UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on June 21, 2020, 11:09:14 PM
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Is it possible to work out the chain of command in the Bamber inquiry.
If Taff Jones was present for only 15 minutes who was the lead detective there before and after Taff arrives and leaves?
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Is it possible to work out the chain of command in the Bamber inquiry.
If Taff Jones was present for only 15 minutes who was the lead detective there before and after Taff arrives and leaves?
Chief Sup Harris decided it was murder/suicide. He was at soc long before DCI Jones.
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Chief Sup Harris decided it was murder/suicide. He was at soc long before DCI Jones.
Based on instinct? Was this done on first impressions or did it take many hours of crime scene investigations.
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Based on instinct? Was this done on first impressions or did it take many hours of crime scene investigations.
Many years of experience of presiding over murder investigations.
I guess Chief Sup Harris had a history of calling it right otherwise he wouldn't have reached such a rank?
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Many years of experience of presiding over murder investigations.
I guess Chief Sup Harris had a history of calling it right otherwise he wouldn't have reached such a rank?
They crucified the last guy who was perfect, I'm sure he made mistakes along the way,not least in this case.
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They crucified the last guy who was perfect, I'm sure he made mistakes along the way, not least in this case.
I'm left wondering what and who you are talking about.
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They crucified the last guy who was perfect, I'm sure he made mistakes along the way,not least in this case.
I don't understand Barrier, which last guy are you referring to?
In this case the hierarchy assessed soc as murder/suicide. No one contradicted this theory for over a month other than DS Jones who subsequently was single handedly involved with the evidence that convicted JB: silencer and JM's testimony.
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I don't understand Barrier, which last guy are you referring to?
In this case the hierarchy assessed soc as murder/suicide. No one contradicted this theory for over a month other than DS Jones who subsequently was single handedly involved with the evidence that convicted JB: silencer and JM's testimony.
You've never heard of "the" Crucifixion?
Yet 10 out 12 of Bambers peers thought it was true, go figure.
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I don't understand Barrier, which last guy are you referring to?
In this case the hierarchy assessed soc as murder/suicide. No one contradicted this theory for over a month other than DS Jones who subsequently was single handedly involved with the evidence that convicted JB: silencer and JM's testimony.
Yes, it's a given that "no one contradicted this theory for over a month other than DS Jones.............", but perhaps DS Jones didn't have Jeremy's story ringing in his ears and so wasn't prevented from looking any deeper.
I'm told that police wouldn't have put any reliance on Jeremy's words. If that's so, why did they wait the best part of three hours before breaking in? I wonder how many times, during the early investigation, the words were uttered "The son/Jeremy said/told us..........."? Police, like the rest of us, learn through listening. For the first important hours, there was only Jeremy to listen to.
It certainly isn't fact that the whole team were behind Taff Jones. The whole team followed orders, which is rather different. Jeremy became Taff Jones' bible, and I'll hazard a guess that Taff Jones probably felt more than a little discomforted by the turnaround because he wasn't the type to hold his hands up to possible errors on his own part. STAN Jones, by comparison, didn't simply dismiss the relatives concerns, perhaps it was because he was too big a man to take it as a personal insult? At the very least,he saw what they said as being a possible alternative.
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You've never heard of "the" Crucifixion?
Yet 10 out 12 of Bambers peers thought it was true, go figure.
Gottcha 8((()*/ I'm not very cryptic.
But if jurors were nudged along with evidence which might not have been all it seemed its hardly surprising 10/12 found in favour of guilt.
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Chief Sup Harris decided it was murder/suicide. He was at soc long before DCI Jones.
Blood Relations: The Definitive Account of Jeremy Bamber and the White House ...
By Roger Wilkes
Writes about Chief Supt Harris. and more.
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Yes, it's a given that "no one contradicted this theory for over a month other than DS Jones.............", but perhaps DS Jones had Jeremy's story ringing in his ears and it prevented him from looking any deeper.
I'm told that police wouldn't have put any reliance on Jeremy's words. If that's so, why did they wait the best part of three hours before breaking in? I wonder how many times, during the early investigation, the words were uttered "The son/Jeremy said/told us..........."? Police, like the rest of us, learn through listening. For the first important hours, there was only Jeremy to listen to.
It certainly isn't fact that the whole team were behind DS Jones. The whole team followed orders, which is rather different. Jeremy became DS Jones' bible, and I'll hazard a guess that DS Jones probably felt more than a little discomforted by the turnaround because he wasn't the type to hold his hands up to possible errors on his own part. STAN Jones, by comparison, didn't simply dismiss the relatives concerns, perhaps it was because he was too big a man to take it as a personal insult? At the very least,he saw what they said as being a possible alternative.
Where you refer to DS Jones I assume you mean DCI Jones?
I think the delay in entering was partly down to waiting for daylight. Although at that time of the year its light long before 7.30 am.
I don't buy into the police being over conditioned by what JB told then to the extent their minds were closed. If that was the case why did soc officers collect and document numerous exhibits for forensic examination and take hundreds of soc images?
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Where you refer to DS Jones I assume you mean DCI Jones?
I think the delay in entering was partly down to waiting for daylight. Although at that time of the year its light long before 7.30 am.
I don't buy into the police being over conditioned by what JB told then to the extent their minds were closed. If that was the case why did soc officers collect and document numerous exhibits for forensic examination and take hundreds of soc images?
Where are these "hundreds of soc images"?
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Blood Relations: The Definitive Account of Jeremy Bamber and the White House ...
By Roger Wilkes
Writes about Chief Supt Harris. and more.
It's a long while since I read the book, please remind me if you have it.
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Where are these "hundreds of soc images"?
With JB/CT.
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Chief Sup Harris decided it was murder/suicide. He was at soc long before DCI Jones.
So, do you think Chief Sup Harris influenced Taff Jones? Were they at SOC at the same time?
I find it very difficult to believe that the police and firearms people waited so long to go in merely because they were influenced by what Jeremy said. I can't believe that's what "first responders" do in an emergency !!
I also find it very difficult to believe that TWO senior police officers could have got things so wrong.
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Where you refer to DS Jones I assume you mean DCI Jones?
I think the delay in entering was partly down to waiting for daylight. Although at that time of the year its light long before 7.30 am.
I don't buy into the police being over conditioned by what JB told then to the extent their minds were closed. If that was the case why did soc officers collect and document numerous exhibits for forensic examination and take hundreds of soc images?
Yes, Holly. In my head, they remain Welsh Jones and Other Jones!!!
Okay. For starters, I think it would have been done ENTIRELY differently had Jeremy not been present. Whatever is said to the contrary, their actions were largely informed by Jeremy. None of them wanted to be dead heroes. Of course they'd have listened to him. I'm willing to bet they'd have gone in immediately after getting no response to their calls, but whilst someone was standing beside them talking about the alleged shooter's prowess with firearms and her two little boys, they remained hesitant. Not that I think the eventual outcome would have been any different.
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Yes, Holly. In my head, they remain Welsh Jones and Other Jones!!!
Okay. For starters, I think it would have been done ENTIRELY differently had Jeremy not been present. Whatever is said to the contrary, their actions were largely informed by Jeremy. None of them wanted to be dead heroes. Of course they'd have listened to him. I'm willing to bet they'd have gone in immediately after getting no response to their calls, but whilst someone was standing beside them talking about the alleged shooter's prowess with firearms and her two little boys, they remained hesitant. Not that I think the eventual outcome would have been any different.
They had no reason to be suspicious of JB's actions/words at the time,so its logical to listen to him.
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Chief Sup Harris decided it was murder/suicide. He was at soc long before DCI Jones.
No, in the VERY early stages he ASSUMED it was murder/suicide going by what Jeremy had said; not knowing Jeremy was a pathological liar & psychopath; and not having the nous to realise the rifle had been staged in Sheila’s lap to make it appear she’d committed suicide.
He may have been a fairly intelligent policeman in some ways, but he certainly didn’t use his grey matter on that day!
There were red flags all over the place; none of which he noticed — until much later when it had to pointed out to him and that’s when he realised he’d made a HUGE mistake.
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It's a long while since I read the book, please remind me if you have it.
There are some chapters online (Google books) but I crashed as I was reading it. I haven't read enough of it to comment to any degree.
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Where you refer to DS Jones I assume you mean DCI Jones?
I think the delay in entering was partly down to waiting for daylight. Although at that time of the year its light long before 7.30 am.
I don't buy into the police being over conditioned by what JB told then to the extent their minds were closed. If that was the case why did soc officers collect and document numerous exhibits for forensic examination and take hundreds of soc images?
Police have to take all evidence for forensics even if it’s a straightforward suicide of one person!
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No, in the VERY early stages he ASSUMED it was murder/suicide going by what Jeremy had said; not knowing Jeremy was a pathological liar & psychopath; and not having the nous to realise the rifle had been staged in Sheila’s lap to make it appear she’d committed suicide.
He may have been a fairly intelligent policeman in some ways, but he certainly didn’t use his grey matter on that day!
There were red flags all over the place; none of which he noticed — until much later when it had to pointed out to him and that’s when he realised he’d made a HUGE mistake.
Did he admit to it?
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Police have to take all evidence for forensics even if it’s a straightforward suicide of one person!
Can you provide a cite that confirms that? I was under the impression the number of samples taken in a suicide case would be limited.
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Did he admit to it?
He died in an accident, didn't he.
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Did he admit to it?
Yes.
After it emerged that Jeremy Bamber was the suspect all the police had a board meeting arranged by Taff Jones. He asked them all to say who they thought had done it: Jeremy or Sheila.
Every single officer, Harris included, said Jeremy.
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Can you provide a cite that confirms that? I was under the impression the number of samples taken in a suicide case would be limited.
You’ll have to Google it
I’ve a busy day ahead
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No, in the VERY early stages he ASSUMED it was murder/suicide going by what Jeremy had said; not knowing Jeremy was a pathological liar & psychopath; and not having the nous to realise the rifle had been staged in Sheila’s lap to make it appear she’d committed suicide.
He may have been a fairly intelligent policeman in some ways, but he certainly didn’t use his grey matter on that day!
There were red flags all over the place; none of which he noticed — until much later when it had to pointed out to him and that’s when he realised he’d made a HUGE mistake.
Chief Sup Harris saw the authentic soc ie SC's head raised against the bedside cabinet and everthing else in situ ie bible and rifle. The soc images represent the soc after it had been interfered with not by JB but those at soc.
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Chief Sup Harris saw the authentic soc ie SC's head raised against the bedside cabinet and everthing else in situ ie bible and rifle. The soc images represent the soc after it had been interfered with not by JB but those at soc.
You can't prove that either. If her head was up how could the bullet end up in her brain?
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Yes.
After it emerged that Jeremy Bamber was the suspect all the police had a board meeting arranged by Taff Jones. He asked them all to say who they thought had done it: Jeremy or Sheila.
Every single officer, Harris included, said Jeremy.
That's how it was on the TV series!
I suspect there was at least a little dramatic effect there,to be honest.
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So, do you think Chief Sup Harris influenced Taff Jones? Were they at SOC at the same time?
I find it very difficult to believe that the police and firearms people waited so long to go in merely because they were influenced by what Jeremy said. I can't believe that's what "first responders" do in an emergency !!
I also find it very difficult to believe that TWO senior police officers could have got things so wrong.
All officers at soc incl the police surgeon were signed up to murder/suicide. DS Jones was the only early dissenter but he was never a rising star. He retired at DS rank.
First respondents arrived circa 4 am. They then had to call firearms and get authorisation for such an operation and wait until all these people arrived. Upon arrival they sought JB's input re the layout of the farmhouse and assigned positions to firearms officers. In between this they attempted to make contact with the farmhouse via a loud jailer. All these things take time.
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Chief Sup Harris saw the authentic soc ie SC's head raised against the bedside cabinet and everthing else in situ ie bible and rifle. The soc images represent the soc after it had been interfered with not by JB but those at soc.
Not this again, her head couldn't have been raised at that point.
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All officers at soc incl the police surgeon were signed up to murder/suicide. DS Jones was the only early dissenter but he was never a rising star. He retired at DS rank.
First respondents arrived circa 4 am. They then had to call firearms and get authorisation for such an operation and wait until all these people arrived. Upon arrival they sought JB's input re the layout of the farmhouse and assigned positions to firearms officers. In between this they attempted to make contact with the farmhouse via a loud jailer. All these things take time.
Whats that got to do with anything?
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That's how it was on the TV series!
I suspect there was at least a little dramatic effect there,to be honest.
TV programmes depict true happenings to make for easier viewing, but it’s absolutely true that ALL the police officers agreed they thought Jeremy was the culprit. That’s one of the reasons why Taff was slung off the case.
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Chief Sup Harris saw the authentic soc ie SC's head raised against the bedside cabinet and everthing else in situ ie bible and rifle. The soc images represent the soc after it had been interfered with not by JB but those at soc.
Sheila’s head was NOT raised against the cabinet!
Why do a minority of people insist thus when there’s absolutely NOTHING in writing, and no photographs saying/to show her head was raised?!
It’s so illogical to keep this ridiculous rumour up.
The blood on Sheila’s face was running UPWARDS: you’re trying to defy gravity!
Sheila’s head was FLAT on the floor .
And why the hell would the police MOVE her head?!
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All officers at soc incl the police surgeon were signed up to murder/suicide. DS Jones was the only early dissenter but he was never a rising star. He retired at DS rank.
First respondents arrived circa 4 am. They then had to call firearms and get authorisation for such an operation and wait until all these people arrived. Upon arrival they sought JB's input re the layout of the farmhouse and assigned positions to firearms officers. In between this they attempted to make contact with the farmhouse via a loud jailer. All these things take time.
At the soc the officers went along with what Taff and Harris said — and they were proved WRONG when Jeremy was convicted due to all the subsequent overwhelming evidence.
You try and debase DS Jones by saying he wasn’t a “rising star” but it was due to HIM that Jeremy Bamber didn’t get away murdering his family. Whilst DCI Taff Jones got SLUNG OUT it was DS Jones who took the glory for discovering the truth! DS Jones was known be highly intelligent; had a sense of humour; and was popular — everything Taff lacked. I’m sure Taff Jones didn’t feel a “star” when he got slung off the case!
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All officers at soc incl the police surgeon were signed up to murder/suicide. DS Jones was the only early dissenter but he was never a rising star. He retired at DS rank.
First respondents arrived circa 4 am. They then had to call firearms and get authorisation for such an operation and wait until all these people arrived. Upon arrival they sought JB's input re the layout of the farmhouse and assigned positions to firearms officers. In between this they attempted to make contact with the farmhouse via a loud jailer. All these things take time.
Holly, Inspectors spend more time running their team than working on the frontline. They delegate, but don’t do the nitty gritty hands-on work. So in a way their detective skills may not be as sharp as the detective sergeants who actually attend scene crimes and interview suspects,
Inspectors plan, manage and monitor complex front line and/or specialist operational policing (even arranging traffic operations when marches are taking place!) and also make informed deployment decisions to ensure best use of available resources
They’re more desk bound than frontline, and their job is to “police the police”. Being an Inspector doesn’t mean they have better detective skills.
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Chief Sup Harris saw the authentic soc ie SC's head raised against the bedside cabinet and everthing else in situ ie bible and rifle. The soc images represent the soc after it had been interfered with not by JB but those at soc
Thats quite a statement Holly, what in the way of evidence do you have to back this assertion up ?
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Holly, Inspectors spend more time running their team than working on the frontline. They delegate, but don’t do the nitty gritty hands-on work. So in a way their detective skills may not be as sharp as the detective sergeants who actually attend scene crimes and interview suspects,
Inspectors plan, manage and monitor complex front line and/or specialist operational policing (even arranging traffic operations when marches are taking place!) and also make informed deployment decisions to ensure best use of available resources
They’re more desk bound than frontline, and their job is to “police the police”. Being an Inspector doesn’t mean they have better detective skills.
I assume they become inspectors because they showed very good detective skills in the past!
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I assume they become inspectors because they showed very good detective skills in the past!
Not necessarily.
They could have other skills which make the suitable for promotion (which they apply for) if they’re good team leaders.
But whatever rank they are they aren’t infallible, and can make mistakes — a perfect example being Taff Jones.
Remember, they rely on the work carried out by their team: they don’t get their “own hands dirty” as it were. Taff Jones only spent 15 minutes at the soc, which is appalling when you consider the gravity of what happened. I believe he was anxious to go and play golf...
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Not necessarily.
They could have other skills which make the suitable for promotion (which they apply for) if they’re good team leaders.
But whatever rank they are they aren’t infallible, and can make mistakes — a perfect example being Taff Jones.
Remember, they rely on the work carried out by their team: they don’t get their “own hands dirty” as it were. Taff Jones only spent 15 minutes at the soc, which is appalling when you consider the gravity of what happened. I believe he was anxious to go and play golf...
If Taff Jone's mistake was reading the crime scene incorrectly as four murders and one suicide rather than five murders made to look like "four murders and one suicide", I'd have to agree with you.
It is incredible to think he only spent 15 minutes at the soc. It made me think of other cases where the person in charge seems to spend very little time at the soc. (McCann case sprung to mind where Amaral seems to be absent).
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Thats quite a statement Holly, what in the way of evidence do you have to back this assertion up ?
None.
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If Taff Jone's mistake was reading the crime scene incorrectly as four murders and one suicide rather than five murders made to look like "four murders and one suicide", I'd have to agree with you.
It is incredible to think he only spent 15 minutes at the soc. It made me think of other cases where the person in charge seems to spend very little time at the soc. (McCann case sprung to mind where Amaral seems to be absent).
I agree with you, Rob
Taff Jones must have just glanced at the positions and states of the bodies for about no more than 1-2 minutes, taking into account the other five minutes he zoomed through the whole house talking to officers.
How he was able to check all doors/windows/rooms and inspect them thoroughly; look at guns, ammunition, blood stains in five minutes flat and establish it was a murder/suicide means he didn’t study the scene at all. He made a snap decision because the rifle was on Sheila’s lap. Some brain he had! No wonder the Home Secretary was disgusted and opened an inquiry into how sloppy the team were taking orders from Taff.
It was outrageous.
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None.
Succinct. @)(++(*
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I agree with you, Rob
Taff Jones must have just glanced at the positions and states of the bodies for about no more than 1-2 minutes, taking into account the other five minutes he zoomed through the whole house talking to officers.
How he was able to check all doors/windows/rooms and inspect them thoroughly; look at guns, ammunition, blood stains in five minutes flat and establish it was a murder/suicide means he didn’t study the scene at all. He made a snap decision because the rifle was on Sheila’s lap. Some brain he had! No wonder the Home Secretary was disgusted and opened an inquiry into how sloppy the team were taking orders from Taff.
It was outrageous.
And there seemed to be (at least in the dramatisations) that the subordinates were not allowed to question the boss or the Super as they called him.
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And there seemed to be (at least in the dramatisations) that the subordinates were not allowed to question the boss or the Super as they called him.
Since the series aired, police chiefs have been at pains to defend Taff's reputation, saying he'd been misrepresented. I don't recall that they used expressions such as "much loved", "well liked", and "popular". All of these thing, it seems, he wasn't
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Did he admit to it?
Taff Jones was known never to admit to his mistakes.
That was his downfall
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Can you provide a cite that confirms that? I was under the impression the number of samples taken in a suicide case would be limited.
Depends what method the victim used
Tablets, hanging, car exhaust fumes etc...whatever method they use the police take ALL evidence and items, including photographs of the scene.
No, I’m not providing cites. If you want to Google and find some, feel free.
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Thats quite a statement Holly, what in the way of evidence do you have to back this assertion up ?
Quite an armoury actually ?>)()<
Firstly there's A/PS Woodcock's wit stat re SC's head raised against the bedside cabinet:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3600
This is at odds with soc images but bizarrely is supported by testimony from prosecution expert Martyn Ismail:
518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet. For her then to slide to be found in the position depicted in the photographs would have required the downward force to be greater than the friction of her body against the floor. In his opinion this simply was not possible as there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force. Therefore he concluded that an additional force would have been necessary. It could not have come from Sheila Caffell since the second shot would have been instantly fatal and thus she must have been moved by someone else, for example with her legs being pulled. He also considered that the weight and the friction between her skin and her nightdress was likely to have been less than the weight and friction between the nightdress and the carpet. Therefore, he would expect movement of the body within the nightdress rather than the body and clothing sliding together across the carpet. He pointed out that the photographs demonstrated this effect at the back of the nightdress with the nightdress staying rucked up in its original position. However the front of the nightdress had not demonstrated this effect. Accordingly Mr Ismail concluded that the nightdress had been pulled down after Sheila Caffell slid into her final position. Since on the evidence, she was dead by this stage, Mr Ismail concluded that some one else had arranged her nightdress.
I'll post the other bits later.
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Quite an armoury actually ?>)()<
Firstly there's A/PS Woodcock's wit stat re SC's head raised against the bedside cabinet:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3600
This is at odds with soc images but bizarrely is supported by testimony from prosecution expert Martyn Ismail:
518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet. For her then to slide to be found in the position depicted in the photographs would have required the downward force to be greater than the friction of her body against the floor. In his opinion this simply was not possible as there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force. Therefore he concluded that an additional force would have been necessary. It could not have come from Sheila Caffell since the second shot would have been instantly fatal and thus she must have been moved by someone else, for example with her legs being pulled. He also considered that the weight and the friction between her skin and her nightdress was likely to have been less than the weight and friction between the nightdress and the carpet. Therefore, he would expect movement of the body within the nightdress rather than the body and clothing sliding together across the carpet. He pointed out that the photographs demonstrated this effect at the back of the nightdress with the nightdress staying rucked up in its original position. However the front of the nightdress had not demonstrated this effect. Accordingly Mr Ismail concluded that the nightdress had been pulled down after Sheila Caffell slid into her final position. Since on the evidence, she was dead by this stage, Mr Ismail concluded that some one else had arranged her nightdress.
I'll post the other bits later.
And your claim is at odds with gravity.
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And your claim is at odds with gravity.
Not if the blood you see leaking from various places originated from blood which had pooled in the back of the throat and leaked when SC was pulled by the feet and her head fell flat to the floor.
How do you think MI accounted for the trails?
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Not if the blood you see leaking from various places originated from blood which had pooled in the back of the throat and leaked when SC was pulled by the feet and her head fell flat to the floor.
How do you think MI accounted for the trails?
Who is MI?
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Who is MI?
Martyn Ismail
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Not if the blood you see leaking from various places originated from blood which had pooled in the back of the throat and leaked when SC was pulled by the feet and her head fell flat to the floor.
How do you think MI accounted for the trails?
I agree with MI - but not that the police moved her and neither does MI.
He certainly happened before Woodcock saw her because he mentions the blood having run from the sides of her mouth.
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Quite an armoury actually ?>)()<
Firstly there's A/PS Woodcock's wit stat re SC's head raised against the bedside cabinet:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3600
This is at odds with soc images but bizarrely is supported by testimony from prosecution expert Martyn Ismail:
518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet. For her then to slide to be found in the position depicted in the photographs would have required the downward force to be greater than the friction of her body against the floor. In his opinion this simply was not possible as there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force. Therefore he concluded that an additional force would have been necessary. It could not have come from Sheila Caffell since the second shot would have been instantly fatal and thus she must have been moved by someone else, for example with her legs being pulled. He also considered that the weight and the friction between her skin and her nightdress was likely to have been less than the weight and friction between the nightdress and the carpet. Therefore, he would expect movement of the body within the nightdress rather than the body and clothing sliding together across the carpet. He pointed out that the photographs demonstrated this effect at the back of the nightdress with the nightdress staying rucked up in its original position. However the front of the nightdress had not demonstrated this effect. Accordingly Mr Ismail concluded that the nightdress had been pulled down after Sheila Caffell slid into her final position. Since on the evidence, she was dead by this stage, Mr Ismail concluded that some one else had arranged her nightdress.
I'll post the other bits later.
Yes, Jeremy pulled Sheila by her feet and ankles (hence why her feet were pointed in an unnatural downward position), and in doing so her nightie bunched up startled the front too. That’s why he pulled the front down. But he didn’t realise the back would be bunched up too.
One thing that confuses me is that I read Sheila wasn’t wearing any knickers. Not sure if that’s true or not.
But it seems strange she wasn’t when all women wear knickers when they’re menstruating. And her soiled ones were soaking in the bucket, so she did wear them, obviously.
Just seems strange...
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I agree with MI - but not that the police moved her and neither does MI.
He certainly happened before Woodcock saw her because he mentions the blood having run from the sides of her mouth.
Sheila was pulled down long before the police raided
The blood on her face, which ran horizontally and upwards was dry.
That can’t be denied.