UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Luke Mitchell and the murder of his teenage girfriend Jodi Jones on 30 June 2003. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on April 19, 2021, 09:37:31 PM
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The following is a Bafta-winning real-life drama about the murder of Sophie Lancaster in 2007. She was attacked, along with her boyfriend, because they were dressed as goths:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0559fd8/murdered-for-being-different
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sophie_Lancaster
I watched the above earlier which imo is excellent. It also portrays how fearful witnesses were about coming forward.
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The following is a Bafta-winning real-life drama about the murder of Sophie Lancaster in 2007. She was attacked, along with her boyfriend, because they were dressed as goths:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0559fd8/murdered-for-being-different
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sophie_Lancaster
I watched the above earlier which imo is excellent. It also portrays how fearful witnesses were about coming forward.
“.....she was killed because some arseholes killed her. Why can’t we ask what it is about them that made them want to murder someone? Not what it is about someone that made them be murdered.”
Robert Maltby - June 2017 via The Guardian
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The following is a Bafta-winning real-life drama about the murder of Sophie Lancaster in 2007. She was attacked, along with her boyfriend, because they were dressed as goths:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0559fd8/murdered-for-being-different
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sophie_Lancaster
I watched the above earlier which imo is excellent. It also portrays how fearful witnesses were about coming forward.
‘The timing of the attack did not help; it was one of a series of unconnected crimes that triggered a period of intense media coverage and national soul-searching. On the same night, 25 miles away in Warrington, teenagers attacked Garry Newlove outside his home. He died two days later. The next week, a 16-year-old boy in Liverpool shot and killed 11-year-old Rhys Jones. The following June, three teenagers stabbed Ben Kinsella to death in north London after a minor disagreement with the boy’s friends.
There seemed to be a pattern; groups of young men, who were known to police but not to their victims, committing horrific attacks in public without provocation.
Coverage of the crimes and the campaigns they inspired focused variously on knives, binge drinking, anti-social-behaviour and troubled families.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/15/robert-maltby-on-the-of-his-girlfriend-sophie-lancaster-the-goth-thing-was-an-oversimplification
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Really? Another thread on the same subject??
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The following documentary features:
- Slyvia Lancaster (Sophie's mother)
- Stacey Elder (Sophie's friend)
- Suzanne Trickett (Sophie's friend)
- Catherine Symth (Local journalist)
- Dean Holden (Det Chief Insp in charge of investigation)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmpn4F1nE74
@ 38 mins in until the end all refer to Sophie and Rob singled out due to the fact they appeared different. Sylvia refers to them targetted as a result of being 'alternative' and makes reference to goths and other subcultures. Stacey Elder refers to them, including herself, targetted as a result of the way they looked, dressed and the music they listened to.
At the beginning of the vid Suzanne Trickett refers to attending a Marilyn Manson concert with Sophie.
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I don't think you answered my question on one of the several other threads where you raise the Goth issue. It's to do with Goth attacks in Jodi's neighbourhood - how many were there or have there been pre and post her death? How many physical maimings and murders of Goths in her town or the environs? Did Jodi report having been bullied or harassed for her interest in Goth Culture? In short do you have any evidence at all to back up your theory apart from the fact that Goth Bashing is a thing? It would be like me saying that Damilola Taylor was a victim of a racial attack by white racists without providing any supporting evidence to back it up.
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I don't think you answered my question on one of the several other threads where you raise the Goth issue. It's to do with Goth attacks in Jodi's neighbourhood - how many were there or have there been pre and post her death? How many physical maimings and murders of Goths in her town or the environs? Did Jodi report having been bullied or harassed for her interest in Goth Culture? In short do you have any evidence at all to back up your theory apart from the fact that Goth Bashing is a thing? It would be like me saying that Damilola Taylor was a victim of a racial attack by white racists without providing any supporting evidence to back it up.
Ive posted links to goth attacks in Scotland but just for you...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-44644067
https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/goths-threatened-acid-attacks-young-19141062
Why do you think J J's hair was pulled out and her clothes removed? Both represent goth culture. No sexual assault.
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Ive posted links to goth attacks in Scotland but just for you...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-44644067
https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/goths-threatened-acid-attacks-young-19141062
Why do you think J J's hair was pulled out and her clothes removed? Both represent goth culture. No sexual assault.
Were those attacks you've posted links to in Jodi's neighbourhood? Again, it would be like me posting links to racist attacks on blacks in London to justify a theory that Damilola Taylor was killed in a racist attack - you need to do a bit better than that.
Did Jodi's clothes and hair represent "Goth Culture" - perhaps you can elucidate on this. IMO, Goth fashion is quite extreme, with white panstick, black eyeliner and lipstick, big scary black hair, multiple piercings and studded leather items, all black clothing, how much of this was Jodi desporting on the evening of her death?
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NO. Don't you read other threads?
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NO. Don't you read other threads?
If this is addressed to me what exactly are you saying “NO” to?
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If this is addressed to me what exactly are you saying “NO” to?
I find using the 'quote' when replying avoids confusion.
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I find using the 'quote' when replying avoids confusion.
A straight "NO" in response to my post makes no sense so I'm not even sure it was in answer to me...
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A straight "NO" in response to my post makes no sense so I'm not even sure it was in answer to me...
Actually I thought it was in response to the thread title. I wondered where the suggestion had been made in other threads😮
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If this is addressed to me what exactly are you saying “NO” to?
Sorry, it was an answer to the thread title.
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Actually I thought it was in response to the thread title. I wondered where the suggestion had been made in other threads😮
Sorry, it was a response to the thread title. By the reference to reading other threads I meant those which contain more likely theories than just being a Goth. J wasn't killed for that. She wasn't a true Goth anyway.
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Sorry, it was a response to the thread title. By the reference to reading other threads I meant those which contain more likely theories than just being a Goth. J wasn't killed for that. She wasn't a true Goth anyway.
No need for apology. We all make posts which need explanation from time to time ... I'm probably higher up the scoreboard for it than most.
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Were those attacks you've posted links to in Jodi's neighbourhood? Again, it would be like me posting links to racist attacks on blacks in London to justify a theory that Damilola Taylor was killed in a racist attack - you need to do a bit better than that.
Did Jodi's clothes and hair represent "Goth Culture" - perhaps you can elucidate on this. IMO, Goth fashion is quite extreme, with white panstick, black eyeliner and lipstick, big scary black hair, multiple piercings and studded leather items, all black clothing, how much of this was Jodi desporting on the evening of her death?
Only a few online images exist. One such image depicts J J with braids and a lip piercing. I have also read she was wearing black baggy clothing. I believe these adornments and attire represent goth culture.
We know individuals are singled out and physically assaulted as a result of identifying with goth culture as so many examples exist.
It could be a case that the perp called out some derogatory term, J J responded in kind and the whole thing escalated. Seems more plausible to me than L M being responsible imo.
https://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/13379720.mcdonalds-customer-sought-over-hate-crime-goth-attack/
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Only a few online images exist. One such image depicts J J with braids and a lip piercing. I have also read she was wearing black baggy clothing. I believe these adornments and attire represent goth culture.
We know individuals are singled out and physically assaulted as a result of identifying with goth culture as so many examples exist.
It could be a case that the perp called out some derogatory term, J J responded in kind and the whole thing escalated. Seems more plausible to me than L M being responsible imo.
https://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/13379720.mcdonalds-customer-sought-over-hate-crime-goth-attack/
You think the nature of the attack, the grotestque mutilations etc were the result of a spat over some perceived insult? I don't. But - if you're prepared to believe a simple tit for tat of insults was the cause of the grotestque, near beheading of the victim why does this make it less likely that LM was involved?
Incidentally, you'll be pleased to know that Nina in coronation Street will (in a soon to be aired episode) be the victim of a Goth hate crime for the way she dresses. That's almost proof you're right, innit?
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You think the nature of the attack, the grotestque mutilations etc were the result of a spat over some perceived insult? I don't. But - if you're prepared to believe a simple tit for tat of insults was the cause of the grotestque, near beheading of the victim why does this make it less likely that LM was involved?
Incidentally, you'll be pleased to know that Nina in coronation Street will (in a soon to be aired episode) be the victim of a Goth hate crime for the way she dresses. That's almost proof you're right, innit?
I didn't say what you've stated in your first sentence. I said it could have played out like that. Numerous cases exist where individuals have been murdered over queue jumping, car parking spaces and garden boundaries so why not some insult?
There's nothing whatsoever in LM's background to suggest he was capable of such a crime. J J described him as a "sweet guy" and there's no evidence he was in any way abusive towards her.
The pathologist was only asked to comment about this crazy idea that LM reenacted the Black Dahlia murder. He was not asked if the soc represented a goth attack. Why was J J's hair pulled out and her clothes removed? Both represent goth culture. Did J J have tattoos representing goth culture? If so were some or all of her injuries around these sites?
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I didn't say what you've stated in your first sentence. I said it could have played out like that. Numerous cases exist where individuals have been murdered over queue jumping, car parking spaces and garden boundaries so why not some insult?
There's nothing whatsoever in LM's background to suggest he was capable of such a crime. J J described him as a "sweet guy" and there's no evidence he was in any way abusive towards her.
The pathologist was only asked to comment about this crazy idea that LM reenacted the Black Dahlia murder. He was not asked if the soc represented a goth attack. Why was J J's hair pulled out and her clothes removed? Both represent goth culture. Did J J have tattoos representing goth culture? If so were some or all of her injuries around these sites?
True, but how many of those murders resulted in grotesque mutilation of the body? I mean, have you read the list of injuries to Jodi’s body?
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True, but how many of those murders resulted in grotesque mutilation of the body? I mean, have you read the list of injuries to Jodi’s body?
Yes I have read the pathologist's description of the injuries. Are the injuries around sites of make-up, piercings and tattoos representing goth cullture? Certainly J J's hair pulled out and clothes removed might support such.
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Yes I have read the pathologist's description of the injuries. Are the injuries around sites of make-up, piercings and tattoos representing goth cullture? Certainly J J's hair pulled out and clothes removed might support such.
You seem to be putting forward two motives - a spat because of an insult thown out by Jodi and a goth hate crime. Jodi was 14 - I don’t believe she had any tattoos (though her boyfriend had an illegal one). mMurdered women quite often have their clothes removed or hair pulled out if there was a struggle, even ones that aren’t Goths. What goth make up was Jodi wearing that night?
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You seem to be putting forward two motives - a spat because of an insult thown out by Jodi and a goth hate crime. Jodi was 14 - I don’t believe she had any tattoos (though her boyfriend had an illegal one). mMurdered women quite often have their clothes removed or hair pulled out if there was a struggle, even ones that aren’t Goths. What goth make up was Jodi wearing that night?
I said it is possible the perp called out some derogatory term aimed at J J due to identifying as a goth with her responding in kind and the whole thing escalated. Either way I think its possible the murder was effectively a hate crime due to identifying as a goth.
We do not have the full facts from the pathologist re tattoos, permanent and semi-perm, piercings, nail varnish, make up, jewellery, clothes and any other attire and adornments.
Clothes are usually removed where the crime involves a sexual element.
The jury heard one explanation for the mutilation and that involved L M reenacting the Black Dahlia murder despite the fact J J's injuries are incompatible with this. The jury did not get to hear the fact J J may have been the victim of a hate crime due to identifying as a goth.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-56886887
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40628457
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https://images.app.goo.gl/Djn5RnxKx5z1g8GN7
https://images.app.goo.gl/FUg2pe8187Zumkb57
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Your theory that she was murdered for being a Goth has no more legitimacy than the theory that she was murdered for being a girlfriend or for being female. I could certainly provide hundreds more examples of the latter two than there are of Goths being murder victims. What you need to provide for your theory is actual evidence - have you got any?
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Your theory that she was murdered for being a Goth has no more legitimacy than the theory that she was murdered for being a girlfriend or for being female. I could certainly provide hundreds more examples of the latter two than there are of Goths being murder victims. What you need to provide for your theory is actual evidence - have you got any?
Can you identify cases where females have been murdered solely for being a girlfriend or female?
The prosecution was able to advance a theory about L M reenacting the black dahlia murder. Had the defence advanced a theory about a potential goth attack we might not be discussing the case right now. The black dahlia theory has no more credence than a goth attack by unknown individual(s).
Here's a case where a man attacked girls and women for wearing lycra
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9530459/Cyclist-sexually-assaulted-10-women-two-girls-two-days-jailed-three-years.html
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Can you identify cases where females have been murdered solely for being a girlfriend or female?
The prosecution was able to advance a theory about L M reenacting the black dahlia murder. Had the defence advanced a theory about a potential goth attack we might not be discussing the case right now. The black dahlia theory has no more credence than a goth attack by unknown individual(s).
Here's a case where a man attacked girls and women for wearing lycra
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9530459/Cyclist-sexually-assaulted-10-women-two-girls-two-days-jailed-three-years.html
you cannot be serious?!
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Can you identify cases where females have been murdered solely for being a girlfriend or female?
See: The Femicide Census, founded by Karen Ingala Smith and Clarissa O’Callaghan
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I don’t think Jodi was killed due to identifying as a goth. However, I do feel that some of the goth/metal music both Jodi and Luke listened to could have been important.
Does anyone know if the Murderdolls and Slipknot lyrics were ever looked at during the investigation?
The Slipknot masks, particularly the masks of Corey Taylor?
https://www.metalsucks.net/2017/05/31/which-slipknot-mask-is-corey-taylors-personal-favorite/ (https://www.metalsucks.net/2017/05/31/which-slipknot-mask-is-corey-taylors-personal-favorite/) - Some Corey Taylor masks. The second from left was his 2003 mask.
Joey Jordison was in both Slipknot as their drummer and Murderdolls as their guitarist in 2003.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joey_Jordison (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joey_Jordison)
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I don’t think Jodi was killed due to identifying as a goth. However, I do feel that some of the goth/metal music both Jodi and Luke listened to could have been important.
Does anyone know if the Murderdolls and Slipknot lyrics were ever looked at during the investigation?
The Slipknot masks, particularly the masks of Corey Taylor?
https://www.metalsucks.net/2017/05/31/which-slipknot-mask-is-corey-taylors-personal-favorite/ (https://www.metalsucks.net/2017/05/31/which-slipknot-mask-is-corey-taylors-personal-favorite/) - Some Corey Taylor masks. The second from left was his 2003 mask.
Joey Jordison was in both Slipknot as their drummer and Murderdolls as their guitarist in 2003.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joey_Jordison (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joey_Jordison)
Dr Richard Hoskins was one of the experts called in by Det Supt Dobbie
Slipknot was one of the groups Luke Mitchell favoured
‘His favourite metal bands – Korn, System of a Down and Slipknot’. ⬇️
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/luke-mitchell-sleazy-letters-brutal-3845609
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Dr Richard Hoskins was one of the experts called in by Det Supt Dobbie
Slipknot was one of the groups Luke Mitchell favoured
‘His favourite metal bands – Korn, System of a Down and Slipknot’. ⬇️
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/luke-mitchell-sleazy-letters-brutal-3845609
Was Jodi wearing a Murderdolls t-shirt on the evening she was murdered?
A murder that happened just weeks before Jodi was killed was linked to Slipknot's music http://www.mtv.com/news/1473697/cops-try-to-link-slipknot-music-to-grisly-murder/ (http://www.mtv.com/news/1473697/cops-try-to-link-slipknot-music-to-grisly-murder/)
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Was Jodi wearing a Murderdolls t-shirt on the evening she was murdered?
A murder that happened just weeks before Jodi was killed was linked to Slipknot's music http://www.mtv.com/news/1473697/cops-try-to-link-slipknot-music-to-grisly-murder/ (http://www.mtv.com/news/1473697/cops-try-to-link-slipknot-music-to-grisly-murder/)
I’m not sure where you are going with this but just to be clear - Jodi wasn’t responsible for getting herself murdered - she’s the victim here
Luke Mitchell may very well have carried around sick images in his mind - as pointed out by the judge during his sentencing remarks but Jodi is blameless
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I’m not sure where you are going with this but just to be clear - Jodi wasn’t responsible for getting herself murdered - she’s the victim here
Of course Jodi is the victim and Luke is responsible for her brutal murder.
IMO, the police should have looked closer at bands both Jodi and Luke were known to listen to - Slipknot and Murderdolls for example, and actually looked at some of the lyrics to the songs - lyrics that I didn't want to post here as they are pretty graphic but, to show what I'm getting at - Lyrics from a Murderdolls song ' Mama's little baby gonna die, die, die. I'll slit her throat and take what's mine'. There is an example of a Slipknot song regarding cutting a throat in the link to the murder that took place a few weeks before Jodi was murdered.
IMO, these bands/lyrics/masks are just as relevant as Marilyn Manson/Black Dahlia.
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Of course Jodi is the victim and Luke is responsible for her brutal murder.
IMO, the police should have looked closer at bands both Jodi and Luke were known to listen to - Slipknot and Murderdolls for example, and actually looked at some of the lyrics to the songs - lyrics that I didn't want to post here as they are pretty graphic but, to show what I'm getting at - Lyrics from a Murderdolls song ' Mama's little baby gonna die, die, die. I'll slit her throat and take what's mine'. There is an example of a Slipknot song regarding cutting a throat in the link to the murder that took place a few weeks before Jodi was murdered.
IMO, these bands/lyrics/masks are just as relevant as Marilyn Manson/Black Dahlia.
Thing is it’s very possible the police did look at some of these lyrics and the prosecution decided to go with Manson instead ?
Has anyone seen the full court transcripts to ascertain whether or not any of these groups were ever mentioned ?
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Of course Jodi is the victim and Luke is responsible for her brutal murder.
IMO, the police should have looked closer at bands both Jodi and Luke were known to listen to - Slipknot and Murderdolls for example, and actually looked at some of the lyrics to the songs - lyrics that I didn't want to post here as they are pretty graphic but, to show what I'm getting at - Lyrics from a Murderdolls song ' Mama's little baby gonna die, die, die. I'll slit her throat and take what's mine'. There is an example of a Slipknot song regarding cutting a throat in the link to the murder that took place a few weeks before Jodi was murdered.
IMO, these bands/lyrics/masks are just as relevant as Marilyn Manson/Black Dahlia.
Have you seen Prof Jane Monckton Smiths 8 stage femicide timeline ?
(Page 171 ⬇️ )
Excerpt from Prof Jane Monckton Smith book ‘In Control: Dangerous Relationships & How They End in Murder’
The calm before the storm
’Threats of suicide and threats to kill are not necessarily idle; both could signal a future homicide in this context and should be taken very seriously every time.
https://www.waterstones.com/book/in-control/jane-monckton-smith/9781526613219
Sandra Lean doesn’t refer to Luke’s threats of suicide but then she doesn’t need to - he told a trainee journalist from Stirling Uni called Rozlyn Little in 2018
Didn’t someone claim Jodi had talked about the music she wanted to be played at her funeral a week or so before her murder ?
Wouldn’t this suggest there were conversations about death/dying ?
What did Luke say during these conversations and why were they having them ?