UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: ISpyWithMyEye on May 09, 2020, 02:01:43 PM
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Looking at just one part of June’s will, which Jeremy admitted reading (how, I wonder?🤔) you can see how inflamed he must have been when he read that all June’s share of Osea Road Campsite was to go to SHEILA CAFFELL, and Sheila’s children would inherit it in the event of her death when they reached 18 years of age.
So, eventually the twins would have inherited 50% of Osea Road Campsite.
That’s just ONE motive why Jeremy Bamber wanted the twins dead.
There’s more too...
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Looking at just one part of June’s will, which Jeremy admitted reading (how, I wonder?🤔) you can see how inflamed he must have been when he read that all June’s share of Osea Road Campsite was to go to SHEILA CAFFELL, and Sheila’s children would inherit it in the event of her death when they reached 18 years of age.
So, eventually the twins would have inherited 50% of Osea Road Campsite.
That’s just ONE motive why Jeremy Bamber wanted the twins dead.
There’s more too...
Do you have the complete wills?
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Do you have the complete wills?
Yes
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Looking at just one part of June’s will, which Jeremy admitted reading (how, I wonder?🤔) you can see how inflamed he must have been when he read that all June’s share of Osea Road Campsite was to go to SHEILA CAFFELL, and Sheila’s children would inherit it in the event of her death when they reached 18 years of age.
So, eventually the twins would have inherited 50% of Osea Road Campsite.
That’s just ONE motive why Jeremy Bamber wanted the twins dead.
There’s more too...
Jeremy could easily have read his parents' wills if they kept copies in the house.
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Jeremy could easily have read his parents' wills if they kept copies in the house.
I'd thought that was where he'd read them? My parents' Wills were at home, but there are boundaries which have to be respected and adhered to. I wouldn't have dreamed of taking a sneak preview.
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I'd thought that was where he'd read them? My parents' Wills were at home, but there are boundaries which have to be respected and adhered to. I wouldn't have dreamed of taking a sneak preview.
He did Jane, they were in the safe. It was a while before the murders when he read them and not sure if they were amended or changed in the interim.
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I'd thought that was where he'd read them? My parents' Wills were at home, but there are boundaries which have to be respected and adhered to. I wouldn't have dreamed of taking a sneak preview.
I would.
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I would.
Really? I wouldn't simply because a will is something related to after death and I wouldn't like to think about such things.
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Really? I wouldn't simply because a will is something related to after death and I wouldn't like to think about such things.
I already knew that my half brother would cop the lot. But I wouldn't have killed him for it. However, I just might have killed my stepmother for various other reasons included.
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I already knew that my half brother would cop the lot. But I wouldn't have killed him for it. However, I just might have killed my stepmother for various other reasons included.
Ah but you did the decent thing, you only thought about it - I am sure many of us have done that about someone (at one point or another).
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I'd thought that was where he'd read them? My parents' Wills were at home, but there are boundaries which have to be respected and adhered to. I wouldn't have dreamed of taking a sneak preview.
I agree. I knew where my parents kept their wills, but it would never have occurred to me to look at them!
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I agree. I knew where my parents kept their wills, but it would never have occurred to me to look at them!
The dynamics are different in every relationship. If I had come across my in-laws wills I wouldn't have read them out of respect, but I would have read my mother's. I found (and read) my adoption papers which was the weirdest thing. I learned my birth name and it was exactly the same as my best friend's name. That blew my mind. After a while I went back and looked again, and all the names had been blacked out. Although we never talked about it, she obviously realised I'd seen them.
I was never sure if my mother was telling me the truth. That leads to information gathering. Secrets encourage searchers.
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The dynamics are different in every relationship. If I had come across my in-laws wills I wouldn't have read them out of respect, but I would have read my mother's. I found (and read) my adoption papers which was the weirdest thing. I learned my birth name and it was exactly the same as my best friend's name. That blew my mind. After a while I went back and looked again, and all the names had been blacked out. Although we never talked about it, she obviously realised I'd seen them.
I was never sure if my mother was telling me the truth. That leads to information gathering. Secrets encourage searchers.
Did you know you were adopted prior to finding the papers?
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Yes
Can you post the entire wills? Thanks.
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Did you know you were adopted prior to finding the papers?
Yes, I was told the 'we chose you' story from a very early age. I was 2 years old when they got me.
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The dynamics are different in every relationship. If I had come across my in-laws wills I wouldn't have read them out of respect, but I would have read my mother's. I found (and read) my adoption papers which was the weirdest thing. I learned my birth name and it was exactly the same as my best friend's name. That blew my mind. After a while I went back and looked again, and all the names had been blacked out. Although we never talked about it, she obviously realised I'd seen them.
I was never sure if my mother was telling me the truth. That leads to information gathering. Secrets encourage searchers.
Information gathering, you can say that again! I remember when my parents went out on a Sat eve and started to leave my brother and me alone no sooner were they out the door I would be on the prowl information gathering! Weirdly I would get a buzz out of it even looking at the same info again which could be anything personal even bills!
When I found myself in the homes of others eg if I babysat for someone or a boyfriend the thought crossed my mind and I remember thinking a) I wasn't really interested b) I would be invading their privacy c) it wasn't morally right and d) I might get found out.
I don't ever recall looking through anyone else's stuff even my children's eg phones etc.
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Information gathering, you can say that again! I remember when my parents went out on a Sat eve and started to leave my brother and me alone no sooner were they out the door I would be on the prowl information gathering! Weirdly I would get a buzz out of it even looking at the same info again which could be anything personal even bills!
When I found myself in the homes of others eg if I babysat for someone or a boyfriend the thought crossed my mind and I remember thinking a) I wasn't really interested b) I would be invading their privacy c) it wasn't morally right and d) I might get found out.
I don't ever recall looking through anyone else's stuff even my children's eg phones etc.
Do you think it was because we felt they weren't completely honest with us?
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Do you think it was because we felt they weren't completely honest with us?
Yes probably.
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Do you think it was because we felt they weren't completely honest with us?
Yes probably.
As a fully paid up member of this select little club, YOU CAN SAY THAT AGAIN with no fear of contradiction. My mother told me that my real mother was a prostitute!!! My father said she'd was a actress -I rather liked that. I knew nothing -true- of my background until I made a request, I think, from the local council. My adopted mother had burned them because she didn't want me to know.
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As a fully paid up member of this select little club, YOU CAN SAY THAT AGAIN with no fear of contradiction. My mother told me that my real mother was a prostitute!!! My father said she'd was a actress -I rather liked that. I knew nothing -true- of my background until I made a request, I think, from the local council. My adopted mother had burned them because she didn't want me to know.
I feel for them now, as I don't think they had any idea how to deal with the situation really. I think we hurt them too, but we were just children. My husband's older brother had a different father than the others, and he was affected by that too. My father-in-law tolerated him. It's difficult being different.
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Yes, I was told the 'we chose you' story from a very early age. I was 2 years old when they got me.
Do you think it would be better if kids weren't told?
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I feel for them now, as I don't think they had any idea how to deal with the situation really. I think we hurt them too, but we were just children. My husband's older brother had a different father than the others, and he was affected by that too. My father-in-law tolerated him. It's difficult being different.
From this safe distance, as an adult, I can afford to be more generous. However, it remains an adult's responsibility to parent their child -to make their worlds safe and secure- it is NEVER the child's responsibility to 'parent' their parent. I agree that it's difficult being different. Perhaps, even more so if one is forced to remember, on a daily basis, that one IS different.
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Do you think it would be better if kids weren't told?
I think the problem is that someone will know. I was told the first day I was at boarding school -albeit, a day pupil- when I was 7. As it happened, I knew.
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Do you think it would be better if kids weren't told?
We had different birth certificates so it was always going to come out. That's how some people learned, in fact.
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Do you think it would be better if kids weren't told?
No. I don't think 'closed' adoptions are practised anymore. Afaik they're all 'open'.
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We had different birth certificates so it was always going to come out. That's how some people learned, in fact.
The moment I held my real birth certificate for the first time was the moment I started to feel 'real'.
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I'd thought that was where he'd read them? My parents' Wills were at home, but there are boundaries which have to be respected and adhered to. I wouldn't have dreamed of taking a sneak preview.
Yes, most people keep copies, usually in their safe or locked away in a desk.
Jeremy admitted to the police he’d read their wills; it’s in his witness statement.
Question is: what made him do that?........
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He did Jane, they were in the safe. It was a while before the murders when he read them and not sure if they were amended or changed in the interim.
June Bamber made her last will and testament on 13th June, 1979 and Nevill made his on 3rd August, 1979
They never altered or amended them, and they were the ones that were used for probate.
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Really? I wouldn't simply because a will is something related to after death and I wouldn't like to think about such things.
Nor me!
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June Bamber made her last will and testament on 13th June, 1979 and Nevill made his on 3rd August, 1979
They never altered or amended them, and they were the ones that were used for probate.
I assume you sent away for copies of the wills, I Spy ??
I help people with family history research, and therefore, I know that wills are public documents, able to be accessed by anybody (for a fee). When I reported this on another forum, people were appalled. Just as a matter of interest, how did you feel about accessing the Bambers' wills? (not condemning you in any way; I have accessed wills for people numerous times!!).
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I assume you sent away for copies of the wills, I Spy ??
I help people with family history research, and therefore, I know that wills are public documents, able to be accessed by anybody (for a fee). When I reported this on another forum, people were appalled. Just as a matter of interest, how did you feel about accessing the Bambers' wills? (not condemning you in any way; I have accessed wills for people numerous times!!).
The type face looks similar to case related docs.
What source does CAL use for the wills?
If I wanted to read them I wouldn't hesitate to access them as they're public records but it isn't really an aspect of the case that interests me.
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June Bamber made her last will and testament on 13th June, 1979 and Nevill made his on 3rd August, 1979
They never altered or amended them, and they were the ones that were used for probate.
The twins were born on 22nd June 1979 so June made her will just before they were born and NB shortly after they were born.
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June Bamber made her last will and testament on 13th June, 1979 and Nevill made his on 3rd August, 1979
They never altered or amended them, and they were the ones that were used for probate.
I'm interested in the clause NB inserted in his will that prevented JB from inheriting the farm unless he was committed to farming at the time of NBs death.
I've always thought that JB had only knuckled down on the farm around 18 months before the murders which would coincide with JMs account of when he started talking about killing them all.
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I'm interested in the clause NB inserted in his will that prevented JB from inheriting the farm unless he was committed to farming at the time of NBs death.
I've always thought that JB had only knuckled down on the farm around 18 months before the murders which would coincide with JMs account of when he started talking about killing them all.
Which farm are you referring to?
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Which farm are you referring to?
Was there or was there not a clause in NBs will that would have prevented JB from inheriting NBs assets?
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Was there or was there not a clause in NBs will that would have prevented JB from inheriting NBs assets?
Of which White House Farm was not one. The Bambers were tenants.
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Of which White House Farm was not one. The Bambers were tenants.
But they owned the business.
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Of which White House Farm was not one. The Bambers were tenants.
If pathetic pedantry is all you and Holly really have then please do not respond to my comments.
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Any Member may reply to whatever Comment they please. Or not.
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If pathetic pedantry is all you and Holly really have then please do not respond to my comments.
I do wish people would realise that inattention to detail and careless posts can create misunderstandings and myths. Accuracy ensures that people are debating the actual facts rather than inaccurate facts.
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Of which White House Farm was not one. The Bambers were tenants.
I do wish people would realise that inattention to detail and careless posts can create misunderstandings and myths. Accuracy ensures that people are debating the actual facts rather than inaccurate facts.
G-Unit, forgive the observation, but it appears that you were trying to side step an answer by pointing out a perceived inaccuracy on the part of a poster. I don't imagine I'm the only one here who knows perfectly well that a business owned by one party is entirely separate from the building, owned by another party, which houses it.
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I do wish people would realise that inattention to detail and careless posts can create misunderstandings and myths. Accuracy ensures that people are debating the actual facts rather than inaccurate facts.
So, "was there or was there not a clause in NBs will that would have prevented JB from inheriting NBs assets?"
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You may be happy to accept 'the farm' as a description of Nevill Bamber's assets, I'm not. His assets were much more varied than the phrase suggests.
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You may be happy to accept 'the farm' as a description of Nevill Bamber's assets, I'm not. His assets were much more varied than the phrase suggests.
Please don't insult my intelligence, G-Unit. I'm fully aware of the point you're using to cover up that you won't give a straight answer to "Was there or was there not a clause in NB's Will that would have prevented JB from inheriting Nevill's assets". Whether or not you believe his "assets" to be greater than the farm -the business- is of no moment unless there is a codicil providing for him, with other "assets" in the event of him not being considered suitable to take on the farm -the business.
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Please don't insult my intelligence, G-Unit. I'm fully aware of the point you're using to cover up that you won't give a straight answer to "Was there or was there not a clause in NB's Will that would have prevented JB from inheriting Nevill's assets". Whether or not you believe his "assets" to be greater than the farm -the business- is of no moment unless there is a codicil providing for him, with other "assets" in the event of him not being considered suitable to take on the farm -the business.
Please don't insult my intelligence April. I'm pretty sure that you know the answer to your question, but even if you don't, it's not my job to answer questions unless I choose to do so.
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Please don't insult my intelligence April. I'm pretty sure that you know the answer to your question, but even if you don't, it's not my job to answer questions unless I choose to do so.
Based on what I know the Will to have said, of course I know the answer. It's not my responsibility if you choose not to accept it. As it was your own choice to post an answer, you could at least have made it an accurate one after having complained about others' INaccurate answers.
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Based on what I know the Will to have said, of course I know the answer. It's not my responsibility if you choose not to accept it. As it was your own choice to post an answer, you could at least have made it an accurate one after having complained about others' INaccurate answers.
What did I post which was inaccurate?
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Which farm are you referring to?
Vaulty Manor Farm?
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Just for the sake of clarity Nevill Bamber's estate, according to Basil Cock, included the following properties;
Boutree Cottage.
A half share in Charity Farm owned jointly with his wife.
A share in Clifton House in Guilford, inherited from his mother.
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Vaulty Manor Farm?
But I don't think the Bambers owned VMF did they?
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Just for the sake of clarity Nevill Bamber's estate, according to Basil Cock, included the following properties;
Boutree Cottage.
A half share in Charity Farm owned jointly with his wife.
A share in Clifton House in Guilford, inherited from his mother.
What about the land (48 acres I think) at Little Renters? Was this the land purchased for JB for him to farm?
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What about the land (48 acres I think) at Little Renters? Was this the land purchased for JB for him to farm?
According to CAL that's what Nevill told Anthony Pargeter. [p144 Kindle]. She doesn't give a cite, however. The Eatons didn't farm it after Nevill bought it afaik, and I don't think they now own any of that farm.
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According to CAL that's what Nevill told Anthony Pargeter. [p144 Kindle]. She doesn't give a cite, however. The Eatons didn't farm it after Nevill bought it afaik, and I don't think they now own any of that farm.
Chartered surveyor, George Nicholls, refers to NB, June and JB purchasing 48 acres at Little Totham and it seems Little Renters farm is based in Little Totham. It seems an underground heating firm is run from the farm. Who owns the land?!
https://terratherma.co.uk/
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Chartered surveyor, George Nicholls, refers to NB, June and JB purchasing 48 acres at Little Totham and it seems Little Renters farm is based in Little Totham. It seems an underground heating firm is run from the farm. Who owns the land?!
https://terratherma.co.uk/
Attached:
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Attached:
Perhaps also begs the question if NB (and/or June) were unhappy with JB in any way why were they entering into a joint enterprise to purchase land?
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Attached:
And it seems Vaulty Farm was tenanted to NB
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Chartered surveyor, George Nicholls, refers to NB, June and JB purchasing 48 acres at Little Totham and it seems Little Renters farm is based in Little Totham. It seems an underground heating firm is run from the farm. Who owns the land?!
https://terratherma.co.uk/
According to the Land Registry the Farm still isn't a cohesive whole. It's in two parts and the parts are owned by;
MARGARET MANN and ALICE SARAH MANN Administrator of
Roger Mann deceased
MARGARET MANN, ALICE SARAH MANN and ROBERT PETER MANN of
Little Renters Farm, Beckingham Street, Little Totham,
Maldon Essex CM9 8LF.
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Perhaps also begs the question if NB (and/or June) were unhappy with JB in any way why were they entering into a joint enterprise to purchase land?
They alternated between 'tough love' and carrot dangling?
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And it seems Vaulty Farm was tenanted to NB
Bamber & Speakman was the original company. It managed land located at Vaulty, Charity, White House, Carbonells, Burnt Ash and Gardener's Farms.
After June's father died N & J Bamber was formed and continued to manage all the above except Carbonells and Burnt Ash Farms, where Robert and Sheila Boutflour took over.
According to CAL N & J Bamber Ltd managed 750 acres of land, so after the purchase of the 88 acres they were managing almost 800 acres. [Kindle p101]
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They alternated between 'tough love' and carrot dangling?
All parents do that, I guess the more carrots the more dangling @)(++(*
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All parents do that, I guess the more carrots the more dangling @)(++(*
That's about the size of it.
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We had different birth certificates so it was always going to come out. That's how some people learned, in fact.
Birth certificates of children who’ve been adopted don’t show that they have been.
The parents obtain a new birth certificate for their adopted child, albeit a short version which many people have, regardless, and it shows no evidence that they were adopted.
When or if a child discovers they’ve been adopted they can of course trace their original certificate.
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The type face looks similar to case related docs.
What source does CAL use for the wills?
If I wanted to read them I wouldn't hesitate to access them as they're public records but it isn't really an aspect of the case that interests me.
Well why did you ask me for them if they don’t interest you?
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I'm interested in the clause NB inserted in his will that prevented JB from inheriting the farm unless he was committed to farming at the time of NBs death.
I've always thought that JB had only knuckled down on the farm around 18 months before the murders which would coincide with JMs account of when he started talking about killing them all.
GREAT point CS!!
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Just for the sake of clarity Nevill Bamber's estate, according to Basil Cock, included the following properties;
Boutree Cottage.
A half share in Charity Farm owned jointly with his wife.
A share in Clifton House in Guilford, inherited from his mother.
Nevill owned much more than that.
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But I don't think the Bambers owned VMF did they?
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Birth certificates of children who’ve been adopted don’t show that they have been.
The parents obtain a new birth certificate for their adopted child, albeit a short version which many people have, regardless, and it shows no evidence that they were adopted.
When or if a child discovers they’ve been adopted they can of course trace their original certificate.
For certain purposes people need their full certificate. I remember mine saying Adoption Certificate, and a man on TV said he only found out he was adopted when he had to take his birth certificate into school.
It's only since 1975 that adopted people have been allowed to know who their birth parents were.
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Nevill owned much more than that.
If you read my post again, I was discussing properties. Did he own more properties?
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Well why did you ask me for them if they don’t interest you?
I said they don't really interest me. If someone here produced them I would read them but I'm not motivated enough to go out of my way to seek them out.
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I said they don't really interest me. If someone here produced them I would read them but I'm not motivated enough to go out of my way to seek them out.
Well you’re interested enough to ask me to post them up, when usually the only time you reply to me is to issue me warnings...
What makes you think I’d be motivated enough to seek them out? You have no idea who I am, who I know, or what I know.
You’re making assumptions again, Holly
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Well you’re interested enough to ask me to post them up, when usually the only time you reply to me is to issue me warnings...
What makes you think I’d be motivated enough to seek them out? You have no idea who I am, who I know, or what I know.
You’re making assumptions again, Holly
I don't believe I've made any assumptions?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11474.msg589582#msg589582
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I don't believe I've made any assumptions?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11474.msg589582#msg589582
Not sure why you’ve put that link up?
You asked me to put the wills up — I already saw that.
But below I’ve copied your post where you then said — after asking me to post the wills up — that they don’t really interest you. I find that surprising: the man you hate to believe is guilty of murdering all hs family read those wills, and as you’re desperately trying to find the slightest detail that may suggest he didn’t kill them, id have thought the wills would be hugely significant in his motive...
You also implied I went out of my way to see the wills; you know you were implying that, and I know you were. Hence me telling you that you make assumptions...
Re: June and Nevill Bamber’s wills & Jeremy Bamber’s Motive to Kill the Twins
« Reply #69 on: Today at 09:34:17 AM »
QuoteModify
Quote from: Holly Goodhead on Today at 09:12:44 AM
I said they don't really interest me. If someone here produced them I would read them but I'm not motivated enough to go out of my way to seek them out.
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Not sure why you’ve put that link up?
You asked me to put the wills up — I already saw that.
But below I’ve copied your post where you then said — after asking me to post the wills up — that they don’t really interest you. I find that surprising: the man you hate to believe is guilty of murdering all hs family read those wills, and as you’re desperately trying to find the slightest detail that may suggest he didn’t kill them, id have thought the wills would be hugely significant in his motive...
You also implied I went out of my way to see the wills; you know you were implying that, and I know you were. Hence me telling you that you make assumptions...
Re: June and Nevill Bamber’s wills & Jeremy Bamber’s Motive to Kill the Twins
« Reply #69 on: Today at 09:34:17 AM »
QuoteModify
Quote from: Holly Goodhead on Today at 09:12:44 AM
I said they don't really interest me. If someone here produced them I would read them but I'm not motivated enough to go out of my way to seek them out.
8((()*/