UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: faithlilly on September 16, 2021, 02:29:53 PM
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10 years, untold millions of pounds and euros spent, 3 police forces and a myriad of legal organisations involved and not one single charge laid yet.
Is this possibly the most inept investigation that Europe has ever seen?
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Imo it should have been left behind in 2008 as a cold case in the country where it happened.
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Imo it should have been left behind in 2008 as a cold case in the country where it happened.
So let's all forget about Madeleine. Abducted from a village full of paedophiles.. Just move on.
Sheesh.
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10 years, untold millions of pounds and euros spent, 3 police forces and a myriad of legal organisations involved and not one single charge laid yet.
Is this possibly the most inept investigation that Europe has ever seen?
No.
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Imo it should have been left behind in 2008 as a cold case in the country where it happened.
What I find puzzling is that after 10 years the parents aren’t asking serious questions about the length of time the investigation is taking. Are they just relieved that it’s not focused on them?
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So let's all forget about Madeleine. Abducted from a village full of paedophiles.. Just move on.
Sheesh.
Allegedly
We await proof.
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What I find puzzling is that after 10 years the parents aren’t asking serious questions about the length of time the investigation is taking. Are they just relieved that it’s not focused on them?
Can I ask how you know for a fact that they are not asking questions of the Met about how long the investigation is taking? Are you under the impression that the McCanns only communcate with Operation Grange via the tabloids?
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Imo it should have been left behind in 2008 as a cold case in the country where it happened.
You cannot be serious!?!?
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Allegedly
We await proof.
I think there is plenty of proof that the village was a hot spot for paedophiles and we know that two little girls vanished from the area and the police failed to track either of them down.
If Madeleine wasn't abducted - what do you think happened to her.
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You cannot be serious!?!?
I believe it to be a serious statement.
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To suggest that PDL was 'Full' of paedophiles is quite disingenuous.
The population is about 3500.
We know of a handful of sex offenders within that number.
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I believe it to be a serious statement.
Shockingly callous if so.
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To suggest that PDL was 'Full' of paedophiles is quite disingenuous.
The population is about 3500.
We know of a handful of sex offenders within that number.
One slight flaw in your argument. The McCanns don't live in Lancashire. Nice trollin' though.
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One slight flaw in your argument. The McCanns don't live in Lancashire. Nice trollin' though.
My mistake:
Leicestershire is also full of paedophiles.
Number of sex offenders living in Leicestershire at record high according to new statistics
https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/number-sex-offenders-living-leicestershire-3506747
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My mistake:
Leicestershire is also full of paedophiles.
Number of sex offenders living in Leicestershire at record high according to new statistics
https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/number-sex-offenders-living-leicestershire-3506747
Everywhere’s full of paedophiles unfortunately. Perhaps you can supply the per capita data on paedos for Rothley versus PdL and then we will be in a better position to judge whether or not your argument holds any water.
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Shockingly callous if so.
I think so too. Then you and I probably respect the rule of law and order which we hope will lead to justice being served; I think that is the least any missing person can expect ... even people whose surname is McCann or Cipriano.
In my opinion Madeleine didn't even get eighteen months attention from the Judicial Police. The first thing Goncalo Amaral was interested in was how best to convict her parents of something - anything! He tells us so in his book and he tells us so in the nature of his leaks to the press.
I think that betrays a certain ineptitude right from the word go and I think Madeleine deserved better than that as would any other child in a like situation.
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Everywhere’s full of paedophiles unfortunately. Perhaps you can supply the per capita data on paedos for Rothley versus PdL and then we will be in a better position to judge whether or not whether your argument holds any water.
No, 'everywhere' is not 'full' of paedophiles.
There are roughly 100,000 people on the register in the UK out of a population of 66 million.
That is in no way 'full'. It's a very, very small percentage.
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No, 'everywhere' is not 'full' of paedophiles.
There are roughly 100,000 people on the register in the UK out of a population of 66 million.
That is in no way 'full'. It's a very, very small percentage.
So is nowhere full of paedos apart from Lanchashire and Leicestershire then? Make up your mind!
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No, 'everywhere' is not 'full' of paedophiles.
There are roughly 100,000 people on the register in the UK out of a population of 66 million.
That is in no way 'full'. It's a very, very small percentage.
By the way, you grossly underestimate the number of paedophiles in this country IMO
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9619045/Paedophile-threat-tripled-year-child-pornography-use-soars-lockdown.html
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By the way, you grossly underestimate the number of paedophiles in this country IMO
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9619045/Paedophile-threat-tripled-year-child-pornography-use-soars-lockdown.html
If we take 600,000 as an estimate of paedophiles in Britain, then that is roughly 1% of the population. So in Rothley we would expect between 3 and 4 paedos. How many in PdL (a town of roughly the same population as Rothley) were identified and visited by the PJ (allegedly)?
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By the way, you grossly underestimate the number of paedophiles in this country IMO
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9619045/Paedophile-threat-tripled-year-child-pornography-use-soars-lockdown.html
Those are estimates.
I'm going by the number of people on the register, actual convictions, because innocent until proven guilty & all that.
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What I find puzzling is that after 10 years the parents aren’t asking serious questions about the length of time the investigation is taking. Are they just relieved that it’s not focused on them?
10 years?🤦🏻♀️
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10 years?🤦🏻♀️
I think 10 years of Grange
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Those are estimates.
I'm going by the number of people on the register, actual convictions, because innocent until proven guilty & all that.
So you don’t count the hundreds of thousands of anonymous users of child abuse pornography as paedophiles but consider those people innocent do you?
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This New Thread lark is going quite well, inntit.
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No, 'everywhere' is not 'full' of paedophiles.
There are roughly 100,000 people on the register in the UK out of a population of 66 million.
That is in no way 'full'. It's a very, very small percentage.
Listen to wise old “Dr” Amaral - sounds like PdL was positively bursting with paedo s..mbags
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11961695/madeleine-mccann-cop-hundreds-paedophiles-algarve/
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This New Thread lark is going quite well, inntit.
Yes, let’s get back to proclaiming Operation Grange as the world’s most appalling investigation of all time.
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I think 10 years of Grange
The question states 3 different police forces (?)
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I think 10 years of Grange
I’m afraid some people need to be spoon fed.
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The question states 3 different police forces (?)
The U.K, Portugal and Germany. Of course there’s been input from other forces but those three have certainly spent the big bucks…with not one charge laid to show for it.
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Listen to wise old “Dr” Amaral - sounds like PdL was positively bursting with paedo s..mbags
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11961695/madeleine-mccann-cop-hundreds-paedophiles-algarve/
He was talking about the Algarve, not PDL specifically, Algarve has a population of roughly 438000 (2019)
So even if there were 10,000 paedophiles in the Algarve, that's still only 2.2% of the population.
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He was talking about the Algarve, not PDL specifically, Algarve has a population of roughly 438000 (2019)
So even if there were 10,000 paedophiles in the Algarve, that's still only 2.2% of the population.
And most of those appear to have come from somewhere else…unlike Leceistershire.
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He was talking about the Algarve, not PDL specifically, Algarve has a population of roughly 438000 (2019)
So even if there were 10,000 paedophiles in the Algarve, that's still only 2.2% of the population.
More than double the estimated number of paedophiles in this country.
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And most of those appear to have come from somewhere else…unlike Leceistershire.
Well yes, the Algarve is a holiday destination. I don't think the same can be said of Rothley or Leicestershire as a whole, places you probably wouldn't want to go there even if on an all expenses paid trip.
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And most of those appear to have come from somewhere else…unlike Leceistershire.
It doesn’t matter where they come from, only that they are attracted to the area for its rich pickings and lousy policing.
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It doesn’t matter where they come from, only that they are attracted to the area for its rich pickings and lousy policing.
Rich pickings????
Are you suggesting the children in the Algarve are somehow sexier?
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It doesn’t matter where they come from, only that they are attracted to the area for its rich pickings and lousy policing.
And No Paedo Register.
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Rich pickings????
Are you suggesting the children in the Algarve are somehow sexier?
What on earth gave you that warped idea?
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What on earth gave you that warped idea?
I'm not sure quite what you meant by 'rich pickings'?
Is the Algarve particularly rich in prepubescent children?
Any more so than any other place?
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“Pedro Namora, a former Casa Pia orphan who witnessed 11 rapes on fellow orphans, during which they were tied to their beds, sympathises with the McCanns. He believes elements in the force have conspired to suppress both scandals, fearing damage to the country's reputation.
"Portugal is a paedophiles' paradise," said Mr Namora, now a lawyer campaigning on behalf of the Casa Pia victims. "If all the names come out, this will be an earthquake in Portugal. There is a massive, sophisticated network at play here - stretching from the government to the judiciary and the police.
"The network is enormous and extremely powerful. There are magistrates, ambassadors, police, politicians - all have procured children from Casa Pia. It is extremely difficult to break this down. These people cover for each other, because if one is arrested, they all are arrested. They don't want anyone to know."
Now 44, Mr Namora watched as friends sank into alcoholism, drug addiction and death after their traumatic childhood experiences at Casa Pia. "I was the only one who made it," he said. "What could I do? I couldn't keep silent."
He has received death threats and warnings about what will happen to his own children, after taking up the case when an orphan called "Joel" approached him, saying prominent paedophiles were using Casa Pia as a "supermarket for children".
Mr Namora has been threatened after fighting on behalf of the abused children he grew up with.
After being telephoned by a stranger offering to pay off his mortgage, he was told the exact movements of his own three children, and warned that they and their father would come to a grisly end unless he shut up.
An open, warm man, Mr Namora makes an unlikely conspiracytheorist-But he believes the case, which he brought to light in 2003, will underscore Portugal's growing attraction for paedophiles, which has seen six children disappear in recent years.
One reason for this attraction is that the law was quietly relaxed last year, ahead of the forthcoming trial, meaning that repeat offences against the same child would merit only a single charge - and a lesser sentence.
In echoes of the McCanns' ordeal, the initial investigation was badly handled when allegations of abuse were first made at Casa Pia in 1982. Carlos Silvino, the man known as Bibi, was linked to rapes and assaults, but police "lost" pictures showing prominent Lisbon politicians with him and the children.
He was only charged after dozens of children came forward in 2003. They also accused Jorge Ritto, a former Portuguese ambassador, of child abuse. Ritto, it transpired, had also once been sent home in disgrace from a posting in Germany after an incident involving a young boy in a park.
The conspiracy did not end there. Teresa Costa Macedo, a former secretary of state for the family, has revealed that she knew about the attacks in the early Eighties - and that she had alerted General Antonio Ramalho Eanes, the then Portuguese president, about the allegations.
Mrs Costa Macedo, who remained silent for two decades after being warned she would be killed if she spoke, now says that the caretaker "was just one element in a huge paedophile network that involved important people in our country. It wasn't just him [the caretaker]. He was a procurer of children for well-known people who range from diplomats and politicians to people linked to the media".
While still a government minister, Costa Macedo handed police "photographs, an account of the methods used to spirit children out of the orphanage and testimonies of a number of children". Many of the photographs were found at ex-ambassador Jorge Ritto's house. Police reportedly found four children locked up who had been missing from Casa Pia.
Under armed guard at a safe house last week, Bibi could count himself a lucky man. He originally faced allegations that he had sexually assaulted more than 600 children. That has since been reduced to 30. Silvino has hinted at the high-level of the conspiracy, saying: "They can't touch me - there are too many people involved."
Following Ritto's arrest, the police questioned Carloz Cruz, known as Portugal's "Mr Television", and Joao Diniz, a high- society doctor and driver of the red Ferrari. The network allegedly went further. Paulo Pedroso, a government minister, was arrested and quizzed about 15 cases of child sexual abuse.
Amid allegations that paedophile networks have become endemic in Portugal - the European police force Interpol has named the country as one of the worst offenders in Europe - there are fears that the Casa Pia scandal will come to eclipse Belgium's notorious Marc Dutroux case, in which the arrest of a notorious paedophile and child murderer revealed a sordid picture of judicial and political corruption.
Of course, the Casa Pia case may have no direct link to the disappearance of Madeleine, but the culture in which such a serious child abuse network was allowed to operate is the same culture that pervades the whole of Portugal. Was it this attitude that led to the bungled initial investigation in the McCann case?”
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-488654/Why-Portugal-haven-paedophiles--disturbing-backcloth-Madeleine-case.html
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I'm not sure quite what you meant by 'rich pickings'?
Is the Algarve particularly rich in prepubescent children?
Any more so than any other place?
You do know the Algarve ( in particular resorts like PdL) are popular family holiday destinations right?
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You do know the Algarve ( in particular resorts like PdL) are popular family holiday destinations right?
So is Bognor Regis.
Not been many abductions there either.
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The U.K, Portugal and Germany. Of course there’s been input from other forces but those three have certainly spent the big bucks…with not one charge laid to show for it.
So, why comment on me needing to be ‘spoon fed’?
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What I find puzzling is that after 10 years the parents aren’t asking serious questions about the length of time the investigation is taking. Are they just relieved that it’s not focused on them?
It hasn't, of course, been a full blown investigation since October 2015, when the number of officers was cut from 29 to 4.
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So, why comment on me needing to be ‘spoon fed’?
Sorry but I’m not engaging with this sort of nonsense.
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And No Paedo Register.
That's been known to stop what ?
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Sorry but I’m not engaging with this sort of nonsense.
You should, since the comment belongs to you. Perhaps revise your ‘10 years’ (?) since you include the PJ investigation.
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That's been known to stop what ?
I don't know actually. But then I don't come across Paedophiles.
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That's been known to stop what ?
God knows.
It does seem to be endemic.
What do you suggest as an alternative to known paedophiles being registered?
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God knows.
It does seem to be endemic.
What do you suggest as an alternative to known paedophiles being registered?
There are areas of the planet still uninhabited & we are never going to eradicate child sex offences completely.
So send all the sex offenders to Antarctica or somewhere, (both male & female sex offenders) & let them start their own depraved society.
We could send all the channel migrants there too while we're at it.
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There are areas of the planet still uninhabited & we are never going to eradicate child sex offences completely.
So send all the sex offenders to Antarctica or somewhere, (both male & female sex offenders) & let them start their own depraved society.
We could send all the channel migrants there too while we're at it.
Thank you for your reply to my post.
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God knows.
It does seem to be endemic.
What do you suggest as an alternative to known paedophiles being registered?
Don't tempt me, Erngath.
Seriously though, it is a a horrible thing to contemplate the destruction of innocence involved and the lives ruined. I don't think it will ever be eradicated and the misuse of the internet has probably exacerbated the situation.
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So is Bognor Regis.
Not been many abductions there either.
you do realise not all paedophiles abduct children right?
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And No Paedo Register.
Seems as if Germany didn't have one either, but with open borders what would it achieve ? are EU citizens duty bound to inform of movements between states ?
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Sorry but I’m not engaging with this sort of nonsense.
you were rude, so the nonsense was all from you.
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Don't tempt me, Erngath.
Seriously though, it is a a horrible thing to contemplate the destruction of innocence involved and the lives ruined. I don't think it will ever be eradicated and the misuse of the internet has probably exacerbated the situation.
And Brueckner hasn't helped.
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you do realise not all paedophiles abduct children right?
Not all paedophiles actually commit sex offences either.
It's possible to be sexually attracted to children & never act on it.
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Seems as if Germany didn't have one either, but with open borders what would it achieve ? are EU citizens duty bound to inform of movements between states ?
The problem here is that often no one knows where they have gone. But a lot of English ones ran off to The Algarve.
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You should, since the comment belongs to you. Perhaps revise your ‘10 years’ (?) since you include the PJ investigation.
The PJ have been involved in the new investigation begun in 2011….or didn’t you know?
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Thank you for your reply to my post.
You're welcome.
That policy forms the centre piece in my next election manifesto, along with bringing back smoking in pubs.
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Not all paedophiles actually commit sex offences either.
It's possible to be sexually attracted to children & never act on it.
I’m aware of that, and your point is?
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The problem here is that often no one knows where they have gone. But a lot of English ones ran off to The Algarve.
Exactly , my point being the register stops what ?
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The problem here is that often no one knows where they have gone. But a lot of English ones ran off to The Algarve.
Many, sadly, stayed in the U.K., changed their name by deed poll and disappeared.
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I’m aware of that, and your point is?
We shouldn't confuse paedophiles with child sex offenders, they are two different things.
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Exactly , my point being the register stops what ?
Well it certainly isn't a deterrent because the number of reported child sex offences has risen 57% in the past 5 years.
https://www.nspcc.org.uk/about-us/news-opinion/2020/child-sexual-offences-rise/
We need tougher sentencing to deter this kind of crime, & there aren't many tougher places than Antarctica.
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We shouldn't confuse paedophiles with child sex offenders, they are two different things.
And your point is?
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Well it certainly isn't a deterrent because the number of reported child sex offences has risen 57% in the past 5 years.
https://www.nspcc.org.uk/about-us/news-opinion/2020/child-sexual-offences-rise/
We need tougher sentencing to deter this kind of crime, & there aren't many tougher places than Antarctica.
Would you send your hero “Martin Brueckner” there too?
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you were rude, so the nonsense was all from you.
Thank you, VS.
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Would you send your hero “Martin Brueckner” there too?
No, I'd let him walk free because he doesn't exist.
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The PJ have been involved in the new investigation begun in 2011….or didn’t you know?
The PJ have been involved since 3 May 2007. Are you suggesting they haven’t had expenses from that date forward?
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The PJ have been involved since 3 May 2007. Are you suggesting they haven’t had expenses from that date forward?
I’m suggesting no such thing but that investigation was closed. I was referring specifically to the investigation that was opened by the Met in 2011, I would have hoped that that was clear. Obviously not to some.
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It’s possible that the case could be solved and charges brought tomorrow, next week, next month or next year sohow is it possible to write off the investigation today as the most inept there’s ever been, especially without knowing the detail of all the work that has been undertaken to date by all police forces involved? Personally I think this thread question is rather stupid.
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Here’s an example of a case that was investigated over the course if 20 years before arrests were made. A guilty verdict was finally returned in 2020 and justice finally done. At what point should the investigation have been written off as inept and shelved as a cold case? Year 2? Year 10? Year 14?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claremont_serial_killings#Trial
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I'm feeling a bit laid back tonight for some inexplicable reason, probably due to brief insanity. But I do so wish that we could cut out the nastiness when The McCanns have never even been so much as arrested.
Let alone to each other.
I still can't get my head around Brueckner because my brain is telling me nothing, so I have no desire to say anything unpleasant about him beyond what we already know he has been convicted of.
As a Moderator who rarely does anything these days I am terrified of what I might have to do should something actually blow, even if it is only The ECHR. You see, you can all kick off in any way that you like, but I have to think about it when I no longer know what is acceptable.
The Portuguese Investigation was inept. Not much doubt about that. But can we even blame them or support them?
Amaral is a different story. But only one man in this Case. And quite possibly of an era that most of us know nothing about. He was born and raised in the years of Salazar when Crime was so easily dealt with. Beat up the prime suspect and get a confession. Problem solved and keep the population under control.
And most of the Senior Judges are from the same era and mind set. We could all do well to look at the fairly recent history of Portugal. And it is all rather sad, but only if you aren't on the wrong end of it. If you are on the wrong end of it then it is dire.
I was in Portugal during both Revolutions but all I saw was a bunch of idiots jumping out of the undergrowth with guns who didn't have much idea of what they were trying to do and who didn't frighten me at all. But then I am not easily frightened. Perhaps I should have been.
But you see, this was still the mind set in 2007. Portugal still hadn't moved on. And I am not frightfully sure that it has to this day. No one wants to rock the boat you see. Tourism and all that crap. Any old rubbish will do. And Praia da Luz isn't exactly the creme de la creme. But large areas of The Algarve are still very poor for the peasants who live there. The peasants that still have no voice.
As for the current hierarchy of The PJ. They are a disgrace. They knew what was going on and did absolutely nothing and still to this day do nothing.
I am appalled by the fact that such a beautiful country should have been so abused.
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If only I knew what you Liked about my Comment, Davel. Probably something awfully innocuous somewhere in the middle which wasn't much to do with anything I had to say.
There I go again. Half as daft and twice as stupid, but always and only in my own opinion. I think that I am stupid.
So many of us express our selves badly and perhaps don't really mean what we say. Even Davel with his dreadful Text Thingy that can't spell.
Grammar? Forget it. Although my grammar is excellent. But I can't half split an infinitive even when I know that I am doing it. Somehow the vernacular comes more easily, but doesn't always express what one means.
I just want you all to think about what you say and to try to be a little less unkind, including to that dreadful Amaral character who probably isn't actually responsible for what he says. Who knows what you would do if you have never been really poor?
Me, I have been cash short for all of my life so this doesn't really apply to me. But then I am a one off. I don't pass the buck. I am just who I am and if I can't hack it then the fault is mine.
I am pretty nearly damned sure that I would like every one of you if we ever met. Your opinions wouldn't matter to me because they actually don't matter.
I will go on defending The McCanns and hoping that Madeleine is still alive. But sadly even that doesn't matter any more.
So if we could try to be kind then I would be grateful.
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Here’s a good example of one of the most inept (not to mention corrupt) investigations in recent European history
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Dutroux#Errors_during_investigation
I would say that the first few months of the investigation into Madeleine’s disappearance were pretty close in terms of sheer ineptness, it’s just the level of corruption involved we can’t yet be sure of.
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I think there is plenty of proof that the village was a hot spot for paedophiles and we know that two little girls vanished from the area and the police failed to track either of them down.
If Madeleine wasn't abducted - what do you think happened to her.
There was evidence to suggest the "abduction" was staged and that she died in the holiday apartment during one of the several nights when she was left without adult supervision, in my opinion.
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Here’s a good example of one of the most inept (not to mention corrupt) investigations in recent European history
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Dutroux#Errors_during_investigation
I would say that the first few months of the investigation into Madeleine’s disappearance were pretty close in terms of sheer ineptness, it’s just the level of corruption involved we can’t yet be sure of.
Yet that is the part of the investigation that Operation Grange accept as all important in clearing the parents from any involvement!!
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There was evidence to suggest the "abduction" was staged and that she died in the holiday apartment during one of the several nights when she was left without adult supervision, in my opinion.
What is the evidence of death.. I don't see any
Similarly what is the evidence for staging
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Here’s an example of a case that was investigated over the course if 20 years before arrests were made. A guilty verdict was finally returned in 2020 and justice finally done. At what point should the investigation have been written off as inept and shelved as a cold case? Year 2? Year 10? Year 14?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claremont_serial_killings#Trial
I think there's a big difference between investigating a crime which was committed within the jurisdiction of the investigating police force and one which didn't. Can a competent investigation be carried out when investigators are based 1300 miles away, have little local knowledge, a language barrier and are unable to interview people or check their backgrounds without time-consuming negotiations with local authorities?
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I think there's a big difference between investigating a crime which was committed within the jurisdiction of the investigating police force and one which didn't. Can a competent investigation be carried out when investigators are based 1300 miles away, have little local knowledge, a language barrier and are unable to interview people or check their backgrounds without time-consuming negotiations with local authorities?
You have your opinion.. Others have theirs.
The Germans managed to solve the the rape case and may well have solved the Maddie case.
The PJ were aware of CBs presence in Luz.. Was this info made available to SY
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Yet that is the part of the investigation that Operation Grange accept as all important in clearing the parents from any involvement!!
Do you have a cite?
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I think there's a big difference between investigating a crime which was committed within the jurisdiction of the investigating police force and one which didn't. Can a competent investigation be carried out when investigators are based 1300 miles away, have little local knowledge, a language barrier and are unable to interview people or check their backgrounds without time-consuming negotiations with local authorities?
Someone’s got to do it, and if the local police are inept, incompetent and corrupt then why not? I suppose if Madeleine was your granddaughter you’d be quite content for the investigation into her disappearance to be indefinitely shelved, but not everyone is like you.
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You have your opinion.. Others have theirs.
The Germans managed to solve the the rape case and may well have solved the Maddie case.
The PJ were aware of CBs presence in Luz.. Was this info made available to SY
Operation Grange is not similar to the German investigations.
The Germans got involved in the rape case only because they were informed that a German citizen was involved. All they needed to do was make a request using MLA to see if the forensic evidence gathered by the local investigators implicated their suspect.
They have also been informed that the same person was involved in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. They were unable to connect him to the crime using forensic evidence so they appealed to the public for information 15 months ago. Given the time which has elapsed it seems that their appeal didn't reveal the definitive evidence they needed.
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Operation Grange is not similar to the German investigations.
The Germans got involved in the rape case only because they were informed that a German citizen was involved. All they needed to do was make a request using MLA to see if the forensic evidence gathered by the local investigators implicated their suspect.
They have also been informed that the same person was involved in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. They were unable to connect him to the crime using forensic evidence so they appealed to the public for information 15 months ago. Given the time which has elapsed it seems that their appeal didn't reveal the definitive evidence they needed.
To what forensic evidence do you refer? I believe samples from 5A were requested for retesting but the request was denied. Putting the German Police and the English Police in exactly the same boat when it came to requesting assistance at certain stages of their investigations into Madeleine McCann's disappearance as far as the Portuguese are concerned.
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Operation Grange is not similar to the German investigations.
The Germans got involved in the rape case only because they were informed that a German citizen was involved. All they needed to do was make a request using MLA to see if the forensic evidence gathered by the local investigators implicated their suspect.
They have also been informed that the same person was involved in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. They were unable to connect him to the crime using forensic evidence so they appealed to the public for information 15 months ago. Given the time which has elapsed it seems that their appeal didn't reveal the definitive evidence they needed.
The Germans are investigating a case in a foreign country and many of the points you made re Grange apply to them.
You have no idea what concrete evidence Wolters has that convinces him CB murdered Maddie... And you have no idea what other evidence he has collected.
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To what forensic evidence do you refer? I believe samples from 5A were requested for retesting but the request was denied. Putting the German Police and the English Police in exactly the same boat when it came to requesting assistance at certain stages of their investigations into Madeleine McCann's disappearance as far as the Portuguese are concerned.
On what evidence is your belief based?
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On what evidence is your belief based?
I asked you what forensic evidence you referred to in your post. Did you miss that?
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I asked you what forensic evidence you referred to in your post. Did you miss that?
A hair found in the raped woman's bed.
https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-mail/20200605/281573767921011
Your turn!
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A hair found in the raped woman's bed.
https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-mail/20200605/281573767921011
Your turn!
Lol 😁 The Mail 😁
Thank you for that. But you have chosen to give me the wrong answer to my question haven't you.
You posted "They have also been informed that the same person was involved in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. They were unable to connect him to the crime using forensic evidence ..."
To which I responded "To what forensic evidence do you refer? I believe samples from 5A were requested for retesting but the request was denied."
So far as we know the heinous rape and torture Brueckner perpetrated in close proximity to his home and in close proximity to the McCann apartment has no connection to Madeleine's abduction. You appear to be prejudging that issue.
So how about putting your mind to taking 'your turn' and giving me the answer to the question I asked. Which concerned Brueckner and as you claim in your post "They were unable to connect him to the crime using forensic evidence ..."
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Lol 😁 The Mail 😁
Thank you for that. But you have chosen to give me the wrong answer to my question haven't you.
You posted "They have also been informed that the same person was involved in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. They were unable to connect him to the crime using forensic evidence ..."
To which I responded "To what forensic evidence do you refer? I believe samples from 5A were requested for retesting but the request was denied."
So far as we know the heinous rape and torture Brueckner perpetrated in close proximity to his home and in close proximity to the McCann apartment has no connection to Madeleine's abduction. You appear to be prejudging that issue.
So how about putting your mind to taking 'your turn' and giving me the answer to the question I asked. Which concerned Brueckner and as you claim in your post "They were unable to connect him to the crime using forensic evidence ..."
Mr Wolters said: "There is no forensic evidence
https://news.sky.com/story/the-disappearance-of-madeleine-mccann-have-they-got-the-right-man-this-time-12068118
Obviously were unable to connect CB to the crime using forensic evidence.
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Mr Wolters said: "There is no forensic evidence
https://news.sky.com/story/the-disappearance-of-madeleine-mccann-have-they-got-the-right-man-this-time-12068118
Obviously were unable to connect CB to the crime using forensic evidence.
I don't think they were allowed to make the attempt exactly as Scotland Yard weren't allowed to make theirs.
Martin Brunt
Crime correspondent @skymartinbrunt
Wednesday 17 June 2020 14:09, UK
German investigators want to retest a saliva sample found in the holiday apartment from where Madeleine McCann went missing.
Portuguese forensic tests have found no DNA match to the new suspect, German drifter Christian B.
It is believed the sample is only a trace, and in the 13 years since it was collected it has been impossible to extract any DNA profile from it.
The German authorities believe their scientists should carry out their own tests because they consider the sample potentially vital evidence and they hope they can match it to their suspect.
But the Portuguese police (PJ) are unlikely to send the sample, partly because of recent criticism by Hans Christian Wolters, the German prosecutor in Braunschweig.
He said last week the PJ still believed that Madeleine's parents were responsible for their daughter's disappearance from the apartment in Praia da Luz in 2007. The PJ ruled out the McCanns as suspects in 2008.
There may also be legal restrictions that would block the sample being sent abroad for retesting, although it is usual for senior investigating officers from different forces to agree to such co-operation.
In 2012 Scotland Yard detectives visited a Portuguese forensic laboratory when they were about to launch their own investigation and their request to retest hairs found in the apartment was turned down.
Prosecutor Mr Wolters refused to discuss the case or any request for the sample when contacted by Sky News.
It is not known which sample the German authorities have asked for, but many were collected and tested after Madeleine vanished.
A saliva sample found on a bedspread on a spare bed near Madeleine's was eventually matched with the DNA of a young boy whose family had stayed in the apartment the week before the McCanns.
https://news.sky.com/story/madeleine-mccann-german-police-want-to-retest-mystery-saliva-sample-12008482
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I don't think they were allowed to make the attempt exactly as Scotland Yard weren't allowed to make theirs.
Martin Brunt
Crime correspondent @skymartinbrunt
Wednesday 17 June 2020 14:09, UK
German investigators want to retest a saliva sample found in the holiday apartment from where Madeleine McCann went missing.
Portuguese forensic tests have found no DNA match to the new suspect, German drifter Christian B.
It is believed the sample is only a trace, and in the 13 years since it was collected it has been impossible to extract any DNA profile from it.
The German authorities believe their scientists should carry out their own tests because they consider the sample potentially vital evidence and they hope they can match it to their suspect.
But the Portuguese police (PJ) are unlikely to send the sample, partly because of recent criticism by Hans Christian Wolters, the German prosecutor in Braunschweig.
He said last week the PJ still believed that Madeleine's parents were responsible for their daughter's disappearance from the apartment in Praia da Luz in 2007. The PJ ruled out the McCanns as suspects in 2008.
There may also be legal restrictions that would block the sample being sent abroad for retesting, although it is usual for senior investigating officers from different forces to agree to such co-operation.
In 2012 Scotland Yard detectives visited a Portuguese forensic laboratory when they were about to launch their own investigation and their request to retest hairs found in the apartment was turned down.
Prosecutor Mr Wolters refused to discuss the case or any request for the sample when contacted by Sky News.
It is not known which sample the German authorities have asked for, but many were collected and tested after Madeleine vanished.
A saliva sample found on a bedspread on a spare bed near Madeleine's was eventually matched with the DNA of a young boy whose family had stayed in the apartment the week before the McCanns.
https://news.sky.com/story/madeleine-mccann-german-police-want-to-retest-mystery-saliva-sample-12008482
I suppose he ought to be thankful that he didn't disappear, but no doubt his parents were more careful about his well-being.
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I don't think they were allowed to make the attempt exactly as Scotland Yard weren't allowed to make theirs.
Martin Brunt
Crime correspondent @skymartinbrunt
Wednesday 17 June 2020 14:09, UK
German investigators want to retest a saliva sample found in the holiday apartment from where Madeleine McCann went missing.
Portuguese forensic tests have found no DNA match to the new suspect, German drifter Christian B.
It is believed the sample is only a trace, and in the 13 years since it was collected it has been impossible to extract any DNA profile from it.
The German authorities believe their scientists should carry out their own tests because they consider the sample potentially vital evidence and they hope they can match it to their suspect.
But the Portuguese police (PJ) are unlikely to send the sample, partly because of recent criticism by Hans Christian Wolters, the German prosecutor in Braunschweig.
He said last week the PJ still believed that Madeleine's parents were responsible for their daughter's disappearance from the apartment in Praia da Luz in 2007. The PJ ruled out the McCanns as suspects in 2008.
There may also be legal restrictions that would block the sample being sent abroad for retesting, although it is usual for senior investigating officers from different forces to agree to such co-operation.
In 2012 Scotland Yard detectives visited a Portuguese forensic laboratory when they were about to launch their own investigation and their request to retest hairs found in the apartment was turned down.
Prosecutor Mr Wolters refused to discuss the case or any request for the sample when contacted by Sky News.
It is not known which sample the German authorities have asked for, but many were collected and tested after Madeleine vanished.
A saliva sample found on a bedspread on a spare bed near Madeleine's was eventually matched with the DNA of a young boy whose family had stayed in the apartment the week before the McCanns.
https://news.sky.com/story/madeleine-mccann-german-police-want-to-retest-mystery-saliva-sample-12008482
I don't know of any unidentified saliva sample collected by the Portuguese. Maybe Brunt got his wires crossed like he did with the 'full DNA match to Madeleine' he once reported.
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I suppose he ought to be thankful that he didn't disappear, but no doubt his parents were more careful about his well-being.
I think everyone who had taken their children on holiday to Luz during that period must be eternally grateful it wasn't their child who vanished from their bed ~ and that was even before they became aware of the prolific sexual predator on the loose in the Algarve.
Madeleine McCann police seek intruder who attacked girls at holiday homes
Police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann from a Portuguese holiday resort nearly seven years ago say a lone intruder sexually assaulted five girls aged between seven and 10 in the Algarve between 2004 and 2006.
The four incidents – one involving two girls – were among 12 over six years up to 2010 being examined by officers in which a man entered holiday accommodation, mainly villas occupied by British families.
In six of those incidents, the man, said to be dark-haired and tanned, sat on the victims' beds. In nine of the 12 incidents there was no evidence of forced entry or property taken. In three others there was "low-level" theft involving cash or phones. Police said he appeared to have "a very, very, unhealthy interest" in young white girls.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"These offences are very serious and no one has been charged in connection with them. We also need to eliminate this man from our inquiries and ascertain whether these offences are linked to Madeleine's disappearance," he said.
"If you have been a victim of a similar crime please come forward even if you reported the incident to police in Portugal, or anywhere else, please do not assume we have been made aware of it."
There was also a "very close resonance" to some features of Madeleine's disappearance, said Redwood.
"We really need to identify the offender, to bring to a close the trauma and the tragedy that these families have suffered, and then seek to establish whether this is connected to Madeleine's disappearance."
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Efits of two fair-haired men seen near the McCanns' apartment were also released and police in the UK and Portugal have also been investigating break-ins around the resort, one of which occurred the same week a year before Madeleine disappeared and involved a man who entered a flat where young children were sleeping.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve
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I don't know of any unidentified saliva sample collected by the Portuguese. Maybe Brunt got his wires crossed like he did with the 'full DNA match to Madeleine' he once reported.
The German investigation made the request. The Portuguese denied it. Exactly as they denied the British investigators access to forensic material in their possession.
One could almost imagine that someone in authority in Portugal does not want this investigation to succeed.
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I don't know of any unidentified saliva sample collected by the Portuguese. Maybe Brunt got his wires crossed like he did with the 'full DNA match to Madeleine' he once reported.
You are assuming Brunt got his wires crossed... What evidence do you have for this. More likely the PJ were pedling false information... Theres evidence to support that
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The German investigation made the request. The Portuguese denied it. Exactly as they denied the British investigators access to forensic material in their possession.
One could almost imagine that someone in authority in Portugal does not want this investigation to succeed.
Maybe, or maybe because it had already been identified there was no need to retest.
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The German investigation made the request. The Portuguese denied it. Exactly as they denied the British investigators access to forensic material in their possession.
One could almost imagine that someone in authority in Portugal does not want this investigation to succeed.
Neither the Germans or the British police have ever made such claims imo.
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Neither the Germans or the British police have ever made such claims imo.
I think there is something seriously amiss with this tactic you are employing of denial. There is absolutely no point in anyone other than you and those with whom you agree posting cites.
I have found that any I have supplied of late have been subject to your derision of denial.
You cite the Mail - and that is kosher.
I cite the Mail - and you question if the report ever happened.
It is not an edifying tactic which you have employed in the past as now and in my opinion reeks of dishonesty.
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The German investigation made the request. The Portuguese denied it. Exactly as they denied the British investigators access to forensic material in their possession.
One could almost imagine that someone in authority in Portugal does not want this investigation to succeed.
I suppose it has a lot to do with jealousy between judicial police authorities. It wouldn't sit too well in Portugal if the Brits or the Germans solve this Portuguese case.
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I think there is something seriously amiss with this tactic you are employing of denial. There is absolutely no point in anyone other than you and those with whom you agree posting cites.
I have found that any I have supplied of late have been subject to your derision of denial.
You cite the Mail - and that is kosher.
I cite the Mail - and you question if the report ever happened.
It is not an edifying tactic which you have employed in the past as now and in my opinion reeks of dishonesty.
I cited a story by Martin Brunt, as did you. In my cite he quoted Wolters. In your cite he quoted no-one. It's also possible to check what samples were collected during the first investigation and I could only find one sample described as saliva, the DNA from which was extracted by the Portuguese Forensic Institute and matched to the DNA of a British child by the FSS in the UK.
That sample was originally identified as semen by the Portuguese Forensic Institute, but the FSS matched it to a two year old boy, and on that basis concluded that it was saliva, not semen.
Perhaps that process is what the Germans wanted to check out?
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I suppose it has a lot to do with jealousy between judicial police authorities. It wouldn't sit too well in Portugal if the Brits or the Germans solve this Portuguese case.
It wouldn't sit well if the Germans found a mistake by the FSS either.
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I suppose it has a lot to do with jealousy between judicial police authorities. It wouldn't sit too well in Portugal if the Brits or the Germans solve this Portuguese case.
British and Portuguese police already at odds over Madeleine McCann search as it emerges that Scotland Yard detectives can only watch their counterparts dig despite covering huge cost
- British and Portuguese police already at odds over Madeleine McCann search as it emerges that Scotland Yard detectives can only watch their counterparts dig despite covering huge cost
- Portuguese authorities approved Scotland Yard's plans to excavate site
- But they blocked request to search homes of suspects at Algarve resort
- Suspects were working at Ocean Club resort when Madeleine vanished
- They 'carried out break-ins at resort in run-up to Maddie's disappearance'
- But investigators are starting to dig waste ground at Praia da Luz resort
- Despite huge interest in case, Portuguese police are demanding secrecy
- They have threatened to halt their search if media is given information
By PAUL BENTLEY FOR THE DAILY MAIL and REBECCA CAMBER FOR THE DAILY MAIL and GERARD COUZENS FOR MAILONLINE and MARK DUELL
PUBLISHED: 10:40, 7 May 2014 | UPDATED: 07:41, 8 May 2014
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2622233/British-police-leading-hunt-Madeleine-McCann-banned-searching-homes-burglary-suspects.html
I think initially the tensions between both forces was intense. From what I saw of the actual search I didn't see many Portuguese officers getting their sleeves rolled up and making the brits watch them work. It was very much the other way round.
As far as the present German investigation goes I think they are now feeling the same tensions the British did as the legal processes drag out.
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I cited a story by Martin Brunt, as did you. In my cite he quoted Wolters. In your cite he quoted no-one. It's also possible to check what samples were collected during the first investigation and I could only find one sample described as saliva, the DNA from which was extracted by the Portuguese Forensic Institute and matched to the DNA of a British child by the FSS in the UK.
That sample was originally identified as semen by the Portuguese Forensic Institute, but the FSS matched it to a two year old boy, and on that basis concluded that it was saliva, not semen.
Perhaps that process is what the Germans wanted to check out?
I'm not entering into any long winded discussion with you about this. Just endeavour to exercise a little common sense and who knows it may go some way to make every members posting experience a much pleasanter one.
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I'm not entering into any long winded discussion with you about this. Just endeavour to exercise a little common sense and who knows it may go some way to make every members posting experience a much pleasanter one.
Whatever. My original claim remains correct; the Germans can't connect CB to the McCann case with forensic evidence.
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Whatever. My original claim remains correct; the Germans can't connect CB to the McCann case with forensic evidence.
They dont need to..
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They dont need to..
So therefore Gunit is correct, at last some begrudging accord.
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So therefore Gunit is correct, at last some begrudging accord.
Like many of her posts it's old news... No begrudging necessary
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Like many of her posts it's old news... No begrudging necessary
Its noted it'll never come you.
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Its noted it'll never come you.
I think those following the case know there's no forensic evidence
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Like many of her posts it's old news... No begrudging necessary
My original point was that although, as you pointed out, the Germans managed to solve the rape case they were aided by a forensic connection between the criminal and the crime scene.
Although you think they may solve the McCann case, they will, as I pointed out, not have forensic evidence. Nor does their public appeal seem to have been helpful.
Unlike you, I think they have a lot to do. I'm sure they are aware of the difficulties of no body murder trials. I could only find one example in recent years in Germany. The victim was Rudolph Rupp and if you like miscarriage of justice cases it was a prime example. An associated case was the prosecution of a scrap dealer, Ludwig H., who was allegedly threatened at gun point when he refused to sign an interrogation protocol. It seems the Germans are as bad if not worse than the Portuguese when they have a suspect in their sights.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todesfall_Rudolf_Rupp
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My original point was that although, as you pointed out, the Germans managed to solve the rape case they were aided by a forensic connection between the criminal and the crime scene.
Although you think they may solve the McCann case, they will, as I pointed out, not have forensic evidence. Nor does their public appeal seem to have been helpful.
Unlike you, I think they have a lot to do. I'm sure they are aware of the difficulties of no body murder trials. I could only find one example in recent years in Germany. The victim was Rudolph Rupp and if you like miscarriage of justice cases it was a prime example. An associated case was the prosecution of a scrap dealer, Ludwig H., who was allegedly threatened at gun point when he refused to sign an interrogation protocol. It seems the Germans are as bad if not worse than the Portuguese when they have a suspect in their sights.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todesfall_Rudolf_Rupp
A guilty verdict relies on the evidence... Forensic is not necessary. It will be interesting to see what evidence has convinced HCW that CB murdered Maddie
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A guilty verdict relies on the evidence... Forensic is not necessary. It will be interesting to see what evidence has convinced HCW that CB murdered Maddie
It'll never see a court room nor the light of day imo.
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A guilty verdict relies on the evidence... Forensic is not necessary. It will be interesting to see what evidence has convinced HCW that CB murdered Maddie
Are you sure he's been convinced? An assumption is a supposition without proof;
“We assume that the girl is dead,” Braunschweig state prosecutor Hans Christian Wolters said.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-portugal-mccann-idUSKBN23B0RI
“Because there is no forensic evidence there may be a little bit of hope [that she is alive],” the spokesperson for the Braunschweig public prosecutor’s office told the paper.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/madeleine-mccann-update-death-alive-germany-christian-bruckner-a9565441.html
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Are you sure he's been convinced? An assumption is a supposition without proof;
“We assume that the girl is dead,” Braunschweig state prosecutor Hans Christian Wolters said.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-portugal-mccann-idUSKBN23B0RI
“Because there is no forensic evidence there may be a little bit of hope [that she is alive],” the spokesperson for the Braunschweig public prosecutor’s office told the paper.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/madeleine-mccann-update-death-alive-germany-christian-bruckner-a9565441.html
Yes I'm sure he's convinced. ...if you listen to everything he has said. What you have done is takes a couple of phrases out of context.
It totally fits with Rui Pedro... Assumed dead but noo forensic evidence
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It's impossible to know what hard evidence, if any, German police have got, but obviously not sufficient to actually charge and prosecute him or they would have done so.
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It's impossible to know what hard evidence, if any, German police have got, but obviously not sufficient to actually charge and prosecute him or they would have done so.
They could well have enough to charge and prosecute him
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I don't think The German Police need to do anything much at the moment. They have got a while or two.
But what is killing me, in a laughable sense, is that never in all of my born days have I seen such an "about face" when it comes to Innocent until Proven Guilty.
Are none of you even remotely ashamed of what you have been doing for the last Fourteen Years?
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Yes I'm sure he's convinced. ...if you listen to everything he has said. What you have done is takes a couple of phrases out of context.
It totally fits with Rui Pedro... Assumed dead but noo forensic evidence
There is just so much going on in the background of Madeleine's case that I don't think any solution is going to be arrived at any time soon.
Back in 2009 the much derided McCann detectives Met3 were instrumental in uncovering a Spanish paedophile ring which no doubt had long reaching tentacles
13 PEOPLE ARRESTED
Investigation to find Madeleine McCann reveals pedophilic network in Spain
PÚBLICO
January 19, 2009, 11:14
Detectives from the Spanish agency hired by the parents of Madeleine McCann, who disappeared in the Algarve in May 2007, detected a network of pedophilia that was acting on the Internet. Method3 detectives informed authorities of what they found, which led to the arrest of 13 people and the prosecution of ten others across the country, according to spanish daily El Mundo. https://www.publico.pt/2009/01/19/sociedade/noticia/investigacao-para-encontrar-madeleine-mccann-revela-rede-pedofila-em-espanha-1356654
We know that Brueckner was a crime wave in himself which he didn't confine to the Algarve but travelled extensively to indulge.
The Germans have a lot of work to do to catch up with him and check out other cases with which he may be involved many of which might have nothing to do with Madeleine's case.
I too consider that the Germans know what they are doing regarding Madeleine's case and I think they will take it as far as it will go. Which is almost certainly a lot farther than the PJ took their inquiry (if there was one) into Brueckner's activities back in 2007.
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I don't think The German Police need to do anything much at the moment. They have got a while or two.
But what is killing me, in a laughable sense, is that never in all of my born days have I seen such an "about face" when it comes to Innocent until Proven Guilty.
Are none of you even remotely ashamed of what you have been doing for the last Fourteen Years?
The discussion is about evidence, not about the presumption of innocence.
What I see is some people who seem convinced that the Germans have found the murderer of Madeleine McCann without having any idea what evidence there is to support that claim. At least those people who have doubts about the McCanns know why the PJ suspected them.
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They could well have enough to charge and prosecute him
I think they probably do but I think it possible there may be other cases which might be prejudiced if they do.
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The discussion is about evidence, not about the presumption of innocence.
What I see is some people who seem convinced that the Germans have found the murderer of Madeleine McCann without having any idea what evidence there is to support that claim. At least those people who have doubts about the McCanns know why the PJ suspected them.
Are you one of "those people" who have doubt about the McCanns
I think you are.
I'm one of "those people" who know that the PJ suspicions of them were based on inept investigation and total misinterpretation of the evidence.
What's your excuse.
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The discussion is about evidence, not about the presumption of innocence.
What I see is some people who seem convinced that the Germans have found the murderer of Madeleine McCann without having any idea what evidence there is to support that claim. At least those people who have doubts about the McCanns know why the PJ suspected them.
According to the PJ the main evidence against the McCanns was the dog alerts..as Ive said they did not understand the evidence... I don't see the Germans being so stupid
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I don't think The German Police need to do anything much at the moment. They have got a while or two.
But what is killing me, in a laughable sense, is that never in all of my born days have I seen such an "about face" when it comes to Innocent until Proven Guilty.
Are none of you even remotely ashamed of what you have been doing for the last Fourteen Years?
Thinking about it rationally, I don't think it is possible to do what has been done to the McCanns while defending Brueckner's right to the presumption of innocence with vigour, without indulging some rather skewed thought processes.
I doubt there was a more inept police investigation ever than the initial one the Portuguese police carried out back in 2007 which succeeded in nothing but generating the present rumour mill.
I don't expect the present German investigation to leave that sort of negative legacy and I don't think it will.
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Are you one of "those people" who have doubt about the McCanns
I think you are.
I'm one of "those people" who know that the PJ suspicions of them were based on inept investigation and total misinterpretation of the evidence.
What's your excuse.
I think I've made it clear that I have doubts about the McCanns, although I would never be arrogant enough to claim smugly that I know what happened to Madeleine. Any investigation can be criticised no matter where it takes place and by whom. In my opinion those who dismiss the first investigation completely don't know as much as they think they do.
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According to the PJ the main evidence against the McCanns was the dog alerts..as Ive said they did not understand the evidence... I don't see the Germans being so stupid
I do so admire your restraint. Me? I get a bit cross sometimes. But it doesn't actually help.
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Thinking about it rationally, I don't think it is possible to do what has been done to the McCanns while defending Brueckner's right to the presumption of innocence with vigour, without indulging some rather skewed thought processes.
I doubt there was a more inept police investigation ever than the initial one the Portuguese police carried out back in 2007 which succeeded in nothing but generating the present rumour mill.
I don't expect the present German investigation to leave that sort of negative legacy and I don't think it will.
I think that it might be a bit more serious than you say. But since The McCanns are never going to be indicted then it probably no longer matters.
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I think I've made it clear that I have doubts about the McCanns, although I would never be arrogant enough to claim smugly that I know what happened to Madeleine. Any investigation can be criticised no matter where it takes place and by whom. In my opinion those who dismiss the first investigation completely don't know as much as they think they do.
I don't know what happened to Madeleine McCann. But unlike you and others, I don't see that as carte blanche for mouthing off "my doubts" for over fourteen years.
Something other than "doubts" must drive that and I am interested in what that may be ~ but I sure don't expect any enlightenment to that.
... and as far as the botched first investigation goes ~ I think you have hammered home the nail in that I certainly don't know much about what actually went on.
I think it is an absolute sure certainty that I would be even more appalled by the conduct of affairs did I know even one iota of what went on in the underbelly of the PJ populated by the leaders of the investigation some of whom ended their PJ careers as convicted criminals themselves.
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I don't know what happened to Madeleine McCann. But unlike you and others, I don't see that as carte blanche for mouthing off "my doubts" for over fourteen years.
Something other than "doubts" must drive that and I am interested in what that may be ~ but I sure don't expect any enlightenment to that.
... and as far as the botched first investigation goes ~ I think you have hammered home the nail in that I certainly don't know much about what actually went on.
I think it is an absolute sure certainty that I would be even more appalled by the conduct of affairs did I know even one iota of what went on in the underbelly of the PJ populated by the leaders of the investigation some of whom ended their PJ careers as convicted criminals themselves.
That is the most interesting thing. So many of The PJ were and now are Criminals themselves. This has got to be a joke. The Police Force of an entire Nation?
Who were these people who convicted at least two people on confessions acquired by beatings?
Fortunately Kate McCann was never physically beaten, but then that is why The British Ambassador was there so quickly.
And I hope that Britain is mortally ashamed of what happened. to Michael Cooke.
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I don't know what happened to Madeleine McCann. But unlike you and others, I don't see that as carte blanche for mouthing off "my doubts" for over fourteen years.
Something other than "doubts" must drive that and I am interested in what that may be ~ but I sure don't expect any enlightenment to that.
... and as far as the botched first investigation goes ~ I think you have hammered home the nail in that I certainly don't know much about what actually went on.
I think it is an absolute sure certainty that I would be even more appalled by the conduct of affairs did I know even one iota of what went on in the underbelly of the PJ populated by the leaders of the investigation some of whom ended their PJ careers as convicted criminals themselves.
It may have escaped your notice, but there has been a concerted effort to prevent any discussion of the McCann case which didn't uphold the story they told. A wide range of people were threatened in various ways in an attempt to prevent certain facts and opinions being expressed. No stone was left unturned; from dossiers gathered about ordinary people to high profile libel actions against media outlets.
In my opinion those efforts ensured that people found ways of expressing their opinions nevertheless. Why? Perhaps because people suspected that the adage 'no smoke without fire' had some truth in it. The unremitting determination to silence questioners simply reinforced their conviction that speaking out was necessary imo.
The PJ may have made mistakes, and their efforts may have been hampered, but they still trod their own path. Imo attempts were made to persuade them, like Operation Grange, to investigate only abduction by a stranger, but they didn't comply.
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That is the most interesting thing. So many of The PJ were and now are Criminals themselves. This has got to be a joke. The Police Force of an entire Nation?
Who were these people who convicted at least two people on confessions acquired by beatings?
Fortunately Kate McCann was never physically beaten, but then that is why The British Ambassador was there so quickly.
And I hope that Britain is mortally ashamed of what happened. to Michael Cooke.
I think you need to acknowledge that other police forces do things differently. The German police resemble the PJ much more than they resemble the British police, as do the French police. Did you see how a German policeman put his gun to the head of a suspect to persuade him to do as they wanted him to do? They're quite happy to obtain confessions by suspect means also.
https://second.wiki/wiki/todesfall_rudolf_rupp
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It may have escaped your notice, but there has been a concerted effort to prevent any discussion of the McCann case which didn't uphold the story they told. A wide range of people were threatened in various ways in an attempt to prevent certain facts and opinions being expressed. No stone was left unturned; from dossiers gathered about ordinary people to high profile libel actions against media outlets.
In my opinion those efforts ensured that people found ways of expressing their opinions nevertheless. Why? Perhaps because people suspected that the adage 'no smoke without fire' had some truth in it. The unremitting determination to silence questioners simply reinforced their conviction that speaking out was necessary imo.
The PJ may have made mistakes, and their efforts may have been hampered, but they still trod their own path. Imo attempts were made to persuade them, like Operation Grange, to investigate only abduction by a stranger, but they didn't comply.
A vast exaggeration of the truth IMO. Did it ever occur to you that the McCanns might actually be innocent? I bet it never!
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I think you need to acknowledge that other police forces do things differently. The German police resemble the PJ much more than they resemble the British police, as do the French police. Did you see how a German policeman put his gun to the head of a suspect to persuade him to do as they wanted him to do? They're quite happy to obtain confessions by suspect means also.
https://second.wiki/wiki/todesfall_rudolf_rupp
Be careful, you're in danger of sounding critical of the PJ's methods of conducting interviews of suspects.
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I think I've made it clear that I have doubts about the McCanns, although I would never be arrogant enough to claim smugly that I know what happened to Madeleine. Any investigation can be criticised no matter where it takes place and by whom. In my opinion those who dismiss the first investigation completely don't know as much as they think they do.
I dont claim to know what happened to Maddie but based on all the evidence its possible to decide whats most likely.
i dismiss the first investigation because they based their beliefs on an inability to understand the evidence....Imo I dismiss it because I have a very good understanding of the evidence. Not sure why you feel the need to use words like arrogant and smugly...it really lowers your credibility imo
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It may have escaped your notice, but there has been a concerted effort to prevent any discussion of the McCann case which didn't uphold the story they told. A wide range of people were threatened in various ways in an attempt to prevent certain facts and opinions being expressed. No stone was left unturned; from dossiers gathered about ordinary people to high profile libel actions against media outlets.
In my opinion those efforts ensured that people found ways of expressing their opinions nevertheless. Why? Perhaps because people suspected that the adage 'no smoke without fire' had some truth in it. The unremitting determination to silence questioners simply reinforced their conviction that speaking out was necessary imo.
The PJ may have made mistakes, and their efforts may have been hampered, but they still trod their own path. Imo attempts were made to persuade them, like Operation Grange, to investigate only abduction by a stranger, but they didn't comply.
I find your post strange and not really in touch with reality. Nothing has been suppressed...its just that we have laws of libel. the McCanns havent enjoyed any special treatment in what can and cannot be said about them.
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I dont claim to know what happened to Maddie but based on all the evidence its possible to decide whats most likely.
i dismiss the first investigation because they based their beliefs on an inability to understand the evidence....Imo I dismiss it because I have a very good understanding of the evidence. Not sure why you feel the need to use words like arrogant and smugly...it really lowers your credibility imo
But words like arrogant and smugly are pertinent when given with No Evidence. Some last ditch to God knows what.
Sorry, my thoughts on subject aren't the same as yours. But no less pertinent. There has never been any evidence against The McCanns.
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I find your post strange and not really in touch with reality. Nothing has been suppressed...its just that we have laws of libel. the McCanns havent enjoyed any special treatment in what can and cannot be said about them.
Okay. My use of words is occasionally not all that good. But I can spot Libel.
However, I am beyond caring. None of this will ever indict The McCanns.
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Okay. My use of words is occasionally not all that good. But I can spot Libel.
However, I am beyond caring. None of this will ever indict The McCanns.
In fact, bogger off. And don't some seriously damaged person tell me that they know better.
This Forum is loaded with sad people who only want the worst.
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What is it that so many of you want? Why are you doing this when there is no evidence against The Maccans.
Do you'll so desperately want The McCanns to be guilty? But why would that be? Are you all such disgusting parents yourselves?
I sometimes left my children alone for brief periods but then I have never denied that. My reasons for doing so are none of your business. Which is why I have never said for why. I don't need your sympathy.
But then off you all go.
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I could get very cross about this all. There has never been any evidence to suggest that The McCanns harmed their daughter. So where are we going with this?
Who are the people who want to make it so. And for why?
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I could get very cross about this all. There has never been any evidence to suggest that The McCanns harmed their daughter. So where are we going with this?
Who are the people who want to make it so. And for why?
you take this all too personally.
There are differences of opinion, but it's usually only supporters who seem to get angry and affronted with those who disagree.
IMO
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Once upon a time two parents went out to dinner just down the road a bit. I honestly don't know if I would have done that. But I might have done.
Actually no one ever invited me out to dinner while my husband was off somewhere else fighting for Queen and Country. But that is another story.
In hindsight this was a very bad idea. But I still don't know if I would have done it or even if it was a bad idea in the first place.
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Once upon a time two parents went out to dinner just down the road a bit. I honestly don't know if I would have done that. But I might have done.
Actually no one ever invited me out to dinner while my husband was off somewhere else fighting for Queen and Country. But that is another story.
In hindsight this was a very bad idea. But I still don't know if I would have done it or even if it was a bad idea in the first place.
People do dumb, stupid, careless even neglectful things all the time. Most of them don’t have their actions critiqued constantly for 14 plus years however. For some reason people simply love laying into rhe McCanns. It appears to give them great satisfaction and enjoyment as I’m sure Spam will confirm.
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you take this all too personally.
There are differences of opinion, but it's usually only supporters who seem to get angry and affronted with those who disagree.
IMO
There seems to be a mismatch. On the one hand pride in belonging to a forum which welcomes different opinions coupled with dismay at the content of opposing posts.
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There seems to be a mismatch. On the one hand pride in belonging to a forum which welcomes different opinions coupled with dismay at the content of opposing posts.
Are you dismayed at the content of posts with which you are in disagreement?
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There seems to be a mismatch. On the one hand pride in belonging to a forum which welcomes different opinions coupled with dismay at the content of opposing posts.
For the record, none of the posts on here by sceptics cause me dismay or anger. Some I find laughable, many I find poorly reasoned, one or two cause irritation (especially the ones with misplaced apostrophes) and occasionally just very occasionally one will give me pause for thought. No doubt you feel the same about supporters’ posts (apart from I doubt anything I have written has caused you anything but lip-curling contempt @)(++(* )
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For the record, none of the posts on here by sceptics cause me dismay or anger. Some I find laughable, many I find poorly reasoned, one or two cause irritation (especially the ones with misplaced apostrophes) and occasionally just very occasionally one will give me pause for thought. No doubt you feel the same about supporters’ posts (apart from I doubt anything I have written has caused you anything but lip-curling contempt @)(++(* )
I'm pleased to hear it. Getting upset about differing opinions is not a sensible reaction. Neither, fyi, does anything you have to say arouse my contempt.
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It may have escaped your notice, but there has been a concerted effort to prevent any discussion of the McCann case which didn't uphold the story they told. A wide range of people were threatened in various ways in an attempt to prevent certain facts and opinions being expressed. No stone was left unturned; from dossiers gathered about ordinary people to high profile libel actions against media outlets.
In my opinion those efforts ensured that people found ways of expressing their opinions nevertheless. Why? Perhaps because people suspected that the adage 'no smoke without fire' had some truth in it. The unremitting determination to silence questioners simply reinforced their conviction that speaking out was necessary imo.
The PJ may have made mistakes, and their efforts may have been hampered, but they still trod their own path. Imo attempts were made to persuade them, like Operation Grange, to investigate only abduction by a stranger, but they didn't comply.
It is true that the Amaral investigation was hampered by elements external to Portugal. I wonder will we ever find out why?
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It is true that the Amaral investigation was hampered by elements external to Portugal. I wonder will we ever find out why?
I think many of the allegations were down to Amaral's paranoia who saw spooks lurking in every airport or dark corner ~ don't forget in the very early days he tells us in his book of squandering resources by having a senior British police officer followed.
Amaral's claims have been denied and don't we know enough about him to take his claims with a pinch of salt.
THE Judicial Police did not feel any political pressure from the English authorities and even less of the Portuguese to act in this or that way. This pressure did not exist at all", said Pedro do Carmo, in an interview with Lusa agency, about the 10 years about the disappearance of the English child Madeleine McCann, in the Algarve.
https://www.noticiasaominuto.com/pais/784844/maddie-pj-nao-sentiu-qualquer-pressao-politica-de-autoridades-inglesas
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But words like arrogant and smugly are pertinent when given with No Evidence. Some last ditch to God knows what.
Sorry, my thoughts on subject aren't the same as yours. But no less pertinent. There has never been any evidence against The McCanns.
The dog alerts and subsequent human cellular material collected is evidence - just not proof! You know, like the open window in 5A is evidence (of abduction or staging) but not proof.
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The dog alerts and subsequent human cellular material collected is evidence - just not proof! You know, like the open window in 5A is evidence (of abduction or staging) but not proof.
Then the fact that Maddie is missing is evidence of abduction
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Then the fact that Maddie is missing is evidence of abduction
By, whom , how and when ? is the deal breaker, it ain't the german suspect.
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By, whom , how and when ? is the deal breaker, it ain't the german suspect.
You need to read my post in context
You seem to think you know more than those who have seen all the evidence.
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You need to read my post in context
You seem to think you know more than those who have seen all the evidence.
You seem to think you know more than a certain dog handler and a detective.
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By, whom , how and when ? is the deal breaker, it ain't the german suspect.
I'd have thought it was only evidence of possible abduction
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Then the fact that Maddie is missing is evidence of abduction
No it isn't. It's evidence that something happened to her.
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No it isn't. It's evidence that something happened to her.
Which includes abduction by a stranger, ergo it's evidence of abduction. If and when abduction is proved would you say her being missing was not evidence of abduction?
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Which includes abduction by a stranger, ergo it's evidence of abduction. If and when abduction is proved would you say her being missing was not evidence of abduction?
If she was abducted then yes it would be evidence of abduction.
But we're still missing the evidence of abduction bit.
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No it isn't. It's evidence that something happened to her.
You need to read my post in the context it was made then you might understand it. Note... My posts starts with... Then
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I'd have thought it was only evidence of possible abduction
I think that's a fair point
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Which includes abduction by a stranger, ergo it's evidence of abduction. If and when abduction is proved would you say her being missing was not evidence of abduction?
It will be interesting to see how abduction by a stranger can be proved.
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It will be interesting to see how abduction by a stranger can be proved.
If wolters has photo/video of abuse ...similar to the Rui Pedro case...then that would prove abduction beyond reasonable doubt...either from the apt or the street
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If wolters has photo/video of abuse ...similar to the Rui Pedro case...then that would prove abduction beyond reasonable doubt...either from the apt or the street
Nope it proves he has a image of such .(Not that he has)
Like I've said before, he came across the dead girl left by Smithy, prove he didn't mr Prosecutor. He's got nothing to tie his suspect, thats why he's not been questioned. He'll be questioned as a witness if anything imo.
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You seem to think you know more than a certain dog handler and a detective.
I agree with just about everything Grime and Harrison have said. they reall havent claimed any facts....just intelligence.
can you quote one handler ...detective...who see the alerts as reliable evidence of a death in the apartment
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Nope it proves he has a image of such .(Not that he has)
Like I've said before, he came across the dead girl left by Smithy, prove he didn't mr Prosecutor. He's got nothing to tie his suspect, thats why he's not been questioned. He'll be questioned as a witness if anything imo.
In the "evidence" wolters has Maddie is still alive...he has said asmuch. Do I have to spell it out again and again. it seems wolters has photo evidence of the abuse of a live Maddie. abuse she would not have survived so he assumes death..as in the Rui pedro case. That proves abduction
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In the "evidence" wolters has Maddie is still alive...he has said asmuch. Do I have to spell it out again and again. it seems wolters has photo evidence of the abuse of a live Maddie. abuse she would not have survived so he assumes death..as in the Rui pedro case. That proves abduction
That's quite an assumption.
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That's quite an assumption.
not if you listen to what Wolters hass said
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That's quite an assumption.
Fantasy land, lad, fantasy land.
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Fantasy land, lad, fantasy land.
would depend on the evidence he has....
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Nope it proves he has a image of such .(Not that he has)
Like I've said before, he came across the dead girl left by Smithy, prove he didn't mr Prosecutor. He's got nothing to tie his suspect, thats why he's not been questioned. He'll be questioned as a witness if anything imo.
That would be an excuse along the lines of "the dog ate my homework" and would be dismissed as laughable. IMO.
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That would be an excuse along the lines of "the dog ate my homework" and would be dismissed as laughable. IMO.
Wait and see. Smithy has never been identified has he ?
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Wait and see. Smithy has never been identified has he ?
I think it was Amaral.
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Wait and see. Smithy has never been identified has he ?
What difference does it make to the credibility of the excuse you have put up as a potential defence for Brueckner?
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In the "evidence" wolters has Maddie is still alive...he has said asmuch. Do I have to spell it out again and again. it seems wolters has photo evidence of the abuse of a live Maddie. abuse she would not have survived so he assumes death..as in the Rui pedro case. That proves abduction
Are you not contradicting yourself within this post?
You say first in the evidence Wolters has Madeleine is still. alive ?
So yes please spell it out again for me how "assumes " ( death) becomes concrete evidence ?
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Are you not contradicting yourself within this post?
You say first in the evidence Wolters has Madeleine is still. alive ?
So yes please spell it out again for me how "assumes " ( death) becomes concrete evidence ?
Ive spelt it out several times...Im not really happy spelling it out. From what Wolters has said he has photographic evidence of MM being abused.This is the conclusion raeched by quite afew people following the case. Wolters has made arounf 5 indications his concrete evidence is photographic. He has inferred it shows abuse of MM that is so severe she would not have survived. ....but he does not have absolute proof she didnt.
This may sound far fetched but is exactly what happened in the Rui pedro case...another child abducted in portugal
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Thankyou .
Why do you think OG , and let's include the PJ are not seemingly pursuing this with him and more to the point why are the McCanns not insisting on it?
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Thankyou .
Why do you think OG , and let's include the PJ are not seemingly pursuing this with him and more to the point why are the McCanns not insisting on it?
SY have said they are working very closely with the Germans
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SY have said they are working very closely with the Germans
To justify being granted further funding I expect .
Cressida Dick included the PJ in that announcement .
My own opinion is Wolters might very well say he has some photos of a female child being abused in such a manner that she cannot possibly have survived .... truly horrendous for any parent to be told that .... so I'm not 100% believing him .... bluffing to impress the media more like.
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To justify being granted further funding I expect .
Cressida Dick included the PJ in that announcement .
My own opinion is Wolters might very well say he has some photos of a female child being abused in such a manner that she cannot possibly have survived .... truly horrendous for any parent to be told that .... so I'm not 100% believing him .... bluffing to impress the media more like.
I think your ideas are ridiculous.. It's not just Wolters.. He's the spokesman for the entire investigation team.
I don't see any reason to disbelieve him
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I think your ideas are ridiculous.. It's not just Wolters.. He's the spokesman for the entire investigation team.
I don't see any reason to disbelieve him
It could be argued Mitchell is the spokesman for the entire McCann story, should everything from him be believed.
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Ive spelt it out several times...Im not really happy spelling it out. From what Wolters has said he has photographic evidence of MM being abused.This is the conclusion raeched by quite afew people following the case. Wolters has made arounf 5 indications his concrete evidence is photographic. He has inferred it shows abuse of MM that is so severe she would not have survived. ....but he does not have absolute proof she didnt.
This may sound far fetched but is exactly what happened in the Rui pedro case...another child abducted in portugal
I've yet to see this supposed hint of abuse, perhaps it only exists where its wanted to exist, ergo abduction.
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It could be argued Mitchell is the spokesman for the entire McCann story, should everything from him be believed.
If you want to believe wolters is a fantast and making it all up to impress the press... If you want to believe SY have spent 12 million to protect the McCanns... Both sound totally barmy to me
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If you want to believe wolters is a fantast and making it all up to impress the press... If you want to believe SY have spent 12 million to protect the McCanns... Both sound totally barmy to me
Where have I ever said that OG is to protect the McCann's.
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Where have I ever said that OG is to protect the McCann's.
What is it for then?
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What is it for then?
You tell me, seems as if you and davel share the same opinion.
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You tell me, seems as if you and davel share the same opinion.
It seems to me you don't think it has been set up to investigate the disappearance of Madeleine McCann (which is my opinion) but nor will you admit to thinking that it's been set up to protect the McCanns. So are you saying you just don't know what Operation Grange is for or won't accept that it has been set up in good faith to investigate the child's disappearance?
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Where have I ever said that OG is to protect the McCann's.
It's what most sceptics believe... That the mccanns are being protected by SY
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It seems to me you don't think it has been set up to investigate the disappearance of Madeleine McCann (which is my opinion) but nor will you admit to thinking that it's been set up to protect the McCanns. So are you saying you just don't know what Operation Grange is for or won't accept that it has been set up in good faith to investigate the child's disappearance?
Do you deny it was set up to investigate Madeleine's abduction?
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I think your ideas are ridiculous.. It's not just Wolters.. He's the spokesman for the entire investigation team.
I don't see any reason to disbelieve him
Wolters and the rest yes, who probably want to keep him in jail for as long as possible and rightly so for for the hideous crimes he's been found guilty of but not for something he maybe hasn't done.
A stroke of luck they pounced on, i.e that his phone was in that area must have been such a revelation for them yet they still cant prove he was using it . Why not ?
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Do you deny it was set up to investigate Madeleine's abduction?
It eas set up to investigate Madeleines abduction after thr scoping exercise showed this was the most likely scenario.. In investigating the abduction it could have discovered an abduction didn't happen.... That doesn't seem to have happened
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Wolters and the rest yes, who probably want to keep him in jail for as long as possible and rightly so for for the hideous crimes he's been found guilty of but not for something he maybe hasn't done.
A stroke of luck they pounced on, i.e that his phone was in that area must have been such a revelation for them yet they still cant prove he was using it . Why not ?
They will have a lot more evidence than that... But you think he's lying so not much point in discussing it
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It seems to me you don't think it has been set up to investigate the disappearance of Madeleine McCann (which is my opinion) but nor will you admit to thinking that it's been set up to protect the McCanns. So are you saying you just don't know what Operation Grange is for or won't accept that it has been set up in good faith to investigate the child's disappearance?
You're gonna have to show me where I've said Grange is set up to protect the Mccann's.
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They will have a lot more evidence than that... But you think he's lying so not much point in discussing it
Have I actually said he was lying? Rather I thought I said he was bluffing but correct me if not .
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It eas set up to investigate Madeleines abduction after thr scoping exercise showed this was the most likely scenario.. In investigating the abduction it could have discovered an abduction didn't happen.... That doesn't seem to have happened
It could be argued the BKA set up an investigation to focus solely on bringing CB to justice over Madeleines disappearance, thats doesn't seemed to have happened either. The one who shall be believed said it wouldn't last more than a couple of Months in July 2020, (I've posted the link where he said it ,before), should he now be disbelieved.
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Have I actually said he was lying? Rather I thought I said he was bluffing but correct me if not .
I will correct you. You accused him of saying something which he knows is not true... That's lying
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It could be argued the BKA set up an investigation to focus solely on bringing CB to justice over Madeleines disappearance, thats doesn't seemed to have happened either. The one who shall be believed said it wouldn't last more than a couple of Months in July 2020, (I've posted the link where he said it ,before), should he now be disbelieved.
Perhaps things have changed... You can disbelieve if you want... I think that's very premature
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Perhaps things have changed... You can disbelieve if you want... I think that's very premature
Then he shouldn't say what he can't deliver.
In red, I said should he disbelieved , not that I do, its best to read what's written .
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Do you deny it was set up to investigate Madeleine's abduction?
No, why do you ask?
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You're gonna have to show me where I've said Grange is set up to protect the Mccann's.
I didn’t say you did, I’m simply asking you what you think it was set up for and why.
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It seems to me you don't think it has been set up to investigate the disappearance of Madeleine McCann (which is my opinion) but nor will you admit to thinking that it's been set up to protect the McCanns.
You're gonna have to show me where I've said Grange is set up to protect the Mccann's.
I didn’t say you did, I’m simply asking you what you think it was set up for and why.
Say again
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Say again
What’s your problem?
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What’s your problem?
You answering my post's.
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You answering my post's.
No, your problem is not knowing when to use an apostrophe properly.
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Then he shouldn't say what he can't deliver.
In red, I said should he disbelieved , not that I do, its best to read what's written .
If you are reccomending he should not be believed you are totally mixed up if you don't believe your own opinion
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I will correct you. You accused him of saying something which he knows is not true... That's lying
Thanks . My bad .
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No, why do you ask?
Because I think that was it's purpose all along. That's what it's remit was.
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Because I think that was it's purpose all along. That's what it's remit was.
So what?
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It could be argued Mitchell is the spokesman for the entire McCann story, should everything from him be believed.
I think that is quite absurd.
Amaral's perjury conviction proves he is untrustworthy yet it was the botched investigation he led and the book he wrote detailing it which put the flawed narrative in place.
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Wolters and the rest yes, who probably want to keep him in jail for as long as possible and rightly so for for the hideous crimes he's been found guilty of but not for something he maybe hasn't done.
A stroke of luck they pounced on, i.e that his phone was in that area must have been such a revelation for them yet they still cant prove he was using it . Why not ?
I think you really should be asking why the Policia Judiciaria did not use the phone evidence which was available to them in 2007.
You really do not know what evidence the German investigation holds for the simple reason that they aren't telling you and rightly so - Madeleine's is a case which is under active investigation.
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It eas set up to investigate Madeleines abduction after thr scoping exercise showed this was the most likely scenario.. In investigating the abduction it could have discovered an abduction didn't happen.... That doesn't seem to have happened
There was no action in response to Gamble's report. It was the intervention of Rebecah Brooks which triggered the setting up of Operation Grange.
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There was no action in response to Gamble's report. It was the intervention of Rebecah Brooks which triggered the setting up of Operation Grange.
There was a scoping exercise before the remit was written.
All the evidence from the first investigation could be looked at.
If you want to think SY did not look at the evidence against the family.. That's up to you. I think it's a barmy idea
You should be more concerned thst the initial investigation did not investigate CB
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There was a scoping exercise before the remit was written.
All the evidence from the first investigation could be looked at.
If you want to think SY did not look at the evidence against the family.. That's up to you. I think it's a barmy idea
You should be more concerned thst the initial investigation did not investigate CB
It's unthinkable that an inquiry was set up without a full and free investigation into the evidence previously collected, but there is reason to believe it happened.
I can think of no reason why the initial investigation should have investigated CB. His so-called friends saw no reason to inform on him at the time.
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It's unthinkable that an inquiry was set up without a full and free investigation into the evidence previously collected, but there is reason to believe it happened.
I can think of no reason why the initial investigation should have investigated CB. His so-called friends saw no reason to inform on him at the time.
Sy stated they looked at all the evidence against the mccanns. I dint see there has been any restriction on SY it's just there's no evidence against the mccanns. It's a Portuguese investigation.. Are the Portuguese restricted.. No.
In a recent interview amaral said the y knocked on CBs door but he wasn't in.. so they did have reason but failed to investigate him
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It's unthinkable that an inquiry was set up without a full and free investigation into the evidence previously collected, but there is reason to believe it happened.
I can think of no reason why the initial investigation should have investigated CB. His so-called friends saw no reason to inform on him at the time.
You should think again..
In the «Bild» interview, Amaral followed twice. Brückner’s name was on a list of well-known pedophiles in the region around Praia de Luz shortly after Maddie disappeared. “There was a knock on his door, but he wasn’t home,” he explains. Amaral does not believe that the German broke into the McCanns’ vacation home
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*&^^&
I think you really should be asking why the Policia Judiciaria did not use the phone evidence which was available to them in 2007.
You really do not know what evidence the German investigation holds for the simple reason that they aren't telling you and rightly so - Madeleine's is a case which is under active investigation.
I' m not asking that which you advise I should because although evidence shows the phone was used , not by whom .
Lots of instances I see a phone being used , e.g. " can I borrow your phone for a minute I've left mine in the car ? " when it's not the owner using it
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*&^^&I' m not asking that which you advise I should because although evidence shows the phone was used , not by whom .
Lots of instances I see a phone being used , e.g. " can I borrow your phone for a minute I've left mine in the car ? " when it's not the owner using it
You are absolutely right... Simple explanation.. CB could stop all this speculation and clear his name in an instant..... But he's not doing that is he
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You are absolutely right... Simple explanation.. CB could stop all this speculation and clear his name in an instant..... But he's not doing that is he
Perhaps Wolters hasn't instigated questioning him on that point yet ?
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Perhaps Wolters hasn't instigated questioning him on that point yet ?
Apparently not.
Why answer questions that haven't been asked. Healy didn't answer questions, even when asked. 8(0(*
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Perhaps Wolters hasn't instigated questioning him on that point yet ?
Hes already said he won't answer any questions... So not much point at the moment
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Hes already said he won't answer any questions... So not much point at the moment
The press said he said.
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*&^^&I' m not asking that which you advise I should because although evidence shows the phone was used , not by whom .
Lots of instances I see a phone being used , e.g. " can I borrow your phone for a minute I've left mine in the car ? " when it's not the owner using it
If someone asked to borrow his phone to make a 30 minute phonecall from the vicinity of the OC then it's unlikely they went to visit CB at his home to ask him and then drove into town to make the call. He would have been nearby also. IMO.
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*&^^&I' m not asking that which you advise I should because although evidence shows the phone was used , not by whom .
Lots of instances I see a phone being used , e.g. " can I borrow your phone for a minute I've left mine in the car ? " when it's not the owner using it
I don't think that argument stands up, as the phone in question received the 30 minute call.
However, I suppose that the phone could have been previously stolen.
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I have been wondering if there was any point in me commenting. But obviously not.
In so far as I am concerned then the McCann [ censored word ]s can have it. It proves nothing.
I don't know about The Paedohile, Rapist, but I suspect that there is much more to this than first appears. He could well have been open to blackmail from certain persons.
I know who did this. They just thought that it would never see the light of day.
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If someone asked to borrow his phone to make a 30 minute phonecall from the vicinity of the OC then it's unlikely they went to visit CB at his home to ask him and then drove into town to make the call. He would have been nearby also. IMO.
Not impossible though? Lending a phone isn't an offence ?
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Not impossible though? Lending a phone isn't an offence ?
The Loch Ness Monster isn't impossible, however it's also not very likely. Same with what you're suggesting IMO. It's implausible and illogical. IMO.
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The press said he said.
I think his lawyer said
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The Loch Ness Monster isn't impossible, however it's also not very likely. Same with what you're suggesting IMO. It's implausible and illogical. IMO.
No problem with you having your opinion if you allow me to have mine however implausible you find it . 😊
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Oes anyone know how long phone records were kept for back in 2007 ?
google gives a variety of answers
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No problem with you having your opinion if you allow me to have mine however implausible you find it . 😊
I’m not standing in your way of having an opinion.
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Oes anyone know how long phone records were kept for back in 2007 ?
google gives a variety of answers
Long enough for them to be of use to the Germans in this case it would seem.
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Long enough for them to be of use to the Germans in this case it would seem.
Yet we're led to believe OG forensically examined all the evidence , but never made a link, or there isn't one.
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Presumably these are from records collected on a specific date in 2007, so they can't go back and see other calls that were made by the phones prior to this, or perhaps even since. IE they collected only calls made from PDL area on the 3rd May.
Would that be right ?
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Not impossible though? Lending a phone isn't an offence ?
No. The phone wasn't borrowed. The call was made by someone else. Who answered the phone is the question.
Have none of you actually got this yet. How stupid are you?
We don't know who made The Call or even who answered it, but it is hardly rocket science.
You can all dream up whatever you like but Breuckner answered that phone call. So he was where they thought he was.
But what that has got to do with anything is neither here nor there. It proves nothing.
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No. The phone wasn't borrowed. The call was made by someone else. Who answered the phone is the question.
Have none of you actually got this yet. How stupid are you?
We don't know who made The Call or even who answered it, but it is hardly rocket science.
You can all dream up whatever you like but Breuckner answered that phone call. So he was where they thought he was.
But what that has got to do with anything is neither here nor there. It proves nothing.
Nope, CB might not have answered, even if he did, could have been a date, all manner of things, like you say it proves nowt.
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I wonder if that was the only activity on his phone that night? Not that it really matters, but it might help to identify where it was at say 10.30 that evening.
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Presumably these are from records collected on a specific date in 2007, so they can't go back and see other calls that were made by the phones prior to this, or perhaps even since. IE they collected only calls made from PDL area on the 3rd May.
Would that be right ?
Just three days of records were collected, from the masts covering a certain location;
The telephone operators TMN, Vodaphone and Optimus be asked for the preservation and conservation in digital format (CD or DVD) of all the information relating to MOBILE PHONE TRAFFIC, including roaming calls, with an indication of the mobile phone numbers, date and time of the telephone conversations that took place on 2, 3 and 4th May 2007 with respect to the mobile phones that cover the following geographical locations:
Apartment:
N - 37,088863 // N37º 5' 19,91"
W - 8,730775...// W 8º 43' 50,79"
Tapas Restaurant
N - 37,088378 // N37º 5' 18,16"
W - 8,730979...// W 8º 43' 51,52"
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MOBILE_PHONE_ANALYSIS.htm
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Yet we're led to believe OG forensically examined all the evidence , but never made a link, or there isn't one.
Why would Operation Grange have known about Brückner or his phone number when they were assessing the phone data?
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How was this phoned identified as belonging to Brueckner ?
Was he foolish enough to use a phone registered in his name ?
Whatever, the release of the two numbers doesn't seem to have achieved anything, other than media publicity about Brueckner, which perhaps was really the purpose.
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Ah well you see, no one knew of this in those days. No one knew that they could be pin pointed.
But Breckner's phone was there in Praia da Luz. You may make what you like of that.
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Ah well you see, no one knew of this in those days. No one knew that they could be pin pointed.
But Breckner's phone was there in Praia da Luz. You may make what you like of that.
And Luz consists of one street where 5a was ? yeah right, they can't pinpoint it today unless following, it pings in a general area.
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Just as matter of interest. I don't care. I know that The McCanns had nothing to do with the disappearence of their daughter.
In fact I have long been looking at some members of The PJ. And I doubt that I am alone. Something quite dreadful went on there. Cristovao and Amaral were up to no good.
Do me a favour. Sue me.
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Just as matter of interest. I don't care. I know that The McCanns had nothing to do with the disappearence of their daughter.
In fact I have long been looking at some members of The PJ. And I doubt that I am alone. Something quite dreadful went on there. Cristovao and Amaral were up to no good.
Do me a favour. Sue me.
Of course CB was in on it.
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Of course CB was in on it.
Goodness me, do you actually think so? And do you think he was alone?
But someone has to be brave enough to say so on this now misbegotten Forum. I have been watching this Forum dying before my eyes.
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The telephone call is a piece of circumstantial evidence and on it's own means next to nothing.
It's when it's combined with other evidence it could be important
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I believe that Cristovao and Amaral had something much to do with this. And I always have.
I haven't talked about this because it is all a bit too much. But if you look at these two then it is all there to see.
However, whether or not I am allowed to say this is another matter all together. But I can't say that I actually care.
I expect that John will decide.
O'Connor says, Don't f..k with my Mummy.
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I believe that Cristovao and Amaral had something much to do with this. And I always have.
I haven't talked about this because it is all a bit too much. But if you look at these two then it is all there to see.
However, whether or not I am allowed to say this is another matter all together. But I can't say that I actually care.
I expect that John will decide.
O'Connor says, Don't f..k with my Mummy.
Go for it, there are some on here who seem to think that Wolters has evidence of abuse of Madeleine which is likely to have led to her death without a slice of evidence.
Ive spelt it out several times...Im not really happy spelling it out. From what Wolters has said he has photographic evidence of MM being abused.This is the conclusion raeched by quite afew people following the case. Wolters has made arounf 5 indications his concrete evidence is photographic. He has inferred it shows abuse of MM that is so severe she would not have survived. ....but he does not have absolute proof she didnt.
This may sound far fetched but is exactly what happened in the Rui pedro case...another child abducted in portugal
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Go for it, there are some on here who seem to think that Wolters has evidence of abuse of Madeleine which is likely to have led to her death without a slice of evidence.
There is evidence for photographic evidence and evidence for what it describes. I've posted it several times
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There is evidence for photographic evidence and evidence for what it describes. I've posted it several times
Marvin Gaye made a bit of money about hearing it through a grapevine.
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Marvin Gaye made a bit of money about hearing it through a grapevine.
No.. Directly from Wolters
You said no evidence to support my claims... You are clearly wrong
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There is evidence for photographic evidence and evidence for what it describes. I've posted it several times
I think you've just convinced yourself. There's no such evidence at all.
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I think you've just convinced yourself. There's no such evidence at all.
Wolters himself refused to rule out that he has video or photographic evidence, so that’s evidence he may have such evidence.
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“He (Wolters) also admitted they did still have other key information in the Maddie investigation - ‘maybe video, maybe phone evidence’ - that hadn’t been released to the public, and it was not the time to confirm exactly what. ‘There are quite a lot of things I am still unable to tell you,’ he said.”
From Jon Clarke’s book.
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I think you've just convinced yourself. There's no such evidence at all.
What rubbish..... So you don't see Wolters himself saying that the evidence may be photographic as evidence
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Wolters himself refused to rule out that he has video or photographic evidence, so that’s evidence he may have such evidence.
Yes, when asked he said he could neither confirm nor deny the existence of photographic evidence.
So obviously, that means he definitely has photographic evidence of Maddie being murdered by Brueckner.
"In a search of the deserted factory owned by Brückner, police found disturbing digital material including thousands of videos and pictures reportedly of his alleged crimes.
Cryptically, prosecutor Wolters would neither confirm or deny if any of these videos contained evidence of Madeleine McCann.
"At the moment, I'm not allowed to comment on that. So I'm not able to say if there are pictures or if there are no pictures of Madeleine,"
https://9now.nine.com.au/60-minutes/german-prosecutors-believe-madeleine-mccann-is-dead-60-minutes/c12305de-2465-4751-98ae-e0ba468d8fa3
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What rubbish..... So you don't see Wolters himself saying that the evidence may be photographic as evidence
Not sure why he needs to be so coy with his 'maybes'.
He either has photographic evidence, or he doesn't. He wouldn't be giving any secrets away by being more definite.
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Yes, when asked he said he could neither confirm nor deny the existence of photographic evidence.
So obviously, that means he definitely has photographic evidence of Maddie being murdered by Brueckner.
"In a search of the deserted factory owned by Brückner, police found disturbing digital material including thousands of videos and pictures reportedly of his alleged crimes.
Cryptically, prosecutor Wolters would neither confirm or deny if any of these videos contained evidence of Madeleine McCann.
"At the moment, I'm not allowed to comment on that. So I'm not able to say if there are pictures or if there are no pictures of Madeleine,"
https://9now.nine.com.au/60-minutes/german-prosecutors-believe-madeleine-mccann-is-dead-60-minutes/c12305de-2465-4751-98ae-e0ba468d8fa3
So that's a No then ?{)(**
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So that's a No then ?{)(**
He's not allowed to comment.
So that means a definite yes.
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He's not allowed to comment.
So that means a definite yes.
Yes he can't comment, or no he can't comment.
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How was this phoned identified as belonging to Brueckner ?
Was he foolish enough to use a phone registered in his name ?
Whatever, the release of the two numbers doesn't seem to have achieved anything, other than media publicity about Brueckner, which perhaps was really the purpose.
According to Wolters, they had 'other information' that CB had used that number. (Jon Clarke page 407). No doubt from his 'friends'.
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According to Wolters, they had 'other information' that CB had used that number. (Jon Clarke page 407). No doubt from his 'friends'.
Is Wolter releasing information pertaining to a live investigation secure in the knowledge it'll never see the light of day in a court room.
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It does seem strange to be that he's not allowed to comment on the possible existence of evidence but is allowed to say the suspect is definitely guilty.
Is this the standard procedure within the German justice system?
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It does seem strange to be that he's not allowed to comment on the possible existence of evidence but is allowed to say the suspect is definitely guilty.
Is this the standard procedure within the German justice system?
After forensically examining the phone records and after doing some landscaping, OG interviewed the three amigo's reportedly asking if they killed Madeleine yet at no time during this was any suspicion cast toward CB, are OG inept as well.
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It does seem strange to be that he's not allowed to comment on the possible existence of evidence but is allowed to say the suspect is definitely guilty.
Is this the standard procedure within the German justice system?
Teutonic thoroughness, no doubt.
Declaration of guilt first, procurement of evidence second.
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Yes, when asked he said he could neither confirm nor deny the existence of photographic evidence.
So obviously, that means he definitely has photographic evidence of Maddie being murdered by Brueckner.
"In a search of the deserted factory owned by Brückner, police found disturbing digital material including thousands of videos and pictures reportedly of his alleged crimes.
Cryptically, prosecutor Wolters would neither confirm or deny if any of these videos contained evidence of Madeleine McCann.
"At the moment, I'm not allowed to comment on that. So I'm not able to say if there are pictures or if there are no pictures of Madeleine,"
https://9now.nine.com.au/60-minutes/german-prosecutors-believe-madeleine-mccann-is-dead-60-minutes/c12305de-2465-4751-98ae-e0ba468d8fa3
You're being facetious again (what's new?) No one has claimed he DEFINITELY has these pictures, only that there is evidence that he may, by his own words - he hasn't ruled it out, therefore it remains a possibility. Personally I doubt he has photos of Madeleine taken after 3rd May, but that's just my opinion.
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I think you've just convinced yourself. There's no such evidence at all.
I think your distrust in the German claim to have evidence is quite extraordinary.
A new Spiegel TV documentary claimed girls' swimming costumes, children's clothes and 8,000 child abuse images were found by police. Brueckner does not have any children.
The swimwear and clothes were found in the red and white Tiffin Allegro Bay motorhome Brueckner bought in Germany in 2010, three years after Maddie's disappearance.
Computer memory sticks contained more than 8,000 files, mostly pictures and videos of child abuse, the documentary claimed.
It alleged some of the victims in the images were infants and about 100 of the files were photos of Brueckner partly naked or wearing black stockings and committing a sex act.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/house-horrors-maddie-suspects-friend-22219039
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These are only claims by a TV company. We don't know how accurate they may be.
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These are only claims by a TV company. We don't know how accurate they may be.
How did Brueckner have private access to these girls?
There hasn't been a spate of child abductions that can account for them all & no reports of families leaving their children in the care of Brueckner.
And if you actually read the article...
"It is alleged some of the victims in the images were infants"
(So he probably had downloaded images of child porn he himself didn't make)
"....and about 100 of the files were photos of Brueckner partly naked or wearing black stockings and committing a sex act."
So in the photos he was committing a sex act, note it doesn't say anything about being against a child.
No, I'm sorry, until I get to view these images personally & privately I will continue to have doubts.
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How did Brueckner have private access to these girls?
There hasn't been a spate of child abductions that can account for them all & no reports of families leaving their children in the care of Brueckner.
And if you actually read the article...
"It is alleged some of the victims in the images were infants"
(So he probably had downloaded images of child porn he himself didn't make)
"....and about 100 of the files were photos of Brueckner partly naked or wearing black stockings and committing a sex act."
So in the photos he was committing a sex act, note it doesn't say anything about being against a child.
No, I'm sorry, until I get to view these images personally & privately I will continue to have doubts.
@)(++(*
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You'll note that none of these allegations have been presented to a court, the legend has been writ alright.
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These media people, journalists, documentary makers, budding authors are able to spin the stories how they like - there's no one to refute it, unless there's McCann libel involved, of course.
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You'll note that none of these allegations have been presented to a court, the legend has been writ alright.
The legend was writ and published back in 2008 and not a single one of the allegations which polluted its pages was presented to a court or ever could be for the simple reason there was no evidence to support them.
Work is still continuing on the evidence there is in police files on Brueckner by personnel who don't seem to have a single criminal conviction to their names.
The sympathy constantly expressed in the sceptic community here and elsewhere for criminals has indeed become quite legendary .
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The legend was writ and published back in 2008 and not a single one of the allegations which polluted its pages was presented to a court or ever could be for the simple reason there was no evidence to support them.
Work is still continuing on the evidence there is in police files on Brueckner by personnel who don't seem to have a single criminal conviction to their names.
The sympathy constantly expressed in the sceptic community here and elsewhere for criminals has indeed become quite legendary .
Why are you bringing Amaral into this?
It's not his fault Wolters doesn't have any images of Brueckner abusing children.
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These are only claims by a TV company. We don't know how accurate they may be.
Wolters:
‘You can only speculate about what he did with them, although it is of course of note that an adult man has so many [children’s] swimming costumes, but we don’t know what they are supposed to be used for or how he used them,’ he said.
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How did Brueckner have private access to these girls?
There hasn't been a spate of child abductions that can account for them all & no reports of families leaving their children in the care of Brueckner.
And if you actually read the article...
"It is alleged some of the victims in the images were infants"
(So he probably had downloaded images of child porn he himself didn't make)
"....and about 100 of the files were photos of Brueckner partly naked or wearing black stockings and committing a sex act."
So in the photos he was committing a sex act, note it doesn't say anything about being against a child.
No, I'm sorry, until I get to view these images personally & privately I will continue to have doubts.
Doubts that he’s a paedophile and child abuser? Why?
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If it's a crime to view child pornography then the police are committing a crime when they view the images when investigating imo.
After the initial offender has been convicted for viewing child porn I think the investigating officers should then be arrested & charged, & then the officers who arrested them & so on & so on.
Yes, that's now policy number 6 in my forthcoming manifesto.
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Doubts that he’s a paedophile and child abuser? Why?
Doubts that Wolters has images of Brueckner abusing children.
Certainly, the quoted article suggests as much.
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These media people, journalists, documentary makers, budding authors are able to spin the stories how they like - there's no one to refute it, unless there's McCann libel involved, of course.
CB could refute it......Like me Wolters finds it significant he is not
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Doubts that Wolters has images of Brueckner abusing children.
Certainly, the quoted article suggests as much.
Why wouldn’t he? He had acess to children and used to babysit his girlfriend’s daughter.
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Why wouldn’t he? He had acess to children and used to babysit his girlfriend’s daughter.
I had access to Tesco yesterday, doesn't mean I took any photographs of it.
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I had access to Tesco yesterday, doesn't mean I took any photographs of it.
Have you got a sexual compulsion for Tesco?
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CB could refute it......Like me Wolters finds it significant he is not
How does he refute some thing not put to him ?
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Have you got a sexual compulsion for Tesco?
No, I have a sexual attraction to people who have a sexual attraction to children.
I'm a peadophilephile.
It's my new sexuality I've just invented & is now part of the rainbow.
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No, I have a sexual attraction to people who have a sexual attraction to children.
I'm a peadophilephile.
It's my new sexuality I've just invented & is now part of the rainbow.
Lovely.
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No, I have a sexual attraction to people who have a sexual attraction to children.
I'm a peadophilephile.
It's my new sexuality I've just invented & is now part of the rainbow.
Part of the rich tapestry of gender fluidity. ?{)(**
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Part of the rich tapestry of gender fluidity. ?{)(**
being a paedophile or even a lover of paedophiles has nothing to do with gender fluidity.
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Lovely.
I thought you might approve, as most people should, because there's a chance I'll go around abducting,abusing & murdering child abusers.
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How does he refute some thing not put to him ?
Equally, why should he ? What benefit does he gain by doing so ?
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being a paedophile or even a lover of paedophiles has nothing to do with gender fluidity.
There are arguments that paedophilia is a sexual orientation, although it's still classed as a mental illness.
But so were gender dysphoria & homosexuality until recently.
Obviously though, even if paedophilia is a natural sexual orientation (it is observed in some animal species), it will never be a socially acceptable one, in western societies anyway.
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I thought you might approve, as most people should, because there's a chance I'll go around abducting,abusing & murdering child abusers.
You’re just being a silly sausage though now aren’t you?
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There are arguments that paedophilia is a sexual orientation, although it's still classed as a mental illness.
But so were gender dysphoria & homosexuality until recently.
Obviously though, even if paedophilia is a natural sexual orientation (it is observed in some animal species), it will never be a socially acceptable one, in western societies anyway.
gender fluidity is about having no fixed gender and not about whose pants you want to gain access to. Active paedophiles cause damage to children (who cannot legally consent anyway) through their actions therefore they will never be considered legal or acceptable imo.
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Equally, why should he ? What benefit does he gain by doing so ?
The only way he'll know of this is either through his lawyer, who would advise silence or the rag's, Bild is equivalent to the Sun , so you take any thing in that with some decent rock salt.
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gender fluidity is about having no fixed gender and not about whose pants you want to gain access to. Active paedophiles cause damage to children (who cannot legally consent anyway) through their actions therefore they will never be considered legal or acceptable imo.
Yes, gender fluidity has nothing to do with orientation, that's why I'm in favour of the LGB community & exclude the T's & all the rest. I'm more a TERF.
A child can apparently make a mature decision & consent to taking gender bending hormones before they reach the age of sixteen, even against their parents wishes, & that's fine, but they can't legally choose to screw an older person.
Make it make sense.
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Yes, gender fluidity has nothing to do with orientation, that's why I'm in favour of the LGB community & exclude the T's & all the rest. I'm more a TERF.
A child can apparently make a mature decision & consent to taking gender bending hormones before they reach the age of sixteen, even against their parents wishes, & that's fine, but they can't legally choose to screw an older person.
Make it make sense.
I can’t. I’m a TERF too.
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I can’t. I’m a TERF too.
Glad to hear it.
Only women have a cervix.
Kier Starmer doesn't think so.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19605774.labour-leader-sir-keir-starmer-not-right-say-women-cervix/
If he didn't even bother paying attention in biology class then I'm not voting for him.
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Yes, gender fluidity has nothing to do with orientation, that's why I'm in favour of the LGB community & exclude the T's & all the rest. I'm more a TERF.
A child can apparently make a mature decision & consent to taking gender bending hormones before they reach the age of sixteen, even against their parents wishes, & that's fine, but they can't legally choose to screw an older person.
Make it make sense.
What about someone of the same age ?
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What about someone of the same age ?
It is a criminal offence for anyone to be involved in any sexual act (sexual intercourse, sexual touching, kissing etc) with anyone under the age of 13 whether the young person agrees or not, on the basis that anyone under 13 lacks the capacity to give valid consent to any sexual act.
It is a criminal offence for anyone who is 16 or older to have any kind of sexual contact with someone aged 13, 14 or 15. It is also a criminal offence for both girls and boys aged 13, 14 and 15 to have consensual sex with anyone else aged 13, 14 or 15. This applies whether they are the initiating partner or the consenting partner. This criminal offence where both are aged 13, 14 or 15 applies solely to penetration of the mouth, vagina or anus with the penis and to touching of the penis vagina or anus with the mouth. People in this age group participating in other consensual sexual acts are not committing criminal offences.
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A 15 year old can't do stuff with their just 17 partner.
But they can swap sexes, but not smoke or drive.
The whole consenting to things issue is a bit messy imo.
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How does he refute some thing not put to him ?
We won't agree but he could make a statement through his lawyer saying why he isn't guilty... An alibi.. He hasn't because imo most likely he hasn't got one
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At this stage he doesn't need an alibi, so why provide one ?
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We won't agree but he could make a statement through his lawyer saying why he isn't guilty... An alibi.. He hasn't because imo most likely he hasn't got one
Equally Wolters could arrest and question him , he can't and won't because of lack of or no evidence, therefore CB has nothing to declare his innocence about.
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We won't agree but he could make a statement through his lawyer saying why he isn't guilty... An alibi.. He hasn't because imo most likely he hasn't got one
Maybe because he can't remember exactly what he was doing one Thursday night 14 years ago.
Is that supposed to seem unreasonable?
I haven't the faintest idea what I did on may 3rd, & although I remember seeing the news on the 4th, I still couldn't tell you what I did for the rest of the day that day either.
Maybe I was abducting Maddie & it's just slipped my mind.
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At this stage he doesn't need an alibi, so why provide one ?
It would be an easy get out for Wolters, his investigation work would be done for him .
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It would be an easy get out for Wolters, his investigation work would be done for him .
I don't suppose Brueckner has any love for prosecutors so why would he want to assist them in any way ?
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Could everyone please give me a complete picture of their movements on May 3rd 2007?
I need to know where you went & who you spoke to both on the phone or in person & at what times.
I then need the people you spoke to confirm the time & place of your interactions.
I don't think that's too much to ask, unless you have something to hide.
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Could everyone please give me a complete picture of their movements on May 3rd 2007?
I need to know where you went & who you spoke to both on the phone or in person & at what times.
I then need the people you spoke to confirm the time & place of your interactions.
I don't think that's too much to ask, unless you have something to hide.
After 14 years? - no problem , ought to be a piece of cake.
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Could everyone please give me a complete picture of their movements on May 3rd 2007?
I need to know where you went & who you spoke to both on the phone or in person & at what times.
I then need the people you spoke to confirm the time & place of your interactions.
I don't think that's too much to ask, unless you have something to hide.
I know exactly where I was and who I was with on the evening of the 4th May 2007 if that helps?
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none of your recall proves anything at all but Im not surprised you cant see that. Im sure all those who lived in Luz that night knew exactly what they were doing....it seems CBs girlfriend did.
I lived in birmingham in 1974....I know exactly where I was on the 21st of Nov...nearly 47 years ago
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none of your recall proves anything at all but Im not surprised you cant see that. Im sure all those who lived in Luz that night knew exactly what they were doing....it seems CBs girlfriend did.
I lived in birmingham in 1974....I know exactly where I was on the 21st of Nov...nearly 47 years ago
And I remember pretty much every moment of my day from about 1pm onwards on 11th September 2001.
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If the date has some significance to you personally or you keep a diary you might well remember.
But I don't see why Brueckner should be expected to remember just because he lived in the same town along with over 3000 other people.
There's a reasonably famous murder case near my locale, it was widely reported, still no idea what I was doing when it happened, & don't see why I should remember any better just because I live in the same area along with about 80,000 other people.
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If the date has some significance to you personally or you keep a diary you might well remember.
But I don't see why Brueckner should be expected to remember just because he lived in the same town along with over 3000 other people.
There's a reasonably famous murder case near my locale, it was widely reported, still no idea what I was doing when it happened, & don't see why I should remember any better just because I live in the same area along with about 80,000 other people.
Was it a murder that threw your town into the media spotlight worldwide within hours of it occurring?
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Was it a murder that threw your town into the media spotlight worldwide within hours of it occurring?
It was on the national news quite heavily because the victim was a child.
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If the prosecution has a witness...his ex.....who testifies she was with him constantly up until May 3rd.....then he disappeared of the face of the earth for a week...then it would be a good idea for him to be able to account for where he was
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I certainly don't remember where I was when Kennedy was assassinated, nor when Churchill died.
I think it very much depends on whether the event is of any personal importance.
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If the prosecution has a witness...his ex.....who testifies she was with him constantly up until May 3rd.....then he disappeared of the face of the earth for a week...then it would be a good idea for him to be able to account for where he was
If he were ever arrested, charged, prosecuted.
Doesn't seem to be much of that going on.
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If he were ever arrested, charged, prosecuted.
Doesn't seem to be much of that going on.
Even then, he doesn't actually need an alibi - it's not an offence not to have one.
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I certainly don't remember where I was when Kennedy was assassinated, nor when Churchill died.
I think it very much depends on whether the event is of any personal importance.
I remember parts of 9/11 because that was hugely significant, 2000+ people dying & the possible threat of further attacks. (1 little girl disappearing just isn't comparable when you have no connection to the child)
I was at work, went to a friends house in the evening. Watched the blanket coverage.
No idea what I was doing in the days before or after.
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It was on the national news quite heavily because the victim was a child.
Within hours of ithe murder occurring was it on rolling news, with the world’s media filling your town? Was it on a Madeleine McCann scale?
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I remember parts of 9/11 because that was hugely significant, 2000+ people dying & the possible threat of further attacks. (1 little girl disappearing just isn't comparable when you have no connection to the child)
I was at work, went to a friends house in the evening. Watched the blanket coverage.
No idea what I was doing in the days before or after.
You’re missing the point entirely. It’s less about the event and more about the scale of the reaction to it and/or how it i pacts on the locale in which you live. If you live in a small town and it suddenly becomes the focus of intense police and media interest that would make it an extraordinary and memorable day wouldn’t it?
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Within hours of ithe murder occurring was it on rolling news, with the world’s media filling your town? Was it on a Madeleine McCann scale?
It didn't make international news but was front page national news the day of the killing & was reported for some time after.
Maybe as a woman you personally were more interested by the McCann case through maternal instincts.
But personally, as a man, I don't give a shit about kids myself.
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I don't suppose Brueckner had a television in his camper van.
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You’re missing the point entirely. It’s less about the event and more about the scale of the reaction to it and/or how it i pacts on the locale in which you live. If you live in a small town and it suddenly becomes the focus of intense police and media interest that would make it an extraordinary and memorable day wouldn’t it?
No.
The national media were all over my local park the day of the killing.
Still not the slightest idea what I did though.
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As an aside, but relevant, is Brueckner fluent in Portuguese ?
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I don't suppose Brueckner had a television in his camper van.
He may not have a watched TV or listened to the radio that day. Or even ventured out of his paedo dungeon.
Social media was in it's infancy & many people didn't have internet access on their phones either.
The images found on Brueckner's memory stick were found post 2007 so, did he even have a computer then either? Especially since he lived like a bit of a vagrant.
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I'm not really interested in what anyone else thinks... I think it's important and that's all that matters... It seems Wolters thinks it is too
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I'm not really interested in what anyone else thinks... I think it's important and that's all that matters... It seems Wolters thinks it is too
I've lost track. What is it that you think is important?
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I'm not really interested in what anyone else thinks... I think it's important and that's all that matters... It seems Wolters thinks it is too
No amount of Wolters thinking is going to secure conviction.
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I certainly don't remember where I was when Kennedy was assassinated, nor when Churchill died.
I think it very much depends on whether the event is of any personal importance.
So you think a young female child missing from about a mile away... Would not be of interest to a convicted paedo..
Knowing the police might come knocking on his door
I think he would have followed the story closely
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So you think a young female child missing from about s milee away... Would not be of interest to a convicted paedo..
Knowing the police might come knocking on his door
Might be a way of life for people like him - 'round up the usual suspects'
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No amount of Wolters thinking is going to secure conviction.
No alibi could be very important.. Like in the Gilroy case... The fact Gilroy could not account for his movements for a whole day was seen as very significant
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No.
The national media were all over my local park the day of the killing.
Still not the slightest idea what I did though.
There’s a programme about mountain climbing on now on BBC2, are you watching?
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There’s a programme about mountain climbing on now on BBC2, are you watching?
My son did the south Downs 100K walk in 24 hrs yesterday..
The Gurkhas do it in 10 hours
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So you think a young female child missing from about a mile away... Would not be of interest to a convicted paedo..
Knowing the police might come knocking on his door
I think he would have followed the story closely
You're assuming he'd even know.
When would he find out?
May 3rd? The day after?
He didn't live next door to the ocean club & unless he saw it on the telly, heard it on the radio or a friend/neighbour told him about it.....
He could have been sat at in his basement by himself masturbating into his faeces all day for all anyone knows.
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There’s a programme about mountain climbing on now on BBC2, are you watching?
No I don't really watch TV anymore. Only ever stream free stuff when I fancy it.
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Local TV & radio would presumable be in Portuguese or maybe English (for the ex-pats).
Is it known if he speaks either language with any degree of fluency ?
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There’s a programme about mountain climbing on now on BBC2, are you watching?
Tom Ballard, died on Nanga Parbat, his mother died on k2 in 1995, her husband used to abuse her, part of why she escaped to the mountains I'd imagine.
She left it late in the season to attempt the summit, Peter Hilary, Sir Edmunds son, saw the weather changing & turned back whilst a group of 7 pushed on (summit fever) they all reached the top, then were killed in the storm on descent.
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You're assuming he'd even know.
When would he find out?
May 3rd? The day after?
He didn't live next door to the ocean club & unless he saw it on the telly, heard it on the radio or a friend/neighbour told him about it.....
He could have been sat at in his basement by himself masturbating into his faeces all day for all anyone knows.
Depends on the testimony of his girlfriend /friends at that time... We know Wolters has been interviewing everyone who knew him around thst time. Perhaps they all remember the date.. And only CB doesnt
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Isn't imagination a wonderful thing ?{)(**
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Isn't imagination a wonderful thing ?{)(**
Imagination... Thinking outside the box... Is how cases are solved...
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Isn't imagination a wonderful thing ?{)(**
I prefer cold, hard sometimes brutal reality myself, which is why I like mountaineering & survival stories.
I have almost no patience for fiction or fantasy.
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And thanks for letting me know VS.
I'll catch it on i-player 8((()*/
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My son did the south Downs 100K walk in 24 hrs yesterday..
The Gurkhas do it in 10 hours
I'm planning on doing the Isle Of Wight Coastal Path in a year or two.
Probably take me 3-4 days though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmvOoTubfso&t=512s
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And thanks for letting me know VS.
I'll catch it on i-player 8((()*/
I watched it. It might not be your cup of tea as it was all a bit emotional and sad. Didn’t see any evidence of the husband/dad being a wife abuser though.
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I watched it. It might not be your cup of tea as it was all a bit emotional and sad. Didn’t see any evidence of the husband/dad being a wife abuser though.
It was in her personal diaries published by her biographer after death
Alison Hargreaves climbed Everest unsupported & died on K2 a few months later, had 2 very young children Tom & Kate with her partner Jim Ballard, they had reported financial difficulties.
According to books I've read she was trying to get famous & wealthy enough through her climbing (attempting 3 8000m peaks in one season without support or 02) that she could afford to leave her husband & take the children with her.
A very complex arrangement considering she couldn't then care for the children the 3-4 months while away on expeditions.
She talked of being torn between wanting the children & wanting K2 (doesn't ever mention wanting her husband much though).
I'm still watching now, it is very sad so far.
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The closest I ever got to mountaineering was a week rock climbing & abseiling then wandering gently up the easy route on Snowdon. I did that 2 years in a row plus climbed a slightly more difficult route on a small mountain named Tryfan, which was actually pretty scary & involved walking along an exposed knife edge ridge with steep drops either side. You likely wouldn't have survived a fall.
I'll never forget it & it was probably why I gave up trying mountains after that.
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It all seems pretty pointless to me, climbing mountains that have already been climbed hundreds of times, risking life and limb and obliging others to risk life and limb to try and rescue you when things go wrong, and when they do go wrong leaving orphans and widows to try and make sense of it all.
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It all seems pretty pointless to me, climbing mountains that have already been climbed hundreds of times, risking life and limb and obliging others to risk life and limb to try and rescue you when things go wrong, and when they do go wrong leaving orphans and widows to try and make sense of it all.
Yep, there's an author Ruth Coffey who's partner died on Everest in 1982, she has written several books about 'Where the mountain casts it's shadow' telling the stories of the children & partners left behind when their loved ones perish whilst pursuing their selfish dreams.
Some of the tales of death on Everest I could tell you, people being told to turn back because they are running out of oxygen or moving too slow, then they completely ignore the order, pushing on & their bodies are now laying there still as grisly land marks.
ETA: And having almost finished the docu it seems Tom Ballard wasn't any different in that he continued his attempt on the mountain when others had judged the conditions too risky & given up.
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My son did the south Downs 100K walk in 24 hrs yesterday..
The Gurkhas do it in 10 hours
Why the rush , is it going to disappear .
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Yep, there's an author Ruth Coffey who's partner died on Everest in 1982, she has written several books about 'Where the mountain casts it's shadow' telling the stories of the children & partners left behind when their loved ones perish whilst pursuing their selfish dreams.
Some of the tales of death on Everest I could tell you, people being told to turn back because they are running out of oxygen or moving too slow, then they completely ignore the order, pushing on & their bodies are now laying there still as grisly land marks.
ETA: And having almost finished the docu it seems Tom Ballard wasn't any different in that he continued his attempt on the mountain when others had judged the conditions too risky & given up.
It seems their brains become altered by spending too much time on the mountain, lack of oxygen maybe makes them more prone to take foolish risks?
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It seems their brains become altered by spending too much time on the mountain, lack of oxygen maybe makes them more prone to take foolish risks?
People spend months & tens of thousands of pounds (about £60-80,000 to attempt everest), & when the summit is within touching distance they are reluctant to give up even when the warning signs are there.
This man's wife got ill near the summit, he left her so he could get to the top, tag the summit & come back down.
By the time he got back to her she had advanced altitude sickness could no longer walk, & she was simply too high up to be dragged down.
The summit was worth more to him than his own wife.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/30/mount-everest-death-maria-strydom-fell-ill-15-minutes-summit
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Could everyone please give me a complete picture of their movements on May 3rd 2007?
I need to know where you went & who you spoke to both on the phone or in person & at what times.
I then need the people you spoke to confirm the time & place of your interactions.
I don't think that's too much to ask, unless you have something to hide.
Scoffing^^^
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Scoffing^^^
^^^
Claimed to have me on ignore.
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^^^
Claimed to have me on ignore.
A scoffer was needed.
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A scoffer was needed.
The scoffer is on ignore but I do have a memory of our previous exchanges and am capable of using the search facility.