UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: misty on January 03, 2022, 12:58:00 PM
-
I was recently advised (on Twitter) that DI Alan Orchard of Leics Police had filmed the dogs' searches in Luz alongside the PJ photographer & Mark Harrison. A SS is attached below, showing a man I originally thought was Harrison in the parents' bedroom (far right on image), but on closer examination I'm not so sure it was. This seems to fly in the face of Harrison's report submitted after the conclusion of the dogs' deployments.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm#mh2836
*snipped*
The search process was then initiated and continued over the following eight days. Throughout and at all locations I acted as an observer and search adviser. The PJ appointed a Chief Inspector as a search manager who was present throughout. Additionally, separate PJ officers were appointed to record and map each search location and provide a contemporaneous video commentary of all search activity undertaken. This system of management and recording was based on my reports recommendation to ensure record accuracy, transparency and facilitate any future clarification of any search activity undertaken. It was also essential that the official management and recording of the search was conducted by the Portuguese Police themselves rather than by British officers without any powers and not conversant with Portuguese law and judicial processes.
We have seen on video Harrison himself using a camera phone during the searches.
Thoughts, anyone?
-
The Portuguese were in charge of officially recording the proceedings for the official investigation. LP could have recorded them also, but their recording would have been unofficial, just for their own records.
-
It does tend to support the idea of Harrison and Grime developing their idea of using alerts as intelligence.
Recorded for posterity. I wonder if Harrison has binned it now.
-
I was recently advised (on Twitter) that DI Alan Orchard of Leics Police had filmed the dogs' searches in Luz alongside the PJ photographer & Mark Harrison. A SS is attached below, showing a man I originally thought was Harrison in the parents' bedroom (far right on image), but on closer examination I'm not so sure it was. This seems to fly in the face of Harrison's report submitted after the conclusion of the dogs' deployments.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm#mh2836
*snipped*
The search process was then initiated and continued over the following eight days. Throughout and at all locations I acted as an observer and search adviser. The PJ appointed a Chief Inspector as a search manager who was present throughout. Additionally, separate PJ officers were appointed to record and map each search location and provide a contemporaneous video commentary of all search activity undertaken. This system of management and recording was based on my reports recommendation to ensure record accuracy, transparency and facilitate any future clarification of any search activity undertaken. It was also essential that the official management and recording of the search was conducted by the Portuguese Police themselves rather than by British officers without any powers and not conversant with Portuguese law and judicial processes.
We have seen on video Harrison himself using a camera phone during the searches.
Thoughts, anyone?
It certainly goes some way to answering my question of where the time and date stamp as noted in the PJ files is.
My criticism of what is described here is that if there are three individuals filming at any given time there is a bit of overkill in progress.- the shots will be taken from three different viewpoints
- filming was in the cramped interior confines of the apartments and the rental villa making it more awkward for three cameras following the action to record at the same time
- there was apparently no long shot showing the official PJ camera and operator in action
It goes nowhere towards providing an explanation as to why Levy's copyright appears on police videos.
-
I can't see Orchard's name on the list of people present at any of the residential searches. Neither can I find details of any DNA sample having been taken from him for cross-checking against samples lifted following the searches.
-
Would you conclude from that that maybe he wasn't there ?
-
Would you conclude from that that maybe he wasn't there ?
Using the facts in the files, I would indeed argue that Orchard wasn't there. However, I can see no reason why someone (seemingly close to Grime) would make such an odd allegation if it wasn't true.
-
Does anyone know if Levy was there? Or did he just collect The Videos and then Edit them to suit himself?
-
I was recently advised (on Twitter) that DI Alan Orchard of Leics Police had filmed the dogs' searches in Luz alongside the PJ photographer & Mark Harrison. A SS is attached below, showing a man I originally thought was Harrison in the parents' bedroom (far right on image), but on closer examination I'm not so sure it was. This seems to fly in the face of Harrison's report submitted after the conclusion of the dogs' deployments.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm#mh2836
*snipped*
The search process was then initiated and continued over the following eight days. Throughout and at all locations I acted as an observer and search adviser. The PJ appointed a Chief Inspector as a search manager who was present throughout. Additionally, separate PJ officers were appointed to record and map each search location and provide a contemporaneous video commentary of all search activity undertaken. This system of management and recording was based on my reports recommendation to ensure record accuracy, transparency and facilitate any future clarification of any search activity undertaken. It was also essential that the official management and recording of the search was conducted by the Portuguese Police themselves rather than by British officers without any powers and not conversant with Portuguese law and judicial processes.
We have seen on video Harrison himself using a camera phone during the searches.
Thoughts, anyone?
TBH, I'd never noticed the guy in that screen-shot. Even if I had, for some reason I had a mental image of Harrison being somewhat older (although I now suspect that I may have been mistaken). The image is a bit fuzzy.
If this tweet is an image of the same person (presumably taken 9 years later), then it may have been Harrison.
https://twitter.com/huwwatkinsipo/status/876774041364963328
-
Using the facts in the files, I would indeed argue that Orchard wasn't there. However, I can see no reason why someone (seemingly close to Grime) would make such an odd allegation if it wasn't true.
No idea who your source is, but there was someone on this board (apparently female) quite some time ago who was also seemingly "close to Grime" but who disappeared into oblivion.
-
I very much doubt that Levy was actually there filming (in what capacity?)
My strong suspicion is that he somehow got hold of the videos, sold on the "juicy" extracts to the Sun, then posted what he'd got hold of on his blog, with his name as "copyright" on them.
I'm aware that some people believe that he edited the videos and reposted them, however, that doesn't correspond to what I was able to check back on. On the other hand, I very much doubt that the videos posted constituted all of the raw footage recorded.
-
Using the facts in the files, I would indeed argue that Orchard wasn't there. However, I can see no reason why someone (seemingly close to Grime) would make such an odd allegation if it wasn't true.
Not a name that I recognize from the files, but it's possible that an LP officer was nearby at that time, without necessarily being privy to the indoor searches.
-
Not a name that I recognize from the files, but it's possible that an LP officer was nearby at that time, without necessarily being privy to the indoor searches.
DI Alan Orchard was yet another of the liaison officers sent to Portugal by Leicestershire Police. It doesn't say who he was liaising with.
-
DI Alan Orchard was yet another of the liaison officers sent to Portugal by Leicestershire Police. It doesn't say who he was liaising with.
Yes, he does seem to have been a liaison officer.
On 30-07-07 a meeting was held with the PJ Director, myself and Leicestershire Police liaison officer DI Alan Orchard, who made relevant notes, to discuss the beach and marine environment at Praia da Luz and set a timeline for the PJ to re-search areas.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
NB: In context, isn't the "PJ Director" referred to Guilhermino Encarnação?
From earlier in that report:
The authors search review terms of reference were set and agreed with the PJ Algarve regional Director Guilhermino Encarnacao...
-
Yes, he does seem to have been a liaison officer.
On 30-07-07 a meeting was held with the PJ Director, myself and Leicestershire Police liaison officer DI Alan Orchard, who made relevant notes, to discuss the beach and marine environment at Praia da Luz and set a timeline for the PJ to re-search areas.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
NB: In context, isn't the "PJ Director" referred to Guilhermino Encarnação?
From earlier in that report:
The authors search review terms of reference were set and agreed with the PJ Algarve regional Director Guilhermino Encarnacao...
Yes. Guilhermino Encarnação, the man in charge of deciding the direction which the investigation took, for which Amaral has been consistently blamed by those who don't understand the command structure of the PJ.
-
Yes. Guilhermino Encarnação, the man in charge of deciding the direction which the investigation took, for which Amaral has been consistently blamed by those who don't understand the command structure of the PJ.
You constantly criticise others.... Perhaps it's you who doesn't understand. The problem was caused because the PJ believed the hype about the dogs.
How could Eddie who had never been wrong in 200 cases ..never given a false alert... suddenly be wrong. That's where the problem lies.
I think Grime should have clarified the situation
-
Yes. Guilhermino Encarnação, the man in charge of deciding the direction which the investigation took, for which Amaral has been consistently blamed by those who don't understand the command structure of the PJ.
Doesn't trip off the tongue in quite the same way, does it?
I don't even know how to pronounce it
-
Yes. Guilhermino Encarnação, the man in charge of deciding the direction which the investigation took, for which Amaral has been consistently blamed by those who don't understand the command structure of the PJ.
Are you suggesting Amaral had no say in which direction the investigation took?
-
You constantly criticise others.... Perhaps it's you who doesn't understand. The problem was caused because the PJ believed the hype about the dogs.
How could Eddie who had never been wrong in 200 cases ..never given a false alert... suddenly be wrong. That's where the problem lies.
I think Grime should have clarified the situation
Off at a tangent again. How about an answer to my actual post, instead of one which seems to have no relationship to it at all? Guilhermino Encarnação (and Luis Neves) were in charge of the investigation, not Goncalo Amaral.
Mark Harrison was quite clear;
"The reconnaissance undertaken and this report has been completed at the direct request and benefit of Guillhemino Encamacao the Algarve Regional Director of the Portuguese Judicial Police"
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
"
-
Off at a tangent again. How about an answer to my actual post, instead of one which seems to have no relationship to it at all? Guilhermino Encarnação (and Luis Neves) were in charge of the investigation, not Goncalo Amaral.
Mark Harrison was quite clear;
"The reconnaissance undertaken and this report has been completed at the direct request and benefit of Guillhemino Encamacao the Algarve Regional Director of the Portuguese Judicial Police"
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
"
If you read your post it talks about who is to blame for the direction the investigation took. I'm explaining imo it was down to the hype Re the dogs.
We all know who was in charge of the investigation. The while of the PJ believed the false hype Re the dogs. I think it's clear that was the real problem
-
Off at a tangent again. How about an answer to my actual post, instead of one which seems to have no relationship to it at all? Guilhermino Encarnação (and Luis Neves) were in charge of the investigation, not Goncalo Amaral.
Mark Harrison was quite clear;
"The reconnaissance undertaken and this report has been completed at the direct request and benefit of Guillhemino Encamacao the Algarve Regional Director of the Portuguese Judicial Police"
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
"
That’s rich coming from you!
-
Are you suggesting Amaral had no say in which direction the investigation took?
I expect his opinions were taken into account.
-
I expect his opinions were taken into account.
Yes and he had a very strong opinion on the subject from Day One didn’t he? That’s if we believe what he says in his book.
-
If you read your post it talks about who is to blame for the direction the investigation took. I'm explaining imo it was down to the hype Re the dogs.
We all know who was in charge of the investigation. The while of the PJ believed the false hype Re the dogs. I think it's clear that was the real problem
How long after she went missing did the dogs turn up? Why did the dogs turn up? Who suggested it?
-
How long after she went missing did the dogs turn up? Why did the dogs turn up? Who suggested it?
I've explained this.. It was part of the Big Experiment.... That after became... The Big Cock Up
-
I've explained this.. It was part of the Big Experiment.... That after became... The Big Cock Up
The point being, the PJ were driven down the 'dog' route as an option proffered by Mark Harrison - no stone unturned and all that. Any police force who subsequently takes up the offer and obtain 'corroborative' or 'incongruent' results derived from the efforts of experts in their field, would react in a similar way - i.e. follow up and divert resources in that direction. It would be remiss not to.
And who recommended Martin Grime?
-
How long after she went missing did the dogs turn up? Why did the dogs turn up? Who suggested it?
I doubt that the PJ knew that Mark Harrison existed, so his involvement must have been suggested by UK police.
-
The point being, the PJ were driven down the 'dog' route as an option proffered by Mark Harrison - no stone unturned and all that. Any police force who subsequently takes up the offer and obtain 'corroborative' or 'incongruent' results derived from the efforts of experts in their field, would react in a similar way - i.e. follow up and divert resources in that direction. It would be remiss not to.
And who recommended Martin Grime?
I totally agree. The problem was Harrison was not recommending a tried and tested strategy... It was his new idea from his out of the box thinking and it backfired.
Harrison did then to to play it down but the damage to the investigation was done. I put a lot of blame on both of them
-
I doubt that the PJ knew that Mark Harrison existed, so his involvement must have been suggested by UK police.
That's what I was driving at. It's easy to state that the PJ went off on a tangent and it turned in to some circus thereafter, but the steer in the dog direction was external. What are they suppose to do with the 'results', dismiss them out of hand?
-
The point being, the PJ were driven down the 'dog' route as an option proffered by Mark Harrison - no stone unturned and all that. Any police force who subsequently takes up the offer and obtain 'corroborative' or 'incongruent' results derived from the efforts of experts in their field, would react in a similar way - i.e. follow up and divert resources in that direction. It would be remiss not to.
And who recommended Martin Grime?
-
I totally agree. The problem was Harrison was not recommending a tried and tested strategy... It was his new idea from his out of the box thinking and it backfired.
Harrison did then to to play it down but the damage to the investigation was done. I put a lot of blame on both of them
But Harrison was, and is, a highly respected expert.
-
But Harrison was, and is, a highly respected expert.
In what?
The point I have made is that it was his new idea to use the alerts ss intelligence... Grime then bigged up the dogs massively.. Claiming no false positive alerts in 200 cases which some read as no false alerts.. Or never wrong.
I can understand why the PJ thought the McCanns were guilty ...
Grime now describes Eddie as an unreliable cadaver dog.
The whole episode was laughable
-
But Harrison was, and is, a highly respected expert.
Not compared with our resident armchair experts 8(0(*
-
The point being, the PJ were driven down the 'dog' route as an option proffered by Mark Harrison - no stone unturned and all that. Any police force who subsequently takes up the offer and obtain 'corroborative' or 'incongruent' results derived from the efforts of experts in their field, would react in a similar way - i.e. follow up and divert resources in that direction. It would be remiss not to.
And who recommended Martin Grime?
You truly don't know a great deal about the interminable dog information which pollutes the forum from one end to another by making an appearance somewhere in each and every thread.
It starts with the refusal of the Portuguese to allow the British dogs access at a time when they could possibly have been of use in May 2007 and ends with the archiving of Madeleine's case. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11103.msg563710#msg563710
You are asking questions which everyone with a smattering of knowledge regarding Madeleine's case already knows or can access easily from the millions of sources available on the internet as a reminder.
I think you are going to have to go some to convince me you are not just being a blatant windupmerchant.
You have started off your posting today with a criticism of the forum - watch out for what you wish for regarding new brooms sweeping clean as in my opinion your present posting style is one which typifies the dumbing down of which you complain.
-
You truly don't know a great deal about the interminable dog information which pollutes the forum from one end to another by making an appearance somewhere in each and every thread.
It starts with the refusal of the Portuguese to allow the British dogs access at a time when they could possibly have been of use in May 2007 and ends with the archiving of Madeleine's case. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11103.msg563710#msg563710
You are asking questions which everyone with a smattering of knowledge regarding Madeleine's case already knows or can access easily from the millions of sources available on the internet as a reminder.
I think you are going to have to go some to convince me you are not just being a blatant windupmerchant.
You have started off your posting today with a criticism of the forum - watch out for what you wish for regarding new brooms sweeping clean as in my opinion your present posting style is one which typifies the dumbing down of which you complain.
According to The Sun "Senior British cops last night urged officers leading the inquiry to accept help from UK dog teams before it is too late." Strange, considering that some people believe that the PJ suspected Madeleine was dead from day one. Why then would they decine this offer allegedly made in May 2007?
I wonder if the "senior UK police source" got it wrong? S/He said "Their tracking skills are among the finest in the world." That doesn't sound like Grime's dogs, who weren't proficient in tracking.
The Sun got it wrong too; "Other British dog-handling teams did join the initial search for Maddie, and local cops later reported that dogs found a scent, but the trail was lost after 250 yards." Those were Portuguese dog-handling teams.
Due to the unnamed source and the confused claims being made, I don't think this story can be relied on as a source.
-
According to The Sun "Senior British cops last night urged officers leading the inquiry to accept help from UK dog teams before it is too late." Strange, considering that some people believe that the PJ suspected Madeleine was dead from day one. Why then would they decine this offer allegedly made in May 2007?
I wonder if the "senior UK police source" got it wrong? S/He said "Their tracking skills are among the finest in the world." That doesn't sound like Grime's dogs, who weren't proficient in tracking.
The Sun got it wrong too; "Other British dog-handling teams did join the initial search for Maddie, and local cops later reported that dogs found a scent, but the trail was lost after 250 yards." Those were Portuguese dog-handling teams.
Due to the unnamed source and the confused claims being made, I don't think this story can be relied on as a source.
Nope ~ definitely EDDIE and KEELA.
We did have this conversation back in 2019 and probably on numerous occasions before and since and it is now so dated that information about it is dropping off the internet mibbee even their own "dogs don't lie" forum - but it can still be found in their own wee corner at Nigel's https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id157.htm
Any way - Misty has brought us a fresh slant on the movie stars - much more refreshing and interesting than rehashing the fact that Eddie and Keela were turned down by the investigation in May 2007 I think.
Although I think had they been allowed in at the appropriate time we very likely would not have had the Levy videos to salivate over and what a shame that would have been.
-
Nope ~ definitely EDDIE and KEELA.
We did have this conversation back in 2019 and probably on numerous occasions before and since and it is now so dated that information about it is dropping off the internet mibbee even their own "dogs don't lie" forum - but it can still be found in their own wee corner at Nigel's https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id157.htm
Any way - Misty has brought us a fresh slant on the movie stars - much more refreshing and interesting than rehashing the fact that Eddie and Keela were turned down by the investigation in May 2007 I think.
Although I think had they been allowed in at the appropriate time we very likely would not have had the Levy videos to salivate over and what a shame that would have been.
Oh yes, Eddie and Keela the tracking dogs lol. If the PJ turned them down it was probably because they had their own dogs to do that job.
-
You truly don't know a great deal about the interminable dog information which pollutes the forum from one end to another by making an appearance somewhere in each and every thread.
It starts with the refusal of the Portuguese to allow the British dogs access at a time when they could possibly have been of use in May 2007 and ends with the archiving of Madeleine's case. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11103.msg563710#msg563710
You are asking questions which everyone with a smattering of knowledge regarding Madeleine's case already knows or can access easily from the millions of sources available on the internet as a reminder.
I think you are going to have to go some to convince me you are not just being a blatant windupmerchant.
You have started off your posting today with a criticism of the forum - watch out for what you wish for regarding new brooms sweeping clean as in my opinion your present posting style is one which typifies the dumbing down of which you complain.
Let's have a go at keeping it on topic just a bit instead of goading and baiting.
-
Oh yes, Eddie and Keela the tracking dogs lol. If the PJ turned them down it was probably because they had their own dogs to do that job.
We know that the Portuguese had dogs of their own who didn't get quite the same write up enjoyed by the free lance Eddie and Keela, but who did an excellent job in what were the circumstances back then in May.
Reading the reports of the performance of the dogs and their handlers leaves questions hanging in the air about the conduct of the investigation.
For example ~ a wee girl goes missing and two dogs acting freely and independently of each other take their handlers through almost exactly the same route to exactly the same destination before losing the scent at exactly the same spot.
That location being a car park.
Now that tells me something. Can you work out what that might be.
Both dogs showed tremendous interest in an empty apartment adjacent to the one the little three year old vanished from ~ yet immediate entry didn't happen! WOW!
Nor was that particular apartment inspected by Eddie and Keela. I wonder why not.
-
Not compared with our resident armchair experts 8(0(*
It seems experts only exist in the minds of sceptics.
The FSS... Who developed LCN DNA... And familial DNA are in scepticis mind a bunch of idiots..
My inclination is to question everything
-
We know that the Portuguese had dogs of their own who didn't get quite the same write up enjoyed by the free lance Eddie and Keela, but who did an excellent job in what were the circumstances back then in May.
Reading the reports of the performance of the dogs and their handlers leaves questions hanging in the air about the conduct of the investigation.
For example ~ a wee girl goes missing and two dogs acting freely and independently of each other take their handlers through almost exactly the same route to exactly the same destination before losing the scent at exactly the same spot.
That location being a car park.
Now that tells me something. Can you work out what that might be.
Both dogs showed tremendous interest in an empty apartment adjacent to the one the little three year old vanished from ~ yet immediate entry didn't happen! WOW!
Nor was that particular apartment inspected by Eddie and Keela. I wonder why not.
In reply to the bolded question I must admit to being quite disinterested in your deductions. I thought the dogs lost the trail at a lamp post near the car park opposite the entrance to the Tapas complex btw.
-
It seems experts only exist in the minds of sceptics.
The FSS... Who developed LCN DNA... And familial DNA are in scepticis mind a bunch of idiots..
My inclination is to question everything
We can only form conclusions to assessments if we have full and accurate information to go on. I think Misty has raised the question in the OP about whether or not we have been given that.
After all that has been in the public domain regarding the filming of Grime's dogs in Luz new questions are still arising.
I have never believed that Levy's recordings were the evidential ones recorded by the PJ. I have to admit though that I find it thoroughly mind boggling to try to visualise three camera people jostling around in the same confined space.
What on earth did they think they were doing.
Now the suggestion that personnel were present who never merited mention before adds to the puzzlement which begs the question of why that should be, if true.
I think you are perfectly correct in viewing information through a sceptical eye which with your scientific background is an informed one as to process. There will always be information going around which we will never be informed about or is on a need to know basis - but isn't it interesting such a trivial claim for the presence of a named individual is only now being raised.
Wonder if it is true.
-
In reply to the bolded question I must admit to being quite disinterested in your deductions. I thought the dogs lost the trail at a lamp post near the car park opposite the entrance to the Tapas complex btw.
Thankyou for that claim of disinterest.
Perhaps as we are a discussion forum the answer lies in, rather than being rude on the public threads, you should adopt the practice of dealing with my posts which disinterest you by doing what you do with my requests.
To that end, I note you have ignored my request of yesterday for a cite supporting a claim made by you despite the extra responsibility you have to the forum regarding making unattributed comment as fact.
-
Yes. Guilhermino Encarnação, the man in charge of deciding the direction which the investigation took, for which Amaral has been consistently blamed by those who don't understand the command structure of the PJ.
I can't work out if Amaral was present at that meeting.
-
I can't work out if Amaral was present at that meeting.
It says it was held in his room but his name isn't mentioned, so who knows? Strange if he wasn't there though.
-
I can't work out if Amaral was present at that meeting.
Whether he was or not, it was Encarnacao who decided which suggested searches were to be carried out.
"On 25-07-07 the PJ Director decided his officers would re-search some of the areas suggested within the report. He also decided the order of their priority. These were the accommodation the McCann’s and their friends have occupied in Praia da Luz, the villa and the grounds occupied by Robert Murat, wasteland that surrounds these locations and any known vehicles the suspect, the McCanns and their friends had access to when Madeleine disappeared."
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm