UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Eleanor on April 05, 2013, 10:16:32 PM
-
I live on The Continent and I know these door locks. They can all be opened from the inside. It would be pretty disasterous if they couldn't, and you needed to get out in a hurry.
The same applies to Yale Locks in Angleterre.
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2318.jpg)
99
-
I live on The Continent and I know these door locks. They can all be opened from the inside. It would be pretty disasterous if they couldn't, and you needed to get out in a hurry.
The same applies to Yale Locks in Angleterre.
Yes, it's a safety issue. But then, I have seen locks in Switzerland, that can be locked only with a key. From inside, as well have to be locked with a key from outside.
I don't know those locks in Portugal.
I bet the Attorney General of Portugal, remember him, the man who stated that there was no evidence of any crime by the McCanns, knows about locks in Portugal though. And it is experts like him who matter not people on forums guessing about things.
-
I live on The Continent and I know these door locks. They can all be opened from the inside. It would be pretty disasterous if they couldn't, and you needed to get out in a hurry.
The same applies to Yale Locks in Angleterre.
Between my parents, brother, aunts,cousins and me there are 25 houses and we have at least 20 different systems of locks. How can you know those locks?
-
I live on The Continent and I know these door locks. They can all be opened from the inside. It would be pretty disasterous if they couldn't, and you needed to get out in a hurry.
The same applies to Yale Locks in Angleterre.
Between my parents, brother, aunts,cousins and me there are 25 houses and we have at least 20 different systems of locks. How can you know those locks?
But the Attorney General of Portugal knows those locks doesn't he?
-
Gilet,
are you implying that the ex-Attorney General (fortunately he was replaced) was a locksmith, or a locks expert?! 8(>((
-
Gilet,
are you implying that the ex-Attorney General (fortunately he was replaced) was a locksmith, or a locks expert?! 8(>((
Not at all. I am implying correctly he knows more about the case, including the locks than we do.
Having looked at all the evidence, locks, gates, eggs and all he stated that there was no evidence of any crime by the McCanns and yet clearly you do not have any faith whatsoever in that man's judgement because you clearly do not believe him do you?
It is you belittling the man with your total lack of faith in his judgement, not me.
I think he did the Attorney General did a good job after the investigation was tidied up by Rebelo who found total chaos from his predecessor Amaral.
-
Those locks are not in use in new buildings. I still have one in mine (about 30 years old), identical to the G5A lock. To lock and unlock, from inside or from outside, you need a key. It's a double lock, so the inside et outside keys are eventually different. If the door is just shut, not locked, you open it easily from inside and rather easily from outside with a bank card (some screw turned it impossible in the G5A door, as revealed by the PJ).
-
Those locks are not in use in new buildings. I still have one in mine (about 30 years old), identical to the G5A lock. To lock and unlock, from inside or from outside, you need a key. It's a double lock, so the inside et outside keys are eventually different. If the door is just shut, not locked, you open it easily from inside and rather easily from outside with a bank card (some screw turned it impossible in the G5A door, as revealed by the PJ).
Please show us the evidence you have of the type of lock which is on the front door of Apartment 5A.
It would be interesting to see this. Until we see it we cannot really understand what type it really is.
-
Those locks are not in use in new buildings. I still have one in mine (about 30 years old), identical to the G5A lock. To lock and unlock, from inside or from outside, you need a key. It's a double lock, so the inside et outside keys are eventually different. If the door is just shut, not locked, you open it easily from inside and rather easily from outside with a bank card (some screw turned it impossible in the G5A door, as revealed by the PJ).
But as you all could see in the documentary issued by the portuguese TV, an expert demonstrated that in the particular case of this door that was not possible - the use of something like a credit card or else - as there was a screw that made it impossible.
-
Those locks are not in use in new buildings. I still have one in mine (about 30 years old), identical to the G5A lock. To lock and unlock, from inside or from outside, you need a key. It's a double lock, so the inside et outside keys are eventually different. If the door is just shut, not locked, you open it easily from inside and rather easily from outside with a bank card (some screw turned it impossible in the G5A door, as revealed by the PJ).
But as you all could see in the documentary issued by the portuguese TV, an expert demonstrated that in the particular case of this door that was not possible - the use of something like a credit card or else - as there was a screw that made it impossible.
Would that have been the documentary from Amaral's camp?
-
Those locks are not in use in new buildings. I still have one in mine (about 30 years old), identical to the G5A lock. To lock and unlock, from inside or from outside, you need a key. It's a double lock, so the inside et outside keys are eventually different. If the door is just shut, not locked, you open it easily from inside and rather easily from outside with a bank card (some screw turned it impossible in the G5A door, as revealed by the PJ).
Please show us the evidence you have of the type of lock which is on the front door of Apartment 5A.
It would be interesting to see this. Until we see it we cannot really understand what type it really is.
Watch the documentary, or are you forbidden by your religious leaders?
Which documentary? There are many.
-
What is it the window\shutter, or was it the door
Look at the possibilities The shutter was open, the window was open (apparently not locked - read Beyond the Smears) The curtains in the forensic photos are behind the bed to the left and behind the chair to the right. The net curtains were quite full and would have added to the difficulty in trying to exit carrying a child \ although passing to another perhaps not, but no evidence of a second person. Forget forensics at this point is nothing is really conclusive. This must have happened whilst Mr McCann stood chatting outside.
The front main door Nothing to suggest it was deadlocked thus securing EXIT Worthy to note that JT deadlocked her front door, so her daughter same age as M and not in cot, could not LEAVE. Assuming therefore that the alleged abductor could not of actually entered via the front door (only exit) had he not got in via the window\shutter. Then the only other conclusion must be he entered via the unlocked patio door ahead of Mr McCann, and was therefore in the apartment with him.
Two things spring immediately to mind, being that the front of the apartment which was the far side of the Tapas Bar was the car park, why didn't he\he\it use a car\vehicle. If you ponder that thought it to can lead to other conclusions..... but you have to curtail your thoughts somewhere.
Next up for grabs, since you can't view the cluster f*** at 9.10 - 10pm without mention of the check that took place at 9.25pm approx by MO. Who noticed nothing untoward:
no flapping curtains
no open window
no open shutter
Although M's bed was not in the line of sight, there was the unoccupied second bed under the window. 50% of the beds\cots in a room the size of a postage stamp were empty.
Much really would point to the abduction taking place AFTER MO's check at about 9.30 or later, thus supporting the Smiths sighting, but leaves the earlier sighting by JT at 9.20 ish impossible. Equally could both sightings have been the abductor with Madeleine but then why would he be running around for some 40 minutes carrying a child.
Much rests now with the METS review, perhaps details were missed in the translations, the spontaneity taken from the police techniques, who knows. Could there really be a witness left with some information just to 'turn the final stone'
Somebody, who knew I wasn't searching for Madeleine but for you..., told me you could be "my" Meadow. Well, there's no doubt about it and I'm glad to read you again.
I don't think there's any witness left and any final stone. That's what the public from the very beginning has been made to think. As a collective belief this case is exemplary but the most interesting phenomenon is the so-called victims feeding Leveson's conclusions and now threatening freedom of speech (after having a Portuguese book banned in Portugal where this never occurred since the end of dictatorship).
-
Those locks are not in use in new buildings. I still have one in mine (about 30 years old), identical to the G5A lock. To lock and unlock, from inside or from outside, you need a key. It's a double lock, so the inside et outside keys are eventually different. If the door is just shut, not locked, you open it easily from inside and rather easily from outside with a bank card (some screw turned it impossible in the G5A door, as revealed by the PJ).
Please show us the evidence you have of the type of lock which is on the front door of Apartment 5A.
It would be interesting to see this. Until we see it we cannot really understand what type it really is.
Watch the documentary, or are you forbidden by your religious leaders?
Which documentary? There are many.
Buy yourself a ticket to Praia da Luz, have a look at the lock, and ask the person at the reception to show you the key with the cross section ! One year back, they hadn't changed the lock.
-
8((()*/ 8((()*/ 8((()*/ EXACTLY!
Those locks are not in use in new buildings. I still have one in mine (about 30 years old), identical to the G5A lock. To lock and unlock, from inside or from outside, you need a key. It's a double lock, so the inside et outside keys are eventually different. If the door is just shut, not locked, you open it easily from inside and rather easily from outside with a bank card (some screw turned it impossible in the G5A door, as revealed by the PJ).
Please show us the evidence you have of the type of lock which is on the front door of Apartment 5A.
It would be interesting to see this. Until we see it we cannot really understand what type it really is.
Watch the documentary, or are you forbidden by your religious leaders?
Which documentary? There are many.
Buy yourself a ticket to Praia da Luz, have a look at the lock, and ask the person at the reception to show you the key with the cross section ! One year back, they hadn't changed the lock.
-
Those locks are not in use in new buildings. I still have one in mine (about 30 years old), identical to the G5A lock. To lock and unlock, from inside or from outside, you need a key. It's a double lock, so the inside et outside keys are eventually different. If the door is just shut, not locked, you open it easily from inside and rather easily from outside with a bank card (some screw turned it impossible in the G5A door, as revealed by the PJ).
Please show us the evidence you have of the type of lock which is on the front door of Apartment 5A.
It would be interesting to see this. Until we see it we cannot really understand what type it really is.
Watch the documentary, or are you forbidden by your religious leaders?
Luz, what is not clear to me - amongst other things - is whether a duplicate key (borrowed or copied) was formally excluded as a possibility.
-
8((()*/ 8((()*/ 8((()*/ EXACTLY!
Those locks are not in use in new buildings. I still have one in mine (about 30 years old), identical to the G5A lock. To lock and unlock, from inside or from outside, you need a key. It's a double lock, so the inside et outside keys are eventually different. If the door is just shut, not locked, you open it easily from inside and rather easily from outside with a bank card (some screw turned it impossible in the G5A door, as revealed by the PJ).
Please show us the evidence you have of the type of lock which is on the front door of Apartment 5A.
It would be interesting to see this. Until we see it we cannot really understand what type it really is.
Watch the documentary, or are you forbidden by your religious leaders?
Which documentary? There are many.
Buy yourself a ticket to Praia da Luz, have a look at the lock, and ask the person at the reception to show you the key with the cross section ! One year back, they hadn't changed the lock.
As you completely avoided the question previously, I will repeat it.
What documentary, there are many?
-
Those locks are not in use in new buildings. I still have one in mine (about 30 years old), identical to the G5A lock. To lock and unlock, from inside or from outside, you need a key. It's a double lock, so the inside et outside keys are eventually different. If the door is just shut, not locked, you open it easily from inside and rather easily from outside with a bank card (some screw turned it impossible in the G5A door, as revealed by the PJ).
Thank you for that explanation.
A few questions:
- How old was that building?
- What if a bank card (or similar object) had been cut in half to fit between the screw and the rest of the mechanism?
- Has a duplicate key (perhaps borrowed and copied) been formally excluded as a possibility?
-
Those locks are not in use in new buildings. I still have one in mine (about 30 years old), identical to the G5A lock. To lock and unlock, from inside or from outside, you need a key. It's a double lock, so the inside et outside keys are eventually different. If the door is just shut, not locked, you open it easily from inside and rather easily from outside with a bank card (some screw turned it impossible in the G5A door, as revealed by the PJ).
Thank you for that explanation.
A few questions:
- How old was that building?
- What if a bank card (or similar object) had been cut in half to fit between the screw and the rest of the mechanism?
- Has a duplicate key (perhaps borrowed and copied) been formally excluded as a possibility?
Its an interesting piece of information but how do we know AnneGuedes actually knows what kind of lock was on the door of Apt 5a? Is this from the documentary Luz fails to identify?
-
May I repeat my questions from an earlier post on this thread?
- How old was that building?
- What if a bank card (or similar object) had been cut in half to fit between the screw and the rest of the mechanism?
- Has a duplicate key (perhaps borrowed* and copied) been formally excluded as a possibility?
* Perhaps stolen from an employee?
An additional question: how difficult would it be to get such a key duplicated?
-
May I repeat my questions from an earlier post on this thread?
- How old was that building?
- What if a bank card (or similar object) had been cut in half to fit between the screw and the rest of the mechanism?
- Has a duplicate key (perhaps borrowed* and copied) been formally excluded as a possibility?
* Perhaps stolen from an employee?
An additional question: how difficult would it be to get such a key duplicated?
HOw many master keys were there?
-
May I repeat my questions from an earlier post on this thread?
- How old was that building?
- What if a bank card (or similar object) had been cut in half to fit between the screw and the rest of the mechanism?
- Has a duplicate key (perhaps borrowed* and copied) been formally excluded as a possibility?
* Perhaps stolen from an employee?
An additional question: how difficult would it be to get such a key duplicated?
HOw many master keys were there?
What do you mean by "master" keys?
-
May I repeat my questions from an earlier post on this thread?
- How old was that building?
- What if a bank card (or similar object) had been cut in half to fit between the screw and the rest of the mechanism?
- Has a duplicate key (perhaps borrowed* and copied) been formally excluded as a possibility?
* Perhaps stolen from an employee?
An additional question: how difficult would it be to get such a key duplicated?
HOw many master keys were there?
What do you mean by "master" keys?
Locks for hotels, hospitals etc normally come in suites with individual keys and a series of Master keys of different spread. A master key will fit a whole suite of locks.
-
@ Debunker
You said:
Locks for hotels, hospitals etc normally come in suites with individual keys and a series of Master keys of different spread. A master key will fit a whole suite of locks.
I'd agree, except that this was a privately-owned holiday apartment, with some kind of service arrangement. I haven't found anything that would indicate that there was a "master" key to all such apartments.
-
@ Debunker
You said:
Locks for hotels, hospitals etc normally come in suites with individual keys and a series of Master keys of different spread. A master key will fit a whole suite of locks.
I'd agree, except that this was a privately-owned holiday apartment, with some kind of service arrangement. I haven't found anything that would indicate that there was a "master" key to all such apartments.
Do we know whether it waz a suite of locks?
-
Have you found anything to suggest that there was a suite of master keys for privately-owned holiday rental apartments?
-
Have you found anything to suggest that there was a suite of master keys for privately-owned holiday rental apartments?
I was pointing out our uncertainty. There may or may not be a master, we do not know.
-
This key issue doesn't seem to be a popular topic...
-
You might find this useful when discussing the front door locks at apartment 5a.
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2318.jpg)
-
@Carana
There appears to have been at least two sets of keys, one held in Ocean Ckub reception, and one that was available for the cleaners. In the files there is mention of the club maintenance having keys, but I am unsure if this was a third set or whether the cleaners borrowed the keys from them.
Then we have the slightly bizarre theory that Gerry Mccann offered on CNN
MORGAN: Do you know that yet? Do you know -- is there any evidence how this person came in the room?
G. MCCANN: I mean no doubt, there are a number of options. And --
MORGAN: No, actual evidence. There's nothing they could find to say this is unequivocally how this person came in?
G. MCCANN: No. I mean, it's possible they came through the window. They could have come through the patio doors, although that was in sight of where we were dining. So I think that's probably less likely. For all we know, they could have had a key, you know, lots of people stayed in that apartment over years to the front door --
-
@Carana
There appears to have been at least two sets of keys, one held in Ocean Ckub reception, and one that was available for the cleaners. In the files there is mention of the club maintenance having keys, but I am unsure if this was a third set or whether the cleaners borrowed the keys from them.
Then we have the slightly bizarre theory that Gerry Mccann offered on CNN
MORGAN: Do you know that yet? Do you know -- is there any evidence how this person came in the room?
G. MCCANN: I mean no doubt, there are a number of options. And --
MORGAN: No, actual evidence. There's nothing they could find to say this is unequivocally how this person came in?
G. MCCANN: No. I mean, it's possible they came through the window. They could have come through the patio doors, although that was in sight of where we were dining. So I think that's probably less likely. For all we know, they could have had a key, you know, lots of people stayed in that apartment over years to the front door --
That's interesting Redblossom ... do you know when that interview was given by Gerry McCann ?
-
Icabodcrane, it was when the May 2011 media ppearances happened around Kate Mccann's book launch.
Here is the whole transcript.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1105/11/pmt.01.html
-
@Carana
There appears to have been at least two sets of keys, one held in Ocean Ckub reception, and one that was available for the cleaners. In the files there is mention of the club maintenance having keys, but I am unsure if this was a third set or whether the cleaners borrowed the keys from them.
Then we have the slightly bizarre theory that Gerry Mccann offered on CNN
MORGAN: Do you know that yet? Do you know -- is there any evidence how this person came in the room?
G. MCCANN: I mean no doubt, there are a number of options. And --
MORGAN: No, actual evidence. There's nothing they could find to say this is unequivocally how this person came in?
G. MCCANN: No. I mean, it's possible they came through the window. They could have come through the patio doors, although that was in sight of where we were dining. So I think that's probably less likely. For all we know, they could have had a key, you know, lots of people stayed in that apartment over years to the front door --
I'm not sure what you find odd.
It's a holiday let. A previous occupant could have left it "under the mat" (some obvious place) for someone else with a different activity schedule. Hardly rare. And someone could have spotted this activity, had the key duplicated, and replaced it.
-
It's a holiday let. A previous occupant could have left it "under the mat" (some obvious place) for someone else with a different activity schedule. Hardly rare. And someone could have spotted this activity, had the key duplicated, and replaced it.
*******
Sure. And waited years to use it to enter the place and abduct a child. OK. Plausible.
>@@(*&)
-
It's a holiday let. A previous occupant could have left it "under the mat" (some obvious place) for someone else with a different activity schedule. Hardly rare. And someone could have spotted this activity, had the key duplicated, and replaced it.
*******
Sure. And waited years to use it to enter the place and abduct a child. OK. Plausible.
>@@(*&)
Why "years"? It could have been recent ones.
-
You might find this useful when discussing the front door locks at apartment 5a.
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2318.jpg)
Interesting, John.
Where's this screw that would have prevented a pliable object from being used?
-
Icabodcrane, it was when the May 2011 media ppearances happened around Kate Mccann's book launch.
Here is the whole transcript.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1105/11/pmt.01.html
Thanks for going to trouble of bringing the link, very kind of you
How odd that Gerry would be suggesting that the obvious point of entry ( the unlocked patio doors ) was the least likely
Instead, he mentions the possibility that the abductor may have climbed in through the window ( although he must have known, at that point, that forensic investigation had ruled out the window as a means of either entry or exit )
-
Icabodcrane, it was when the May 2011 media ppearances happened around Kate Mccann's book launch.
Here is the whole transcript.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1105/11/pmt.01.html
Thanks for going to trouble of bringing the link, very kind of you
How odd that Gerry would be suggesting that the obvious point of entry ( the unlocked patio doors ) was the least likely
Instead, he mentions the possibility that the abductor may have climbed in through the window ( although he must have known, at that point, that forensic investigation had ruled out the window as a means of either entry or exit )
He said it was unlikely that the patio doors were used as they had a visual on them and would have seen something. Now, even the most open minded person can't possibly think that the Mccanns and/or their friends eyes were glued on their patio doors for the entire duration of their meal. I mean why would they? if they thought it was perfectly safe.
-
Does anyone have a screenshot of the demonstration by the PT forensic police person in Amaral's documentary as to how a creditcard couldn't have opened that door?
-
It's a holiday let. A previous occupant could have left it "under the mat" (some obvious place) for someone else with a different activity schedule. Hardly rare. And someone could have spotted this activity, had the key duplicated, and replaced it.
*******
Sure. And waited years to use it to enter the place and abduct a child. OK. Plausible.
>@@(*&)
Why "years"? It could have been recent ones.
It was Gerry who said 'years' Carana. That was the point.
-
The key?
Was it a yale type key?, I seem to remember it wasn't 8-)(--)
-
No it was one of those odd "crucifix" keys (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4WzaXOhhQQk/T27yQhGHRKI/AAAAAAAACm4/IXwS8Atj1hg/s1600/1105_maddie2_05.jpg)
-
The Portuguese police have always believed any intruder would have used the FRONT DOOR to enter, knowing the McCanns would never use it that night. He could also have escaped through the shuttered front window to the children's bedroom. For this he would have needed a KEY to the front door. The one the McCanns had for the Ocean Club apartment is known in the locksmiths' trade as a "crucifix key" - and is very unusual because it has four sides. Experienced British locksmith John Reeder told us the key used to take us into the flat yesterday is almost certainly a copy. He said: "Most locksmiths would not be able to copy it without great difficulty. The one in the picture is almost certainly not the original."
Supporting the theory that the kidnap could be an inside job, he added: "I would say it is most likely there is at least one other key in circulation as most locks come with at least two spares when they are cut. But there are not many keys around like this one
(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/notwkey.jpg)
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html (http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html)
-
The Portuguese police have always believed any intruder would have used the FRONT DOOR to enter, knowing the McCanns would never use it that night. He could also have escaped through the shuttered front window to the children's bedroom. For this he would have needed a KEY to the front door. The one the McCanns had for the Ocean Club apartment is known in the locksmiths' trade as a "crucifix key" - and is very unusual because it has four sides. Experienced British locksmith John Reeder told us the key used to take us into the flat yesterday is almost certainly a copy. He said: "Most locksmiths would not be able to copy it without great difficulty. The one in the picture is almost certainly not the original."
Supporting the theory that the kidnap could be an inside job, he added: "I would say it is most likely there is at least one other key in circulation as most locks come with at least two spares when they are cut. But there are not many keys around like this one
(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/notwkey.jpg)
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html (http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html)
That key might be considered unusual for a British locksmith, but I have been repeatedly told that it's bog standard in Portugal. If that is indeed the case, anyone could presumably get one cut by a local locksmith / Mr Mint -type place very quickly.
Even if one hadn't been duplicated for nefarious reasons, there were several of them in circulation at the time.
-
That key might be considered unusual for a British locksmith, but I have been repeatedly told that it's bog standard in Portugal. If that is indeed the case, anyone could presumably get one cut by a local locksmith / Mr Mint -type place very quickly.
Even if one hadn't been duplicated for nefarious reasons, there were several of them in circulation at the time.
There's a picture somewhere of someone in a similar apartment, showing how the door lock works. It was just a plain Yale key, as we know them. I can't find it, yet!
-
Is it even certain that that was the type of key for 5A?
That photo of one came from NOTW.
I don't see a key in the files, just photos of the locking system.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2318.jpg)
ETA: Yes, it might be. See p. 13 - 1956 looks similar.
http://www.rodes.pt/images/stories/catalogs/catalogo_Rodes.pdf
-
Is it even certain that that was the type of key for 5A?
That photo of one came from NOTW.
I don't see a key in the files, just photos of the locking system.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2318.jpg)
ETA: Yes, it might be. See p. 13 - 1956 looks similar.
http://www.rodes.pt/images/stories/catalogs/catalogo_Rodes.pdf (http://www.rodes.pt/images/stories/catalogs/catalogo_Rodes.pdf)
Zoom in on this, looks like the same key on top of the passports.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_22.jpg)
-
I can't zoom in enough, but I had a look at the lock.
See p. 13 - 1956 looks similar.
http://www.rodes.pt/images/stories/catalogs/catalogo_Rodes.pdf
The keys are called "chaves 4 entradas".
Quite a few Mr Minit - type places seem to cut that type, although I haven't looked specifically for that make.
-
I remember a person who visited OC some time before Madeleine went missing said on a forum that these keys weren't easy to operate.
Visitors had to be shown how to use them i.e one turn right and two turns left or two turns right and one turn left.. something like that..
-
I remember a person who visited OC some time before Madeleine went missing said on a forum that these keys weren't easy to operate.
Visitors had to be shown how to use them i.e one turn right and two turns left or two turns right and one turn left.. something like that..
That would appear to rule out entirely the notion that a diminutive three year old opened the front door and walked out.
-
That would appear to rule out entirely the notion that a diminutive three year old opened the front door and walked out.
The door could be opened easily from inside if it wasn't locked with a key but just pulled locked. Or it was just pulled but not closed properly. But I don't think she would go out without wearing her shoes. But that is a possibility I would think: that Gerry during the 9pm visit hasn't locked or pulled the door properly.
Another strange thing about this lock is a tourist saying they locked the door from inside and were inside when the cleaner came in unlocking the door even with the key in. I remember that.
-
Does anyone know if the valuables on the desk, like passports and stuff were checked for fingerprints by PJ?
And why there are only 4 passports on the desk?
-
The door could be opened easily from inside if it wasn't locked with a key but just pulled locked. Or it was just pulled but not closed properly. But I don't think she would go out without wearing her shoes. But that is a possibility I would think: that Gerry during the 9pm visit hasn't locked or pulled the door properly.
Another strange thing about this lock is a tourist saying they locked the door from inside and were inside when the cleaner came in unlocking the door even with the key in. I remember that.
Over the years none of my doors have ever been able to be unlocked from the outside when the key has been left in the lock. I remember the statement and that the tourists were shocked, I would have been too.
(LOL ... as an aside, I think they must have been late risers, it has been my experience that housekeeping doesn't arrive till well after breakfast.)
-
I can't zoom in enough, but I had a look at the lock.
See p. 13 - 1956 looks similar.
http://www.rodes.pt/images/stories/catalogs/catalogo_Rodes.pdf
The keys are called "chaves 4 entradas".
Quite a few Mr Minit - type places seem to cut that type, although I haven't looked specifically for that make.
Good find.
But I think the keys in "Foto 18" above are the UK house keys?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_22.jpg
-
Does anyone know if the valuables on the desk, like passports and stuff were checked for fingerprints by PJ?
And why there are only 4 passports on the desk?
This photo was taken early hours of 4th, by then 1 passport would have been removed to show police?
-
This photo was taken early hours of 4th, by then 1 passport would have been removed to show police?
There are 5 passports on the desk, one is open with the other 4 on top. IF I am correct it is Madeliene's passport photo you can just see on the open one.
-
It would seem that although the locks appeared similar, the keys weren't of the same type throughout the Ocean Club complex.
Here for example is a photo of the key to the front door of apartment 6a, courtesy Mike Teskowski. This particular lock utilises a key almost identical to Chubb or Yale locks in the UK.
Bottom left photo shows clearly how the door is barred manually without even having to use the key in the secondary lock. Any almost 4-year-old child would be quite capable of pulling that bar back.
I also find it quite astonishing that the CSI photos do not show this bar leaving anyone studying them with the impression that a key is needed to operate the lock when this is not the case.
(http://i.imgur.com/aYbZrTN.jpg?1) (http://i.imgur.com/n4kJmPN.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/HI8ViyJ.jpg?1) (http://i.imgur.com/ffCKnix.jpg?1)
Door lock identical to that used in apt 5a. Note however that the actual key is of a different design.
-
Depicted below is the exact type and style of lock used on the front door of apt 5a. Photo on right shows the style of key used.
(http://www.chavesareeiro.pt/portals/13/imagens/produtos/fechaduras/fechadura_de_4_entradas_02.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/37dV4ds.jpg?1)
-
Does the key activate the bar as well or is that a manual lock?
Anyone locking/unlocking the door from outside would need to use a key
-
Depicted below is the exact type and style of lock used on the front door of apt 5a. Photo on right shows the style of key used.
(http://www.chavesareeiro.pt/portals/13/imagens/produtos/fechaduras/fechadura_de_4_entradas_02.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/37dV4ds.jpg?1)
I found it odd that the indoor lever isn't shown on the photos as well.
Re the lock you've just posted, it doesn't look identical to me as in the PJ photo the cannon is aligned with the deadlock, whereas the one you posted is further down.
-
Its not identical since the apartment lock was an older model. The latest version has subtle improvements in design.
-
Its not identical since the apartment lock was an older model. The latest version has subtle improvements in design.
The lock you are showing is a Chaves brand lock, the one you say is a "Door lock identical to that used in apt 5a. Note however that the actual key is of a different design" is a Cifial brand.
Both are wrong the lock on 5a is a Rodes brand, which Carana posted and looks identical by lock and key, which still has the same design with hole in the corner of key, not centre.
Page 13 here. http://www.rodes.pt/images/stories/catalogs/catalogo_Rodes.pdf
-
The current design of the Rodes brand lock appears to have altered slightly (4 entrance key)
(http://i.imgur.com/WkSmsqn.jpg?1)
The point is that Madeleine would have been quite capable of opening the front door had it not been security locked using the key, the manufacturer of the actual lock is irrelevant. For the benefit of this exercise the locks appear virtually identical.
We know for a fact that Madeleine was in the habit of going out that door every morning so in her mind it represented a way out for her to find her parents. Unfortunately, what she probably wouldn't have realised was that her parents were on the other side of the building and not at the front at all. Off course, until she is found or someone owns up to an involvement in her disappearance, it will never be determined what befell her that night be it by accident or by design.
-
If it wasn't dead-locked, would it be that difficult to use something to slide back that latch?
I don't see what screw the guy is talking about.
-
The current design of the Rodes brand lock appears to have altered slightly (4 entrance key)
(http://i.imgur.com/WkSmsqn.jpg?1)
The point is that Madeleine would have been quite capable of opening the front door had it not been security locked using the key, the manufacturer of the actual lock is irrelevant. For the benefit of this exercise the locks appear virtually identical.
We know for a fact that Madeleine was in the habit of going out that door every morning so in her mind it represented a way out for her to find her parents. Unfortunately, what she probably wouldn't have realised was that her parents were on the other side of the building and not at the front at all. Off course, until she is found or someone owns up to an involvement in her disappearance, it will never be determined what befell her that night be it by accident or by design.
Why should it not have been securely locked, as the patio door was already left unlocked for access. Why leave the whole place wide open, front and back ?
-
I really don't understand the PJ's demonstration.
If it had been dead-locked, then I can see that a credit card may not have done the job. However, if it wasn't, then with a malleable implement the height of the latch, it should be fairly easy to push the latch open, I would have thought - particularly as the triangular side faces the outside.
So how would that demo with a credit card prove that she couldn't have been abducted?
-
I really don't understand the PJ's demonstration.
If it had been dead-locked, then I can see that a credit card may not have done the job. However, if it wasn't, then with a malleable implement the height of the latch, it should be fairly easy to push the latch open, I would have thought - particularly as the triangular side faces the outside.
So how would that demo with a credit card prove that she couldn't have been abducted?
It doesn't seem outside the realms of possibility that the front door was shut and the latch pushed across but not deadlocked with the key.
-
It doesn't seem outside the realms of possibility that the front door was shut and the latch pushed across but not deadlocked with the key.
We have a similar lock with the lever. The deadlock was only used when we were further afield than just down the road, as it can be difficult at times, to unlock again.
-
We have a similar lock with the lever. The deadlock was only used when we were further afield than just down the road, as it can be difficult at times, to unlock again.
Less of an issue when you've left the 'back' door open for easy access.
-
Less of an issue when you've left the 'back' door open for easy access.
They were, after all is said and done, "only in the back garden" or some such similar sort of wording.
-
It doesn't seem outside the realms of possibility that the front door was shut and the latch pushed across but not deadlocked with the key.
If simply shutting it made a key necessary to open it from the outside (there was no handle), then pushing a latch from the inside wouldn't have been necessary, would it?
-
If it wasn't dead-locked, would it be that difficult to use something to slide back that latch?
I don't see what screw the guy is talking about.
Thank you for posting those PJ photos Carana. The screw (screwhead) he is talking about is the lower one of the two depicted below. The head of the screw would not have impeded totally the use of a credit card type device to afford entry imo. Slipping it in just above the screw would have easily opened the latch.
(http://i.imgur.com/HUCBsmI.jpg?1)
Closeup of lock fitted to front door of apartment 5a.
-
Are there any references in statements to the deadlock being applied on the front door or was it as I suspect not seen as necessary as long as it was 'on the snib'?
-
Thank you for posting those PJ photos Carana. The screw (screwhead) he is talking about is the lower one of the two depicted below. The head of the screw would not have impeded totally the use of a credit card type device to afford entry imo. Slipping it in just above the screw would have easily opened the latch.
(http://i.imgur.com/HUCBsmI.jpg?1)
Closeup of lock fitted to front door of apartment 5a.
If the screw was flush with the edge of the door, I don't see how that would have blocked an implement.
The other thing is why is he shoving a credit card into an area largely above the lower latch thing, encompassing where the dead-lock would have blocked the card, if it had been deployed?
Is that meant to be a serious forensic demonstration of the impossibility of someone entering the apartment via that door?
ETA: John, those aren't PJ photos. They come from Amaral's "documentary".
-
If the screw was flush with the edge of the door, I don't see how that would have blocked an implement.
The other thing is why is he shoving a credit card into an area largely above the lower latch thing, encompassing where the dead-lock would have blocked the card, if it had been deployed?
Is that meant to be a serious forensic demonstration of the impossibility of someone entering the apartment via that door?
ETA: John, those aren't PJ photos. They come from Amaral's "documentary".
In photo 1 in the sequence above it appears that the the gap between the free edge of the door and door frame is covered by a moulding of some sort. If so forget trying to "pick the lock" with a flexible piece of plastic. The normal technique is to slide the piece of plastic between the door frame and door above (or below) the lock tenon then shuggle it to the the tenon then shuggle it some more in the hope the card will get around the end of the tenon; this is made easier if there is an engaged handle one can shuggle up and down and/or the door is a "rattling good fit". With a moulding covering the gap it will be next to impossible as one will be trying to insinuate the plastic around a right angle bend. This likely will cause the plastic to break or take up a permanent set, also the tenon appears to be cunningly designed to eliminate the possibility of using a piece of plastic. Remember the professional only likes easy targets.
Anyone on here an experienced in B & E ?
-
Are there any references in statements to the deadlock being applied on the front door or was it as I suspect not seen as necessary as long as it was 'on the snib'?
Since Gerry and Kate left by the back door, The front door wouldn't have been locked by a key (Deadlocked)
______________________________________________________________________
Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE through the back door which he consequently closed but did not lock, given that that is only possible from the inside. Concerning the front door, although he is certain that it was closed, it is unlikely that it was locked, because they left through the back door.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post524.html#p524
It seems that one Security minded, witness did double lock(deadlock) their own door, but left the key under the door mat, because they were only issued with one key.
-
Since Gerry and Kate left by the back door, The front door wouldn't have been locked by a key (Deadlocked)
______________________________________________________________________
Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE through the back door which he consequently closed but did not lock, given that that is only possible from the inside. Concerning the front door, although he is certain that it was closed, it is unlikely that it was locked, because they left through the back door.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post524.html#p524
It seems that one Security minded, witness did double lock(deadlock) their own door, but left the key under the door mat, because they were only issued with one key.
It could still only be opened from the outside with a key.
They certainly appear to have had a cavalier attitude towards security.
-
It could still only be opened from the outside with a key.
They certainly appear to have had a cavalier attitude towards security.
The point I was trying to make about the door mat was that a family would need more than one key, surely and the fact that they obviously felt safe in their holiday resort.
However I wonder how many family’s have done the same and how many local burglars knew about it.
-
I can't speak for other people's experiences, but when in holiday accommodation, I have never been issued with more than one key.
-
I can't speak for other people's experiences, but when in holiday accommodation, I have never been issued with more than one key.
Maybe that is where a problem lies, when there is a few adults in the holiday home.
Some like to pursue different activities, to those of their holiday companions.
I guess they could leave their key at reception if needed, but that distracts from the freedom of a holiday.
It was Just my thoughts on how I would have coped when I took my adult children away with us.
We always managed to get an extra key.
-
It could still only be opened from the outside with a key.
They certainly appear to have had a cavalier attitude towards security.
What would be the point in a deadlock that could be opened from the outside with a key? With the patio doors being easily open from the inside it seems a bit redundant.
-
What would be the point in a deadlock that could be opened from the outside with a key? With the patio doors being easily open from the inside it seems a bit redundant.
Well yes, but one might expect people to reduce the number of entrance possibilities, even if not prepared to eliminate them altogether.
-
I can't speak for other people's experiences, but when in holiday accommodation, I have never been issued with more than one key.
That was a point I raised on a different thread a while ago.
If you share accommodation and are autonomous, e.g., have teenage children, an in-law, or another couple, sharing a two-bedroom flat... how do you share access?
You can always arrange to meet up at a specific time several times a day - a bit of a pain.
Or leave a key at reception - not too much of a hassle if you are in a hotel with an efficient ground-floor reception in a central lobby.
Another solution is for the last person to leave the flat to walk through the village to reception and then the next person who needs it goes to recuperate it from there. That's okay, but on occasions someone treks over only to find that someone else had taken it 10 minutes before.
Or, yet, again, you hide a key in one of those "cunning" hiding places that every burglar's five-year-old could work out.
The point being that a key could have been duplicated by tourists "hiding" a key for an hour or so without any OC "key guardians" being involved at all.
I really don't see why the PJ exlcuded that idea either.
And then there is the bizarre story of a previous occupant family finding themselves with a cleaning lady entering the flat with a key even though they'd left their key in the lock on the inside. At one point, I thought that perhaps there were two locks with keys and the couple had left their key in the wrong one, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
-
That was a point I raised on a different thread a while ago.
If you share accommodation and are autonomous, e.g., have teenage children, an in-law, or another couple, sharing a two-bedroom flat... how do you share access?
You either always arrange to meet up at a specific time several times a day - not too much of a hassle if you are in a hotel with an efficient ground-floor reception.
However, it's a pain if the reception isn't in a central lobby.
A solution is for the last person to leave the flat to walk through the village to reception and then the next person who needs it goes to recuperate it from there. That's okay, but on occasions someone treks over only to find that someone else had taken it 10 minutes before.
Or, yet, again, you hide a key in one of those "cunning" hiding places that every burglar's five-year-old could work out.
The point being that a key could have been duplicated by tourists "hiding" a key for an hour or so without any OC "key guardians" being involved at all.
I really don't see why the PJ exlcuded that idea either.
And then there is the bizarre story of a previous occupant family finding themselves with a cleaning lady entering the flat with a key even though they'd left their key in the lock on the inside. At one point, I thought that perhaps there were two locks with keys and the couple had left their key in the wrong one, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Thank you Carana,
My thoughts exactly.
I would have had another key cut, if I couldn't get another, so it makes me wonder why there was so much interest in the lock, when there was so many other possibilities for an extra key.....available for burglars and other criminals.
How long do you need to be in possession of a key, to have duplicate made and how did that cleaner get into 5A?
-
Thank you Carana,
My thoughts exactly.
I would have had another key cut, if I couldn't get another, so it makes me wonder why there was so much interest in the lock, when there was so many other possibilities for an extra key.....available for burglars and other criminals.
How long do you need to be in possession of a key, to have duplicate made and how did that cleaner get into 5A?
(I slightly modified my post just before you to make it clearer and as I thought of extra possibilities for holiday-makers. It's more or less the same in substance.)
The first step is to simply ask for an extra key.
I'm not sure whether one-week holiday-makers without transport would go to the hassle of figuring out how to get an extra (unfamiliar) key cut in a country in which they don't understand the language, nor whether they would feel entitled to do so.
If they were there for two weeks or more, had a hire care and sharing one key was proving to be a real hassle, then perhaps.
-
DP Rog:
485 "How did it lock, and''
Reply "Yes.'
1485 "Was it secure''
Reply "Err you needed, yeah once the door was shut, you know you needed the keys to, you know to gain entry err into the apartment. Err I can't remember whether we ever had, you know whether you can deadlock it so that you could get in and out with the door open, but essentially you needed the key you know, to use, if I remember to gain access into the, err into the apartment, and you know generally it was difficult because there was, you know we'd ask about more than one key, there was the only one key to the apartment so during the day time you know we left the key under the, the err there was a mat err outside, err you know that you wipe your feet on, and err you know that's, that's basically how we gained entry into it during the day time.'
-
Thank you Carana,
My thoughts exactly.
I would have had another key cut, if I couldn't get another, so it makes me wonder why there was so much interest in the lock, when there was so many other possibilities for an extra key.....available for burglars and other criminals.
How long do you need to be in possession of a key, to have duplicate made and how did that cleaner get into 5A?
There was a key-cutter in Lagos according to an ex-pat forum. There are several Intermarché places not too far away which may or may not have had key-cutting / shoe-repair kiosks.
-
(I slightly modified my post just before you to make it clearer and as I thought of extra possibilities for holiday-makers. It's more or less the same in substance.)
The first step is to simply ask for an extra key.
I'm not sure whether one-week holiday-makers without transport would go to the hassle of figuring out how to get an extra (unfamiliar) key cut in a country in which they don't understand the language, nor whether they would feel entitled to do so.
If they were there for two weeks or more, had a hire care and sharing one key was proving to be a real hassle, then perhaps.
Apparently, holiday makers at OC, were only allowed one key and that is why one witness put it under the doormat.
I have never had a holiday key duplicated, but it would be an impossible situation to deal with, if we only had one key between four adults.
Are the OC type keys the only of their type in Portugal? I should also think they would need new ones cut, when there was a lost key or did they replace the locks, I wonder.
Sorry Carana, You beat me too it.
-
We've discussed the possibility of duplicate keys on another thread somewhere.
What I'm curious about at the moment is how exactly the credit-card demonstration in Amaral's "documentary" is supposed to prove that the door couldn't have been opened from the outside and that therefore an abduction was impossible. &%+((£
-
Apparently, holiday makers at OC, were only allowed one key and that is why one witness put it under the doormat.
I have never had a holiday key duplicated, but it would be an impossible situation to deal with, if we only had one key between four adults.
Are the OC type keys the only of their type in Portugal? I should also think they would need new ones cut, when there was a lost key or did they replace the locks, I wonder.
No, there are several types of locks (many resembling normal Yale-type ones), but this cross / crucifix type doesn't seem unusual at all.
I did find key-cutters who duplicate "4 entrance" keys, but I haven't delved into whether they did this specific brand. I also discovered that you can order key-cutting machines and blank keys (including "crucifix /cross" ones) from the US for around $200.
-
We've discussed the possibility of duplicate keys on another thread somewhere.
What I'm curious about at the moment is how exactly the credit-card demonstration in Amaral's "documentary" is supposed to prove that the door couldn't have been opened from the outside and that therefore an abduction was impossible. &%+((£
It seems to be this thread a long time back
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1207.msg32882;topicseen#msg32882
-
Proof if it were needed that these discussions go round and round in circles. Groundhog Day!! @)(++(*
-
Proof if it were needed that these discussions go round and round in circles. Groundhog Day!! @)(++(*
I missed it first time round I'm afraid.
-
It seems to be this thread a long time back
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1207.msg32882;topicseen#msg32882
LOL
However, I'm still intrigued by what the credit-card demo was supposed to prove.
-
LOL
However, I'm still intrigued by what the credit-card demo was supposed to prove.
I would also like an answer, but it is unlikely, to come.
-
In photo 1 in the sequence above it appears that the the gap between the free edge of the door and door frame is covered by a moulding of some sort. If so forget trying to "pick the lock" with a flexible piece of plastic. The normal technique is to slide the piece of plastic between the door frame and door above (or below) the lock tenon then shuggle it to the the tenon then shuggle it some more in the hope the card will get around the end of the tenon; this is made easier if there is an engaged handle one can shuggle up and down and/or the door is a "rattling good fit". With a moulding covering the gap it will be next to impossible as one will be trying to insinuate the plastic around a right angle bend. This likely will cause the plastic to break or take up a permanent set, also the tenon appears to be cunningly designed to eliminate the possibility of using a piece of plastic. Remember the professional only likes easy targets.
Anyone on here an experienced in B & E ?
I had to look up what shuggling a tenon meant. ;) Yes, I see the difficulty of getting anything as flimsy as a sawn-off credit card around the moulding and into the tenony bit.
I have seen someone pick a similar lock when a neighbour got locked out, but I couldn't get close enough to see how it was done and, unfortunately, I'm not sure I could actually ask without getting strange looks.
Otherwise, I have seen emergency locksmiths with implements that looked as if they belonged to a dentist.
Even so, I still don't understand the credit-card demo as the only way to pick a lock. Nor why a screw would have been in the way.
-
I had to look up what shuggling a tenon meant. ;) Yes, I see the difficulty of getting anything as flimsy as a sawn-off credit card around the moulding and into the tenony bit.
I have seen someone pick a similar lock when a neighbour got locked out, but I couldn't get close enough to see how it was done and, unfortunately, I'm not sure I could actually ask without getting strange looks.
Otherwise, I have seen emergency locksmiths with implements that looked as if they belonged to a dentist.
Even so, I still don't understand the credit-card demo as the only way to pick a lock. Nor why a screw would have been in the way.
There are all sorts of bits available quite legitimately, like lock picks, bump keys and "how to manuals". I don't see the purpose of the credit card demonstration either. The screw would have been in the way only were the head not driven right down into the countersinking.
-
LOL
However, I'm still intrigued by what the credit-card demo was supposed to prove.
I was hoping that the credit card way was how the cleaner got in to 5A, but according to this post it couldn't have been, because of a screw as explained in this post.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1207.msg32545#msg32545
-
The windowshutter had no lock.
-
We know the shutter had no lock
-
We know the shutter had no lock
That's correct. These shutters do occasionally have a sliding horizontal snib on each corner at the bottom but I see no sign of such a mechanism at the Ocean Club premises.
(http://i.imgur.com/91ophLv.jpg?1)