UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: carlymichelle on April 05, 2013, 02:25:55 PM
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this is for the pros mainly why do you condone the mcanns leaving 3 children alone?? no matter what did happen to maddie most countries in the world considrr that child neglect at the very least .And here and in many countries they would have been charged and put in jail for leaving them home alone. Here in australia you cannot legally leave a child under 12 home alone therefore what the mcanns did would be classed as a violation of the law here
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The law in Australia
There’s no actual law that states at what age children can or can’t be left alone. But the law is clear about the responsibility of parents to look after their children, and parents are expected to make ‘reasonable’ decisions about their children’s safety.
While different societies and cultures have different customs, in Australia there’s a legal obligation for parents to make sure their children are properly looked after. They’re expected to provide their children with food, clothing, a place to live, safety and supervision.
Parents can be charged with an offence if children are left in a dangerous situation and aren’t fed, clothed or provided with accommodation.
The police or Children, Youth and Family Services can remove children from situations where their safety is in serious danger and where there’s no guardian present.
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Neither the Portuguese nor the English legal system considered that the crime of neglect had occurred.
DO you not remember Debunker's Challenge-
ANy case in the UK where children were left alone in a domestic setting with claimed checks every 20-30 minutes, in the absence of any previous child care or criminal problems, where a criminal charge was successful in court.
NO one has found such a case in si,x years.
Pretty good guide that though what the McCanns did was very doubtful (IMHO) it was not criminal.
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this is for the pros mainly why do you condone the mcanns leaving 3 children alone?? no matter what did happen to maddie most countries in the world considrr that child neglect at the very least .And here and in many countries they would have been charged and put in jail for leaving them home alone. Here in australia you cannot legally leave a child under 12 home alone therefore what the mcanns did would be classed as a violation of the law here
It all depends on your interpretation of the words 'leave alone' carly.
Is being 60 yds away leaving them alone when they were checked every 20 mins?
Is leaving a child alone in another bedroom in a large house acceptable?
At the end of the day it is for the parent to make that judgement.
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well in the mcann case they were not with the children they were in a tapas bar approx 5 or 10 minutes walk was it not?? anything could happen to a 3 year old and 2 year olds in that little time and clearly no matter what anyones view in this case something did indeed happen to maddie......... so i do find that neglectful especally since she was heard crying and they still went out
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well in the mcann case they were not with the children they were in a tapas bar approx 5 or 10 minutes walk was it not?? anything could happen to a 3 year old and 2 year olds in that little time and clearly no matter what anyones view in this case something did indeed happen to maddie......... so i do find that neglectful especally since she was heard crying and they still went out
I repeat Portugal and English legal systems found nothing to prosecute. No similar case has ever resulted in a guilty finding.
Ill-advised,yes, criminal neglect, no.
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well in the mcann case they were not with the children they were in a tapas bar approx 5 or 10 minutes walk was it not?? anything could happen to a 3 year old and 2 year olds in that little time and clearly no matter what anyones view in this case something did indeed happen to maddie......... so i do find that neglectful especally since she was heard crying and they still went out
Agree carly but it is not a criminal offence. Many people have done it and continue to do so when on holiday.
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well in the mcann case they were not with the children they were in a tapas bar approx 5 or 10 minutes walk was it not?? anything could happen to a 3 year old and 2 year olds in that little time and clearly no matter what anyones view in this case something did indeed happen to maddie......... so i do find that neglectful especally since she was heard crying and they still went out
Actually it was not approximately 5 or ten minutes walk as you posit.
There is actually a video of Martin Brunt walking from a table at the Tapas to the Apartment. It takes him 80 paces and he does it in 48 seconds.
It really behoves those wishing to comment on the case to get the facts right before they make pronouncements.
You appear to be another person who places themself in the position of being more knowledgeable than those directly involved with the case. Whilst the Attorney General was precise in his complete dismissal of charges against the McCanns for the conduct you deplore you still denigrate them for it. Interesting.
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well in the mcann case they were not with the children they were in a tapas bar approx 5 or 10 minutes walk was it not??
It's quite amazing (or perhaps I shouldn't be amazed) that after 6 years people like you are STILL getting fundamental details like this wrong. It takes about 10 minutes for the average person to walk half a mile, that's 800 metres. The distance from the Tapas Bar to the Apartment was 50-ish metres as the crow flies and around 80-ish metres to walk it. You really need to brush up on your McCannology mate.
It would appear the distance to The Tapas Bar is another Myth that has just been dispelled. Maybethis wants adding to The Myths thread. Perhaps we should thank our little Antipodean friend for bringing it to our attention
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well in the mcann case they were not with the children they were in a tapas bar approx 5 or 10 minutes walk was it not??
It's quite amazing (or perhaps I shouldn't be amazed) that after 6 years people like you are STILL getting fundamental details like this wrong. It takes about 10 minutes for the average person to walk half a mile, that's 800 metres. The distance from the Tapas Bar to the Apartment was 50-ish metres as the crow flies and around 80-ish metres to walk it. You really need to brush up on your McCannology mate.
It would appear the distance to The Tapas Bar is another Myth that has just been dispelled. Maybethis wants adding to The Myths thread. Perhaps we should thank our little Antipodean friend for bringing it to our attention
Quite agree.
At a fast walking pace, a quick walk.
However, you do not know how fast these people were walking, whether distracted and/or the influence of alcohol, and of course we all know what alcohol does to human reflexes and reaction times.
That also applies to the so called 'regular' checks, which had no independent verification, and were also subject to the distracting effects of Ethanol consumption.
Try not to overlook the obvious.
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Quite agree.
At a fast walking pace, a quick walk.
However, you do not know how fast these people were walking, whether distracted and/or the influence of alcohol, and of course we all know what alcohol does to human reflexes and reaction times.
That also applies to the so called 'regular' checks, which had no independent verification, and were also subject to the distracting effects of Ethanol consumption.
Try not to overlook the obvious.
How much alcohol did they drink before 10pm?
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Quite agree.
At a fast walking pace, a quick walk.
However, you do not know how fast these people were walking, whether distracted and/or the influence of alcohol, and of course we all know what alcohol does to human reflexes and reaction times.
That also applies to the so called 'regular' checks, which had no independent verification, and were also subject to the distracting effects of Ethanol consumption.
Try not to overlook the obvious.
How much alcohol did they drink before 10pm?
Do want that on each night ?
I suggest you read the witness statements from the waiters on that ?
From recollection one night it amounted to 10 bottles in the group,l with some estimates including the consumption of aperitifs , would raise it to a higher threshold.
As to the effects of Ethanol consumption on human metabolisms and reaction times, etc., well documented.
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Do want that on each night ?
I suggest you read the witness statements from the waiters on that ?
From recollection one night it amounted to 10 bottles in the group,l with some estimates including the consumption of aperitifs , would raise it to a higher threshold.
As to the effects of Ethanol consumption on human metabolisms and reaction times, etc., well documented.
Perhaps you could provide a cite and a link for that information. Otherwise we shall have to think that you are just making factoids up.
You are suggesting they were drunk; prove it!
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Perhaps you could provide a cite and a link for that information. Otherwise we shall have to think that you are just making factoids up.
You are suggesting they were drunk; prove it!
I didn't say they were drunk, that's the assumption you made.
I said distracting effects of alcohol and don't pretend that doesn't happen.
As to the waiters accounts, get off your rear end and search yourself.
If you want a servant pay for one.
P.S. Nothing I've seen so far in your writing shows a neutral standpoint.
YUou know the Mccanns and party were drinking.
The relative volumes of alcohol required to impair normal functioning varies from person to person.
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well in the mcann case they were not with the children they were in a tapas bar approx 5 or 10 minutes walk was it not??
It's quite amazing (or perhaps I shouldn't be amazed) that after 6 years people like you are STILL getting fundamental details like this wrong. It takes about 10 minutes for the average person to walk half a mile, that's 800 metres. The distance from the Tapas Bar to the Apartment was 50-ish metres as the crow flies and around 80-ish metres to walk it. You really need to brush up on your McCannology mate.
It would appear the distance to The Tapas Bar is another Myth that has just been dispelled. Maybethis wants adding to The Myths thread. Perhaps we should thank our little Antipodean friend for bringing it to our attention
Quite agree.
At a fast walking pace, a quick walk.
However, you do not know how fast these people were walking, whether distracted and/or the influence of alcohol, and of course we all know what alcohol does to human reflexes and reaction times.
That also applies to the so called 'regular' checks, which had no independent verification, and were also subject to the distracting effects of Ethanol consumption.
Try not to overlook the obvious.
How long do you think it takes to walk 80 metres even after a bottle of wine ? I could probably crawl that distance on my hands and knees in less than 3 minutes
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How long do you think it takes to walk 80 metres even after a bottle of wine ? I could probably crawl that distance on my hands and knees in less than 3 minutes
Don't be stupid.
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Quite agree.
At a fast walking pace, a quick walk.
However, you do not know how fast these people were walking, whether distracted and/or the influence of alcohol, and of course we all know what alcohol does to human reflexes and reaction times.
That also applies to the so called 'regular' checks, which had no independent verification, and were also subject to the distracting effects of Ethanol consumption.
Try not to overlook the obvious.
Just how drunk would you have to be to take 10 minutes to walk 80-ish metres? Bearing in mind that it is humanly possible to run 100 metres in less than 10 seconds? A minute to go 8 metres would probably mean you were mostly walking backwards.
So people drinking walk at normal pace and behave normally. Pull the other one.
Effectively all you are doing is making ridiculous excuses for the Mccanns.
They were not in the 'back garden', they were in a bar drinking.
They left their children selfishly, so they could go out to wine and dine.
The bottom line remains, the McCanns through blatant and arrogant stupidity, placed their children in danger.
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I'm only 19 yoa and don't have children but I have looked after my younger siblings and other children.
I most definitely would not leave three children aged 3 and under unsupervised, period.
Reasons for not:
1. Wake up and get distressed eg bad dream, unfamiliar surroundings, no reassuring responsible person present.
2. Madeleine wakes and comes to harm eg sharp instrument, runs bath, puts wet fingers in socket, list is endless.
3. Madeleine wakes and twins wake as 1 and 2 above also.
4. Fire breaks out.
I have no idea whether or not the parents are indirectly responsible or in some way involved. I say indirectly as I am 100% certain that they would never have intentionally harmed any of their children in any shape or form.
Leaving them unsupervised though is in my opinion the height of irresponsibility. Perhaps made worse by the fact that they are professionals.
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I'm only 19 yoa and don't have children but I have looked after my younger siblings and other children.
I most definitely would not leave three children aged 3 and under unsupervised, period.
Reasons for not:
1. Wake up and get distressed eg bad dream, unfamiliar surroundings, no reassuring responsible person present.
2. Madeleine wakes and comes to harm eg sharp instrument, runs bath,
4. Fire breaks out.
I have no idea whether or not the parents are indirectly responsible or in some way involved. I say indirectly as I am 100% certain that they would never have intentionally harmed any of their children in any shape or form.
Leaving them unsupervised though is in my opinion the height of irresponsibility. Perhaps made worse by the fact that they are professionals.
Well said Holly. 8@??)(
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Quite agree.
At a fast walking pace, a quick walk.
However, you do not know how fast these people were walking, whether distracted and/or the influence of alcohol, and of course we all know what alcohol does to human reflexes and reaction times.
That also applies to the so called 'regular' checks, which had no independent verification, and were also subject to the distracting effects of Ethanol consumption.
Try not to overlook the obvious.
Martin Brunt was walking at a perfectly normal pace. I suggest you look up the video he did for Channel 4 and watch it.
Interesting you mention ethanol consumption. Most normal people describe wine by the more common term alcohol. That you choose to distance yourself from normality in that way is most peculiar.
Perhaps another myth needs to be discussed as well?
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@Stephen25000
YOu claim that they were to some extent intoxicated. How much did they have to drink that night.
IF you are going to make claims, you must be prepared to back them up.
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Martin Brunt was walking at a perfectly normal pace. I suggest you look up the video he did for Channel 4 and watch it.
Interesting you mention ethanol consumption. Most normal people describe wine by the more common term alcohol. That you choose to distance yourself from normality in that way is most peculiar.
Perhaps another myth needs to be discussed as well?
How truly pathetic.
How many people behave normally under the influence of alcohol/ethanol.
You do know of course alcohol is a generic name for a group of compounds, ethanol is specific to one compound.
If you want to see the effects of ethanol on 'normal' people, visit a town or city centre at the weekend, in the evenings.
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How long do you think it takes to walk 80 metres even after a bottle of wine ? I could probably crawl that distance on my hands and knees in less than 3 minutes
Don't be stupid.
What's stupid about that are you suggesting it is impossible to crawl 27 metres in 60 seconds ?
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@Stephen25000
YOu claim that they were to some extent intoxicated. How much did they have to drink that night.
IF you are going to make claims, you must be prepared to back them up.
I said over the spread of several nights.
Likewise ,get off your backside and search, to find the waiters statements.
Again all I see from you is making excuses not to blame the Mccanns.
Now why would that be ?
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What's stupid about that are you suggesting it is impossible to crawl 27 metres in 60 seconds ?
What planet are you living on ?
What is crawling on your belly got anything to do with the distance from the Tapas bar, you know, that's the place they were drinking, to the apartment ?
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Neither the Portuguese nor the English legal system considered that the crime of neglect had occurred.
DO you not remember Debunker's Challenge-
ANy case in the UK where children were left alone in a domestic setting with claimed checks every 20-30 minutes, in the absence of any previous child care or criminal problems, where a criminal charge was successful in court.
NO one has found such a case in si,x years.
Pretty good guide that though what the McCanns did was very doubtful (IMHO) it was not criminal.
In the same vein can you cite any case where a child of Madeleine's age was abducted from an apartment that was not her home, in a country that she was not a native of and that turned up unharmed many years later ?
Just one will do.
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Hallo, CarlyMichelle, and welcome.
I left my children alone under similar circumstances. And if I recall correctly, so did your parents leave you alone. Or so have you said several times. Perhaps you were lying about this.
Fortunately, you were not abducted. But have you forgiven your parents for what you consider to be child abuse?
I would really like an answer to this.
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What planet are you living on ?
What is crawling on your belly got anything to do with the distance from the Tapas bar, you know, that's the place they were drinking, to the apartment ?
You are presumably not aware of figures of speech usually used when presented with irrational statements. You are suggesting that it could take 10 minutes to walk 80 yards which I consider to be somewhat extreme drink or no drink (In other words you are being disingenuous to suggest it was much further than it actually was to support your own ends). My response was 80 metres in 10 minutes I could travel that distance on my hands and knees(never mentioned on my belly) in a third of the time which guess what I can.
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How truly pathetic.
How many people behave normally under the influence of alcohol/ethanol.
You do know of course alcohol is a generic name for a group of compounds, ethanol is specific to one compound.
If you want to see the effects of ethanol on 'normal' people, visit a town or city centre at the weekend, in the evenings.
You are being utterly ridiculous. The McCanns were not drinking ethanol but wine. Your introduction of the notion of ethanol is pure distraction.
And it is perfectly possible for a person to walk almost normally (they may even speed up) after a few glasses of wine.
Your whole argument on this issue is bordering on the ludicrous.
The issue is that a normal pace for the walk as evidenced by Brunt in the video is 50 seconds for the 80 metres. That is a far cry from the carlymichelle claim of five to ten minutes which is outlandishly ridiculous.
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Neither the Portuguese nor the English legal system considered that the crime of neglect had occurred.
DO you not remember Debunker's Challenge-
ANy case in the UK where children were left alone in a domestic setting with claimed checks every 20-30 minutes, in the absence of any previous child care or criminal problems, where a criminal charge was successful in court.
NO one has found such a case in si,x years.
Pretty good guide that though what the McCanns did was very doubtful (IMHO) it was not criminal.
In the same vein can you cite any case where a child of Madeleine's age was abducted from an apartment that was not her home, in a country that she was not a native of and that turned up unharmed many years later ?
Just one will do.
THat is another question of a completely different nature.
I know of only one case where a telivision presenter was gunned down on her doorstep by her killer. Just because I cannot cite a similar case does not mean Jill Dando is alive!
THe assertion being made is that the McCann's child care was criminal neglect. The lack of any similar case DOES demonstrate that such behaviour has not historically been treated as criminal.
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So yet again someone denigrating the McCanns fails to back up their claims with any evidence.
Yes that would be you Stephen25000.
Interesting!
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So yet again someone denigrating the McCanns fails to back up their claims with any evidence.
Yes that would be you Stephen25000.
Interesting!
IT is a recognised pattern of behaviour for [ censored word]- offer no cites and accuse pros who supply and demand cites as being unreasonable and not allowing them their free speech.
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Apologies if you have been asked this before but have you looked into the Jeremy Bamber case? If so what are your thoughts on this?
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Who are you asking?
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Sorry Debunker-I was asking you but forgot to put your name in the post.
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So yet again someone denigrating the McCanns fails to back up their claims with any evidence.
Yes that would be you Stephen25000.
Interesting!
Let's try making this very simple.
In alcoholic drinks there is a compound called ethanol.
So when people consume alcoholic beverages they imbibe ethanol.
Do you comprehend that ?
Next, and this is pretty simple, look for the witness statements of the waiters from the tapas bar, to see how much vino was being served to these people.
perhaps you are unable to do that, or don't want to face the simple truth....
They placed their need for 'social recreation' over the need for child care of three very young children.
Perhaps you need a drink yourself, or more.
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I have followed it in the press with interest.
I believe that he should not have been convicted as 2 members of the jury thought that he was innocent.
IN my view the prosecution failed to prove its case; our appeal system is grossly unfair and biased against any convicted criminal being released even if the balance of evidence alters in their favor over time.
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So yet again someone denigrating the McCanns fails to back up their claims with any evidence.
Yes that would be you Stephen25000.
Interesting!
Let's try making this very simple.
In alcoholic drinks there is a compound called ethanol.
So when people consume alcoholic beverages they imbibe ethanol.
Do you comprehend that ?
Next, and this is pretty simple, look for the witness statements of the waiters from the tapas bar, to see how much vino was being served to these people.
perhaps you are unable to do that, or don't want to face the simple truth....
They placed their need for 'social recreation' over the need for child care of three very young children.
Perhaps you need a drink yourself, or more.
Let's make it even easier. You do not know who drank, who didn't, how much anyone had. Do you know if the people doing the checking even drank anything that night. Do you know how many bottles were charged to the table that night.
THese and other pertinent questions will be ignored by you so that you can keep posting from your favored position- ignorance.
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Let's make it even easier. You do not know who drank, who didn't, how much anyone had. Do you know if the people doing the checking even drank anything that night. Do you know how many bottles were charged to the table that night.
THese and other pertinent questions will be ignored by you so that you can keep posting from your favored position- ignorance.
The clear unadulterated ignorance is shown on your part.
Your claims of what work you do are just that, claims with no back up and no evidence to support them.
i.e. They are pure hyperbole.
Now get off your R's, do some research into the effects of alcohol/ethanol on the human body, and come back when you have something intelligent to say, rather than your usual banal rubbish.
P.S. You are to being 'neutral' as Wayne Rooney is, in utilizing the finer points of English Grammar when he mouths off the 'f' word.
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@Stephen25000
OH look. Evidence rather than idle speculation
But the group's waiter, Jose Baptista, said they were 'very sensible' about their drinking and usually had eight to ten bottles over the course of two or three hours.
A second worker at the tapas bar, who asked not to be named, said: "They didn't drink any more than anyone else. 'They might have been tipsy but they weren't falling over. Everyone handles drink differently."
The group of four families dined together every night and all left their children sleeping in their own apartments, about 40 metres from the tapas bar.
The local police officers who were summoned to the complex after Mrs McCann realised Madeleine was missing said the group "seemed to be normal" and were not drunk, the Portuguese newspaper Correio da Manha said.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-491693/Portuguese-police-Were-Kate-Gerry-drunk-night-Madeleine-vanished.html
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@Stephen25000
OH look. Evidence rather than idle speculation
But the group's waiter, Jose Baptista, said they were 'very sensible' about their drinking and usually had eight to ten bottles over the course of two or three hours.
A second worker at the tapas bar, who asked not to be named, said: "They didn't drink any more than anyone else. 'They might have been tipsy but they weren't falling over. Everyone handles drink differently."
The group of four families dined together every night and all left their children sleeping in their own apartments, about 40 metres from the tapas bar.
The local police officers who were summoned to the complex after Mrs McCann realised Madeleine was missing said the group "seemed to be normal" and were not drunk, the Portuguese newspaper Correio da Manha said.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-491693/Portuguese-police-Were-Kate-Gerry-drunk-night-Madeleine-vanished.html
Is that the best you can do ?
I quoted that on the Amazon Thread quite some time ago.
Like i said.
Do some research.
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CarlyMichelle, You have not answered my question. How did you feel about your parents leaving you and your brother alone in a hotel room while they ate dinner? You have repeatedly said that your parents did this.
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Hello
I have been there and eaten in the outdoor restaurant as did The Mccanns.
It is effectively in the back garden of the apartments, but there is a walled walkway between it and the apartments, therefore a person must go back to the road via the reception to gain access to the apartments. But have no doubts about it, it is part of the Ocean Club apartments and effectively the back garden.
As I have been shouting for about three years now, the distance from where we sat and ate at the Tapas restaurant, crow flies, to the patio doors is 50 metres. To walk to the patio doors is under 80 metres. In an emergency, a run of a few seconds for a fit person like Kate or Gerry. The Mccanns sat in the same restaurant as us and just about 2 or 3 metres to the west of where we sat
Where we and the Mccanns sat is NOT a bar; it is an outside restaurant. The bar is the ?brick built proper building to the west of the Tapas Restaurant. Many of the photographs on various websites are incorrectly (?Maliciously?) taken from this bar and they give a totally untrue image of the distance and visibility.
From photographs taken at the time of Madeleine's abduction, it is clear that all the bushes and hedges had just been cut back. Many of the incorrect photos were taken months later when the foliage had grown and give a totally false impression. Where we sat we had a clear view of virtually the whole patio door and the steps up. The Mccanns view would have been almost the same.
Since going there it has sickened me to see the disinformation given out about the view the Mccanns had. Disinformation and Propaganda are very powerful weapons and they have clearly devastated the truth.
All measurements taken by Google Earth
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Hello
I have been there and eaten in the outdoor restaurant as did The Mccanns.
It is effectively in the back garden of the apartments, but there is a walled walkway between it and the apartments, therefore a person must go back to the road via the reception to gain access to the apartments. But have no doubts about it, it is part of the Ocean Club apartments and effectively the back garden.
As I have been shouting for about three years now, the distance from where we sat and ate at the Tapasrestaurant, crow flies, to the patio doors is 50 metres. To walk to the patio doors is under 80 metres. In an emergency, a run of a few seconds for a fit person like Kate or Gerry. The Mccanns sat in the same restaurant as us and just about 2 or 3 metres to the west of where we sat
Where we and the Mccanns sat is NOT a bar; it is an outside restaurant. The bar is the ?brick built proper building to the west of the Tapas Restaurant. Many of the photographs on various websites are incorrectly (?Maliciously?) taken from this bar and they give a totally untrue image of the distance and visibility.
From photographs taken at the time of Madeleine's abduction, it is clear that all the bushes and hedges had just been cut back. Many of the incorrect photos were taken months later when the foliage had grown and give a totally false impression. Where we sat we had a clear view of virtually the whole patio door and the steps up. The Mccanns view would have been almost the same.
Since going there it has sickened me to see the disinformation given out about the view the Mccanns had. Disinformation and Propaganda are very powerful weapons and they have clearly devastated the truth.
All measurements taken by Google Earth
Thank you for that first hand account which effectively puts to bed so many myths and bits of fluff which are so often posted about these matters.
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So yet again someone denigrating the McCanns fails to back up their claims with any evidence.
Yes that would be you Stephen25000.
Interesting!
Let's try making this very simple.
In alcoholic drinks there is a compound called ethanol.
So when people consume alcoholic beverages they imbibe ethanol.
Do you comprehend that ?
Next, and this is pretty simple, look for the witness statements of the waiters from the tapas bar, to see how much vino was being served to these people.
perhaps you are unable to do that, or don't want to face the simple truth....
They placed their need for 'social recreation' over the need for child care of three very young children.
Perhaps you need a drink yourself, or more.
Even simpler.
You do not know what you are talking about and are bluffing with your pretentious and ludicrous, irrelevant nonsense about ethanol and your patronising nonsense about me needing a drink when anyone reading my posts can see there is no need for that at all.
It is a known fact that the McCanns regret their decision to use those childcare arrangements.
The fact that you cannot get beyond the matter in order to discuss what actually happened that night and are obsessing on a nonsensical claim about it taking up to ten minutes to go from Tapas to Apartment and an even more idiotic idea you have that using the word ethanol makes you look intelligent when all normal people use the word alchohol to describe wine is showing you up now.
Where did I state 10 minutes ?
Someone else said that.
In your rush to defend the Mccanns, common sense goes out the window.
Don't you know even basic biochemistry as to what alcohols are, yes there is more than one of them.
Would you like a lesson on that ?
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Hello
I have been there and eaten in the outdoor restaurant as did The Mccanns.
It is effectively in the back garden of the apartments, but there is a walled walkway between it and the apartments, therefore a person must go back to the road via the reception to gain access to the apartments. But have no doubts about it, it is part of the Ocean Club apartments and effectively the back garden.
As I have been shouting for about three years now, the distance from where we sat and ate at the Tapasrestaurant, crow flies, to the patio doors is 50 metres. To walk to the patio doors is under 80 metres. In an emergency, a run of a few seconds for a fit person like Kate or Gerry. The Mccanns sat in the same restaurant as us and just about 2 or 3 metres to the west of where we sat
Where we and the Mccanns sat is NOT a bar; it is an outside restaurant. The bar is the ?brick built proper building to the west of the Tapas Restaurant. Many of the photographs on various websites are incorrectly (?Maliciously?) taken from this bar and they give a totally untrue image of the distance and visibility.
From photographs taken at the time of Madeleine's abduction, it is clear that all the bushes and hedges had just been cut back. Many of the incorrect photos were taken months later when the foliage had grown and give a totally false impression. Where we sat we had a clear view of virtually the whole patio door and the steps up. The Mccanns view would have been almost the same.
Since going there it has sickened me to see the disinformation given out about the view the Mccanns had. Disinformation and Propaganda are very powerful weapons and they have clearly devastated the truth.
All measurements taken by Google Earth
Thank you for that first hand account which effectively puts to bed so many myths and bits of fluff which are so often posted about these matters.
You ask me for proof and yet accept this ?
First hand account ?
Of course because it reinforces your view the Mccanns did nothing wrong.
However, I must remember, it was 'inn' the back garden.
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Stephen
I gave you a first hand account. Are you calling me a liar?
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Thank you for that first hand account which effectively puts to bed so many myths and bits of fluff which are so often posted about these matters.
You ask me for proof and yet accept this ?
First hand account ?
Of course because it reinforces your view the Mccanns did nothing wrong.
However, I must remember, it was 'inn' the back garden.
Having previous knowledge of the poster and having previously seen further information, yes.
Nothing to do with my view at all.
When you stop obsessing about your ethanol, maybe normality will resume for you?
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Stephen
I gave you a first hand account. Are you calling me a liar?
That would be the implication from his post.
I see he made the allegation through a post to me though, not directly to you. Interesting!
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Stephen
I gave you a first hand account. Are you calling me a liar?
As I have been told on here, word of mouth is not proof 8(0(*
P.S. do you post and/or ..... or stm ?
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Lets all calm down please!
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You ask me for proof and yet accept this ?
First hand account ?
Of course because it reinforces your view the Mccanns did nothing wrong.
However, I must remember, it was 'inn' the back garden.
Having previous knowledge of the poster and having previously seen further information, yes.
Nothing to do with my view at all.
When you stop obsessing about your ethanol, maybe normality will resume for you?
Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not obsessed with alcohol.
I have merely pointed out it dulls the senses and reaction times, amongst other factors.
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Lets all calm down please!
Sorry John.
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Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not obsessed with alcohol.
I have merely pointed out it dulls the senses and reaction times, amongst other factors.
Ah, finally you are using the normal term for a bottle of wine.
But seriously, even if we accept your supposition that those checking the children had drunk a few glasses of wine, do you think they would be so incapable as not to be able to walk from the Tapas to the Apartment in under a minute. Do you not agree they may even have walked more quickly rather than more slowly?
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Stephen
I gave you a first hand account. Are you calling me a liar?
As I have been told on here, word of mouth is not proof 8(0(*
P.S. do you post and/or ..... or stm ?
No. I post on neither.
May i point out that there is a difference between a first hand account and a second or third hand account (with no name attached to the original that you have given)
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La la la, I think I am getting a bit jaded for tonight.
What we must remember is that most people don't automatically believe that everyone is guilty. However, those of The Pitch Forking mentality do. This is their Raison d'etre. This is what they do. And there is no doubt that they were at it on day two. These are the genetic left overs from The Witchcraft Trials.
I was given a mouthful of abuse on some Forum or another when I dared to suggest that it might be better to wait and see. I do actually remember which Forum, but that is by the by. I was shocked rigid, and could well have bailed out altogether. Excepting that I do not take well to bullying, which is why I am still here.
But never the twain shall meet. So it could be called a pointless exercise. And I really do not know why I go on doing this. Other than for the fact that their lies really annoy me.
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Ah, finally you are using the normal term for a bottle of wine.
But seriously, even if we accept your supposition that those checking the children had drunk a few glasses of wine, do you think they would be so incapable as not to be able to walk from the Tapas to the Apartment in under a minute. Do you not agree they may even have walked more quickly rather than more slowly?
I suggest you look up studies on the effects of alcohol on human metabolisms, both physiological and psychological.
Then tell me this.
Would you leave 3 small children unguarded in a house/apartment/ anywhere per se, where it was unlocked, merely to go out and drink, and have irregular checks, affected and distracted by socializing ?
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Stephen
I gave you a first hand account. Are you calling me a liar?
As I have been told on here, word of mouth is not proof 8(0(*
P.S. do you post and/or ..... or stm ?
No. I post on neither.
May i point out that there is a difference between a first hand account and a second or third hand account (with no name attached to the original that you have given)
Again, a statement by you is not proof of anything.
I could state that I have seen a clump of dark matter levitating overhead, when I took my dog for a walk, but that is not proof, is it ?
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I dont know where you get the 10 bottles of wine from? This reminds me of Digital Spy forum, where Myths abounded.
All the talk on there was about them being at a bar 200 -300 metres away (or something like that), and on the Razzle, drinking 10 bottles of wine - in fact i think it was stretched to 14 on one occasion.
I am not about to look it up in the PJ files, but I think that the waiting staff said about 3 or 4 bottles of wine and they were not finished. There is nothing unusual about someone having a 1/4 or 1/3 of a bottle, with a meal, over an hour and a half. Nothing at all. Most people would not really be affected by that amount.
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@ Stephen 25,000. I have done just that. And I cannot remember ever staggering home absolutely pissed.
Not enough attention is paid to the fact that I was not a bad parent for doing this. And neither am I in the minority.
I find it to be quite amazing that people who confine their children to their bedrooms and their apron strings do not see that they do far more harm to their children than I ever did to mine. It is ultimately a state of mind. "I kept my children always in my sight, and never allowed them any freedom." Well done, you all. See where that will get your children.
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I dont know where you get the 10 bottles of wine from? This reminds me of Digital Spy forum, where Myths abounded.
All the talk on there was about them being at a bar 200 -300 metres away (or something like that), and on the Razzle, drinking 10 bottles of wine - in fact i think it was stretched to 14 on one occasion.
I am not about to look it up in the PJ files, but I think that the waiting staff said about 3 or 4 bottles of wine and they were not finished. There is nothing unusual about someone having a 1/4 or 1/3 of a bottle, with a meal, over an hour and a half. Nothing at all. Most people would not really be affected by that amount.
Not quite.
On the night in question there were apparently3/4 bottles on the table, not fully consumed.
The '10' bottle is referring to other nights.
There was a claim somewhere of, on one night, about 13 bottles consumed, plus extras.
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Would you leave 3 small children unguarded in a house/apartment/ anywhere per se, where it was unlocked, merely to go out and drink, and have irregular checks, affected and distracted by socializing ?
Once again stephen disinformation.
The Mccanns DID NOT go out merely to drink. Why did you say that? As you well know they went to have their meal in a restaurant that was only 50 metres away from the apartment and furthermore it was in the Garden to the apartments.
The only entrance that was unlocked was within their visibility, only 50 metres away. May I respectfully suggest that you pace that distance out and see whether you could see and hear your distresed child calling. I can tell you (even tho you might chose not to believe me) that my garden was that long and I could easily hear them, when chatting to a neighbour, if they called.
A Mother is tuned into the cries of her children
From photographs the porch to the patio was well lit by the street lamp outside
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Ah, finally you are using the normal term for a bottle of wine.
But seriously, even if we accept your supposition that those checking the children had drunk a few glasses of wine, do you think they would be so incapable as not to be able to walk from the Tapas to the Apartment in under a minute. Do you not agree they may even have walked more quickly rather than more slowly?
I suggest you look up studies on the effects of alcohol on human metabolisms, both physiological and psychological.
Then tell me this.
Would you leave 3 small children unguarded in a house/apartment/ anywhere per se, where it was unlocked, merely to go out and drink, and have irregular checks, affected and distracted by socializing ?
Why should I look up studies to understand a perfectly normal part of human behaviour, having a few glasses of wine? Your fixation on ethanol is very peculiar.
I have done that, out in the garden. And no my garden may not be as big as the area around the Tapas/Apartment but there are similarities in that I could see the patio doors/french windows which were open and it would have taken around 20 seconds to get from decking and summer house to the door, a whole 20 seconds less than that Tapas to the apartment. And some of us did from time to time make checks on the very young children in the house and we did drink and...
You know that the McCanns have admitted their arrangement was wrong, that they would never consider it again but that at the time they felt it was safe. Yet you continue to hound them over it? Revealing and interesting!
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I don't know where you get the 10 bottles of wine from? This reminds me of Digital Spy forum, where Myths abounded.
All the talk on there was about them being at a bar 200 -300 metres away (or something like that), and on the Razzle, drinking 10 bottles of wine - in fact i think it was stretched to 14 on one occasion.
I am not about to look it up in the PJ files, but I think that the waiting staff said about 3 or 4 bottles of wine and they were not finished. There is nothing unusual about someone having a 1/4 or 1/3 of a bottle, with a meal, over an hour and a half. Nothing at all. Most people would not really be affected by that amount.
Not quite.
On the night in question there were apparently3/4 bottles on the table, not fully consumed.
The '10' bottle is referring to other nights.
There was a claim somewhere of, on one night, about 13 bottles consumed, plus extras.
Yes, but who has claimed it Stephen? What was the source of that claim? I have given myself as the source for information further up the thread. It is on my head if it is false info. You chose to believe me a liar ... but only because you don't like the way the argument is going, and don't want accept facts.
Ya know Stephen, one poster on Digital Spy was claiming that money was being passed in brown paper envelopes by the Mccanns. Scandalous it was, blatant lies.
She eventually owned up to making it up.
Seems you are believing myths formed by people of that type.
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My post 42
The local police officers who were summoned to the complex after Mrs McCann realised Madeleine was missing said the group "seemed to be normal" and were not drunk, the Portuguese newspaper Correio da Manha said.
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well in the mcann case they were not with the children they were in a tapas bar approx 5 or 10 minutes walk was it not?? anything could happen to a 3 year old and 2 year olds in that little time and clearly no matter what anyones view in this case something did indeed happen to maddie......... so i do find that neglectful especally since she was heard crying and they still went out
Actually it was not approximately 5 or ten minutes walk as you posit.
There is actually a video of Martin Brunt walking from a table at the Tapas to the Apartment. It takes him 80 paces and he does it in 48 seconds.
It really behoves those wishing to comment on the case to get the facts right before they make pronouncements.
You appear to be another person who places themself in the position of being more knowledgeable than those directly involved with the case. Whilst the Attorney General was precise in his complete dismissal of charges against the McCanns for the conduct you deplore you still denigrate them for it. Interesting.
I find that amazing that it only takes around 48 secs or less than a minute to walk from the tapas bar to the apartment. I agree about this forming the basis for yet another myth...I am up to 7 of them now and adding more all the time. When I get an opportunity I will add them to the myth thread.
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I don't know where you get the 10 bottles of wine from? This reminds me of Digital Spy forum, where Myths abounded.
All the talk on there was about them being at a bar 200 -300 metres away (or something like that), and on the Razzle, drinking 10 bottles of wine - in fact i think it was stretched to 14 on one occasion.
I am not about to look it up in the PJ files, but I think that the waiting staff said about 3 or 4 bottles of wine and they were not finished. There is nothing unusual about someone having a 1/4 or 1/3 of a bottle, with a meal, over an hour and a half. Nothing at all. Most people would not really be affected by that amount.
Not quite.
On the night in question there were apparently3/4 bottles on the table, not fully consumed.
The '10' bottle is referring to other nights.
There was a claim somewhere of, on one night, about 13 bottles consumed, plus extras.
Yes, but who has claimed it Stephen? What was the source of that claim? I have given myself as the source for information further up the thread. It is on my head if it is false info. You chose to believe me a liar ... but only because you don't like the way the argument is going, and don't want accept facts.
Ya know Stephen, one poster on Digital Spy was claiming that money was being passed in brown paper envelopes by the Mccanns. Scandalous it was, blatant lies.
She eventually owned up to making it up.
Seems you are believing myths formed by people of that type.
You claim to have 'seen' something at first hand and constitutes proof.
I do that and I'm making it up.
That is not logic, that is pure drivel.
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Ah, finally you are using the normal term for a bottle of wine.
But seriously, even if we accept your supposition that those checking the children had drunk a few glasses of wine, do you think they would be so incapable as not to be able to walk from the Tapas to the Apartment in under a minute. Do you not agree they may even have walked more quickly rather than more slowly?
I suggest you look up studies on the effects of alcohol on human metabolisms, both physiological and psychological.
Then tell me this.
Would you leave 3 small children unguarded in a house/apartment/ anywhere per se, where it was unlocked, merely to go out and drink, and have irregular checks, affected and distracted by socializing ?
Why should I look up studies to understand a perfectly normal part of human behaviour, having a few glasses of wine? Your fixation on ethanol is very peculiar.
I have done that, out in the garden. And no my garden may not be as big as the area around the Tapas/Apartment but there are similarities in that I could see the patio doors/french windows which were open and it would have taken around 20 seconds to get from decking and summer house to the door, a whole 20 seconds less than that Tapas to the apartment. And some of us did from time to time make checks on the very young children in the house and we did drink and...
You know that the McCanns have admitted their arrangement was wrong, that they would never consider it again but that at the time they felt it was safe. Yet you continue to hound them over it? Revealing and interesting!
Fixation with alcohol.
You have a very narrow view of the world.
Not everyone drinks alcohol, or didn't you know that.
Alcohol has negative effects on human physiology. Fact.
As to childcare, perhaps you should read the guidelines on childcare......
One of the posters on Amazon put it quite succinctly last night.
'The reason why the guidance from the NSPCC states that babies and small children should never be left home alone is not something which is plucked out of thin air. Accidents happen to children every day. Most of those accidents happen in the home. And most of them happened because the children were not being properly supervised.'
Your views on the Mccanns have no logic, merely display excuses for indefensible behaviour.
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well in the mcann case they were not with the children they were in a tapas bar approx 5 or 10 minutes walk was it not?? anything could happen to a 3 year old and 2 year olds in that little time and clearly no matter what anyones view in this case something did indeed happen to maddie......... so i do find that neglectful especally since she was heard crying and they still went out
Actually it was not approximately 5 or ten minutes walk as you posit.
There is actually a video of Martin Brunt walking from a table at the Tapas to the Apartment. It takes him 80 paces and he does it in 48 seconds.
It really behoves those wishing to comment on the case to get the facts right before they make pronouncements.
You appear to be another person who places themself in the position of being more knowledgeable than those directly involved with the case. Whilst the Attorney General was precise in his complete dismissal of charges against the McCanns for the conduct you deplore you still denigrate them for it. Interesting.
I find that amazing that it only takes around 48 secs or less than a minute to walk from the tapas bar to the apartment. I agree about this forming the basis for yet another myth...I am up to 7 of them now and adding more all the time. When I get an opportunity I will add them to the myth thread.
Good stuff. 8@??)(
Merely Martha that someone states they could walk in around 48 seconds, does not mean that happened.
Unfortunately. people do walk at different paces, for a wide variety of reasons.
Namely, it likewise means that applies to the Mccanns.
Finally, 'it wasn't like being in the back garden', they were in a Tapas bar, eating, drinking and socializing.
The Mccanns children were left in, they claim, in a locked/unlocked apartment.
The consequence of which led to the disappearance of Madeleine.
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In any case, the speed at which the McCanns actually walked 80 metres that evening is kind of immaterial. The fact is that there *could* have walked it in 48 seconds. That is how close they were. They were not a 5 minute or 10 minute walk away, they could easily have reached the apartment in under a minute if they so chose, even under the influence or 2-3 glasses of wine - unless you believe that they suffer from some other physical impairment that makes this quite impossible?
Could, does not mean they did.
It's speculation.
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In any case, the speed at which the McCanns actually walked 80 metres that evening is kind of immaterial. The fact is that there *could* have walked it in 48 seconds. That is how close they were. They were not a 5 minute or 10 minute walk away, they could easily have reached the apartment in under a minute if they so chose, even under the influence or 2-3 glasses of wine - unless you believe that they suffer from some other physical impairment that makes this quite impossible?
Could, does not mean they did.
It's speculation.
BUt almost all YOUR arguments are speculation and you expect people to accept it when you speculate.
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How long do you think it took them to walk 80 metres then Stephen? Do you think 5-10 minutes is more realistic than 1 minute? If so, why would you think that?
Because it suits his agenda no other reason
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I don't know where you get the 10 bottles of wine from? This reminds me of Digital Spy forum, where Myths abounded.
All the talk on there was about them being at a bar 200 -300 metres away (or something like that), and on the Razzle, drinking 10 bottles of wine - in fact i think it was stretched to 14 on one occasion.
I am not about to look it up in the PJ files, but I think that the waiting staff said about 3 or 4 bottles of wine and they were not finished. There is nothing unusual about someone having a 1/4 or 1/3 of a bottle, with a meal, over an hour and a half. Nothing at all. Most people would not really be affected by that amount.
Not quite.
On the night in question there were apparently3/4 bottles on the table, not fully consumed.
The '10' bottle is referring to other nights.
There was a claim somewhere of, on one night, about 13 bottles consumed, plus extras.
Yes, but who has claimed it Stephen? What was the source of that claim? I have given myself as the source for information further up the thread. It is on my head if it is false info. You chose to believe me a liar ... but only because you don't like the way the argument is going, and don't want accept facts.
Ya know Stephen, one poster on Digital Spy was claiming that money was being passed in brown paper envelopes by the Mccanns. Scandalous it was, blatant lies.
She eventually owned up to making it up.
Seems you are believing myths formed by people of that type.
You claim to have 'seen' something at first hand and constitutes proof.
I do that and I'm making it up.
That is not logic, that is pure drivel.
Could you give us an example of where you have been in contact with or seen something that is relevant to this case first hand and then we can consider your evidence on its merits. The nearest I have been to anything tangible to this case case is a friends bar in Burgau so I am unable to comment on the distances between the Tapas Bar and 5A but see no reason not to accept the testimony of somebody who has.
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@ bedbunker
As with my example, the case of the McCanns is so rare there probably is little precedent for what happened and therefore if taken to court the verdict would be uncertain.
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@ bedbunker
As with my example, the case of the McCanns is so rare there probably is little precedent for what happened and therefore if taken to court the verdict would be uncertain.
IT would have to get to court first. Many cases of possible neglect passed by the CPS involve abandonment for long periods of time, or abandonment outside the domestic environment, or abandment following several other child care reforms.
I have worked in multi- agency child protection where we use Sweet and Maxwell as the "bible". This includes all the statute and case law on child protection issues. It has decision tables for referral for prosecution; the McCann case comes nowhere near UK requirements for charging. The McCanns have already dismissed any case of neglect based on current evidence.
http://www.sweetandmaxwell.co.uk/Catalogue/ProductDetails.aspx?productid=93983&recordid=1839
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In any case, the speed at which the McCanns actually walked 80 metres that evening is kind of immaterial. The fact is that there *could* have walked it in 48 seconds. That is how close they were. They were not a 5 minute or 10 minute walk away, they could easily have reached the apartment in under a minute if they so chose, even under the influence or 2-3 glasses of wine - unless you believe that they suffer from some other physical impairment that makes this quite impossible?
Could, does not mean they did.
It's speculation.
They could have chosen to hop on one leg between the Tapas Bar and the Apartment which would have slowed them down considerably. The likelihood however is that they walked normally - do you concede that this is more likely?
From the sublime to the ridiculous.
You are speculating, merely because you support the mccanns.
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Hello
I have been there and eaten in the outdoor restaurant as did The Mccanns.
It is effectively in the back garden of the apartments, but there is a walled walkway between it and the apartments, therefore a person must go back to the road via the reception to gain access to the apartments. But have no doubts about it, it is part of the Ocean Club apartments and effectively the back garden.
As I have been shouting for about three years now, the distance from where we sat and ate at the Tapas restaurant, crow flies, to the patio doors is 50 metres. To walk to the patio doors is under 80 metres. In an emergency, a run of a few seconds for a fit person like Kate or Gerry. The Mccanns sat in the same restaurant as us and just about 2 or 3 metres to the west of where we sat
Where we and the Mccanns sat is NOT a bar; it is an outside restaurant. The bar is the ?brick built proper building to the west of the Tapas Restaurant. Many of the photographs on various websites are incorrectly (?Maliciously?) taken from this bar and they give a totally untrue image of the distance and visibility.
From photographs taken at the time of Madeleine's abduction, it is clear that all the bushes and hedges had just been cut back. Many of the incorrect photos were taken months later when the foliage had grown and give a totally false impression. Where we sat we had a clear view of virtually the whole patio door and the steps up. The Mccanns view would have been almost the same.
Since going there it has sickened me to see the disinformation given out about the view the Mccanns had. Disinformation and Propaganda are very powerful weapons and they have clearly devastated the truth.
All measurements taken by Google Earth
Hi Sadie, I was at the complex too a few years past, and my initial thoughts were that it did seem a fairly long and hazardous distence between tapas restaurant and apartments. As you correctly note, the restaurant is within it's own walled compound complete with swimming pool and hedgerow which probably adds to a feeling of being separated from accomadation by sight and sound.
I say sound because I believe that this is of paramount importence. It could be argued that the Mccann apartment may have been viewed from their location at the tapas, (but not inside each room) but it must be agreed that it was impossible for the parents to hear any of their children in the event of distress or harm.
The 'checks' therefore must have proved worthless for the well being of the children as it only takes seconds for a child to choke or worse.
IMO, when you add all things into the mix, the location, the unsupervised childcare, the socialising and drinking, the dynamic within the group of professionals, the changing timelines and statements, and more, I tend to think that something happened as a result of all these factors and as Murat described it as 'the biggest Fxxx up of all time', or words to that effect.
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(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Tl0_pH4oBP8/TzfdjB5czUI/AAAAAAAAKY4/QkMaCSkWRlA/s1600/GoogleEarth_Image.jpg)I
As you will see this is a plan of most of block 5 Ocean Club.
The Tapas Bar is inside a proper building. The red marker (labelled 'Not K&G') to the west and the 'r' of 'indoor' to the east. The outdoor Tapas restaurant is where K&G and sadie (me) sat.
Apartment 5A is clearly shown, as is the patio door and reception.
OC is built on a hill and whilst the front door at the NE corner is at ground level, the rear patio is more like a balcony because the ground has fallen away considerably. There are a good number of steps up to the patio, so it is like first floor level from the back.
This means that despite the walls around the pathway traversing East to West, one can see the patio area, because it is raised. Also it means that how the shrubs were when we visited in 2010, we could see clean over the top of any, in what appears direct line
Where we sat, we could clearly see virtually the whole of the sitting room patio door, top to bottom and side to side. The Mccanns sat a coupla-so metres to the west and their view was not quite as good, but they could still see most of the patio doors and the steps down.
As I said before, it can be seen from contemporary photographs that the bushes and foliage had recently been heavily trimmed back.
I am sorry, but the poster to whom I am replying, no longer shows with his/her name, but this is for you and anyone else to read (especially the disbelieving Steven)
The sound:
PdL is an extremely quiet resort. A nice place to visit. No noticeable sounds when I was there in the June/July 2010. Virtually no traffic; no shouting, nothing really to break the silence, and a clear pathway for any sounds to travel along.
Except, of course. there was a thin plastic wall, but with gaps.
We used to have a garden which was exactly 50 metres long and chatting to neighbours, whatever, we never failed to hear if our children called us ... and we lived on the main ring road of a busy town at that time. Admittedly we were a good distance back, but it was not silent as PdL was.
The Tapas restaurant was out of doors. I think that it was possible to eat in the bar area as well but that was further away and with solid walls would mask sound. This out door restaurant was enclosed in a tent like structure with gaps and huge picture windows towards the apartments. Visibility was very good.
We did not have a plastic sheet (with gaps)between us and the house, but then we had our backs to the house as we talked over the fence at home ... so with Brummy traffic noise, not very different really.
Suggest, if you can find a suitably quiet place, you try it for yourselves.
50 Metres, give or take a metre, that's all it is.
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To walk to the patio doors, one just had to walk the little pathway to the reception, along the road for a short distance, through the gate, then up about 11 steps (from memory). About 3 steps across the balcony /patio and you were there. Less than 80 metres
To put that into perspective the 100 metres can be run in 10 seconds, as some perceptive person noted earlier. My educated guess is that K & G could have run it in about 20 seconds. Some folks would take longer than that to get out of their chair!
Hope this helps
Will try and organise myself to show anyone who doesn't know how to measure using GEarth, just how it is done.
Then Stephen you can check all my distances ... would be delighted if you did
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I am not seriously speculating that they hopped on one leg. I suppose it could have happened, nothing is impossible within reason, however I think it's safe to rule that idea out. Just as I think it's safe to rule out the idea that they were so drunk they could only manage to walk 8 metres per minute.
8 metres per minute and people like Stephen25000 and Carlymichelle expect us to take them seriously.
Incidentally Stephen25000 have you backed up your claims about excessive alcohol (oops ethanol as you're a scientist) consumption yet or is that just a myth? Or do you just think we should take your word for it (you being a scientist and all that)?
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I fell so sorry when I read here how some of you are so arrogant.
I can't find it justifiable to leave small children alone in a foreign country. Although there are parents who do this but don't have their children disappeared.
Now the McCain's one child is disappeared and there is nothing to defend their actions. The fact that they left the kids several nights in a row to enjoy themselves is indefensible.
It is the child who is vulnerable to be defended NOT the parents.
If you were to ask the kids if they want to be alone or not in a strange room in a foreign country what do you think they will respond?
If you have 'lost' your child, you will take your punishment. One can't blame others because they did not do this or that.
It also occurs to me that NOBODY talks about Madeleine, only the parents.
VEry few people applaud the McCanns' child care practices, but that does not excuse campaigns of defamation and harassment on the internet as Tony Bennett found when sued for defamation.
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I fell so sorry when I read here how some of you are so arrogant.
I can't find it justifiable to leave small children alone in a foreign country. Although there are parents who do this but don't have their children disappeared.
Now the McCain's one child is disappeared and there is nothing to defend their actions. The fact that they left the kids several nights in a row to enjoy themselves is indefensible.
It is the child who is vulnerable to be defended NOT the parents.
If you were to ask the kids if they want to be alone or not in a strange room in a foreign country what do you think they will respond?
If you have 'lost' your child, you will take your punishment. One can't blame others because they did not do this or that.
It also occurs to me that NOBODY talks about Madeleine, only the parents.
VEry few people applaud the McCanns' child care practices, but that does not excuse campaigns of defamation and harassment on the internet as Tony Bennett found when sued for defamation.
Bennett is a fool and got his just desserts.
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I fell so sorry when I read here how some of you are so arrogant.
I can't find it justifiable to leave small children alone in a foreign country. Although there are parents who do this but don't have their children disappeared.
Now the McCain's one child is disappeared and there is nothing to defend their actions. The fact that they left the kids several nights in a row to enjoy themselves is indefensible.
It is the child who is vulnerable to be defended NOT the parents.
If you were to ask the kids if they want to be alone or not in a strange room in a foreign country what do you think they will respond?
If you have 'lost' your child, you will take your punishment. One can't blame others because they did not do this or that.
It also occurs to me that NOBODY talks about Madeleine, only the parents.
VEry few people applaud the McCanns' child care practices, but that does not excuse campaigns of defamation and harassment on the internet as Tony Bennett found when sued for defamation.
Bennett is a fool and got his just desserts.
THe comment about Bennett being a fool and getting his just desserts is not mine- your html went wrong and I hope I have corrected it in this quote.
I do however agree he is a fool and deserved his comeuppance.
DO you feel the same about HiDeHo who plows the same furrow.
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I fell so sorry when I read here how some of you are so arrogant.
I can't find it justifiable to leave small children alone in a foreign country. Although there are parents who do this but don't have their children disappeared.
Now the McCain's one child is disappeared and there is nothing to defend their actions. The fact that they left the kids several nights in a row to enjoy themselves is indefensible.
It is the child who is vulnerable to be defended NOT the parents.
If you were to ask the kids if they want to be alone or not in a strange room in a foreign country what do you think they will respond?
If you have 'lost' your child, you will take your punishment. One can't blame others because they did not do this or that.
It also occurs to me that NOBODY talks about Madeleine, only the parents.
VEry few people applaud the McCanns' child care practices, but that does not excuse campaigns of defamation and harassment on the internet as Tony Bennett found when sued for defamation.
Bennett is a fool and got his just desserts.
THe comment about Bennett being a fool and getting his just desserts is not mine- your html went wrong and I hope I have corrected it in this quote.
I do however agree he is a fool and deserved his comeuppance.
DO you feel the same about HiDeHo who plows the same furrow.
Thanks for doing that.
I take a look at some of Hi-de-Ho's videos after work today.