grief, then minutes later he was grinning and tucking into bacon sandwiches, saying he was “starving”, talking about buying a Porsche, and drinking Champagne like he was celebrating at a wedding. EVERYONE, police included, were stunned by his behaviour. I myself remember seeing him on the news at the funeral and immediately felt he was overacting — it was so easy to see.
You come across as an intelligent woman, Holly, so I can’t understand why you can’t see what everyone else can see...
So, has Jeremy Bamber ever had one of these thorough evaluations to find out whether or not he is a psychopath? If he hasn't, then we cannot know whether or not he is one.
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You rely too much on “experts”, Holly
They may not be all they seem
Professor Vincent Egan isn’t a qualified Psychiatrist: he’s a Psychologist. What’s more, he was paid by the defence to do a report on Jeremy Bamber and his findings, and what’s somewhat worrying, is that he’s known in his field to regularly make reports for the DEFENCE.
But more worrying that that is, one psychologist alone cannot make a diagnosis by doing a few random questionnaires over the course of an hour or so. The actual test he used is available online, including the twin test to try to decipher if the participant is lying. I suggest you do both those tests yourself (I’ll find the link for you) and I guarantee to you that you’ll easily know which would be the most apt answer if you wanted to appear to have no psychopathy traits. Interestingly, Jeremy scored on the very low side, which is unusual for even normal people as we all have — whether we like to believe it or not — some traits to our character where we would, say, lie to save our own skin. No-one is perfect, but according to Jeremy’s test results he almost scored perfection — and Vincent Egan wasn’t suspicious of that?
Vincent Egan’s test results aren’t worth the paper they’re written on.
To diagnose psychopathy a thorough evaluation is required, including numerous tests, numerous in-depth interviews, all taken over a relatively long period of time — and more than one psychiatrist with extensive qualifications is needed to determine a positive diagnosis.
These thorough evaluations by more than one psychiatrist are not to be confused with hurried questionnaires taken for legal purposes, such as the one Jeremy Bamber paid for, as they do not meet the criteria needed to establish psychopathy.
This is just another of JB’s attempts to try and make out he’s not a psychopath when not only did two psychiatrists say he definitely was one, Jeremy himself told Julie Mugford that he knew he wasn’t normal as he didn’t have normal emotions. And Colin said he saw Jeremy studying him after the murders, and realised he was watching him so he’d know how to behave in front of people, and how to show outward signs of grief.
That’s why his behaviour was so bizarre, one minute he was crouched over pretending to collapse with grief, then minutes later he was grinning and tucking into bacon sandwiches, saying he was “starving”, talking about buying a Porsche, and drinking Champagne like he was celebrating at a wedding. EVERYONE, police included, were stunned by his behaviour. I myself remember seeing him on the news at the funeral and immediately felt he was overacting — it was so easy to see.
You come across as an intelligent woman, Holly, so I can’t understand why you can’t see what everyone else can see...
You're right, Spy, Holly is a supremely intelligent woman. Bamber is lucky to have her on side, considering that his fan base mostly consists of fruitcakes, spiteful widows and strange, unfulfilled men who live their weird lives vicariously. But....your posts are rude and abrasive. You don't have to do this. Just state your case, you're obviously much better informed than any member on the "blue" forum. Say what you want to say, without being unkind, because this forum gives you the opportunity to speak freely.
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So, has Jeremy Bamber ever had one of these thorough evaluations to find out whether or not he is a psychopath? If he hasn't, then we cannot know whether or not he is one.
I don’t think he NEEDS a test — it’s obvious he’s a psychopath.
However, when he was on remand he was interviewed several times by the prison psychiatrist who determined Jeremy was a psychopath, a pathological liar, and he believed he killed his family.,
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So, has Jeremy Bamber ever had one of these thorough evaluations to find out whether or not he is a psychopath? If he hasn't, then we cannot know whether or not he is one.
Only those defending him care about the issue as they are the ones keen to show that he is not one, the fact that he murdered his family is enough to show what sort of a person he is, no need to slap any other label on him apart from cold blooded killer.
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You're right, Spy, Holly is a supremely intelligent woman. Bamber is lucky to have her on side, considering that his fan base mostly consists of fruitcakes, spiteful widows and strange, unfulfilled men who live their weird lives vicariously. But....your posts are rude and abrasive. You don't have to do this. Just state your case, you're obviously much better informed than any member on the "blue" forum. Say what you want to say, without being unkind, because this forum gives you the opportunity to speak freely.
Thank you, Pug
You’re right: I do fly off the handle and can be rude, which does me no favours at all. So in that respect I’m stupid.
There’s no excuse, really, but I have seen so, so many fruitcakes, loons and weirdos on various forums, that I’ve possibly become exasperated when they don’t seem to grasp the most simple of facts. I shouldn’t let it bother me, but due to it being such a tragic case, I feel repelled when I see people almost swooning over Bamber when he’s an evil, vile child murderer, and also killed his own mother, sistra and father. I just can’t understand it!
When he was young he was good-looking (though he didn’t have movie star looks IMO), and I think these women still see him as he was then, and that’s the reason they campaign for him. Had he looked like, say, Fred West, I guarantee they wouldn’t be baking cakes for him, and sending him fanny mail!
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Only those defending him care about the issue as they are the ones keen to show that he is not one, the fact that he murdered his family is enough to show what sort of a person he is, no need to slap any other label on him apart from cold blooded killer.
Actually, in a way, it’s even worse for him if he isn’t a psychopath
That means he can shoot bullets into two little boys heads as they lay sleeping, sucking their thumb, and despite feeling emotions is still capable of doing that simply for GREED.
That’s worse.
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I don’t think he NEEDS a test — it’s obvious he’s a psychopath.
However
, when he was on remand he was interviewed several times by the prison psychiatrist who determined Jeremy was a psychopath, a pathological liar, and he believed he killed his family.,
Of course he's a psychopath. An innocent man, banged up for all those years, would have crumbled. He would have been broken. But Bamber still tries to suck in the silly women, then turn against them when they don't deliver. He will always do this. Every few years, a daft group of old biddies discover a picture of Bamber when he was 24, fall in love with him, write to him and promise him money. Conveniently forgetting that he shot 2 little children while they slept in their grandparent's house.
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Of course he's a psychopath. An innocent man, banged up for all those years, would have crumbled. He would have been broken. But Bamber still tries to suck in the silly women, then turn against them when they don't deliver. He will always do this. Every few years, a daft group of old biddies discover a picture of Bamber when he was 24, fall in love with him, write to him and promise him money. Conveniently forgetting that he shot 2 little children while they slept in their grandparent's house.
That’s so true.
I’ve noticed how psychopaths seem to have the ability to cope in the most awful of conditions, and it doesn’t seem to bother them. They seem to work round it. Jeremy has done that. In a telephone interview he had which is on YouTube he sounds almost upbeat. He even mentions the pros of being in prison: he’s got TV, goes to the gym, enjoys snacks, writing letters...he discusses it like someone would talk about a 2 star hotel that isn’t “that bad” and you can find things to do there 🙂
He’s obviously become institutionalised and possibly would be scared to come out, as the world is so different now and I doubt he’d be able to cope. I also suspect time has kind of stood still for him, and in a weird way he’s stuck in a time-warp and still sees himself as that 24-year-old man who’d be able to take up where he left off...he’s as deluded as those strange women he attracts.
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You rely too much on “experts”, Holly
They may not be all they seem
Professor Vincent Egan isn’t a qualified Psychiatrist: he’s a Psychologist. What’s more, he was paid by the defence to do a report on Jeremy Bamber and his findings, and what’s somewhat worrying, is that he’s known in his field to regularly make reports for the DEFENCE.
But more worrying that that is, one psychologist alone cannot make a diagnosis by doing a few random questionnaires over the course of an hour or so. The actual test he used is available online, including the twin test to try to decipher if the participant is lying. I suggest you do both those tests yourself (I’ll find the link for you) and I guarantee to you that you’ll easily know which would be the most apt answer if you wanted to appear to have no psychopathy traits. Interestingly, Jeremy scored on the very low side, which is unusual for even normal people as we all have — whether we like to believe it or not — some traits to our character where we would, say, lie to save our own skin. No-one is perfect, but according to Jeremy’s test results he almost scored perfection — and Vincent Egan wasn’t suspicious of that?
Vincent Egan’s test results aren’t worth the paper they’re written on.
To diagnose psychopathy a thorough evaluation is required, including numerous tests, numerous in-depth interviews, all taken over a relatively long period of time — and more than one psychiatrist with extensive qualifications is needed to determine a positive diagnosis.
These thorough evaluations by more than one psychiatrist are not to be confused with hurried questionnaires taken for legal purposes, such as the one Jeremy Bamber paid for, as they do not meet the criteria needed to establish psychopathy.
This is just another of JB’s attempts to try and make out he’s not a psychopath when not only did two psychiatrists say he definitely was one, Jeremy himself told Julie Mugford that he knew he wasn’t normal as he didn’t have normal emotions. And Colin said he saw Jeremy studying him after the murders, and realised he was watching him so he’d know how to behave in front of people, and how to show outward signs of grief.
That’s why his behaviour was so bizarre, one minute he was crouched over pretending to collapse with grief, then minutes later he was grinning and tucking into bacon sandwiches, saying he was “starving”, talking about buying a Porsche, and drinking Champagne like he was celebrating at a wedding. EVERYONE, police included, were stunned by his behaviour. I myself remember seeing him on the news at the funeral and immediately felt he was overacting — it was so easy to see.
You come across as an intelligent woman, Holly, so I can’t understand why you can’t see what everyone else can see...
Spy, when you hold off on the emotion (and the rudeness which tends to emanate from it!!!) your posts make for interesting -and sometimes, excellent- reading.
I entirely concur with your evaluation re psychologists/psychiatrists. A psychologist has no more claim to being a psychiatrist than a lowly counselor can claim to be a psychologist, but they all have footholds in each other's camps, and they each have their place in the vast area of mental health.
Of interest is your comment about Holly's (over?) reliance on experts. Naturally, only those who support Jeremy's innocence. Other experts exist. My late partner was an expert witness. No one who used his services, ever lost their case. As his son said, of him, at his memorial celebration, "He was always right"............. Was he?
I'm fascinated by why such store is set by Jeremy's psychopathy -or otherwise!!- and and why Holly, for whom I have the greatest respect, refuses to contemplate any opinion which doesn't have a name or reference, and any verdict than Prof Egan's. It may simply be a way of devaluing/eradicating everything other than that which is in Jeremy's favour? I can fully see why it would be of importance, pre-trial, to assess his mental stability, but post trial, other than the routine assessments, which all prisoners are given, why would psychopathy matter, one way or the other, and why would it be necessary to go to the added expense of testing for it?
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There's no evidence JB has been diagnosed with psychopathy but this as a stand alone would not mean he wasn't responsible. Likewise even if he was diagnosed with psychopathy this wouldn't mean as a stand alone that he was responsible.
At trial it was agreed by defence and prosecution that the perp was one of two: JB or SC. Only one was put on trial and only one was tested for psychopathy.
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There's no evidence JB has been diagnosed with psychopathy but this as a stand alone would not mean he wasn't responsible. Likewise even if he was diagnosed with psychopathy this wouldn't mean as a stand alone that he was responsible.
At trial it was agreed by defence and prosecution that the perp was one of two: JB or SC. Only one was put on trial and only one was tested for psychopathy.
But this is just semantics, Holly. You've made it a rule that nothing is acceptable -it hasn't happened?- unless a source or link can be provided, and here, you appear to be covering yourself by suggesting that in the remote(?) possibility he HAS been diagnosed as being a psychopath, of itself, it wouldn't make him a murderer.
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But this is just semantics, Holly. You've made it a rule that nothing is acceptable -it hasn't happened?- unless a source or link can be provided, and here, you appear to be covering yourself by suggesting that in the remote(?) possibility he HAS been diagnosed as being a psychopath, of itself, it wouldn't make him a murderer.
Apologies if I'm not making myself clear but there's no evidence JB has been diagnosed with psychopathy. The only cite/source I can provide is from Prof Vincent Egan which makes clear JB does not meet the criteria for psychopathy.
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You rely too much on “experts”, Holly
They may not be all they seem
Professor Vincent Egan isn’t a qualified Psychiatrist: he’s a Psychologist. What’s more, he was paid by the defence to do a report on Jeremy Bamber and his findings, and what’s somewhat worrying, is that he’s known in his field to regularly make reports for the DEFENCE.
But more worrying that that is, one psychologist alone cannot make a diagnosis by doing a few random questionnaires over the course of an hour or so. The actual test he used is available online, including the twin test to try to decipher if the participant is lying. I suggest you do both those tests yourself (I’ll find the link for you) and I guarantee to you that you’ll easily know which would be the most apt answer if you wanted to appear to have no psychopathy traits. Interestingly, Jeremy scored on the very low side, which is unusual for even normal people as we all have — whether we like to believe it or not — some traits to our character where we would, say, lie to save our own skin. No-one is perfect, but according to Jeremy’s test results he almost scored perfection — and Vincent Egan wasn’t suspicious of that?
Vincent Egan’s test results aren’t worth the paper they’re written on.
To diagnose psychopathy a thorough evaluation is required, including numerous tests, numerous in-depth interviews, all taken over a relatively long period of time — and more than one psychiatrist with extensive qualifications is needed to determine a positive diagnosis.
These thorough evaluations by more than one psychiatrist are not to be confused with hurried questionnaires taken for legal purposes, such as the one Jeremy Bamber paid for, as they do not meet the criteria needed to establish psychopathy.
This is just another of JB’s attempts to try and make out he’s not a psychopath when not only did two psychiatrists say he definitely was one, Jeremy himself told Julie Mugford that he knew he wasn’t normal as he didn’t have normal emotions. And Colin said he saw Jeremy studying him after the murders, and realised he was watching him so he’d know how to behave in front of people, and how to show outward signs of grief.
That’s why his behaviour was so bizarre, one minute he was crouched over pretending to collapse with grief, then minutes later he was grinning and tucking into bacon sandwiches, saying he was “starving”, talking about buying a Porsche, and drinking Champagne like he was celebrating at a wedding. EVERYONE, police included, were stunned by his behaviour. I myself remember seeing him on the news at the funeral and immediately felt he was overacting — it was so easy to see.
You come across as an intelligent woman, Holly, so I can’t understand why you can’t see what everyone else can see...
Who would you suggest I rely on if not experts?
Prof Vincent Egan wasn't instructed by the defence. He assessed JB in prison post trial so I assume was employed by the Home Office.
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There's no evidence JB has been diagnosed with psychopathy but this as a stand alone would not mean he wasn't responsible. Likewise even if he was diagnosed with psychopathy this wouldn't mean as a stand alone that he was responsible.
At trial it was agreed by defence and prosecution that the perp was one of two: JB or SC. Only one was put on trial and only one was tested for psychopathy.
LOL. “Just because he’s a psychopath doesn’t mean he killed his family...”. I mean, how many “just becauses” is one banged-up bloke allowed?
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LOL. “Just because he’s a psychopath doesn’t mean he killed his family...”. I mean, how many “just becauses” is one banged-up bloke allowed?
Who are you quoting?
Do you have any evidence that JB has ever been diagnosed with psychopathy or any other personality disorder or mental illness?
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Apologies if I'm not making myself clear but there's no evidence JB has been diagnosed with psychopathy. The only cite/source I can provide is from Prof Vincent Egan which makes clear JB does not meet the criteria for psychopathy.
And without a shadow of doubt, there'd be, there are, others, equally eminent, who'd say -probably have already said- to the contrary, however, I'm guessing that you'd probably dismiss them.
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Who are you quoting?
Do you have any evidence that JB has ever been diagnosed with psychopathy or any other personality disorder or mental illness?
It’s a reference to your post - you used the phrase “even if”, I have made reference to the many “just becauses” his supporters are able to stomach, and this would appear to br another one. You are saying that in the event of him being diagnosed a psychopath, your comeback would be “just because....etc, etc”.
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It’s a reference to your post - you used the phrase “even if”, I have made reference to the many “just becauses” his supporters are able to stomach, and this would appear to br another one. You are saying that in the event of him being diagnosed a psychopath, your comeback would be “just because....etc, etc”.
I am saying that a diagnosis of psychopathy or absense of proves nothing.
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I am saying that a diagnosis of psychopathy or absense of proves nothing.
If it was ever proven To your satisfaction that he did commit the crimes would you (and Vince Egan) still maintain he wasn’t a psychopath?
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If it was ever proven To your satisfaction that he did commit the crimes would you (and Vince Egan) still maintain he wasn’t a psychopath?
It isn't necessary to be a psychopath to carry out acts that cause harm to others.
Was Hitler diagnosed with psychopathy? Dr Shipman? Greedy and reckless bankers who brought the global economy to the brink of collapse in 2010? Slave owners? Those who rigged VW exhaust emissions? Clergy who sexually abused children? Jimmy Savile?
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It isn't necessary to be a psychopath to carry out acts that cause harm to others.
Was Hitler diagnosed with psychopathy? Dr Shipman? Greedy and reckless bankers who brought the global economy to the brink of collapse in 2010? Slave owners? Those who rigged VW exhaust emissions? Clergy who sexually abused children? Jimmy Savile?
Holly, we both know that, as with most pd's, there's a psychopathic spectrum. I'd say anyone capable of acts of violence, without turning a hair and showing no remorse, falls somewhere on it.
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There's no evidence JB has been diagnosed with psychopathy but this as a stand alone would not mean he wasn't responsible. Likewise even if he was diagnosed with psychopathy this wouldn't mean as a stand alone that he was responsible.
At trial it was agreed by defence and prosecution that the perp was one of two: JB or SC. Only one was put on trial and only one was tested for psychopathy.
And THAT test at pre-trial concluded Jeremy Bamber was a psychopath. It was carried out by a consultant psychiatrist who spent several months interviewing Jeremy. Quite why you’re insisting he wasn’t diagnosed one when I do indeed have the link (which I shall find)
But as you rightly say, it’s irrelevant what laymen wish to believe: Jeremy was convicted of murder due to overwhelming evidence, and wasn’t tried for being a psychopath...
So, psychopath or not, he’s still guilty of the murders.
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Holly, we both know that, as with most pd's, there's a psychopathic spectrum. I'd say anyone capable of acts of violence, without turning a hair and showing no remorse, falls somewhere on it.
Absolutely, April
And as Holly rightly states, psychopathy doesn’t wax and wane, hence why he still feels no remorse.
Once a psychopath, always a psychopath.
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Absolutely, April
And as Holly rightly states, psychopathy doesn’t wax and wane, hence why he still feels no remorse.
Once a psychopath, always a psychopath.
I think it may be possible that, with advancing years perhaps removing the chance of demonstrating it, psychopathy may lessen. I don't, however, believe it falls off the spectrum.
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Spy, when you hold off on the emotion (and the rudeness which tends to emanate from it!!!) your posts make for interesting -and sometimes, excellent- reading.
I entirely concur with your evaluation re psychologists/psychiatrists. A psychologist has no more claim to being a psychiatrist than a lowly counselor can claim to be a psychologist, but they all have footholds in each other's camps, and they each have their place in the vast area of mental health.
Of interest is your comment about Holly's (over?) reliance on experts. Naturally, only those who support Jeremy's innocence. Other experts exist. My late partner was an expert witness. No one who used his services, ever lost their case. As his son said, of him, at his memorial celebration, "He was always right"............. Was he?
I'm fascinated by why such store is set by Jeremy's psychopathy -or otherwise!!- and and why Holly, for whom I have the greatest respect, refuses to contemplate any opinion which doesn't have a name or reference, and any verdict than Prof Egan's. It may simply be a way of devaluing/eradicating everything other than that which is in Jeremy's favour? I can fully see why it would be of importance, pre-trial, to assess his mental stability, but post trial, other than the routine assessments, which all prisoners are given, why would psychopathy matter, one way or the other, and why would it be necessary to go to the added expense of testing for it?
Jeremy Bamber has all the time in the world to hunt down professionals who will happily do a glowing report for the right amount of money.
The reason JB is clutching at this ridiculous straw, trying to make out he isn’t a psychopath, is that he wrongly thinks people will believe he didn’t murder his family. But people aren’t fools...they’d can see what he’s trying to do.
I don’t even like hypothesising that he could be innocent, because it’s perfectly clear to 99.9% of people that the evidence against him is absolutely overwhelming. But if he was innocent, he wouldn’t be paying a psychologist to test him for psychopathy as that doesn’t mean he’s innocent even if he wasn’t one. He’s just trying to manipulate people, and he’s highlighting how he has nothing whatsoever to even suggest he isn’t guilty.
A truly innocent man would be veering between crushing heartbreak, anger, and total despair. They wouldn’t be combing through half a million documents (if that number is correct...) trying to find a typo, or insignificant error to try and use as a technicality to get released.
It’s also telling why he hasn’t begged to be given the truth drug. My understanding is, that whilst they’re not admissible in the UK court of law, they’re far more accurate than polygraph tests.
Maybe Holly can answer that one...
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I think it may be possible that, with advancing years perhaps removing the chance of demonstrating it, psychopathy may lessen. I don't, however, believe it falls off the spectrum.
Yes, I believe they mellow, as all people do with age
But they simply become mature psychopaths with the same lack of empathy and emotions. They tend not to murder later in life due to their physical, mental and emotional decline...
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Who would you suggest I rely on if not experts?
Prof Vincent Egan wasn't instructed by the defence. He assessed JB in prison post trial so I assume was employed by the Home Office.
The Psychologist, Vincent Egan was instructed by Jeremy Bamber’s appeal team.
His findings made not a jot of difference, anyway...the appeal court threw the case out in under an hour.
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Yes, I believe they mellow, as all people do with age
But they simply become mature psychopaths with the same lack of empathy and emotions. They tend not to murder later in life due to their physical, mental and emotional decline...
But nonetheless, remain within the spectrum.
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Spy, when you hold off on the emotion (and the rudeness which tends to emanate from it!!!) your posts make for interesting -and sometimes, excellent- reading.
I entirely concur with your evaluation re psychologists/psychiatrists. A psychologist has no more claim to being a psychiatrist than a lowly counselor can claim to be a psychologist, but they all have footholds in each other's camps, and they each have their place in the vast area of mental health.
Of interest is your comment about Holly's (over?) reliance on experts. Naturally, only those who support Jeremy's innocence. Other experts exist. My late partner was an expert witness. No one who used his services, ever lost their case. As his son said, of him, at his memorial celebration, "He was always right"............. Was he?
I'm fascinated by why such store is set by Jeremy's psychopathy -or otherwise!!- and and why Holly, for whom I have the greatest respect, refuses to contemplate any opinion which doesn't have a name or reference, and any verdict than Prof Egan's. It may simply be a way of devaluing/eradicating everything other than that which is in Jeremy's favour? I can fully see why it would be of importance, pre-trial, to assess his mental stability, but post trial, other than the routine assessments, which all prisoners are given, why would psychopathy matter, one way or the other, and why would it be necessary to go to the added expense of testing for it?
That’s very interesting, April, that your late partner who was an expert witness, “was always right”. That’s precisely why people such as your late partner are in high demand from counsel for the defence: their reports are dynamite.
Jeremy Bamber has tried to get the very best to represent him, in fact, he demanded from the start that he be represented by the top QC (Napier) who’d recently got Jeremy Thorpe acquitted. Legal Aid at first refused him that, due to the high costs of employing him, but JB somehow managed to get Napier’s team to represent him — and that alone suggests he knew he was in a very tight corner. Had he been innocent he wouldn’t have needed the creme de la creme. In the event, despite having such a highly respected legal team representing him, he still got found guilty...which speaks volumes.
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That’s very interesting, April, that your late partner who was an expert witness, “was always right”. That’s precisely why people such as your late partner are in high demand from counsel for the defence: their reports are dynamite.
Jeremy Bamber has tried to get the very best to represent him, in fact, he demanded from the start that he be represented by the top QC (Napier) who’d recently got Jeremy Thorpe acquitted. Legal Aid at first refused him that, due to the high costs of employing him, but JB somehow managed to get Napier’s team to represent him — and that alone suggests he knew he was in a very tight corner. Had he been innocent he wouldn’t have needed the creme de la creme. In the event, despite having such a highly respected legal team representing him, he still got found guilty...which speaks volumes.
It also indicates his self belief and self importance, don't you think?
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It isn't necessary to be a psychopath to carry out acts that cause harm to others.
Was Hitler diagnosed with psychopathy? Dr Shipman? Greedy and reckless bankers who brought the global economy to the brink of collapse in 2010? Slave owners? Those who rigged VW exhaust emissions? Clergy who sexually abused children? Jimmy Savile?
Yet Bamber is proven to have many of the other traits on the checklist of psychopathic traits, never mind the murders.
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There's no evidence JB has been diagnosed with psychopathy but this as a stand alone would not mean he wasn't responsible. Likewise even if he was diagnosed with psychopathy this wouldn't mean as a stand alone that he was responsible.
At trial it was agreed by defence and prosecution that the perp was one of two: JB or SC. Only one was put on trial and only one was tested for psychopathy.
Sheila wasn't a psychopath - she displayed NONE of the characteristics. This is beneath you Holly.
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I think it may be possible that, with advancing years perhaps removing the chance of demonstrating it, psychopathy may lessen. I don't, however, believe it falls off the spectrum.
I don't think kit lessens, the ability to display it may change with age but I doubt anyone who lacks empathy could grow some.
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Yet Bamber is proven to have many of the other traits on the checklist of psychopathic traits, never mind the murders.
I would say 'most'.
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I don't think kit lessens, the ability to display it may change with age but I doubt anyone who lacks empathy could grow some.
Good point. After so many years -a lifetime?- of living without it, it would come as on hell of a shock to find they had it!!!
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Sheila wasn't a psychopath - she displayed NONE of the characteristics. This is beneath you Holly.
I can't see where Holly is suggesting that Sheila was a psychopath.
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I can't see where Holly is suggesting that Sheila was a psychopath.
At trial it was agreed by defence and prosecution that the perp was one of two: JB or SC. Only one was put on trial and only one was tested for psychopathy.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11235.msg581093#msg581093
The evidence did not indicate 'Murder Suicide' it very clearly indicated Murder ... in my opinion that sentence tells one quite a lot.
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It also indicates his self belief and self importance, don't you think?
Oh, absolutely, April!
Jeremy displays ALL the signs of psychopathy, just some of which are:
Self-importance
Grandiosity
Arrogance
The fact he felt entitled to the very best QC, despite taxpayers having to pay for it, shows not only his disregard for the law and its people, but his sense of self-importance and sheer arrogance.
That’s typical of a psychopath.
He doesn’t care who he uses or treads on, just as long as he got the best. He feels entitled. In the same way he explained his reasoning for murdering his family to Julie — he said he was doing them a favour.
And 35 years later he’s still behaving as though HE’S been done wrong....
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I can't see where Holly is suggesting that Sheila was a psychopath.
There's no evidence JB has been diagnosed with psychopathy but this as a stand alone would not mean he wasn't responsible. Likewise even if he was diagnosed with psychopathy this wouldn't mean as a stand alone that he was responsible.
At trial it was agreed by defence and prosecution that the perp was one of two: JB or SC. Only one was put on trial and only one was tested for psychopathy.
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Oh, absolutely, April!
Jeremy displays ALL the signs of psychopathy, just some of which are:
Self-importance
Grandiosity
Arrogance
The fact he felt entitled to the very best QC, despite taxpayers having to pay for it, shows not only his disregard for the law and its people, but his sense of self-importance and sheer arrogance.
That’s typical of a psychopath.
He doesn’t care who he uses or treads on, just as long as he got the best. He feels entitled. In the same way he explained his reasoning for murdering his family to Julie — he said he was doing them a favour.
And 35 years later he’s still behaving as though HE’S been done wrong....
Also, reckless behaviour, immoral actions, cruelty to animals, also hallmarks of psychopathy.