UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧

Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on April 07, 2013, 08:15:00 PM

Title: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: John on April 07, 2013, 08:15:00 PM
Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007


In an exclusive interview with The Sun – her first with any newspaper – Jane forcefully hit back at critics who have suggested she is lying.  Amid sobs, she said: "I DID see a man that night carrying away Madeleine...she WAS abducted."

Tears welling in her eyes, she went on: "I wake up to that image ever day. Every day I see him there, striding away, carrying Madeleine and I try desperately to remember more detail, what his face was like. "I think about it over and over again. It’s horrible...Madeleine was adorable. Every day I hope this is the day we find her."

Twisting her Look For Madeleine yellow and green wristbands, Jane, 36, then went into detail about the night of 3 May.  She told how she and the other members of the so-called Tapas Nine had been leaving the restaurant at the complex in Praia da Luz to check their children.

It was on one of her visits to see her two daughters that Jane passed Maddie’s dad Gerry, 39.  He was returning from seeing his children.  Seconds later she saw a man cross from left to right in front of her with a child lolling back in his arms.   Jane said: "It wasn’t unusual to see people with children, even at that time of night. But my attention was drawn to him because the child had bare feet...it was a cold night and I thought that was strange because as a mother I would never have taken my child around at that time without something on their feet or a blanket.  All I could see of the child was their legs dangling...the man was about ten to fifteen feet in front of me and was walking quite quickly and I can remember thinking, 'That’s odd'...but that was all, nothing to make me scream out to make him stop. I never at that time thought it could be Madeleine.  I’d just passed Gerry so I thought his children were all asleep in bed."

Jane carried on to her apartment where she found her daughters were fine so she went back to the tapas bar.  About 15 minutes later her partner Dr Russell O’Brien checked and found one of the girls had been sick so he asked a friend to fetch Jane.  It was while Jane was there that Maddie’s mum Kate, 39, went to see her children at around 10.05pm – and found the girl missing.

Jane said the first she knew was when she looked out of her window and saw the table at the tapas bar was empty. She opened the door and there was commotion.   She said: "I saw all our friends outside shouting. I opened the door and one, Rachael, shouted at me, 'Madeleine’ s gone!' As soon as she said that the image of that man carrying the child came into my head and I felt physically sick.  A feeling of complete horror washed over me."

Minutes later Jane saw Kate. Close to tears, Jane admitted she could not bear to tell her about the man.  She said: "At that time it seemed everyone thought Madeleine was hiding.  I knew that if I told her about the man it would shatter that.  I was also hoping desperately that I’d been wrong.  Instead I took another friend, Fiona, to one side and told her...then, at around 11.15, two policemen arrived and I told them.  Later CID arrived."
Title: Re: Jane Tanners interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on April 07, 2013, 08:17:25 PM
a lot of stories in those days weren't there
Title: Re: Jane Tanners interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: icabodcrane on April 07, 2013, 08:20:15 PM
Are we using  'The Sun'  as a source of reference now
Title: Re: Jane Tanners interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: debunker on April 08, 2013, 07:29:28 AM
Are we using  'The Sun'  as a source of reference now

Using the Sun or other media is trustworthy depending on what is being said and how it is sourced. If someone gives a voluntary interview and doesnot later complain, then that may be seen as a fair view of what that person believed at that point.

WHat is reprehensible is using stories based on biased leaks as indications of truth as HiDeHo regularly does in her videos where the headline or content has been proved very wrong by later facts.
Title: Re: Jane Tanners interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Admin on April 08, 2013, 09:10:02 AM
Are we using  'The Sun'  as a source of reference now

Why ever not?   This interview is an excellent reference as to what a principal witness saw first hand on the night of Madeleine's disappearance.  Statements tend to morph over time and are usually in a language which most people find alien.  A warts and all interview with a Sun reporter on the other hand is something which can provide an interesting insight into what happened that morning.

Having read this article for the very first time, I must say I find it compelling.
Title: Re: Jane Tanners interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Matthew Wyse on April 08, 2013, 09:14:57 AM
Are we using  'The Sun'  as a source of reference now

Why ever not?   This interview is an excellent reference as to what a principal witness saw first hand on the night of Madeleine's disappearance.  Statements tend to morph over time and are usually in a language which most people find alien.  A warts and all interview with a Sun reporter on the other hand is something which can provide an interesting insight into what happened that morning.

Having read this article for the very first time, I must say I find it compelling.


I rarely buy a newpaper except on the very odd occasion admin and I find the article very useful and enlightening.  I have read so much about Jane Tanner, much of it extremely cruel and disgusting, thus I am glad that this has been posted.  It is an excellent interview.   8@??)(  8@??)(
Title: Re: Jane Tanners interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: stephen25000 on April 08, 2013, 09:16:45 AM
Are we using  'The Sun'  as a source of reference now

Why ever not?   This interview is an excellent reference as to what a principal witness saw first hand on the night of Madeleine's disappearance.  Statements tend to morph over time and are usually in a language which most people find alien.  A warts and all interview with a Sun reporter on the other hand is something which can provide an interesting insight into what happened that morning.

Having read this article for the very first time, I must say I find it compelling.


Compelling, a sob story yes.

There is no proof Tanner saw a thing.

As to the Sun, hardly a neutral voice, bearing in mind they have supported the Mccanns throughout and paid for the serialization rights for the book.

Next please.
Title: Re: Jane Tanners interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Admin on April 08, 2013, 09:21:01 AM
Are we using  'The Sun'  as a source of reference now

Why ever not?   This interview is an excellent reference as to what a principal witness saw first hand on the night of Madeleine's disappearance.  Statements tend to morph over time and are usually in a language which most people find alien.  A warts and all interview with a Sun reporter on the other hand is something which can provide an interesting insight into what happened that morning.

Having read this article for the very first time, I must say I find it compelling.


Compelling, a sob story yes.

There is no proof Tanner saw a thing.

As to the Sun, hardly a neutral voice, bearing in mind they have supported the Mccanns throughout and paid for the serialization rights for the book.

Next please.


Just one question Stephen, why on earth would someone concoct such a story given the circumstances and as a consequence open them-self up to criticism such as posted by yourself?
Title: Re: Jane Tanners interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: debunker on April 08, 2013, 09:26:42 AM
Are we using  'The Sun'  as a source of reference now

Why ever not?   This interview is an excellent reference as to what a principal witness saw first hand on the night of Madeleine's disappearance.  Statements tend to morph over time and are usually in a language which most people find alien.  A warts and all interview with a Sun reporter on the other hand is something which can provide an interesting insight into what happened that morning.

Having read this article for the very first time, I must say I find it compelling.



Compelling, a sob story yes.

There is no proof Tanner saw a thing.



As to the Sun, hardly a neutral voice, bearing in mind they have supported the Mccanns throughout and paid for the serialization rights for the book.

Next please.

There can be no proof that she saw anything. But this article does show what she said at the time.

DIfferent weight can be llaced on the value of stories depending upon the circumstances.

YOu are verging on paranoid as well as being grossly biased and hypocritical.
Title: Re: Jane Tanners interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: stephen25000 on April 08, 2013, 09:29:11 AM
Are we using  'The Sun'  as a source of reference now

Why ever not?   This interview is an excellent reference as to what a principal witness saw first hand on the night of Madeleine's disappearance.  Statements tend to morph over time and are usually in a language which most people find alien.  A warts and all interview with a Sun reporter on the other hand is something which can provide an interesting insight into what happened that morning.

Having read this article for the very first time, I must say I find it compelling.


Compelling, a sob story yes.

There is no proof Tanner saw a thing.

As to the Sun, hardly a neutral voice, bearing in mind they have supported the Mccanns throughout and paid for the serialization rights for the book.

Next please.


Just one question Stephen, why on earth would someone concoct such a story given the circumstances and as a consequence open them-self up to criticism such as posted by yourself?

Simple.

To try and give credence to an abduction, for which there is not one smattering of evidence.

Remember all these people left their children unattended whilst in the Tapas Bar.

For that they are tarred with the same brush.

Would you have left children, very young children in such a situation in a country where you were merely a visitor on holiday ?

The irony being of course that G. Mccann and his associate could not remember seeing her there at the time she claimed.
Title: Re: Jane Tanners interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: stephen25000 on April 08, 2013, 09:31:31 AM
Are we using  'The Sun'  as a source of reference now

Why ever not?   This interview is an excellent reference as to what a principal witness saw first hand on the night of Madeleine's disappearance.  Statements tend to morph over time and are usually in a language which most people find alien.  A warts and all interview with a Sun reporter on the other hand is something which can provide an interesting insight into what happened that morning.

Having read this article for the very first time, I must say I find it compelling.



Compelling, a sob story yes.

There is no proof Tanner saw a thing.



As to the Sun, hardly a neutral voice, bearing in mind they have supported the Mccanns throughout and paid for the serialization rights for the book.

Next please.

There can be no proof that she saw anything. But this article does show what she said at the time.

DIfferent weight can be llaced on the value of stories depending upon the circumstances.

YOu are verging on paranoid as well as being grossly biased and hypocritical.


Of course you would say that, I would expect no less.

As to paranoia no, observant yes.
Title: Re: Jane Tanners interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: debunker on April 08, 2013, 09:33:12 AM
Are we using  'The Sun'  as a source of reference now

Why ever not?   This interview is an excellent reference as to what a principal witness saw first hand on the night of Madeleine's disappearance.  Statements tend to morph over time and are usually in a language which most people find alien.  A warts and all interview with a Sun reporter on the other hand is something which can provide an interesting insight into what happened that morning.


Having read this article for the very first time, I must say I find it compelling.


Compelling, a sob story yes.



There is no proof Tanner saw a thing.

As to the Sun, hardly a neutral voice, bearing in mind they have supported the Mccanns throughout and paid for the serialization rights for the book.

Next please.


Just one question Stephen, why on earth would someone concoct such a story given the circumstances and as a consequence open them-self up to criticism such as posted by yourself?



Simple.

To try and give credence to an abduction, for which there is not one smattering of evidence



Remember all these people left their children unattended whilst in the Tapas Bar.

For that they are tarred with the same brush.



Would you have left children, very young children in such a situation in a country where you were merely a visitor on holiday ?

The irony being of course that G. Mccann and his associate could not remember seeing her there at the time she claimed.

ANd that is your whole argument:

"I hate the McCanns and therefore they are guilty; sentence first, trial later."
Title: Re: Jane Tanners interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: stephen25000 on April 08, 2013, 09:37:11 AM
Are we using  'The Sun'  as a source of reference now

Why ever not?   This interview is an excellent reference as to what a principal witness saw first hand on the night of Madeleine's disappearance.  Statements tend to morph over time and are usually in a language which most people find alien.  A warts and all interview with a Sun reporter on the other hand is something which can provide an interesting insight into what happened that morning.


Having read this article for the very first time, I must say I find it compelling.


Compelling, a sob story yes.



There is no proof Tanner saw a thing.

As to the Sun, hardly a neutral voice, bearing in mind they have supported the Mccanns throughout and paid for the serialization rights for the book.

Next please.


Just one question Stephen, why on earth would someone concoct such a story given the circumstances and as a consequence open them-self up to criticism such as posted by yourself?



Simple.

To try and give credence to an abduction, for which there is not one smattering of evidence



Remember all these people left their children unattended whilst in the Tapas Bar.

For that they are tarred with the same brush.



Would you have left children, very young children in such a situation in a country where you were merely a visitor on holiday ?

The irony being of course that G. Mccann and his associate could not remember seeing her there at the time she claimed.

ANd that is your whole argument:

"I hate the McCanns and therefore they are guilty; sentence first, trial later."


You're the one using that language again.

As so often, the 'mccannites' are so predictable.

Title: Re: Jane Tanners interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: debunker on April 08, 2013, 09:52:46 AM
Are we using  'The Sun'  as a source of reference now

Why ever not?   This interview is an excellent reference as to what a principal witness saw first hand on the night of Madeleine's disappearance.  Statements tend to morph over time and are usually in a language which most people find alien.  A warts and all
interview with a Sun reporter on the other hand is something which can provide an interesting insight into what happened that morning.


Having read this article for the very first time, I must say I find it compelling.




Compelling, a sob story yes.



There is no proof Tanner saw a thing.


As to the Sun, hardly a neutral voice, bearing in mind they have supported the Mccanns throughout and paid for the serialization rights for the book.

Next please.




Just one question Stephen, why on earth would someone concoct such a story given the circumstances and as a consequence open them-self up to criticism such as posted by yourself?




Simple.

To try and give credence to an abduction, for which there is not one smattering of evidence




Remember all these people left their children unattended whilst in the Tapas Bar.

For that they are tarred with the same brush.




Would you have left children, very young children in such a situation in a country where you were merely a visitor on holiday ?



The irony being of course that G. Mccann and his associate could not remember seeing her there at the time she claimed.

ANd that is your whole argument:




"I hate the McCanns and therefore they are guilty; sentence first, trial later."




You're the one using that language again.

As so often, the 'mccannites' are so predictable.

It is you exhibiting the bias. I am quite happy to entertain the theory that the McCanns were involved in harming Madeleine, but that there is no convincing evidence for that. I also see no convincing evidence for abduction. I also consider woke and wandered is possible.

NOw, can you honestly say that you give equal credence to the possibility of all three options.

That will be a test of who is neutral!
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: debunker on April 08, 2013, 10:20:46 AM
He won't explain. He never debates.
Title: Re: Jane Tanners interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: faithlilly on April 08, 2013, 11:12:12 AM
Are we using  'The Sun'  as a source of reference now

Why ever not?   This interview is an excellent reference as to what a principal witness saw first hand on the night of Madeleine's disappearance.  Statements tend to morph over time and are usually in a language which most people find alien.  A warts and all interview with a Sun reporter on the other hand is something which can provide an interesting insight into what happened that morning.

Having read this article for the very first time, I must say I find it compelling.

Did we really need a Sun article to to that ? Surely Tanner's statements provide all the relevant information. That, unlike her statements, she is not duty bound to tell the truth makes this little more than propaganda.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: faithlilly on April 08, 2013, 11:19:01 AM
Gerry didn't back up her story because he knew it was a lie and, if found out as such, would impact on his credibility as well.

 I think what people who haven't been to PDL fail to appreciate is how narrow the pavement is on which McCann and Wilkins were standing and the impossibility that Tanner could have passed them with one of the men seeing her. McCann knew that and that is why he was so desperate to put himself on the other side of the road, even if it meant destroying the credibility of his own witness.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: C.Edwards on April 08, 2013, 11:31:45 AM
So Jane Tanner says, "It was on one of her visits to see her two daughters that Jane passed Maddie’s dad Gerry, 39.  He was returning from seeing his children." or, at least, the sun reporter does and by the pros' definition if it's not challenged it's valid.

If, as per her statement, Gerry is standing talking to Jez Wilkins when she passes him (and she fails to mention this in the sun report, or at least the reporter fails to mention it) then how can she know he was returning from seeing his children?  She has no idea if he has been talking for 30 seconds or 10 minutes.  It's pure speculation on her/the Sun's behalf.

Furthermore she says she was "10-15 ft" from the alleged abductor.  Not one of you, not even the great debunker, has picked up on this?

From Gerry McCann's statement:
Gerry McCann - witness statement 04 May 2007, 11.15am

'It is emphasised that one of the members of the group, JANE, at about 21h10/21h15, when she was going to her apartment, to check on her children, saw from the back, at a distance of about 50 metres, on the road bordering the club, an individual carrying a child, wearing pyjamas, JANE will be able to clarify this situation.'

50 metres?  That's complete rubbish too.  Look at Jane Tanner's map she drew: http://www.mccannfiles.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/tannersketch.jpg&target=tlx_piceyb6 (http://www.mccannfiles.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/tannersketch.jpg&target=tlx_piceyb6)  From where she marks herself when she first saw the man, that's about 30-35 feet. Nothing like 10-15.

And "About 15 minutes later her partner Dr Russell O’Brien checked and found one of the girls had been sick so he asked a friend to fetch Jane.  It was while Jane was there that Maddie’s mum Kate, 39, went to see her children at around 10.05pm – and found the girl missing."  Oh REALLY?  amazing how this all differs from the statements but, hey, it's the Sun and if debunker says it's valid then it must be so. Nothing to do with it supporting debunker's position as "neutral", of course...

Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: debunker on April 08, 2013, 11:35:35 AM
Gerry didn't back up her story because he knew it was a lie and, if found out as such, would impact on his credibility as well.

 I think what people who haven't been to PDL fail to appreciate is how narrow the pavement is on which McCann and Wilkins were standing and the impossibility that Tanner could have passed them with one of the men seeing her. McCann knew that and that is why he was so desperate to put himself on the other side of the road, even if it meant destroying the credibility of his own witness.

ARe you able to read minds years after an event?

Your opinion (guesswork) only!
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: debunker on April 08, 2013, 11:39:18 AM
@C.Edwards

Stop misquoting me.

I never said the claims in the Sun were correct, merely thattheycould beassumed to be a broadly correct description of what Tanner actually said to the Sun as she did not complain.

DO you always have this problem with English Comprehension?
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: debunker on April 08, 2013, 11:44:48 AM
It would seem like a very odd decision of Gerry McCann's to "destroy the credibility" of the only person who claims to have seen the abduction in process, if that was the plan they had all cooked up together.

AGreed.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: C.Edwards on April 08, 2013, 11:45:15 AM
@C.Edwards

Stop misquoting me.

I never said the claims in the Sun were correct, merely thattheycould beassumed to be a broadly correct description of what Tanner actually said to the Sun as she did not complain.

DO you always have this problem with English Comprehension?

Oh yeah?

"Using the Sun or other media is trustworthy depending on what is being said and how it is sourced. If someone gives a voluntary interview and doesnot later complain, then that may be seen as a fair view of what that person believed at that point."

it's "trustworthy".  Not "broadly correct".

You have failed (as usual) to actually address the points I made in my post.  Hitching up your skirt in faux outrage isn't debate, is it?  You're a hypocrite.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: faithlilly on April 08, 2013, 11:55:24 AM
Gerry didn't back up her story because he knew it was a lie and, if found out as such, would impact on his credibility as well.

 I think what people who haven't been to PDL fail to appreciate is how narrow the pavement is on which McCann and Wilkins were standing and the impossibility that Tanner could have passed them with one of the men seeing her. McCann knew that and that is why he was so desperate to put himself on the other side of the road, even if it meant destroying the credibility of his own witness.

ARe you able to read minds years after an event?


Your opinion (guesswork) only!

Not guesswork. I have been to PDL several times, have viewed the location at equivalent times and know for certain Tanner could not have passed by McCann and Wilkins, in the position Wilkins and Tanner herself describe, without being seen and in flip flops as she describes, without being heard.

Of course her description of the child's pjs under the sodium lights is whole other debate all of its own.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: xtina on April 08, 2013, 11:58:47 AM
 just think about what we are being asked to believe. Madeleine has been snatched, don't forget Kate knew this instantly maddie has been snatched,

Tanner has witnessed a man carrying a child in the vicinity of the apartment just prior to maddie being discovered gone, and tries to tell us,the sun and the PJ of course, that she waited five hours before she informed the parents for fear of upsetting them.

Why do I have trouble believing this?
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: faithlilly on April 08, 2013, 12:00:03 PM
It would seem like a very odd decision of Gerry McCann's to "destroy the credibility" of the only person who claims to have seen the abduction in process, if that was the plan they had all cooked up together.

AGreed.

But Gerry did so by putting himself on the other side of the road, even though Tanner and Wilkins gave signed statements to a completely different scenario. So do you think Gerry was mistaken in his recollection ?
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: debunker on April 08, 2013, 12:01:10 PM
@faithylilly

I,meant your erroneous claim:

"Gerry didn't back up her story because he knew it was a lie and, if found out as such, would impact on his credibility as well."

That is just guesswork from bias on your part. You could only know that if you could read minds.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: C.Edwards on April 08, 2013, 12:11:34 PM
From DC 1756 Mike Marshall's report re Jez Wilkins:
Quote
As he approached the corner of the McCanns apartment, he saw Gerry appear from the area of the gate. He crossed the road and engaged in general conversation with Gerry. At this time they were stood with Gerry’s back to the building near to the gate and Jeremy facing him. Rua Dr Agostino was about 10 – 15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left.

He was adamant that he did not see any one else in the area. When spoken to in reference to Jane Tanner walking by, he again stated that he saw no one. He also stated that he did not see or hear anyone to his right. He was aware of the recent picture in the papers re the person with a child wrapped in a blanket and in a males arms alledgedly walking across the junction to his right but again stated that he did not see any one.

So he crossed the road to the side with the gate. He stood facing the gate.  He didn't see Tanner.  Yet you pros find this to be perfectly reasonable and not at all suspicious.  So Jez Wilkins is lying?  Or just mistaken?  Easy mistake to make, not seeing a grown woman in flip flops, particularly when his statements refer to details of other people he saw that night.  Hey, maybe he was so into Gerry that he was lost in his eyes and didn't see Tanner flip-slop noisily by only inches away!  That must be it.

Tanner and Wilkins both say they were on the gate side of the road. Gerry McCann is adamant (and has produced his documentary to prove it) that they were on the other side of the road.  Minor discrepancy, of course, but also bears the hallmarks of an invented story.

You are all very, very quick to dismiss things like this as irrelevant when it puts the McCann story in a bad light.  Trouble is, there are so many little discrepancies and anomalies like this that you just end up having to excuse these things over and over again...  it looks desperate.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Eleanor on April 08, 2013, 12:12:18 PM
If Gerry had his back even half turned to her then he might not have seen her.  And I on't suppose that Gez Wilkins actually knew her.  But it's a bit odd that her description, albeit a bit vague, does somewhat match The Smiths, seen not much long after.
It's the fault of The PJ that it had no face.  They couldn't do Side Images, apparently.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: debunker on April 08, 2013, 12:13:52 PM
There are discrepancies of interpretation of statements by both sides.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: C.Edwards on April 08, 2013, 12:14:25 PM
If Gerry had his back even half turned to her then he might not have seen her.  And I on't suppose that Gez Wilkins actually knew her.  But it's a bit odd that her description, albeit a bit vague, does somewhat match The Smiths, seen not much long after.
It's the fault of The PJ that it had no face.  They couldn't do Side Images, apparently.

Why does him not knowing her mean she's invisible?  What a ridiculous statement.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: debunker on April 08, 2013, 12:20:48 PM
If Gerry had his back even half turned to her then he might not have seen her.  And I on't suppose that Gez Wilkins actually knew her.  But it's a bit odd that her description, albeit a bit vague, does somewhat match The Smiths, seen not much long after.
It's the fault of The PJ that it had no face.  They couldn't do Side Images, apparently.

Why does him not knowing her mean she's invisible?  What a ridiculous statement.

Registration of memory is very complicated. Noone has total recall.

THere will always be conflict between statements about the same events, exclusikns anf false inclusions.

If the Portuguese prosecutor could not make a case from the PJ files, what hope is there for a bunch of biased hate filled [ censored word ]s.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: C.Edwards on April 08, 2013, 12:23:04 PM
There are discrepancies of interpretation of statements by both sides.

Is that supposed to count as a debate on the points raised?  You're very, very predictable in how you shy away from inexplicable things that put the McCanns in a bad light. Not just you, either.  These "minor discrepancies" as the pros describe them are the things that have made the police very, very suspicious of the whole McCann story.  I know you choose not to believe that, that's not a problem to me at all. :-)

Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: C.Edwards on April 08, 2013, 12:23:48 PM

If the Portuguese prosecutor could not make a case from the PJ files, what hope is there for a bunch of biased hate filled [ censored word ]s.

Yeah... you're so neutral it hurts.  8(0(*
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: debunker on April 08, 2013, 12:26:49 PM

If the Portuguese prosecutor could not make a case from the PJ files, what hope is there for a bunch of biased hate filled [ censored word ]s.

Yeah... you're so neutral it hurts.  8(0(*

I am neutral between McCann criminality, abduction and woke and wand erred.

I also despise hate filled[ censored word ]s seeking to circumvent individual rights, and most of those are onthe ant-mccann side ofthe debate.

ENd of.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: C.Edwards on April 08, 2013, 12:35:41 PM
End of what? 

I hate sycophantic apologists who fail to understand there is nothing that rules out the McCanns as being involved in the disappearance of Madeleine.  Even the Portuguese authorities and Leicestershire police agree with this.

Yes, abduction was possible. All sorts of things were possible.  Just because no-one comes up with what everyone accepts as a plausible timeline for accidental death doesn't mean it can't have happened. Implausible things happen all the time - even abductions.

Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Eleanor on April 08, 2013, 12:37:08 PM
There are discrepancies of interpretation of statements by both sides.

Is that supposed to count as a debate on the points raised?  You're very, very predictable in how you shy away from inexplicable things that put the McCanns in a bad light. Not just you, either.  These "minor discrepancies" as the pros describe them are the things that have made the police very, very suspicious of the whole McCann story.  I know you choose not to believe that, that's not a problem to me at all. :-)

Okay. Your rite.  Have you told The Portuguese Prosecutor and Scotland Yard?  Can we expect an arrest at any moment?
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: C.Edwards on April 08, 2013, 12:47:08 PM
Okay. Your rite.  Have you told The Portuguese Prosecutor and Scotland Yard?  Can we expect an arrest at any moment?

"your rite"?  Nice work.

I don't need to tell them. They know.  "at any moment"?  Theoretically, yes.  The problem the police have is lack of hard evidence.  They pretty much know what happened, they just know they can't prove it with the evidence they currently have.  Sorry, the ADMISSIBLE evidence they currently have ;-)
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Eleanor on April 08, 2013, 12:51:26 PM
Okay. Your rite.  Have you told The Portuguese Prosecutor and Scotland Yard?  Can we expect an arrest at any moment?

"your rite"?  Nice work.

I don't need to tell them. They know.  "at any moment"?  Theoretically, yes.  The problem the police have is lack of hard evidence.  They pretty much know what happened, they just know they can't prove it with the evidence they currently have.  Sorry, the ADMISSIBLE evidence they currently have ;-)

Oh, Boo Hoo.  Sorry about that.  I thought we might have a Lynching.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: C.Edwards on April 08, 2013, 01:01:34 PM
This is still bugging me... C.Edwards what's your view?

I have no view. I have no idea what Gerry McCann is or isn't trying to achieve by contradicting Tanner and Wilkins' statements.  Maybe in his mind it makes it more plausible that an abduction happened as it places him further from the back gate? History is riddled with criminals that think they know more than the police yet are caught out by stupid lies or invented stories.  I'm not saying that the McCanns fall into that category but it's feasible.  You're assuming there was a collusion involving Tanner, or assuming, at least, that all [ censored word] believe that.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: faithlilly on April 08, 2013, 01:06:32 PM
It would seem like a very odd decision of Gerry McCann's to "destroy the credibility" of the only person who claims to have seen the abduction in process, if that was the plan they had all cooked up together.

AGreed.

But Gerry did so by putting himself on the other side of the road, even though Tanner and Wilkins gave signed
statements to a completely different scenario. So do you think Gerry was mistaken in his recollection ?

Well what other explanation is there?  You seem to prefer the explanation that fellow co-conspirators were intent on destroying each other's credibility.   What do you think their rationale was for that?

So you believe Gerry was wrong in his recollection and that he was on the apartment side of the road which involved the impossibility of Tanner passing without either man having seen her ?
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: faithlilly on April 08, 2013, 01:14:13 PM
If Gerry had his back even half turned to her then he might not have seen her.  And I on't suppose that Gez Wilkins actually knew her.  But it's a bit odd that her description, albeit a bit vague, does somewhat match The Smiths, seen not much long after.
It's the fault of The PJ that it had no face.  They couldn't do Side Images, apparently.


No matter which way you place them, either McCann or Wilkins would have seen and heard Tanner pass unless, of course, they were on the other side of the road. Gerry knew this and sacrificed the only witness to the abductions credibility to rescue his own.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: debunker on April 08, 2013, 01:17:51 PM
If Gerry had his back even half turned to her then he might not have seen her.  And I on't suppose that Gez Wilkins actually knew her.  But it's a bit odd that her description, albeit a bit vague, does somewhat match The Smiths, seen not much long after.
It's the fault of The PJ that it had no face.  They couldn't do Side Images, apparently.


No matter which way you place them, either McCann or Wilkins would have seen and heard Tanner pass unless, of course, they were on the other side of the road. Gerry knew this and sacrificed the only witness to the abductions credibility to rescue his own.

Mind reading again.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: faithlilly on April 08, 2013, 01:52:43 PM
@ Debunker

Not mind reading just a sensible appraisal of the known facts

@ Martha

Saving their own skin ?
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: debunker on April 08, 2013, 01:58:08 PM
@ Debunker

Not mind reading just a sensible appraisal of the known facts

@ Martha

Saving their own skin ?

I am talking about clear facts that are rejected by [ censored word]:

Eddie reacts only to cadaver odor, not blood.
Evidence was found of Madeleine's DNA in the Scenic
Scent dogs never alert falsely
Errors instatements are necessarily lies,
There was sufficient evidence to charge the McCanns with any criminal offence,

And so on.

Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: faithlilly on April 08, 2013, 02:50:26 PM
It seems your comprehension isn't what it should be so I'll explain more fully.

Tanner agreed ( and until we know the full story we can only guess why ) to say she saw Gerry talking to Wilkins just before she saw a man with a child walking away from the direction of the apartments. The story was detailed in the timeline agreed by the group, including Tanner and the McCanns, and was handed into the PJ on the 10th of May. On the same day Gerry was questioned and no doubt having been made aware that the PJ were sceptical of his claim that he didn't see Tanner while talking to Wilkins, added veracity to it by saying he had crossed over to the other side of the road therefore making the scenario more plausible. Of course if Tanner was then found out to be liar in the future he would also have distanced himself from her lie as he had not claimed to have seen her.

Tanner didn't try to save her own skin, she was metaphorically thrown under the nearest bus by her supposed friend Gerald McCann.

Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: C.Edwards on April 08, 2013, 02:58:47 PM
It seems your comprehension isn't what it should be so I'll explain more fully.

Tanner agreed ( and until we know the full story we can only guess why ) to say she saw Gerry talking to Wilkins just before she saw a man with a child walking away from the direction of the apartments. The story was detailed in the timeline agreed by the group, including Tanner and the McCanns, and was handed into the PJ on the 10th of May. On the same day Gerry was questioned and no doubt having been made aware that the PJ were sceptical of his claim that he didn't see Tanner while talking to Wilkins, added veracity to it by saying he had crossed over to the other side of the road therefore making the scenario more plausible. Of course if Tanner was then found out to be liar in the future he would also have distanced himself from her lie as he had not claimed to have seen her.

Tanner didn't try to save her own skin, she was metaphorically thrown under the nearest bus by her supposed friend Gerald McCann.

Mindreading again.

Just saving debunker the effort this time. ;-)


(It's a very plausible explanation to me, but none of the pros will buy it Faithlilly.)
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: debunker on April 08, 2013, 03:07:45 PM
It seems your comprehension isn't what it should be so I'll explain more fully.

Tanner agreed ( and until we know the full story we can only guess why ) to say she saw Gerry talking to Wilkins just before she saw a man with a child walking away from the direction of the apartments. The story was detailed in the timeline agreed by the group, including Tanner and the McCanns, and was handed into the PJ on the 10th of May. On the same day Gerry was questioned and no doubt having been made aware that the PJ were sceptical of his claim that he didn't see Tanner while talking to Wilkins, added veracity to it by saying he had crossed over to the other side of the road therefore making the scenario more plausible. Of course if Tanner was then found out to be liar in the future he would also have distanced himself from her lie as he had not claimed to have seen her.



Tanner didn't try to save her own skin, she was metaphorically thrown under the nearest bus by her supposed friend Gerald McCann.

Mindreading again.



Just saving debunker the effort this time. ;-)


(It's a very plausible explanation to me, but none of the pros will buy it Faithlilly.)

Because itrequires knowledge that is impossible to acquire- mindreading.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: faithlilly on April 08, 2013, 03:08:12 PM
I know CE. That's the thing with closed minds :0(
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: faithlilly on April 08, 2013, 03:20:09 PM
@ debunker

I'd be interested to hear if you think McCann's recollection of having crossed over the road to talk to Wilkins is correct even though two separate witnesses contradict it and if you believe  McCann's recollection is wrong how does that impact on the fact McCann or Wilkins didn't see Tanner on a very narrow piece of pavement when one of them must have been facing ?
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: faithlilly on April 08, 2013, 03:21:14 PM
@ Martha

At or near the apartment gate, just like Tanner.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: faithlilly on April 08, 2013, 03:23:08 PM

Nope.  Still as clear as mud to me - your theory makes little sense as it doesn't begin to adequately explain why Gerry would seek to discredit his friend who had agreed to go along with the supposed deception.  If Gerry HAD claimed he'd seen her, and it could somehow have been proven that it couldn't have been Jane at a later date then he could simply have said "oh, I must have been mistaken, must've been on another occasion or it was a woman who looked like JT, it was dusk, blah blah blah)".    By the way where did Jez Wilkins say he and Gerry talked?
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: faithlilly on April 08, 2013, 03:26:20 PM
@ Martha

Everyone with an ounce of sense seems to understand my reasoning, even if they don't agree, so I'm afraid I'd be wasting my time explaining things any further to you.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: faithlilly on April 08, 2013, 03:26:49 PM
@ Martha

At or near the apartment gate, just like Tanner.

So, how did JT know where Gerry and Wilkins were chatting if she was never there?

Perhaps Gerry told her eh 8)-)))
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: John on April 08, 2013, 04:30:47 PM
Isn't it strange how the most unlikely occurrences sometimes turn out to be the truth.  Good points by the way in relation to why Gerry didn't see Jane Tanner.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: faithlilly on April 08, 2013, 05:20:39 PM
@ Martha

The lying with regard to where McCann was standing was done when, I assume, it was pointed out to him by the PJ how unbelievable it was he  didn't see Tanner and he had no other choice. He certainly agreed on the 10th May timeline that he was standing just up from the apartment gate.

Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: John on April 08, 2013, 05:24:51 PM
@ Martha

The lying with regard to where McCann was standing was done when, I assume, it was pointed out to him by the PJ how unbelievable it was he  didn't see Tanner and he had no other choice. He certainly agreed on the 10th May timeline that he was standing just up from the apartment gate.

It is quite understandable that he did not see Tanner that night.  Why should he?

They never conversed, they never acknowledged each other?   Gerry was simply engrossed in a conversation with a friend.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: faithlilly on April 08, 2013, 06:20:27 PM
@ John and Martha

Why when faced with the fact that the two other witness there on the night both said that Gerry was on the other side of the road did he not just admit that he must have been mistaken ? Why undermine the whole testimony of his main witness, on camera, by adamantly sticking to his version of the story ?
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: faithlilly on April 08, 2013, 06:29:17 PM
@ John and Martha

Why when faced with the fact that the two other witness there on the night both said that Gerry was on the other side of the road did he not just admit that he must have been mistaken ? Why undermine the whole testimony of his main witness, on camera, by adamantly sticking to his version of the story ?

Hey, that's pretty much MY question!  Care to answer?

You know my answer now are you going to answer or just keep stalling ?
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Gadfly1.3 on April 07, 2016, 02:39:33 PM
Enjoyed reading through this old thread.

Given that things have moved on a little since, vis-a-vis Crimewatch, does anyone have any additional thoughts?

Two points from me:

1) Two witnesses -- Jane Tanner and Jeremy Wilkins -- both saw Gerry McCann on the street that night.  Jeremy Wilkins was never regarded, by the PJ, as having any involvement in Madeleine's removal from 5A.
2) The man Jane Tanner identified -- has now been found by SY -- wearing 'uncannily similar' clothing on the night.  SY ruled out his potential involvement with Madeleine's removal from 5A.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 07, 2016, 06:24:10 PM
" Minutes later Jane saw Kate. Close to tears, Jane admitted she could not bear to tell her about the man.  She said: "At that time it seemed everyone thought Madeleine was hiding.  I knew that if I told her about the man it would shatter that.  I was also hoping desperately that I’d been wrong.  Instead I took another friend, Fiona, to one side and told her...then, at around 11.15, two policemen arrived and I told them.  Later CID arrived."

So we have two people who claim that they knew Maddie was abducted right away!

1. Why did Jane Tanner NOT scream at the Man (abductor) hey what you doing with Madeleine? and sought help from Gerry and Jes who were in the street? AND WHY WAIT UNTIL an hour and 15 minutes to tell the police a child was abducted? Seriously? come on. She saw a man OK,let's accept that, but did she see a stranger abductor running away with Maddie and not say anything?  pppft

Yes so asking Jane  WHY not alert someone that Maddie was being abducted by a stranger? oh yes reasonable answer is because you never witnessed Maddie being abducted by a stranger did you dearie?

2. Kate knew right away with the whooshing curtains,open window,jemmied shutters but didn't scream 'someone has abducted our daughter  help, help, someone call the police!!!!!!  oh, yes ,that's right they thought she was hiding..hmmmm
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Carana on April 07, 2016, 07:34:17 PM
" Minutes later Jane saw Kate. Close to tears, Jane admitted she could not bear to tell her about the man.  She said: "At that time it seemed everyone thought Madeleine was hiding.  I knew that if I told her about the man it would shatter that.  I was also hoping desperately that I’d been wrong.  Instead I took another friend, Fiona, to one side and told her...then, at around 11.15, two policemen arrived and I told them.  Later CID arrived."

So we have two people who claim that they knew Maddie was abducted right away!

1. Why did Jane Tanner NOT scream at the Man (abductor) hey what you doing with Madeleine? and sought help from Gerry and Jes who were in the street? AND WHY WAIT UNTIL an hour and 15 minutes to tell the police a child was abducted? Seriously? come on. She saw a man OK,let's accept that, but did she see a stranger abductor running away with Maddie and not say anything?  pppft

Yes so asking Jane  WHY not alert someone that Maddie was being abducted by a stranger? oh yes reasonable answer is because you never witnessed Maddie being abducted by a stranger did you dearie?

2. Kate knew right away with the whooshing curtains,open window,jemmied shutters but didn't scream 'someone has abducted our daughter  help, help, someone call the police!!!!!!  oh, yes ,that's right they thought she was hiding..hmmmm

Where does your quote come from?

Jane has said that it didn't occur to her that the person she saw carrying a child could have been Madeleine at the time - there was no reason to. It was only after she found out that Madeleine had disappeared that she thought that she might have witnessed something significant.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 07, 2016, 07:44:07 PM
Where does your quote come from?

Jane has said that it didn't occur to her that the person she saw carrying a child could have been Madeleine at the time - there was no reason to. It was only after she found out that Madeleine had disappeared that she thought that she might have witnessed something significant.

 Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007


In an exclusive interview with The Sun – her first with any newspaper – Jane forcefully hit back at critics who have suggested she is lying.  Amid sobs, she said: "I DID see a man that night carrying away Madeleine...she WAS abducted."

Tears welling in her eyes, she went on: "I wake up to that image ever day. Every day I see him there, striding away, carrying Madeleine and I try desperately to remember more detail, what his face was like. "I think about it over and over again."


So where were we? ah yes her interview where she claims she saw Maddie being carried away.  Now maybe I read this wrong but how did she know it was Maddie at all? could it be to protect her friends for leaving a door unlocked and Maddie waking up- just wandering off... No, my bad for even thinking that!
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Brietta on April 07, 2016, 09:15:22 PM
Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007


In an exclusive interview with The Sun – her first with any newspaper – Jane forcefully hit back at critics who have suggested she is lying.  Amid sobs, she said: "I DID see a man that night carrying away Madeleine...she WAS abducted."

Tears welling in her eyes, she went on: "I wake up to that image ever day. Every day I see him there, striding away, carrying Madeleine and I try desperately to remember more detail, what his face was like. "I think about it over and over again."


So where were we? ah yes her interview where she claims she saw Maddie being carried away.  Now maybe I read this wrong but how did she know it was Maddie at all? could it be to protect her friends for leaving a door unlocked and Maddie waking up- just wandering off... No, my bad for even thinking that!

Only when she was told Madeleine was missing did she relate the man and child she had seen to the abduction.  She did not know at the time she saw them ... if she had, why would she not have shouted for assistance from the two men she had just passed?
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: mercury on April 07, 2016, 09:28:55 PM
Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007


In an exclusive interview with The Sun – her first with any newspaper – Jane forcefully hit back at critics who have suggested she is lying.  Amid sobs, she said: "I DID see a man that night carrying away Madeleine...she WAS abducted."

Tears welling in her eyes, she went on: "I wake up to that image ever day. Every day I see him there, striding away, carrying Madeleine and I try desperately to remember more detail, what his face was like. "I think about it over and over again."


So where were we? ah yes her interview where she claims she saw Maddie being carried away.  Now maybe I read this wrong but how did she know it was Maddie at all? could it be to protect her friends for leaving a door unlocked and Maddie waking up- just wandering off... No, my bad for even thinking that!

She didnt see Madeleine, she saw a pair of feet

As she described in the Panorama programme in the same month and year as that pitiful Sun write up

Then again, she had also said in their joint statement of 10 May to the PJ  she sort of saw the childs top and it was pinky...you never know what exactly she did see about the child...
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Gadfly1.3 on April 07, 2016, 10:25:08 PM
Interesting thoughts.

So to sum up - in any case, she didn't see Madeleine (SY have 'almost certainly' ruled that out and the British tourist felt it was him and his young daughter). 

So the only person she did see was Gerry, and Jeremy, and the British tourist.

If it ever goes to Court -- Jayne would testify Gerry was at the gate entry to 5A, Jeremy Wilkins would say the same. 

Not sure if that has any relevance to anything, but 9 years on from The Sun article, the whole Tanner contribution to this case has been greatly diminished. 
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: faithlilly on April 07, 2016, 11:35:08 PM
Interesting thoughts.

So to sum up - in any case, she didn't see Madeleine (SY have 'almost certainly' ruled that out and the British tourist felt it was him and his young daughter). 

So the only person she did see was Gerry, and Jeremy, and the British tourist.

If it ever goes to Court -- Jayne would testify Gerry was at the gate entry to 5A, Jeremy Wilkins would say the same. 

Not sure if that has any relevance to anything, but 9 years on from The Sun article, the whole Tanner contribution to this case has been greatly diminished.

If it ever did go to court and the jury heard Gerry and Jeremy Wilkins deny seeing Tanner on that narrow street I think her credibility would be completely shot TBH.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: ferryman on April 07, 2016, 11:38:19 PM
If it ever did go to court and the jury heard Gerry and Jeremy Wilkins deny seeing Tanner on that narrow street I think her credibility would be completely shot TBH.

Not if the witness who acknowledged being the person Jane Tanner saw turned up in court to testify ....
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: faithlilly on April 07, 2016, 11:54:00 PM
Not if the witness who acknowledged being the person Jane Tanner saw turned up in court to testify ....

And only if a jury were silly enough to believe that individual had kept all his and his child's clothes from six years previously.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: mercury on April 08, 2016, 12:11:54 AM
Alot of people keep kids clothes for years, many dont remember though what they or themselves were wearing on a specific day...

then agan we read in one of the papers that this man filled in a questionnaire early on for leicester police...something which, once agan, seems to have been hidden or "lost"  somewhere for years
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Brietta on April 08, 2016, 12:41:40 AM
Interesting thoughts.

So to sum up - in any case, she didn't see Madeleine (SY have 'almost certainly' ruled that out and the British tourist felt it was him and his young daughter). 

So the only person she did see was Gerry, and Jeremy, and the British tourist.

If it ever goes to Court -- Jayne would testify Gerry was at the gate entry to 5A, Jeremy Wilkins would say the same. 

Not sure if that has any relevance to anything, but 9 years on from The Sun article, the whole Tanner contribution to this case has been greatly diminished.

 I'm not quite sure that I follow your reasoning here ... Jane Tanner is a witness who saw a child being carried away from the place from which a child disappeared.
What do you think she should have done when she discovered that situation?
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Brietta on April 08, 2016, 12:43:50 AM
She didnt see Madeleine, she saw a pair of feet

As she described in the Panorama programme in the same month and year as that pitiful Sun write up

Then again, she had also said in their joint statement of 10 May to the PJ  she sort of saw the childs top and it was pinky...you never know what exactly she did see about the child...

Do you think she shouldn't have bothered then?
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Gadfly1.3 on April 08, 2016, 12:50:56 AM
I'm not quite sure that I follow your reasoning here ... Jane Tanner is a witness who saw a child being carried away from the place from which a child disappeared.
What do you think she should have done when she discovered that situation?

Jane Tanner is a witness -- a witness to a few things.  First, she saw Gerry McCann at the gate of 5A.  At the same time, she saw Jeremy Wilkins.  And third, she saw a man who has now been identified and ruled out.

The only thing Jane Tanner should have done differently is -- when she gave her statement, to have talked ONLY about what she saw, and not about what others allegedly saw or did.  Apart from that, what is there to criticise?

A lot of people have said disparaging things about Jane.  For example, there are those who question how her memory became progressively better.  There are those who ask questions about her conduct during the Robert Murat ID appointment and the subsequent rotatory interview exploring that.  There are those who believe she wrongly identified 'George' as the man she saw to the private investigators (ruled out later).  And there is the voice analysis expert who analysed her vocal replies during her interview with private detectives, and believed her not to be a credible witness.

But I'm not criticising her for any of that.  Thanks for the question.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Brietta on April 08, 2016, 01:32:22 AM
Jane Tanner is a witness -- a witness to a few things.  First, she saw Gerry McCann at the gate of 5A.  At the same time, she saw Jeremy Wilkins.  And third, she saw a man who has now been identified and ruled out.

The only thing Jane Tanner should have done differently is -- when she gave her statement, to have talked ONLY about what she saw, and not about what others allegedly saw or did.  Apart from that, what is there to criticise?

A lot of people have said disparaging things about Jane.  For example, there are those who question how her memory became progressively better.  There are those who ask questions about her conduct during the Robert Murat ID appointment and the subsequent rotatory interview exploring that.  There are those who believe she wrongly identified 'George' as the man she saw to the private investigators (ruled out later).  And there is the voice analysis expert who analysed her vocal replies during her interview with private detectives, and believed her not to be a credible witness.

But I'm not criticising her for any of that.  Thanks for the question.

Thanks for the answer.

Who is 'George'?
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: misty on April 08, 2016, 02:23:11 AM
Thanks for the answer.

Who is 'George'?

He's the market trader put under surveillance fro a few months by Halligen's team - nicknamed George because of his vague resemblance to George Harrison. It was reported on in the Documentary about Halligen.
https://www.my5.tv/movie/92070
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Brietta on April 08, 2016, 02:24:31 AM
Jane Tanner is a witness -- a witness to a few things.  First, she saw Gerry McCann at the gate of 5A.  At the same time, she saw Jeremy Wilkins.  And third, she saw a man who has now been identified and ruled out.

The only thing Jane Tanner should have done differently is -- when she gave her statement, to have talked ONLY about what she saw, and not about what others allegedly saw or did.  Apart from that, what is there to criticise?

A lot of people have said disparaging things about Jane.  For example, there are those who question how her memory became progressively better.  There are those who ask questions about her conduct during the Robert Murat ID appointment and the subsequent rotatory interview exploring that.  There are those who believe she wrongly identified 'George' as the man she saw to the private investigators (ruled out later).  And there is the voice analysis expert who analysed her vocal replies during her interview with private detectives, and believed her not to be a credible witness.

But I'm not criticising her for any of that.  Thanks for the question.

You say in your post ... "Jane Tanner is a witness -- a witness to a few things.  First, she saw Gerry McCann at the gate of 5A.  At the same time, she saw Jeremy Wilkins.  And third, she saw a man who has now been identified and ruled out.

The only thing Jane Tanner should have done differently is -- when she gave her statement, to have talked ONLY about what she saw, and not about what others allegedly saw or did.  Apart from that, what is there to criticise?"


Not quite at the gate of 5A ... more towards the opening to the lane at the back of 5A ... assuming that Jez Wilkin's statement is correct.
The man she saw when she had passed the two men may have been identified and ruled out in 2013 ... but he is still very much the man she saw in 2007.

You have absolutely no idea what Jane Tanner said in her initial statement to the police ... so where are you getting the information from that she talked about what others allegedly saw or did?
Since that is your point of criticism ... may we have a cite, please.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Brietta on April 08, 2016, 02:28:57 AM
He's the market trader put under surveillance fro a few months by Halligen's team - nicknamed George because of his vague resemblance to George Harrison. It was reported on in the Documentary about Halligen.
https://www.my5.tv/movie/92070

Thanks Misty.

Not going to revisit the Halligen video at the moment ... but was that not something to do with a very unprofessionally conducted interview with Jane which was so bad it was unusable?
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: misty on April 08, 2016, 02:32:05 AM
Thanks Misty.

Not going to revisit the Halligen video at the moment ... but was that not something to do with a very unprofessionally conducted interview with Jane which was so bad it was unusable?

LOL, yes. Amongst other things, I believe an "expert" voice analyst decreed JT was untruthful.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Brietta on April 08, 2016, 02:35:28 AM
Jane Tanner is a witness -- a witness to a few things.  First, she saw Gerry McCann at the gate of 5A.  At the same time, she saw Jeremy Wilkins.  And third, she saw a man who has now been identified and ruled out.

The only thing Jane Tanner should have done differently is -- when she gave her statement, to have talked ONLY about what she saw, and not about what others allegedly saw or did.  Apart from that, what is there to criticise?

A lot of people have said disparaging things about Jane.  For example, there are those who question how her memory became progressively better.  There are those who ask questions about her conduct during the Robert Murat ID appointment and the subsequent rotatory interview exploring that.  There are those who believe she wrongly identified 'George' as the man she saw to the private investigators (ruled out later).  And there is the voice analysis expert who analysed her vocal replies during her interview with private detectives, and believed her not to be a credible witness.

But I'm not criticising her for any of that.  Thanks for the question.

You say ... "A lot of people have said disparaging things about Jane.  For example, there are those who question how her memory became progressively better. "

In what way did her memory become progressively better?

Just as I had no idea who "George" was without a cite.  I have no idea to what you are referring as regards Jane Tanner's memory.
Might be a courtesy to provide a cite to back up your statement.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Brietta on April 08, 2016, 02:39:11 AM
LOL, yes. Amongst other things, I believe an "expert" voice analyst decreed JT was untruthful.

Lord preserve us from body language 'experts' and 'expert' voice analysts not to mention 'expert' profilers.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Brietta on April 08, 2016, 02:49:38 AM
Jane Tanner is a witness -- a witness to a few things.  First, she saw Gerry McCann at the gate of 5A.  At the same time, she saw Jeremy Wilkins.  And third, she saw a man who has now been identified and ruled out.

The only thing Jane Tanner should have done differently is -- when she gave her statement, to have talked ONLY about what she saw, and not about what others allegedly saw or did.  Apart from that, what is there to criticise?

A lot of people have said disparaging things about Jane.  For example, there are those who question how her memory became progressively better.  There are those who ask questions about her conduct during the Robert Murat ID appointment and the subsequent rotatory interview exploring that.  There are those who believe she wrongly identified 'George' as the man she saw to the private investigators (ruled out later).  And there is the voice analysis expert who analysed her vocal replies during her interview with private detectives, and believed her not to be a credible witness.

But I'm not criticising her for any of that.  Thanks for the question.

It is interesting that you raise the issue of ... "There are those who ask questions about her conduct during the Robert Murat ID appointment and the subsequent rotatory interview exploring that."

What exactly is your take on the concerns of "those who ask questions" about the setting up of Robert Murat's ID solo parade?

Have you any idea at all what their questions may consist of?

I ask only because your mentioning of it would suggest it holds a particular interest for you.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 08, 2016, 12:05:49 PM
Tannerman being blamed. That man is innocent and cleared by SY. This proves why he is still on the McCanns site. Smithman gets away and Patsy gets the blame.

Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 08, 2016, 12:29:50 PM
Lord preserve us from body language 'experts' and 'expert' voice analysts not to mention 'expert' profilers.

Would that remark encompass Dr Sharon Leal ?
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Gadfly1.3 on April 08, 2016, 07:34:42 PM
You say ... "A lot of people have said disparaging things about Jane.  For example, there are those who question how her memory became progressively better. "

In what way did her memory become progressively better?

Just as I had no idea who "George" was without a cite.  I have no idea to what you are referring as regards Jane Tanner's memory.
Might be a courtesy to provide a cite to back up your statement.


Hi Brietta -- I'll respond to another point of yours.  You asked, what is the evidence for Jane Tanner's memory becoming progressively better.

This was the e-fit she produced after her initial interview.  She later said in her rotatory:

"4078    “I know this seems like an obvious question, which I think I know the answer to, because I’ve seen the artist’s impression, did you see the man’s face?”
Reply    “No, no, not, no, I mean, just the hair, well not, not that I could remember to give details.”.
Cite: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm

That is entirely consistent with the e-fit she produced at first (below), and even the later e-fit.  It also ties in with her initial statement, so all is fine there.

(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/photofit_small.jpg)

BUT....

If in her initial interview, she was adamant she could not see a face.  And if in a later e-fit, she confirmed that she couldn't see the face again... why did she then make a positive ID from a facial pic?

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/10/15/article-2460669-18BD73CB00000578-492_636x382.jpg)

Her memory improved to the extent that she was secretly recorded identifying a man -- from a facial shot -- with the language "that is the man that I saw carrying the child."  -- confirmed by Tim-Craig Harvey, who was paid by the McCanns to coordinate the private investigation.  A voice analyst, also paid by the McCanns also noted with regard to her memory: 'the more she had to describe him, the more accurate she became.'

Cite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vphKz-Xjbn0 (From 15 minutes exactly to 16.15).

So to sum
May 2007 -- initially after Madeleine was removed from 5A -- no ability to recognise a face.
During the private investigation -- secretly recorded identifying a man as the man she saw via his face.

--

I'll end on this note. Jane Tanner said during her rotatory interview that: "the best thing that could happen to me, apart from Madeleine being found, is somebody coming up and saying ‘That was me’, you know, ‘That was me walking across there." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

Scotland Yard did find that man.  He did come forward.  Everything about him tied in with Jane said - so she can relax about that now.  SY know she didn't obstruct the course of justice or anything like that. Her eye-witness account can now be corroborated, so we should thank her for being so alert that night.  They know the child wasn't Madeleine.  So Jane simply becomes a witness to the other thing she saw -- Gerry and Jeremy's conversation.  Near the gate of 5A.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 08, 2016, 07:59:51 PM
Only when she was told Madeleine was missing did she relate the man and child she had seen to the abduction.  She did not know at the time she saw them ... if she had, why would she not have shouted for assistance from the two men she had just passed?

Indeed, that is what I said! why did she not say at the time of finding out Maddie was missing- she waited a very long time-until the police came to mention it. Why waste precious time keeping that to herself, they were searching for a missing child not a man carrying a  child, she could have told someone if she thought it was a child being abducted to which she later confirmed it was a man abducting Maddie whom she saw. a main witness to an abduction. Well she WAS. not any more.
 
What she saw was a man carrying a child not an 'abductor carrying Maddie' talk about a wild goose chase. None of this makes any sense at all.

And those of us who refused to believe she saw Maddie being abducted were proved correct not to buy that story.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Brietta on April 08, 2016, 10:16:00 PM
Indeed, that is what I said! why did she not say at the time of finding out Maddie was missing- she waited a very long time-until the police came to mention it. Why waste precious time keeping that to herself, they were searching for a missing child not a man carrying a  child, she could have told someone if she thought it was a child being abducted to which she later confirmed it was a man abducting Maddie whom she saw. a main witness to an abduction. Well she WAS. not any more.
 
What she saw was a man carrying a child not an 'abductor carrying Maddie' talk about a wild goose chase. None of this makes any sense at all.

And those of us who refused to believe she saw Maddie being abducted were proved correct not to buy that story.

You will have a cite for "why did she not say at the time of finding out Maddie was missing- she waited a very long time-until the police came to mention it."

Thankyou
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Brietta on April 09, 2016, 12:01:22 AM

Hi Brietta -- I'll respond to another point of yours.  You asked, what is the evidence for Jane Tanner's memory becoming progressively better.

This was the e-fit she produced after her initial interview.  She later said in her rotatory:

"4078    “I know this seems like an obvious question, which I think I know the answer to, because I’ve seen the artist’s impression, did you see the man’s face?”
Reply    “No, no, not, no, I mean, just the hair, well not, not that I could remember to give details.”.
Cite: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm

That is entirely consistent with the e-fit she produced at first (below), and even the later e-fit.  It also ties in with her initial statement, so all is fine there.

(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/photofit_small.jpg)

BUT....

If in her initial interview, she was adamant she could not see a face.  And if in a later e-fit, she confirmed that she couldn't see the face again... why did she then make a positive ID from a facial pic?

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/10/15/article-2460669-18BD73CB00000578-492_636x382.jpg)

Her memory improved to the extent that she was secretly recorded identifying a man -- from a facial shot -- with the language "that is the man that I saw carrying the child."  -- confirmed by Tim-Craig Harvey, who was paid by the McCanns to coordinate the private investigation.  A voice analyst, also paid by the McCanns also noted with regard to her memory: 'the more she had to describe him, the more accurate she became.'

Cite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vphKz-Xjbn0 (From 15 minutes exactly to 16.15).

So to sum
May 2007 -- initially after Madeleine was removed from 5A -- no ability to recognise a face.
During the private investigation -- secretly recorded identifying a man as the man she saw via his face.

--

I'll end on this note. Jane Tanner said during her rotatory interview that: "the best thing that could happen to me, apart from Madeleine being found, is somebody coming up and saying ‘That was me’, you know, ‘That was me walking across there." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

Scotland Yard did find that man.  He did come forward.  Everything about him tied in with Jane said - so she can relax about that now.  SY know she didn't obstruct the course of justice or anything like that. Her eye-witness account can now be corroborated, so we should thank her for being so alert that night.  They know the child wasn't Madeleine.  So Jane simply becomes a witness to the other thing she saw -- Gerry and Jeremy's conversation.  Near the gate of 5A.

Jane Tanner was consistent and concise in each witness statement she provided.

The illustration is of the man she saw and the clothes he was wearing ... and as can be gleaned from the rogatory statement, the Portuguese were unable to assist at the time.

(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/zzabductord.jpg)

 ... but I think I’d prefer just to stick with what I said in my original statement, in terms of the, because even, I mean, this is coming back to the sketch, even when I did the sketch, by that stage, you know, things were, were murky,I needed to that sketch that first night, I mean, they took me in to do the sketch, but they only had, erm, front facing software, so you know, and at that point I said, you know, is there, can I do, because the clothes and everything was the thing was the thing that was the most in my mind then and I can remember saying to the chap I met on the stairs earlier, I think it’s (inaudible), is it?”
4078    “Yeah”.
Reply    “Because he took me in the car back and forth and I can remember saying to him on the way back ‘Look, is there a way I can do a sketch with clothes, you know, do you have software or any way that I can do a sketch of the clothes or a side, a side view’.  And he sort of said ‘No, we don’t have that feasible, you know, feasibility or availability’.  And I said then ‘Can I do that when I go back to the UK’, you know, because at that point it was in my head and it would have been, and they were the bits that I think would have been recognisable to get down on paper.  But at that point it was like ‘Oh no, we can’t do that, we don’t work in that way’. Which I can understand and, you know, now obviously I think ‘Oh I should have pushed and really pushed’, but at that point you rely on, you don’t, you know, you’re just in such shock and you just think ‘Okay that’s the way things do’, but”.
4078    “Yeah”.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm



I think you are mistaken when you state ...  "Her memory improved to the extent that she was secretly recorded identifying a man -- from a facial shot -- with the language "that is the man that I saw carrying the child."
Cite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vphKz-Xjbn0 (From 15 minutes exactly to 16.15)

I heard a man saying " she was then presented with a photograph of this guy George in a market at which point she broke down and said "that is the guy that I saw carrying the child."

I did not hear Jane Tanner saying it nor have I found confirmation elsewhere that she did although it is possible she may have recognised a profile ... do you have a definite cite as the youtube video definitely won't do.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Gadfly1.3 on April 09, 2016, 12:36:24 AM
Do you have a cite?

Tim Craig-Harvey, who expressed his sympathy for the McCanns, was paid indirectly by the McCanns to organise the private investigation, and then later spoke out in a nationally-aired television documentary The McCanns And The Con Man -- stating he heard Jane Tanner say those very words.  The YouTube video is that documentary that is also available via an official source at: http://www.channel5.com/show/the-man-who-conned-the-mccanns

Just to sum-up.
1) The man Jane Tanner saw has been identified.  A British tourist, who has been ruled out.
2) She saw Gerry McCann and Jeremy Wilkins on the night Madeleine disappeared, talking near the garden gate of 5A,
3) Her accounts were consistent (that she didn't see a face, and thus, couldn't identify a man via a facial photograph), which is why it was surprising to the private investigators that she identified Tim Craig-Harvey's "George" via a facial photo.

Thus, Jane Tanner's entire value to the case now is as a witness -- but not as a witness of a theoretical abductor, as she once believed. 
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: pegasus on April 09, 2016, 12:49:49 AM
(snip) (snip) ...I did not hear Jane Tanner saying it nor have I found confirmation elsewhere that she did ... (snip)
Gadfly I agree with Brietta, all that is in the video is someone claiming that JT said "that is the guy that I saw carrying the child". The video is no proof that JT said it. I suggest that the person spying on her from the next room misheard what she said.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Gadfly1.3 on April 09, 2016, 01:05:37 AM
I suggest that the person spying on her from the next room misheard what she said.

Suggest away.  It was taped.  It was (the interview where she picked George) heard by at least four people (you can ascertain that from the documentary).  So it is up to you to evaluate TCH's credibility.  Either way, whatever was happening with Tanner's memory with regard to faces, her memory of positional placement  of GM/JW hasn't changed.

So again, just to sum-up.
1) The man Jane Tanner saw has been identified.  A British tourist, who has been ruled out.
2) She saw Gerry McCann and Jeremy Wilkins on the night Madeleine disappeared, talking near the garden gate of 5A,

and...

3) Her accounts were consistent (that she didn't see a face, and thus, couldn't identify a man via a facial photograph), which is why it was surprising to the private investigators that she identified Tim Craig-Harvey's "George" via a facial photo.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: faithlilly on April 09, 2016, 01:13:36 AM
Suggest away.  It was taped.  It was (the interview where she picked George) heard by at least four people (you can ascertain that from the documentary).  So it is up to you to evaluate TCH's credibility.  Either way, whatever was happening with Tanner's memory with regard to faces, her memory of positional placement  of GM/JW hasn't changed.

So again, just to sum-up.
1) The man Jane Tanner saw has been identified.  A British tourist, who has been ruled out.
2) She saw Gerry McCann and Jeremy Wilkins on the night Madeleine disappeared, talking near the garden gate of 5A,

and...

3) Her accounts were consistent (that she didn't see a face, and thus, couldn't identify a man via a facial photograph), which is why it was surprising to the private investigators that she identified Tim Craig-Harvey's "George" via a facial photo.

And lest we forget she was reported as being 80% sure that the man she saw on the night of the 3rd was the same man seen by Gsil Cooper.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: pegasus on April 09, 2016, 01:21:17 AM
And lest we forget she was reported as being 80% sure that the man she saw on the night of the 3rd was the same man seen by Gsil Cooper.
reported not by her, but by someone who wrote a powerpoint document.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: faithlilly on April 09, 2016, 01:24:44 AM
reported not by her, but by someone who wrote a powerpoint document.

Are you suggesting that person was being less than truthful ?
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Brietta on April 09, 2016, 01:35:44 AM
Suggest away.  It was taped.  It was (the interview where she picked George) heard by at least four people (you can ascertain that from the documentary).  So it is up to you to evaluate TCH's credibility.  Either way, whatever was happening with Tanner's memory with regard to faces, her memory of positional placement  of GM/JW hasn't changed.

So again, just to sum-up.
1) The man Jane Tanner saw has been identified.  A British tourist, who has been ruled out.
2) She saw Gerry McCann and Jeremy Wilkins on the night Madeleine disappeared, talking near the garden gate of 5A,

and...

3) Her accounts were consistent (that she didn't see a face, and thus, couldn't identify a man via a facial photograph), which is why it was surprising to the private investigators that she identified Tim Craig-Harvey's "George" via a facial photo.

You have claimed that Jane Tanner identified a man from his photograph and was audio taped doing so.

The cite you provided puts words into Jane's mouth but does not substantiate your claim ... therefore it is worthless.

I have looked for provenance and have found none.

The ball is now in your court.
Please substantiate your statement with an acceptable cite and if you cannot please withdraw your claim.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: sadie on April 09, 2016, 01:45:08 AM
Suggest away.  It was taped.  It was (the interview where she picked George) heard by at least four people (you can ascertain that from the documentary).  So it is up to you to evaluate TCH's credibility.  Either way, whatever was happening with Tanner's memory with regard to faces, her memory of positional placement  of GM/JW hasn't changed.

So again, just to sum-up.
1) The man Jane Tanner saw has been identified.  A British tourist, who has been ruled out.2) She saw Gerry McCann and Jeremy Wilkins on the night Madeleine disappeared, talking near the garden gate of 5A 
and...

3) Her accounts were consistent (that she didn't see a face, and thus, couldn't identify a man via a facial photograph), which is why it was surprising to the private investigators that she identified Tim Craig-Harvey's "George" via a facial photo.
Furthermore,

It is thought, but there is no certainty that Jane Tanners man has been ruled out.  There are plenty of question marks about that.

Please try and be accurate gadfly
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: sadie on April 09, 2016, 01:48:51 AM
Suggest away. It was taped.  It was (the interview where she picked George) heard by at least four people (you can ascertain that from the documentary).  So it is up to you to evaluate TCH's credibility.  Either way, whatever was happening with Tanner's memory with regard to faces, her memory of positional placement  of GM/JW hasn't changed.

So again, just to sum-up.
1) The man Jane Tanner saw has been identified.  A British tourist, who has been ruled out.
2) She saw Gerry McCann and Jeremy Wilkins on the night Madeleine disappeared, talking near the garden gate of 5A,

and...

3) Her accounts were consistent (that she didn't see a face, and thus, couldn't identify a man via a facial photograph), which is why it was surprising to the private investigators that she identified Tim Craig-Harvey's "George" via a facial photo.

It was taped.  It was (the interview where she picked George) heard by at least four people (you can ascertain that from the documentary).

Please can you prove that statement.  Thank you Gadfly
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: pegasus on April 09, 2016, 02:07:28 AM
Gadfly do you know if these private investigators also had their expert voice analyst listen in to the over the road account?
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Gadfly1.3 on April 09, 2016, 09:55:14 AM
As I said Sadie, it is up to you as to whether or not you believe Tim Craig Harvey. :)
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Brietta on April 09, 2016, 11:32:23 AM
As I said Sadie, it is up to you as to whether or not you believe Tim Craig Harvey. :)

You've made a claim for Jane Tanner, Gadfly, the link you provided failed to substantiate your claim.  Have you found one yet which is directly attributable to Jane Tanner and which substantiates your claim?
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Gadfly1.3 on April 09, 2016, 12:30:01 PM
As noted:

1) Jane Tanner identified a man who has now been 'almost certainly' identified by Scotland Yard.  He has been ruled out.  On that you can choose to believe Scotland Yard or Sadie. (See previous page; Crimewatch documentary 2013)

2) Jane Tanner -- look at the national C4 documentary Madeleine Was Here/image I provided -- along with Jeremy Wilkins corroborated that Gerry McCann was within two metres -- or for arguments sake, in terms of time, 3 seconds -- away from the gate of 5A. (See Channel 4 documentary available on YouTube, and Jeremy Wilkins' statement and drawn map).

3) Jane Tanner's memory improved to the extent that she went from being unable to identify the man she saw by his face to eventually identifying a man via a facial photograph.  Tim Craig Harvey, a man who was paid by the McCanns to look at the case, confirmed the second of those facts in a national C5 documentary entitled McCanns And The Conman.  I provided a documentary, produced by Channel 5 -- and people can judge for themselves.

For anyone other than Brietta or Sadie--- you can access the following resources on the previous pages of this thread, and you can decide for yourself. :)
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: pegasus on April 09, 2016, 02:38:13 PM
@Gadfly Was the audio recording made covertly, without JT's permission, by people effectively working for GM?
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: pegasus on April 09, 2016, 02:54:16 PM
@Gadfly In the audio recording does JT actually say she recognised the facial features? Is it possible that her identification was not by facial features but by hair style/length ?

In other words, that the hair style/length of the market trader in the photo/video shown to JT by PIs closely matched the hair style/length of the brit tourist she saw carrying a child on May 3rd.

BTW the brit tourist's hair style/length changed between May 2007 and when he was photographed by SY and therefore the obfuscated SY photo does not represent his hair in May 2007.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Gadfly1.3 on April 09, 2016, 03:02:22 PM
@Pegasus.  If Miss Tanner is not happy with the 'almost certain' comments made by SY, or by the gentlemen who noticed his daughter's 'frilly pyjamas', then all she has to do is gave them a quick call any time she chooses and tell them (the details of their contact details can be found here: http://content.met.police.uk/Article/Operation-Grange/1400005508791/35434).  I'm sure she can clear this up, or maybe already has done. :)  Until then, she will remain a witness who saw Gerry near the gate at 5A, and will corroborate Mr Wilkins on Gerry's positioning (to within a couple of metres or so).
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: pegasus on April 09, 2016, 03:14:56 PM
@Pegasus.  If Miss Tanner is not happy with the 'almost certain' comments made by SY, or by the gentlemen who noticed his daughter's 'frilly pyjamas, then all she has to do is gave them a quick call any time she chooses and tell them.  I'm sure she can clear this up.  Until then, she will remain a witness who saw Gerry near the gate at 5A, and will corroborate Mr Wilkins on Gerry's positioning (to within a couple of metres or so).
Gadfly I am not disputing JT's later identification of SY's brit tourist, it is correct IMO. Also I agree with you about the curious issue of the chat position, yes two people state it correctly and one incorrectly.

What I am disputing is your claim (as I understand it) that much earlier, JT told a PI that she recognised the facial features of a market trader as being equal to the facial features of the man she saw carrying a child. I suggest that she recognised the market trader's hair as being equal to the hair of the man she saw carrying a child.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Gadfly1.3 on April 09, 2016, 03:20:45 PM
@Pegasus.  I understand your 'dispute.' 

Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: pegasus on April 09, 2016, 03:45:31 PM
@Pegasus.  I understand your 'dispute.' 
Gadfly I have great faith in the integrity of witness JT. Unless you are able to state that she said she specifically recognised the market trader's facial features, I will assume that she recognised the market trader's hair as being closely similar to hair of the carrier she saw on May 3. I base that conclusion on the hair being by far the most conspicuous natural feature visible on May 3, and on JT stating she did not see facial details on May 3.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Gadfly1.3 on April 09, 2016, 04:03:53 PM
@Pegasus.  That is your prerogative.  To make that assumption is your right but it would mean you are ignoring Tim Craig-Harvey saying the following:

''So we have got photographic evidence.'
'Now that we have a photograph'
'We had a device in the room to pick up what she was saying.'
'She was then presented of a photograph of this guy George in the market [while a facial photograph is shown during the Channel Five documentary McCanns And The Conman), at which point she broke down and said, "That is the guy I saw carrying the child."'
'Jane Tanner having said "This is the guy that I saw", it may just have been that she so wanted to help that she fooled herself."

Again -- if Miss Tanner disagrees with anything in Tim Craig Harvey's account, she can contact Channel Five.  And if she believes that I have misrepresented her identification, she can contact me too.  Finally, Pegasus, in case you are feeling restless about this, you are free to contact Tom Craig-Harvey so you can turn your assumption into something more concrete.

For any one wishing to decide for themselves, the documentary The McCanns And The Conman can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vphKz-Xjbn0
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Brietta on April 09, 2016, 06:35:43 PM
@Pegasus.  That is your prerogative.  To make that assumption is your right but it would mean you are ignoring Tim Craig-Harvey saying the following:

''So we have got photographic evidence.'
'Now that we have a photograph'
'We had a device in the room to pick up what she was saying.'
'She was then presented of a photograph of this guy George in the market [while a facial photograph is shown during the Channel Five documentary McCanns And The Conman), at which point she broke down and said, "That is the guy I saw carrying the child."'
'Jane Tanner having said "This is the guy that I saw", it may just have been that she so wanted to help that she fooled herself."

Again -- if Miss Tanner disagrees with anything in Tim Craig Harvey's account, she can contact Channel Five.  And if she believes that I have misrepresented her identification, she can contact me too.  Finally, Pegasus, in case you are feeling restless about this, you are free to contact Tom Craig-Harvey so you can turn your assumption into something more concrete.

For any one wishing to decide for themselves, the documentary The McCanns And The Conman can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vphKz-Xjbn0

I have asked you twice for a cite for Jane Tanner's alleged statement ... I don't think someone else saying the words you allege she says cuts the mustard ... please provide a cite for your allegation or refrain from repetition.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: pegasus on April 09, 2016, 08:39:33 PM
@Gadfly hopefully we can agree to differ on whether or not JT actually says in the recording that she recognised the facial features of marketman. IMO it was simply the hairstyle/length/colour and the general build.

On your main point, the location of the chat, I agree with you that it was on the west side of the street, fairly close to the lounge window. In the Cutting Edge documentary, I find witness JT completely convincing and honest when she states where the chat was located.

IMO the crucial difference between the two locations is this: at the true location, the conversation was easily audible inside the apartment (the sound of the voices transmitting through the lounge window above). At the other location, a hypothetical conversation would be inaudible inside the apartment.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: Gadfly1.3 on April 12, 2016, 05:22:57 PM
Deny. Deny. Deny. It's a simple but effective strategy Pegasus. The problem is that the denials often require explanations that lead to clear contradictions in an author's (or defendant's) logic and arguments.  The evidence on this thread is so overwhelming and well cited that it is unspinnable.  Brietta's latest point gave me a big smile as I could see it coming. But you'll be met with more of the same: deny, deny, and deny.

Thank God for the fact that Western justice systems aren't as succeptible to such a strategy as internet forums/ public opinion are.  Portuguese juries even have judges on them. :)

Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: jassi on April 12, 2016, 05:30:53 PM
Deny. Deny. Deny. It's a simple but effective strategy Pegasus. The problem is that the denials often require explanations that lead to clear contradictions in an author's (or defendant's) logic and arguments.  The evidence on this thread is so overwhelming and well cited that it is unspinnable.  Brietta's latest point gave me a big smile as I could see it coming. But you'll be met with more of the same: deny, deny, and deny.

Thank God for the fact that Western justice systems aren't as succeptible to such a strategy as internet forums/ public opinion are.  Portuguese juries even have judges on them. :)

Indeed. Everything,no matter how trivial has to be contested  and argued to the Nth degree- it's like a knee-jerk reaction.
Title: Re: Jane Tanner's interview with The Sun on 20 November 2007
Post by: John on April 13, 2016, 02:30:25 PM
Members please note that the Gerry and Jez chat discussion has been moved.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1249.msg320651#msg320651