UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on May 24, 2020, 04:29:44 PM
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It has always been my understanding that medication used to treat schizophrenia is not a total safeguard against violence and a study seems to suggest this is the case.
Also it isn't possible to rule out comorbidity ie that the violence originated from some cause other than the schizophrenia.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080701083527.htm
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All bases covered, by the sound of it.
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All bases covered, by the sound of it.
Caro said the other day she had been unable to find any evidence of violence where schizophrenics were taking their meds.
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Caro said the other day she had been able to find any evidence of violence where schizophrenics were taking their meds.
Please produce a scintilla of evidence that Sheila Cassell was violent.
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Please produce a scintilla of evidence that Sheila Cassell was violent.
I explained the reason for starting the thread above but now you've asked:
She, had to her credit, kicked up a good fight and called him a dirty old man who ought to know better than try it on with a girl young enough to be his daughter.
What really amazed me was that she was more angry than frightened.
Page 9 CC's book.
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There were even times we could have killed each other; violence was just below the surface.
CC's book, page 10.
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This aggravated the situation and Sheila became even more violent and abusive.
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I explained the reason for starting the thread above but now you've asked:
She, had to her credit, kicked up a good fight and called him a dirty old man who ought to know better than try it on with a girl young enough to be his daughter.
What really amazed me was that she was more angry than frightened.
Page 9 CC's book.
Dissecting his words, as you do!!! it's not clear exactly what he means by "kicked up a good fight" -It's very possible that Sheila didn't make it clear, either- and his amazement that "she was more angry than frightened". She may well, and perfectly understandably, have been terrified but put on a brave face.
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This aggravated the situation and Sheila became even more violent and abusive.
There were even times we could have killed each other; violence was just below the surface.
CC's book, page 10.
These are Colin's words and his interpretation of the situations. Colin appears to have been one of thes men who simply won't discuss/argue/talk when there's a dispute. There little more than a nonparticipating man which is guaranteed to irritate a woman. If "violence was just below the surface" might it have been that he was projecting his own?
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Dissecting his words, as you do!!! it's not clear exactly what he means by "kicked up a good fight" -It's very possible that Sheila didn't make it clear, either- and his amazement that "she was more angry than frightened". She may well, and perfectly understandably, have been terrified but put on a brave face.
No dissecting the words at all; they're simply CC's words.
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These are Colin's words and his interpretation of the situations. Colin appears to have been one of thes men who simply won't discuss/argue/talk when there's a dispute. There little more than a nonparticipating man which is guaranteed to irritate a woman. If "violence was just below the surface" might it have been that he was projecting his own?
They're not just CC's words. The words at the top are from FE.
Two men featured in SC's life: CC and FE and both describe her as violent.
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They're not just CC's words. The words at the top are from FE.
Two men featured in SC's life: CC and FE and both describe her as violent.
How did this violence manifest itself? Hitting, kicking, slapping, beating with weapons, what?
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They're not just CC's words. The words at the top are from FE.
Two men featured in SC's life: CC and FE and both describe her as violent.
Mmm. I recall Freddy saying that he feared for his life, but not only did he live to tell his tale, she didn't lay a finger on him. Hit herself, but didn't touch him.
As far as Colin is concerned, I believe I recall him saying that she did once hit him............in response to him hitting her.
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I explained the reason for starting the thread above but now you've asked:
She, had to her credit, kicked up a good fight and called him a dirty old man who ought to know better than try it on with a girl young enough to be his daughter.
What really amazed me was that she was more angry than frightened.
Page 9 CC's book.
I did read your transparent opening post .
Even Bamber described Sheila Cappell as subdued on the night he murdered her children and their parents.
Snip
Whilst I was there Sheila did not say anything, make any objections or agreements. She just appeared vacant.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5632.msg200222#msg200222
Sheila who was on powerful medication for schizophrenia was Bamber's chosen scapegoat for his hideous crime.
I think your efforts to perpetuate his calumny on his behalf is totally weird.
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These are Colin's words and his interpretation of the situations. Colin appears to have been one of thes men who simply won't discuss/argue/talk when there's a dispute. There little more than a nonparticipating man which is guaranteed to irritate a woman. If "violence was just below the surface" might it have been that he was projecting his own?
Absolutely, nothing worse than someone who just won't fight with you. My husband had the sweetest temper when we first got married until I broke it 👿 On one occasion he ended up with a dish sitting on top of his head and the remains of a child's meal running down his face just because he was so placid and taking things in his stride.
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It has always been my understanding that medication used to treat schizophrenia is not a total safeguard against violence and a study seems to suggest this is the case.
Also it isn't possible to rule out comorbidity ie that the violence originated from some cause other than the schizophrenia.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080701083527.htm
Are you kidding me? @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
I don't even know where to start with this one but we'll start with the purpose of the study. It was to find out if patients who were renowned for violent behaviour 'in spite' of being schizophrenia were still violent after taking meds. Sheila wasn't in this category for starters and do you see haloperidol listed in the drugs that were used? There are no details of how the study was carried out and it may be that the group with a history of violence were less likely to take their medication given that one of the recommendations was "the need for interventions to help patients stay engaged in treatment."
This doesn't fulfill what I asked, I asked for a case of murder to to psychosis where the perpetrator was taking their medication regularly.
Certainly no cigar here!
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It has always been my understanding that medication used to treat schizophrenia is not a total safeguard against violence and a study seems to suggest this is the case.
Also it isn't possible to rule out comorbidity ie that the violence originated from some cause other than the schizophrenia.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080701083527.htm
Your understanding is wrong
Psychiatrists say schizophrenics are never violent when medicated, and in fact, violence isn’t a symptom of schizophrenia
It’s extremely rare
Indeed, schizophrenics are more at risk of being killed themselves due to taking risks and getting attacked
Yes, UNTREATED they may have outbursts when they’re deluded, but it’s usually always verbal and if they do harm anyone it’s themselves
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I explained the reason for starting the thread above but now you've asked:
She, had to her credit, kicked up a good fight and called him a dirty old man who ought to know better than try it on with a girl young enough to be his daughter.
What really amazed me was that she was more angry than frightened.
Page 9 CC's book.
She was a teenage schoolgirl when that happened!
The dirty old man obviously realised she was vulnerable and naive, and when he he tried to get hold of her she did what ANY girl would do — fight him off.
What would you have done, Holly?
Giggled?
Asked him all nicely to please stop?
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There were even times we could have killed each other; violence was just below the surface.
CC's book, page 10.
Colin was probably talking about their arguments that arose from their passion for each other
Whatever, Sheila never ONCE attacked him — nor he her
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This aggravated the situation and Sheila became even more violent and abusive.
That was just ONE occasion — when she wasn’t on her medication
When he mentioned “violence” he never said Sheila struck anyone or hurt anyone — she was just hysterical, shouting, hurting herself
Did he say she got a knife and went to attack him? No.
And IF Sheila became deluded and unable to think clearly when she had a rare attack UNMEDICATED, how could she have been so diligent, precise, proficient, neat, tidy and careful had she shot dead her sons and parents?
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That was just ONE occasion — when she wasn’t on her medication
When he mentioned “violence” he never said Sheila struck anyone or hurt anyone — she was just hysterical, shouting, hurting herself
Did he say she got a knife and went to attack him? No.
And IF Sheila became deluded and unable to think clearly when she had a rare attack UNMEDICATED, how could she have been so diligent, precise, proficient, neat, tidy and careful had she shot dead her sons and parents?
There is often a first time for everything. Having had the discussion about the family keen to have her children fostered out, and Colin about to take her kids overseas, how do we know she wasn't feeling like she was about to lose the kids.
Plus Jeremy preparing the gun for her with a magazine full of hollow nose bullets. Maybe the opportunity was just too great to miss out on.
10 bullets were more than what was needed. The problem came when a total of 8 bullets were used in the children, she then had only 1 or 2 left for her suicide, but to top that off the first shot was a miss.
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There is often a first time for everything. Having had the discussion about the family keen to have her children fostered out, and Colin about to take her kids overseas, how do we know she wasn't feeling like she was about to lose the kids.
Plus Jeremy preparing the gun for her with a magazine full of hollow nose bullets. Maybe the opportunity was just too great to miss out on.
10 bullets were more than what was needed. The problem came when a total of 8 bullets were used in the children, she then had only 1 or 2 left for her suicide, but to top that off the first shot was a miss.
Colin was taking the children on holiday to visit their aunt just much the same as Sheila was doing taking them on holiday to visit their grandparents.
There was absolutely no question that the Caffell twins were going to be removed from either parent's care and only the word of their murderer to suggest such a discussion ever took place.
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Colin was taking the children on holiday to visit their aunt just much the same as Sheila was doing taking them on holiday to visit their grandparents.
There was absolutely no question that the Caffell twins were going to be removed from either parent's care and only the word of their murderer to suggest such a discussion ever took place.
Was it not Colin who brought Sheila and the twins boys to WHF, so he is fully aware of where they were.
Once Colin got to Norway there would be no certainty they would return.
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There is often a first time for everything. Having had the discussion about the family keen to have her children fostered out, and Colin about to take her kids overseas, how do we know she wasn't feeling like she was about to lose the kids.
Plus Jeremy preparing the gun for her with a magazine full of hollow nose bullets. Maybe the opportunity was just too great to miss out on.
10 bullets were more than what was needed. The problem came when a total of 8 bullets were used in the children, she then had only 1 or 2 left for her suicide, but to top that off the first shot was a miss.
There's no proof that a conversation happened about her children being fostered. It's a convenient part of Jeremy's "build up to psychosis" scenario, though.
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Was it not Colin who brought Sheila and the twins boys to WHF, so he is fully aware of where they were.
Once Colin got to Norway there would be no certainty they would return.
Colin's work and his family home remained in England why would Colin abandon that and illegally kidnapping his sons at risk of having them taken from him permanently (on reading that I realise how ironic it is). The twins were going on holiday - I don't know if this was a regular occurrence but I rather suspect it was, just as they were no strangers to the farm.
You really seem to have a bee in your bonnet regarding Colin who in my opinion is by far the most wronged surviving victim in this case. I cannot imagine how he coped with the death of his sons and the cruel manner of it.
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Colin's work and his family home remained in England why would Colin abandon that and illegally kidnapping his sons at risk of having them taken from him permanently (on reading that I realise how ironic it is). The twins were going on holiday - I don't know if this was a regular occurrence but I rather suspect it was, just as they were no strangers to the farm.
You really seem to have a bee in your bonnet regarding Colin who in my opinion is by far the most wronged surviving victim in this case. I cannot imagine how he coped with the death of his sons and the cruel manner of it.
His book will help answer your last sentence. I recommend it, BTW !
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Colin's work and his family home remained in England why would Colin abandon that and illegally kidnapping his sons at risk of having them taken from him permanently (on reading that I realise how ironic it is). The twins were going on holiday - I don't know if this was a regular occurrence but I rather suspect it was, just as they were no strangers to the farm.
You really seem to have a bee in your bonnet regarding Colin who in my opinion is by far the most wronged surviving victim in this case. I cannot imagine how he coped with the death of his sons and the cruel manner of it.
Colin was taking the twins to Norway for two weeks to say with hs sister who lived out there.
Sheila knew about it and was happy for them to have a holiday.
I can’t reply to Robbitybob until he’s read up on the case.
Off to sunbathe soon and top up my vitamin D ....leave you all in peace 😊
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His book will help answer your last sentence. I recommend it, BTW !
Thank you, I wasn't asking a question though. I was making a statement; perhaps I phrased it badly..
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"All people are bad and deserve to be killed" said Sheila Caffell for no reason whatsoever according to Barbara Wilson. [CAL p133 kindle]
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"All people are bad and deserve to be killed" said Sheila Caffell for no reason whatsoever according to Barbara Wilson. [CAL p133 kindle]
Following the murders, Wilson spoke to journalists about Bamber’s relationship with his parents.
She also gave approximately 14 statements to the police in 1985 following the killings.
In her pre-trial witness statements, Wilson gave no incriminating evidence against Bamber, nor did she criticise his character.
According to court documents, During the 1986 Dickinson Enquiry one month after Bamber’s trial and conviction, Wilson was asked about Jeremy once again.
She described him as “very pleasant” and a “likeable jovial fellow.”
She added: “ probably got on better with him than my own son.”
Wilson also said Bamber had not said anything “nasty” about his family and was never violent towards them.
She explained the only criticisms he made were about the farm itself.
https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1232846/White-House-Farm-who-is-Barbara-Wilson-secretary-Jeremy-Bamber-case
We know Bamber knew how to charm the ladies 🙂
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Following the murders, Wilson spoke to journalists about Bamber’s relationship with his parents.
She also gave approximately 14 statements to the police in 1985 following the killings.
In her pre-trial witness statements, Wilson gave no incriminating evidence against Bamber, nor did she criticise his character.
According to court documents, During the 1986 Dickinson Enquiry one month after Bamber’s trial and conviction, Wilson was asked about Jeremy once again.
She described him as “very pleasant” and a “likeable jovial fellow.”
She added: “ probably got on better with him than my own son.”
Wilson also said Bamber had not said anything “nasty” about his family and was never violent towards them.
She explained the only criticisms he made were about the farm itself.
https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1232846/White-House-Farm-who-is-Barbara-Wilson-secretary-Jeremy-Bamber-case
Reads like she was still going through the stages of denial when she made her statements and gave interviews
It’s claimed there are,
‘three forms of denial. Simple denial is when the painful fact is denied altogether. Minimisational denial is when the painful fact is admitted but its seriousness is downplayed. Transference denial is when the painful fact is admitted, the seriousness also admitted, but one's moral responsibility in the situation involving the painful fact is downplayed.
When a person is in denial, they engage in distractive or escapist strategies to reduce stress and help them cope.
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/09/29/the_odd_body_denial/
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Denial following a relationship with a psychopathic individual can take time and is dependent on many factors