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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: ferryman on April 11, 2013, 12:05:07 PM
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Even before the files were opened, the (now late) Pamela Fenn went on record to deny saying anything about ever hearing a child crying in the apartment below.
The relevant quote is in the part below the picture of Madeleine:
I will cite it in an edit.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481485/Madeleines-mother-quizzed-Portuguese-police.html#ixzz25DK7w497
Two points are known.
Mrs Fenn wasn't interviewed until several weeks after Madeleine's abduction.
And she was, herself, a victim of a burglary and was interviewed about the crime of which she was a victim.
Sic: Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below.
But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in there."
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Amazing discovery!
Shame about her police statement that pees on your bonfire though:
Witness statement of Pamela Fenn PJ Files
Processo IX, pages 2412 to 2414
Date: 2007/08/20
Time: 15H30
Comes before the Court as a witness.
Being of British nationality and in spite of living in Portugal, does not have knowledge of the Portuguese language in its oral and written form, therefore a police interpreter is present, LIEVE VAN LOOCK.
Thus, according to the facts noted in the files, she says that she has lived in the apartment since 2003, which is located on the upper floor, immediately above the room from which the child disappeared.
She states that on the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22H30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.
Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted "Daddy, Daddy", the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23H45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor.
As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.
Tricky one though - believe the police statement or believe the Daily Mail... hmmm.
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Tricky how?
It's actually the late Mrs Fenn you are accusing of lying.
The Daily Mail article was written about a year before the police files were even released.
So it clearly wasn't made up by the paper that leaks appeared to indicate Mrs Fenn had said something about hearing a child crying.
Why would you rule out that a duplicitous snake in the grass like Pavaia might have corrupted Mrs Fenn's statement?
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Tricky how?
It's actually the late Mrs Fenn you are accusing of lying.
The Daily Mail article was written about a year before the police files were even released.
So it clearly wasn't made up by the paper that leaks appeared to indicate Mrs Fenn had said something about hearing a child crying.
Why would you rule out that a duplicitous snake in the grass like Pavaia might have corrupted Mrs Fenn's statement?
Er... do you want to have another go at that? look at the date of the "daily fail" article and then look at the date of the statement.
Then I think I'd drop this subject if I were you!
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Tricky how?
It's actually the late Mrs Fenn you are accusing of lying.
The Daily Mail article was written about a year before the police files were even released.
So it clearly wasn't made up by the paper that leaks appeared to indicate Mrs Fenn had said something about hearing a child crying.
Why would you rule out that a duplicitous snake in the grass like Pavaia might have corrupted Mrs Fenn's statement?
Er... do you want to have another go at that? look at the date of the "daily fail" article and then look at the date of the statement.
Then I think I'd drop this subject if I were you!
Last updated at 17:39 13 September 2007
Files released August 2008
August 4th if memory serves correctly ...
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Tricky how?
It's actually the late Mrs Fenn you are accusing of lying.
The Daily Mail article was written about a year before the police files were even released.
So it clearly wasn't made up by the paper that leaks appeared to indicate Mrs Fenn had said something about hearing a child crying.
Why would you rule out that a duplicitous snake in the grass like Pavaia might have corrupted Mrs Fenn's statement?
Er... do you want to have another go at that? look at the date of the "daily fail" article and then look at the date of the statement.
Then I think I'd drop this subject if I were you!
Last updated at 17:39 13 September 2007
Files released August 2008
August 4th if memory serves correctly ...
Are you seriously claiming that Pamela Fenn's statement has been retrospectively amended? I just wish to know so I can treat your future posts with a necessary level of scepticism.
You other pros - seriously - are you not prepared to step in at this point and point out the silliness here? Oh I forgot, you only jump on anti-mccann stuff, don't you...?
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To be fair, Mrs Fenn never actually says she heard Madeleine crying in her statement so she is correct in the Mail article when she says it was absolute rubbish that she told the police she heard Madeleine screaming that night. She says she heard a child crying but she could not know with any certainty which child it was.
I concede that point, although I'm pretty sure that wasn't the intention in the initial post. Technically, you're correct. She does insinuate most strongly that the child would have been madeleine due to her perception of the age of the child and location, but of course she doesn't mention her by name.
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To be fair, Mrs Fenn never actually says she heard Madeleine crying in her statement so she is correct in the Mail article when she says it was absolute rubbish that she told the police she heard Madeleine screaming that night. She says she heard a child crying but she could not know with any certainty which child it was.
I concede that point, although I'm pretty sure that wasn't the intention in the initial post. Technically, you're correct. She does insinuate most strongly that the child would have been madeleine due to her perception of the age of the child and location, but of course she doesn't mention her by name.
She says (in her statement to The Mail) that she had no idea family had moved in to the holiday apartment ...
(Sic) "I didn't even know that family was in there."
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To be fair, Mrs Fenn never actually says she heard Madeleine crying in her statement so she is correct in the Mail article when she says it was absolute rubbish that she told the police she heard Madeleine screaming that night. She says she heard a child crying but she could not know with any certainty which child it was.
I concede that point, although I'm pretty sure that wasn't the intention in the initial post. Technically, you're correct. She does insinuate most strongly that the child would have been madeleine due to her perception of the age of the child and location, but of course she doesn't mention her by name.
She says (in her statement to The Mail) that she had no idea family had moved in to the holiday apartment ...
(Sic) "I didn't even know that family was in there."
Well I'm done with you. I don't know about any of the rest of the readers, but someone who ascribes more importance to a press article (the Daily Mail at that) than the official police files is clearly not worth debating with!
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To be fair, Mrs Fenn never actually says she heard Madeleine crying in her statement so she is correct in the Mail article when she says it was absolute rubbish that she told the police she heard Madeleine screaming that night. She says she heard a child crying but she could not know with any certainty which child it was.
I concede that point, although I'm pretty sure that wasn't the intention in the initial post. Technically, you're correct. She does insinuate most strongly that the child would have been madeleine due to her perception of the age of the child and location, but of course she doesn't mention her by name.
She says (in her statement to The Mail) that she had no idea family had moved in to the holiday apartment ...
(Sic) "I didn't even know that family was in there."
Well I'm done with you. I don't know about any of the rest of the readers, but someone who ascribes more importance to a press article (the Daily Mail at that) than the official police files is clearly not worth debating with!
Beware of accusing the late Mrs Fenn of lying.
In Portugal, you can defame the dead ...
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Beware of accusing the late Mrs Fenn of lying.
In Portugal, you can defame the dead ...
Lying!? Based on the Daily Mail report? Oh my word, you're hilarious! 8@??)( @)(++(*
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Hmmm. My understanding coincides with Martha's on this one (I think).
She'd heard a child crying from the floor below, who was not an infant in her opinion, but had never stated that it was Madeleine.
Was the press allegation that she'd stated that it was Madeleine what she was unhappy with?
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What I found most significant in Mrs Fenn's statement was the length of time she heard the crying for ... an hour and 15 minutes
How does that fit in with the McCann's claim that they checked on the children every half hour ?
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What I found most significant in Mrs Fenn's statement was the length of time she heard the crying for ... an hour and 15 minutes
How does that fit in with the McCann's claim that they checked on the children every half hour ?
Lots of unanswered questions... did she hear the same child for that entire time? Was the friend she spoke to ever interviewed to corroborate the date/time? She doesn't mention hearing the bottom gate.
It would have been worth interviewing her again to clarify, I would have thought.
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As I keep saying, there is inadequate information to decide anything.
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Tacked on right at the end of Mrs Fenn's interview (incidentally conducted on 20 August, nearly 4 months after Madeleine's abduction) is a little-quoted part, about the entirely separate crime of which Mrs Fenn was, herself, a victim:
When questioned she [Mrs Fenn] said that she never saw any strange person or action before or after the event. She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.
Is it standard police practice to roll separate and unrelated incidents into a single interview?
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Tacked on right at the end of Mrs Fenn's interview (incidentally conducted on 20 August, nearly 4 months after Madeleine's abduction) is a little-quoted part, about the entirely separate crime of which Mrs Fenn was, herself, a victim:
When questioned she [Mrs Fenn] said that she never saw any strange person or action before or after the event. She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.
Is it standard police practice to roll separate and unrelated incidents into a single interview?
No idea. Did she report it? If so, who would she have reported it to? The GNR? If so, were any kind of forensic tests taken? If so, did this feed into the PJ analysis? If so, what were the results?
Ditto for the other reported burglaries in the vicinity.
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Hmmm. My understanding coincides with Martha's on this one (I think).
She'd heard a child crying from the floor below, who was not an infant in her opinion, but had never stated that it was Madeleine.
Was the press allegation that she'd stated that it was Madeleine what she was unhappy with?
What Mrs Fenn said is that she hadn't talked to the press and as the case was under judicial secrecy at the time it was indeed wise for her to state this publically.
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Tacked on right at the end of Mrs Fenn's interview (incidentally conducted on 20 August, nearly 4 months after Madeleine's abduction) is a little-quoted part, about the entirely separate crime of which Mrs Fenn was, herself, a victim:
When questioned she [Mrs Fenn] said that she never saw any strange person or action before or after the event. She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.
Is it standard police practice to roll separate and unrelated incidents into a single interview?
No idea. Did she report it? If so, who would she have reported it to? The GNR? If so, were any kind of forensic tests taken? If so, did this feed into the PJ analysis? If so, what were the results?
Ditto for the other reported burglaries in the vicinity.
Yes, she reported it. This was reported on 18 August:
In a new development, a British expat has come forward with dramatic new evidence.
Pamela Fenn said a man broke into her flat above the McCanns' holiday apartment in Praia da Luz, on the Algarve, just weeks before Madeleine disappeared.
There was no sign of a break-in and it is thought the intruder may have had a key.
Mrs Fenn, who is in her 70s, found the man scrambling out of the window and tried to grab his ankle. But he escaped.
She reported the incident to Portuguese police but they did not question her again.
The information only resurfaced after British police reviewed the case two weeks ago. Mrs Fenn will now be formally interviewed for the first time on Monday.
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Hmmm. My understanding coincides with Martha's on this one (I think).
She'd heard a child crying from the floor below, who was not an infant in her opinion, but had never stated that it was Madeleine.
Was the press allegation that she'd stated that it was Madeleine what she was unhappy with?
What Mrs Fenn said is that she hadn't talked to the press and as the case was under judicial secrecy at the time it was indeed wise for her to state this publically.
Mrs Fenn said she had no clue a family had moved in to the holiday apartment.
And she spoke to the press to say it.
That's why they reported what she said ...
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Hmmm. My understanding coincides with Martha's on this one (I think).
She'd heard a child crying from the floor below, who was not an infant in her opinion, but had never stated that it was Madeleine.
Was the press allegation that she'd stated that it was Madeleine what she was unhappy with?
What Mrs Fenn said is that she hadn't talked to the press and as the case was under judicial secrecy at the time it was indeed wise for her to state this publically.
Mrs Fenn said she had no clue a family had moved in to the holiday apartment.
And she spoke to the press to say it.
That's why they reported what she said ...
As I pointed out earlier, what she actually said to the paper was that she had no idea that THAT family had moved into the apartment below her, meaning the McCanns. She must've realised there was someone staying there because it is from there that she claimed she heard the child crying.
That's how I understood it as well, Martha. In the context.
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It is semantic sophistry to suggest Mrs Fenn might have meant a family had moved in, but not that family ...
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It is semantic sophistry to suggest Mrs Fenn might have meant a family had moved in, but not that family ...
Not necessarily.
What was the press saying at the time?
What was she objecting to?
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I happen to agree with Martha on this point.
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Hmmm. My understanding coincides with Martha's on this one (I think).
She'd heard a child crying from the floor below, who was not an infant in her opinion, but had never stated that it was Madeleine.
Was the press allegation that she'd stated that it was Madeleine what she was unhappy with?
That's how I understand it. Remember on some documentary how abruptly she shuts her door to some journalist. Mrs Fenn was a discreet and fair person, she hated gossip and this is why I wish I hadn't read Kate McCann's unpleasant comment in "Madeleine".
Now I'm really amazed somebody gives credit to a tabloid ! Sometimes right, sometimes wrong, how will you know without losing time ?
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Hmmm. My understanding coincides with Martha's on this one (I think).
She'd heard a child crying from the floor below, who was not an infant in her opinion, but had never stated that it was Madeleine.
Was the press allegation that she'd stated that it was Madeleine what she was unhappy with?
That's how I understand it. Remember on some documentary how abruptly she shuts her door to some journalist. Mrs Fenn was a discreet and fair person, she hated gossip and this is why I wish I hadn't read Kate McCann's unpleasant
comment in "Madeleine".
Now I'm really amazed somebody gives credit to a tabloid ! Sometimes right, sometimes wrong, how will you know without losing time ?
Mrs Fenn's denial is on camera so there really should be no question regarding what she said.
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Hmmm. My understanding coincides with Martha's on this one (I think).
She'd heard a child crying from the floor below, who was not an infant in her opinion, but had never stated that it was Madeleine.
Was the press allegation that she'd stated that it was Madeleine what she was unhappy with?
That's how I understand it. Remember on some documentary how abruptly she shuts her door to some journalist. Mrs Fenn was a discreet and fair person, she hated gossip and this is why I wish I hadn't read Kate McCann's unpleasant comment in "Madeleine".
Now I'm really amazed somebody gives credit to a tabloid ! Sometimes right, sometimes wrong, how will you know without losing time ?
Aside from that, what do you think about the idea that she could have been re-interviewed to clear up some details?
I find some loose ends.
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Ferryman, surely you can see the difference in meaning between these two sentences?
"I didn't even know that family was in there."
"I didn't even know a family was in there".
Mrs Fenn said the former statement according to the Mail, but you have attributed the latter statement to her.
If she knew a family was in there, it would defy logic or common sense for her to issue a denial about knowing the exact identity of the family she knew was in there.
She was (expecting to be) interviewed about the crime of which she was victim and which she reported.
In the rendering we read on line, that crime gets a mention (just) right at the end of an interview that purports to be about Madeleine ...
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Ferryman, surely you can see the difference in meaning between these two sentences?
"I didn't even know that family was in there."
"I didn't even know a family was in there".
Mrs Fenn said the former statement according to the Mail, but you have attributed the latter statement to her.
If she knew a family was in there, it would defy logic or common sense for her to issue a denial about knowing the exact identity of the family she knew was in there.
She was (expecting to be) interviewed about the crime of which she was victim and which she reported.
In the rendering we read on line, that crime gets a mention (just) right at the end of an interview that purports to be about Madeleine ...
I'm not sure I'm following.
I'd agree that she was not happy about being a subject of media interest.
Hardly surprising as she lived just above.
On a more mundane issue, why was she not interviewed until 20 August?
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I'm not sure I'm following.
Follow what?
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I'm not sure I'm following.
Follow what?
If she knew a family was in there, it would defy logic or common sense for her to issue a denial about knowing the exact identity of the family she knew was in there.
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I'm not sure I'm following.
Follow what?
If she knew a family was in there, it would defy logic or common sense for her to issue a denial about knowing the exact identity of the family she knew was in there.
I knew a famiily was in there, but I didn't know that family was in there
Explain the logic of that.
ETA: Mrs Fenn's statement makes much more sense interpreted as: I didn't know the (particularly holiday!) apartment was occupied.
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Isn't the real point of debate here the fact that Mrs Fenn heard a child crying ( who became increasingly distressed ) in the McCanns' apartment for an hour and a quarter ?
Isn't that what is significant, given that it blows away the McCann's claim that they checked on their children every half hour ?
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Isn't the real point of debate here the fact that Mrs Fenn heard a child crying ( who became increasingly distressed ) in the McCanns' apartment for an hour and a quarter ?
Isn't that what is significant, given that it blows away the McCann's claim that they checked on their children every half hour ?
Note that the McCanns blow away Mrs Fenn's statement in denying any cry on the 1st of May but quoting Madeleine about crying on the 2nd. Though Rachael, on the other side of the wall, didn't hear any crying. Though Mrs Fenn was out on the 2nd at night.
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Isn't the real point of debate here the fact that Mrs Fenn heard a child crying ( who became increasingly distressed ) in the McCanns' apartment for an hour and a quarter ?
Isn't that what is significant, given that it blows away the McCann's claim that they checked on their children every half hour ?
No.
The real point of debate is whether Mrs Fenn actually uttered the words attributed to her.
She denies that she did ...
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Isn't the real point of debate here the fact that Mrs Fenn heard a child crying ( who became increasingly distressed ) in the McCanns' apartment for an hour and a quarter ?
Isn't that what is significant, given that it blows away the McCann's claim that they checked on their children every half hour ?
No.
The real point of debate is whether Mrs Fenn actually uttered the words attributed to her.
She denies that she did ...
What are you saying ... that Mrs Fenn's police statement was forged ?
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Isn't the real point of debate here the fact that Mrs Fenn heard a child crying ( who became increasingly distressed ) in the McCanns' apartment for an hour and a quarter ?
Isn't that what is significant, given that it blows away the McCann's claim that they checked on their children every half hour ?
No.
The real point of debate is whether Mrs Fenn actually uttered the words attributed to her.
She denies that she did ...
What are you saying ... that Mrs Fenn's police statement was forged ?
Icabodcrane, I'm afraid there's no hope.
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Wasn't there another child belonging to parents within the tapas 9 group ill at that time? Couldn't it have been it crying? 8-)(--)
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Bump for those interested
Mrs Fenns statement clearly speaks on several occasions of the family living under her that week
It is untrue at best to say that she told reporters she did not know the flat was occupied
8((()*/
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
P.D.L RESIDENT
2412 to 2415 Witness Statement of Pamela Isobel Fenn 2007.08.20
09-Processo 9 Pages 2412 to 2415
TRANSLATION BY INES
09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2412
09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2413
09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2414
09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2415
Mrs Pamela Fenn 20 August 2007
Mrs Fenns statement, taken in Praia da Luz on the 20th of August 2007:
Included in the files as a witness statement.
Being of British nationality and in spite of living in Portugal, does not have knowledge of the Portuguese language in its oral and written form, therefore a police interpreter is present, UEVE VAN LOOCK. Thus, according to the facts noted in the files, she says that she has lived in the apartment since 2003, which is located on the upper floor, immediately above the room from which the child disappeared.
She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor.
As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying. That night she contacted a friend called EDNA GLYN, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23.00, telling her about the situation, who was not surprised at the childs crying. She did not have anything to report for the 2nd May, because she was only home at night.
On the 3rd May she received a visit from her niece Carole during the morning, who said that when she was on her terrace she saw a male individual looking into the McCanns apartment, situation which has been told to the police, her family member even made a photo fit. During the day nothing unusual happened, until almost 22.30 when, being alone again, she heard the hysterical shouts from a female person, calling out "we have let her down" which she repeated several times, quite upset. Mrs Fenn then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who was shouting furiously. Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to Gerry from her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios. At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30.
She said that after the mothers shouts, she had seen many people in the streets looking for the girl. She also refers to an episode when Gerry was speaking to a policeman and he refused to recognised the police force, saying that more agents of authority were needed to carry out the search. When asked, she replied that on 3rd May she did not hear any noise from the McCann apartment, not even the opening of doors. She also said that before hearing the shouts she was watching television, as she often stays up late.
When questioned, she said that she never heard any arguments between the couple or with their children. She said that the family would spend much time outside of the apartment and therefore she did not notice their presence. She said that until that night she had never spoken to the McCann's, because up until the 3rd May, she only sometimes saw them walking in the street. She never saw them with any vehicle. She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering.
When questioned she said that she never saw any strange person or action before or after the event. She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.
Having read and approved the statement, she signs, together with the interpreter.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
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Ferryman, surely you can see the difference in meaning between these two sentences?
"I didn't even know that family was in there."
"I didn't even know a family was in there".
Mrs Fenn said the former statement according to the Mail, but you have attributed the latter statement to her.
If she knew a family was in there, it would defy logic or common sense for her to issue a denial about knowing the exact identity of the family she knew was in there.
She was (expecting to be) interviewed about the crime of which she was victim and which she reported.
In the rendering we read on line, that crime gets a mention (just) right at the end of an interview that purports to be about Madeleine ...
If the quote attributed to her by the Daily Mail supposedly came from that short video clip that was broadcast on PT TV then they appear to have completely misquoted her anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFHbkbBh5BM
Yeah, I wonder who did her statement? And why would she say, it sounded like Madeleine, in her statement?
I also wonder where her first one went, as she was said to have made. Odd that disappeared.
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Ferryman, surely you can see the difference in meaning between these two sentences?
"I didn't even know that family was in there."
"I didn't even know a family was in there".
Mrs Fenn said the former statement according to the Mail, but you have attributed the latter statement to her.
If she knew a family was in there, it would defy logic or common sense for her to issue a denial about knowing the exact identity of the family she knew was in there.
She was (expecting to be) interviewed about the crime of which she was victim and which she reported.
In the rendering we read on line, that crime gets a mention (just) right at the end of an interview that purports to be about Madeleine ...
If the quote attributed to her by the Daily Mail supposedly came from that short video clip that was broadcast on PT TV then they appear to have completely misquoted her anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFHbkbBh5BM
Yeah, I wonder who did her statement? And why would she say, it sounded like Madeleine, in her statement?
I also wonder where her first one went, as she was said to have made. Odd that disappeared.
I can't find where she is supposed to have said that. She happened to live in the flat above the one from which the child disappeared.
She said that she'd heard a child crying from the floor below hers and she didn't think that the voice was that of a baby under two years old. Strange turn of phrase, was she presented with the term "infant"?
The floor below could be any one of the flats below hers. If ever her hearing was accurate.
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If she was able to hear the patio doors open when the parents arrived back it was obviously the apartment directly beneath hers ie the McCanns at 5a.
Those patio door can squeak quite a lot so that in itself is interesting. Another reason why the abductor didn't enter the apartment by that means on the 3rd May.
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If she was able to hear the patio doors open when the parents arrived back it was obviously the apartment directly beneath hers ie the McCanns at 5a.
Those patio door can squeak quite a lot so that in itself is interesting. Another reason why the abductor didn't enter the apartment by that means on the 3rd May.
I've never worked out why she didn't notice - or wasn't asked about - the gate. Wouldn't that have squeaked?
She could just as easily have heard someone opening or shutting the patio doors for whatever reason and assumed that they'd just come in.
No one seems to have asked her where she was standing / sitting during this time... so many questions.
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The floor below could be any one of the flats below hers. If ever her hearing was accurate.
*****
Well the floor below her was either the Mccanns or the Oldfields, the next one along was empty, the next one along was the OBriens, however hard of hearing she was, she heard a child crying, how much FURTHER along the block do you think she MIGHT have heard this but attributed it to the flat DIRECTLY below her? 5 doors, 6 doors? More?
Do look at the picture here posted 24 sept 6.49 pm showing Mrs Fenns flat marked G, and the Mccanns at A, Oldfields at B and Obriens at D, so whose child was crying?
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic179-10.htm
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Witness statement of Pamela Fenn PJ Files
Processo IX, pages 2412 to 2414
Date: 2007/08/20
Time: 15H30
Comes before the Court as a witness.
She also said that she never told the McCANN's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering.
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Quote marks got mixed up.
For DCI, re your previous comment:
Ok. Sounds likely dodgy interpreting /note-taking. She didn't know the child in question, so how could she have distinguished her voice amongst others from the floor below? Or even alongside or above her? The direction of sound is often misleading in blocks of flats built even in the early 90s.
Maybe it was Madeleine she heard... but I have a question mark by that one.
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Seeing as the OPs post was to discredit the idea that Mrs Fenn gave a statement to the police about a child cryng and has been proven wrong, is there any point to this thread any more?
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Seeing as the OPs post was to discredit the idea that Mrs Fenn gave a statement to the police about a child cryng and has been proven wrong, is there any point to this thread any more?
Disproved where?
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Seeing as the OPs post was to discredit the idea that Mrs Fenn gave a statement to the police about a child cryng and has been proven wrong, is there any point to this thread any more?
Disproved where?
IN HER STATEMENT, do read it without PREJUDICE
If you want to argue Mrs Fenn never made a statement to the police in DETAIL about a child crying and about seeing the family that week,you will have to do miles better than quoting a sentence out of a rag and your own desires for it to be not true for SOME reason, sheesh, I think we are done here
Edited
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Even in modern flats, it's very difficult to localize a sound inside. Sometimes I hear my downstairs neighbour's son as if he were upstairs, in my penthouse.
But there was no child above Mrs Fenn's flat.
Mr and Mrs Oldfield's child was a baby and Mr and Mrs O'Brian's daughters were pretty far. Both the O and the OB entered the flat by the main door.
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Seeing as the OPs post was to discredit the idea that Mrs Fenn gave a statement to the police about a child cryng and has been proven wrong, is there any point to this thread any more?
Disproved where?
IN HER STATEMENT, do read it without PREJUDICE
Without prejudice means reserving the right to withdraw?
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Without prejudice means reserving the right to withdraw?
It doesnt matter what it means, you have no argument here, zero, zilch, never have and never will, give it up
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Here is a good view of the two apartments. Mrs Fenns shown lit and showing the location of the ground apartment patio door.
(http://i.imgur.com/L5qgFDk.jpg)
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Here is a good view of the two apartments. Mrs Fenns shown lit and showing the location of the ground apartment patio door.
(http://i.imgur.com/L5qgFDk.jpg)
Nice photo.
I'm not aware of side gates that don't make a noise. How come she never mentioned it (or wasn't asked)?
Any neighbour could have been opening / closing a patio sliding door in their living room.
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Here is a good view of the two apartments. Mrs Fenns shown lit and showing the location of the ground apartment patio door.
(http://i.imgur.com/L5qgFDk.jpg)
Nice photo.
I'm not aware of side gates that don't make a noise. How come she never mentioned it (or wasn't asked)?
Any neighbour could have been opening / closing a patio sliding door in their living room.
How far? ive already said the Obriens were four doors down, could the child she heard she was sure was right under her and the patio doors be five doors down. I hardly thnk so, do you?
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Seeing as the OPs post was to discredit the idea that Mrs Fenn gave a statement to the police about a child cryng and has been proven wrong, is there any point to this thread any more?
Has it really?
Witness Statement
Date: 2007/05/16
Paolo Jorge Carvaihosa da Costa
Occupation: GNR Officer
He has been a GNR officer since 1996. He is a soldier and works at the Lagos GNR post.
On 3rd May when he was at home, he was contacted by the GNR post commander who asked him to go to P da L.
He arrived at the OC at 00.05 on 4th May having contacted his colleague Nelson Costa who informed him about the situation.
After having been informed ha began to search the perimeter of the tourist complex. First he revised the perimeter alone and was later accompanied by Officer Pimentel. During his time on the scene he did not talk to anyone.
Neither did he enter the apartment from which Madeleine had disappeared. There many people at the scene but nobody particularly drew his attention.
When asked he said that he never saw Robert Murat in all the times he visited the scene.
He does remember however, that on a day he cannot recall, an individual who identified himself as Robert, saying that he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ, phoned the Lagos post saying:
That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.
No more is said. Reads, ratifies, signs.
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In an apartment near to the women... which women? In which apartment block? On which date? Where are these women's statements?
Was this an outcome of Jenny's stand?
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In an apartment near to the women... which women? In which apartment block? On which date? Where are these women's statements?
Was this an outcome of Jenny's stand?
It was Mrs Fenn, ringing Murat, or so he say's. Who else has said a child was crying?
telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.
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In an apartment near to the women... which women? In which apartment block? On which date? Where are these women's statements?
Was this an outcome of Jenny's stand?
It was Mrs Fenn, ringing Murat, or so he say's. Who else has said a child was crying?
telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.
Dunno. Who are the "women" (plural) who had already been interviewed?
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In an apartment near to the women... which women? In which apartment block? On which date? Where are these women's statements?
Was this an outcome of Jenny's stand?
It was Mrs Fenn, ringing Murat, or so he say's. Who else has said a child was crying?
telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.
Dunno. Who are the "women" (plural) who had already been interviewed?
Spelling mistake I would say. Nothing new there. I presume the foreign woman is Mrs Fenn. She isn't Portuguese, is she?
The only other foreign woman is the locality is Jenny Murat.
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In an apartment near to the women... which women? In which apartment block? On which date? Where are these women's statements?
Was this an outcome of Jenny's stand?
It was Mrs Fenn, ringing Murat, or so he say's. Who else has said a child was crying?
telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.
Dunno. Who are the "women" (plural) who had already been interviewed?
Spelling mistake I would say. Nothing new there. I presume the foreign woman is Mrs Fenn. She isn't Portuguese, is she?
The only other foreign woman is the locality is Jenny Murat.
Sorry? The ONLY other foreign woman in PdL is Jenny????
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In an apartment near to the women... which women? In which apartment block? On which date? Where are these women's statements?
Was this an outcome of Jenny's stand?
It was Mrs Fenn, ringing Murat, or so he say's. Who else has said a child was crying?
telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.
Dunno. Who are the "women" (plural) who had already been interviewed?
Spelling mistake I would say. Nothing new there. I presume the foreign woman is Mrs Fenn. She isn't Portuguese, is she?
The only other foreign woman is the locality is Jenny Murat.
Sorry? The ONLY other foreign woman in PdL is Jenny????
Sorry Carana, but Murat said, near to them, so isn't that the locality?
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Sorry Carana, but Murat said, near to them, so isn't that the locality?
Near to where the women had heard children crying was how I understood that. Could mean anything.
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In an apartment near to the women... which women? In which apartment block? On which date? Where are these women's statements?
Was this an outcome of Jenny's stand?
It was Mrs Fenn, ringing Murat, or so he say's. Who else has said a child was crying?
telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.
Dunno. Who are the "women" (plural) who had already been interviewed?
It couldn't be Mrs Fenn - she hadn't been interviewed by 16th May (Date of statement).
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Dunno. Who are the "women" (plural) who had already been interviewed?
It couldn't be Mrs Fenn - she hadn't been interviewed by 16th May (Date of statement).
Not according to Murat, Benice.
He does remember however, that on a day he cannot recall, an individual who identified himself as Robert, saying that he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ, phoned the Lagos post saying:
That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.
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Not according to Murat, Benice.
He does remember however, that on a day he cannot recall, an individual who identified himself as Robert, saying that he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ, phoned the Lagos post saying:
That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.
Near to WHOM? The missing child, where the women in question were staying, the Murats?
Something odd about this.
Where are the statements about this?
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Near to WHOM? The missing child, where the women in question were staying, the Murats?
Something odd about this.
Where are the statements about this?
No idea, Carana
Something odd alright.
Statement from GNR as above. There is not one other statement that says anything about a child crying. If you can find one, then I'll eat my hat.
I don't believe Mrs Fenn said any such thing, to be honest. Good that she couldn't understand or read Portuguese, don't you think. So who's lying. IMO, she was set up.
Murat translated some statements but not Mrs Fenn's.
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No idea, Carana
Something odd alright.
Statement from GNR as above. There is not one other statement that says anything about a child crying. If you can find one, then I'll eat my hat.
I don't believe Mrs Fenn said any such thing, to be honest. Good that she couldn't understand or read Portuguese, don't you think. So who's lying. IMO, she was set up.
Murat translated some statements but not Mrs Fenn's.
So. Murat passed on info to the GNR and it was never followed up? That's how it sounds to me at the moment.
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So. Murat passed on info to the GNR and it was never followed up? That's how it sounds to me at the moment.
Not so sure, Carana.
Why would he say "he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ"? He lived there.
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Proven wrong where?
Very obviously by the time Mrs Fenn was interviewed, she was in no doubt the McCann family had been in the holiday apartment
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What I found most significant in Mrs Fenn's statement was the length of time she heard the crying for ... an hour and 15 minutes
How does that fit in with the McCann's claim that they checked on the children every half hour ?
It was never clarified who the child was, nor even whether it was just one child during that time. She really should have been reinterviewed, her friend interviewed to verify the date and time, and a sound reconstruction done.
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Proven wrong where?
Very obviously by the time Mrs Fenn was interviewed, she was in no doubt the McCann family had been in the holiday apartment
Well I suppose her SEEING and HEARING them in May is something which is very much pre post August and totally relevant as opposed to anything else at all and certainly nothing to do with some strange campaign of yours to make out she thought the flat below hers was unoccupied at the time, she certainly did NOT, how many times does it have to be stated, dogs and bones? Again? Oh yes, but do carry on in futile postings on the subject for whatever your strange agenda is in this case
Do read her statement again FM, its very very clear meanwhile I will leave you to waste your time and others on this pointless subject
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What I found most significant in Mrs Fenn's statement was the length of time she heard the crying for ... an hour and 15 minutes
How does that fit in with the McCann's claim that they checked on the children every half hour ?
It was never clarified who the child was, nor even whether it was just one child during that time. She really should have been reinterviewed, her friend interviewed to verify the date and time, and a sound reconstruction done.
Was Mrs Fenn's friend Evilyn Glynn interviewed?
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What I found most significant in Mrs Fenn's statement was the length of time she heard the crying for ... an hour and 15 minutes
How does that fit in with the McCann's claim that they checked on the children every half hour ?
Can you honestly see a woman of Mrs Fenn's age, ignoring a child crying for that length of time?
I can't!
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Quote from: icabodcrane on April 11, 2013, 03:20:09 PM
What I found most significant in Mrs Fenn's statement was the length of time she heard the crying for ... an hour and 15 minutes
How does that fit in with the McCann's claim that they checked on the children every half hour ?
*** or any of their friends IF the crying came from next door to the Mccanns or two doors down after that! Seems one or other or more of them didnt do checks and also those that said they did checks for others didnt hear it either!!!
if a child directly below the mccanns apartment was crying for over an hour I think its fair to say no one was checking on the kids and if they did the kid cried again after they left
And if mrs fenn heard the doors at 11.45 she would have heard them earlier
Edited
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Quote from: icabodcrane on April 11, 2013, 03:20:09 PM
What I found most significant in Mrs Fenn's statement was the length of time she heard the crying for ... an hour and 15 minutes
How does that fit in with the McCann's claim that they checked on the children every half hour ?
*** or any of their friends IF the crying came from next door to the Mccanns or two doors down after that!
fair comment
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What I found most significant in Mrs Fenn's statement was the length of time she heard the crying for ... an hour and 15 minutes
How does that fit in with the McCann's claim that they checked on the children every half hour ?
It was never clarified who the child was, nor even whether it was just one child during that time. She really should have been reinterviewed, her friend interviewed to verify the date and time, and a sound reconstruction done.
Was Mrs Fenn's friend Evilyn Glynn interviewed?
I think its Edna Glynn, Ferryman. She wasn't interviewed.
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shes probably dead too
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Why was Mrs Fenn never interviewed a second time?
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Why was Mrs Fenn never interviewed a second time?
Her first interview, according to the files, wasn't done till 3 months later. So what hope was there?
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Why was Mrs Fenn never interviewed a second time?
Her first interview, according to the files, wasn't done till 3 months later. So what hope was there?
And originally was specifically billed as being about the crime she was a victim of.
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Doeant really matter when she was interviewed as long as poster stop lying about her testimony
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shes probably dead too
Why probably ?
May be she was just called on the phone informally (they were informal interviews, we have proofs of that), confirmed and farewell.
Mrs Fenn was very clear she wasn't home on Wednesday night. No reason to doubt her. Especially because if such a long crying occurred, Rachael on the other side of the wall, sick, would have heard.
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Doeant really matter when she was interviewed as long as poster stop lying about her testimony
???
You find that a potentially crucial witness, who lived above a crime scene, wasn't interviewed until four months later "doesn't really matter"?
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Carana, do you think Mrs Fenn was aware she was a crucial witness or aware she wasn't ?
When she says she didn't want to add pain to Madeleine's parents telling about the crying episode, I find it very plausible and delicate. She knew she'd to tell it, if interviewed, and preferred to stay back stage. The police possibly thought that being an old lady it wasn't worthwhile to interview her. Besides the police were investigating an abduction, not a drama on the ground floor.
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police possibly thought that being an old lady it wasn't worthwhile to interview her.
What an obnoxious remark! Just because one is elderly doesn't mean they are automatically senile!
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police possibly thought that being an old lady it wasn't worthwhile to interview her.
What an obnoxious remark! Just because one is elderly doesn't mean they are automatically senile!
Did I say that ? If you had read, instead of interpreting obnoxiously my post, you'd see I find Mrs Fenn a delicate and smart person. Very desirable qualities..
The police may judge it's not worthwhile to bother an old lady who either is aware she has something useful to say or isn't, then no use.
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Carana, do you think Mrs Fenn was aware she was a crucial witness or aware she wasn't ?
When she says she didn't want to add pain to Madeleine's parents telling about the crying episode, I find it very plausible and delicate. She knew she'd to tell it, if interviewed, and preferred to stay back stage. The police possibly thought that being an old lady it wasn't worthwhile to interview her. Besides the police were investigating an abduction, not a drama on the ground floor.
She may not have thought she was. However, living just above, the police should have considered her as a potentially crucial one.
She had been burgled a short time before and was quite probably aware of other burglaries.
I don't understand this bit Anne: Besides the police were investigating an abduction, not a drama on the ground floor.
In any scenario (from a burglary gone wrong, to a major domestic dispute that went wrong), she should have been interviewed straight away. And reinterviewed with a reconstruction to verify the source of sound. And her friend should have been interviewed to verify the date and time.
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police possibly thought that being an old lady it wasn't worthwhile to interview her.
What an obnoxious remark! Just because one is elderly doesn't mean they are automatically senile!
Did I say that ? If you had read, instead of interpreting obnoxiously my post, you'd see I find Mrs Fenn a delicate and smart person. Very desirable qualities..
The police may judge it's not worthwhile to bother an old lady who either is aware she has something useful to say or isn't, then no use.
Yes, you did say that, and yes, it was obnoxious. And old or not, Mrs Fenn should have been one of the very first people interviewed, given where she lived. That the PJ left it so long to interview her is yet another example of the incompetence of the initial investigation.
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But, Carana, the friend was called on the 1st of May ! You don't think the abductor could have entered in the flat on that day, do you ?
On the 3rd, Mrs Fenn heard nothing, nothing before she switched off TV at 10:30. She tells a story, Mrs McCann tells another one... Who knows ? But when Mrs Fenn says she didn't want to hurt the McCanns, I "feel" it's true. When she says she was worried with the crying and called a friend who calmed her down, I understand her, or rather them. Hearing a child crying is a thing, hearing someone saying a child cries another one.
Finally, I meant with "they were then investigating an abduction" that the police interviewed Mrs Fenn when the case took another turn, after Eddie alerted in the flat (which was suggesting a drama).
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police possibly thought that being an old lady it wasn't worthwhile to interview her.
What an obnoxious remark! Just because one is elderly doesn't mean they are automatically senile!
Did I say that ? If you had read, instead of interpreting obnoxiously my post, you'd see I find Mrs Fenn a delicate and smart person. Very desirable qualities..
The police may judge it's not worthwhile to bother an old lady who either is aware she has something useful to say or isn't, then no use.
Yes, you did say that, and yes, it was obnoxious. And old or not, Mrs Fenn should have been one of the very first people interviewed, given where she lived. That the PJ left it so long to interview her is yet another example of the incompetence of the initial investigation.
Carol Tremner, Mrs Fenn's niece, testifies that Mrs Fenn was mentally very astute ...