UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: faithlilly on April 07, 2013, 01:08:54 PM
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Is it truly possible, as we are lead to believe, that the story of the broken, jemmied shutters was a collective misunderstanding by at least four of the McCann's family and friends who had no contact with each other ?
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Is it truly possible, as we are lead to believe, that the story of the broken, jemmied shutters was a collective misunderstanding by at least four of the McCann's family and friends who had no contact with each other ?
PLease provide quotes from primary sources to advance your case.
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Is it truly possible, as we are lead to believe, that the story of the broken, jemmied shutters was a collective misunderstanding by at least four of the McCann's family and friends who had no contact with each other ?
PLease provide quotes from primary sources to advance your case.
I'm sure after six years you are fully aware of the primary source evidence available. At least four separate individuals told the media, both in interviews and in print form, that they had been told be the McCanns that the shutters had been broken, jemmied or forced and in several instances that the door had been left hanging open.
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Is it truly possible, as we are lead to believe, that the story of the broken, jemmied shutters was a collective misunderstanding by at least four of the McCann's family and friends who had no contact with each other ?
PLease provide quotes from primary sources to advance your case.
I'm sure after six years you are fully aware of the primary source evidence available. At least four separate individuals told the media, both in interviews and in print form, that they had been told be the McCanns that the shutters had been broken, jemmied or forced and in
several instances that the door had been left hanging open.
I doubt your account for good reason. Please provide cites for these supposed statements.
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Is this what you feel passes for debate ? Asking me to provide quotes that you yourself are obviously already aware of ? Please rebut my assertion by all means but don't employ delaying tactics and pretend it's debate.
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Is this what you feel passes for debate ? Asking me to provide quotes that you yourself are obviously already aware of ? Please rebut my assertion by all means but don't employ delaying tactics and pretend it's debate.
Actually that is the normal way of debating something. A person makes a claim as you have done, they then back that claim up with evidence and the debate continues from that point. I am shocked you don't understand even the most basic tenets of debate.
Oh....
And....
If you had bothered to look at the FORUM RULES you would find that it is part of the agreement of being a member here that you back up what you say with evidence.
"The rules of this forum are very straightforward. Please treat all members with respect, avoid speculation and ensure that any material posted is accompanied by the relevant links."
As they seem to have slipped your attention the rules are here.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4.msg4#msg4
Now who are those four people and where are your links to what they said?
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Is it truly possible, as we are lead to believe, that the story of the broken, jemmied shutters was a collective misunderstanding by at least four of the McCann's family and friends who had no contact with each other ?
This is what I think happened -
When the McCanns first discovered MAdeleine gone and the shutters & window opened they reasonably assumed (as I would) that they had been broken into and their child taken. In order to break into a room with shuttered windows it is also (IMO) reasonable to assume (especially if these are shutters belonging to a property that you do not own or are responsible for the maintenance of) that some force was used to lift the shutters.
That is why when the McCanns FIRST spoke to their friends and family they exclaimed that Madeleine's room had been broken into, the shutters forces open (or jemmied) and the child taken.
Now, which part of that sounds unreasonable to you? Let me guess - all of it!
My understanding of the situation is the same. Though any people who may have reported such a thing about the windows may not have had direct contact between each other, they almost certainly had direct contact with Gerry or Kate on the phone or by text.
But of course none of this can be examined till Faithlilly provides us with the names and the links to what precisely was said by these people.
Further debate is pointless till that occurs as we do not even know who she is referring to or what exactly they are supposed to have said.
I am sure she will provide the names and links and then debate can continue.
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@ Martha
The only problem with your theory is by the time the McCanns told their family/friends that the windows had been broken/jemmied Gerry had already, we are told, found that the shutters were easy to open from the outside and there was no need to force them.
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@ Martha
The only problem with your theory is by the time the McCanns told their family/friends that the windows had been broken/jemmied Gerry had already, we are told, found that the shutters were easy to open from the outside and there was no need to force them.
Cite?
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Is it truly possible, as we are lead to believe, that the story of the broken, jemmied shutters was a collective misunderstanding by at least four of the McCann's family and friends who had no contact with each other ?
This is what I think happened -
When the McCanns first discovered MAdeleine gone and the shutters & window opened they reasonably assumed (as I would) that they had been broken into and their child taken. In order to break into a room with shuttered windows it is also (IMO) reasonable to assume (especially if these are shutters belonging to a property that you do not own or are responsible for the maintenance of) that some force was used to lift the shutters.
That is why when the McCanns FIRST spoke to their friends and family they exclaimed that Madeleine's room had been broken into, the shutters forces open (or jemmied) and the child taken.
Now, which part of that sounds unreasonable to you? Let me guess - all of it!
They know very well that what you say is a reasonable assumption. And it was all very much second and third hand quotes at a time of total panic. And of course, we now know that the shutters can be lifted from outside, courtesy of PeterMac who we saw doing just that.
No one knows if the window was locked.
It is the sort of assumption that I could well have made.
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@ gilet
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id31.html
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@ Martha
The only problem with your theory is by the time the McCanns told their family/friends that the windows had been broken/jemmied Gerry had already, we are told, found that the shutters were easy to open from the outside and there was no need to force them.
Who are these family/friends who you are referring to? Please provide links to what they said and when they said it so that a proper discussion can follow.
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Imo if the glass panes were closed but not locked, it is easy to open the window from the outside without damaging it. See ...
http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/04/could-madeleine-mccann-be-abducted-in.html (http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/04/could-madeleine-mccann-be-abducted-in.html)
http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2012/10/the-abduction-of-madeleine-mccann-report.html (http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2012/10/the-abduction-of-madeleine-mccann-report.html)
Heri.
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Is this what you feel passes for debate ? Asking me to provide quotes that you yourself are obviously already aware of ? Please rebut my assertion by all means but don't employ delaying tactics and pretend it's debate.
YEs, it is your misunderstanding.
IF youmake an assertion, you should backit up with evidence.
IF you do not do that, then be prepared to be called out on the issue
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@ gilet
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id31.html
Sorry that is a link to a general page. Please specify who you are talking about (name them so I can at least look for specific individuals on the page).
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@ Eleanor
If Gerry had already lifted the shutters from outside why would he assume they needed to be jemmied to gain entry and of course there was no sign of them being broken.
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@ gilet
You have the quotes requested and I'm sure you are quite able to read. Unless of course you want them to give you the quotes in person ?
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@ Eleanor
If Gerry had already lifted the shutters from outside why would he assume they needed to be jemmied to gain entry and of course there was no sign of them being broken.
@ Martha
The only problem with your theory is by the time the McCanns told their family/friends that the windows had been broken/jemmied Gerry had already, we are told, found that the shutters were easy to open from the outside and there was no need to force them.
It would appear that you are either simply making a presumption that Gerry lifted the shutters before he phoned or texted people in the UK or are you telling us that is a fact?
If you are claiming this as a fact please give a link to the information. If it is just your presumption then please make that clear because debate is impossible without facts.
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@ Eleanor
If Gerry had already lifted the shutters from outside why would he assume they needed to be jemmied to gain entry and of course there was no sign of them being broken.
I don't know at precisely what time Gerry attempted to lift the shutter. He was almost certainly trying to see if it was possible. A dispute about how it was done is pointless. We know that it can be done, with or without a jemmy.
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I donot usually do this sort ofdiscussion as I thinkit is a waste of energy, but I looked at your cites and found this which I did not know:
"The window shutters, which had been closed since we arrived on Saturday, were open along with the window. They can be opened from the outside."
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/maddy-3-goes-missing-472340
So let us look into Kate's mind. All week she has believed that these shutters which have always been closed ( and probably assumed locked) are found t OK be open for thefirst time. Immediate reaction- someone jemmied them.
THe fact thatthey had not been opened all week suddenly explains a lot!
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@ gilet
You have the quotes requested and I'm sure you are quite able to read. Unless of course you want them to give you the quotes in person ?
No. You claim there are four or more people who have made specific comments about the windows. Who are those people?
Just name them and then we know who we are talking about. Giving a link to a very long page with a host of names on it is either laziness on your part or an indication you cannot actually name those people.
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@ gilet
You have the quotes requested and I'm sure you are quite able to read. Unless of course you want them to give you the quotes in person ?
IT is good forum manners to not only give the URL but also either a quote or some indication of where the information is.
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@ Eleanor
If Gerry had already lifted the shutters from outside why would he assume they needed to be jemmied to gain entry and of course there was no sign of them being broken.
I don't know at precisely what time Gerry attempted to lift the shutter. He was almost certainly trying to see if it was possible. A dispute about how it was done is pointless. We know that it can be done, with or without a jemmy.
But Faithlilly tells us specifically that the shutters were opened by Gerry from the outside before he contacted people in the UK.
@ Martha
The only problem with your theory is by the time the McCanns told their family/friends that the windows had been broken/jemmied Gerry had already, we are told, found that the shutters were easy to open from the outside and there was no need to force them.
Unfortunately as per... she gives no evidence to back up this rather crucial claim of hers.
If it is true then it matters. If it is not true then the question in the opening post of this thread is completely redundant.
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@ debunker
Except where the pages indicated by the poster happens to about something else entirely.
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@ debunker
Except where the pages indicated by the poster happens to about something else entirely.
Please simply name the four people and then I can search that page for their comments.
Please just give the evidence you have for claiming that Gerry opened the window before contacting his family/friends or admit it is supposition on your part.
Till then you are delaying the debate on your topic by your refusal to even tell us who we are supposed to be looking at. Are we supposed to simply guess who the four people are and whether you are telling the truth about Gerry?
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@ gilet
Just for you as comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong point :
Jill Renwick, Trish Cameron, John Corner and Brian Healy. Of course there are more but that should be enough to be going on with.
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@ gilet
From Kate's book :
'In the children’s room, Gerry lowered the shutter at the open window. Rushing outside, he made the sickening discovery that it could be raised from this side, too, not just from inside as we’d thought. Gerry, David, Russell and Matt split into pairs and dashed around the adjacent apartment blocks, meeting back at our flat within a couple of minutes. Just after ten past ten, Gerry asked Matt to run to the Ocean Club’s twenty-four-hour reception to get the staff to call the police.'
From Trish Cameron's police statement :
'I remember hearing about Madeleines disappearance by phone on the night of 3rd May 2007. I usually go to bed late but I was particularly tired that night and went to bed early. I was woken by the phone ringing at about 23.30'
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@ gilet
Just for you as comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong point :
Jill Renwick, Trish Cameron, John Corner and Brian Healy. Of course there are more but that should be enough to be going on with.
Were any of these people in Portugal at the time? Not that I consider "Jemmied" to be important. It is a turn of phrase. Those shutters could be opened from outside.
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@ gilet
Just for you as comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong point :
Jill Renwick, Trish Cameron, John Corner and Brian Healy. Of course there are more but that should be enough to be going on with.
Thank you, that wasn't too difficult now was it?
Even if Gerry or Kate had phoned or texted just a couple of these people before that happened it is very likely (don't you think) that the message would have been passed around in the UK between family and friends. Why do you say in your opening post that none of these people had any contact with each other? Do you have any evidence for that or are you simply guessing? Personally, I would have thought that with that kind of news the phones would be red hot between every family member and friend who could be informed.
However now I have some names at least I can read what they said while you find the evidence.
I await the evidence that none of the people contacted each other in the UK because such phoning (very likely in my view) would completely demolish the point you are making in your opening post.
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@ gilet
Just for you as comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong point :
Jill Renwick, Trish Cameron, John Corner and Brian Healy. Of course there are more but that should be enough to be going on with.
Were any of these people in Portugal at the time? Not that I consider "Jemmied" to be important. It is a turn of phrase. Those shutters could be opened from outside.
Jemmied is a turn of phrase as you say. It has various tones of meaning in different parts of the UK I believe, from opening something that is locked merely by pushing with a blunt instrument to using extreme force and a metal bar to gain entry.
As described before by another poster the scenario is quite simple, I believe.
The window is open which it clearly should not be as it was left closed. Gerry goes out, finds that with minimal force the shutter can be "jemmied" open from the outside even though he believed that the closing mechanism on the inside effectively locked it. It had been forced open in his view. Most people would think the same if the window on their property had been opened without their permission.
He then phones home and to other people using the term jemmied perfectly correctly. Those people use the word precisely because they only had Gerry's comment to go on and had not been to PDL. Others in the UK were given the same story by word of mouth between each other because I believe that they would have contacted each other given that a child of the family or of their friends was missing. I know I would be phoning like mad to find information.
Now I will look at precisely what the people you have named for me actually said.
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Interesting.
Mrs Jill Renwick the first of the people you named doesn't even used the word 'jemmied'.
She simply reports that the windows had been forced open.
Ms Renwick said: "Poor Kate and Gerry don't know where to turn. She's obviously been taken as she couldn't have gone out on her own and the shutters had been forced open."
"The shutters had been broken open and they've gone into the room and taken her."
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id31.html
Now to see what the others said.
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Oddly Jon Corner doesn't use the word 'jemmied' either.
Jon Corner, founder of Liverpool-based River Media, is godfather to the McCann’s twins and his wife has known Mrs McCann since they were both three.
The co-founder of city centre-based River Media, and a father-of-three himself, said: “Kate phoned me in the early hours totally devastated .
“She just told me that Maddy had been abducted, that the shutters of the apartment had been forced and someone had taken her.
http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/breaking-news/tm_method=full&objectid=19051729&siteid=50061-name_page.html#ixzz2Pn4c86lU
So far no-one has used the word jemmied. They've simply said that the windows were forced open which they were according to the witnesses.
Nothing suspicious so far that I can see at all.
Gerry or Kate simply informed these people individually of the facts as they saw them.
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"Jemmied" is a Glaswegian phrase for "Forced Open". It doesn't have to be done by a metal bar. I suspect that Philomena used this expression, although I find no fault with her for having done so.
But I don't really understand why this is a cause for contention. It is irrelevant to what might have happened.
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Aha. The first mention of the word "jemmied".
"Mark Warner, the holiday firm which runs the luxury resort, claimed last night there was no sign of a break in at the ground floor apartment overlooking the sea. But Brian Healy, Madeleine's maternal grandfather, told the Guardian his son-in-law had phoned him shortly after returning to the apartment from a nearby restaurant to find Madeleine had disappeared.
"Gerry told me when they went back the shutters to the room were broken, they were jemmied up and she was gone," said Mr Healy. "She'd been taken from the chalet. The door was open.""
Still nothing suspicious to me. It is perfectly natural to think that the shutters had been broken and forced/jemmied if up till that time you had been relying on the indoor opening and closing mechanism or if you had not been opening them at all. They had after all been opened against without the use of the proper mechanism. They had effectively been forced no matter how easy it was found to be.
Sometimes when forcing doors police have to use battering rams. Other times (as I know from having opened an elderly neighbour's door when she locked herself out, it took little more than a push. Her Yale lock had been secured by only two tiny screws. Since then she has improved security of course.)
As for Mark Warner having said there was no sign of a break in. Perhaps there wasn't by the time they came to look. If Gerry, as Kate says in her book, went out immediately to check the shutter then he very possibly did not leave it in a position which MW staff later thought showed a break in.
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And yes, Trish Cameron used the word jemmied.
Ms Cameron, who is Mr McCann's sister, says the family is now going through hell.
She said: `My brother and sister-in-law are absolutely distraught.
`They last checked at half past nine and they were all sound asleep, windows shut, shutters shut.
`Kate went back at ten o'clock to check. The front door was lying open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters had been jemmied open and Madeleine was missing. She's an absolutely beautiful, wee blonde girl with blue-green eyes. She is a gorgeous wee girl.`
http://www.dumbartonreporter.co.uk/articles/1/11258
Seems to me that she is simply reporting what she was told by Gerry.
He saw the shutters had been opened when he thought they had been fastened from the inside and he described that as being 'jemmied'. Kate when speaking to Jon Corner for example used the word 'forced'.
I can't see the issue. When something is opened without the normal opening mechanism being used I would describe it as being forced open. If you open a door without a key then you force it or jemmy it, same with shutters or windows.
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I have never understood Anti McCanns' obsession with the 'jemmied' shutters. Am I right in assuming you guys believe jemmied means broken open with a crow bar or something like that?
[ censored word], please explain your obsession. Do you think the McCanns decided to stage an abduction, told everyone the shutters had been jemmied but actually forgot to jemmy them beforehand? Do you think the McCanns decided to tell everyone they'd been jemmied even though they knew they hadn't and that they were too stupid to realise that the police would be along minutes later to confirm that they hadn't actually been jemmied?
What's the theory here?
I agree absolutely. I cannot see the point of this thread at all.
Gerry and Kate phoned their friends and using slightly different phrasing described the scene they found of windows having been opened from the outside when they believed they were locked from the inside. Forced or jemmied, both words seem to reflect the situation accurately to me.
And the notion that there would have to be contact between tbe individuals in the UK reporting this is ludicrous. Why? They were told individually by Gerry or Kate.
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@ gilet
In my first post I also used the word broken. Perhaps you can give us a rundown of how many times the family/friends used that word too ?
It is obvious from the statements that the details of the scenario described by each individual was given to them directly in a phone call by either Kate or Gerry and was not something they were told second hand. That each was told the same story with the same glaring untruth is worthy of debate. Whether you think so or not matters not a jot.
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@ gilet
In my first post I also used the word broken. Perhaps you can give us a rundown of how many times the family/friends used that word too ?
It is obvious from the statements that the details of the scenario described by each individual was given to them directly in a phone call by either Kate or Gerry and was not something they were told second hand. That each was told the same story with the same glaring untruth is worthy of debate. Whether you think so or not matters not a jot.
YOu are speculating again.
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God I have had the misfortune to read some boring irrelevant threads in my life but this is taking the biscuit.
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God I have had the misfortune to read some boring irrelevant threads in my life but this is taking the biscuit.
Are you a WUM?
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God I have had the misfortune to read some boring irrelevant threads in my life but this is taking the biscuit.
Are you a WUM?
probably - it sounds that way doesn't it
It's like overhearing someone else's conversation in a pub and can't believe it!
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@ gilet
In my first post I also used the word broken. Perhaps you can give us a rundown of how many times the family/friends used that word too ?
It is obvious from the statements that the details of the scenario described by each individual was given to them directly in a phone call by either Kate or Gerry and was not something they were told second hand. That each was told the same story with the same glaring untruth is worthy of debate. Whether you think so or not matters not a jot.
What untruth?
I am not aware of any untruth?
I am aware that of the four people you mentioned, two use the word broken.
One, Jill, used the term "broken open" which is another way of saying jemmied/forced.
And another used the term broken, the elderly Mr. Healy.
Perhaps his daughter had used the phrase "broken open" when talking to both him and her friend Jill and he had foreshortened it in his highly pressured response to the journalist.
The other two did not use the term broken.
So your problem seems to be that Gerry when phoning his friends didn't change his story at all and that these people remembered what had been said to them and repeated it to the press.
And Kate didn't change the story at all and that her contacts remembered more or less the same thing and told it to the press.
I really am at a total loss to see what you are getting at.
o summarise my position in this debate.
Gerry and Kate phoned their friends and told them what they honestly believed had happened to the shutters.
They believed they had been forced/broken open/jemmied.
They believed this because the shutters had been closed when they left and were open when they got home.
Then the friends who they had told repeated the same story to the press.
Where is the problem that you are apparently finding in all this?
What is the issue?
It is perfectly simple.
And why after three pages of debate are you very stupidly proclaiming that nobody thinks it matters and it is worthy of debate is quite beyond me unless you are playing a silly game.
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this won't be answered but what difference do jemmied or not windows make to a missing child?
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I do think my quote above where Kate says that the shtters had not been open or opened all week. It is reasonable to asume that such shutters are normally locked from the inside. When they are suddenly found to be completely open, it would be natural to assume that they had been forced.
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I do think my quote above where Kate says that the shtters had not been open or opened all week. It is reasonable to asume that such shutters are normally locked from the inside. When they are suddenly found to be completely open, it would be natural to assume that they had been forced.
I would agree that if Gerry hadn't found that the shutters opened easily from the outside, it would be safe to assume they'd been forced. But Kate makes it clear in the quote I have posted from her book that they didn't suspect they'd been forced but were simply not as secure, as they had first thought.
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I do think my quote above where Kate says that the shtters had not been open or opened all week. It is reasonable to asume that such shutters are normally locked from the inside. When they are suddenly found to be completely open, it would be natural to assume that they had been forced.
I would agree that if Gerry hadn't found that the shutters opened easily from the outside, it would be safe to assume they'd been forced. But Kate makes it clear in the quote I have posted from her book that they didn't suspect they'd been forced but were simply not as secure, as they had first thought.
Gerry didn't just "find" those shutters open as you claim. To him it was a shocking "sickening discovery". It wasn't a shrug of the shoulders moment as you imply where he simply changed his mind. He was sickened by the finding.
After years of reflection Kate chooses no longer to use the word "forced/jemmied" but in her book tells us that the shutters were not secure and were opened from the outside.
Using the quote you provided (so presumably you read it too), Kate says,
"In the children’s room, Gerry lowered the shutter at the open window. Rushing outside, he made the sickening discovery that it could be raised from this side, too, not just from inside as we’d thought."
Telling us that at the time of the disappearance this was, a"sickening discovery", that discovering this was to Gerry and her quite shocking in fact.
And you are suggesting that in the couple of hours of panic after this "sickening discovery" the McCanns could not have referred to this window as having been "forced open" or "jemmied open" against the locking system which they had believed was sufficient to secure it from the inside, when making emotional and distressing phone calls to relatives and friends?
I seriously doubt that other open-minded readers here will fail to see such a possibility.
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a) how do you know Gerry McCann when he "went outside to test the shutters" as reported wasn't trying to make it look like they'd been broken/tampered with and couldn't?
b) the initial story was that the apartment was locked, they had to have a break in to make it look like they weren't being irresponsible
c) it wasn't until AFTER Gerry's first statement that the story changed to "oh actually, the back door was open"
d) John Hill (while Gerry was giving his statement) revealed there was no evidence of tampering. Amazingly that afternoon, Kate's statement differed from Gerry's. Gerry's subsequent statement "corrected" his mistake over the locked door.
e) which statement of Gerry's was more likely to be true? The one given before the facts came out or the one afterwards?
f) why was Gerry (and Diane Webster and Fiona Payne) fiddling with a crime scene if that's what they believed? Everyone was well educated and forensically aware enough to know not to touch anything. Yet you lot say it's the PJ's fault. Of course it is, nothing to do with the McCanns and their friends!
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Staying in similar accommodation in the Canart Islands we have often left windows open and relied on shutters or blinds for security,but only after giving them a good tug to rtest them.
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Of course Martha
The lie was a panicked reaction in order that their relatives didn't blame them for leaving the apartment insecure. It was never going to stand up to scrutiny, they knew that and that's why they never repeated the story in any of their statements. It was a holding device, nothing more. It does however show the McCanns as people who are willing to be dishonest if the situation warrants it, simply to save their own skins.
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The Uk doesn't understand these shutters because they don't have them. In fact, hey are not difficult to open from outside.
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The Uk doesn't understand these shutters because they don't have them. In fact, hey are not difficult to open from outside.
Some are, some aren't. No-one knows about the original ones on 5A as they've been broken/repaired and possibly even replaced over the years.
Also unless someone stands and holds them, there is no way they stay open. There were no "prop" marks.
Also Kate McCann says that Gerry lowered the shutters then went outside and tested them. This indicates they were "open" by the cord as that's the only way (without propping) they'll stay open.
Honestly, you lot are so dumb to continue trying to float this story as anything other than the fabrication it was.
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The Uk doesn't understand these shutters because they don't have them. In fact, hey are not difficult to open from outside.
Some are, some aren't. No-one knows about the original ones on 5A as they've been broken/repaired and possibly even replaced over the years.
Also unless someone stands and holds them, there is no way they stay open. There were no "prop" marks.
Also Kate McCann says that Gerry lowered the shutters then went outside and tested them. This indicates they were "open" by the cord as that's the only way (without propping) they'll stay open.
Honestly, you lot are so dumb to continue trying to float this story as anything other than the fabrication it was.
Fortunately, we don't really care about what you think. At least, I don't
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Of course Martha
The lie was a panicked reaction in order that their relatives didn't blame them for leaving the apartment insecure. It was never going to stand up to scrutiny, they knew that and that's why they never repeated the story in any of their statements. It was a holding device, nothing more. It does however show the McCanns as people who are willing to be dishonest if the situation warrants it, simply to save their own skins.
MInd reading again.
ONly your opinion
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@ gilet
Kate knew the patio doors were open so what difference did it make that the windows could be opened from the outside ? Anyone with an ounce of sense would assume if the window had been used at all it would be as an exit rather than an entry point so what difference did the fact that the shutters could be lifted make other than to convince relatives they had not been neglectful.
Scenario 1 Kate calls her family " Madeleine has been abducted. We left the patio doors open while we were in the tapas bar and someone got in"
Scenario 2 Kate calls her family " Madeleine has been abducted. A stranger broke in through the shutters that we thought were secure and took her"
What scenario do you think would guarantee the McCanns the least censure ?
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Of course Martha
The lie was a panicked reaction in order that their relatives didn't blame them for leaving the apartment insecure. It was never going to stand up to scrutiny, they knew that and that's why they never repeated the story in any of their statements. It was a holding device, nothing more. It does however show the McCanns as people who are willing to be dishonest if the situation warrants it, simply to save their own skins.
Why would they be in a panicked state about leaving the apartment insecure? Unless of course they felt that leaving
the apartment in an insecure state had allowed an abductor to gain entry. But you don't believe in an abductor do you?
So - why would they have been panicking if this was a story they'd all been planning to tell? And if they'd wanted to make it look like a break-in why didn't they actually BREAK-IN? Perhaps you can elucidate further...
There was no pre planning that night, everything was panicked and there certainly was no time to stage a break-in.
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@ gilet
Kate knew the patio doors were open so what difference did it make that the windows could be opened from the outside ? Anyone with an ounce of sense would assume if the window had been used at all it would be as an exit rather than an entry point so what difference did the fact that the shutters could be lifted make other than to convince relatives they had not been neglectful.
Scenario 1 Kate calls her family " Madeleine has been abducted. We left the patio doors open while we were in the tapas bar and someone got in"
Scenario 2 Kate calls her family " Madeleine has been abducted. A stranger broke in through the shutters that we thought were secure and took her"
What scenario do you think would guarantee the McCanns the least censure ?
Quite.
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@ gilet
Kate knew the patio doors were open so what difference did it make that the windows could be opened from the outside ? Anyone with an ounce of sense would assume if the window had been used at all it would be as an exit rather than an entry point so what difference did the fact that the shutters could be lifted make other than to convince relatives they had not been neglectful.
Scenario 1 Kate calls her family " Madeleine has been abducted. We left the patio doors open while we were in the tapas bar and someone got in"
Scenario 2 Kate calls her family " Madeleine has been abducted. A stranger broke in through the shutters that we thought were secure and took her"
What scenario do you think would guarantee the McCanns the least censure ?
Your simplistic question is easy to answer. The latter.
But your simplistic question takes no account of the realities of the situation that night and is therefore not valid.
Your assumption as to what people would think about the window is simply that, an assumption. On finding a window open which you believe was locked a large proportion of the population would naturally assume it had been forced open and even on finding it could be forced open easily would continue to use the term.
The McCanns were facing the Patio doors. The reports suggest they believed that they could monitor that door. Such reports suggest they would not have expected or even thought possible the entry of anyone via that door without their knowledge. Such a belief was clearly naive and the McCanns have since openly admitted that it was. But it nonetheless is what they claim to have believed.
And such a belief accords with the shock they describe on finding the window that they could not see had been in their minds forced open.
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@ Martha
The lie, for that's what it was, was, as I have already said, a holding mechanism, a device to avoid censure. I'm sure they were aware that they would be found out at a later date but I guess they decided they would cross that bridge when they came to it. I believe there was no master plan, that the McCanns found theirselves in a devastating situation and spur of the moment decisions made, some of which still haunt them to this day.
As to what happened that night, I have my theories but without definitive proof it would be unwise to posted them here.
To your question concerning the PJ's questioning, I'm afraid you'd have to ask them that
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@ Martha
The lie, for that's what it was, was, as I have already said, a holding mechanism, a device to avoid censure. I'm sure they were aware that they would be found out at a later date but I guess they decided they would cross that bridge when they came to it. I believe there was no master plan, that the McCanns found theirselves in a devastating situation and spur of the moment decisions made, some of which still haunt them to this day.
As to what happened that night, I have my theories but without definitive proof it would be unwise to posted them here.
To your question concerning the PJ's questioning, I'm afraid you'd have to ask them that
MIndreading again?
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@ gilet
The McCanns had their backs to the patio doors while dining in the tapas bar so had no clear view of them. Of course if you have evidence to the contrary please post .
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The PJ tried to intimidate and fit up the McCanns. They lost all support after that. The witnesses had no reason to assist a Police force abusing its powers.
Mindreading. Where's your evidence for that assertion?
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@ gilet
The McCanns had their backs to the patio doors while dining in the tapas bar so had no clear view of them. Of course if you have evidence to the contrary please post .
OK I concede that point. I believed they were sitting farther apart at the round table and would have had a view.
Nonetheless their belief that the patio doors were visible to members of their party and thus safe remains.
Your correction does not mean that I concede the whole point.
It is still the case that the McCanns have described their shock (perfectly reasonable shock, in my opinion) that the window that could not be seen by them or their friends was found "forced" open when they believed it had been locked.
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It is still the case that the McCanns have described their shock (perfectly reasonable shock, in my opinion) that the window that could not be seen by them or their friends was found "forced" open when they believed it had been locked.
But the McCanns *would* describe that shock even if they were "acting the part", yes? This is the point, when the people upon whom you are relying for information are those who have most to gain from making sure the information given puts them in a reasonable light, you cannot simply take their word for it. This is why us doubters keep asking for corroboration from independent witnesses.
e.g. "Gerry and Dave went out searching on the beach" - who says so...? "Kate McCann". That doesn't count as evidence as it's in her interests for that information to be believed.
Take it to an extreme - remember the Shawshank redemption scene? When Red says he's the only guilty man in shawshank as all the others are innocent? You can't trust the (uncorroborated) words of those who are still not cleared (officially) by either the Portuguese or Leicestershire police forces.
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THere is a difference between observing behaviour and drawing reasonable conclusions ( which I have done) and claiming to know what was in the minds of others (which fishfanny does)
Utter tripe. You're making a sweeping (and very "pro") generalisation again and failing to back it up with any evidence as you constantly squawk for when someone posts something not in favour of the McCanns.
Where's your supporting evidence to back up your claim. Oh I know.... "in the files..."
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If you cannot tell the difference between observing behaviour and asserting that what happened was reasonably inferred fromthe previous behaviour, and pretending you are privy to people's innermost thoughts, then itis not surprising you get so confused.
EXAMPLE
I saw them running down the street and when I saw the bull chasing them I understood the cause. (INFERENCE)
When Isaw him break down crying, I knew that this was because he was thinking of thedeath of hiis mother (MIND READING)
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If you cannot tell the difference between observing behaviour and asserting that what happened was reasonably inferred fromthe previous behaviour, and pretending you are privy to people's innermost thoughts, then itis not surprising you get so confused.
EXAMPLE
I saw them running down the street and when I saw the bull chasing them I understood the cause. (INFERENCE)
When Isaw him break down crying, I knew that this was because he was thinking of thedeath of hiis mother (MIND READING)
Again, utter balls.
What if person A is from wild animal control and is running to get a gun to shoot the bull that's escaped? What if person B is crying at his mother's funeral?
Without all the knowledge, your inference can be as far off the mark as what you call mind reading. As pointed out before, it's all down to the beliefs the reader will entertain. I've seen nothing in what Faithlilly has written that makes me think, "that's implausible" and yet you and your fellow pro-leaning neutrals (ha) will no doubt be frothing at your perceived injustice of her words.
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@ bedbunker
I rest my case.
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Is it truly possible, as we are lead to believe, that the story of the broken, jemmied shutters was a collective misunderstanding by at least four of the McCann's family and friends who had no contact with each other ?
The shutters in these holiday apartments are rarely locked. It is my experience that the locking mechanism on each side is so rarely used that it is more than often seized up.
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I have just had a horrible thought. I manage a holiday property in France, and never once in fifteen years have I ever locked the shutters. And nor does the owner because I have never had to unlock them either. I just roll them down with the inside mechanism.
Shock, Horror.
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@ bedbunker
I rest my case.
Well codc*nt,
THat case would be that you are a no account busybody [ censored word ] with more time than brains.
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Now you have me wondering too Eleanor? I usually go to the bother of locking the ones in our home on the Costa Blanca but I wasn't the last one to use it so my friends might not have been as methodical as I usually am. Shock horror!!
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@ gilet
Kate knew the patio doors were open so what difference did it make that the windows could be opened from the outside ? Anyone with an ounce of sense would assume if the window had been used at all it would be as an exit rather than an entry point so what difference did the fact that the shutters could be lifted make other than to convince relatives they had not been neglectful.
Scenario 1 Kate calls her family " Madeleine has been abducted. We left the patio doors open while we were in the tapas bar and someone got in"
Scenario 2 Kate calls her family " Madeleine has been abducted. A stranger broke in through the shutters that we thought were secure and took her"
What scenario do you think would guarantee the McCanns the least censure ?
Very right, Faithlilly ! Though we understand the scenario 1 was too tough for desperate parents to tell, the scenario 2 generated a collective belief (whether Madeleine was abducted or not).
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Many people confuse the two mechanisms on the vertical shutters. Would someone like to explain them both with photos?
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What rubbish AG
Your big friend Amaral has gone out of his way to say
1) That no abductor could have gone in to 5A via the Patio doors. Too close and overlooked by the Tapas 9
2) Nobody went thru the narrow window because there were no marks on the sill.
3) Neither were there any marks on tha window frame, except amazingly Kates. Astounding that! .... seems almost like it is out of fairy land because every single person would have run straight over to that wuindow, grabbed the frame and peered out looking left, right and below.
There should have been finger prints everywhere. Who do you think cleared them all off but somehow left Kates?
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Now you have me wondering too Eleanor? I usually go to the bother of locking the ones in our home on the Costa Blanca but I wasn't the last one to use it so my friends might not have been as methodical as I usually am. Shock horror!!
Well, you can certainly lift them from the outside because I've seen it done here in France, and none of the neighbours came running to see what the noise was. And I do have to say that they are incredibly "neighbourly" around here, and next door to the holiday property, although no one has ever broken in there.
And I shall have to have a word with The Owners.